Extra: Mark Cuban Full Interview

[0] Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner.

[1] Before we get to this bonus episode, a quick offer.

[2] If you happen to be a member of 24 -hour fitness, the national gym chain, and you want to be part of a behavioral science experiment, go to 24 -go .com slash freak.

[3] That's 24 -go .com slash freak.

[4] You can enroll there in a program called Step Up, which was created by our friends at Behavior Change for Good.

[5] That's a group of scientists who are running big experiments to help people achieve better outcomes in health, education, and personal finance.

[6] You've heard about their work in a couple previous episodes.

[7] One was called How to Launch a Behavior Change Revolution.

[8] The other was, could solving this one problem solve all the others?

[9] The deadline for step up is January 31st, so hurry.

[10] Again, it's 24 -go .co slash freak.

[11] That's 24 -go .com.

[12] slash freak.

[13] Now, on with our show.

[14] This is a Freakonomics Radio Extra, our full interview with the entrepreneur and Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, who's been appearing in our Hidden Side of Sports Series.

[15] Cuban has owned the Mavs since 2000, and he's one of the investors regularly appearing on the reality TV show Shark Tank.

[16] He made his fortune in the late 1990s, selling the streaming service broadcast .com to Yahoo for $5 .7 billion.

[17] Our conversation took placed last summer before the current NBA season had begun.

[18] LeBron James was still a free agent at the time.

[19] The Mavs had already drafted the Slovenian teenager Luca Danchich, who's been having an excellent rookie season, even though the Mavs are doing poorly overall.

[20] The conversation covers a lot of ground, including Cubans' ambitions to own a baseball team and maybe, just maybe, his ambitions to run for president.

[21] You'll also hear a number of names that you may not be familiar with.

[22] Byron Whizzer White, for instance, was a great collegiate athlete who played three seasons in the NFL, twice leading the league in rushing, but then left for law school and, ultimately, a seat on the U .S. Supreme Court.

[23] The Rick that Cuban mentions is Dallas Mavericks coach Rick Carlyle.

[24] Tim Donaghy is a former NBA ref who pled guilty to betting on games he was involved in.

[25] If there's anything else you don't catch, well, that's what Google is for.

[26] Thanks for listening.

[27] My name is Mark Kubman, and you're listening to Free Economics Radio.

[28] Hey, this is Stephen Dubner.

[29] Hey, Mark Cuban.

[30] How's it going?

[31] Great, Stephen Dubner.

[32] How are you?

[33] Great.

[34] Nice to talk to you.

[35] Congrats on Luca.

[36] Do we say Donchick?

[37] How are we saying the last name?

[38] Donchich, yeah.

[39] Thanks.

[40] Congratulations.

[41] Yeah, he looks amazing.

[42] We hope he is.

[43] So let me ask you this.

[44] You're roughly 60 years old.

[45] You grew up in Pittsburgh, which is one of the best sports towns.

[46] I'm just curious, in a nutshell, how you think pro sports.

[47] has changed since you were a kid?

[48] Oh, my goodness.

[49] That's a big question.

[50] It depends on which sport.

[51] It depends on what city.

[52] Depends on whose perspective.

[53] You know, I think, you know, pros, you know, in a lot of ways it hasn't changed, but in a lot of ways, depending on what city you're in, your teams have come and gone are better or worse.

[54] And, you know, it just depends on perspective.

[55] Okay, let's pick a team.

[56] Let's pick the Steelers of your.

[57] childhood and my childhood, you know, guys like Rocky Blyer and Andy Russell, even Franco, well, maybe not quite Franco, but these guys would typically work an off -season job and they weren't making money to retire on.

[58] And now, obviously, the economics are a lot different, but the economics are a lot different on the business side as well.

[59] There's just been tremendous, tremendous, tremendous growth.

[60] And I guess I'm curious, as sport has become such a massive and global business, whether you think that's basically made the product, the games, better, worse, different, how so?

[61] I mean, I think it's made it better because it's, you know, it's an incentive for more people to become professional athletes, you know, for all the stories of athletes working in the summer, there's the whizzer whites of the world and other athletes who chose not to go into professional sports at all.

[62] And so now the money creates enough of incentive.

[63] But again, that's just part of the equation.

[64] there's other issues.

[65] There's, you know, CTE for hockey and football.

[66] There's, you know, soccer is much more, is a much bigger sport in the, in the U .S. than it used to be when I was growing up.

[67] It wasn't even a varsity sport when I was in high school.

[68] And so a lot of things have changed.

[69] You're best known probably for two things, Shark Tank and owning the Dallas Mavericks.

[70] Can you just give us a quick catalog of your other sports business interests?

[71] Oh, my goodness.

[72] You know, most Most of my other sports interests are driven through technology, whether it's Synergy Sports, which does cataloging and video of all things basketball, sports radar, which is an information service for sports.

[73] Unicorn, which is delivery for e -sports.

[74] It allows for tokenized betting for e -sports right now.

[75] Axon, which does neural development, so that that athletes can improve their neurological responses to stimuli and their physical responses as a result.

[76] Another company that uses virtual reality and like a weed -like technology to help kids and athletes and professionals improve their dribbling skills and other basketball skills.

[77] Now, I would say of everything that you just named there, if you were to rewind the tape to 40 years ago or 50 years ago and you were a kid, most of those would have been somewhere between unimaginable and, you know, not feasible.

[78] I mean, that's one direction in which sport has just blown up in terms of technology.

[79] Again, do you see the technology and we hear all the time about how the data revolution is changing the way the game is played?

[80] I'm curious whether it's really having as big an impact as we'd like to think or imagine.

[81] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[82] You know, analytics obviously has helped in terms of team strategy, but that's actually.

[83] become a relatively efficient market because all teams are involved and they're all hiring smart people to do mostly the same things.

[84] And then there's bioanalytics where we're becoming smarter about the body, nutrition, sleep, genetics.

[85] There's just so many, you know, elements involved with bioanalytics that it's a never -ending improvement cycle.

[86] So in terms of turnarounds, franchise turn rounds, your team, the Mavericks have been one of the most drastic.

[87] When you came in, the years, I guess the nine seasons before you arrived, the MAV's winning percentage was about 40%.

[88] Yeah, we were awful.

[89] And since you've been there, about 70%.

[90] So that's really remarkable.

[91] So we could either say, I mean, if we're going to try to draw a causal relationship, we could say either Mark Cuban is one of the best owners ever, or he was really lucky to intersect perfectly with Dirk Novitsky's career or, you know, five, ten other things.

[92] Can you just talk about what you did that you think worked and what are the the other factors that led to that success?

[93] Well, hopefully the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[94] I think sometimes when you're dealt a good hand, not screwing it up as a talent.

[95] But I think what I did was try to change a culture.

[96] Because like any work environment, you can have really, really talented people, but if they don't like coming to work where they don't like working together, then you're not going to get optimal results.

[97] And so what I came in, the previous owner, you know, nickel and dined everything, didn't recognize that the players were the key to the organization.

[98] You know, we did things like spend more money on computer repair and training than we did on medical issues and development for our players.

[99] And so I just changed that.

[100] I just flipped the script and said, look, my job is to provide the resources to put everybody in a position to succeed.

[101] And if I do that, good things will happen.

[102] And so, you know, we had Dirk, we had Steve Nash, we had Michael Finley.

[103] The same three guys were awful the year before I got there.

[104] The day I bought the team, our record was nine and twenty -two -year.

[105] and we finished out the season, I think 31 and 19 and won 50 games the next season.

[106] So, well, I certainly didn't hit any jumpers.

[107] I think, you know, I recognized that there was an opportunity to invest in some great players and make them better at what they do.

[108] What was the mental state of the organization in the building when you came in without losing record that year?

[109] Get me out of here.

[110] Everybody, it was a way station.

[111] If you couldn't get a job somewhere else, you came to the Mavericks.

[112] When players were traded here, they just couldn't wait to get it.

[113] get out.

[114] Your last couple seasons, though, have been fairly stinky, at least by Mav's standards, so much so that you got a high draft pick this year.

[115] So what happened?

[116] What happens is guys get older, you know, guys get injured.

[117] And so, you know, you play it out as long as you can as best you can.

[118] And we try to respond and rebuild as quickly as possible.

[119] And hopefully with this summer, you know, with our draft picks and anybody we signed in free agency, we'll be able to do that and start fighting our way back.

[120] You've been fined a few times by the NBA, most recent one was 600K for talking about that it was essentially in the best interest in the team to lose to get a higher draft pick.

[121] I'm just curious, you know, you're worth about $4 billion from what I've seen.

[122] Do you care much?

[123] I mean, is that strategic outspokenness?

[124] In that case, it wasn't.

[125] More often than not, it was.

[126] In that particular case, I was being interviewed by Julius Irving, and I just fan -boid and said the wrong thing.

[127] Seriously.

[128] Julius Irving was like my boyhood basketball hero.

[129] Really?

[130] I mean, yeah, he was the one guy I looked up to.

[131] And it was the first time I met him.

[132] And to give you an idea of, you know, how much of a fanboy I am of Julius Irving, when I was a kid, the fish that saved Pittsburgh, an old basketball movie was being filmed at the Civic Arena.

[133] And I took a bus down there just to see him, you know, just to be able to see Julius Irving, not playing basketball, just to see him.

[134] And then when I first bought the Mavs, I was at an NBA All -Star game, I think, was in Philly, and I took a picture with Dr. Jay.

[135] He didn't know he was in the picture.

[136] It was me having someone take a picture with him in it with me smiling.

[137] So, you know, and then when he asked me to do his podcast, it was just like, yeah.

[138] And so I was trying to be too cool and, you know, try to impress him.

[139] And when I started talking about being a player's owner, you know, he said he would have liked to have played for me as an owner.

[140] Then I had to show off.

[141] And that's when I said the wrong thing.

[142] What was it about Dr. Jay as a player that you love so much.

[143] Oh, just his athleticism, you know, his winning attitude, his uniqueness, you know, on the court and off.

[144] He had a certain style that, you know, he didn't take any prisoners and he was who he was without regrets.

[145] And I always admire those qualities.

[146] And this was also the ABA, which was the upstart league.

[147] I sense that you've kind of identified with upstarts throughout your life.

[148] Yeah, I would say underdogs more than upstarts.

[149] Maybe they're one in the same in a lot of instances.

[150] But it's not like I expected all this to happen.

[151] You know, and so, you know, every step of the way I would try to just keep on grinding and try to accomplish what I could accomplish and go from there.

[152] I am curious who your favorite Steelers were.

[153] Oh, Franco Harris, Mean Joe Green, Jack Lambert.

[154] Any dark horses?

[155] Any more obscure guys?

[156] Joe Gillum, you would know the first black quarterback.

[157] Yeah.

[158] Who else?

[159] Let me think.

[160] There's a guy named Tunch Ilkin that...

[161] Tunch Ilken, sure.

[162] He's still broadcast.

[163] for him.

[164] Oh, is you really?

[165] Yeah.

[166] And so Tunch came from Indiana State, and we had a mutual friend.

[167] And so when he came to the Steelers, I would go hang out with him and some of the Steelers him to tell you a quick story.

[168] One time we went out with Jack Lambert, Steve Corson, Tunchy Oaken, Lynn Swan to a place in Green Tree, Pennsylvania.

[169] Horrible snowy day.

[170] I had a nasty old 1977 Fiat X -19, which is a, you know, tiny car.

[171] And, you know, they got out left earlier before I did.

[172] I go out to find my car in the snow, and they literally had picked it up between them and carried it up and put it on a hill so that I had to go and figure out how to get it through the snow down a hill back into the street.

[173] All right.

[174] So you did not become a professional athlete yourself, but you went one better and became a billionaire.

[175] And the story for people who don't know it, it reads like fiction.

[176] So can you just briefly tell us that story?

[177] I would tell you, we started the streaming industry.

[178] You know, there was a point in time in the early 90s where the internet was becoming functional and, you know, one of my buddies from college was like, we've got to be able to use all this new internet stuff to be able to listen to Indiana basketball.

[179] And so I was like, okay, I'm a tech guy.

[180] Let me see if I can figure it out.

[181] And I had just sold a few years earlier, my first company, which was a networking company.

[182] So I was familiar with the technology and had a little bit of money.

[183] And so I went to work, bought a, you know, PC, a 90 megahertz Packard Bell and ISDN line and just started figuring out.

[184] And we created a website called AudioNet.

[185] Fast forward a few years, we go public.

[186] It's the biggest IPO in the history of the stock market.

[187] And what you probably don't realize is we dominated all things audio and video on the internet.

[188] There was nobody close.

[189] As dominant as YouTube is today, we were that dominant then.

[190] We had a unique opportunity that when we sold to Yahoo, if they would have kept on doing what we were doing, even after the stock market bubble had burst, there would be no YouTube.

[191] There might not even be a Google.

[192] I mean, you know, they chose the direction and they chose to de -invest when, you know, Google chose the opposite to invest, and that changed the course of history for streaming.

[193] So that was nearly 20 years ago.

[194] That was 99 that you sold broadcast .com to Yahoo. Right.

[195] Can I ask you to speculate a little bit, maybe not looking 20 years forward, but maybe five or 10, big live sport events are in some ways keeping the legacy broadcast networks alive.

[196] They are one of the few destination points for watching TV these days.

[197] I'm really curious, you know, the streaming companies and companies like Amazon that have streaming as well, they have so much money now that I'm guessing, I mean, they could buy the leagues if they wanted to.

[198] So I'm really curious to know what you see the future of watching sports looks like.

[199] And will it be kind of gradually changed so that we won't even notice so much?

[200] Or do you think it'll be radically different than now?

[201] I think it'll be gradual, but it'll be different for a couple of different reasons.

[202] One, one of the reasons sports are still so prevalent on traditional television is it's a destination.

[203] If you want to watch the Mavericks, if you don't watch the pirates, if you don't watch the penguins, the Dallas Stars, whatever, you have to go to traditional TV.

[204] and that's one of the keys to retaining the customers, the subscribers that they have, particularly for older viewers, which leads to a big question that will drive some of this at some level.

[205] You know, when people turn 40, 50, 60, do they start consuming more television or will, you know, millennials as they age, stick to traditional digital over the top?

[206] That's the unknown question because you still, for over the top, you still have to do work.

[207] You still have, you know, you still have to choose from 20 apps, 30 apps, which, you know, is more annoying than going through a direct TV programming guide.

[208] And so, you know, those things have to improve dramatically, I think, before older consumers switch from traditional television.

[209] All that said, one of the challenges for over the top is that there's an unlimited number of choices.

[210] When you go on Charter, Comcast, DirecTV, AT &T, whatever, you've got 250, 300 choices maybe.

[211] And that might be daunting, but it's still somewhat manageable.

[212] When you go online, you're, you know, there's a zillion choices.

[213] There's no limit to the number of choices.

[214] You know, you can spend a day in YouTube, so destination content is much rare.

[215] There aren't a lot of hits online.

[216] And, you know, even when you see YouTube stars or Instagram stars, they, have to create content every single day.

[217] And the same applies to Twitch.

[218] You know, Ninja has got to be playing.

[219] There's a thing from Ninja, the guy who's the Fortnite superstar, that when he didn't broadcast one day, he lost 40 ,000 subscribers.

[220] So it's a whole different beast.

[221] And so over the top, you know, when it comes to sports, I think the license value of the NBA, college sports, etc. is going to escalate significantly because it's harder to draw an audience over the top and for the reason you mentioned right now the market caps are bigger than you know the fangs the top five or six different online media companies just dwarfs traditional media so I think a lot's going to change then you add the impact of 5g and so 5g is smaller cells but much higher bandwidth which means you can broadcast different types of things that higher bit rates, and it also may lead to people cutting the broadband cord.

[222] So all that money you paid for your internet subscription, you may be paying 50 bucks, 75, 100 bucks a month for broadband.

[223] That might go away.

[224] And the same subscription you use for your phone, you might use for your broadband as well, which can in turn change how we consume content as well.

[225] Right.

[226] Let me ask you this.

[227] Let's look at individual sports or leagues, especially with the future of the way the materials distributed and the future of those games or leagues themselves.

[228] So let's pretend that you have the choice of three stocks to buy.

[229] And I'm going to make you buy one, sell one, and hold one.

[230] And the three are going to be NFL, UFC, and we'll say a basket of e -sports leagues or games, Overwatch.

[231] I take esports.

[232] Yeah.

[233] If it's against those three, I take, I buy e -sports, sell NFL.

[234] Right.

[235] Okay.

[236] Okay.

[237] And hold UFC for now.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Okay.

[240] So let's get into both of those a little bit.

[241] First of all, why sell NFL?

[242] I just think CTE creates a problem.

[243] So participation has been dropping the last few years and will continue to drop more.

[244] And, you know, I have an eight -year -old son.

[245] There's no way I'd let him play tackle football.

[246] My brother lets my nephew play high school football, but he's not that good.

[247] So it's not like he's got a future in football.

[248] Right.

[249] What about the political stuff that's happening?

[250] Mostly the anthem protests, do you think that's legitimately hurting football or is that more of a side show?

[251] No, that's short term.

[252] Yeah, that's short term.

[253] Okay, so you think CTE is the biggest barrier that?

[254] Yeah, because a parent, if you don't want your son playing, and your daughter, I guess, I don't want to be gender specific, but if you don't want your child playing contact football, then, you know, you diminish the viewing in the house.

[255] It's like, I don't want my son to get excited about watching football.

[256] And reality, you know, it's crazy because, you know, hey, let's watch a Cowboys game.

[257] Let's watch a Steeler game.

[258] When I was growing up, it was a certainty.

[259] That's what you did.

[260] Now, you know, he'd much rather play Fortnite or, you know, do other things than watch football.

[261] So how do we explain, though, the success of UFC, especially given the concern over the NFL and the decline of boxing?

[262] I mean, boxing used to be the biggest sport in America, and it went, you know, it was hurt for a lot of different reasons, obviously.

[263] But what do you think UFC the league has done or the sport has done that the NFL maybe isn't doing as well?

[264] I think it's just different because it's individuals and individuals can make their own choices.

[265] You don't need a lot of participants.

[266] In any given UFC fight, there's 10 matches, 20 guys.

[267] And so you don't need the number of participants that you do, obviously, you know, for football where there's 53 guys on a team and, you know, 32 teams and then college football, high school football, etc. Right.

[268] Okay, and you're buying esports.

[269] So say why, and especially explain to people who can't get their mind around it at all.

[270] What is the appeal of watching?

[271] I mean, you know, especially Dallas, where you are, has become really, it seems like a hotbed.

[272] Yeah.

[273] I mean, there's arenas, stadiums being built and so on.

[274] So why do 20, 50 ,000 people want to go to a stadium to watch other people play video games?

[275] Because once you understand the game, it's like, once you play, you understand the nuances of the game.

[276] game and it's aspirational and educational.

[277] And so, you know, if you like to play League of Legends, it's hard.

[278] But one of the ways to get better League of Legends is to watch other people play and to learn the nuances and to learn the strategies, particularly given that they change the rules every 90 or 120 days.

[279] And so because of that, the e -sports teams have got to practice hours and hours and hours a day.

[280] So it takes a real skill.

[281] It's a real sport.

[282] And if you like it, you know, watching it is entertaining, educational, aspirational.

[283] And you also have to realize that anybody in front of a PS2, Xbox, PC, you know, watching these kids that play in their mind, you know, just like maybe we would watch sports growing up, it's like, hey, if they can do it, I can do it.

[284] And so that's the aspirational part of it as well.

[285] There's no physical hurdles.

[286] You can be four foot one or seven foot one.

[287] And if you've got the hand -eye coordination and the brain processing speed and, you know, anything's possible, you could do it too.

[288] One of the investments you mentioned, Unicorn, is a company that facilitates betting on e -sports.

[289] Can you just tell us a little bit about how that will work and whether gambling on e -sports is maybe a little bit more susceptible to match fixing than other sports or not necessarily?

[290] Yeah, I don't first let me start there.

[291] I don't think it's more susceptible at all because it's much more difficult.

[292] well, you know, most esports are multi -dimensional chess where there's so many pieces involved that it'd be nearly impossible.

[293] There's just, you know, there's what, two billion different chess moves and there's probably, you know, exponentially more in League of Legends.

[294] And, you know, and why unicorn?

[295] Just because.

[296] Yeah, and how does it work?

[297] I mean, what kind of access will we have to what kind of bets?

[298] Well, you realize gambling is legal in 118 countries.

[299] And so right now, for e -sports in those countries, you can just go bet on who wins and different prop bets, just like you could any other sports.

[300] Let me ask you about American Pro Sports League.

[301] So you're an NBA owner.

[302] I don't know too much about how, quote, the league works.

[303] I know a little bit more about the NFL, but in the NFL, the owners are essentially the league.

[304] Sure.

[305] Is it much different in the NBA, or is it pretty similar setup?

[306] No, not really.

[307] Okay.

[308] No, not really.

[309] Yeah, not really at all.

[310] I think the biggest difference between the NFL and the NBA is the emphasis put on talent.

[311] In the NFL, they sell the NFL.

[312] In the NBA, we sell the talent, the players.

[313] We promote the players and they promote themselves because it's mutually beneficial.

[314] I think, you know, with the exception to just a few stars, this is just my opinion, the NFL appears to use their players, look at their players as being more fungible.

[315] You know, there's 53 of them.

[316] you're going to rotate X number through every year.

[317] And, you know, honestly, if, you know, the entire Steelers team was in a mall or the entire Dallas Cowboys team was in a mall, maybe two or three of the players would get recognized.

[318] And so it's a different world.

[319] Yeah, now that's partly because they're helmeted, yeah, but it's more than that, right?

[320] Yeah, it's not just because they're helmeted.

[321] Okay, so given that the leagues operate, you know, there's obviously a lot of differences, roster size, a number of games, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[322] But let's assume that for the sake of argument that all four major sports leagues in America are pretty similar in that they have, you know, it's a membership.

[323] And once you're in, you're in.

[324] And it's pretty hard to lose money as a professional sports team because of the way revenues are divided.

[325] No, that's not true at all.

[326] No, that is not true at all.

[327] Oh, hell no. Give me an example.

[328] Oh, I can't throw out names, but yeah.

[329] Well, how many NBA teams in a given year are going to lose money?

[330] More than you think.

[331] Really?

[332] Yeah.

[333] So even with the revenue sharing, with all the broadcasts and other monies distributed evenly, and with a salary cap that guarantees that you don't have to overspend a certain amount, you're saying that how do you lose money?

[334] Is it by...

[335] Not everybody has enough, right?

[336] Lacking gate revenue?

[337] Yeah, lacking revenue, period.

[338] Yeah, yeah.

[339] Just like any business.

[340] Right.

[341] But what's the major variable?

[342] Is it gate revenue or is it broadcast revenue?

[343] Gate, broadcast, players, all the obvious things.

[344] Right.

[345] Okay.

[346] Okay.

[347] So that said, leagues in major American pro sports are more protected than, let's say, you know, European soccer, right?

[348] Where?

[349] Right, because there's no relegation.

[350] Exactly.

[351] Do you think, and it's always funny because our capitalism is more cutthroat than theirs.

[352] They're a little bit more socialist, but we have the slightly more socialist setup.

[353] Right.

[354] Do you think there, which do you prefer, I guess I'd like to know?

[355] Well, it depends where you are, right?

[356] If you already have a significant brand like Real Madrid.

[357] You know, you, because you can spend more money than everybody else.

[358] And they've put some limits on how much money teams can lose and how much debt they can have and that's impacted things.

[359] But if, you know, if you're on the bottom and you can buy a team inexpensively and you think you've got a secret formula that can get you into the Premier League, et cetera, then you wish, you know, that's the position you want to be.

[360] And if you're on the top and there's nothing that's going to impact your revenues and your global brand and you, you know, generate licensing and other incomes globally, you want to be at the top.

[361] You know, the MBA, we're a global brand, but the Dallas Mavericks get one -thirtieth of anything sold, whether it's in China or Germany or San Francisco.

[362] You know, we don't, we don't control the generation of revenues for ourselves, except in our local markets.

[363] In what league in U .S. sports do you think players, the athletes, have the most leverage and the least leverage?

[364] I'd say the NBA and the NFL.

[365] And NBA is most and NFL is least?

[366] Without question.

[367] And does that have to do with roster size primarily or is it go beyond that?

[368] Rastor size, injury, contact, sports, you know, the number of college football teams providing talent.

[369] The fact that they go four years so you get to see most of them go four years.

[370] year, so it's easier to evaluate talent.

[371] Right.

[372] Speaking of college football, what's your overall view of the NCAA?

[373] I think it's worthless.

[374] Yeah.

[375] Obviously, there's a lot of incentive to keep it as it is.

[376] A lot of people are benefiting, although you could easily argue that the one set of people who should be benefiting, the people who are actually providing the physical labor are not benefiting very much.

[377] If you could blow it up entirely, what would you do?

[378] Would you have football attached to college at all?

[379] Would you make it some sort of a D -League instead?

[380] Yeah, I don't mind having to attach to college, but I would make it an independent entity.

[381] So it would operate independently.

[382] You know, look, if I wanted to create a League of Legends team, it's not NCAA bound so, you know, I can pay players if I choose or, you know, incent them.

[383] I can, you know, let them have a job, right?

[384] Let them go get a job.

[385] Let them practice as much as they need to, much as I could if I wanted to create a band.

[386] I went to Indiana University, my alma mater, which has a great music school, and found the best musicians for the band I want to put together, I can pay them and they can stay in school.

[387] They can practice together as much as they want.

[388] That's the hypocrisy.

[389] If you want to be a professional athlete, you can't practice your craft as much as you would like.

[390] There's limits to coaching and playing with your teammates.

[391] There's limits on jobs you can take.

[392] there's so many different things that are bound in stone that it just doesn't make sense.

[393] And so there's reasons why they evolve to where they are, but it's time to take a whole different look.

[394] Yeah.

[395] Do you know Dominique Foxworth?

[396] He was the...

[397] No, I do not.

[398] He was the number two of the NBA Players Association for a while.

[399] He was the president of the NFL Players Association.

[400] He was a player.

[401] He was a cornerback played for, I guess, Denver, Atlanta, and then Baltimore.

[402] So he's an interesting guy, a career cut short by injury, but he cashed.

[403] out because he had insurance.

[404] And now he's kind of midlife, early 30s, and he's looking back and trying to figure out how to help the next generation of athlete do better.

[405] He told us that he thinks it would be in the best interest of players to dissolve the unions, the NFLPA, the NBA Players Association, because that would put the leagues in violation of labor laws, and it would give players the power to negotiate better deals and to make more money.

[406] They do that.

[407] Every time there's a lock.

[408] Look, I'm not a CBA expert, I can't get into details, but, you know, in the NFL, there's a long history of labor unrest, and the first thing they do is dissolve the union.

[409] Well, let's say that for a minute, you're not on the ownership side at all, and that you're either with the, let's say you run the biggest sports agency in the country or maybe, you know, are associated with players in some way.

[410] Let me slow you down right there, because if I do anything relative to the CBA, I'll get fined again.

[411] And when I like you, it's not strategic right now.

[412] Basically, you like me fine, but not as much as Dr. Jay is what you're saying.

[413] Exactly.

[414] I can accept that.

[415] Appreciate that.

[416] Coming up after the break, Mark Cuban is famous for yelling at NBA referees.

[417] We'll get to the roots of this habit.

[418] When I started doing my homework, you know, games weren't officiated the same in the first minute as they were in the last minute.

[419] And that just drove me nuts.

[420] And why was Cuban, according to Cuban, not allowed to buy a major league baseball team?

[421] because they knew I'd try to change things.

[422] I would teach all our guys to bat flip every time they hit a home run because you've got to just change things up.

[423] And if you haven't heard it yet, check out our entire Hidden Side of Sports series on any podcast app or on Freakonomics .com.

[424] We will be right back.

[425] Let's get back to the lightly edited full interview we did with Mark Cuban for our Hidden Side of Sports series.

[426] Cuban is, among many other things, the owner of the NBA's Dallas Macs.

[427] Let me ask you this big development from the Supreme Court not so long ago about sports gambling.

[428] I would assume that really changes the valuation of every professional or even semi -professional sports franchise.

[429] Without question.

[430] Can you talk about how that's going to affect you?

[431] Yeah, I think it'll lead to our franchise valuations doubly, literally, because there's a lot more reasons for people to pay attention, a lot more reasons for people to watch.

[432] and that's good for our bottom line.

[433] People attend more and watch more hours of NBA basketball, and same for all professional sports.

[434] All right, I got a quiz for you, or a riddle.

[435] I know you're very smart guy.

[436] I won't be surprised if you get this right.

[437] Homefield Advantage exists in every sport all over the world.

[438] What would you say is the primary driver of home field advantage?

[439] As according to academics who've studied this, let me say it.

[440] You know, my guess would, and it's not.

[441] home court, home ice advantage doesn't necessarily hold true.

[442] Like in hockey, it doesn't hold true.

[443] So I would tell you probably the energy.

[444] And so there's a couple things.

[445] One, you know, I know there's studies that say that the officials give benefit to home teams across all sports.

[446] You know, people try to argue that that's not the case.

[447] It is, whatever it is, it is.

[448] And then there's the energy of a crowd.

[449] I mean, crowds do make players play harder.

[450] And then, you know, I'd also say there's just.

[451] the comfort of playing in a place that you're used to shooting and playing and hitting in, fielding, and et cetera.

[452] So what the academics argue is that it's basically unconscious ref bias, that they're not rooting for the home team, obviously, but basically the crowd sentiment puts the refs unconsciously in that mode.

[453] I think Justin Wolfer's wrote that.

[454] Justin wrote about race, actually.

[455] You know, most of the studies about home field advantage come from soccer, where there are some nice little instrumental variables that you can use to determine.

[456] And plus, yeah, depending on the level of soccer, you know, where you're playing, yeah, there's concern for their lives.

[457] Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah.

[458] Yeah, like one of the best piece of evidence came from measuring soccer played in stadiums where there was a running track around the field.

[459] So the refs are literally, you know, 20 yards further from the crowd.

[460] And there, the home field advantage is much less so.

[461] But that said, you are probably most famous as an owner for, I don't know if you want to call it working the refs, but communicating with the refs.

[462] Yep.

[463] Just talk about that, how it evolved and how successful you think it is.

[464] It's funny.

[465] You know, everybody's wired differently.

[466] And when I play basketball, and by the way, I just got done playing basketball, and I've got a died – I just had a dyed Coke up against my Achilles because – so I've been a basketball junk in my entire life.

[467] Everybody's got something.

[468] And for whatever reason, when I got to the Mavs, I just looked at the officiating, and it just drove me nuts because – You know, my attitude has always been that the three officials in basketball, no matter what the level, have more impact than 80 % of the players on the court.

[469] And that's why it's always driven me crazy.

[470] And when I first got in and started doing my homework, you know, one of the things that was, you know, conventional wisdom is that games weren't officiated the same in the first minute as they were in the last minute.

[471] And that just drove me nuts.

[472] And as, you know, the more I got to know, the more I got to learn, then I started to understand, you know, how officials at all levels manage games and deal with certain issues.

[473] And it wasn't always about making the right call throughout the game.

[474] And so that's just ticked me off.

[475] And that just led to everything else.

[476] And so was it worth it?

[477] Yeah, I think it has been because I can tell you that things have changed dramatically.

[478] At various times, it changed dramatically for the better and various times personnel changed and it got worse.

[479] So, you know, we'll see what happens this season.

[480] Do you think that your input on that has changed the way NBA games are refereed now, at least more consistency?

[481] Without question.

[482] I don't know if there's more consistency, but yeah.

[483] What are the channels by which it's worked?

[484] Have there been actual committees where you sit down and say, listen, this is plainly going on and it's not right, not fair, not transparent?

[485] Well, no, no, it's not even like that.

[486] It's not like I come in and say, you know, this rep is biased or this guy's got a problem.

[487] a couple of times I've done that, but, you know, and it's been investigated and it's been fixed, and it's not like Tim Donahey, it's just little marginal things.

[488] But in any event, but what has changed, and the thing that I've always harped on the most is from all my experience in business, you know, you always want to get the best possible manager.

[489] And where I've seen a lot of companies make mistakes is they'll take their best salesperson and make them a sales manager.

[490] Well, just because you're a good salesperson doesn't make you a good sales manager.

[491] And so using that analogy, just because you were a good referee or just because you were a good in management somewhere in the NBA, doesn't mean you're the best person to be in charge of the officiating group.

[492] And that's been my biggest battle, that they promote people not because they were the best for the job, but because they were there.

[493] Or they promoted refs into positions of authority, not because they were great managers or not because they could get great results, but because they used to be good refs.

[494] and those guys wanted to keep on working.

[495] And so that's where I had the greatest amount of problem, and that's where I think I've had the greatest impact.

[496] Gotcha.

[497] There's another piece of research that argues that a lot of NBA coaches are bad strategically when it comes to sitting players in foul trouble.

[498] That if a player is good enough to sit because you're worried about losing them, then his value is actually greater by playing.

[499] I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that, and if you ever talk to your coaches about that?

[500] No, I agree.

[501] Look, you know, because going back to the refs, even the refs know how many files a guy has, and so they understand that, you know, if it's a toss -up call and it's a gray area call, they're probably not going to call it.

[502] And players are smart enough to adjust.

[503] Now, on the flip side, when you know a great player has three files in the first quarter, you're going to go at them and try to get that fourth foul because there is a point of diminishing returns.

[504] And so typically, if it's two files, I'm fine.

[505] If Rick keeps them in and Rick's gotten to that point.

[506] if it's, again, I'll qualify depending on the opponent, right?

[507] Because the value of that player is relative to the time, the score, and the opponent.

[508] And so if the numbers say keep them in, I'm fine with keeping them in.

[509] When are you finally going to buy a Major League Baseball team?

[510] Never.

[511] What happened?

[512] Never.

[513] Oh, well, two things happened.

[514] One, they didn't want me in.

[515] And two, I had, my kids got older and they're too much fun.

[516] You know, 162 games, my wife would divorce me. Uh -huh.

[517] Why didn't baseball want you in?

[518] Because they knew I'd try to change things.

[519] You know, I just did an interview with C .C. Sabathia, and he was like, well, what would you do differently?

[520] You know, one, I would teach all our guys to bat flip every time they hit a home run.

[521] Because you got to just change things up.

[522] These unwritten rules are ridiculous.

[523] And, you know, the fans pay the bills.

[524] You got to give them a reason to come.

[525] Two, I, you know, I'd push for the designated hitter in both leagues so that pitchers in between Indians could go right to the board.

[526] bullpen and warm up or do whatever they needed to.

[527] And that way, when you come back on the field, you don't, you know, you don't throw any warm -up pitches.

[528] You go right into pitching and there's no, you know, throwing the ball around the infield and the outfield.

[529] You just go right in.

[530] The brakes aren't the brakes and you go right up to bat and, you know, you reduce an hour off the game.

[531] It is pretty weird.

[532] It be like in the NBA, between every dead ball, there's like layup practice again.

[533] Yeah, exactly.

[534] You get to get shots up and everything to get your rhythm, you know.

[535] And so there's so many ways you can speed up the game, and I would have been pushing for him and talking about them, and they don't want to see that.

[536] Yeah.

[537] What would you say have been your most significant changes to the way basketball has played since you've owned the team?

[538] Oh, little things.

[539] Things like the Clear Path Rule, I changed it because I showed them the math was wrong, that it used to be one shot in the ball.

[540] I changed it to two shots in the ball, you know, different replay things.

[541] Now, with the latest collective bargaining agreement, there's a thing called the cap room exception.

[542] So when a team used to be when a team had cap room, you just had your cap room.

[543] Now there's a $4 .4 million exception that I pushed to get through in our collective bargaining agreement in 2011.

[544] And so that's been a big change.

[545] And I'm sure there's other things.

[546] That's just what comes to the top of my head.

[547] The effect of that exception is what then?

[548] So if the Mavericks have $25 million in cap room this year, and we use that cap room to sign three players and fully use it, we still have one exception where we can sign one or more players for up to $4 .4 million.

[549] I see.

[550] And the logic was you want to incent teams to have cap room and to try to improve their teams.

[551] And one way to improve the incentive was to create this cap room exception.

[552] Right.

[553] All right.

[554] Last question.

[555] Where is the Bron going?

[556] I don't know, and I can't comment on other teams' players.

[557] Dallas is not a team I've heard mentioned at all.

[558] Should they be?

[559] Who knows?

[560] Who knows?

[561] Like I said, I'm not ready to get fined again.

[562] Basically, I'm no Dr. Jay.

[563] I've learned my lesson.

[564] I stand down, but...

[565] I would never say that.

[566] That said, I very much enjoyed it, and I really appreciate your time, and I wish you the best of luck this season.

[567] Appreciate that.

[568] Hey, you're going to run for some office at some point?

[569] Yeah, I'm going to run to the bathroom right now, so I don't know.

[570] We'll see what happens in the midterms.

[571] Uh -huh.

[572] But would you enjoy, do you think the presidency?

[573] Would that be a job that, I mean, just in the abstract, is it a job that you think?

[574] Could I do the job?

[575] Yeah.

[576] Would I enjoy it?

[577] That's hard to say.

[578] The challenge isn't, you know, could I, you know, doing the job, it's the process to get there.

[579] You know, the definition of poor parenting is having kids 8, 11, and 14 and running.

[580] for the presidency.

[581] Yeah, but just think how cute they'd be on the posters.

[582] I mean, that's a real...

[583] I mean, if you want to just talk pure strategic exploitation of your family.

[584] No, I'm not a pimp.

[585] You know, when it comes to my kids, no. It'd be the exact opposite.

[586] All right.

[587] Well, whatever you do, I wish you continued huge success, and I thank you very much for the time.

[588] Appreciate it.

[589] All right, Mark, be well.

[590] Thanks, I enjoy the interview.

[591] Thank you.

[592] Thanks to Mark Cuban for this conversation.

[593] You can hear him and many others in our hidden side of sports series.

[594] Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dovner Productions.

[595] This series was produced by Anders Kelto and Derek John, with help from Alvin Melleth and Harry Huggins.

[596] Our staff also includes Alison Craiglo, Greg Rippin, and Zach Lipinski.

[597] We had helped this week from Matt Straup.

[598] The music you hear throughout our episodes was composed by Luis Gera.

[599] Our show can also be heard on NPR stations across the country.

[600] Thanks for listening.

[601] Stitcher.