S2: E8 - One Step At A Time

[0] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[1] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[2] We cloned his voice using AI.

[3] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[4] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[5] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[6] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[7] As I track down clues.

[8] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[9] Hunting.

[10] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[11] Robert Fisher.

[12] Do you recognize my voice?

[13] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday.

[14] on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[15] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[16] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[17] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[18] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[19] Listen to the podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast, weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[20] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[21] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[22] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[23] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[24] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[25] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[26] Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners.

[27] Please take care while listening.

[28] Hi, all, we have some exciting news to share.

[29] ABC Studios has turned betrayal season one into a documentary.

[30] You will get to meet the people involved in season one, and you'll hear from people who have never spoken before.

[31] And you get to see where the whole story took place.

[32] We are so proud and excited to share it with you all.

[33] You can start streaming it on Hulu on July 11th.

[34] But now, let's jump into the episode.

[35] Do an internet search any day of the week for people who were arrested for possessing, producing, or downloading child sexual abuse material.

[36] You'll find something like this.

[37] Homeland Security investigators say they arrested this Walt Disney World employee on child pornography, charges.

[38] Forty -one -year -olds facing three counts of distributing child pornography.

[39] Elementary school teacher is also a youth past, so accused of using a cell phone to commit sex crimes involving children.

[40] Police officers behind bars this morning charges possession of child pornography.

[41] A stunning turn for a mayor in his second term in office, police say he both possessed and distributed images and videos of young boys.

[42] wilds were distributing child pornography on various social media platforms.

[43] I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal.

[44] Episode 8.

[45] One step at a time.

[46] It's been about a year since Ashley Linton first wrote into us at Betrayal pod at gmail .com.

[47] That's how this all started.

[48] One email, then another, and another.

[49] That opened my eyes to the crime of sexual exploitation of children that's happening everywhere.

[50] And the shocking reality that those involved are community leaders, friends, neighbors, loved ones, and partners.

[51] Three courageous women, Ashley, Mandy, and Erin, told us their story so that we might better understand the reality of what our families and our kids are.

[52] facing.

[53] Now here's something I haven't told you.

[54] A lot of people urged us not to tell this story.

[55] They said nobody wants to hear about this topic.

[56] It's a loser for a podcast.

[57] Some were friends and some are in the business.

[58] But you've proved them wrong.

[59] You stayed with us.

[60] My boss backed us.

[61] And IHeart said, yes, we believe in this.

[62] Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

[63] This is the last episode of the regular season.

[64] So I wanted to go back to the women who made this whole thing happen.

[65] I spoke with Ashley who lives outside Salt Lake City, Utah, and Erin who is near Fresno, California.

[66] Both took the bold step of turning their husbands into law enforcement upon finding CSAM in their homes, knowing they were ending life as they knew it.

[67] Erin lived with her husband, Joel, and her two kids outside of a military base in Texas.

[68] She fled to California after her discovery.

[69] Ashley's husband Jason was also filming her daughter Avea and was ultimately charged with foyerism.

[70] Now that they have been a part of the series and have gone public, we wanted to reconnect.

[71] So guys, I wanted us to get together today to talk about the season and see how you guys are doing after hearing the majority of the episodes.

[72] I mean, you both kind of had very similar experiences, like even down to calling your brother -in -laws that are in law enforcement.

[73] So I guess I'll start with Erin.

[74] Aaron, what was it like hearing Ashley's story?

[75] It felt super validating to hear such a similar experience.

[76] But one thing that really, really blew me away was our origin story.

[77] Like having a sick mother and I don't know how Ash would describe her father, but like mine was emotionally unavailable.

[78] You know, and just like having that dynamic and then seeing how that led to our attachment style and potentially some codependence there.

[79] It kind of felt like a belonging.

[80] I was like, I have somebody that's met me in this same crossroads.

[81] So it felt really validating for me also.

[82] It's not a tribe you want to be a part of, but you also don't want to be alone in either.

[83] And so like you said, we're not the victims, according to CSAM.

[84] So I found little support there.

[85] Other divorcees and even people on dating apps, they don't understand how I feel or that I feel like I did nothing wrong in my marriage.

[86] So it's just really, really alienating.

[87] But then to find somebody else in those crossroads is like, oh, thank God, I'm relatable to somebody.

[88] Yeah.

[89] With everything you've both been through, can you even imagine or be open to allowing yourself to be vulnerable to be in a relationship again?

[90] Would you even consider a new relationship?

[91] I knew for sure that I never wanted to date again.

[92] I couldn't reconcile how I would bring somebody into my safe circle that I've built over this last year, especially with the children.

[93] However, there is a good friend of mine that has been really supportive and really patient and really kind.

[94] I had known this particular person from years before, and he'd reached out just to see how I was doing and then asked if we could go get coffee.

[95] At that point, I still couldn't even leave my home.

[96] I didn't feel safe enough to even go to the grocery store.

[97] So to think about going in public, not even just with me, but with another male by myself, I physically couldn't do it.

[98] So after a couple of weeks, I agreed to go to dinner with him.

[99] You know, as a platonic thing, we'd kind of talked here and there.

[100] And we got to the dinner place, and I was like, I can't go in.

[101] And then he's like, well, do you want to get drive -through?

[102] Like, what's your favorite food?

[103] And I was like, okay, French fries.

[104] He's really had to endure quite a bit to stay involved in my life Because there's plenty of times if I were him, I'd be like, this is a lot.

[105] But he's been really cool.

[106] For me, when I heard you actually say, he has to deal with a lot because of me or whatever.

[107] If he wants to be in your life, he's going to have to.

[108] I just want you to speak highly of your life because you've done so much to get to where you are.

[109] And I don't want you to talk about what your experience is in any shame or put that down.

[110] because you didn't put yourself in this situation.

[111] Jason did.

[112] Yeah.

[113] I think you're totally right.

[114] And I think it might be something that Aaron's already processed through that I haven't because it's been in stages.

[115] I don't feel like I have a big banner above my head that says, hey, my name's Ashley.

[116] I have three kids.

[117] I have a great career.

[118] Oh, and guess what?

[119] My husband, Jason, was arrested for a child pornography.

[120] You know, so it's not like that anymore.

[121] but I feel like I'm still hiding it behind my back, you know?

[122] Like, it's still there.

[123] Right.

[124] It defines every single day in my life.

[125] Anything that goes wrong or not as planned, I still am like, fuck you, Jason.

[126] That's really what I think.

[127] Right now, what he did still define so much of the kids and I in our days and how we move forward.

[128] But, you know, slowly going away.

[129] Yeah.

[130] Well, thanks for sharing that.

[131] What about you, Erin?

[132] How has this affected your ability to trust and your openness to relationships?

[133] Initially, I felt similar.

[134] It was really scary, and it took me some time to open up to people.

[135] But over the course of time, I kind of swung the other way.

[136] I'm hyper -independent as far as attachment styles.

[137] I'm more love -avoidant, where I can cut somebody off quickly.

[138] Also being a therapist, I'm working on myself and I'm thinking about thoughts and feelings and systemic behavior all day long every day of the week.

[139] So I'm already in a position to not be relatable to most men.

[140] The emotional IQ just isn't there for me. So I do try to online date.

[141] I do try to connect with people.

[142] but if it doesn't work out for me, I'm quick to shut that down and move another way because my life is good.

[143] I've done a lot of work to clean up that part.

[144] We don't have baggage moving forward.

[145] I have full custody of my kids.

[146] My kids were young when this all happened.

[147] So the only person I have to blame for their behavior is myself because I'm the only one who's been raising them and has this attachment to them.

[148] I'd like to think as far as the package that I put out moving forward is, Hi, I'm Aaron.

[149] I have a great job.

[150] I run my own business.

[151] I have two wonderful kids.

[152] This is us.

[153] And the rest of it is just background noise at this point.

[154] Wow.

[155] You're amazing.

[156] Yeah.

[157] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[158] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[159] We cloned his voice using AI.

[160] In 2001, Police say I killed my family.

[161] First mom, then the kids.

[162] And rigged my house to explode.

[163] In a quiet suburb.

[164] This is the Beverly Hills of the valley.

[165] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[166] There was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

[167] They found my wife's SUV.

[168] Right on the reservation boundary.

[169] And my dog flew.

[170] All I could think of is going to sniper me out of some tree.

[171] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[172] For two years.

[173] They won't tell you anything.

[174] I've traveled the nation.

[175] I'm going down in the cave.

[176] Tracking down clues.

[177] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[178] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[179] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[180] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[181] Do you recognize my voice?

[182] Join an exploding house.

[183] The hunt.

[184] Family annihilation.

[185] Today.

[186] And a disappearing act.

[187] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[188] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dyes.

[189] into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[190] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[191] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[192] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[193] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[194] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California.

[195] Five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[196] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except one.

[197] A woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[198] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[199] Were she hurt hiking?

[200] Did she run away?

[201] Had she been kidnapped?

[202] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[203] I've been reporting this story for four years, and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[204] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[205] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[206] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[207] If you had the chance, Ash, would you go back to your old life before you found out everything?

[208] Wow.

[209] I'm going to be super honest.

[210] I miss how naive I was to all of this ugly.

[211] I miss the mother I was.

[212] I miss the routine.

[213] I just miss that boring, mundane life that many people.

[214] when they're married for a decade or whatever, however long you're like, this is fucking boring.

[215] I miss that.

[216] I miss that with every single ounce of my soul.

[217] So I don't know.

[218] I can't fully 100 % answer that.

[219] I totally understand that.

[220] But through my therapy with Jess, I also know that I would have never been able to deal with some of my core wounds that have led me. to some of the choices that I made or not valuing myself and not trusting myself.

[221] Maybe me being who I was then would have made it worse for the children than actually dealing with how we got to this spot.

[222] So for the first time in my life, I feel joy that I've never felt.

[223] It's like living in a black and white world my whole life and then all of a sudden I see color and I know what I like and I know what I want.

[224] I'm like, you are smart and you are beautiful and you are worthy and you are a good mother and this is a good choice.

[225] I have to actually have that self -dialogue now.

[226] Erin, you first found out that your husband, Joel, was consuming CSAM in 2017.

[227] So it's been considerably longer.

[228] You seem to be able to separate what happened from the life you have with your kids now.

[229] I was a wife because I liked that.

[230] role.

[231] I was playing.

[232] I liked that dynamic that we had, but it really had nothing to do with him.

[233] I didn't like being his wife, but I liked having those family values, you know, having the potential to have children and go to soccer games and make breakfast in the morning.

[234] I love doing all of that stuff.

[235] And that's because that's my character.

[236] It has nothing to do with what he deserves or what he didn't deserve.

[237] I would have done that stuff anyway.

[238] You know, it was free.

[239] It was unconditional.

[240] Would I want to go back to that life?

[241] Fuck?

[242] No. That was a lie.

[243] That was a veil.

[244] Yeah, facade.

[245] Yeah, a total facade.

[246] Now I think I actually have the chance at being unchained and real and authentic with someone.

[247] And like, what a blessing.

[248] And we're Young, we've got tons of time to do this right.

[249] Listening to you talk makes me emotional.

[250] I'm such a cryer.

[251] I just want to hold you because I feel like you're a past version of me. I hope you're a future version of me. That's such a supreme compliment.

[252] But I just want to say, it's going to be okay.

[253] It's going to be better.

[254] I wish that people that we interacted with or tried to date understood what a fucking blessing it is to be with someone like us because we stepped up and we did the right thing.

[255] We have integrity.

[256] We have strength.

[257] We know what we want.

[258] We know how to deal with difficult situations.

[259] And sometimes that just guts me when people maybe misunderstand me as a bird.

[260] Jordan, because I think I'm fucking awesome.

[261] You are?

[262] And you're going to be awesome, too.

[263] Our goal was to unearth a betrayal going on in homes across the country.

[264] A new friendship between these women is an extra gift.

[265] Another gift is hearing from our audience.

[266] We set up an email, Betrayalpod at gmail .com, so you can send us anything, your own story of betrayal, thoughts about the podcast, even complaints.

[267] We get a few of those.

[268] But mostly, we've seen letters of support or similar experiences.

[269] We asked Ashley and her teenage daughter Avea, who was the victim of her stepfather Jason's voyeurism, sit with us and read some.

[270] How's been everything since we launched the show?

[271] I've been thinking about you.

[272] Good.

[273] Really good.

[274] I've had a lot of girls reach out to me about the podcast, which is super cool.

[275] So this one says Avea.

[276] Hi.

[277] I'm sure Avea has heard she's an inspiration.

[278] I'm sure she's heard she's strong, that she's persevered through the worst thing imaginable.

[279] As someone who was abused by their mother's fiancé at 12 years old, Avea is more than that.

[280] She's a role model.

[281] I'm 24 now.

[282] I never told my mother what happened, even though she knows.

[283] I was groomed and abused by my father until I was 15, and I never told anyone about it until I met my husband.

[284] Avea's strength to come forward and give the biggest middle finger to Jason.

[285] and felt so cathartic to hear.

[286] She's laying stones for healing, helping pave the way for the kids who are going through all of this, and will unfortunately go through this in the future.

[287] I hope Avea knows how inspirational her bravery and strength is.

[288] I wish Avea, Ashley, and the whole betrayal of crew the best.

[289] Thank you for telling the story and bringing awareness to a dangerous oversight in the criminal justice system.

[290] Thank you so much, Jay.

[291] Oh, it's really awesome to hear other people's stories.

[292] and, like, them have the strength to come forward and talk about it.

[293] Even them writing that email is such a big thing, too.

[294] Right, because even putting together in an email could be scary to somebody.

[295] Yeah, yeah, clicking send could be the hardest thing that they've ever done, you know?

[296] Right.

[297] Hello, I just started season two today and my heart is pounding.

[298] I was also a victim of a partner who committed a crime with child pornography.

[299] He worked with underage girls as a youth wellness coordinator, and access the internal records at his work to track down his victims on Facebook and groomed them.

[300] It makes me sick to my stomach to think about it still.

[301] But hearing others on the podcast talk about going through the same thing has been really helpful in the process and processing my trauma.

[302] Thank you so much for making this podcast.

[303] It's just mind -blowing to me. I never would have imagined people from across the world reaching out to us, telling us their stories and how they feel.

[304] When she had said the way that her partner had groomed his victims, it made me remember, like, the shame that I felt and how terrible it was.

[305] And when she said that she was able to work through some of the trauma by hearing the stories, it's another one of those things where I was like, okay, this is exactly where I am supposed to be right now because of women like her.

[306] The next one, I just want to say to Ashley, thank you for being.

[307] there for your kids.

[308] I went through something like your daughter went through, but it turned out differently.

[309] My grandfather violated me, my sister, and my cousin for years.

[310] It started when I was four and only stopped when I was six, and it's because my cousin told the police.

[311] My grandfather first started out with CSAM and then all the way up to what he did to us.

[312] When my mom found out what had happened and the things he did, she couldn't believe that her father could do such terrible things.

[313] So she didn't believe any of it.

[314] She refused to face reality to protect her children, and it's why I haven't spoken to her in years.

[315] Ashley, you have saved countless little girls from being severely traumatized and hurt by Jason.

[316] I can never, ever thank you enough for that.

[317] You are an amazing mom, and I just wish my younger self had a mom that was even half as brave as you are.

[318] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[319] Wow.

[320] I think my biggest fair through all of this was exactly what this woman has wrote in.

[321] I always thought that there's a possibility that someday my children will be upset with maybe the way that I originally had handled.

[322] Jason being caught, and one day they choose not to have a relationship with me because of the way that I initially had reacted.

[323] You mean when you went back into Wi -Fi mode and supporting him after he got out of jail the first time?

[324] Yeah.

[325] But I also know that But once, you know, I kind of went through that grief and really got over some of the denial and really looked at it straight in the face, I realized a couple things.

[326] One of them was, in my opinion, the criminal justice system isn't there for the victims.

[327] I'm so grateful that this woman hurt us.

[328] And I'm grateful that in 10 years, 20 years, that my children and other children and other women can look back and they'll know that this was my fight.

[329] This was the only way I knew how to fight for them.

[330] Yeah.

[331] Thank you.

[332] When we first went out to Utah, here's what Aveya told us about the podcast.

[333] So when my mother had first told me about this project, I kind of was like, what is she?

[334] Like, she's crazy.

[335] Like, she has lost her mind.

[336] Like, something is wrong with her.

[337] Like, she is her, she batshit crazy.

[338] She thinks that she's getting on a damn podcast.

[339] Avea, do you think your mom's still bad shit crazy for getting on a damn podcast?

[340] No, no. I definitely don't think so now.

[341] This podcast has changed my mom's life.

[342] It has made her a completely different person, and I am beyond grateful for this podcast.

[343] And I guess I didn't really understand it as much at first.

[344] But now that it's really, like, in action and going on, I really understand the help that it's brought to my mom and I definitely don't think she's about shit crazy anymore.

[345] I definitely am beyond proud of her.

[346] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[347] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[348] We cloned his voice using AI.

[349] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[350] First mom, then the kids.

[351] And rigged my house to explode.

[352] In a quiet suburb.

[353] This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley.

[354] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[355] There was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

[356] They found my wife's SUV.

[357] Right on the reservation boundary.

[358] And my dog blew.

[359] All I could think of is going to sniper me out of some tree.

[360] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[361] For two years.

[362] They won't tell you anything.

[363] I've traveled the nation.

[364] I'm going down in the cave.

[365] Tracking down clues.

[366] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[367] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[368] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[369] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[370] Do you recognize?

[371] My voice.

[372] Join an exploding house.

[373] The hunt.

[374] Family annihilation.

[375] Today.

[376] And a disappearing act.

[377] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[378] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know.

[379] And those you'll be hard pressed to forget.

[380] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[381] Oh gosh.

[382] The U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[383] We are athletes.

[384] We're going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[385] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[386] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[387] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except.

[388] one.

[389] A woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[390] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[391] Was she hurt hiking?

[392] Did she run away?

[393] Had she been kidnapped?

[394] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[395] I've been reporting this story for four years and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[396] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[397] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[398] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[399] At the beginning of this series, I told you about flying into Salt Lake City and the inviting, shadowy mountains that welcomed us late at night when we arrived.

[400] We had come here to meet Ashley Linton and learn about what happened to her family.

[401] I told you about the sinister things that had happened.

[402] in her home, all of the conflicting feelings of grappling with the beauty and the darkness.

[403] Before we left Salt Lake City, we drove up to the Utah State Capitol one afternoon.

[404] The building sits at a high elevation overlooking downtown Salt Lake City.

[405] A grand staircase sits out front with symmetrical Corinthian columns along the width of the building.

[406] In sign peak, a hill with religious significance to Latter -day Saints peaks from behind.

[407] The building reminds you of a mini version of the capital in D .C. It was cold, but there was a clear blue sky when we arrived.

[408] We entered through a side door.

[409] There was security there, a few police officers.

[410] And we stood there.

[411] We were waiting for a metal detector, maybe someone to go through our bag.

[412] Something to happen.

[413] It was a little awkward to be honest.

[414] Finally, my producer said with all the authority she could muster, We're here to see the attorney general.

[415] The cops looked at us, bemused, and said, well, what did you do?

[416] Okay, we're from Philly.

[417] This was so different from what we'd expect.

[418] Yeah, it's the people's house, sure, but we're still checking your bag.

[419] Not here.

[420] Nobody was checking anything.

[421] Third floor was all they said with a wave.

[422] We had some extra time, so we roamed around the building.

[423] Built in 1916, the Utah Capitol building has a dome supported by striking marble stone, dotted with skylights and murals depicting early pioneers.

[424] We walked around and peeked into the chambers where the state senate and state house meet.

[425] And then we met up with Attorney General Reyes' chief of staff, Rick Cantrell.

[426] Okay, there is one thing you should see this.

[427] Okay.

[428] But it's on the other side, it's a stairwell going down behind the Christmas tree.

[429] Okay.

[430] Elevator or stairs?

[431] Rick led us to a staircase on the west side of the capital, leading up to the second floor.

[432] Okay, so my favorite sculpture of democracy and freedom is not like what you.

[433] Washington or something like that it's these stairways you can see on each side it kind of dips down at first i couldn't tell what rick was talking about they looked like normal steps but then it became clear oh my god i noticed on the right side you can see an indentation in the marble worn down created by a hundred years of footsteps that's literally just like hard work wearing tear of people just going to work it's a statue of democracy carved by literal democracy Negotiating, working, evolving to make change.

[434] Change for the better.

[435] During the project, I thought about the staircase often.

[436] Sometimes it can be frustrating, wondering, well, things ever change.

[437] But these stairs reminded me it just starts with one step and dedication to keep moving forward and upward.

[438] We can make laws.

[439] We can tell our representatives what matters to us.

[440] and what we expect of them.

[441] If they don't hear us, we can find new representatives.

[442] We can hold people accountable when they hurt our children.

[443] Betrayal starts with the people brave enough to share what's wrong in their relationships and in our greater society.

[444] My hope is we'll all do something to make it better.

[445] I'm Andrea Gunning, and you'll hear from me on a bonus episode soon.

[446] If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at Patrilepod at gmail .com.

[447] That's Betrayal P -O -D.

[448] at gmail .com.

[449] To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line.

[450] At 1 -800, The Lost.

[451] If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to stopitnow .org .org.

[452] In the United Kingdom, go to stopitnow .org .org.

[453] These organizations can help.

[454] We're grateful for your support.

[455] And one way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

[456] And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

[457] Five -star reviews go a long way.

[458] A big thank you to all of our listeners.

[459] Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with IHeart Podcasts.

[460] The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Thetterman and associate producer, Kristen Melcherry.

[461] Our IHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck.

[462] Special thanks to our talent Ashley Litton, Avea, and Aaron.

[463] Thank you to production assistant Tessa Shields.

[464] Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio, portrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by My Music, and for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[465] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[466] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[467] We cloned his voice using AI.

[468] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[469] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[470] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[471] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[472] As I track down clues.

[473] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[474] Hunting.

[475] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[476] Robert Fisher.

[477] Do you recognize my voice?

[478] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite.

[479] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[480] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[481] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[482] We are athletes for going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[483] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like, never quite heard them before.

[484] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[485] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[486] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[487] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[488] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[489] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.