Ed Yong (on animal senses)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair, expert experts on expert.

[1] I'm Ed Young and I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

[2] Monica Old.

[3] Monica Old.

[4] Our guest is Ed Yong.

[5] Ed Yong is so fascinating.

[6] Oh my goodness.

[7] This book he wrote is so incredible.

[8] It is called an immense world how animal senses reveal the hidden realms around us.

[9] This was mind bending.

[10] It really was.

[11] I've told multiple people about it since we recorded that it's one world.

[12] really worth listening to.

[13] It's mine expanding.

[14] Like, I left feeling like I left after we had...

[15] After you did mushrooms?

[16] No. When we had Brian Cox, who taught us about the space.

[17] The universe.

[18] Yes, Ed Young's book has you, like, really thinking about how much stuff you're missing and how limited reality is for you with this limited five senses.

[19] His previous book was called I Contained Multitudes, which I think won the Pulitzer Prize.

[20] Please check out his new book, an immense world.

[21] It's fascinating.

[22] and enjoy Ed Young.

[23] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[24] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[25] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[26] So the most soundproofed space in our home is the very small, random closet space near our bedroom, which is currently a shoe closet slash recording studio, or as my wife likes to call it, her shoedeo.

[27] Well, I hope you'll feel safe in that.

[28] We have talked to 55 guests in closets.

[29] Yeah.

[30] Right, right, right.

[31] Closets of America.

[32] Clauseits around the world, in fact.

[33] I think we've talked to some people in France.

[34] International closet?

[35] Are you in England?

[36] I'm in D .C. Okay, so you now live here.

[37] I do live here, yeah.

[38] How long have you lived here?

[39] I started moving roughly at the end of 2016, which is a fine time to move to America.

[40] I looked around the world and thought, which country would be most welcoming to an immigrant, a journalist, a person of color?

[41] And specifically, which city in that country would I feel most like calm and at home?

[42] So I chose D .C. Yeah, you're like, I'd like to be surrounded by red hats.

[43] I don't care what it says on them.

[44] I just love red hats.

[45] I know, right.

[46] So you were born in Malaysia and you moved to the UK when you were 13?

[47] Yes, that's right.

[48] When I was 12.

[49] So are you aware of how your thinking may have shifted being in such a radically different place?

[50] Yes, a little bit.

[51] I mean, there's the shift from London to D .C., British and American culture are a little bit different.

[52] They're not unrecognizably different.

[53] And D .C. is a pretty good starter city for an exiled European.

[54] It's surprisingly European in many ways, even just down to the sight lines.

[55] You know, low buildings, no skyscrapers, narrowish roads.

[56] It doesn't feel that dissimilar to where I grew up.

[57] We were just in London, and it takes a minute to recognize, like, why does it feel so different?

[58] It's a very populated city, and you're like, oh, there's no tall buildings.

[59] That's fascinating.

[60] I also feel the age of London when I'm in it.

[61] The history.

[62] Right, the history.

[63] We have quite a lot of it.

[64] And in America, I always feel like if I look over my shoulder at any minute, I'll see people behind me just slowly cleaning everything.

[65] So it looks like just a little new.

[66] Everything looks a little bit less time -worn.

[67] And I feel that just walk around, D .C. We have a show that we produce with a Kiwi who got kind of stranded here and is exploring America.

[68] And I think we kind of came to a conclusion in that our extreme patriotism could come from that, from the newness.

[69] We have no history to point to.

[70] so we have to be like, yeah, Disneyland and the this, picking out all these new things.

[71] That's right.

[72] Like, we're going to restore this building to the way it was over 50 years ago.

[73] Yeah.

[74] They did that to the observatory here in Los Angeles.

[75] They restored it to like the 50 sci -fi look that it had, which is hilarious.

[76] I find it as interesting what drives people to study what they study as the thing they study.

[77] And I think a lot of scientists do not ask themselves why they're so driven towards this exact topic.

[78] So I majored in anthropology.

[79] I felt like there was much more going on in the world than my town was presenting.

[80] I was suspicious that there was something less confined.

[81] You know, so of course I see an intro to anthro and people are living every imaginable way.

[82] And I go, yes, tell me this isn't the only thing.

[83] So for me, I was always into wildlife, animals, science.

[84] from like a young age.

[85] I don't remember a time when I wasn't really interested in that.

[86] I went to a lot of zoos.

[87] I watched a lot of nature documentaries.

[88] You know, I grew up on a steady diet of David Attenborough.

[89] And that's just continued throughout.

[90] Weirdly, I've never had animals directly in my life until very recently.

[91] We got a pandemic puppy last year.

[92] His name is typo.

[93] A corgi?

[94] Yeah, corgi, that's right.

[95] Those are uniquely stupid dogs.

[96] They're just way too close to the ground.

[97] The legs are a joke.

[98] That's right.

[99] So that creates some hilarious moments.

[100] You know, I write in the book that we like to let Typo have agency on walks.

[101] So we like to respect the fact that he's very smell driven.

[102] He loves to sniff.

[103] We let him sniff.

[104] It's better for him.

[105] But when your dog is so close to the ground, it's actually very hard to see what he's sniffing and what he's picking up.

[106] You're basically dragging a rug across the ground.

[107] Right.

[108] You know, that said, for a small dog, he is.

[109] remarkably strong.

[110] Like when he plays tug with other dogs, he almost always wins.

[111] Very low center of gravity, though.

[112] Absolutely.

[113] Physics are on his side.

[114] We've had a couple of those corgi mixes, and they're pretty hilarious dogs.

[115] So you got both a bachelor and a master's in zoology from Cambridge, and then got a second master's in biochemistry.

[116] Right.

[117] So it's very obvious to me what would have driven you into zoology.

[118] What then got you so curious about biochemistry.

[119] Like a lot of people who study science at university, I figured that the way forward was to get into research myself.

[120] So I had done the sort of mix of animal behavior and molecular biology at uni and I thought, you know, go into research, get a PhD, create a career in science.

[121] And that was a catastrophic mistake because I was very, very bad at it.

[122] I think all graduate students think that they're bad at it.

[123] I genuinely was remarkably bad.

[124] And I'm not going to tell you what I studied in my PhD because honestly, I don't care.

[125] No one else should care either.

[126] It is uniquely boring.

[127] And so I stopped after a couple of years and, you know, realized that I was ill -suited to it and that I wanted to do something else.

[128] And that's something else turned out to be talking about and writing about science.

[129] Just explaining it was so much more fulfilling and rewarding to me than actually doing it.

[130] And much safer for me and for everyone else concerned.

[131] Yeah, it turns out that you are a world -class writer and that you are kind of an ambassador now for science.

[132] in the way that Neil deGrasse Tyson, like he's got a way of bringing physics to your children.

[133] Making it accessible.

[134] Accessible.

[135] And that's not to say that you're like placating or anything, but you have a unique ability to communicate what is hard to understand.

[136] So you won a Pulitzer last year, I guess, 2021.

[137] Congratulations.

[138] Thank you.

[139] Is it a trophy?

[140] Do you get money?

[141] Is there gift cards?

[142] What happens with the Pulitzer?

[143] Well, so one of the Pulitzer categories, you get a gold medal, but that is the category.

[144] that's never given to individuals.

[145] It only goes to specific newsroom and it's the public service one.

[146] Everyone else gets money, but you don't get a thing.

[147] I don't even have a certificate or a plaque.

[148] One of my friends just want to Pulitzer this year and I was thinking of getting her coasters with the Pulitzer medal printed on them.

[149] Sure.

[150] I mean, it might be seen as arrogant, but can I suggest maybe just a tasteful tattoo somewhere on your body?

[151] But you make it small enough, right, that people go, what's that?

[152] And you go, oh, it's nothing.

[153] No, if it's huge, people are like, get over yourself.

[154] You want a fucking polter.

[155] But if it's small enough, they've got an ass, and you're like, they don't give you anything when you win the polter.

[156] This could all work.

[157] Oh, my God.

[158] Very elegantly.

[159] I love it.

[160] That's right.

[161] It's a next level humble brag.

[162] Yes, yes.

[163] It's like, ask me about my humble brag.

[164] I'm so sorry, but I just, in fact, even made it better.

[165] So you get that in dark, dark, black, and you get it somewhere, and then you do a cover.

[166] Like, oh, so then you cover it.

[167] Now it's really obscure.

[168] And then you go, oh, my God, I just, I'm so embarrassed that I have this thing.

[169] Oh, that's really good.

[170] That's like squared, humble squared.

[171] The sheer amount of humility on display here.

[172] The likes of which have never been seen.

[173] But you won that for covering the pandemic and the Atlantic.

[174] That's right.

[175] The shit was coming so fast.

[176] There was so much conflicting info from people that I straight up trust on any other day.

[177] For you to have navigated through that and tried to synthesize it, I imagine, was a little bit high wiry at sometimes.

[178] Very high wiry indeed.

[179] It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, and still is because the pandemic is still ongoing.

[180] For all the reasons you said, there was so much conflicting information.

[181] It was such a massive crisis that upended every possible aspect of our society at once.

[182] And so to write about it, you really had to do pieces that were sort of commensurate in scale.

[183] I think journalism is very good at telling people what is happening.

[184] It is sometimes less good or less practiced at helping them make sense of what is happening, which is a very different skill.

[185] And I think something that becomes especially important with a crisis that is this profound in its stakes, its scope, and its uncertainty.

[186] But I'm honored and delighted to have been of service.

[187] There's not many professions, I think, where you have an obvious role in the middle of a crisis like this, where you have a specific mission to attend to.

[188] And that feels like an important privilege to respect and to do right by.

[189] Yeah, almost every time you write on it, you're trying to evaluate being an alarmist versus being naive or not preparing or warning.

[190] And that to me seemed to be the hardest line for people to hold.

[191] And there's been these kind of meta studies, right, how it was represented in media in Europe versus how it was represented here.

[192] Pretty dramatic difference.

[193] Again, was that something you were kind of conscious of the whole time, or was that not a huge concern of yours?

[194] It's always a concern.

[195] And, you know, you can look at sort of historical examples of how this plays out over time and see cases where people get it wrong or get it right.

[196] Our reactions to, say, bird flu look like an overreaction in history.

[197] Our reactions to the big West African Ebola outbreak felt like certainly an overreaction in the U .S., much less so in Africa where it actually happened.

[198] And then, of course, with COVID, I think in a lot of the early coverage, people were vastly underreacting.

[199] And partly, because of exactly that, in epidemics, people tend to fight the last war.

[200] So the last time you were trying to caution people against overreaction, you have this tendency to downplay the next thing.

[201] If the last time everyone was lax and you were trying to raise an alarm, then you might be more like to raise an alarm next time.

[202] And we're sort of seeing that dynamic happening with the monkeypox outbreak around the world.

[203] But with a little bit of experience in this, yes, like trying to get a sense of how big the threat is, like what even the near -term future holds, is very difficult.

[204] But I think trying to gauge between these extremes of panic and laxity is sort of the wrong way of thinking about it.

[205] You know, I think what we should best do is just to tell people what is happening to the best of our knowledge, right?

[206] You know, give people the facts, show our working, help them to work through sources of uncertainty, show them why those uncertainties exist when they might be resolved, all.

[207] of that good stuff.

[208] You know, I think if we focus on honest scent -making, we go a lot further.

[209] What if everything you just said, yes, and then at the end, it was put into some kind of context.

[210] Like, my example would be, as a parent of young kids, I mean, they're really one in 60 million or whatever they are, but when there was a child who got it early on, it became front page of everything, and then you had parents really, in my opinion, overreacting because it wasn't at all.

[211] No one put it like, you know, P .S. More kids get hit in the head with a toy wagon and die.

[212] Or something that just like right -sized the reality of it.

[213] Is there any obligation to do that?

[214] Oh, of course.

[215] You should provide the best possible information that you have at any given time.

[216] And context is a tricky thing in this pandemic.

[217] You know, you can weigh up the context against a specific COVID threat against other kinds of illness or health problems.

[218] But those comparisons are tricky because obviously this is an infectious disease.

[219] So you can't just weigh up individual risk in this setting against another.

[220] You have to account for the fact that the disease is spread and that the consequences for one individual can exponentially affect entire populations.

[221] You have to account for long -term consequences, which we still don't really fully know about.

[222] So there's a lot at play here, and I think that it's very easy to go for context in kind of a knee -jerk way without really fully exploring what that means.

[223] There's been so much on the pandemic.

[224] You know, everyone's writing something and there's so many articles and we were like really inundated.

[225] Did you feel, how am I going to write a thing that rises above that people will not be sick of hearing?

[226] You know, actually, weirdly, no, this was never a problem.

[227] I think for two reasons.

[228] Firstly, as an industry, we're very good at telling people what is happening.

[229] We're much less good at helping them make sense of it.

[230] So that genre of a big piece that grounds everyone and says, this is where we are.

[231] this was where we're going, a piece that tries to second guess the questions that people are asking, even before they're asking them, how is this going to end?

[232] Why is this so confusing?

[233] How did it come to this?

[234] Those pieces were very few and far between.

[235] And I think that's why the work that I and others did that tried to answer those questions.

[236] The work that someone described as the journalism of evidence -based imagination was rare enough to be meaningful, but also to be slightly competition -proof.

[237] It wasn't the case that there were like a million.

[238] pieces of this kind being written.

[239] And now, in year two and three, I've been increasingly trying to write pieces about the groups of people who are left behind by the pandemic.

[240] The people who feel marginalized and ignored while most of society goes back to normal.

[241] So people who lost loved ones to COVID, immunocompromise people, healthcare workers, long haulers.

[242] But almost by definition, if you write about people who feel neglected, there aren't a lot of people doing that, which is why they feel neglected.

[243] If you're just writing a piece that here's what Tony Fauci has to say about the pandemic or cases are rising again, then, yeah, there's a million pieces like that.

[244] But I think if you actually try and do the hard work of journalism, like helping people to make sense of what is happening, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable, all of that good stuff, there could always be more of that work.

[245] And I think if you do that work, it will find an audience.

[246] Okay.

[247] You have a wildly successful book before an immense world, the one we're going to.

[248] talk about called I contain multitudes, which is a microbes eye view of the world.

[249] And now when I see an immense world, my conclusion is, I think you're fascinated with what we're missing, what we're not seeing.

[250] Yep, that's exactly it.

[251] I too am a little obsessed with what we're missing.

[252] Maybe it'd be easier to say, are you interested in reality?

[253] Like, is that something that you like to think about, like to question, like to poke at?

[254] Oh, very much so.

[255] I think that's exactly the thematic tissue that connects to the two books.

[256] Biology has always been my deepest love.

[257] And I think the most interesting things about the world around us are the ones that we just aren't privy to because of the trappings of our humanity, of our senses, the way we think of even just like our scale and size.

[258] We miss a lot of what's around us.

[259] So the first book was about the organisms that we miss, the little microbes that are too small for us to see, but that still profoundly influence our lives.

[260] And this book is about the sensory information that we miss, the sights and smells and textures that other animals can tap into that we cannot.

[261] So what we miss is part of it, but the other thread that's the sort of flip of that is when we pay attention to these things, when we have our attention drawn to them, our sense of the world just becomes grander and more magical and more magnificent.

[262] We learn so much about what's cool about life around us that we wouldn't otherwise understand.

[263] This is perfect timing for this interview because I was sitting with my friend Amy on Sunday and we were having a pretty long, it shocked me how long you can talk about this.

[264] I encourage anyone to try it was, would you rather lose your sight or your hearing?

[265] And more specifically, we narrowed it down to you're either born missing one or the other.

[266] So it's not like you had it and lost it.

[267] So, you know, you start really going through what you're getting out of seeing the world so much.

[268] You know, would you not want to see your children?

[269] Would you not want to see a mountain, a sunset, all this stuff?

[270] And then, of course, for me, my great hobby in life is talking, is communicating.

[271] So, oh, man, I really enjoy that.

[272] I like to be able to hear other people talk and I like to hear all the sounds of life.

[273] And of course, at the end of this, we both were theorizing like, now just imagine there's like a sixth and a seventh and an eighth way to consume reality around us that we don't even know we're missing.

[274] That is as powerful as sight or as powerful as hearing is to us.

[275] And then recognizing that a lot of animals are picking up a different dimension that we're not privy to is just kind of a fun, magical thought.

[276] You start the book with this great thing.

[277] I would call it a misleading comedy.

[278] It's a misdirect.

[279] So it starts with, you know, imagine there's an elephant and a gym.

[280] Of course, my mind goes to, oh, it's going to be the old proverb of the five people feeling the elephant in the dark and trying to describe it.

[281] You know that one, right, Monica?

[282] One guy's holding its tail.

[283] Oh, it's long and skinny.

[284] Yeah.

[285] You know, whatever the hell of the thing.

[286] We'll revisit it in the fact check.

[287] It's roughly like that.

[288] Yeah, but your setup is, okay, so there's a gal.

[289] Jessica maybe is her name, I think?

[290] Rebecca.

[291] Was that a nod to a loved one?

[292] That's my best friend.

[293] There we go.

[294] That's fun.

[295] Within a misdirect.

[296] Okay.

[297] And then he starts listing other animals that are in there.

[298] There's a rattlesnake.

[299] There's an owl.

[300] Wait, in a room and it's dark?

[301] It's a gym.

[302] You're imagining this, right?

[303] It's a hypothetical space.

[304] I did not, in fact, gather all of these animals.

[305] That would have been an amazing feat of reporting, but no, it's a hypothetical space for reasons that we'll get into, not least of which are logistic ones.

[306] Well, I was just going to say you'd be immediately aware of how challenging Noah's job was.

[307] If you just tried to get those nine animals in the gym.

[308] So imagine a gym in which are an elephant, a rattlesnake, a bat, I think it was a bumblebee, a rat, an owl, a spider, and Rebecca, a human.

[309] And a mouse.

[310] Do you say a mouse?

[311] And yes, there's a mouse, right.

[312] So it just sort of walks in this hypothetical sense of what all of these animals would experience of each other.

[313] So, you know, the mouse is putting out these ultrasonic squeaks, which are too high -pitched for the human to hear, but the bat can hear because its hearing goes up to that level.

[314] The elephant can't, but it's producing these infrasonic low -pitched rumbles that the human can hear, but the bat and the mouse probably can't.

[315] The bee is looking at a flower in the room and can see this ultraviolet bull's eye at its center.

[316] To the human, the flower is yellow.

[317] To, you know, the dog, there's also a dog in the room.

[318] The colors are completely different to.

[319] Greens and reds don't exist.

[320] It's just yellows and blues.

[321] So it's really about trying to understand that even if all these creatures share the same space, They are going to be experiencing reality, the space, and each other, in completely different ways.

[322] There'll be stuff that some of the creatures can sense, some of the others can't.

[323] Everyone is different.

[324] The human is not necessarily better than any of the others.

[325] Sharper eyes, but slightly narrower range of color vision than the bird in the room.

[326] Here's slightly different pitches in the elephant or the bat.

[327] Can't echolocate by the bat can.

[328] Can't sense heat like the rattlesnake can.

[329] So it's this idea that, you know, you could all be in the same physical space.

[330] Your experience of that space is going to be vastly different.

[331] And the reason why the room is hypothetical, rather than me trying to visit a lab where I'm looking at animals behaving differently, is that imagination is the single most powerful requisite for thinking about the senses of other animals.

[332] Because science can get us some way, right?

[333] A scientist can tell me what a bat is doing in a given time.

[334] You can look at the brain of a rattlesic and see what it's doing when it senses a mouse.

[335] but that can't give you the conscious, subjective experience of being inside another animal.

[336] Really think about what the animal is experiencing when it senses the world.

[337] So there's always going to be this chasm between our conscious experience and that of another creature.

[338] And that chasm can only be bridged by acts of imagination.

[339] They always need a little bit of a leap at the end.

[340] And I think the message is you're going to need to put some effort in to start thinking about all this, but it's going to be worthwhile because it's like magical and fun.

[341] I just want to read this because you're writing so beautiful.

[342] It says, These seven creatures share the same physical space, but experience it in wildly and wondrously different ways.

[343] The same is true for billions of other animal species on the planet and the countless individuals within those species.

[344] Earth teams with sights and textures, sounds and vibrations, smells and tastes, electric and magnetic fields, but every animal can only tap into a small fraction of reality's fullness.

[345] Each is enclosed within its own unique sensory bubble, perceiving, but a tiny sliver of an immense world.

[346] I like the thought of a sensory bubble.

[347] But also, that's people, too.

[348] That could literally be seven different people with seven different backgrounds in a room as well.

[349] Absolutely.

[350] Every person senses slightly differently.

[351] You know, if you've had arguments about whether something tastes good or what something smells like, you know, what color is this.

[352] In my workplace of the Atlantic, at some point, someone asked whether a tennis ball is yellow or green.

[353] And it caused like a days -long civil war in our newsroom of learned, serious, educated people.

[354] I've never seen a groomful of journalists collapse into such furious outrage through each other.

[355] And that's really saying something.

[356] So, yeah, people are also different.

[357] Like, within any one species, there are different ways of experiencing the world.

[358] And that's sort of the point, right?

[359] It's hard enough to think about what another person is experiencing.

[360] let alone what a platypus or an elephant or a spider is experiencing.

[361] So right when I started reading it, I was like, oh, I'm going to read this book out loud to my girls who are seven and nine.

[362] I think this would be an incredible book to read aloud to your kids.

[363] It's a very enchanting entrance to this world.

[364] And first of all, I want to label what we just talked about because I love the word.

[365] Do you say umwelt or umwelt?

[366] Umwelt.

[367] Okay, so that's a German zoologist came up with that term.

[368] Yeah, so a man name, I always butcher his name, but it's Jacob von Uckskull.

[369] I'm so shocked you butcher it.

[370] So easy.

[371] It's probably completely wrong.

[372] My apologies for any native German speakers here, but that guy who in my head for a long time was just JVU because I couldn't pronounce his name, pioneer this concept, this Unveldt concept.

[373] And for that, I've come to say to people, it's like Unbop, but slightly different.

[374] So, yeah, the unvald concept, the word comes from the German word for environment.

[375] But Venetka didn't mean it as an environment like an animal's surrounding, not the physical space around its body.

[376] He meant that sensory bubble, the part of that environment that the animal can tap into, the specific sets of sights and sounds and smells that it has access to and that another animal might not.

[377] You said this book is about animals for animals.

[378] Like, I think there's a tendency for us to think of ourselves as the finish line of evolution.

[379] You know, we start as an amoeba, then an invertebrate, then mammals, and then ultimately we're the grand mammal of all.

[380] And even myself, even though I recognize evolution hasn't stopped at any one of those places along the way.

[381] Everyone's continued to branch forward.

[382] There is some sense to think that we're at the top or what they have is vestigial, you know, or we have some vestigial of that, but we don't use, you know, whatever.

[383] We're the most evolved.

[384] Exactly.

[385] So if you wouldn't mind speaking on that, just like our kind of own egocentrism when we think about animals and their experience.

[386] Yeah, of course.

[387] I mean, if I ask you to think about an image that summarizes evolution, I think most people would think the thing with you have an ape and then it's walking to the right and it slowly gets more upright and then it's a human, right?

[388] So the iconography around this topic, it has the sense of progression and increasing advancement.

[389] But of course, that's not what evolution is.

[390] What evolution is very good at doing is generating diversity.

[391] And like I say in the introduction, an immense world is a book about diversity, not about superiority.

[392] For a few reasons.

[393] Firstly, nothing has it all.

[394] So nothing can sense everything and nothing needs to.

[395] Humans have really good eyesight.

[396] Our eyes are among the most acute, the sharpest in the animal kingdom, except possibly for birds of prey.

[397] It's not even so much that our eyeballs themselves are the top notch, but we commit so much brain power to processing the information that the eyes are getting as well.

[398] Isn't that part of it?

[399] A bit of both, yeah, for sure.

[400] The hardware is great, and all the processing, like, all the software is also excellent.

[401] But in eyes alone, there is always a trade -off between resolution, so sharpness and sensitivity, so how well it works in the dark.

[402] Animal with super sharp eyes, like a human or an eagle, is roughly useless at night, whereas an animal that has really good night vision is going to struggle with, you know, how many pixels its image has.

[403] So there's always going to be trade -off, and then there's trade -offs between, the other senses.

[404] Humans, great sense of touch, super sensitive fingertips, really good sharp eyes, but our sense of smell is much less good than, say, a dog's or an elephant.

[405] So we use it in different ways.

[406] And then there are senses that we don't have.

[407] We can't sense electric fields like an electric eel can.

[408] We can't sense magnetic fields like even, you know, any of the songbirds outside my window right now have access to.

[409] Nothing can sense everything.

[410] Evolution and tailors our senses to our own needs.

[411] And so every animal is left with just a sliver.

[412] It's not like the human slice of reality is bigger than anything else's.

[413] It's just different.

[414] What is special about people is that we, I think, are the only species that can think about these other sensory worlds.

[415] So in that hypothetical room, right, the elephant doesn't know what the rattlesnake is thinking.

[416] The rattlesnake doesn't know what the bat is thinking.

[417] The human, Rebecca, my friend, also doesn't.

[418] but is also the only creature that can even start asking that question, that can start making that leap of imagination and think, what are all these other creatures experiencing?

[419] And so that act, the animating idea of the book, is a truly profoundly human thing to be able to do.

[420] I talk about it as a gift, and I think that one that we should really cherish and make use of.

[421] Right.

[422] We are also unique in the fact that we are going to and have to some extent invent tools that will allow us to experience what they're experiencing.

[423] That's also phenomenal, right?

[424] Absolutely.

[425] Most of the discoveries that I write about in the book came about because we had technological advancements.

[426] You know, we have an ultrasound detector that can understand the noises that a bat is making that we can't hear.

[427] You know, we have night vision goggles that can be used to study animals behaving in the dark.

[428] Technology is important, but like I said, technology only gets us a certain way.

[429] And that's why you always need this sort of fusion of technology with our innate creativity and our imaginative skill to really start understanding what it is animals are actually experiencing.

[430] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[431] We've all been there.

[432] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers and strange rashes.

[433] Though our mum, Minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[434] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[435] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[436] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[437] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[438] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[439] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[440] What's up, guys?

[441] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[442] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[443] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[444] And I don't mean just friends.

[445] I mean the likes of Amy Pol.

[446] Kelle Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[447] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[448] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[449] You say in the past, we basically, and I'm going to quote you, reverse engineer animal senses to create new technologies.

[450] Lobster eyes have inspired space telescopes.

[451] The ears of a parasitic fly have influenced hearing aids.

[452] And military sonar has been honed by work on dolphin sonar.

[453] So, yeah, they seem to have always conventionally.

[454] fulfilled a role that we wanted.

[455] Like, it had an end game and an end goal always of somehow borrowing from what they've mastered so we can enjoy it ourselves.

[456] Totally.

[457] And this is called biomimicry, taking technological inspiration from the bodies and behavior of animals.

[458] And look, I'm fascinated by that too.

[459] I've written about that before.

[460] It's a totally legit area of science.

[461] But it's not what I'm interested in here.

[462] I think a lot of research on animals, a lot of our interest in animals becomes like kind of a self -serving thing.

[463] So it's either They're inspiring technology or a lot of lab creatures from fruit flies to rats and mice get seen as like proxies for us.

[464] They're model organisms that tell us more about our own biology.

[465] And it's always about us as the end point.

[466] An immense world is a book about trying to appreciate animals for themselves, trying to understand that they are the endpoint, that the ways in which they experience the world are glorious to think about in their own right, even if all we get out of it is understanding them better.

[467] I think that's part of it, but I think for people who want a little bit more of a transactional thing here, I think that what that gives us is a newfound appreciation for the world around us.

[468] You know, I talk about how thinking about the senses of other animals shows you flickers of the magical and the mundane and the extraordinary in the everyday.

[469] So I'll give you like a very personal example of that.

[470] I have typo.

[471] We go for three walks every day.

[472] We're always walking around exactly the same streets in building.

[473] you know, just same neighbourhood, the same places that I've walked past thousands of times, and that to me, frankly, are boring, right?

[474] Like, I'm walking down the streets myself, and mostly off in my head or looking at my phone or whatever.

[475] But those streets, to typo's nose, change on a daily, maybe hourly basis.

[476] We can walk along and he will be trundling around quite happily on his short, ridiculous legs.

[477] And then suddenly, he'll grind to a halt and start sniffing a patch of pavement that looks completely identical to every other patch of pavement.

[478] And there's something there that grabbed his attention.

[479] It's spring now.

[480] New plants are blossoming everywhere.

[481] He'll explore all the new growth with just the utmost delicacy.

[482] He'll sniff every pea patch that another dog is visited.

[483] Every time he does that, he probably knows which of his neighborhood friends has been that way, what their condition is, what they've been up to.

[484] To me, watching that, it's like me scrolling through my Instagram feed.

[485] It's like me catching up in social media.

[486] That's what a sniff walk is to typo.

[487] Yeah, the world is novel and ever -changing if you're led by your nose.

[488] And profoundly social, even if there's no one there.

[489] Yeah, it's like reading a gossip trade to smell those urine patches.

[490] There have been moments where I'm looking at Twitter while he's sniffing on a walk and I'm just really aware now that those are the same things.

[491] Those are two very different versions of the same kind of activity.

[492] So that's what it gives me. It shows me that the world around me that I think is static and boring is actually always changing and interesting.

[493] It's always renewing itself.

[494] And I might not pay attention to it.

[495] I might not be able to tap into that myself.

[496] But I can by looking at what he does.

[497] There's something very beautiful about that.

[498] It's like an antidote to the mundanity of everyday life.

[499] Yeah.

[500] You put a Henry Beston.

[501] Yeah.

[502] Quote in here.

[503] That's really cool.

[504] Referring to animals.

[505] They are not brethren.

[506] They are not underlings, there are other nations caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth.

[507] I should not go into reading nice quotes professionally, because I'm a very bad reader.

[508] But trust me, when I read that, I thought, what a beautiful way to look at them.

[509] It's so good, isn't it?

[510] I mean, that's what I was hoping to do with this book, too.

[511] This topic is so full of wonder and joy.

[512] The biology is fascinating.

[513] What it tells you about the world is profound.

[514] And I think the writing needs to live up to the magical promise of the topic.

[515] Yeah, it's very poetic.

[516] Yeah, absolutely.

[517] I feel like I definitely need to read it.

[518] You do, because you have zero empathy for it.

[519] Well, don't say that.

[520] Well, on the spectrum, you and I are on the same end of the spectrum.

[521] Yeah.

[522] I at least loved primate.

[523] you know.

[524] Okay.

[525] Well, yeah, I don't have that much of an affection.

[526] It wasn't imprinted on me, but this is making me really excited about them.

[527] Well, can I tell you some of my favorite ones?

[528] I'm just going to hit you with like the ones I carry around.

[529] One is, and I just read this one the other night reading about sharks with Lincoln, our sense of smell, to talk about how terrible ours is, a shark can smell blood in the water from three miles away.

[530] I don't even know how scents move through water.

[531] That begs this huge physics question on top of that.

[532] Or, The fact that we know about the elephants communicating subsonically over the course of 10 miles on the Serengeti, and that we figured that out because a woman was studying birds and played her recording back at the wrong speed.

[533] And so now we could hear all these sounds we couldn't previously hear.

[534] Like the way we, A, discover this stuff and B, B, what they're capable of is boggling.

[535] And I'm just jealous, I think.

[536] Do you want to object to either of those examples?

[537] I saw you squinting this if you were like, well, that's kind of right.

[538] No, so the shark thing is interesting because I was going to write about sharks in the smell chapter because everyone talks about the blood thing.

[539] Turns out that a shark's sense of smell is still very good, but also not that special compared to a lot of fish.

[540] So a lot of fish smell super well.

[541] Salmon used their sense of smell to guide them back to the rivers where they were originally born.

[542] That's one of the ways in which they find their way back home and then spawn at exactly the right place.

[543] Sharks are certainly very cool and they do a lot of incredible sensory things.

[544] So one of the truly amazing things that they do is that they can sense the electric fields of their prey.

[545] So an animal can bury itself in sand.

[546] It can stay completely still.

[547] It can make no noise.

[548] But just through the very act of living, it produces small electric fields around it, which it cannot turn off.

[549] And a shark can sense that.

[550] It's only a very close range sense.

[551] It's not like you can do it from a close -rack.

[552] across a swimming pool, but it can if it was swimming, say, you know, an arm's length above.

[553] And can I ask quickly, how specific is this electromagnetic field print?

[554] Is there one specific to seals or it's a generalized electrical activity?

[555] It's a really good question.

[556] I think it's generalized.

[557] It would be interesting to see it's like sharks can tell the difference, but some sharks will bite buried undersea cables because they give off electric fields.

[558] So I don't think it's like a shark is swimming along and thinking, ooh, flounder.

[559] Like a UPC code?

[560] It's not like reading off a menu.

[561] Hammerhead sharks, right?

[562] That weird head that looks very much like a metal detector is basically a metal detector.

[563] It spans the reach of the shark's electric scents to cover a larger area so it can scan more of the seafloor as it's swimming along.

[564] Oh, wow.

[565] So it's imaginable that we could create a suit that would somehow, protect us from the electrical charge, like some kind of an insolative suit that would neutralize us.

[566] I mean, the thing is, we don't need to worry about it because most shark attacks are not to do with this.

[567] Most shark attacks are mistaken identity.

[568] First, it's super rare.

[569] Secondly, a lot of it happens because from below, a human on a surfboard has the same siloite as a seal.

[570] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[571] We don't need some kind of special Iron Man, you know.

[572] Also, I'm doing the thing we swore we weren't going to do.

[573] It's hard.

[574] It's like make it all about us.

[575] I know.

[576] It's really hard.

[577] We're so egomaniacal as humans.

[578] Okay, the birds and the magnetic field of Earth.

[579] Oh, yes.

[580] Can you please explain what happens?

[581] Do they have a different organ?

[582] Yes.

[583] It is hard to explain what exactly happens because scientists are themselves not completely sure.

[584] The magnetic sense exists in a large number of animals.

[585] The songbirds have it.

[586] Sea turtles have it.

[587] A bunch of other things have it.

[588] But it is by far the hard.

[589] hardest sense to study.

[590] It is the only one where we don't know what the sense organ is or even what the receptors are.

[591] And by receptors, so vision works for my eyes.

[592] Pretty obvious.

[593] In my eyes, there's a retina.

[594] In the retina, there are special cells that detect light.

[595] So that's the receptors.

[596] We know what they are.

[597] Don't know that for the magnetic sense.

[598] And the reason for that is the magnetic field penetrates through flesh.

[599] So it goes through our bodies.

[600] So unlike light or sound or most of the other things we sense, you don't need a hole in your body to let it in, and you don't need the sense organ to be on the surface.

[601] The sense organ could be anywhere, could be in my butt, could be in the back of my head, could be distributed throughout my entire body, as like one scientist told me, it could be like finding a needle in a haystack made of needles.

[602] I'm sure they would have already thought of this, but how about just the normal levels of iron in your blood being pulled in some direction that is somehow sensed in your...

[603] cardiovascular system?

[604] Like, could it even be in its totality?

[605] The iron in your blood is not magnetic like that.

[606] So, you know, in the X -Men comics, when Magneto paralyzes people by manipulating the iron in their blood, does not work.

[607] Oh, bummer.

[608] Okay.

[609] It would not actually work in real life.

[610] But there are at least three different possibilities for how animal sense magnetic feels.

[611] And two are ridiculously complicated, but you've kind of hit on the third, which is the easiest to explain, which is that there is a mineral called magnetite, which is magnetic, it's an iron mineral, and it exists in the cells of living things, like some bacteria, some animals.

[612] And you can imagine that it basically acts like a little compass needle.

[613] There's a little needle inside yourselves as you turn, the needle turns, and it tugs on something, something that then generates an electric signal in your nervous system.

[614] That is one possible way that a magnetic sense could work, but actually trying to identify these cells has been super hard.

[615] People have tried, people have said that they found them in pigeons and other animals.

[616] It's often turned out to be not true.

[617] There's a huge amount of controversy in this because if I asked you, explain how magnets work.

[618] It's really hard, right?

[619] Like, I'm a professional science writer, and I would struggle to explain to you how magnets work.

[620] So magnetism is so counterintuitive that it's very very much.

[621] It's very hard.

[622] It's very hard for us to explain.

[623] It's very hard for us to imagine what that would feel like to another animal.

[624] One of the theories is that there's some weird chemical reaction that goes on in its eyes that's magnetically sensitive.

[625] And it means that maybe the bird sees the magnetic field.

[626] Like maybe there's an overlay over its vision and maybe north is like a bit darker or a bit brighter.

[627] Or like the impulse for things to go towards the light.

[628] Maybe it's yet a different version of light through the eyes that are being compelled to fly towards.

[629] Right, right.

[630] It's like a heads -up display, something on the windshield of your car.

[631] Maybe it's something like that.

[632] But maybe not.

[633] Maybe it's just a feeling.

[634] An intuition.

[635] An intuition, right.

[636] So that's why it's so difficult.

[637] But earlier, you know, you said that one of the cool things about this area is that scientists often discover stuff in a completely unexpected ways.

[638] And one of the ways in which we learned that animals have this magnetic sense is when it comes time to migrate, small songbirds exhibit this thing called Zuggenruhe, a German word for migration anxiety.

[639] They get super wrestled.

[640] They're really like itching to go.

[641] They have somewhere to be and they want to get there.

[642] Like two days before spring break for a teenager.

[643] Yeah, yeah.

[644] Yeah, yeah.

[645] Yeah, let's go Thursday.

[646] Pacing around your roof, like, come on.

[647] But it turns out they know the way because if you put them in a cage, even if they can't see any landmarks or anything, they'll start hopping in the the same direction.

[648] And so you see a bird doing them and go, huh, that's weird.

[649] And then you start doing experiments that show exactly how it works.

[650] A lot of senses were discovered because people saw animals doing things that just didn't seem possible.

[651] You know, a bat flying through a completely dark room without bumping into anything.

[652] An electric fish swimming backwards along its tank and then up the wall of its tank without hitting that wall.

[653] How is it doing that?

[654] Those are the first clues that cue people into these other sensory worlds that are all around us.

[655] I think now might be a good time to introduce the concept of just light and light as we understand it.

[656] And my understanding comes from an astronomy class 24 years ago, so bear with me. But if we just look at light and the wavelengths are measured, we're seeing an area of that spectrum between like 7 ,000 angstroms and 4 ,000 angstroms, which is the tiniestriums.

[657] of how many wavelengths there are of light.

[658] And we think of light as only being the things we're seeing between those two very specific wavelengths.

[659] Obviously, there's animals that are seen well beyond this spectrum of light we're seeing, whether it's ultraviolet or whether it's infrared, and then probably beyond.

[660] Right.

[661] So we're seeing between violet at 400 nanometers and red at 700 nanometers.

[662] And the whole electromagnetic spectrum was like the length of my arm.

[663] That would probably be like a little bit of fingernail.

[664] It's tiny.

[665] Oh, my God.

[666] But there are other animals that can see colors that we can't see.

[667] It used to be thought that the first animals that was known to see ultraviolet were ants.

[668] And then it used to be thought like, okay, so animals can see this, it's super rare.

[669] Then scientists just kept on finding more and more creatures that can see ultraviolet.

[670] And now we know that most animals that can see color can see ultraviolet.

[671] We're rare in that.

[672] We are the exception.

[673] And when you look at the world through ultraviolet, things look at the world.

[674] very different.

[675] So a lot of flowers that we think are uniform in color, like a sunflower, just looks yellow to us, have all these bright ultraviolet patterns to them.

[676] The sunflower has like this ultraviolet bull's eye in the middle.

[677] I am too.

[678] Right?

[679] Yeah.

[680] Like the world of Navi and Avatar.

[681] It's kind of like being on shrooms.

[682] Yes.

[683] The whole time I'm reading this, I'm like, we were just talking about shrooms.

[684] Someone described this book to me the other day as being very trippy.

[685] I think that's exactly right.

[686] So bird feathers, right?

[687] Bird feathers have a a lot of ultraviolet them often.

[688] Many birds, where the males and females, look exactly the same to us, look very different to each other because they can see ultraviolet.

[689] Birds are a super interesting case because we have three classes of light -scentred exiles in our eyes sensitive to red, green, and blue.

[690] That defines the range of colors that we can see, and by mixing the signals from those three classes, we see all the colors that we can see, the whole rainbow, all the pantones in your DIY shop, all of that.

[691] Birds have a fourth.

[692] They also have ultraviolet.

[693] And that doesn't mean that their color vision is ours, but just extended a little bit in the spectrum.

[694] It means that they have a whole other dimension of colors that we cannot see.

[695] It's multiplicative.

[696] It's like they can see 100 times more colors we can see.

[697] They're quantum.

[698] It's like if you think of a computer as being binary, they're like they've already achieved quantum color.

[699] Right, right.

[700] I can imagine what my dog sees because he sees fewer colors, right?

[701] His rainbow goes from like yellow to blue.

[702] He doesn't see the reds.

[703] He doesn't see the purples.

[704] His greens look more like whites and gray.

[705] So I can recolor the world to look like how he sees.

[706] But I cannot recolor the world to look like what a bird sees, because the bird sees way more colors.

[707] So he sees like a hundred times more colors.

[708] Four into three won't go, which again is why imagination is so important.

[709] Look at the side of the window.

[710] The sparrow that I walk past, the most common, most boring birds out there are seeing this massive range.

[711] of colors that we can't see that we don't even have names for.

[712] And I think that's incredible.

[713] Yeah.

[714] It's really hard to think about that.

[715] It is because it's hard to even use your imagination because when you use your imagination, you're using from the colors you know.

[716] Your three and gradient.

[717] Yeah, you're still using from a limited palette.

[718] And even if one were to try to illustrate one, it would still file into, yes.

[719] Right.

[720] So I'll give you another example.

[721] So vision is good for this kind of exercise because everyone here who has sight knows what it's like.

[722] You know, It's very familiar.

[723] We're not talking about like magnetoreception or something completely alien.

[724] We have a basis for it.

[725] But think about what a bird sees.

[726] So humans have eyes, mostly two eyes, forward facing.

[727] So when we walk ahead, our visual world is in front of us and moves towards us.

[728] But a bird has eyes on the sides of its head, which means it has close to a wraparound vision.

[729] Like some have completely wrap around vision, but it will see the sides and a little bit behind.

[730] So a bird's visual world surrounds it.

[731] And when the bird is walking forward, parts of that visual world will go towards it, and other parts will move away from it.

[732] And there's no overlap, so they're not judging any depth.

[733] Right.

[734] I can look behind me. I can see what the world behind me is like, but I can't imagine what it's like to have completely wraparound vision.

[735] And there's no way of giving me that.

[736] You can wear the fanciest virtual reality goggles you like, but you still can't give me the sense of seeing out the back of my head.

[737] Right?

[738] And that's really trippy.

[739] Well, also, you happen to be using the sense that we have the best of.

[740] That's the irony of it.

[741] It's like, look how limited we are in comprehending what we're not seeing.

[742] And yet our nose is like a hundredth as powerful as our eyes, or maybe more.

[743] I don't even know what the factor is.

[744] Like, you're using our best sense to point out what little we see.

[745] Exactly.

[746] Even for vision, you know, there are animals which much faster vision, much slower vision, more acute vision.

[747] animals that can see in the darkest of nights as if they were moving around in bright sunlight.

[748] The field of vision stuff, like you're able to see around your head, right?

[749] A duck sitting on the pond can probably see the entirety of the sky without having to move.

[750] A heron standing still can probably see the fish swimming between its legs.

[751] Monica's getting irritated.

[752] I'm feeling grumpy about this.

[753] Yeah.

[754] You're getting fomo.

[755] Really bad fomo.

[756] Right.

[757] And what?

[758] One of the things that makes the book trippy is it makes you think about things that you thought you really understood.

[759] Things that were so obvious, you would never question them.

[760] And it makes you think, is that right?

[761] There's a whole chapter about heat and about how animals sense temperature.

[762] And the thing is that we have neurons all over our bodies that can sense heat and that can sense coal.

[763] And then have different thresholds for what you find painfully hot, what you find painfully cold.

[764] In every animal, those thresholds are set differently, depending on the conditions those animals experience.

[765] So a camel that lives in the baking desert isn't sitting there just going, oh, God, it's miserable and hot.

[766] It's fine because its heat centers are calibrated at a different level.

[767] 136, they're like, okay, we need to find shade.

[768] Yeah, right, right, right.

[769] And there's loads of animals.

[770] There's a lot of fish that have no sense of painful cold.

[771] that do not understand what it is like to be painfully cold.

[772] Fish that live in the Arctic aren't sitting in the ocean going, oh, God, it's so cold.

[773] They're literally chill with it.

[774] So the last person who said, this book's really shrewper.

[775] I was like, yeah, so let me ask you this question.

[776] Is ice cold?

[777] Right, like objectively, is it cold?

[778] Right.

[779] And the answer is it's cold to us, but it's not necessarily cold to other animals.

[780] But it is freezing.

[781] It is frozen.

[782] Yeah.

[783] In physics, it's a radar of speed, truly.

[784] It's frozen by definition, but is it cold?

[785] Does it feel cold?

[786] And the answer for a lot of animals is going to be no. But that question is ice cold.

[787] It's the most ludicrous question.

[788] I can't believe I'm asking it out loud, let alone that I'm asking it out loud and that the answer could conceivably be no. That's incredible, but weirdly, the antithesis of that must be true, though, fire is hot.

[789] Fire is hot.

[790] Let's anchor ourselves in that fire is hot.

[791] Okay, thank God we can all connect on one thing.

[792] Fire is absolutely hot because no animals happy about fire.

[793] No. They might be more tolerant of some heat.

[794] We could make a good riddle out of that.

[795] We could.

[796] There is a good riddle to be had.

[797] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[798] So in the heat chapter I write about these beetles that actually fly towards fire.

[799] They can sense sources of heat from a great distance, intense sources of heat, and they head towards fire because they lay their eggs in charred bark.

[800] The burnt forest has no predators.

[801] The trees are burned to shit, so they have like few defences.

[802] So it's very easy for the beetles to lay eggs in there.

[803] The eggs are hatched to grubs.

[804] The grubs eat the trees.

[805] Actually, a burnt forest is kind of like an Eden for them.

[806] And their senses, being able to detect It's infrared, very, very sensitively at a great distance, help them find fires.

[807] They also have sex with each other amid the fires, which has to be, like, one of the most dramatic.

[808] Oh, romantic.

[809] Yeah, it's very romantic.

[810] We kind of take that one more like, cabin, fireplace.

[811] Sure, sure.

[812] Should they take it to the extreme?

[813] They're in the fireplace.

[814] It's hot, literally.

[815] It's hot sex.

[816] Yeah, it's so hot.

[817] Oh, when they see heat, is it part of their tactile.

[818] Like us, is it part of the feeling of their skin or is that something they see when they can detect heat?

[819] So it varies.

[820] Usually it's much like us.

[821] So it gets hot.

[822] Our skin feels hot.

[823] We sort of feel there's a whole body thing.

[824] That's usually what happens.

[825] But there are some animals that detect, but that's like just detecting ambient heat, right?

[826] So I am sitting here and I have a sense of how warm the room is where I currently am.

[827] But there are definitely creatures that can sense heat sources from a distance.

[828] So the Beatles are one of them.

[829] There are a lot of parasites that do this.

[830] For those that suck blood, being able to detect heat from distance is a great skill because blood is hot.

[831] So vampire bats can do this.

[832] Ticks can do this.

[833] Mosquitoes can do this.

[834] But probably the animals that are best at detecting heat from a distance that are most famous for it are rattlesnakes and other pit vipers.

[835] And there, there does seem to be a connection to vision.

[836] So the snakes have these two pits on their snouts that look like a pair of extra nostrils.

[837] It's gross, yes, I can see them perfectly in my mind.

[838] And those pits detect infrared radiations.

[839] They can detect heat from a distance.

[840] So a rattlesnake in complete darkness can sense a mouse scurrying in front of it.

[841] It can strike the mouse with enough accuracy to first hit it and then even hit it in exactly the right place.

[842] So their heat sense is kind of extraordinary.

[843] Really quick.

[844] Infrared is a wavelength, though, right?

[845] So they're detecting light at that point?

[846] Sort of.

[847] Right.

[848] So a hot object, the molecules in that hot object will vibrate faster.

[849] It will give off infrared radiation.

[850] That radiation will then heat up objects that it hits.

[851] So that's why if you sit next to a fire, you feel hot.

[852] It's because the infrared radiation for the fire is sort of jiggling the molecules like in your body closer to it.

[853] So the rattlesnake sort of does this, but it just has exquisitely sensitive membrane in its pits that can detect the much fainter radiation given off by, say, a warm mouse rather than a raging fire.

[854] What's weird about it is that the pits have connections that seem to integrate with the connections from the snake's eyes, and they go to a similar part of the brain.

[855] So some scientists think that actually this heat sense is just an extension of vision.

[856] So maybe infrared is just another kind of color that the snakes can see.

[857] Can I just ask something really quick?

[858] Just like we try to think of ourselves, this is what mushrooms accomplishes, right, is it breaks down the module sense of self and module sense of all the beans.

[859] And I definitely think we have a module sense of senses, which is like they're completely different things.

[860] They handle different things.

[861] But there's a world in which they're fused.

[862] They work in tandem.

[863] They're not different, right?

[864] I mean, this might be a case of that where it's not compartmentalized in the way we think of it.

[865] Right.

[866] So the reason why we think about five senses and five distinct senses is Aristotle.

[867] So that classification scheme goes back to him.

[868] But it's a complicated classification scheme.

[869] It misses a bunch of senses that other animals have.

[870] It misses something that we have.

[871] It doesn't include the ones that tell us about the position of our bodies, for example.

[872] It's pro preception.

[873] Oh, pro preception.

[874] Yeah, right.

[875] But it also suggests that the senses can be separated in this neat way.

[876] And so firstly, even with humans, there are people with synesthesia, for example, where the senses meld together.

[877] So some people have a sense of smelling colors or some words can evoke like sense smells or taste.

[878] And numbers.

[879] Right, right.

[880] This cross -pollination between the senses.

[881] And then for other animals, it's likely that many of them are fusing senses that we think of are separate into the same thing.

[882] And octopus's suckers has touch senses and taste senses.

[883] And I wouldn't be surprised if those two things merge into the same thing.

[884] So it has a sense of touch taste.

[885] You know, it has like the taste of a shape or the feel of a taste.

[886] Well, we get a little hint of that, right?

[887] Like, we love texture and food.

[888] It's not just the taste.

[889] If you put a Snickers bar, you put it on a marshmallow, it has all the exact same flavors.

[890] It's going to be a different experience because you are combining and conflating the texture of the thing and the sensory and then the taste.

[891] Taste and smell for humans are very interconnected.

[892] Well, that's the same thing.

[893] Olfactory.

[894] Most of what we think of as taste is really smell.

[895] Most flavor is really smell.

[896] It's why when you get a cold, food doesn't taste any.

[897] Like, the taste is basic.

[898] It's just sweet, sour, salt, savory, and bitter.

[899] Umami.

[900] Well, don't they say umami?

[901] That's the newest one.

[902] Umami's the savory one.

[903] Yeah.

[904] But all the richness we think of as being linked to taste is really smell.

[905] And we just both got embarrassed.

[906] I don't know if you can see it on her faces, but...

[907] We don't know anything.

[908] What happened is first, Monica got embarrassed about taste and smell.

[909] And then I got embarrassed that umami's just savory.

[910] We're just so stupid.

[911] Oh, I don't know.

[912] We're doing okay.

[913] We're doing okay.

[914] I mean, it's a goddamn Pulitzer Prize winner.

[915] I mean, he has nothing to show for it, but he is a pole to prize winning.

[916] That's right.

[917] Maybe we could win one of those gold medals because having people like Edon, we're doing a service.

[918] Oh, right.

[919] Yes.

[920] That's a good point.

[921] Yeah.

[922] We're even like one step below the Atlantic as far as disseminating good signs.

[923] Yeah, exactly.

[924] But super humble, super, super humble.

[925] as we established earlier.

[926] That's why you want to humbly.

[927] Okay, so we interrupted you, but I just wanted to point out what happened in real life over here.

[928] If you felt us get disconnected for a second, it's because we were embarrassed, but please.

[929] Okay, so, you know, with the rattlesnakes, maybe the heat sense is sort of an offshoot or a part of vision.

[930] A platypus, that famous duck bill, that a platypus has, has electro sensors, bit like a shark, and touch sensors.

[931] But are those different?

[932] Some people have argued that the platypus might just have one single sense of electro touch, where the electric sensations it's getting just get integrated with what it feels, which is impossible to imagine, because we firstly don't even have half of that, let alone know how to put that together.

[933] So yeah, firstly, it's not just five senses.

[934] There's loads of possible ones.

[935] They all connect to each other in really interesting ways.

[936] And I think that's one of the things I hope to do with the book.

[937] The penultimate chapter is exactly about this business of uniting the centres into a single feeling, like a single conscious perception.

[938] and what that might be like.

[939] A lot of scientists who study this tend to focus on one sense at a time.

[940] You get like vision scientists or factory scientists.

[941] But no creature is ever relying just on one sense at a time.

[942] Even the ones that are amazing, shark has great sense of smell, but also uses its electric sense, its eyes, its lateral line.

[943] It's got loads of stuff, and all animals are like this.

[944] You know, if it's hard enough to imagine what it's like to see the world through like the eyes of a duck, just imagine what it's like to put all of the other bits of information together.

[945] Yes.

[946] Oh, God, yes.

[947] You're getting a smell.

[948] You can actually see everywhere around you.

[949] All right, I want to hit just rapid fire some of the tastier little elements that are promised in this book that would fascinate people and have them running out to their long shutdown borders and then, of course, ordering it once they realize that.

[950] Borders.

[951] Borders and Noble.

[952] Oh, sorry.

[953] Take your pick.

[954] Take your pick of brick and mortar from our history.

[955] It's been a long pandemic.

[956] Yes.

[957] Tell me how this works.

[958] Dogs can tell identical.

[959] called Twins Apart.

[960] I smell.

[961] Monica.

[962] Yeah.

[963] Deal with it.

[964] There's a lot of party tricks that dogs are good at.

[965] So the Twins thing is one of them.

[966] They've been able to tell the direction a person's been walking in by sniffing their footsteps.

[967] There are dogs that can detect drugs most famously, but some scientists have trained dogs to sniff out whale poop so that they can study whales.

[968] They'll have a service dog with a pair of goggles sitting at the front of a boat, like going Oh my God.

[969] Whales that way.

[970] Is there any truth of them smelling cancer?

[971] Yeah, they've definitely been able to do that in lab studies.

[972] Whether you can actually use that as a screening tool, I kind of doubt it.

[973] But they have very good noses.

[974] And they have been able to do stuff like that in lab studies, yeah.

[975] Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[976] Okay, whales songs can traverse entire oceans.

[977] Bullshit, bullshit, Ed.

[978] You know, this is exactly what people said to the scientist, Roger Payne, who first said, suggested this in the 1970s.

[979] That reaction is very legit, but it turns out they can.

[980] They produce the same kind of low, infrasonic calls that elephants make, and those calls travel over long distances, even in the air, but especially so in the water.

[981] So whale songs very much can travel over long distances.

[982] What's a long distance?

[983] We're saying 20 ,000 miles?

[984] I'm saying across the Atlantic.

[985] Scientists have listened to recordings captured by names.

[986] Navy hydrophones off the coast of the Americas and heard singing whales that were singing in Europe.

[987] Oh my God.

[988] So can a blue whale near the Americas have a conversation with a whale in Europe?

[989] Maybe not, but certainly over much longer distances than we think they're capable of.

[990] And doesn't that challenge our idea that they're the most solitary animal?

[991] Like when you think about the fact that they could...

[992] Yes.

[993] If you watch a whale swimming on its own, is it on its own?

[994] Because it could well be in acoustic contact with other whales that are miles away that you can't see, but that it can definitely hear.

[995] It could be in a pod separated by hundreds of miles.

[996] And you guys could all be checking out what area's got the most plankton.

[997] Totally.

[998] So what counts is a whale pod, right?

[999] We define it visually because we're mostly visual creatures.

[1000] So we see them together, that's a pod.

[1001] That doesn't have to be how it works to a whale.

[1002] The dog and the boat's going nuts.

[1003] It smells the pod, right?

[1004] But it doesn't have to be that way to the whales.

[1005] Oh, my God.

[1006] I love the notion that they're not solitary, perhaps.

[1007] Does any other creature in the water, can they hear it too?

[1008] And are they like, oh, these whales won't shut up?

[1009] That's a really good question.

[1010] You go straight to how you'd be annoyed.

[1011] That's how you anthropomorphized these other animals.

[1012] Well, yeah, I'd be like, oh, my God, I don't want to listen to them.

[1013] Talk all day.

[1014] Yeah, like put your earbuds in.

[1015] It's like someone on speaker foam.

[1016] Like a kind of nimby fish that's just sitting there and its reef going, ugh.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] It used to be so quiet before the world.

[1019] Whales moved in.

[1020] Now, they probably have a hearing like ours where we can't hear it, and they don't hear subsonic stuff.

[1021] This is a somewhat sad note, but an important one, I think.

[1022] Between the fact that we have killed a ton of whales and that we have flooded the oceans with the noises of ships and other elements of man -made industry, whales would hear far fewer whales and be able to hear them over much smaller distances.

[1023] And because most of these changes happened very recently, and because Wales, are long lived, there will be whales for whom the ocean feels like a lonelier place.

[1024] Oh, yeah, they're in the terrorist interrogation room with the heavy metal plane.

[1025] Yeah, very much so.

[1026] Oh, I don't like that.

[1027] You're so right because those blue whales can live over 100 years, right?

[1028] In this industry, oil rigs, internal combustion engine ships, that's 130 years old or whatever.

[1029] In just this century, I'm going to mangle the same.

[1030] stat, but I think this is roughly right.

[1031] The amount of shipping noise has gone up by, I don't know, 30 times.

[1032] It's deafening the conditions that we have inflicted upon the oceans.

[1033] As one person said to me, it's like if we had as much noise as we've added to the ocean in recent decades in our lives, it would be a health and safety violation.

[1034] Like, OSHA would come in and tell you to put headphones on.

[1035] Right.

[1036] I'm going to try to put a positive spin on this.

[1037] You hope that their brains are nimble enough to do what ours do and actually file noise into white noise.

[1038] Like someone in New York City does not hear New York City.

[1039] I hear it when I go there, but they don't.

[1040] Right.

[1041] I'll tell you a positive spin on this, right?

[1042] This problem, sensory pollution, like light and noise that disturbs animals that we've added to the world, this is the entire subject of the final chapter of the book.

[1043] And unlike a lot of ecological problems like plastics and toxins in the soil and the ocean, This is a problem we can fix immediately by switching things off.

[1044] If you stop the production of plastics right now, plastics will still despoil the world for decades and centuries to come.

[1045] If you stop sources of light and noise, they stop.

[1046] So it is a problem that is fixable if we have the collective societal will to do so.

[1047] And part of the argument for the book is to say, if we actually care about these creatures and if we understand the fact that their worlds are different to ours, we should make the effort to preserve those walls and to respect their umvalts.

[1048] Okay.

[1049] So that's a big call and there will be some segment of the population, the satisfizers or the maximizers.

[1050] We'll respond to them.

[1051] And then there's people like me who are selfish and want to take care of me and then my family.

[1052] So I'll just make an argument for them.

[1053] We are trying, we have been trying with so much effort.

[1054] We dedicate a huge portion of our population to understanding where we're, we're at in time and space, where we're going, we actually need to expand our um -veld to understand where we live.

[1055] And when we lose these creatures, they're the kind of disruptors in what we know.

[1056] They teach us things about the world we're living in that we can't otherwise even imagine.

[1057] I agree.

[1058] Without them, we almost put an end to a lot of our own advancement.

[1059] I know that doesn't appeal to you and that's antithetical to the book, but I will say for someone who's selfish in a ship had like me, it also selfishly behooves us to keep all of them around so we understand actually what we are living in, because we're very limited.

[1060] I think so, too.

[1061] For every species that dies, we lose a way of knowing the world.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] And I think that's really tragic.

[1064] Yes.

[1065] Yeah.

[1066] I got to say, it does make me, like, really more interested.

[1067] And now I'm feeling guilt that when I walk my dog and it tries the fucking smell, I'm like, come on.

[1068] I'm not like, we got to go more than five feet on.

[1069] this walk or it wasn't a walk.

[1070] Now I'm going to try to lock into their excitement about what they're on Twitter.

[1071] Give them some time.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] They act like they're on Twitter.

[1074] Like nothing in the world exists other than that fucking scent that's on that bush.

[1075] Typo needs to get his energy out.

[1076] So there'll be walks where you're like, we're walking.

[1077] But at least once a day, he controls the pace of the walk.

[1078] On those walks, we rarely do more than a block.

[1079] And it takes like half an hour to do the block.

[1080] But I think he's happier.

[1081] And if I'm bored, I can listen to a podcast.

[1082] But often I just like what.

[1083] watching him.

[1084] He's endlessly fascinated.

[1085] I think that dogs are happier and less anxious and just more dog -like.

[1086] He sniffs a lot and he noticeably does that compared to a lot of the other dogs that I know.

[1087] And I think it's because we've tried to encourage that from when we first got him.

[1088] I like that.

[1089] And I'm going to scale that up or transfer that to likewise when you have children, I make a real point to join them in their reality.

[1090] Because it's drastically different.

[1091] You know, like, I'll get down where they're at.

[1092] And I'm looking, oh, fuck shit.

[1093] Everything looks really.

[1094] big.

[1095] That dresser is enormous.

[1096] They're on shrooms, children.

[1097] You can kind of get a contact high from them if you allow yourself to.

[1098] It's hard to resist keeping them on some schedule where they're learning to walk, talk, read shit in a toilet and all that.

[1099] But sometimes, man, you get in that little guy's zone.

[1100] It's pretty great.

[1101] Ed Yong, this has been so fascinating.

[1102] I want everyone to get your book.

[1103] I'm going to read your book out loud to my children.

[1104] It's called an immense world how animal senses reveal the hidden realms around us.

[1105] It's out June 22nd, so everyone get an immense world, and I'm grateful for you.

[1106] Thanks, guys.

[1107] I appreciate you.

[1108] This is a lot of fun.

[1109] Go give your kids more troops.

[1110] Yeah, at some point.

[1111] I might have that correctly.

[1112] They'll let us know when they're ready.

[1113] Ed, great to meet you.

[1114] Great luck with the book.

[1115] Thanks for your time.

[1116] Take care.

[1117] Bye.

[1118] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Badman.

[1119] I did an emoji today.

[1120] Ding, ding, ding, duck, dog, goose emojis.

[1121] Wait, what?

[1122] What's that mean?

[1123] Ding, ding, ding, duck, duck goose.

[1124] You did an emoji?

[1125] Yeah, like, I did three bells and then two ducks.

[1126] Oh, you did?

[1127] Because I didn't have any googies.

[1128] Oh.

[1129] On the post?

[1130] Uh -huh.

[1131] Oh, wow.

[1132] Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[1133] Okay, if you could have any emoji, what would it be?

[1134] I know right out of the gates, there's a face I always want that's just not there.

[1135] Okay, what does it do?

[1136] It's like, it's a sincere smile.

[1137] Oh.

[1138] You know, it's like the options I have generally, it's like a bunch of teeth.

[1139] It's like too happy.

[1140] And I want one that's just like, thank you.

[1141] Oh, there's thank you.

[1142] There is, like as a face.

[1143] Uh -huh, let me show you.

[1144] Are you going to send it to me?

[1145] Sure, I'll send it.

[1146] Okay, send it my way.

[1147] Yeah, I mean.

[1148] Or this, but this is actually shot, in my opinion, shot.

[1149] Yeah, I can't find an emoji with dreadlocks.

[1150] You know, that's my version of appropriations.

[1151] Speaking of, I was in Austin and I went to the spot and my masseuse had dreadlocks.

[1152] White guy?

[1153] White woman.

[1154] Gray?

[1155] No, blonde.

[1156] I mean, yeah, like white blonde.

[1157] Yeah, okay.

[1158] Yeah.

[1159] I think you can pull it off of your like gray, white hair.

[1160] It was kind of white.

[1161] You know, like you just sleep outside too much.

[1162] You know what I'm saying?

[1163] Not really.

[1164] Okay.

[1165] Like hippie?

[1166] Yeah, like hippie locks.

[1167] Oh, well, yeah.

[1168] I assume she was hippie -ish.

[1169] But she was great.

[1170] She was.

[1171] Yeah, it was a really nice, good massage.

[1172] It was.

[1173] Did she get weird with you at all?

[1174] No. It's only the men.

[1175] No, but it was very, I did feel like it was really nurturing, which I like.

[1176] Like Anastasia.

[1177] Where is Anastasia?

[1178] She has private clients.

[1179] She won't do this.

[1180] What?

[1181] Oh, that's an update?

[1182] Yeah, she was ignoring Molly and Eric for a long time, and then I reached back out because Molly saw her in the parking lot at a whole food.

[1183] Oh, my God, and it was awkward.

[1184] She ran away.

[1185] She didn't.

[1186] They didn't make contact, but Molly was like, I'm pretty sure that.

[1187] Because we thought maybe she moved or didn't make it through COVID.

[1188] Right.

[1189] That was our concern.

[1190] Yes.

[1191] And I texted Anastasia.

[1192] Hi, I think Molly said she might have seen you.

[1193] I hope you're well.

[1194] Are you still taking clients?

[1195] Right.

[1196] And then she was like, oh, hi, Monica.

[1197] Basically, no. I mean, she was really, really nice about it, actually.

[1198] But I think she has some permanence that hold her.

[1199] Okay.

[1200] Also, maybe Eric got weird with her.

[1201] tried to grind the skin off the bottom of her feet with his cheese grinder or something?

[1202] No, that would be flattering.

[1203] As he's done yours.

[1204] That's right.

[1205] And I'm flattered.

[1206] And you love it.

[1207] No, anyway, it was really nurturing and I really liked it.

[1208] Oh, good.

[1209] She did some really nice hairplay.

[1210] Speaking of healing, Duck, Dog, Goose, I had so much time in the medicinal waters of Barton Springs.

[1211] Yes.

[1212] I really dedicated nearly my whole trip.

[1213] So this is an update.

[1214] Okay.

[1215] Because as people might recall, our last trip, there we were thrown out violently.

[1216] That's right.

[1217] Hostily, violently.

[1218] Pending lawsuit, class action.

[1219] There were so many of us.

[1220] So I went completely by myself on Friday.

[1221] Like Joy was supposed to come with me and anyways, I was solo.

[1222] And as I was walking up, I was like, I wonder if I'm banned permanently from Barton Springs because we talk so much shit about them after our violent hostile.

[1223] Well, we talked to the truth.

[1224] Right.

[1225] We talked so much truth about them.

[1226] Yes, thank you.

[1227] Well, I'm here to say that they let me in.

[1228] and it was a glorious time.

[1229] I feel like the overall alert level was returned to DefCon 5.

[1230] They didn't feel like they were on high alert so much.

[1231] It was much more casual.

[1232] First trip there, solo, three hours.

[1233] Nice.

[1234] I went in, I did 30 minutes of treading in the medicinal waters, 69 degrees, all year long, cold, cold plunge.

[1235] Felt great, got out, meditated in front of everyone, didn't care.

[1236] Great.

[1237] Well, there you probably just fit right in.

[1238] That's true.

[1239] That's a safe place to do it.

[1240] Legs cross, applesauce, like, euphoric.

[1241] Great.

[1242] Then back in, 30 minutes, back up, 10 -minute nap.

[1243] Oh, mine.

[1244] Laying there.

[1245] The people watching, incredible.

[1246] Oh, and then Erica Christensen, my TV sister, she joined me for the last half hour.

[1247] She shows up in a yoga outfit, yoga pants, and a sports prom.

[1248] We hang out for half an hour, and she's like, let's swim.

[1249] I'm like, that's the Eric, I know.

[1250] jumps right into her yoga outfit.

[1251] We swim around for a while.

[1252] and then I dropped her at the hotel.

[1253] Then we had the parenthood reunion.

[1254] So fun.

[1255] Really fun.

[1256] Then back to Barton Springs yesterday.

[1257] Four hours.

[1258] Wow.

[1259] Medicinal, fully healed.

[1260] I felt 105 % healed.

[1261] Great.

[1262] Zero body pains.

[1263] Proud of you.

[1264] Let's talk about the other fun stuff.

[1265] You did a speaking engagement that was sold out.

[1266] People were sneaking in, jumping over fences.

[1267] Well, it is a ding, ding, ding because there was a Q &A portion and one person asked if I I've changed my mind about Barton Springs.

[1268] Oh, really?

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] And I said no. Because you haven't been back.

[1271] I haven't been back.

[1272] Or are you still a little sore about it?

[1273] Oh, big time.

[1274] Oh, so when I was just telling these great ones, you were like, who cares?

[1275] I don't like that place.

[1276] No, I'm never, who cares.

[1277] I mean about Barton Springs.

[1278] I love that you love it, but I didn't need to go back.

[1279] You don't ever want to go back?

[1280] Until they build a cafe.

[1281] All right.

[1282] You know what I found out what it's all about?

[1283] Okay.

[1284] I mean, it's still thing.

[1285] Tell me. Tell me. I mean, and the world.

[1286] Apparently, there's a salamander that lives.

[1287] at the bottom of the springs.

[1288] Okay.

[1289] And if some food gets in there, that's not good for them.

[1290] Also, if there's food, there's more ants, and I guess the ants can kill a salamander.

[1291] So I guess when we find out that the very last salamander is gone, it's going to be food trucks and a bocnalia.

[1292] But I think they're still under the impression that there's a handful of salamanders there.

[1293] Look, I'm not anti -environmentalist, but it seems a little crazy to me. Okay.

[1294] A little crazy.

[1295] And there's salamanders everywhere in the world.

[1296] Why do they need them in that one area?

[1297] They got to have those salamanders there.

[1298] This is interesting.

[1299] Okay.

[1300] We're going to get some hate mail over this, but let's do it.

[1301] Well, no, I mean, I guess it's kind of cute.

[1302] There's like a mascot salamander that they don't want to lose.

[1303] They're underutilizing it.

[1304] There should be a big picture of it, so you fall in love with it when you walk in and go, I'm willing to not eat.

[1305] Oh, I get it.

[1306] Yeah, I've been to Barton Springs a hundred times.

[1307] I just found out about the salamanders.

[1308] Oh my God, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1309] Animals, right.

[1310] Okay, this is such a ding -ding -d -d -d -d -me because I'm starting to like animals more now.

[1311] Oh, you're warming to them.

[1312] After this episode and after an episode we did today.

[1313] Yes, which was very cool.

[1314] So I'm liking them more and more, but here's what I will never concede on.

[1315] Humans have to be prioritized over the animal.

[1316] I'm never going to let anyone tell me otherwise.

[1317] And there's babies there.

[1318] We brought babies who needed lunch.

[1319] Right.

[1320] So I'm sorry.

[1321] Either then you provide a cafe far away from the salamander.

[1322] I'm allowing that as an option.

[1323] Okay.

[1324] When you're mayor of Austin?

[1325] Yep.

[1326] Or you say, look, we have this salamander.

[1327] It's really important to us.

[1328] Please, you have to throw all your garbage.

[1329] You know, you can make that clear or have the cafe, but you can't.

[1330] Can't do that.

[1331] Apparently, it's a specific type of salamander that's endangered.

[1332] The lungless salamander.

[1333] Oh, geez, they don't even have lungs.

[1334] Talk about an animal that's too specific.

[1335] Like, it only lives in Barton Springs.

[1336] I'm sorry, you've made your environment way too small.

[1337] You're not going to make it regardless of this.

[1338] He's like you, though.

[1339] He loves it there.

[1340] You're right.

[1341] He looks kind of like you.

[1342] He does.

[1343] Oh, I got a huge nose and a weak chin.

[1344] He's got dreadlocks.

[1345] Oh, my God.

[1346] And you have kind of weak lungs because you're autoimmune.

[1347] Yes.

[1348] Oh, my God.

[1349] I am going to save this thing.

[1350] No, but I was thinking about this in terms of our water issues right now.

[1351] It's funny you bring that up because I was.

[1352] I was like, okay, we dammed up all these rivers.

[1353] One great thing about dams is they prevent all the fresh water from going out to sea.

[1354] We don't have fresh water.

[1355] Another huge benefit of dams, they create hydroelectric power, so we don't have to use coal.

[1356] And there was this huge movement torn down all these dams throughout the 90s and the 2000s, generally, I think, to protect the migration of fish, generally salmon, maybe some other kind.

[1357] And of course I value salmon and I value fish, but I was thinking, At what point does it tip?

[1358] And you're like, well, I'm sorry.

[1359] All of our fresh water is going out to sea, and we have no power.

[1360] Yeah, exactly.

[1361] Yeah, so I don't know.

[1362] Like, dams, are they going to come back?

[1363] Well, we should try to find power other ways.

[1364] For sure, but currently, it's the best one we have.

[1365] All of Las Vegas was powered by the Hoover Dam at one point.

[1366] There's nothing, you know, even nuclear, you got that tiny little risk of a meltdown, and you got the ways to contend with, even with our friend Bill's system, There's going to be a little downside.

[1367] Yeah.

[1368] We got to circle back to an important story.

[1369] Milk and honey.

[1370] Ding, ding, ding.

[1371] Spa.

[1372] Beautiful spa.

[1373] There's one in Los Angeles, too, if anyone wants to check it out.

[1374] Okay.

[1375] I lost my underwear.

[1376] Oh, okay.

[1377] I thought you, do you want to wrap up your speaking engagement?

[1378] Because I heard it was wonderful.

[1379] It was lovely.

[1380] It was at the Commodore Perry estate, which is a hotel.

[1381] Which I'm changing my name to Commodore.

[1382] You didn't love that, but.

[1383] No, I didn't.

[1384] No, you didn't like it.

[1385] Why?

[1386] And then I said, well, I'll have earned mine.

[1387] No, you said, oh, you sound like, I know exactly what you said.

[1388] You said, you sound like.

[1389] Yep, nexium.

[1390] What's his name?

[1391] Nexium guy.

[1392] Keith Renier.

[1393] Yeah, because he's the vanguard.

[1394] So it sounded similar.

[1395] But I'm so fine with you doing that.

[1396] But it's just, you also have megalith.

[1397] It's like there's so many.

[1398] I know.

[1399] I always want to evolve.

[1400] Dan Gaines is also my official name on my birth certificate now.

[1401] Dan Gaines, Commodore Dan Gaines, megalith.

[1402] Be false.

[1403] Oh, no, beef house is the place.

[1404] That's the place, yeah, house of beef.

[1405] And no one has to call me these names.

[1406] They're just my names.

[1407] I know, but I want to call you what you want to be called, and then I'm just getting an influx of info, and it's hard for me. But you're attracted to novel things as I am.

[1408] And I understand the times are changing, and I have to adapt.

[1409] Ever evolving.

[1410] Yeah, that's right.

[1411] So, anywho, so I lost my underwear.

[1412] This is what happened.

[1413] Anything more on the speaking engagement?

[1414] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1415] I want to applaud you.

[1416] Thank you.

[1417] You don't need to do that.

[1418] It was really lovely.

[1419] A bunch of beautiful arm cherries, incredible, lovely people, of course.

[1420] I got a sense in Austin this weekend that that's probably our most saturated market.

[1421] I don't think I've ever been stopped as frequently as I was this last four days.

[1422] There was so much, like, rubbernecking?

[1423] For Kristen.

[1424] Oh, okay.

[1425] So much.

[1426] Way more than I normally experienced with her.

[1427] One element of it.

[1428] Yes.

[1429] So when we first landed, it was a little overwhelming because because it was a little overwhelming.

[1430] ATX.

[1431] It's a television festival.

[1432] A lot of people come as tourists to see television things and bump into television people.

[1433] They've brought memorabilia.

[1434] Everyone's got cameras.

[1435] So, yeah, when we first land, I was like, ooh, it's a little hot.

[1436] You know, like, this is a little stifling.

[1437] And then as I got away from that venue and that event, I think it eased up a bit.

[1438] Also, when we got to the airport, so you guys, you and Kristen landed hours before me and Molly landed.

[1439] We send the escalators, and then there's, like, a group of people there, and they wanted to take a picture, and one of them said, I'm a cherry.

[1440] And I was like, okay, I got a little, like, that's not what they're called.

[1441] That's not what we're called.

[1442] Yeah, but she knew my name, so I was like, okay.

[1443] And then she's like, can I get a picture?

[1444] And I was like, sure.

[1445] And then there was a big group, and then they all wanted pictures.

[1446] And then one of them did say they came to our show.

[1447] So it was like, okay, you know, this is so weird.

[1448] I never feel this, but I was like, something's weird here.

[1449] Because I love it when people come up to us, but this one felt weird and was like everyone in the group was taking their term, but I could tell most of them didn't know.

[1450] They just, they recognized.

[1451] They knew you were famous on some level and they wanted to.

[1452] And then one of the people was like, we saw Dax here earlier.

[1453] And I was like, you saw Dax here two and a half hours ago and you're still standing at the end of the escalator.

[1454] So then I was like, oh, you're just like here to catch people coming off the Because of ATX.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] I don't think you recognize you were landing into ATX.

[1457] There's not normally a gaggle of people gathered at the bottom of the escalator when you fly to Austin.

[1458] It was unique because of the festival.

[1459] Anyway, that part was weird.

[1460] Back to my underwear.

[1461] Well, first of all, yeah, talk was beautiful, lovely.

[1462] Got to talk to so many arm cherries after.

[1463] They came up and chatted.

[1464] They were all so nice.

[1465] And Kelly, shout out Kelly, Krause.

[1466] She moderated, and she was so fun and cool.

[1467] Any guys come?

[1468] Okay, a few did, and actually one of them, shout out, was the creator, or in the family, of the Siette foods.

[1469] Oh, the grain -free chips.

[1470] Yes, and we love that.

[1471] Because he was like, we sponsored you guys, and I was like, oh, my gosh, yeah, and that's a delicious product.

[1472] Yeah, was he single?

[1473] Like, did he come to?

[1474] I don't know.

[1475] It was by himself.

[1476] Oh, my God.

[1477] Did any guys try to get your number?

[1478] No. Okay.

[1479] So anyway, that's going backwards in time.

[1480] Milk and honey.

[1481] Okay.

[1482] That's a spa spot.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] One of our party, Erica, her massage was a half hour before Molly and I. Oh, God.

[1485] I thought you meant a half hour long massage.

[1486] No, never.

[1487] What's the point of that?

[1488] That's cocktees.

[1489] So she went a half hour before us, and we had some time to kill, obviously.

[1490] Molly was like, is this a steamer?

[1491] And it was a shower with a steamer in it.

[1492] Okay.

[1493] A steam shower, if you will.

[1494] We were like, we can just go stand at it and get steamy.

[1495] So then we put our towels on, because if you know, if you've been in the steamer, everything gets very wet.

[1496] We didn't want to be there standing there naked because it wasn't like a steam room.

[1497] There's no seats or anything.

[1498] Yes, we were just standing there.

[1499] Do you think you all would have got naked if there were seats?

[1500] I probably still would have worn a towel Anyway we had robes on at that point And we were so arrogant That we took off our robes and underwear And we just put it We just put it on the couch Okay The communal couch That was really stupid I have so much regret around that Do you want to make an official amends To the milk and honey Yes I'm really sorry I did that I'm disgusted with myself I'm a bad person Is that part of the amends?

[1501] Yeah you always got to say I'm a piece of shit I don't deserve love I'm not going to say that.

[1502] But I do think it was a very arrogant, bad, self -obsessed piece of shit.

[1503] Entitled.

[1504] It was very entitled.

[1505] To be fair to us, we were the only people in there at the time.

[1506] So we got false security.

[1507] We went into the steam.

[1508] It wasn't very steamy.

[1509] Okay.

[1510] You guys all feel awkward once you're in there with not much steam?

[1511] It was just us too.

[1512] And we were like...

[1513] Oh, is this you and Molly?

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] Oh, okay.

[1516] Because Eric had already gone in.

[1517] Kristen hadn't come yet.

[1518] Okay.

[1519] So just us too.

[1520] And we were just standing there, kind of chatting, and I was like, eh, we should get out.

[1521] So then we come out, and of course, the robes are gone.

[1522] They've been cleaned up by the wonderful staff at Milk and Honey, and our underwear is gone.

[1523] Oh, boy.

[1524] And then we are panicking.

[1525] Pantia keen.

[1526] Mainly Molly, because she's wearing jean shorts that day.

[1527] With a very denim -y gusset, a grundle, a denim grundle.

[1528] So it's going to be denim on labia.

[1529] Yeah, I mean, like, you know, jean shorts.

[1530] Yeah, Daisy Dukes.

[1531] Especially girl, well, they weren't like upper butt.

[1532] I know.

[1533] I'm just, I'm excited about this story.

[1534] So she's in Daisy Dukes.

[1535] You're in a, I was in a long dress.

[1536] Were you a negligent?

[1537] I was in a long dress.

[1538] And so I was like, I'm just going to not wear underwear under this dress.

[1539] But she couldn't take that route because of the jean shorts.

[1540] So she was really upset.

[1541] So then we had to go find someone and be like, oh, I'm so sorry, but we left our entrepreneur.

[1542] And we're like, we'll go look for it.

[1543] Like, we don't want you guys to be like targeting around with our old, dirty, um.

[1544] underwear.

[1545] Hanky Panky's a very good brand, very trusted.

[1546] So then this woman comes out and she's like kind of looking flustered and she was like, was it you guys who?

[1547] And we were like, yeah, we're so sorry.

[1548] And she was like, looked everywhere and like, I don't, I think they must already be in the wash. Okay.

[1549] And Molly was like, well, then maybe we could get it after.

[1550] The service.

[1551] Yes.

[1552] And she was like, yes, absolutely.

[1553] And that drama's done.

[1554] Ha, ha, ha, ha.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] That was a goofy mix out.

[1557] Yeah.

[1558] Lost our underwear.

[1559] So silly.

[1560] Duck, duck goose.

[1561] We have our nurturing massages.

[1562] Come out and we're like, well, what do we?

[1563] We have to find that lady.

[1564] We're kind of looking.

[1565] We don't see.

[1566] And then Molly's going to be raw dogs and some Daisy docks.

[1567] She is like really panicked.

[1568] Yeah, yeah.

[1569] I don't want to laugh at her.

[1570] Right.

[1571] But it was our fault.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] So then she goes and finds a staff member and she was like, oh, we gave them to someone.

[1574] Some dudes.

[1575] Some dudes in cowboy hats.

[1576] She said, oh, no, we thought to the right people, but we gave them to someone already.

[1577] And we were like, who just received under -C -A -Food -A food guy?

[1578] Oh, ding.

[1579] There were no men in there.

[1580] Dong, dong, dong.

[1581] No. She was like, well, they're in a service, the person.

[1582] Oh, who grabbed the.

[1583] Yes.

[1584] Okay, my guess is they were in a bag or something.

[1585] And the person was like, here's what you left.

[1586] And then didn't open it to see that it was random undies.

[1587] And then we couldn't wait an hour.

[1588] Right.

[1589] So then we left.

[1590] We both didn't have underwear.

[1591] Molly was a trooper.

[1592] It was 95 degrees.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] And we were walking doing a 20 -minute walk.

[1595] Oh, my, you had a 20 -minute walk ahead of you with these Daisy Duke sound.

[1596] That's right.

[1597] Oh, boy.

[1598] Did she like drop a button and let him sag?

[1599] She didn't.

[1600] Oh, she wore them tight, high and tight.

[1601] But no, but then we stopped four.

[1602] for breakfast tacos, which were so delicious, and we happened to be close to your hotel, so Kristen ran in and brought undies for the both of us.

[1603] But I decided to opt out.

[1604] Good for you.

[1605] Texas, let it air out.

[1606] I did.

[1607] So anyway, that's that's that.

[1608] That's the underwear caper of 2022.

[1609] Last thing.

[1610] Okay.

[1611] Went out on the boat.

[1612] Oh yeah.

[1613] Ange is now a captain.

[1614] Your friend, Anne.

[1615] Angie Grimolius.

[1616] Well, that's not her last name anymore because she's married.

[1617] But yes, she's become a boat captain, and she's She gets to get a boat twice a month.

[1618] And so we went out, her, Rory, Joy, Kristen and I. Yep.

[1619] And it was heaven on earth.

[1620] I mean, but what a place.

[1621] It's just such a place.

[1622] Also, I got to throw out there four solid straight days with joy.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] God damn it, did we have fun?

[1625] I bet.

[1626] Oh, did we have fun.

[1627] That's a fun reunion.

[1628] Yes.

[1629] This was kind of fun.

[1630] Last thing.

[1631] We talk about Larry Trilling so much on here, right?

[1632] Josh Brolin episode, he was heavily talked about.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] So we were in the hotel lobby.

[1635] having drinks, I was having a tea, started with a camel meal, switch to mint.

[1636] Love mint.

[1637] Anyways, a couple of arm cherries there.

[1638] And one of the gales, she was telling me that she loves a show, blah, blah, listen to every single episode.

[1639] And I go, oh, my God.

[1640] Have you heard me talk about Larry trailing a bunch of times?

[1641] She's like, oh, my God, yeah, so many times.

[1642] I'm like, there he is, because I was with Larry.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] So Larry got to get some fandom from the cherries, too.

[1645] Well, that's fun, the cherries.

[1646] I know.

[1647] Now I'm going to use it.

[1648] Don't do that.

[1649] It'll be too hard for me to discern.

[1650] Okay, okay.

[1651] Well, that's fun.

[1652] It was really cool.

[1653] He was very cute.

[1654] I got to meet him for the first time as well.

[1655] Okay.

[1656] You said we talked to 55 guests in closets, but I didn't want to go back.

[1657] How could you?

[1658] Yeah.

[1659] I mean, I could.

[1660] But definitely more than 10.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] Oh, one comes to mind right now.

[1663] Remember how spectacular J .B. smooths closet was?

[1664] Oh, my God, yeah.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] The proverb with the elephant in the room.

[1667] Okay, I'm going to read it.

[1668] Indian and origin?

[1669] Well, roomy, a Persian poet.

[1670] Oh, Persian.

[1671] Like 13th century.

[1672] Okay, great.

[1673] This says by Julia Watkins.

[1674] That doesn't sound very Persian to me. Daily readings of the 13th century Persian poet as translated.

[1675] Okay, ready?

[1676] One by one, we go in the dark and come out, saying how we experience the animal.

[1677] One of us happens to touch the trunk, a water pipe kind of creature.

[1678] Another, the ear, a very strong, always moving back and forth, fan animal.

[1679] Another the leg, I find it still, like a column on a temple.

[1680] another touches the curved back a leathery throne another the cleverest feels the tusk a rounded sword made of porcelain he is proud of his description each of us touches one place and understands the hole that way the palm and the fingers feeling in the dark are how the senses explore the reality of the elephant if each of us held a candle there and if we went in together we could see it he uses a story as an example of the limits of individual perception right it's more of a tale of group unity, group participation.

[1681] It's nice.

[1682] It is.

[1683] What we can accomplish as a team.

[1684] Make the load lighter.

[1685] Make the elephant hole.

[1686] Make the elephant hole.

[1687] They should just condense the whole thing to that.

[1688] You know the old proper.

[1689] Make an elephant hole.

[1690] Like instead of Julia Watkins.

[1691] Do you think she got your undies?

[1692] Oh my God.

[1693] Could be.

[1694] Maybe.

[1695] She felt in the bag and she thought, oh, a very soft cloth to wipe off after my service.

[1696] Oh, gross.

[1697] She's going to use it to wipe?

[1698] No, because once she pulls it out in light, it was handed to her in the dark.

[1699] Right.

[1700] She put her hand in.

[1701] She was with a friend.

[1702] Two bags were just administered.

[1703] And Kelly Wondick went Watkins.

[1704] Julia Wankens.

[1705] She put her hand in in the dark, and she said, oh, it's a refreshing cloth to get the oil off my face after the service.

[1706] And then her friend, Becky Bynstein, she put her hand in and said, ooh, it's a thin.

[1707] She's holding the gusset.

[1708] What does she think?

[1709] Oh, it's a floss for our teeth after the service.

[1710] And then they found out in the locker room with light that they were hundle grundles.

[1711] Dirty grundies.

[1712] You know the panty and the spa proverb, right?

[1713] Okay, sharks can smell blood from three miles away is what you said.

[1714] He didn't like that.

[1715] Yeah, because it's overblown.

[1716] Okay.

[1717] A lot of people say like a quarter of a mile.

[1718] Okay.

[1719] Still great.

[1720] 1320 feet.

[1721] That's a long way to smell block.

[1722] This is the problem with exaggeration.

[1723] Now it seems like that's not very far.

[1724] I know.

[1725] But it is.

[1726] It's very far.

[1727] That's another proverb.

[1728] That was in a book.

[1729] That bums me out.

[1730] I read that to my child the night before.

[1731] Really?

[1732] Oh, she's full of so much disinformation.

[1733] Hopefully with her sister's combined perspective, they can get a whole picture.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] Prover.

[1736] Roomy.

[1737] Monica.

[1738] Julia.

[1739] Spa panty proverb.

[1740] How do sounds travel through water?

[1741] Okay, this is a condensed answer.

[1742] Obviously, I'm sure it's way more technical.

[1743] When underwater objects vibrate, they create sound pressure waves that alternately compress and decompress the water molecules as a sound wave travels through the sea.

[1744] Sound waves radiate in all directions away from the source like ripples on the surface of a pond.

[1745] Why is blood hot?

[1746] This came up a lot today in our today's interview, ding, ding, ding, duck, goose.

[1747] Easter egg Yes Sorry to interrupt Go ahead If someone listening Got your Pantaloon Do you want to return to you Like if it so happens That someone knows someone I was like Oh my God I think Karen was just telling me She got a free pair Aused underwear at the spa Like you know honey And milk's heating out Free old news honey If that happened Do you guys want These old skanky drawers I don't I don't speak for Molly.

[1748] She had a much different experience than me. Okay.

[1749] So if you have, well, what were the colors so they know which one's the male?

[1750] Mine was more of a nude.

[1751] I don't know what color hers was, but you can keep the nudeish, pinkie, pinky.

[1752] Whatever, the other one is.

[1753] Return and we'll get it back to its rifle owner.

[1754] That's right.

[1755] Send your unmentionables to the PO box.

[1756] Yes, please.

[1757] Oh, no. No. Decks, no. Now you're asking people to send us.

[1758] No, I'm not.

[1759] So it's out of the way.

[1760] Nope, I'm just saying.

[1761] Please don't send us your underwear.

[1762] Anyways, if you're in the audience, send your unmentionables in the box.

[1763] Okay, why is blood hot?

[1764] Metabolism, basically.

[1765] Body heat is generated by metabolism.

[1766] Chemical reaction cells used to break down glucose and water and carbon dioxide and insogenate ATP, a high energy compound used to power other cellular processes.

[1767] Yeah, ATP.

[1768] Ooh, we talk for a second about synesthesia, where you hear, you can like hear music.

[1769] Oh, my God.

[1770] People can hear music?

[1771] I know.

[1772] What animals can hear me?

[1773] Some people can hear music.

[1774] It's really rare.

[1775] No, but you can.

[1776] Taste numbers.

[1777] When you experiences one of your senses through another.

[1778] Ooh.

[1779] Now, I think I had it in middle school and below.

[1780] I think I've told you this.

[1781] I had like a little fetish a little bit about when teachers would say color.

[1782] Oh, I do recall this.

[1783] What would happen?

[1784] Like when they'd say, like, everyone take out a sheet of blue construction paper.

[1785] Like, I got, like, PQs.

[1786] Oh, my God.

[1787] Only when it was the color.

[1788] Like, get out your green folder.

[1789] Oh, my goodness.

[1790] So I have it with my...

[1791] You get triggered by your hearing, in this case, combined with your visual representation.

[1792] No, but hearing the word color, right?

[1793] It's not seeing it.

[1794] You're hearing the word color, but then you're getting...

[1795] nerve blasts in your cue, knowing your P. That's right, but it was only if it was a teacher.

[1796] And send all your undies and go for a long jog and just pull them out, put them in a zip lock.

[1797] Joy did not know PQs.

[1798] She was delighted with your PQs.

[1799] Yeah, it's important.

[1800] Yeah, she loved it.

[1801] Do you have any synesthesia moments?

[1802] I don't think so.

[1803] Not that I can think of.

[1804] I wish.

[1805] That sounds great.

[1806] If I get a DQ, Dairy Queen?

[1807] You love it.

[1808] I love Dairy Queen.

[1809] From hearing my teacher talk about Roy G. Bibb?

[1810] You know, that was the first time I knew something was like off because I asked my friend, this happens to me. And she was like, what?

[1811] You're a weirdo.

[1812] Oh, no, no, no, she's my best friend.

[1813] Okay.

[1814] She found it endearing, but definitely qualified me as a weirdo.

[1815] Was she jealous like I am?

[1816] I don't think so.

[1817] I think she was pretty happy to be on her normal course.

[1818] Okay.

[1819] I mean, don't most people want.

[1820] more PQs than less PQs?

[1821] I would, I hope.

[1822] I mean, yeah.

[1823] I do.

[1824] DQs, PQs.

[1825] But that's like every time you hear the lottery, you get an erection.

[1826] I'd love it.

[1827] I will say for women, it's probably easier to handle.

[1828] To deal with, yeah.

[1829] Yeah, you can just experience the cue.

[1830] Listen, when you're a young man and you're in school, you get fucking raging boners out of nowhere.

[1831] It's not even sexually, right?

[1832] Did you get them?

[1833] Yeah, the Texas talk that you got to do, the gym class.

[1834] Okay, so my thing would be, I'd be sitting at my desk, and I would have a raging boner.

[1835] And I would think, like, I got to push this.

[1836] I would push it down.

[1837] Yeah.

[1838] Thinking I could get it to go away.

[1839] But then that kind of was stimulating and make it worse.

[1840] And then I got to ignore it.

[1841] I mean, it was a thing you had to contend with.

[1842] We don't have that.

[1843] I don't like that as much.

[1844] Why not?

[1845] It's like encroaching on PQ.

[1846] Like, that's a female.

[1847] We want to, like, let that have space.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] Okay.

[1850] Let it have some space.

[1851] Okay.

[1852] Okay.

[1853] At some point, make one up so I can use it.

[1854] Okay.

[1855] How about just regular hornyness?

[1856] Okay.

[1857] Which is what you get all the time.

[1858] That's right.

[1859] DQ just sounds so stupid.

[1860] Like a soft ice cream code.

[1861] That's why I like it is it's like not, because most male stuff is just scary.

[1862] DQ already has its place in the armchair world.

[1863] That's true.

[1864] Okay.

[1865] Okay.

[1866] Okay.

[1867] Okay.

[1868] Noise, shipping noise.

[1869] Between World War II and 2008, the global number of ships rose by a factor of 3 .5 and the total gross toning.

[1870] by a factor 10.

[1871] Okay.

[1872] Also, we went from sailing and making no noise to steam powered, and then internal combustion and diesel electric.

[1873] A lot of noise.

[1874] And it's disrupting our oceans.

[1875] It makes me sad that the blue whales...

[1876] They can't hear each other anymore.

[1877] Well, we don't know that, but...

[1878] That's the worst case.

[1879] We think.

[1880] Like, save the blue whale, for sure.

[1881] But the three salamanders...

[1882] Okay, but we are here.

[1883] That's like you, we said.

[1884] You're looking a little pink.

[1885] I am?

[1886] Yeah, from the sun.

[1887] Yeah, well, I got, I'm telling you.

[1888] My arms are so dark.

[1889] I told Joy, my goal was to play brother and sister in a movie.

[1890] I'm not stopping until we play brother and sister.

[1891] You can't say that.

[1892] She liked it.

[1893] It won't be blackface because I'll actually be that dark.

[1894] But are you going to play a black person?

[1895] No, I'm just brother and sister.

[1896] We're playing a persons that don't exist yet.

[1897] It's in the future.

[1898] Like a new thing.

[1899] Like on Mars?

[1900] Could it be on Mars?

[1901] Maybe that does different stuff to melanin.

[1902] Melanin.

[1903] It's set in Anchorage, Alaska, because it's like deep into global warming.

[1904] It's the only place that's cool enough.

[1905] And then you just don't know what anyone is.

[1906] Colorblind.

[1907] Right, post -bracial.

[1908] Yeah, even though we're not doing that anymore.

[1909] No, we're not.

[1910] That's it.

[1911] All right.

[1912] All right.

[1913] Love you.

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