291 - Welcome to the Comfort Zone

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] And welcome, my favorite murder.

[3] That's Georgia Heartstar.

[4] Thank you.

[5] That's Karen Kilgara.

[6] Thank you.

[7] We're back.

[8] There we are.

[9] We're back.

[10] Guys, we have listeners who are so kind.

[11] They sent us the kindest welcome back.

[12] Heartfelt.

[13] Yes.

[14] What it meant to them that we were actually recording together again.

[15] It was really lovely.

[16] It was really like, it felt like this like reunion, this like lovely reunion.

[17] Yeah.

[18] Yeah.

[19] That's so exciting.

[20] I missed it so much.

[21] I know.

[22] I had such a good time last week.

[23] So I did too.

[24] I mean, I feel like with everyone, we have all been operating in the weirdest world and we adjusted to it.

[25] So like, I didn't even think when we first made that plan, I think you're the one that was like, hey, we should record together.

[26] And it was like, oh, are we allowed to?

[27] Like I was, I didn't even think to do it.

[28] No, we've just been like, it's been a. slog that we've gotten so used to that we stopped realizing it was still a slog.

[29] Yes.

[30] And it's still like mentally fucking taxing to live in this crazy new world.

[31] So taxing.

[32] Let's find a little bit of happiness and brightness where we can.

[33] Because we've all forgotten where we can get it.

[34] Yes.

[35] Well, right, because unless it's like sitting in front of your television trying to discover some new Norwegian police procedural personal example.

[36] I was like, who does that?

[37] I don't know.

[38] Some weird girl, a woman.

[39] Yeah, it's just the difference.

[40] It's almost like these real actual, a real example of like normal life came back in the middle of the weird life.

[41] And I was like, oh yeah, that was, this is the way we used to do it.

[42] Yeah.

[43] Like, I never used to wear athletic slides.

[44] Maybe I can stop doing that now.

[45] I just took them off and realized, like, that's my new normal.

[46] Those are a gorgeous shower shoe that you're wearing and also represent your favorite athletic mega company.

[47] Oh, the one that sponsors me and my athleticism?

[48] Oh, so do you athlete around your neighborhood and get sponsored by what looks like a company called Niquet?

[49] NK.

[50] And their logo is swoopy.

[51] Their logo is check.

[52] Check mark.

[53] I worked out.

[54] You did it.

[55] Now I'm in the shower, but I'm not going to get a fungus on my feet.

[56] That's right.

[57] No, no. Before this, I would not have been caught dead wearing athletic slides outside the house.

[58] Even inside the house, I've never owned a pair of athletic slides until Vince was like what's the snobbery about athletic slides there's some snobbery like leftover fashion you know victim snobbery going on not anymore yeah welcome to the comfort zone thank you vintage Georgia doesn't exist anymore and I don't know if she's going to find her way back after this what about because you know I've always been very interested in fashion design I'm sorry I'm so hard I was like do I miss you're just like um uh uh no I feel like I'm I've spent a lot of time with you, and I've never, you know, you like fashion, though.

[59] Here's, don't worry about it.

[60] Here's my suggestion.

[61] I think we can have all the things, because when I used to wear vintage dresses in the early 90s on drugs.

[62] Very important part of.

[63] I never wore a vintage shoe because I have wide, I have large wide feet.

[64] No, vintage shoes were made to oppress women.

[65] Yes.

[66] Purely.

[67] And many current shoes as well.

[68] True.

[69] So the whole thing of like a grandma dress with combat boots, I was like, this is made for me in every way.

[70] Or like high top converse.

[71] Sure.

[72] Love it.

[73] Or a Nakey shower shoe.

[74] Bring it around.

[75] Let the world know what happened to you.

[76] Listen, it's not ever happening again.

[77] The only time I'm ever wearing fucking heels is for like a parade.

[78] I don't know.

[79] the one time you don't want to be in the you know how all those parades I like to accompany myself So you have to park in the parking structure and then walk in your luboutons down the street You know what I did just think of recently that I got so overly excited about is that this is going to be the first Halloween that I have a dog which you know means costume parade Yeah I know Does that bother you?

[80] I don't think you'd ever be a person Who dresses your dog You know my stance That I feel it degrades the dog.

[81] But what about Cookie?

[82] Like think of, like, your dogs are like fucking stoic and like larger and like have, you know, a presence where Cook is just this like, she's basically an exclamation mark.

[83] True.

[84] In a fucking puppy form.

[85] Well, then, then since I know I can't do anything about it, can I make some suggestions.

[86] You know I've always been interested in animal costume design.

[87] You know this.

[88] So it seems to me. It's my favorite thing about you.

[89] Right?

[90] Yeah.

[91] It seems to me that cookie, because she's black and white, you could stick petals around the outside of her head and whatever flower has like black and white, you know, stamen, all those on the inside.

[92] I don't think that exists.

[93] No?

[94] I don't know.

[95] What about if you pulled open a tulip?

[96] What's in there?

[97] Horticulturists right now are screaming at the microphone.

[98] There's got to be some kind of a black, like, because the first thing I thought it was like a sunflower and how cute that would be.

[99] That would be adorable.

[100] Do you know what?

[101] Okay, like a couple years ago, and I don't remember her name, so I have to find it.

[102] A girl in a meet and greet after a live show gave me a knitted hat for Elvis, and guess what it was?

[103] Well, wasn't I there?

[104] Yeah, but you don't remember.

[105] Wait, oh, then now I will guess what it was.

[106] If you remember this, I'm going to be in awe of your memory.

[107] The devil?

[108] Is that what you really think of Elvis?

[109] Yes, now that he's dead, I can finally say it.

[110] Georgia.

[111] It's Cookie Monster.

[112] No, I don't remember that.

[113] Oh, that's right.

[114] And now I have a dog named cookie so I can put the little knitted cookie monster cap on her.

[115] You're all set.

[116] Oh, my God.

[117] Like life is.

[118] So please mess it.

[119] Please comment in fucking Instagram or whatever on this episode.

[120] Post, Jesus, words.

[121] Who you are that you made that because I need to tag him.

[122] Oh, the actual inventor.

[123] Yes.

[124] The knitter.

[125] The author of that costume.

[126] Speaking of authors.

[127] That was great.

[128] Segway.

[129] Depends on where you're going.

[130] I read a book.

[131] I read a book.

[132] Oh, okay.

[133] Perfect, right?

[134] I mean, we don't have to talk about that now.

[135] We can talk about Game of Thrones instead.

[136] Speaking of sitting on your couch watching a Norwegian, whatever the fuck, I watch Game of Thrones.

[137] You can't relate all of it to anything.

[138] I really, truly can't.

[139] Okay, let's...

[140] What do you want it to do first?

[141] First, I'm going to do the Georgia's Game of Thrones segment theme song.

[142] Do, do do do do...

[143] Blu -do do...

[144] Skip.

[145] Skip, skip intro.

[146] First of all, Skip intro.

[147] There are people, there are hardcore people that get mad when you skip the intro because they're different.

[148] Oh, they are?

[149] Yes, apparently.

[150] This is what someone told me. I've watched it over and over, and I'm like, but they, there are those who say, and again, we're going to hear from the Thrones arena.

[151] Professors, the game of throne professors.

[152] The professors out there.

[153] But I heard, and I've never witnessed it with my own eyes, that there are different introductions.

[154] Like spoilers?

[155] Like different title, sequences based on what's happening in the episode where it's like King's Landings first this time.

[156] Remember this?

[157] Remember that?

[158] Remember this?

[159] It focuses in on, but to me when I, and I swear I've tried to look for it, it seems like the most expensive title sequence I've ever seen.

[160] So the fact that there's like an early 2000s video game opening.

[161] Am I going to get murdered for saying that?

[162] Probably for lots of things in this area because these are passionate people.

[163] But I have almost nothing bad to say about it.

[164] Really?

[165] You won't believe this.

[166] But do or don't like the opening title sequence.

[167] Don't know because I skip it every time because that's what I do.

[168] Who watches opening title sequences when they have the option to skip?

[169] And when they don't have the option to skip, do I get angry?

[170] Yes, I do.

[171] True.

[172] I agree with you on all that.

[173] But artistically, because you know I've always.

[174] No fucking say.

[175] No, go ahead.

[176] Been interested in opening title designs.

[177] That's right.

[178] Always.

[179] Just look at how.

[180] And look at it and go, how it.

[181] I do that if I just start tomorrow?

[182] I wouldn't.

[183] I quit.

[184] Impossible.

[185] I first of all want that job.

[186] So I quit.

[187] I just realized that's how I watch all TV.

[188] Okay.

[189] Go ahead.

[190] Well, that's because you're actually working TV.

[191] I know.

[192] It all feels like a job I was supposed to get done two weeks ago.

[193] And so like I watched that opening title sequence.

[194] I'm like, I can't do it.

[195] I don't know how to, I'm not a woodworker.

[196] I don't know how to do this.

[197] Let it go.

[198] Listen, I know you don't want to accept that you are a career podcaster.

[199] And the relief I feel, because I've always loved podcasts.

[200] Big fan.

[201] Stab you with this big pen.

[202] Okay, now let's walk us through when you first turned on that episode one, what were you expecting and what did you see?

[203] Well, let me tell you, can we go pre that?

[204] This is an important part of it.

[205] And I would love to thank everyone on Twitter because I, okay, Vince was out of town.

[206] this past weekend doing fucking wrestling podcasty things.

[207] Sure.

[208] We watch wrestling.

[209] Please watch it.

[210] Take a listen.

[211] Please listen to it.

[212] So I was like, this will be great.

[213] He's seen it before.

[214] He's not interested, whatever, whatever.

[215] So then my dad was like, oh, do you need me to spend the night?

[216] I know you get scared alone.

[217] And I was like, I wasn't scared.

[218] I was like, sure, dad.

[219] Like I wanted him to feel useful or whatever.

[220] You know what I mean.

[221] Marty.

[222] So I was like, yeah, yeah, spend the night.

[223] So then I go on Twitter.

[224] And I was like, hey, everyone is episode one of Game of Thrones in OK.

[225] show to watch with my dad.

[226] Because I remember some words of, like, there's some sex stuff in it.

[227] And I just got 400 comments of people saying, God, no, please don't watch it with Marty.

[228] Do not do it.

[229] I still can't look at my father -in -law on the eye because we watched it together.

[230] Just don't do it.

[231] Incess.

[232] Everyone was like, just don't fucking do it.

[233] So we watched Only Murders in the building instead.

[234] Oh, great.

[235] A great father -daughter show.

[236] So finally, Saturday, fucking no plans.

[237] get on the fucking lazy boy.

[238] Yep.

[239] Three episodes.

[240] All in one?

[241] You said I can watch one, but I should try three.

[242] I did four.

[243] Yes.

[244] Because guess what?

[245] Don't fucking hate it.

[246] I can't believe this.

[247] I'll try it.

[248] I'll go some more.

[249] I'll try.

[250] I want to know what happens.

[251] I like Calisi.

[252] Don't love the storyline of Calisi and fucking MoMA.

[253] And all you got to do is hop on that dick and write it right and he'll be nice to you.

[254] Right?

[255] Right.

[256] You just got to face them.

[257] Don't have to face them.

[258] You just get that dick.

[259] And suddenly this.

[260] fucking dude who's horrible will be nice to you and you'll fall in love.

[261] Don't love that.

[262] Yeah.

[263] Although, you know.

[264] I'm sure it's been.

[265] It's, I, I, who knows if it has, but the, the feminist politics of Game of Thrones.

[266] But it is like, you know, they're this clan of like warlord horse worshippers.

[267] Yeah.

[268] So you're, I think it's just being set up that they're like, they're a little more maybe behind the times and tribal than say, you can tame that with that pussy.

[269] Right?

[270] With like make I'm turning around and look at you.

[271] Yeah, if you got that good push, you can fucking.

[272] Um, the other thing I, oh, I text you.

[273] First of all, you text me. Hey, I sent you basically all the research that's been ever done about Game of Thrones for me to follow along, which I really appreciated.

[274] And I was like, oh shit, Karen's really invested in this.

[275] I have to do this.

[276] Well, I'm indefinitely invested.

[277] And that visual chart, yeah.

[278] Like, it was, there's Pinterest visual charts of the different houses.

[279] Wow.

[280] Because when you don't actually have any reference, Yeah.

[281] It's baffling.

[282] It's like watching, you know, days of our lives starting now.

[283] That's right.

[284] That's the other thing about it is you telling me last week that it's like a soap opera made me not take it as seriously.

[285] So I liked it better.

[286] Otherwise, it'd be like, that's not how things like that happen.

[287] And that's so stupid and there's overacting.

[288] Blah, blah, blah.

[289] I was like, this is a fucking soap opera.

[290] Yes.

[291] Loved it.

[292] Sent you a text of this bitch of a photo of a gif of what's his name.

[293] Joffrey.

[294] That's right.

[295] This bitch.

[296] And I wrote him.

[297] Not you because it sounded like.

[298] And then, yeah, I liked it.

[299] I'll keep watching.

[300] I can't believe it.

[301] I'm so glad.

[302] I can't believe it either.

[303] Can we talk for one moment about what a star turn this role is for Peter Dinklage?

[304] He is my favorite.

[305] Yeah.

[306] Love him.

[307] Like, he's like nice to hot John Snow, but he's like cruel to everyone else.

[308] Like, which one do you believe about him?

[309] Love John Snow, by the life.

[310] Holy fucking shit.

[311] When he said, he has these lines when he says things.

[312] Like, I'm a, I have a soft spot for broken and discarded things.

[313] Yeah.

[314] It's just a beautiful, there's some beautiful storytelling and characters.

[315] He's such a little cut, too.

[316] I love it.

[317] Yes.

[318] I'm obsessed.

[319] It's palace intrigue.

[320] I mean, like, the most fun, it's, it's like, you can learn about how to deal with high school by watching Game of Thrones.

[321] Okay.

[322] I could have used that.

[323] Could I use it?

[324] Because it's like, we all want to take big swings outward.

[325] I needed it so bad.

[326] And instead, it's like, have.

[327] some dinklage, like, self -respect and then, like, turn the power in.

[328] Don't give him so much.

[329] However, I wonder if it was his creative input that the first, within the first few lines of him in that show, we acknowledge that he's got a big dick.

[330] Do you remember that?

[331] Do you think that he was like, hey, direct the writers?

[332] Can I get it?

[333] Can I get your ear?

[334] Well, I mean, let's talk about where power comes from.

[335] What?

[336] Yeah, anyways, I'm going to keep watching it.

[337] Love it, love it, love it.

[338] so glad.

[339] Now, did any of those charts help the visual charts?

[340] Actually, I didn't look at them.

[341] I kind of wish I could lie to you.

[342] But thank you.

[343] I feel like when I need them, I'll know.

[344] Like, so far I'm following everyone.

[345] Like, I think I get this person and that person.

[346] Like, I think I get it.

[347] They start, like, with the three basic houses.

[348] But then when they start adding is when I started getting panicky.

[349] And I swear to God, every time they fucking talk about Stanis Barathie and I'm like, I don't know who that is.

[350] Oh, I don't know anyone's name.

[351] Yeah.

[352] Which one's that person?

[353] he's the guy that eventually he i don't know if you've gotten to him any episodes with him yet because he comes in a tiny bit later but he's that he's the head of the house of barathean that is with the red witch that woman with the really cool hair who's uh the night is dark and full of terrors she keeps saying that i don't know what you're talking about yeah we're but i'm only um a couple like so you're the beginning of season one i just started season three oh so i can catch up with you i will slow it down for you okay and we can like get on we could just start potting you um You know when I used to steal from I survived?

[354] Well, now we'll just do it with Game of Thrones.

[355] Okay, so this week this story is about a horse warrior.

[356] I don't know what's a dragon slayer.

[357] Yeah, really.

[358] It's all one of the most embarrassing conversations that I ever had was when I tried to ask a smart friend of mine in private was Game of Thrones based on historical facts.

[359] No. Where I was like, is any of this stuff I should have known from like the history of Great Britain or something?

[360] And they were just like.

[361] Carin.

[362] And knights and fucking castles and how stark.

[363] That can't be that far from like.

[364] It is.

[365] It's totally based on like the human reference point.

[366] So that we're not just like weirdly and some.

[367] And look, we don't have fucking dragons.

[368] It didn't exist.

[369] They came from the moon according to the police.

[370] Dragons are just new dinosaurs.

[371] They were in a deep cave.

[372] It's like a unicorn.

[373] They existed.

[374] We just haven't found proof yet.

[375] But I'm so happy that you like it.

[376] Yeah, I am too.

[377] And I appreciate you helping me like broaden my horizons and I get out of my head of like my prejudices.

[378] Sure.

[379] You know?

[380] Well, because at this point in quarantine, let's just admit we're kind of still in it in many ways.

[381] Yeah.

[382] We can't, we have to break down our bias.

[383] is about the entertainment we want to see because then we'll get surprised.

[384] Like, that's the only way because I truly am at the end of Netflix at this point.

[385] Like, I am watching shit where I'm like, fine, fine, I'll watch it.

[386] Right, fine.

[387] If it's the first thing on, I'll click on it.

[388] So we can dig deep in things that we know are good.

[389] They just take maybe longer to hook into.

[390] I just realized that when I said that about prejudices, I realized that I probably have always figured Game of Thrones was anti -Semitic and that maybe is one of the reasons I've never watched it, right?

[391] Is there a goddamn Jew in there?

[392] I bet there isn't.

[393] And guess how many Jews were in the Middle Ages?

[394] A lot.

[395] But it's not the Middle Ages.

[396] It's total fantasy.

[397] That's, see, the problem I had?

[398] This, it's all like, you see this chain mail.

[399] And then you're like, so was there a big wall in, like, Northern Scotland?

[400] Or was a single person not white?

[401] Like, can we get some diversity?

[402] Oh, you will.

[403] Okay.

[404] You will.

[405] But there's not a ton.

[406] Oh, also, have you gotten far enough in that you've met the hound?

[407] they're really tall no i haven't met the hound and i i like know from you know ads or whatever that that a fucking dragon is coming for calisi so i'm like ready for that oh yeah for her to spread her wings oh my she's about to in a real way i can tell and she's going to ruin her brother which is exciting do you want breaking news always so we'll so we're coming back we will revisit game of thrones later i love that we actually did this and we didn't book club it and we talked about a half an hour about it.

[408] Like, what more does one want?

[409] Everyone who's never seen it and never will who just skipped forward, hi, we're back.

[410] This is, here we are, Skipper.

[411] A G -O -T -Skipper.

[412] Fair enough.

[413] This was a tweet that came in today and this is from Laura Tavares on Twitter who let me know.

[414] The candy corn is turkey dinner flavored and it is vile.

[415] Did you get these messages?

[416] I did.

[417] Each piece is a different flavor.

[418] The coffee and pie ones are pretty good.

[419] Sure.

[420] Okay.

[421] So last week when I told you about brocches.

[422] Rocks.

[423] Rocks fucking disgusting candy corn Thanksgiving dinner.

[424] And we were like, that can't be Thanksgiving dinner.

[425] Everyone told us it's actually Thanksgiving dinner.

[426] So I corrected you.

[427] I'd never even had it, but I was like, there's no way they made candy corn.

[428] Oh, yeah, you're right.

[429] There's no way.

[430] No way.

[431] I was entirely wrong.

[432] It's pretty brilliant marketing on their part, right?

[433] Because I ordered us some.

[434] Did you really?

[435] so in the next two to three weeks when it arrives we're eating it eating on podcasting is just that you're not allowed to but I think for this special occasion maybe we'll save it for Thanksgiving yeah that's a good idea for this special occasion you're going to hear us chew maybe Stephen can mute it a little bit whatever yeah we won't we'll try to chew away from Mike but then give our reactions into Mike but I'm my mind is blown Laura thank you and whoever else messages so many people the poor people the the Now I'm excited that I was wrong.

[436] I realize, too, that there's a lot of those kinds of things where I just take what I'm hearing and then I just go, that's not possible.

[437] You put it through a filter of.

[438] Can you imagine that?

[439] There's no way.

[440] What candy company would do themselves the disservice?

[441] But then thinking about it, we're like, brilliant.

[442] And also, how many flavors does Oreo have now?

[443] And they clearly don't care about how it tastes anymore.

[444] Because people who buy it don't either.

[445] Also, fuck Nabisco.

[446] Fuck Nabisco.

[447] Fuck Nabisco.

[448] just go to hell fucking unionize everyone workers rights fuck you guys if you work not fuck workers rights fuck corporations workers rights well you can't if your company succeeded in quarantine because your workers busted ass and worked overtime and then afterwards you said we're not paying you we're going to take all that away and not like they give you a fucking living wage to begin with right and if you unionize you're fired that shit's bullshit like let let's take a real look at that and not support businesses who work that way.

[449] And that's kind of the beauty.

[450] To me, the beauty of these news stories that we keep seeing where people are like, guess what?

[451] Everybody at this drive -thru quit.

[452] Buy, get your hamburger somewhere else.

[453] The power has always been with the workers.

[454] That's fucking right.

[455] Always.

[456] I have a news article for you.

[457] Oh, yeah.

[458] That I just thought was really interesting that I found on the Unresolved Mysteries Reddit.

[459] Okay, let me just read you the quick part of it.

[460] And here's this old, see this old man, photo?

[461] This says in 1991, a man vanishes after telling his family he's going on a business trip.

[462] Vanishes without a trace.

[463] 2021, so just now, car stops in front of this man's house and drops him off.

[464] What?

[465] He's wearing the same clothes he disappeared in in 1991.

[466] No. He can't remember where he's been all these years.

[467] Convenient.

[468] Yeah, I don't know.

[469] And it looks like he was well taken care of.

[470] So it's the case of Mr. George's G -O -R -G -O -S.

[471] So new family, right, had dementia.

[472] That's what everyone's theorizing on Reddit.

[473] That someone took him in because he was just lost and needed help?

[474] No, that he had a secret fucking family.

[475] He starts losing his memory and dementia probably.

[476] And they're like, let's get rid of grandpa.

[477] Bring him back.

[478] And how would they know where to bring him?

[479] Or maybe he had dementia, got in the car and was like, oh, here's my home address.

[480] thinks back to his old home address.

[481] They drop him off.

[482] But why is he wearing the same clothes?

[483] And also, why is he keeping a piece of paper with his home address in his pocket?

[484] I don't know, but he has his train ticket from 1991 when he was supposed to leave in his pocket.

[485] So he really was supposed to go on a business trip?

[486] I think so, but like nobody can figure out what he was doing and where he was.

[487] Oh, we got to track this story.

[488] Yeah.

[489] That's fascinating.

[490] Fucking mysterious, right?

[491] So does he currently have Alzheimer's or dementia?

[492] I don't know.

[493] I don't know, but all it says is he can't remember where he's bit.

[494] So it might be amnesia.

[495] Could be dementia.

[496] It could be lying.

[497] I mean, right?

[498] That's one.

[499] What's the whole Schrodinger's cat?

[500] No, not that one.

[501] The dead cat in the box?

[502] No, no, the one where what's the most obvious answer and it's true?

[503] Oh, that's the, that's the, it's like the, the knife, the, the, the so -and -so's scythe, what the fuck is it called?

[504] Occam's razor.

[505] Occam's razor.

[506] A knife razor.

[507] And you were on the right track there.

[508] I was a little close.

[509] No, no, yeah.

[510] You were on the right track.

[511] Drop me off of my old house, please.

[512] So I think lying is the.

[513] It could be, but, God, I mean, also same clothes.

[514] Same clothes.

[515] That's weird.

[516] That's a weird.

[517] Crazy twist.

[518] Ticket in his pocket.

[519] Like, it makes it seem like he went, hit his head, was hospitalized for 20 years, got up, and came home.

[520] Right.

[521] And the staff's like, e -oh.

[522] we lost another patient.

[523] That's a great example.

[524] What I just did was a great example of Occam's razor of that's the simplest explanation, but it makes no sense.

[525] And who would pay that bill at the end of the day?

[526] Well, they're not in America.

[527] They're in a different country, so it's probably free.

[528] Socialized medicine?

[529] Romania.

[530] So it's like, well, we're not going to bankrupt you because you had to go to the hospital.

[531] God, we are getting political on this episode.

[532] We don't give a fuck.

[533] We don't care.

[534] I have an apology to make to my dog, Frank.

[535] I posted a photo without blacking out his eyes or doing any kind of privacy scramble in his face, which he was very upset about after, but we got so excited to post that picture.

[536] Yeah, no, you're right.

[537] We should have been funny.

[538] Damn it.

[539] We really missed an opportunity.

[540] Oh, also in rural areas, many male people, male carriers, have to drive their own car.

[541] Oh.

[542] So people, instead of being in an actual.

[543] U .S. Postal Service truck that's customized, so you're sitting on the right?

[544] We talked about this last week.

[545] We talked about that, and I corrected you because I was like that the postal trucks, you drive, you're sitting on the right so you can deliver next to the thing.

[546] That's not true.

[547] It is true.

[548] It's true in city areas.

[549] In rural areas, some postmen have to use, or postal mail carriers, have to use their own cars.

[550] So they literally sit in the passenger seat with their foot over.

[551] Yes.

[552] Yes, driving from the passenger seat so they can do that.

[553] Didn't we make a joke about that?

[554] That's not safe, people.

[555] But it's rural.

[556] So it's like way easier.

[557] That's how I learned to drive.

[558] I feel like anything goes.

[559] Are you, well, I did that with my sister too.

[560] I learned to shift by sitting in a passenger seat and she'd be like, shift now, shift now.

[561] Yep.

[562] Well, I learned by my cousin Stevie yelling dead body and then slumping all the way over so that I had to jump over.

[563] He would still gas it.

[564] He would actually gas it faster.

[565] Oh, my God.

[566] And then I had to jump over his body and start steering.

[567] It was, and he would always go, I'm training you in case something bad.

[568] Oh, my God.

[569] I told you about how my brother was in a car with his best friend on the freeway in traffic.

[570] His friend has a fucking seizure.

[571] He has, my brother jumps over and fucking safely in like rush out, not rush hour, but like fast traffic pulls the fucking car off the freeway.

[572] Like saved their lives.

[573] Wow, Asher.

[574] Asher killed.

[575] But Asher also is the person, big brother.

[576] fucking ask who will just turn on my windshield wipers pull my fucking handbrake with my turn my lights up dude like he'll just fuck with you though and just crack up the whole time it's fucking asshole no i like him genius um so thank you for all the people who were representing rural male male carriers and uh yeah i guess that's good to know hey um two books super fucking fast here we go no you don't have to go fast okay this book okay by carroll john stone so So J -O -H -N -S -E -O -H -N -Sioni.

[577] Fucking, I just finished it.

[578] Spooky Twist and Turns, like, when you shout, when you're listening to a book, no fucking way, you know, like that sort of like, twins, one is missing, or is she?

[579] Is it murder?

[580] Who murdered her?

[581] Who done it?

[582] But also in a fucking spooky house in the middle of Scotland.

[583] Yes.

[584] So she's this, like, Scottish author.

[585] She's like, I listen to it.

[586] So, of course, I've been listening to a Scottish accent for a week, which is so fun.

[587] Just like singing.

[588] And this is her first.

[589] this is her debut novel and it's like one of the best fucking books I've listened into in years.

[590] Great.

[591] So I'm really excited and happy for her.

[592] Congratulations Carol Johnstone.

[593] Is that her name Carol?

[594] Carol with an E at the end.

[595] Yeah.

[596] Carol E. Johnstone E. Yeah.

[597] Nice.

[598] Mirrorland.

[599] Mirrorland.

[600] Mirror land.

[601] And then the other one and I can't not, I know everything about this case.

[602] So I think and I can't not listen to a fucking book about the Oakland County Child Killers, which you've covered very well.

[603] I listened to like four books or like, you know, stories about it.

[604] And this one's called The Snow Killings by Marnie Rich Keenan.

[605] And it's just as awful.

[606] Yeah.

[607] The thing about that fucking case and why I'm obsessed with it, I think, is just how many fucking pedophiles were going crazy in the 70s everywhere.

[608] Yes.

[609] There's so many suspects because there's so many fucking pedophiles that are never locked up or if they are it's for like eight months or statute of limitations there's so many pedophile rings they're working in all sorts of fucking different like levels of the fucking industry i don't know what i'm saying i think what's fascinating about true crime as a trend is i think it reflects the the continued fear and concern that everyone has where it's like when these things first started getting getting discovered, it was like, Johnny, gosh, there's no way he disappeared and was taken by a pedophile ring.

[610] That's crazy, quote, quote, that's crazy.

[611] And as time has passed, we've learned over and over, not only is it not crazy, these people are around.

[612] And it's someone they probably know.

[613] It's maybe someone you know, maybe someone you trust, maybe they're in a position of trust so they can access your kids.

[614] Like, it's all that, the horror, like, awakening discovery of like the 80s, 90s, 2000s.

[615] is why, in my opinion, we have the true crime trend that we have now because that's people who grew up in it and are like, wake up everybody.

[616] Yeah, there's no stranger danger.

[617] It's fucking Jerry Sandesky danger, fucking Jimmy Seville danger.

[618] Yeah.

[619] All right.

[620] We solved that.

[621] That's a good one.

[622] Oh, I'll say a TV show I purely stumbled on.

[623] And this is my, this is what I live for in terms of finding a TV show.

[624] No one recommended it to me. I didn't hear any kind of an ad for it.

[625] didn't, nothing.

[626] Suddenly, there's a picture of a TV show called Chapelweight starring Adrian Brody and everyone's friend, Emily Hampshire, from Schitts Creek, Stevie from Schitts Creek.

[627] Oh, yeah.

[628] It takes place in the early 1800s.

[629] There are hauntings.

[630] There are people with typhoid.

[631] There, it's like this weird thing of this small town and I believe, I think it was Maine.

[632] They're kind of, and they inherit a mansion, but it's creepy.

[633] What's it called?

[634] It's called Chapelweight.

[635] You know how they do like the book, Chapel Wait by whoever, wherever, this one should be called Chapel Wait for Karen Kilgareth.

[636] Literally, you couldn't have, it's like someone went into my brain.

[637] They're like, well, what we discovered about you is you love a period piece.

[638] You love people in a house away from everybody.

[639] A haunting, the town being against the family.

[640] There's race issues because it's back, you know, everything's secrets in the town that they don't want outsiders to find out about.

[641] it's such it's a really good show right now there's only four episodes but I think more are coming and it's really good episodes are coming like winter is coming that's right he looks so confused I was just like what the fuck are you talking about sorry what's this now okay good I want to watch I'm actually definitely going to watch that actually definitely I'm gonna watch that should we oh should we ask everybody we know you're going to get mad but calm down what are we talking about we need more hometown Now, we're going to guide you through how to get your hometown read quickly and succinctly.

[642] We've never given you guys like guidelines to make it so that we actually will pick your hometown.

[643] And that's kind of on us.

[644] That's not true.

[645] We've done it a bunch of times.

[646] We have.

[647] Like, because it has to be short.

[648] There are people that are sending in hometowns and literally they go on for three printed pages.

[649] We cannot read that.

[650] We're like half a page.

[651] And please be good at.

[652] The paragraph breaks.

[653] We'd love a good paragraph break.

[654] Yes, you have to break those paragraphs based on the action.

[655] Like, get in there and really find the spine of the story and tell us a story.

[656] But, you know, shouting out your friends and giving us your grandmother's entire history, although we love it personally.

[657] Yeah, tell us her name.

[658] We got to, we got to get to the point.

[659] So if you're one of those people, it's like, I've sent it in three times and I never get read.

[660] It's a different character.

[661] It's a different girl.

[662] It's a different character.

[663] We beg you to try it again and then just look back on what you sent in.

[664] Were there no paragraph breaks?

[665] Did it go on and on?

[666] Or was it like succinct and like, because here's the other thing too.

[667] People start writing like they enjoy writing.

[668] Yeah.

[669] And it adds so much.

[670] No, I'm saying don't do it.

[671] Oh.

[672] It adds to the bulk.

[673] Uh -huh.

[674] So make sure you're not trim the fat.

[675] Yeah.

[676] Be your own great.

[677] editor.

[678] Be a great hometown writer design person.

[679] You know, I've always loved hometown writing design and you know that about me. Just try, like listen to a couple episodes before you start writing your own and then when we go, like, you'll just see that there's like a pattern of people who are like clever but not super like, you know, cocky about their cleverness and know how to tell a story from beginning to middle to end.

[680] Yeah.

[681] Yeah.

[682] So send those to my favorite murder at Gmail.

[683] I think there's a place on our website.

[684] And also, if you have heard all these notes and you still say, I wrote mine perfectly and it never got read, please give us another chance.

[685] Just please resubmit because we're just starting to put an organizational process into the way we're doing.

[686] Like, guys, we just got producers.

[687] We just got producers.

[688] So we've been so busy trying to make our podcast network exactly right media, this like beautiful place where hosts are supported and given everything they need and we totally forgot that we actually have a show too that needs those.

[689] We need a lot of support.

[690] It's only taken us five and a half years to realize that Stephen Ray Morris, although he does it really well and tries, cannot do everything.

[691] Not for this size of a show.

[692] Cannot and should not.

[693] He used to have to.

[694] He used to have to.

[695] And didn't get paid for months because I was doing the fucking accounting.

[696] Look, we started from the bottom now we're here.

[697] That's right.

[698] So yeah, do that for us.

[699] If you would, don't be mad.

[700] We love you.

[701] Thanks so much.

[702] Okay, everybody.

[703] Is it time to tell some stories to each other?

[704] I think so.

[705] And you're first, right?

[706] Wait, hold on.

[707] Before we start, can you poke the dog?

[708] Yeah.

[709] As you were just doing.

[710] And look at how offended he is.

[711] He's like, Frank is flat out asleep at the middle of the day.

[712] I just poked him and he looked around like, sorry, what?

[713] Well, he's like me when Vince is like, yeah, you snore.

[714] I'm horribly offended because he's lying.

[715] How dare you say such a thing?

[716] Frank's like, I don't fucking snore, actually.

[717] Frank's like, it is my right to eat and sleep and not have a job.

[718] You know, when you're first dating someone and they tell you that either you snore or you fart in your sleep and you're just like, this relationship's over.

[719] I can never face you again, Vince.

[720] The one I always get is talking in my sleep.

[721] Apparently I talk in my sleep a ton.

[722] What do you say?

[723] Not sure.

[724] I think it's not true.

[725] I'm going to say that you and I are both lovely.

[726] We look like sleeping fucking beauty.

[727] Oh my god.

[728] One hand is always up by our forehead.

[729] That's right.

[730] Tons of lip gloss.

[731] There's a bird landing on our shoulder.

[732] Just taking off the spiders that everyone else eat eight of every year.

[733] Not us.

[734] Not us.

[735] Beautiful sleepers.

[736] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[737] Absolutely.

[738] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[739] Exactly.

[740] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[741] But did you know that they also power.

[742] in -person sales?

[743] That's right.

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[745] Give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[746] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in -person.

[747] So give your point -of -sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[748] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[749] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales.

[750] And if you're a business owner, you can too.

[751] Connect with customers in line and online.

[752] Do retail right with Shopify.

[753] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[754] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[755] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[756] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[757] Goodbye.

[758] So this week, I'm going to do the murders of Ed Buck.

[759] Okay.

[760] Now, you, do you know this one?

[761] This is a Los Angeles murder story, and it actually just, it's relatively recent.

[762] The awareness started in 2017.

[763] And, okay, let me just tell you.

[764] I'm off the top of my head, no. Okay.

[765] Let's do this.

[766] But I'm like, how do I not know about this?

[767] Let's fucking do it.

[768] So the reason the story ever really got attention is because of, of course, the victim's families who wouldn't arrest, community activists, and a journalist named Jasmine Kannick.

[769] And her tenacity, her hard work, and her, like, you know, her big heart and her care about this injustice brought this story to the public.

[770] Her website is called I am Jasmine, J -A -S -M -Y -N -E dot com.

[771] And her social media accounts, like those together were the reason this story got coverage and it got the attention it deserved.

[772] Amazing.

[773] Other sources for the story include Los Angeles' ABC 7 News, the L .A. Times, WeHoville.

[774] dot com, which is a website for West Hollywood, The Guardian, The New York Times, Wikipedia, NPR, and justice .gov. All the good ones.

[775] Yeah.

[776] All the greats.

[777] Okay.

[778] So it's the spring of 2017, and Jamel Moore moves from Los Angeles to Texas to live with his mom, Letitia Nixon.

[779] So Jamel had been living a very rough life in L .A. He was struggling with addiction and homelessness, and he was trying to make money working as an escort, but it all had gotten to be too much for him, and luckily he gets along great with his mom, Letitia, and he knows that moving back in with her would give him the new start that he so desperately needed.

[780] So he leaves Los Angeles and moves back home.

[781] A couple months later, on July 27th, an old acquaintance reaches out through text and makes Jamel an offer that he can't resist.

[782] He is going to pay for Jamel to fly back to Los Angeles, basically, to party.

[783] And later the same day.

[784] So Jamel takes him up on that offer.

[785] It made me think, and my heart broke thinking about when I was relatively the same age, a little bit younger, moving back home to my hometown.

[786] Yeah.

[787] After flunking out of college, and there's no one like my age there, I'm literally hanging out with my parents going to their friends' parties.

[788] Like, it was, and any time I, I had the chance to go back to Sacramento to visit my friends or go into San Francisco, I would take it because, like, you're just, you know.

[789] Like a social wasteland at your back home because you flunked out.

[790] Like, right?

[791] You feel terrible.

[792] You feel terrible.

[793] And if he was trying to say get sober, this is like four months in where right when it's like the hard work begins.

[794] Yeah.

[795] And someone's like, hey, come back to L .A. for like a glamorous sexy weekend or whatever.

[796] Totally.

[797] Okay.

[798] So that same day, the day that he.

[799] flies back to L .A., Jamel Morris found dead in a man named Ed Buck's West Hollywood apartment.

[800] When the coroner arrives, Jamel's death is immediately ruled an accidental crystal meth overdose.

[801] When Jamel's family is given the news, they immediately express their concern that there could possibly be foul play.

[802] But the sheriff's department makes a decision to not investigate Jamel's death.

[803] So the accidental overdose conclusion stands.

[804] But let's Tisha Nixon isn't ready to give up the fight.

[805] So she reaches out to local Los Angeles reporters hoping to get her son's story out to the public.

[806] She reaches reporter Dennis Romero, who then puts her in touch with a journalist and a political strategist named Jasmine Canick.

[807] He feels Jasmine would be a great journalistic fit, and he's right.

[808] As Jasmine starts investigating, she uncovers some truly disturbing information about Ed Buck.

[809] And soon, more young, black, gay men come forward with, harrowing stories about being victimized by him.

[810] Fuck.

[811] So first we'll talk about who Ed Buck is.

[812] Because, of course, no one had heard him before, heard of him before.

[813] But when this, basically, when this came to a head, it was near the end of 2019.

[814] And I think one of the main reasons this got a ton of press was because Ed Buck was, he was a billed, basically, or he kept being mentioned as a Democratic donor.

[815] he kept being called that and this was of course like in the height of the re -election process and it's all the news so I think a lot of places ran with that and it's the only way they described this man. It's like fuel for Democratic donor yeah but you know that's how it got out there and whatever whatever it took so originally Edward Peter Buckmelter was born on August 24th 1954 in Ohio mostly grew up in Phoenix at age 16, he comes out as gay.

[816] And after college, he moves to Europe.

[817] He spends five years acting and modeling.

[818] And then in 1980, he moves back to Arizona, gets a job working for his friend's company called Rapid Information Services.

[819] So this business provides driver's license info to insurance companies.

[820] And it's not doing well.

[821] It's basically knocking on the door of bankruptcy.

[822] But Ed, despite his lack of business experience, sees potential in it.

[823] So after a year and a half, he buys this business for $250 ,000 and renames it Gofer Courier.

[824] And just five years later, he sells the company for more than a million dollars profit.

[825] So he basically, he's kind of made himself a bit.

[826] So he now tries other business ventures.

[827] He opens a restaurant.

[828] He dips into the payphone business.

[829] Good news is he loses money on both.

[830] And the next year, in 1987, he now finds his footing in politics.

[831] So at the time, there was a Republican named Evan Meacham, who was Arizona's 17th governor, and he is a racist.

[832] He publicly calls black children pickenities.

[833] He revokes MLK Day as a paid holiday for state employees.

[834] He blames the higher divorce rate of recent years on women wanting jobs.

[835] And he's allegedly misusing funds, including $350 ,000 in a campaign loan that he didn't disclose as legally required.

[836] So Ed Buck is registered as a Republican at this time, but he's very much against Meachem.

[837] He launches a campaign to impeach Meach him.

[838] The governor's defenders try to tear down Ed's efforts simply by saying he's gay, but in the end, the impeach campaign is successful.

[839] And this earns Ed some political class.

[840] He winds up switching to the Democratic Party in 1988.

[841] And then over the course of the next few years, he holds a couple of political fundraisers for gay and lesbian political campaign funds and HIV and AIDS services.

[842] And then in 1991 at the age of 37, he moves to West Hollywood where he continues participating in local politics.

[843] He even runs for West Hollywood City Council in 2007, but he doesn't win.

[844] He still shows up to public council and chamber of commerce meetings to push back on the quote -unquote establishment and reform policies that he feel strongly about.

[845] He's also a big political donor, which is where this came in.

[846] So his donation records are long, totally more than half a million dollars to mostly Democratic -affiliated politicians and organizations.

[847] But fighting for gay rights doesn't automatically make you a good person.

[848] And Ed Buck's political resume is not convincing Letitia Nixon or Jasmine Canick that he's in any way innocent.

[849] And after the L .A. Sheriff's Department refuses to investigate, Letitia calls up a friend of Jamel's to dig deeper for herself.

[850] When she asks this friend, if he knows Ed Buck, he reacts with horror.

[851] Like Jamel, this friend works as an escort, and Ed had been one of his clients, too.

[852] According to the friend, Ed would have Jamel, quote, go out to Santa Monica Boulevard, looking for young, gay, black guys, so he could inject them with drugs, see their reaction, and take pictures of them.

[853] Oh, my God.

[854] So when the police hand over Jamel's recovered belongings, Letitia finds Jamel's journal in the stack, and his entries seem to confirm the bleak picture Jamel's friend had painted.

[855] In the entries, which are dated back to the end of 2016 and the beginning of 2017, Jamel explicitly writes about his addiction, issues, and about Ed Buck.

[856] The entries read, quote, I honestly don't know what to do.

[857] I've become addicted to drugs and the worst one at that.

[858] Ed Buck is the one to think.

[859] he gave me my first injection of crystal meth it was very painful but after all the troubles i became addicted to the pain and the fetish slash fantasy my life is at an all time high right now and i mean that in all ways i ended up back at buck's house again and got manipulated into slamming which means injecting drugs again i even went to the point where i was forced to doing uh to doing it four times within a two -day period.

[860] This man is crazy and it's sad.

[861] Will I ever get help?

[862] Oh my God.

[863] That's heartbreaking.

[864] Yeah.

[865] So with no other tools besides the power of public opinion available to her, Letitia Nixon posts a video on social media on August 10th, 2017, demanding that the LA Sheriff's Department look into her son's death and investigate it as a murder.

[866] To boost support, Jasmine publishes Jamel's journal entries four days later.

[867] on August 14th, 2017.

[868] And as the news starts to spread, more young gay black men start to come forward with similar stories.

[869] One of those men, 28 -year -old Damar Love, sits down with Jasmine, the LA Times, and ABC 7 to tell his story.

[870] Essentially, Ed offers Damar a large sum of money to come to his West Hollywood apartment and quote -unquote hang out on the evening of July 3, 2017.

[871] Because Damar had been there before.

[872] He knew the drill.

[873] He expects Ed will want to take photos of him.

[874] He shows Jasmine some of the photos and the videos of Ed Buck's apartment that he still had that further corroborate his story and Jamel's journal entries.

[875] Once DeMar is there at the apartment, Ed gives him a glass of water and Demar almost immediately blacks out.

[876] When he comes to, he realizes that his hands are tied.

[877] My God.

[878] Ed Buck is standing over him holding a taser that has a flashlight on it.

[879] Demar seems he's another taser nearby and grabs it to defend himself.

[880] After a standoff, Damar escapes the apartment.

[881] He tries to get help from local police, but they don't believe his story, and they just assume he's a drug addict who's just really high because he's been shot up with drugs.

[882] DeMar finally finds some EMTs who believe his story, and he's taken to the hospital.

[883] Just a few weeks later on July 27th, Jamel dies in Ed Buck's apartment.

[884] Demar, love, thankful to be alive, assures Jasmine.

[885] that Ed Buck is nothing short of a monster.

[886] DeMar's stories published, and that, along with the entries from Jamel Moore's journal, make it impossible for the L .A. County Sheriff's Department to hide from the demand to take a serious look at Jamel's case.

[887] And on August 15, 2017, they finally launched a homicide investigation 19 days after Jamel's death.

[888] I mean, that's quick fucking work.

[889] Shit like this, when the family and journalists have to get involved can take years.

[890] Absolutely.

[891] It's pretty incredible, like, that their drive got it that quick.

[892] Definitely.

[893] Well, yeah, the action and what they were, what they were posting and what they were, like, putting on social media and basically saying, Jamel was not the first victim.

[894] They don't have proof of anything else except for this man victimized the perfect voiceless contingent of people, young, black, gay men who were either potentially already addicted to drugs or that he was addicting to Crystal meth, which as we know, and we've talked about on this podcast, is the worst fucking drug.

[895] You're immediately addicted to it.

[896] Like, it's so fucked up.

[897] So he, yeah, it's horrible.

[898] So as the police begin their investigation, relying almost solely on information and witnesses the Jasmine Canick and Jamel Moore's family's attorney, Nana Jumphy, have found themselves.

[899] They start reaching out to these surviving victims for official interviews.

[900] But wisely, these survivors all refuse to speak to the police without immunity.

[901] Many of them have used drugs and or engaged in sex work, both of which are technically illegal.

[902] So they want to make sure that they're covered.

[903] The investigators claim that they don't have the authority to give them immunity, which immediately makes me think of how the Sackler family was just given immunity for basically being responsible for pushing OxyContin on the name.

[904] right and the the fucking opioid addiction issue that we have in this country and so if you're rich and your weight right and you made the drugs you can have immunity that's right it's insane a vigil for jemelle moors held in west hollywood on august 18th um that same day representative karen bass who once received a donation from ed buck issues a statement denouncing him and then returns his two hundred and fifty dollar donation and her statement reads, I am stunned by the news of Jamel's death and the tragic and sad circumstances surrounding it.

[905] Nine years ago, I received a $250 contribution from Edward Buck.

[906] I do not know him, but what I'm hearing and reading about this conduct with Jamel is deeply disturbing.

[907] If there are other victims, they should come forward immediately.

[908] It is my hope that law enforcement is prepared to investigate and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

[909] My thoughts are with the friends and family of Jamel this evening.

[910] Damn.

[911] What was her name?

[912] That's Representative Karen Bass.

[913] That's how you do it.

[914] Later after researching and publicly naming all political figures who have taken donations from Ed Buck, Jasmine Canick calls on all of them to return any money they've received.

[915] Only a handful of them do, of course.

[916] Because we can all rationalize everything.

[917] On August 21, 2017, Latisha asked the West Hollywood City Council to grant all witnesses who come forward against Ed Buck, blanket immunity.

[918] Some council members, like Lindsay Horvath, agree, but the West Hollywood mayor, pro tem, John Duran disagrees.

[919] He says no investigators nor city officials can grant immunity, stating, quote, transparency doesn't always work with the criminal justice system.

[920] Transparency can subject you to criminal arrest and prosecution.

[921] So before you do anything, you should seek legal counsel to advise you on how to proceed forward before you speak to law enforcement.

[922] Now, interestingly, Duran received thousands of dollars and donations from Ed Buck over the years.

[923] Well, shit.

[924] And even represented Ed Buck as his lawyer.

[925] Oh, what a coincidence.

[926] So, on August 31st, 2017, despite Duran's efforts, and thanks to attorney, Nana Jumphy, immunity is finally granted to witnesses and victims who speak with the police about their encounters with Ed Buck.

[927] That's right.

[928] So it works.

[929] Now more stories roll in about young gay black men, a majority of them unhoused, who Ed Buck contacted via dating apps and websites offering to pay them to come to his apartment and do meth with him while watching porn.

[930] One young man who publicly goes by Blake describes how Ed offered him money for, quote, party and play, unquote, which means doing meth and having sex.

[931] Ed injects Blake with far.

[932] more meth than he can handle and forces him to model white underwear in his apartment while Ed takes pictures.

[933] Many men recount Ed calling them the N -word and reacting violently if they tried to leave the apartment before Ed wanted them to.

[934] And they all described the same red toolbox where Ed kept all of his drugs.

[935] Coke, meth, heroin, pipes, needles, you name it, it's in the toolbox.

[936] So then on September 18th, 2017, Ed Buck's lawyer, Seam well.

[937] Amster, who is actually the same attorney who defended Lonnie Franklin the Grim Sleeper.

[938] Whoa.

[939] Criminal defense attorney.

[940] He attends a West Hollywood City Council meeting to try and clear Ed Buck's name.

[941] Uh -huh.

[942] He claims that council member Lindsay Horvath is targeting Ed Buck for character assassination and that Ed is grieving over the loss of his friend.

[943] Uh -huh.

[944] Meaning Jamel.

[945] Yeah.

[946] He announces his request for an ethics investigation on Lindsay Horvath.

[947] Holy shit.

[948] Yeah.

[949] So he went all that.

[950] I mean, he had to, right?

[951] That's what they do the crazier shit when it's like it's the, the evidence is piling up against their clients.

[952] So then they're like, no, no, no, let's let's all look over here.

[953] Join me over here.

[954] Well, we're going to look at this guy.

[955] But two days later on September 20th, 2017, a witness going by the name of Brian comes forward to say that on September 11th, 2017, Ed Buck chatted with him on the gay dating site, Adam for Adam, and sent an Uber to pick him up.

[956] and bring him to ed's apartment text messages show ed telling brian that he's quote into watching porn kicking back blowing clouds showing off in underwear and gym clothes with lots of mirrors cock rings pumps shit like that end quote wow all of which correlates to previous witness statements so brian shows up at ed's apartment around 1230 at night and while he brings his own drugs ed insists that they take his While Brian refuses, Ed becomes angry and pushy.

[957] Red fucking flag.

[958] Yeah.

[959] Brian starts to feel uncomfortable.

[960] The final straw comes when Ed asks Brian if he can call him the N word.

[961] Brian musters up an excuse to leave and manages to make it out safely.

[962] But the whole scenario shows that not only is Ed Buck not grieving for the loss of his friend, he's still doing exactly what he did the night Jamel Moore was murdered.

[963] Oh, my God.

[964] So on July 26, 2018, despite incriminating text conversations, photos, videos, and more, District Attorney Jackie Lacey declines to bring criminal charges against Ed Buck, saying that there's insufficient evidence.

[965] So, of course, Jasmine Canick is outraged by this announcement, so she takes to Twitter and issues a warning.

[966] If another young, black, gay man overdoses or worse, dies at Democratic donor Ed Buck's apartment, it's going to be the fault of the sheriff's department and L .A. district attorney for not stopping him when they had the opportunity to.

[967] So guess what happens now?

[968] No. Sure enough, six months later on January 7th, 2019, another black man, Timothy Michael Dean, age 55, is found dead in Ed Buck's apartment.

[969] And like Jamel, Timothy had died from a meth overdose.

[970] Oh, my God.

[971] But this time, because of the good trouble that lives, Letitia Nixon started on behalf of her own son, a cause that Jazz Mechanic then took up as her own.

[972] This time, the L .A. County Sheriff's Department are investigating Timothy's death as a homicide.

[973] Ed Buck's attorney makes a statement to the media that at this point, Ed has not been charged with any crimes and claims that Timothy was just a friend of Ed's who had asked to come over, that Ed had not invited him.

[974] Ed's stories that he was reluctant to let Timothy come over, but when he did, he saw that Timothy was acting strangely.

[975] So he called 911.

[976] But when the coroner report on Timothy Dean's death comes out on March 25th, it reveals that Timothy died of a combination of alcohol and injected meth.

[977] And that Ed Buck waited at least 15 minutes after the drug was administered to call 911.

[978] Oh, shit.

[979] Science.

[980] Right.

[981] So it's true that Timothy Dean and Ed Buck were friendly over the years.

[982] They played in the same gay basketball league together.

[983] but a friend and roommate of Timothy's named Atavio Taddy told the New York Times that he's, quote, personally never seen Timothy using drugs and never seen him in the apparent state of alteration caused by any form of drug.

[984] He went on to say, quote, I consider this whole tragedy extremely controversial and I do hope the police department will dig into it.

[985] So this is Timothy's roommate going, excuse me, I'm telling you this guy didn't do drugs.

[986] Right.

[987] If anyone knows, like, you coming home or whatever, if you're fucked up, it's your fucking roommate.

[988] It's your roommate.

[989] Yeah.

[990] Okay, so this time, the police do dig into it.

[991] All thanks to the hard work of Jazz Mechanic, Nana Jumphy, and the team behind Justice for Jamel, which advocated for the victims of Ed Buck since 2017.

[992] So four days after Timothy Dean's death becomes known, it's on January 11th, about 100 people gather to protest outside of Ed Buck's West Hollywood apartment.

[993] And this time it gets covered by the news.

[994] So this is where I first heard about this whole thing going down.

[995] And I will never forget it because it was a big crowd outside of this apartment building.

[996] And what they were saying, it was like, two men have died in this man's apartment.

[997] And the second I heard that in the news report, I was like, oh, this is so bad.

[998] It's going to be so many more.

[999] Like something super suspicious and fucked up.

[1000] And not being fucking addressed.

[1001] Yes.

[1002] Not being addressed.

[1003] And this is the first time we're hearing about it.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] There's already a hundred people who've already been hearing about it that have to protest because no one's doing it.

[1006] The only way to get the attention.

[1007] Okay.

[1008] So Jamel's mother, Letitia Nixon, is in the crowd that night.

[1009] She tells ABC 7 News, it's like my son has been killed all over again.

[1010] How much longer are you guys going to turn your head and act like you don't see anything until another dead.

[1011] black man is in here.

[1012] The crowd chants arrest Ed Buck.

[1013] They're furious that a white man could have two black men die in his home, possibly more, but the authorities refused to investigate the stories, and he's never faced any charges and has been left free to do it again.

[1014] Paul Scott, a member of L .A. Black Pride, who was also in the crowd that night, tells the press, if it was one of us and a white person was found dead in our home, the common sense would be first that we would go to jail.

[1015] This guy has yet to feel the steal of handcuffs.

[1016] It is painful to us.

[1017] So the media attention breaks the story internationally and eight months later on September 17th, 2019 Ed Buck is finally arrested and charged with three counts of battery causing serious injury, administering meth, and maintaining a drug house.

[1018] And two days after that, the charge of distribution of methamphetamine resulting in death, is added for the death of Jamel Moore, which was originally ruled an accident, but is now ruled a homicide.

[1019] Okay, awesome.

[1020] In an interview, Jasmine Kanek tells British newspaper The Guardian that authorities finally arrested Ed Buck because, quote, they were pushed by a community of people who were tired of seeing their people dying.

[1021] This was two years of the black LGBTQ community in Los Angeles and beyond not letting it go.

[1022] It was about damn time.

[1023] Fuck, yes.

[1024] So Ed Buck appears before a federal grand jury on October 2nd, 2019, where he's indicted on several narcotics distribution offenses, including injecting Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean with meth.

[1025] He's arraigned on October 10th, 2019, and pleads not guilty.

[1026] His trial is set for November 26th, same year, but due to COVID -19, it's pushed to January of 2021.

[1027] So these charges carry a minimum of 20 years in prison, but in the opinion of the justice for Jamel, legal.

[1028] team, they failed to illustrate Ed Buck's intent to do harm.

[1029] So like Jamel Moore's family, one year after Timothy Dean's death, his family files a civil suit for wrongful death on January 7th, 2020.

[1030] Attorney Hussain Turk, a member of the Justice for Jamel team, puts out this statement, quote, the wrongful death lawsuits fill in the substantial gaps created by the inadequate federal and state criminal complaints, neither of which direct.

[1031] directly addresses Ed Buc's racism or his alleged intentional killings of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean.

[1032] The civil lawsuits are important because they seek to hold Ed Bucks specifically accountable for engaging in racially and sexually motivated hate violence against black gay men.

[1033] These cases are not just about furnishing drugs that resulted in deaths and grievous bodily injuries.

[1034] These cases are colored by the racial identities and social positions of the victim.

[1035] and the perpetrator.

[1036] Ed Buck didn't just hand out drugs that resulted in the deaths of Mr. Moore and Mr. Dean.

[1037] Ed Buck deliberately and exclusively used drugs to commit disgusting acts of race -based sexual violence against a specific demographic.

[1038] He was a predator and he had an M .O. Yeah.

[1039] And he's not being held accountable for that at all.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] So when the federal court files are accessed, the testimony of Ed Buck's victims give light to a picture that is truly horrifying.

[1042] So this is a partial quote from an article by journalist Sam Levin writing for the Guardian, and it lists some of the victim's accounts.

[1043] One victim said he learned about Buck when he was homeless and living in a park and said that Buck was nicknamed Dr. Kovorkian, a reference to the pathologist known for helping terminal ill patients die.

[1044] This victim said it was part of Buck's quote role playing in fantasy to inject people with methamphetamine, end quote, and that although the victim had never injected meth before, Buck assured him that it would be fine.

[1045] Oh, shit.

[1046] He had never fucking done it before.

[1047] No. This guy convinces him.

[1048] Injecting drugs, too.

[1049] It's like, oh, it's, yeah.

[1050] So Ed Buck allegedly ignored this victim's agreement to only do a small dose, and he, quote, emptied an entire syringe into him, end quote.

[1051] Oh, my God.

[1052] Another time Buck injected this person, and he immediately lost consciousness, and in awoke to discover his anus bleeding and a third man filming him, the complaint said.

[1053] Another victim said when Buck injected him with a tranquilizer, it made him, quote, unable to move.

[1054] Adding that when Buck later wanted the victim to leave his home, Buck became frustrated and obtained a power saw from a closet, turned it on, and approached the victim with it.

[1055] That victim eventually escaped the apartment.

[1056] In another case, Buck gave the victim what the victim was.

[1057] thought was vodka, but he fell asleep or blacked out after consuming it.

[1058] The complaint said, this victim said he woke up to Buck injecting him with a syringe and panicked because he did not use meth, but he couldn't move when he tried to get up.

[1059] He also felt, quote, it's excruciating pain.

[1060] And when he tried to remove the metal clips fastened to his nipples, Buck just laughed.

[1061] The most recent victim who overdosed but survives told authorities that Buck solicited him for sex and distributed meth to him, quote, nearly every day during approximately a one -month period.

[1062] Holy shit.

[1063] It's keeping him prisoner.

[1064] Yes.

[1065] And also it's like he's now hooked these men on these drugs and now they have to come back to him for them.

[1066] Okay.

[1067] So in August 4th, 2020, Ed Buck is brought before federal grand jury again and they add another four charges to his list, including that he enticed victims to travel across straight state.

[1068] lines to engage in prostitution slash sex work, and this brings his total count to nine federal charges.

[1069] Meanwhile, DA Jackie Lacey tries to rid herself of the blame by pointing fingers at LA County Sheriff's Department.

[1070] She claims that they searched Ed Buck's infamous red toolbox illegally, thus making that evidence inadmissible.

[1071] The social justice groups on the ground aren't buying it, though, and because of their organizing and informational efforts, Jackie Lacey is voted out of office on November 3rd, 2020.

[1072] West Hollywood mayor pro tem John Duran is also voted out of office after defending his long -time friend Ed Buck publicly.

[1073] Yeah, dude.

[1074] What are you doing?

[1075] Fucking happens.

[1076] You know what I was thinking, too, about evidence is that if since in the very beginning, they didn't get a search warrant because they thought it was just an accidental death and like just completely ignored it, then he had time to get rid of all those fucking evidence, the videos and photographs.

[1077] Oh, yeah.

[1078] That would have proven what he was doing.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] It's just a perfect warning for a predator like that where it's like, oh, you better clean this up at least for a little while.

[1081] Yeah, until charges are filed, if ever.

[1082] So with ongoing issues around COVID -19, Ed Buck's trial is once again pushed to April 20th of this year.

[1083] Several survivors of Ed Buck's cruelty testify against him in court, sharing their harrowing stories of being solicited for sexual gratification and having drugs forced upon them, sometimes even while unconscious, and when the trial ends on July 27, 2021, Ed Buck is convicted of all nine charges against him.

[1084] His sentencing date hasn't been set yet, but the 67 -year -old faces anywhere from 20 years to life behind bars.

[1085] In an attempt to delay, Ed Buck makes a motion for judgment of acquittal, which the judge addresses on August 30th, 2021.

[1086] As Jasmine Kanek reports via Twitter, quote, Buck's attorney wants to toss the jury's verdict on the claim.

[1087] that the evidence at trial was insufficient for conviction, end quote.

[1088] Ed also complains that he hasn't had contact with his lawyers for a month, which the lawyers come back and say, that's simply not true.

[1089] The judge tentatively denies this motion, but grants Ed more time to confer with his legal team.

[1090] His legal team claims they already briefed Ed on everything he needed to know, but even still, the hearing to make a final call on this motion is pushed to October 18th of this year.

[1091] Holy shit.

[1092] It's still not looking good for Ed, but sentencings won't happen until this motion for judgment acquittal is dealt with.

[1093] As long as those guilty verdicts stand, which is likely, Ed Buck will spend the rest of his life in prison.

[1094] And while the harm he caused can never be undone, this case serves as a reminder of why the work of journalists like Jasmine Kanek need to be championed and protected.

[1095] Without her compassion and dedication, it's likely that Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean's deaths would have gone unnoticed, or would have been blamed on and explained away by people who want to point toward their quote -unquote lifestyles and away from the cold hard facts.

[1096] And it's likely that there would have been many, many more victims.

[1097] As Jasmine Carrick told NBC News, quote, our stories aren't told and our lives are seen as expendable.

[1098] It's very easy to write off someone who dies of a drug overdose who is working as a sex worker.

[1099] But Jamel was as much a part of our community as the many other young men like him.

[1100] It may not be pretty, but white gay men taking advantage of young black men in our community is not unusual.

[1101] It's just not talked about in mainstream, America.

[1102] End quote.

[1103] And that is the disturbing story of Ed Buck and the murders of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean.

[1104] Wow.

[1105] Karen.

[1106] Great job.

[1107] That's a fucking banana story.

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] It's horrifying.

[1110] Yeah, I'm so glad you told that.

[1111] I mean, that idea, like, the people...

[1112] That somebody is such a predator that they find people who will not be listened to.

[1113] They know for a fact.

[1114] Yeah.

[1115] It's just like a pedophile targeting a kid with like divorced parents or something where it's like it's them strategizing and how they can do it and how they can get away with it.

[1116] They do get away with it.

[1117] I mean, yeah, that's incredible.

[1118] But it's also amazing the people who rallied around to fucking take this predator down.

[1119] Well, Anna, what I think is beautiful, too, is that West Hollywood, which is, you know, a lot of people know is the gay part of Los Angeles, but it's also a very fancy part of Los Angeles.

[1120] It's a very fun, popular, you know, like a lot of people go there just at night.

[1121] There's great bars.

[1122] There's, it's a whole strip.

[1123] It's like a whole community.

[1124] But it truly is a community.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] And I think when once there was like a protest or it's like, sorry, what's going on, people knew they couldn't turn away anymore.

[1127] more.

[1128] And that, you know, I think West Hollywood as a community started to rally.

[1129] It wasn't just about a different group and it wasn't just about, you know, somebody else.

[1130] It's like it's happening here.

[1131] Everybody needs to start paying attention.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] Well, great job.

[1135] Thank you.

[1136] Okay.

[1137] So this actually, weirdly enough, comes mainly from an article that I found late one night in The Guardian.

[1138] Oh, yeah.

[1139] That I had never heard of the story before.

[1140] This really really great article was written by Doug Homer.

[1141] And so I used this article heavily for this piece.

[1142] And the article was called Bring Up the Bodies and then dot dot, the retired couple who find drowning victims.

[1143] Oh.

[1144] So it's this couple called Gene and Sandy Ralston.

[1145] Okay.

[1146] Raleston's.

[1147] So I'm going to tell you all about them.

[1148] Okay.

[1149] I also got some info from the Ralston's website, sonarreflections.

[1150] com and an Oregon Live article by Samantha Swindler and then a little bit off of Montana right now .com.

[1151] So let's start here, Karen, when a body needs to be found in a body of water, there are many different ways to try to locate them.

[1152] And this is a quote, I'll be quoting Doug Homer's article in The Guardian a little bit, quote, there are scuba divers and underwater cameras, dogs trained to detect the gases released by a body underwater, but none of these are good at searching large areas or probing deep water.

[1153] So divers who do look for bodies often face dangerous conditions, and most police departments don't have a ton of technology or the equipment to search large areas or deep water.

[1154] And those areas are often obstructed by sediment.

[1155] There's like trees underwater, all these crazy things.

[1156] It makes me think of someone knows something.

[1157] That's right, the first season of someone knows something.

[1158] Excellent podcast.

[1159] Everyone, check it out.

[1160] Yes.

[1161] And so it just, there's even times when divers just have to feel around in the darkness.

[1162] Oh.

[1163] Or even sometimes divers just have to feel around in the darkness.

[1164] Oh.

[1165] Sounds terrifying.

[1166] Horrifying.

[1167] So some bodies will surface on their own.

[1168] It depends on the water, if it's cold water, if it's cold water, if it's cold water, whatever, whatever.

[1169] And in warm, shallow water, a body can surface within two to three days because the gases, of course, will inflate the body and it will rise to the top.

[1170] but in cold water or deep water, bodies sometimes never surface because the weight of the water holds the body down, like fucking nightmare stuff.

[1171] If the body never surfaces and there isn't any suspicion of foul play, most authorities will only spend about a week or two searching for the body.

[1172] They don't have the resources.

[1173] And after that, it's up to the victim's family to try to find the body themselves.

[1174] Some are forced to pay thousands of dollars a day for commercial diving services and others try to find the bodies themselves and most often they're forced to give up due to lack of resources.

[1175] That's horrifying to think that you would be forced to go look for yourself.

[1176] Totally.

[1177] That's awful.

[1178] And then to give up and you can just look at this lake or whatever and know your loved ones in there and there's nothing you can do about it.

[1179] It's heartbreaking.

[1180] But when all hope of finding a missing body is lost, this is where Sandy and Gene Ralston step in.

[1181] They're considered some of the best underwater search and recovery specialists in North America.

[1182] So now I'm going to tell you about them.

[1183] Okay, great.

[1184] Did you see what I just did?

[1185] Oh, my God.

[1186] It's going to end too quickly.

[1187] I won't be able to.

[1188] Georgia just used George, my dog, as a desk.

[1189] She didn't react.

[1190] She doesn't care.

[1191] She's down.

[1192] She's sleeping on me. As long as you let me stay in here.

[1193] I laid my paper down her and wrote something.

[1194] I laid my paper down on her and wrote something.

[1195] And then I did the whole, like, what's the thing where you take a paper and you tap, tap, tap, tap to even up all the.

[1196] And you've been up the paper on your dog.

[1197] Is that an animal abuse?

[1198] Not at all.

[1199] It's animal use.

[1200] I keep telling them they need to get jobs.

[1201] They don't help.

[1202] She's being very useful.

[1203] Okay, we'll post a photo of that because it's just ridiculous.

[1204] Okay.

[1205] Around 1970, Jean and Sandy Ralston, and they're like, of course, now this adorable white -haired couple that are so cute together.

[1206] You love them.

[1207] So they meet on a two -month trip.

[1208] to Mexico that had been organized by the College of Idaho's biology program, which they're both part of.

[1209] And they start dating on the trip and marry two years later on top of a mountain in Idaho, which happens to be called Heaven's Gate.

[1210] So by 1979, Gene has a master's of science in biology and zoology.

[1211] Gene's the man, by the way.

[1212] I know it sometimes.

[1213] No, that's good to know.

[1214] And Sandy has a master of science in biochemistry.

[1215] So fucking smart as fuck people.

[1216] Smarties.

[1217] Smarty smarts.

[1218] The couple start their own environment.

[1219] consulting firm, which turns out they survey waterways for fish and evaluate the environmental impacts of proposed dam projects.

[1220] So smart science people.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] In 1983, Jean is asked by the Boise Sheriff to help find a woman who jumped off a bridge into the Boise River.

[1223] They are successful in finding the woman's body.

[1224] And Jean later tells Oregon Live, quote, the thank you we got from the family really brought home to us what it means to have someone missing and not be able to find them.

[1225] For the next 16 years, the couple volunteers for Idaho's search and rescue operation.

[1226] Wow.

[1227] In the spring of 1999, Gene hears about the search for a man who drowned after his rowboat capsized on the Wolf Creek Reservoir in Oregon.

[1228] The man's family had hired a search team who borrowed military equipment that was, quote, 100 % effective at finding drowning victims.

[1229] genes.

[1230] Gene wants to see the equipment, so he asks if he can tag along.

[1231] The 100 % effective equipment is a side scan sonar, which has been around since the early 1960s, and according to the guardian, the sonar equipment is towed behind the boat, close to the bottom of the water, and the sonar emits pulses of sound, which travel easily through the water reflecting back off solid objects.

[1232] Science.

[1233] So rocks, human bodies, sunken traitors, seizures, software, then translates those reflections into images displayed on a computer aboard the boat.

[1234] So it's basically like medical sonar.

[1235] So it's basically like getting an ultrasound, like when you have a baby or whatever.

[1236] So about this piece of equipment in the 70s, Jacques Cousteau used the technology to find shipwrecks.

[1237] And Karen tried to capture an image of the Loch Ness monster.

[1238] He did?

[1239] Try.

[1240] Jacques Cousteau?

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] What?

[1243] Okay.

[1244] This is separate.

[1245] This is separate about how elated I am that we had someone so legit.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] Believe in it.

[1248] On the Nessy team.

[1249] Look, that's why I concluded it in this.

[1250] Thank you.

[1251] That was a little gift for me. Thank you.

[1252] And also in 1985, the side scan sonar helped to locate the Titanic.

[1253] Remember in the fucking 80s it was located?

[1254] People don't like know that.

[1255] It's crazy, right?

[1256] I thought it was located right after the movie Titanic came out.

[1257] And it was all kind of.

[1258] bundled together as a promotional tool.

[1259] I think they used some kind of technology to actually go in it and, like, see it better?

[1260] Yes, there was a whole movie, like a documentary James Cameron made.

[1261] Or the same director.

[1262] James Cameron.

[1263] No, it's really good.

[1264] So the Titanic was about 370 miles southeast of Newfoundland, Canada, more than two miles below the surface on the Atlantic.

[1265] By the way, I had to do a lot of research because in the Guardian article, he uses like meters and shit.

[1266] Oh.

[1267] And I had to be like, well, we don't know how many fucking feet translates to you.

[1268] I don't.

[1269] We need the translation for America, the only country in the world that will not do the metric system.

[1270] That uses the antiquated as fuck.

[1271] Okay.

[1272] No wonder where we are today.

[1273] Truly deeply.

[1274] Can't change.

[1275] Gene is super impressed with this side scan sonar equipment, but he isn't impressed with the people operating it.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] Yeah.

[1278] So the team he went with to see how it works, he says that the first day he was able to see an image of the missing man on the floor of the lake.

[1279] But the team members he was with who were operating it didn't fucking spot it, even though he did.

[1280] On their fourth day, the team finds the body.

[1281] And it's the one he saw.

[1282] It's the one he saw.

[1283] And they charge the family $30 ,000.

[1284] No. So did they purposely not find the body until the fourth day?

[1285] because they rack up more money.

[1286] I don't know if that's what that.

[1287] That's dirty.

[1288] I mean, like, how do you sleep?

[1289] Yeah.

[1290] I mean, like, equipment costs a lot of money.

[1291] It's a really expensive endeavor.

[1292] So you want to get in, get out?

[1293] Right.

[1294] That's true.

[1295] That's not true, unfortunately.

[1296] Oh, man. The Ralston's, they already know that the Ralston's are totally aware that people who are desperate to find the body of a loved one that's drowned will fucking pay anything to do so.

[1297] Of course.

[1298] And so they are charged that.

[1299] And that's why.

[1300] when the couple buys $100 ,000 worth of their own side scan sonar equipment, and this is in the spring of 2000, they decide to work for free to not charge anything to these victims, families who are desperate to find their fucking loved ones.

[1301] Because they're just fully disgusted, like, we have to make a difference.

[1302] Yeah.

[1303] It's our, like they feel called to it, like it's their duty.

[1304] They do charge travel expenses, but they travel by motor home.

[1305] Like, they're the loveliest, most, like, down -to -earth, modest fucking people.

[1306] This is.

[1307] There absolutely should be a biopic about.

[1308] Absolutely.

[1309] That is amazing.

[1310] This Guardian article was great because I'm so glad it introduced me to them.

[1311] The couple's first search with their new equipment takes place in the fall of 2000.

[1312] They're searching for 24 -year -old Brandon Larson, who six weeks earlier, had drowned while swimming off his friend's boat in Bear Lake, Utah.

[1313] And from the article, it's basically this guy who.

[1314] was this prankster jokester is with all his friends.

[1315] So when he signals that he's drowning, they think he's joking.

[1316] I know.

[1317] It's fucking, yeah.

[1318] Within a few hours of searching for Brandon's body, the Ralston's find him about 145 feet below the surface.

[1319] So like immediately.

[1320] Within two weeks of finding Brandon, the couple starts receiving calls from families who had heard about them on the radio, like they did a radio interview.

[1321] The first was from a mother of an 18 -year -old girl whose body had been found already after she'd been abducted and murdered about a dozen years earlier.

[1322] But law enforcement was still trying to bring, like, the known killer to justice, but they didn't have enough evidence.

[1323] So the mother asks the Ralston's to help by finding the girl's car, which they believe to be in a lake in Wyoming.

[1324] Oh, wow.

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] I'm hoping that would provide enough evidence.

[1327] So Jean says, quote, I could hear a lot of pain in her voice.

[1328] It affected us a lot.

[1329] I couldn't wait to get out there.

[1330] In the end, unfortunately, they're unable to find the car, but it only strengthened their belief that they were needed and doing the right thing.

[1331] Like, they didn't even understand the detail with which they could be needed.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] Like, it's not just bodies.

[1334] It's important things like evidence.

[1335] The Ralston start taking on as many cases as they can while still operating their environmental consulting firm.

[1336] So, like, I still need to make money.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] During their first year, the Ralston's participate in 16, searches spanning from California to Maryland.

[1339] And by 2004, the couple's receiving so many calls that they have to stop promoting their business because, quote, it interferes with how quickly they can respond to search requests.

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] Gene later tells the Guardian, quote, I would have to tell a family that we couldn't come for two or three weeks, and that bothered me. Yeah.

[1342] So pure of heart.

[1343] Well, because every person calling them is in crisis and in an emergency.

[1344] Die or need.

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] Yeah.

[1347] In 2000.

[1348] In 2005, the Ralston's shut down their consulting business and conduct searches full -time.

[1349] The couple spends the majority of their time traveling around in a motor home, which toes their boat.

[1350] When they aren't on the road, they're living outside of Boise, Idaho.

[1351] Because they work for traveling expenses only the couple doesn't have a lot of money, but they're frugal with what they do have.

[1352] Jean tells the Guardian, quote, What better use for what money you have than to help somebody else out when everybody else has given up on helping them.

[1353] Yeah.

[1354] Their modest boat is named Kathy G, which they named after a young woman whose body the Raleston's found in a lake in Alaska in 2008.

[1355] And then the family of Kathy G donated money that the Raleston's used to buy a much -needed new motor.

[1356] So according to the Guardian, the Raleston's are, quote, modest, unassuming people, but they bring a relentlessness to their often monotonous work.

[1357] So when they're looking for a body, they do what they call mowing the lawn.

[1358] They tow their sonar equipment back and forth through the water.

[1359] Sandy pilots the boat and slow overlapping strips.

[1360] It takes a long fucking time.

[1361] It is like very slow, monotonous work.

[1362] The boat doesn't go faster than 2 .5 miles per hour, which is slower than walking.

[1363] So they're just like for weeks on the fucking water going back and forth looking for this little.

[1364] But think about it.

[1365] like their retired couple who's essentially driving around like their kind of quote unquote on vacation and that's what if if he was a fisherman they would be doing the exact same thing totally so they're like these people are unbelievable I know I can't it's so amazing they search for up to 10 hours a day and some searches last for weeks Jean tells the guardian quote after the fifth or six day of searching you get almost zombie like and then he also says quote searches consist of long periods of boredom interrupted by brief moments of terror, like to suddenly fucking come upon what you're looking for.

[1366] You're looking for it, but you actually don't want to find it.

[1367] Yeah.

[1368] Exactly.

[1369] Yeah.

[1370] So once they find the body, then a local dive team comes in and recovers the body.

[1371] And other time, the Ralston's help assist dive teams with their remote operated vehicle.

[1372] So it's said that they're not just good at what they do because of the equipment.

[1373] They also interview witnesses in order to try to pinpoint search areas.

[1374] So it's not just this vast lake they're looking.

[1375] They have an idea of where to look like they were the only people who thought to look at the GPS data of the houseboat that a man named Michael McGuckin jumped off of before he disappeared in June of 2019.

[1376] Ooh.

[1377] Because they checked the GPS, the Roustons were able to find his body over 300 feet down in Utah's Lake Powell.

[1378] Oh, I know.

[1379] So like, it's almost like they're teaching themselves.

[1380] how to get good at what they're doing.

[1381] Or they're just like, I guess maybe because they're not professionals, they're able to think outside the box and just, you know, have some more basic idea of how to find the body.

[1382] And maybe because they're not professionals, it does, it's not the thing they have to deal with day and they out.

[1383] They're not desensitized.

[1384] Each case becomes their, like, their, it's like personal to them.

[1385] Yeah, it's really personal.

[1386] And so they're like, how are we going to, how do we solve this?

[1387] And they're not in hurry, too, so they're able to kind of, like, slow down and consider these things.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] According to Jean, the quote, point of last scene is crucial to a search because a person will sink to the bottom of a lake within a radius equal to the depth of the water.

[1390] Oh, there's an actual formula to it.

[1391] There's like an equation, yeah.

[1392] Sometimes Jean and Sandy are able to pinpoint a search area so accurately that they lower their sonar equipment almost directly on top of the body.

[1393] Whoa.

[1394] I know.

[1395] One day in 2001 in Idaho's Hayden Lake, the couple lowered their sonar equipment down on the bodies of two men.

[1396] One drowned 19 months earlier, the other drowned the previous week.

[1397] So they were actually only looking for one of them.

[1398] And they found both of them.

[1399] So let me tell you a couple, I can't obviously cover all of the cases.

[1400] So let me tell you a couple of note that I found interesting.

[1401] Okay.

[1402] In March 2002, the Ralston's are tasked with finding their first homicide victims.

[1403] They're recruited by the FBI to find four people who had been kidnapped for ransom by a group thought to be connected to the Russian mafia.

[1404] The families of the victims paid the ransom, $1 .2 million, but the victims were still killed.

[1405] The victims are thought to be at the bottom of the new Malonis Reservoir, which is east of Yosemite National Park.

[1406] The Ralston's are a bit apprehensive, and they wonder if they're going to be targeted by, the Russian mafia if they try to help out on this case.

[1407] Oh, yeah.

[1408] So Gene reaches out to his cousin, who's a recently retired FBI agent, and his cousin tells him that the Russians, quote, aren't really into murdering people.

[1409] So you don't really have to worry about them doing anything in retaliation if you go ahead with this search.

[1410] They aren't into murdering people.

[1411] I guess it's not their style.

[1412] They keep them alive and do other stuff.

[1413] I guess.

[1414] They send them to jail.

[1415] The Russian mafia is very that's right they're basically like bounty hunters the russian mafia got you got you so they take the case knowing the four murder victims will look different on sonar than a drowning victim maybe because they're weighted down or like rolled in a fucking rug or something like that you know totally different than someone who just naturally drowns it still takes two weeks to find all four victims and as suspected they're at the bottom of the reservoir but because the reservoir is close to 300 feet deep in some areas.

[1416] It's not safe for divers to reach the bottom.

[1417] So the FBI has to fly.

[1418] Okay, so you know when you see on a TV show or like a crime drama, like the diver goes down, he finds, he comes up and he's like, found it or whatever.

[1419] That doesn't actually happen because divers can't go down that deep.

[1420] Oh, okay.

[1421] So what really happens is something like this where the FBI has to fly in a small unmanned submarine from their dive team headquarters.

[1422] And the submarine has a mechanical arm.

[1423] And the submarine has a that hooks the bodies and brings them up to within 30 feet of the surface, then the divers go down and recover the bodies.

[1424] And they had been weighted down with Jim weights.

[1425] And they're able to use the evidence that is found to tie up the bodies to find the kidnappers.

[1426] And actually, there's another murder by the same people with kidnapping and murder by the same group.

[1427] Then they find that they're not fucking Russian mafia at all.

[1428] and the group had kidnapped a total of five people, held them hostage, and then killed them regardless if the ransom was paid.

[1429] So these are bad fucking guys.

[1430] Yeah.

[1431] And they dumped their body in the new Malonis Reservoir.

[1432] In the end, six people are sentenced for their roles, two of them receiving the death penalty.

[1433] In January 2003, Gene helps police search for Lacey Peterson.

[1434] Oh, wow.

[1435] Yeah, in San Francisco.

[1436] And on the 18th, he finds what he thinks is a large plastic bag, but he's, It's anchored to the bottom of the bay, so he's not sure, and he's unable to recover the bag, and he dismisses it as not being her body based on some other evidence.

[1437] So then in March, he goes back to help the search again, and on the 13th, he finds an object that looks like a body, but unfortunately, the winds are super strong that day, and so divers can't go into recover the object.

[1438] When he returns the next day, he can't find that object, and based on where Lacey's body is found in May, he believes that this object was Lacey.

[1439] body.

[1440] The second one that he found?

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] Okay.

[1443] So he also flew to Aruba to help try to locate Natalie Holloway.

[1444] Oh, wow.

[1445] I know.

[1446] In 2004, the Ralston searched Priest Lake in Idaho for the body of 53 -year -old firefighter David Lewis.

[1447] It's believed he fell out of his boat and drowned in the lake.

[1448] And because no one saw him drown, they have to search a large area of the lake while searching.

[1449] They do find a body, but it's not David's.

[1450] The body's been in the lake for as long as a hundred years.

[1451] Whoa.

[1452] Yeah.

[1453] Isn't that creepy?

[1454] Do you ever, like, drive by bodies of water and lakes and shit and go?

[1455] Are there bodies in there?

[1456] Well, the only current.

[1457] I've never thought about the fact that obviously people have drowned throughout history.

[1458] And obviously they would just be sitting down there, especially in 100 years ago.

[1459] A hundred years ago.

[1460] And if it's super cold, they might be preserved.

[1461] I didn't know that.

[1462] Yeah, that's the other thing, too, is they don't fucking decay as fast.

[1463] Right.

[1464] Wow.

[1465] I mean, fucking Echo Park Lake had bodies in it one time when it was when it was emptied.

[1466] I bet.

[1467] How about the Phoebe Judge, this is criminal episode where they put a diver into the L. Librea Tarpitz.

[1468] That's right.

[1469] That's if you haven't heard the episode of criminal where they talk about, they talk to the LAPD dive team, which is like one guy who had to go down and search in the tar it's unbelievable it's such good episode when i was a kid my grandma that was my grandma's neighborhood and so she used to take me to liberia tar bits all the time which i wouldn't go fucking near even as a little kid i was like this is it's bizarre creepy this is well and also as a little kid you were looking at that woolly mammoth yes the bashed the bay the bully mammoth is drowning in the tar and the baby is upset yeah why didn't think children like we went there for fucking field trips yeah yeah i bet you I bet you that whole thing was built in 1977.

[1470] It was like the peak of we don't care about kids.

[1471] I think it was from the 60s.

[1472] I think it was old.

[1473] Stephen?

[1474] When was the LaBriotar Pits created?

[1475] Well, it was created.

[1476] I should know it was crazy.

[1477] We had to hit us at the exact same time.

[1478] 80 billion BC.

[1479] In the medieval times.

[1480] Stephen's working.

[1481] Please, Stephen's typing.

[1482] That's like that.

[1483] Oh, I should have made a friendly wager.

[1484] Because I would have won.

[1485] I know.

[1486] Oh.

[1487] I just love losing and winning money.

[1488] I know, apparently.

[1489] That's your favorite thing.

[1490] We got to do more friendly wagers on this podcast.

[1491] Yes, we do.

[1492] Especially because we're always both wrong.

[1493] Yeah, I know.

[1494] For real, we should also get an envelope with a, what some places call a kitty put in it where it's like we have $100 friendly wager money and then we build up from there.

[1495] And then at the end of the year, somebody wins it.

[1496] That's a great idea.

[1497] Okay.

[1498] I love whoever writes the best hometown.

[1499] of the year as voted on.

[1500] You could win $100 or more.

[1501] Or more.

[1502] How much we're wrong.

[1503] Up to $200.

[1504] That's right.

[1505] It's an incentive, they call it.

[1506] Yes, that's right.

[1507] My favorite murderer at gmail .com.

[1508] Okay.

[1509] Back to this horrible story.

[1510] So a hundred -year -old body.

[1511] To this day, it's the oldest body the Ralston's have recovered.

[1512] But sadly, they did not find David's body.

[1513] In June, which just has to be so disappointing.

[1514] And when do you say like, when do you?

[1515] you stop saying one more day one more day you know right i mean like what can you i wonder if that's something they preset with the family of like we will look for x amount of days and they have like they're probably totally backed up on their schedule so they have to get to the next ones yeah the thing that's really sad about all these stories is the families are always waiting at the shore of course like the families come every day they stand by the shore hopeful but also you know dreading what's if it's going to be found it's just so sad in june of two thousand Three of the Ralston's are asked to search, I'm going to call it Francois Lake in British Columbia, for the body of Sid Neville.

[1516] Sid is presumed dead after a storm struck while he was fishing on June 7th, and as the couple is searching, they find a body, again, someone else's body.

[1517] It's the body of 33 -year -old John Moet, and he'd been missing since July of 1984.

[1518] Whoa.

[1519] When his abandoned boat was found in the water, his body is found at almost 600 feet.

[1520] deep.

[1521] Wow.

[1522] So deep.

[1523] Yeah.

[1524] It's their deepest fine.

[1525] And they go back to the Francois Lake and continue looking for Sid Neville.

[1526] And they find the original body they were looking for also at around 600 feet deep.

[1527] Oh.

[1528] So in August 26th, the Ralsons are asked to search for this, a 19 year old man named Blake Becker.

[1529] Blake is an amateur stunt motorcycle rider.

[1530] Oh.

[1531] And on July 23rd, he had planned to perform a stunt where he rides his motorcycle, which he had designed and modified.

[1532] himself.

[1533] He's going to ride it across Montana's Canyon Ferry Reservoir.

[1534] So this fucking jump across the lake.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] Classic motorcycle stunt.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] He'd done it before.

[1539] It's a three -mile jump.

[1540] Only this time he's going to do it at night.

[1541] I know.

[1542] So unfortunately, halfway across the lake, the motor on his bike seizes up.

[1543] And he would have survived this.

[1544] But there's some complication where his, when he hits the water, he doesn't realize that he had like snows.

[1545] He had like snows.

[1546] a cord that was on his bike in his life preserver clasped.

[1547] So he couldn't get out of his, like get off the motorcycle.

[1548] He was basically attached to it.

[1549] And in his panic, he's not able to realize that.

[1550] And the weight of it sinks him.

[1551] The weight of the motorcycle sinks him to the bottom of the lake.

[1552] He's the only victim of the Ralston's ever recovered that was wearing a life jacket.

[1553] Ralston's don't just search for people.

[1554] In 2003, they helped NASA find remnants of the Columbia Space Shuttle after a broke up upon its return to Earth.

[1555] And in 2004, they helped the U .S. military find the wreckage of two F -18 fighters that collided over Oregon's Columbia River.

[1556] They also once helped for a person look for their prosthetic leg in Idaho's Lake Lowell, but they weren't able to find it.

[1557] Oh, those things are expensive.

[1558] That's why.

[1559] The guy was like, hey, can you help me?

[1560] Please help me. Today, the Ralston's are in their 70s, and they continue to dedicate their time and resources to helping find victims in the U .S. and Canada.

[1561] A woman named Mae Sid Lapase, whose aunt and uncle, the Ralston's helped find after they had drowned in the Sacramento River in 2013, said about them, quote, they don't save lives, but they save us from wondering and from the hurt from the pain.

[1562] They're like family to all these people.

[1563] And of course, all the families of the people they've found keep in touch with them.

[1564] They talk to them regularly.

[1565] They send Christmas cards.

[1566] I bet.

[1567] They're like indebted to them.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] Jean said, quote, I really don't like the word closure.

[1570] It's terribly overused because things are never closed.

[1571] The pain goes on forever.

[1572] We've tried to come up with a better word, resolution perhaps.

[1573] But people seem to think that there's closure.

[1574] They can move on with their lives and forget about all the stuff that happened in the past.

[1575] There's no forgetting.

[1576] It's always there.

[1577] In 2020, Gene told Oregon Live, quote, my body is telling me, yes, we need to slow down.

[1578] You know, they're in their 70s.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] We need to think about not putting ourselves through all of this, the mental stress and physical stress.

[1581] But my heart and mind says, you can't say no. And that is the story of Jean and Sandy Ralston, the retired couple who find drowning victims.

[1582] Amazing.

[1583] Wow.

[1584] I love that.

[1585] It's a mitzvah.

[1586] It's a mitzvah.

[1587] And it's like, there's, it's so nice to tell stories about the good people in the world, you know, because there's these, there's these people that are out there with, with, you know, very little credit and very little attention just getting this work done.

[1588] Yeah, and quietly.

[1589] Yeah.

[1590] And also there's, you know, because a lot of people have real issues around death and loss like that where they just won't go near other people who go through it.

[1591] And that's, you know, that's another aspect of it that's very.

[1592] really brave?

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] Is they're going into those situations of, you know, loss and tragedy and just trying to make a difference?

[1595] Totally.

[1596] Yeah, they're seeing trauma all of the time.

[1597] And they talk about it in the Guardian article about like, how do you compartmentalize and like Sandy's better at it than Jean?

[1598] You just see so much grief all the time.

[1599] Yeah.

[1600] How do you, how do you make it okay?

[1601] But it's like, well, you're doing something to help.

[1602] You're not, you know, even though it's still, the grief's still there.

[1603] The grief's there, but what you're doing is, because it isn't your grief, it's you, we're not so delicate that we can't handle other people's grief.

[1604] It's, it doesn't actually take that much, but you have to do it because the story you'll, and I'm of course right now thinking of my own experiences where when something horrible happens like in your family or with relatives or whatever, there are reactions to go like leave them alone.

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] Which is a very self -serving reaction because you just don't want to be in a difficult scenario with someone else.

[1607] It makes sure you uncomfortable and so you don't do it.

[1608] And of course it does because it makes everyone uncomfortable.

[1609] But that idea that there are those people who know and have learned or maybe because of their own losses or whatever, they know that going in and sitting next to the person is not hard.

[1610] And it's certainly not as hard as what that person's going through.

[1611] And to even do anything to lift that burden is beautiful beautiful work.

[1612] Especially for some retirees in a motorhome.

[1613] I know and they're so cute and white -haired and like adorable.

[1614] And they're just fucking getting it done.

[1615] That's right.

[1616] Let's get them a biopic.

[1617] Let's see.

[1618] Who will play them?

[1619] Well, of course Dame Judy Dench and then whoever can be on camera with her and not mind being next to Dame Judy Dench.

[1620] I'm thinking like that.

[1621] like a what's what's indiana jones's name oh that's harrison ford you don't know his name harrison for i know his name i just have no memory of names you know that by now okay sorry so harrison that was snobby that was shove that in your face truly was but you have a passion for now i've apologized twice what more do you want right um wait were you all call the call together when someone talked about their favorite band being named thrice.

[1622] Yes, it was it was Andrew.

[1623] It was Andrew.

[1624] I laughed so hard.

[1625] That band, like, I'm too old for that band.

[1626] The idea that some emo kids sat around and were like, we're fucking going to name ourselves thrice because it sounds old English, oldie English.

[1627] Yeah, it's spooky.

[1628] So funny.

[1629] They're hardcore.

[1630] Okay.

[1631] Well, okay, so before we go, we haven't talked about how essentially the state of Texas has tried repeal Roe versus Wade, they have passed unconstitutional legislation.

[1632] It's a horror show because it's not only making abortion illegal, but actually making, allowing people, citizens to report other citizens for any kind of abortion services.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] It is.

[1635] There's a bounty on women's heads.

[1636] There's a bounty on women's heads, and there's a bounty on any kind of abortion service worker said the doctors the people that work at clinics the janitor yeah they can it is it's truly insane and lots of things have to happen and change and we're all very upset about it we didn't want to start the show off this way right because enough of us live in this stress we all heard this story we all freaked out as as a woman who prioritizes choice you would of course naturally just be like, oh, it's end times.

[1637] This is absolutely insane.

[1638] This barbaric, it's fucking unconscionable and it's a war on women and we will not fucking stand by idly and let this happen.

[1639] No, and here's what's interesting is over a majority of Americans believe in choice for a women's right to choose.

[1640] This idea that this is somehow in any way a majority is absolutely incorrect.

[1641] It's like 80 % of Americans believe that it is a woman's right to choose what happens to her body.

[1642] And nobody intends to go backwards.

[1643] We're not going to do that.

[1644] So because of that, George and I are going to donate $10 ,000 to the fund Texas Choice Organization, which is very hands -on active organization in Texas that enable, that basically are going to protect a woman's right and choice to get an abortion for whatever reason she might need that.

[1645] And then also, so we have in the, my favorite murder store, we have the black and white, my favorite murder logo pin, and 100 % of the proceeds of that always go to a charity of our choice.

[1646] And so we're now going to change the pin charity to be the whole women's health organization.

[1647] So they are helping to fight this unconstitutional law in court.

[1648] So right now, all proceeds of the black and white logo, my favorite.

[1649] murder pin in our store are going to the whole women's health and obviously we're going to continue talking about this and um discussing it and getting into it because this is now you know one of the foremost issues for women that there is yeah i mean bounty hunters what the fuck is going on yeah yeah so stay strong like many other situations that we have as women have found ourselves in This is just another one that is an opportunity to get smart, to get strong, to come together, to join each other and to protect ourselves and each other's bodies, I don't know, like actual people.

[1650] Yeah, like autonomy.

[1651] Exactly.

[1652] Fucking patriarchy.

[1653] Thank you guys for listening and thank you for supporting us.

[1654] We are so, as always, honored to be your talking people.

[1655] And thank you for your patience as you listen.

[1656] to our new talking getting better as every week but it truly is a real wonderment to sit down and try to podcast again after two to three months of a break that's right so it's been very fun to discover to rediscover this with you yeah and we really love you and appreciate that some of the messages people sent to us were so touching truly and so kind like welcoming us back yeah you know we're always braced for like social media nastiness of course that's kind of this weird world I know I know and instead what we have are a bunch of very nice friends yeah support us in what we do and so we want you guys to know we also support you that's right in a world full of Louis batons you guys are our athletic slides and we appreciate you for that I appreciate you're not making us walk with our heels raised no is above our toes leave our heels alone it doesn't make sense.

[1657] That's right.

[1658] All right, everybody.

[1659] Stay sane.

[1660] Stay strong.

[1661] Stay sexy.

[1662] And don't get murdered.

[1663] Goodbye.

[1664] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1665] This has been an exactly right production.

[1666] Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1667] Associate producer Alejandra Keck.

[1668] Engineer and mixer.

[1669] Steven.

[1670] Ray Morris.

[1671] Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

[1672] Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at my favorite murder at gmail .com.

[1673] And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1674] And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan called, go to My Favorite Murder .com.

[1675] Rate review and subscribe.