E6 Mark's Diary - Betrayal, backstabbing and death

[0] I apologize.

[1] It's been two long weeks since I've uploaded this podcast, and I usually upload every Sunday, so I'm sorry for that, but we're back to business as usual.

[2] Here is the good news.

[3] As I told you, I wanted to invite other CEOs onto this podcast to share their deep, dark diaries and secrets with you, and in those two weeks, I've met with two different CEOs and delved into their diaries.

[4] One of them is a 25 -year -old CEO of one of the UK's fastest growing companies, company with a tremendous team.

[5] And the other is a CEO of a small agency business here in Manchester who went through an experience that no one in business or life would wish on their worst enemy.

[6] And in today's chapter, we delve into his diary.

[7] He emailed me and he wanted to come on this podcast to share his experience, which involves backstabbing and betrayal.

[8] And through the agency grapevine and people I knew, I already knew a little bit about his story.

[9] And from the little I knew, it was horrific.

[10] It involves the majority of his team backstabbing him, serious betrayal, mental health issues, total desperation and a business that ends up having to fold because of it.

[11] There is so much to learn from the story and it's incredibly interesting.

[12] And just when you think things can't get any worse, this young man gets caught up in a terrorist attack in London, which changes the perception of his life and perspective of his life forever.

[13] The man in question is called Mark Stringer, and he is the CEO of Ahoy, which is a Manchester -based web and graphic design agency.

[14] Mark is an avid listener of this podcast, so he knows the score already.

[15] This is not a PR interview, and he agreed to share the full details with total honesty.

[16] I also told Mark that if he wasn't raw, honest and open, I would not share it with the world.

[17] Mark agreed, and that's exactly what he did.

[18] So without further ado, let's open Mark's diary.

[19] This is Chapter 6.

[20] I'm Steve Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO.

[21] I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[22] Okay, so Mark, thank you for joining me. I really, really appreciate it.

[23] You are our first ever guest on this particular podcast, and I wasn't sure at first if it made sense for the format of this, it being a diary and all, to have a guest on.

[24] But considering your story and considering our, previous conversations over the last couple of months.

[25] I knew that you also shared a lot of the hardships and the pains and the challenges and the unpredictable events that I shared as a CEO.

[26] And we had a conversation, I'm not sure if you'll remember, but in my office a couple of months ago where we talked about some of the real hard moments that only people that run service businesses where there's such unpredictability will really be able to understand.

[27] And so I know You'd listen to this podcast.

[28] And when you got in touch, at first I read the email and I thought, no, I don't really, not really going to do guests, but I closed the email and then reopened it.

[29] And because I remembered our conversations.

[30] Yeah.

[31] And then I went over to my team and said, listen, I think this would be a great first guest on the podcast.

[32] So thank you for coming on.

[33] I appreciate him.

[34] I can't thank you enough.

[35] Yeah, I've been binge listening to the podcasts and it was just the honesty and the intimacy of what you were doing.

[36] and it was interesting to see just somebody so successful being so honest about what was actually going on.

[37] So, yeah, I'd been binge listening.

[38] And then when you mentioned that you'd wanted to have someone on and, you know, they couldn't come on, I thought, right, well, I'm happy to be honest.

[39] I can sort of take your lead and I can do that.

[40] So, yeah, and as I say, these two major things happened to me this year.

[41] which are now part of my story.

[42] So I thought it would be a really good chance to come and share it.

[43] Amazing.

[44] So the thing with this podcast, as you'll know, because we had a little bit of a chat before, is it's all about that honesty.

[45] And it's not about PR or all the other interviews you've probably ever done in your life where there was sort of an agenda there, right?

[46] Same for me. It's winning business.

[47] It's talking about our business or selling ourselves.

[48] And this has always acted as the opposite of that.

[49] This is the antithesis of brand building.

[50] This is honesty.

[51] And if this interview doesn't get to that place, then it will almost never be heard because it won't fit the format of what this is.

[52] It's not worth it.

[53] Yeah, that's the single most important thing today.

[54] Just as bad, we're not in your cupboard, are we, at your house on this one.

[55] Yeah, so this is the first time I've not shot it at home after 2am in my little washing cupboard under the stairs I'm at the office in one of our in one of our studios that's being renovated it is although quite like the idea of just me and you sat in our pajamas just scratching our eyes as tough talking putting the world to write about how tough it is running a business that would have been interesting but also very suspicious it's 10 p .m it's Wednesday I believe and without further ado I'll get into it so I guess the first what I said you is you know there's three types of listener that I've uncovered by doing this podcast.

[56] There's somebody who's potentially thinking about getting into business at some point.

[57] Maybe they have no interest, but they currently don't run a business.

[58] The second person is somebody that's just starting out and that's encountering those initial hurdles and obstacles and trying to gain some sort of inspirational motivation about how you maybe get through that and get to the point, which is where the third group of people are at, where they're running a business, they've got teams, and they're encouraging.

[59] encountering those kinds of challenge.

[60] So where I wanted to start is before.

[61] So what was your story before you started your business?

[62] What were you doing?

[63] Have you always been an entrepreneur?

[64] Yeah, I think, I suppose I got into my business because of a talent.

[65] So I was really good at drawing.

[66] And I've been given this idea at school, putting for my art GCSE a year earlier because it was good.

[67] and then they would sort of decide what they was going to do with me in the final year and they said what about graphic design and I was like, what's that?

[68] I don't know what that is and I started to learn what it was and I just fell totally in love with it so straight after school did an ND, HND degree and then yeah I went to work for a few different agencies and I started to pick up how they were run and started to learn how to manage people that type of thing went and run another agency which I set up with another chap called Dan Clark lovely guy but after a few years we could start to see that I was becoming really ambitious and he just wanted to work a certain way and he went away on holiday and when he come back said look you know I really want to push on I want to advertise I want to take on staff you know I want to work long hours and it was just a really mismatched there so we had a chat and um yeah i just i left him with that business all the SEO we'd done everything and put into the business i left him with that right came away he carried running that and then i went working from home right and i was just working downstairs uh from my cellar and uh just started to slowly build up clients i had clients knocking on the door you know coming coming around, trying to straighten up the house and things like that.

[69] And yeah, just started to build it from there.

[70] And so what point did your business transition from being a business in your basement to taking on staff and having an office and those kinds of things?

[71] I think the big move was moving into office space.

[72] So we moved into a place in Heaton Chapel in Stockport.

[73] And we had moved in with another.

[74] developer, Chap call Kieran, and we started to become really busy.

[75] He'd already been doing a development work for me. I was doing all the design.

[76] And it just moted on.

[77] We took on a designer, we took on another developer.

[78] We got to the point where I was thinking, shit, I'm doing a lot of project management.

[79] I don't want to be doing that.

[80] So we took on a project manager.

[81] And we just slowly built the team from there and whenever there was a need, we took it on.

[82] And as we got busier, we just grew it.

[83] And I always had it at the back of my mind that I wanted to have an agency that I could be proud of.

[84] You know, the agencies that I read about in the magazines.

[85] And I had that image in my head that I wanted to develop something that was not only something that was money -making, but something that I could be proud of.

[86] It had some kind of kudos.

[87] And it was trying to go for a certain aesthetic with what we were doing with the design, that type of thing.

[88] So he always had that in my mind.

[89] And it just grew and grew.

[90] from there And so how did you go What's the feeling of going from Obviously I have my own answer in this But what was the difference between being a freelancer in your basement And employing people Because I think the big one for us Was when we went from A quarter of a million turnover to half million turnover And that was a big one I remember sitting down with the accountants And they were saying, you know, what you've done is pretty impressive.

[91] And at that point, you start to think there's something of value here.

[92] This is not just me trying to develop something that's feeding the need in me to have a certain agency.

[93] There's all of a sudden a commercial drive that this has value now.

[94] I can build something that will have worth further down.

[95] on the line and you start to think then about longer term goals not just the next projects you start to think about the type of people you bring into the business are they going to be good for the next you know four or five years you start to think on in terms of longer term goals and that was the real that was the real switch moment for me um you have the you have the whole thing and I'm sure you've been through this in terms of like you have a client win and all of a sudden it's a bigger accolade and then you have that other one and it spins on from and then all of a sudden you think this is it we're off the ground you have those few bumps of the plane and all of suddenly like right we're on it and then then all the little things crop up little problems talk to me about these problems and also at this point were you did you have a wife and kids or yeah so did you start when you had a wife and kids yeah well it was interesting I was wondering whether he was going to mention this because obviously you've been speaking in your podcast about relationships which was quite touching really I thought that was overly honest of you I thought it was really interesting and you saying about you was unsure whether you wanted to be in a relationship or not and how you felt after it and I've been in a relationship since I was 16 so I met my wife Katie when she was 15 we met at school and having that type of relationship from a young age is quite, quite tough when we have broke off usually because i think we broke off once in i was about 23 24 right got that kind of court life crisis sure yeah kind of when i was thinking you know yeah i've been with this same person for that amount of time you know like the grass is greener maybe yeah or just not not knowing that i'm going to experience ever being single or meeting other people or so we had a bit of a break go back together um and then uh yeah so I'd had my first child at 25 mark and then we had mea about 18 months later it was a conscious decision to try and keep that close together so like if you're in nappies mode like kind of get out of the way so yeah we've got we've got two kids so when I started that when when I started the business we we had yeah we had little kids running about and when you're when you're operating as a freelancer it's fairly riskless let's say fairly risk -free yeah when you start employing people um the bigger it gets the harder it falls i think is the old adage and um you have things coming around like you know pay day and you have greater responsibility you have to now make money because you know you have to pay your staff bills even if your clients don't pay you and things just get a little bit more you know nervous i guess and higher pressure.

[96] Massively, I think you've understood that.

[97] I think, yeah.

[98] Yes, so I'm just talking about at the start, though.

[99] At the start, I know it gets to an even more serious.

[100] So typically, it's, if you're a freelancer, you've got, there's a smaller mouth to feed in terms of, you know, you've got operations, sales and finance.

[101] And then you've got, as your business gets busy, this bit bigger is the whole culture, culture side of it.

[102] And when you're, smaller you can focus very much on operations and kind of get through your projects and as you build a little team that that mouth to feed is not as big so the stress but it's not the stress that we know is as the team gets bigger and you have to really learn to handle that stress at the very start was yeah was what was the what were the hardest things of go of of going from just yourself to, say, a team of five, what were the hardest challenges of getting from that point to that point?

[103] Or was that fairly straightforward for you?

[104] I think that sort of growth bit is quite easy.

[105] Five to ten.

[106] Yeah, I think from five to ten, then all of a sudden you're starting to get into waters where you know you've got a target that you've got to hit every month.

[107] Yeah, so...

[108] That's the moment.

[109] where it's come up to payday and you're thinking where we could get this money from you're feeling physically sick and did you feel that way massively?

[110] Massively talk to me about the detail of those moments and specific examples of where you knew it was payday you knew that as things are you didn't have enough money in the bank account to...

[111] Well I'll tell you what we did one day we had a run into the wages and it was like last minute, whether we'd get paid, whether we'd get that money in the bank, we got paid, got the money in the bank, and we paid everyone.

[112] And typically, you know, a pay day, sometimes you have a few grumbulls and we thought it was going to get paid in the morning, and they'd get paid in the afternoon.

[113] And they don't realize what you're going through.

[114] And we'd paid that money out.

[115] We'd not been taking money out ourselves.

[116] And I went to the shop to go and get something to eat for myself, and I had no money in the bank.

[117] So I just paid all the wages.

[118] and I didn't have any change I made anything and I went to go to the shop to get something to eat and I couldn't buy any lunch Did anybody realise do any of your team realise So how many people did you have at that point?

[119] We probably We probably had about 12 at that point So you've just paid 12 people and then you realise that you have zero like zero you're not enough for lunch yourself Does anybody in your team realise that No And how do you how would you go home like how does it feel to like go home the night before knowing that in the morning people were expecting to be paid and you didn't know how that was going to happen what's that feeling like I can give it from my own experiences we've been you know we've been there at the very start but like I want to hear this is why I'm asking the question because you have the sleepless nights where you just can't get to sleep it's people don't really realize that it is always there.

[120] You, you just zone out when you're talking to family members because you're, you're thinking about, you know, next Tuesday, you know, you should be relaxing over the weekend and spending time with family.

[121] And you're thinking about Tuesday coming up, you know, what am I going to do on the Monday?

[122] Is there anything I can do Sunday night?

[123] You're thinking what you can do in order to make sure that that money comes in.

[124] You know, that client promised to pay me. You start to build up.

[125] You just, you just, you're just, you're I think you've mentioned that you just zone out you're not you're not typically good company then you've got the nights running up to it where you're in bed and you can't sleep you're staring at the ceiling thinking how am I going to make sure that this money's paid is looking a bit iffy year and did you ever have to let people you really cared about in the business go because of that because you realise that you know you need to scale back a little bit we've had periods in the business where I've held out too long so stupidly not wanting to let people go at Christmas time and held out and personally suffered because of that not making a quick enough decision in terms of saying in the early days I think one of the pinch points in terms of running the business is that you make loads of mistakes some are more costly than others and in the early days we have pretty poor financial control you know now we've got you know and a lot of people who are starting out now we'll have zero it's all live data it comes in from your bank feed and it's all very very current you're getting your profit and lost within a week of your month end but then we were sitting down and having meetings with our accountant every three months right it was really slow getting that information even slower than that at the start so you've not got that really relevant information in terms of how you're doing in the business and you're making decisions totally blind and we've got to a point where we've grown the business to a certain size and really looking at where we were in the sales we shouldn't have been we were sort of hiring ahead of the curve sure yeah and we did exactly the same thing and for the first year we made a loss because we we scaled very very fast and invested all our capital but we also really had no idea how much money we were really making yeah i think that's the thing is you see okay client's going to pay me 20 grand or whatever okay that means i get 20 grand when you do the math yeah you know you're spending 13 you're spending three months executing the work whatever which in the what including the wages the lights the food the travel you're actually spending like 14 grand let's say to complete the work because it's taking you three months you've also got tax VAT all these other things and you and then you're like fuck i actually made nothing because it also took me one month to win the business and go to London and pick so like fuck we actually only made a hundred quid there gross profit and and it's all very deceptive the lights are off as I used to refer to it you know you're making decisions in the dark and until and it's a single most I said I think I said it on the podcast a single most important thing for me and reflection and for all business owners that are thinking of hiring people and making adding responsibility to their plate is don't like make sure you've got the number you understand the numbers or you have or even that you have someone like an accountant, a CFO that can educate you so you as an entrepreneur can just focus on the stuff you're good at?

[126] Because I'm shit with numbers like.

[127] Yeah, I'm dyslexic, so I struggle a lot with things like that.

[128] I know what I'm doing, obviously, but I can sometimes struggle to take in that information.

[129] It's like podcasts are taking while I absorb that information.

[130] Sometimes when I'm reading stuff, I have to read things time and time again.

[131] It's really frustrating.

[132] But another piece of advice I'd say to, you know, young people managing businesses in the early days is if the profit and loss, if it doesn't make sense to you in how the, in terms of how the accounts are shown to you, question it, ask for it to be done in a different way.

[133] You know, in terms of how our cost of sales are done in our profit and loss, I always question the accountant and I want it done one way and he wants it done the other.

[134] So always feel that you're happy to question it.

[135] There's no orthodox way of doing it.

[136] There's little hints and tips, but actually challenge it and go through it.

[137] And as your business gets bigger, there's more transactions, you've got to be even more on it in terms of making sure, you know, what's this thing we're paying for every month?

[138] Why have we got that?

[139] Let's get it out of there.

[140] That can be quite tough to be, especially if things are going well and your turnover is high.

[141] you can be less scrupulous in terms of going through.

[142] Yeah, about the pennies.

[143] I said that to someone the other day.

[144] We have a consultant we hired and we only pay him a nominal fee compared to the revenues we generate.

[145] And his rebuttal to me when I cancelled his contract was, I know you're doing, say, seven figures a month, whatever.

[146] This is nothing compared to the revenues you're making.

[147] Why are you counselling this contract?

[148] And I said in a previous email to him when I cancelled his contract that, you know, we are a young business.

[149] We have 160 people, et cetera.

[150] And he rebuttled me on the 160 people.

[151] And my point to him was now that we have a greater headcount, in fact, I have more responsibility.

[152] This whole thing can fall 10 times harder.

[153] So I should be more concerned about every single penny than I was when there was only five because my responsibility is now greater than ever.

[154] So it was a great point that he mentioned my head count because it sounds.

[155] actually the reason why I'm now more, I care more about the pennies.

[156] Yeah.

[157] Going back to one of your points a second ago on relationships, how has those tough times and those hard nights, those sleepless nights, the stress of it all, how has that undoubtedly impacted your relationships with your partner?

[158] Because you've got to take it home with you.

[159] As you said, I've spoken to a few entrepreneurs now and there's a consistent theme of them being in the room but being a million miles away.

[160] yeah definitely and how is that for her to understand and you know i'd tell you what's changed a lot is that katie works in the business now she's the she's the finance director okay before she worked in the business she didn't understand where it's coming from as much as i sat down and explained even you know over a glass of wine or you know you know if you're away camping you talk a little bit more not just arguments yeah yeah yeah when you really talk because there are moments when you're really talking at these moments when you just kind of go through, grow through emotions a little bit as our relationships do.

[161] When you're really talking, you still can't get across what it's like and there's been moments now where she's running the finance and the business and it's particularly tough and it's a really, really tough job, especially when she's had no training in it and she's kind of learnt all the job.

[162] But she now really understands where I'm coming from.

[163] And I get asked a lot, you know, working with your wife, seeing every day And my response is, you know, if you look to times of war, you know, talk to, you know, family members and they couldn't see the loved ones for a long amount of time, I think it's great to be able to spend that amount of time together.

[164] And if you don't get on, you probably shouldn't be together.

[165] I think it helps that I do a very different role, so I'm very sales orientated and opt -orientated, whereas Kate's, you know, credit control and finance and that side of things.

[166] So it helps that there's a bit of difference there.

[167] And also Kate really still wants to do the mum thing So she'll go and pick the kids up So Kate will typically start in the morning And then finish around sort of half two, three And go and pick the kids up And then work from home And then work from there So you said Before she was involved in the business She didn't really understand what it was like So just to loop back then To try and get more of a sort of like Fully appreciative answer to that question What is it like?

[168] If you had to to summarise in a couple of sentences, what it's like being a CEO of a company with staff and teams and uncertainty and all these things.

[169] What is it like?

[170] For someone that's listening, right?

[171] That's only ever watched the social network movie and seen Dragon's Den and has this sort of like very naive perception of what being a CEO and entrepreneurs like and thinks it's all glitz glam and jet skis.

[172] What is it like?

[173] It's what the public sees, so they can see them to stand.

[174] you've got a dream, you've got a talent, you want to create something, you're moving forward to to get something that you want to attain.

[175] And that's all the fluffy stuff, that's the good stuff, it's the powering forward to do it.

[176] The dark side is that there's a long, drawn out, a kind of pumping out rejection of like cortisol, that's just constantly running through your body.

[177] and you slowly learn to manage it and you have moments certainly at the start of the business where you're having panic attacks you know you're driving the car and just freak out you free your hands are stuck around the wheel you've you know we're kind of moving on to kind of mental health a little bit here but you it causes you to suffer in certain ways so you know panic attacks I didn't know what a panic attack was you don't know what it is when you first experienced it um And you don't tell the one about it.

[178] At the start, you just kind of absorb it.

[179] And then you'll then have certain circumstances.

[180] My dad suffered with panic attacks.

[181] And the first time he had a panic attack was when he was in the bath.

[182] So every time he gets in the bath, it comes back.

[183] So I think that people, I was often, I went to an event and someone compared it to beauty and barbed wire.

[184] so you've got all that kind of glamorous glitzy stuff and then you've got the things that you have to be resilient to underneath so you have to constantly take the knocks and people don't often talk about the knocks whether it's a legal battle you're having with a client whether it's an issue you're having with a staff member whether you are really beating yourself up over something you've lost or a decision you've made or whatever it is.

[185] There's great uncertainty, right?

[186] And I mean uncertainty long term, but I also mean uncertainty when you wake up in the morning.

[187] One of the things that I've, you know, we, I learned was that, you know, I can plan my day as much as I want.

[188] Yeah.

[189] I can plan my week as much as I want.

[190] Yeah.

[191] I can plan the month as much as I want.

[192] But I'm going to wake up one day this week and there's going to be some unexpected message, which I'll get, and it'll be, and it'll start with just so you know.

[193] And it'll be from one of the team telling me something that's happened.

[194] or it'll be an email saying, you know...

[195] And do you have that thing where you can...

[196] Your brain, you skin, read it.

[197] It's...

[198] You don't read it almost.

[199] Your brain just picks up a pattern or something.

[200] And you know it's a bad email.

[201] Like, just from that first...

[202] So you get a preview.

[203] Yeah.

[204] I get a preview pop up, whether it's a notification, or if it's WhatsApp, you can see the start of the sentence or the subject to the email.

[205] And I'll know.

[206] Because, you know, you've done this for three years, you probably received millions of messages it's in some form and I'll know how the bad ones start and I know the little notification preview and so I used to get a point where I'd pop up and I'd get that feeling in my chest of like it's almost like this nervous, anxiousness at the minute I see that notification because I'm like oh no is that another one of those once or one that's happened or...

[207] And I don't know if you have this thing is where I'm at now is that so the nerves kick in and you get really head up and then this other thing kicks in which I don't know whether that's the resilience right that's the resilience where you think um i've got this yeah i've got this and you kind of put yourself back down and is is that something that entrepreneurs and bosses have and they've got that element and that's what they're unable to sort of handle it or i don't know no that's definitely in my opinion that's definitely a learned thing because the first time those things happen there's not that thing that kicks in and necessarily and in such a composed where it's almost like, you know, I've said, I don't know if I said this on the podcast, but being an entrepreneur has made me much, much harder, but also so much more compassionate.

[208] It's made me, like, be able to be a really nice person, but also it's turned me into this kind of like cold, resilient rock of a hard piece of coal, and I'm able to move to both places.

[209] So I can be lovely, lovely, lovely when talking to new members of the teams, you know, like get on my, you know, scooted down at their desk and just talk to them about whatever, trying to be really friendly.

[210] and welcoming and then when I get those messages I'm able to default to my place of cold hard rock that's been through a lot of shit and knows that this is another piece of shit to deal with and is that old cliche of you know it's more you know it's bad news just put the next step forward and have your brain open to the next piece of good news that's going to come you've got to push yourself into that hindsight becomes this wonderful this wonderful thing you mustn't forget where in a moment I can can remember the first time I thought I was, myself and the business were fucked.

[211] I can remember that very clearly.

[212] I can remember how I felt and then I can also remember getting past it because I'm here.

[213] And then I can remember the second time I thought I was fucked and the business was over and we were done.

[214] And I can remember, you know, that feeling and then I remember getting past it.

[215] Yeah.

[216] And you do that five times and there's really no news you can break to me now where you're going to be able to convince me that any, every, there's anything to worry about.

[217] I've been, you know, we've been through it all.

[218] I remember people saying to me, oh, one point, you know, because our business started on Twitter, when Twitter, dies, your business dies.

[219] Twitter virtually died amongst my generation in terms of engagement, we're fine.

[220] People said things to me about this channel, and we suppose that too.

[221] So when they say it to me now, I know it's not the case, because I know that we get through those tough times with a certain self -belief, resilience, and looking forward, not dwelling.

[222] And I said to one of my members of my team about a year ago, I said there's two different types of people.

[223] There's one type of person where they're in a room and it's on fire, and they'll turn to you and say, the room is on fire, right?

[224] And they'll just keep saying, the room is on fire.

[225] They'll keep repeating it.

[226] And then there's the resilient sort of entrepreneur type that will see the rooms on fire, not tell the other person, not mention the fact that there's a fire, and just focus solely on how we get out of this fucking room.

[227] And that's the difference.

[228] That's how I identify a leader from someone who isn't cut out to be a leader.

[229] And I used to say to somebody that used to work for me, you need to stop mentioning the fire.

[230] and you used to stop focusing on the fire and so he kept coming back to me every month and saying Steve I'm not looking at the fire I'm not focusing on how we get out so it's now a reference point but for all these things you know all the hardships all the pain and uncertainty and the anxiety and the panic attacks why then why be an entrepreneur what's it because it doesn't sound from what you said like it's worth it why not live a comfortable super comfortable life which is you know give that problem the anxiety the stress to another guy or girl.

[231] Yeah.

[232] Why be the entrepreneur?

[233] Oh, God, there's tough that.

[234] Wouldn't like...

[235] Wouldn't be easier?

[236] Yeah, and you must have asked yourself that question.

[237] I've asked myself that question a few times, and you have those moments when you're down and you think this would be easier if I just went and got a great director role somewhere or, you know, whatever it was.

[238] But I think it's...

[239] I think it's creating something.

[240] it's it just feels like more of a it's a more rounded challenge so if I go and be the best creative director I can be or the best designer that I can be or whatever that is versus doing it all off my own back and creating something and and having something some kind of legacy whether my kids come in and manage the business or whether we sell it and we do amazingly well or whatever happens with the business, it's, it just feels like a more visceral project.

[241] Maybe it's because of the risk.

[242] Maybe that's the whole entrepreneur thing.

[243] Do you think you're a bit addicted to it?

[244] Addicted.

[245] Do you think you're a little bit addicted to the, the, the fluctuation, how much it makes you feel?

[246] I'm the same as you and I think a lot of people listen to that, that I seem to kick into an extra gear when my back's to the wall.

[247] I seem to perform better when I'm under a certain amount of stress.

[248] Am I addicted to it?

[249] I feel like...

[250] I personally, maybe.

[251] It's like I hate pitch.

[252] I absolutely hate pitching.

[253] I absolutely hate pitching.

[254] But I'll speak to another agency on about this and you get addicted to the pitch in and winning.

[255] But from a...

[256] It just doesn't make any business sense at all.

[257] If you can run your agency without pitching, you would be so much more profitable.

[258] But it's part of part of agency life and growing and...

[259] winning your customers maybe yeah if I'm speaking elsely maybe I'm a little bit addicted to to the because I think I'm a little bit addicted to the feet almost I feel I feel like it's a developed addiction where the days that I feel most fulfilled are the days that at the end of the day at the end of a tough day when I've when things have been resolved and I've gone home and got into bed and I'm just relaxing I feel like I'm the most addicted to the relaxation after to solving some tough problems in a way.

[260] You know, the days where everything goes swimmingly and I get in bed are quite boring to me now.

[261] Yeah.

[262] And you're saying, you're right, it's kind of perverse.

[263] What I wanted to get to then is so you're now running this business.

[264] There's 10 people there.

[265] The tough times, you know, being, you know, feeling sick, physically sick.

[266] And when I think when I, when people hear you say that, they think, okay, that's expression, but it's actually feeling genuinely.

[267] Genuinely, the blood has gone from your face.

[268] you are physically stopping yourself from being sick in the toilet.

[269] That is how tough things get.

[270] How many times did that happen?

[271] It's definitely happened.

[272] No, it's happened on three occasions.

[273] Two of those occasions were when it was close to the bone in terms of payday.

[274] And when the business had failed once.

[275] I mean, you know, I started the business in 2008.

[276] It was the start of a recession.

[277] It wasn't a good time to be starting a business, really.

[278] So, yeah, one time was when we, when we, I thought, oh, shit, this is it.

[279] We're not going to be able to pay wages.

[280] And the other time was when the business had gone down the pan a little bit and they had to let some people go.

[281] And the other time was when I read through some information on something, and it happened in the business very recently when some staff had left, and it was all very underhand.

[282] And I remember reading through some messages that weren't meant for me, and it was all behind my back.

[283] And I went, a person who was with me said, you are right, you are totally white, the blood had just totally drained from base.

[284] And I went to the toilet and I was sick.

[285] I wasn't nearly sick.

[286] I was actually sick.

[287] So I want to get into those two significant life events that you have, which you referenced at the start of this podcast.

[288] Yeah.

[289] The first one from what I understand is the terrorist attack.

[290] That was the second one.

[291] It was the more frightening one.

[292] And so that one came after?

[293] That was after, yeah.

[294] Okay.

[295] So touching then on that thing you touched on there about being sick, because you discovered messages, tell me that story.

[296] From what I understand, a significant proportion of your team and you've seen a leadership team left abruptly and out of the blue and kind of left you in the lurch unannounced and took some of your key contacts, let's say, with them.

[297] What happened was at the end of March, we'd just paid wages, we'd just paid bonuses, things were going well in the business.

[298] We had just...

[299] It was a Friday.

[300] Just finished the game of Poole.

[301] We talked with two of the other managers.

[302] And one of them said the other managers come in.

[303] Just wants to have a quick chat with you.

[304] So I said, okay, no problem.

[305] I've got friends around for tea tonight.

[306] So I can hang on, but I can't wait too long.

[307] We went into the meeting room.

[308] The other two managers walked in behind the other one and said, we actually all want to talk to you.

[309] One of those people that had worked, I'd known for 15 years worked for me for five.

[310] The other two worked for me around the same time and they sat down and said we're leaving we're taking three staff and we're setting up a competing agency and I just had this outer body experience where I was thinking this is actually happening to me now what they've just said is really this is really, really happening, it's really happening now.

[311] This is going to, could destroy me, could totally change your life.

[312] Just, it went from this is a joke to this is really happening.

[313] And I remember just being stuck there and frozen and then all of a sudden thinking, right, I need to start asking some relevant questions there.

[314] I need to try and work out what it is.

[315] what questions can I ask to get some kind of advantage out of it and in that moment how do you feel how do you react because I imagine I imagine you felt an array of things right yeah I mean shock fear and then anger so they've got to a point where they turn and said you know I'd ask some questions do clients now have you spoke to the staff about this?

[316] No, we know our legal obligations.

[317] So I'm thinking, oh, right, I spoke to a solicitor already.

[318] They're really head of the game on this than me. And they said, you know, we want this to be amicable.

[319] And I was like, amicable.

[320] What do you mean amicable?

[321] How can this be amicable?

[322] You're giving me no notice.

[323] You're taking three of my staff.

[324] You're sent up a competing agency.

[325] and I remember feeling my voice getting louder and louder and louder and I had this thing where I thought I need to get out of the room because if I'm going to do something stupid I started to think they could be recording this you know this I am this they've all of a sudden had time to think about it kind of dawned me they've had time to think about this and I'm just getting told this now so your brain's trying to catch up and think, right, just get out of the room, pull yourself together and then look at what you're going to do.

[326] So I went out of the room, I was pace up and down, just fuming, you know, thinking, you know, what do I do?

[327] What's my next move?

[328] So I just, I went back in, I said, look, I can't speak to you now.

[329] I'm going to totally lose it.

[330] I'm worried about what I'm going to do.

[331] I'm fuming.

[332] I spoke to Jason, who's my cousin who works for us as well.

[333] He's an account manager I told him what had happened because I'd slammed the door when I walked out and he was just in shock he's like what?

[334] So I said yeah I said this has happened and said make sure you get the keys and the laptops I'm just going to go on pull myself together and then I'll speak to you I went home I was just to you know again being fully honest I'd love to say I wasn't but I was really upset I was in tears I spoke to to Katie about it and she just couldn't it just didn't compute how what was her reaction just shock just like I'd gone home and told her that you know I'd got something that was you know some kind of dizzy he's just total shock it was she just didn't know she could just she's like no why no they wouldn't you know why would they do that they wouldn't do that to you and you've known one of them for 15 years yeah I've known one for 15 years um Has that made you not trust people in the same way?

[335] I think it's like, I suppose it's like being hurt in love.

[336] I mean, what you do just all of a sudden have a cold heart and never trust anybody again.

[337] I think I'm a bit more cautious about how much I tell people about the business and how much maybe I give.

[338] But in terms of trusting people and throwing myself into it, I've got to do that.

[339] I mean, you've, running an agency, it's a person -led business.

[340] You've got to have really close relationships with people.

[341] And I know they all say, you shouldn't have friends in business and all the rest of it.

[342] But you spend a lot of time together, especially in agency life, when you're doing more hours than you should be doing.

[343] And, you know, I thought there was, and maybe I've read this wrong, I thought there was love there.

[344] I thought it was a good friendship.

[345] We'd gone to events together, you know, gone to festivals and spent a lot of time together at work and things like that.

[346] Always done everything I possibly could, whether it was people being paid early or helping stuff out in the personal life or one of them got injured and picked him up every single day while they had a bad leg from, you know, quite far out.

[347] so you just try and do everything you can there was you know profit share put forward and you talk about their career so you do as much you give them do as much as you possibly can but I think the truth is I think the real truth is that however much you try and do they still see you as a boss and however much you try to change that there's either that realisation that you know you should be stupid you are a boss you've got to you've got to live up to that or you try and change that and I think I was trying to change that I didn't want to be I could see I could see elements of of the fact that I was boss like and I worked a kind of undo it um going back to that day then yeah so the day you know you go home you tell your wife what's happened you've had your key people leave and they've taken some of the some of the team with them what happened then from that point it was even more just to let you know how sort of complicated it was how sort of ingrained we were with each other outside of it not only inside work one of the managers future best men was around at my house I was going to meet him and his wife and to have a drink that evening have a bike to eat and then you know I got in and I thought right well I won't sort of you know try and drop this on them but i did so they you know they couldn't understand they couldn't believe it and all the rest of it and then the the big shock was on the i was upset um i had a couple of people come around on the saturday and try and help me out and understand what was going on i had a competitor friend of mine neely came around and made me count and come around on the saturday they've never been to my house before so it was a big big deal all of a sudden you've got these people he's kind kind of all we're seeing as just your business buddies to a certain degree, all of a sudden, around in your house.

[348] So that's quite a big, big message.

[349] And then on the Sunday, we went to the studio and started to look for evidence of wrongdoing.

[350] And I'd spoke to my solicitor, and he was kind of saying, you know, look for X, Y and Z. And these are the things you can look at.

[351] The first smoking gun was that we'd seen an intellectual, property release form which should have been signed by me and I wasn't aware of it for one of our clients so that was the first thing to think oh god right okay they're really at it here what does that mean freebie that doesn't know so when we create something and design something for a customer we own the IP to it it's kind of it resides with us and we have to release that to a customer so customers sometimes ask for it but we you know very rarely release it typically we're pretty good agency we say you know once it's paid for it for we released it but some customers will also ask for it it's quite unusual though so to see it signed on the date that they left by one of the people that left was really worrying we then found another one for another for another brand another client then we got onto one of the computers and we seen that there was a we transfer thank you message saying thank you for transferring your files from here to this new email address and this new email address was this new agency that they'd set up and I was kind of expected it but was just feeling lower and lower and then we got onto one of the machines and one of the managers had left a huge amount of evidence on there in terms of messages and when we started to read through that that's when with the shock of how long it had been planned over what they'd been doing, what they'd been saying.

[352] How long have it been?

[353] Three months.

[354] So it'd been planned over three months.

[355] So going through the details of that was just just the betrayal.

[356] Just the betrayal.

[357] It was tough to read.

[358] And I knew I needed to read through it to get the evidence together to protect the business.

[359] And had they said things about you personally?

[360] Yeah, yeah.

[361] Things that I imagine weren't very nice.

[362] Yeah, it was kind of laughing and joking about how people I knew in Manchester and other business owners would find out about it.

[363] And it was kind of laughing around what they thought would be my demise.

[364] It was laughing around the fact that, you know, how, the other staff would feel.

[365] Those aren't friends, though, are they?

[366] These aren't people that are friends.

[367] These people, if someone's laughing at your demise, that's somebody that doesn't like you.

[368] Like, they don't want the best for you.

[369] And how does it get to the point where someone that's been with you for five years or known you 15 years is laughing at your demise?

[370] I don't understand that.

[371] Like, that's so tough.

[372] Because, you know, obviously I've got people here who I've known for five years.

[373] And those people are, like they're my brothers.

[374] So the thought of what would have to have happened for them to get to a point where they laughed at me?

[375] I think from why I can see on the messages, it's gone from we're going to do this to we'll approach another staff member, we'll spend a bit of time working on our strategy, we'll start working on our branding, we'll start working on logo.

[376] We've approached these staff, less persons on.

[377] board, that person's on board, we'll work on the website.

[378] So in a hoi time, they're working on their new agency website.

[379] And there was 27 pieces of evidence, including there was six contracts with six full -time staff.

[380] And so reading through that, it's almost like you feel stupid because you think I thought there was a genuine relationship there and it was just all facade.

[381] So you feel dumb, you feel really, really dumb.

[382] How could you have misread that?

[383] In terms of, in hindsight, what have you learned about the warning signs or?

[384] It's a really, really good question and this is something that's kind of haunted me a little bit in terms of like were their little clues I remember sort of noticing that one of the managers was just a little bit off and I said to him you're right is everything okay to have a chat and just kind of thinking he's having a bit of a bad time of his own life just just a bit worried or that he was worried about something at work and he just always dismiss it and the staff were always really open to come in and having a chat with me and, you know, I've had stuff that I've been through really tough personal, you know, health issues and things like that.

[385] So I've always had an open door, you know, always said that you can talk to me any minute, no matter how busy you are, you know, pull me aside.

[386] And for them to, for him to just kind of dismiss it a little bit, in retrospect now, I feel there was a sign there.

[387] But your perception of the situation, vision was so far from what was actually going on.

[388] And that, as a CEO, I'm trying to figure out how, how that's the case.

[389] It was, it was, it was, it was well choreographed.

[390] I mean, they had this thing of working with a black screen with black text, if they were doing anything, it was, and again, in retrospect, I think I nearly, I remember, I remember, sort of switching something off but you have staff like that they might have been I don't know looking at something they shouldn't have been looking at social media or whatever so there was a little element to that but they would work away that if I was coming in and they were in the meeting room talking about their new venture that one of the other ones would guide me away and distract me and talk to me about something else you know if Mark's supposed to be coming at such such a time take them over to the people take on distracting because we're in there talking about such and such thing.

[391] So at that level, yeah, speaking honest, Steve, it's, it's, you do feel stupid.

[392] Like, how have I missed that?

[393] And you start to think, other people looking in on this are going to think, no, something was going on there.

[394] How did he miss that?

[395] But all the other staff were in total shock.

[396] Nobody knew anything.

[397] What, what, I'm, the way that I'm, I'm, I'm.

[398] I've always been, and I think my mum taught me this, because my mum, she started, I don't know, probably 18 or 20 businesses, and all of them have gone bust one by one.

[399] And if you ask my mum why the business went bust, she'll say, she'll either blame it on the government.

[400] She does that a lot.

[401] She also spends her, the other 50 % of the time she blames it on either thieves or she blames it on Nat West.

[402] Because eight of her business, or properties got repossessed.

[403] she taught me that inadvertently she taught me to just take the fucking like blame for everything myself and that like and that's what if we call it an internal locus of control just always trying to look at what I did that could have been better is honestly what I attribute to being able to progress and learn from situations when you look back what are the things you think do you know what I wish I'd done that differently or what areas do you think I should take the blame for that and blames are strong word to use but I think I think if you speak to other people around me I think I'm quick to take the blame I think I spoke to Matthew one of my designers who's worked with me was the first designer that I talk on he still works for me and I was saying to him you know I think I'm to blame for some of these things and genuinely I still do think I'm to blame for that I was too open about what we were doing with the business where we were going what was trying to do and maybe just showing them too much and give them a little bit too much control but I always you always kind of speak to your mentors and they say you know you need to kind of look to build a business that will run without you being there you know you're always pushed you must have been heard that you get that lot so you push it that way so I was undoing that I'm thinking I just let go too much you know I was there and I was running things and again typically if If something happens, you know, shit, it's at the fan, I'll go in and take the blame for it.

[404] And if, you know, something good's happen or whatever, then you'll try and, you know, not take the accolade for it.

[405] You'll let one of the other guys do it.

[406] So, and Matthew had said to me, look, you've been really good to these people.

[407] You can't take the blame for what's gone on.

[408] They've just took advantage.

[409] So going back to you, to answer your question, I think I was maybe too open, especially the finance of the business and what was going.

[410] And I think, you know, we did, I think it was about 90 turnover in the December, which was a, you know, was kind of, we were bouncing about towards getting up to a million turner, which is where it to be.

[411] And I was always open and transparent and honest.

[412] And I think there's a, there's a layer there that you shouldn't go past.

[413] And I've dropped that a little bit, I suppose, with my team now.

[414] I don't discuss too much of what's discussed with the accountants with the senior team I'll give them enough information for them to push on and do what they need to do for the business but not not the granular detail I was always warned about that from my mom and dad you're too up and you're telling him too much my mom was always moaning that you know she was frustrated that her employers never did enough you know, we'd get a box of chocolates at Christmas or whatever and, you know, I'd stick money in a card for my team and always try and do as much as a much as it possibly can.

[415] So I think, certainly with that respect, that's definitely one element, just being too transparent, being too open.

[416] So for this, in the interest of fairness, I'd love those individuals, I think there's six of them, right?

[417] I'd love them to be here because you kind of want to get the perspectives, right?

[418] and I'm sure as hell they'll have a different perspective on the situation as every human being in the world would in any situation and they would have seen it from a different light.

[419] They the individuals that left, they spoke to prolific north didn't they?

[420] Did you read what they said?

[421] I did.

[422] Am I okay to read it?

[423] Yeah, if you want to.

[424] Is that okay?

[425] Because I want to get your take on this.

[426] So they said, we were informed at the end of January of Mark's intentions to put the company into administration, followed by a two -month absence of both O 'Hoy directors, which is referring to yourself, in another person, I'm presuming.

[427] We decided to be proactive and set up this new agency so we could fully utilise our skills and the things we'd learn, essentially, we were conscious of our own reputations, particularly with this not being the first time yourself had entered a company into the position of administration.

[428] And that's essentially what the statement says.

[429] What's your response to that?

[430] Because that's what the first thing I read when...

[431] So, to be clear on this, I was given a call the night before that went live and they said we're going to run this story and I said please don't run the story we've been through enough don't run the story it's going to kill us and I was told you know proletop in Norfolk always been good and they said look really so I've got to run it it was gutted but they run it so we checked what I was going to write with my solicitor and then we got that response and I was fuming because we disappeared for two months we had work going on at home so I wasn't in as much as I would normally talk to me about that because from my own perspective on end because you can imagine that my business is at a point where it's big and I'm required to be all over and you know this month alone I've got 16 speaking appointments in different places so you know with traveling at all things considered I'm here five days this month yeah so when I one of the things you know one of the reasons I want to talk to you is to understand um if that was part of the reason if absence and not being because you've got these two things that are at play you've got like something when that you didn't see when the question becomes why didn't you see it and then you know you say that you're out i want to make sure from a personal standpoint that i'm not like this is a very selfish like i'm not i'm just trying to figure out that i'm not out too much for something similar to take place where i lose touch well stepping back into a bigger picture it so one of the key things that i want to do with running the business was to make sure that i didn't take drastic sacrifices is that I would really deeply regret as I got older.

[432] So trying to spend a bit more time with family.

[433] So my big thing was that I didn't really want to take any other holidays.

[434] But in August, when things went a little bit quiet with decision makers in the business, my dream was to take four weeks off and we'd do camping with the family.

[435] And I did that for four years, every August.

[436] And it was great because each time I went away, there was mistakes that were made.

[437] But then I would come back and we'd talk them through with the team.

[438] So there were things that we missed out and while I was away that could have took the business forward.

[439] But in general, we'd go away, I spent time with family, I wouldn't regret that as I got older.

[440] And it was at a good time of year when decision makers away and all that type of thing.

[441] Katie had asked me, God know how many times, it must be over 12 years.

[442] You know, we've had the same kitchen in the house.

[443] Can we have a new kitchen?

[444] Can we have a new kitchen?

[445] Next year, next year, always put it off.

[446] and we'd start to talk about the fact that we'd do it so I said we'll do it as long as it's on a low budget and I don't want it to affect it so we'll sell one of the cars we'll do up the kitchen Kate's brother was doing it on the cheap who had a mate who could supply the granite so we did it on we did it on the cheap and yeah so I was spending a bit more time doing that but to say it wasn't in the business I mean we did prolific North Live I did that help I put the stand up myself and stood on there for two days we did we did a restaurant and bar show and again I hope that set that up wasn't on the stand so I was there and I was on emails and I was in the business I was turning up and going I'd turn up and I'd turn up and have like stuff that I'd been painting at home or I'd paint my jeans or whatever so to say I disappeared is I had a chance to respond to Philadelphia North and I looked at that and I thought I'm not getting into that Because you're going to go back and forward and back and forwards and it's almost beside the point a little bit in some respects it's not you know you being absent isn't necessarily a good enough reason for you know I can see why it happened but it doesn't really justify their actions like it's not but from my perspective I as a CEO you just conditioned for the buck to stop with you and the blame and everything stops with me because also as a CEO you end up getting all the credit as well so like I just I take both an equal measure and I wondered if upon hindsight you regret not being there more through that period if that's the first thing they cited in this response to Prolific North makes me think it was one of the key things things, the reasons why they were able to gather.

[447] Well, you know, to be fair to them, you could say that was part of it, but it doesn't add up.

[448] You know, it was three months planning.

[449] So it doesn't even add up.

[450] It was, they started this in, start January.

[451] What do you think it is then?

[452] Do you think it's bad people?

[453] Do you think, do you think they were?

[454] No, I don't think the bad people.

[455] I think they've just made a really bad decision with, with, with what they were doing.

[456] I don't think they're bad people.

[457] I just think they've made a really rash decision.

[458] I think they've got caught up in, we could start up our own business.

[459] Okay, well, kind of compare it to like kids in a sweet shop and the sweet shop owner's gone out and you know you shouldn't put your sweets in your pocket, but you think, right, okay, we'll do this, right, we'll take a couple of staff because recruiting people, so we'll get some of the staff and take them.

[460] and then right we won't take one we'll take two we'll take two we'll take three and before you know it you're trying to build up your stepping stone and you've kind of just gone over but you've kind of lost yourself do you think if they had a closer bond to you or the company or to the vision or why they were there they would have done that I don't think so I think it's a case of do you think they were engaged with the company They're engaged with, they had a relationship, a strong relationship with you.

[461] Yeah.

[462] Yeah, yeah.

[463] I'm sort of really strong relationship, very strong relationship.

[464] But I don't think that was the issue.

[465] I think it was, they've had ambition about what they want to do.

[466] And it's just overridden everything else.

[467] The thing I'm trying to understand as well is how they managed to gain that, like, consensus to do that.

[468] Because I, you know, I just, every time I ask these questions, I'm thinking about it.

[469] from my own perspective.

[470] I'm like, what would have to have happened for any six people here to get to a point where they come to me one day and they say, Steve, by all six of us are leaving, we're starting new business.

[471] And I think, okay, I probably, the first thing was, in my head, I'm like, I wouldn't have been here for a couple of months, like, a while.

[472] I would go to New York and they see me, like, I don't know, on jet skis around, you know, in the harbour flying around and they think, well, we're working here while he's off on jet skis second thing is I'm like okay even if I was here they get really disillusioned about why we're here they don't really like being here the third thing is okay one of the points you touched on where you've shared so much and the affinity to the company and what we're doing here is quite weak so they think do you know what we can actually do this ourselves and make something better than what we're yeah that's it it's it's it's because I can imagine I've thought about this a lot from what I can see is they've thought we can do this we've learned now we can do this and we can maybe do it in a different way and what about their regard for you though as a person do they not what do you think their feelings are to you do they do they just not care about your position were they remorseful as well I messages aside because they weren't meant for my eyes, I think it was a bit of lad culture bravado, kind of, you know, all in the messages, kind of...

[473] Sure, yeah, yeah.

[474] So, on first sight of that, you'd take that, you know, that hurts.

[475] It really hurts.

[476] But then you take a step back and go, look, it was a frame of mind.

[477] You've got to take a bit of context with it.

[478] It's the excitement of, we're setting this up and we're going to do things different.

[479] Yeah, exactly.

[480] So I don't sort of hold that against them in any way.

[481] so I think I think that kind of that kind of hat up and I think there was I think there was respect for me and I and I would think that they'll probably have moments when they're not around each other where they think they'll look at themselves in a mirror or they'll have a moment where they think about and think pretty bad what we did to him there you know we left we left him eye and drive that could have been the end of Ahoy, that could have been the end of his career, which we could have done that differently.

[482] And was that thing of your career?

[483] No, I'm still here.

[484] So talk to me about that, talk to me about that transition out of that then.

[485] So that happens to you, you go through that, you then you put the company into administration to recover the assets essentially, so you can keep the brand.

[486] So we had legal fees going up.

[487] Really high.

[488] We had a really good legal team.

[489] we, the reason we defended our position was because there was such an abundance of evidence and we wanted to try and protect them taking clients or, you know, for instance, one of the pieces of evidence that had come forward is that they'd put a credentials pack together for this new brand that they'd created and they'd used assets from Hawaii, so they'd use their own pictures and in this credentials pack who we've worked with, it was all the logos that we'd used, it was to a customer that had inquired to a Hoy so it looked like they'd scooped an inquiry away from my so without going into all those details because it's not really quite painting the picture I'm trying to not go into that you you you look at that and think right okay that's how far is this going to go yeah I've got to I've got to protect it somewhere for a start the IP the such a property of what they've created in a Hoy time actually belongs to me so they're using something that belongs to a Hoy so that was something that we did protect and they had to change their brand which will have been a massive inconvenience for them but either brand an agency so you just create a new brand it off you go so talk to me about that process out of that so so we we then went through the evidence that was just tough you know going through evidence until 5 o 'clock in the morning and pulling stuff together for the solicitors and then going to a meeting in Liverpool or whatever, it's just a massive, massive drain.

[490] You know, going through such a wealth of it and lots of backers and forward with the solicitors, knowing that this is going to be in the High Court in Manchester, we've got a barrister booked, and we got to a point where we had our barrister booked, everything was set, a date was set, and then their solicitor came back and said, you know, we, we don't want to move forward, we need more time.

[491] So at that junction, we said, right, we're going to give you more time, but we want, like, an affidavit.

[492] So it's like a sworn oath of what would happen.

[493] So they signed this oath in order for us to give them more time, and they admitted the clients did met, you know, files they'd taken, basically a lot of.

[494] the things that they've done yeah so um and at that time we've got clients that are saying um you know we don't want to be involved in this tiff we can't place the work with you we've not got the confidence and we worked out we lost about 160 hundred 70 grand's worth of work so i've got costs going up um revenues going down we we had tax repayments that we were that we were paying through a voluntary agreement so i'm paying off tax every month which we've been paying I've got cost going up I've got income going down and I've got not got crystal ball don't know which way this is going to go so sat down spoke to someone I know was advising me and he just said you know you might have to look at a possible administration so you do that you do the administration yeah so you continue the administration then the the story I've got told the story would come out and plific north and just couldn't believe it just couldn't believe it and I was just kind of bracing myself for it the next day I was then going to London because my daughter had an audition down there at an audition and my phone just wouldn't stop going I was on the train to London you know it's like when you're trying to go on your train to London you can never get reception it was just oh it was just I remember just sweating profusely just sweating and trying to not show that I was stressed to my daughter, Mia.

[495] What was the response like when every bit, when their agency world found out that that had happened?

[496] It was supportive.

[497] I'd had a lot of people get in touch and say, keep going, don't give up.

[498] And I think there was a lot of, you know, bad mouthing them to a certain degree.

[499] But it was, it was nice to get the message.

[500] to say, you know, you'll get through this, keep going, that type of thing.

[501] So it was moving, really, because some of these people, some of these agency owners I'd never spoke to, some had really good relationships, I met with different networking events and things like that.

[502] So that was really nice to kind of, to get those messages.

[503] So, yeah, it was nice.

[504] And then you end up, you know, re sort of, you know, bringing a Hoy back to life.

[505] You've restarted it now, you're running again, you're serving clients again.

[506] Yeah, so we had to rehire managers, get on really well with those people now.

[507] It's really positive.

[508] It's a smaller team, so it's a little bit more manageable, not a big amount to feed, less stress.

[509] We have our existing clients, so they've got a couple of clients, and we've got other clients that we're still working with.

[510] we've won new pictures and new clients and it's positive we moved into a new office I'm not trying to say you know everything's sunshine and rainbows but you know it still it still hurts what happened and you know I have moments where you know I found out one of them was having a baby you know and I thought it would have been nice to wish them well and I kind of really deep down hope that I could probably speak to them at some point in the future but it's just a bit of raw at the minute would you think you're going to get to a point where you can forgive them and move on because someone once said to me and I think I said this in my podcast that and it always stayed with me the day that someone said it they said forgiveness is letting a prisoner go and as they run off into the distance realizing that you were the prisoner the whole time oh god yeah what's not healthy is just having that anger and as time moves on that gets easier um you know having those moments where you're laying in bed thinking how can those people do that to me have had loads of people say how did you get out of that room how did you get out of that room without fighting or you know smashing something or whatever um so so you i think i think you're right i think you've got to forgive but they might feel you know what's it to forgive we went and set our own ages and we took a few your stuff.

[511] That's fine, but it's not for them, is it?

[512] That's what forgiveness is how.

[513] I've learned forgiveness is all about.

[514] It's for you.

[515] It's for you.

[516] Yeah.

[517] And, you know, it's for your daughter and it's for your family.

[518] It's for your sanity and your mind.

[519] And you just got to, you know, people do you wrong.

[520] That's guaranteed.

[521] Your reaction to those situations isn't.

[522] And you can, that's the thing you have power over now.

[523] Yeah.

[524] You can't change the past, but you can certainly make your future much more pleasant by just letting it go.

[525] And I think you'll find total peace in that.

[526] Yeah.

[527] The piece that you haven't got The only reason you wouldn't have peace now is because you're still holding it a little bit or there's resentment or yeah And that's also like rising above them You know, that's like That's a classy thing to do in my mind I think I've tried to And it's not you're only human You're only human I know that the To let it go Will be a lot easier And I'll be able to move on And I've tried to do that And I think I have done that It's better you know, we've said in the agency, we just not talk, we won't talk about it, you know, at sort of, you know, try not to look at what they're doing on social media, and again, just being totally honest, you do, keep an eye on what they're doing.

[528] Yeah, it's like an ex, it's like flicking.

[529] You could become a creeper.

[530] Oh, you've got that, or whatever, it's, you know, but, but I think for me, that, what happened with a terrorist attack thing, it really helped bring home just perspective.

[531] Perspective.

[532] Talk to me about, massively.

[533] Talk to me about the terrorist attack then.

[534] What was, what happened now?

[535] Yeah, this is a bit more difficult to talk about.

[536] So, yeah, I got news of what happened in Prolific North, the story breaking, and then I had seen their response, which was really gutted about.

[537] Decided to not do a response and call them out on a few things.

[538] I just thought I'd just leave it.

[539] Got into London, we went and had a night out, and then on the Saturday we went to me's audition and then in the evening we were just looking for a pub because the Champions League final was on and I'd said oh this this this this pub there's a bit of a beer garden at the back sort of it's quite closed you know kids can kind of sort of you know mill about there if they don't want to sit up and stairs and watch the football we'll go watch the footie footy finished and we were just about to leave and they'd made a mistake with our nachos and I chose to save our life And so they said Well get you another round of drinks Just as an apology I was like no no don't be daft It's fine Now these things happen No no no please let me get you another round drinks Yeah okay no worries Get us another round of drinks We had another round of drinks And then I stood up to put my jacket on And We were on the first floor And I looked out into the beer garden And there was a lady Lay on the floor With about six people around her Just trying to sort of retustain I think oh she must have choked or had heart attack something like that.

[540] It turns out that was the Australian lady that had a throat slip and died.

[541] And then again, unbeknown, there was a lady that had been stabbed in the neck downstairs in the pub.

[542] We went downstairs and onto underneath the bridge where the attack happened.

[543] And it was just chaos.

[544] There's people screaming, shouting.

[545] The bouncer was come behind.

[546] He's like, you know, you're either in, you're out.

[547] Get out of her.

[548] It was like, didn't know what to do.

[549] The family that was with, there was Gordon Leslie and their two daughters, they went up onto the bridge and we turned left towards Borough Market.

[550] And Gordon phoned me said, there's just carnage on the bridge.

[551] There's people dead.

[552] There's people screaming.

[553] There's blood everywhere.

[554] There's a terrorist attack going on.

[555] You need to get home.

[556] So I was saying, right, well, what are you going to do?

[557] You're going to carry on across the bridge.

[558] You're going to come back.

[559] He says, no, I'll get to the hotel.

[560] So I said, right, well, you just get to safety.

[561] we'll get the safety and I'll phone you phone you when we're there so we carried on sort of past where we so just to let you know the pub we were in the terrorist attack happened they crashed into Barrow and Banker boy whatever it was we were in the pub behind it and the cathedral the terrorists had run around the back of the cathedral and towards Burr Market and unbe known to us we were walking or running behind them and we got into sort of the the main bit where the main market is and we could see a lot going on so we were trying to sort of see if we could get in anywhere just to get off the street just you had that kind of sense of doesn't feel safe just it's sort of is it you know how many people are there how many people on the street we didn't know couldn't get in any of the doors every just nobody let you in any of the restaurants because everyone was scared and locked inside and maybe it's because I've got a beard look like a terrorist attacker.

[562] So we, to cut the story short, we got into this side entrance, got into the restaurant, stayed there and just sat there and there was just this fear of do we stay here or how we're sitting ducks.

[563] Could have gun be shot through the window or could an explosion happen?

[564] And then, sorry, so before we went to the restaurant, it was the police had turned up and there's three policemen got out with machine guns, rifles or whatever, automatic.

[565] weapons and then I knew it was like bad and then we hid in the restaurant and he's just there checking your phone and never seen my daughter or wife so scared it was just I can vividly remember it now just sort of thinking back and everyone was really scared sat in the restaurant you didn't know what to do and I remember thinking well there's a knife there in the kitchen I can protect myself with that there were situations where people were opening the side door and then some people were saying shut it and then someone had locked it but there's no key so if they come in the front are we going to get out of the back just a mish -mash of like what's going to like this this decision now could be us alive or dead you know you're thinking what we're going to do what we're going to do and it was just horrendous there was a lady there that couldn't stand just don't know if it was stress or what but she was just like leant against the wall got with something to sit on and everyone was just just really scared, huddled and there was just shots outside police running past and then eventually the police came in and the screaming shouting, you know, hands on heads and everything and that's sort of a tactic that they use and then we went out again at the back, around the back of the cathedral and we couldn't go right towards our hotel, found out our hotel was being used as a makeshift hospital and we had to go left over the bridge and again seeing everything that had happened was worried about what my daughter would see and just scared and then we got to the other side of the bridge and we'd seen everything that happened and then it was just this fear of being we're on the street still and that whole incident how what impact has what lasting impact has that had on you because I know Dom co -founder of social chain he was in Paris on the first night when the attacks happened outside the football stadium and then in all the coffee shops so he again was stranded out on the streets and it's changed him in many ways I think he's also got a fear of certain situations to a degree my son didn't go to London because of what had happened in the Manchester attack and he was also scared because we've been to Old Trafford when the fake bomb scare happened and that was like we nearly got crushed and that was bad so he's in his mind he just didn't walk and be fine be absolutely fine and there's just certain situations where the market's opened in Manchester the thing I think straight away is you know what if there's an attack there it's just on your mind it's just always on your mind you just see situations differently and there might be something that flags up you might see a certain type of top that someone was wearing that you remember when they were there or a certain noise or it just it's always it's always there at the back of your mouth the toughest thing is dealing with the serendipity of it it freaks you out you know what if what if you'd not forgot those nachos how would I have dealt with being on the street with three men with knives wrapped around what could he have done could he have would have just took the blows and got my wife and daughter run away you know Gordon was got really upset at one point because he was thinking if I had to jump off the bridge again if they had to he would have been on the bridge as the van was coming down the bridge and he had to jump over into the water could he have tread water he was swimming in a pool and he just he just got really upset just this cycle of thought had gone through his head what if and he just couldn't get out of the loop you know which would he have saved his wife or which daughter or how would he'd been able to do that it just really freaks you out and yeah it was one of those experiences I imagine you can only really appreciate if you were there as well and you go through it yeah so to conclude then it's it's hard to to be honest Steve it's easy to tell you the facts of what happened that one is a bit more difficult to kind of tell you how it felt yeah and for anyone to resonate with how it felt I imagine yeah you don't mean getting upset on your podcast no it's okay it's not really yeah so to conclude then what would you say to I got two questions what would you say to 18 year old Mark what advice would you give him looking back on the things that have happened to you, you've got this incident where, you know, immense betrayal and you're stabbed in the back and the stresses of running a business and all these wonderful things which you only learn from doing, then you've got this incident in London which puts things into perspective.

[566] What would you say to 19, 18 year old Mark to prepare him for the life that was ahead of him?

[567] Listen to the people around you that are saying, you're saying too much, be a little bit more guarded about the information.

[568] I think, I would say to him, be genuine and be genuine, you know, don't be scared of giving, be open and honest, but not at your detriment.

[569] I think it's difficult because it's hard to look at what decisions I could have made.

[570] These little details are what I could have made differently, but I wouldn't change how I've been.

[571] with those staff members and with my existing staff members, I think I would say continue to be that way.

[572] But when things are going well, when you fly in, be prepared that things can come from all different angles and you've just got to deal with it.

[573] You've just got to deal with it.

[574] And had you known at the very start before you started a whole way that that was going to happen, would you have started it?

[575] I think so.

[576] So if I told you it was going to happen again, would you carry on?

[577] This is the danger that it could.

[578] I think it's still at the back, you know, it's always at the back of your mind.

[579] I think, yeah, I would.

[580] Absolutely.

[581] I absolutely love what I do.

[582] I love design.

[583] I love photography.

[584] Running an agency and being in control of what you do and the clients you have and the staff you bring on and, you know, bringing people together and all that kind thing it's it is the best feeling in the world but you will continually have the stress that can be alleviated with things like investment and things like that to a certain degree but you've still got that you've still got that stress and so what's the what's the what's the what's the big dream then for you what's the the the end goal for mark i think long long term i'd like to love france I'd like to retire in France at some point.

[585] I'd like to go into teaching at some point, whether that's mentoring or whether it's more one -on -one and at a lower level.

[586] So, you know, maybe teaching within design.

[587] With the agency, our dream is that we want to be known for, as a brand of agencies, for working with challenger brands.

[588] So taking brands that are unheard of or are certain peg down and just allowing them to punch way above the weight, that's still the key for us.

[589] We want to be known for, I kind of like that feeling when they look at the site and go, oh, no few of those brands, oh, that makes sense.

[590] All those little brands that I like, all those different things I like, it's all from this one particular agency.

[591] And just for that, I just want to make sure we, got respect from the clients that we do the work with, that it's commercial, commercial, it works for them, it makes a big impact on their business.

[592] And also having kudos and respect from peers, so the other agencies look at us and go, do you know what, wow, they're doing really, really good stuff.

[593] And on a personal level, what is your, what is your happiness?

[594] And are you happy now?

[595] Yeah, well, it's funny of saying this to someone the other day.

[596] a lot harder.

[597] I'm working longer hours and doing more things and like you, what you were saying as well is sort of managing my time.

[598] I'm having to sort of really be decisive about the things I do and don't do.

[599] But I do feel a lot happier at the moment.

[600] I don't know where it is.

[601] I think maybe I'm a little bit closer.

[602] Maybe it's a little bit smaller.

[603] I feel like I've got my agency back.

[604] That's where it feels like.

[605] I feel like I've got my agency back.

[606] Some of the kind of culture which was there has gone which is quite nice it's kind of like a bit of a clean slate a bit more measured feel I've got the agency back it feels a bit more smaller and manageable it's been great to see some of the other members of the team that were more junior when they started to have a better bond with them and see them and give them the ability to have a bit more impact on the business that's been a absolutely amazing.

[607] Seeing them move into a new office, which, in all honesty, maybe that's something I should have done earlier.

[608] Maybe, you know, the team talks about moving to Manchester and that's what they did when they set their other agency.

[609] Maybe that's something I should, that's something I could kick myself for, maybe I should have done that sooner.

[610] So getting our team into Manchester and seeing how happy they've been, that's been really, really rewarding.

[611] Amazing.

[612] So that's a very long interview.

[613] And, you know, it's been a long journey.

[614] But I think it's given a very honest account of a situation that's happened.

[615] And I thank you for being so open and honest.

[616] I'm very excited to be able to share this with people.

[617] And from my perspective and from what I've heard from the grapevine as being an agency here in Manchester, one of the things I've always heard people say is how good the work is you do.

[618] And, you know, people will talk about your story because there's a, you know, that people will gossip and they'll say good things and bad things or there'll be you know speculation but something that's never come under speculation is how good your work is and it's always been held in such a high account almost from the conversations i've had and i'm not involved in design but as the standard so that's and that's something that irrespective of betrayal or you know bad times no one can really take from you and that's the foundation of you being able to them in my opinion go on and build something great again because no matter how you look at it, it kind of started with you.

[619] And so no one can take that.

[620] So I want to thank you for coming on.

[621] How has it been?

[622] I'm worried we've been too honest, but I think that's the whole point of it.

[623] Yeah, I just can't thank you enough.

[624] I think, you know, I appreciate your position and how busy you are and what you're doing and, you know, you're all over the world, not just all over Manchester.

[625] It's been really good, actually.

[626] I think, do you know what I'm really happy about that you've challenged me on it?

[627] You've actually read out that response in Pliffingoff, which you didn't tell me about, you bugger.

[628] But I'm glad you've done that because it gives them a fair, just kind of bite at it as well.

[629] It kind of gives them a, it feels, all right, they're not in the room to be able to talk about it, but it gives, it kind of, you've tried to see it from their side as well.

[630] which I think is important I really do so yeah just to add yeah can't thank you enough really good so it'd be a bit weird to listen to me self on the podcast when I'm driving in me my band now but yeah it's great and I'm really looking forward to the other podcast I know you've been saying you're going to do it about Jim Shark and all that kind of thing so yeah I can't wait and thanks for you know I'm the first one yeah thanks for coming on Mark and I really really appreciate it thank you appreciate it thanks Thank you.