Stacey Abrams (Former Georgia State Representative & Voting Rights Activist)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by Monica Padman in Amstintia.

[2] But worry not, she's a part of this episode.

[3] We got to talk to one of our favorite people on Planned Earth.

[4] Stacey Abrams.

[5] Stacey Abrams is a best -selling author, an entrepreneur, and a political leader.

[6] She's written several books.

[7] While Justice Sleeps, Our Time is Now, Lead from the Outside, and her new book, Stacey's Extraordinary Words, which is her debut children's book based on her experience participating in spelling bees while in elementary school.

[8] It's a story about a little girl who learns to persevere in the face of adversity.

[9] Please enjoy Stacey Abrams.

[10] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[11] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[12] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[13] Hi.

[14] Hi, how are you?

[15] I'm so good.

[16] My name is Dax, Randall Shepard, and this is Monica Lily Padman.

[17] It's a pleasure to meet you both.

[18] I am well aware and a huge fan.

[19] Oh, thank you.

[20] Us too.

[21] Do you know that Monica is a very proud, proud representative of the state of Georgia?

[22] We have done our research and we appreciate that.

[23] Thank you.

[24] Oh, yeah.

[25] I have lots of people back home who are going to be very excited for this.

[26] And I'll say that Monica has monitored your movements with a specific interest.

[27] I don't know.

[28] She's just a very loud cheerleader for Stacey, which, of course.

[29] Which everyone is, but.

[30] But you in particular, I feel like you've got a real, like, potential captain of your fan club in Monica.

[31] I am deeply appreciative.

[32] Now, question, where in Atlanta are you from?

[33] Duluth.

[34] Gotcha.

[35] Grew up there, went to Duluth High School, and my whole family's there.

[36] Went to school in Athens.

[37] Yep, went to you, GA.

[38] I went to Spelman, so I'm wholly agnostic about these things.

[39] Wait, that sounds like a qualifier.

[40] Like, I went to Spelman, so I'm agnostic.

[41] What does that mean?

[42] Yeah, because there's like a Georgia Tech, UGA, fuse.

[43] Oh, there's a fight.

[44] Yeah.

[45] So she can't really take a side.

[46] But we know what side she's on.

[47] You're floating above it all at Spelman there.

[48] Well, we don't have sports, so, yeah.

[49] We do.

[50] We just don't care.

[51] So, yeah, it makes it a lot easier.

[52] I think the school you went to that interests me most.

[53] Now I'm going to get into my perverse interest in you.

[54] Did you love UT?

[55] I just have always fan of it.

[56] about living in Austin.

[57] I just, anytime I can go there, I leap at the opportunity.

[58] It's amazing.

[59] I was there 20 years ago, but it was so much fun.

[60] And if it weren't in Texas, I probably would have stayed longer.

[61] But I knew I had political interest.

[62] And I was there when Ann Richards lost to G .W. Bush.

[63] And, yeah, I was good.

[64] I was, I hit it back.

[65] I guess in what's interesting to me, I'm sure you've, observe this weird coincidence or parallel.

[66] But the fact that you went to the LBJ school and that LBJ was famously elected as a senator through total horse trading with different county seats about the tallies of these elections.

[67] Like it was the most fraudulent election, maybe on record, was his.

[68] Oh, yeah, it was absolutely.

[69] So Robert Caro, who has done the compendium on the life of LBJ, His volume on the election is probably one of the most perfect pieces of understanding.

[70] Because this was less voter suppression.

[71] It was just straight up fraud.

[72] And there was the whole segregation and Jim Crow took care of the suppression part.

[73] So when you got to this election, it was just straight out voter fraud.

[74] And he stole that election.

[75] And it worked for him.

[76] Yeah.

[77] And to bring folks up to speed who might not have read those books.

[78] I don't know which one I'm on, 28 of 400 maybe, but so all these different voting districts have a deadline to turn in.

[79] And there's all these districts and kind of the outer circles from Austin that are just kind of holding their data.

[80] And his campaign's calling and going, okay, so we're down by 127.

[81] So we need you guys to win by 41 ,500.

[82] And literally the tallies come in all exactly what he needed.

[83] It's so corrupt.

[84] It's crazy.

[85] Yeah, so it's means of assent.

[86] So it's the second book in the compendium and Cook Stevenson and the way Robert Carrey describes him.

[87] And if you read the first book, you know how scrappy LBJ was and how he was very comfortable with pervarication and with getting what he needed.

[88] Which is why I find him to be such a fascinating and important political person because the good that he was able to accomplish, despite the means that he used to get.

[89] to his positions of power are instructive, but not instructive as in follow his path, but instructive as in learn how this stuff happened.

[90] Just have to clarify, because that could get out there.

[91] Yeah, it's almost like a reverse tragedy, if you think about it.

[92] He's like through hook and crook and self -enrichment ends up in this position and then ultimately has some positive impact.

[93] It's almost like the reverse of a normal fable, his story.

[94] Yeah, so, I mean, if you think about the beginning of his story, the scrappiness, the poverty, the dismal nature, and always the narrative, there are these flashes of kindness, these flashes of humanity.

[95] And it's kind of like watching Darth Vader's story if you didn't know the end, you're trying to figure out sort of what happened, or maybe Maleficent, something like that.

[96] But you've got this person who as a single soul contains all of these tensions and is an aggressive and egregious racist who also teaches young Mexican children because he believes that it is just a pox honor society that they would be denied education.

[97] He does these things of extraordinary grace, but he was also the architect of continuing segregation years after there might have been an opportunity.

[98] And then there was a great society in trying to end poverty.

[99] And I thank him for that.

[100] So I am a huge LBJ fan, but I'm a fan with knowledge, not a fan just because.

[101] But to your point about the reverse fable, it's someone who, on balance, his contributions do not negate his terrible actions, but they give context to it in a way that we don't often get to see and understand.

[102] Yeah, I love the Darth Vader parallel because, yes, when he's a young rising politician and he's so young to be in all these rooms.

[103] And if I recall, he was, like, very instrumental in the electrification of Texas, which was a, that's a very populist kind of movement and almost a very democratic under the current definition movement.

[104] Yeah, and then as he became disillusioned or his star stopped rising at the rate that satiated his ego, he's like, well, fuck it, let's just get loaded, let's get rich.

[105] It's a wild story.

[106] I'm so glad you're so up on it.

[107] Do you think we can extend any?

[108] And I don't know the answer to this, but part of me does read that and think, well, let's be honest, politics was a different game back then.

[109] And perhaps there was a feeling of the means justifies the ends or that this is already an ugly scrap.

[110] I mean, I guess when I'm asking is, has the political arena evolved?

[111] Is there a much different general ethos that there wasn't then?

[112] I don't think so.

[113] Part of the reason political biographies in particular fascinate me in his life and Robert Carrow's care with telling his life, the reason I find it so fascinating and instructive is that it's different variations on the same theme, that if you think about the story of whether you learned it from Hamilton, the book or Hamilton, the musical, the internecine fights, the petty bitterness, the willingness, to manufacture your outcomes.

[114] All of these pieces have always been part of the narrative of power, and that's ultimately what this is a conversation about.

[115] And I think in LBJ, you had this man who sort of strode upon the national stage for so long that we get to see the arc of his story.

[116] And what we see in the current moment is really the snippets.

[117] We get the Instagram version of these arcs, as opposed to Robert Caro 48 years in the writing, you know, sort of life history.

[118] But I think to your point, the ethos isn't different.

[119] It just has evolved to meet the moment and to meet the crises that we face.

[120] But also, it's still driven by the same conversations of ego and power and loss and want and jealousy and narcissism, which is why for me the conversation is always, how do you guard against any of these weaknesses or these seductive attractions?

[121] but at the same time how do you learn from the skills that it took to get these things done to come from nothing to build power to leverage your space to accomplish your ends and I have the privilege of serving on the LBJ Foundation Board and one of the reasons I wanted to be on this board is that this is the one person in American history for whom the triumph of his success and the tragedy of his flaws played out on a national stage you've got civil rights movement, you've got the great society, and you've got Vietnam, all encapsulated in the same man in a two -decade span.

[122] And that, to me, is instructive about what we're seeing today.

[123] Knowing that and being a fan and understanding it, do you think we're asking way too much of current politicians or prominent people to be all one thing, to be all good to not have any of those, you know, it's just impossible.

[124] Yeah, people suck.

[125] Thank you.

[126] Thank you.

[127] We make terrible mistakes and we do petty small things.

[128] But we are also grace and kindness and we do amazing, terrific things.

[129] And to bring in one of the best shows ever was a good place.

[130] Michael's character was perfectly emblematic of this conversation that, yes, you can do bad.

[131] You can be a bad person.

[132] You don't get to forget what you were, but you can be forgiven for what you've done if you were truly, truly repentant, and you should have the opportunity for a redemption arc. And that ultimately, if we are doing our jobs as well as citizens, we create space for each of those things.

[133] Now, there are some things that are so egregious, forgiveness and redemption will never mean that you once again get access.

[134] But it doesn't mean that your condemnation has to be permanent.

[135] And I think that's the tension we're seeing in this whole conversation about who's allowed back in or not.

[136] you can come back, but you're going to lose your place and you may have to work really, really, really hard to ever get there again.

[137] And you should know that you sacrificed it yourself when you decided that this was the thing you were willing to do.

[138] You may be eons in the making before you get back to it, which is not to say you shouldn't work at it.

[139] And the point of working for redemption is not that you get to go back to where you were is that you know you have to earn the respect and the trust and the opportunity again.

[140] So if I heard you correctly, I think what you just said was Giuliani's got a number, another shot.

[141] I will say this, that he is one of those people, but the beginning place, the starting point is that you have to admit who you are and what you've done, and you've got to admit.

[142] I think that we're a little safe with that one.

[143] Just given the time horizon.

[144] Yeah, exactly.

[145] Apocalypse is nigh, so there you got.

[146] I tend to agree with you.

[147] So let's assume that kind of the corruption of power is a constant.

[148] and I wonder if what's really evolved is transparency and access and how much harder it is to keep a secret in 2021 than it was in 1940.

[149] Would you agree that that's a huge element of all this evolution?

[150] Oh, absolutely.

[151] I think there are three pieces.

[152] There's the transparency.

[153] There's also the fracturing of the source of information.

[154] Monica, I don't know how old you are, but Dax, I think even...

[155] And Dax, Holder you.

[156] We're the same age, virtually.

[157] You and I. There you go.

[158] I thought so.

[159] So if you think about it, like we grew up.

[160] there were four sources of information on television.

[161] It was ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS if you watched the News Hour.

[162] That was it.

[163] Everyone could take that information in and do with it what they will, but we all got the same information at the same time every single day.

[164] And it was pretty homogenized even within the three.

[165] And so we had a common story.

[166] And if you go back to the 1940s or even back to the inception of the country, for so long there was a single source or at least a contained homogenous source of information and what we have seen in the 21st century is this fracturing of not just our information but fracturing of what constitutes truth and so if you're in politics it's created two dynamics one is that everyone knows something but everyone also thinks they know everything and it's hard to represent people when they all have a different story that they're telling themselves about you and they've got someone who tells them that story's right.

[167] But then the other piece is that there's no privacy for compromise.

[168] There's no privacy for contrition.

[169] You don't get to make a mistake, apologize, and try to fix it because everyone's going to know and everyone's going to be able to information and attribute motive to it.

[170] And if you want to do good, if you want to work with someone else, God help you if someone finds out that you're talking to someone you're not supposed to talk to because then all of the conspiracy has been out again.

[171] And so politics in this day and age, yeah, it's hard.

[172] to be anything but pure because everyone is going to see deviation as a reinforcement of conspiracy, and they've got enough information, be it true or false, to validate their position.

[173] I'd imagine, too, like, you're also battling another element of this, which is when someone has a transgression, you're not actually even evaluating the transgression as much as you're filing it immediately into your broader narrative that Democrats are evil or Republicans are evil.

[174] So now this transgression, which you've now conflated or married with this broader story you're telling, does have the weight of good and evil, and it does then seem unforgivable.

[175] Exactly.

[176] That's precisely and well put.

[177] Thank you.

[178] A compliment from you I'll take.

[179] I would maybe suggest that we watched this great documentary.

[180] You probably saw it too.

[181] It was on Netflix about social media.

[182] Oh, the social dilemma?

[183] Yes.

[184] And the conclusion was it's both utopia and dystopia, which I tend to agree with.

[185] I hate the binary.

[186] So we're very focused on the problem.

[187] of it currently, which is, yeah, no one has a shared set of data or a shared story, and that makes compromise really hard.

[188] But then the other side of it is there's just increased transparency, and it is harder to graph the populace, I'd say.

[189] So it's probably both things.

[190] Would you agree?

[191] Yeah, I think it's both things.

[192] And I would say that we have to remember that within those two poles of existence, people have varying degrees of access.

[193] So if you live in communities where broadband, much like rural electrification back in the 1920s is still a myth, then you're still getting your information.

[194] Now, the question is you're still stuck in a bubble where your information is coming from either a liberal media or a conservative media that bought your local paper or owned your local radio station that's telling you the only truth they're going to let you hear.

[195] And if you don't have either the will or the capacity to venture out to find more information, you might be stuck somewhere closer to dystopia than utopia than you'd like.

[196] But at the same time, if you're young and nimble and you've learned how to navigate these spaces and you've had the benefit of an education that's given you the skills to sift, then you get closer to a utopia because you actually can figure out what all this means.

[197] The challenge is that we all exist in different parts of our lives somewhere on that spectrum, and we're not always aware of where we are on the spectrum.

[198] We all think we're here and you might be living in the bad place and you think you're great.

[199] We don't know.

[200] And that's where the danger comes in.

[201] And that's where political power can be so effective and so destructive because it has the ability to shape where you think you are and convince you of what's happening to you without you ever realizing, no, that's not actually what was going on because you don't realize where you are on that continuum.

[202] Yeah, I say this all the time, but like I most certainly could predict my wife's behavior much better than she could predict her own behavior in any given situation.

[203] And likewise, she could predict mine.

[204] Like our general overinflated sense of how we understand ourselves is quite dangerous.

[205] Yeah.

[206] It's a very large bastardization of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

[207] Like the presence of light means you can't actually know what you're seeing.

[208] And so we can't see ourselves because we've got all of the content that we think we have.

[209] And we're always going to confuse ourselves about what it is because we're going to give ourselves the benefit of way too much doubt.

[210] And we're going to condemn ourselves way too often for things that nobody else cares about.

[211] But an external person can see you and give you both grace and mercy in the same moment.

[212] But you have to trust that person's observations.

[213] And because of the fracturing, we don't always do that.

[214] Yeah.

[215] Okay.

[216] So what you and I share is, I'll call it for myself, kink for words.

[217] I always have had a kink for words.

[218] Really, really, at different ages.

[219] I probably not going to use that language.

[220] You're not, but I've got to make it spicy or everyone will shut it off.

[221] I'll handle the spice.

[222] You handle the knowledge.

[223] Mine flourished in junior high, and it was all oral because I'm dyslexic, so I couldn't spell any one of these words.

[224] But I don't think until I was reading your book or learning your history that I forced myself to recognize why I had this predilection towards them is that I felt pretty low class.

[225] And I also felt dumb in school.

[226] So this little verbal ability I had, I felt like elevated my status, but weirdly socioeconomically and just educationally.

[227] It was a very status -driven thing for me. I'm curious if you think you know the roots of your, you're not going to call it a kink, but your love for words.

[228] It's not similar in the driver, but similar in the approach.

[229] So my family, working class poor, it even begins with how my mom described us.

[230] We had no money.

[231] My dad was a shipyard worker who barely scraped by.

[232] My mom was a college librarian who made less sometimes than the janitor who cleaned the college.

[233] And they had way too many kids.

[234] So there were six of us.

[235] So my parents, we were working class poor or just real poor, but my mother would call us the genteel poor.

[236] She would say, we had no money, but we read books and we watched PBS.

[237] And so even then, there was a status to the fact that we were bibliophiles, that we loved language that we read, that when we went out for a weekend, my parents would take us all to the library.

[238] And that was a big deal.

[239] We read voraciously.

[240] And it was both status.

[241] I don't think we internalized it in that way, but it was important to us that we read because my mom wanted us to understand that we could be anything we wanted.

[242] We could be in any world we wanted if we read.

[243] But it was also a way to frame who we were and how we engaged in my dad, who is dyslexic.

[244] Both my parents grew up in Mississippi, and my dad grew up dyslexic and segregated Mississippi schools.

[245] Sounds like he started on the 50 -yard line.

[246] Yeah.

[247] of somebody else's field.

[248] So dad, they basically told him he was stupid.

[249] And I'm sure you had a similar experience where people dismissed his intelligence, his native intelligence because he couldn't read.

[250] And they didn't have the capacity for diagnosis.

[251] And then you layer on top of that, the racism that he was already pervasive.

[252] And so my father used to memorize everything.

[253] He never missed a day of school so he could memorize everything in class.

[254] But because of that, my dad is a same.

[255] amazing storyteller.

[256] And I grew up not only loving words for, from reading, I grew up loving words because my dad would tell these amazing, fantastical stories.

[257] And for me, the combination of my mother's high literacy and my dad's just volubility and ability to weave these worlds, words and reading for me were both an escape, but they were also a validation of who I was and what I could become.

[258] And that's never left me. Yeah, I would imagine, too, like, I mean, look, Atlanta's better than a lot of places, which is probably sad in itself, but just context, I'm from Detroit, and I'd go down to Atlanta, and I would always look around and go like, if I was black, I'd be on the first fucking train to Atlanta if I lived in Detroit.

[259] I see middle class black people.

[260] I see professionals.

[261] I see all kinds of things I didn't see in Detroit.

[262] And yet, even in Atlanta where it's probably as good as it gets at that time, unless you enter something that's objective, like a spelling bee, there's no true middle finger you can give to shake this stereotype.

[263] I want to say something more specific than that.

[264] But yes, the stereotype.

[265] I wonder if it was like, oh, no, this is a place that's objective.

[266] Your biases aside, I'm going to spell this word correctly or not.

[267] Oh, so I grew up in Mississippi.

[268] So when I was in second grade, I was in Gulfport, Mississippi.

[269] That's worse than Detroit.

[270] Never mind.

[271] I take back everything I just said.

[272] That is worse.

[273] I've been there, too, and I've been there.

[274] I thought I'd get the fuck out of here if I was black.

[275] So I would agree that Atlanta was a nirvana compared to how we grew up.

[276] Yeah, I grew up on 2020 South Street in Gulfport, Mississippi.

[277] So when I was in the spelling bee, but your point is it was exactly that.

[278] And not in the conscious way, me, I'm in second grade.

[279] But I learned later that one of the challenges was I was, so I was in first grade.

[280] I learned to read when I was really, really young.

[281] I was a very aggressive reader, loved words.

[282] So when I got to first grade, I was actually very fair.

[283] advanced.

[284] They recommended that I moved to second grade, but they held me back because they were waiting for two young white girls to catch up with me because they didn't want me to be the only one who got advanced.

[285] And the only black teacher at the school called my parents and said they were supposed to move Stacey to second grade and they haven't.

[286] You need to find out what's going on.

[287] And so it was my parents intercession that led me to being moved to second grade.

[288] And yeah, I didn't know that when I was there.

[289] I just knew one day the principal came and pulled me out the class and I'm like, I know I said something inappropriate about Ms. Kimberg, my first grade teacher, because I didn't like her.

[290] God rest her soul, she's probably a perfectly lovely person, but that was a bad day for me in class.

[291] She had her own trauma, I'm sure.

[292] Exactly.

[293] And so I just remember I did something that was impolite.

[294] And the next thing I know, Ms. Holquist, the principal is coming to get me. And I'm like, oh, God.

[295] And then she takes me outside.

[296] And I, it's probably where you grew up in Duluth, Monica, you guys had trailers at your school.

[297] Many.

[298] So second graders were in trailers.

[299] She takes me out of the school.

[300] building out back.

[301] Now, I have no idea what's happening.

[302] And I am following this woman out back.

[303] And I'm like, I am going to die.

[304] I don't know what, or I'm going to be beaten with an inch of my life.

[305] I will apologize.

[306] Please let me, let me go back.

[307] And then she takes me to this trailer.

[308] And I've never seen these trailers before.

[309] So I'm like, oh, they're going to bury my body out here or something.

[310] She knocks on the door and the door opens and outsteps this woman who in the stapled sunlight of Gulfport, Mississippi, looks like an angel because I'm not in trouble.

[311] And she welcomes me, and that's Ms. Blakley, my second grade teacher, and she's the one who got me into spelling bees and really let me sort of integrate myself into the class because I was different, because I was quite because I was a little black girl who had been moved and other kids hadn't.

[312] And she knew that words made me happy.

[313] So she would let me read when all the kids would go out to recess and I didn't want to go and play.

[314] She would let me sit in the classroom and let me stay in the trailer and read.

[315] And that to me just it gave me comfort again.

[316] And as for you, when words are your comfort, any time you can spend time with them is a great thing.

[317] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[318] We've all been there.

[319] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[320] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[321] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting citizens.

[322] symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[323] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[324] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[325] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[326] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[327] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

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[335] It's probably hard for you to parse out, but what was the driving factor for wanting to be alone at recess?

[336] Or is it a multitude of reasons?

[337] I was close to shy.

[338] I was particular.

[339] I was awkward.

[340] I was new.

[341] I was scared.

[342] I'd just been dropped into this new space.

[343] And there were some mean kids who questioned whether I should be there, who didn't like my skin tone.

[344] And I found that it's much easier not to get into, fights when you're by yourself.

[345] So I stayed in the class.

[346] I used to fight my brother about 12 hours of the day and they'd always say, well, you can't fight yourself.

[347] So clearly you're both.

[348] I kind of think that at that age and being very different, I feel like there's one of two options.

[349] You either decide to be like everybody at like assimilate as much as you can, which is what I did, or decide you're you and go in that kind of like go in that direction.

[350] And it's going to It might be a lonely road.

[351] And it might be lonely, but you're you, at least.

[352] Yeah, that takes a ton of conviction at that age.

[353] We were just watching Hussein Minaj.

[354] I don't know if you know him or not, but we were watching his stand -up.

[355] In this, like, revelation Monica had leaving the theater was like so beautiful to watch, but she was like, I just so impressed that that dude never ran from being DESE and just was like, I'm fucking DESA and it's a thing and it panned out.

[356] Like the opposite of what I was, I was like, oh my God, no one can even know.

[357] I can't have any food in my lunch that's different.

[358] And he just embraced it and it's worked out.

[359] And I think that's a good lesson.

[360] For me, so I have an older sister who is three years older.

[361] And I remember the first day I was in second grade.

[362] And I had to go outside with the class.

[363] But I was sitting by myself on the concrete.

[364] And Andrea, like, comes running over because she was in PE in the same field.

[365] And she was like, what are you doing out here?

[366] Like, she thought I was in trouble.

[367] going to try to sneak me back in so I didn't get and I'm like no I go to class out here now she's like what are you talking about like I vaguely understood what was going on I could just say I'm in Miss Blake's class now and I'm okay and so she went she just walked me back over to the class to make sure I wasn't lying and because she's very protective older sister but like she was the familiar face I had and it was this moment I didn't realize how scared I was until I saw her because I remember just being so happy to see her And for me, because my family were so very close, they're six kids, 12 years between the oldest and the youngest.

[368] And my parents were so intentional about, not an externalized way, but they told us to be ourselves.

[369] They were always encouraging us to read and to think and, you know, they were strict too.

[370] But we never had to make the choice to be different because we just were.

[371] We were so different than the other kids on our street.

[372] I think for me it was, it was less a choice and more just the continuation of difference.

[373] But what was difficult was navigating how hard that difference could be when you couldn't articulate it.

[374] And when it caused anger and not just irritation, that was the place where I wanted to assimilate.

[375] I wanted to be like them.

[376] And we were just so different because we didn't have the money.

[377] I didn't look like them.

[378] We even the way I spoke, I was too weird to even fit in because my words were different.

[379] You were above everyone else.

[380] I was just, I'll say that.

[381] You don't have to say it, but that's what was.

[382] I was in a little pocket universe, put it that way.

[383] So did you change the name of Jake to protect his anonymity, or do we keep it Jake?

[384] It was not Jake.

[385] And Jake is a composite of two or three kids.

[386] Okay.

[387] Who's Jake?

[388] Okay, so I'll bring up to speed.

[389] So Stacey, she's written a, ton of books, which is its own interesting, could be a two -hour interview, because I don't know that everyone would know that you write fiction and you've written fiction for decades, but she has a children's book out, Stacey's Extraordinary Words, which is about her first fall in love with words and then ultimately compete in a spelling bee.

[390] And then Jake is the now I know all -encompassing kind of bully that was in the mix.

[391] So that's who Jake is.

[392] I believe in Jake's redemption, so I'm I'm not going to name him soon.

[393] There we go.

[394] It's interesting because I'm reading it with my own, all my baggage, all my trapped in my own perspective, and I'm imagining you're reading it to my daughter who I'm pretty certain that the oldest one is suffering from some version of what I have.

[395] The younger one is like, you are my wife, just like a fucking wordsmith can spell everything already, learn to read in two seconds.

[396] So I'm reading it going like, oh my God, a spelling bee would be my absolute like carry moment where you dump pigs blood on me at the prom like but then i'm i'm actually seeing though i'm seeing what it is for you and then of course just thinking of what my little cornerstones were and i think it's more about that for me like my and it's what i try to tell my older daughter which is like be calm relax be patient something's going to reveal itself from this as it did for me and it sounds like for your father.

[397] But the real message for me that transcends the actual, what your book is, is like, find your cornerstone.

[398] Find that thing.

[399] Find that thing that gives you confidence and just bet everything on that thing.

[400] And you can build a whole identity out of that.

[401] Exactly.

[402] And then it's going to be a safety blanket and a respite, but it's not going to save you from harm.

[403] But it's a safe place to go when harm finds you.

[404] Yeah.

[405] Yeah.

[406] Well, there's so many ways that story is evolving in our pop culture.

[407] A couple examples I'll give you.

[408] We interview a lot of musicians, and I'm so impressed that the current crop of popular pop stars is very vocal about their mental issues, about the loneliness of being on the road, about the ego that happens.

[409] Previous rock stars didn't talk about this.

[410] They were just raging addicts in place of that.

[411] So, like, that's an evolution that I think is really cool.

[412] And I also think, like, story -wise, both the people that are now telling stories yourself included, that's a huge movement forward.

[413] And then also, they're not all victory stories, which thank fucking God, because who's going to take their first swing at bat and hit a grand slam?

[414] It's just not what happens.

[415] So I just want to applaud you that, you know, not a spoiler alert, you don't win the fucking spelling bee.

[416] The dickhead does.

[417] Jake?

[418] Jake wins.

[419] He's good.

[420] He's good.

[421] You can't take it away from him.

[422] He's a good speller.

[423] There you go.

[424] But I do just like the shift and the stories we're telling kids, which is more often than not it's failure.

[425] And again, what defines you is how you respond to it.

[426] So is that a conscious decision?

[427] Or you're just like, no, I'm just going to tell my real story.

[428] Well, I told my real story, but part of it is because I know that story doesn't get told often enough and certainly not young enough.

[429] One of the deeply biographical parts of it is that at the end, when I don't get the word right, my mom gives me this piece of candy and it's yellow, which mattered to me so much because it was yellow lifesavers, but I couldn't use the proper, yeah, I couldn't do the trademark, but it was a yellow lifesaver and it was because my mom has six children and she knew my favorite color was yellow.

[430] And so she gave me this yellow piece of candy just to like remind me that it was okay because, you know, I built it up in my head so much that when I didn't win, I mean, Monica, because your reaction was exactly my reaction.

[431] Like, this should be my triumphant moment.

[432] And I'd read, you know, all of these tales of daring do, and you do this thing, and you vanquish the enemy, and it just didn't work out that way.

[433] And plus, I was wrong in public.

[434] Like, that also.

[435] And so part of the goal for me was to not only tell the story, but to be honest about it, to be honest that, yeah, it hurts and you want to quit, and it doesn't feel good, but you've got to keep trying this stuff because that's one how you get better but also I learned I learned like I have never misspelled the word chocolate ever again I'm from the South who knew chocolate had a second O in it like no one has ever said chocolate like even the prissy people call it chocolate somebody said well didn't you see it on a candy bar I'm like who reads the label on a candy bar you see Hershey's and you go that's right and I try this in my nonfiction and even in my fiction I know anti -heroes are the sort of cause -seleb right now, but I like flawed heroes who have stumbled and who don't pretend the stumbles didn't matter.

[436] Plus, I've been really good at losing for a very long time.

[437] I was going to bring that up gracefully.

[438] It's okay.

[439] No, I fucking love it.

[440] One of the things we say on this show often, because I've been in AA for 17 years, and so I listen to dudes share every week about the many ways they fucked up that week.

[441] and I identify so much, and I learn so much from that.

[442] I don't ever learn something from somebody who tells a story of being vindicated.

[443] It's just not how I personally learn, and I don't think you can have winner as a character, but you can have not quit as a character.

[444] Like, that's character.

[445] Winner is a label that's going to disappear eventually, even if you're Mike Tyson.

[446] So I think there's just so much value in that.

[447] And one of the things I'm really blown away with you in particular is that you were in the Georgia House of Representatives, you were the minority leader, you had a gubernatorial run bid that did not go your way.

[448] For many reasons, we touched on in the LBJ primer, but your opponent, yeah, just in a nutshell, your opponent who was Secretary of the state, which is what a conflict of interest, had purged 373 ,000 voters or maybe more 673 ,000 the year before.

[449] Or there would be part of me if I were you would be like, well, I got to do it again because I got to do it in a fair.

[450] But your decision to go like, okay, you know what, I'm going to attack this from a different angle.

[451] I don't know.

[452] That's huge.

[453] I find more inspiration in that decision because my ego would have been driving that ship.

[454] So the night of the election, so we go out, we do the first speech where I say, look, we're not going to concede or declare victory because so many irregularities have happened that these.

[455] The Associated Press is refusing to call this race.

[456] But here's what I promise.

[457] I told you if I ran, I was going to make sure your votes counted.

[458] So that's what we're going to do.

[459] We're going to focus on getting your votes counted.

[460] For the next 10 days, we poured a lot of money into sending people out to make sure people's votes got counted.

[461] Lawsuits, but also knocking on doors, helping people fix their ballots.

[462] It's called curing.

[463] So they were making sure their ballots were counted.

[464] But the very first morning after that night, I sat there at this dining room table in a hotel room with my campaign team, my campaign manager, our campaign chair, and our lawyer.

[465] And we started talking through the options.

[466] And there was this moment where they said, you know, we can file a contest, depending on how this starts out, and hear the rules.

[467] And I honestly stopped the conversation because I said, look, if what we think happened, happened, if we think that this system sailed these voters in so many ways, the minute I contest this election to make myself the victim.

[468] I've lost because I don't know if it would work, but I know trying it makes this about me and not about what I said it was about.

[469] If my becoming governor is so important to me that I'm willing to basically game the system, then what am I doing here?

[470] Well, can I add, you're going to spend all your energy and all your resources and all of your momentum for the next year and a half on actually not changing the system.

[471] It'll just be changing the outcome of that, yeah.

[472] Exactly.

[473] You're probably too humble to say this.

[474] But again, purged 670 ,000 voters in the election was decided by 50 ,000 voters.

[475] So just that's a very relevant.

[476] I mean, you probably had a legit case.

[477] Yes.

[478] There were sufficient irregularities that it could have happened.

[479] But to your point, the other piece of it for me was I've lost before.

[480] At the time, I was 44, going to be 45 that year.

[481] Okay, this is the thing I want.

[482] This is something I wanted to do.

[483] But my responsibility is to remember.

[484] why did I want it?

[485] Did I want the title?

[486] And to your point about winner, like, winner is a title.

[487] Issue is, what do you do?

[488] And what can I do if this is the way I do it?

[489] But my other responsibility was, this sucks.

[490] And this is a terrible system that hurt a lot of people who do not know that they have the right to be heard.

[491] And what I talk about in Stacey's extraordinary words is really what I believe, which is that sometimes you've got to speak up, not for yourself, but you've got to up for other people.

[492] Because as bad as I may have felt with Jake, there are others who had no recourse.

[493] I mean, to you, Monica, had no sense that they had the right to be different.

[494] And so who's going to talk for them?

[495] Who's going to speak up for them?

[496] And for me, the work I've done since 2018 has been, okay, most of you aren't going to be able to raise enough money to file a suit because someone at your polling place gave you the wrong information and sent you home and didn't let you vote.

[497] But I can do something about that.

[498] And I can use my words.

[499] I can use my capacity.

[500] And if I mean what I say, these are the moments where you learn it.

[501] And I guess Dax, to kind of wrap it all together, it's going back to that beginning conversation about politicians, it's, you got to choose.

[502] This is a choice.

[503] Like every time you face these challenges of siblings who are in recovery and every day is a choice, there's never a cure.

[504] There's never an end.

[505] You are always making a choice about who you intend to be.

[506] Yeah, there's no vaccination yet, sadly.

[507] Yeah, no hydrochloric -in or endometh for it.

[508] I am on some equine tablet.

[509] There you go.

[510] They seem to be helping.

[511] We have to choose, and I want to be the person who chooses the right thing and who chooses to do the thing that you're supposed to do.

[512] I'm going to make bad choices, and I'm going to stumble and fail, and I'm going to try to justify my bad choices to myself, but I try my best to be the person I want to be.

[513] Stay tuned for more, Arm Cherokee.

[514] expert, if you dare.

[515] I do think one part of your story that's so moving, I think it's what sort of swept everyone away a little bit, is it ended up working out the way it was supposed to.

[516] Yeah, you didn't win the race, but ultimately you did much more than that.

[517] And now you're known in a much bigger and better way than you probably would have been otherwise.

[518] And it's good to see, like, failure can lead to major success that you had no idea was even on the path.

[519] We've talked about that with this show a lot.

[520] Like, I didn't come here to be a podcaster to L .A. Like, that was not even a thing.

[521] And then slowly you find, you just find what you're meant to do.

[522] If you're lucky.

[523] If you're lucky.

[524] And if you let yourself.

[525] Yeah.

[526] And sometimes you stumble into it.

[527] Like, I did not wake up and think, I want to run.

[528] run this massive voter rights.

[529] And I wanted to be governor.

[530] Like the night before, I wanted to be governor.

[531] Yeah.

[532] In that 10 days, I'm like, a guy in charge of counting the votes is probably going to win.

[533] So I'm going to go through the stages of grief.

[534] I'm going to spend a lot of time with anger because anger was a lot of fun and very cathartic.

[535] But then what am I going to do next?

[536] And so, yes, I created fair fight and then fair count and seep.

[537] And each of the things I created, I didn't know they were going to work.

[538] And I think that's the other part of it.

[539] I mean, Daxie said, you pick your thing, you pick your cornerstone.

[540] And if you pick the right cornerstone, what you find is that you can use it again and again.

[541] And it can help you even when you don't know it because I didn't know that it was going to work.

[542] I had a theory, but my title when I was in the legislature, when I got elected to leadership, I was minority leader.

[543] Literally, it's in my title, you are going to lose.

[544] You were the leader of the loser.

[545] I used to tease my calculus.

[546] I'm like, look, I have neither carrot nor stick that I can offer you.

[547] My job is to lose well.

[548] I don't have enough votes to do anything.

[549] And you get a lot of practice that way.

[550] Like, okay, I'm going to lose.

[551] Even when I ran, I told them I've been a minority for a very long time.

[552] I am really good at it.

[553] I embody this title.

[554] Exactly.

[555] Okay, so you're going to hate this.

[556] Monica hates this about me. But I do force myself at all times to really try to put on the hat of the other side so I can emotionally understand what's going on.

[557] And these are going to be very false equivalencies.

[558] but I did force myself to imagine that we found out all white nationalists worked midnights, okay?

[559] They sleep during the day, white nationalists.

[560] So I want polling stations open for white nationalists at 10 p .m. so that their vote gets counted.

[561] I wonder if I'd be on board for that.

[562] Total false equivalence that you can't compare white nationalists to minority voters.

[563] But we do recognize that when you protect voters' rights, you're largely giving franchise to minority voters.

[564] or most generally they're disproportionately excluding minority voters.

[565] So if I force myself to think of that, I'm very opposed to white nationalist voting.

[566] Would you, how am I saying this?

[567] You're on your own.

[568] Yeah, I'm really, I'm on a scary position.

[569] Yeah, a little bit.

[570] I want you to know, I want to know, like, would you fight to protect a group of voters that you despise?

[571] Yes, because I believe that the selections we make in the voting booth are parties.

[572] They are our prerogative.

[573] We vote our values or lack thereof.

[574] But the election process, the elections are nonpartisan.

[575] The process has to work for everyone.

[576] And you want to make the process so that it allows the most disadvantaged person viable access to it.

[577] And so that is why you want to make voting not happen on Tuesday in November from nine to five.

[578] Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[579] Yeah.

[580] It privileges one very specific community and leaves all these other people out.

[581] So you expand it to allow as many people as possible the ability to use the rights they are granted by virtue of their citizenship.

[582] I may not like what you do with your citizenship, but my responsibility is to defend it.

[583] And when I first launched fair fight, I would tell people the focus was on my election.

[584] There was a Republican here in my state who had to have the same election run three different times because the same broken system.

[585] that hurt all of these other people, hurt him too.

[586] And the thing is, when you break democracy, you may target me because I'm a woman of color.

[587] You may target me because I don't vote the way you like it, but you break it for everybody else.

[588] And it may take a minute.

[589] But yeah, if I truly believe in what I'm doing, yes, I'm going to make certain that every person who is entitled to vote gets to vote.

[590] But then my partisan side is going to be that I'm going to do my damnedest to make sure people who share my values actually say, succeed once you go and vote.

[591] So I have a very ACLU position on it, which is like democracy has to be above what we individually identify with party -wise.

[592] Because we're fickle.

[593] I mean, the thing is, we're fickle humans, and we are going to change our minds and our values and priorities are going to shift.

[594] And if the system is designed to give primacy to a certain set of values, then it's not democracy.

[595] Your job is to find as many people who share your values possible to participate, which is why I do the other stuff I do.

[596] But the system itself should be neutral as to what you're going to say or think when you get inside.

[597] Yeah, it's a real hard argument when you're on the other side to support voter suppression.

[598] Like it's, I don't know how they, I don't know what argument you mount.

[599] Okay, I just wanted to, I know your time is valuable, but one thing I just wanted to applaud, and it's in keeping with the other things I've been impressed with you about, is I read your Forbes article about being in debt.

[600] Yes.

[601] And I found this to be so brave for many, many reasons.

[602] But first and foremost, you're just in a situation where, as running for governor, you now have to disclose all your financial information.

[603] So it just starts with that, like, oh, here we go.

[604] I'm going to have to disclose all this.

[605] And then I love that you just took control of it.

[606] And you told the story because I have to imagine that type of conversation publicly, at least is ripe for deep humiliation.

[607] For all these reasons, the fact that even knowing your own.

[608] history that you're bringing into it, that your mom's saying, but we're the genteel ones.

[609] So there's on some level, like this fear that you'd be confirming you're worth less than other people or that it's embarrassing.

[610] I commend it so much that you would write an article about that.

[611] And then I want to kind of go through why it's not unique you'd be in that situation.

[612] Well, before we do that part, I will say this.

[613] And I don't know how you feel about it, but actually it's a movie I will watch whenever it's on.

[614] this is my political eight -mile rule from the movie eight -mile when rabbit in the last rat battle this line where he says you know now what are you going to tell them i know everything you got to say about me like there's this moment in politics where you have this pretense that the darkest part of your life will never find light that people will never know and it goes you into bad behavior because you're so busy trying to hide that you've forgotten why it is and it was my debt, but I talked about my younger brother who has grappled with drug addiction and incarceration and mental illness issues.

[615] And part of it for me was, I'm not going to let you weaponize him against me. I'm not going to let you embarrass and humiliate him and treat his struggle and his triumph and his relapses, his stumbles.

[616] I'm not going to let you turn that into fodder.

[617] And so I got his permission before I even ran.

[618] I was like, look, this is going to come up.

[619] If this is going to hurt you, I will find something, some other way to do the things I want to do.

[620] But how do you feel about me telling your story?

[621] And he gave me permission.

[622] And the same thing was true about the money.

[623] It wasn't about just me. I was going to have to reveal my parents' stories.

[624] I'm like, are you okay if I have to do this?

[625] And I went through all of my siblings.

[626] I'm like, I can't do this authentically.

[627] I can't do this effectively if I'm going to hide the parts that make me good at why I should do this.

[628] I'm a good politician because I've been poor and I know what it feels like.

[629] I'm a good politician who writes good policies because I understand what it means to worry about whether you can get a job once you've gotten out of prison and whether you have access to mental health care when you can't get Medicaid.

[630] These are things that we have to be able to talk about, but I can't talk about it if I refuse to admit that I know something about it.

[631] Finances are so intrinsically linked to status, particularly in this country.

[632] And so it's just courage to go like, yes, this has been a conventional way to further.

[633] demote my status in the society, but I'm going to take that away from you, and I'm going to tell you about it, and I'm going to explain why it is this way.

[634] And one of the things, and the thing you wrote, which is horrific, which is in 2016, women, they're at 80 % of what their male counterparts are making as the gender gap.

[635] And then further to that, if you're a black woman, it's going to be 40%.

[636] If you're a Latina, it's going to be 50%.

[637] And so I just want any person who's been listening to you speak, could ever construct an argument that you might deserve 60 % of what I earn is ghastly.

[638] It's insane.

[639] And then you further break down the fact that, yes, you're going to be someone who took on way more college debt than your average person.

[640] You're also going to be someone who is going to send money back immediately to your family.

[641] I count myself lucky enough to be in that group, too, by the way.

[642] There's going to be nine other elements involved in this thing.

[643] and fuck all y 'all for thinking that speaks poorly to me as a human.

[644] I mean, look, you know this.

[645] When you start to make anything, it's not that I made money, it's we made money.

[646] The first time you got a big paycheck, you didn't get that check.

[647] Y 'all got that check.

[648] Yes, yes, yes.

[649] I know you don't use y 'all in Detroit.

[650] No, I use y 'all because it's a perfect catch -all.

[651] There are all these obligations that come with success, and we have this bifurcated notion that it's before success and after.

[652] I'm like, no, it is a journey.

[653] And it is a journey where there are detours, there are car crashes.

[654] It is a terrible ride.

[655] And part of my responsibility, and I appreciate you attributing it to courage, but you can't fix problems you can't talk about.

[656] And it's hard to fix problems you don't understand.

[657] And so if you want someone who can help you, I tend to look for someone who understands my problem, not because it's academic, but because it's real.

[658] And I decided Forbes is a good place to talk about it because people with money should know about it.

[659] Yeah.

[660] You're absolutely right.

[661] You don't need to write that in the LA Weekly.

[662] Those folks already are hip to what you're going through.

[663] I don't want to make too definitive of a statement.

[664] But I will say, shame is a power you give to people.

[665] And once you declare this doesn't give me shame, the people that want to shame you, they have no ammo anymore.

[666] And that can be the thing you wrote about your finances.

[667] That can be me going, yeah, I'm a fucking addict.

[668] And, you know, sometimes I'm a scumbag.

[669] Guess what?

[670] It's over.

[671] When I hear you say, yeah, this isn't going to shame me. That's how you divorce yourself from it.

[672] And I just help that transcends every conversation, which is like, we're coming out of the shame shadow and talking about it.

[673] Yeah.

[674] I like you.

[675] Well, thank you.

[676] I like that.

[677] I appreciate that.

[678] That is a high compliment.

[679] Because I've heard what you said about people you don't like.

[680] The group is getting smaller and smaller as I evolved.

[681] Yeah.

[682] Yeah, it's all my issues.

[683] I hate rich people.

[684] We're working on that.

[685] So I hope everyone gets Stacey's extraordinary words, and I particularly hope anyone who's got a daughter gets it.

[686] And I further hope anyone who's got any kid that might feel like there's any reason that they would feel less than would get this book.

[687] And latch on to the main theme of like, yeah, find your superpower and nurture it and relish in it and define yourself by it.

[688] What were you going to say, Monica?

[689] No, I just want to, one last thing, because she'll kill me if I don't, but my aunt who lives in Georgia, she really rallied around what you were doing and you.

[690] And I know so many people who are in that same boat and you gave a lot of people purpose and, like, a path.

[691] And it's really special.

[692] And people, I think, gained so much from it that you'll never know.

[693] So on her behalf and all of our behalf, thank you.

[694] Thank you.

[695] Well, please give her my best.

[696] What's her name?

[697] Sharma.

[698] Sharma.

[699] Sharmala.

[700] Please give her my best and tell her thank you.

[701] I will.

[702] Well, Stacey, you write a book every couple months, so I'm assuming you'll be back.

[703] Yeah, come back.

[704] I hope you'll come back.

[705] I hope you'll love that.

[706] And I would love, I mean, I'm vibing you.

[707] I want to have like a coffee if I'm in Atlanta.

[708] I don't want to go too far, but just know, I dig what you're doing.

[709] So thanks for giving us your time.

[710] Thank you guys.

[711] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[712] Hi.

[713] How are you?

[714] I'm good.

[715] How are you?

[716] I'm good.

[717] Let me start by this.

[718] How was your trip home?

[719] Trip home was good.

[720] I got to go to Athens.

[721] I got to go to my favorite restaurant there.

[722] Last resort.

[723] Shout out last resort.

[724] Bought a T -shirt.

[725] Bought Callie a T -shirt.

[726] But they didn't have the dessert.

[727] You were desiring?

[728] Is that the case?

[729] Yeah.

[730] Yeah.

[731] This is one of these stories I love.

[732] This is a sad story.

[733] Well, yeah, so don't leave out any details because this is the exact kind of story, you know, I love of yours.

[734] So the whole goal was to get this strawberry cake, which is my favorite strawberry cake.

[735] It's from Cecilia's bakery in Athens.

[736] It's the best cake in the whole world.

[737] Very, very wet cake.

[738] Oh, it's a moist cake.

[739] Very.

[740] And it's just a delicious restaurant.

[741] Whole family went.

[742] We were going to go a little early because I wanted to go to the bookstore.

[743] Can I pause you for just half a second?

[744] Mm -hmm.

[745] So often our favorite restaurants from when we were younger, you know, we've now moved to L .A., and we've been spoiled, and we've got to eat at some pretty nice restaurants, and then you go home, and sometimes you go to your old favorite restaurant, and you realize, oh, I think a lot of this stuff is microwaved.

[746] Exactly.

[747] That's always the fear.

[748] Yeah.

[749] Was that the case?

[750] No. It's a really, really good restaurant.

[751] Hold on one second.

[752] Okay.

[753] Yeah.

[754] Take your time.

[755] You really wound up.

[756] For the listeners who can't see you, you have a lot of cables around you, and you seem to be almost like someone broke into your house and maybe roped you up.

[757] I haven't cleaned in a bit.

[758] Pretty wrecked.

[759] So anyway, so I really wanted to go to the bookstore because I thought there was going to be some cool new shirts for the game, the big game, the national championship game.

[760] Right, which I'm, I'm super embarrassed to admit, but I noticed from one of your posts they must have either gone really far, or is it already over?

[761] Are they in the playoffs?

[762] Did they win?

[763] What happened?

[764] It was Monday was the national championship.

[765] They played Bama and they won.

[766] No!

[767] Yeah, it was a really big deal.

[768] Huge.

[769] Wait, while you were there or since you were home?

[770] I ended up coming home a little early.

[771] So you weren't there for the big win?

[772] So I wasn't.

[773] But it was so exciting and so exciting to see.

[774] Like my friends chat from home We're on a WhatsApp chat And like everyone is just like doing play by play Sending all these pictures And it was it was really fun for us How many times have the dogs won The National Championship?

[775] Never or once Okay because I didn't want to be mean But I just I don't really associate The dogs with being like you know Notre Dame or something No and they are always good But they always choke They're chokers.

[776] Oh, we like that.

[777] The last time we played was in...

[778] I lived here, maybe it was 2018.

[779] They went to the national championship and also against Bama and lost, choked.

[780] Oops.

[781] And Callie and I had gone to a bar to watch it and it was too crowded and stinky.

[782] Anyway, you know what?

[783] I think E from Entourage, I'm pretty sure he owned that bar anyway.

[784] So that's a fun piece of info.

[785] Which one's E?

[786] Oh, you went to fat slims?

[787] No, it wasn't fat slims.

[788] It was called like goalies or something like that.

[789] Oh, okay.

[790] Because one of the entourage fellows owns that, like, sandwich shop at the corner of Highland and Fountain called like Fatsos or Fat Slam or Fatty Fadi 2x4.

[791] That's a bad name.

[792] Well, I didn't name the restaurant.

[793] I'm just saying that there's, do you know what I'm talking?

[794] about?

[795] I don't.

[796] You and I ordered from there one time and they put like French fries on the sandwiches and other other sandwiches are in the sandwich.

[797] I was not there for that, but I do remember you guys talking about it.

[798] Maybe it's E, maybe E owns a lot of establishments.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Anywho, flash forward, I wanted to go because I figured there'd be some sort of great t -shirt.

[801] Yeah.

[802] Commemorating the upcoming event.

[803] Then my dad was lost and, you know, You know, it was a whole, it was a whole to do.

[804] He was like, I'm not coming in.

[805] And we were like, you can't drive around.

[806] You don't know where you're going.

[807] Luckily, my brother was there and he was, we shared a head space, which was good.

[808] And then, um.

[809] Well, you and your brother are bonding more.

[810] So it's kind of fun to team up on poor oldishoke.

[811] Yeah, it is.

[812] Yeah.

[813] Yeah.

[814] Yeah, my mom got mad at us a few times for us laughing at her.

[815] Oh.

[816] Wait, at her or your dad?

[817] At her.

[818] Oh, no, why were we laughing at Nourmelah?

[819] She did some silly stuff.

[820] Okay, embarrassing stuff?

[821] Yeah.

[822] Can you tell us any of the things, or would it be too embarrassing for her?

[823] I mean, it wasn't even, like, she was just, like, rambling on a story and, like, wouldn't stop, wouldn't stop.

[824] And then my brother and I kind of looked at each other, and then we laughed, and then she was, she said we were nuts.

[825] And then, you know, you know how it goes.

[826] Sure.

[827] Can I ask another quick question?

[828] Because, again, I don't want to be spared a single detail of this.

[829] I know how you feel about farting in public.

[830] It's not your thing.

[831] No. So I guess what I'm asking is, you know, in my family growing up, if we took a long car ride together, everyone's just farting up a storm and it smelled and, you know, that was just my family.

[832] And I have a hunch that's not your family?

[833] No. I didn't smell any farts on the ride there or back.

[834] Not even your dad.

[835] Because the patriarch, that's what the dad earns.

[836] No, actually, he would be the least to do it.

[837] Yeah, that's why we love him.

[838] I guess it's modeling.

[839] Well, I bet in his simulation, he checked the box like, no gas.

[840] Why not?

[841] I don't want gas.

[842] He doesn't have it.

[843] I've never smelt a fart of his in my whole life.

[844] Yeah, and I can say the same about you, so I think they checked that box.

[845] But I've smelled my mom's farts.

[846] She'll be mad at me that I said that, but I have.

[847] Mom farts smell very specific.

[848] I think everyone can relate.

[849] You know, because sometimes we'll be laying in bed at night, and there's a, there's a, there's an aroma in there and generally the girls will immediately go like if it's mom they know it's mom they'll say mom you know i think mine's generally smells roughly like a porterhouse you know like thick well yeah just like um wholesome and robust i guess maybe yeah this anyway anyway mom parts anyway great name for a podcast by the way great name so So we did park and we did go into the bookstore and there were a couple shirts left.

[850] They aren't designed all that well, but I still got one.

[851] And then we went to dinner.

[852] It was lovely.

[853] It was delicious.

[854] I had a red pepper and feta palm soup for an app.

[855] It was so good.

[856] And then I had short ribs.

[857] Oh, so it is a really nice restaurant.

[858] Yeah.

[859] They're offering short ribs.

[860] Yeah, it's really, really good.

[861] How are you eating there in college?

[862] I only like once or twice for a special occasion.

[863] Oh, like a homecoming type thing.

[864] Yeah, that's high school.

[865] But you know what I mean?

[866] Yeah, for special occasions.

[867] But, you know, money there's different.

[868] It's much cheaper, but it's still, yeah, it still would have been a lot for us at the time, but we didn't go very much.

[869] Anyway, the whole point is this cake.

[870] That's the purpose of the trip.

[871] It's very important.

[872] It's a strawberry cake.

[873] The first thing I did when I sat down As I said, hey, can you set a slice of the strawberry cake aside?

[874] Yeah, you're already panicked.

[875] It might run out while you're there.

[876] Yeah.

[877] And he said, oh, I don't think we have that cake in today.

[878] And I, my jaw just dropped with sadness.

[879] Oh, my God.

[880] And let's just tell people, like, you've driven to Athens.

[881] How far is that from doing?

[882] It's an hour.

[883] Yeah, that's a hike.

[884] It's an hour.

[885] A whole hour, you're just thinking about nibbling on that, what is hell?

[886] The whole time.

[887] I was so excited.

[888] And I was trying to figure out, like, then do I get a couple, bring some back?

[889] Maybe I'll try to bring some back to L .A. I don't even know.

[890] Right.

[891] Freeze it maybe.

[892] Real game plan.

[893] Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[894] Use it as a facial.

[895] Who knows?

[896] The options are endless.

[897] I just kind of stared at him and he was like, well, I can check.

[898] I can double check in the back.

[899] And I was like, okay.

[900] I hope you have it.

[901] And then he returned and said They didn't have it But they have others And then he's like, you know, listing bunch And he's like, the Trace Leche's cake Has strawberries on it And I was like, ugh, that's not What I want.

[902] That's not what I want.

[903] I want a bucket of strawberry water in my mouth In the form of a cake.

[904] You read the list.

[905] Lots of good sounding cakes, but they were all making me angry, you know, hearing more and more and not strawberry.

[906] Yeah, they have.

[907] so many.

[908] So many.

[909] Then he circled back to Trey Sletches and I was like, okay, fine, he really wants me to have this to Tres Lachase.

[910] So we ordered a slice of that and a slice of the chocolate.

[911] And the Trey Sletches was so good.

[912] Oh, oh.

[913] It was a big twist.

[914] Oh, I'll say.

[915] I feel like I'm watching Sixth Sense right now.

[916] It was a huge pop -out, huge reveal, no one saw it coming.

[917] And in fact, I was kind of like, this is what the strawberry cake tastes like.

[918] Like, it's the same.

[919] I never thought anything could replace a strawberry cake, but it did.

[920] It sounds to me like you had a case of clear Pepsi.

[921] What's that I mean?

[922] Well, you know, like, if you want a Pepsi, you want a Pepsi.

[923] And then they came out with Clear Pepsi.

[924] Do you remember that?

[925] No, no. You don't remember Clear Pepsi?

[926] No. Okay, so, Monica, they came out with Clear Pepsi.

[927] Like, look how exciting this is.

[928] It tastes the same.

[929] It's Pepsi.

[930] And everyone was like, absolutely fucking not.

[931] Oh, they weren't happy about it.

[932] Oh, it was a disaster.

[933] No one wanted clear Pepsi.

[934] They just like the brown Pepsi.

[935] That's right.

[936] So you were like eating this thing that it sounds like was the exact same thing, but it's in a different, you know, shape.

[937] And you're like, this is clear Pepsi.

[938] I just want the brown Pepsi.

[939] We shouldn't even be talking about Pepsi.

[940] I realize that because the story is in Atlanta, but you know what I'm saying.

[941] I know.

[942] It's kind of bad luck what you just did.

[943] But that's okay.

[944] I can't believe you don't remember clear Pepsi because I want to say Saturday Night Live had a real good time with it.

[945] I think they, like, had a few fake commercials where it was like clear gravy.

[946] Like all these things you would not want to be clear.

[947] Like, think how bad like a clear grilled cheese sandwich would be.

[948] Or like clear pizza.

[949] And it just tasted exactly like pizza.

[950] Do I want anything to be clear that's food?

[951] No, just Naxima.

[952] Vaporub.

[953] Vicks vapor rub.

[954] Vicks vapor, medicinal, liberal arts education.

[955] Hellenic studies.

[956] Can I ask, was the leche actually as good as the one you wanted?

[957] It was.

[958] And I was shocked.

[959] I was shocked to my core.

[960] It kind of changed the way I looked at life.

[961] I was just going to say this is a universal lesson.

[962] Yeah, you think it's one in a million, but it's not.

[963] And I also think for you and I, who has.

[964] have, we come by this, honestly, through different means.

[965] When you find something that you know makes you feel good and safe, it gets, for me at least, it gets put in a vault of like most important things in my life.

[966] I know when I have this thing, I'm going to feel good.

[967] And it takes on a value that's much bigger than moist cake.

[968] Exactly.

[969] And also the Trisletches cake was also so wet.

[970] Oh, oh my God.

[971] Yeah.

[972] It was just sprayed.

[973] It was crazy.

[974] It was crazy.

[975] I was like, this is the new best cake I've ever eaten.

[976] I also had to just say, like, it's kind of the bakery.

[977] The bakery is just incredible.

[978] Still best bakery in the world, in my opinion.

[979] Okay, but the story is not over.

[980] So I was so satisfied and so happy, but then the next day I was like, you know what?

[981] I'm going to order that cake and I'm going to go pick it up.

[982] Because the different bakery is making it and giving it to the restaurant.

[983] Exactly.

[984] There we go.

[985] So I ordered a strawberry cake.

[986] Oh.

[987] And I drove to Athens in the morning and picked it up.

[988] I bought two, actually.

[989] And then I drove it back and I had a slice of it and it was incredible as usual.

[990] But I didn't think like, oh, yeah, this is so much better than the Trace Leche.

[991] So I was like, oh, yeah, this is that and I love that.

[992] Yeah.

[993] But, you know, you know, it's just good to know.

[994] there's always a Trey Slate's cake around the corner.

[995] There is.

[996] Okay, now I want to tell you a couple stories.

[997] One made me think of it, which is you said money is different there as it is.

[998] So when Eric and Aaron and I checked into this hotel in Playa Del Carmen, which was a really, really nice hotel.

[999] So I think I was open to the notion that things were going to be way too expensive.

[1000] Mm -hmm.

[1001] While we were waiting for our room, we had three Diet Coke.

[1002] and then when I signed the bill, it was $300.

[1003] What?

[1004] And I thought, oh, boy, these Diet Coke are...

[1005] Oh, my God.

[1006] Are $100 a piece or whatever.

[1007] I'm sure you can guess where this is going.

[1008] It was in pesos, and the conversion rate was like times 20.

[1009] So it was really only...

[1010] It was only 15 bucks.

[1011] That's still kind of a lot?

[1012] But at a resort, $5 for a Diet Coke delivered, like, it's not...

[1013] out of the realm of...

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] 300 would have been really...

[1016] You would have had to come home.

[1017] What would you have been able to do?

[1018] Exactly.

[1019] We would just been like, we're not playing this game.

[1020] But that wasn't the case at all.

[1021] Okay, and then the second funny thing I want to tell you about Mexico was, I didn't know this.

[1022] And maybe you did.

[1023] But Russians, their holiday, like our Christmas break and all that into New Year's, there's apparently is January 1 through the 7th.

[1024] That's when all the Russians have their time off.

[1025] So the resort was 100 % Russian and then Eric and Aaron and I, which isn't the easiest thing to know immediately because they're Russian.

[1026] They just look like American tourists to me, right?

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] Not unlike the situation I put you and I in in England or I told that guy he had beautiful eyes.

[1029] Oh, no. Oh, this one's worse.

[1030] Oh, no. Yeah, so this is the first night, and we haven't figured out where the gym is yet.

[1031] And the place is on 620 acres.

[1032] So there's like, you know, you got to take a golf cart everywhere, ride bicycles.

[1033] So we're like, we're trying to figure out where the gym is so we can get to it.

[1034] And lo and behold, right next to us at the table was this attractive couple.

[1035] The man was conservatively 270 pounds of muscle.

[1036] Shaved head.

[1037] His wife or girlfriend looked like a Euro model.

[1038] And so I thought, well, that motherfucker knows where the gym is, right?

[1039] Context clues.

[1040] Right.

[1041] And again, I haven't learned the thing that everyone there's Russian.

[1042] We haven't learned that yet.

[1043] And so I kind of try to get their attention as they're leaving the table, but they don't hear me or whatever.

[1044] Well, what it is is there's a language barrier that I'm unaware of.

[1045] So I then get up and I walk over to them and I said, hey, excuse me, I know you know where the gym is.

[1046] And I slap the guy in the shoulder.

[1047] He's enormous.

[1048] But he does not speak English, I come to find out.

[1049] And I'm just a dude who's grabbing him.

[1050] And his Russian girlfriend or bride in very broken English said, oh, he is not working out on vacation time.

[1051] And I was like, oh.

[1052] Okay.

[1053] And then he's just staring at me like, Get your fucking hand off.

[1054] I'm going to punch you into the water.

[1055] Oh, my God.

[1056] And Eric and Aaron are watching this entire exchange.

[1057] And it just, you know, it just went terribly.

[1058] And it really did look like the guy for a minute.

[1059] It was just going to knock me up my ass.

[1060] Oh, wow.

[1061] But then we figured out everyone was Russian, and that became its own interesting thing.

[1062] Yeah, that was unique.

[1063] I've never, ever taken a vacation with 100 % Russians.

[1064] That's a novel and proprietary experience, for sure.

[1065] Incredibly.

[1066] Incredibly rare.

[1067] I can always tell, and this is based on having lived in Santa Monica for 10 years, Germans love Santa Monica in August.

[1068] Germans cannot stay away from Santa Monica in August.

[1069] Really?

[1070] Yeah, so if you go to the promenade in Santa Monica in August, it's virtually all German.

[1071] And I was so used to that over 10 years.

[1072] And I can really pinpoint the way they dress.

[1073] There's just like these little clues that they're German.

[1074] You know, they don't wear sneakers.

[1075] There's all these little things.

[1076] But I got really.

[1077] really good at, like, recognizing German tourists.

[1078] And, you know, the Russian tourists, they, too, had a look that we eventually kind of really cobbled together and everything.

[1079] So it was pretty fun.

[1080] Yeah, I was going to ask, what did you, like, learn about the culture?

[1081] They don't, like, wear their ties backwards and stuff.

[1082] They wear their ties backwards.

[1083] Okay, I had heard that.

[1084] Yeah, and they wear their shoes on their hands.

[1085] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1086] All that's obvious, but yeah.

[1087] Which is why they can only eat pizza.

[1088] Sure.

[1089] Right.

[1090] So, you know, you start to see these little signs.

[1091] My brother just texted me, ding, ding, ding.

[1092] He's in Russia?

[1093] Well, no, I'd just be talking about my brother.

[1094] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1095] Oh, he got his shoes.

[1096] I ordered him some shoes for Christmas that he picked out dunks.

[1097] He's not a Jordan's guy, he said.

[1098] That's why?

[1099] I know, he's just not, and that's okay.

[1100] He's him.

[1101] He picked out dunks that are really cool, and they came.

[1102] I'm so happy.

[1103] Also, he started his real big boy job.

[1104] He's a big boy now.

[1105] Well, okay, that's the other update I want because you've really kind of been starting to bond with your brother a lot, which I love.

[1106] And so I just was wondering if on this trip there was even more of that.

[1107] Well, yeah, the laughing at my mom's farts.

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] And not her farts, but just laughing at her.

[1110] And then, yeah, he's about to start his jobs.

[1111] We were, you know, talked about that and that and the shoes.

[1112] You know, that's pretty much it.

[1113] Yeah.

[1114] pretty much covered it.

[1115] But yeah, it's nice.

[1116] You got me the coolest Jordans on planet Earth for Christmas.

[1117] People should know.

[1118] Well, yeah, but they haven't come.

[1119] Doesn't matter.

[1120] You still did.

[1121] I'm actually nervous because something went really wrong.

[1122] There's two charges for them.

[1123] Uh -oh.

[1124] On my credit card.

[1125] And I also have zero shoes.

[1126] So I don't know what's going on, but I'm figuring it out with the BM, the bowel movement.

[1127] The Better Business Bureau?

[1128] Yes, I had the thought to purchase you some really cool shoes recommended by Husson.

[1129] Who's the shoe god?

[1130] He is the shoe god.

[1131] I don't want to toss shade or whatever it is that you call it.

[1132] The kids call it.

[1133] But, you know, Kristen and I both, I had this idea.

[1134] We were both not smart enough to talk to each other about it.

[1135] And Hussein sent us the same list.

[1136] of shoes and her and I got you the same pair.

[1137] You might have three pairs at the end of this.

[1138] I don't know.

[1139] Well, but I think you thought I was just trying to comfort you, but I was not.

[1140] There's nothing I want more than two pairs of those shoes.

[1141] Yeah.

[1142] Like, they're not going to make those again, and I'm going to want to wear them for the rest of my life, and I'm going to wear a pair out.

[1143] Like, I'm thrilled to have a backup pair.

[1144] They're fucking gorgeous.

[1145] They're really cool.

[1146] shoes.

[1147] I got you a pair of shoes, too.

[1148] You did.

[1149] They're gorgeous.

[1150] No, yeah, they are.

[1151] They're pink.

[1152] No, the ones you got me are much more exclusive, much nicer, more expensive, higher -end, more exclusive, fancier.

[1153] Limited.

[1154] Master's degree.

[1155] No, they didn't have those in girls.

[1156] My kind?

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] But there's no girls or boys.

[1159] But I mean, they didn't have small sizes.

[1160] Oh, your size.

[1161] Okay, okay, okay.

[1162] It's really fun to go on.

[1163] or whatever one you use and make your filter most expensive to least, there are many, many pairs of Jordans that are $90 ,000.

[1164] I can't believe it.

[1165] I cannot believe it.

[1166] But it's really weird because I'll think, oh, my God, they're all worth that.

[1167] But then I'll go into it and I'll realize it's actually like certain sizes are that.

[1168] Like 13 and a half Jordans, you might be sitting on a million dollars.

[1169] Really?

[1170] Well, not a million, but for whatever reason, that seems to be the size that gets crazy expensive.

[1171] That's weird.

[1172] I wonder why, because of how many people wear a 13 and a half?

[1173] Well, what I have to imagine is that Nike, if they're smart, they know exactly what percentage of the marketplace wears a 7 and 8 to 9 to 10.

[1174] And then they probably make them accordingly.

[1175] And they probably only make a couple 113 and a halfs.

[1176] If they're doing a limited run of Jordans, they're not going to.

[1177] to make the same amount of 13 and a half as they're going to make tens.

[1178] Yeah, you're right.

[1179] But then with that logic, same should be for me because I'm a five.

[1180] I know, you're a tiny little women's.

[1181] Little baby.

[1182] Yeah, zero men.

[1183] A four boy.

[1184] So I should be sitting on some dough too.

[1185] Let's hope.

[1186] So this was Stacy Abrams.

[1187] I loved her so much.

[1188] Now, she was a person that you and Kristen, have been obsessed with for a few years and I've had kind of little knowledge of and I almost think I do this really gross thing which is like if other people know a lot about something and I don't I'll just decide I'm not going to know about it like I can catch up to these two like they love this person and I'm just going to bail out and I mean boy did I love her it's like no wonder you guys are obsessed with her she is a bad motherfucker such a special person has made so much actual change in the country vis -a -vis the world, I guess.

[1189] Like, it's so rare to be able to pinpoint change like that to one human.

[1190] And she did it.

[1191] It's, oh, I love her.

[1192] This is a dangerous compliment for me to attempt to give.

[1193] I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off, but as we have found interviewing women so often, there's a tendency to kind of maybe negate what you just said, Or, you know, there's just all these cultural things that women have been...

[1194] Fall into some bad traps that we've been told we have to do.

[1195] Yeah, saddled with.

[1196] Like, if you're really smart, you've got a downplay.

[1197] So you'll be like, yeah, it's 357 ,000 cubic inches.

[1198] I think, or whatever.

[1199] I think you were the one that pointed it out originally, and then I started becoming aware of it.

[1200] And I just was so aware when I was talking to her, like, this is a woman who knows exactly who she is, and she knows her value.

[1201] I just loved it.

[1202] I agree.

[1203] She's very clear.

[1204] The people that walk the walk have a different vibe.

[1205] I agree.

[1206] I agree.

[1207] And she's, since we recorded this, that should be known because we recorded it a while ago.

[1208] I'm sure people know that she's running for governor of Georgia.

[1209] Oh, she is.

[1210] Mm -hmm.

[1211] So that's happening.

[1212] She posted about the dogs.

[1213] I was just going to say big year for Georgia.

[1214] Yeah.

[1215] National Championship.

[1216] Okay, I have a question you won't want to answer.

[1217] All right.

[1218] Did you get recognized in Athens?

[1219] Once, yes.

[1220] I like that.

[1221] I like that a lot.

[1222] The little girl that went to University of Georgia.

[1223] It was the girl selling me the t -shirt at last resort.

[1224] It had been better if the person who didn't give you the cake knew because maybe they would have driven over to that.

[1225] I agree.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] I agree.

[1228] And really, there's not really any facts, of course.

[1229] because, as you said, as you pointed out, she's so factual.

[1230] But I did want to just call out her organization just as like a double.

[1231] Double hit.

[1232] It's called Fair Fight, the national...

[1233] F -A -I -R.

[1234] Uh -huh.

[1235] F -A -I -R -Fight .com.

[1236] National Voting Rights Organization rooted in Georgia.

[1237] If you want to check it out, go to fairfight .com.

[1238] If you don't like fair fights, you know, you're a jerk, you know.

[1239] You can get your own URL.

[1240] Unfairfight .com.

[1241] Right, call Unfair fights.

[1242] That would be an interesting website.

[1243] Be like a grizzly bear fighting, like a raccoon or something.

[1244] Oh, yeah.

[1245] I think I would like that because I bet sometimes, you know, the underdog will win.

[1246] Ding, ding, ding, ding, Georgia.

[1247] Yes.

[1248] Bull, go dogs.

[1249] Sick them.

[1250] Oh, my God, there's how many sayings are there?

[1251] Sick him.

[1252] Say, go dog, sick him.

[1253] Ooh, who, who, who, who.

[1254] That's what you do.

[1255] That's what you do.

[1256] Had to.

[1257] What you do it one more time?

[1258] Nope, that's the only time we're going to hear me do it.

[1259] It's not the only time you're going to hear me do it.

[1260] So I go, go.

[1261] All right, so I go.

[1262] Let me give it a shot.

[1263] You ready?

[1264] Okay.

[1265] Go dogs, sick them.

[1266] That's pretty good.

[1267] The go is much longer.

[1268] Yeah, I didn't have the cadence.

[1269] Cadence, right, for sure.

[1270] They teach you this at orientation there.

[1271] They teach it to you.

[1272] Well, they should.

[1273] There's class on it.

[1274] There's a Go Dogs 101.

[1275] That's a liberal arts education.

[1276] Oh, man. Go dog!

[1277] Sickham!

[1278] That's better.

[1279] That's better.

[1280] Sickum was a little too long, but okay, I just, I think that that's as far as we're going to get for today.

[1281] Maybe we'll try it again next time.

[1282] Okay, can I tell you one joke that I made?

[1283] I think I've already told you this, but this very rare thing happened.

[1284] It'll never happen again in my lifetime.

[1285] Bree and I went to a UCLA Bruin game when I was a student there.

[1286] We sat in that student section.

[1287] You know the whole story we had, we had like smuggled all this alcohol in because we were both dirt bags, and we realized none of the other students at UCLA drink at those games.

[1288] Really?

[1289] This is a side note.

[1290] That is weird.

[1291] Yes, I know.

[1292] Because in Michigan, man, the whole point is just to get fucking hammered in the parking lot.

[1293] Yeah.

[1294] Before you get in, you're already hammered.

[1295] And then normally you bring a flask or something.

[1296] That's right.

[1297] And so none of that was happening except for Brin.

[1298] I had about a case of beer off.

[1299] A fifth of whiskey.

[1300] But at any rate, it was against Fresno.

[1301] And mind you, I actually have a high opinion of Fresno.

[1302] But in this moment, they were the opponents, right?

[1303] Sure.

[1304] And so I don't know how this happened, but it just so happened.

[1305] You know, every now and again, it'll get really quiet at an event.

[1306] And I think the Rose Bowl is like 90 ,000 people.

[1307] But somehow it got so quiet the moment I screamed, I'd tell you to go to hell, but you're already from Fresno.

[1308] And I promise you at least 15 ,000 people.

[1309] People heard that, and there was an enormous round of laughter.

[1310] It just, nothing's ever timed out so perfect in my life.

[1311] Oh, my God.

[1312] And it kind of saved the whole day for us because we were bummed nose partying with us.

[1313] And also, you got really into the game, I guess, if you were shouting that kind of stuff out.

[1314] Well, no, I didn't even know what I was watching.

[1315] I just was trying to insult the opponents.

[1316] I figured I could do that.

[1317] Oh, my God.

[1318] That's hilarious.

[1319] And truth but told, I have been yelling many, many things about Fresno.

[1320] It just so happened that there was this crazy silence right when I did that.

[1321] Sim.

[1322] It was wild, yeah.

[1323] That's funny.

[1324] Oh, man. If you're at that game, I love Fresno, and I don't feel that way at all about Fresno.

[1325] No, we love Fresno.

[1326] Great place to raise a family and start a business and get going on that liberal arts education.

[1327] That's it, because that's all the fackies.

[1328] That's everything.

[1329] That's everything.

[1330] Have you thought about any new goals this year for the podcast?

[1331] Other than like declared goals like more shows, there's a show we have in the works that I think is going to be really, really, two shows that I think are going to be really, really, really cool.

[1332] One of them, I think, already has the ability for a second season.

[1333] Wait, Monica and Jess?

[1334] No, Monica and Jess is happening.

[1335] Yeah, yeah.

[1336] We made that very clear.

[1337] I think we're going to look at applications this week.

[1338] Great.

[1339] So I think that'll all be really fun.

[1340] I think there's going to be a lot of stuff to do this year, which will be good.

[1341] Do you have any goals for the show?

[1342] I do.

[1343] I'd like to figure out how to occasionally interact with people.

[1344] Because when I did Chelsea's show, Chelsea Handler's podcast, I really, really loved interacting with the people who listen to her show, and I would really love to interact with the people that listen to our show.

[1345] So we tried it once, for whatever reason, technically we didn't do a good job.

[1346] But I'd like to do that.

[1347] Yeah, I like that.

[1348] I really want to do a series somehow about homeless.

[1349] in L .A. I haven't figured out my exact approach to that, but I certainly want to do that very badly.

[1350] I like that a lot.

[1351] I don't know.

[1352] I just want to get better.

[1353] Me too.

[1354] Yeah.

[1355] Me too.

[1356] Well, I love you.

[1357] Love you.

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