Rebel Wilson: I Experimented With Ozempic! Childhood Trauma Was The Reason I Couldn't Lose Weight & ALL The Truth About Sacha Baron Cohen!

[0] It was the worst professional experience of my career, and this was before the Me Too movement.

[1] I felt humiliated and degraded.

[2] What can you say about that experience?

[3] Rebel Wilson!

[4] An award -winning Hollywood superstar.

[5] Okay, here we go.

[6] My dad would say horrible things to my mum, fat, lazy cow.

[7] No one will ever love you.

[8] And I had issues with food because I had low self -worth, and that's why I would trash my body.

[9] I felt my life wasn't going to be anything.

[10] But then I found motivational tapes that said, The brave put down their fears and go forward.

[11] And so I decided to go out into the world and make a name for myself.

[12] And then I noticed on stage that people like laughing at bigger people.

[13] I thought, I could use this to my advantage.

[14] I gained all this weight.

[15] My body was like at 102 kilos.

[16] And then I came to America.

[17] And now I'm making millions of dollars from playing the fat, funny girl.

[18] I'm living this amazing life.

[19] But you achieve it and then it's not enough.

[20] And it's still a virgin.

[21] and never dated properly.

[22] And this biological clock, you could hear it going, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip.

[23] Went to the fertility doctor.

[24] And the doctor looks me up and down and goes, you're not healthy.

[25] And it really sunk in.

[26] I've got to fix this.

[27] But as soon as I started telling people in my team, they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, why would you want to lose weight?

[28] Because then you lose your multimillion dollar career.

[29] You're just going to throw it away?

[30] Was that your hardest moment?

[31] No, the darkest point in my life was when I was 13.

[32] And...

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[40] Thank you and enjoy this episode.

[41] Rebel.

[42] I think to understand somebody, you have to understand.

[43] understand their earliest context.

[44] And as I read through your book Rebel Rising, which is out now, I was surprised in many ways, but also the person that I'd seen on a screen made sense in a bunch of different ways.

[45] So let me throw that question to you as the first question, which is, if I was to endeavor to understand you, what do I need to know about your earliest context?

[46] Yeah, I guess some people see you on screen and they have this image of what you are like.

[47] And often, I guess, people would think some overly confident, very confident in her sexuality and, you know, just a kind of brash, ballsy person.

[48] But from my upbringing, I mean, I think I couldn't be more the opposite.

[49] I mean, I grew up in a pretty regular suburban Australian upbringing, but was extremely shy to the point.

[50] where, like, you'd never think that I would choose entertainment for a career.

[51] Like, that would just be unimaginable for this, like, bordering on some kind of social disorder shyness.

[52] And then coming from quite a humble beginning of being in a family where we made money selling pet products out of a yellow caravan at dog shows.

[53] And so driving around the country to these dog shows and selling, like, pooper scoopers to pick up the poop for the dogs and brushes and leads for the dogs and all these things.

[54] And so it wasn't, also I was allergic to dogs, so that's why my childhood always felt a little bit uncomfortable, which I never realized why until later when I got tested as an adult that I was allergic.

[55] And so I think by writing the book, people can see this whole other dimension of me and kind of maybe why I have the personality that I have now.

[56] What about your parents?

[57] So my mum was as a school teacher in state schools.

[58] So I had a lot of refugee students and students that came in not knowing English.

[59] And she mainly taught kindergarten.

[60] They're like all these kids.

[61] So she's just like a light, you know, light of a woman, like just a brilliant teacher, I helped so many young people.

[62] And for some parts of my childhood, she was just.

[63] stay -at -home mom, which I shouldn't say just because now I'm realizing being a mum is like the hardest thing ever.

[64] And then my dad was someone who his father died suddenly when he was 18 in his final year of high school.

[65] So I think that through his life what was supposed to be his life off course.

[66] And he kind of had emotional issues from losing his dad suddenly that young.

[67] and in a tragic way.

[68] So he had, I believe, you know, wanted to be a businessman and wanted to be successful.

[69] But I guess because of his own emotional issues and stuff didn't quite fully achieve his potential.

[70] How do you know that your father didn't quite achieve his potential?

[71] What were like the symptoms of that?

[72] Because you seemed to be quite sure that that was causal in something.

[73] I think because he was so angry all the time, and money was a source of fighting in the household.

[74] So, and I just like, so for example, we'd go to the racetrack with the horses, and my dad sometimes would own like at one -tenth or one -twentyth of a racehorse in a syndicate.

[75] And he'd look at the other high flyers, rich people who'd had had a lot of money and was successful, and people knew their names and stuff.

[76] And I definitely saw that he wanted to be that, but he wasn't that.

[77] Nobody was coming up to him and shaking his hand or admiring him.

[78] And then in one of the chapters of the book, I write about, I found this gym bag in the back of his car and it was full of all these cassettes.

[79] And I just took them, nobody ever said anything, why they were there.

[80] And I noticed they were all motivational tapes.

[81] and the one that I clearly remember was one called How to Win Friends and Influence People.

[82] And I think this was my father's way of trying to improve himself and trying to be better.

[83] And a lot of the tapes were about business, about selling and how to be better in business.

[84] And so I feel like even though we never openly discussed it, I feel like why would he have those kind of things?

[85] because he wanted to better himself.

[86] I just don't think he had the ability to.

[87] And then his life just didn't go in the way that he wanted to.

[88] And I think because of the death of his father, he just never seemed to be able to process emotions properly.

[89] That was the best way.

[90] Probably nowadays you would go to someone and get diagnosed with what kind of issues you had or seek therapy or something like that to get over the trauma.

[91] But I guess back in Australia in those days, that wasn't a thing.

[92] And so he was a man who just, you know, wanted to be better, but then just couldn't like, just didn't have the skills, the emotional skills.

[93] That trauma eventually finds an outlet either way.

[94] If you don't address it through like therapy, it finds other ways to manifest itself.

[95] And what were those ways?

[96] And I think with him it was being angry.

[97] And he would just turn from all of a sudden talking normally to, he would go really red in the face like just like it was almost like a red balloon suddenly like his face would almost expand and he'd go really red and he'd just have these absolutely like angry outbursts where he'd do and say horrible things and I think that that was probably stemming from when he lost his father in an unfair way and he just didn't know how to deal with it so probably like you know if he is now and if you know I would be like oh you know you should talk to someone a professional and process your emotions properly and but but then back then I guess we didn't we didn't really know what to do or say that was just his personality to bring this into into light I guess the example you're given the book is when you're I think you were 12 or something years old and you decide you were young it was the summer it was hot yeah and you decide to wet the bed to cool yourself down.

[98] Yeah, we got back from a dog show and was really hot.

[99] Sometimes in Australia we have like these really hot, like 36 degree days.

[100] And so we thought, well, we'll pour water all over the mattress to like wet it down.

[101] So we'd kind of be lying in coolness.

[102] And then my father came in and just, he thought I think we'd literally wet the bed, you know, like gone to the toilet on the bed, which we never would have done.

[103] We were like, looking back, we were like the most well -behaved.

[104] children you could imagine um and he just like he just it was like a switch would flick you know and he'd just go up really angry and would just start whacking us and it was just um it was i don't know it just seemed to it just something would tick him off or something and he'd just lose it um and that was one of the incidents but i was really young i think i was about eight and my sister was six liberty and when I spoke to her about writing the book and she was like she doesn't totally remember that exact instance but she remembers several others that are very similar um things but that one I just remembered really clearly and then I felt like a terrible person because I thought oh well why did I wet the sheets and the mattress and I was trying to cool down but that was wrong and I should never be naughty like that um and it just kind of yeah really stuck to me that that particular time but that was something that would happen you know quite a bit and this sort of physical aggression and emotional abuse would continue to your mother as well it would extend to your mother as well yeah more with my mum it was more emotional abuse like um come home and say oh you fat lazy cow what have you done all day stuff like, oh, no one will ever love you, just like these comments that would just come constantly and also more financial abuse, like he'd take control of the finances, but then go and gamble with the money, and then we'd have no money, and so more with that, but with the kids it was more the, you know, the physical hitting, which was not, was not that uncommon.

[105] in the area I grew up in.

[106] I mean, I know now, like, I could never think of hitting my child.

[107] Now, I just would never.

[108] But back then, it was quite common.

[109] And we did have family friends that their dad would hit them with a belt, which was kind of a bit even worse.

[110] So we kind of felt like, like we didn't know anything that different.

[111] It was quite common.

[112] I ask those particular questions because I often think that we learn our first model of what love is and what a relationship is by what we observe with our parents.

[113] And for me, I know for sure that watching my parents, how they interacted, left me with a message that I absolutely do not want to be in a romantic relationship.

[114] And I avoided that for my whole life.

[115] Yeah, that's probably why I never dated anybody ever.

[116] Because I saw my parents, my mom kind of became a shell of a woman and had to have every ounce of strength in order to get out of that relationship eventually when I was like 16, 17.

[117] And that left me thinking, I will never get married.

[118] I don't want to be in a partnership with somebody.

[119] Like, this is terrible.

[120] Because often when my dad would have his outbursts or whatever, it was always at home, it was not in public.

[121] It was not around other people.

[122] It was like just when we're at home.

[123] And I went, who would want that?

[124] Like, there was nothing loving about it.

[125] And I think, even though I had one boyfriend when I was 16.

[126] And then he cheated on me with a friend.

[127] And then I was like, that's it.

[128] And then from then throughout the whole of my teenage and 20s, like did not date one person because I guess I didn't want to be like my mother and have this like awful thing happen that, you know, obviously now the story is great for my mom.

[129] She's now engaged to a great man who's awesome.

[130] and so kind and loving.

[131] But my only representation, I guess, was their marriage, and it was awful.

[132] Like, it was just, even when they separated, it took seven years to, and basically left my mum with nothing because all the money went to the lawyers from the separation costs.

[133] And I was just like, oh, like, why would I want that?

[134] I go, no, I would like to be successful and go out into the world and make a name for myself and a romantic relationship would only cause me pain, only drag me down, not allow me to be my true self.

[135] So I thought, yeah, I just thought I would never, I'd never wanted one until you get real lonely when you become successful.

[136] And then you're like, oh, maybe.

[137] Maybe things can change.

[138] What am I going to do with all this stuff?

[139] Yeah.

[140] I think some of my darkness comes, This is a quote from your book.

[141] I think some of my darkness comes from my dad.

[142] There is definitely convict history on that side of my family.

[143] A lot of dodginess.

[144] When you say a lot of my darkness, it's interesting because I remember sitting with Tim Grover, who I reference a lot.

[145] And Tim Grover was the guy who coached Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant for pretty much the most significant parts of their career.

[146] I think I've listened to that episode.

[147] Yeah, yeah.

[148] Amazing.

[149] I'm a big basketball fan.

[150] Yeah, yeah.

[151] It was incredible.

[152] And one of the things he said to me early was that everyone has their dark.

[153] side, and then, which is often from their early experiences and all those kinds of things.

[154] And then it's often, our light side is often created by our dark side in many respects.

[155] Yeah.

[156] So I see shades of what I would guess was your dark side in those early years of your story.

[157] But when you say that, your dark side probably came from your father.

[158] What are you referring to?

[159] So I kind of feel like I have friends in the industry, right, who have had had.

[160] like quite awesome childhoods and you know and and to me sometimes in their work they come across as very vanilla and then I was thinking about I go why aren't they as interesting or something and they're great and they're talented but they're just not as interesting and I normally when I chat to them you find out oh they have two loving parents and they had a great childhood and so for me I think why I have certain parts of my personality and like to do comedy and stuff because I have this, I have a lightness which definitely comes from my mum and my mum's side of the family that are all like that.

[161] And then on my dad's side, it's just like dodginess everywhere.

[162] And like, you know, alcoholism and like addictions and and just also a mentality of just, I don't know how to explain it best apart from saying it's a bit dodgy.

[163] But in a way, and then sometimes when, I mean, I don't suffer from like actual depression or whatever, but then sometimes if you're feeling like you're, oh, you know, sometimes it feels like a mafia sensation when you're like, oh, I want to get revenge on those people or something, you know, I'm like shocked of where these feelings come from and they're normally from the dark side.

[164] But if I didn't have that, I don't think I'd be as interesting as a person or as a performer.

[165] And I'd definitely like sometimes have an edginess to jokes and stuff, which I guess I wouldn't have had if I didn't have, you know, one side of the family be a bit dodgy and the other side be light.

[166] So I knew I knew the difference and I knew I kind of had both.

[167] But you can embody both, and that's quite interesting.

[168] Yeah.

[169] When someone can present us both at the same time, a little bit sadistic as well.

[170] But in the cover of your book, it says that you're always questioning, am I good enough?

[171] I can relate for many reasons of my own to do with like coming here when I was...

[172] But do you think, Stephen, that's why you're successful because you're asking yourself that question?

[173] I think it's intrinsically linked to why I was apparently so driven.

[174] Mm -hmm.

[175] Yeah.

[176] which I've come to, I've come to ask myself in recent years, I'm actually driven or am I being dragged by something?

[177] They both looked the same.

[178] Yeah.

[179] But when you're dragged, it's more, it's, there's less control.

[180] Yeah.

[181] Less ability to stop and slow down.

[182] And you're a workaholic.

[183] I read that in the pages of book.

[184] So I think maybe you're also in the dragged category to some degree.

[185] And my dragging came from being not enough in the context.

[186] I was, you know, only black kid, poorest family in the area.

[187] So you're, there's a deep sort of sense of shame and insecurity.

[188] that you're trying to fill, prove to others on yourself that you're not.

[189] My question was about when that started in you, what made you, can you look back and find out what made you feel like you weren't enough?

[190] I think I definitely get self -esteem and self -worth from achievements.

[191] And so when it was in school, it would be getting 100 % in every exam, and that would be good.

[192] And if I didn't, I'd feel bad about myself.

[193] And then, I don't know, just generally being successful in things gives me, like, makes me feel good about myself.

[194] But then I was thinking about one of the reasons why I had issues with food and because I had low self -worth and then I felt like I was not good enough.

[195] I was like trash and that's why I would trash my body because I just felt like, well, I don't deserve anything different.

[196] And then that's a really complicated question to work out, well, why don't I feel good enough?

[197] And I've thought about it a lot and and some things.

[198] I know, but then some things I think, I don't know why.

[199] Some things are as simple as like, for example, being born a girl in the area where I was from, and boys were more praised.

[200] Like, even at the dog shows, everyone did something called junior handling.

[201] And then if a boy ever entered, he'd normally win because it was like, oh, boys doing it.

[202] Whereas girls just weren't seen as being as good.

[203] the boys' school I went to an all -girls high school but the boys' school next door was seen as more prestigious and better and they had the multi -million dollar theatre at their school and you know it was just and so I think some of it is just as simple as like being born a girl in the area and I was like God that's so dumb though why didn't I transcend that and then some of it must have been from not feeling love, although obviously I know my parents loved me very, very much.

[204] But because of, I came from a very conservative family, we didn't really talk about emotions and feelings.

[205] And so it wasn't expressed in the way that I probably needed it too.

[206] So I didn't feel good enough unless I was getting first in my grade in a subject or something and then I was congratulated and so then I felt good um or winning a prize or a trophy and that's when you would get the praise from the people you kind of are yeah and so I just kind of went with that um but it's just but then it's like I like there was nothing wrong with me I go why did I not feel good enough but I guess I've always felt that um and it's kind of sad when you think about it because you're like, why would somebody, it's not like I did anything bad or, you know, should have felt ashamed about something.

[207] I just always felt like that.

[208] I guess it proves that kids, they don't, they're not born with perfect self -esteem.

[209] They do need that to be fostered and poured into and nourished or else there can be an absolute, one thing is there doesn't have to be something that happened that proved you weren't good enough, but there could just be maybe something that didn't happen that proved you were.

[210] And I think there's all these, little micro things that can happen.

[211] You know, you're not chosen for something or you're not, you're always at the back at the side or, you know, you're not ever the star or just all these little things or no one ever thought you'd make it or be anything.

[212] And just like little things, little comments people would say or something.

[213] And then, yeah, and then that all just adds up.

[214] And you're 13, 14, you're in school, you're shy.

[215] At this point, I'm guessing.

[216] you have that struggle with feeling like you're good enough.

[217] I think that's maybe a symptom of the shyness.

[218] Yeah, yeah.

[219] And also, like, I was just very average looking.

[220] I had, like, a snaggle tooth.

[221] What's the snaglet tooth?

[222] It's like basically a deformity, like a deformed tooth, like on one side, which I've had fixed now.

[223] But kind of like a fang, I guess.

[224] But only on one side, so it wasn't like some cool vampire thing.

[225] And then I had that.

[226] And I was so painfully shy where I'd go ready.

[227] in the face if a teacher asked me to answer a question in class.

[228] Even though I knew the answer, it was just, it was so embarrassing and I didn't have any friends.

[229] And I guess because I thought, well, why would people want to be friends with me?

[230] I'm not good looking or popular or cool in any way.

[231] And so I just, yeah, it was really, that was like one of the darkest times, like when I'm like 13, 14.

[232] And like, you know, people are kind of big.

[233] coming themselves at that point.

[234] And then I read this article in the library that said that what your personality is at 15 will be your personality for life.

[235] Because I used to eat my lunches in the library just by myself.

[236] So I was reading stuff all the time.

[237] And then I read this and I went, like I'm so close to 15.

[238] If I don't change, this is going to be me forever.

[239] And can I imagine my life like not expressing anything to anybody, just like being just shy and introverted and isolated and I just knew I didn't want that that wouldn't have been the happy life for me and not that there's anything wrong with being shy like a shy sometimes can be like a superpower you observe people and you know you learn a lot by observing but then I just was like no I want to have friends and I want to have fun and be popular and so I was like oh well I better get a move on and luckily I found those motivational tapes and then And then they helped me because I thought I want to be somebody that expresses myself.

[240] Like literally you'd look at me and I sometimes see it in my niece now.

[241] I think she has a similar thing.

[242] And it's almost like you wouldn't be able to register anything that's going on.

[243] You wouldn't know if I'd had a good day or a bad day.

[244] It'd just be like no expression or anything.

[245] And then I was like, okay, I'm going to force myself to like come out of my.

[246] little cocoon or my shell or whatever the metaphor is and just break out.

[247] And with the help of those tapes and like it having a strategy and how to do it.

[248] What was the strategy?

[249] There were all sorts of things.

[250] But I remember from that How to Win Friends and Influence people, there was something about talking to five new people every day.

[251] And so that was one of the first things I did.

[252] And like talking to girls on the bus or just, you know, walking up through the school gates and talk, just talking to the person next to me and saying hi.

[253] And what you realize is that there's other people as lonely and as isolated as what you are.

[254] And that might have been the highlight of their day to speak to somebody new.

[255] And, you know, instead of just sitting in the library all day waiting for friends to find me, which they never would, why don't I actively go out and join like other sport teams or other clubs at the school and like actively try to make friends?

[256] Like it's not just going to happen if you're just doing nothing.

[257] So there were these little tips and strategies, but one of which was to get attention, which was to be essentially to be naughty, to get attention.

[258] It's kind of like that Eminem the rapper, if he hadn't have put out all these songs that were like really controversial and had, you know, outrageous things in them, would he have been a successful rapper, probably not.

[259] And so it was kind of like I then had to do some dodgy things at school to get known, to get like a reputation, which was against my natural personality, because I was such a good little girl.

[260] But I had to do things, outrageous thing, to get attention.

[261] And then that led to popularity.

[262] And then once you have the popularity, you don't need to do that stuff.

[263] But Is there some kind of a link there between you, the career you would then pursue as an actress, as a performer, a comedian, all of those things, and this sort of early desire to have attention and validation from, you know, your peers?

[264] I think it started from just like a more normal thing about wanting to have friends and wanting to be invited to some parties.

[265] and so it started from that and like and then you wanted to be respected but then to be respected people first have to know who you are and so sometimes you have to do that attention seeking behavior to get that but but the how I got into like acting was really well my mum dragged me into it because I mean the studies on that creative arts can really help your self -esteem and self -confidence.

[266] It's like insane.

[267] Like it's really good for young people who are struggling.

[268] And my mum could see me like struggling and having no friends.

[269] And so mum takes me to these drama classes at this community centre and literally has to drag me out of the car.

[270] I'm holding onto the car door with my fingernails.

[271] Like going, no, no, no. I don't want to go.

[272] It's so traumatic.

[273] But she was doing it not because she wanted me to become an actor.

[274] like we don't have any professional entertainers in the family, like, you know, nobody I know was in the business or whatever.

[275] At that point, it was more to help my self -confidence and self -esteem through the creative arts.

[276] And weirdly, it really did because when you're shy like I was to play different characters, it's like an escape because it's not really me, it's a different character.

[277] and then you can perform as that person and then eventually some of that confidence starts coming to you, the real you, from doing that.

[278] But obviously at the time, nobody thought I would become a professional actress or they would have laughed about that scenario.

[279] It's interesting because you can see these different drives forming within you.

[280] You've got this drive for, I don't know, you might say for validation externally, but then because you come from a family that didn't have money, there's also where you were rewarded for academic success or being successful at something.

[281] There's also this drive to be successful, which shows up in early in your story when you start selling things and buying things, and then you do exceptionally well in school.

[282] You go off to boarding school, it's sort of 16 years old.

[283] I think in part it sounds like to escape from the childhood, the household dynamics of your father and your mother.

[284] Yeah.

[285] You do exceptionally well there as well.

[286] exceptionally well and then you end up in Africa, South Africa.

[287] I know.

[288] Which is like a random.

[289] So, you know, a lot of people do the gap year thing and I mean, it's random.

[290] But basically I was a witness in a major crime squad investigation when I was in my final year of school.

[291] I'd witness something and had to testify.

[292] And then through that, some people were very impressed with my ability.

[293] to go and do that in a case.

[294] And so I was like, and they told me about this program that was a rotary program and it was called a Youth Ambassador program.

[295] And basically they wanted young people who were very good at public speaking.

[296] And by this point, I'd done, I'd forced myself to do debating in public speaking and I'd to get over my shyness.

[297] And so I was quite a good speaker.

[298] And I got recommended into this program and got selected.

[299] And you don't get to choose what country you go to.

[300] They just select for you.

[301] So, and they sent one boy and one girl from our district over to different countries.

[302] And I got given South Africa.

[303] And I was like, cool, because I thought it was going to be like the Lion King first, which was one of my favorite movies.

[304] And then I go rock up to South Africa a few years post -apartheid.

[305] And I, It was so different to Australia.

[306] Like, Australia is very safe.

[307] Johannesburg had the highest rape and murder rate in the world at that time.

[308] And there were guns everywhere and barbed wire fences and, you know, attack dogs.

[309] And it was like, it was so eye -opening.

[310] But then to also be constantly aware of the violence.

[311] And like I had to carry a little, like a wooden baton.

[312] like what you see like an old policeman in a cartoon would carry because I literally, if somebody attacked me I'd have to hit them on the head with it and it was like, I was like, this is crazy, like there was so much going on that year and but that's how I got the malaria which forced me to have this vision that I was to become an actress and I think if I'd never ever gone to Africa I never would have had that life -changing vision and I probably just would have gone back to law school and being a lawyer in Australia.

[313] Me and you both share that in common.

[314] We both were in Africa and got bitten by mosquito.

[315] Did you have a vision?

[316] I had a vision.

[317] What was your vision?

[318] So I, my dad was holding, so we're in our house and they didn't know that I had malaria.

[319] This is what my dad and my mum tell me. I was very young.

[320] They were holding me here.

[321] And I was, I'd woken up in the night because I said there was a man by my bed.

[322] So they'd picked me up.

[323] thinking like, oh my God, there's this man in his bedroom.

[324] And when my dad was holding me like this so I can see over his shoulder, the man would be behind him.

[325] And I was freaking out that there's a man behind him, which I later would call the Shadow Man and wrote a little novel about when I was about 14.

[326] And this Shadow Man, because I was losing my mind, they took me to hospital.

[327] And at hospital, they found out that I had malaria.

[328] But in hindsight, they tell the story that that man saved my life.

[329] You know what I mean?

[330] So I grew up very, I grew up with this idea that I had a guardian angel.

[331] Oh, the Shadow Man. But it was just malaria and hallucinations.

[332] Yeah, well, like, I guess...

[333] Tell me about your hallucinations.

[334] I had a nasty strain of malaria and it was put in hospital.

[335] And, you know, malaria is so different.

[336] I don't know whether you remember because of how old you, but it felt like, it felt like I was not in my body and then they take me into hospital and give me these drugs.

[337] And then I just started hallucinating.

[338] And I hallucinated that I was an actress and I was so good that I win an Academy Award.

[339] And I must have, I mean, I'd seen the Oscars on TV.

[340] I'd obviously never been.

[341] And then I just walked down the, and it was so real.

[342] Like, I could see all the people with the dresses and I get up on stage.

[343] And then I give an acceptance rap rather than an acceptance speech because I thought, oh, yeah, that's hardcore.

[344] And at one point, I had wanted to be a rapper because of their coolness and swagger.

[345] It didn't work out for me, luckily.

[346] But my little rap group with my sister, yeah, didn't work out.

[347] And it was so vivid and real, like I could, like I can still remember it.

[348] And then I came out of hospital, I was in hospital for two weeks.

[349] I came out and I was like, I think I've got to become an actress now.

[350] I've had this vision.

[351] And people go, no, like the malaria has affected your brain.

[352] They're just like, they thought I was nuts.

[353] Like they thought I was crazy.

[354] And they go, no, I've seen it.

[355] And they're like, no, no, no. Like, you've got into the best law school in Australia, like, maybe go to law school and have a great career.

[356] And I'm like, nah, I've seen it.

[357] And I think I need to be an actress now.

[358] And then I left South Africa a month earlier.

[359] I was supposed to be there a full 12 months.

[360] I left a month earlier to audition for a drama school in Australia, which I got rejected because obviously I was terrible.

[361] And nobody looked at me and go, actress.

[362] Nobody.

[363] So, um...

[364] Yeah, and it still took, I think, from that vision five years until I really got it, you could make money from acting.

[365] But it was like the vision came to me and I watched a lot of Oprah and Oprah was like, well, the universe will tell you like, first it'll come in little whispers and then it'll be like bricks falling on you.

[366] And I was like, but see, I've had the vision.

[367] I have to do acting now.

[368] In hindsight.

[369] Yeah.

[370] Was that a malaria hallucination or was it divine intervention?

[371] I don't know.

[372] I think was that some subconscious desire that I was never brave enough to say to anybody?

[373] Because I was in the high school musicals and plays, you know, in the musicals.

[374] I was like never cast as the lead or whatever.

[375] But I really enjoyed it.

[376] Like I really did enjoy it.

[377] And so, but I just never thought.

[378] someone like me could have a career in that area.

[379] So I was like, was that just a subconscious desire that just decided to come out when I was deathly ill?

[380] Or was it some kind of, I don't know, some higher power or something showing me that this was more my purpose?

[381] Because I remember a lot thinking that time, like, what is my purpose?

[382] Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?

[383] And I'd write in my little diary, you know, like, but again, I watched a lot of Oprah.

[384] So I was like, you know, what's my purpose?

[385] How can I give back?

[386] to people.

[387] Those are those motivational tapes as well.

[388] Yeah, probably.

[389] So you go back to Australia, you pursue law, I guess, for the money.

[390] You just thought that was a good...

[391] Well, because my father had dropped out, I definitely wanted to have a college degree.

[392] And he always said that was his biggest regret that he never got his business degree.

[393] And because I had got, I was so hard to get into this law school, it almost had to be near perfect in all your exams.

[394] So I just thought, I may as well just do it as well.

[395] trying to impress either one of them more than the other?

[396] Oh, my mom just wanted her dream for me was to be normal, I guess.

[397] Like, you know, to have friends, to kind of have a, you know, relationship and be kind of normal.

[398] So it's not like she definitely didn't want me to be some kind of a known public person.

[399] Sometimes the oldest sibling, you're the oldest of before, right?

[400] It's a bit of a reflection of, more so of a reflection, I think, of what the parents wanted for themselves.

[401] I tend to think that's a bit of her.

[402] So I'm wondering if you're like designed.

[403] for success and validation or if it was something that you felt from your father like you know him he couldn't be that himself so maybe he reflected but more praise on you when you were objectively successful in the things that you did um why would you want to be a lawyer is yeah i just because if you were smart you'd go into law or medicine yeah um and and so you know and they would have loved to have gone around and said you know oh my daughter's a lawyer at this firm and that would have been a great, you know, great career that they would have thought my parents had to work really hard to send me to the school that I did, like at one point, apart from selling all the dog products.

[404] My dad was also working at the gas station overnight and, you know, just to afford my school uniforms and stuff like that.

[405] So for them, a successful outcome would have been, okay, she got into the top law school and now she's going to be a lawyer and therefore all that money spent on education was worth it.

[406] And you go back, you do end up qualifying as a lawyer.

[407] Yeah.

[408] Um, you become a lawyer.

[409] It did take me 10 years though.

[410] It's normally a five year double degree and I did arts as well.

[411] Why did it take so long?

[412] Because you're acting.

[413] So basically, yeah.

[414] So I would, I'd be in theatre shows at first and then it would be TV shows.

[415] And my law school had an 80 % attendance rule.

[416] So basically, if I started in a semester and then for some reason my filming schedule or whatever, I'd have to repeat the subject because if I didn't attend in person 80 % at the time.

[417] So it was exhausting.

[418] Often I would fly, have to fly into state.

[419] I'd be filming in another state.

[420] I have to get up at 4 a .m. in the morning and fly to Sydney to law school and then fly all the way back that night.

[421] From the first time you did whatever you class as like an acting gig or tried to be an actress to the moment when you feel like you had made it.

[422] How many years is that?

[423] So I started quite late, I guess.

[424] I started like 18 turning 19, which is quite late, I think.

[425] A lot of people start.

[426] Kids.

[427] Yeah, 12, 13, I guess.

[428] And then that was like proper acting classes, like, proper, like, with people wanting to do it as a career.

[429] And then I had, I wrote my first play at 21.

[430] I just wrote it in two nights.

[431] And then it won this playwriting competition and got put on.

[432] and I was like, holy crap.

[433] And then a television station gave me $90 ,000 to put it on professionally, which was like kind of insane, great luck for the first thing I'd ever written.

[434] And I realized from that point, nobody saw me as an actor.

[435] I wasn't like Nicole Kidman or that, you know, in that vein.

[436] So I realized pretty quick I had to write myself my own material if I was going to make it.

[437] but I didn't start earning a professional, like a full -time wage, until I was a regular on a TV show at 23.

[438] At what point in this journey towards being an actress do you realize that your weight is influencing how people see you and the way that they're casting you?

[439] So when I was like about 21 into like 22, I had something called PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, and one of the key signifiers of that was like rapid weight gain.

[440] So all of a sudden, I mean, when I first started acting, I was just a regular size, a bit athletic looking, but, you know, pretty regular.

[441] And then all of a sudden I gained 30 kilos and was like, and I had some other symptoms as well.

[442] I had like some dark hair on my arms.

[443] And there's a couple of key.

[444] signifiers to it and then I went to the doctors and I said oh yeah you've got PCOS and in that first play that I'd written when I was 21 I'd cast a girl who was bigger than you know quite a large girl and then I noticed on stage like she'd get way more laughs than me and I kind of wrote all the roles quite evenly and I was like why is that girl getting getting more laughs and I honestly thought I mean well one she's hilarious but it's because she's bigger and people like laughing at bigger people.

[445] And then I did this subject at university called Comedy and Power.

[446] And basically, you know, there is a science to, if you normally, if you want to sleep with somebody, you're not normally wanting to laugh at them.

[447] So, you know, if you want to sleep with someone, you're into them, attracted to them.

[448] But normally the people that you want to laugh at are people that have some kind of immediate physical irregularity.

[449] Like, you you know, bigger women do do well in comedy.

[450] You might be really tall, really sure.

[451] You might have a really big nose.

[452] Something about you that's quite distinctive, that people can instantly go, uh -huh, you know.

[453] And they, in more in comedy, the science of it is more people want to be your friend rather than, they don't want to be your lover.

[454] They want to be your friend.

[455] And they think, you know, you'd be good to hang out with and have a laugh with.

[456] And so it was really interesting when I gained all this weight, I was like, ah, I think I'm going to lean into comedy because even though I'd tried to be a serious actress at first, I was like, hang on, this which could be seen as a huge negative, a lot of people would be going, oh, no, you know, I put on all this weight.

[457] Instead, I went the opposite way and was like, no, I could use this to my advantage.

[458] I like comedy, I think I should go into comedy and use being bigger as just, you know, a good tool in my comedy toolbox.

[459] And then that was kind of reinforced, I guess, because then people laugh harder and then they pay you more.

[460] And it is true.

[461] It is true.

[462] People like laughed more.

[463] And I lent into comedy.

[464] And then I got a scholarship from Nicole Kidman to go to New York.

[465] And I went to Second City Comedy School in New York at the time.

[466] And yeah, and then I just realized I had quite a good knack for it, and that was taking off more than the dramatic acting.

[467] How did you feel about yourself at that time?

[468] Well, I guess I was quite shocked in my diaries when I looked back at them for research for the book.

[469] Even when I was 16 and I wasn't big at all, I was very athletic, played lots of different sports.

[470] and my first goal was like to lose two kilos, I guess because my mum had made a comment at some point, not for any bad reasons, she just, you know, thought she had weight issues herself and just thought, you know, if I lost those two kilos, I might feel better in myself or something like that.

[471] And so I just, when I gained all that weight, there's kind of a dichotomy because at one point, I'm like, this could help me professionally in comedy and, you know, big girls do better in comedy.

[472] I can see a pigeonhole for myself in that area and you can be successful.

[473] And I'd just gotten on a television show when I was 23 playing kind of the, I guess, the whale character is what they sometimes referred to me as.

[474] They'd refer you as the whale character.

[475] Yeah, well, like, I was the obese girlfriend of one of the guys who he was embarrassed to go out with me. So the whole joke was like he was trying to hide me because he didn't want people to know I was in a relationship because I was obese and that was the whole.

[476] It was a very popular show in Australia.

[477] It's called Fat Pizza.

[478] And so on the one hand there's that.

[479] But then on the other hand, I felt like I knew I was eating very badly.

[480] I mean, my diet at that point was just carbs pretty much.

[481] I remember coming to New York and going to comedy school and, you know, and just eating a pint of ice cream for dinner or a whole big bag of chips or something.

[482] And then, and I, so on the one hand, I could be confident and know that this could be good for me career -wise, but on the other hand, I knew I'm not treating myself right.

[483] This is not good.

[484] You know, I'm not being healthy.

[485] And so I had both going on in my mind at the same time.

[486] How do you play a role in a movie, that fat pizza movie, where you're basically a, someone, something's, somebody that somebody else is embarrassed about, and how does that not impact your self -esteem at some level?

[487] Because I'm thinking if I was playing in a movie, someone, an individual that someone was trying to hide.

[488] The thing is like, because when it's acting, it's not quite you.

[489] and only on a rare occasion would people confuse, like, because obviously the guys on the show were pretty great and respectful off -camera and everything.

[490] That was just the character I was playing, and I was lucky to be on a comedy show and to be earning money that way.

[491] But then I remember going to a post office and just like mailing a letter, and the guy was obviously a fan of the show.

[492] And so I was saying, Oh, Tula, that was my character name.

[493] Oh, he's so fast.

[494] And, like, he in real life was saying stuff like the guys on the show, but this is now real life.

[495] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[496] And it was very hurtful in real life, whereas for acting, it's, you know, you kind of can separate it a little bit.

[497] What did you say to him that day, that post office person?

[498] I didn't say anything.

[499] I just kind of walked down and thought, oh, that guy's an idiot.

[500] He doesn't understand the distinction between a comedy show and, you know, a real person.

[501] And so that was just a bit hurt.

[502] it for.

[503] But I guess it must.

[504] But then, on the other hand, it's hard to feel sorry for myself because then, obviously not in Australia, but then when I came to America and played like Fat Amy, which is probably my most famous character, I mean, now I'm making millions of dollars from playing the fat, funny girl and really leaning into that.

[505] And so.

[506] And what do you care about more than millions of dollars?

[507] or the, you know what I mean?

[508] Well, now I care about my health and well -being.

[509] But back then, I guess, I thought, oh, well, I'm becoming successful, and this is helping me become successful.

[510] I think this is really at the heart of what your book takes on is the idea that, you know, we can become, quote -unquote, successful in the eyes of the world.

[511] But that doesn't necessarily mean we're successful holistically.

[512] in all the things that we need to be successful.

[513] And I relate to that so much because of the things we've described about being driven and dragged and all that stuff, I think I became successful in one of maybe the 10 things that I needed to be to be like rounded as a person.

[514] Yeah.

[515] And anomalies like you that achieve such great success, often there's a trade -off.

[516] Yeah, so I felt like I needed like Olympic athlete dedication to make it in the entertainment business.

[517] I mean, the odds of making it are so small.

[518] one to make it in my home country and then to come to Hollywood and to make it, the odds are millions to one, really, of having their career that I've had.

[519] So, you know, like an Olympic gymnast, if you meet people, and they're like incredible gymnastics.

[520] But then you talk to them about their personal life or their skills.

[521] And then basically you can tell their...

[522] like stunted, I guess, is the right word.

[523] So they've had this drive and this focus and they've achieved and they've, if they're an athlete, you know, they get to the Olympics or, or to me like, I've been in an Oscar nominated movie, I haven't won, obviously, the vision hasn't come true, but was I stumped?

[524] I was like, if you really knew me, you'd know that, yeah, I hadn't been out on a date until my early 30s.

[525] I hadn't had that intimate experiences and relationships.

[526] And so all that area of my life, like, wasn't great.

[527] But I was like the most successful person to ever come out of my high school.

[528] Or, you know, so, like, there were great things.

[529] I could go courtside at the L .A. Lakers games or, you know, like, there were awesome stuff.

[530] But then there was like, yeah, on a personal side, I wasn't the best person.

[531] And then I, then I knew that.

[532] I knew, oh, God, okay, so I've excelled in one area, but now there's others that I'm, like, quite lacking in.

[533] And the other area was, apart from love life and kind of social life was also health.

[534] You move through America.

[535] You get, you work very hard for the next couple of years.

[536] You get this, you know, this opportunity.

[537] bridesmaid, which then takes some time for it to come out.

[538] I read in your book that you got paid $3 ,500 for your role in bridesmaid, which is quite shocking.

[539] Yeah, that was my first job in America.

[540] And, I mean, it was very lucky to get it.

[541] I mean, what an awesome cracker of a movie to get that.

[542] But to be paid that little.

[543] And basically that $3 ,500, I then had to pay to the union to join the union.

[544] So I basically made no money.

[545] I lost money because I had to pay to go to the premiere, like to buy my dress.

[546] and everything.

[547] So I lost money doing bridesmaids.

[548] But, and then you have to wait, it normally takes a whole year when you film a movie for the movie to be released.

[549] So that was a really skint year where I was living on $60 a week in L .A. once I'd paid my rent and my car hire.

[550] And that's not a lot of money.

[551] So like I wasn't partying or living, living this life.

[552] It was basically just having that focus trying to write for myself, like going to auditions and And I had to wait a whole year until Brides and Mays came out and then suddenly it comes out as this big hit and I booked six movies off the back of it, one of which was pitch perfect which was kind of my real golden ticket that movie and became the highest grossing musical comedy franchise of all time Yes.

[553] And there was...

[554] Yeah, very, very successful and very, very awesome fun movies to be a part of so they're like such a gift to those movies.

[555] Your life changes at that point because you're sort of globally, internationally famous now.

[556] And surely that means job done.

[557] We can, we can chill, we can go look at other things.

[558] And I say this because there's so many people, me being probably one of them, that maybe told ourselves in the past that once we hit the pitch perfect, the global smash hit success, then we'll chill.

[559] Then you'll be happy.

[560] And then it'll be fine.

[561] But then of course, then you come up with some different goals that I'm like, it's even harder.

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[577] A real pivotal moment and turning point in your life is clearly when you went to that doctor that day after deciding that you wanted to have a child?

[578] Mm -hmm.

[579] Yeah.

[580] Why did you decide you wanted to have a child?

[581] Was there an influence, something you'd seen or something?

[582] I guess I never thought, because I was so career -driven, I thought, you know, I'd never thought I would want to have a family.

[583] And also being in my business, it was so egocentric, the business.

[584] And so I just didn't think that was in the cards for me. And I also thought, oh, well, I'm probably never going to find a partner or whatever.

[585] And then I was just like this biological clock inside me when it in my late 30s just started like ticking really loudly.

[586] And I kind of say it's like in Peter Pan that crocodile that has the clock inside it.

[587] It was just like, like you can hear it going tick, tick, tick.

[588] I was like, do it now.

[589] Like otherwise it'll be too late.

[590] And I would see babies on the street with their mom.

[591] and be like, oh, and I just like, because you keep staring at all the babies.

[592] And just like, I just really felt this urge inside me to be a mother.

[593] And even though I didn't have a partner at that point, and I just was like, I think I should try.

[594] But I was getting, I was like 39 years old.

[595] And I didn't even know that I had eggs or what could be done.

[596] And then I went to the fertility doctor.

[597] And by this point, like, I'm living this really large, you know, I am medically obese, but I'm living this kind of amazing life.

[598] I traveled the world.

[599] I learned how to have fun and not be so much of a workaholic.

[600] And I was like, you know, like that Lizzo song, like, it's bad, bitch, a clock.

[601] Like, that was like my life.

[602] Like, I'm walking around, just loving it.

[603] I've been successful now.

[604] And then the doctor looks me up and down and goes, yeah, but.

[605] you're not healthy and he said you have a much better chance of having a baby if you were healthy and the way he said it with like kind of quite a lot of disdain in his voice i was like huh because that's that was a stranger most people you know in Hollywood they're not going to come up to you and go oh you're engaging in bad you know eating habits obviously like um they're just like oh congratulations on your new movie and yay it's great play Fat Amy and that's awesome and how successful it's been.

[606] I don't think so.

[607] He wasn't in my demographic.

[608] He looked a bit like the doctor from Doc from Back to the Future.

[609] Okay, yeah.

[610] Older guy with white, wiry hair.

[611] So, yeah, I don't think he was in the picture perfect fan base.

[612] And he just set it straight to my face and then I go, oh, I'm not healthy.

[613] And I knew deep down, I just suppressed those feelings, but I knew deep down I wasn't healthy, but I didn't have any serious diseases.

[614] I was doing incredible things all around the world.

[615] So I just didn't.

[616] And then he said that and like it really sunk in.

[617] It was like this criticism that was, I couldn't ignore.

[618] And I was like, oh, God, okay, yeah, he is right.

[619] And I'm not healthy.

[620] because on the one hand I'm like a beacon of body positivity because I really do think beauty is at any size and had grown so much self -confidence by that point but then on the other hand I knew I was engaging in unhealthy eating behaviours and that was something I wanted to improve in myself and then I thought well the next year 2020 I'll make the whole year about getting healthy Like I said, I'm not going to work.

[621] Weirdly, I couldn't have predicted that a pandemic was going to happen.

[622] I'd already planned not to work that year and to take a whole year to do health stuff.

[623] You get back in the car after that doctor visit and you describe kind of what's going on in your brain.

[624] But as you said, you know, at that point, you know you weren't healthy deep down, deep down.

[625] Yeah.

[626] Everyone kind of knows, you know.

[627] You know, we all know.

[628] If you aren't medically obese, you kind of know that.

[629] But it's hard to get from there to taking any action.

[630] It's really hard to change behaviour in such way.

[631] Yes, especially because I, yes, had I tried to go on diets, had I gone on diets, had I gone to like a little health farm and, you know, lost five, seven pounds in a week, and then you never sustain it, and then it goes back up.

[632] So I'd like, it's not like I'd never tried.

[633] I just never thought because always the weight would come back on and that was just my homeostasis or whatever for my body was like at 102 kilos and that's kind of just how it was.

[634] And I was like, oh, well, I could never permanently change that.

[635] I just thought, nah, I can get two degrees from university and become an international movie star, but I just can't, like, with the weight, I was like, I can't, like, just, you know, I don't know, I'm just not right in that area.

[636] I'll never be healthy in that way.

[637] And that one comment from that stranger Yeah, it was something in the way he said it And I was like, Shuka, I'm not like I'm not healthy And that must be what a lot of people thought They just never said it to my face And then it was kind of the motivation Almost not really for myself and my health But for a future child that I thought, well, now I've got to fix this and work really hard to do it because I tried so many times, I don't know, 20 times or whatever in the past, but it always only lasted a short term and then I was like, well, okay, but this is different because now the motivations to have a child.

[638] So that's like a different motivating factor.

[639] You want to have a child, this doctor says you'll have a better chance if you're healthy, you leave there that day, you must also have it in the back of your mind that people are paying you millions and millions of millions of dollars.

[640] I think around that time that year you'd made like $20 million in movies or whatever.

[641] They're paying you because you fit this persona that they won.

[642] Yeah.

[643] So as soon as I started telling people in my team about this, they're like, oh, no, no, no, why would you want to lose weight?

[644] Like that?

[645] No, I wouldn't.

[646] If I was you, I wouldn't do that.

[647] Because then you lose your multimillion dollar pigeonhole that you've so successfully created.

[648] And look at all the work you've done to get that.

[649] that.

[650] And now you're just going to throw it away.

[651] So I was then literally like, okay, what do I do with my life?

[652] I get healthy, but I lose my career, or do I just stay the way I am and maybe never have a child?

[653] And like, that was literally kind of how it was positioned to me. And so even though literally everyone around me pretty much said, stay as you are, I just felt like, nah.

[654] I got to, I think I know deep down that I'm engaging in unhealthy behaviours and I'm going to, I'm going to work on my health and try to have a child thinking at that point, I know it sounds implicitly, but thinking that my career could be over then.

[655] But I was like, no, it's too, that's too important.

[656] Going on that journey, losing the weight and all those kinds of things, is never a straight line.

[657] Yeah, it was, I mean, the pandemic helped a lot because literally, everything stopped and and I could just focus, focus on being healthy.

[658] That became a big blessing to me and when I really focused and did the emotional work because there's things like that I write about in the book that I just never thought about until I started emotionally processing things.

[659] Did one of your contracts say I think it was pitch perfect say that you couldn't lose 10 pounds of weight contractually.

[660] Yeah, so that's like quite common.

[661] You can't drastically change your appearance.

[662] So that's pretty much in all acting contracts.

[663] It's not just about weight.

[664] It's about your hair, you know, what you look like.

[665] And you can't go, you know, too much either side.

[666] That's basically because sometimes in films you have to do reshoots or sometimes, you know, they might want to do a sequel or something.

[667] And so you kind of have to stay the same.

[668] So literally like, I have to ask somebody if I'd want to cut my hair right now to a different color or style or whatever it's just it's just a thing in the business because you could be asked to do a reshoot on a film a year later you have to kind of look the same so this journey of losing weight tell me about this process what helped you so i was like as you can probably tell like i'm quite goal orientated and uh and so i was like okay 2020 it's going to be my year of health i'm themed it i'm going to put it on instagram so i'm like held responsible, you know, the other times it would be a bit more private, like, okay, I'm going to go to this health farm or whatever.

[669] And I'm like, okay, it's going to be my year of health and I'm just going to focus on being healthy.

[670] And the thing, Anne Hathaway introduced me to this doctor who was great, because I guess she saw me on a film we did together called The Hustle and she kind of saw me struggling.

[671] And his specialty was kind of dwelling into emotional emotions and how they can affect your physical health.

[672] And I never even thought about that.

[673] Like I just thought, you know, going on a diet's about eating less and exercising more.

[674] And I just never thought.

[675] But to me, because I was an emotional eater, really the kicker was to process emotions and to learn how to process emotions.

[676] And obviously, from my family environment, I had definitely not learned any skills.

[677] in that area and was kind of holding onto everything, like a bag of groceries of this little trauma and this and they are holding onto it.

[678] And so I had to start processing that with the doctor, like we did a phone call every two weeks.

[679] And at first it's awful.

[680] You're like, oh my God, what do I talk about, you know, and talk about my personal things.

[681] And it felt awful to do it at first and then I did it and then gradually it kind of I started processing things and then I could release them the emotions and then and then the weight loss kind of came but because I wasn't working I did do crazy workouts like I was working out like two hours two and a half hours a day to help you know to help accelerated I was cooking my own meals I was you know, concentrating on eating high protein meals and like I was just doing all the right things because I didn't have any stress of work and, um, and I was just like, okay, this is going to be it, but the real thing was the emotional.

[682] What are those bags that you let go of emotionally?

[683] I think a lot of it, like I don't think I would have been able to write this book if I hadn't have done that emotional work with the doctor because, um, there were just stuff that I suppressed, you know, a lot of stuff.

[684] about my father and my complicated relationship with him and the sadness of him dying.

[685] He suddenly had a heart attack and died right, you know, close after Pitch Perfect One came out.

[686] And I think just all these little things in my childhood that, you know, I just, I guess I never thought that that was associated with my way.

[687] but it obviously was, and because I hadn't processed the things, it was like I was holding onto barriers.

[688] It was like the weight was a barrier, one for like intimacy, for example, you know, I never wanted a relationship or wanted to be attractive or whatever.

[689] And the weight was kind of a barrier because that kept all the people away.

[690] Do you believe that?

[691] I've heard that from psychologists a few times, even on this podcast before, I've heard one particular guy called Johann Hari, who wrote a book called Lost Connections, tell me that in a study, where they looked at women who were clinically obese, and then they put them through a weight loss program, they found that some of the women would then regain weight, and the catalyst for that was then being hit on.

[692] They discovered in those women that there was early sort of abuse or there was issues.

[693] So they made this link that sometimes we use weight as a defense from sort of sexual advances.

[694] And I definitely was because I wanted to be in the fat, funny friend role, which I played quite well in real.

[695] life and on screen because I didn't, you know, I didn't want somebody to be coming home with me and then seeing how I really lived or felt, you know.

[696] Why?

[697] I don't know.

[698] I guess I just was embarrassed or, yeah.

[699] Do you remember men or women hitting on you at any point in your 20s and then actively rejecting them?

[700] So I literally was like, some people like, but didn't anybody come up to you or whatever?

[701] I was like, no. I honestly don't remember one person, apart from the little boyfriend I had when I was 16, which was the most innocent thing ever where we just held hands and maybe kissed once.

[702] But anyways, when I got famous from Pitch Perfect, there was like a waiter at Chateau Marmont that like gave me his number and like, you know, basically said, you know, take me home with you tonight kind of thing.

[703] And I was shocked and I was there with my buddy Matt Lucas and I was like, what do I do with this?

[704] Like, it was kind of like the first attention.

[705] So only when I started like noticing any attention was when I became very successful.

[706] So that did, I almost felt like I was an invisible attractiveness -wise until that point.

[707] Did you tax the waiter?

[708] No, I didn't.

[709] But Matt goes, you should have.

[710] What are you doing?

[711] Go for it.

[712] And I go, Matt, no. Like, I was so shy in that area.

[713] I was like, I'm not just going to bring a waiter home from the Chateau Marmont.

[714] Weirdly, I get a lot of people from prison as well when I became famous.

[715] They'd like DM you and like go, oh, be my wife and all this stuff.

[716] I'm like, oh my God.

[717] But no, like I just, unless I was just so blocked off to that, I didn't notice anything.

[718] You know, when a woman in particular gets over 30, what I've heard, and especially considering some of my friends who are women over 30, is people around them sometimes start getting a bit pushy like their friends start you know come on rebel come on oh go for him I'll give him a chance yeah did you feel that sort of external pressure at all from people really my father would always say oh on the limited times we'd talk oh are you seeing anybody I'd always get so angry at that question I'd like why is he asking me that is if I'd want to get married like him and my mum were and how terrible that was and I'd always just get angry at it and just be like no and just like I don't know it just shut down about that issue is it because it came from him he was yeah in particular and I was like oh god what like out of all the people to say something most people didn't didn't say anything but I know there is that pressure like for single women over 30 you just get like a little bit and But I felt it more in my later 30s.

[719] And I went on a dating app at one point to try to meet people.

[720] How did that go?

[721] Because I was like, well, I actually met some good people.

[722] In real life?

[723] Yeah, it was that dating app Raya that has some celebrities on it.

[724] They wouldn't let me on it.

[725] I tried when I was 18.

[726] I didn't have anything going on in my life.

[727] But I tried.

[728] And the problem is they...

[729] You would have been great.

[730] I think they give me a shot now.

[731] But back then, I submitted my application when I was like, So they're still looking at the same application and I'm still in the waiting list.

[732] But now I'm in a relationship and I don't need that.

[733] Yeah, you don't need it now.

[734] It's their loss.

[735] But I was, yeah, no, I went on and I, you know, dated a few great guys and actually had fun and it was good.

[736] But I had to, because I was so behind the eight ball on dating and love and relationships, like I had to almost like in my year of health, I had to do like a year of love experiment before.

[737] I did that before year of health.

[738] to like kind of put myself out there, which was hard and challenging.

[739] Like, it's awful, going on dates and you've got to get all dressed up and, you know, and then go and have it lunch or dinner with someone that you might not know whether there's any chemistry and you were a virgin up to 35.

[740] Yes, yeah, that's right, yeah.

[741] So going on those dates, is there anxiety in your brain?

[742] Because, you know, if this date goes well, there might be an expectation that I go to the bedroom with this individual.

[743] Yeah, well, that was all later.

[744] I mean, weirdly, the guy I lost my virginity to at 35, I was set up with.

[745] And I think part of why I think I might have been attractive was because I was in like a number one movie at the time and whatever.

[746] And that guy was like an awesome guy and I'd met him.

[747] And I'd waited so long at that point.

[748] I really wanted to lose my virginity to someone who I was really, really into.

[749] And I just, I really like this guy.

[750] I thought he was so funny.

[751] and cute and potentially like marriage material at the time I met him.

[752] And so when I did my Year of Love experiment, that was like a few years later.

[753] So obviously, I mean, I don't think I could have done it if I was still a virgin and going on all these dates because at least I had some experience by that point.

[754] But I dated like 50 people in the one year in 2019 to just get some, I don't know, like to find And, like, because I just was behind the eight ball.

[755] I'd never dated properly.

[756] Um, so I needed to get some experience in that area.

[757] And, and legitimately trying to find the one.

[758] But, um, yeah, it didn't, didn't quite work out.

[759] You mentioned that you experimented with a Zempec.

[760] Oh, I did.

[761] But I wish I'd known about it in 2020.

[762] It wasn't big then.

[763] No, I didn't even, if I had known about it, I would have tried it 100%.

[764] Um, but more for, uh, once I, had lost, like, 35 kilos, I was like, I can't continue working out and having this level of focus, like I can't.

[765] And I was very worried that the weight would come back on.

[766] And then now, like, I mean, now I have gained back 10 kilos or so because of, I guess, having a baby, I just can't work out in the level that I used to.

[767] And then I directed a movie, which was a lot of sitting on a chair all day long and being stressed, still stress eating.

[768] and which I'll get under control when I'm, you know, not working seven days a week.

[769] And so I have tried it for a few months for like weight management, I guess you'd call it.

[770] I definitely noticed that it did, I have like an unlimited ability to eat sweets and chocolate and ice cream and stuff.

[771] And that drug helped for me not to feel full, whereas I wouldn't feel like that before I would just could eat a ton of it, like, you know.

[772] So, so I actually, actually liked it, but yeah, I know, I think, I actually think for people like me, those drugs can be really effective, but obviously I'm not on it right now, but maybe if I, you know, prescribed it by a doctor, I'd go back on it.

[773] When you lose weight, your resonance with your audience changes as well.

[774] Mm -hmm.

[775] Because I think Adele spoke to it as well.

[776] And when she lost a lot of weight, there was a backlash.

[777] Yeah.

[778] I mean, I think there was some people going, oh, she won't be funny anymore.

[779] But then I had this movie come out senior year where I play a cheerleader who went into a coma and then wakes up 20 years later.

[780] And that was my first big comedy.

[781] And it got something like 89 million unique Netflix accounts watch it in the first 10 days around the world, which was huge, huge numbers.

[782] So I was like, oh, well, I think they're probably, people are wrong about that I won't be funny anymore.

[783] But did they feel let down?

[784] I think some people did.

[785] It's like, say, if you're in a family and your sibling makes a change for the better, and then you feel like, oh, well, it makes me feel bad because I didn't make the change.

[786] And it makes me feel not as good about myself.

[787] So therefore, I'm going to hate them for changing.

[788] How dare they change?

[789] How dare they try to rise above?

[790] And I think there is some attitude.

[791] But then you think to those people, what would make them happy?

[792] You go like the John Candy way and you die of a heart attack or, you know, if something happens to you.

[793] Like, you get some serious, I mean, my father died of a heart attack with complications with diabetes.

[794] So I was like, I was heading towards the diabetes route if I kept going.

[795] And I was like, well, does that make those people happy?

[796] Or you just say as you are and be unhealthy and then you die prematurely.

[797] That's not a great outcome.

[798] Like, what do those people want?

[799] But I think as a comedian, you have so many different things in your toolkit.

[800] And mainly there are your personality.

[801] And so even though it's easy to go, oh, you have that physical irregularity and that's why people love, there are so many other elements.

[802] It's not as simplistic as that.

[803] And so I just utilize slightly different things.

[804] Have you noticed any change in the way that people book you professionally or respond to your professional, the roles you're given based on your...

[805] Well, now I do a lot more dramatic stuff.

[806] I mean, I'm still obviously doing the comedy stuff.

[807] I mean, I've just directed a movie, which is a big, huge new career step.

[808] But, yeah, I've got a movie coming out, The Armand and the Seahorse here in the UK, which is totally serious.

[809] And I just played Lady Capulet in a film, which is totally not what you think.

[810] I would do.

[811] And it's awesome, but it's kind of how I started my career doing Shakespeare and stuff before I was bigger.

[812] And so it's kind of coming back now to doing that kind of thing.

[813] But more I noticed, I mean, now I'm kind of in the middle because I'm like, I've gained back some weight.

[814] It was so weird to be someone who walks around the world kind of feeling a bit invisible um attractiveness wise and then suddenly i lost all this way and got so much positive validation like it was insane like people would open doors for you or carry your groceries to the car for you or offer to do something for you or whatever and i just it was so weird to experience that and i've experienced both sides of the coin like to be kind of being invisible in that area and then to be visible and it was it was bizarre it was like the attention and i was like oh is this what hot people feel or get all the time.

[815] And they get this kind of positive bias in society all the time.

[816] And I got such positive reinforcement for losing weight from the press and from people, like every single person would make some comment about it.

[817] And it's hard not to fall into liking that.

[818] And now I've just been too stressed being a director that I've kind of gone off the health bandwagon, but I will get back on it.

[819] 42 years old, you underwent IVF and you had your daughter, Royce.

[820] But it appears you're still a workaholic.

[821] You just said earlier about working seven days a week.

[822] I know.

[823] I've come off a nine -month marathon of seven days a week.

[824] I did an action film called Bridehart, directed my movie The Deb, written the book.

[825] And, yeah, so I'm about to have a holiday.

[826] What are you doing it for?

[827] Because you could, you know, you've got multiple houses all over the world, you've got huge success, you've done it, Rebel.

[828] I know, and my love life, there is a happy story to everyone listening.

[829] I have an amazing partner, Ramona, who's absolutely an incredible partner.

[830] And so that story had a happy ending as well.

[831] I just keep saying to people, oh, I'm going to retire now, you know.

[832] And then they're like, yeah, you'll have like two days off and then you'll have some idea for a movie.

[833] then you'll want to do it.

[834] So I think I'm always that little girl who at the dog shows was like reaching into bins to collect the aluminium cans to earn money because I felt like I didn't have anything because I didn't have any money.

[835] And so part of me is always that.

[836] I just have this drive to earn money.

[837] And that motivates me. And then it's weird.

[838] Like I achieve a goal.

[839] Like coming to America was just to be in one Hollywood move.

[840] but then you achieve it and then it's not enough and then you want you know and now like you know I'd like to win an Oscar or you know um have that level of success you know winning the Oscar's going to change Zilch I know probably not it's probably like there's a curse on some women that win the Oscars then they're sometimes their love life crumbles and they get no jobs for two years when after they win the Oscar sometimes it's like a curse you didn't see that in the hallucination what happened after no I didn't see that I just saw winning and feeling great about it.

[841] I mean, I definitely know I need a break over the summer and I will have fun times and I've learned how to have fun now because before, like in my 20s, I didn't even do that.

[842] I wouldn't even go on a holiday.

[843] I'd be like, no, I have to keep working hard.

[844] Are you concerned, and I'm asking this really for myself here because I think I am, are you concerned that you're going to look back later in life and go, do you know, I didn't have my priorities in order?

[845] Yeah, maybe.

[846] And so I think having my gorgeous daughter and looking at her, she makes me want to, like, not work as much.

[847] And I think, I didn't know how she was going to affect my life.

[848] And then now just knowing how much joy it is just to be around her and it makes me think less about myself and more about her and my family.

[849] And so from that level, I want to not work as much and I have to be a bit more selective.

[850] You, one of the things that I found And I have to say awesome.

[851] I'm just going to be honest with you in your book was, well, there's so many things.

[852] I love the pictures and the whole design of the book and how you weave humor into what I consider to be pretty important lessons of life.

[853] But, oh, you're holding up the redacted pages.

[854] There's pages that just have black lines through them, which means that you've basically removed those sections.

[855] Now you...

[856] Well, I didn't remove them.

[857] Okay, the publisher did.

[858] The UK publisher did.

[859] Because in the UK, the laws are different.

[860] here around what you can say about instances in your life.

[861] Yeah, and being a qualified lawyer, I know, you know, all about defamation laws.

[862] And it's a bit, the US is a bit more free speech in terms of defamation laws.

[863] And the UK and Australia have higher standards.

[864] This chapter is called Sasha Barakonin of other assholes.

[865] Now, obviously, I'm just going to take your lead on this.

[866] But this has been a huge story.

[867] And I saw on your Instagram, some Instagram posts.

[868] It's weird because the book is about my whole why, you know.

[869] And yet this particular chapter has gotten the most attention, I guess because I'm saying something negative about a male comedian, Sasha Baron Cohen, and in it describing like the worst professional experience of my career, which was 10 years ago now on a movie called Grimsby and working with him.

[870] And it was an experience that left me feeling, humiliated and degraded as a person.

[871] And so that chapter, I guess, because he's come out and denied it, it became a big story.

[872] What can you say about that experience?

[873] I can say why I wrote it and purely why it's redacted is because it's the publisher that gets sued and obviously they wouldn't want to get sued by somebody who's quite litigious so that's why they did that but the story is pretty much out there so you could easily kind of work out what I'm talking about in the book but I wanted to write it because my story is not one of you hear stories, terrible stories of assault and you know things in Hollywood mine is not that.

[874] It's more just kind of a shit situation at work that the 44 -year -old version of me would have left and would have said, oh, screw you, I'm out of here.

[875] I'm, you know, got enough self -esteem to leave and know this isn't a good situation for me. And then back then, I stayed in it and I did reshoots on the film because I didn't want to be seen as unprofessional and this was before the Me Too movement and even though I wasn't being treated great I just I thought oh well I have to be professional and I have to stay and finish it and it was a complicated situation we were both represented by the same agent at the time and there are a few things going on and and I guess I wrote it so that people, the more people talk about stuff like this, hopefully the less it happens.

[876] And then also just, I think I held shame because I went along with it.

[877] And it's such a fine line between what's comedy and what's playing a character and then really crossing the line into personal humiliation.

[878] And I think on that project, it did cross the line.

[879] And I felt shame that I actively went along with it.

[880] And so I guess writing it is kind of releasing the emotions I was holding onto for that.

[881] And I have no motivation.

[882] I mean, I write in the chapter.

[883] It's not about canceling somebody.

[884] It's just about it kind of goes to show why myself worth wasn't where it should have been.

[885] and I should have stood up for myself and that's hard and now the 44 -year -old version of me would handle things much, much differently and it's just, it was 10 years ago and it was hard to know what to do even though I'm a lawyer and I made the complaints and did what I could do at the time I now would act very differently.

[886] This is your life story.

[887] This is your memoir.

[888] Of all the experiences you've had, rebel.

[889] When you look back through all of these pages and all of these days and all of these sort of seasons of your life, was there a hardest moment?

[890] Oh, God.

[891] There's been so many hard moment.

[892] I think probably the darkest point in my life was when I was about 13.

[893] And, you know, you hit puberty and you feel all these emotions.

[894] And I felt, you know, unlovable, unworthy.

[895] My life wasn't going to be anything.

[896] And I was just isolated.

[897] We were living out in the bush at that point where we had like snakes come crawling on the back porch and bush rats and like I was just living like it just was such a dark time and that was probably the harder one of the hardest things what's next for rebel what's that well I'm still directing the movie because I've got all the technical elements to do now so that's a big new challenge and I've directed this very empowering musical that's very very joyful and I'm It's hilarious, so I'm very proud of that.

[898] And then I think, I don't know, I still have, because that vision was I won an Oscar and I haven't won one, so I'd like to do that.

[899] But then, you know, I would just like to be more of a mum who spends that quality time with their family and is, yeah, is that kind of person and not so striving.

[900] But I don't know, I always have this thing in me that I'm very driven and working hard and just always had that.

[901] But I would like to maybe let go of that.

[902] If you were to go back now to that 13 -year -old rebel, that was going through all of those sort of challenges in her mind, and you could tell something, say something to her, that word better equipped her for the next sort of 20 years to come because there's going to be lots of young women that are struggling with all the things you've described on young men.

[903] Oh yeah, and I know.

[904] know what it's like to feel invisible, to be so lonely, isolated, to just not feel like you have anything going for you.

[905] Like, I was just a pretty average.

[906] I mean, I was smart.

[907] I always had being smart, but like, it's average, no one really looked twice or thought twice about me. And, and I know what it's like, but it's, if you want to be determined and you want to change your life like you can, and you don't have to stay in that situation.

[908] Like, you can actively do things to make your life better and to make it more how you want.

[909] And I mean, at the time I just had to tell myself that.

[910] There was nobody around to tell me that.

[911] But to those young people out there, I just think you can, like you can actively take steps to do it.

[912] And a great thing is the creative arts, because, which can be so many different things like writing or painting or not just acting and being on a stage, all those things, because you might not know what your voice is or how to express yourself.

[913] And those kind of areas are so important because it can help you find your voice.

[914] And so I would say to like to try to encourage you to go into that, those kind of pursuits, even if it's just something you're doing in your bedroom with a notebook and you're writing song lyrics or you're writing a diary or something that form of creative expression can be really really useful and you're the prime example of that in many respects you went from being that extremely shy individual to the point as you say that people thought it was some kind of social disorder to being a Hollywood mega star you also went in the personal context you went from being someone who lost their virginity at 35 years old and wasn't in a relationship and it was very sort of clearly avoidant to being...

[915] Which I do slightly regret now.

[916] Like I was like, oh, maybe.

[917] But then, yeah, again, I do believe that I wouldn't have the career that I had if I'd focused more on relationships and health before that.

[918] There's a lot of people out there that are arriving, maybe in their late 30s and that maybe hear that clock ticking.

[919] Yeah.

[920] And then they reflect on the decisions they've made over the last 20 years and they say, do you know what, actually, I hear the clock ticking, and I do want a family.

[921] A lot of people also say, I hear the clock ticking, I don't.

[922] Some people just don't hear the clock ticking at all.

[923] Yeah.

[924] But there's a lot of people that are arriving at that age and going, okay, the priorities I had, in hindsight now, maybe I got something wrong here earlier.

[925] And it's difficult.

[926] And I think that's really what your book does so well, is it's so honest about that sort of internal conversation you had with yourself about, okay, there are changes I need be made if I want to achieve something else.

[927] And I've decided I want something else.

[928] And throughout your whole story, it's so clear that you can change.

[929] Yeah.

[930] And it's never too late to change.

[931] And it's...

[932] Yeah.

[933] And I really, if anybody listening is like a late bloomer like, like me, I mean, I don't think there's any shame in that.

[934] And that's one of the reasons why I put that virginity story in the book.

[935] Because like, on the one hand, it's very embarrassing for me to say that.

[936] But then if that helps other people out there feel like, oh, I'm not.

[937] You know, You know, okay, well, Rebel was like that and look at the life she has now.

[938] And so I would want them to not feel embarrassed about that because it doesn't really matter when you bloom, like what age or, you know, things have come to me later in life.

[939] But I think all that matters is that it has come to me. Now, why am I saying the way to come so much and talking about virginity?

[940] I don't know.

[941] But, yeah, I just, I'm glad that my life turned out, you know, I didn't get all these awesome things in my 20s.

[942] It happened later and that's okay.

[943] We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be living it for.

[944] And the question that's been left for you is, those people that you love the most, what is preventing you from spending enough time hugging them?

[945] are you able to change this?

[946] Okay, so what's, so the people I love the most, obviously, apart from my family is like my, you know, my immediate family is my daughter and my partner.

[947] And what's preventing me from hugging them the most is literally physically not being with them because I'm like out promoting the book and, or if I'm shooting something and it's not appropriate for the baby to come, so not physically being in the same country or city as them because I'm working too much.

[948] And it says, are you able to change this?

[949] And I am able to change it by not just accepting too much work and, you know, prioritizing the family more.

[950] Rebel, your book is incredible.

[951] It's incredible for so many reasons, because it seems, seeks to answer those really critical questions that I think a lot of people are struggling with, which is about romance, it's about fertility, it's about, am I good enough, it's about finding love, it's about, it's an honest reflection of what I think a lot of workaholics go through in the modern era, while also weaving in a story, which I don't think many people know about your early childhood and where you've really come from, and all the odds you've had to fight against, coming from where you've come from, to get to where you ended up, really remarkable in every sense of the word, but you confront the trade -offs, which a lot of people don't always talk about, those trade -offs, we all have to make, because as you said in this conversation, you can't have it all in life.

[952] And so, you know, you can't have it all at the same time.

[953] Yeah.

[954] For sure.

[955] You can probably have it all just not at the same time.

[956] Yes.

[957] And even, yeah, and life just presents these trades.

[958] Especially for people that are anomalies, they have to make even bigger tradeoffs than others.

[959] It's a remarkably funny book in such a subtle untry hard way, which is 100%.

[960] But even you in conversation are the same.

[961] You're funny without even trying, which is remarkable.

[962] And The Almond and the Seahorse, I was told it was coming out on the 10th of May. Yeah, in cinemas here in the UK.

[963] Yeah, so it's out now and everyone can go and watch it.

[964] Yeah, and that's about traumatic brain injury.

[965] It's very serious movie.

[966] And that was where I kissed my first woman in that movie, the French actress Charlotte Gainsburg.

[967] And the rest is history.

[968] Yeah, that's, yeah, part of my big part of my life on screen.

[969] Rebel, thank you.

[970] Thank you, Stephen.

[971] And I really appreciate it.

[972] And it is my most vulnerable, intimate thought.

[973] put out there.

[974] But yeah, even if like 10 people relate to it and get something positive out of it, that's like that means the world to me. And so even why it's nerve -wracking having the book out there, it's awesome at the same time.