EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Jerry Buting

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[14] Experts on expert.

[15] Today, tell us who we got.

[16] Jerry Beuding.

[17] Jerry Beuding, you will remember him from making a murder.

[18] And this is so timely because when we recorded Jerry, we didn't even know there was a making The Murder Part 2.

[19] Yeah.

[20] Making a murder is awesome.

[21] It's on Netflix.

[22] We loved it.

[23] We devoured it like sweet, sweet candy bars.

[24] Yeah, but sweet, intense.

[25] Very intense.

[26] Very sad.

[27] And also now we're sad thinking about it was very heavy.

[28] But it's really well done.

[29] It's such a good show.

[30] Yeah, very juicy.

[31] Very juicy candy bar.

[32] And Jerry was one of the two council that were defending Stephen Avery.

[33] And he's just an incredibly smart, articulate, wonderful man with a very important message to spread about jurisprudence in this country.

[34] Yeah.

[35] We could do a little bit better is his theory.

[36] And I found it very compelling.

[37] We got a great system, but I think it could be better.

[38] Everything could be better.

[39] And if you love Jerry the way I think you will, please check out his book, Illusion of Justice Inside Making a Murderer and America's Broken System.

[40] It's a great read.

[41] One quick thing.

[42] attention armchair army and this is definitely by popular demand i've heard so many loving chicagoites what wabi what are you guys chicagoians chicagoans chicagoans chicago ins a lot of chicagoans saying when you're going to bring the live show to chicago it's one of the greatest cities in the country i love it personally and guess what mfers we're coming december first to chicago shy town the big windy setting of devil the White City, which I talk about endlessly.

[43] And Wabiwob's hometown.

[44] Wabiwabs, this is a homecoming for Wabiwob, and so we will announce details, but December 1st, we'll be coming to Chicago.

[45] Hope Gibson's is preparing a nice meal for me as we speak.

[46] I'll be eating there for sure.

[47] Go to our website and we'll have some details about when tickets will go on sale, but that'll be coming shortly that info.

[48] So December 1st, the Chicago Theater.

[49] So guys, enjoy today's expert, Jerry Buting.

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[53] He's an armchair expert.

[54] He's an upchair expert.

[55] Jerry Beauty and welcome to Armchair Expert.

[56] You're our first law expert, which is a tasty expert to have.

[57] crime stories.

[58] We do.

[59] Do you?

[60] Yeah, we consume a lot of date lines.

[61] My favorite movie genre, if you could call it, that is the courtroom drama.

[62] I just love them.

[63] So I am deeply interested in jurisprudence.

[64] Good.

[65] So this is a really fun guest for us to have.

[66] So you're in town, you're promoting a book called Allusion of Justice, which I started reading last night.

[67] Forgive me, I didn't consume the whole book in one night.

[68] It's okay.

[69] But right out of the gates, I can tell you that it is very well written.

[70] Thank you.

[71] Had you done a lot of writing throughout your life?

[72] Well, this is my first book.

[73] You know, as a lawyer, you write a lot.

[74] And I do trials and appeals.

[75] And on appeals, it's all writing, almost all writing.

[76] And, you know, briefs, you put out 11 ,000 word briefs all the time.

[77] And, you know, I figure, okay, so what, what's a book?

[78] 100 ,000 words or something like that.

[79] It's just like 10 briefs.

[80] Sure.

[81] I can do that.

[82] Yeah.

[83] It's a very different kind of writing, though.

[84] Yeah.

[85] Well, that's what I was going to ask.

[86] What is the kind of format for briefs or any of these things that you have to adhere to?

[87] Does it teach you like economy of words or does it give you good writing habits?

[88] It does teach you economy of words because you've got to fit within their word limit.

[89] And so it taught me how to edit pretty well, my own written words to be able to fit them within.

[90] Also to try and avoid legalese, even though you're writing for lawyers, judges, you want to avoid as much legalese as possible, make a clear, more interesting.

[91] I mean, you know, these appellate courts, you know, they'll go home and they'll have 10 briefs.

[92] Oh, forget that.

[93] And, you know, if you don't catch them early, you got to, like, hook them early, just like anything else.

[94] Then, you know, they turn it off or they don't pay attention.

[95] So, I think it helped me in that regard.

[96] Well, like, in script writing, if your first three pages aren't dynamite, no one's ever getting beyond that.

[97] You know, you learn that quickly.

[98] Sure.

[99] There's so much of your job, because I was thinking about your job last night.

[100] And Monica and I both went back and visited making a murder, which is a murder, which is a is on Netflix and it's a tremendous 10 -part documentary about the trial of Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassey.

[101] It's phenomenal if you haven't seen it.

[102] Just stop listening to this podcast.

[103] And Jerry is a lawyer on that show.

[104] Yes, he's one of two lawyers that defended Stephen.

[105] Maybe there were more.

[106] But at any rate, as I was watching it, I started really thinking about how encompassing the job is.

[107] It's certainly not just knowing the law.

[108] I was thinking specifically how you have to probably manage the personality of the judge.

[109] There's almost dating involved or something.

[110] I don't know exactly what to call it, but there's another human being that ultimately has a ton of control over how this thing goes.

[111] And you're trying to make them exert your will in some way.

[112] There's got to be a lot of psychology behind it and a lot of interpersonal relations that you can't just be right, you know.

[113] I learned that exactly right.

[114] I learned that early on as a brand new lawyer where I had this case for that.

[115] the facts were perfect.

[116] The law was perfect.

[117] Yeah, I made my argument.

[118] It was an illegal stop, I think.

[119] And I lost.

[120] It's like, you know, WTF.

[121] How could I lose this?

[122] This was so obvious, but it's more than just that.

[123] You have to engage the judge personally.

[124] It helps to know the judge.

[125] But even before you get to a judge, you have to have interrelations and, you know, personal relationships with the prosecutors.

[126] Oh, yeah, I didn't even think of that.

[127] Because a lot of times, before a case ever gets to court or before it gets into a serious part of the court, the prosecutor can make or break your case, you know, depending on whether they're reasonable, unreasonable, whether you can convince them that the charge is wrong or the client's completely innocent.

[128] A lot of that you can do before you get to the denouement of court.

[129] And is that because they are also always actively evaluating whether they can try this case successfully?

[130] So you're trying to...

[131] Ideally, yes, they should be.

[132] The courts are really overworked.

[133] by and large most certainly urban areas are very overworked and so prosecutors often don't have time to really dig into their case and look at it until it's uh it gets to the point where they really have to do a lot of work right before the trial's beginning or maybe right before a big motion to suppress yeah and then suddenly they open their file and look and realize ah you know this isn't as clear cut as we thought and you know then they don't like to lose you're just pointed out that that's not that's going to get ditched they're going to throw that out probably exactly So a large part of your job is being a salesman.

[134] Is that accurate?

[135] There's a lot of that.

[136] There's also a lot of social work, psychology.

[137] I mean, what I learned early on is it's not just the legal issues that you've got to raise.

[138] You've got to bring humanity into the courtroom.

[139] And that is very difficult when you've got courts that are so clogged that they are just like machines, grinding people out, mostly poor people.

[140] Yeah.

[141] Yeah.

[142] So bedside manner becomes one of your probably most deadliest quill.

[143] It can be.

[144] Yeah.

[145] And yeah, I just can't imagine that's what you think when you start law school.

[146] So right out of the gates, you're from Indiana.

[147] Is that correct?

[148] That's right.

[149] We're neighboring state, Michigan.

[150] Right.

[151] And I used to tassel corn in Indiana.

[152] Did you?

[153] Yeah, so quite familiar with your land.

[154] But you were in a bit of rural northwest Indianapolis area?

[155] Yes.

[156] We actually had a cornfield right across the street, which was great to be able to play.

[157] in and build forts and all of that.

[158] Yeah.

[159] But it really wasn't very far out from the, it was like 56th Street, so not that far out from the downtown area.

[160] What did your parents do?

[161] Both of my parents met at Purdue.

[162] They were studying organic chemistry.

[163] My mother got a master's degree.

[164] My father got a PhD.

[165] He then went to work for Eli Lillies in Indianapolis, World Headquarters.

[166] What is it, Eli Willey's?

[167] Eli Lillies.

[168] It's pharmaceuticals.

[169] Oh, okay.

[170] And so we got all our drugs for free.

[171] That's great.

[172] That's the dream.

[173] Right.

[174] But then after he had five children in like seven years, seven or eight years, and he wasn't going to be able to make it on a chemist's salary.

[175] And so his boss said, why don't you try law school.

[176] It would be a patent attorney.

[177] We could use a patent attorney.

[178] And so he went to night school for five years.

[179] Jeez.

[180] Somehow managed to have another child during that time.

[181] He is so horny your father.

[182] Seemingly so.

[183] Or unlucky, one of the two.

[184] Maybe he only had sex six times in his life.

[185] So they were very Catholic, so who knows?

[186] Right, sure.

[187] But anyway, they ended up having seven children.

[188] He became a patent attorney.

[189] And my mother was, you know, stay home, mom, working, raising seven children.

[190] And that's how we grew up.

[191] We lived just walking distance to the Catholic school who we attended.

[192] Then went to high school at another Catholic school, Jesuit, all boys.

[193] We've had a few guests that are products of Jesuit education, and most of those guests have had a really favorable view of that experience.

[194] Yes, I do too.

[195] You do, right?

[196] It can be a real defining moment in your character.

[197] To me, it sounds like my worst nightmare, like authority, all these things, but it can yield pretty great results.

[198] They're very good on academics.

[199] You know, I grew up in high school in the 70s, and things were the Jesuits tend to be in the more liberal wing of the Catholic Church anyway.

[200] But despite that kind of upbringing, it was right after my time in a Jesuit school that I more or less left the church.

[201] I stopped attending for about 10 more years, you know, through college, law school.

[202] That part of it wasn't important to me. I ended up going back to the church eventually.

[203] To battle your drug problem?

[204] No, no. So blame you.

[205] Also, real quick, isn't it such a bummer that a chemist, can't afford to seven kids yeah like this should be making the most amount of money that anyone makes in this country because it's so hard to do to get there yeah and so necessary yeah yeah right and and they were you know devising drugs that were saving lives extending lives but it wasn't trickling down he had to stop doing that become a lawyer it's pretty bonkers so but i would imagine with a mother with a master's degree and a father with both a law degree and a PhD, I have to assume that education was really valued in the home?

[206] It was, which is why we went to Jesuit school.

[207] It was, you know, it was a financial strain to have seven children and, you know, they put virtually every dime that my father made into their children and primarily education.

[208] So by the time we got to college, we were on our own, I had to work my way through college.

[209] They had helped some, but it was, you know, when I think of the dollars right now, it doesn't seem like that much.

[210] for tuition but it doubled in my four years at in high school but did you at a young age you have this great forward it's one of my favorite forwards i've ever read it tells us so much about you in the simplest little kind of metaphor which is that you loved long distance running you were not competitive by nature so you started on the cross -country team but then quickly you left but you kept with running you enjoyed that i did i enjoyed that you know, when you kind of get in that zone and your breathing is at a perfect pace and you kind of, it's almost like a high.

[211] Sure, sure.

[212] Yeah.

[213] And you're exerting a control over something, right?

[214] Like there's a lot, for me at least the things like that that appealed to me, whereas I could enter this zone that I was kind of in control of and that was peaceful for me. Right.

[215] But so when did you develop an interest in law?

[216] Was it something like, oh, dad, did this, I'm going to going to do this?

[217] Or had you seen an episode of, you know, Perry Mason?

[218] Perry Mason.

[219] That's the thing.

[220] Thank you for pulling that for me. It's been a while since I saw an episode.

[221] A lot of listeners probably don't even know who Perry Mason is.

[222] Probably not.

[223] But he, you know, that was, you can still see Perry Mason on.

[224] Oh, my grandmother's watching him daily.

[225] All kinds of.

[226] Yeah.

[227] But, you know, I always found that interesting.

[228] I don't know.

[229] I think it really wasn't my father's role modeling that wanted me to become a lawyer because he was a patent attorney.

[230] And I was really not interested in corporate law.

[231] or civil law or anything of that nature.

[232] I'd like the idea of representing people, helping people.

[233] Right.

[234] Who are the underdogs?

[235] Right.

[236] And goods, because that's my question.

[237] Did you feel like an underdog growing up?

[238] Did you feel like you could have benefited?

[239] You know, I did, I think.

[240] Yeah.

[241] I was the worst athlete of the family.

[242] Okay.

[243] Unquestionably.

[244] You know, and I went to a growth spurt in puberty where suddenly, you know, I grew so fast that you're gangly and awkward and can't.

[245] So that made me even worse.

[246] particularly with basketball, which was the chosen, the national sport in Indiana.

[247] Basketball God country in Indiana.

[248] I think that's the ratio, yeah.

[249] Ranking.

[250] So, you know, I think that that kind of made me feel a little bit more of an underdog because, you know, my friends who were better athletes and, you know, we did a lot of sort of schoolyard games and baseball games where we would just get the neighbor kids together or play basketball or whatever.

[251] And they were always better than me. And so that gave me a certain sense of humility, perhaps.

[252] Yeah.

[253] Well, also, if you're the beneficiary of a unfair system, you don't even notice it.

[254] You're like, life's awesome.

[255] I was born six, four, and two 20.

[256] I've got blonde hair.

[257] I'm the quarterback of the football team.

[258] This system works.

[259] But if you're kind of on the outside of the system, right, you do, I at least personally, develop this overweighted sense of justice.

[260] like this this is unjust there's some unjust things and you i became i feel like particularly aware of things that were unjust do you feel like you were like terminator looking around the landscape and going like hmm not fair uh not fair is that kind of your nature yeah i think that's probably true now you know i don't want to oversell it i mean when i look back on it compared to a lot of people i had a privileged life i had you know two loving parents and siblings and you know we were middle class yeah but we didn't go hungry and you know we had a lot of privileges and yet but does that matter like is anyone now we can look back and be very aware of our privilege and it's great to acknowledge it but when you're in the moment it doesn't really matter to you that you are higher on the social status ladder than 13 other people you're just looking at the 14 that are above you like it's very hard to have perspective as a human being that you're doing better than a lot right and I also grew up in a in a you know the late 60s and early 70s, a very politically turbulent time.

[261] And so there was a lot of injustice everywhere you looked.

[262] And a lot of people fighting to change that injustice.

[263] And I really got interested in that too.

[264] Right.

[265] The Vietnam protests, the civil rights stuff, a lot of stuff.

[266] Watergate, yes.

[267] All of that corruption.

[268] And, you know, that really helped motivate me. And ultimately pushed me into the law because like a lot of people in my age, you know, my generation, we were going to change the world, right?

[269] Yeah.

[270] We were very idealistic.

[271] And who better could do that than lawyers?

[272] At least that was the thinking at that time.

[273] And when I decided to go into criminal law, which was a big step.

[274] When I got to college initially, I signed up as an astronomy major, believe it or not.

[275] Of course, sure.

[276] Which I enjoy.

[277] Pictures of Kepler and stuff in your dorm room, Copranicus.

[278] My brother was a really good.

[279] amateur astronomer.

[280] He was able to find all the messier objects, 110 or something like that, where all these objects that this famous scientist had picked out in the night sky, and he was able to find them all himself.

[281] I was never that good.

[282] But when I got to, I think within the first week or two of college, it was pretty obvious to me that this was not my career.

[283] You know, I would sit in the classroom, and they were very socially awkward, all the other students.

[284] Yeah, they couldn't carry on small talk.

[285] And it was like, you guys belong on a mountain alone in the middle of the night.

[286] Yeah, the Wilson Observatory.

[287] Yeah.

[288] I decided this would be a good hobby, better hobby for me than a career.

[289] Uh -huh.

[290] What did you switch to?

[291] I switched to for, English.

[292] Forensic Studies, which was criminal justice based.

[293] Okay.

[294] Because are the three main feeders for law school are generally English major history?

[295] I've heard increasingly anthropology weirdly.

[296] It's all about the reading load, I heard.

[297] Just any liberal arts would do it, but they've tried to broaden.

[298] I mean, they have, when I was in law school, one of my roommates was from MIT.

[299] No kidding.

[300] So a lot of different skills can be useful as a lawyer, but a lot of it is reading, no question.

[301] I've always had an interest in science, even though I thought I wasn't good enough to be, to make that a career.

[302] Right.

[303] And so one of my niches in my career nowadays is forensic science and challenging experts.

[304] And yeah, so of the many, I have a like handful of global topics I want to get into with you.

[305] And one of them is that is the kind of NCIS culture we live in, this kind of blind faith in a lot of these forensic technologies that are now kind of, a lot of them being revealed to be.

[306] Right.

[307] Utter bullshit.

[308] And you lived at the height of that, right?

[309] You, you were practicing law when DNA came about, right?

[310] Right.

[311] This new magic weapon.

[312] You've also seen, like, probably handwriting analysis that was utter bullshit.

[313] So, yeah, just can you help us understand, like, what has happened in the last 20, 30 years of forensics?

[314] And maybe your estimation of how accurate is or how much it should be trusted.

[315] Sure.

[316] I think DNA was sort of the watershed moment for forensic studies because forensic science, to that point, there's all kinds of voodoo science, some of which is still used in the courtrooms that was all subjective.

[317] the analyst would look at, like, I'll give you an example, hair comparison, microscopic hair comparison.

[318] The most bogus forensic science ever, in my opinion, although bite marks is right up there.

[319] But they would take, you know, they would pluck a hair from the suspect's head.

[320] They would compare it to the hair found at the crime scene through this microscope.

[321] They would try and look, there was no specific number of points of similarity that you had to.

[322] A criteria to me. Yeah, no criteria.

[323] it was all subjective and they would say this looks consistent with or sometimes similar to and then the prosecutors would take that one step further and would try and argue that it was a match you know right and after dna came out we realized that that wasn't true even when they had said that these hairs were consistent in fact DNA excluded the defendant in the case after sometimes after decades in prison so that would even prove it was like a canine hair that they were well Well, when people started going back and looking at that, they found that, you know, two experts may have a completely different opinion.

[324] You could find hairs on the same head that were dissimilar enough that they would say they would, they were not even consistent.

[325] Right.

[326] And so that was one of the, I think, the first time that people really started to look at, well, wait a second, what is this science?

[327] Yeah.

[328] If you happen to read the book, I think it's called Killing Shepherds.

[329] No. Oh, it's about this French serial killer at the end of the 1800s.

[330] and basically the birth of forensic science by this French scientists.

[331] Very fascinating.

[332] So handwriting was one of the early ones, too.

[333] You mentioned that.

[334] That came about in the 20s or 30s, and J. Edgar Hoover was modernizing the FBI or the precursor to the FBI and created the FBI Laboratory and handwriting was one of the – I talk about this in my book, how this guy claimed that he could determine with almost to exclude everybody that this was the source of this handwriting based upon the way you looped your Y's and crossed your T's and that sort of thing, which was all bogus, of course.

[335] But people bought it for many years and people were wrongly convicted for many years, decades.

[336] Yeah.

[337] And so in 2010, pretty recently, the National Academy of Science came out with this study, the first thorough review of all of the forensic science fields.

[338] So ballistics, fingerprints, bite marks, hair, arson, all of those things.

[339] Blood spatter.

[340] Is that part of it?

[341] Blood spatter.

[342] They looked at all of this stuff.

[343] And they said, well, what are the real basis, scientific basis for any of these?

[344] And they found that, that with the exception of DNA, none of them were ever scientifically validated, not even fingerprints.

[345] Even fingerprints, there was no one set of criteria of how many points of similarity there must be.

[346] and how many points of dissimilarity there could be and yet still find a quote -unquote match.

[347] Yeah.

[348] And so they recommended that all of these fields, which, you know, there's association of arson experts and all these individual fields have their own little associations.

[349] They recommended that they go back and try and do real scientific validity studies that can be replicable, scientifically valid.

[350] Yeah.

[351] And very few of them have done that.

[352] in the last it's been eight years now yeah so where are we at now like what does that mean that this stuff is getting thrown out or it's probably still being in backwater courtrooms being it's not even in backwater courtrooms and uh what what's happened to some extent the labs that used to rely on them no longer do so for instance hair comparison the FBI just a few years ago decided that they were no longer going to use that and they went back and they looked at Now, this was just in 2015, they looked at like 268 of their cases, of their experts who presumably should be the best in the country, the FBI lab.

[353] And they studied 268 cases and discovered reading the transcripts that 95 % of the time their own experts had either misleadingly or falsely represented the results.

[354] Uh -huh.

[355] 32 of those people were on death row, 14 of them executed.

[356] Oh, my God.

[357] Now, that's not to say that there wasn't some other evidence in the case, but still.

[358] Now, isn't there an innate flaw in having, considering that there are basically two sides to any court case, which is the prosecution and the defense, to have either side being the one evaluating the information is just probably inherently a bit flawed, yeah?

[359] Well, are you talking about?

[360] independence of the analysts.

[361] Yeah, the notion that the FBI is doing analysis already, well, they're a part of the prosecution side of it, this equation at all times.

[362] Precisely.

[363] And that is a serious problem when it comes to crime labs in this country, because by and large, they are all organized under law enforcement.

[364] Right.

[365] They're either an actual part of a police department or the state bureau of an investigation or whatever it might be.

[366] So they don't have the independence from law enforcement that they should to come into court and profess themselves as scientific experts who should be unbiased.

[367] The other thing they don't do, though, is blind testing.

[368] So, you know, they ought to have samples brought to them.

[369] They should not know which sample is the suspect.

[370] And which is the crime scene and which is just a reference sample they're trying to exclude.

[371] Yeah.

[372] They should just test it.

[373] You know, does it match?

[374] Does it not?

[375] The way they audition concert musicians now, it's behind a screen.

[376] So you can't.

[377] can't have the male -female bias.

[378] Exactly.

[379] And it's a, it's called cognitive bias.

[380] And it's a human trait.

[381] We all have it.

[382] Yes.

[383] And you need to take steps to try and minimize that.

[384] And one of those would be blind testing by crime labs, but they very resistant to that.

[385] And that was another topic that I really want to hear you educate us on, which is confirmation bias or any of these biases we have as humans.

[386] We were recently robbed.

[387] We got ourselves to 100 % certain.

[388] to who it was.

[389] I mean, 100 % would have bet my kids' lives on the fact that we knew who it was.

[390] I then embarrassingly confronted the parents.

[391] Absolutely our title by this person wasn't even within 200 miles.

[392] Just shocked out of my mind how fucking wrong I was.

[393] And then I was reminded like, this is why we don't permit vigilanteism because we're not good.

[394] Humans are just innately bad at this.

[395] need really ironclad systems in place to counteract how our brains just work, right?

[396] That's right.

[397] And that's why we have all the trappings of due process, including, you know, the burden of proof that the prosecution must make and the presumption of innocence, because it's very difficult to prove you didn't do something.

[398] If somebody wants to accuse you of something, they should be the one that would prove that.

[399] Right.

[400] We've lost sight of that, unfortunately, in this country and too many people jump to conclusions don't give anybody the benefit of the doubt or the presumption of innocence.

[401] It can also be not malicious, right?

[402] Oh, absolutely.

[403] It's just our flawed human brains that once we lock on to something, we only see things that confirm that's exactly right.

[404] Confirmatory bias.

[405] They also call it tunnel vision.

[406] And police officers often fall prey to this, although you can train people to be aware of it.

[407] What it does is, you know, there's a tendency to look like looking down a tunnel only at evidence that confirms your belief in what happened.

[408] Yeah.

[409] And you kind of ignore everything off to the sides that doesn't support your theory.

[410] Yeah.

[411] And again, maybe not even because you're like, oh, I want to exclude anything contradictory.

[412] It's just how your brain naturally functions.

[413] So the fingerprint analysis, to your point, if you're looking for 14 points on the sample, that match, and you find them, you likely weren't looking for the 35 that don't match.

[414] You almost can't be doing both things at once mentally.

[415] A better example of that actually is what they call toolmark, firearm and toolmark evidence, which otherwise a lot of people know as ballistics, where they look at a test fired bullet or shell, let's say bullets, that as they go through the rifle, they have certain marks, stride.

[416] Yeah, the premise is that every rifle is unique in its...

[417] Right, and that is not true, first of all.

[418] Right, I've always bumped against that.

[419] I'm like, they're mass -producing some of these guns, a million a year.

[420] And you're telling me they're not, at least a thousand of them bored identically?

[421] They are.

[422] And in fact, this forensic field developed back when they used to hand -bore rifles.

[423] And there were slight microscopic differences.

[424] But as they've gotten to the point of mass production, they're all, the only differences you will find or with age, perhaps, little damages and things like that, wear and tear.

[425] But they'll look under a microscope, they'll compare a test fired with the bullet, let's say, at the scene or in the body, and they'll try and line up these marks.

[426] But in this field, they can call something a match, if only something like 40%, 35 to 40 % of the lines even match.

[427] Oh, wow.

[428] Meaning the majority do not.

[429] Yes, right, right.

[430] And yet they ignore the dissimilarity.

[431] and say, well, they're dissimilar, but we don't have to consider those.

[432] Yes.

[433] And then let's widen out even a bit.

[434] Let's start from this place that maybe I should have started with, which is at least my understanding of our criminal court system is we, by design, I see that you really like John Adams, right?

[435] Yes.

[436] Yeah, me too.

[437] He's a fascinating person.

[438] By design, we have opted to have a criminal justice system that prefers that a guilty person go free to an innocent person being convicted.

[439] We have prioritized that, right?

[440] Other legal systems have not, right?

[441] Where the burden of proof is on the defendant or whatnot.

[442] Right.

[443] Is that accurate?

[444] Yeah.

[445] I mean, John Adams, I quote him in the book, just to paraphrase it.

[446] Yeah, because I didn't really understand his quote, to be honest with you, when I read it, I read it like four times and I'm like, I don't think I'm getting the message.

[447] You know, it's interesting because I initially used a more modernized version of it and decided, Oh, people on the internet are going to tear this apart and say that's not really what he said.

[448] But really, the point was that, you know, it's better in our system.

[449] We believe it's better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person get wrongly convicted.

[450] Why?

[451] Because there are so many different ways in which people are guilty of, you know, all kinds of different offenses that you can never catch everybody.

[452] You can never prosecute everybody.

[453] Right.

[454] But if you start convicting the innocent, then people will think, well, why should I obey the law?

[455] If even being, if even obeying the law and being innocent isn't enough to protect me, then why should I ever?

[456] That's such an interesting counterintuitive deduction.

[457] It is.

[458] You're right.

[459] And his, like, fuck it.

[460] I could go to jail for doing something or not.

[461] I might as well do that.

[462] His point is, if such an idea as that should take hold in our society, then we're, really in trouble.

[463] Yeah, that's fascinating.

[464] And I don't want to get sidetracked by this, nor do I want to create a trap for you to step in that you'll regret.

[465] Is it at all troubling, just to derail a little bit, that our public courtroom is almost predicated on the exact opposite currently?

[466] Do you feel like there's been a little bit of shift in the way we administer our social justice that is almost the opposite?

[467] There is.

[468] It is troubling.

[469] And it's accelerated, I think, on social media.

[470] Yes.

[471] Where you are convicted.

[472] You lose your job first.

[473] Exactly.

[474] And then if you're lucky there's an investigation.

[475] Right.

[476] And that's if you're lucky, generally you don't.

[477] Or even if it's not a job, your reputation is gone because of accusations made on social media.

[478] And if you're an academic, and that happens to you, you're not getting hired at another university.

[479] That's a wrap on your 30 -year.

[480] That's right.

[481] Yeah.

[482] A short war story here.

[483] We had a case that went to trial.

[484] It was originally my case.

[485] My wife, Kathy Stilling, who's also a criminal defense attorney, we worked together, ultimately tried the case.

[486] And it was a substitute teacher who, you know, what kind of respect they get from students.

[487] I know how much I respected that.

[488] Yes, me too.

[489] This poor guy, he's in class, and he's got a work -to -school initiative adult there as well.

[490] So an outside person.

[491] And he says, well, we're going to do a little study on what it's like for manufacturing process.

[492] And so get your desks in circles and, and we'll start, you color this on the paper and pass it to the next guy and you want to be efficient and fast.

[493] And so they're doing this in circles and kids are high school kids.

[494] They're goofing off.

[495] Sure, they're drawing penises probably out of things.

[496] Or scribbling.

[497] And so this one girl was scribbling and getting this marker all over the desk.

[498] And the teacher comes over, reaches, points his arm over her shoulder, says you're going to have to stay after and clean that up.

[499] The girl next to her says, oh, Did he touch your boob?

[500] Oh, boy.

[501] And she says, I don't know.

[502] And then the girl says, well, I do.

[503] He touched your boob.

[504] And then this rumor starts going around.

[505] And then it ends up at the principal's office.

[506] He's accused of a sexual assault.

[507] The case goes all the way to trial.

[508] Oh, my goodness.

[509] The police never interviewed the three boys who were in the other side of the circle of these desks looking directly at it.

[510] Yeah.

[511] Who said, no, he didn't touch her boob.

[512] This is.

[513] And ultimately, he was found not.

[514] guilty in five minutes and the jury came out and shook his hand and said we hope you continue your teaching career which of course would not happen because once you're accused of something like that it ended his career and it was so sad because the only thing ever really wanted to do is be a teacher both of his parents were teachers oh my gosh so couldn't you just lie at this point right now and say but good news he invented ebay i feel like i need a silver line you know after that kind of a story Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[515] We've all been there.

[516] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[517] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[518] Like the unexplainable death of a retired.

[519] firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[520] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[521] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[522] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[523] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[524] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon music.

[525] What's up, guys?

[526] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[527] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[528] And I don't mean just friends.

[529] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[530] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[531] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[532] So, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting.

[533] Now, and the other thing I want to get in.

[534] So that's just kind of like the conceit of our legal system, right, that I think people need to know about.

[535] Because I don't know that it's common knowledge that that is why and how we practice law in this country, that it is to prevent the one innocent from going in at the expense of maybe 10 guilty people.

[536] So also walk us through the ethics just a little bit because my wife and I will get in these wonderful, I'll call them debates for the sake of this, but there are arguments.

[537] When we're watching a show, let's say, like we watched the OJ documentary, which was fascinating.

[538] And she very much objected to the different moves the defense counsel made, let's say, by bringing the jury to his house and they had re -hung pictures on his walls, so it appeared that he had more black friends than he maybe had.

[539] Right.

[540] And so, and she was, she felt like that was so unethical and should be illegal.

[541] And then I said, okay, but now switch it to it's Stephen Avery, who you want, you know, because we'd already watch that.

[542] I might now imagine that they're going to, they have an opportunity to give Steve and Avery the best possible defense and it involves that.

[543] And it is so dependent on whether you think the person's guilty or not about whether you think the thing is ethical or not.

[544] But I'm always of the position that your greatest ethical command is that you have to give them the very best defense humanly possible, right?

[545] Right.

[546] And explain why that is ethical because it can seem from the outside like, oh, you're, let's say, assume the person thinks the worst, that you're representing someone guilty of murder, they're a monster, and you're doing all these tricks to get this person off.

[547] Explain why it is your ethical obligation to do that.

[548] Well, because my role, first of all, is not to judge people whether they're guilty or not.

[549] And I talk about a little story in the book where I, because of the pressures when I was a public defender, I started taking shortcuts and making assumptions about that when I was wrong and proven wrong.

[550] And so the Vastmajoy, it's not like you see in TV where this guy comes in and, you know, pops down his money and says, I'm guilty, you're going to get me off, right?

[551] And I'm going to lie in court.

[552] I mean, you know, there are limits on what you can do that are actually part of the ethical code.

[553] You cannot, for instance, ethically put on perjured testimony.

[554] But you can put the state to its burden of proof.

[555] Right.

[556] And there are some cases where if a prosecutor is just being.

[557] too unreasonable in the way that they are recommending resolving the case, that you have to say, all right, well, then you're going to have to go to trial and prove it.

[558] And I can challenge that and point out where there are problems and weaknesses in their case.

[559] And oftentimes it's not a question of a complete, you know, not guilty or guilty verdict.

[560] It may be guilty of a lesser crime that the prosecutor wasn't willing to give as a plea bargain.

[561] But I think that is the part that some people miss is that you have an obligation in this system to keep the prosecution as honest as humanly possible to protect the actual system.

[562] Right.

[563] So it's not just about your client.

[564] You're also safeguarding the system.

[565] You are.

[566] And you have to be careful, though, sometimes because sometimes what may be in, you know, particularly when it comes to human relations that you have with a prosecutor or a judge, you may think, you know, it'd be better for my future cases, my future relations with these people, if I'm not as aggressive in this particular case.

[567] And yet you have to focus on the client that's before you.

[568] Or on legal issues, you may choose, you may think, oh, boy, if I, if I appeal this legal issue, I could make really bad law, meaning I could lose and then it would apply to everybody.

[569] It would become a. It would be a bad move.

[570] And yet, for that individual client, if it's in that person's interest, you you do have to make that appeal and advance that legal argument and try your best, even if you do fail.

[571] And so there's more of those kinds of ethical things, I think, that you face more commonly.

[572] And in your long career, I have to imagine you have had clients you've come to hate.

[573] Does that happen?

[574] I wouldn't say hate, no. I've had some clients I didn't think were the very pleasant people.

[575] Uh -huh.

[576] but I but I do try and find the good in people I mean that's well weirdly you know this is what actors do you'll hear them all the time in interviews saying you know even if they're playing a serial killer you can't play a serial killer from a place of this is a monster because there it just will be one dimensional you have to actually buy into the fact that you're that person and of course no one thinks they are a monster so it's this kind of mental hurdle you have to go through right to play with any kind of depth and and not that you're willingly taking out monsters, but you do, of course, if you have any expectation that a jury is going to see this human being one way, you have to minimally see them that way yourself, don't you?

[577] Right.

[578] And what I find with people is that there's a very, very thin sliver of our society that are like sociopaths or psychopaths, very, very small.

[579] The vast majority of people, even who have committed a crime, there's all kinds of circumstances.

[580] It's like a snapshot of them.

[581] at a particular time in their life or a particular day when they used bad judgment, often fueled by alcohol or drugs.

[582] And it doesn't necessarily, just like you may not wish to be portrayed on your worst moment.

[583] Oh, God, yeah.

[584] And me too.

[585] And so oftentimes it's a matter of trying to convey that to a judge or to a prosecutor before that, that this is a human being who made mistakes.

[586] You know, he can use some punishment, being held accountable.

[587] but you don't need to throw away this life forever.

[588] Yes.

[589] And so I try and focus on what caused this behavior.

[590] What is it in your life that's that turned this person down?

[591] There are a lot of times it's people who don't have the kinds of privileges I grew up with.

[592] For sure.

[593] And that was a challenge for me. When I first started practicing law, I was a public defender, meaning I was in court representing very, very poor people, many people of color.

[594] You know, I had not grown up around a lot of of that kind of poverty and grinding and diversity and diversity and all of that.

[595] And I still had to somehow relate to them in a way that I could then represent them, you know, as well as if I did know all of those problems.

[596] I had experienced all those problems.

[597] So you do sometimes have to immerse yourself in your client's life.

[598] I do get kind of emotionally involved with some of my clients, most of them, even though you're often advised not to.

[599] you know much like a doctor who you know or a surgeon you know you can't you lose a patient you shouldn't date them you shouldn't but you also shouldn't you shouldn't like get so emotionally involved if you're a cancer doctor I mean think of how many patients should lose yeah but I don't see my practice that way I do try to get personal with my clients and to understand them I think I have to have to understand them in order to be able to represent the best side of them so you were at the front line what is in the zeitgeist right now are being discussed, thank God, is this kind of disproportionate conviction of African -Americans.

[600] There's just a ton of data on it now, right?

[601] Yes.

[602] And if two people get tried of the exact same crime, one's white, one's black, it's just a staggering difference, right?

[603] The conviction rate?

[604] The conviction and the incarceration rate is really stank.

[605] The sentencing.

[606] Yes.

[607] You got to see that firsthand, I assume, as a public defender quite often.

[608] I did.

[609] And, you know, in my career, which started in 1981 as a lawyer, I mean, I've seen, that was a really difficult time in our justice system.

[610] That was during the cocaine, the crack.

[611] Right.

[612] And the disparity that somehow, that people in the 80s believed that crack was so much more addictive that, therefore, we were going to punish it a hundred times more than powder, basically.

[613] Yes.

[614] And it was also much cheaper.

[615] And so it became the drug of poor people, many people of color.

[616] And they were disproportionately punished as a result of that.

[617] That's, I think, where it really exploded.

[618] Very obvious about it.

[619] They penalized the version of the drug the black folks were using.

[620] And they minimized.

[621] Yeah, all the decriminalized the version the white people used.

[622] Right.

[623] Yeah.

[624] And how when you were in the eye of that storm, you must have been so tempted to just go, you guys, this is just fucking racism.

[625] Like, can't you see that has to be someone who's dedicated to pointing out injustice and that's just such a huge injustice, what was it like to be emotionally going through that so regularly and losing people to that?

[626] You know, it was a challenge, no question.

[627] What I think it was more difficult to deal with that in the courtroom on a case -by -case basis, particularly when this other pernicious development of mandatory minimums popped up, taking away any discretion that a judge had to avoid prison for somebody who, you know, had X amount of drugs quantity.

[628] And so what I started doing, actually, I became more invested in the policy sides of my career by working through associations, legislators, legislators, national association of criminal defense lawyers.

[629] I got very active in them, was on the board.

[630] And through those kinds of advocacy groups, tried to influence policy to change.

[631] Because ultimately, that's where it was happening.

[632] It was in the legislatures.

[633] But I can't say that I feel like I was very successful.

[634] Finally, I think people are starting to, the pendulum is starting to swing back and people are starting to realize that, you know, we need to be smarter on crime than just tough on crime.

[635] you know we've we've wasted a whole generation or two um in the meantime because of these these draconian policies we haven't at least historically been terribly interested in rehabilitation right we seem to be very interested in punishment right as compared to at least a lot of european systems norway yeah i don't know if you saw that michael more documentary who to invade next but but he had a great yeah there's guys hanging by a lake who are killers but then their recidivism rate is much lower way lower right and there's data on it so it's not even like you know it's in opinion there's just tons of data to support this so yeah is that something that is frustrating to you it is frustrating and you know there there was a period of time in the 60s when we we focus more on rehabilitation but then politicians frankly used it to scare people they found that it was a good way to get votes.

[636] Prosecutors, judges would have these clanging jail cell doors in their heads and, you know, all this like get tough on crime stuff.

[637] Whereas other countries, Norway is the best example I can think of.

[638] You know, they take, they start from the premise that these people are going to be out at some point, most of them.

[639] Right.

[640] And do we want them, we now have them under our control for a period of time.

[641] We are going to try and change whatever it is that brought them here in the first place.

[642] and make it so that they can succeed in society again when they get out, not just toss them out the door and have some parole agent who's very punitive and ready to lock them up at every moment.

[643] Because people do, they need a helping hand when you get out.

[644] And also America, you know, not only do we have a mass incarceration.

[645] I mean, 2 million people, 2 million people are in prison right now.

[646] And then there's many, many more who are on parole or probation supervision you have all these restricted rights.

[647] And then there's all the collateral consequences once you're a convicted felon, you have doors closed to you that would otherwise have been available.

[648] And most, the majority of those are drug related, aren't they?

[649] The majority are drug related.

[650] There are, there's also a lot of low level, you know, domestic violence and things of that nature where people are held in custody for periods of time.

[651] But when it comes to the prisons, the majority are.

[652] The majority's not violent crime, I guess, is the big point.

[653] Well, it's interesting.

[654] They, you know, again, politicians will play tricks with the numbers.

[655] You know, some of them will say, in Wisconsin, there's a debate going on in my home state right now about in the governor's race, you know, the Democrats who want to drastically reduce the prison population, which has tripled in the state in the last couple decades.

[656] And the current governor will argue, well, that something like 60 or 70 percent of these people are violent.

[657] well but violent in what sense not not even necessarily for what they're they're in prison for that may be a drug offense but because they had let's say a domestic abuse case against them in the past they're they can they may be labeled as a violent right that their crime was also yeah included violence yeah when it had it right and you know if so if i'm a very conservative am i hearing this i i would probably be inclined to go like oh well la di da guys yeah let's just let everyone out.

[658] We have to deal with crime.

[659] And to that, I would say, we absolutely do.

[660] The question just is, what is the most effective way to actually reduce crime?

[661] And it's probably counterintuitive in a lot of ways.

[662] Like, you know, what is it?

[663] It's 30 grand a year in some states to keep someone behind.

[664] Or more, yes.

[665] Or bars, right?

[666] So just even fiscally, if you're conservative, this is probably a terrible use of resources to be allocating 30 grand a year when you could probably send someone a treatment for X amount.

[667] You could also probably give in a sober living situation.

[668] There's all these different things that would actually save money and probably reduce recidivism.

[669] Boy, that's a word.

[670] That's a tough one for me. Well, and you know, you mentioned conservatives.

[671] I mean, that's, that may be the tipping point of, of why people are suddenly realizing that we need to get smarter.

[672] Because in Wisconsin, for instance, for the last five years, or so, we've been spending more on our prison system than all of the university campuses throughout the state combined, which is insane.

[673] Yeah.

[674] And Texas found themselves in the same situation about five or ten years ago.

[675] Texas, red state as you can get, has systematically reduced their prison population while improving the safety of their citizens in smart ways with diversion courts and treatment courts and more realistic sentences.

[676] So there are ways to do it that can satisfy so -called conservatives or people who are, you know, in the past may have been lock them up and throw away the key.

[677] Yeah, three strikes you're out, minimum sentencing, all those things.

[678] Right.

[679] So let's talk about another kind of unavoidable fact of our situation in this country, which is I'm assuming that there has to be just this tremendous incentive to plea out cases.

[680] because I have to imagine there's just, there isn't nearly enough courts to be processing nearly the amount of people who are arrested daily, right?

[681] There's a huge flow issue, isn't there?

[682] There is.

[683] And plea bargaining is really the oil that keeps things, the courts from totally collapsing.

[684] You know, everybody has a right to a trial.

[685] If everybody demanded that right to a trial, the system would grind to a halt.

[686] Right.

[687] But not everybody, frankly, wants a trial.

[688] You know, most people who are guilty admit they're guilty.

[689] Oh, really?

[690] Oh, yes.

[691] Most of them have already admitted before they ever come to me. Oh, really?

[692] They've admitted to the police.

[693] Most people who are guilty, it's like, yeah, I screwed up, but what kind of punishment is just.

[694] Right.

[695] And so what prosecutors sometimes will do, there's a game where they'll overcharge the more serious offense and then plea bargain and say, if you will give up your right to a trial, plead guilty, we will recommend X as a punishment.

[696] Okay.

[697] And if you want to go to trial, there's something called the trial penalty.

[698] There's been some focus on recently, which is that if you choose to go to trial, let's say, because you really are innocent, and then you lose, the stakes are higher.

[699] Like staying in a poker match, you know, you might be convicted of a much more serious offense, get much more time than if you had just taken this plea bargain.

[700] And particularly with misdemeanors where people, in states that have cash bail requirements, which is still most, people can sit in jail for months at a time, sometimes approaching the maximum sentence that they would get.

[701] Yeah, a lot of people get off on time served, right?

[702] They do.

[703] They do.

[704] And the sentence ends up being time served.

[705] And many people who are not guilty, plead guilty, because it's their chance to get out.

[706] If you want to trial fine, but you're going to have to sit even longer for a trial.

[707] or if you plead guilty to this offense, you'll get out today or, you know, very soon.

[708] Yeah, so we just had a debate about this and I'd love your opinion on it because we were watching the staircase and it was getting to the point in, I don't know, the latter episodes where they basically tell him you can do time served, just admit that you did it.

[709] And I was of the opinion, look at the frailty of the human ego.

[710] Like when you're really evaluating, am I going to spend time with my kids my last 10 years or am I going to have.

[711] the quote integrity of having never admitted to that to me in a utilitarian viewpoint that's just your ego fucking with you but i would imagine you might think that's an erosion of something so imagine you were in that situation i forget his name from the staircase michael peterson michael peterson and really the choices between being with your family and just having to live with the fact that you admitted to something now granted i also think he might have done it but that's neither here nor there.

[712] Let's assume he didn't do it.

[713] What are your thoughts about that?

[714] I don't even have to put myself in his position because I've had many clients that have been in that position.

[715] Okay, great.

[716] I'll give you one example, a guy who always maintained his innocence, who the innocence project worked on and got him, his conviction reversed because of these flaws in the trial.

[717] And then I was appointed to take over and defend him at trial.

[718] Well, By that time, he had spent five and a half years in prison or jail.

[719] And on the verge of his trial, which was for a first degree intentional homicide, life sentence, the prosecutor offered to reduce the charge down to a negligent kind of offense, homicide offense, that had a maximum penalty of five years.

[720] So he's done.

[721] So he can walk out that day or he can continue to maintain his innocence.

[722] And he thought, look, I put.

[723] my faith in the justice system once.

[724] I was wrongly convicted.

[725] Frankly, I have a better lawyer now, but I could still be convicted again.

[726] Stakes are just so high.

[727] The stakes are in, you know, and I thought we had a good case.

[728] I thought we could win at a trial.

[729] I was fired up.

[730] I was prepared and ready to go, but I absolutely understood his decision.

[731] At that point, the people that mattered to him.

[732] Yes.

[733] Knew he wasn't guilty, no matter what he did to try and get resolved this case.

[734] That was kind of my point.

[735] It's like you're actually trying to, you're, you're overvaluing strangers' opinion of you versus the people in your actual circle.

[736] Because the people in your actual circle, they long either thought you're innocent or guilty.

[737] So you're not, you saying that word only has the effect of making strangers think you did something potentially.

[738] And even if you go to trial and win.

[739] and are found not guilty.

[740] There are many people who will still think you're guilty and got off.

[741] Sure, OJ.

[742] Exactly.

[743] Hard to find a lot of people.

[744] Yeah, perfect example.

[745] And so, you know, so why?

[746] Why risk that for that small of the benefit?

[747] But is that an erosion?

[748] Like, I guess there's a similar analogy between, like, you know, union work.

[749] Like, you could make a scenario where you feel like you should break out of this union thing.

[750] like use an example just in our business like oh i go direct this like PSA to support this thing but i'll be kind of breaking my union commitment um i feel like it's worth it but am i walking them backwards of what they fought for like these kind of ethical things when someone does cave to the system to the threat are they emboldening that that side there is definitely that concern um and i think that's particularly true with with people who who are sitting in jail on misdemeanor cases who often those cases are very weak there's there's you know not a lot of time and investigation put into them because they are only misdemeanors quote unquote but people who can't afford their cash bail are willing to just take these plea deals and and so what what i what you happen it it does almost encourage more of the same because the prosecutors and it works it works and they know that they can resolve the case and they don't have to spend a whole lot of time on the case but it's a win for them it's it's it's not like it's a complete dismissal yeah so i would imagine there's a huge socioeconomic inequality and how the experience in court is right there there has to be a poor people lose poor people lose all the time that's Stephen avery's quote and making a murderer.

[751] And there's, you know, a certain amount of truth in that.

[752] But one of the things I think that's interesting in the staircase as a comparison to making a murderer is that there you see a very wealthy defendant.

[753] Right.

[754] Who, without, you know, spoiler alert, who did not win, despite his wealth and expert witnesses and excellent counsel and all that.

[755] So it's not like anybody has enough money to go up against the juggernaut of the government.

[756] let's say the kind of resources that the government can bring to bear in most instances is going to be more than any private citizen can do but when you are poor and you can't even afford a lawyer and you have no choice on the quality of lawyer you get and you may end up with somebody like Brendan Dassey got oh then you know you're stuck and you know I don't blame people for feeling like the system is stacked against them and they don't have a chance because they don't have money.

[757] Is there a practical solution to this inequity?

[758] Well, there is, you know, the last study I saw said that approximately 10 times the resources go to prosecution as compared to the defense.

[759] And some of it is money.

[760] You can improve the situation if you balance out.

[761] I mean, we are a system designed on, we're an adversary system of justice.

[762] What does that mean?

[763] That means that what you do is you put advocates on both sides adverse to each other and that that in theory if they're relatively equal advocates on both sides presenting it to a neutral fact finder judge or jury the truth will come out but when the scales are so tipped that the prosecution has much more research it's no longer a balanced adversary system anymore it's it's a it's a route you know it's it's it there's never had a chance to get started half the time.

[764] So some of it is resources.

[765] If you put more money into defending people who are too poor to be able to form their own lawyers, that would improve the system dramatically.

[766] But you also have to couple that with training of those advocates so that it's not just paying them more.

[767] They have to be better quality.

[768] They have to be trained.

[769] You have to understand how to defend something.

[770] It's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing, right?

[771] Because to attract the good attorneys.

[772] You have to pay them more.

[773] That's right.

[774] Yeah.

[775] Right.

[776] It's like the teacher.

[777] Same crisis with the teachers.

[778] Yes, it is very much.

[779] And, you know, and there's the debate of, you know, teachers unions and merit pay versus, you know, longevity and all of that.

[780] But so you do have to have certain standards in place so that the people who are getting paid to defend poor people are at least minimally capable of doing it.

[781] You know, we have this idea in the law.

[782] It's called ineffective assistance of counsel.

[783] So you have a right to counsel.

[784] You have a right to effective counsel on your behalf.

[785] If your lawyer...

[786] That's a powerful word right there, effective.

[787] That's hard to...

[788] It is, but what the devil's in the details when you try and define what's considered effective and what's ineffective.

[789] Yeah.

[790] And so what the Supreme Court has said is that you don't second -guess Monday morning quarterback what a lawyer's decision -making is.

[791] If they make, in hindsight, it looks like a bad judgment, but it was a strategy or tactic that they considered and investigated and advanced, then it's protected from any kind of, and the client, frankly, is screwed.

[792] Yeah, if it was a calculated risk that just didn't bear any fruit, well, tough shit.

[793] Right.

[794] But it's gotten water down to such an extent that there are cases that have held that a lawyer who falls asleep in the middle of the trial was not ineffective because, oh, well, that wasn't a very important part of the trial.

[795] Uh -huh.

[796] Sure, sure.

[797] I mean, it's insane.

[798] You know, I mean, we could talk all day about the flaws in the justice system and where we need to improve them.

[799] But starting with good counsel on both sides, you know, prosecutors are overworked, too.

[800] The whole justice system is really.

[801] Well, that's, so my wife and I were laying in bed last night talking about the fact that I was going to talk to you.

[802] And, you know, I tend to point this out because she's a very optimistic liberal.

[803] And I'm occasionally the voice going like, well, yeah, in a perfect.

[804] world, we'd be doing all these things better.

[805] That's from policing to prosecuting to defending to our borders scenario.

[806] Like there's innumerable issues this country has to confront, but we do not have unlimited resources.

[807] We don't have, you know, so at a certain point, sometimes you have to go like, well, it's not perfect, but it also might be going as well as it can go, considering we don't have unlimited resources.

[808] And if you go to other countries, you go, well, a lot more stuff's falling through the grass.

[809] there.

[810] So it is tricky to evaluate what's a realistic expectation of how well any number of these municipalities or whatever these government systems can function.

[811] Right.

[812] And it's a good point.

[813] And it's a constant challenge of, it's one of the reasons, frankly, that the indigent defense system in America has fallen in such disrepair.

[814] Indigent defense, meaning people who are too poor.

[815] Oh, right.

[816] Okay.

[817] To afford a lawyer.

[818] They are indigent.

[819] And they have a constitutional right to an effective attorney so that they must be provided at taxpayers' expense.

[820] And there's different models, whether it's, you know, salaried public defenders that work on a cases or whether they're lawyers who are appointed at an hourly rate, which is ridiculously low.

[821] Wisconsin now is it $40 an hour.

[822] It's the lowest in the country.

[823] I keep my, sincerely, I pay the house cleaner that more.

[824] Sure.

[825] Sure.

[826] Yeah.

[827] You can't get a plumber to come to your house for a house charge.

[828] And out of that, they're supposed to pay their staff if they have any, you know, their rent, their insurance or all that.

[829] And before they ever get a pay to die in themselves, the average last study I saw is over that of overhead, maybe $45 an hour in our state, $60 an hour nationally.

[830] So, but one reason that it's so low and it's been that way for so long is people charged with crimes.

[831] don't have the constituency in the legislature to lobby for money for us when there are people that want to put money for education or parks or police or courts, you know.

[832] And so it's difficult for people to, for legislators, policymakers, to be able to step back and say, this is an important value that we care about in our society, our democratic society, the courts and justice.

[833] and we're willing to invest more money in that even if it doesn't look like there's the immediate return that you would get by having a park right or a swimming pool or whatever it's a tough sell because probably the assumption of your average citizen myself included is that oh the vast majority of those people are guilty right but you know we don't assume that just you know a ton of innocent people are getting drawn drug in the court we would assume that's the anomaly i think well but you would have you would be surprised how many, you know, at what point do we accept that the reverse of what John Adams said, which is it's okay to convict some innocent people because we want to really get the guilty ones.

[834] So there's been various estimates of how many people in prison today are truly innocent, actually innocent.

[835] And it ranges from as low as 1 % to as high as I think I've seen six or 8%.

[836] Let's just look at the low end.

[837] There's two million people in is.

[838] And if one percent of them are innocent, that's 20 ,000 wrongly convicted people.

[839] Did you see that quick math, Monica?

[840] So fast, fast math.

[841] He could have really made a meal out of that.

[842] Yeah, I love fast math.

[843] Yeah, that's very hard to swallow.

[844] I have a quick question.

[845] Yeah, yeah.

[846] Quick question.

[847] Quick question.

[848] Do you feel like most humans are capable of really, really understanding and then really doing burden of proof.

[849] Like, are they executing burden of proof?

[850] Like, I sat on a jury, and in my experience, when we were deliberating, I was like, this is what's happening?

[851] These are the people making the decisions?

[852] Because a lot of people were not able to do that and not able to remove their own personal histories, ideas, and all these things, which I know is human.

[853] It's hard to do, but it's a good question.

[854] And it's a real challenge because, you know, after making a murder came out, I, you know, had the opportunity to speak with people from all over the world with all kinds of different justice systems and jury system.

[855] How do you?

[856] It's crazy.

[857] People are so biased.

[858] How do you do that?

[859] And we would rather have a judge like we have here.

[860] But, you know, we have a tradition in our common law history going back to the British system of relying on a jury of peers.

[861] And I frankly, you know, very rarely waive a jury trial in favor of a judge.

[862] Even if the people aren't real educated, it's better collectively, I think, to have 12 minds picking something apart than one who, who as a judge who sees things all the time might become jaded.

[863] For sure.

[864] Well, he starts playing the percentages or she starts playing the percentages, I would imagine.

[865] And one of the problems I think we have with jurors who don't understand, it is true, the presumption of innocence and the burdens of proof are not the sort of things that you use in your daily life.

[866] And for instance, another one, it will take a defendant's right not to testify.

[867] Yeah, exactly.

[868] So what happens if you're a parent and your kid comes up to you and your kids are fighting?

[869] And it's like, he started, no, no, she started it.

[870] And back and forth, you know, you want to hear both sides.

[871] And then you weigh them against each other and decide which one of your kids is lying.

[872] Yeah, probably both.

[873] And probably both.

[874] That's often the case.

[875] somewhere in the middle.

[876] But in court, you're not supposed to do that.

[877] You have this artificial scale where you're supposed to look at the state's evidence and see, does that convince you beyond a reasonable doubt, rather than weighing it against?

[878] And so that is different than what you normally do in life.

[879] But I think it can be done if you have a judge who cares enough about the system that can instruct them in a way that people understand.

[880] And it starts with jury selection.

[881] There's a judge who's now in retired or senior status federal judge in Iowa.

[882] He started off his jury selection in this manner.

[883] He would get up off of his bench, walk down to the defense counsel's table, shake, say nothing, shake hands with the defendant, turn and look at the jury and say, ladies and gentlemen are members of the jury, I just shook hands with an innocent man. Oh, that's powerful.

[884] Wow.

[885] Yeah.

[886] Now, if if Indian of you here can't apply that same principle then just don't be ashamed just raise your hands right now and this may not be the right jury for you and then he goes on you you need to convey these principles in a in a way that people can understand yeah well yeah it kind of connects more on an emotional to witness the the boss of the courtroom shake the hand of the accused is way more powerful than probably your explanation of it is and I also think that it should be mandatory viewing for every juror while they're waiting to be picked to watch 12 Angry Men, which I don't know if you've seen.

[887] It's a movie from the 50 with Henry Fonda.

[888] And, you know, just to see the dynamics of how things go on in a jury room, you know, you need to respect individuals' opinions when you're in that jury room.

[889] And one of the most difficult things it is for, I think, in my whole practice is jury selection because it's so complex.

[890] First of all, you're not picking juries.

[891] You're picking ones you don't want.

[892] Right.

[893] You're trying to deselect those.

[894] But you're trying to balance that against all of these other psychodynamics of social interactions.

[895] Who's going to be the strong one or two or three who are going to influence and make these others change their mind?

[896] Because when you get 12 people together in a room, particularly when they're originally strangers, it's very, very difficult to predict that.

[897] There's another ethical pitfall potentially injure deselection, right?

[898] We listen to this great, more perfect.

[899] Do you listen to that podcast?

[900] No, I should.

[901] You would love it.

[902] Yeah, it's the history of the Supreme Court, like very profound decisions that changed everything cases, yeah.

[903] And one of them is jury selection, which is if you are a good attorney, you're going to be using racial stereotypes.

[904] You're going to be doing things that in real life would be unethical, yet are almost required of you to provide a great defense for your...

[905] See, I would disagree with that.

[906] Okay, please tell me. Okay, because I think that there's a, number of studies now that have said that when you try and use stereotypes to pick juries or to de -select jurors, it just doesn't work because there may be certain cases where that might be true, you know, particularly if you want to use a racial stereotype, let's say, and you want people of color in, you know, for whatever reason I'll pick that person over or I'll keep that one rather than another.

[907] I mean, I know Jay's trial, I'm just throwing every white person off I can if I'm the lawyer.

[908] Well, when you have a case where the issue really is, want people to be able to understand, to be really peers of your client, understand what they go through and understand the distrust of police and historically the way that they have, you know, use race against people like your client, then that might be somewhat worthwhile.

[909] But on the other hand, you know, you find like, let's take a sexual assault case, for instance.

[910] It's a little bit counterintuitive, but in fact, middle -aged women, mothers, are the best jurors in those kinds of cases for the prosecution or the defense for the defense that is very counter and the worst are middle -aged men who are fathers and i'm talking about let's say you have a teenage 14 15 year old girl making these accusations and for various reasons you think that she's fabricated it she's in trouble she's trying to make you know get out of trouble and blame someone else whatever it might be the men tend to to hold their daughter up on a pedestal and whereas you know the mothers who have seen their own daughters lie and have seen all the peer pressures and things that make teenage girls say things, mean girls, you know, whatever, they're much more discerning and skeptical.

[911] And so there's an example where a stereotype doesn't work.

[912] Right.

[913] And it takes a little while in experience to be able to, in your career, to be able to get to that point.

[914] Yeah.

[915] So let's just, I want to talk about one of the, to me, the most heartbreaking aspect of making a murder, which is is Brendan Dassey.

[916] I just, that was almost too much for me to even consume because.

[917] And again, I don't know.

[918] Did you, have you happened to see the confessions on front line?

[919] Yes.

[920] Oh my God.

[921] Another one that I just could have cried for two hours.

[922] In a nutshell, they think they've found this guy who they think murdered his neighbor.

[923] He is a very docile sheep.

[924] They, after nine hours in an interrogation, room he admits something he didn't do they then test his blood to find out it's not him so they go back to him and they say well we know someone else was there who was in a badger him for eight hours and then he implies another guy and that guy too is a helpless lamb and then they end up putting like five or six guys in prison and they finally find the real killer and then they just sew it all together all through these confessions and prior to me seeing that i would have said well no one would confess to something they didn't do because I wouldn't do that but I also am an empowered six two dude who you know like there's all these things that I would not have thought of and I don't think there's anything more heartbreaking than this interrogation scenario that happens around the country and right just in and in Brendan Dassey's case seemingly some mental impairment too which I would just imagine right out of the gates there's no way you can unleash well it's fairly commonplace and You know, people say how unusual is that?

[925] Unfortunately, Brendan Dassey's experience is utterly commonplace.

[926] And something similar to it happens almost every day in this country.

[927] The whole idea that, you know, I don't know how many parents I have had come to me and say, they took my kid out of class and brought him down to the principal's office.

[928] And he's, you know, the police are there and they interrogate them.

[929] And no one calls me. And that's not legal, is it?

[930] Well, yes and no. It's not going to mean the case goes away.

[931] you can argue it in court and try and convince the court that there was a coercive confession, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[932] But then when you employ these, we have this technique that America is really like the last English -speaking part of the world that even uses this technique.

[933] It's called the Reed technique, REID, named after a guy who developed these psychologically coercive techniques only after the U .S. Supreme Court, believe it or not, took him until 1936 to rule that you couldn't beat confessions out of people.

[934] Oh, okay.

[935] And once they finally ruled that, then it was like, oh, no, now what are we going to do?

[936] How do we get conventions out of people?

[937] How do we get the answer we want?

[938] Yeah.

[939] And so they came up with these techniques, and it's based on all these flawed sort of pop, you know, social science that's all been debunked.

[940] The theory that, for instance, the police officers are better human lie detectors than ordinary people, when that's.

[941] and proven not to be the case.

[942] And so what they do.

[943] I would almost imagine they're worse because they get lied to more than most people.

[944] So they're actually more expecting of a lie.

[945] Yeah, more suspicious.

[946] So what they do is when they make up their mind and that the person they're talking to is lying, is the suspect, then it becomes this interrogation technique where they're taught not to accept denials.

[947] They are taught that they can lie.

[948] Right.

[949] Right.

[950] That's the part that seems...

[951] And that's troubling.

[952] They can lie about the evidence.

[953] They can say, Dax, you know, you're lying to us.

[954] We know you're guilty.

[955] We got your fingerprint on the cash register.

[956] They have a video of you that they don't have, right?

[957] They can say anything they want that they think will convince you to tell the truth.

[958] Now, if someone says they have a video of me doing something I haven't done, and I say, well, I know I haven't done it, but they fucking have a video that's at least convinced them.

[959] It's certainly going to convince a jury.

[960] I'm going to go down for this regardless.

[961] Well, here's the thinking.

[962] You know, you're, particularly if you're a poor person, person of color, you know, recent immigrant status or something of that nature.

[963] And you're thinking, oh, my God, they say they got my DNA or they got my fingerprint.

[964] Who are they going to believe?

[965] This guy or me. The marginalized member of society.

[966] Exactly.

[967] And then this cop is saying, look, you know, we'll go to bat for you.

[968] You can make it look however you want, which is what happened with Brendan.

[969] we know you're not really, you know, he made you do this, he forced you into all of this, but we know what happened you just need to tell us.

[970] And ultimately, people then confess falsely.

[971] Until DNA, most people believe just like you that why would anybody confess to something they didn't do.

[972] Right.

[973] And then studies, enough people were exonerated, and they started looking, well, you know, how many of those people confessed?

[974] Well, about 25 % of them had false.

[975] falsely confessed.

[976] And when you took a subset of juveniles, it was about 43 % falsely confessed.

[977] And so then you start looking, well, why?

[978] What's going on in those rooms?

[979] Most of these interrogations aren't recorded like they were with Brendan.

[980] That was new, right, that that law had just...

[981] That law in Wisconsin just changed six months before that.

[982] I talk about that in my book, how that came about.

[983] That was a real battle I fought for for years.

[984] But still, in this country, about half of the states do not require the police to record their interrogations.

[985] And so all of these things happen outside of the jury's view.

[986] They don't really understand.

[987] And frankly, the sad part in Brendan's case is you, the viewers of making a murderer, saw more of his interrogation, more parts of his interrogation that were important than his own jury did.

[988] Oh, that's...

[989] So, you know, his own jury never saw his mother come into the room and say, you know, they got to my head.

[990] and start be canting immediately.

[991] Yeah.

[992] So it's so heartbreaking.

[993] It seems to be the most malicious of all these different things that could happen as to...

[994] It is.

[995] And I don't think anyone also even takes into account that none of us have ever sat in a room for eight hours.

[996] Yeah, who knows what you would say.

[997] You just can't really probably even imagine what the mental strain of being bullied for eight hours and what you'd be, you just want out of that fucking room at some point.

[998] Like your immediate goal probably supersedes, your long -term goal.

[999] That's right.

[1000] And particularly what they found is sort of a confluence of the techniques being psychologically coercive and tricky and the subject being vulnerable in some way or another, whether it's youth or mental capabilities or sometimes, in fact, very often both, as in Brendan's case where.

[1001] And again, very marginalized status in general in society, I'm sure, has to.

[1002] Right.

[1003] And, you know, lack of experience with the police.

[1004] And if you've never been, you know, if you're sort of street tough and you've been in front of police before, it's, you know, you're smart enough to say, I'm not talking.

[1005] First of all.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] I want a lawyer here.

[1008] But, but, you know, there is hope.

[1009] I don't want everybody to be, to take the Brendan, that's the experience and think that there's, you know, there's no hope because that scenario can be changed if people want it to be changed.

[1010] And so in California and in Illinois, they have now passed laws that prohibit interrogation of youth under a certain age, or maybe in certain types of cases like in Illinois, any sex or homicide case, 15 or under, you have to have a lawyer present from the get.

[1011] From the get go.

[1012] And similar in California, Jerry Brown signed a law recently.

[1013] You know, advocates think it should be higher, 17 or 18.

[1014] But, you know, we're making baby steps now if it's 15 or younger.

[1015] or 16, whatever it might be, you know, you just need to protect people.

[1016] Because the thing to keep in mind is, in most instances, when somebody's wrongly convicted, that means that if there was a crime at all, the real perpetrator got off.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] That's another thing people blow right past when they think about that.

[1019] And the Stephen Avery case was a perfect example of that because in his first wrongful conviction when he spent 18 years in prison for a rape, the real.

[1020] real perpetrator who should have been prosecuted, did rape again, right?

[1021] Did rape again and was a suspect in a homicide in North Carolina that was never proven, but who knows however many crimes that he did.

[1022] And, you know, you multiply that by 20 ,000 around the country.

[1023] There's a lot of people's lives who are ruined and perpetrators who are getting off and committing additional crimes.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] Tell me about your book.

[1026] Tell me about why you wrote it and what, what it was that you were.

[1027] you were hoping to get across or help move the pendulum in one direction or another?

[1028] Well, I, you know, I feel like I've been lucky enough to have an amazing career with all kinds of interesting cases and experiences.

[1029] And I'd always wanted to write a memoir of some sort.

[1030] After making a murderer, it came out.

[1031] It seemed like this was the right time.

[1032] Is it been a little bit interesting to you to see the appetite that Americans have for this topic?

[1033] Like, we've had a lot of successful now.

[1034] Yes.

[1035] docu dramas of you know involving very much and the thing that was a little bit surprising to me was that my co -counsel dean strang and i became these heroes well i that's my last question i'm okay we'll talk about that yeah um and when we were just doing our job and there's lots of other people like that and partly what i hope to do with this book is it's it's a little bit of make the making of a criminal defense lawyer what what i went through so i talk you know certainly about a murderer in the book, but I also use other cases I've had where there are similar flaws of our justice system, and I use that to illustrate what's going on and why.

[1036] And I have suggestions at the end of ways we can try and individually and collectively improve our system.

[1037] But I also really wanted people to understand that criminal defense attorneys can be ethical, honest, people of integrity that have an important role in our justice system because that's not the way Hollywood, frankly, has portrayed criminal defense attorneys for a long, long time, really almost since Perry Mason days.

[1038] And there's been some interest in doing a television series based upon my book.

[1039] There's been a pilot written and based upon a husband and wife, criminal defense attorney, you and Kristen could be in this.

[1040] Oh, here we go.

[1041] Like we can package this whole thing.

[1042] And, you know, the idea that it would portray a criminal defense attorney as somebody who is important for all of these reasons in, you know, holding up not just the individual that they're defending, but the whole system of justice.

[1043] Well, yeah, I was going to say, I think that's the part people miss that it's not actually solely self -serving to that client is, again, you are the co -pilot of the legal system.

[1044] You're our collective representative that we always do have a presumption of innocence and that those.

[1045] burdens of proof are met and that's to protect all of us if we should ever find ourselves in a crazy situation yeah i mean to borrow a phrase of one of the associations i belong to we are liberty's last champion in many ways you know we are there defending the individual against the government and we have some strange bedfellows these days with libertarians sure you know who believe government is encroaching too much Antonin Scalia one of the most conservative supreme court justices, believe it or not, is probably one of the best for the criminal defense field of my lifetime.

[1046] Because he believed that he really strengthened the right to counsel, how important it was, the right to confront your accusers in court, went back to what the founders believed.

[1047] So what I'm trying to do in this book is, I think, change the mindset of people about our criminal justice system and the role of a criminal defense.

[1048] attorney.

[1049] And, you know, one of the things that's been most rewarding to me from this whole experience of the notoriety of making a murderer is the young people who've written to me and said, I'm really interested in the law now.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] And particularly criminal law.

[1052] You know, because I'm at a point in my career where I'm seeing a horizon at the end point.

[1053] Sure.

[1054] And I look back and I see all this underfunded.

[1055] It's, you know, it's not a sexy position that people want to, a career, it's going to be interesting.

[1056] You know, they're going to work hard and not going to make a lot of money.

[1057] And so it's like, you look at them, it's like in baseball, you know, you look at your farm system and it's kind of thin.

[1058] Yeah, yeah.

[1059] You need to restock it.

[1060] Yeah.

[1061] Well, there was a great, great documentary called Hot Coffee.

[1062] Did you happen to see that?

[1063] No. And it was largely about civil lawsuits and how successfully corporations have been at convincing all of us that all these lawsuits are frivolous.

[1064] Oh, I am familiar with this.

[1065] And tort reform and all these things that have passed.

[1066] The McDonald's hot coffee spilling, yes.

[1067] Which is total bullshit.

[1068] The story that I had been told, you know, this woman just spilled coffee on herself and walked away with $3 million.

[1069] That is what I carried around for 25 years.

[1070] And that was not the story in any shape.

[1071] But they successfully convinced us of that.

[1072] And the point they made in that documentary, which is one that you're making now, that I think people need to be really mindful of is that we have three branches of government.

[1073] and you, the citizen, has nearly zero sway over the other two.

[1074] You're not going to get a bill pass through the House.

[1075] I don't care how many times you call your representative.

[1076] But there is this last play, especially with civil lawsuits, where you can challenge General Motors, you can make them meet you in court.

[1077] And if they've done something that is unethical or dangerous, that you can still mono -imano with these megalists, be them government agencies or huge, corporations it is the last place in our system where a citizen can challenge injustice right and they try to erode that corporations try to erode that actively and so do you know all kinds of entities right and and i use this as an example in my book of where people can make a difference is um not just as a litigant against some big corporation but as a juror you know people hate that jury summons when they get in how do i get out of this right Yeah.

[1078] Doesn't pay any money.

[1079] It's boring.

[1080] It's going to sit around all this waiting.

[1081] There's a lot of waiting time.

[1082] But it's the one chance as a citizen that you can directly impact, one of our most important, the judicial branch.

[1083] You know, you're actively involved and your voice is heard and people will listen to what you have to say.

[1084] And so, you know, I really wish people wouldn't look at it like it's the root canal that they don't want to have.

[1085] I'm shamefully in that category.

[1086] I'd rather shovel your driveway for.

[1087] a whole winter.

[1088] But that's a great, that's a great thing to remember and something that I could certainly do better on.

[1089] Okay, my last, my last question for you, I've had you for a long time and I appreciate that.

[1090] Were you shocked at all by Dean's huge sex appeal?

[1091] Did that come as a surprise to you?

[1092] My wife is in love with him in all ways.

[1093] She also likes you, but you're more in the category I'm in.

[1094] You and I are stuck in this category.

[1095] And Dean really.

[1096] is at the forefront of her all of her carnal desires.

[1097] Well, you know, your wife is responsible and in large part for this enormous internet heartthrob sensation for both of them because she, someone did this tweet, this meme of, they took a picture of us actually at a very depressing part of the trial was at the verdict press conference.

[1098] Uh -huh.

[1099] And they put hearts around it and girl crush and all this and then she retweeted it with a quote like I'm going to get a locker in 2016 just so I can put this up on it and it got retweeted millions of times and you know there was it was really surreal there was I forget if it was glamour or BuzzFeed something where they are but yeah BuzzFeed there's been a million there's there are these polls like you know are you are you a Dean or Jerry or a Jerry girl you know and Team Jerry team, you know, and was that fun for you?

[1100] And did it irritate your wife?

[1101] Dean Strang and the sheets, Jerry Butting, and the streets.

[1102] Oh, that is fantastic.

[1103] And I also even saw like there's a whole there's a whole like style revolution based on you guys, right, called like Norm Corps.

[1104] And there's people who are obsessed with how you dress and they're mimicking how you dress.

[1105] I mean, I can't imagine worse is a real event to happen to somebody.

[1106] Right.

[1107] To a lawyer.

[1108] a lawyer.

[1109] Yeah.

[1110] Not to like an actor.

[1111] Yeah, trying a case in northern Wisconsin.

[1112] I mean, how do you even digest all that?

[1113] Well, it was very strange.

[1114] I mean, a lot of it was very funny.

[1115] I mean, people had just a lot of fun with it and I tried to be good -natured about it.

[1116] And, you know, Dean was that's hard to do, isn't it?

[1117] It was more like two to one in favor of Dean as a sex symbol.

[1118] But I had my followers.

[1119] Look to your right.

[1120] This is a poll they did in a magazine if people want to date.

[1121] I mean, 72 % said no. So I've been there with you.

[1122] Okay.

[1123] So, but.

[1124] as my the point I made is 28 % want to date me that's pretty darn high that's exactly right it's all the matter of your perspective yeah that's a lot of you that's a lot of bodies to have all these young beautiful women like unsolicited was like where were you all when I was young and single yes groupies that would hang out like we were rock stars coming out you know on our shows it was amazing uh -huh and I still don't quite understand why you know I Well, I do.

[1125] There's a, there's a chivalry to it.

[1126] There's a, there's a valiant nature to defending, uh, the week.

[1127] There, there, it is a very, that's what superheroes do.

[1128] It's like what knights are supposed to do if they're, you know, living by the code.

[1129] I can definitely see where like protecting the downtrodden is very attractive.

[1130] No, did your, was your wife able to have a great sense of humor about it?

[1131] She was good, good nature to about it.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] Uh, very good nature.

[1134] She said, I saw that in you long before they did.

[1135] Yeah, that's what my wife says, get in line.

[1136] Yeah, right.

[1137] Exactly.

[1138] You guys are, I got on at the ground floor.

[1139] Y 'all are catching up.

[1140] So she was good -natured about it.

[1141] And, you know, the groupies didn't bother her.

[1142] She went with me on some of the speaking tours when we went to Australia, New Zealand.

[1143] There was this one really cute couple of girls that hung out for an hour after the show to wait for us.

[1144] And they greeted us with these, these, homemade t -shirts very nicely down where they had both of it was called justice warriors and this picture of dean and i on the shirts and i was like um you know so that was fun yeah i i hope that you were able to enjoy that because i do think it you know i can't imagine you got paid for the stephen avery case in capacity right well we did we were paid we actually were paid out of the settlement that he got from his civil rights case oh okay but that was that was pending while you signed on right there couldn't have been an expectation of getting paid.

[1145] No, what happened was that he settled his $36 million lawsuit for $400 ,000.

[1146] Oh, boy.

[1147] And then his civil rights lawyers took their expenses and there was a total of like 240 left that was split between Dean and I. I had $100 ,000.

[1148] He did $120 ,000.

[1149] Because of his sex symbol status.

[1150] Exactly.

[1151] He wanted to.

[1152] We had to negotiate that.

[1153] Commensurate with his sex appeal.

[1154] He also took on the risk of other expenses.

[1155] His law firm was, was more capable of doing that.

[1156] But when we figured out the hours, Dean figured it out there was something like $9 an hour.

[1157] That's pretty good.

[1158] That's a pretty good living.

[1159] But it wasn't the money that we took the case for.

[1160] Right.

[1161] And, you know, it's not like Netflix paid us a penny either.

[1162] Yeah, yeah.

[1163] That wasn't part of the...

[1164] That's why I'm saying.

[1165] I'm so happy to see that there was some kind of downstream reward that was unforeseen.

[1166] And it's rare that someone does then get rewarded in some capacity for having done the right thing.

[1167] It's kind of life affirming and encouraging.

[1168] It is.

[1169] It's been very encouraging.

[1170] And like I said, especially when young people are interested in my career as a career choice.

[1171] Yes.

[1172] Well, as I said, I began reading it last night, Illusion of Justice.

[1173] And truly, it's a very fun read.

[1174] Like, it's just very well written.

[1175] I told you that before we even sat down that I was shocked to see you were such a natural writer.

[1176] But it's really great.

[1177] I assume you actually wrote it.

[1178] Yes.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] You can tell me about there.

[1181] I had a very good editor, though, I'll tell you that.

[1182] You did.

[1183] Oh, sure.

[1184] Yeah.

[1185] And that helped shape a lot of the structure and organization.

[1186] And did you enjoy it?

[1187] Will you write more books?

[1188] I hope so.

[1189] This was interesting.

[1190] I was, it was a crazy time in my life where I was flying all over the world doing these talks.

[1191] And I did a lot of the writing on airplanes and in hotels, frankly.

[1192] All of the source material was online in this case because everybody put all the transcripts and documents, most of them anyway.

[1193] I had some that didn't make it into the court process, but it was easy enough to be able to travel and write, but it is hard when you're also practicing lawyer, which I am, with real cases they're ongoing to say, oh, I'm going to work on my own personal book now instead of my client's case.

[1194] Right.

[1195] It's a challenge.

[1196] So maybe I will do some more writing.

[1197] I hope to, but I can't juggle both.

[1198] I can't juggle both.

[1199] that I would need to do less of law practice in order to write more of a book, more books.

[1200] Right.

[1201] Well, I wish you a ton of luck, and I'm really glad there are folks like you that are so smart and so willing to come to the aid of people who need your voice.

[1202] And I hope we talk to you again.

[1203] Thank you.

[1204] I appreciate it.

[1205] Thanks, Jerry.

[1206] And now my favorite part of the show, The Fact Check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1207] Ain't nothing but a fact check.

[1208] Like, baby, to load down G so we crazy.

[1209] Death Row is the label that pays me unfaedable.

[1210] So please don't try to phase me. Back with the facts at hand.

[1211] Monica is checking at my man. She's understanding.

[1212] I don't know.

[1213] I went off the rails at the end, but boy, my favorite part of that song, I've talked about it on Twitter a couple times, but my favorite part of that song, it's so interesting.

[1214] They basically in the song, they kill a bunch of people, and then they switch their minds back into freak mode.

[1215] Like right after, in the song, they're about to make some bodies turn cold.

[1216] Oof.

[1217] But then they switch their mind back into freak mode.

[1218] And then they go to a hotel with some gals.

[1219] And I just thought, that was a very quick transition from murder to lovemaking.

[1220] Too quick.

[1221] Yeah, very, very quick.

[1222] Too fast.

[1223] I'm not a. You're not a fan of murder followed by lovemaking?

[1224] You're so traditional.

[1225] Oh, a stick in the mud.

[1226] Okay.

[1227] Making a Murder, Season 2 is on right now on Netflix.

[1228] I'm really pumped for us to start that.

[1229] Me too.

[1230] Yeah.

[1231] So you talk about the birth of forensics, and there was a book you said about it, and you said it was called Killing Shepherds.

[1232] It's called The Killer of Little Shepherds.

[1233] Okay.

[1234] A true crime story and the birth of forensic science by Douglas Starr.

[1235] That's kind of a terrible title considering the last name.

[1236] Well, but there's an H in there.

[1237] I know, but if you're just saying it.

[1238] That's true.

[1239] Killing of Little Daxes.

[1240] I wonder if that was the working title.

[1241] Maybe.

[1242] Yeah, this is a, it's a gruesome read.

[1243] I mean, you got to like it gruesome.

[1244] It's like that book.

[1245] It's horrific what you could get away with back then before there was telephones and police departments that spoke to one another.

[1246] Yeah, you could just do anything.

[1247] You could go on a murdering spree here in Los Felis and then just go over to Silver Lake the next day and no one would know.

[1248] No one would know.

[1249] Yeah, geez.

[1250] Well, one thing I wanted to say is after talking to Jerry, but also after having been on a trial.

[1251] Yeah, as a juror, not as a litigant or a defendant or a prosecutor.

[1252] Correct.

[1253] As a juror, juror.

[1254] Juror.

[1255] Have you seen that 30 -Rack?

[1256] Willie -wooey -wooey -good juror.

[1257] No. It's a very funny part in 30 -rack where they're trying to.

[1258] to say they wrote some they wrote a script called the rural juror and no one could say it the rural juror it is so funny um that show is so brilliant oh really was pound for pound joke for joke so good anyway i sat on a jury and i walked away from that experience thinking all of my friends who are busy with their jobs and get the summons and throw it in the trash or ignore it are not my friends anymore and I don't like them okay because it's so important I know I know I'm talking to you I know you are I think everyone I think everyone knows that you're talking to me I'm talking to a lot of people not just you now I know it says in the constitution that we're entitled to a jury of our peers Yeah.

[1259] But I actually think there should be professional jurors.

[1260] I really do.

[1261] We've talked about this before.

[1262] And I agree with you in theory.

[1263] In practice, I don't think it's possible.

[1264] You don't?

[1265] There's too much.

[1266] I have to imagine the expenditure of mailing all those notices, enforcing all that thing, having all the people come in, telling them to leave, tell them to come back, throwing them out of the thing.

[1267] I can't imagine that that would be more efficient than having L .A.'s got a hundred full -time.

[1268] jurors.

[1269] I mean, it's not like there's...

[1270] No, but there are cases all...

[1271] I mean, the...

[1272] But the courthouse is only so big, right?

[1273] There's how many...

[1274] How many courtrooms are in the...

[1275] There's like a bunch of floors, maybe...

[1276] A billion?

[1277] There's a billion floors.

[1278] Okay.

[1279] Within that, there is a billion rooms.

[1280] And then within that...

[1281] Okay.

[1282] No, there's a lot.

[1283] That's why all these...

[1284] That's why most of these cases in general get, like, plead out.

[1285] Well, of course.

[1286] It's like there's not enough resources.

[1287] is to even get what we have now.

[1288] Even 10 % of the cases brought could never be tried.

[1289] So that's the problem with professional juries.

[1290] And also it would have to pay so much that people would choose that as their job.

[1291] But I think it should also, we have an abundance of fucking lawyers in this country and people going to law school.

[1292] And I think part of their education, like you do a residency as a doctor, I think they should have to.

[1293] I think that should be the pool of people that have to go sit on juries.

[1294] But they can't.

[1295] It's their class.

[1296] It's part of their credit Because they got to be jurors Because they know the law Right, but that's still That is not even close To the amount of people That it would require It's just a numbers issue I think in theory It's great Because you do need people Who know That can't be out foxed Sorry a Mac truck Just crashed into the house That was another foolie Oh yeah yeah You know what it is Guys I don't want to make anyone Oh my Jennifer I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable But I've had a kink in my neck Do you know I've had this cute coming?

[1297] Oh, there we go.

[1298] Oh, wow.

[1299] Oh, much more fluid now.

[1300] Good, good.

[1301] I've been gotten by that trick before where someone hides a water bottle on their hand.

[1302] And then they like, they keep, like the friends of mine that have succeeded in tricking me, they're masters because they act like their neck's been hurting for like 15 minutes before this.

[1303] Slow burn.

[1304] Yeah, a lot of foundation they lay, a lot of track they lay.

[1305] And then they get that water bottle behind their neck.

[1306] And they go, and they crack that.

[1307] I've had a full -fledged panic attack more than once.

[1308] I thought someone broke their own neck right in front of me. I was expecting to see their head just fall to the side.

[1309] You know what's very upsetting?

[1310] Like, I don't think I would even notice.

[1311] Oh, geez.

[1312] Oh, my God.

[1313] You know what's interesting is you, you, yeah, you and I, we found are so different in that when we watch things, I immediately pinpoint different things about the person's anatomy.

[1314] Yeah.

[1315] And you don't even see it.

[1316] Some of these things, even when you're pointing it out.

[1317] It takes a lot of pointing before you recognize.

[1318] And I was watching TV with my mom the other day who was in town and I realized where I got it from because you can't watch a frame of anything without her going.

[1319] Is that guy wearing an eyeliner?

[1320] What's going on with the tone of his forehead?

[1321] What's the like she is all over what's happening with people's faces.

[1322] Interesting.

[1323] And my parents don't do that at all.

[1324] Well, it's just all white people on TV.

[1325] Maybe they just, they assume they look, they just can't see.

[1326] Because like when they're watching friends, they realize that there are six different people on the show?

[1327] No. Okay.

[1328] No. They don't even do that in life.

[1329] It's actually, I love that about that.

[1330] You're proud of that of yourself.

[1331] I'm really, well, I mean, I don't know if I'm proud of it of myself because it leads to weird stuff.

[1332] Like, I'm just not observant.

[1333] Like, I would not know if you actually cracked your neck open or something.

[1334] What if my head fell sideways to my shoulder?

[1335] It would take me six minutes.

[1336] Oh.

[1337] Yeah, it's so interesting.

[1338] But I like that I grew up in an environment where, like, people were not picked on ever.

[1339] And it was not like they are against picking on.

[1340] It's like they're not seeing it.

[1341] So they're never pointing it out and they're never doing that.

[1342] And I really like that.

[1343] Yeah, I think that's great.

[1344] But I also, and that's where you and I always argue when I'm pointing this step up, it's like, I don't even be mean necessarily.

[1345] I'm just like being observed.

[1346] I'm like, oh, that guy's earlobes are seven inches.

[1347] long that's yeah sometimes I think it's mean because the barometer is if they were sitting there and you said it would it hurt their feelings and I'm going to say 90 % of the time yes you can't watch TV that way where you're assuming everyone that's on TV's in your living room I watch TV that way okay so you're saying like if you turn on a news channel we know which one and you think it's preposterous what they're saying sure that you shouldn't have that opinion because if they're in front of you would not want to say that to them.

[1348] No, if they were in front of me and they were saying that, I would totally say whatever I was saying to them.

[1349] You would.

[1350] I just made a bad point.

[1351] Terrible analogy.

[1352] One point, one point, Monica.

[1353] Love 15.

[1354] We just learned about that two Thursdays ago.

[1355] So anyway, just please go serve your jury.

[1356] Yeah.

[1357] Okay.

[1358] You should.

[1359] Jury duty.

[1360] It sucks, but it's also sort of interesting.

[1361] Well, I actually found it very interesting.

[1362] And I just want smart people on those juries.

[1363] Yeah.

[1364] They're making all the decisions and it's scary.

[1365] Someone in real person's life is hanging in the balance as they say on court dramas.

[1366] So the conviction and incarceration rates for white versus black people.

[1367] A 2014 University of Michigan law school study.

[1368] Ooh, really quick.

[1369] Great university.

[1370] I'm going to believe this study.

[1371] Great university.

[1372] 2014, so four years out.

[1373] But still, found that all other factors be.

[1374] equal.

[1375] Black offenders were 75 % more likely to face a charge carrying a mandatory minimum sentence than a white offender who committed the same crime.

[1376] Seventy -five percent.

[1377] It's almost twice as likely.

[1378] The United States currently houses the world's largest prison population with an incarceration rate of roughly 666 inmates per 100 ,000 people.

[1379] Among whites, the rate is 450 inmates per 100 ,000 people.

[1380] The incarceration rate for black people, the incarceration rate is over five times higher at two thousand three hundred and six inmates per a hundred thousand people five times higher rough that is so yeah and you know the thing about this I think it's some sometimes and I don't agree with this opinion but I've heard people dismiss these is going oh well black people are committing more crimes that's their they deduce that from it but there's also a ton of data maybe you have some on the on the burner right now which is even when they get tried for the same crime with the same evidence the the conviction right is just dramatically higher.

[1381] That's what that was the first part.

[1382] Were you listening?

[1383] Yeah.

[1384] Were you listening?

[1385] 75 % more likely to face a charge.

[1386] Well, that was for a minimum sentencing.

[1387] But even if two guys get tried with, you know, jaywalking, one's white, one's black, the odds of the black guy getting found guilty of that crime versus the white guy.

[1388] But this is higher stakes.

[1389] Yeah, minimum sentencing, which we just watched a documentary about that.

[1390] That was sad.

[1391] The sentence.

[1392] Yeah, minimum, minimum sentencing is.

[1393] Dicey.

[1394] Jerry said two million people are incarcerated right now.

[1395] In 2016, the prison policy initiative estimated that in the United States about 2 ,298 ,300 people were incarcerated.

[1396] It's almost one in a hundred.

[1397] It's almost 1 % of our population is behind bars.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] Yikes.

[1400] Oh, and then you said it's $30 ,000 a year to keep someone behind bars.

[1401] According to the Vera Institute of Justice, incarceration costs an average of more than 31 ,000 per inmate per year nationwide.

[1402] In some states, it's as much as 60 ,000.

[1403] Yeah, I think in California and New York, it's really expensive, yeah.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] And we talked about the percentage of violent crime versus drug offenses.

[1406] And I did pull up a visual aid.

[1407] From the onion?

[1408] From prison policy .org.

[1409] And say prison's violent crime is more, which was interesting to me, percentage -wise.

[1410] Meaning it was a, okay, it was the majority of people incarcerated have committed a violent crime.

[1411] Do you know what percentage?

[1412] Well, we could do it.

[1413] Some quick math.

[1414] I'd love to.

[1415] You want to?

[1416] Yeah, absolutely.

[1417] Okay.

[1418] State prisons, 1 ,316 ,000.

[1419] That's the pool.

[1420] 1 ,316 ,000.

[1421] 1 .3 million.

[1422] Sure.

[1423] Yes.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] Violent crimes are 718 ,000 of those.

[1426] Okay.

[1427] Okay, so that's about 65%.

[1428] Wow, that was fast.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] That was really fast.

[1431] I feel semi -confident with that estimation.

[1432] I can't check you on it without pulling out my phone and doing that.

[1433] So sure.

[1434] Really quick, just for fun, because it takes one second.

[1435] So it was -718 ,000.

[1436] Okay, divided by 1 .3 million 55%.

[1437] Okay.

[1438] Okay.

[1439] So I was off by 10 points.

[1440] That's all right.

[1441] Not very good.

[1442] But not terrible either.

[1443] No, that was good.

[1444] And then drug offenses are 200 ,000.

[1445] Okay.

[1446] So that's about 18 % or something.

[1447] So that was interesting because we had said violent crime was not.

[1448] And that's also state prison.

[1449] Yeah.

[1450] Federal has got way more.

[1451] It's definitely more.

[1452] In the convicted category for federal prisons, drugs are 82 ,000 and violent is 13.

[1453] Okay.

[1454] There we got.

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] That's a big gap there.

[1457] Anyway, so yeah, hmm, interesting, right?

[1458] Yeah, five times as many drug offenders in federal prison than violent crime.

[1459] And again, people would probably say, like, well, there's more people doing bad drugs.

[1460] Like, they wouldn't see a problem with it.

[1461] They would just say, like, there's a big drug problem here.

[1462] Yeah, and people need to be in prison.

[1463] Right.

[1464] And that's horseshit.

[1465] That's not how you deal with a drug problem.

[1466] Exactly.

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] You don't deal with medical issues by.

[1469] incarcerating people.

[1470] Yeah, I agree.

[1471] Speaking of that, Serial season three is so good.

[1472] Isn't season three S -town?

[1473] No, that's its own thing.

[1474] Serial season three came out maybe a month, month and a half ago.

[1475] Each episode is about some element of the Cleveland, I want to say.

[1476] Cleveland court system.

[1477] Okay.

[1478] So, like, one, first episode was about a case and then the second episode was about one of the judges in that system.

[1479] Really good.

[1480] It's like more perfect.

[1481] It's kind of like more perfect.

[1482] Yeah, a little bit.

[1483] And it's spelled S -E -R.

[1484] I -A -L.

[1485] Because a lot of people on Twitter will go, I looked for cereal, C -E -R.

[1486] Oh, because we talk about it kind of a lot.

[1487] Serialized.

[1488] Yeah, well, what we're recommending is short for serialized.

[1489] Yeah.

[1490] The other version is breakfast cereal.

[1491] What we were talking about?

[1492] How much do we love to podcast about breakfast cereal?

[1493] And it's just cereal grains in general.

[1494] Really, you could because there was that great movie about Kellogg in Battle Creek, Michigan, where most of the breakfast cereals are made.

[1495] Yeah.

[1496] And he had some weird health retreat back then.

[1497] And he was obsessed with the consistency of your poop, your bowel movement.

[1498] That's why you're like, yeah, all of his medical prescriptions involved evaluating your stool and then trying to get it to be a certain consistency.

[1499] Matthew Broderick was in it.

[1500] Due to the serial?

[1501] It was Sir Anthony Hopkins and Matthew Broderick.

[1502] It was a pretty interesting movie.

[1503] So it makes me think you could, you actually could do one.

[1504] All right.

[1505] Let's do one.

[1506] On Kellogg.

[1507] I bet there's a murder too.

[1508] And anytime you've got like a family empire, I bet there's a murder.

[1509] Always, yeah.

[1510] Oh, Jerry told a really powerful anecdote during this episode, talking about burden of proof, A case, the judge came down at the beginning of the trial, went and shook the defendant's hand.

[1511] Remember this?

[1512] Yes, humanizing him?

[1513] Yeah, he said, ladies and gentlemen, I just shook hands with an innocent man. Oh, so cool.

[1514] So good.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] It should be required.

[1517] Mm -hmm.

[1518] Now, again, if you're the family member of a murder victim, I know.

[1519] I'm sure you feel otherwise.

[1520] And I, too, would feel that way.

[1521] but we as a collective have to make better decisions, and that is the system works best when everyone's presumed innocent.

[1522] Yeah, yeah.

[1523] Also, Norm Corr was not invented after Jerry and Dean.

[1524] It wasn't?

[1525] No. That's a bummer.

[1526] Not at all.

[1527] I would love to think that they started a fashion movement.

[1528] You want it.

[1529] You basically said that, but they didn't.

[1530] I think this will be a fact I ignore.

[1531] I still, yeah, I really like it.

[1532] It makes you upset when you do that.

[1533] It does?

[1534] Yeah, for real.

[1535] Well, but listen, I can see that you're right, but it's so fun thinking those two cutie pies started a fashion movement.

[1536] I know.

[1537] It's like sometimes fanny, fairy tales.

[1538] I believe in fairy tales.

[1539] You know, you can, no. You can't because this is, you know, indicative of a larger problem in the world that happens where people want to believe things, even though they hear the truth, but they don't want to believe that truth.

[1540] Confirmation bias.

[1541] So Normcore is not.

[1542] invented by Gary and Dean.

[1543] Although they do fit that mold very nicely.

[1544] Very nicely.

[1545] Maybe the two best examples of Normcore.

[1546] Well, most people say Seinfeld is the best example.

[1547] That's like the academy.

[1548] Seinfeld when he was.

[1549] Well, that's not entirely true because in context, he wasn't, he was actually dressing semi -hip.

[1550] Back then?

[1551] Yeah, back then.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] It wasn't like you noticed, oh, what's this guy doing?

[1554] Whereas with Jerry and Dean, you're, you were like, oh, look, you were really aware of that they were in Norm Corps.

[1555] Well, no, I see, I totally disagree.

[1556] I think it's exactly the same.

[1557] They're just wearing clothes that are completely average.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] And not sticking out.

[1560] Okay.

[1561] The bottom line is I love both those guys and I loved how they dress.

[1562] And I thought it was like, I looked at it and I was like, that's what a person should think.

[1563] Like, who gives a fine fuck what's covering my genitalia?

[1564] Let's just get on with the important business of saving.

[1565] Meandies.

[1566] With the exception of me undies, you should always be pampering.

[1567] yourself with right that's it that's it yeah went out on the norm core way to save the best I'll tell everyone I'll be honest about it that there was a fact in there about ballistics and only 30 or 40 percent have to match and I just couldn't find that statistic I asked my aunt who's a lawyer and she didn't respond on my email so there's no way for me to know I'm sorry that sounds unlike her you get lost in the shuffle or she was just like I can't can't be an endless source of it maybe she's sick of it what if every time she saw a commercial on tv she'd text you hey i'm just watching this commercial for pizza hut you know a lot about commercials do you think they were at a pizza hut or that was a set i know i do feel bad but this is part of my job i also by the way we saw your other commercial while we're on our lovers retreat we saw your ibn commercial oh really we squealed with joy you did we did that's so cute yeah it's it's starts the commercial.

[1568] And you always want to put your best foot forward, which in this case was from Manicapadman.

[1569] That's nice.

[1570] Yeah, it was great.

[1571] And it was on the World Series.

[1572] Really?

[1573] You keep ending up in all these big, big playoff games because you were in a bunch of football games.

[1574] Dang, girl.

[1575] Time to go shopping for some Normcore.

[1576] Normcore.

[1577] Stop doing that with your fingers.

[1578] That's how you packed dip in junior high.

[1579] Really?

[1580] What do you mean?

[1581] Where does it go?

[1582] Well, you take the can, you put it between your fingers, and then you tap on the top of the can.

[1583] It drives all the dip into the corner of the can.

[1584] And then it's nice and dense when you put a pinch between your cheek and gum.

[1585] So you can do it without the can.

[1586] Like that, you practice.

[1587] It's what turds do like me. Like when I was young, that was a cool thing you could do.

[1588] Yeah, you're cool.

[1589] Jesus Christ.

[1590] All right, I love you.

[1591] I love you.

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