EXPERTS ON EXPERT: David Sedaris

[0] Hello, I'm Dack Shepard.

[1] Welcome to Armchair Experts, Bonus episode, Experts on Expert.

[2] Today, we have one of my all -time favorite writers and humorous.

[3] You've heard me talk about one of his stories, The Plague of Ticks.

[4] It led me to divulge my defecating routine at eight years old, which was highly embarrassing and ritualized.

[5] And if ever there were a person that could identify with the struggles of Ticks and OCD, it is our guest.

[6] David Sidaris.

[7] Monica?

[8] Yes.

[9] How pumped were we for David Sedaris?

[10] So excited.

[11] I mean, he's one of, he's a national treasure.

[12] I don't say that lightly.

[13] It was, it was, it was a dream.

[14] He's written so many amazing books.

[15] I just started reading his new book, Calypso, which is fantastic.

[16] I'm about a third of the way through it.

[17] And it's great because they're, they're short stories.

[18] So it's not this huge commitment.

[19] It's a great by the, uh, on the beach book this summer.

[20] Yeah.

[21] Or you know, I don't know, people, you can read a book anywhere.

[22] Yeah.

[23] On your cow.

[24] on the toilet.

[25] Let's get real on the toilet.

[26] Yeah, that's a great time to read.

[27] Doing your ritual.

[28] Mm -hmm.

[29] I guess I feel inclined, and you can cut this out if you disagree, but interesting path with David, had never met him in real life, had never even seen him in real life.

[30] Yeah.

[31] And I think we were both trying to get a grasp on, he's a very interesting, idiosyncratic, true original, human.

[32] Yeah.

[33] And right out of the gates, he hits us with some pretty bizarre behavior he does in public.

[34] But then we came to really fully understand where it's all coming from.

[35] It was nice.

[36] And we really wished we had three more hours because what an original human being.

[37] We'd love to have him back.

[38] Come back, David.

[39] Please enjoy our expert on writing David Sedaris.

[40] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and add free right now.

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[42] Or you can listen for free.

[43] you get your podcasts.

[44] As I've said in here many times soon as I put these headphones on, I just feel like my IQ went up about 15 points.

[45] I just feel like a real definitive, authoritative, that's not a word, but I just sound.

[46] Because you can hear you so?

[47] Yeah.

[48] Yeah, well, in...

[49] It drowns out.

[50] I can hear myself without any competing sounds.

[51] And it just, I feel like I sound professorial in these headphones.

[52] It really emboldens my confidence.

[53] I like it when I do an interview when I have had phones on.

[54] But Elaine Stritch, she asked her to come to the NYC Studios, WNYC, and do like just some fundraising stuff, you know, to read the promless with fundraiser.

[55] And she was always in a bad mood.

[56] And she got there and she said, I can't hear shit through these cans.

[57] David Sedaris, welcome to armchair expert.

[58] It's really fun to see you in real life because I've been a long, avid reader of your work and really with no mental picture in my head.

[59] Yeah.

[60] So this is...

[61] Well, I don't like to have my picture on my book.

[62] You're like Christopher Cross, the musician.

[63] I don't like, I don't understand why you have to have your picture.

[64] picture on everything.

[65] You know, why you constantly, you know, if you interviewed somewhere, they have to have your picture instead of a picture of, I don't know, a boat or something.

[66] Uh -huh.

[67] Well, I do think if we were promoting this episode, a picture of a schooner, people would be a little confused.

[68] They might think you were like a nautical expert.

[69] Do you think that's possible?

[70] Right.

[71] I don't know.

[72] I mean, there are any number of other things that you could take a picture of them.

[73] I just don't understand, especially when you write or if you're on the radio, uh -huh.

[74] Why you need to be, why your picture needs to be out there.

[75] Well, do you know this sad thing about Christopher Cross, the musician?

[76] I can only imagine you're familiar with his work.

[77] If you get lost between the moon and New York City.

[78] That's one of my favorites.

[79] That and sailing, of course.

[80] But they wouldn't let him be on his albums.

[81] Like the label had decided that women had this idea of what he looked like in their head because he was such a beautiful singer.

[82] And he just didn't live up to that mental picture, apparently.

[83] and they kept him off of his album covers.

[84] And I always found that a little heartbreaking, albeit maybe good for album sales.

[85] It still feels very, I would have felt very triggered and insecure when I heard that news.

[86] Huh.

[87] Yeah.

[88] I mean, what did he?

[89] So to your point, I think there were just sailboats on the covers of those albums.

[90] And I guess it did work.

[91] It worked.

[92] He sold a ton of albums.

[93] Well, how bad was it?

[94] His face?

[95] Yeah.

[96] It's not terrible.

[97] It's not like, he's not the hunchback of Notre Dame.

[98] He was bald.

[99] That's an issue, I guess, for some of the female listeners.

[100] I think they were imagining more of like a Tom Selleck type, right, in the early 80s.

[101] Wasn't he the archetype?

[102] He just wasn't a stud, is what you're saying.

[103] Well, I feel like when music videos came along, it kind of changed a lot.

[104] And then all of a sudden, people who were good looking had music careers just because they were good looking and they were in videos.

[105] Country music allowed people to be ugly.

[106] Uh -huh, sure.

[107] Allowed men, at least, to be unattractive.

[108] Yeah, not women.

[109] You still had to be hot.

[110] Right.

[111] Yeah.

[112] And a lot of rap people are pretty hard to look at.

[113] Yeah.

[114] Again, the men, the men, not the women.

[115] Yeah.

[116] Well, that's the great injustice between men and women is that if you're a man, you can look like Frankenstein, but if you have a certain swagger and persona, you can transcend.

[117] how you look, right?

[118] Like I would say, when I think of Johnny Cash, I think, well, that's a stud.

[119] Even though maybe without the persona, he's not, right?

[120] And some of the rappers, as you say, like Biggie Smalls, humongous fella.

[121] I mean, as big as you could get and still pulling in a lot of activity from females.

[122] And that's that's an option that men have that women don't.

[123] And it feels very unfair.

[124] You know what I'm saying?

[125] There wouldn't be a 400 -pound hip -hop.

[126] female singer, who's also getting tens every night.

[127] It's just not going to happen in this country, at least.

[128] Can I ask you a question?

[129] What's your day been like?

[130] Are you on a book tour?

[131] You're promoting Calypso.

[132] Is that accurate?

[133] Yeah, I'm on a book tour, but this is the last day of my book tour.

[134] Oh, and do you have any elation because of that?

[135] Probably, no. I go home, I go home tomorrow, and then this is.

[136] This is a Thursday.

[137] And then on Monday, I start my UK tour.

[138] And that'll last for a month.

[139] Okay.

[140] In home is England.

[141] For how many years now?

[142] Gosh, we never really, it's not like we packed and left France.

[143] You know, we just kind of drifted over and go back and forth.

[144] But I've had a place there since 2002.

[145] Okay.

[146] So 16 years.

[147] Yeah.

[148] And where are you spending the bulk of your time?

[149] In a little hamlet outside of a village.

[150] in West Sussex.

[151] And could you give the listeners your exact address so they could stop by and offer you things?

[152] You know, in England, your zip code is your exact address.

[153] Your zip code is your exact house.

[154] Oh, really?

[155] Everyone has their own zip code?

[156] How long is the zip code?

[157] 29 digits long?

[158] No, it's six.

[159] It's a combination of letters and numbers, and it's six of them.

[160] The logical part of my brain is telling me that this is not possible what you're describing.

[161] That somehow you would only have six.

[162] numbers yet everyone would receive mail.

[163] There must be more than let's see six.

[164] I'm going to do some quick math, Monica.

[165] Six would be what?

[166] 99 ,000, right?

[167] That would be six digits.

[168] So that could only account for 99 ,000 residents.

[169] Those headphones do make him smart.

[170] Don't, don't I sound really smart when I crunch those numbers like that?

[171] My address is the name of my house.

[172] Oh.

[173] The name of my hamlet and the in and in the town it's outside of okay oh so there's other clues my zip code and then west sussex okay the house like the house had a name when we bought it all the houses have names so i'm stopped constantly my people asking me can i tell them where pine cottage is oh Can I tell them where Dewhurst is?

[174] And I don't know.

[175] Okay.

[176] I was going to say you come to know a mall?

[177] Much easier for delivery men if you could just give the name, the street and the number.

[178] But they don't do it that way.

[179] But our house is it's called Swan Cottage.

[180] Swan Cottage.

[181] And it came with that name.

[182] And it's, I don't know, 450 years old.

[183] 450 years old.

[184] Yeah.

[185] So I don't know if it was always called Swan Cottage or somebody changed it.

[186] But the only other house we looked at when we were.

[187] we're considering places was called faggot stacks.

[188] Oh, that's great.

[189] And the reason and the whole reason to buy that.

[190] That's a stack of sticks, right?

[191] Yeah.

[192] The old version of that word.

[193] Yeah.

[194] The whole reason to buy that place was its name.

[195] And then the people who bought it changed its name.

[196] Oh.

[197] And I don't think that.

[198] So I would like to say, well, fine, give me the name.

[199] Just swap names.

[200] Make him Swan Sunset or whatever you said.

[201] Swan Cottage.

[202] Swan Cottage.

[203] Swan Cottage.

[204] And we'll be faggot stacks.

[205] Yeah.

[206] You could take.

[207] the word back, like the black community's done with the N word.

[208] That could be the first flag you plant in taking it back.

[209] Yeah, it's kind of like adopting a dog, I guess, right?

[210] If you rescue a dog and it's a beautiful, cute dog, but its name is Sophocles.

[211] You're like, fuck, all right.

[212] Well, I guess it's worth it.

[213] Well, we have a house on the coast of North Carolina.

[214] Okay.

[215] And the houses there all have names, too.

[216] Oh, really?

[217] A little bit different.

[218] because the houses there, an old house was maybe an old house, was built in 1975.

[219] Okay.

[220] Or maybe 1965, a really old house.

[221] And those houses have names.

[222] But like our house, when we bought it, was called Fantastic Place.

[223] But when I was young, and we would go down there.

[224] That's such a 70s name, by the way.

[225] Well, when we were kids and we were good on that, the names were all pun names, right?

[226] Like crabba -dabidoo.

[227] Oh, okay.

[228] And clam a lot and dune our thing.

[229] Oh, I like these.

[230] So we changed our house to the C section.

[231] And then we just bought the house next to our house.

[232] And we're going to call that either the amniotic shack or canker shores.

[233] Oh, I love that.

[234] And then we're going to get a boat and we're going to call it Roe v. Wave.

[235] Ooh.

[236] And my sisters and I are going to perform abortions at sea.

[237] Oh, that's so romantic.

[238] We're going to need them last season.

[239] It's really romantic.

[240] Get out in international waters and I think you're free to practice any kind of medicine you'd like without a license.

[241] Well, apparently there already are people who do that, who practice.

[242] Oh, they do out in the international.

[243] Who perform abortions at sea.

[244] Oh, really?

[245] Interesting.

[246] Do you know, I too have named a fantasy boat.

[247] What's yours?

[248] D's not.

[249] K -N -O -T -S.

[250] These knots.

[251] I was writing that in a script and I almost was like it's too good to give to the world.

[252] I want to keep this name for my own boat.

[253] I really had like a whole one hour debate in my head about whether I should give that away or not.

[254] Do you have any thoughts like that when you're writing?

[255] Well, you know, I came up with a word.

[256] I have an essay coming out in The New Yorker.

[257] And I was in, so I was working on it and reading an out.

[258] loud, right?

[259] And I was at a gun, it's about, I went to a firing range with my older sister.

[260] And so we were at a, we were at the firing range and they sell a line of clothing that you can conceal a weapon in.

[261] And so they had something called, there were boxer briefs and they were called compression concealment shorts.

[262] And so I thought I would call them gunderpants.

[263] Sure, sure.

[264] So this woman wrote.

[265] She wrote to my agent and said, I'm starting a podcast.

[266] Can I call it Gunderpants?

[267] Uh -huh.

[268] And it's like a word, I made it up.

[269] Yeah, it's your word.

[270] And I'm not going to be, you know, sure, go ahead.

[271] But I don't see how it's a good name for a podcast.

[272] Well, I would disagree with you there.

[273] I think it's a great name for a podcast.

[274] I would listen to Gunderpants in a heartbeat.

[275] Yeah.

[276] I would think somebody would have to go with Gunderpants.

[277] The overlap that's now happening, because can I tell you something?

[278] I invented a word for the last movie I made.

[279] And I was trying to describe the area that's outside of a cameltoe, right?

[280] Like someone's looking at a woman.

[281] That's called the woman.

[282] Yeah.

[283] Okay, well, not surrounding the camel toe.

[284] But the actual area of fabric that is covering the cameltoe, right?

[285] And so I came up with the term banana grundle.

[286] It's kind of close to gunderpants.

[287] Banana grundle.

[288] Yeah, banana grundle.

[289] He says to me, he says, how does he say it, Monica?

[290] He says, oh, my God, does it have a reverse stitching with a banana grundle?

[291] And I go, what the fuck is a banana grundle?

[292] And he's like, the gusset, the gusset.

[293] Trying to, he wants me to look over and see what he's seen.

[294] And he describes it as a banana grundle.

[295] Because you think grundle means.

[296] Gusset.

[297] Or gussie.

[298] And you think it means bloomers.

[299] We've had this conversation before.

[300] Right.

[301] The things that the cheerleaders wear under their skirts, I thought were called Grundies.

[302] And they're bloomers.

[303] I didn't mean to hijack your great invention.

[304] No, no, no, no. And you could also approach the company under armor and do Gunder armor.

[305] Hmm.

[306] Right?

[307] Yeah, that you would hold weapons in.

[308] The sky's the limit.

[309] I was curious, are you ever comfortable sharing with the world in writing things that you would maybe be uncomfortable with talking about publicly?

[310] Is there any kind of division where you go like?

[311] Sometimes when I go on a tour and there's a Q &A, I get questions like you'd ask your cousin.

[312] Uh -huh, sure.

[313] What's your dad up to?

[314] How's your brother?

[315] Mm -hmm.

[316] I know, actually, people would say, how's Paul?

[317] And I would think, how's your brother, Paul?

[318] Right.

[319] Like, I know him and you don't.

[320] Right.

[321] But then, no, it doesn't keep me up at night.

[322] I just always figure, you know, you probably get the.

[323] questions that you deserve.

[324] I mean, I think I'm probably better at writing about things and talking about them just because I have more time to choose my words or figure how to get an in and out of it.

[325] But I don't have any big problem with him.

[326] Because I've had, I've, this has happened on this podcast where a good friend of mine had written this amazing essay on this topic.

[327] And she was very honest about this, you know, her own personal story in that essay.

[328] And so I just stupidly assumed, oh, she'd love to talk about it.

[329] She already published it, you know?

[330] And I quickly kind of detected that, oh, she was, she felt safe writing it.

[331] And it was a very controlled as you get to do.

[332] You get to reread and edit and change.

[333] And the controls she had over it in essay form, she probably didn't feel in a conversation about it and just didn't want to.

[334] And I was like, oh, I hadn't really thought about that.

[335] I guess I thought, oh, if you publish something, you probably don't mind talking about it.

[336] And you've obviously written a ton of personal stuff about yourself.

[337] Yeah, but I don't never feel like i gave anything away like i never felt like it was anything revealing in an important way like to me like one of the things like i published parts of my diary in a book but i edited it so i went through it and i chose what to include and what not to include so somebody else is that it would be completely different but like People don't know who gets to me, right?

[338] Right, right.

[339] You don't know who I lie awake at night hating.

[340] Uh -huh.

[341] Now, that would make me feel exposed.

[342] It would.

[343] I don't mean like a politician.

[344] I don't mean that.

[345] I think that's easy enough.

[346] But I mean, you know, just in terms of, you know, people I've crossed paths with.

[347] pass with or people who have said things, you know, you don't want people to know that they have that power over you.

[348] Sure.

[349] Yeah.

[350] Well, I am a, um, about as big of an oversharer as there is, right?

[351] I talk about getting sober.

[352] I talk about being molested.

[353] I talk about, I talk about so much stuff that it would be almost impossible to assume that anything would bother me if you asked me in an interview.

[354] But I, you know, I'm not one of those.

[355] people like when people will say oh he was really oversharing i think i don't really understand that term i really don't understand it like i would rather hear about like somebody having gastrointestinal virus i mean as long as it's a good story i love hearing about i love hearing about things like that i don't sure when people say oh this might be too personal i don't see those words too and personal really going together.

[356] If someone's telling me a story, I don't.

[357] I agree, but this just happened to me this week, which is I was working with another actor, older actor, who is also sober.

[358] And we were in a group of like eight people sitting in our chairs, just, you know, waiting for them to set up.

[359] And he and I were kind of shop, swapping, using stories, right?

[360] And his story, you know, he's got a story about, you know, plowing into eight cars in the 70s, and then the cops came and the, story he told and blah, blah, blah.

[361] And then we're talking, he's talking about, you know, he didn't want to get too high in a scene.

[362] So he just did a skin pop of heroin instead of in the vein.

[363] And I'm loving every bit of it because I'm an addict too.

[364] And this is all like par for the course.

[365] And I did notice, I like just glanced at a couple of people listening.

[366] I thought, this is a, this is all very terrifying for the people that are listening to this, who have no real experience or relationship with that world.

[367] This sounds like we're talking about juggling chainsaws or something.

[368] But to he and I, it just sounded, it was very entertaining and they were all great stories and I could have listened to a million more about it.

[369] But it did give me a little window into when I'm talking about Odine in an alley on GHB.

[370] Some people are bothered by that, you know, that can be scary for some people.

[371] So I guess in that way, I can be an overshare.

[372] Uh, no, you know, sometimes you'll meet somebody and you'll realize that they were talking like for eight minutes at a stretch.

[373] Mm -hmm.

[374] That's a problem.

[375] You know.

[376] Where was I at just a second ago?

[377] No, no, no, no, I don't mean that, but there's a way of, of, I guess, pausing or asking a question you don't really want, need an answer to, but that can just open a story up, you know, a story when people are talking.

[378] Right.

[379] And, and allow it to breathe.

[380] And when you go on a tour or you're being interviewed, you, that's what you, that's what you lose, I think.

[381] right you're led to believe that you're really that interesting and that everybody really wants you to talk for eight minutes at a stretch when in real life it's like oh my god when is that person going to shut out but that's not oversharing that's just holding the floor too long yeah that's maybe just a little lack of self -awareness yeah checking in with your audience stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare we've all been there turning to the internet to Self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[382] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[383] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[384] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[385] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

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[389] What's up, guys?

[390] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[391] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[392] And I don't mean just friends.

[393] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[394] The list goes on.

[395] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[396] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[397] When you do these Q &As and stuff, you've done a bunch of live stuff from what I can gather.

[398] Yeah, yeah.

[399] I have a lecture agent, and so he sets up these tours for me. So every fall and every spring I go out.

[400] And so I probably go to 100 cities a year.

[401] And then when there's a book tour, then, so in addition to my 100 cities this year, I'm probably, I'm going to, then I have got like, probably an extra three months of book tour, you know, in the United States and in England, and then I'm going to Germany and go to Italy and go to Greece.

[402] If I can be crude and talk marketplace with you, what percentage of your books are sold?

[403] internationally versus domestically.

[404] And I know that that term doesn't even apply to you now that you live in England.

[405] Right.

[406] Most of my books are sold in the United States.

[407] They are.

[408] Like what percentage would you guess?

[409] Oh, gosh.

[410] Let's see.

[411] I would say probably, I don't know, 70, 80 percent.

[412] Okay.

[413] But then you go to a place, you know, like I'm going to the Philippines.

[414] And I thought, what are you people doing here?

[415] It was, I wasn't prepared.

[416] I didn't know that anybody in the Philippines read my book.

[417] Sure.

[418] And I wasn't prepared, you know, you would do an event and there would be like, you know, how many people are, five, 600 people at the event in Manila.

[419] My first thought would be, oh, they're not even going to understand what I'm saying.

[420] Do you have that fear when you're like in a non -English speaking country and you're...

[421] I did something once at the forum in Rome.

[422] Oh, okay.

[423] So that was like, I don't know, maybe 3 ,000 people there.

[424] Oh, boy.

[425] But then I read, but then they got Italian, an Italian actress read, and then, yeah, it was just me and her.

[426] But then they had a big jumbotron set up.

[427] So it was interesting watching her, you know, so she was there for people who didn't speak English very well.

[428] And I know she got a much, much bigger response than I did.

[429] But in general, do you enjoy this being on stage?

[430] I love it.

[431] You love it.

[432] Oh, love it.

[433] Oh, that's great.

[434] That's what I would hope for you.

[435] Sometimes, you know, you read something and you think, oh, my God, if I have to read this one more time.

[436] But then you think, okay, I'm going to be bored for 20 minutes reading this.

[437] And look at everybody else's job.

[438] Oh, sure.

[439] You know, you can't always put yourself, put things in perspective.

[440] But I don't know.

[441] That's one of those situations where you think it's really an insult to working people to moan because you're bored for 20 minutes reading something.

[442] It's not very endearing if you're up on a roof right now listening to this, 110 degrees working with hot tar.

[443] Like, really, bud?

[444] Was it a bummer reading that story out loud for X amount of money?

[445] But I never wanted to be an actor.

[446] Okay.

[447] You had no showbiz dreams.

[448] I took, I was in the drama club in high school, but the second that I got on stage, then all these nervous tics kicked in.

[449] And what you were seeing, where you were seeing somebody in just full blossom.

[450] And that's what the audience was seeing.

[451] Uh -huh.

[452] And I like seeing, there's a guy in the audience the other night who just had a whole lot going on.

[453] Sure.

[454] And I love seeing that.

[455] And it's kind of exciting to see, to be in front of somebody who's.

[456] For people who can't see David, he is moving his neck around in an inexplicable fashion, repetitively.

[457] Just, you know, someone who's got ticks or somebody, sometimes he'll do a show and someone will say, Yeah.

[458] Uh -huh.

[459] Sure.

[460] And you realize it's someone in the audience with Tourette's and I just, it makes me so happy.

[461] Yeah.

[462] You know, I just identify with that.

[463] I have never in my life read something that I connected to so much on a cellular level is when I read Plague of Ticks, which is what, the second story in naked, your second book.

[464] Maybe it's the first story.

[465] Is it the first story?

[466] Gosh, I haven't opened that book in so long.

[467] um yes i read that if you've not read plague of ticks i just uh it's my mirror neurons were going bananas because i did so much of the stuff i pray that that's really was your childhood was it oh yeah yes so i i i took such great comfort in knowing that i wasn't the only person that was living in a in madness i was living in madness i assumed i was the because it makes you i felt so weird about it because the things I were doing were they were very they did they had no explanation that I don't know why I was doing them you know and I had never in my life connected the dots that I quit all that when I started smoking I would have never come to that conclusion but when I read it in your book I go oh I think that's about the exact same age I stopped doing all that stuff it was in high school when I started smoking cigarettes some of it you can age out of apparently I mean, I wrote that story, and then I was embraced by both the Tourette's and the Tourette people and the OCD people.

[468] Okay.

[469] And I said, gosh, to my mind, it went away when I started smoking, which is when I was 20.

[470] Right.

[471] And they said, that sounded about right to them.

[472] And that it can, well, you know, some of it you age out of.

[473] Yeah.

[474] I was afraid when I quit smoking that it was all going to come back.

[475] Uh -huh.

[476] And so it can come back.

[477] but it doesn't stay the way you used to.

[478] Like if I have to go on TV or something, and then I think, then it could come back because I think, oh my God, that would be the worst thing that can happen is you're going to get on TV.

[479] I'm, you always think you're hiding it, right?

[480] Right, right.

[481] If I go on stage and there's a plexiglass, plexiglass podium, I spend all night touching my dick.

[482] Okay, okay.

[483] Because I have to because everybody can see it.

[484] Right, and you're not supposed to.

[485] Right.

[486] And then sometimes I do that thing and you go into the pocket.

[487] And sometimes it's like you're brushing the front of your pants.

[488] Okay.

[489] But I am busy doing that.

[490] Pocket pool from beginning.

[491] All night because I know that I don't because is anyone ever lodged to complain about that?

[492] Has anyone said like love the show, but.

[493] My sister Amy was in the audience one night.

[494] And she said, what was going on with your dick?

[495] Because again, you're up there and you're thinking, oh, nobody can notice.

[496] And they just think that.

[497] I've got lint, you know, on the front of my pants.

[498] Sure.

[499] This being steadily replaced, you know, for an hour and a half.

[500] Cycled through.

[501] So it's only if it's clear.

[502] If it's like a wood podium, you don't have that issue.

[503] Then I don't have to do it.

[504] I can explain that.

[505] I can explain that because if we share this, what happens in my brain almost all day, every day is from the second an interaction starts, I'm all I can think of is the single worst thing I could do.

[506] it's just like it's my first thought is the worst thing that could be done and then I then come to what would be socially acceptable and I try to land on that second thing but the first thing is like I want to point out something you're probably really insecure about I you know I'm going to say this word I shouldn't say it's just that's that's where my thinking starts but when you walk into a room do you just start gathering little clues like oh I could really fuck up by pointing out that and then I could mention this woman's got you know she's losing her hair and then you know do you just kind of take a Like a superhero.

[507] You just kind of see every bad thing that could be exposed right now.

[508] Well, it's interesting because, yeah, I do do that.

[509] But then I found that signing books is a place that allows you to do all of that.

[510] Oh, really?

[511] All of it.

[512] And say things and do things that are so.

[513] This woman tried to, I guess, I don't have Twitter or anything, but I was told that this woman came to get a book signed.

[514] And let's say her name was Monica.

[515] And so I said, Monica, have you ever had sex for money?

[516] And then I guess she tweeted, you know, that that's inappropriate and how dare.

[517] And it seems like whenever you apologize, you get piled on.

[518] So I thought if someone came and said, why would you say that to a young woman would say because she looked like a whore?

[519] That was going to be here.

[520] Yeah.

[521] But so sometimes when I'm signing books, I can just, I mean, sometimes I can't believe.

[522] And you wonder, like I just keep waiting for someone to punch me in the face.

[523] I keep waiting.

[524] And I can almost taste how that's going to happen.

[525] Sure, sure.

[526] And how that's going to feel like, you know, to have somebody leap across the table.

[527] Well, it's not.

[528] You know, it's like, oh, here's a drawing of Snoopy.

[529] And where's Snoopy?

[530] Where is he?

[531] Where is he?

[532] Oh, look, there's a house.

[533] Is that Snoopy's dog house?

[534] No, that's a whorehouse your mother works at.

[535] And look at all those people.

[536] Snoopy is lined up to fuck your mother in the ass.

[537] Uh -huh.

[538] And is that an exact thing you've said or just this is in theory?

[539] No, I know.

[540] I said that to somebody a couple nights ago.

[541] Oh, wow.

[542] I mean, I would think it was funny if somebody drew that in my book.

[543] But you never know anymore.

[544] You just don't know.

[545] but a couple things a i identify with i would love to have someone talk to me like that because basically i'm just looking at all moments to get out of boredom i think and that would be unexpected and then i i wouldn't even know how to predict my reaction that's exciting right and then i also think there's an element of you as to your point of saying i'm waiting to get punched in the face i have to imagine part of this experience for you is like standing on a very tall skyscraper where a big portion of your brain is just begging you to jump.

[546] Do you think that's a similar sensation?

[547] Yeah.

[548] Like, of course, you don't want to jump to your death, but yet a large part of your brain is begging you to jump to your death.

[549] And you probably don't want to get punched in the face, but yet you desperately would love to get leveled by somebody.

[550] Well, at the same time, I think you can use certain language.

[551] But, I mean, one person can use language in one.

[552] I could take those same things and say it in a way that's horrible, but I think there's a way to say it jolly.

[553] I mean, I insist that there's a way to say anything, a jolly way to say pretty much anything.

[554] Right.

[555] So it sounds like maybe it's a fun, amusing game for you and a challenge.

[556] Yeah.

[557] I mean, I enjoy that feeling of, you know, spiraling out of control and, were just for things getting more and more ridiculous.

[558] And then you think, gosh, how worse can this get?

[559] And then you think, well, I guess I'll know in an hour.

[560] Uh -huh.

[561] How much worse I can get.

[562] Uh -huh.

[563] I have a very similar thing.

[564] I think it's a little bit different now because, I don't know, people can be so sensitive, you know, when you're doing a show.

[565] And you can't even predict it anymore.

[566] You know, what somebody would be.

[567] I mean, I wrote an essay.

[568] I went to different countries and I asked people, you know, what's the worst thing?

[569] What do you say when people cut you off in traffic or what's the worst thing that anyone's ever said to you?

[570] And in the Netherlands, if somebody cuts you off in traffic, you could call them a cancer whore or a tuberculosis whore.

[571] In Denmark, you would say, why don't you run around in my ass?

[572] Oh.

[573] In Romania, I'd say I dragged my balls across your mother's memorial cake, right?

[574] So I read that essay one night.

[575] And the essay, the whole point of it is to show how weak, like, fuck you, is.

[576] You know, this is nothing.

[577] How unimaginative as well.

[578] And this woman writes, and she said, I was at your show with my oldest son who has cancer.

[579] Oh, boy.

[580] And how do you think it felt to me when you're up on stage saying cancer for a laugh?

[581] And I thought, when she went with a letter, I thought, well, I don't know, why is he even cancer as a laugh?

[582] And then I thought, oh, I guess she's talking about cancer horror, which is not anything I made up, right?

[583] I'm just relating it.

[584] Yeah.

[585] And so then what am I supposed to remove it?

[586] Am I supposed to not because I think, well, there might be some people in the audience with cancer.

[587] I mean, there's always going to be, you know, people going through stuff.

[588] Well, Sarah Silverman has a great routine.

[589] about exactly what you're saying and what her conclusion after doing tons of thinking about this because she has this long, long joke, I'll never do it justice, but it's about her wanting to adopt a child and you've heard it, right?

[590] Oh, I love that.

[591] And, you know, it all ends up with her saying that, you know, she's probably not going to be able to get one because she's older and not married.

[592] She'll probably have to get a retarded one.

[593] And then she says, you know, but then I'm very nervous that if I have a retarded one who will take care of the child once I die.

[594] So then I decided the best solutions to get a terminally ill retarded child.

[595] And she told that, I guess, at a TED conference or something.

[596] And there was outrage over it.

[597] And her conclusion, after all this thought and investigation was, there was not a single terminally ill retarded child who was offended by the joke.

[598] There were a bunch of advocates for those different things who were offended.

[599] So what you really end up doing is you're apologizing to a fucking advocate.

[600] So in your case, I don't know that the son with cancer gave a shit about the thing you said.

[601] You're now trying to make the mom happy when she's offended, not that, you know, so yeah, I do think there's a lot of advocates that end up getting all these apologies that the groups themselves aren't even demanding.

[602] Right.

[603] No, that seems to, 99 % of the time, that seems to be the case.

[604] Yeah.

[605] But I will say you're also in a, you're in a good position to have this weird approach of yours during book signings.

[606] And because you're not six foot four muscular, right?

[607] Right.

[608] You're not super alpha straight guy.

[609] Right.

[610] So you get a little latitude, don't you think, that I'm glad you're utilizing.

[611] I mean, there's so few benefits to being.

[612] traditionally openly gay in America, so I would hope you would be cashing in on the few maybe advantages to that.

[613] Well, I'm not physically threatening.

[614] I'm not a threatening presence.

[615] And so I think that's why, you know, if somebody is going up to people and asking them for money, they're going to come to me before they come to you.

[616] Right.

[617] Sure, sure, sure.

[618] I mean, I got on a plane one day, and a guy was sitting in my seat.

[619] And I said, that's my seat.

[620] I said, oh, there must be some mistake.

[621] That's my seat.

[622] He said, well, it's mine now.

[623] Find some other place to sit.

[624] Oh, wow.

[625] And I said.

[626] That really happened.

[627] Yeah.

[628] And I said, what?

[629] I said, and he said, there are plenty empty seats on this flight.

[630] Find one.

[631] And I said, but I'm, see, the difference is I'm not an asshole.

[632] So if I take a seat and someone says, that's my seat, I'm going to say, I'm going to stand up.

[633] And I'm going to spend this whole time.

[634] looking for one of those free seats you're talking about.

[635] Uh -huh.

[636] Right?

[637] Yeah.

[638] But I think if you had said, that's my seat, he would have said, okay.

[639] Sure.

[640] And conversely, if Mike Tyson said this dog house is where your mother's getting butt -fucked, he's in a civil lawsuit.

[641] No question about it.

[642] Like, that's ending up in court.

[643] Don't you think?

[644] You put it so much better than I do.

[645] I mean, yeah, I don't, I guess I never thought of it is that harsh.

[646] You see this house?

[647] That's where your mother's getting butt fuck.

[648] Your mother's taking it right up to yet.

[649] That's not Snoopy's house.

[650] That's your mother's butt fuck house.

[651] Yeah.

[652] When's the last time you had sex for money?

[653] He's getting, he's leaving handcuffs.

[654] There's a whole host of people.

[655] We could run through saying that sentences would just end terribly.

[656] Stay tuned for more armchair.

[657] expert, if you dare.

[658] By the way, I applaud it.

[659] I'm not saying to you, you're getting away with murder.

[660] I'm like, I'm very excited that you're utilizing everything about your being to live at the very maximum you can.

[661] Well, there have been a couple of people who, you know, on this tour that have complained, what he wrote in my book, but I'm not going to, I'm like, I like it.

[662] I mean, I like meeting the people and I like talking to them and I like, it's fun for me. It's probably how you keep it pleasurable.

[663] for you, which then makes the interaction actually genuine, because you've found a way to have fun doing it, right?

[664] Yeah.

[665] And then ultimately, that is a more genuine, wonderful interaction.

[666] Well, I find that the times that I don't like it is when somebody is a controlling person, and then they say, no, I want you to write in this book, keep laughing.

[667] I want you to write it to my son.

[668] And I want you to write to Ryan, keep laughing.

[669] And you can't, I can't tell you how many times that happens.

[670] And I say, I'm not going to write that in your book.

[671] Oh, boy.

[672] Because that's not something I would say.

[673] Right.

[674] Yeah, but I want you to write Keep Laughing.

[675] And I said, well, not going to.

[676] Okay, great.

[677] And I'm going to do this instead.

[678] And they're never happy.

[679] But what you do instead is so much better.

[680] I don't know why that really is getting me. Can you imagine?

[681] I'm always so jealous of that Larry the Cable guy because he has one saying.

[682] He says, get her done.

[683] And I have to imagine every single thing he's ever signed.

[684] It's just get her done.

[685] He can probably close his eyes and sign it without even being conscious of it.

[686] Well, yeah, I like to have a catchphrase like that.

[687] Yes, yeah.

[688] I was in a bookstore a couple weeks ago and Bruce Springsteen had come for his book.

[689] And they told me that he's the size of everyone he has his picture taken with.

[690] He's the height of everyone who he has his picture taken with.

[691] How does that work?

[692] He's got a little...

[693] Yeah, he gets shorter tall.

[694] I don't know.

[695] I don't know if he, I don't know if he, you know, stands on his toes or if he bends down.

[696] But they said it was amazing.

[697] All night long, he took pictures and people would say, look at the picture.

[698] And he was the same height as they were.

[699] Isn't that a superpower?

[700] It really, really is.

[701] I would love to challenge it.

[702] Like, I would like to get a center for an NBA team and bring them to the book sign and see, oh, geez, how's he going to handle this?

[703] There was a ladder coming out from behind the?

[704] I was just wondering, do you care if people like you?

[705] Like when all these people leave and you've, you know, you've been like quippy, do you care if they're like, if they don't like it?

[706] Do you care?

[707] I really do.

[708] You do care.

[709] I really do care.

[710] Because I guess I'm thinking like when the people are unhappy, I think, well, what happened at the last book signing you went to?

[711] What happened then?

[712] You know, did the person even look up?

[713] yeah did the person say how are you did you say how are you and they said i'm fine thank you thank you for asking and how did that feel you know when you walked away from the table that feel good to you so i'm trying to actually connect with people yeah and i guess it's like somebody saying i don't like you and and i know especially now there are a lot of people and they like to be combative with people on social media and they almost seem energized but i'm not if people walk out of the theater during a show, I think, oh, it's a doctor on call.

[714] And then if a bunch of people walk out, I think there was a school bus accident.

[715] I get 9 .30 on a Saturday night.

[716] And all those doctors had to leave.

[717] If I get a letter from somebody who said, you know, I read your book and I couldn't stand it, I'm bothered for days.

[718] Yeah.

[719] Really?

[720] Wow.

[721] Sometimes, like if you're on the radio, there's language you can't use.

[722] And so people just think you don't ever use it.

[723] And then they buy your book or they go to see you on stage and they hear you using that language.

[724] And I'm not one of those people like, I don't, I don't, that's fine if you have somebody who doesn't want to use any language, you know, in their act or whatever.

[725] Famously, Bill Cosby.

[726] It was very clean, clean routine.

[727] That's absolutely fine.

[728] but I wouldn't put him above Sarah Silverman.

[729] No. I mean, it's just laying.

[730] It doesn't mean anything to me. Yes.

[731] You seem to have a more peaceful acceptance of it than I do.

[732] I get infuriated by it when people, I've had, you know, my mother -in -law tell me there's too many fucks in the last movie I made.

[733] And I just think, it's a goddamn sound.

[734] It's literally a fucking sound that your tongue and teeth made.

[735] How could that possibly affect you?

[736] Right.

[737] It's no different than any of the other myriad of sounds we're making.

[738] just preposterous to me that people are, but I had a little tiny victory over her.

[739] I made her watch Chris Rock and she was telling me why swearing is lazy or something.

[740] And I made her, I said, well, I want you to watch how artful this is and how specific and how well thought out this is and hear it, you know.

[741] And she did conclude it was impactful and served a purpose and it wasn't laziness and all these things.

[742] Well, when I'm on the BBC, a radio show, on the BBC, and they have a meeting, they'll have meetings about certain words.

[743] Okay.

[744] And there have been times when they let me keep the word fuck in because they, they sit down and they think, well, for that same reason.

[745] Like it's structurally, it's important, or everything leads up to it.

[746] Sure.

[747] And then there's other time and they say, no, we're going to cut that.

[748] You don't need that.

[749] Right.

[750] And now you generally.

[751] And usually I don't care because I realize, gosh, you're right.

[752] Right.

[753] So you're generally in agreement with them.

[754] Sometimes, you know, it's an argument, but usually what it's an argument about is, you know, like with the BBC, you can say that somebody committed suicide, but you can't say how they did it, right?

[755] I guess they're afraid that the listeners are going to say, wait a minute.

[756] I never thought of that.

[757] I own a car.

[758] I have a foot to use the gas pedal.

[759] I have a chisel.

[760] Yeah.

[761] I have an oven at home.

[762] that is gas propelled.

[763] But I guess, yeah, they're worried that listeners are going to...

[764] That weirdly is a fact.

[765] This is something I learned as an anthropology major.

[766] We had to read this book about the contagious nature of suicides on this small Pacific Island where it became like the trendy thing to do.

[767] And they have tracked when news stories are pervasive with suicides.

[768] The suicide rate does go up.

[769] It is weirdly a contagious thing.

[770] Huh.

[771] Yeah, which is bizarre.

[772] and I don't understand the psychology of it, but that is a fact.

[773] Now, the plague of ticks, can I go back to that?

[774] Sure.

[775] Well, in general, can I just ask you this?

[776] How do you feel about praise?

[777] Does it make you uncomfortable, or do you enjoy it?

[778] Usually it makes me uncomfortable.

[779] Yeah.

[780] Can I guess that you want it a ton and then when you're receiving it, you hate it?

[781] Yeah.

[782] Yeah, that's probably it.

[783] That's how I feel.

[784] I want the whole world to love me, and then the second they start telling me they do, I get so uncomfortable.

[785] Well, someone had to work with me. And because at the end of a show, when people applaud, it's all I ever wanted.

[786] Sure.

[787] But then I would just, just kind of slink away.

[788] And someone said, you know, it wouldn't kill you to bow.

[789] Uh -huh.

[790] I do that, but I would never go back out for more.

[791] Right, right, right.

[792] Yeah, for me, it's very bizarre.

[793] I want it.

[794] Every step I take in my life is to get it.

[795] And then when I receive it, I feel fraudulent.

[796] I feel like I don't deserve it.

[797] Like somehow I've fooled these.

[798] people.

[799] I don't really deserve this.

[800] Well, it's even, it's even odder when they stand up, you know, because I know that feeling of being in an audience and everybody starts standing up and you don't really want to, but then you kind of have to.

[801] I hate it.

[802] I hate it.

[803] Makes me think of being in church.

[804] And the other thing I hate is the fucking pageantry of an encore.

[805] When you go see a concert, even if they didn't play my favorite song I want, I can't do it.

[806] I can't do the three times where you hold the lighter up and then they act like they're not.

[807] and then there's a crazy round of applause and then they come back out and then they leave again now like standard now for a concert it's like three of those cycles and I just find it so tedious when I went on my first book door in Germany I was with an actor named Harry Rovald who translated the book as well and I said the first night he would I would read in English he would read in German I said how long will the reading last and he said a bottle and he read until he finished an entire fifth of Irish whiskey.

[808] Really?

[809] And he'd been reading for like two and a half hours.

[810] And then somebody said, encore, and they called, and he read.

[811] He read another story that was 40 minutes long.

[812] You're kidding.

[813] And you never do that.

[814] With a fifth in them.

[815] Yeah.

[816] God bless.

[817] But I was at, I mean, every now and then you do a show and then somebody says, will you read that story?

[818] You know, at the Q &A, we read that?

[819] And I always say, oh, God, no. Like, I'm finished.

[820] like the reading part is finished we're in the home stretch you're going to because all anybody's so gracious about it well no all anybody wants to do is go home and I think if you're a performer and you forget that yeah that that's a real danger you are being gracious yeah well what I always tell my wife when we go places is that there's nothing on the planet I would enjoy for more than an hour and 40 minute there's nothing you know I want out at a certain point.

[821] I need to reevaluate.

[822] Except, weird exception.

[823] Okay.

[824] Kabuki.

[825] Kabuki.

[826] Kabuki theater?

[827] Kabuki theater.

[828] Really?

[829] With the, with the very heavy makeup and everything I'm thinking?

[830] And I went and someone said, well, it's six hours.

[831] Oh my.

[832] And I thought, well, there's no way.

[833] I mean, might go for a little while and then leave.

[834] Sure.

[835] Ab's completely compelling.

[836] Really?

[837] Completely.

[838] Okay, maybe it was four hours.

[839] Okay.

[840] That's four hours.

[841] But it was two nights.

[842] So you'd go back the second night.

[843] Oh, wow.

[844] But we weren't going to be there the second night.

[845] But anyway, the four hours.

[846] It blew by.

[847] Yeah.

[848] And you saw this was in Japan.

[849] In Tokyo.

[850] In Tokyo.

[851] I, a story not like that one is we got roped into checking out a cricket game in Australia on a trip.

[852] And when these motherfuckers sat down to drink tea in the middle of the game on the field, I was like, you've got to be kidding me. We're supposed to sit here and watch these people relax and drink tea, I could not wrap my head around it.

[853] It felt aggressively, like it felt like an assault to watch these guys do this.

[854] And come to find out, we were only observing day two of a six -day game, six -day game.

[855] Someone will have to explain that to me at some point.

[856] Yeah, no, even if they were naked.

[857] Yes.

[858] You know, and you would tire, you would tire.

[859] Yes, and using the bathroom on the field.

[860] Like, it would, there would be nothing that could hold my attention for that long.

[861] What about Kabuki is so compelling?

[862] Did they speak?

[863] It was so, it's, they wail.

[864] Oh.

[865] And, and it was so odd and just beautiful.

[866] And the way that they moved, it was almost like they were, they moved like, like marionettes.

[867] I'd never seen anybody walk like that in their little jerky movements.

[868] and then it was so over the top but then you would feel like weeping and it was so fraught with emotion and the music was just this plunky they play this I think it's called the shamison is that what it's called it's like a two strained instrument that's just plunky and mournful puppetry did it resemble a drug experience where like at first it was like what on earth is this and then you just found yourself and embraced or fell right into it right right into it that's kind of a cool experience is immersive the whole thing yeah yeah yeah uh do you like drugs i loved drugs i mean i had to stop taking drugs are you sober oh yeah oh you are almost 20 years oh i had no idea somebody came away while ago and brought me some pot cookies and I said gosh I said I wish you hadn't told me I said yeah I wish because if someone slipped it to me I then it wouldn't be my fault and I would get to enjoy it but if I were to knowingly take it tomorrow is day one yeah and I just went through too much to have tomorrow be day one so I mean a couple times you know how it is you take a sip and it's like oh that's not my water glass that's here, some, you know, and then I wish you would realize it like nine sips later, right?

[869] That's what I always wish.

[870] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[871] I got like accidentally got a Jack and Coke in Wyoming once.

[872] And I was with a friend who's also sober.

[873] And he, he ended up with a Jack Ginger.

[874] Like, we just ended up with these two cocktails.

[875] And, uh, and he's like, oh my God, mine's a, mine's a Jack Jr. And then I took a big sale.

[876] Oh, mine's a Jack and Coke.

[877] And he actually said, taste mine.

[878] I was like, well, hold on.

[879] I don't think.

[880] We can now taste each other's.

[881] But I try to say for it when it is it.

[882] Do take a sip by accident.

[883] And I'll say to, you know, Hugh, my boyfriend is usually, I don't know, he only seems to be there.

[884] I was like, are you drunk I am?

[885] One sip of somebody's way.

[886] Is he sober?

[887] No. But he doesn't need to be.

[888] You know, he can drink or not drink.

[889] He has no. you didn't have a problem with it.

[890] Do you like, did you ever go to the AA or anything?

[891] I did when I very first quit and I was in Paris.

[892] Uh -huh.

[893] But the meetings that I went to in Paris, it was mainly, it was a lot of people who were lonely.

[894] And that might be the case everywhere.

[895] Yeah, yeah, who would.

[896] I remember, and I know you're not supposed to talk about what you hear in a. Well, as long as you don't say who said it.

[897] But this guy said, I used to come home from work and drink an airplane bottle of vodka every night.

[898] Come on.

[899] And if you were a mouse, that would be a real, that would be a problem, right?

[900] Yeah, a hummingbird.

[901] A hummingbird would be Bukowski on that diet.

[902] And I just, I went to some meetings and I just thought, I don't, I don't think I can do this.

[903] And so, you know, there are a lot of people who say, well, if you didn't, then you're just a dry drunk and blah, blah, blah.

[904] But I feel like the important thing for me is to not drink.

[905] And however I go about it.

[906] And if you don't like that way, I really don't care.

[907] Sure.

[908] And can I just tell you that I could give a flying fuck how somebody quits?

[909] I personally get a ton out of the program, but I don't think that's for everyone.

[910] I could care less.

[911] And then when people go out and they relapse, I don't care all that much about that either.

[912] Like, I'm not, it's not a big deal to me. But was it, was it, suffice to say, was it hard to quit?

[913] Yeah.

[914] What drugs did you like?

[915] I was meth Okay, great I was like the first meth addict Like in the 1970s And what saved me was my dealer moved to Florida And then there was And then I knew her brother sold it So I contacted her brother Who said, don't you ever Call me or contact me ever And then I was like Diana Ross In Lady Sings of Blues You know, I was just on the floor for days And just agony were you smoking it or snorting it snorting it and then she moved back from florida but i was able to say like wow i remember what that was like getting on i'm never going through that again so i never took the meth again but you know like i got high like every night like years after i mean years after i was enjoying it you know oh sure i mean for it was uh before i moved i moved to new york city where you could just dial a number and then somebody would deliver pot to your house.

[916] But before that, you know, if you wanted to get high, that meant going to these people's house and you didn't really like them, but you know they're getting high all the time and so you go over and you act like you're just dropping by and then you're, they haven't offered any yet.

[917] Oh, one of the most shameful elements of addiction is like the people you were willing to tolerate just to be high.

[918] Like that's when I think back, that's probably my biggest, like, oh my God, what a fraud.

[919] I was like, I feel like I like I like these people.

[920] And then you go over to their house and you'd say, is that a bong?

[921] Or a vase.

[922] Oh, my God, it's a bomb, really?

[923] Yeah, yeah.

[924] Oh, cool mirror on the counter.

[925] And I would take acid and, you know, mushrooms and things like that.

[926] But, you know, it wasn't like you'd take those every day.

[927] It was just whenever it came along.

[928] Cocaine, I couldn't really afford.

[929] And I didn't like how sad it made me afterwards.

[930] Yeah, it's a rough.

[931] Yeah.

[932] It is rough.

[933] But if you quit 20 years ago, you had had some success while still using.

[934] Yeah.

[935] Right?

[936] So obviously your budget kind of would have allotted for some more.

[937] Somebody came last night and they had me sign.

[938] One of the things they had me sign, it was a GQ fashion shoot called Dry Wits, right?

[939] And I remember it was in my first book came out.

[940] I had to go and do this.

[941] Barrel fever.

[942] And I looked at the picture and I had to be, we had to wear rain gear, right?

[943] People who had to wear rain gear.

[944] Got drunk and then got stoned and was drunk.

[945] drinking and smoking until 5 o 'clock in the morning.

[946] And then at 7 .30, I went from my GQ fashion.

[947] And I just, that all came back when the person showed me the picture.

[948] And I thought, who does that?

[949] Who does, who would do that?

[950] I mean, anybody else would say, oh, my God, is GQ?

[951] I got to be a good night's sleep.

[952] I better go to sleep.

[953] Maybe lose a couple pounds before the shoe.

[954] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[955] Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

[956] Oh, yeah.

[957] Well, I was, you know, for 20 years, all I want to do is get on TV.

[958] And I had dreams of, you know, being on these talk shows.

[959] It was like the thing I couldn't wait to do.

[960] And I get invited on to Conan O 'Brien.

[961] And then the night before, yeah, I end up with an eight ball.

[962] And then I end up with security rattling me awake in my bed because my publicist has got them to force the hotel room door open.

[963] And then I have to be on the stage in 20 minutes.

[964] And I've peed the bed and I don't know who I'm next to.

[965] And I show up.

[966] it's like time to be on TV and you think, oh my goodness, you did all this stuff to get here.

[967] And at the finish line, you went out the night before and got an eight ball of Coke.

[968] Yeah.

[969] You know?

[970] And then I was asked to not be on the show for a long time after that performance.

[971] So are you able to write high or you would get sober to write?

[972] No, I wrote drunk, but I never wrote high.

[973] I would just get drunk and I would write and then I would read over, get high and read over what I'd written.

[974] And I thought it made me such.

[975] a keen editor.

[976] Sure, sure.

[977] Attention to detail on math.

[978] But I couldn't, and I had it in my head that I could only write when I was drinking.

[979] Did you like Vukowski growing up?

[980] I never read anything by.

[981] I didn't like people who liked them.

[982] I could see that.

[983] The people who I knew who said, oh my God, you got to read this guy.

[984] I don't know.

[985] I wasn't sure about their taste.

[986] Sure.

[987] but the so when I quit it was just you know I sat down at my desk the same time but I tried drinking juice and I thought this isn't going to work at all so I switched to coffee well I'd switch the time that I wrote and I thought okay maybe that will help were you previously writing in the evening yeah I was writing the evening but then what happened is then I moved to New York City and then all of a sudden I would have these assignments, you know, like assignments, I mean, to participate in a reading, right?

[988] Uh -huh, yeah.

[989] Then I thought, well, gosh, the reading is tonight and the story is, I got to work on the story all day before the reading tonight.

[990] And then I would be drinking in the morning and I would be going out.

[991] You know, I just remember going out in New York City and it was like noon and I'm drunk.

[992] Everybody around me isn't.

[993] it's a unique feeling isn't it yeah my thing was always driving home from this person's house on san bassente and in santa monica and the sun would be up and it'd be saturday morning and i was on my way back to my apartment and i'd see all these people jogging and i'd be like oh my god look how they're starting their saturday and look what i have ahead of me like i neither need to stay high all the way again until tonight or i got to figure out how to come down which is going to be almost impossible and it was just brutal seeing those healthy people getting a great start to their Saturday.

[994] It feels good, though, to be free, you know?

[995] It just feels good.

[996] The same way is I quit smoking and I...

[997] Yeah, how long ago did you quit smoking?

[998] A little over 10 years.

[999] Mm -hmm.

[1000] A little over 10 years would be 11.

[1001] When I see people outside the airport or whatnot, I just, I don't condemn them.

[1002] Sure, sure.

[1003] Whatever they want to do.

[1004] But I feel so free that I'm not.

[1005] dependent on that one I have even more gratitude for than the drinking and drugs when I see people drinking at a bar I don't go oh fuck thank God that's not me that looks fun you know I wish I could do it in manner they seem to be doing it but yeah when I walk outside the airport I'm like oh my God thank God I'm not fucking doing that and I think God I wasn't cranky for the last five hours on the flight because I couldn't do it you know you know like they would say your flight's going to be delayed by 20 minutes that's not enough time to leave the airport and have a cigarette and come back.

[1006] Right, through security and everything.

[1007] And so then after 20 minutes, they say, oh, it's going to be another half hour.

[1008] Then it'd be like, fuck you.

[1009] I could have laughed.

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] Banged back two bots and been in a great mood.

[1012] You know what I always think is funny, though?

[1013] And this happened a number of times.

[1014] You're at the airport and you go outside to have a cigarette.

[1015] And somebody comes and says, we had a connection and our flight got delayed.

[1016] And we're just trying to get some money.

[1017] together to get some lunch.

[1018] You know, when people go to the airport to beg for money and you think, like, you're not passing.

[1019] You know, you're not passing as a regular traveler.

[1020] Nobody in the airport would ever ask you for spare chains.

[1021] Yeah, zero dollars in their pants.

[1022] A woman did that one time.

[1023] She said, I came to pick up my daughter, and now they want me to pay for parking.

[1024] Do you have $5 for the parking?

[1025] And I thought, you would, you would call somebody and say, you would call a friend and say, oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed.

[1026] I'm at the airport.

[1027] And I have my credit card or anything.

[1028] Can you bring me $5?

[1029] You would do that before.

[1030] You'd ask a stranger for money.

[1031] You're right.

[1032] It's such a humiliating thing to do.

[1033] You're not going to do it.

[1034] But I still, I really would love for you to read Bukowski because he's much funnier than you may be probably no. And he wrote his whole career was drunk at night.

[1035] all of his writing was drunk at night.

[1036] I think you might kind of identify with it a little bit.

[1037] Did you, there was, what's her name, Nan Robertson?

[1038] She wrote for the New York Times, and she wrote a book years and years ago about her life and her drinking.

[1039] And she lost a couple fingers, I think, because she passed out in the snow.

[1040] Okay.

[1041] And they had to take her fingers off.

[1042] A little frostbite.

[1043] But she was somebody who, you know, had a real serious job.

[1044] She was a journalist in the New York Times.

[1045] and but then secretly she had this whole drunk life.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Getting sober, I think it was called.

[1048] Maybe it was called that.

[1049] Nan Robertson.

[1050] It was really good because it was like one of those first books you read about somebody.

[1051] Uh -huh.

[1052] Like what year do you think that was written?

[1053] But see, I always felt maybe like the 1970s or early 1980s.

[1054] Oh, okay, so early.

[1055] I always felt like I don't have like a, you know.

[1056] A great drunk -a -law?

[1057] Yeah, I think.

[1058] getting drunk and then smoking pot and showing up late.

[1059] I mean, you know, for your GQ photoshoot, that's nowhere near as good as your Conan story.

[1060] So I've always kind of felt that way.

[1061] Like my experience, because I was always disciplined.

[1062] I now feel bad, though.

[1063] I think what I just heard, though, is that I tried to trump your story.

[1064] And now I'm feeling guilty.

[1065] No, no, no. That's my insecurity.

[1066] It's not your need to, I'll shine your, okay, okay.

[1067] Could be both.

[1068] No, but I always felt like my.

[1069] Likely both.

[1070] I always felt that like my drinking was never that dramatic.

[1071] It just seemed more like household variety, you know.

[1072] Yeah, but there is an inherent, an intrinsic story to it, right?

[1073] It had a beginning, middle, and an end.

[1074] So just right on a silver platter, you do have that, right?

[1075] There's when you, it started appealing to you and where it took you.

[1076] and how you ultimately, who do you like to read?

[1077] I mean, one of the people that I loved early on that I still could read again over and over and I do read again is Flannery O 'Connor as somebody who was different, you know, she was a really strong Catholic.

[1078] And so I think a lot of times people are looking for that in her work, but I just thought she was terribly, terribly funny.

[1079] just such a good nuts and bolts writer and she's somebody and her character she's kind of writing the same story over and over again but I don't mind Plainer O 'Connor I mean if they've discovered something that she had done that was a screenplay or something like that I mean it's still be the first in line to get it and read it you know what changes I mean the people that you you know when people say what's your favorite it, you know, that can tend to change.

[1080] But Tobias Wolf is not a person.

[1081] You just got me so excited because you know what I was going to tell you is that, oh my God, I did, I scare everyone in the room.

[1082] So loud and scary.

[1083] I'm so sorry.

[1084] As you were going to come here today, I fantasized about maybe what writers we both liked.

[1085] I only wrote down three names.

[1086] Oh, wow.

[1087] Tobias Wolf.

[1088] Raymond Carver, I felt like we might both like.

[1089] Raymond Carver, as I just had to do an interview with, I think it was called three books.

[1090] It was a podcast or an interview.

[1091] Uh -huh.

[1092] But Raymond Carver is a person who I remember finding, We Please Be Quiet, Please, at the library, and just how it changed everything from me. Oh, my God, I'm so delighted to hear that.

[1093] One of the reasons he made writing seem so possible because his sentences were very simple, and he might, and they were not rhythmic at all.

[1094] Mm -hmm.

[1095] He might have four sentences in a row that started with the word he.

[1096] Uh -huh.

[1097] He knocked on the door.

[1098] he waited he knocked again he came in and i thought i can do that yeah and i think he got a lot of people writing yeah you know and then you start and you think oh right you need a story well but he still opened the door i think for a lot of people absolutely i remember reading him in college and i was writing a ton and wanted to be a writer and exactly what you're saying i just was like how is it that this story about a vacuum salesman coming into this person's house and then just having this weird interaction feels a thousand percent real like I feel like I've witnessed this in real life it's that he just something was so accurate about the tone of what was happening between humans and I was like oh you can kind of forget the the huge architecture of writing and if you can really just lock on to that thing like remember clearly what those weird internal thoughts are it's almost like Catcher in the Rye where it's like Holden Caulfield's describing sitting on the bed and you go like, oh, I've sat on a bed and felt that uncomfortable while talking to someone and all I can think about is how uncomfortable I am while this person's talking.

[1099] I should be paying attention.

[1100] Like just those little things that I discovered from other writers where I was like, oh, wow, that's where the whole world of writing is, is that.

[1101] Well, then like he led me to Joy Williams.

[1102] who was another person who wrote very simply.

[1103] But then there was a, there was more, I don't know, there was more depth and more mystery, I think, to the things that she was writing.

[1104] I mean, I didn't drop Raymond Carver.

[1105] I still, you know, I still liked him.

[1106] Yeah.

[1107] But then a number of those, I guess they were called dirty realists.

[1108] Oh, really?

[1109] They have a genre.

[1110] Yeah.

[1111] Mm. And, but it was their simplicity that I found, inspiring to me personally that I and that led me to think that I could maybe do what they were doing well the compliment I wanted to give you that you won't enjoy receiving but I will do it anyways is why I was so attracted to your right like I'm a super fan of your writing and the thing that I liked the most about it was you somehow have the perfect balance between witty and clever and interesting and economy.

[1112] Like, I do think it's still very approachable and simple, yet there's just the right amount of, ooh, I haven't read that word on a page in a book in a long time, or I haven't heard that phrase.

[1113] And it's as if, to me, I think of your writing as if, like, if Hemingway had been a humorist almost.

[1114] Like, there's something about it that is very simple, but yet very powerful.

[1115] And I just, the fact that I wrote three names down and two of them really like and Bukowski was the third.

[1116] I feel like that's got to sway you a little bit to try to pick up like prettiest woman in town.

[1117] I'll give it to try.

[1118] I haven't tried in years.

[1119] I'm going to come with you tonight.

[1120] I'm going to come over to wherever you're staying in town.

[1121] I mean, we'll just go through.

[1122] I'll bring over a variety of different books.

[1123] And I'll stare at you while you read it and I'll try to gauge from the look on your face.

[1124] How much you're enjoying it.

[1125] Yeah, wasn't it?

[1126] We would both love it because it would be so.

[1127] uncomfortable, right?

[1128] It's so memorable for both of us.

[1129] But I have a, like, a 12 -page attention span.

[1130] Okay.

[1131] So if I'm in front of an audience, if I'm writing something, I don't want it to be too long to read.

[1132] Oh, right, because you're, oh, that's interesting.

[1133] There's no use to me. I can't read it in front of an audience.

[1134] So I want it to be 12 pages or under.

[1135] So that has a a lot to do with the economy.

[1136] Okay.

[1137] I'm thinking, okay, the story, it's great and everything, but it, I don't mean that it's great and everything.

[1138] You're allowed to say that?

[1139] It feels good to me. I would be very upset if you didn't think you were great.

[1140] It feels good to me, but it's 14 pages long.

[1141] Let's get it down to 12 pages.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] And you can always lose two pages.

[1144] You know, I feel bad for novelists, right?

[1145] So let's say if I wrote a novel, I'm not going to.

[1146] read from a novel for an hour in front of an audience because if you're not into it you're just stuck there yeah so i'd rather read four or five things over the course of an hour so that way if you're not into something something else will come along in a moment yeah yeah well and so in thinking about this this pretty beautiful balance you have um how long will you fret on a certain sentence.

[1147] Is it something that like when you're writing a sentence, I have to imagine there's periods of just great flow.

[1148] And then I have to imagine some of it is like crafting a text message to somebody you want to impress.

[1149] Do you, will you sit there with a sentence for a good while and go, hmm.

[1150] I'll think, okay, this didn't get a laugh.

[1151] Like there's something I'm working on right now.

[1152] And for some reason, I think it is the, I think it is terribly funny.

[1153] And it's a true story.

[1154] And it's a guy, and he dug his eyeballs out with a teaspoon.

[1155] It's a true story.

[1156] Yeah.

[1157] He ate one.

[1158] But he couldn't find the other.

[1159] Of course.

[1160] That's inherently hysterical.

[1161] And to me, that is so funny.

[1162] And it doesn't get the laughs that I think it deserves.

[1163] And so I think, okay, I have to rewrite it.

[1164] Uh -huh.

[1165] in such a way.

[1166] Because maybe if I rephrase it, right?

[1167] Yeah.

[1168] It makes me think of the Shell Silverstein picture with the guy who can't find his head.

[1169] He's sitting on his head.

[1170] Can you remember that image in your head?

[1171] No. He like can't find it anywhere.

[1172] And he decides to just sit down on this rock.

[1173] It's his head.

[1174] If you took somebody's eyeballs out with a spoon, if you, you sat somebody down and took their eyeballs out with the spoon, then that's different, right?

[1175] Because then, but if you did it to yourself.

[1176] Yeah, yeah.

[1177] There's no, it's a victimless crime.

[1178] Then, so that's a situation.

[1179] That's an example of something that I'm thinking, okay, well, I just have to go back and try to get this sentence the right way.

[1180] But I really only one writing teacher.

[1181] And he told me that if you do, if you sit down, and you come up with the sentence and you think, wow, look at that sentence.

[1182] Look at how perfect that sentence.

[1183] You should cut it.

[1184] Oh.

[1185] And I wind up doing that all the time.

[1186] It's precious and it's probably not, it's not as good as you think it is.

[1187] Well, there's a story, there's this one sentence in my book that I'm not sure about.

[1188] And my editor at the New Yorker said, maybe cut this out.

[1189] And I knew I was breaking my roots.

[1190] rule when I said, no, I'd like to keep it.

[1191] And then people quote it back to me a lot from the book.

[1192] And then every time they do, I cringe a little.

[1193] Oh, really?

[1194] So I think, gosh, she was probably she was probably right.

[1195] What I was talking about, it was a line, one of my sisters committed suicide.

[1196] And so I was having a conversation with my father and I said, why do you think she did it?

[1197] And he said, I don't think it had anything to do with us.

[1198] And I thought, well, how could it not?

[1199] And doesn't the blood of every suicide splash back on our faces?

[1200] And that was the line.

[1201] And what I meant was, aren't we all kind of complicit?

[1202] Sure.

[1203] And every suicide didn't.

[1204] Weren't we all kind of sitting around watching it happen?

[1205] Uh -huh.

[1206] Maybe in slow motion, but weren't we all doing that?

[1207] Yeah.

[1208] And it was a sentence that, I don't know, I feel like was a little bit precious to me. I didn't know how else to say it.

[1209] Well, even you saying it, even you saying it, knowing your writing, I don't know that reference.

[1210] But even you saying it, it sounds a little more theatrical than what I think of you as a writer.

[1211] So that's really interesting.

[1212] Okay, so the very last thing I want to ask you is I think we just saw a really subtle indicator that's time to go.

[1213] This is another thing I feel like I've maybe experienced that.

[1214] I'm curious what your feeling on it is, which is I'm a public figure.

[1215] My family's not a public figure.

[1216] You know, my mom, my brother and my sister.

[1217] And I do this podcast.

[1218] So I divulge a ton of stuff.

[1219] And I also write things.

[1220] And I do that.

[1221] And I'll be on talk shows and I'll tell a funny family story.

[1222] And then on occasion there's been some blowback from that.

[1223] and um is it hard to to juggle like your you're entitled to tell your story as a as a writer's entitled to tell their story and then there are other characters in your story and is that has that been hard has there been blowback because so many of your stories involve your your boyfriend or your family members how do you navigate that do you say fuck and i'm going for it or no i mean i don't like my brother there was some stuff my brother used to love to be written about, you know.

[1224] Uh -huh.

[1225] And he has a floor -sanding business, so he got a lot of work off of, you know, he got a lot of work off of that.

[1226] Sure.

[1227] But then he's kind of undergoing some changes lately.

[1228] And he said, I don't want you to mention this and this.

[1229] Uh -huh.

[1230] And it's kind of a drag because they got big laughs.

[1231] But then I thought, well, I don't want to, that's what an asshole would do.

[1232] An asshole would say, I don't care what you think.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] And also, you can get plenty of other laughs.

[1235] That's another.

[1236] Right.

[1237] You have a lot of stuff you can get laughs at probably.

[1238] So I don't want to, I don't want to expose anybody or I don't want to, you know, one thing you can't count on, you know, the amount of people who will come up to you though and then say, I know you, I know all about you.

[1239] And it's like, what do you really know?

[1240] I was at a dinner party with my older sister.

[1241] I know all about you.

[1242] You know she has a parrot.

[1243] You know, she has a couple of dogs.

[1244] I mean, what do you really think that you know about her?

[1245] Is this the one in Calypso, though, that I found out?

[1246] I'm assuming she's on Ambien when she ate the turkey and then she ate the turtle food.

[1247] But Gretchen doesn't care of people.

[1248] I mean, that's a thing.

[1249] My sister Gretchen, she took some, she was on this medication.

[1250] She got up in the middle of night and she ate these nutritional bars for her turtle.

[1251] And they're made out of dry, they're made out of dead flies.

[1252] pressed together the way Deerflame logs are.

[1253] And then she ate all the petals off her poinsettia.

[1254] Which is, I was always told as poisonous poinsettias.

[1255] Like kids aren't.

[1256] It's not.

[1257] No, it's like a wife's tail.

[1258] But you even messed the best setup is if she came out in the kitchen and she saw that there was jam out, right?

[1259] Like first she saw, oh, shit, I got into some jam.

[1260] And then she thought, what did I spread it on?

[1261] Oh, oh, I put it on the painter turtle food.

[1262] But Gretchen doesn't, Gretchen knows that's fun.

[1263] Well, it sounds like you have the perfect family for doing what you're doing.

[1264] They seem pretty.

[1265] They, well, again, it would be different.

[1266] If Gretchen was a writer, Gretchen might say, you know what, I'm already.

[1267] That's my story.

[1268] That's, yeah.

[1269] And I'm using that already.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] And there are a lot of Gretchen stories that, you know, Gretchen has a job.

[1272] Uh -huh.

[1273] And she needs to keep her job.

[1274] Right.

[1275] So you know some stories that may be even funnier, but would be detrimental.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] And so I don't want to, I don't want to.

[1278] And even when somebody's dead, I mean, there were things that my sister Tiffany told me that really would have, you know, clarified a lot.

[1279] And it would have, it would have made her, given people a richer understanding of her and what it was like to deal with her.

[1280] But I, was she bipolar or something?

[1281] Does she have an actual medical?

[1282] Yeah, she had a name.

[1283] Okay.

[1284] There was a name for what she was.

[1285] Right.

[1286] But, you know, there were certain things if your friend told you that they were, you know, if your friend came to you and said, oh, my God, this guy called last night.

[1287] And so I wound up doing this and this, you'd be completely entertained.

[1288] But if it's your sister telling you, you know, you just, you can't bear it.

[1289] You know, you don't want to think of your sister.

[1290] And you fucked in Snoopy's doghouse.

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] So, but there are things.

[1293] I mean, she wouldn't want people knowing.

[1294] And so do you have to sometimes call and ask like, yeah, that's what I was going to.

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] Do you go like, oh, man, I really want to tell this or that.

[1297] My sister Lisa, I read her this story recently that I'm, that New Yorker story that disclosed.

[1298] So I read that to her.

[1299] She had no problem with them.

[1300] The New Yorker said, can you kind of get into it sooner?

[1301] Can you, can we condense those first three paragraphs?

[1302] So I had to have that next paragraph make sense.

[1303] So I said, I'll just change it to this.

[1304] And Lisa said, I don't want people knowing that.

[1305] And she was fine with people knowing that she goes to Starbucks in her underpants.

[1306] Right.

[1307] I mean, in her pajamas.

[1308] Okay.

[1309] And that she peed in her pajamas at Starbucks.

[1310] She was fine with the world knowing that.

[1311] Sure.

[1312] But then it was almost something like, you know, I laid my hairbrush on the counter.

[1313] Yeah, yeah.

[1314] She's like, no, I don't want people.

[1315] Yeah.

[1316] I don't want people knowing that.

[1317] So I'm not going to try to argue her out of it.

[1318] Yeah.

[1319] So I just say, okay, because I don't want to, I don't want to embarrass people.

[1320] And I don't want to.

[1321] And we're also unpredictable.

[1322] It's kind of what I was saying at the beginning is I'm a huge overshare.

[1323] I'll tell stories about shitting my pants and stuff.

[1324] And then you just happen to tell.

[1325] I love shitting in your pants.

[1326] I love it.

[1327] Oh, you love them?

[1328] Oh, my God, I love them.

[1329] We should have done two hours on it because I've shit my pants a couple dozen times in adulthood.

[1330] Really?

[1331] Yes, absolutely.

[1332] Can I tell you one quick one before you go?

[1333] So I moved into the first house I ever bought.

[1334] It was about 12 years ago.

[1335] We still live in this house.

[1336] And when I got the house, it came with an extra fridge in the like pool room.

[1337] And I was so excited because where I grew up, if you had a second fridge, you were rich.

[1338] Like that was the sign that you were fucking loaded.

[1339] And I was like, I'm rich.

[1340] Look at this.

[1341] I got extra fridge.

[1342] So I went to Costco.

[1343] I got all these drinks.

[1344] I'm going to stock this extra fridge up.

[1345] And I get all these things I've never drank in my life.

[1346] Well, I start drinking these leaders of pellet.

[1347] Pellegrino, right?

[1348] Every night, it's like my cocktail hour because I'm sober and I'm loving Pellegrino.

[1349] Well, I shit my pants in pretty rapid succession over the course of like three months.

[1350] The worst one being the third time, I was building a wall in my backyard.

[1351] I went to Home Depot.

[1352] I'm bending over to get this tongue and groove redwood.

[1353] And right as I lift it, I'm like, oh, I have a little fart.

[1354] This shouldn't be bad.

[1355] I'm going to let this out.

[1356] And then I like fully, a full evacuation.

[1357] as I have arms full of lumber in a very crowded Home Depot.

[1358] And I'm also semi -recognizable.

[1359] You know, some people know me. And so now I'm like, I have all these conflicting issues.

[1360] Like, do I set the wood down?

[1361] Do I, I don't know what the fuck to do in the, in the, in the, in the lumber department is on the opposite side of Home Depot from the bathroom.

[1362] So I'm immediately like, oh, get rid of this way.

[1363] I just throw the wood down.

[1364] And I start this super awkward walk, uh, to the, the bathroom and I'm walking by all these people and I'm thinking they're like, oh my God, this store is so big.

[1365] I didn't know it was this big.

[1366] I get inside the bathroom and I like have to take my pants off and I have boxers on and they're gone.

[1367] It's a wrap on the boxers.

[1368] And then I think I got to throw the, oh my God, there's a trash can in the stall at Home Depot, which I never had noticed.

[1369] The trash can's generally next to the sink.

[1370] And then I started thinking, oh, there's so many people shitting their pants at Home Depot maybe because the guys that are in the front they're eating this weird truck food whatever that's neither here nor there point is it was such a bottom out moment for me about shitting my pants I'm like oh my god I've done this three times in the last three months I have IBS I have I clearly I have IBS so I go online research an IBS diet I am that week I start an IBS diet week after that my friend Ethan comes over I'm showing them the new house walking to hey here's the pool room oh I got all these drinks.

[1371] I go, hey, do you want a Pellegrino?

[1372] And he goes, oh, man, no, I can't drink Pellegrino.

[1373] I shit my pants when I drink Pellegrino.

[1374] And I go, oh my God, that's what's changed.

[1375] For the last four months, I've been guzzling Pellegrino.

[1376] I don't have IBS.

[1377] Really?

[1378] I too, like Ethan, shit my pants if I drink too much Pellegrino.

[1379] So I stopped drinking the Pellegrino.

[1380] By the way, this is not a lack of an endorsement for Pellegrino.

[1381] I still love it.

[1382] Goodbye Pellegrino as a sponsor.

[1383] But I quit drinking Pellegrino and then I didn't ship my pants for a very long time.

[1384] after that.

[1385] Did you enjoy that?

[1386] Did you enjoy that?

[1387] I didn't ship my pants ever after that.

[1388] No, no, not ever.

[1389] But back to a manageable like once every 18 months situation.

[1390] And my wife is very, she's very, very curious about why men seem, what we found in talking about this is that men tend to shit their pants and women don't, but women tend to pee their pants.

[1391] It's all very interesting.

[1392] And Kristen's theory is that men are just naturally more of risk takers.

[1393] Like, they're just naturally because of the testosterone.

[1394] Maybe they would think, well, I'll fart in the Home Depot where a woman would be like, I'm not going to.

[1395] I'm not going to risk it.

[1396] Yeah.

[1397] Yeah, I think it's that.

[1398] But I think there might be a biological component that no one's really cracked yet.

[1399] It's a hard probably study to fund.

[1400] If you're like, got your hand out to the donors, the MacArthur Foundation.

[1401] We've got to figure out my men are shitting their pants.

[1402] so frequently.

[1403] Well, David, it's been a complete pleasure.

[1404] And I would be in big, big trouble if I didn't tell you that my wife, she's head over heels in love with you.

[1405] You're her favorite writer.

[1406] And she really wants to be good friends with you.

[1407] David Sedaris, thank you for coming to the armature expert.

[1408] And now begins my favorite part of the show.

[1409] Fact check with Monica Fatman.

[1410] Now I know what love in you cause.

[1411] Now we're up to talk in divorce And we won't even married This is you, Monica On my own, this isn't how That wasn't me?

[1412] Yeah, you do the duet part I don't know what you're singing On my own Is it Patty LaBelle and Michael McDonald?

[1413] Oh, I don't know that's all I always think of you as my Patty LaBelle Don't you always think of me as your Michael McDonald?

[1414] No, because I don't know.

[1415] that song.

[1416] You probably don't know Michael McDonald either, do you?

[1417] I don't think I do.

[1418] Taking it to the streets.

[1419] You know that one?

[1420] Sounds more familiar.

[1421] You don't know me, but I'm your brother.

[1422] No, I don't know.

[1423] You don't know that song?

[1424] Do I?

[1425] He was in the Doobie brothers.

[1426] He sang with Christopher Cross.

[1427] Well, that's relevant to this fact check.

[1428] Oh, fantastic.

[1429] Did you do that on accident?

[1430] A total accident.

[1431] Why?

[1432] What happened?

[1433] Because we talk about Christopher Cross and I have a few things to say.

[1434] Great.

[1435] So I was like, oh, that was a misfire.

[1436] I wanted to bring you in with a song that included fact check.

[1437] Right.

[1438] I couldn't get there.

[1439] I also wish that had happened.

[1440] Yeah.

[1441] So, but somehow it magically got to Christopher Cross.

[1442] Still worked out.

[1443] But first, you said authoritative.

[1444] And then you said, I know that's not a word.

[1445] Okay.

[1446] But it's authoritative.

[1447] Okay.

[1448] That sounds much more realer.

[1449] You know, we make a book list on the website.

[1450] and we've just started now a documentary list.

[1451] Mm -hmm.

[1452] It might be time to do a mispronounced word list.

[1453] I would never.

[1454] You wouldn't want to publicly humiliate me?

[1455] I could weather that storm.

[1456] I can handle it.

[1457] People can make that on their own if they want to, but I'm not going to be a part of it.

[1458] Okay.

[1459] All right.

[1460] You won't be a party to it.

[1461] Yeah.

[1462] Christopher Cross, musician, American singer -songwriter from Tejas.

[1463] Oh, what was that, New Mexico?

[1464] Texas.

[1465] Oh, Texas.

[1466] He won five Grammy Awards for his debut album, singles, Sailing.

[1467] Sailing.

[1468] That's the one you were talking about.

[1469] Takes me a way to where I'm going to you.

[1470] But did you learn anything about him not being pictured on his album?

[1471] I did.

[1472] So he is, he's on a Christopher Cross Christmas album.

[1473] Oh, God, they threw him a bone.

[1474] Come on, guys.

[1475] And then when I Googled, there was a couple other pictures of album covers that he was on.

[1476] But then when I went on iTunes to really look, you know, I double checked because I'm a good student.

[1477] Yeah.

[1478] And I didn't want to get in trouble.

[1479] So I checked and there was not any with the space besides a Christopher Cross Christmas.

[1480] A Christmas album.

[1481] I need to get that, by the way, because I'm a big crisscross fan.

[1482] I'm seeing him this Friday in concert.

[1483] You are?

[1484] Yes, with Rosenbaum.

[1485] You are?

[1486] Yes, and Michael McDonald's going with you to the concert.

[1487] I wish.

[1488] She's performing.

[1489] And Kenny Loggins.

[1490] What?

[1491] Yes, it's a yacht rock explosion.

[1492] You have a really big Friday plan.

[1493] I know.

[1494] Do you feel FOMO'd?

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] That's not necessarily your genre of music, though.

[1497] But I guess being around me, you've come to - Half of these people.

[1498] We'll know when you're at our house and I'm playing yacht rock.

[1499] I like Yacht Rock.

[1500] Over the Sonos, which is a good.

[1501] It's a great system.

[1502] Free ad, Friads on us.

[1503] But yeah, so no. But he also, most of his albums have flamingos on them.

[1504] Oh, wow.

[1505] Yeah, he really adopted the flamingo as his look.

[1506] Kind of like Jimmy Buffett with the parrot.

[1507] I guess a lot of these guys have their signature waterfowl.

[1508] Yes.

[1509] Well, I guess a parrot's not waterfowl.

[1510] Could be.

[1511] They could be.

[1512] It was splashing around in a bird bath.

[1513] Oof.

[1514] Oh, did you just think of that?

[1515] The same thing I did.

[1516] How about the chicken?

[1517] No, but now I thought of that.

[1518] The saddest thing at my daughter's preschool, they have a pet chicken that's been there for nine and a half years.

[1519] What's his name, Mr. Silver?

[1520] Shiny, I thought.

[1521] Mr. Shiny shirt?

[1522] I don't know.

[1523] Anyways.

[1524] We lost the chicken yesterday.

[1525] He or she.

[1526] It's got to be a she, right?

[1527] A chicken's a she.

[1528] Or rooster is a guy.

[1529] Maybe, yeah.

[1530] Oh, also let me just correct.

[1531] I was dead wrong, as people pointed out, that old faithful.

[1532] is actually, in fact, in Wisconsin.

[1533] No, I'm teasing.

[1534] It's in Wyoming.

[1535] Yeah, but you said Montana.

[1536] I said Montana, yeah, yeah.

[1537] Yeah, so they, shiny paths because, oh, God, and this is such a sad way too.

[1538] Although maybe it's peaceful, but through heat exhaustion because it's been brutally hot here in Illinois.

[1539] And there's a funeral today at school.

[1540] And they were encouraged to bring things that shiny shirt loved, which, so my daughter I brought blueberries.

[1541] Oh my gosh.

[1542] But I was watching the whole thing and I was listening to it yesterday.

[1543] It was a big event in our house.

[1544] And I thought, man, how cool that she goes to a school where they're going to like have a proper period of time where they process the loss of this chicken.

[1545] Yes.

[1546] And I was just thinking of how that didn't really happen in my childhood and how, I don't know, it just seems very cool.

[1547] Progressive and good.

[1548] and healthy and interesting and yeah and then it led me down this spiral too but thinking about just men in general and how we we seem to have more of an appetite for like just destruction and violence and all these things and I was thinking for me personally I can't speak for all men but some things are they're like they're so insurmountable and painful if I really think about them that I just choose I'm just going to not think I'm going to put I'm going to file that in a category in my head maybe try to get to whatever the solution is by just it's really weird and I just wonder if it's personal or a male female thing I I think it's probably more male but I definitely don't think it's a cut and dry male female thing yeah I think it's more I think it's more your childhood experiences that lead you to how emotionally available you are yeah but I I also think evolutionarily, considering that we were the ones killing beasts for hunting, mind you, I want to add the common misconception is that somehow hunting was feeding the clan.

[1549] But in hunting and gathering societies historically, the meat only made up about 10 % of the diet.

[1550] Women really fed humans for all of our time here.

[1551] With that said, we did hunt and we got into some combat with some animals.

[1552] So I do think you have to have a little compartment in your head as a male, which is like, shit's about to get gnarly and bloody, and I'm just going to go to this little zone in my head where I can do that.

[1553] That's true.

[1554] The violence aspect is, I would say, probably definitely more male.

[1555] But I still think a lot of women do the compartmentalizing aspect of hard things.

[1556] I guess it feels like we can shift into a psychopath state of mind.

[1557] men when necessary.

[1558] Yeah, but I think women can do that in a sociopathic way.

[1559] They're not in a psychopathic way.

[1560] They're probably not going to go murder somebody, but they can still put, well, I can.

[1561] Like, let's say this.

[1562] I give you an example.

[1563] Let's say that I come to find out Kristen has murdered one of our neighbors.

[1564] I can't think of anything more grotesque or horrible than having to chop someone up to get rid of the evidence.

[1565] But I would go, all right, here's what needs doing.

[1566] I'm going to, I'm going to do this.

[1567] Yeah.

[1568] To keep her out of prison.

[1569] I think I have a zone in my brain I could get to where I could do that because it needed doing.

[1570] I'm not sure Kristen could chop someone up for me. Could you chop someone up, Monica?

[1571] Could you give someone a good chopping?

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] You think so?

[1574] Yeah, I do think so.

[1575] I mean, I mean, it would have to be really obviously extreme circumstances.

[1576] Sure, sure, all these hypotheticals.

[1577] I probably wouldn't be able to do it for recreation.

[1578] My, for fun.

[1579] I wouldn't be able to, I probably wouldn't be able to do it for a spouse, but I don't have one, so I don't know.

[1580] But I probably would be able to do it for a child.

[1581] Maybe.

[1582] I don't, I mean.

[1583] We don't know.

[1584] We'll just have to wait for Kristen to murder a neighbor.

[1585] Well, she, that's the other thing.

[1586] You're also using the person that, like, It's so unrealistic.

[1587] She would never.

[1588] That's what helps lighten this very heavy conversation about dismembering somebody.

[1589] Faggot stacks.

[1590] Faggot stacks.

[1591] That's something that David.

[1592] The house.

[1593] That's the name of a house.

[1594] In the little hamlet in England, right?

[1595] And he wanted it because of the name and then the people changed the name.

[1596] Right.

[1597] So in that case, it, you know, means a stack of sticks, wood pieces.

[1598] So then how did the pejorative, where did it come from?

[1599] Like why?

[1600] I don't know because fag and faggot are both in the dictionary and both in England, right?

[1601] They call cigarettes fag and then they call the stack of tiny twigs bound together faggot.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] I don't know how on earth, yeah, we got the homosexual pejorative out of that.

[1604] I don't get it enough, you know.

[1605] Maybe because.

[1606] It would mean like a hundred -year -old man that uses that term.

[1607] We can go, where'd that come from?

[1608] Maybe one of our listeners will tell us.

[1609] Yeah.

[1610] How to make the leap from an innocent stack of sticks.

[1611] I guess because maybe the sticks are like.

[1612] Flimsy?

[1613] Yeah.

[1614] Wimpy.

[1615] Uh -huh.

[1616] I mean, that logic holds.

[1617] Yeah.

[1618] Okay.

[1619] Or if they were, if cigarettes were always fags.

[1620] and homosexuals are smoking hot.

[1621] Yeah, maybe it's that.

[1622] Maybe it was not negative.

[1623] Maybe it didn't start negative and then it turned negative.

[1624] Maybe it was a weird compliment.

[1625] You asked a plague of ticks was the first or second story in naked.

[1626] He couldn't remember and it's the second story.

[1627] Well, you talk about how you think, you know, this current culture of sensitivity is mainly happening not by.

[1628] the people, but by their advocates.

[1629] Oh, uh -huh.

[1630] And I think that's often true.

[1631] But I still think, I still think like the parents of, you know.

[1632] A disabled kid.

[1633] Sure.

[1634] The parents of a disabled kid have a right.

[1635] They still feel those things in the way that the kid does probably more because that you know, I mean, you have kids.

[1636] If somebody's mean to your kids or does something to your kids, you are probably going to feel that more than they are.

[1637] But again, I don't think there's a single example of where a parent of a kid with a disability observed that Sarah Silverman was calling that kid a name to their face.

[1638] The whole thing is theoretical and hypothetical because it's not being said to anybody.

[1639] Well, no. In the example of his example, it was.

[1640] They were at his thing.

[1641] It was the cancer thing.

[1642] Right.

[1643] Okay.

[1644] She was there with her son who had cancer.

[1645] Yeah, but I would say I know it's not her right to be offended by proxy that's bullshit because you're yes you're your kid with whatever they have yeah is is not separate your kid is a part of you and you are also dealing with whatever this issue is in a way that is a struggle and hard and probably a mental burden and all of these things there's no question it's hard but it is not their outrage or insult or hurt feelings to have.

[1646] It really isn't.

[1647] It's not theirs.

[1648] They aren't.

[1649] They don't have cancer.

[1650] So they can't, you know, my dad had cancer.

[1651] It's the same extension.

[1652] I can't be mad at people who made cancer jokes because my dad had cancer.

[1653] Now, if my dad wanted to be upset about cancer jokes, that would be his right.

[1654] But me doing it is just me trying to get in on something that's not even mine.

[1655] I need to butt the fuck out of the whole thing.

[1656] But it is yours.

[1657] If you've, you've, you're living with.

[1658] it and you're experiencing it day to day.

[1659] Well, what I'm living with is caring for someone with cancer.

[1660] So if someone makes a joke about a caregiver of cancer, then I have a right to be upset.

[1661] But I don't have cancer.

[1662] It's arrogant to say you're offended by someone else's issue.

[1663] But I think it's just, it's not as black and white as that.

[1664] It's not like people can totally divorce themselves from the thing if they're around the thing all the time and they're dealing with it in their own way.

[1665] I mean, it is not as easy as that.

[1666] I don't think it's easy.

[1667] think what they do is they go, oh my God, he just made this joke in front of my son and my son's struggling with this and that had to have hurt my son's feelings.

[1668] And now I'm really upset because my son was hurt on top of having cancer.

[1669] But at that point, you owe yourself as someone who is truthful with themselves.

[1670] You have the obligation to ask your son, did that hurt your feelings and want to comfort them?

[1671] And then they say no, then you're, you need to get over yourself.

[1672] Yeah.

[1673] The person who has it's not even offended.

[1674] You need to get over yourself.

[1675] Yeah, but we're assuming that that step is happening.

[1676] You're assuming that.

[1677] I'm assuming that the kid with cancer didn't really care about the cancer joke.

[1678] And we don't know if that's true or not.

[1679] No. But I'll give you the one that really upsets me is I've heard a bunch of great molesting jokes.

[1680] I've been molested.

[1681] Those jokes are still funny whether I was molested or not.

[1682] I am not triggered by that.

[1683] They're not saying anything about my scenario or that I deserve that.

[1684] They're making a very clever, funny joke.

[1685] that I can acknowledge is funny.

[1686] And there are other people who have not been molested who will say, you can't, there is nothing funny about being molested.

[1687] There is nothing funny.

[1688] My child was molested.

[1689] But they're full of shit because they weren't molested.

[1690] If they're saying that.

[1691] But there's a million things I have an experience that I think are offensive and not, and also not funny.

[1692] You can think things aren't funny and not.

[1693] I have no problem with someone thinking something's not funny.

[1694] I have a big, big problem with people telling comedians, what they're allowed to and not make jokes about.

[1695] I think that's horseshit.

[1696] Well, they don't, maybe they can't say it, but they have a right to not think it's funny, to not listen to their stuff to.

[1697] No, no one's complaining about that.

[1698] It's when someone's writing an article about Sarah Silverman, and they're not even the person that they're defending when they're just an advocate.

[1699] That's someone that just wants in.

[1700] They just want attention.

[1701] They want to make a point.

[1702] That's not fair.

[1703] I don't think.

[1704] I think so.

[1705] Well, I defend, I defend things all the time on here that I'm not.

[1706] That's fine.

[1707] You can't act personally offended.

[1708] I would have an issue with that, which you don't do.

[1709] Like we're best friends.

[1710] You hear someone make the joke.

[1711] There's a great joke about a Boy Scout leader and Timmy and they're walking out into the forest.

[1712] And it's nighttime.

[1713] And Timmy says, I'm scared.

[1714] It's dark out here.

[1715] And the scout leader says, how do you think I feel?

[1716] I got to walk out of here alone.

[1717] That's a funny joke.

[1718] Now, we're friends.

[1719] You go, that's not funny because my friend Dax was molested and it changed the course of his life.

[1720] I don't want you to do that.

[1721] I don't want anyone to do that.

[1722] I understand, but you also can't stop that person from thinking in their head, hmm, that isn't funny to me because I do know personally that that in life because of my relationship with somebody else is a painful thing.

[1723] And I just so, so that isn't making, I don't think it's funny.

[1724] That's fine.

[1725] I'd have no issue with someone not thinking someone's, something's funny.

[1726] This whole conversation we're having, which started with David Sedaris's, having a guest who wrote him a letter to complain.

[1727] I'm just saying like you, um, in my opinion, are acting as if it's very easy to separate yourself from other things that are adjacent to you.

[1728] But everything's just all sort of one experience.

[1729] Like it's one experience.

[1730] Your experience on life is not just solely what you are experiencing.

[1731] Of course not.

[1732] Yeah.

[1733] But you can't sue someone who mugged your child, sue them because you've been caused pain and hardship from the mugging you didn't receive.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] You know, I just think there's very.

[1736] clear boundaries about what, what is your grievance and what is someone else's grievance.

[1737] Okay.

[1738] All right.

[1739] Suicide contagion.

[1740] Mm -hmm.

[1741] Okay.

[1742] In 2014, there was an article in the New York Times that said when Marilyn Monroe died with the cause list of it is probable suicide.

[1743] In the months after, there was like a lot of news coverage, widespread sorrow.

[1744] And according to a study, the suicide rate in the U .S. jumped by 12%.

[1745] Oh, wow.

[1746] compared with the same months in the previous year.

[1747] That's significant.

[1748] So, yeah, and they said there's often a strong effect from celebrity suicide specifically.

[1749] So that's interesting.

[1750] Kabuki Theater.

[1751] He loves Kabuki Theater.

[1752] Yeah, which was so interesting.

[1753] I've never heard anyone really rave about Kabuki Theater.

[1754] Classical Japanese dance drama, known for the stylization of its drama and for the elaborate makeup worn by some of its performers.

[1755] Okay.

[1756] Oh, and he said the instrument he thought was called a shamassan.

[1757] Did that check out?

[1758] Yes.

[1759] He thought it was a two -string instrument, three strengths.

[1760] Okay, so he was 50 % off.

[1761] Mm -hmm.

[1762] Mm -hmm.

[1763] You also mentioned cricket and my dad played cricket.

[1764] He did?

[1765] Yeah, and you were kind of.

[1766] I was mean about it.

[1767] A little bit.

[1768] Did you tell him that I don't approve of that?

[1769] No, I'd never tell him.

[1770] I'd love to get on the horn and talk to him about why he played that game.

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] Well, in India, I guess what else are you going to play?

[1774] There weren't many other games.

[1775] Yeah.

[1776] So, um, okay, so an eight ball of cocaine.

[1777] Yeah.

[1778] I mean, I think you mentioned it a ton, but I just decided to do some Googling on my own.

[1779] And then I'm going to inform the world in case I don't know, an eight ball is three and a half grams, one eighth of an ounce.

[1780] That's why it's called that.

[1781] I never knew.

[1782] Yeah.

[1783] Mm -hmm.

[1784] That's cool, right?

[1785] Yeah.

[1786] And I don't know this part of it, but perhaps when you get cocaine that's not been cut, usually like it's being chipped off of a kilo, so it's a clump, right?

[1787] So generally if you get a kind of uncut bit of cocaine, it is in a like a big rock or a ball.

[1788] It generally looks like a ball if it's good.

[1789] Got it.

[1790] Cool.

[1791] If it looks like a bag of sugar, you're probably getting a lot of baby laxative.

[1792] Oh.

[1793] And I just want to make sure people know we weren't being cavalier about people who don't have money and who are begging for money at the airport and at the gas station and stuff.

[1794] I just want to be clear about that.

[1795] Because you think it may have read as just.

[1796] Because we're like laughing while we're talking about maybe.

[1797] Yeah.

[1798] You know.

[1799] For me, it was much more was commenting on the con aspect of it.

[1800] Exactly.

[1801] Yes.

[1802] Yes, which exactly.

[1803] And so I just wanted to make that clear.

[1804] That was what we were laughing at, the sort of like.

[1805] The bullshit story.

[1806] Yeah.

[1807] It's, yeah, they should just ask.

[1808] Yeah, just go ahead and ask.

[1809] Yeah.

[1810] You don't need to carry a gas can around.

[1811] Okay.

[1812] The Nan Robertson book that he mentioned that he really liked is not called getting sober.

[1813] It's called Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous.

[1814] And it came out in July in 1988.

[1815] Oh, you were one years old.

[1816] Yeah, I was.

[1817] I was almost one.

[1818] Did you read it?

[1819] I was not even quite one.

[1820] You weren't quite one.

[1821] July of 1988.

[1822] Did you read it?

[1823] No. You were 11 months old.

[1824] Yeah.

[1825] Flannery O 'Connor.

[1826] You said you hadn't read any.

[1827] But you heard of her, right?

[1828] No, not really.

[1829] I think we had to read her in school.

[1830] Oh, really?

[1831] Yeah.

[1832] Well, and of course we had to read her in school because she's from Georgia.

[1833] Oh.

[1834] To be fully honest, when I hear flannery, I actually even think it's a guy.

[1835] Because I only know one flannery and he's the guy who owns Largo and he's a man. Oh, interesting.

[1836] Yeah.

[1837] Flying all right.

[1838] Yeah, that's true.

[1839] That's my Irish accent.

[1840] Do you like it?

[1841] Flying all right.

[1842] I love it.

[1843] Oh, one thing I wanted to mention, the Tobias Wolf moment where you screamed, oh my God.

[1844] Yeah.

[1845] In the episode, it does not come off as crazy sounding or as dramatic as it did in person.

[1846] Oh, really?

[1847] Yes.

[1848] Arm cherries.

[1849] In person, it was so loud and jarring.

[1850] So jarring.

[1851] So out of nowhere.

[1852] Made everyone uncomfortable and scared.

[1853] Really scared.

[1854] We would be accurate to say you guys all thought maybe I got stung by a bee or something.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] Something dramatic had happened real time.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] Yeah.

[1859] Exactly.

[1860] Exactly.

[1861] Exactly.

[1862] Dirty realist authors is a term coined by Bill Buford of Granta magazine to define a North American literary movement.

[1863] Writers in this subcategory of realism are said to depict the seymier or more mundane aspects of ordinary life and spare unadorned language.

[1864] And your boy is considered the godfather.

[1865] Yes.

[1866] Bukowski.

[1867] Oh, Bukowski is.

[1868] Oh, I thought you were going to say that.

[1869] Raymond Carver is also in this, Tobias Wolf and a bunch of other people.

[1870] But, yeah.

[1871] Oh, Bukowski's the.

[1872] Yeah.

[1873] I always thought he was very Hemingway -esque.

[1874] Which is sort of, which is kind of that.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] One thing that we kind of blew past, but that I liked so much that he said was you can always lose two pages.

[1877] Mm. Because I think that makes him way more special than anyone real.

[1878] realizes because artists in general are generally so precious, so precious.

[1879] It's so hard to even cut a word or two out.

[1880] And he's like, you can just always lose two pages.

[1881] And that is really evolved and a very good lesson to writers that, like, if he's doing that, then, you know, he could write a 500 -page book if he wanted to.

[1882] He sure could.

[1883] And he's being really smart about it.

[1884] Okay, the Shell Silverstein picture of the head is called, it's a poem called The Loser.

[1885] Oh.

[1886] Yeah.

[1887] Oh.

[1888] So you guys can check it out.

[1889] Yeah, it's good.

[1890] It's pretty good.

[1891] I love me some Shell Silverstein.

[1892] Me too.

[1893] Did you ever see the book?

[1894] It was a grown -up book.

[1895] And it was like among, it was kept in another area of our books.

[1896] It was for grown -ups.

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] And there was like some sexual stuff in it.

[1899] But one of them was my favorite was it shows this.

[1900] very regal handsome actor walking down Broadway.

[1901] He walks into a theater.

[1902] He goes backstage.

[1903] He puts on a fat suit.

[1904] He puts on a bald wig.

[1905] He goes out on stage.

[1906] He does this performance of an old fat, bald man. He comes and he gets roses.

[1907] He comes back.

[1908] He takes the bald wig off.

[1909] He takes the fat suit off.

[1910] Then he goes home.

[1911] And when he gets in his house, he takes his real wig off.

[1912] And he undoes his girdle.

[1913] And he is the guy that he's going through prosthetics to me. Oh, my gosh.

[1914] I like that.

[1915] I think of that, that thing, like once a week.

[1916] I think of that.

[1917] Oh, wow, I love that.

[1918] I think it's really true to life.

[1919] Poignant, yeah.

[1920] I want to look that up.

[1921] Are poinsettias poisonous?

[1922] No one is sure how this myth started, although it's often attributed to the 1919 death of a girl whose parents thought she'd eaten poinsettia leaves.

[1923] Oh, yeah, because all growing up, weren't you warned around Christmas time?

[1924] I think so.

[1925] Eat those red, beautiful plants?

[1926] Yes.

[1927] But it said the truth is a kid would have to eat about 500.

[1928] Ponsetti leaves to get sick.

[1929] Oh, okay.

[1930] So really only a warning to point Zeta farmers.

[1931] Sure.

[1932] And their families.

[1933] Sure.

[1934] And if their children have PICA or Pika or that eating disorder is where you compulsively eat things.

[1935] Like paper.

[1936] Like hair and carpet.

[1937] I used to kind of chew on paper a lot.

[1938] Yeah, that's fair.

[1939] But you weren't swallowing it.

[1940] I don't think I did.

[1941] My ex -girlfriend Carrie was obsessed with Pika or PICA, whatever it is, and she knew all these stories about, like, one.

[1942] I mean, and I'm going to view her discretion advice.

[1943] Like, they pulled, someone had to get opened up and they pulled, like, a four -pound ball of hair out of somebody.

[1944] You just have to imagine how much hair it takes to weigh four pounds.

[1945] Ew.

[1946] It has to be, like, six heads of hair.

[1947] Oh, yeah.

[1948] All I can think of is, like, the drain hair.

[1949] There was a show, like, on TLC or one of those channels, It's called like My Strange Obsession.

[1950] Yeah, no, yeah.

[1951] Did you ever see that?

[1952] And Chris and I watched one where like a girl like had to huff talcum powder.

[1953] But the craziest one was this woman loved eating sand.

[1954] She had to be chewing sand.

[1955] I'm like, that's my worst nightmares having grains of sand in my mouth.

[1956] Ew.

[1957] And she was eating like a good bucket of sand a day.

[1958] Because most of them have a malnourishment, right?

[1959] Like there's something, a lot of those do.

[1960] Maybe not give pika.

[1961] But yeah, there's something happening.

[1962] I've heard that.

[1963] But I think it also might be two different things.

[1964] My paper thing doesn't seem as weird.

[1965] I'm sorry.

[1966] I didn't mean to lessen your trauma.

[1967] Just chew on it.

[1968] IBS is irritable bowel syndrome.

[1969] We all know.

[1970] But you aren't weak if you have it.

[1971] You said that when you thought you had it, you were like, I'm just weak and I have this.

[1972] But you're not weak if you have IBS.

[1973] No, you're not.

[1974] I guess.

[1975] It's just something.

[1976] I also have arthritis.

[1977] And it starts to feel like I am a male -nourished.

[1978] human that I am weak.

[1979] You were living off caro syrup for a lot of fear, early years.

[1980] That's all.

[1981] That's everything.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] And, oh, you know, one thing we didn't talk about in this week's fact check, which I just regretted that it never came up in the fact check of Portugal, the man, is that you noticed that John, do you know what I'm going to say?

[1984] Yes, of course.

[1985] At some point in the interview, you noticed that John had what appeared to be very strong hands.

[1986] I did.

[1987] I did notice.

[1988] Right?

[1989] And you got kind of transfixed on them.

[1990] Yeah.

[1991] I did.

[1992] They, um...

[1993] Were you able to build a whole attraction based on that foundation of his hands?

[1994] I liked his hands.

[1995] Mm -hmm.

[1996] I did.

[1997] They, well, mainly because he was so, so sweet and very nice, very nice.

[1998] Very soft -spoken and then I caught wind of his hands.

[1999] And I was like, oh, there's something kind of secret.

[2000] There's some secret power here, some secret strength.

[2001] Yeah, and that got you kind of going all over.

[2002] Oh, yeah, I liked it.

[2003] Okay, that's all I want to say.

[2004] I just wanted, I can't imagine John will be listening to the future episodes of the show.

[2005] Should he or anyone who knows John Gurley, just pass on that Monica loved his strong hands.

[2006] All right.

[2007] I love you.

[2008] Monica loves hands.

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