Giant Bombcast Giant Bomb Game of the Year 2010: Day Two

[0] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Day 2 of Giant Bob's Game of the Year 2010 Deliberations.

[1] I'm Ryan Davis.

[2] Joining me, Mr. Vinnie Caravella, Mr. Jeff Gerstman, Mr. Brad Shoemaker.

[3] Day 2.

[4] Game of the Year.

[5] Got the rainy day blues.

[6] Day 2.

[7] We're on a mission from God.

[8] What we are getting with here is a total act of respect for the law.

[9] And that's going to do it for day two of Giant Palms.

[10] No, so over the course of this week, we are putting out these podcasts.

[11] This is the actual deliberation process.

[12] This is us figuring out these categories and figuring out who should win.

[13] Warts and all.

[14] This is us learning to hate each other.

[15] Oh, I learned that a long time ago.

[16] This is whatever.

[17] I love it.

[18] I love it.

[19] What do we got today, Jeff?

[20] What are our categories?

[21] We've got best downloadable add -on.

[22] Best co -op.

[23] Best download only game.

[24] Best looking game.

[25] And best Xbox 360 only game.

[26] Fantastic.

[27] Looking at this list of nominees now.

[28] And judging by yesterday.

[29] Yeah.

[30] This should be pretty interesting.

[31] There's a couple of recurring.

[32] The line must be drawn.

[33] Here.

[34] There will be some recurring themes.

[35] I had to let them go.

[36] Let's start off with the.

[37] With the best downloadable add -on.

[38] Yes, this is actually one of my most anticipated categories this year.

[39] I think this is the strongest category in the entire thing.

[40] We've got three picks already.

[41] I'm happy with these three, too.

[42] We've got Shadow Broker for Mass Effect 2.

[43] Undead Nightmare for Red Dead Redemption.

[44] And Minerva's Den for Bioshock 2.

[45] We have...

[46] I think we solidly agree, right?

[47] That we need to go through the...

[48] I can't think...

[49] Yeah, I mean, I liked some of the Borderlands packs a lot, but I don't think any one of those packs necessarily...

[50] If this were a best -supported category or lump all the DLC together into one big thing, then I might be like, ah, Borderlands.

[51] Collectively, they make that a much better game, right?

[52] Yeah.

[53] But there's not a standout among them.

[54] I think there's a standout among them, but compared to some of this stuff, I think some of this stuff does more for their respective games than any of the Borderlands packs do.

[55] So let's dig in.

[56] This is actually going to be a tough one for me. These are all fantastic.

[57] They are.

[58] All great.

[59] So, Brad, you just played Lair of the Shadow Bird.

[60] Yeah, I finished it at like 2 .30 last night.

[61] How did you feel about that experience?

[62] It's great, but it's not a consistent experience.

[63] I think that it's very combat heavy.

[64] It feels like it was artificially padded out a little bit with combat.

[65] Maybe it's because I haven't played Mass Effect 2 in probably six months.

[66] So there was a little bit of a period of getting used to the combat again, but I felt like there was a little more combat in there than I would have hoped for in a $10 expansion.

[67] There's a lot of fight in there, but there's also some terrific story stuff.

[68] It's great at the end, like the very end of it.

[69] I don't know how much we can talk about.

[70] There's some good setup, though.

[71] There is.

[72] There is.

[73] It starts with some pretty good intrigue.

[74] I think we should just say, if you're listening to this, then we...

[75] Should we just lay it out there?

[76] I think we can't really pull that many punches, right?

[77] Yeah.

[78] We have to talk about this stuff explicitly.

[79] Oh, man. I will not spoil Nervous Den for even the people in this room.

[80] We might be able to talk a little bit.

[81] Then we will not win.

[82] We might be able to talk a little bit more about that.

[83] Because I really like Lair of the Shadow Broker.

[84] I think that Undead Knight...

[85] Nightmare is good.

[86] It drags, though.

[87] Well, let's keep talking about Shadow Broker.

[88] Let's just talk explicitly.

[89] You fight the goddamn Shadow Broker.

[90] You do.

[91] Or a Shadow Broker.

[92] Right?

[93] The current.

[94] The idea of the Shadow Broker.

[95] So, yeah, they build some really good mystique around the character of, or maybe I should say the idea of the Shadow Broker.

[96] Yeah.

[97] Because it turns, I mean, can we just say it?

[98] Yeah.

[99] Like, it turns out the Shadow Broker has not always been one guy.

[100] It's just like a role that.

[101] Ambitious people come along and murder each other to take over.

[102] Dread Pirate Roberts.

[103] That's exactly what it is.

[104] That stuff is cool.

[105] You are now the new Shadow Broker.

[106] His ship is one of the most amazing locales in Mass Effect.

[107] The ship definitely looks cool.

[108] And you get to go.

[109] You get to fight on the outside, the inside, the upside, the downside.

[110] Be on the outside.

[111] And fight and fight and fight.

[112] And the little solar panel things that are raising and lowering all around you.

[113] And the engines on the inside I thought were pretty cool.

[114] But even aside from all that stuff, aside from the core content, the – The dossiers you get to read at the end are awesome.

[115] Oh, my God.

[116] That's so cool.

[117] Jeff, have you played this yet?

[118] No. So at the very end, you get basically access to the Shadow Brokers files.

[119] Right.

[120] His network.

[121] He has shit on every single member of your team.

[122] Yeah.

[123] You learn crazy things about the rest of the crew from Mass Effect 2.

[124] That Miranda.

[125] She's got a background.

[126] She's a man. Yeah, she's tough.

[127] And good stuff on Morton.

[128] That's a loose lady right there.

[129] Even stuff on the Geth dude is in there.

[130] No, I didn't see that.

[131] Oh, yeah, the Legion stuff's hilarious.

[132] He's a really good online gamer.

[133] I liked the log of the Elusive Man's sexual conquests over the last week.

[134] Right.

[135] That guy gets around, too.

[136] There's a lot of strong, really, really strong support of the Mass Effect 2 fiction in that piece of DLC.

[137] It sets up some cool stuff for the next one, although I don't know if the way that it ended for me is the only way it can end or if it's variable.

[138] I think that's it.

[139] But then even if you don't buy this thing, you won't have seen that stuff.

[140] What I'm wondering is if the ending of this thing is going to be considered canon from Mass Effect 3 because...

[141] Maybe they'll have a comic book that bridges it and resets the fiction.

[142] But what it sets up there could actually play a...

[143] pretty big part in the next game yeah which is cool is neat i do think even if you don't if you haven't played it if you like i mean like the shepherd as shadow broker no no no it's not that it's not even that far but uh it puts liara in a role that uh that she i feel like if you don't if you don't download it install it and play it and have it on your save That's kind of set up in the main game anyway.

[144] She's on her way there.

[145] It's plausible that that would have happened.

[146] She's so kind of like, that is her path when you leave her.

[147] But it's cool to take part in that outcome playing out.

[148] And one of the most fantastic things about that piece of DLC, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think the Shadowbroker is a completely new model.

[149] I don't think he's a creature you ever see before.

[150] He's a YAG.

[151] He's a dick.

[152] He is.

[153] I don't really...

[154] What's your...

[155] It bothers me that this guy is some kind of all -powerful information broker.

[156] Like, he is...

[157] He's the Batman, right?

[158] He's more an idea than a man or a single being.

[159] Like, his power comes from the mystique and the fear around his legend.

[160] Well, the network, too.

[161] Right.

[162] And then you get to him, and he also happens to be a 12 -foot -tall hulking monster.

[163] I love that.

[164] Oh!

[165] I love that part.

[166] But I feel like that part was...

[167] was implemented purely to give you, like, a big boss fight.

[168] I don't know.

[169] I think it would have been so much more just predictable if it was, oh, it's just a frail little man. I thought it was going to be a supercomputer.

[170] Or an aware computer or something like that.

[171] I was so happy it was this big, like, fucking dinosaur -looking thing.

[172] Like, whoa, dude.

[173] But I feel like they...

[174] You feel like that was just for the sake of the combat scene?

[175] Yeah, and it shoots the whole idea of the Shadow Broker in the foot because...

[176] In the end, he is just a big monster and can just grind you into a pulp.

[177] But even that is supported in the fiction of how he came.

[178] He was like a pet or something.

[179] He was like an underling.

[180] He was the last of his type.

[181] Well, no, no. There was a planet full of them, but he wanted to get off the planet.

[182] Right.

[183] And kind of rose through the ranks.

[184] I mean, there's that great email exchange where you can see the real Shadow Broker is getting more and more nervous about how adept this creature is getting at speaking languages and manipulating.

[185] people and like she's subterviews and everything and then the second to last missive is all other operatives converge on and take out operative so -and -so and then it's like it cuts off like an hour later like belay the last order the operative has been dealt with please resume normal operation never come in my room again it's great it's great yeah like yeah this stuff's good I like there's a good chase to that piece of content.

[186] When you're running through the city and then when you're in the hover cars, although I had the hover cars thing go bad.

[187] I did too.

[188] The controls were bad on that sequence.

[189] It's too bad.

[190] That part is like the thing.

[191] It's like, wow, this is going to be a cool sequence.

[192] But then when it fucks up, it's suddenly like, this is now a really trying part of this content.

[193] It definitely is.

[194] I like that it happens in two parts.

[195] There's a good setup.

[196] There's some good entry on Ilium, and then you go to a new area.

[197] They made an actual new level to fight through.

[198] Out of all the DLC that's come out for Mass Effect 2, that was a great little piece of work.

[199] Definitely.

[200] It kind of – it's great.

[201] Like I loved it.

[202] I thought it was great.

[203] But it does feel like just a slightly longer side mission from Mass Effect 2.

[204] Well, it felt like one of the companion quest missions.

[205] Definitely.

[206] Yeah, it was about as long as like a loyalty mission.

[207] How much are they charging for currently?

[208] It's $10.

[209] So it's kind of a nice level playing field in this category because all three of these great DLCs are the same price.

[210] So there is kind of a linear value proposition here when you look at these things.

[211] I just think that Lair of the Shadow Broker, it is somewhat combat heavy, but I think it still delivers the goods on the fiction in the story.

[212] At the end it does, absolutely.

[213] It's all kind of concentrated at the end, though, I feel like.

[214] Yeah, you're not wrong.

[215] But, man, I probably spent like an hour sitting there digging through all the dossiers and profiles and stuff that he has there.

[216] I've got to go back and read that stuff.

[217] I didn't realize.

[218] Amazing stuff.

[219] And there's a couple of other things there, and I can't remember what's on those terminals.

[220] There's all kinds of stuff.

[221] I didn't actually get a sense of what it all does.

[222] Some kind of like, yeah, like little hub world kind of thing.

[223] Some of it felt a little cheap to me because there's one terminal that just like.

[224] here are the locations of half a dozen very, very mineral -rich planets because you paid us $10 for this content, so we're going to give you a bunch of extra minerals.

[225] That's the sort of thing a shadow broker would know.

[226] Yeah, which works totally out of line.

[227] It definitely works into the fiction, but you can see the thought process that went into implementing this stuff.

[228] That's the stuff I was talking about.

[229] It's treasure at the end of the thing.

[230] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[231] But who wants it online?

[232] I just feel like you're right.

[233] They don't do anything in that Mass Effect 2 doesn't.

[234] do in its main story.

[235] I just think that it's some of the best executed Mass Effect 2 missions that there are.

[236] It's probably, I'm thinking back, it's probably better than any of the loyalty missions.

[237] For places that you fight, regardless of the quality of the combat or whatever.

[238] The outside of his ship is just so visually striking.

[239] Such a crazy place.

[240] With constant lightning storms going on around you.

[241] Considering the quality of the loyalty missions in that game by default, if you're saying it's better than any of those...

[242] This is fucking amazing.

[243] Most of them.

[244] Yeah, I came away from that just glowing.

[245] Just so happy.

[246] But again, the fiction experience is so rich.

[247] Like you said, the constant lightning storms.

[248] But that ship has to be in them, right?

[249] Because that's what powers the – it has to be struck by lightning over and over.

[250] Well, it's how they're keeping themselves secret is that they're in this solar storm the entire time.

[251] But the engines, I think, run off the lightning or whatever.

[252] There's a bunch of stuff in the Codex pieces that – I missed that.

[253] I don't know.

[254] Yeah.

[255] It's awesome.

[256] It's good.

[257] It's great.

[258] It's very good.

[259] Let's talk about some of the other ones.

[260] Some of the undead nightmare.

[261] It's awesome.

[262] Yeah.

[263] Okay.

[264] We can agree that all three of these are awesome.

[265] It's so ridiculous.

[266] It's ridiculous.

[267] And it's amazing that it pulls it off.

[268] Yeah.

[269] We really didn't have huge expectations.

[270] I'll just start by saying I'm not trying to pick apart any arguments yet, but I will say if you're going to say like Mass Effect 2.

[271] Shadow Broker is combat heavy.

[272] Some of that stuff in Undead Nightmare is...

[273] Taking the towns is not great.

[274] It's a bummer just because it's really the same thing over and over.

[275] Did you guys ever just go and collect the ammo or did you just have enough on you and go...

[276] I never really had to.

[277] Yeah, just shoot some zombies and move on.

[278] That was not the draw of that.

[279] That is the weakest part of that DLC.

[280] I do appreciate that.

[281] They force you to go for headshots or the zombies will just get back up.

[282] They give you, like it says when you start, it's like in the Undead Nightmare, you will have vastly increased Deadeye meter.

[283] So you can basically just like do the lock on.

[284] I forgot.

[285] I forgot how to lock on.

[286] Did you not do that?

[287] So like if you did that, if you didn't use the Deadeye in Undead Nightmare, then that probably sucked.

[288] No, no. I used the Deadeye, but I was pulling the trigger each time.

[289] I forgot the right bumper.

[290] Yeah, I would just like go.

[291] peg like six heads in a row and he would just shoot them all until it was like until it was like oh you need this one of the challenges or whatever was like I'll get five headshots on five zombies in one one dead eye while they're on fire and I was like I was like oh right there's this whole other mechanic in this game I had forgotten about it I think it's impressive that they're able to diverge from like the tone and theme of the main game and still have it work as as this kind of Definitely a good Twilight Zone.

[292] Yeah, yeah.

[293] It feels...

[294] It's like, yeah, it's Hollywood monster movie stuff.

[295] And they set it up in the beginning with the narrator even being like, John Marston returns home one night.

[296] So cheesy.

[297] And so Vinny hasn't gotten to the song.

[298] There's a, much like in the main game, there is a specific song.

[299] It's like this monster punk rock song.

[300] Oh, that's right.

[301] That plays kind of near the end.

[302] It's almost Monster Mash -y kind of.

[303] Yeah, yeah.

[304] But it kind of sounds like a Misfit song or something.

[305] Which is like, you talk about putting that in a Western that's completely bananas, but I think it works there.

[306] I mean, I just take issue.

[307] I reached a point with that where I was like, I kind of want this to be over now.

[308] I kind of don't want to keep running around the countryside.

[309] I know what you mean.

[310] I'm tired of going into each town and having to save it.

[311] Save it, and then, oh, it got taken again.

[312] I've got to go back.

[313] I think that decision may have been ill -advised, the whole territorial control thing, especially making you go back and redo it.

[314] Even having to do it the first time starts to get kind of tedious.

[315] That felt like the padding for me. Worked at San Andreas.

[316] If that hadn't been in there and it was just story missions straight through it.

[317] It might have been a stronger add -on, I think.

[318] It would have been a lot shorter, too.

[319] Definitely.

[320] Yeah, which may have benefited it, because I definitely was...

[321] Monster bears.

[322] Undead monster bears.

[323] Zombie bears.

[324] Sasquatch.

[325] Did you guys do the Sasquatch?

[326] That could be the best quest.

[327] That was amazing.

[328] That Sasquatch quest was really good.

[329] Did you not feel like the biggest dick in the world?

[330] My wife was next to me, and she was like, what are you doing?

[331] And she's like, this is the saddest thing.

[332] I don't know if we should spoil that quest because it's so damn amazing, but I feel like Jeff, you need to get up to it, right?

[333] We know what we're talking about.

[334] I feel like you just have to say it.

[335] There's just, at some point, this whiny -ass Sasquatch who's like...

[336] I wouldn't say that at all.

[337] He has just become a shell of a being.

[338] He's just sitting there, head in hands, being like, just kill me. So he's just like.

[339] Because you just murdered.

[340] Kill me. He's the last Sasquatch.

[341] Dwayne from GTA 4.

[342] Yeah.

[343] Murdered his entire family.

[344] Just I don't want to live.

[345] That was his name, right?

[346] Dwayne, the guy that got out of prison.

[347] Yeah.

[348] But that kind of under his voice.

[349] You're just standing over him with a gun.

[350] Just like, kill me. Oh, man. Prior to that.

[351] Did you shoot him?

[352] You can't.

[353] You can't?

[354] Did you try?

[355] Yeah.

[356] No, you can't.

[357] It won't let you.

[358] What does he do?

[359] It won't.

[360] It's like X over the crosshair or something?

[361] Like it doesn't allow you.

[362] It doesn't pull the trigger?

[363] Yeah.

[364] Oh, all right.

[365] This is off my list.

[366] I don't.

[367] Go back and try it.

[368] Okay.

[369] I read that.

[370] I went online and checked it.

[371] Okay.

[372] Okay.

[373] Okay.

[374] I looked at the guide.

[375] I could have sworn that I totally smoked him.

[376] Now you're making me doubt myself, but the guide definitely says you're literally not able to kill the last one after you have the cutscene.

[377] But all the trimmings around that thing, like the four horses of the apocalypse that you can tame and ride.

[378] You eat babies, don't you?

[379] You remember how many birds there were to shoot in the original game?

[380] The fact that they're all bats now.

[381] The coloration in the sky is very different.

[382] There's a lot of oranges.

[383] The fact that it's kind of green.

[384] Everything has the color palette is just globally very different.

[385] The whole thing just feels like Halloween Town.

[386] Yeah, with all the atmosphere.

[387] It's like going to Disneyland during Halloween.

[388] Yes, absolutely.

[389] It's like, well, I know the basic layout here and stuff, but everything's kind of spooky.

[390] Come to think of it, yeah, the whole thing kind of feels like a spooky theme park.

[391] Yeah.

[392] I still hate cougars.

[393] Zombie cougars will kill you.

[394] I like the zombification of some of the main story characters.

[395] Yeah.

[396] Some good stuff there.

[397] I didn't remember some from the graveyard.

[398] I guess when you do those...

[399] Oh, those guys are just whatever.

[400] But I'm talking about named speaking characters from the main game that turn into zombies and it's just ridiculous.

[401] I'm just going to run down this street here.

[402] This dark alley.

[403] I'll be right back.

[404] Some good self -awareness in there.

[405] Yeah, it's a...

[406] That was a fun one.

[407] Now, I have not played any Minerva's Den.

[408] That breaks my heart.

[409] I hoped you would play it before this.

[410] It's up to you guys to tell me what's so damn fancy about this.

[411] The thing it does that the other two don't do is it constructs a fully self -contained and fully realized game within itself.

[412] It is essentially a three -hour full game.

[413] Yeah, it's a short story.

[414] Yeah, it's like from start to finish, like you're not picking up characters from the main game, which is probably for the best.

[415] Though, you know, to be fair, I mean, I agree with you, but to be completely honest, if you are not familiar with Bioshock 2 or Bioshock 1, then you...

[416] Bioshock 1, sure.

[417] It is not...

[418] Right.

[419] You need to have some kind of understanding of what's going on there.

[420] The average person is not going to be in the position we were in of having received copies of the game from the publisher and just not having gotten around to playing them and then just jumping into the DLC.

[421] I feel like that's kind of tainting your opinion of this DLC because hearing that there's just as much kind of little sister trap rivet stuff in this DLC.

[422] It's all optional.

[423] Well, it's all technically optional in Bioshock 2 also.

[424] But it's not balanced the same way.

[425] I had a massive surplus of Adam at the end of this thing, and I didn't do most of the little sister things.

[426] I spent it all.

[427] I definitely went through it.

[428] I mean, I bought all the plans.

[429] I thought it was not especially challenging.

[430] The description of it sounds like the gameplay is just about identical to Bioshock 2.

[431] The gameplay is not what makes this amazing.

[432] It is Bioshock 2.

[433] It's got...

[434] One new weapon or two?

[435] It's got one new weapon, one new plasma.

[436] I didn't play much of Bioshock 2 yet.

[437] I played about four hours of Bioshock 2.

[438] I may have played more than you then.

[439] I don't know what's new and what's not.

[440] I suspect that if you had finished Bioshock 2 and then went on to play this, you probably would have appreciated the story and then be telling a very different tale about the gameplay.

[441] I don't think so because, again, you don't have to do any of the stuff that you're objecting to about Bioshock 2 because it's not necessary.

[442] But kind of all of the parts of Bioshock 2 are parts that you might not want to do a lot more of.

[443] after playing Bioshock 2 uh like yeah I don't know because it was I liked Bioshock 2 it was the first time I had to like rescue little sisters but hearing that yeah like hearing that this plays like Bioshock 2 I'm like oh well I would much rather read about what this story is than play more Bioshock 2 then.

[444] It's really tough for me to tell because I hadn't played through that stuff.

[445] So all of that stuff was new for me, like the trap rivets, the vortex plasmids and stuff, all the trapping.

[446] But they breadcrumb that stuff, or I should say they kind of lead you along with such incentive that it kind of, I don't know.

[447] What you got going on, Ryan?

[448] I'm being dripped on over here.

[449] That's me. This pipe is leaking.

[450] Oh, yeah.

[451] I see it.

[452] It's condensation.

[453] Oh, yeah.

[454] Look at that.

[455] It's not condensation.

[456] The underside of it is dripping wet.

[457] Is that all?

[458] There it goes.

[459] What's that?

[460] Yeah, I know.

[461] I'm watching it fall on you right above your head.

[462] Yeah, I know.

[463] It's been dripping on my back.

[464] Gross.

[465] Yeah.

[466] Just like Rapture.

[467] I hate this.

[468] But the dripping?

[469] All right.

[470] Layer of the shadow.

[471] No Minerva's den.

[472] Yeah, no. The setup for it is basically you are another prototype Big Daddy.

[473] Right.

[474] Which on his face sounds ridiculous.

[475] Again, not having played through too much of Bioshock 2.

[476] I don't know how many of these two are.

[477] That is insane.

[478] Okay.

[479] That very – the notion of that is – But it's absolutely not insane.

[480] You are a Sigma, right?

[481] From – Well, from the events of Bioshock 2, hearing like, now you're another prototype.

[482] It's not.

[483] Come on.

[484] It's not.

[485] Do they explain it?

[486] Yes.

[487] Better than you can possibly imagine.

[488] Everything in this add -on is justified.

[489] That's great.

[490] Yeah.

[491] Again, not knowing Bioshock 2's main storyline, I don't know how well they established the fiction of the prototype Big Daddies, but they kind of don't.

[492] okay like not not i mean they establish yours like as sigma or whatever like they Oh, so you're Sigma and Bioshock 2?

[493] And then you're like Delta or something?

[494] Delta and Bioshock 2 and Sigma and the add -on.

[495] Regardless, like you are...

[496] In that case, the add -on does more to flesh out the general history of the Big Daddies than the actual game does.

[497] Bioshock 1 did, I think, address a lot of the stuff that comes up.

[498] The first game never really commented on who these people were or how they became.

[499] I mean, other than you go through the process of finding the boots and then the helmet and you put it together and you're a Big Daddy.

[500] Yeah.

[501] I mean, they basically say that people who have been disappeared by Andrew Ryan become...

[502] Which one's best?

[503] Big Daddy.

[504] For me?

[505] Yeah.

[506] This is an easy choice for me because I just love the Mass Effect.

[507] But see, I think you're falling back on that because...

[508] Which one is best?

[509] I think Minerva is best by far.

[510] Yeah, so...

[511] But I would have to sit here and tell you everything about why the story is, in a lot of ways, the best story of anything I played this year.

[512] I would...

[513] I disagree with that.

[514] I think the story, and I think the, for me, again, I'm very invested in the Mass Effect universe, but the whole Shadowbroker bit at the end is pretty impactful for me. Definitely, but I feel like you kind of go through a lot of generic Mass Effect 2 stuff to get to it.

[515] Well, I mean, you go through a lot of generic Bioshock -y stuff.

[516] But the way they roll it out smoothly from start to finish, like they build to a very specific crescendo in Minerva's Den.

[517] Both of these sound like the gameplay is the same as the core games in question.

[518] They totally are.

[519] That doesn't seem like a differentiating point.

[520] Honestly, Undead Nightmare is essentially the same thing.

[521] None of these games' strongest point is their action.

[522] They're all story -driven games.

[523] I don't know if these are new locations in Bioshock.

[524] They're all new levels.

[525] The level design is really good.

[526] For me, I just have to go with what...

[527] resonated with me the most.

[528] A lot of the reason that you like Shadow Broker is because you love Mass Effect 2 so much.

[529] It's worth loving.

[530] If it comes out of that, I think we can all agree, even those of you who haven't necessarily played it all the way through, that Mass Effect 2 is a better game than Bioshock 2.

[531] Let me finish here.

[532] I think Mass Effect 2 is 100 times better than Bioshock 2.

[533] I still like Minerva's Den better than Shadow Broker.

[534] Yeah, Minerva's Den...

[535] I just think there's something to be said about the, I don't know, immersion in both of those.

[536] They both have it.

[537] Maybe I felt like Mass Effect 2 is a little more interactive, let's say, for lack of a better word.

[538] Bioshock 2 is you're fed the story as you kind of go along these paths.

[539] You pick up the thing and you're fed the kind of story.

[540] And Mass Effect 2, maybe I just felt like I had a little more agency in what was happening.

[541] Really?

[542] Yeah.

[543] It's 100 % linear.

[544] There's no...

[545] In Mass Effect 2?

[546] That add -on.

[547] There are no side paths.

[548] No. There's no variation in the way it plays around.

[549] I got you, but it was my shepherd.

[550] It's part of my main storyline.

[551] There are no choices to make.

[552] It's going to flesh out this world.

[553] It is now another node on the kind of Mass Effect 2 story tree here that could go on to affect other things.

[554] Whereas Minerva's Den is great.

[555] It's self -containment, but it is just that.

[556] It's very self -contained.

[557] And also, like, the stuff, and again, I could be speaking out of ignorance, but the stuff that they reference in Minerva's Den, I had never heard of in the Bioshock universe at all.

[558] And it's a pretty big deal.

[559] Well, again, I mean...

[560] They're basically this supercomputer that runs all of Rapture.

[561] That has nothing to do with Bioshock 2.

[562] Yeah, that's not Bioshock 2.

[563] I'm saying that part, if that's such a big deal, how can we have never heard of this thing before at all?

[564] For better or for worse, they keep piecemeal adding to the scope and the fiction of Rapture by bolting more and more parts of the city onto it.

[565] At a certain point, though, it's great that Minerva's Den is an awesome piece of standalone content.

[566] But this is a downloadable add -on.

[567] How does this enrich the world?

[568] That doesn't have to be a prerequisite for it to be the best, though.

[569] No, no, but I'm saying for me, the payoff for Shadow Broker was something that had spanned two whole games for me. Call it fan service or whatever, but this is content that I was really...

[570] If you told me that I was going to go...

[571] find out the secrets of Andrew Ryan, that would be a way bigger thing.

[572] But they kind of constructed this own little world and kind of created the elements they needed to to make a good story, but it didn't tie back in in any way to what I loved about Bioshock in terms of its actual story fiction.

[573] I don't think it has to, though.

[574] It kind of leaves behind the aspects of Bioshock 2.

[575] It doesn't have to, but then it also doesn't have to resonate as well with me. I think because it resonates on its own as a standalone piece of...

[576] But it didn't for me. For me, the kind of greater fiction is the thing that made Shadowbroker.

[577] I think it's to Shadowbroker's credit that it does kind of loop back around and feed into the fiction that spawned it in the first place.

[578] I think it's cool that it adds something back to that, but the actual content of the add -on itself, I think, is inferior to Minerva's Den.

[579] Other than that last...

[580] Basically fighting the Shadow Broker and the stuff that happens after that, which is reading a bunch of terminals, is awesome.

[581] Yeah, but the part in Minerva's End that are cool are the audio logs, and the combat is still the combat.

[582] And the kind of walking around buying plasmids is still walking around buying plasmids, and harvesting Atom is still harvesting Atom.

[583] The only really exceptional part of that that is in any way different than all of Bioshock 1, 2, and anything else is the quality of the audio logs.

[584] And the storytelling in general.

[585] It's not just audio logs.

[586] There are pieces everywhere.

[587] But they're kind of audio logs.

[588] No, they built tons of new art assets that help flesh out the storyline of this specific part of Rapture.

[589] The robotic little sisters all over the place that they tried to build and implement.

[590] Yeah, but they don't really flesh that out.

[591] That's one audio log.

[592] It's because it's trimming there.

[593] It's just there to flesh out the story that they're telling in this little...

[594] self -contained piece right but again it's like it's very it's almost that it's self -contained part is is almost detrimental like like why if it were like explaining other things in the bioshock universe maybe it does it explains all kinds of stuff well it has a robotic little sister they established the thinker as the governing body behind all of the turrets and security cameras and robots and everything in the city.

[595] Totally.

[596] Like, they give reason to that stuff.

[597] I've never heard of that.

[598] I don't know that knowing how the turrets work is necessarily, like, vital.

[599] But at least they find a pretty appealing way to tie it back into even the first game.

[600] Yeah.

[601] But I have a problem with the kind of, again, like, on its own, it's kind of, like, it's awesome.

[602] I'm not going to say it's not, but, like, the fact that this is so self -contained that none of that stuff has ever bled out.

[603] into the rest of the Bioshock universe.

[604] I don't even understand that criticism because it hadn't been written before.

[605] They wrote that for this.

[606] Absolutely.

[607] I mean, at this point, we're getting multiple people working within the same fictional construct.

[608] Basically having to come up with new ideas to keep it interesting.

[609] It's not Ken Levine that's been writing this stuff.

[610] I'm not going to debate the mechanics of how it came to be.

[611] I'm saying I could read you the story of this and it would probably all make sense to you.

[612] I could read you the story of Shadow Broker and have to dig into the greater Mass Effect universe to really fully experience it.

[613] For me, the payoff was just a lot more.

[614] I think they're the same in that regard.

[615] Like, they both draw on the specific aspects of the fiction that spawn them.

[616] Also, for me, I like the gameplay in Mass Effect more than I like the gameplay in Bioshock.

[617] I agree with you, except that it's so much generic combat, basically, through the entirety of this thing.

[618] For both of them, though.

[619] You can't talk about that when Bioshock 2 plays the way it does.

[620] It's not a bad game, though.

[621] It plays fine.

[622] Your review says that it plays better than the first game.

[623] But also, the gameplay is not what drove you to Bioshock in the first place.

[624] I wouldn't say that the gameplay is what I played Mass Effect for, either.

[625] There are way better third -person shooters on the market.

[626] No, no, but for me, the parts where they both have their parts where you're stuck in combat and you're kind of like, I want to get out of here.

[627] If you stripped them down to just the gameplay and just the raw combat...

[628] I don't think either one of them is best.

[629] I would take Mass Effect any day.

[630] There's not enough to Shadow Broker.

[631] This is having played it in the last 12 hours.

[632] Yeah.

[633] I don't know if you're letting the...

[634] The conclusion, the fictional conclusion of this add -on is amazing, but I don't know if you're letting that cloud what happens in the other 90 % of this thing, which is just a lot of running forward and shooting guys.

[635] And nothing else to pad it out.

[636] Whereas Minerva's Den very slowly builds a pretty layered storyline.

[637] I disagree.

[638] I think Shadow Broker...

[639] builds up to your encounter with the Shadow Broker in a big way.

[640] Going into it, we had talked about the Shadow Broker before you played it, and you're like, I don't remember this guy being in the fiction.

[641] But for it to pay off for you at the end, they must have set him up.

[642] I remember Liar talking about it.

[643] I mean that's the focal point of her presence in Mass Effect 2 is the Shadow Broker.

[644] So they – in Shadow Broker, they have the stages in which you kind of have to reach him and kind of penetrate, find out where he is, chase that other person, get to there.

[645] In Minerva's Den, your main goal is to get to this supercomputer and you're piecing the story together as you go.

[646] It's the stuff you find out along the way.

[647] But again, it's mostly just audio logs.

[648] It's a passive experience as you're kind of just picking up, putting a story together.

[649] There's so much more to it than audio logs, though.

[650] For me, it seemed like it was the audio logs.

[651] I mean, that's the primary, but I mean, that is the primary mechanism through which Bioshock tells stories, like for better or worse.

[652] It sounds like for worse.

[653] Yeah.

[654] It's a good story, man. It's a great story.

[655] It's a better story than Shadowbrook.

[656] As an add -on, if you just took these two pieces of content...

[657] I don't think the...

[658] I don't think the story in the Bioshock universe even needs to be told in the Bioshock universe.

[659] But a good story is a good story.

[660] Yeah, it's a good story.

[661] The setting is incidental to the quality of the narrative.

[662] It's true.

[663] It's not, though.

[664] It is.

[665] It's not incidentally.

[666] I kind of just keep coming back to you saying that this is probably better than the loyalty missions in the game, and I think about how amazing so many of those were and think this discussion's, like, over.

[667] But you haven't played Minerva.

[668] You don't even know what the aspects of it are.

[669] I watched you play a chunk of it when we did that stuff.

[670] That was not at all representative of what is so great about this add -on.

[671] I mean, you need to have the game for both of these.

[672] You've got to be invested in the game, either Bioshock 2 or Mass Effect, to get into either of these.

[673] They're not stand -alones.

[674] So you have to have some kind of context for either of these.

[675] The fact that you have played through Bioshock 2, hopefully, and then...

[676] jump into Minerva's Den for the self -contained bit of fiction, which is great, but doesn't really connect back to any of that stuff.

[677] Whereas Mass Effect 2, you have now just kind of enriched the entire experience.

[678] Go on, keep playing through Mass Effect 2 with this other stuff.

[679] For me, again, for me. is probably what puts Shadow Broker back on top.

[680] Sure.

[681] I have now added to the world in which I will continue to play.

[682] The content of what you're doing in the add -on itself is not as good.

[683] It's so much more vital to the universe.

[684] It's not at all vital.

[685] Well, I can almost even just balance the equation on both sides.

[686] The combat, let's just chalk them both up.

[687] It's the same combat from the core game, right?

[688] Sure.

[689] In both games.

[690] Bioshock has a couple of extra weapons.

[691] Mass Effect is just combat.

[692] I think you get an extra weapon in it, don't you?

[693] And you get Liara to use, who's a new character.

[694] Yeah, but she's got the same ability as everybody else.

[695] I mean, it's a new character.

[696] It's a new character model.

[697] The new weapon in Bioshock is not a huge difference.

[698] There's plenty to it.

[699] I mean, there are three firing modes.

[700] And then the stories I think are comparable.

[701] It's a great story.

[702] It's not the best story ever told.

[703] Which one?

[704] The Minerva's Den.

[705] It's okay.

[706] It's better than the Shadow Broker story.

[707] I see for me it wasn't.

[708] It is better than the Shadow Broker.

[709] The Shadow Broker story is hard.

[710] It's not much of a story.

[711] It's just a kind of big twist when you get to the end of all this combat.

[712] But so is Minerva's Den.

[713] Minerva's Den, that whole story hinges on the big twist at the end, and it's almost just like a rip out of an Asimov book.

[714] It's like five twists, and they happen fluidly.

[715] There are several twists in Shadow Broker.

[716] There's one big twist in Minerva's Den.

[717] It's a very layered twist.

[718] It is extremely.

[719] That's what a twist is.

[720] It wraps around, but it is the one thing.

[721] Even when you think you've figured it out, you haven't quite figured everything out.

[722] But for me, the payoff in Shadow Broker, The logs at the end, all the insight that kind of just fleshes out all that other stuff.

[723] But you can't sit there and say...

[724] That audio logs in Minerva's Den are bullshit.

[725] And then tell me when like 80 % of the payoff in Shadowbreaker is a bunch of text.

[726] I'm not saying it's bullshit.

[727] I'm just saying it's a very passive experience to get the story.

[728] And I don't think it's 80%.

[729] I think it almost seems like a bonus after you're done to get all this other stuff.

[730] I'm not saying the entire story in Shadowbreaker is all just you reading, digging through the text and stuff.

[731] But you can also miss some of that story in Minerva's Den.

[732] If you pass by those audio logs.

[733] you have bypassed some of the most interesting content in that pack.

[734] But that's how they enrich the world and give it texture by scattering the stuff around everywhere.

[735] Right, but that experience, you know, I don't know.

[736] The audio log experience is a great bioset shock thing.

[737] It's a system shock thing.

[738] It's how they do their thing.

[739] But there's so much more to it than that.

[740] I mean, if you go up and look at things on the table.

[741] in this guy's office you'll like absorb so many more facets of the guy's character i don't know like the pictures and stuff i mean there's like there's a letter from alan turing on his desk where you find out like what he did in world war ii with this guy yeah i mean that stuff's kind of interesting like uh there's just so much more to it than shadow broker except for that last like 20 minutes of shadow broker like the stuff on ilium is kind of okay that chasey one sucks The combat is straight out of the original game.

[742] Yeah, but the combat in Minerva's End is nothing to write home about.

[743] We should probably just not even talk about the combat.

[744] And also Rapture.

[745] Again.

[746] If the places are new, that's great.

[747] It's completely new.

[748] It's all new.

[749] I really can't speak to the new environments and stuff.

[750] Whereas half of Shadow Broker takes place on the same planet you've been on.

[751] Yeah, I don't know.

[752] Rapture looked like Rapture to me. I mean, it does, but they do a lot of interesting stuff.

[753] It looked like all the other places that Rapture's kind of broken down.

[754] I don't know.

[755] It just did not strike a chord with me. Some of the setup, and maybe this is explained in Bioshock too, but there's a little suspension of disbelief even within the fiction of the waking up, because it's years after Rapture, right?

[756] This is years after.

[757] This is like 10 years later.

[758] Yeah.

[759] So like the fact that you're...

[760] After Bioshock 1, it's still rapturous.

[761] You're talking about the core game is years after?

[762] Or the add -on, I think.

[763] Does Mervisden take place some chunk of time after Bioshock 2's story?

[764] I mean, there are big sisters and stuff running around.

[765] Kind of at the same time.

[766] It's kind of happening about the same time.

[767] As Bioshock 2.

[768] Yeah, that's what I mean.

[769] Which is like 10 years after.

[770] Right, so if you're a prototype Big Daddy, are they like a mortal?

[771] Like, do they not age at all?

[772] Like, you know, you kind of like wake up with amnesia.

[773] I mean, that's the core premise, right?

[774] That is not very novel, contrived.

[775] We're literally picking apart story at this point.

[776] And you wake up with amnesia and you have a case of lost identity.

[777] Now, the twist at the end is awesome because it fills in your identity in a very interesting way.

[778] It's not the most original thing because Bioshock 1 was basically the same thing.

[779] It's not, but it's executed so well.

[780] But Bioshock 1 was executed fantastically.

[781] Right, and this add -on makes me remember what I fucking loved about Bioshock 1, which is something that I forgot when I played Bioshock 2.

[782] Absolutely.

[783] So you go through this whole thing as a big daddy, going through this guy's work and finding all this stuff, and at the end you realize you're that guy?

[784] Yep.

[785] Yeah.

[786] But it's well done.

[787] That's selling it short.

[788] You have absolutely pulled the rug out from under what's great about that story.

[789] But no. Yeah, that is the story.

[790] Let's not talk around it.

[791] This is end of the year stuff.

[792] We can't just sit here and say, like, that thing and this.

[793] No, you're right.

[794] And that is it.

[795] There's a lot more to it.

[796] It is meted out in an interesting way.

[797] They flesh that character out really well.

[798] And the stuff they do after all that stuff becomes clear and you kill the last guy and there's no more combat, but you're still moving through areas of the world before you exit.

[799] So that stuff is great.

[800] That thread is great.

[801] The fact that you're still saving...

[802] Little Sisters and stuff.

[803] Mechanics aside or optional stuff aside, you're still giving the choice to harvest or not harvest.

[804] It's never made clear if that's going to have any impact aside from the get more Adam or don't get Adam.

[805] Honestly, I couldn't care less about that stuff.

[806] I just passed it up because I didn't feel compelled to keep doing it.

[807] That's part of the game in there.

[808] Having not played Bioshock 2, I wasn't sure do I have to do this stuff or not.

[809] And that stuff had no – it just kind of dead -ended at some point, right?

[810] Like you're just like you're saving or not saving the little girls or whatever.

[811] So the main part is making your way to audio log to audio log to get to the payoff.

[812] Among other things, yeah.

[813] I really feel like that – enough of our perspectives are crippled in different ways on all these games that this argument's never going to end.

[814] Because if you guys haven't played Bioshock 2, talking about this DLC as if it is new and exciting is kind of crazy.

[815] The contrast here, I feel like, is that you guys are largely arguing from the opinion that Mass Effect 2 is a much better game than Bioshock 2.

[816] I agree with that opinion.

[817] I still think Minerva is better.

[818] I'm not coming from that perspective at all.

[819] I'm coming from the perspective that...

[820] that the layer of the Shadow Broker integrates itself into that world so much better.

[821] And that makes it so much more vital to that universe.

[822] It enriches what's already there.

[823] Instead of having to build something from scratch because the core thing isn't good enough.

[824] But it shouldn't need to draw on that much and bring that much back into the core game to be good on its own.

[825] To be good on its own merits.

[826] These are downloadable add -ons.

[827] If I'm spending $10, I would probably rather spend that $10 knowing that I'm going to learn more about Mass Effect 2 characters than a self -contained story set in Rapture.

[828] But you get that and...

[829] Well, you also have to have a love for Rapture, right?

[830] Which I kind of had lost.

[831] Like, I really...

[832] couldn't care less about that stuff.

[833] Right, but you said it reminds you of your kind of stuff.

[834] Right, which is the best stuff that Bioshock has to offer, which is the storytelling, which is like how good the story was in Bioshock.

[835] So if you didn't play Bioshock 1, do you think you would come to this and think that this was as grand a piece of storytelling?

[836] That's what I was trying to get across.

[837] The setting is incidental to the quality of the storyline.

[838] It doesn't really matter where something takes place or who's in it or whatever.

[839] Yeah, but what's a mechanical little sister to you in Minerva's Den when they don't explain what a little sister is at all?

[840] But again, you have to own the game and have probably played the game to play this add -on.

[841] Right, so if we're going back to the kind of...

[842] There's no way that somebody could come to this and have never played anything Bioshock before.

[843] Well, I played it without playing Bioshock 2, so I could have just gone into it.

[844] We are already an outlier having only played the first game.

[845] My point being that we have to incorporate the core game back into this, right?

[846] So it's not a ridiculous thing to say that my love for Mass Effect 2 is influencing my love for Shadow Broker, just as your love for Bioshock is kind of influencing your love for Minerva's Den.

[847] But that's the thing.

[848] I was done with Bioshock.

[849] I really...

[850] didn't care to play any more of it.

[851] I was done with Mass Effect 2 until the next piece of DLC came back.

[852] But you're not, because you said you will...

[853] I will eat up whatever comes out.

[854] Exactly.

[855] You will gladly...

[856] If you told me that another add -on came out for Bioshock 2 made by other people, I probably wouldn't care.

[857] I wouldn't play it.

[858] Why?

[859] Because I don't think that it would be executed to this level of quality.

[860] That's terrible.

[861] Because it's not Rapture.

[862] If you hadn't even played it?

[863] It's not Bioshock and it's not Rapture that made me...

[864] like this so much it has nothing to do with that stuff in fact my appreciation for this add -on is almost in opposition to or in contrast to what i think of rapture and what's considered bioshock at this point so you're saying it's a quality piece of standalone content regardless of the bioshock trappings yes and i'm saying that mass effect 2 shadow broker is uh the best add -on for mass effect to the game because it it it exponentially makes the core experience better when you're done with it.

[865] So they could have released Minerva's Den as 1950s serial drama near Detective.

[866] Sure, absolutely.

[867] Great.

[868] It's a great little piece of standalone content.

[869] I think the Mass Effect 2 Shadow Broker is the best piece of add -on for this year.

[870] It adds on to Mass Effect 2.

[871] But the content of it is not as good.

[872] Let's go back to best debut.

[873] Minerva's Den, best debut.

[874] Again, these are both exceptional pieces of content.

[875] I'm not trying to say that it's not.

[876] And I'll be the first to admit that my love of Mass Effect 2 is heavy.

[877] You were talking to the guy who played 45 hours of that game in the span of five days.

[878] Yeah, but you're also talking to the guy who played through...

[879] the whole thing twice and went back and played Mass Effect.

[880] I'm saying you're preaching to the choir here.

[881] I think Mass Effect 2 is a great fucking game.

[882] I don't think this add -on is as good as other add -ons.

[883] Yeah, it's just...

[884] I say that from the perspective of having just played it.

[885] I think the core piece of Minerva's Den is great that the storytelling is a good reveal, but I do think the Shadow Broker adds more for your money for your Mass Effect.

[886] It almost seems like they should have just done like K -Zero style for this Bioshock.

[887] I absolutely agree.

[888] I agree as well.

[889] I think instead of a Bioshock 2, some kind of like...

[890] This could have won my best downloadable game.

[891] Right.

[892] Like if this had been...

[893] Yeah, exactly.

[894] If this had been like there was a collection called Tales from Rapture and this was a short story in it, like this would be the...

[895] showpiece of that release or whatever.

[896] But as an add -on that expands the universe and delves back into it.

[897] It's just what I want.

[898] It's exactly what I wanted.

[899] It is everything about Mass Effect 2 that I enjoyed.

[900] It is strong narrative.

[901] It is enriching the fiction.

[902] And the Bioshock 2 thing, Minerva's Den, is a great little side story in the Bioshock universe.

[903] I think there they deliver what you didn't know you wanted.

[904] Because if you're like me, you didn't think you could give a shit about anything Bioshock.

[905] But it didn't even have to be Bioshock.

[906] That's my point.

[907] Well, that to me, for this category, it seems like kind of a disconnect.

[908] The fact that it would be better as a standalone thing kind of makes it not as good as an add -on.

[909] I didn't say that.

[910] What you're doing at this point is comparing the quality of the base games, which we've already established.

[911] Mass Effect 2 was way better.

[912] No, no. We're talking about the connection to the core game.

[913] It doesn't have to do with the quality.

[914] It has to do with how does it feed back into it.

[915] These are add -ons.

[916] That is not the critical variable in this formula.

[917] The other pieces of Mass Effect 2 DLC were not that great.

[918] They were pretty good, but they're not that great.

[919] So it's not just the quality of the core game.

[920] Some of them were not as combat focused.

[921] But they all didn't kind of feed back into like, wow, this is a big deal in this universe.

[922] And now we've kind of...

[923] taking care of that like I said if it had something a little bit more to tell me back in and I am the first to admit that I I'm probably at a disadvantage here for not playing through Bioshock 2 because maybe there's stuff I'm missing but it did seem like you know once I was done with it it was a good little story But that universe did not expand as much as Mass Effect 2's did for me. Again, like I said, I think that is a great quality of Shadow Broker.

[924] I think it's super impressive that they can set up stuff for the next game that is actually meaningful in this little add -on.

[925] I would actually suspect that if both of you had played all the way through Bioshock 2, you would probably like Minerva's Den less.

[926] Maybe.

[927] I went back in, I played a bunch more of Bioshock 2, and I enjoyed it.

[928] Let me put it this way.

[929] Like I said, I played enough of Bioshock 2 to not finish Bioshock 2.

[930] Exactly.

[931] But if you had finished Bioshock 2...

[932] But I didn't.

[933] I didn't want to.

[934] I didn't care.

[935] I mean, but there's also stuff in Minerva's Den.

[936] That feels unfair to me, though.

[937] Because this category, I think it's safe to assume that most people out there buying add -ons have finished the game that they are add -ons for.

[938] Yeah.

[939] So I feel like that's such a skewed, crazy perspective that it almost invalidates this entire category.

[940] All right, let's flush it.

[941] Well, if you go from that perspective, then yes.

[942] If you had played all the way through Bioshock 2 and then said, here's a really great story wrapped in more of that gameplay, I would have been like, thanks, but no. I mean, that's how I was starting to feel by the end of Shadow Broker, because they make you do so much fighting, and that is not the best third -person shooting on the market by any stretch.

[943] I mean, I will give you Minerva's Den only in that if Bioshock 2 is kind of as mediocre as it sounds like you guys are saying.

[944] It's less about mediocrity.

[945] That's probably a harsh way of putting it.

[946] But that gameplay, as...

[947] pretty much worn out it's welcome by the end of that game if you are the last thing you would want is more trap rivets more like like all that stuff it's just like okay well again i feel like they alleviate that by balancing the like the atom distribution and stuff is different but also if you played bioshock 2 you would get every single one of those girls in minerva's den Why?

[948] Just because you can?

[949] Because you would sit there and be like, I am going to need them.

[950] I mean, I did get every single one.

[951] And then, like, I mean, you get three and then you fight a big sister.

[952] Or I think, yeah, a big sister.

[953] And then you get another three and you fight another big sister.

[954] Yeah, but you only fight two of those.

[955] And then you're done.

[956] I mean, I was getting every little sister.

[957] That's roughly the structure of Bioshock 2.

[958] Right, I assume.

[959] Every so often you will fight the big sister.

[960] And, you know.

[961] Those sequences were weird out of context from Bioshock 2.

[962] They were a little just kind of like – I know enough about Bioshock 2 to kind of understand what's going on here.

[963] But they kind of just drop out of the sky and it's suddenly like, who the hell is this ninja diver?

[964] But I will give you Minerva's Den for best add -on just because I guess if you have Bioshock 2, your money is probably – If you spent that money investment, spend the $10 to make that game worth the rest of your money.

[965] If you have Mass Effect 2, you've probably enjoyed it the most.

[966] And your level of enjoyment will probably not go up that much from Shadow Broker.

[967] So I can make a case for, again, not having played Bioshock 2.

[968] If it's that much better than Bioshock 2, then you're probably better off spending your money, your $10 on Minerva's Den.

[969] Shadow Broker will not.

[970] make you think uh the mass effect universe is amazing because mass effect 2 did that well yeah you already think that and it's more it's more another great piece of that universe uh i did not need shadow broker to remember how much i love mass effect so i will i will i will seed minerva's then in that context i think i'm all right with that i told you there was gonna be a filibuster i think i'm all right with that I think I'm all right with it, but I'm still almost thinking that we should ditch this entire category because everything is so fucking crazy.

[971] I think it's a great category.

[972] I think it's a great category, but we unfortunately are maybe not equipped to rule on.

[973] But that happens in every category.

[974] Nobody plays everything.

[975] But this is fucking crazy.

[976] Playing add -ons without having played the core game is for crazy people.

[977] Is four hours not enough of Bioshock 2 to play to know what Bioshock 2 is?

[978] I don't think that that duplicates enough of what the average experience is going to be for that for you to accurately judge the gameplay.

[979] I probably played about a similar four or six hours of it.

[980] Because, like I said, if you had finished that game, you would be...

[981] done with that style of gameplay.

[982] But doesn't the fact that I stopped playing it say that I was done anyway?

[983] I was done.

[984] And we aren't trying to predict what the everyman would say.

[985] We can only go from our own perspective and these dudes played Nervous Den without playing through all of Bioshock 2.

[986] And that's fine.

[987] And I feel at a...

[988] I've played the other two pieces of content here and have a feeling about those, and I cannot weigh in on this correctly because I just don't know.

[989] You tell me, do you want to play more Mass Effect or do you want to play more Bioshock?

[990] Playing more Mass Effect sounds more appealing.

[991] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.

[992] This story could be fucking phenomenal.

[993] But from the perspective I'm sitting at, I'm still like, yeah, but then I'm playing more Bioshock.

[994] I can absolutely understand the concern there.

[995] But again, the way they balance the Atom differently and you don't have to do every single protect a little sister thing that you run across.

[996] But that seems false.

[997] You didn't wind up maxing out.

[998] You didn't get every plow in it, right?

[999] No, but it was not hard enough that I needed every power that was available.

[1000] But for the way that they have built the last two Bioshock games, for you to do that, unless you had read that ahead of time, is crazy.

[1001] I definitely got everything because I was not sure what was coming out of there.

[1002] I had enough.

[1003] You never have enough plasma.

[1004] You have the wrench scenario from the first game where you figure out what works and you just go.

[1005] Yeah, but I still got every single girl.

[1006] You don't have to, though.

[1007] They make it pretty clear that you're not going to have enough Adam to get all the upgrades, and you're playing that game assuming that eventually there's going to be some upgrade that I'm going to fucking need.

[1008] That's the way that entire series has been built.

[1009] That's not how the first game was.

[1010] I mean, that is exactly how I played the first game, and that's exactly how they...

[1011] But you never needed any of it.

[1012] You yourself said that you played through that entire game with the range.

[1013] I spent it all.

[1014] But you didn't need to.

[1015] You don't have to.

[1016] That's a failing in the first Bioshock.

[1017] I mean, Minerva Zen is not very hard.

[1018] But again, that's not something you're going to know unless someone has told you that ahead of time.

[1019] If you're a perceptive player of video games, you're going to figure that out as you go through it.

[1020] No, I mean, it's short enough that you'll probably be done by the time you figure that out.

[1021] I stopped picking them all up halfway through it.

[1022] Yeah, I mean, I didn't.

[1023] And, you know, I thought some – I don't know how many of these things were in Bioshock 2.

[1024] Again, it's like the tonics.

[1025] Is that the ones that are passive?

[1026] Those were pretty cool.

[1027] There are a bunch of those things.

[1028] I don't know if this is in 2, but there's one in Healing Water.

[1029] I thought that was cool.

[1030] Yeah, that's – yeah.

[1031] So I was constantly trying to get Atom just to get all those.

[1032] I spent most of my Atom on more slots for those things.

[1033] So yeah, I was constantly just trying to get as many of those as I could.

[1034] I mean, I think I died once in that entire bit of DLC.

[1035] I mean, the story gives you all of the incinerate and the electric whatever.

[1036] You get like five or six of those just by playing through it, so you don't have to buy that stuff.

[1037] It's a more streamlined experience.

[1038] You don't hit these obstacles of having to do those activities over and over.

[1039] And, you know, like I said, it's a little short story.

[1040] It is very like Asimov kind of short little piece of science fiction from that era.

[1041] Right.

[1042] It's like some pretty classic hard sci -fi kind of stuff.

[1043] I mean, you could tell that story in about two pages and hand me that story and I'd enjoy it.

[1044] The same is true of most short stories.

[1045] It is a short piece of fiction.

[1046] But I want to play through.

[1047] Shadow Broker.

[1048] I just want to read what happened in Shadow Broker.

[1049] Yeah, but most of what happened in Shadow Broker was shooting mercenaries.

[1050] That's what I love to do.

[1051] There are better games to shoot mercs at.

[1052] But the best thing you can say about Minerva's Den's gameplay is that they've minimized the bio -shockiness of it.

[1053] It plays fine, as does Mass Effect.

[1054] I mean, neither one of those games, as we've established.

[1055] But Mass Effect, it plays better.

[1056] But not that much better.

[1057] But it does.

[1058] It's not that much better.

[1059] It's not the greatest shooter.

[1060] No, we're not talking in hyperboles.

[1061] It is better, though.

[1062] A little bit.

[1063] Yes, it is better.

[1064] It is better, but not that much better.

[1065] But it's better.

[1066] But when most...

[1067] But it's not...

[1068] Both games you still have to play.

[1069] Yes, there's story elements in both of them.

[1070] You still have to play them.

[1071] I'd say I prefer the gameplay to Mass Effect 2 over Bioshock 2's bike.

[1072] quite a bit.

[1073] I absolutely do as well.

[1074] It's not that it's a little bit better.

[1075] It's like a...

[1076] I agree with you.

[1077] I'll take taking cover and shooting in a not perfect third -person shooter over what Bioshock 2 has to do.

[1078] But until you get to the end of Shadow Broker, that's about all there is to chew on.

[1079] I think there's some great...

[1080] Great level.

[1081] Great design.

[1082] There's some great locations that you go through.

[1083] I think the story evolves nicely in that.

[1084] But I don't think there's that much.

[1085] You might be selling Minerva's then a little high on the early story stuff because it's basically just setting up the computer.

[1086] It takes some time to get going.

[1087] The last 15 minutes are the big payoff there as well.

[1088] I mean, that's the payoff, but they build it much more smoothly than Shadow Record does.

[1089] It's a bigger payoff because they, not for the story stuff, it's the character development of that guy.

[1090] And that is true.

[1091] But again, it's through mostly optional audio logs that you pick up.

[1092] And for me, and again...

[1093] My investment in Mass Effect 2, I've read the books.

[1094] I have that optional stuff already in me. So when I hit Shadow Broker, for me, that universe payoff was huge because he's a big deal in the universe.

[1095] Yeah, I totally identify.

[1096] And I just feel like you see places that you – like, yes, new locations in Minerva's Den.

[1097] But I can't shake the fact that it's still – It's still rapture.

[1098] It is still rapture.

[1099] Aesthetically, it's still going to be rapture.

[1100] Yeah, you can't really do a story in that world without that happening.

[1101] You could argue that all of Bioshock 2 is all new locations, but that's not the draw.

[1102] But you see these...

[1103] Stunning, like the apartment chase when you're doing that pursuit.

[1104] Like, that's all new areas.

[1105] Again, it's of a place that you've seen before, but it's all new areas there.

[1106] That ship, that ship is just, while I was playing it, I'm like, I can't believe what I'm seeing.

[1107] It is a very, very impressive piece of level design.

[1108] Yeah, you're taking cover and shooting dudes.

[1109] Absolutely.

[1110] But, yeah, it's fucking breathtaking.

[1111] I don't know if you guys remember, but the stuff on Ilium is not very good at all.

[1112] I kind of don't.

[1113] Like the cut scene that happens when you finally catch up to the lady you're chasing and she takes that hostage and stuff, that stuff is flat out bad.

[1114] Like the voice acting of the lady who gets taken hostage is like she's just reading lines off a page.

[1115] She's like, please, no, I have a child.

[1116] I don't remember that.

[1117] I just remember being excited about like, I saw this twist coming, you fuckers.

[1118] I knew she was bad.

[1119] I'm going to smoke you so hard.

[1120] The action there when you have to fight her and stuff is cool.

[1121] But, you know, like the voice acting and the writing and all that stuff in Minerva is absolutely top notch from start to finish.

[1122] Like you never feel like one of those characters is just like throwing it in.

[1123] There's only two characters, though.

[1124] There's your dude and there's the bad dude.

[1125] Well, and then there's the wife.

[1126] Wait, the bad dudes are in this?

[1127] There's the wife.

[1128] The wife has like two lines of dialogue.

[1129] Right, but I mean like, you know, the plight of this guy is so very roundly developed.

[1130] Yeah, but so is Shepard throughout an entire game that pays off.

[1131] I mean, this guy has, you know, 25 audio logs.

[1132] Lady Shepard.

[1133] Whatever, there's only one Shepard.

[1134] I totally understand where your love for Shadowbroker is coming from, and I share it to a large extent, but I feel like too much of it depends on your love for the original game.

[1135] Not enough is based on purely what you are doing in this add -on and the quality of what is in the add -on.

[1136] Yeah, I 100 % agree.

[1137] If you were to play Shadow Broker without playing Mass Effect 2, it would suck.

[1138] That's what I'm saying.

[1139] But you can't.

[1140] I think that is a huge quality that's important.

[1141] It's impossible.

[1142] I think that the integration is important.

[1143] I agree with you.

[1144] I just don't think that it's enough to offset the 80 or so percent of this add -on where you're just running in a straight line shooting guys and bad cut scenes are occasionally happening.

[1145] And then the last 20 minutes is fucking awesome.

[1146] But, you know, we'll go around in circles on this.

[1147] So, yeah, I'm willing to give it up for Minerva's Den just because of the – if you made the investment in Bioshock 2, if you want to love Bioshock 2 more, pay your $10 and go play this amazing piece of content.

[1148] It's a sneer vote.

[1149] Yeah.

[1150] I mean, but, again, you're doing – both games are doing the same combat.

[1151] Both games are new set pieces, but they are both – vaguely similar.

[1152] You're still in both worlds.

[1153] The story stuff, on one hand, they're just two different arguments.

[1154] There's one that you will get the self -contained thing that lives on its own that will not really enrich the world that much.

[1155] That world's dead.

[1156] The world that you are enriching there is the world of Andrew Ryan who died in the first game.

[1157] It is not the world of Bioshock 2.

[1158] I'll say right now, I mean, you can tell how much I like this add -on.

[1159] I hope they don't ever do anything in Rapture again.

[1160] I hope this is it.

[1161] Well, I'm not even saying that.

[1162] I'm like, this is purely a Bioshock 1 play.

[1163] Right.

[1164] Because you are referencing stuff in Andrew Ryan's time, not even having played Bioshock 2.

[1165] There's a fair amount of that in Bioshock 2.

[1166] Of referencing Andrew Ryan?

[1167] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1168] Well, yeah, I got through the museum and all that stuff, which was cool.

[1169] This is like, yeah, this stuff is no Sophia Lam stuff, I think, at all.

[1170] Well, they mentioned her a couple times.

[1171] And a lot of her story.

[1172] There's a lot of ties to Andrew Ryan stuff.

[1173] It's reasonably well done in Bioshock.

[1174] The way that you find some Andrew Ryan logs in this thing, that happens in the basic game, too.

[1175] So, I guess my point being that, like...

[1176] It didn't seem to enrich anything that was happening that would play back into Bioshock 2.

[1177] In terms of the drama, I totally agree.

[1178] Even the narrative.

[1179] It's really just about this dude.

[1180] And this computer, which you've never heard of, right?

[1181] The tie -ins.

[1182] The tie -ins, like I said, are just like it fleshes out a little bit of what makes Rapture tick that you haven't seen before.

[1183] That stuff is incidental to what is the best part of this.

[1184] So you have that, and you have this kind of little self -contained story that is a pleasure to play through.

[1185] And then you have the Mass Effect one, which is...

[1186] uh, this, you know, kind of star on top of the Christmas tree.

[1187] If you've already kind of, you know, trim the whole thing.

[1188] So like, it's great.

[1189] The whole, the whole package is great.

[1190] So it kind of, it's, it's weird.

[1191] Cause it kind of depends what you want more.

[1192] It sounds like you want the little self -contained.

[1193] I want to love Bioshock again.

[1194] I want the.

[1195] No, give me more Mass Effect 2 because that is what I want.

[1196] I just want a great add -on.

[1197] So if you want a great add -on, you should add on to Mass Effect 2's content.

[1198] As opposed to requiring you to own Bioshock 2 to buy this thing that probably would be better as a standalone sale.

[1199] As opposed to you would pay $60 for Minerva's Den and you get Bioshock 2 with it.

[1200] That game is so cheap now that buying it and this add -on would be worth it.

[1201] I don't think we can...

[1202] take occasional price discounts and stuff like that into account.

[1203] It gets kind of crazy.

[1204] That's what I mean in theory.

[1205] So anyway, we could probably remain on this category forever.

[1206] I think Minerva's Den is a fantastic piece of content.

[1207] If you own Bioshock 2, you should go get it, I guess.

[1208] Seeing how strong you feel about it is what is swaying me. It's probably the one category in these awards that I care enough to sit here pissing you guys off for hours.

[1209] Civ 5 PC.

[1210] Congratulations, Lair of the Shadow Broker.

[1211] So yeah, Minerva's Den is fantastic.

[1212] If you own Mass Effect 2, you've already had a great time.

[1213] You should continue to have a great time with Shadow Broker if you own Bioshock 2 and thought it was uh -uh.

[1214] It's worth your time to go check out Minerva's Den.

[1215] And I'm totally willing to give it up for Minerva's Den.

[1216] It's great.

[1217] Unless you guys want to introduce a dark horse and give it to Super Tofu Boy.

[1218] It's not.

[1219] No. All right.

[1220] No. So let's move on.

[1221] Yes, let's.

[1222] Okay.

[1223] That was the first one for today.

[1224] I'm exhausted.

[1225] Oh, man. Look what you did.

[1226] All right.

[1227] That was an hour.

[1228] Let's get moving.

[1229] It's a fight worth having.

[1230] They're both great.

[1231] And they're both $10.

[1232] Yeah.

[1233] I mean, like I said, you could make a...

[1234] Good argument.

[1235] This is the strongest category on this list.

[1236] It's a tough one.

[1237] Well, for best co -op, we also have it already down to three games, unless anyone has some things to bring in.

[1238] I wanted to mention a few.

[1239] Why don't you read what you have?

[1240] Okay.

[1241] We started here with Halo Reach, Lara Croft Guardian of Light, and Splinter Cell Conviction.

[1242] I'm sorry.

[1243] Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell Conviction.

[1244] Don't want to leave out all that clance.

[1245] I'll be right back.

[1246] Okay.

[1247] Vinny's got to bounce for a minute here.

[1248] Okay.

[1249] What do you have to add?

[1250] I just wanted to chat out a couple of co -ops, see what we think.

[1251] Okay.

[1252] See if they topple the list at all.

[1253] Army 2, 40th day?

[1254] No. No. Okay.

[1255] That was it?

[1256] No. I'm just kind of moving down the list here to see if there's anything else that jumps out.

[1257] Was there anything cooperative about Bad Company 2?

[1258] Or was that just a single player?

[1259] No, it's single player and multiplayer.

[1260] Okay, those are split up.

[1261] Got it.

[1262] Got it.

[1263] There was nothing there.

[1264] Now you guys don't.

[1265] So, Halo Reach.

[1266] That was pretty good.

[1267] With other people?

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] That's kind of it, right?

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] Unless Ryan wants to make a really big fight for Splinter Cell Conviction.

[1272] I like Splinter Cell Conviction, but I mean...

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] I kind of didn't...

[1275] Yeah, I didn't play that mode.

[1276] The co -op was not...

[1277] You guys didn't seem too excited about it.

[1278] He did.

[1279] I loved it.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] I bought the DLC they put up.

[1282] Hey, wait a minute.

[1283] DLC for that.

[1284] Hold the phone!

[1285] I'll see you guys later.

[1286] Actually, I'm going to go too.

[1287] Crack open Dave's note.

[1288] It'll probably solve this category.

[1289] No, I'm happy with Halo for that.

[1290] Crack down two.

[1291] Four players.

[1292] No. Crack down two.

[1293] Kane and Lynch, two dog days.

[1294] Oh, yeah.

[1295] That co -op that didn't even have an icon on screen to let you know that the other player had gone down and you needed to go save them.

[1296] What a well done.

[1297] Co -op mode.

[1298] Mafia 2.

[1299] They didn't have co -op mode.

[1300] I don't know.

[1301] I don't know.

[1302] One player plays as Nolan North.

[1303] The other plays as Nolan North.

[1304] Civilization 5.

[1305] That's competitive.

[1306] Yeah, that's...

[1307] Yeah, I mean, you know, Reach is co -op.

[1308] What is even the list besides Reach?

[1309] Lara Croft Guardian.

[1310] Right, right, right.

[1311] And Splinter Cell Convection.

[1312] Okay.

[1313] you know i mean reaches co -op it is very much in the mold of previous halos but it is extremely well done i mean it's the way to play through the campaign you know it's that campaign gets a little hairy yeah it gets a little hairy but also gets a little uh it gets just drag a bit at the end so if you've got other players there to have fun on a voice uh chat uh you will talk your way through the Slow parts.

[1314] Or repetitive parts.

[1315] Or let's say if you have one extra player to charge ahead to the checkpoint.

[1316] Also not a bad idea.

[1317] And then everybody else can just kind of die.

[1318] Or keep everybody busy.

[1319] I might say that the co -op in Fable 3 was pretty good, but then Fable 3 is still fucking good.

[1320] It's like strong co -op in a bad game.

[1321] It would be like a good add -on for a middling game.

[1322] I'm not even going to bother.

[1323] Fucking hate you.

[1324] Halo Reach.

[1325] Best cooperative game of 2010.

[1326] Yeah.

[1327] We'll mention that to Vinny when he gets back.

[1328] I'm sure he'll be fine with that.

[1329] Best download only game.

[1330] We have...

[1331] What do we have, Jeff?

[1332] Pac -Man Championship Edition DX.

[1333] Limbo.

[1334] Super Meat Boy.

[1335] Joe Danger.

[1336] Anyone got anything to add to that?

[1337] I kind of like Pinball FX 2, but not enough to topple.

[1338] Also, is that a game, really?

[1339] I don't know how you use it.

[1340] Yeah, it classifies weird.

[1341] But Pinball FX 2, if you just counted it as the four tables that you buy that are new to Pinball FX 2, if you were to count that as the core pack, which is kind of how it is, I think that would be an acceptable.

[1342] way to classify it without bringing in all the pinball effects one stuff that that's not counting the marvel stuff it's not counting the marvel stuff though you could also count marvel pinball because it was a standalone release on ps3 but uh i do like those tables but i just it's not there's still something off about the entire zen studios pinball physics thing that that uh that rubs me the wrong way license havoc next time Oh God, that pipe is leaking everywhere.

[1343] It actually is condensation.

[1344] Is it?

[1345] That pipe is ice cold.

[1346] Oh, really?

[1347] Yeah, and it's super hot in this room, and so all of our funk is collecting.

[1348] There's a lot of funk.

[1349] Yeah, other downloadable games include VVVVV.

[1350] So I'm just going to write down.

[1351] I'm just going to write that down.

[1352] I'm just going to write that down here.

[1353] Okay.

[1354] Because that game is kick -ass.

[1355] I'm trying to jog my memory here.

[1356] Is polynomial any good?

[1357] No, not really.

[1358] It looks very nice, but it is not a good game.

[1359] You're not buying that to play it as a game.

[1360] You're buying that to fly around and go, whoa!

[1361] It's kind of cool.

[1362] So we are pretty categorically of the opinion that Comic Jumpers should be a better game.

[1363] Yeah, yeah.

[1364] The category says it's best download only game.

[1365] We'll have our FMV award later.

[1366] Fair enough.

[1367] We've got a place to nominate Comic Jumper for the things that it does incredibly well.

[1368] Monday Night Combat.

[1369] I like it a lot.

[1370] I don't know that it...

[1371] You know what download -only game I loved the shit out of, and I almost feel like invoking Brad's argument for Bioshock here, is Dead Rising 2.

[1372] Oh, God.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] Shit.

[1375] I have all 200 points in that, and I played a couple hours of Dead Rising 2 and just fell out of interest in that so quickly.

[1376] I feel like Dead Rising 2 had a lot of issues, but...

[1377] Most of those problems I also had with Case Zero.

[1378] Yeah, but you don't have to put up with it for as long.

[1379] Yeah, that's kind of a...

[1380] You get done with it before they can really piss you off.

[1381] But it lets you get to the good parts more quickly.

[1382] There's not the psychos to deal with, which it seems like...

[1383] It is a pretty big sticking point with Dead Rising 2.

[1384] You're right.

[1385] No one likes that.

[1386] Did you finish Case Zero?

[1387] They're not well done.

[1388] I did not finish it.

[1389] There's only one psycho in Case Zero, and he is not as bad as any of the ones in the main game.

[1390] He's not that hard to kill.

[1391] It's still kind of stupid, but...

[1392] Puzzle Quest 2.

[1393] That was quite good.

[1394] It was.

[1395] Risk Factions was pretty good.

[1396] Risk Factions, yeah.

[1397] What did I miss?

[1398] Nothing.

[1399] Risk Factions, what do you think?

[1400] Best Co -op.

[1401] We started with the list that we came up with earlier of Halo Reach, Lara Croft, Guardian of Light, and Splinter Cell Conviction, and we're just going to pick Halo Reach.

[1402] Okay.

[1403] Hey, is this crazy stuff going on in the office?

[1404] Is it all crazy out there?

[1405] You thought it was crazy in here.

[1406] Are there pipes leaking out there too?

[1407] No, but there's comedy getting set up.

[1408] Oh, God, that's right.

[1409] There's a bunch of stand -up comedy happening in the bar.

[1410] And lights and microphones.

[1411] There's crazy stuff going on.

[1412] Yeah, they're filming it for Comedy Central.

[1413] What?

[1414] Yeah?

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] All right.

[1417] For Comedy Central's website, jokes .com.

[1418] Yeah, yeah.

[1419] It's not.

[1420] Well, so I just did my bit, and I thought it went all right.

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] Eight -minute chunk on Minerva's Den.

[1423] Yeah, it was all right.

[1424] Minerva's Den, more like poo -mervas.

[1425] What else is there?

[1426] What else?

[1427] Anybody play Minerva's Den out there?

[1428] Anybody?

[1429] Am I Denny's?

[1430] So we're on download -only game.

[1431] All right.

[1432] Okay, we've been extending this list out a bit.

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] And here's what we have thus far.

[1435] Oh, yeah.

[1436] Pac -Man Championship Edition DX.

[1437] Okay.

[1438] Limbo.

[1439] Yep.

[1440] Super Meat Boy.

[1441] Yep.

[1442] Joe Danger.

[1443] That's a great one.

[1444] Makes its triumphant return.

[1445] Monday Night Combat.

[1446] That's a good one.

[1447] Dead Rising 2 K -Zero.

[1448] Oh, yeah.

[1449] Puzzle Quest 2.

[1450] Puzzle Quest 2 is good.

[1451] All right.

[1452] And Quake Arena Arcade.

[1453] Afterburner Climax.

[1454] Dude, that's not a terrible game.

[1455] It is not a terrible game, but it's not top three.

[1456] That shit's awesome, right?

[1457] It is awesome for the amount of time we spent playing it for a quick look and maybe another ten minutes.

[1458] How was...

[1459] The Hydra Thunder, not on this list.

[1460] It's cool.

[1461] It's pretty good.

[1462] It's cool, but yeah, it's not going to make this list.

[1463] And what was the little Bit Hero?

[1464] Is that download only?

[1465] Yeah, the BitTrip games.

[1466] No, not BitTrip.

[1467] Oh, 3D Dot Game Heroes?

[1468] Yeah, that's a disc.

[1469] That's a disc.

[1470] How do we define this category?

[1471] Because arguably everything on the PC is downloadable now.

[1472] That's why it's download only.

[1473] Because that eliminates...

[1474] A lot of games are.

[1475] That eliminates a lot of the...

[1476] Like, does the pricing factor into this?

[1477] Because, you know...

[1478] Well, we are looking to...

[1479] We are looking for the smaller games, as it were.

[1480] That's my question, because you get into stuff like Amnesia, which is more expensive and kind of more of a full game.

[1481] And isn't that available on disc in Germany or, you know, some weird land?

[1482] I don't know.

[1483] I bet some of this other stuff is available.

[1484] I mean, I just want to clarify.

[1485] We want this category to be for the stuff that's coming out on PlayStation Network, Xbox Live Arcade, and there's also the smaller games on Steam.

[1486] We're basically talking $10 to $15 kind of stuff.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] Would you try and fit that on lower 30s?

[1489] Yeah, we need it.

[1490] Oh, I know.

[1491] I just want to clarify.

[1492] So that's why we want download only, because everything on PC is downloadable these days.

[1493] Right, right, right.

[1494] And we don't want.

[1495] Call of Duty to end up on this list.

[1496] It's not the point of the category.

[1497] So this might not be the greatest name for it.

[1498] But you get it.

[1499] You get what's going on.

[1500] That's where we're trying to go.

[1501] So that's a good list.

[1502] Risk Factions is the only other one that I can think of.

[1503] I'll write it down.

[1504] I'm trying to think back on the year in PSN and I'm not coming up with it.

[1505] Tear Over was pretty cool.

[1506] Last year was much stronger on PSN.

[1507] Dead Nation was not very good.

[1508] It's like BeatSketcher and some of the move stuff they put out was all right.

[1509] I'm pulling up a list.

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] Of just the...

[1512] Just PSN releases.

[1513] I don't know.

[1514] It seems like we have our top three in that list already somewhere.

[1515] You're probably right.

[1516] Maybe we could be missing something.

[1517] I just want to make sure, due diligence, all that.

[1518] Did Guardian of Light make this?

[1519] Oh.

[1520] We should write that down.

[1521] That's a great game.

[1522] That's definitely not like that didn't release on.

[1523] No, certainly not.

[1524] I disagree that it is a great game.

[1525] It's worth a mention for sure.

[1526] I don't know if I'll necessarily throw that into the nominees, but it's worth a mention.

[1527] Flower?

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] No, it says game right in the category name.

[1530] We do want to make sure we're picking games.

[1531] Stop it.

[1532] Stop it!

[1533] So no Minecraft for this category?

[1534] I just don't...

[1535] I mean, none of us would put it on the three.

[1536] I think we should really...

[1537] If we say we're going to talk about it, then we can't talk about it if it ever comes out.

[1538] If we were going to talk about it now, then when they say, hey, Minecraft's out, we have to say it's done.

[1539] I think the game is done after this.

[1540] I think the second that they start charging for it, it's out.

[1541] But you wouldn't say the same thing about Frozen Synapse or something where they were charging for the beta.

[1542] It would also be unfair to review Minecraft, right?

[1543] He has not put out the copy that he wants evaluated for Final Judgment.

[1544] Well, but if a review is purchasing advice and he is asking money in exchange for his product, like you were essentially telling people...

[1545] I mean, it's the same argument of like, oh, reviewing Final Fantasy XIV on day one.

[1546] Dad, don't do that.

[1547] But that's the game that they're selling.

[1548] Yeah, like...

[1549] He's selling that game.

[1550] People are putting down money for this product.

[1551] You need to tell them if it's worth doing that or not.

[1552] It's out under this pretense of it's a beta, we're still working on it, or actually it's about to go beta.

[1553] I more think of it as a discount and you're in the beta.

[1554] You pre -ordered it.

[1555] You pre -ordered it and you're in the beta.

[1556] Is it going to cost more when it goes final?

[1557] It's about to cost more as of the 20th.

[1558] And also anyone that buys it once it goes beta will not have guaranteed lifetime updates.

[1559] What?

[1560] Oh, see, I thought getting it now was your purchase.

[1561] It's the alpha right now.

[1562] If you buy it during alpha, then it's lifetime updates because that's what he agreed to.

[1563] And now he's realizing that there's going to be all this money to be made on add -ons once the final game is out.

[1564] This is messed up.

[1565] I feel like he's just hiding behind semantics now.

[1566] But he's being very clear about what the rules are.

[1567] It's not like he's pulling the rug out from other people.

[1568] He's saying, hey, the price is going to double on December 20th forever.

[1569] Yeah, permanently.

[1570] Sonic game?

[1571] It might go up again.

[1572] Downloadable Sonic one?

[1573] I haven't played it.

[1574] Sonic 4?

[1575] Yeah.

[1576] I'm just going to say no. Okay.

[1577] Yes.

[1578] Yes, that's a big one.

[1579] From what I've played, so.

[1580] There's a PS2 game.

[1581] Going down this PSN list here.

[1582] Yeah, I didn't see anything else.

[1583] I really did like Tear Over.

[1584] Oh, you know what?

[1585] PixelJunk Racer's second lap is not going to make that at all.

[1586] Barman Lab Battlefest.

[1587] Raystorm HD is not going to...

[1588] I don't want to fuck up this category, but I guess Sam and Max, The Devil's Playhouse.

[1589] Can't you buy that on disc?

[1590] That is...

[1591] They sell it on disc.

[1592] If we can get that in there, it's a great game, but I don't think it...

[1593] It's not in the spirit.

[1594] Space Invaders Infinity Gene.

[1595] Didn't that come out on like...

[1596] It came out on like an iPad last year.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] But it's not like we were giving.

[1599] Angry Birds, anyone?

[1600] No, thanks.

[1601] Puzzle Agent now.

[1602] Filly Blade.

[1603] Do you want to talk about Puzzle Agent?

[1604] Thexter Neo.

[1605] No. Whatever.

[1606] It's not going to be any of these.

[1607] None of these games are going to be the top three.

[1608] We have to look at a list.

[1609] What are we doing?

[1610] Yeah.

[1611] Let's just.

[1612] Our due diligence has been done.

[1613] Let's break it down.

[1614] Let's make this three.

[1615] I feel like I have to say I really did enjoy a lot of things about Tear Over.

[1616] Okay.

[1617] But it was also kind of messed up in some spots.

[1618] Hints of developers, start your game with double A and then we'll go down our list.

[1619] Start your game title with 1942.

[1620] I'm going with chronological order.

[1621] There you go.

[1622] Just throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing.

[1623] okay so aardvark released january 1st the list we have is pac -man championship edition dx limbo super meat boy joe danger monday night combat dead rising 2 case zero Puzzle Quest 2, Risk Factions, Lyra Croft, Guardian of Light, and Costume Quest.

[1624] Sounds like the first three times.

[1625] It sounds like Pac -Man, Super Meat Boy, and V...

[1626] Or maybe Joe Danger.

[1627] Or maybe Dead Rising.

[1628] Or maybe not Limbo.

[1629] See where this is going.

[1630] This is when I start to feel dirty about these awards.

[1631] I just don't think Limbo is a great game.

[1632] I feel like this is the point where we need to start doing, I will trade you Mediterranean or Baltic Avenue for Limbo.

[1633] I will trade you Australia.

[1634] All right.

[1635] Let's see your Limbo.

[1636] Let's start at the bottom here and say, are these games going to stay on the list and at least see if we can narrow it down a little bit.

[1637] Costume Quest.

[1638] It's those four.

[1639] I mean, that's the conversation.

[1640] You think it's what, the top four?

[1641] You want to kill Risk Factions that easily?

[1642] Yeah.

[1643] Wait, would you really put Joe Danger over Case Zero?

[1644] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1645] No, I mean, I think it's the first three and v -v -v -v.

[1646] I think that's the conversation to be had here.

[1647] You wouldn't put Case Zero over any of those?

[1648] No. You wouldn't put Risk Factions in that awesome robot head?

[1649] I never got the robot head because I kept getting beat by the robot.

[1650] So I'm going to cut Costume Quest.

[1651] I'm going to cut Lara Croft.

[1652] I'm going to cut Risk Factions.

[1653] I'm going to cut Puzzle Quest 2.

[1654] Well, that came out on a card, actually.

[1655] Good point.

[1656] Good point.

[1657] There you go.

[1658] I'm going to cut Monday Night Combat.

[1659] Yep.

[1660] Yeah.

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] It's great, but yeah.

[1663] We have Pac -Man, Limbo, Meat Boy, Joe Danger, and Dead Rising 2.

[1664] I do like Joe Danger a lot.

[1665] I think it might be a little outclassed by some of these other games.

[1666] Yeah.

[1667] I think it's one of the real bright spots for PSN for this year.

[1668] For sure.

[1669] I think that it was fucking foolish of Microsoft to pass on Joe Danger.

[1670] Maybe for a monkey.

[1671] Just because of the trials comparison.

[1672] It's a very different game.

[1673] It's a very different game.

[1674] But, yeah, this is Fast Company.

[1675] All right.

[1676] So that's a four.

[1677] So what do you guys think about it?

[1678] I don't know.

[1679] You know, I saw you play it a bunch, and I actually played it a little bit, but I haven't spent that much time with it.

[1680] I think it's great in concept.

[1681] I didn't play it.

[1682] I've got it right here.

[1683] I can just load it up.

[1684] It's just crazy.

[1685] I will tell you in real time.

[1686] I've seen it.

[1687] I sat in on the quick look for it, and it just does not resonate for me. It looks like a Commodore 64 screen.

[1688] Yeah, okay.

[1689] All right.

[1690] Get some volume on here.

[1691] All right.

[1692] B is the action key.

[1693] Oh, Jesus Christ.

[1694] All right, that's pretty good.

[1695] Oh, man. Or the space bar.

[1696] It's the secret lab.

[1697] That's where you can turn on, like...

[1698] Should I just continue?

[1699] Yeah.

[1700] This is a...

[1701] This is categorically unfair.

[1702] I'm actually bringing the game into the room.

[1703] Hey, you want to play some distractions?

[1704] Well, that's pretty good.

[1705] I'll remind you.

[1706] It's not bad.

[1707] It's just...

[1708] You fight the cats.

[1709] Remember the cats?

[1710] And they're at the bottom of the screen.

[1711] They have guns.

[1712] You know what?

[1713] I never actually made it past the initial training section of the single player.

[1714] This shit is crazy.

[1715] What is going on?

[1716] You know the level where the volcano keeps going on?

[1717] They destroyed me. Oh, but that's so good.

[1718] You've got to get those.

[1719] I couldn't get past it.

[1720] It would just kill me every time.

[1721] I'm also not very good at Risk.

[1722] But I think that was one of those, like...

[1723] So that's the thing.

[1724] You don't jump.

[1725] You flip.

[1726] It's one of those pleasant surprises, like, I thought, like, oh, Risk spin -off game from EA.

[1727] This will just be a shitty cash -in.

[1728] It's like, no, it's got great character, and it's funny.

[1729] It's got a story.

[1730] It's got an interesting, weird story.

[1731] And it also still just has fucking Risk in it.

[1732] And it's got the great, like, Girl Who Swallowed the Fly story.

[1733] Also, it's kind of a Metroidvania thing in that you can sort of go anywhere.

[1734] Don't tell me that.

[1735] It's not really item collection based, though.

[1736] This is pretty awesome.

[1737] How much is this?

[1738] It's like three bucks or something.

[1739] I'm gonna have to go buy this.

[1740] Fuck B -B -B -B -B -B.

[1741] I'm pretty excited now I have played all of the top four.

[1742] This is pretty awesome, I have to say.

[1743] Alright, I may have seen enough.

[1744] There's dialogue taking place.

[1745] Oh god.

[1746] Wait, that thing doesn't evaporate, does it?

[1747] Nope.

[1748] Yes.

[1749] All right, we have to keep this movie.

[1750] Also, that music's pretty good, huh?

[1751] It's pretty good.

[1752] It was better when it was matched up with Pac -Man Championship Edition DX music.

[1753] It kind of was.

[1754] I'll come across this table.

[1755] It was a good blend.

[1756] It enhanced it.

[1757] Also, Super Meat Boy has fantastic music.

[1758] It does.

[1759] There you go.

[1760] Man, that is pretty awesome.

[1761] So if you're going to make a downloadable game, put good music in it.

[1762] If you're going to make a game, think about putting it.

[1763] If you're going to make something, make it good.

[1764] Yeah, and put good music in it.

[1765] Good call.

[1766] You know, it didn't have great music.

[1767] Limbo.

[1768] Limbo.

[1769] It was a visual symphony.

[1770] It was music for the eyes.

[1771] Well, whatever.

[1772] I mean, I think the sound design was exactly what it needed to be in that game.

[1773] That's true.

[1774] That's true.

[1775] Minimal.

[1776] I kind of actively don't like Case Zero and sort of think that we should cut it.

[1777] I thought we did.

[1778] Did we not?

[1779] No, we didn't yet.

[1780] But yeah, we should.

[1781] I wouldn't be opposed to that.

[1782] That's going to leave us with Pac -Man, which obviously is going to stay.

[1783] Limbo.

[1784] Super Meat Boy, which is obviously going to stay.

[1785] And...

[1786] How many?

[1787] Are those five?

[1788] That's four.

[1789] Okay.

[1790] No, no. Vs. Six.

[1791] Six.

[1792] Six Vs. One for each character.

[1793] Or something.

[1794] I believe that's the case.

[1795] What?

[1796] I think it's just...

[1797] Because you're rescuing other characters.

[1798] I know it's not just like three W's, man. Maybe it's woo -woo -woo.

[1799] It's just www.

[1800] And it's just a website.

[1801] And if you beat the game...

[1802] You get the rest of the web address.

[1803] Trying to save the rest of the letters for this website.

[1804] It's V -V -V -V.

[1805] You guys are ruining the story of the standalone add -on.

[1806] V -V -V -V -V dot hero dot com.

[1807] I like Pac -Man.

[1808] I also like Pac -Man.

[1809] Pac -Man's pretty awesome.

[1810] You know what's good?

[1811] Pac -Man.

[1812] But we need three nominees?

[1813] Yes.

[1814] We have to cut one from this list.

[1815] I'm willing to sacrifice Limbo because Pac -Man.

[1816] I don't understand the trade -off you're making.

[1817] I don't want to be involved in this Limbo fight.

[1818] I don't have any more energy.

[1819] You spent yourself on my nerves down.

[1820] So sorry, Meat Boy.

[1821] I think Meat Boy has to be on the list.

[1822] I do too.

[1823] Go at it.

[1824] I think that Limbo is not the game.

[1825] I think Limbo is better than Meat Boy.

[1826] I think Limbo is the best downloadable game of 2010.

[1827] I think Pac -Man is the best downloadable game of 2010.

[1828] I'm also realistic, so Pac -Man is the best downloadable game of 2010.

[1829] That we can agree on.

[1830] Yes, indeed.

[1831] Oh, man. Let the record show that the actual best downloadable game of 2010 is Limbo.

[1832] This is why you have your own personal top ten.

[1833] Yeah, no, I know, and Limbo's right in there, so.

[1834] But what do we put for nominees?

[1835] Oh, man. It'd be Pac -Man, Super Meat Boy, and Vivoo.

[1836] 50 % of Giant Bomb is of the opinion that Limbo is the best downloadable game.

[1837] Well, keep in mind that, you know, Vivoo made the best PC -only game, and Limbo's not going to make best Xbox 360 -only, so.

[1838] We'll hold up now.

[1839] You haven't looked at the list of Xbox 360 only games.

[1840] That's true.

[1841] But we can 100 % agree that Pac -Man wins this fucking category.

[1842] Because it is sick.

[1843] They did it again?

[1844] How do you do that?

[1845] They did it better.

[1846] Yo, man, you murked them ghosts.

[1847] Congratulations to Pac -Man Championship Edition DX.

[1848] You're the best download -only game of 2010.

[1849] Our runners -up, Super Meat Boy and...

[1850] Okay.

[1851] Now I'm fine with it.

[1852] I don't care.

[1853] Because Pac -Man is sick.

[1854] As long as we have said for us personally.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] I'm still happy because fucking Pac -Man, dude.

[1857] You should really get VVV.

[1858] You should really play it.

[1859] It's fucking way cool.

[1860] I have bought it twice.

[1861] Does it have gamepad support?

[1862] No. Do I have to play it with a keyboard?

[1863] That's what it has support for right now.

[1864] You can get GamePad stuff working in it if you want.

[1865] Best Xbox 360 in the game.

[1866] Best looking game.

[1867] This is our renamed best graphics category.

[1868] which we renamed thusly to eliminate the whole do you mean technical or artistic bullshit.

[1869] How good does it look?

[1870] Does it look good?

[1871] Does it look good or what?

[1872] Do you like the way this looks?

[1873] I love the way this looks.

[1874] Now this is a category.

[1875] You're going to love the way you look.

[1876] That I think it's appropriate for Limbo to be in.

[1877] All right.

[1878] Maybe the only one.

[1879] But the list is Need for Speed Hot Pursuit.

[1880] That's a good looking game.

[1881] Limbo.

[1882] That's a good looking game.

[1883] Alan Wake.

[1884] That game looks all right.

[1885] Bayonetta.

[1886] That's all right.

[1887] Vanquish.

[1888] Split second.

[1889] Looked okay.

[1890] And do we have any other games to add?

[1891] Of course.

[1892] What do you got?

[1893] Always and always.

[1894] Heavy Rain approached this list.

[1895] I think we had it on here and cut it in preliminary.

[1896] Everyone looks weird.

[1897] I don't get that at all.

[1898] Okay.

[1899] Remember how good that game...

[1900] Remember Heavy Rain for how it was supposed to look, not for how it looked.

[1901] Remember for how they were supposed to talk.

[1902] Remember how the screenshots looked.

[1903] Yeah, exactly.

[1904] Remember those loading screens.

[1905] That's it.

[1906] I don't even remember those being...

[1907] Really?

[1908] Those close -ups?

[1909] Just saw a snake smoking for an hour?

[1910] Okay, yeah.

[1911] The close -ups of the characters are good.

[1912] Poor Enslaved would hit this list if it didn't fuck it up.

[1913] Visually, like artistically.

[1914] Like the character models.

[1915] Design, visual design.

[1916] Yeah, if it all looked as good as the cutscenes.

[1917] Well...

[1918] I think the Unreal Engine is what he's getting at here.

[1919] It runs kind of the Assassin's Creed issue.

[1920] It's like frame rate issues.

[1921] The look of the characters, but also the look of the world.

[1922] The clockwork look of the robot design.

[1923] I'm really amazed by how Need for Speed looks.

[1924] For a game, it's on paper, you say, hey, Criterion had to bust it down to 30 frames a second.

[1925] You're like, oh, man. But here's what they did with all that extra.

[1926] And they gave it the sickest lightning of any video game ever.

[1927] That's true.

[1928] That lightning perks the sky.

[1929] You do hit the occasional hitch.

[1930] You can't use that again.

[1931] You've worn that one out.

[1932] Red Dead is not making this list.

[1933] Man. I think the landscapes are phenomenal in that game.

[1934] It's got scope.

[1935] Yes, I think Rockstar still needs to work on its character animation a lot.

[1936] It's kind of got that...

[1937] Characters have still got a decent amount of Deadeye going on.

[1938] Yeah, it's got a little Uncharted.

[1939] So are we okay with cutting split second?

[1940] Yeah.

[1941] I do like the stuff it does with blowing up buildings and falling stuff.

[1942] And they have a great sense of speed, and the motion blur stuff is really good.

[1943] The way they are able to frame the shots so that you are able to pay attention to what you're racing on and still see the crazy shit going on in the background.

[1944] I just don't think it makes top three.

[1945] No, I agree.

[1946] I agree.

[1947] I really like the way Blur looked.

[1948] I don't know if it's going to make a top three contender, but I'd like to give props for officially stunning game.

[1949] I feel like we cut that in Super Meat Boy and preliminaries.

[1950] I like Blur.

[1951] Blur is a fun -looking game.

[1952] You know, I really do like the look of Vanquish, but I don't think it stands.

[1953] On this list.

[1954] I mean, Vanquish is pure effect.

[1955] Vanquish is pure like crazy particles flying off your dude's back and the way shit looks when you're rocketing around the levels.

[1956] The way his helmet pops away so he can smoke cigarettes.

[1957] Increasing the field of view like 40 degrees when you get rocket legs.

[1958] Yeah, it's impressive.

[1959] That stuff's cool.

[1960] But it's fucking robots.

[1961] Yeah.

[1962] Okay.

[1963] But that does have, like when that ship comes crashing down.

[1964] They're neat looking robots.

[1965] Don't just say it's robots because the robots look great.

[1966] They're good looking robots.

[1967] They're good.

[1968] There are moments of scale in that which are insane.

[1969] That's for sure.

[1970] So we're currently at Need for Speed, Limbo, Alan Wake, and Bayonetta.

[1971] I think top two belong on the list.

[1972] Yeah.

[1973] I don't know about Bayonetta.

[1974] I would almost say Bayonetta over Alan Wake, but I don't know.

[1975] I think Alan Wake did a more, like you could look at Alan Wake and say, oh, that's interesting.

[1976] That's good looking.

[1977] I like what they did there.

[1978] And it's like atmospheric.

[1979] It is the atmosphere.

[1980] Whereas Bayonetta is more just kind of the crazy.

[1981] It's just it's fucking your eye holes with graphics.

[1982] It's most graphics.

[1983] We have more graphics than any other game.

[1984] 20%.

[1985] I just want to say it.

[1986] I don't know if that necessarily hits this list, but Kirby's Epic Yarn.

[1987] Oh, yeah, you know.

[1988] We're talking like the look of a game.

[1989] Talking artistic or technical?

[1990] I'm talking both.

[1991] Actually, I mean, it totally wins on both there.

[1992] Like the ability to convey a sense of texture the way that they do?

[1993] Yeah, that might be our third.

[1994] I would feel more strongly about that than Bayonetta or Alan Wake.

[1995] I think Alan Wake does do good stuff with lighting and that sort of stuff.

[1996] And how do we feel about Call of Duty Black Ops?

[1997] I mean, I think it's easy to take for granted, but the scenes with Reznov where he's talking to you with his sweaty fucking face.

[1998] Like any time that they square off with a dude.

[1999] It just looks like wet plastic.

[2000] See, I don't get that.

[2001] But like whenever they square you off with a dude, like you're just talking to someone, I feel like those scenes are sold so perfectly.

[2002] Sunglasses.

[2003] Best sunglasses.

[2004] Except for sunglasses.

[2005] I don't know.

[2006] It looks very derivative to me. I think it's easy to, like, just because that game moves so fast.

[2007] And that's one of the best looking things about it is they've got that frame rate up there.

[2008] But any time you stop and look at anything, it...

[2009] it starts to kind of fall apart.

[2010] I don't think it's taken for granted.

[2011] I think we talked about the other games in the Call of Duty franchise's best graphics and stuff.

[2012] Just one more that I want to say.

[2013] And the other thing is that Treyarch does great explosions and fire, which last year's Call of Duty game didn't necessarily have.

[2014] So there is that.

[2015] Flamethrowers.

[2016] Yeah, exactly.

[2017] Good flames.

[2018] Yeah, there's good fire.

[2019] So they do do that stuff really well, but I don't know that it...

[2020] Man, Kirby.

[2021] One more to say, and then we can get down to deliberations.

[2022] No, just keep going.

[2023] Pac -Man Championship Edition DX.

[2024] Nah, I thought about it, and then, yeah.

[2025] Fucker, yeah.

[2026] All right, that's fine.

[2027] Is Tron doing anything for anybody?

[2028] There are some things in Tron that I really like.

[2029] They do some good stuff, mostly in cut scenes, where your guy's really reflective.

[2030] And nothing else in the Tron universe reflects that way.

[2031] So with your just big helmet, you're seeing characters' faces in it and stuff like that.

[2032] In the engine?

[2033] During cut scenes and stuff.

[2034] You play Daft Punk?

[2035] Yeah, you basically are one of the dudes from Daft Punk.

[2036] See, if they just made that co -op game and you just play as the Daft Punk robots, that'd be...

[2037] They are in the computer.

[2038] They are in there.

[2039] They're right there.

[2040] They are in the movie.

[2041] Man, if it was the movie we were talking about here, that would...

[2042] win this category yeah um but yeah i don't tron tron's big issue visually is i feel like it just uses the same flip out animation over and over again so anytime you jump out of a light cycle it's the same thing and you've just got your three hit disc combo and he flips the same way every time you do it and that's the stuff that that kind of starts to to grate on you over time.

[2043] I think that Hot Pursuit, Limbo, and Kirby are a solid three.

[2044] I just also wanted to say that a deeply flawed game and very uneven visuals, I still fucking loved the way Canal Edge 2 looked.

[2045] I thought that that game delivered on that premise and just the severity of that look just unmatched.

[2046] Just the entirety of it.

[2047] Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[2048] But there's too much stuff that looks janky up close and just too much stuff that looks bad texture -wise and stuff like that.

[2049] I mean, you can tell that they're covering a lot of stuff with their video effects, but they don't cover all of it.

[2050] No, no, no. And I'm not interested in making the argument for this list.

[2051] I just want to say I...

[2052] I loved the way that game looked.

[2053] Yeah, definitely.

[2054] I don't think anyone else has approached that kind of handheld feel in a video game.

[2055] Even films.

[2056] You compare that to Cloverfield or something where they try and do the same concept.

[2057] I think that Cailin's too as good an example of that as anything.

[2058] You know what's kind of sad?

[2059] What's up?

[2060] Gran Turismo doesn't have a shot at me. I feel like that was another game that was on this list.

[2061] Yeah, I feel like that has every right to have, you know, good -looking cars.

[2062] It should have been amazing.

[2063] In some alternate universe, it wins this category.

[2064] But the standard cars and the way the damage kind of looks.

[2065] It's how inconsistent it is, right?

[2066] That should have been like a super slick package with amazing cars.

[2067] The snow and dirt effects coming up just don't look right.

[2068] I mean.

[2069] But.

[2070] Leaves the door wide open for Need for Speed to drive right through.

[2071] More like Forza, right?

[2072] Well, for this year.

[2073] Because of the stuff in that.

[2074] I think there are some things that Gran Turismo 5 visually does better than Need for Speed.

[2075] It's car models.

[2076] It's 200 really amazing cars, right?

[2077] But overall, yeah.

[2078] I really do like the look.

[2079] I mean, I haven't seen enough Kirby, but the look of Need for Speed made me go buy that game.

[2080] The thing looked amazing.

[2081] Kirby looks astounding, but I think Need for Speed probably.

[2082] I haven't seen enough Kirby.

[2083] Takes the category.

[2084] I think you can kind of look at Kirby for about two minutes, right?

[2085] You get the basic idea.

[2086] flip it around.

[2087] It's not just like screenshots.

[2088] It is things like line movement and the way that when you go underneath the felt buildings and there's kind of that little lump of where Kirby is.

[2089] They realize that craft design so just thoroughly.

[2090] It's damned impressive.

[2091] I don't really have a fucking horse in this race, one or the other.

[2092] I think these are all terrific looking games.

[2093] Well, I guess Limbo and Kirby kind of are terrific -looking games for similar reasons.

[2094] Yeah, that's design.

[2095] That's art. That's not necessarily we made a sick engine.

[2096] I feel pretty good about where we're at with this category because it's not just some polygon race.

[2097] Right, right.

[2098] None of it is.

[2099] It is not most graphics.

[2100] Hot Pursuit is the graphics technical and the other two are the graphics artistic.

[2101] But even Hot Pursuit.

[2102] If you were purely looking at Need for Speed from a technical perspective, you would weigh the frame rate a lot more heavily against it.

[2103] It really is.

[2104] The weather effects and the way the wet road looks.

[2105] And camera placement when you crash and stuff like that.

[2106] It's always in the best angle.

[2107] Yeah, it's always like that car is flying at you or away from you in a way that when I was doing the quick look, just scrubbing through, I was like, this looks photorealistic.

[2108] There's definitely an art to what they've done with that.

[2109] I think Limbo has the most cohesive appearance.

[2110] Like not just the graphics, but even down to stuff like the font choices.

[2111] I love the way that game looks.

[2112] Down to making it look like a silent film.

[2113] Yeah.

[2114] Down to the...

[2115] There's a flicker to it.

[2116] Down to the vignetting.

[2117] It's even...

[2118] I didn't go to film school.

[2119] I don't know how to describe this stuff.

[2120] Maybe Vinny knows, but the cuts to credits and titles or whatever are very evocative of a certain style of film.

[2121] I don't remember.

[2122] I don't remember that.

[2123] Like how you'll get sort of like a hold on a scene and then it'll just sort of jump cut straight to credits.

[2124] See, I can't explain.

[2125] Are you talking about end credits or title cards?

[2126] Yeah, I mean, like even the way they cut it, like it looks sort of like someone sat down with a razor blade and like sliced the film together.

[2127] Yeah, it's got that kind of like, like that.

[2128] Like you expect there to be an audible pop because someone didn't line the holes up, you know?

[2129] Huh.

[2130] I thought Limbo, all of these games are lookers.

[2131] That's why they're in the category.

[2132] I should hope so.

[2133] I'm trying to think of like if you're just taking it on looks, what I saw that was like I need to jump into this world.

[2134] And Limbo was one of those where it sold me purely on the visual aesthetic of it.

[2135] I saw Kirby and I never picked it up.

[2136] And I saw Need for Speed and I bought it.

[2137] I think Kirby looks great, but I don't know.

[2138] Kirby seemed like very much – I always sound like when I say something against these, I'm saying this is the worst game ever.

[2139] These are the top three games we're talking about of the year.

[2140] But there was something that was new about it but also old.

[2141] Or like Nintendo.

[2142] It was very much like, all right, we did paper.

[2143] We did the kids, the watercolors.

[2144] For me, it was just kind of the – Overall difficulty of the game and stuff like that that sort of soured me on it.

[2145] And the length.

[2146] Just like whipping through that stuff pretty quickly.

[2147] Oh, it's just super easy?

[2148] But visually, that's the thing about this game.

[2149] Yeah.

[2150] But I don't know something about it.

[2151] I felt like even though I had never seen it before, I'd seen it before.

[2152] Put this out here.

[2153] No More Heroes 2?

[2154] Nah.

[2155] No?

[2156] Nah.

[2157] Epic Mickey?

[2158] Definitely not.

[2159] Good thoughts, both.

[2160] Good thoughts, Jeff.

[2161] Not for...

[2162] These are the games, I think.

[2163] I don't know.

[2164] I could go for any of the three.

[2165] Totally.

[2166] They each aspire to such completely different things.

[2167] Their areas of focus, even within the aesthetic, the design elements of it, just couldn't be more different.

[2168] There's one quality that Kirby and Limbo share to me, which is going to sound all gooey and effusive and probably off -putting, but it's almost like you forget.

[2169] when you're looking at it, that's built out of pixels.

[2170] If you look at Need for Speed, you can still see aliasing in some places.

[2171] It still looks like polygons and shaders and reflection maps and stuff.

[2172] You can still see the tech.

[2173] Yeah, totally.

[2174] Whereas Limbo and Kirby both, especially Kirby on a system that only does 480p, it just looks like moving yarn, basically.

[2175] Whatever technical tricks they're doing to eliminate those...

[2176] I know what you mean.

[2177] To eliminate the technical drawbacks, essentially, in favor of the art style.

[2178] I feel like both of those kind of transcend the hardware that they're running on.

[2179] Yeah, I guess you're right.

[2180] There's something about the animation in Limbo.

[2181] Something about character movement in that game that does not feel the way other video games feel.

[2182] Yeah, totally.

[2183] I guess I was picking.

[2184] I suppose we are picking.

[2185] In theory, Jeff.

[2186] If you had to pick.

[2187] I'd probably take Kirby.

[2188] I can go with Kirby.

[2189] When I saw that at E3, I thought it looked amazing.

[2190] Yeah.

[2191] That's a tough call.

[2192] For me, I remember the Nintendo press conference and being like, Ugh.

[2193] Ugh.

[2194] Oh, fuck.

[2195] Kirby.

[2196] Look at that.

[2197] Like, oh, fuck Kirby, and oh, fuck, look at what they're doing with Kirby.

[2198] I was almost ready to like...

[2199] I'm just going to bail out of this thing because this is not a great press conference.

[2200] But the rest of the press conference ended up going and being awesome.

[2201] But the Kirby appearance for me was the like, all right, let's keep going, Nintendo.

[2202] Yeah, when I see that game, like I said, something spectacularly new about it.

[2203] The only thing is it just seems...

[2204] Nintendo has brought it upon themselves by trying all this.

[2205] And you could have the argument that, hey, LittleBigPlanet did the crafty thing too, but I feel like Kirby, it's doubly impressive that Kirby is able to go to that same well and come up with something that still looks completely different.

[2206] And it also incorporates it into the gameplay.

[2207] More cohesive.

[2208] I think that LittleBigPlanet does...

[2209] really well with its kind of crafty style, but you do still, I feel like you do see some of that tech.

[2210] Sure.

[2211] Like, it's a lot more of the ragdoll and stuff that you have kind of seen in other games.

[2212] And LittleBigPlanet's design is a little bit scattershot.

[2213] You know, you got some burlap here, you got some blocks, like children's blocks there.

[2214] That's sort of by design.

[2215] Yeah, but I mean...

[2216] It's all patchwork.

[2217] Yeah, but when you talk about cohesion, I mean, everything in Kirby is not only made out of yarn, but everything behaves as if it's made out of yarn.

[2218] I think Kirby sounds like a...

[2219] Are you good with Kirby, Brad?

[2220] I mean, I prefer Limbo, personally, but they're both amazing -looking games.

[2221] Say it.

[2222] I'm going to say Limbo.

[2223] You guys go around the table, and I'll see where it ends up.

[2224] Kirby.

[2225] All right.

[2226] I think Kirby...

[2227] Probably takes it a little bit more than...

[2228] Like, Limbo is 2D silhouette to the nth degree.

[2229] Kirby fucking does yarn.

[2230] Yeah.

[2231] I mean, I think they do more with 2D silhouette than anybody.

[2232] Yeah, but Kirby does more with yarn.

[2233] Yeah.

[2234] I mean, Kirby does something nobody else has done.

[2235] Kirby does yarn.

[2236] So congratulations!

[2237] Kirby's Epic Yarn!

[2238] All right.

[2239] You're the best -looking...

[2240] Best -looking game.

[2241] Game of 2010.

[2242] What a looker.

[2243] That Kirby.

[2244] You like saying that.

[2245] You keep bringing that up.

[2246] Looker.

[2247] I keep getting dripped on.

[2248] Let's get this last category.

[2249] It's hot in here.

[2250] We can throw that door open.

[2251] I like to think it's just moisture collecting.

[2252] Let's get through this category and then we'll...

[2253] Because this one will go fast.

[2254] Best Xbox 360 only game.

[2255] It might actually.

[2256] It might actually.

[2257] We have four games listed here.

[2258] And that's all four of them.

[2259] Limbo, Alan Wake, Halo Reach, and Dance Central.

[2260] Do we need to clarify what this is?

[2261] It's a game that only came out on an Xbox 360.

[2262] You can't find it on another console.

[2263] That includes the PC.

[2264] Not console exclusive.

[2265] The only case where we lied about what we meant by only was where we don't count games that come out on the Mac.

[2266] When we're talking about PC only games.

[2267] That's true.

[2268] I thought you were going to say Super Meat Boy again.

[2269] In the debut.

[2270] A personal computer is a personal computer.

[2271] Yeah.

[2272] Sure.

[2273] We're not saying best Windows game.

[2274] Right.

[2275] I mean, you know, colloquially, PC means Windows machines.

[2276] But like Civ V came out of the Mac.

[2277] Yeah.

[2278] We know that.

[2279] Yep.

[2280] For anyone that's going to write and go, well, tech actually.

[2281] Actually.

[2282] Especially if you're going to write in that voice.

[2283] Just don't even bother.

[2284] Just don't even.

[2285] Ah.

[2286] So what do you got?

[2287] Who wants to read off our hits?

[2288] Anyone got anything else for this list?

[2289] Nope.

[2290] It's tough when you go exclusive.

[2291] Motion sports?

[2292] I just want to say, because this is a...

[2293] Yes.

[2294] This is a hard category.

[2295] It's not a huge year.

[2296] I mean, just across the board, we're going to keep running into this.

[2297] Not a huge year for system exclusives.

[2298] I feel like we've really reached a point between PC, PS3, and 360.

[2299] That the good stuff is the third party stuff.

[2300] Well, the good stuff is hitting everywhere.

[2301] Yeah, it is the third party stuff.

[2302] Except on the Wii.

[2303] Yes, that is the extension.

[2304] But I'm saying these hardware comparable systems.

[2305] And those first parties need to take a year off once in a while.

[2306] Yeah, apparently they did.

[2307] They all rolled out their motion control stuff, which I don't think that we necessarily...

[2308] There are definitely games there that I liked.

[2309] Yeah.

[2310] But it didn't hit in the same way.

[2311] Dance Central is the one that we've got in this category.

[2312] So we've got Dance Central, Halo Reach, Alan Wake, and Limbo.

[2313] I would say cut Alan Wake and give it to Halo.

[2314] I'd be 100 % happy with that.

[2315] I'd say give it to Halo.

[2316] All four of these are video games.

[2317] Yeah.

[2318] I really wish that Alan Wake was a better...

[2319] It's got the atmosphere and it's got the fiction.

[2320] The story.

[2321] The combat is good.

[2322] There's just too much of it.

[2323] To a point.

[2324] Yeah, exactly.

[2325] To a point, it's fine.

[2326] They lay it on too thick at the end.

[2327] Yeah.

[2328] Fucking collectible thermoses.

[2329] Why would you do that?

[2330] Yeah.

[2331] Those were optional.

[2332] You can't really complain about that.

[2333] But not in that game.

[2334] Yeah, they were.

[2335] Well, no, no, I'm saying they were totally optional.

[2336] That's the problem.

[2337] That game, I think I would have enjoyed, it's me again, but I would have enjoyed that game if they didn't make me hunt around.

[2338] You would have enjoyed that game.

[2339] It seems like a weird game considering the amount of time they're spending.

[2340] building atmosphere.

[2341] You have to put collectible stuff in it at all, like something that kind of gamey.

[2342] The game pages make total sense.

[2343] To be fair, you're saying you would have enjoyed it more if you weren't you.

[2344] But I agree with what you're saying.

[2345] But the pages made sense.

[2346] We both played it, and we both still take issue with things.

[2347] Yeah, it's not perfect by any stretch.

[2348] And the cans were fine.

[2349] That's because there were only like 10 of them.

[2350] But the thermoses just seemed weird.

[2351] The pages and the TVs.

[2352] And the radios, all that stuff.

[2353] The TVs were pretty good.

[2354] Everything around the game.

[2355] Yeah.

[2356] And again, I think the combat has a good feel to it.

[2357] It's just there's too much of it, and it's too much the same.

[2358] Yeah, it doesn't...

[2359] You fight the same three enemies the entire game.

[2360] It doesn't evolve enough, or instead of evolving, it's just like, it gets harder.

[2361] We throw more guys at you from behind, and it's more frustrating.

[2362] In tighter spaces, yeah.

[2363] So, Arrivederci, Alan Wake.

[2364] You guys have five years to make enemy types.

[2365] Halo?

[2366] Halo!

[2367] Yeah, I can go with Halo.

[2368] I like Limbo better, but Halo is an effing good Halo game.

[2369] That was a good -ass Halo game.

[2370] Yeah.

[2371] I intend to go back to it.

[2372] Good cooperative, as we talked about earlier today.

[2373] Strong campaign.

[2374] Say what you will about the Halo fiction.

[2375] That fills in one of the biggest events in the universe of Halo.

[2376] It's true.

[2377] The Fall of Reach.

[2378] Expanded universe.

[2379] And makes it seem...

[2380] No, that's core.

[2381] That's not expanded.

[2382] No, that's expanded.

[2383] I think that's expanded.

[2384] They talk about the fall of Reach in Halo.

[2385] They talk about it.

[2386] In Halo 2.

[2387] They talk about a lot of stuff.

[2388] But they make this event that seems like it's the most depressing, horrible loss.

[2389] You go into that thinking, this is going to suck.

[2390] I'm going to watch these guys die, and there's nothing I can do about it.

[2391] And you realize, and that happens, but you still, you're like, fucking, we accomplished what we meant to do here.

[2392] We allowed Halo 1 to occur.

[2393] That's what you learned at the end of that game.

[2394] It's weird.

[2395] I don't know that they fill in the reach scenario in the sense that you grasp the full scope of what that conflict was.

[2396] It's more like they give you...

[2397] you a sliver from the perspective of like this small group but but it's almost like that group matter but it's almost like seeing it through their eyes you kind of appreciate how dire it was like you don't see everything it's amazing that they did what they did like based on based on what the odds were against them like it's it's an impressive scenario right except they've got all those characters that just eat up bullets for hours and then oh no this cut scene is whatever that's that's the problem every action game Nathan Drake gets shot a thousand times, but one bullet to the gun.

[2398] You're going to tell me that Nathan Drake is impervious to almost all bullets.

[2399] I'll believe you.

[2400] You know, this is it.

[2401] Come back to a new category later on of trends.

[2402] Killing your fucking protagonist at the end of the game seems to be, I think I can name three games right now where dude eats it.

[2403] Like two on this list, right?

[2404] Yeah, where you just...

[2405] That's it.

[2406] Yeah.

[2407] Yeah, Dan Central, the end of it's pretty hard.

[2408] Only for me. I just want to kill myself.

[2409] All right.

[2410] Halo Reach.

[2411] Congratulations, Halo.

[2412] Yeah.

[2413] You are the best Xbox 360 -only game for 2010.

[2414] How does it feel?

[2415] I am.

[2416] That we can agree with.

[2417] That's all right.

[2418] Let's make another Halo.

[2419] All right.

[2420] Let's go.

[2421] I know you're gonna.

[2422] Jeff, run us down the list.

[2423] What have we awarded today?

[2424] Okay, so...

[2425] We've got best downloadable add -on, which goes to Minerva's Den for Bioshock 2.

[2426] What?

[2427] Wait.

[2428] What?

[2429] That's not what we picked.

[2430] Start over.

[2431] Best co -op, Halo Reach.

[2432] Woo!

[2433] Best download -only game, Pac -Man Championship Edition DX.

[2434] Yeah!

[2435] Best -looking game, Kirby's Epic Yarn.

[2436] Hurrah!

[2437] And best Xbox 360 -only game, Halo Reach.

[2438] Congratulations to all the winners as well as to all of the nominees.

[2439] That's it for day two.

[2440] Yeah, of course, we've got more stuff on the side.

[2441] Some top ten lists.

[2442] One from Drew.

[2443] Drew, keep it real.

[2444] And a couple more guests here.

[2445] Should be some guests.

[2446] Drew.

[2447] We do.

[2448] We have more top ten lists from friends of the site.

[2449] I know.

[2450] I have the list here of who it's going to be, but I have a feeling we're going to shuffle that stuff like a billion times.

[2451] I kind of don't want to say.

[2452] Yeah, let's not commit ourselves to those just yet.

[2453] Also in case they don't send them.

[2454] Right.

[2455] Look around the page, right?

[2456] Well, anyway.

[2457] Guest list.

[2458] Look for them on the site.

[2459] Come back tomorrow for another deliberation podcast and more Game of the Year proceedings.