#1375 - Edward Norton

[0] We go.

[1] I always know the conversation is going to get off to a good start when I meet a fellow Lenny Bruce fan.

[2] And I, you know, there's that line in Fight Club, the things you own end up owning you.

[3] And I generally am not a stuff guy.

[4] But when I came in here, I did find myself going, this is the right kind of place to keep stuff.

[5] Yeah.

[6] And I've been wandering around looking at things.

[7] And that was my favorite thing that I saw you have that a couple of them.

[8] of great Lenny Bruce posters, one of which I've never seen.

[9] Which one?

[10] The one with his, where he, it's really wild.

[11] He looks like an Indian guru or something staring into the middle distance.

[12] That's, that's an amazing to photograph for him.

[13] Yeah, I kind of bought as much vintage Lenny Bruce stuff as I could find.

[14] This place has sort of evolved into a semi -gallery.

[15] You know, it's, I would like to have a house with nothing in it and then have this place just filled with shit.

[16] No, I kind of agree.

[17] Also, I think that it's fun when you have people come through a space so that you're actually like sharing the things like it's sort of like you're letting and someone come in and wander.

[18] Some of the best museums in the world are people's individual curation.

[19] Some of the best art collections ever made are better than any museum because they're put together by someone and you're finding like the threads and things.

[20] Yes.

[21] So I think when you can assemble like things that have meant something to you but you can put them in a space where other people can bump into them, it's better than just like than letting them just collect dust in your own home where you stop looking at them you have a very unusual perspective for someone who makes their living as an actor why do you mean why do you think so you're a very thoughtful person very thoughtful I know a lot of thoughtful actors I do too I do too but it's not common you got to find them you got to curate those folks yeah it's a funny it's a funny it's a funny gig by like by definition it's like if you think about all the like the yin -yang in it the paradoxes in it it's like on the one hand with guys as actors there'll be a lot of um you know there's a certain kind of uh not not macho but there's like you know men will look to play intense roles and these things but what you're doing is like it's it's you're playing dress up like you know So you're like, and I always like, I always like the Dorothy Parker, the famous New York writer, said scratch an actor, you'll find an actress.

[22] I think it's the greatest line.

[23] It's not, and it's not how it sounds just to be a little, you know, like, that's not a knock on actresses.

[24] No, no, no. But that's the real truth of the whole thing is like we put on makeup, we put on clothes, we play dress up, and we pretend to be other people.

[25] And it's like, it really is like, you know, when people are like, you know, sometimes my brother and sister will laugh.

[26] Because I've done these certain things that have a certain kind of iconic intensity or whatever, right?

[27] And they look at me and they're like, are you kidding?

[28] Like, you've ever seen the size of his ankles?

[29] They're like, my brother's like, he's such a twerk.

[30] Like he's such a, my brother's like two inches bigger than me and 30 pounds bigger and way stronger, you know, my little brother.

[31] and it's always like he's a theater nerd he's not like tough they're like don't buy the Hulk yeah no but um or American American History Acts yeah I do I do think there's there's sometimes there's a it's really funny the way there's a posture in it sometimes there's like a public facing posture that some people who are in this trade this weird thing will adopt and it's like it's like hey man And I hate to tell you, but like, you don't have to live into some – you don't have to live into – I sometimes feel like people are compensating for the fact that what they do, in fact, is play dress -up.

[32] Right.

[33] Do you think it's also that they have to kind of project this image to ensure that they get more of these tough guy roles?

[34] Maybe.

[35] Maybe.

[36] I don't know.

[37] I don't know.

[38] I think – or maybe it's like that's – who they wanted to be maybe in a weird way they're living into some some people i think they they relish the opportunity to change the story of who they are you know what i mean they're they're they're getting to through through getting well known they're getting this chance to sort of like wipe the slate of whatever it is they were getting away from and they're getting to you know the the chance to sort of create a create a persona that they're happier with than what before, you know?

[39] Right, like what they wish they always were.

[40] Yeah.

[41] And their darkest times.

[42] Yeah, or or you know yeah, there's, there's I also think there's a funny thing which is there's this history of famous actors, right?

[43] So and it I do think it sort of begins with Brando because Brando had such an enormous effect on the psychology of men in America.

[44] He really, he really like, and if you look at what I would call like the great generation of American actors the Dustin Hoffman Robert DeVore Robert Duval Gene Hackman Al Pacino Morgan Freeman Merrill Streep like this you know the whole that's all like the post Brando generation all of those people literally all of them wanted to become actors because of Marlon Brando and and he he so rewrote the idea of what it was what it could be that you had got a whole it was like what Bob Dylan did in the culture it was like it rewrote like it just rewrote the game or like what Lenny did with comedy yeah absolutely Lenny Bruce and there and there are these people who come and they have they have like a kind of a permanent they're a permanent before and after in a certain kind of field you know what I mean Hendrix with the guitar yeah yeah Yes, I would say so.

[45] I would say so.

[46] In rock guitar, yeah.

[47] Although it is interesting when you go back and look at rock in that era, there's that famous story of, I think, of, I don't remember if it's like Pete Townsend, making Eric Clapton come with him to hear Hendrix and Clapton crying.

[48] Yes.

[49] You know, about it.

[50] Yeah, I heard that story.

[51] But you can't, but you also can't discount a Clapton in, you know, there's those famous photos of the wall Clapton is God.

[52] like there's it's hard to like you can't really underrate what clapton did to guitar and guitar you know in that era too right no he was phenomenal but it was a different thing it was a different thing yeah timmy hendricks was a protean he seemed like he broke through to a new dimension yeah i agree yeah i agree Are you a Gary Clark Jr. fan?

[53] No, I can't.

[54] Gary Clark Jr. is a phenomenal blues guitarist.

[55] Okay.

[56] And he has a sound that's almost instantaneously recognizable as Gary Clark Jr. You hear him and you go, oh, my God, there it is.

[57] Like, everyone who works with them is just like, they just walk away sweating, just going, Jesus Christ.

[58] Wow.

[59] It's phenomenal.

[60] I feel that way about Willie Nelson.

[61] I think Willie Nelson is legitimately in country music, like there's before and after Willie Nelson.

[62] And you can say that he, you know, that Hank Williams Jr. Or whatever that he, but Willie Nelson to me is the hinge around which it goes from being something that had you know, it had a Nashville kind of grand old opery kind of polished to it.

[63] And he basically took it, he reclaimed it as this like American roots thing and put jazz in it.

[64] That's what's so crazy is anyone who plays music knows like Willie Nelson is essentially a jazz guitar player.

[65] And he's, you know, red -headed stranger is, to me, that's a before and after kind of a thing, too.

[66] Like, there's that whole outlaw thing.

[67] And I think there's a whole lot of, it's almost like after that there's two camps.

[68] There's still going to be like the, you know, the Steve Earl in his Copperhead Road thing is more the posh thing.

[69] But then there's like Steve Earl roots, Steve Earl, you know what I mean?

[70] And it's like he almost like straddled it.

[71] But my point about Brando was just that like he, he changed the idea of the type of person that male actors wanted to be.

[72] They want suddenly it was like they wanted to have like a patina or a repute as a visceral.

[73] They wanted to be visceral, not polished.

[74] They wanted to be muscular.

[75] They wanted to be masculine.

[76] They wanted to be, you know, intense.

[77] Like, those were not the kind of words that people, when you think back on, like, Jimmy Stewart, Carrie Grant, like, that is not what movie stars were aspiring to, they were aspiring to polish a kind of a polish before Brando.

[78] There was an authenticity, right?

[79] Yeah.

[80] There's something to his performances where you go, oh, well, this is more like real.

[81] life than a fit like on the waterfront like the I could have been a contender thing yeah like when he's doing that you're like well this is how someone would actually behave if they felt like their life had been a disaster and it could have been avoided well you just hit on something though that it drives me nuts because when people sort of talk about brando they're like you know there's sort of the like the Stanley Kowalski um the the brutal masculinity it's such a the thing about Brando is he is beautiful he's in he's kind of this enormous Roman looking guy but it's it where he kills where he really kills is this kind of broken sensitivity that he had and and I could have been a contender is not a tough guy speech right it's the opposite it's a broken tough guy it's a guy practically crying saying like you were my you were my brother and you should have looked out for me I needed you looking out for me and my life is my life's on down the toilet because of that in that moment you didn't look out for me. It's like tearful.

[82] It's not and even the best moment of Stanley Kowalski and streetcar is really it's like when he falls on his knees in front of his wife and cries.

[83] You know what I mean?

[84] It's like that's what he was way better in in a lot of ways to me it's the fact that he was actually kind of in touch with his emotional life.

[85] It's not that he was right so macho at all it's that he he looked that way but he was but he actually had this like poetic sensitivity yes and it was it resonated real like it felt real yeah and if you watch actors before him there was a certain undeniable theatrical element to what they were doing that was like oh this guy's acting yeah whereas he was he seemed like a guy who was really really living the scene.

[86] Yeah.

[87] And some of it, sometimes I think it sounds like to say the instrument of a person, but he has this crazy, he looks the way he looks, but he's got this marble -mouthed.

[88] He's not articulate.

[89] He doesn't come off as, like, there's a mushyness to the way he speaks and kind of a, yeah, it doesn't have style.

[90] You know, the guys before that, it was you felt they were working on their style yeah and and he seemed to be sort of like scratching his ribs and and mumbling and and um you know in a t -shirt and he just was he was kind of present in the moment i think it was all accentuated by the way he ended his life like the end of his life he was enormous yeah gigantic fat guy and he just just given in to all of his vices and he was just this guy.

[91] He was a beautiful man. Yeah.

[92] He just didn't seem to give a fuck about that at all.

[93] Yeah, I think he said something to me one time about how much he was enjoying his life when he was like 23.

[94] And he's like, you know, even when he was doing the play streetcar that made him famous, he was telling me like he would get with his pal Diego and go up to Harlem, go to clubs and hit on girls and all these things.

[95] And I said, you weren't aware of what was going on.

[96] you know and he goes well there was I was aware of a certain amount of noise rising and then one day I woke up and I was sitting on a pile of candy that's what he and um and I thought what a really wild way to say it and I do think I'm not even joking to me it's like what you said it was like after that they were just it was like there was no boundaries he was like they gave he was getting every everything was he he wasn't going to be able to resist He wasn't disciplined.

[97] He wasn't a super disciplined person.

[98] He was a very poetic person, and I don't think he was disciplined, and I think that a lot of what happened, you know, he had something like 17 children, and he got, you know, he had appetites, and he had these things, and I think that, I do think that he, you know, struggled to deal with all the things that came with being that famous.

[99] Yeah.

[100] And being that famous when there wasn't really a lot of examples of how to do it right or wrong before you.

[101] Yeah.

[102] That's sort of the Elvis thing, right?

[103] Yeah, it's the Elvis thing.

[104] The flip is like Dylan, who I still find myself, like when you watch the new Scorsese, have you seen that thing, Rolling Thunder?

[105] It's really worth watching that.

[106] Or the original Scorsese talk about him, one no direction home like here's this guy he's like in his early 20s and they're coming at him with all this like voice you generation all this stuff and he's like that's nothing I can relate to man you know and he's and he's going like I can't help wondering if Lenny Bruce loved Dylan he I don't know that but I would think that Lenny Bruce was tuned in to Dylan because Dylan's thing was like don't ask me what it means man I wrote it I you know I don't know what it means what What do you think it means?

[107] He was just constantly going, buzz off, man. I'm not picking it apart for you.

[108] I'm not going to pick it apart for you.

[109] I'm not going to buy into this stuff you're putting at me. And how did he have, he was 20, 20, 21 years old.

[110] Like who resists, who resists people falling all over them to call them great when they're that age?

[111] Nobody.

[112] Nobody has that kind of like, sensibility to go, everything you're bringing at me is going to be bad.

[113] for me and I it's like watch the if you watch those interviews with him when he's that age it's pretty astonishing because to your point like you're like a thoughtful act whatever I look at him and I'm like nobody has that discipline at that age yeah it's amazing how uniquely qualified he was for that position at that point in time and that very strange tumultuous time in history as well and not only that right at the moment that like Joni Baez brings him out on the stage at the Newport Folk Festival and basically goes, this is the prince, this is, I anoint you.

[114] He's the one.

[115] He's Neo.

[116] He's the, he is the one.

[117] And the next year, he doesn't even take one year to go, to go, let me just, let me just lean into your love.

[118] The next year he comes with an electric guitar and plugs it in at the Newport Folk Festival.

[119] And people start screaming in agony, like going, what are you doing?

[120] Like, you're Bob Dylan, you're the king of folk you can't plug in a guitar and people are like running to try to cut his chords with an axe in this thing like that's how much of a betrayal and he's like there's people yelling traitor at him and he's going I don't believe you you know I think you're a liar like and he's turning around to Robbie Robertson and go and play it loud I mean the guy is so punk rock wow he's so totally punk rock he he was as punk rock as anybody ever I think he probably had to be just to resist what they were trying to box him into yeah and by but there's never been anybody who was more like, oh, you like what I'm doing?

[121] I'm gone.

[122] I'm over here.

[123] Like, enjoy.

[124] You're going to not like it because you like what I just did.

[125] Now where I'm going, you're going to be discombobulated and upset.

[126] And eventually you're going to catch up.

[127] And then when you catch up, I'm going to move on to something else.

[128] Like, it's really, it really is amazing.

[129] It's amazing.

[130] Because how many people do you know in any of the things we all do who get a taste of a thing and don't like lean into it for a while, right?

[131] Right.

[132] Like, who don't kind of go, well, this feels good.

[133] You know, maybe I'll just hang out right here.

[134] And, well, it's always weird when you see somebody lean into something and it's not really them and they become what people want of them.

[135] You know, and, like, a great example in comedy was Kinnison.

[136] Kinnison, when he made it, everyone he wanted to lay these gigantic lines of Coke for him, apparently.

[137] They're like, oh, it's him, it's him, he's here.

[138] Chop, chop, chop, chop.

[139] They just laid some giant line of cooking.

[140] He would joke around about it.

[141] Like, I had to do it.

[142] And, you know, he would do, you know, a giant line.

[143] Yeah, I can't have a fucking heart attack.

[144] Right.

[145] I can't not live into the thing because then then they'll stop trusting it.

[146] But you become a caricature.

[147] You become this thing.

[148] Like dice clay is another example.

[149] Like dice clay used to be that used to be one part of his act.

[150] His name is Andrew Silverstein.

[151] So he would do his act.

[152] And then the dice man was a character that he would do.

[153] But people loved it.

[154] it so much when he would do that character that the character became his whole act and then he became the character where you see him in real life he's wearing like weightlifting gloves and you know he's walking around a gold's gym t -shirt he became that guy he's hilarious still but he's that guy now like he's kind of out the backside of that when you say in in what way well now he's like acting in things he does do that and act well yeah but he still does the same kind of stand -up really if you go see him it's still hilarious irreverent, just complete, like not of this era.

[155] Well, let me ask you a question because I think it's interesting I think in that vein like if you look at Howard Stern who I've met only a couple times but I had, I found him to be like an extremely, extremely thoughtful guy like and I don't mean that and he just was very really smart.

[156] I mean that's again, but he's also like I don't know, the conversation, we have mutual friends, and I, and I, and I, um, and I really enjoyed talking to him.

[157] Like, I thought, like, oh, there's nothing tricky about him at all.

[158] He's really, like, down in his shoes.

[159] He's interested.

[160] He actually asks questions.

[161] I mean, some people you meet and you're just like, oh my God, they're talking in a mirror.

[162] You're, you're a mirror and they're just looking at themselves while they speak to you.

[163] They're waiting for you to get done talking so they talk.

[164] Yeah.

[165] But he, um, but I think, what I think is really interesting is like, So Howard, imagine the pressure, because I grew up in the Baltimore area, he was on D .C. radio.

[166] He was on D .C. 101.

[167] I remember that the shock of him, literally.

[168] And imagine, you know, the pull to deliver on what you've built, which was obviously, you know, a huge audience that wanted this thing.

[169] To me, it's really interesting and impressive.

[170] that Howard's kind of, and I'm saying it, like I know him, I don't know him, but watching it, to me, this idea that he's kind of said, hey, look, I, you know, I'm going to be honest about where I'm at.

[171] And in some measure, I'm going to say, there's things I've done, I regret.

[172] There's ways I've treated certain people in the interest of the show that I'm kind of done with that.

[173] I don't really want to be that guy.

[174] And in some measure, you know, he's kind of, saying to his audience, like, you got to deal with me where I am now.

[175] You know what I mean?

[176] Now, it's not like there's like a huge risk in that because his audience is gigantic, right?

[177] Well, it's also, he's so successful and so universally praised as being the most important figure in the history of radio.

[178] Like, there's no one who does, like, what I do, podcasts.

[179] It does no a gigantic debt of gratitude to Howard Stern, the fact that, you know, he was getting fined by the FCC.

[180] I mean, they were hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[181] he kept getting fired from radio stations.

[182] We kept doing the way he did it and it changed the way people do talk radio.

[183] Honestly, the fact that we can even, the fact that we've talked as long as we've talked up to now is a function of him proving that there was a tolerance for long form, basically.

[184] You know what I mean?

[185] I mean, it's like people knock on Netflix or whatever.

[186] I'm like, anything, there's an amazing thing going on in the world right now which is people are, people are, re -reproving or reconnecting with the fact that for all of what goes on on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all this bullshit like the truth is people people like and have the appetite for and their brains enjoy longer form conversations yes and longer form stories more than than it was assumed they did you know what I mean and like popular culture feeds us a lot of fast food and Xanax in like a speedball of you can't handle anything.

[187] You don't want anything more than literally like a little bit of junk food with a little bit of Xanax because you just want to lie on your couch and watch someone else save the world.

[188] I know that's all you want, but that is not true.

[189] And I think like, you know, you look at things like from peeky blinders to Chernobyl to like the Ken Burns Civil War series.

[190] Like we're going through this thing where people are realizing like, no. That's not actually true.

[191] People actually like you, my file Dax, you know, Shepard, who's got a great radio show, people like to listen to people have actual conversations.

[192] Well, they're also listening.

[193] It's a new way of ingesting entertainment.

[194] Like you're getting it in your car, you're getting it in your ears when you're at the gym, where you're on the subway or a bus or a plane.

[195] And it's, you're getting the stimulating long form conversation.

[196] that maybe people didn't even know they wanted, you know?

[197] Yeah, I agree.

[198] I agree.

[199] Everybody loves a great conversation with someone.

[200] So it's like you get to have that conversation without participating.

[201] Right, right.

[202] And Stern definitely was like, we were talking about before and after, like, I had there was talk radio, but that, but it kind of starts there.

[203] I think you started to be like, I can listen to this guy for a long time.

[204] Yeah, he broke through the membrane.

[205] Like we're talking about Hendricks entering into a new dimension of sounds.

[206] he broke through the membrane of talk radio and what he's doing now is well now he's a man in his 60s who's extremely wealthy and he has some I'm sure some regrets as you were talking about the things that he's done in the past and said in the past and he's also like this is who he is now he's not going to pretend that he just wants to bring strippers in and have them ride the city in every day and when people get upset that he's changed well I hope you change too man I hope everybody changes no that's what I mean I admire I mean true It's true.

[207] It's not quite Dylan when he's 24 and being anointed, plugging in a guitar.

[208] But I do think it's when people sort of go, hey, I'm going to be where I am.

[209] Yes.

[210] And you've got to deal with it.

[211] Right.

[212] That's positive, I think.

[213] Well, it's definitely better than leaning into it and being what people want you to be and then be struggling with that and tortured by that.

[214] I actually think most of the most of people who, I think that, mostly ends up badly.

[215] Yes.

[216] Yes.

[217] Yeah, I think whenever you don't go with whoever you actually are and whenever you don't acknowledge that whoever you actually are has changed.

[218] You know, if you're growing and learning and having these epiphanies and these realizations about yourself and where you fit into your own life and how you've interacted with people in your life, you're not making adjustments and you're only doing it that way because you think that's what people expect of you.

[219] You're a prisoner to your own first incarnation.

[220] Yeah.

[221] You know, the first that people saw and that was Kinnison and he's kind of a prisoner to that forever yeah and acknowledged it yeah it's why anybody who any it's not even act to anybody anybody who who keeps doing interesting things through phases is even more impressive yeah that's what also is it hard as an actor too if you get an iconic role and then you are sort of always remembered for being that guy in that thing like how much of a is it a hard transition to go from an iconic role to going into your next role what people still want to talk about the the big movie that you were in just a year or two ago um it's never that hasn't been a big thing for me I um I think uh I take I tend to take a bit of time between things.

[222] And also, I don't know, when I, you know, like the first thing I did kind of popped off pretty hot.

[223] And then everyone's like sending me like, you know, psychotic.

[224] Psychotic interesting characters.

[225] I was like, well, I think I'll do a musical with Woody Allen.

[226] You know what I mean?

[227] And wear a plaid jacket and do a dance number.

[228] And Harry Winston's like just.

[229] Switch it up.

[230] Yeah, or, and then what's really weird is I did that.

[231] I did, I played this lawyer, I played a young lawyer in the Larry Flint film, right?

[232] Which, and off of that, I got this distinct vibe of like, hey, the next John Grisham movie is, like, the way you were talking in court in that movie, you would kill in this John Grisham thing as the young lawyer or whatever.

[233] And I remember I met Francis Coppola was going to direct the Rainmaker, this Grisham thing, and I was up for it.

[234] I didn't get it.

[235] Matt Damon got it.

[236] And I didn't do some ballsy thing and, like, say, that's not for me. I was like, I was like Francis Coppola.

[237] I was like, I want this, you know.

[238] But when I was talking to him about it and thinking to myself a little bit like, this seems a little square, but it's like Francis Coppola, you know what I mean?

[239] And it's like, and he, when I was talking to him about it, he was like, well, what, you know, what are you what are you working on?

[240] What are you interested in?

[241] And I was telling him about my friend David who had written this Americanist GX and that we were working on that.

[242] I was kind of telling him what we were trying to do with it and how we wanted to make it is this kind of like guerrilla, you know, thing.

[243] And he was like, you should do that.

[244] You should do that immediately.

[245] and I was like, well, I was like, don't, don't, I was like, don't, I was like, don't cancel, don't, you know, I still want to do this with you.

[246] He's like, no, no, I think you should do, like, the way you're talking about that.

[247] And he said, if you do that now, they'll never, they'll never know what to do with you.

[248] Like, they'll never, they'll never be able to put you in a box, kind of, because that's just, you know, if you pull that off.

[249] And I kind of was like, you know, it, I did have an.

[250] agent at the time.

[251] It was really old school, really funny, and he was kind of like, he didn't understand that.

[252] He was like, he was like, find something big, let's find something big, big director, big film, big franchise, whatever.

[253] And I remember thinking like, no, I think I'm going to do this.

[254] And we knocked that off.

[255] And the funny thing is you say, well, is that become a trap?

[256] That wasn't a trap.

[257] That was like a liberation.

[258] It's almost like doing that part.

[259] It was like a permanent hand grenade on, it was like, it was like, it was.

[260] It was like, well, we never know what to expect now.

[261] Right.

[262] So it becomes like liberation at a certain point because, like, I weigh 150.

[263] You know, like, I'm not big.

[264] So, like, once you do something like that, it's sort of like, hmm, this guy's, this guy's kinky.

[265] What the hell are we going to do with him?

[266] You know what I mean?

[267] Right.

[268] And then it's just sort of like you get to decide for yourself in a way.

[269] That's brilliant.

[270] Yeah, like Robert Downey Jr. As amazing as he is, it's always going to be Iron Man. Like that sometimes you get one of those roles, you know, like Thor, Chris Helmsworth.

[271] He's fucking Thor, dude, you're Thor forever.

[272] You know, you flirted with that.

[273] It depends on how, and I think it depends on how many of them you do.

[274] But when you did The Hulk, were you worried about that?

[275] A little bit.

[276] Was there any hesitation?

[277] Because I was surprised when you did that.

[278] I was like, this is an interesting choice.

[279] As is evident, I got more worried about it.

[280] you know i i i was i was very interested because i loved it i i'm not like snobby about i loved those like comics and i i subscribed to them yeah i subscribed to hulk i um all the darker stuff like dark night frank miller sure the whole all of it was really you know it was um it was it was it was something i really latched on to and And I love the Bill Bixby Hulk.

[281] Like, he's it for me. He's always, for anyone our age, like, he's, you know, him walking away at the end of the show.

[282] Yeah.

[283] That's it.

[284] And I, so, yeah, no, I thought, I tend to get, just the way I felt about American History X, I actually thought American History X was sort of like Othello or Macbeth.

[285] I thought it was, that's what I said to David.

[286] He had written this kind of edgy thing with the drug plot in it.

[287] And I was like, I think you strip all that away, and you literally just make this about rage, destroying a person who's got a lot in him.

[288] It's like a Shakespearean tragedy, but it's just it's skinheads, you know.

[289] And that really lit David up, and that's where we went with that, right?

[290] But Hulk is like the – it's Prometheus, right?

[291] The guy who steals fire from the gods for people, but he gets burned doing it and is cursed, right?

[292] He's trying to take like the power of nature back out to people from the gods and he gets burned.

[293] And that's how I thought about it.

[294] I was like, if we could do something like that that leans into this guy who thinks he's going for something good that's going to help humanity.

[295] And he cracks open like the backside of God and take something out that is not meant to be taken out.

[296] And now he's cursed.

[297] Like cursed.

[298] you know that that's what was amazing even as silly as the show was on some levels Bill Bixby was cursed like that's what and the end of every show you were like oh my god he's still cursed like alone in the world and cursed right and there's something pretty pretty heavy in that like pretty cool in that and uh and so so it was it wasn't um you know I thought it was like really worth a crack I fucking loved it how did that seem come to play where you were with Hicks and Gracie?

[299] Oh, because I, because I was, I studied Aikido when I was in college.

[300] I was studying Aikido, and then when I was studying Aikido, Hoyst Gracie won the, you know, that was, went into a fighting championship.

[301] That was like the late 80s, right?

[302] 1993.

[303] 93, okay.

[304] Close.

[305] Yeah, so he, right.

[306] So, but he, I became aware, oh, no, that's it.

[307] That you're right.

[308] You're right, because I was in New York.

[309] I was studying Aikido in New York, and Hoyst Gracie won that first UFC.

[310] And like I said, I'm, I'm six feet tall, but I literally, if I'm in shape, I weigh like 155, right?

[311] And Hoyce, when he won that, was like, like, six feet and under 180, right?

[312] Yep.

[313] And I remember, it melted everybody's mind.

[314] Yeah.

[315] I mean, it melted everybody's mind.

[316] And I, so I became interested in them.

[317] And what they were doing, honestly, do you know that, you know, in the story, in that Nat family's whole crazy story about being, you know, they were Scottish, the grandfather was Scottish, right?

[318] And he was like a consular, he was a customs, he was a customs official in Brazil.

[319] and because he had a good relationship with the Japanese consul and helped was very generous in helping Japanese people get their papers to come through and in the Japanese consul I think the story is who knew Aikido and Jiu -Jitsu offered to like teach his sons Yeah it was Count Maeda right yeah who came to he came to Brazil and taught Carlos and Horian and Hillio.

[320] Well, mostly Ilios.

[321] Who are the fathers of the Hoyt -Hixen generation, right?

[322] And then Ilya's oldest son, I think Horian was the oldest son.

[323] He's the one who created the ultimate fighting championship.

[324] But Hickson, the reason why it was so significant that you had him is that was the champion of the family.

[325] Like, undeniably, undisputed everyone.

[326] Everyone throughout Jiu -Jitsu.

[327] It's very, very rare that one figure is universally recognized as being the superior product of Jiu -Jitsu, and that was Hickson.

[328] Yeah, you always, if you followed that stuff at all, you kind of heard that breakdown of it.

[329] Yeah.

[330] I thought a part of the story, I think Hickson told me when we were in Rio, I think what he said to me was that the reason Gracie Jiu -Jitsu became its particular derivation and its particular kind of things that allowed Hoyce to.

[331] do so well was because their father was smaller than his brothers.

[332] That's Ilya.

[333] And they were all bigger and because he was smaller he adapted he adapted the style to work for a smaller person against a bigger person obviously and then that kind of like reached its its pinnacle with Hoyce winning that tournament which which this gets down in the weeds for people who aren't into this stuff but the but it was I mean, that was, you talk about these things, the cracking through moment, right?

[334] Yes.

[335] That was a cracking through moment.

[336] It was like, wait a minute, a guy, his size, just literally won in all form, all -size tournament.

[337] Like, how is that possible?

[338] You know what I mean?

[339] And it was like, it was like jaw hits floor.

[340] And to me, what was really interesting was I was really little all the way until literally the end of high school.

[341] I was very small.

[342] I grew a lot in my, like, when I was like 17.

[343] But I was really interested in Japan, and I was interested in martial arts, and, you know, James Clavel's Shogun, like, not, you know.

[344] And I would take, I took, like, a karate class, and it scared me. People, if they were bigger and faster, it was just scary.

[345] If you were little, it was like, I can't, it doesn't matter if I can do these combos or whatever.

[346] In truth, I'm terrified of anybody bigger than me, and I don't feel that this is teaching me anything that I would have.

[347] the confidence to use to defend myself, right?

[348] That's how I felt as a kid.

[349] And when I bumped into Aikido, it completely changed my mind.

[350] The guy, there was an incredible teacher in New Haven when I was in college, and he was small.

[351] He was like, you know, maybe smaller than Hoyt's Gracie or whatever.

[352] And the guy was unbelievably, like, potent, like just one of the most potent teachers in anything I ever had.

[353] I was riveted by this guy.

[354] And it kind of started to make me believe that with grappling and locking, which there's a lot of, there's a lot of jiu -jitsu in Aikido.

[355] And I was sort of like, I was fascinated.

[356] I started feeling like this makes me feel like I, it's not like kicking someone's ass at all.

[357] It's just more like I feel more empowered.

[358] I feel, I feel able to handle an authentic situation.

[359] which is mentally empowering more than like I want to get into scraps and it was just kind of amazing it's like having a secret in a way like whoa there's a secret to a much smaller person being able to lever a much bigger person and then that thing happened with the Gracie's and it was sort of like the whole thing cracked open it was like this it was like proof in a way and if you were interested in that stuff it was an incredible moment but because my interest in that for years when we went to Rio, and I had been working on the script of that movie and stuff, and I was like, I was really interested in this idea that Banner is, is desperate for control, right?

[360] That he desperately, desperately needs to control his heart rate, his breathing, that it's a massive liability in his mind if he can't control his emotions and his adrenaline.

[361] And I was like, well, who in the world and I had seen the videos of Hicks I'd never met him or any of them but I'd seen the videos of him doing the amazing stuff with his stomach yeah the yoga yeah and the breathing and I was like and I just was like we have to and everyone was like who's that I was like I was like Philistines you're all Philistines like I was like and I was like find me Hicks and Gracie and ask him if he'll do a scene with me in the movie being the guy who's training banner to like calm himself and he was there and he did it with us and it was like I was like yeah there it is right here yeah yeah when I saw this in the movie I was like oh fuck yeah like what a smart move yeah and I was like yeah see I got I forgot this holy crap I haven't looked at this in a long time he's look how charismatic he is too I mean the guy the guy could have been like Charles Bronson 100 % a movie star did you ever ever see Choke, the documentary?

[362] Yeah.

[363] One of the greatest documentaries in history.

[364] It's like pumping iron.

[365] Yeah, absolutely for martial arts.

[366] And it details Hickson's journeys to Japan to fight in Japan Valley Tudau, which was around 94, which is right after his brother had won the ultimate fighting championship.

[367] And the story was that if his brother lost, Hickson was going in.

[368] Like the idea was, well, bring in hoist because it's more impressive.

[369] He's a smaller man. He's not physically imposing.

[370] Whereas Hickson in that video there, he's.

[371] He was older.

[372] When he was young, he was, you know, very fit, and it was big into yoga and physical fitness, and he had the strongest body of all the grace.

[373] He's like he looked very formidable, whereas Hoyce looked unassuming, and it was more of an advertisement of Jiu -Jitsu, if Hoyce could beat everybody, and Hoyce wound up doing.

[374] But if, at any reason, if they needed to bring in the big gun, it was going to be Hickson.

[375] And Hoyce always talked about it, like Hickson could tap him left and right, and everybody was like, that doesn't even make sense.

[376] Hoist is the ultimate fighting champion He's the guy But his brother would just run right through him He would run right through everybody He would have a line of black belts And they would all wait for their turn to get tapped And they would roll with Hickson And he would just dismantle everybody People that thought they understood Jiu -Jitsu It's so There's so many levels and layers to Jiu -Jitsu That even though it looks like What is the difference This guy's doing an arm bar You're doing an arm bar There's specifics in the intricate aspects of the positions that Hickson understood that they just didn't understand.

[377] And then on top of that, he had much greater control of his body because of his yoga background.

[378] I mean, he became obsessed with yoga.

[379] And breathing.

[380] Yeah, some breathing, and something called Gymnastica Naturalo, which was like a style of movement that was sort of like vinyasa yoga with all these flowing postures, but also with a bunch of like almost like animal movements to it too.

[381] And it was a very physically demanding thing.

[382] And he became outstanding at that.

[383] that as well.

[384] But it's, people don't, from the outside, when you start talking about things like jujitsu and ultimate fighting, you think of like as brutal, violent, but it's an intellectual pursuit and it's a spiritual pursuit because to be the person that can overcome all of the obstacles, you have to have incredible control of your emotions and your thought processes and your understanding of who you are.

[385] And that, I think, is one of the things that separated Hickson from everybody.

[386] I do too.

[387] I also think that, I think that people don't realize that a lot of stress, a lot of aggression, it's like aggression actually is like paired with stress usually.

[388] You know what I mean?

[389] It's hard to be aggressive, super aggressive without a little bit of like adrenaline pumping and stress and all these things.

[390] And the truth is like there's so much of the training, if you're actually training this stuff, what you're training yourself to do is be calm.

[391] And that's like totally counterintuitive because people think, no, you got to go in there like Rocky and, you know, want to win.

[392] And it's like, well, in a fighting, in a competition, sure, on some level, but really, really, really great people, kind of in any sport.

[393] But it's even more counterintuitive in fighting is you need to cultivate calm.

[394] And the ability to be clinical and think calmly, control your breathing, because like you get a exhausted if you can't control your breathing and and the truth is is that those are life skills that are actually very this they cultivate a very calm they it helps you cultivate calm in life and the thing I always really liked about Aikido um is that there aren't attacks in it it it was developed by a guy more Hayushiba who was a he was an all -round budjitsu master he was like in Jiu -Jitsu, Kendo, karate, all these things, and he developed Aikido because he had joined the global pacifist movement.

[395] He was like one of the most respected cross -form Japanese martial artists, and he joined the same movement for pacifism that Gandhi was a part of in like the 20s.

[396] And he believed that martial arts could contribute to passivism if they refined.

[397] And Aikido was a refinement of Kendo, jujitsu, judo, and he basically said, I'm going to develop a non -aggressive martial art that has all, it has no attacks, and there's an Ukei in it like for the thing, but it's only a defensive, and it's like that phrase, we all hear redirection of energy, the conversion of negative energy into neutral.

[398] that's like the that's his that is really his contribution he was like you can take you can take the most aggressive energy and you can neutralize it you can neutralize it very peacefully or you can neutralize it with a little more teeth in it depending on how aggressive the person's being but i loved that i thought that was amazing because it was like i wasn't like looking to be in fight but i loved the idea that you had that you could have control and you could like neutralize and and i i think I think there's something kind of amazing in that.

[399] I think it's like actually aligns with like yoga, with, with meditation, with all things, surfing.

[400] I mean, that's what surfing is.

[401] It's like there's all this energy coming at you.

[402] Like, and it's going to like put you into the rocks or rock you or flip you over and you, but you, you don't, you don't let that happen.

[403] You kind of, you look at it, you look at a million waves, you figure out how to move yourself, you get in there and you get the exact opposite of getting torched.

[404] you get like the best thing ever right and I I think things like that that are where you have to those are like zen you know what I mean and I think like jiu jitsu what you're saying is really ultimately like why he was great is he had he had he had like the deepest zen of anybody and the whole thing because he was the calmest and he had like the micro micro micro micro micro understanding of forms but really like it's something deeper it's like he you It's like Neo in the Matrix.

[405] He's, like, seeing it with more granularity.

[406] Yeah, he had everything.

[407] He had the full package of it.

[408] Did you ever see any of Stephen Zagal when he was very young?

[409] When he was teaching in Japan?

[410] I was totally fast.

[411] I mean, it's like, and it's really...

[412] It's weird, right?

[413] Like me, right?

[414] Like, like, serious actor, thoughtful actor.

[415] I'm like, what did you?

[416] You know, but I, like, above the law?

[417] Yeah.

[418] Because I was into all that stuff when above the law came out, and there was the scene in above, the law and he's in an ikeeto you know gie with the black thing and he's doing this thing and i was rib i was like oh my god like like this is so cool like when have you ever seen this in a movie yeah and um and he was a you know big guy and he made it violent yeah it's very unusual sort of contribution to martial arts because in martial arts movies yeah he made it realistic yeah it was one of the most realistic martial arts movies ever yeah it was and you know when you look back on it, it, it, it, there's things about it that don't date super well.

[419] Yeah, of course, but he was undeniable.

[420] Literally like, literally what you just showed.

[421] The thing, the thing of the guy coming, it's that simple thing, that thrust and the break and the thing, it's, um, he also, in the film, um, when the guys come at him in, I see, this shows you how it burns your brain.

[422] There's a scene where there's in a, like a bodega, and the guy, I think he smashes a bottle and he comes at him and he does like a move in, Iquito, it's called like, Kota Aishi.

[423] It's like he, it's like the wrist, you know, it's like the wrist break, flip over.

[424] And it was just like, oh my God, like he's doing, he's doing like, you know, nuanced Aikido moves in a big action movie.

[425] It was kind of cool.

[426] Well, he was one of the first, I think the first westerner to run a dojo in Japan.

[427] I mean, he was a legitimate Akito master.

[428] Yeah.

[429] And I think, but what's interesting is when I studied over there, he was, it was slightly controversial because I don't think he was, he had brought.

[430] broken away from like Yushiba, Iketo.

[431] He was doing, like, the way that Gracie Jiu -Jitsu is not pure Japanese Jiu -Jitsu.

[432] He was doing something with, it was somehow it was associated more with Osaka than Tokyo, where the Hombu Dojo and Aikido is.

[433] And there was...

[434] Some controversy.

[435] Yeah, there was, there was just, you know, like the way things are with schools of thought.

[436] But, yeah, he had a certain legit kind of thing.

[437] really wild because people like Mike Ovitz, who was like the power agent of all of Hollywood in the 80s, you know, Mike got a black belt training with Seagal.

[438] Like, he was really serious Aikidoist.

[439] I didn't know that.

[440] Yeah.

[441] That makes sense.

[442] Yeah, it does.

[443] But he's a cautionary tale too, though.

[444] I mean, not even Ovis.

[445] I mean, Seagal, you know.

[446] Yeah.

[447] What do you become?

[448] I guess.

[449] Honestly, my, my, I don't know anything.

[450] about him past a certain point.

[451] Like, I, I, I, I don't know what went on there.

[452] Yeah.

[453] But, you can leave it at that.

[454] Yeah, I, I, I don't.

[455] Tell me about your new movie.

[456] Let's leave it at that.

[457] It's called Motherless Brooklyn.

[458] It's, it was, you know, it was kind of a big swing because I wrote it and I produced it.

[459] Is this the first time you've done that?

[460] Directed it.

[461] I, no, I, I produced and directed the first movie I directed as Keeping the Faith with it's me and Ben Stiller, play a rabbi and a priest who are best friends, and they both fall for the same girl.

[462] Do you ever see that one?

[463] No, I didn't.

[464] It's funny, yeah, you like it.

[465] Ben is hilarious in it.

[466] That was obviously lighter.

[467] That was a lighter kind of movie.

[468] But it was in, I've lived in New York almost 30 years, and I like making movies in New York a lot.

[469] That was a pretty light one.

[470] This one is more – this takes place in the 50s in New York, and it's kind of – it's got a Chinatown, L .A. confidential kind of a noir bent to it.

[471] It's a mystery, a murder mystery of kind of – that leads into some of the stuff that happened in New York in the 50s that is hard to believe because New York was – New York was run by – It was run by basically a Darth Vader -like figure who was never elected to public office.

[472] And, excuse me, people thought he was the Parks Commissioner of New York.

[473] But he was, from 1930 to 1968, he had uncontested authoritarian power over New York City and New York State.

[474] And he made every significant decision about the way that the modern infrastructure of New York was built, where the roads went, where the bridges were built, what was torn down, where the projects were built.

[475] and he was very racist and he baked like really discriminatory things that almost sound like conspiracy theory they're so wild and intense into the decisions he made he was responsible for the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn and going to LA and nobody knows this like you think of New York is the great that's like the great egalitarian melting pot city where democracy works except that it was run by a total autocrat for 38 years Yeah, for, he's largely, it's broadly accepted that no mayor or governor of New York could do a single thing without his say -so from basically about 1930 to about 1968.

[476] How is that even possible?

[477] And how come no one knows about this?

[478] How did you find out?

[479] Well, people do.

[480] There's, like in one of the big Burns Brothers documentaries about New York, there's a whole, literally almost a whole episode on him.

[481] There's a great book about him that won the Pulitzer.

[482] surprise and there's his name was Robert Moses and he you know there's Robert Moses State Beach in New York and but literally people think he was the Parks Commissioner but he was and he was like Anakin Skywalker I he was like a Jedi Knight he was a big liberal progressive believer in progressive change and government reform and in his early years he got crushed by Tammany Hall and the power brokers and he went dark went completely yeah that's not the most imposing picture of him that you've got up there's other ones find one of the ones of him find one of the ones of him standing in front of his models there's famous ones of him that looks like a man of will actually to the left of that and keep going to the left of that um because there's a scene in our movie where alec baldwin is literally like that yeah that alec baldwin essentially plays a character who's based on him inspired by him i should say it's not at all in my film it's not the true story but yeah there you go and but I think this idea I was really interested in this idea you know what's great about Chinatown as a film is it's mostly sexy you don't know what the hell is going on in that movie like until the 20 minutes before the end you have absolutely no idea really what's going on in that movie but it's just sexy it's like the music is amazing the photography's incredible the actors are like adult and real and he's Nicholson, right?

[483] The hook is like, Nicholson is so cool.

[484] You really will kind of follow him.

[485] You'll watch the way he deals with anything and you're just laughing and enjoying it, right?

[486] But underneath it all, when you're done, you go, is that true?

[487] Is L .A. Is L .A. basically built on stolen water?

[488] Is that like the, like, L .A.'s original sin is that people made fortunes.

[489] The valley was just farms and they stole the water from up north and, you know, rigged the game and made these gigantic fortunes by irrigating San Fernando Valley.

[490] And you come away with, like, you come away with an awareness that, like, the California story is not exactly what it's cracked up to be, right?

[491] It's, there's some big crimes underneath it.

[492] And the people who, and that, in that movie, it's like, yeah, that people ripped everybody off.

[493] They faked droughts.

[494] They created fortune and cells.

[495] And the type of people who did that also raped their daughters.

[496] Literally, that's like what that movie is about.

[497] And it's pretty bleak.

[498] It's like you can't make a difference.

[499] You cannot change anything.

[500] And if you try, the person you're trying to help is going to end up with a bullet through her eye dead on the steering wheel.

[501] Like it's a really dark movie.

[502] And people forget that because you just go, oh, Nicholson, Fade Down Away.

[503] It's like, no, that's a really, really bleak movie.

[504] But I love the idea that you can do things where, like, the pleasure of it is, like, the pleasure of movies.

[505] It's grown up.

[506] It's kind of what we've been talking about.

[507] It's like, like, if you said to most people, if you showed Chinatown to most critics today, they'd go long, boring, whatever.

[508] It's like, you want to say, fuck off.

[509] Like, fuck off.

[510] Like, what is it that you, why are you?

[511] Why are you assuming people can't handle grown -up?

[512] You know what I mean?

[513] And I think that I really dig those things where you go through.

[514] The movie starts, you look at it and you go, this looks really good.

[515] This looks really grown -up.

[516] This is big.

[517] The actors are like adult and authoritative.

[518] The dialogue's great.

[519] The music is great.

[520] It's hypnotic.

[521] And your brain just goes, I don't know what's going on.

[522] I don't care.

[523] I'm bought in.

[524] and then and if there's a character in it that you can hook into you float you float through those movies you just kind of go where's this going what's going on oh man that guy she's great he's great wow like this is just all juicy and great and by the end you get somewhere and you kind of go I'll be damned that actually was about big things did those things really happen you know that's I really dig those movies I dig Chinatown LA Confidential I think the godfather works that way The Godfather is about immigrants, you know.

[525] It's about immigrants normalizing in America.

[526] You don't, it's like, that's a long movie.

[527] Yeah.

[528] You just settle in for that movie.

[529] Your brain settles in and just goes, this just couldn't be better.

[530] I couldn't be happier to be watching this scene after scene after scene.

[531] And I wanted to make, I wanted to try, I wanted to try to make one of those, you know, myself.

[532] Like, I wanted to try to try to, um, you know.

[533] make one of those because I don't it's cliche to say like they don't make those anymore but I think you know they were always hard it's not like they were easy once and now they're hard they're always hard but I I would look at people like Warren Beatty he made Reds you know which is one of the great movies from that era even like Spike Lee doing do the right thing I don't know if you remember when that movie hit sure it was massive it was a huge deal to me I was like 18 or 19 I saw that movie and I was like He just rewrote the game Like this kid Who the hell is?

[534] He wrote it, he directed it He acted in it, he got public animated to the music It's about his neighborhood in New York But it's about like race in America It's like oh my God That guy just took like A huge swing and connected On like every level And it didn't even give you some BS kind of like Don't worry it's gonna be okay in the end It was like Martin Luther King says violence is not the way Malcolm X says sometimes it's the only rational response What do you think?

[535] You know what I mean?

[536] It was so ballsy It was so balzy that movie and I think like After a while it's sort of like I just started feeling like well you know I don't really need to gig I might as well I've worked with a lot of great people I've worked with some pretty great directors including Spike and I was kind of like I've been in New York a long time and I just thought it was really weird.

[537] No one knew that story.

[538] And I was like, I'm going to try to make one about this, you know.

[539] As someone who doesn't make movies, I always wonder, like, what happened between, like, say, Steve McQueen's Lamonts?

[540] Did you ever see that movie?

[541] Of course, yeah.

[542] Remember how there's no dialogue at all for, like, the longest time?

[543] And I remember I watched it recently within the last couple years, and one of the thoughts was, I don't even know if they could do this today.

[544] If anybody would allow them to make a movie where no one talking about.

[545] for a long time.

[546] They're just sort of setting the stage of what it means to be a race car driver and what's the atmosphere of the races.

[547] It's just the idea that you were saying earlier about having this short attention span theater, these movies that are designed for what they believe is a populace of people that don't have the interest in something that's more unique or something that requires thought something that drags you in and that was much more common in the past like why was it more common in in that era of McQueen and all those other movies that they did like that and what has happened and like these rare examples like when a guy does break through with something like do the right thing or a few other examples why doesn't that stimulate the the appetite for more well is it that hard to do on one level on one level, yeah, it's easy to recognize when they're great, but it's still not easy to make them great.

[548] It's still, we're talking about people who are some of our greatest artists or directors, you know what I mean?

[549] And lots of people, they try on some level, they try on some level, but they just, not everybody is Spike Lee.

[550] Right.

[551] You know what I mean?

[552] Not everybody is Francis Coppola, or, you know, it's like, it, it, it, people, people, sometimes people make things and they actually are slow.

[553] You know what I mean?

[554] Like, you know what I mean?

[555] You're like, it's like, it's like in Spinal Tap when they're like, it's a, it's a fine line between stupid and clever, you know, no, it's a fine line between clever and stupid.

[556] You know what I mean?

[557] I think people try, but I think that there are some people who really do think Jaws had a big effect on movies because it was like the first true blockbuster, right?

[558] And I don't know.

[559] You know what, actually, though, I'm wrong.

[560] I think that what happens more often than not is adult people get the job.

[561] jobs at the big companies that make the decisions about what to make, right?

[562] And at a certain point, they sort of age out.

[563] They start to age out.

[564] And they don't actually have any idea what the vibe is.

[565] They don't know what to make for the coming wave of younger people.

[566] And so these little windows open up now and then where in that era they needed new people.

[567] They needed, like, you know, George Lucas making American graffiti.

[568] Nobody thought that movie was going to be a hit.

[569] Nobody.

[570] You know, they open up, they say, we don't know what to do, do something different, and a couple of new voices, like, come in, and they make things that are really different, you know.

[571] But the idea that that was only then, like, there's a whole book right now about 1999.

[572] You know, there's this book that came out about how 1990s.

[573] was one of those years where because the studios had kind of lost their sense of exactly what to do and Miramax was making a shit ton of money on on auteur -driven movies made for low cost and the studios all went and set up little mini Miramaxes right and the result was that like in that year you had like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wes Anderson, Alexander Payne, Spike Jones, David O. Russell, Fincher, the Wachowski's, like an unbelievable array of directors made really, really memorable films in that year.

[574] And I think it was because it was like another one of those moments.

[575] Like, we don't know what to, we don't know what to do.

[576] We're just going to have to close our eyes and go, you kids figure it out.

[577] You know what I mean?

[578] The thing about films, it seems to me, It's such a collaborative effort.

[579] And when you have so many moving pieces and so many people involved that have a say in the decision -making process, it's got to be insanely difficult to get something out that's pure.

[580] Yes, that's true.

[581] That's true.

[582] Francis Coppola said that the best thing about making films is that they're collaborative.

[583] And the worst thing about making films is that they're collaborative.

[584] he also said it's the last moral totalitarian job in the world like being a director or something I can't remember but it's true you you it's a very because like I made this movie I had like I had a fraction of like the budget of the Irishman right which I'm naming only because it was a period piece you know mine's in the 50s that one's across these things and and I had like less days to do it than I had on my first movie that I directed.

[585] How many days did you ever do it?

[586] Like 46, which for perspective, Fight Club was 130 -day shoot.

[587] And 46 days is less than most the movies I've made.

[588] And this was a big 1950s, like, period film with a huge, like, French connection -style car chase in the opening, running through Harlem across the bridge down into Queens we weren't like making a little kitchen sink drama and to figure that out that is like you can be like I've got the vision we're going to do this but there's a kind of madness in saying this is what I want to do I want to recreate the old Penn Station that doesn't exist anymore right which we have in the film like my character goes into the old Penn Station that was torn down in 1963 or whatever And you only pull that off with the most kick -ass Justice League of collaborators imaginable, like they make you look like you're a visionary or know what you're doing because you get these people with crazy talents of their own.

[589] And I don't mean just cast, although I had that too in this.

[590] I mean like some of the very, very, very best people bring their talent to like making that work.

[591] And so that's like when you say like, your job is more to say, I have really talented people.

[592] I've got to get their frequency wave in line with mine.

[593] If I can get their frequency wave in line with mine, then it can be my idea, my vision, my weird ideas can be in there.

[594] But it's executed with the help of people who believe in it and buy into it.

[595] You know, that's the key.

[596] It's like you're, you're marshalling people.

[597] to get to it in sync with you.

[598] And, you know, I have a sick cat.

[599] It's like Bruce Willis, Alec, Baldwin, Willem Defoe, Bobby Canevali, Michael K. Williams, who was like Omar on the Wire.

[600] This great actress Gougu and Batha Raw.

[601] And Leslie Mann and, you know, on and on and on.

[602] And all these people did this as a favor to me because I didn't have any money to do it.

[603] So starting with Bruce, Bruce was like, you know, he said to me a long time ago, I'll, if you have something good, I want to be in it.

[604] I really want to do the kind of stuff you're doing, and I really mean it.

[605] I'll do anything you want to do and help you get it done.

[606] I was like, he's not going to remember that, you know.

[607] He's going to be like, sure, sure, but I'm doing diehard like for the rest of the year.

[608] And he didn't.

[609] He was like, where do you need me?

[610] I told you I'm in.

[611] Wow.

[612] Let's get it done.

[613] And basically Bruce, Alec, Willem, people like that, I practically call them.

[614] them co -financieres on my film because I only got it done because they deferred everything, you know?

[615] And I think that's really cool.

[616] That's amazing.

[617] Yeah.

[618] When you write something like this car chase scene through Harlem, I mean, I would imagine the logistics of pulling something like that off.

[619] It's got to be insane.

[620] Yeah, it's nuts.

[621] How does, when you wrote it and you brought it to the people that are the stunt people, the people that coordinate these chase scenes, where they're like, oh, fuck.

[622] People get people, yes, you know doing the things is not hard getting permission to do them in Manhattan is tricky and there are people who look at you like you're dreaming man like you're not and what you do is you go out and scout and you start you say look this is we can do this here and this here and this isn't hard this isn't hard we only need this one block cleared and things then you like find that place where you're like I want him to do a huge screeching turn onto Frederick Douglass Boulevard because it has a nine block stretch where there's very few buildings that don't look like they're in the 50s, right?

[623] Leading up to a bridge that you want to go over the bridge.

[624] And then you get with like the guys at the NYPD and you beg.

[625] Like you just beg.

[626] You go, look, we're going to be like the dirty dozen.

[627] Everything is going to be so well planned and ready to go.

[628] We'll be able to, we'll say just shut it down.

[629] and then 20 minutes will be done.

[630] You know what I mean?

[631] Like you start...

[632] 20 minutes.

[633] Well, no, just for a shot.

[634] You know, it's like we just need to do this once or twice to get this turn of the car around the corner and headed up the avenue with 80 cars from the 50s.

[635] And you're using legitimate 1950s cars as well?

[636] So those things handle like...

[637] They're horrible.

[638] They're boats with wheels on them.

[639] So any car that's actually got to be doing anything like going fast or making a big turn, you have to have four of the same model that you've painted identically because they're going to break.

[640] Like they will break.

[641] You'll push one hard, it will break.

[642] And then you have to like bring the other one in.

[643] You know what I mean?

[644] So you, you, and you basically can't make them go fast.

[645] You know, they don't have pickup.

[646] Right.

[647] So you're figuring out like what are the moves we can make that make it feel like this thing is really bombing.

[648] and how do we cross -cut around the fact that it takes three blocks for it to accelerate.

[649] I mean, like, literally to go from, you know, 10 miles an hour to 40, you need, like, literally, like, three or four blocks.

[650] So you have to, like, get it up to speed for the section that you want it going fast.

[651] And it's, it's, I'm not doing another period movie.

[652] I'm doing the next movie I'm doing is going to have Tesla P100Ds that go, like, zero to 60 and 2 .4.

[653] Now, when you write this out, like how much time is involved in preparation of writing this and then doing all the scouting and then trying to implement this whole?

[654] It took me a couple years to write it because I haven't even said in, I think you have to know yourself.

[655] I'm not Bogart.

[656] I'm not like Jack Nicholson.

[657] The magic they bring is the magic they bring.

[658] And the character I put at the middle of this is the detective that I play has Tourette's syndrome.

[659] an obsessive compulsive disorder.

[660] So he can't, like when he, you know, when he meets a blonde at the bar, he's like the opposite of Bogart.

[661] He tries to lighter match and can't stop blowing it out because it doesn't sound right to him.

[662] So he's kind of a train wreck.

[663] Like, he's the opposite of a cool detective.

[664] And in fact, Bruce Willis plays the cool detective who he works for.

[665] So, like, Bruce Willis is Nicholson.

[666] But when something bad happens to him and my guy has to, like, step out of the assistant role, you know, he's just like his operative because he has a great memory.

[667] He has, like, a photographic memory and some really weird ability to, like, because his brain is chaotic and crazy, he has certain little gifts that Bruce Willis, like, relies on him for and believes in him.

[668] but when he has to sort of figure out what happened to his boss and solve this mystery like he kind of has to come out on his own out of his comfort zone and kind of become a detective and it's like you know he's ticking and twitching and shouting and doing things that make it very difficult for him to move in the world so that's kind of like I had that part of it and I was grafting it into this story of what happened in New York in the 50s, and it took me a long time to write it and get it right.

[669] But once I had it right, you know, we probably prepped the movie for like nine months.

[670] We were actively scouting New York, you know, and imagining like where can we do this and how can we do this.

[671] But I live in New York, so I loved it.

[672] I'd like get on my motorcycle and go up to Harlem and Washington, Heights and literally like cruise around, just cruise around.

[673] I know the area really well anyway, but sometimes you just have to like just, and that's where a bike in New York is really great, like, because you can just sort of float around, float around, float around mentally mapping, like where you can do a thing.

[674] And it was pretty fun.

[675] That's such a bold move riding a bike in New York City.

[676] No, it's not.

[677] It's not?

[678] L .A. is way, way, way more dangerous.

[679] Because New York, no one's going that fast, right?

[680] You can be, I can't explain it.

[681] In New York, there's a rationality to the way people are moving, but I'll tell you the number one main thing.

[682] New York driving, it's so stop and start, and it's the things nobody has time to be on their phone.

[683] And in L .A., if I'm on a bike, I would say I regularly look to my right and I look to my left and both people on either side of me are texting do you ever see I mean yes all the time all the time when I'm in my truck especially because I can look down yeah and you realize you realize that in this town 60 % of people at any given moment are texting on their phone and it's just appalling and it's so dangerous and I'll be on if I'm on a motorcycle in LA, I'll look at people.

[684] They're texting for so long.

[685] And finally, I'll have to, like, hit the horn or something and look at them.

[686] I've gotten past, like, you know, anger and literally just looked at people, flip my thing up and gone, like, please, like, please get off your phone.

[687] Like, you're going to kill somebody and kill yourself.

[688] But we can't.

[689] We can't break the addiction.

[690] People cannot break the addiction.

[691] And it's not a more, you realize.

[692] It isn't a character flaw.

[693] It's not like, what an asshole.

[694] It's everybody.

[695] It's your mom.

[696] It's your sister.

[697] It's your friend.

[698] Everybody is doing it because we're addicted.

[699] Like a device addicted.

[700] But when you're on a bike and you realize, like, I am floating in a sea of people who are going to mess up.

[701] Someone is going to mess up.

[702] And they've got airbags and, you know, new modern.

[703] stuff and I you're on this but like you don't have anything yeah I don't I think I think I think this is way more dangerous riding um than than New York that makes sense when you talk about things like the 405 or the one -on -one when people are flying by and passing and changing lanes and the texting too yeah and also the big avenues people get up you know Wilshire boulevard whatever they're looking at thing and they blow that red light right all the time and half the times you hear about or see bad accidents here, especially if they involve motorcycles.

[704] I mean, it's like it's not like the person screwed, the person on the bike didn't screw up.

[705] Someone went through a red light and just broadsided them or they teabone them.

[706] You know, it's just, it's like, do you really want to make the bet, the huge bet on yourself where what you're riding on is other people's concentration, you know.

[707] Were you riding when you were living out here?

[708] I've never I've always lived in New York So when you've been here It's only from a few months at a time Yeah no I've I've I've I've spent winters out here I like to surf And I'm by the way I'm like not I'm not like a pro experienced Like veteran motorcycle rider at all I just enjoy it And like out here it's fun You know like go up the Angeles Crest Road or something pretty like that You know I love drive.

[709] driving up there.

[710] Yeah, it's really, it's cool.

[711] There's California, L .A. L .A. is hard.

[712] No one likes to be on a motorcycle in L .A. sucks.

[713] It's like just hot and everybody's in your face.

[714] But, you know, California is incredible.

[715] There's so much, there's so many amazing places to go in California.

[716] And I kind of got hooked on it out here.

[717] And so then when you were in New York, you just said, fuck it.

[718] This is actually a good place to ride a bike.

[719] No, it's not even that.

[720] I ride bicycles, too, in New York.

[721] I like it, but it's more just that the thing that pulls you in, I mean, I have lots, I, you know, I like to surf, I fly planes.

[722] I like, there's a lot of stuff that I think is much, much, much, that's thrilling, it's much safer than riding motorcycles.

[723] It's not like my jam.

[724] But once you have that skill set, once you can do it, if you have a bike, there are those times in L .A. and in New York, too, where you take a look at, like, the grid, lock and you're just like, I'm going to be in this forever.

[725] And on a bike, you can lane split and just get, you know, you can get where you need to go.

[726] And in New York, too, you can, you can zip around in ways that is efficient.

[727] So how long did this, I mean, how long did you sit on this story?

[728] How long did you know about this?

[729] And what was the process of having this sort of build in your mind to the point where you wanted to write it, direct it, produce it, cast it.

[730] Honestly, I read the book exactly 20 years ago.

[731] I read it in the fall of 99 when I was, when Fight Club came out.

[732] I was right around the time, I read this novel, Motherless Brooklyn, but the novel's about the Touretic detective who's trying to solve the murder of his only friend, basically.

[733] But it takes place in the 90s.

[734] It's not about any of that stuff about.

[735] New York in the 50s or anything.

[736] It's just and the character is just amazing though like amazing.

[737] So when I read it, the hook was the character.

[738] I was like, I was like, what a great character.

[739] It's so, it's such a wild.

[740] He's like just this hot mess of, of, he's smart, but he's totally messed up.

[741] He's funny, but also really, it's pretty painful and lonely.

[742] And it was just everything.

[743] And I was like, that's, I could get, into trying to figure that out.

[744] For reasons that are a little hard to explain, the tone of the book feels like a 50s detective novel, but it's set in the modern world, and I was afraid in a movie that would feel a little bit like the Blues Brothers, like guys in fedoras, but a Prius is floating by, and so you're sort of like, maybe this would just be cooler if we set it in the 50s, and I talked to the author about that, and he was super into those movies, and so he said, okay.

[745] Wow.

[746] So then, but then the middle period was the period of mashing that up with the, with these sort of stories, the New York Chinatown kind of of it, the deep, dark history of what really went on in New York.

[747] And that took a long time.

[748] And then I had it ready in 2012.

[749] I was really ready to go.

[750] And I just couldn't get it to, I couldn't get, Bruce said he was in and that was kind of angry.

[751] But I couldn't get everyone I wanted together at the same.

[752] same time, and I couldn't get the amount of money I needed or that I thought I wanted, and I couldn't get a studio to back it.

[753] Because honestly, you know, number one, like, I'm not like, you know, I'm not like a green light anything he does, kind of an actor, that's, it's just, you know, I think that's a, that's a different sort of thing.

[754] but also I was out there saying it's sort of like Rain Man meets LA Confidential and people's eyes just kind of crossed they're like they're like bring us the next one like they're like we don't get it we don't get it we don't get yet it's like and also I got like I had like this idea of getting I love Radiohead and I like jazz and I wanted to like I got Tom York to write a song for the film but I got Wynton Marcellus to do all the jazz and stuff and people were also they were like these things are not going to go well together you know and then they went to get like a lot of people have said to me which is not it's not me to a lot of people said to me it's the best music in a film that they've heard in many many years flea flea played trumpet and um and bass on tom york's track in the film and and flea you know flea's like a really good trumpet player and his dad was a jazz musician and I didn't know that Fleet came out of the movie like crying he was like that's honestly my favorite music that I've ever heard in a film and I think but you can't you can't tell people that you I thought that would work I thought this mashup would work because I knew Tom and I knew he loves Charles Mingus and I knew Winton was capable of doing he's really interested in dissonant weird edgier kind of modernist music as well and I was like this is going to work and it and it did it's it's really the music's amazing in the film it it's like its own like the record the records out now and people are flipping out about just the music and the movie hasn't even come out yet with such a crazy combination of factors and details that you smashed all together yeah and it's got to feel first of all it's got to be a tremendous relief and also feel amazing that it's you did it I do feel that.

[755] I feel like it would have haunted me. And it was rattling around in my head such a long time.

[756] I felt very discouraged about it at times because I was kind of like, you know, I've done a few okay things.

[757] Like I've done some stuff that was weird and that people didn't understand and it's come together pretty great.

[758] You know what I mean?

[759] And you sort of go, God, I never expect anybody to give me money.

[760] to make something like that's that's just risky like I would never put money into making movies never like it's too risky you know and I get it so I'm not like I deserve this like but it was more like I sometimes I was just like am I going to be able to figure this out or not am I am I going to get this done and and I think getting it done and having it um not having quit on it and in some ways feeling not actually knowing that it's better that I made it now I know more I was more if I tried to do it 20 years ago I couldn't I didn't have the chops to do some of the things like working with Spike Lee and Alejandro and Euridu and people like that really like it upped my sense of how to do I learned a lot about how to do a big thing without all the money in the world.

[761] Now this is released nationwide, worldwide, like when it's released on this Friday, right?

[762] Yeah, this Friday.

[763] It's everywhere.

[764] The afternoon.

[765] All over America, yeah.

[766] Yeah, it's a wide release here.

[767] I hope, yeah, and I think honestly, like, the day it comes out, like, you can either see Terminator, like, 9 .11 or, or ours.

[768] There's like not, and I, I like, certify on the Joe Rogan experience, like, there's not a grown -up human being who will not be stoked about this film.

[769] Like, I can say that people who are seeing it are very, very, very into it and very bought in because it is one of those, like, it's a big meal, but it's a really, like, it's a really rich, good meal, and it has amazing, amazing performances.

[770] I don't think Alec Baldwin has ever been better in a movie, honestly.

[771] And I think Will and Defoe is amazing.

[772] Michael K. Williams is amazing.

[773] And the music is great.

[774] And it's a cool story.

[775] And I think it's kind of one of those things that it's worth going to theater to see.

[776] But I guarantee you it's more worth your time than another Terminator movie.

[777] Well, it sounds like it to me. I'm really excited about it.

[778] and I will see it for sure.

[779] Thank you.

[780] And it was a pleasure talking to you, man. I really appreciate it.

[781] Thank you very much for coming in here, man. Absolutely.

[782] Thank you.

[783] Bye, everybody.

[784] Are you still trained?

[785] You do?

[786] Like serious?