#127 – Joe Rogan: Conversations, Ideas, Love, Freedom & The Joe Rogan Experience

[0] The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan that we recorded after my recent appearance on his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience.

[1] Joe has been an inspiration to me, and I thank to millions of people for just being somebody who puts love out there in the world and being genuinely curious about wild ideas from chimps and psychedelics to quantum mechanics and artificial intelligence.

[2] Like many of you, I've been a fan of this podcast for over.

[3] over a decade, and now, somehow, miraculously, am humbled to be able to call him a friend.

[4] If you enjoy this thing, subscribe by YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

[5] Today's sponsors are Neuro, Eight Sleep, Dollar Shave Club, and Olive Garden, home of the unlimited breadsticks and Brian Red Band's favorite restaurant.

[6] check out the first three of the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.

[7] As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and no ads in the middle.

[8] I try to make these interesting, but I give you time stamps so you can skip.

[9] But still, please do check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description.

[10] This show is sponsored by Neuro, a company that makes functional gum and mints that supercharge your mind with a sugar -free blend of caffeine, Althianine and B6 B12 vitamins.

[11] It's loved by Olympians and engineers alike.

[12] I personally love the mid -gum.

[13] It helps me focus during times when I can use a boost.

[14] My favorite use case is to chew it for like 10 minutes at the start of a deep work session, standing behind a desk, typing frantically and build up a kind of urgent energy around the task to get the ball rolling, which I think the first few minutes of a deep work session is actually the hardest, most difficult part.

[15] By the way, Cal Newport, author of Deep Work, a book I highly recommend, will eventually be on this podcast.

[16] I talk to him often.

[17] He's a constant inspiration.

[18] He has his own podcast, too, on productivity, called Deep Questions.

[19] They should definitely check out.

[20] Anyway, each piece of neurogum is about one -half a couple coffees worth of caffeine.

[21] And you may know that I love caffeine.

[22] I also just love coffee and tea.

[23] Makes me feel like home somehow.

[24] Anyway, Neuro is offering 15 % off when you go to getneuro .com and use code Lex at checkout.

[25] Once again, that's getneuro .com and use code Lex.

[26] This show is also sponsored by 8Sleep and it's PodPro Mattress.

[27] You can check out at 8Sleep .com slash Lex to get $200 off.

[28] It controls temperature with an app, and it's packed with sensors, and can cool down to as low as 55 degrees, on each side of the bed separately.

[29] Anecdotally, it's been a game changer for me. I'm generally the kind of person that's not about material possessions.

[30] I don't have many fancy things in my life.

[31] So this bed has been a kind of exciting addition into the mix.

[32] There's something about the combination of a cool bed surface with a warm blanket after a long day of focused work that is just something I look forward to.

[33] Sleep in general for me lately.

[34] I don't know if it's related to the bed or not has been full of dreams.

[35] So I've been exploring the universe, not constrained by the physics of reality quite a bit.

[36] Maybe it's the bed.

[37] You should try it out and see.

[38] I should mention that they can track a bunch of metrics like heart rate variability, but cooling alone honestly is worth the money.

[39] Anyway, go to Aesleep .com slash Lex to get $200 off and to support this podcast.

[40] This show is also sponsored by Dollar Shave Club.

[41] Try them out with a one -time offer for only $5 and free shipping at dollarshaveclub .com slash Lex.

[42] The starter kit comes with a six blade razor, refills, and all kinds of other stuff that makes shaving feel great.

[43] I've been a member of Dollar Shave Club for over five years and actually signed up when I first heard about them on the Joe Rogan experience.

[44] And now, we come full circle, friends.

[45] I'm interviewing Joe on this podcast and monetizing it by doing a read for Dollar Shave Club.

[46] It feels kind of surreal, to be honest, to be doing a read for them, just like Joe did all those years ago.

[47] For the past few years, I just used the razor and the refills, but they encouraged me to try the shave butter, which I did, and I love it.

[48] Again, try the Ultimate Shave Starter set today for just five bucks.

[49] plus free shipping at dollar shaveclub .com slash lex.

[50] And now here's my conversation with Joe Rogan.

[51] Do you ponder your mortality?

[52] Are you afraid of death?

[53] I do think about it sometimes.

[54] I mean, it does pop into my head sometimes.

[55] Just the fact that, I mean, I'm 53.

[56] So if everything goes great, I have less than 50 years left.

[57] You know, if everything goes great, like no car accidents, no injuries.

[58] But it could happen today.

[59] This could be your last day.

[60] Could be.

[61] That's kind of a stoic thing to meditate on death.

[62] There's a bunch of philosophers, Ernest Becker, and Sheldon Solomon.

[63] They believe that death is at the core of everything.

[64] Wrote this book, Warm at the Core.

[65] So does that come into play in the way you see the world?

[66] I think having a sense of urgency is very beneficial.

[67] And understanding that your time is limited can aid you greatly.

[68] I think knowing that this is a temporary time that we have finite life spans, I think there's a, there's great power in that because it motivates you.

[69] It gets you going.

[70] I think being an immortal living forever would be one of the most depressing things, particularly if everybody else was dying around you.

[71] And I think one of the things that makes life so interesting and fascinating is that it doesn't last, you know, that you really get a brief amount of time.

[72] time here and really by the time you're just starting to kind of figure yourself out who you are and how not to screw things up so bad it's like time's up the rise over what about from your like from your daughter's perspective do you think about the world we're in now and what kind of world you're going to leave them i do and do you worry about it i do yeah i do i do when i see these protests and riots and chaos and so much, so much anger in the world today.

[73] And then particularly today, I think because of the pandemic and the fact that so many folks are out of work and through no fault of their own and can't make ends meet and just people feel so helpless and angry, it's a particularly divisive time.

[74] It's a particularly turmoil -filled time.

[75] And it just doesn't seem like the world of a year ago, even, just feels very chaotic and dangerous.

[76] And it's a small thing, like in terms of the, like the possibilities of things that could happen to the world, like a pandemic, like the one we've experienced, it really just doubles the amount of deaths on a bad flu year.

[77] So it, relatively speaking, is a small thing in comparison to super volcano eruptions, asteroid impact, a real horrific pandemic.

[78] pandemic or one that, you know, really wipes out millions and millions of people.

[79] It's, it's stunning how fragile civility is.

[80] It's stunning how fragile our, our society really is, that something like this can come along, some unprecedented thing, unprecedented thing can come along, and all of a sudden everybody's out of work for six months, and then everybody's at each those throats.

[81] And then politically, everyone's at each other's throats.

[82] And then with the advent of social media and the images that you can see, you know, with videos of police abuse and just racial tensions are an all -time high, to a point where, like, if you asked me just five or six years ago, like, have racial problems in this country largely been alleviated, I'd probably say, yeah, it's way better than it's ever been before.

[83] But now you could argue that it's not.

[84] Now you could argue, no, it's way worse in just a small amount of time.

[85] It's way worse than it's ever been during my lifetime while I'm aware of it.

[86] You know, obviously when I was a young boy in the 60s, they were still going through the civil rights movement.

[87] But now it just seems very fever pitched.

[88] And I think a lot of that is because of the pandemic and is because of all the heightened just tension.

[89] The one I liken it to is Pete, road race.

[90] rage.

[91] Because, you know, people have road rage, not just because they're in the car and no one can get to them, but also because you're at a heightened state because you're driving fast and you know you're driving fast.

[92] You know you have to make split second movements.

[93] And so anybody doing something, you're like, what the people go crazy because they're already at an eight because they're already at an eight because they're already at an eight.

[94] That's what it feels like with today, with the pandemic.

[95] It feels like everybody is already at an eight.

[96] So anything that comes along, it's like light it all on fire.

[97] You know, burn it down.

[98] Like, that's part of what I think is part of the reason for a lot of the looting and the riots and all the chaos.

[99] It's not just the people out of work, but it's also that everyone feels so tense already.

[100] And everyone feels so helpless.

[101] And it's like, you know, doing something like that makes people, it just, it gives people a whole new motivation for chaos, a whole new motivation for chaos, a whole new motivation for, for doing destructive things that I've never experienced in my life.

[102] And your better days when you see a positive future, what do you think is the way out of this chaos off 2020?

[103] Like if you visualize it 2025, that's a better world than today.

[104] How do we get there?

[105] And what does that look like?

[106] It's a good question.

[107] I can honestly say I don't know.

[108] And I wouldn't have said I don't know a year ago.

[109] A year ago, I would have said, we're going to be okay.

[110] As much as people hate Trump, the economy is doing great.

[111] I think we're going to be fine.

[112] That's not how I feel today.

[113] Today, I don't think there's a clear solution politically, because I think if Trump wins, people are going to be furious.

[114] And I think if Biden wins, people are going to be furious, particularly like if things get more woke, you know, if people continue to enforce this force compliance and make people behave a certain way and act a certain way, which seems to be a part of what this whole woke thing is that is the most disturbing for me is that I see what's going on.

[115] I see there's a lot of losers that have hopped on this and they shove it in people's faces and it doesn't have to make sense.

[116] Like there was a Black Lives Matter protest that stopped this woman at a restaurant.

[117] They were surrounding her outside a restaurant.

[118] They were forcing her to raise her fist in compliance.

[119] This is a woman who's marched for Black Lives multiple times, Black Lives Matter multiple times, and the people all around her doing this were all white.

[120] Yeah.

[121] It's all weird.

[122] My friend Coach T, he's a wrestling coach, is also on a podcast, my friend Brian Moses, his take on it is that black, and he's a black guy.

[123] He says, Black Lives Matter is a white cult.

[124] And I'm like, when you see that picture, it's hard to argue that he's got a point.

[125] I mean, it's clearly not all about that, but there's a lot of people that have jumped on board that are very much like cult members.

[126] Because the thing about Black Lives Matter or any movement is you can't control who joins.

[127] There's no entrance examination.

[128] So you don't go, okay, how do you feel about this?

[129] What's your perceptions on that?

[130] Like the man who shot the Trump supporter in Portland, you know, that guy who murdered the Trump supporter, then the cop shot him.

[131] That guy was walking around with his hand on his gun.

[132] looking for Trump supporters just want I mean he's a known violent guy who was walking around looking for Trump supporters found one and shot one that has nothing to do with Black Lives Matter he's a white guy he shot another white guy it's just it's just madness you know and that that kind of madness is it's disturbing to see it ramp up so quickly I mean there's been there's been riots in Portland every night oh excuse me demonstrations for 101 days now 101 days in a row of them lighting things on fire, breaking into federal buildings.

[133] It's like, whoever saw that coming?

[134] Nobody saw that comment.

[135] So I don't know what the solution is, and I don't know what it looks like in five years.

[136] So 2025, to answer your question, like, it could be anything.

[137] I mean, we could be looking at Mad Max.

[138] We could be looking at the apocalypse.

[139] We could also be looking at an invasion from another country.

[140] We could be looking at a war, like a real hot war.

[141] to put a little bit of responsibility on you.

[142] Like, for me, I've listened to you since the Red Band, Olive Garden Days, that's the very beginning.

[143] And there was something in the way you communicated about the world.

[144] Maybe there was others, but you're the one I was aware of, is you're open -minded and, like, loving towards the world, especially as the podcast developed.

[145] Like, you just demonstrated and lived this kind of just kindness, or maybe even, like, lack of jealousy in your own little profession of comedy, it was clear that you didn't, you didn't succumb to the weaker aspects of human nature and thereby inspire people like me, who I was, I was naturally, probably especially in like the 20s, early 20s, kind of jealous on the success of others, and you're really the primary person that taught me to truly celebrate the success of others.

[146] And so by way of question, and you kind of have a role in this of making a better of 2025.

[147] You have such a big megaphone.

[148] Is there something you think you can do on this podcast with the words, the way you talk, the things you discuss that could create a better of 2025?

[149] I think, if anything, I could help in leading by example, but that's only going to help the people that are listening.

[150] I don't know what else I can do in terms of, like make the world a better place other than express my hopes and wishes for that and just try to be as nice as I can to people as often as I can.

[151] But I also think that I've fallen into this weird category, particularly with the Spotify deal, where, you know, I'm one of them now.

[152] I'm not a regular person anymore.

[153] Now I'm like some famous rich guy.

[154] So you go from being a regular person to a famous rich guy that's out of touch.

[155] you know and that that's a real issue whenever you're talking about the economy about just real life problems it's interesting it kind of hurts my heart to hear people say about i la musk he's just a billionaire yeah it's an interesting statement but i think if you just continue being you and he continue being him people people i think people are just voicing their worry that you become some rich guy i don't even know if they're doing that i think they're just finding the way he describes it an attack vector right yeah and i think he's right i think they just uh they can dismiss you by just saying oh you're you're you're just a that you know you're a you're easily uh definable right but there i mean there's truth to that you if you're not careful you can become out of touch but you that that's an interesting thing like how why haven't you become out of touch like as a human off the podcast You don't act like a, like you talk to somebody like me. You don't talk like a famous person or you don't, you don't act rich.

[156] Like you're better than others.

[157] There's a certain, listen, I've talked to quite a few.

[158] You have too, but I've talked to a specially kind of group of people that are like Nobel Prize winners, let's say.

[159] They sometimes have an error to them that's of arrogance.

[160] Yeah.

[161] And you don't.

[162] What's that about?

[163] Well, you've got to know what that is, right?

[164] Like, that air of arrogance comes from drinking your own Kool -Aid.

[165] You start believing that somehow, no, just because you're getting praise from all these people, that you really are something different.

[166] Usually it exemplifies, there's something there where there's a lack of struggle, you know.

[167] And I think struggle is probably one of the most important balancing tools that a person can have.

[168] And for me, I struggle mentally and I struggle physically.

[169] I struggle mentally in that I, like we were talking about on the podcast we did previously, you and I on my podcast said, I'm not a fan of my work.

[170] I'm not a fan of what I do.

[171] I'm my harshest critic.

[172] So anytime anybody says something bad about me, I'm like, listen, I said way worse about myself.

[173] I, you know, I don't like anything I do.

[174] I'm ruthlessly introspective.

[175] and I will continue to be that way because that's the only way you can't be good as a comedian.

[176] There's no other way.

[177] You can't just think you're awesome and just go out there.

[178] You have to be like picking apart everything you do.

[179] But there's a balance to that too because you have to have enough confidence to go out there and perform.

[180] You can't think, oh my God, I suck.

[181] I know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing because I put in all that work.

[182] And one of the reasons why I put in all that work is I don't like the end result most of the time.

[183] So I need to work at it all the time.

[184] And then there's physical struggle, which I think balance is, everything out.

[185] Without physical struggle, I always make the analogy that the body is in a lot of ways like a battery, where if you have extra charge, it's like it leaks out of the top and it becomes unmanageable and messy.

[186] And that's how my psyche is.

[187] If I have too much energy, if I'm not, if I'm not exerting myself in a violent way, like an explosive way, like wearing myself out, I just don't like the way the world is.

[188] I don't like the way I interface with the world.

[189] I'm too tense.

[190] I'm too quick to be upset about things.

[191] But when I work out hard and, you know, I put in a brutal training session, everything's fine.

[192] Well, the first time I talked to you on Jerry, you were doing October.

[193] Sober October.

[194] And there's something in your eyes.

[195] I think you've talked about that you, you know, you exercise the demons out, essentially, so you exercise to get whatever the parts of you that you don't like out.

[196] There's a dark, there's a darkness in you there, like the competitiveness and the focus of that person.

[197] That was a scary time in a lot of ways, that Sober October thing.

[198] Because my friends, we were all talking shit, right?

[199] Because we're competing against each other in these fitness challenges.

[200] And you had one point for, like you got a certain amount of points for each minute that you went at 80 % of your max heart rate.

[201] And one day I got 1100 points.

[202] So I did seven hours on an elliptical machine watching the bathhouse scene from John Wick where he murders all those people in the bathroom.

[203] I watched it probably 50 times in a row.

[204] I went crazy.

[205] I went crazy.

[206] But I went crazy you know, a weird way where it brought me back to my, um, my fighting days.

[207] It was like the same, that person came out again.

[208] It was like, well, I didn't even know he was in there.

[209] It's like, they're like, like, like an assassin, like a killer.

[210] Like I felt, I felt like, I felt like a, like a different person.

[211] Is it echoes of like what Mike Tyson talked about, essentially like the, the, maybe, but no orgasm in their notions.

[212] all the crazy shit that he was saying is there is there a violent person in there oh yeah yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of violence in me for sure i don't know if it's genetic or learned or it's because during my formative years from the time i was 15 until i was 22 all i did was fight that was all i did that was all i did was train and compete that's all i did that was my whole life is it connected to uh so you uh your mom and dad broke up early on Is it connected to the dad at all?

[213] I'm sure it's connected to him also because he was violent and it made me feel very scared to be around him.

[214] But I also think it's connected in who he was as a human is transferred into my DNA.

[215] You know, I think there's a certain amount of, I mean, to be prejudiced against myself, I look like a violent person.

[216] And if I didn't know me, I'm just even the way I'm built, not even just the working out part, just the size of my.

[217] hands and like there's the width of my shoulders like there's most likely a lot of violence in my history in my past and my ancestry and I think I think we minimize that with people like so much of your behavior like when I see my daughter I have a one daughter that's obsessive in terms of like she wants to get really good at things like could she and she'll practice things all day long and it's 100 % my personality like she's me in female form, but without the anger as much and without the fear, like she has, you know, loving household and everything like that.

[218] But she has this intense obsession with doing things and doing things really well and getting better.

[219] What's the point we have to tell her, stop, like stop doing handsprings in the house.

[220] Stop, stop.

[221] Come on.

[222] Just sit out, have dinner.

[223] Like, one more, one more.

[224] Like, she's just like, she's like, she's psycho.

[225] And I think there's a lot of, behavior and personality and a lot of these things are passed down through genetics.

[226] We don't really know, right?

[227] We don't know how much of who you are genetically is learn behavior, you know, nature or nurture.

[228] We don't know if it's learned behavior or whether or not it's something that's intrinsically a part of you because of, you know, who your parents were.

[229] I think there's certainly some genetic violence in me. And then you channeled it.

[230] So you figured out it's basically your life is a productive exploration of how to channel that.

[231] Yes.

[232] How to figure out how to get that monkey to sit down and calm down.

[233] There's another person in there.

[234] Like this is a calm, rational, kind, friendly person who just wants to laugh and have fun.

[235] And then there's that dude who comes out when I did sober October.

[236] That guy's scary.

[237] I don't like that guy.

[238] That guy just wants to get up in the more.

[239] morning and go.

[240] You know, it's like it's, I mean, when I was competing, it was necessary.

[241] But it makes me remember.

[242] I didn't really remember what I used to be like until that.

[243] It's like when I'm working out seven hours a day and it's so obsessed and all I was thinking about was winning, that's all I was thinking about.

[244] Like, if they were, if they were working out five hours a day, I wanted, I wanted them to know that I was going to work out an extra three hours and I was going to get up early and I was going to text them all.

[245] Hey, pussies.

[246] I'm up already.

[247] Take pictures, send selfies.

[248] I was like, you're going to die.

[249] Oh, I kept telling them, you're all going to die.

[250] You try to keep up with me. You're going to die.

[251] You weren't fully joking.

[252] No, I wasn't joking at all.

[253] That's what was fucked up about it.

[254] It's the scary thing when I interacted with Guggins.

[255] And what I saw in you during that time is like, this guy, like, this is why I've been avoiding David Ganges recently.

[256] is like because he wants to meet he wants to do like talking this podcast but he also wants to run an ultramarathon with me and I felt like this is a person if I spend any time in this realm if I spend any time with a Joe Rogan of that sober October like I might have to die to get out like there's this kind of yeah there's a competitive aspect that's super unhealthy I mean you saw the video that we watched earlier today of Gagin's draining his knee that would stop me from running ever again Because I would think in my head, okay, I'm going to ruin my cartilage, I'm going to need a knee replacement.

[257] I would start thinking, I would go down that line.

[258] But he is perpetually in this push -it mindset, you know, what he calls the dog in him.

[259] You know, that dog is in him all day long, and he feeds that dog.

[260] You know, and that's who he is.

[261] That's one of the reasons why he's so inspirational, and he's fuel for millions and millions of people.

[262] I mean, he really is.

[263] He motivates people in a way that is so powerful.

[264] but it can be very destructive.

[265] I know now, especially after the Sober October thing, that that thing's still in me. You know, I didn't know, so I really haven't done anything physically competitive.

[266] Except one time I was supposed to fight Wesley Snipes.

[267] It came out then, too.

[268] That came out too.

[269] That got creepy too.

[270] But luckily that never happened.

[271] But that was many months of training, like training twice a day, every day.

[272] Kickboxing in the morning, jiu -jitsu at night.

[273] I was just going, going, and going and going, and I was just thinking just all day long.

[274] But it fucks with all the other aspects of your life.

[275] It fucks with your friendships.

[276] It fucks with your, it fuck with my comedy.

[277] Fucks with everything.

[278] Because that mindset is not a mindset of an artist.

[279] It's a mindset of a conqueror.

[280] The conqueror.

[281] Destroyer.

[282] That's why it's so interesting to see Mike Tyson make the switch.

[283] It's clear that like whatever that is, however that fight goes, he made a, there's a switch of a different.

[284] He stepped into a different dimension.

[285] Roy Jones Jr. is coming on my podcast soon.

[286] And, you know, Roy's going to be on before the fight.

[287] I'm so curious to see how it goes down, but genuinely concerned.

[288] Because Mike Tyson is a heavyweight.

[289] And Roy Jones, at his best, was 168 pounds.

[290] And I don't know if Roy has that room in his house, mental house of where Mike Tyson goes.

[291] I don't know.

[292] I don't know if he has that room.

[293] Mike doesn't have a room.

[294] He's got an empire.

[295] there.

[296] He opens up the door.

[297] He opens up the door.

[298] There's a whole empire in his head and he's in that firmly.

[299] You know, when he got out of the weed and started training again, like you could see it in him.

[300] And by the way, physically, in person, he looks spectacular.

[301] He looks like a fucking Adonis.

[302] I mean, he looks ready to go.

[303] It's crazy.

[304] Yeah, I watch the videos of him.

[305] What about you, have you ever considered competing in Jiu -Jitsu?

[306] No, for that very reason.

[307] I don't want to get obsessed.

[308] That's my number one concern.

[309] I had to quit video games when we were playing video games to the studio.

[310] I had to quit because I was playing five hours a day, like out of nowhere.

[311] All of a sudden I was playing five hours a day.

[312] I was coming home late for dinner.

[313] I was ending podcasts early and jumping on the video games and playing.

[314] I get obsessed with things and I have to recognize what that is and these competitive things, like competitive, especially like really exciting competitive things like video games, they're very dangerous for me. The ultimate competitive video game is like Jiu -Jitsu.

[315] And if I was young, I most certainly would have done it.

[316] If I didn't have like a very clear career path, it was something that I enjoyed.

[317] My concern would be that I would become a professional Jiu -Jitsu fighter when I was young.

[318] And then I would not have the energy to do stand -up and do all the other things that I wound up doing as a career.

[319] When I was 21, I quit my job teaching.

[320] I was teaching at Boston University.

[321] I was teaching Taekwondo there.

[322] And I knew, and I also had my own school in Revere.

[323] I knew I couldn't do it, right, and also be doing stand -up comedy.

[324] I knew I couldn't do both of those things.

[325] There was no way.

[326] You have to be cognizant of that obsessive force within you to make sure.

[327] Yes.

[328] I have to know how to manage my mental illness.

[329] Right.

[330] That's a very particular mental illness.

[331] And I think that mental illness, again, my formative years, from 15 until I was, you know, 21 -ish, 22, those years were spent constantly obsessed with martial arts.

[332] That was my whole day.

[333] I mean, I trained almost every day.

[334] The only time I would not train is if I was either injured or if I was exhausted, if I needed a day off, but I was obsessed.

[335] And so that part of my personality that I haven't nurtured is always going to be there under the surface.

[336] And when it gets reignited by something.

[337] It's a very weird.

[338] It's a weird feeling.

[339] And it can get reignited with a video game.

[340] You can get reignited with anything.

[341] That obsessive, that, you know, whatever it is, that competitive demon.

[342] Yeah, the way you talk about guitar, I know you would fall in love with playing guitar, but I think you're very wise to not touch that thing.

[343] That's why I want golf.

[344] I have friends who want to golf.

[345] I'm like, I don't fucking with that thing.

[346] So a lot of people ask me, like, what's Joe Rogan's jihitsu game like like like assuming that i somehow spend uh hours rolling with you before and after we track i mean what's a good uh you should at some point show a technique or something that'll be fine sure i mean i've got what's your game like what's your game oh there i saw i saw you doing a i think had an arm uh something online yeah i did that was i fuck my neck i'm doing head and arm chokes i did him so much that i i you know because you use your neck so much with head and arms I developed like a real kink in my neck, and it turned out I had a bulging disc.

[347] And, you know.

[348] So you do it on that, just one side?

[349] Well, it was, no, I could do it on the left side, but I definitely am better on the right side.

[350] The right side was my best side.

[351] So if you were to compete, let's say, like, what's your A game?

[352] What would you go from standing up, how would you go to submission?

[353] Would you pull guard?

[354] Would you take down?

[355] How would you pass guard?

[356] I don't have good takedown.

[357] I was not a good wrestler.

[358] So I would most likely either pull guard or I would pull half guard.

[359] Do you have a good guard?

[360] Yes.

[361] Are you comfortable being on your butt on your back?

[362] Yes.

[363] I'm very flexible.

[364] So I have good.

[365] My rubber guard is pretty good.

[366] You go to rubber guard.

[367] Yeah.

[368] I have good arm bars and good triangles off my back.

[369] But I also have a very good half guard.

[370] But my top game is my best.

[371] I have a very strong top game.

[372] Do you have a half guard?

[373] Do you have a preference of like what kind of guard and how to pass that guard?

[374] and, like, yeah, like, is there a specific game plan?

[375] Like, do you...

[376] Double underhooks from Halfguard is the game plan for me. If I can get double underhooks from Halfguard, I could sweep a lot of people.

[377] Underhooks of what?

[378] Sorry, the arms or the legs?

[379] So, Halfguard, lock down, right?

[380] Halfguard, go into lockdown, double underhooks.

[381] Got it.

[382] Clinch to the body, suck the body in tight.

[383] Just pressure?

[384] And, yeah, massive pressure.

[385] And then inch my way into a position.

[386] We call the dog fight.

[387] inch my way to a position where I could get the person on their back.

[388] Yeah, that's what, because you did show me, I still disagree with you about the tie thing.

[389] The tie thing.

[390] Oh, Ty's so wrong.

[391] So wrong.

[392] Well, it's not wrong with you.

[393] With you, it's wrong.

[394] No, I think there's a system.

[395] I have this thing with Donna here.

[396] We're going to figure it out.

[397] Okay.

[398] Let's have a little Velcro in the back.

[399] No, let's see, that's, you're just not the game.

[400] You're not, you're the exactest cheating.

[401] Yeah, you did.

[402] I did feel when you showed me, I think you showed me the rubber guard, because it's still a guard that's a little bit foreign to me. I just felt that you can immediately feel, not with the rubber guard, but the way you move your body is you're like a Shanji type of guy who knows how to control another human being.

[403] So like some people are a little bit more, I would say, agile and technical, like playful and kind of loose.

[404] They work on transition, transition, transition.

[405] you're a control guy.

[406] You know how to control position and advanced position.

[407] Donahires the same way.

[408] He's all about control.

[409] My game is smush.

[410] That's my game.

[411] Smush you.

[412] Grab a hold of you.

[413] Once I have you, why would I let you go?

[414] My thought is like, why would I let you go?

[415] I just want to incrementally move to a better position until I can strangle you.

[416] But I'm much more into strangling people than anything else.

[417] Yeah, which is a great MMA approach for Jiu -Jitsu.

[418] Well, too many people don't tap when you get their arms, you know, and it's not, I'm not opposed to arm bars.

[419] I love arm bars, but everybody goes to sleep.

[420] Yep.

[421] And quit from pressure, too.

[422] I mean, quit mentally.

[423] It's nothing like that.

[424] You know, if you got a guy who's like a really good top game guy and he mounts you, and I'm a big fan of mounting with my legs crossed, you know, like a guard, like a top guard.

[425] And so I can squeeze with both legs, smush.

[426] And I'm just looking for people to make mistakes and slowly, incrementally, bettering my position until I can get something locked up.

[427] I love jih Tjitsu, though, man. I just wish it didn't injure you.

[428] Yeah.

[429] You know, jih Tjitsu is like, if your joints were more durable, they could figure out a way to make joints more durable.

[430] God, I could do jih Tjitsu forever.

[431] Yeah.

[432] It's so much fun.

[433] I actually talked to this roboticist, Russ Tadrake, he builds, one of the world -class people that builds humanoid robots.

[434] You're interested in Boston Dynamics.

[435] He's one of the key people in that kind of robotics.

[436] So I asked them the stupidest question of, like, how far are we from having a robot be a UFC champion?

[437] And, yeah, it's actually a really, really tough problem.

[438] It's the same thing that makes somebody like Danielle Comey on the wrestling side special because you have to understand the movement of the human body in ways that's so difficult to teach.

[439] It's so subtle.

[440] The timing, the pressure points, like the leverage, all those kinds of things.

[441] That's just for the clinch situation.

[442] And then the movement for the striking is very difficult.

[443] As long as you're not allowed as a robot to like use your natural abilities of having a lot more power.

[444] Right.

[445] A lot more power and more durable.

[446] Right.

[447] The human body, like especially meniscus.

[448] Like you see the heel hook game.

[449] Like everybody's involved in leg locks and heel hooks.

[450] Like, all that.

[451] those guys wind up with torched knees.

[452] Everyone's got torched knees.

[453] Everyone's knees are torn apart.

[454] And you don't grow new meniscus.

[455] That's like one of those joints where, man, when it goes, those guys are 28 years old, who have blown out knees.

[456] Let me ask the ridiculous question.

[457] What do you think, we're talking about cops.

[458] What do you think is the best martial arts for self -defense?

[459] For sure, Jiu -Jitsu.

[460] Yeah, for sure.

[461] Wrestling?

[462] I think grappling, I should say.

[463] What judo is well, especially in a cold climate if you get someone who's got like a heavy winter jacket on my god judo is an incredible much concrete that's the worst place to be with a heavy winter jacket with a judo specialist and you're standing up with them oh my god um but i think grappling because in most self -defense situations it usually winds up with grappling you're definitely better off though knowing some striking because there's nothing more terrifying than when you go to take someone down they actually have takedown skills but they can fight and so they have takedown defense and they know how to fight and then you don't know how to stand up like the worst thing in the world is seeing someone like reaching who doesn't know how to do striking and someone cracks you what about all that Krav Maga talk which is like you know the whole line of argument that says that jihitsu and wrestling and all of these sports they fundamentally take you away from the nature of violence so they're just teaching you how to play versus the reality of violence that is involved in like a self -defense situation that is a totally different set of skills would be needed.

[464] In general, the people that say that jiu -jitsu or other martial arts don't, it's more of a sport and they don't really understand violence, in general, the people that say that suck.

[465] Yeah.

[466] Anybody who thinks, like, someone's like, you know, hey man, I'll just bite you.

[467] I'm like, are you going to bite me?

[468] Okay.

[469] Do you think I'm going to bite you too?

[470] What do you think of that?

[471] What if I punch you in your fucking face?

[472] You think you're still going to bite me when you can't even see?

[473] When you're you barely even know you're alive and I choke you unconscious.

[474] If someone's really good at jujitsu, good luck stabbing them with your keys.

[475] You know, you don't have a chance.

[476] You don't have a chance.

[477] If someone's much better at you and they trip you and get you on your back and then they fucking elbow you in your face and get a head and arm choke on you, all that crop my gosh shit's out the window, son.

[478] you're way better off learning what works on trained killers.

[479] Like this whole idea that you're going to poke someone in the eye and then you're going to kick him in the nuts and you're going through these drills that, yeah, it's good to know what to do if you run into someone who doesn't know how to fight.

[480] It's way better to know what to do to someone who knows how to fight.

[481] That's the best thing.

[482] Learn how to fight against people who know how to fight.

[483] Like all that practice self -defense and they're going to come at you with it.

[484] if you're going to grab the wrist and do that.

[485] Like, it's good to know self -defense.

[486] But it's much more important to understand martial arts comprehensively.

[487] When you understand martial arts comprehensively, like, there's no crop, I shouldn't say there's no Krav Magan guys, but it would be shocking if a Krav Maga guy and a mixed martial arts guy had a fight and the mixed martial arts guy who was a trained killer all around didn't fuck that guy up.

[488] That's what I would expect would have.

[489] I would not think that some guy who has a little bit of this and a little bit of that and prepares for the streets is going to be able to handle a person who trains with killers on a day -to -day basis who rolls with Jiu -Jitsu blackpels, who trains with Muay champions.

[490] Like, the best martial arts are the martial arts that work on martial artists, not the martial arts that work on untrained people.

[491] What about, we're in Texas now.

[492] What about guns?

[493] Well, that's the best martial art. No, but would you, like in this crazy time, should people carry guns?

[494] It's not a bad idea to have a gun, because if you need a gun, you have a gun.

[495] And if you don't need a gun, if you're a person with self -control, you're not going to use it.

[496] You're not going to just randomly use it, but you have something to protect you.

[497] This is the whole idea of the Second Amendment.

[498] The whole idea of the Second Amendment gets distorted by mass shootings or by terrible people who murder people and do terrible things.

[499] But it's that all those things are real, but they don't take away from the fundamental efficacy of having a firearm and defending your family or defending your life.

[500] And there are real live situations where people have had firearms and it's protected them or their loved ones or they've stopped shooters.

[501] There's many of these stories, but people don't like those stories because then it, it tends to lead to this gun culture argument as pro -gun culture argument.

[502] argument that people find very uncomfortable.

[503] It's, it's human beings are messy.

[504] And we're messy in so many different ways, right?

[505] We're messy emotionally.

[506] We're messy, messy physically.

[507] But we're also messy in what's good or bad.

[508] We want things to be binary.

[509] We want things to be right or wrong, you know, one or zero.

[510] And they're not.

[511] But, but there is crime in the world.

[512] There is violence in the world.

[513] And you're better off knowing how to fight.

[514] And you're better off knowing how to defend yourself, and you're better off having a gun.

[515] I generally think that guns, I do like the idea that guns, Second Amendment helps protect the First Amendment.

[516] There's a kind of sense that puts me at ease knowing that so many people in this country have guns that, I mean, Alex Jones, I just listened to one episode of Info Wars for the first time.

[517] Boy, he reminds me, like, when I drank some tequila, I felt like I'm going to some dark places today.

[518] That's how I feel like listening to him.

[519] But he talks about like that it's, he worries about martial law.

[520] So basically government overreach by, which happened throughout history.

[521] Like there's, there's something to worry about there.

[522] But it's, it puts me at ease knowing that so much of the population has guns that people, government would think twice before, uh, instituting martial law cities but I actually was asking almost like on the individual level I maybe shouldn't say this but I don't yet own a gun and I felt that if I carry a gun statistically just for me as a human knowing my psychology I feel like I'm more likely to die like I feel like I would put myself in situations that I shouldn't like the way I will see the world will change because my natural feeling is like when somebody, when I was in Philly and I knew late at night, if West Philly, when some guy looks at you, you can immediately calculate that this is a dangerous human being.

[523] It starts with a monkey look at first.

[524] Like, I'm a bigger monkey than you.

[525] And that's where I found like, for example, I'll do the beta thing of just looking down and turning away and just getting out of trouble, like very politely.

[526] And basically that kind of approach.

[527] Because if you have, in terms of getting out of serious violent situations, like serious, something where you could die, versus if I had a gun, I feel like I would want to be, that there would be that cowboy monkey thing where I would want to put myself in situations, where I'm a little bit of a savior, even of myself, and almost create danger which can no longer, like, the escalation of which I can no longer control.

[528] Well, you're talking about taking a gun somewhere versus having a gun in your home.

[529] Yes, yes, I mean carry -on -me.

[530] That's a different situation, and much harder to get a warrant or a license for that.

[531] You know, control, concealed carry licenses, especially in Massachusetts, they don't come easy.

[532] Well, message, yeah, that's a whole other thing.

[533] You're saying gun in the home.

[534] Yeah, gun in the home.

[535] Having a gun, knowing how to use a gun.

[536] Like, I know how to use a gun.

[537] I've trained, you know, many hours, learning how to shoot a gun at tactical places.

[538] You know, there's a bunch of videos of me doing it on Instagram.

[539] I practice, and I think it's good to understand, to how to be accurate.

[540] So I've been a fan of your podcast for a long time.

[541] You don't often talk about it, because you're always kind of looking forward, but if you look at the old studio, they just left, is there some epic memories that stand out to you that, like, you almost look back, I can't believe this happened?

[542] Oh, yeah, almost too many of them to count.

[543] Is there something that pops into mind now?

[544] All of them, Elon Musk, blowing that, flame thrower in the middle of the hallway.

[545] I got a video of that.

[546] Have you seen the video of it?

[547] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[548] I think you post on Instagram.

[549] I think I did too.

[550] Yeah, he's a madman.

[551] Having Bernie Sanders in there, you know, just all the fun fight companions we did and all the crazy podcast with Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell and there was so many.

[552] There were so many moments, you know, it's, um, podcast is, this is a weird art form and it almost seems like, it sounds silly, but it almost seems like something that chose me rather than I chose it.

[553] I think of that all the time in some strange way.

[554] It's like I'm showing up as like an antenna and I just plug in and twist on and then I take in the thing and I put it together and I'm like a passenger of this weird ride.

[555] Yeah, you've talked about this before.

[556] I really like this idea of that human beings are just carriers of these ideas.

[557] Yeah.

[558] Ideas are the ones who are breeding yeah in a sense like the idea found you as a useful brain to use to spread itself through the podcasting medium yeah something that's a on the but did because when I think about your podcast I think about Joey Diaz I think about all those comedians you've had I mean I think you've had Joey on I mean maybe close to I don't 50 times 60 some crazy number is there I mean he is over the top offensive just that who he is to the core, is there some sense where you wondered, like, whether it's right to have the Spotify episode number one with Duncan Dressel for five hours?

[559] No. I wanted to do it that way.

[560] That's why we wore NASA suits and we got high as fuck.

[561] It's like, that's the whole idea behind it.

[562] I mean, can you introspect that a little bit?

[563] Like, can you think, like, what is that?

[564] Because that's rare.

[565] It's such a rare thing to do because you're not supposed to talk to Duncan Trussell with a huge platform that you have five hours.

[566] Why not?

[567] Because Donald Trump apparently watches your podcast.

[568] So just the idea that there's these, I mean, that's what I think about, you know, these CEOs write to me that they listen to the podcast that I do.

[569] And I have somebody like a David Fravor.

[570] And I was nervous about it.

[571] I was nervous to have a conversation.

[572] For me, David Fravor is a Duncan Trussell, which is like...

[573] Just because of his experiences with UFOs.

[574] Yeah.

[575] Even just the way he sees the world, because he is open...

[576] I don't know if he's always like this, but he opened himself to the possibility of unconventional ideas.

[577] Most people in the scientific community kind of say, well, I don't really want to believe anything that doesn't have a lot of hard evidence.

[578] Right.

[579] And so that was to me like a step.

[580] And as the thing somehow becomes more popular, there becomes this fear of like, well, should I talk to this person or not?

[581] And I mean, you're an inspiration in saying like, do whatever the hell you want.

[582] You have to.

[583] First of all, I have what you call fuck you money.

[584] And if you have fuck you money, you don't say fuck you, what's the point of having the fuck you money?

[585] You're wasting it.

[586] Like you're wasting the position.

[587] Like someone said to me like, why do you like sports car so much?

[588] Like, how many cars do you have, a bunch of cars?

[589] Because if I was a kid and I said, hey, if I was that crazy, rich, famous guy, like, I don't want to have a bunch of cool fucking cars.

[590] Like, so I would do that.

[591] Like, because not everybody gets to do that.

[592] Like, if you're the person that gets to do that, you're kind of supposed to do it.

[593] Like, that's, if you want to, if that really does speak to you.

[594] And, you know, I've talked to you about this before, muscle cars, specifically once for the 1960s and the early 70s, they speak to me in some weird way man i could just stare at them like i have a 65 corvette i walk around it sometimes at night when no one's around i just stare at it what's your favorite muscle car like what's your most badass late 60s the perfect car probably that car probably that 65 corvette yeah i walk around it when no one's around i think i've drawn the 69 corvette is there a particular year that uh just 65 is uh generation two 69 is generation three six six six The 69 is like the, it's even more curvy.

[595] They're both awesome, just awesome in different ways.

[596] But I just love muscle cars for whatever reason.

[597] But the point is, like, I like what I like.

[598] And if I can do what I want to do, I should do what I want to do.

[599] And it's not hurting anybody.

[600] And the thing is, like, I would do the Duncan podcast if no one was listening, right?

[601] If we were just starting to do a podcast together and no one cared and got like 2 ,000 views, which we did for years, I would do it with Duncan.

[602] we would get high and we'd talk crazy shit about aliens and spaceships and maybe dude maybe ideas are living life forms and they're inside your head and that's how things get man man I've just kind of morphed me and him together and that because the life form idea life form idea is mine that I've really I really think about a lot I think about on a technical side by the way I got I when I heard you say that because I've been thinking I was like a whoa that's interesting that it might be they might be alive because I don't know what the fuck they are, but when someone has an idea for, you know, whatever, an invention, a toaster, and then they think about this, all I'd need is like these heating elements in the spring, and then it pops on this done, so have a timer, and then they build this thing.

[603] Now all of a sudden it's alive.

[604] It's like you manifested it in a physical form.

[605] A toaster is not the best example, but a car, an airplane, you're thinking about a thing, like an idea comes into your head.

[606] And you can say, oh, well, it's just creativity.

[607] It's a part of being a person.

[608] It's how we invented tools and how, you know, we became better hunters.

[609] All those things are true.

[610] I'm not saying that there's some magic to what I'm saying.

[611] But there's also a possibility that we're simplifying something by saying that it's just creativity, that it's just a natural human inclination to invent things.

[612] But why?

[613] Is it possible that ideas, like creativity, like, we are the only animal other than there's a few species that create things like bees, make beehives, but they're very uniform.

[614] You know, some animals use tools, you know, like, you know, chimps will use, like, sticks to get termites and things like that.

[615] But there's something about what we do that's, it makes you.

[616] wonder because we look at the skit just look at this room that we're in look at all these electronics look at all this crazy shit that human beings have invented and then built upon others inventions improved and innovated these all came out of ideas like the the idea it germinates in someone's head it bounces around they write it down they share it with others the other people who have similar ideas or ideas that are complementary they work together and they change the world.

[617] And the new thing in that is the idea is not the people.

[618] It's like we think we found the ideas, but it's more like the ideas found us.

[619] Find you.

[620] Yeah.

[621] They're literally in the air.

[622] Yeah.

[623] They come to you.

[624] I always felt like that with bits.

[625] Like when I come up with a bit, that's why I'm always telling people about the Stephen Pressfield book, The War of Art, because he talks about respecting the muse and the idea that your ideas come when you sit down.

[626] and you do the work, or you sit down like a professional and you talk to the muse.

[627] Like, tell me what to do.

[628] Like, if the muse was a real thing, as if a muse is like some mystical creature that comes and delivers you ideas, even if that's not real, that's how it works.

[629] Yeah.

[630] It does work like that.

[631] If you do treat it like it's a muse and you treat it with the respect and you treat it like a professional, the ideas do come to you.

[632] I never thought about what he's doing is just sitting there waiting for the idea that's trying to breed to find him yeah there's that's a that's a that's a trippy thing if you show up if you show up and put in the time and focus your energy on that the the ideas they will arrive they will arrive and that's the same with writing comedy like this has been many many times where i'll come home from the comedy store and i just sit down and i start writing and i just i've got nothing there's nothing there i'm just writing it's all bullshit it's nothing's good it's just like hmm and then all of a sudden bam there's the idea and then all of a sudden i can't stop and then you know it's a couple hours later and i'm like whoa and then the next night i'm on stage and i'm like how about that boom it gets this big laugh i'm like holy shit and i know that came out of the discipline to sit down and call the muse i mean the cool thing is the ideas have found you to like oh i'm going to use this dude like he seems to have a podcast that's pipe though.

[633] I'm going to breed inside his brain and spread it to others.

[634] Yeah.

[635] It's the same or an inventor.

[636] You know, I'm going to use this guy who's like desperately seeking some sort of a product to bring to market.

[637] Some guy who wants to invent things.

[638] It's thinking about inventing things all the time.

[639] Like these ideas, they weasel their way into your head.

[640] And it seems to me also that the frequency that your mind operates under has to be correct.

[641] Because one of things about creativity seems to be if you think about yourself a lot, if you're really into yourself or your image or you're selfish, those ideas are not, they don't find you.

[642] Yeah, it's funny.

[643] It stifles the creative, yeah, yeah.

[644] It stifles the opportunity that the idea has for defining.

[645] Yes, which is one of the reasons why joke thieves, people that steal jokes are terrible writers.

[646] There's never like really good writers who are also joke thieves.

[647] It's just joke thieves and then, you know, when they have to write on their own, if they get exposed, they become terrible comedians.

[648] They're a shadow of what they were when they were stealing other people's ideas.

[649] Because the thing that would make you steal a person's idea is that ego part.

[650] The, like, the wanting to claim it for yourself, the wanting to be the man, or the woman, you know, you want to be the person who gets out there and says it and everybody's going to love me for it.

[651] Like, you can't think like that and be creative.

[652] It requires.

[653] requires a humility and it requires a detachment from self in order to create.

[654] Like when I'm writing, I'm blank.

[655] I'm like, I'm just staring.

[656] I'm like, I'm just, the part of my mind that's active is not like me. It's like this weird core function part where I'm not, I'm not aware of my personality.

[657] I'm not aware.

[658] I'm not aware of anything.

[659] I'm just trying to put it together in a way that I know works.

[660] Just being there, being present.

[661] I'm a big believer just sitting there.

[662] Even staring at a blank page, just putting in the time.

[663] Yeah, and sometimes it's not that way.

[664] Sometimes it's an inspiration.

[665] Like sometimes I'll be sitting there at dinner and I'll be like, I've got an idea.

[666] And my wife's really cool about that.

[667] I'm like, I have an idea and I have to just run out of the room real quick and I write it down on my phone and then I can come back.

[668] Because those are like little gifts that you get sometimes from the universe.

[669] out of nowhere.

[670] And some people rely only on those gifts.

[671] You know, and I've talked to comics about it.

[672] They're like, oh, I get, come on my best ideas when I don't write.

[673] I'm like, no, I do too.

[674] I come up with great ideas when I don't write.

[675] But I also write.

[676] Like, you can do both of those things.

[677] They're not mutually exclusive.

[678] You mentioned fuck you money.

[679] I feel like I have fuck you money now.

[680] A year ago, I was at zero.

[681] I have fuck you money now because probably my standard is my, I don't need much in this world.

[682] but because also, probably because of you, but it's 300 to 400 ,000 people, isn't every episode I do.

[683] That's a lot.

[684] And that result is weird.

[685] That's a successful television show on cable.

[686] Yeah, it's crazy.

[687] It's all you.

[688] Yeah, it's hilarious.

[689] That's amazing.

[690] But at this point, that also resulted in a few money in a sense that I don't, you know, I don't need anything else in this world.

[691] But so by way of asking, I've looked up, You've inspired me for a long time.

[692] Do you have advice, you've done this on the podcast side of life?

[693] Do you have advice for somebody like, for me and somebody like me going on this journey?

[694] Eric Weinstein is going on this journey.

[695] Is there advice, both small and big, that you have for somebody like me?

[696] The advice is to keep doing what feels right to you and do what you're doing, obviously, It's resonating with people if you're getting that big of an audience.

[697] And I've listened to your podcast.

[698] You're very good at it.

[699] So just keep doing it the way you're doing it.

[700] Don't let anybody else get involved.

[701] What about you've connected?

[702] I think you met Jamie at the Comedy Store.

[703] I met him at the Ice House.

[704] At the Ice House?

[705] Well, I think I met him at the Comedy Store, but then we talked at the Ice House.

[706] I mean, what...

[707] She'd have to ask him.

[708] Yeah.

[709] Did you think deeply about...

[710] Because, like, you know, you basically have nobody on your team.

[711] and so it almost feels like a marriage were you selective about like somebody to bring into your little circle well Jamie's exceptional he is he truly isn't he's a special I mean he might have grown I don't remember how he was in the early days maybe you could say but he was definitely better at it but right away he's exceptional he's got very little ego he's not a guy who needs a lot of attention he's not a guy who overestimates anything like in terms of like negative or positive like his like his interpretation of whether it's good things that happen to the show or bad things that happen to show he just takes it all like flat he's chill he's just cool as fuck and he's so smart and he's so good as an audio engineer and as a podcast producer he's the best but he's basically one of the only people on this whole team So, how do you find, I mean, when you let people in, I mean, I'm sure other people wanted to get involved.

[712] Like, why don't you have a co -host?

[713] Like, you basically kind of, well.

[714] Well, here's the problem with the co -host.

[715] Like, when you and I are talking, when we're talking, I'm tuned in to you.

[716] And I'm waiting to hear what you're saying, and I'm listening, and I'm interpreting it.

[717] And then I'm calculating whether or not I have anything to say, whether to let you keep talking.

[718] whether I maybe have a question that lets you expand further or whether I have a disagreement or like there's a dance that's going on.

[719] Now when there's another person there chiming in too, it fucks the dance up.

[720] It's like dancing, like if you're doing a dance with someone, you know, like if you're slow dancing with someone.

[721] And then a third person's there stepping on every feet.

[722] Sometimes it's fun.

[723] Sometimes having a third person is fun.

[724] Comedy podcast.

[725] Sometimes it's fun.

[726] Debate.

[727] Kind of structured.

[728] Yeah.

[729] Debate structures.

[730] But even then, it gets difficult because people talk over each other.

[731] And also, I find that without headphones, it's way easier to talk over each other.

[732] You make mistakes.

[733] You don't hear it the same way.

[734] When you have headphones, I hear what you hear.

[735] It's all one sound.

[736] And the audience hears exactly, or rather, I hear exactly what the audience hears.

[737] Whether it's over here, my voice is louder than yours because you're over there.

[738] And if I don't have headphones on, on it doesn't it's not all together on that point one of the interesting things about your show is uh you don't almost never have done and you generally don't do remote like um sorry not remote calls but you don't go to another person's location like you have only done a few a small handful and then just like well the sepalski he should be yeah he should do this but i actually we went back and forth on email i told him he used to get your his ass back in in this in this studio uh he's working on a book i was a fan of his is a long time ago because I became obsessed with toxoplasmosis, you know, and I, I've reached out to him a long time ago before he was willing to do it, but then I caught him in downtown L .A. He was there for something else, and I just greedily snatched up an hour of his time.

[739] Well, he doesn't get, I think, some of those folks don't get how much magic can happen in this podcast studio, like bigger than anything they've ever done in terms of their work.

[740] I mean, not talking about reach, but in terms of the discovery of new ideas.

[741] There's something magical about conversation.

[742] Like, that, like somebody as brilliant as him, if he gives himself over to the conversation for multiple hours at a time, that's another place where you've been in inspiration, where I, like, you know, I'm getting more and more confidence of telling people, like, in Elon Musk that, like, you know, a lot of CEOs are like, well, he has 30 minutes on his schedule.

[743] I'm like, no, three hours.

[744] So, and then they're like, so some say no, and then they come back.

[745] There's people have started coming back to like, okay, we're starting to get it.

[746] They start to get it.

[747] And you're a rare beacon of hope in that sense that there's some value in long form.

[748] They think that nobody wants to listen for more than 30 minutes.

[749] They think, like, I have nothing to say.

[750] But the reality is, if you just give yourself over to, like, the three hours, just let go three hours four hours whatever it is there's so much to discover about what you didn't even know you think yeah yeah you have to be confident that you could do it and in the beginning i just did it because that's what i wanted to do and no one was listening so i've always been a curious person so i've always i've always been interested in listening to how people think about things and how and talking to people about their mindset and just expanding on my own ideas and just talking shit.

[751] And so we would have these podcasts and they would go on forever.

[752] And my friend Ari, I've never let him die down, never let him forget this.

[753] He was always like, you have to edit your podcast.

[754] I'm telling you right now you're fucking up.

[755] I go, why?

[756] He's like, because people are not going to listen to it.

[757] I go, they don't have to.

[758] Yeah.

[759] I go, you listen to part of it.

[760] He goes, He goes, just do it.

[761] Just, I'm telling you, trust me, cut it down like 45 minutes.

[762] It's all you need.

[763] And I'm like, no, no, I don't think you're right.

[764] I go, I like listening to long -form things.

[765] No one has that kind of time.

[766] I go, okay, I'm just going to keep doing it this way.

[767] And it's a stick to your gut.

[768] No, he doesn't.

[769] He doesn't.

[770] His are like two and a half hours long now.

[771] That's great.

[772] You won.

[773] But you wouldn't, like, say, I mentioned to you before, and this is going to happen.

[774] It's actually made a lot of progress towards it.

[775] I'm going to talk to Putin.

[776] But you wouldn't travel to Putin if you want to talk to you.

[777] Putin is a dangerous character.

[778] He's not.

[779] He's not.

[780] You've seen the thing with Jerry Kraft where they stole his Super Bowl ring?

[781] Yeah.

[782] Yeah, those.

[783] I think that was a little bit of misunderstanding.

[784] Oh, really?

[785] I think it's a little bit.

[786] He just decided he's going to steal that Super Bowl ring.

[787] Kind of.

[788] I think there was a...

[789] Kind of.

[790] He thought, can I see your ring?

[791] He shows him his ring and then he puts it on and says, I can murder somebody with this ring.

[792] And then he walks off with it.

[793] It's possible he did it.

[794] as a he's a big believer in displays of power yeah so like it's possible he did that but on i think he sees himself as like a tool with which to demonstrate that russia still belongs on the stage of the big players and so he a lot of actions selected through that lens but in terms of a human being outside of any of the evils that he may may not have done He is a really thoughtful, intelligent, fun human being, like the wit.

[795] And the depth from the JRE perspective is really interesting.

[796] I'm like his manager now selling.

[797] He's a judo guy.

[798] He's really good at judo.

[799] I have seen him practice judo.

[800] He's a legit black belt.

[801] And not only that, he loves it, not just skill -wise, but to talk about it, to reason about it, to think about it, to M .MA as well.

[802] So, you know, it'd be a good conversation.

[803] But you wouldn't travel to him.

[804] Well, that's hold to your principle.

[805] So that's the core of the advice.

[806] Just hold to whatever.

[807] I would rather, here's the thing.

[808] There's not a person that I have to have on the show.

[809] And I'm happy to talk to anybody.

[810] I'm just as happy to talk to you as I am to talk to Trump, as I am to probably more happy to talk to you, as I am to talk to Mike Tyson, as I am to talk to.

[811] talk to Joey Diaz.

[812] I like talking to people.

[813] I enjoy doing podcasts.

[814] I enjoy talking to a variety of people.

[815] And I schedule them based on, I want to like, I try not to get too many right -wing people in a row or too many progressive people in a row.

[816] I don't want to get repetitive.

[817] I try not get too many fighters in a row.

[818] I try to balance it out.

[819] Not too many comedians.

[820] Comedians are the one group where I can have three, four in a row, five in a row, because that's my tribe.

[821] You know, those are my people.

[822] It's easy.

[823] We're can talk about anything.

[824] It's a weird dance, you know.

[825] The conversations that you're doing on a podcast are, they're a strange dance.

[826] And you want to, you know, you want to not step on your own feet, and you want to make sure that you do it in a way, do the podcast in a way that's entertaining for people.

[827] And it's, it's a, it's a, conversations are learning how to talk to be.

[828] It's a weird skill.

[829] It's a weird skill that took a long time for me to get good at.

[830] And I didn't know it was a skill until I started doing it.

[831] And then I just thought you were just talking.

[832] Like, I know how to talk.

[833] We just talk to people.

[834] And then along the way, I realized like, oh.

[835] And then when you talk to people that are bad at it, you realize that it's a skill.

[836] Like particularly, one of the things about my people, about comedians, is a lot of them tend to want to talk, but don't want to listen.

[837] Right.

[838] So they're waiting for you to stop talking so they can talk, but they're not necessarily thinking about what you're saying.

[839] you know and they're just waiting for their opportunity or they talk over you or they and I try real hard not to do that and sometimes I fail but my when I'm at my best I'm I'm dancing yeah ultimately the skill conversation is just really listening mm -hmm like really and listening and thinking listening and thinking and being like genuinely curious and and really having um uh you know a take on what they're saying and and a and a and a maybe a follow -up question or maybe, you know, just got to, it's got to be real.

[840] It's got to be authentic.

[841] And when it is authentic and it's real, it resonates to people.

[842] Like, they're listening and they go, oh, like, I'm locked in with the way you're thinking.

[843] Like, you two guys are in a conversation and I'm locked in, you know, when she talks and you listen, I'm listening to, you know, when he says something to her or when she says something to him, like there's a thing that happens during conversations where you're there.

[844] Like, you're listening to a, and it's with me, when I listen to a good podcast, I feel like I'm in the room.

[845] I feel like I'm in the room and I'm like the friend that got to sit down and listen.

[846] Like, oh, yeah, that's a great conversation.

[847] You know, I love conversations.

[848] So I love listening to them and I love putting them together.

[849] And the fact that this podcast has gotten so fucking big, it's stunning to me. It blows me away.

[850] I never anticipated it, never thought for a second that that stupid thing that I used to do in my couch, in my office, was the biggest thing I've ever done in my life by far.

[851] Like, people used to make fun of it.

[852] Like, there's a comedy store documentary that's coming out.

[853] And one of the parts of the documentaries, my friend Tom Segura, when he first started doing my podcast, he would be leaving and he would talk to Red Band.

[854] He's like, what the fuck is he doing?

[855] Yeah.

[856] Like, why is he doing this?

[857] Like, who's listening?

[858] He's like, oh, some people like it.

[859] And it's like fucking nonsense, waste of time.

[860] And like in the documentary shows like 2 ,000 views, like one of the early Ustream episodes.

[861] It's hilarious.

[862] And they don't just like it really.

[863] They form a friendship with you.

[864] It's like even me when people come up to me, like the love in their eyes is kind of beautiful.

[865] It's weird, right?

[866] Yeah, it's like...

[867] You're part of their life.

[868] Yeah.

[869] And I don't know, it's also heartbreaking because you realize you'll never really get to know them.

[870] back like because they they clearly are friends with you yes yeah and it's sad to see a person who's clearly brilliant and interesting and it's friends with you but you don't get a chance to return that love and uh my kids it took them a while to figure out what's going on but uh people would come up to me and uh you know they would say something like hey man i fucking love you thanks man all right hey brother nice to meet you my daughter was like six you'd be like do you know him?

[871] I'm like, no, I don't know him.

[872] She's like, how does he know you?

[873] This very weird conversation I used to have with young kids when I'd explain, I'd do this thing called a podcast and millions of people listen.

[874] So now one of my daughters is 12 and one of her friends is 13 and he's a boy and he goes to school with her and he's obsessed with me. And so she's weirded out and she says to him, I don't even think you like me. I think you're just into my dad, you fucking weirdo.

[875] She's going to have that conversation in a few stages in her life.

[876] Probably.

[877] That hard conversation with a boyfriend.

[878] Yeah, probably.

[879] Yeah.

[880] Well, that's the thing about men, too.

[881] This podcast is, my podcast, is uniquely masculine.

[882] I'm a man and I'm not, I'm also a man that doesn't have to go through some sort of a corporate filter.

[883] I'm not going through executive producers who tell me, don't, don't have this guest on.

[884] Don't talk about that.

[885] You know, we looked at focus groups, and they don't seem to like when you do this.

[886] Like, there's none of that.

[887] I just, and I, I just do it.

[888] So if that's, so I have a whole podcast where I just talk about cars.

[889] And people are, I don't want to hear you talk about cars.

[890] Well, good.

[891] You found what you like.

[892] Here's good news.

[893] There's 1 ,500 other ones.

[894] Go listen to the other episodes where I don't talk about cars.

[895] You don't, you don't have to listen.

[896] And it's not like your brand.

[897] You just are who you are, and that's what you do.

[898] But it's like it's authentically what I'm interested in, all the podcasts, whether I'm talking to David Fravor about his experience with UFOs, whether I'm talking to David Sinclair about life extension, whether I'm talking to you about artificial intelligence or whatever.

[899] It's because I want to talk to these people.

[900] And that resonates.

[901] I like when people are into shit.

[902] You know, I've talked about this before, like things that I have no interest in making furniture, but I like this PBS show.

[903] where this guy makes furniture by hand.

[904] I love watching it.

[905] Because he's so into it.

[906] Is he sanding this and polishing it?

[907] I'm not going to do that.

[908] I don't give a fuck about furniture.

[909] Furniture for me is function, like this desk.

[910] Function works, but I love when people are into it.

[911] You know, and I'm happy that someone can make it and they do a great job.

[912] But I'm not interested in the task or even the finished product as much as I'm interested in someone's passion for something.

[913] The passion that they've put into this.

[914] that shines through.

[915] Last question.

[916] I sometimes ask this just for to, what is it, to challenge, to make people roll their eyes, to make legitimate scientists roll their eyes.

[917] Ask, what is the meaning of life?

[918] According to Joe Rogan.

[919] I do not think there is a meaning.

[920] I think there's many, many meanings of life.

[921] I think there's a way to navigate life that's enjoyable.

[922] I think it requires many things.

[923] It requires, first of all, it requires love.

[924] You have to have loved ones.

[925] You have to have family.

[926] You have to have friends.

[927] You have to have people that care about you and you have to care about them.

[928] I think that is primary.

[929] Then it also requires interests.

[930] There has to be things that stimulate you.

[931] Now, it could be just a subsistence lifestyle.

[932] There's many people that believe and practice this lifestyle of just living off the land and hunting and fishing and living in the woods.

[933] and they seem incredibly happy.

[934] Yeah.

[935] And there's something to be said for that.

[936] That is an interest, right?

[937] There's something, and there's a direct connection between their actions and their sustenance.

[938] They get their food that way.

[939] They're connected to nature, and it's very satisfying for them.

[940] If you don't have that, I think you need something that is interesting to you, something that you're passionate about.

[941] And there's far too many people that get sucked into living a life where you're, just doing a job you're just showing up and putting in your time and then going home but you don't have a passion for what you're doing and i think that is that's the recipe for a boring and very unfulfilling life you mentioned love if it could just backtrack what uh we talked about the demons and the violence in there somewhere what's the role of love in this in your own life it's very important, man. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so, I'm so interested in helping people.

[942] I'm very interested in people feeling good.

[943] I like them to feel good.

[944] I want to help them.

[945] I like doing things that make them feel like, oh, you care about me. Like, yeah, I care about you.

[946] I really do.

[947] Like, I want people to feel good.

[948] I want my family to feel good.

[949] I want my friends to feel good.

[950] I want guests to feel good about the podcast experience.

[951] You know, I am, I'm a big believer in as much as I can to spread positive energy and joy and happiness and relay all the good advice that I've ever gotten.

[952] All the things that I've learned and if they can benefit people, then I find that those things benefit people and that actually improve the quality of their life or improve their success or improve their relationships or I'm very happy to do that.

[953] That means a lot to me. The way we interact with each other is so important.

[954] It's one of the reasons why, like, if someone gets canceled or you get publicly shamed, it's so devastating because there's all these people that negative, all this negative energy coming your way.

[955] And you feel it.

[956] As much as I like to pretend that you're immune to that kind of stuff and some people do like to pretend that, you feel it.

[957] There's a tangible force when people are upset at you.

[958] And that's the same with loved ones or family or anytime someone's upset at you, whether it's a giant group of people or there's a small amount of people.

[959] That has an impact on you and your psyche and your physical being.

[960] So the more you can spread love and the more love comes back to you, you also create this butterfly effect, right, where other people start recognizing like, oh, you know, when he's nice to me, I feel better and I'm going to be nicer to people.

[961] And when I'm nicer to people, they feel better and I feel better.

[962] And it spreads outward.

[963] And that's one thing that I've done through this podcast, I think, is I've imparted my personal philosophy in kindness and generosity to other people.

[964] Yeah, I mean, to correct you, you didn't do it.

[965] The ideas that are breeding themselves through your brain have figured out.

[966] Yes, the ideas that are alive in the air that made their way into my head.

[967] Love is a more efficient mechanism of spreading ideas they figured out.

[968] Yes.

[969] Probably, man. Probably.

[970] So as far as like the meaning of life, that's a big, without that you have nothing.

[971] You know, one of the biggest failures in life is to be extremely successful financially, but everybody hates you.

[972] Everybody hates you and you're just miserable and alone and angry and depressed and sad.

[973] You know, when you hear about rich, famous people that commit suicide, like, wow, you've missed the mark.

[974] You got some parts right, but you put too many eggs in one basket.

[975] you put too many eggs in the financial basket or the success basket or the accomplishment basket and not enough in the friendship and love basket and there's a balance to that and uh when i talked about the violence and all that stuff like that to me is me understanding recognizing that is me trying to achieve that balance it's to like go kill those demons so that this boat is level you know because if it's not then the boat is like this and then everything's all fucked up and every time we hit a wave, things fall apart.

[976] Balance that boat out, figure it out.

[977] Like, know who you are.

[978] Some people don't have that problem at all.

[979] Some people, they could just go for walks and they're cool as a cucumber.

[980] I need more.

[981] You know, I need kettlebells.

[982] I need a heavy bag.

[983] I need the echo bike, you know, the air assault bike.

[984] I need some hardcore shit.

[985] And if I don't get that, I don't feel good.

[986] So I figured that out too.

[987] And that makes me a nicer person.

[988] And that makes my interactions nicer.

[989] It changes the quality of my friendships and my relationships with people.

[990] I think we mentioned Neurilink.

[991] I can certainly guarantee that this is one of the memories I'll be replaying 20, 30 years from now once we get the feature ready.

[992] Joe, it's a huge honor to talk to you.

[993] It's an honor to talk to you too, man. I'm glad you came down here for this.

[994] The first week of me doing this here, and it's very cool to have you always.

[995] I hope you make Texas cool again and do your podcast another 10, 11, whatever, however many years you're still on this earth.

[996] All right.

[997] Thank you, brother.

[998] Appreciate you, man. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Joe Rogan.

[999] A thank you to our sponsors, Neuro, Ate Sleep, and Dollar Shave Club.

[1000] Check them out in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.

[1001] If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, or view it with five stars on Apple Podcast.

[1002] on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

[1003] And now let me leave you with some words of wisdom from Joe Rogan.

[1004] The universe rewards, calculative risk, and passion.

[1005] Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.