#384 – Matthew McConaughey: Freedom, Truth, Family, Hardship, and Love

[0] The following is a conversation with Matthew McConaughey, a legendary Oscar -winning actor and one of the most unique, charismatic, and inspiring humans and Texans who walk this earth.

[1] He starred in films and shows loved by me and millions of others, including interstellar, Dazed and Dallus Bias Club, Killer Joe, Mud, True Detective, and soon a spin -off of Yellowstone.

[2] Offscreen, his words carry wisdom and power.

[3] in his book called Green Lights and his new video course called Road Trip, where Matthew expands in the philosophy in his book and shows how to apply to your life in order to find more happiness, success, and love.

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[23] The internet, there's something wrong on both of our internets.

[24] It just did not want to cooperate.

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[26] That's the whole point of this kind of technology.

[27] It's just incredibly easy to use You don't have to give instructions to the other person and a bunch of things to click on and all this kind of complexity that you would have to do to have a double -in -a recording using audio recording software, which is, I think, how people used to do it.

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[39] Will Wright Carlo Santana Carlo Santana is Europa I mean it's an instrumental guitar piece just it's smooth it's so beautiful it almost makes me more to play Gibson I'm a Fender Strat guy I probably should learn to play Europa at some point it's one of those pieces kind of like Voodoo Child by Jimmy Hendrix but you can just play it forever anyway you can learn from all these people Carl Santana in the music realm, Martin Scorsese, probably one of, if not my favorite director.

[40] I mean, it's just Jane Goodall, everything.

[41] It just goes on and on and on and on, Chris Hadfield.

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[45] And the drink I just drank, and it was delicious.

[46] I drink it twice a day, usually.

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[54] And now, dear friends, here's Matthew McConaughey.

[55] Let's start with love.

[56] Your parents had a complicated love story.

[57] Divorced twice, married three times.

[58] What did you learn about love from your mom and dad and their love story that it's messy that it takes work that it's ugly that no matter how ugly or messy it is don't go to bed until you've come back together to either embrace or admit that you truly love each other even if you hadn't solved what the hell you're bitching about that love will win in the end literally three to two with my mom and dad yeah um and that even in the two divorces and in the two times where they couldn't live with each other they still loved each other they just couldn't live with each other at that time for whatever reason they needed, and I don't know the details, if they needed their space, freedom or what, but they were never out of love with each other.

[59] And that, as a parent, if you just, when we're not sure what to do, and people give you a thousand books and advice as a parent, if your kid knows you love them you're in the black that's the main thing it won't work without that um and it can work and will usually can work with that they just know that fact so it's not just love for each other it's the love for the bigger family that ultimately helps you persist through the ups and downs well i mean i don't know how much particularly my mom and dad were staying together at times maybe and they didn't want to because they had children.

[60] I don't actually think they considered that.

[61] I think they were much less conscientious than say, I am today.

[62] I think my mom and dad are more like, they'll be fine.

[63] We love them.

[64] They'll be fine, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[65] Right now, let's work it out between you and I is what I think my mom and dad were saying to each other.

[66] Or not.

[67] They wanted and needed a relationship that was a tidal wave, rocky, right angles, tsunamis.

[68] And to this day, in my life with Camilla and I, which I don't, I like a river, has some swerves and some streams and some rapids, but I'm not looking for a tidal wave.

[69] My mom's like, what's all this, everything's so smooth stuff?

[70] Come on, come on, come on, come on.

[71] So she challenges, like, vitality, because that's what my mom needed to communicate.

[72] I don't think my dad needed it as much of that the hard angles that their relationship.

[73] I don't think my dad needed it as much as my mom.

[74] But the clashes demonstrated the passion.

[75] that underlies the love.

[76] Yes.

[77] And that's, I've always been asked, you know, when I talk about my parents' love relationship, I tell the stories that are actually sometimes quite violent.

[78] There's some good stories there.

[79] They're beautiful.

[80] I think they're beautiful.

[81] Yeah.

[82] I think they're beautiful, too.

[83] But I've had people go, wait a minute, that was unhealthy.

[84] You can't.

[85] And I was like, no, that's, again, back to the beginning, love's messy.

[86] And that, what I love about those stories is that's where the love was actually.

[87] It was tested.

[88] And it could have broke and been over.

[89] Yeah.

[90] And it never was.

[91] Again, the love won.

[92] In the kitchen floor, the blood's drawn, knives are pulled.

[93] Ketchup.

[94] Ketchup's all over.

[95] But we make love on the kitchen floor.

[96] I mean, come on.

[97] Beautiful.

[98] So as romantic as it gets right there.

[99] Whoa.

[100] What's a memory from childhood that helps set you on the trajectory of becoming the man you are today.

[101] Standing on the corner with Mr. Mayor, the principal of St. Philip's school.

[102] I was in kindergarten.

[103] And I looked up and there as a cloud in the sky.

[104] And I said, Mr. Mayor, is that cloud as big as the world?

[105] And he paused for a minute.

[106] And he goes, well, yes, it is, Matthew.

[107] now in my seven -year -old mind I went okay I can see the outlines of it and that must mean it is so far away because if that's as big as the world I remember it took 15 hours just to drive from from Longview to Florida last year you know and I can't even see that far so that cloud must be so far off that is not worth me even considering space, dreams, any of that.

[108] I was like, Army, I'm looking down.

[109] I'm going to put my head to the ground.

[110] I'm going to look right in front of me and deal with what's in front of me because dealing with dreams and what's out there and not on this earth that gravity holds down, not worth considering.

[111] You never make it.

[112] It's not even worth imagining.

[113] It's fairy dust.

[114] so I think I got learned a lot of self -reliance from that I think I got a work ethic from that I think I got a hey focus on what's right in front of you do the deed take care of what's in front of you one at a time and slowly notch up your way and hopefully there's some ascension to that and And it wasn't until quarter years later, in some ways, decades later, that I started to go.

[115] Oh, I can project.

[116] I can dream.

[117] Why?

[118] Because literally the first time I got in a plane and then 30 seconds I was in a cloud, I'm like, whoa, we must be going a trillion miles an hour because we're already in that cloud that was as big as the world that I saw the edge of.

[119] And then I grew and learned enough to go, well, that's not true.

[120] trains planes don't go that fast oh what mr mayor said wasn't really true that cloud is not as big as the world and it's not near as far away as i thought but i'm glad he lied to me what do you think about that that tension of a way of living life between being a dreamer and a pragmatist yeah which is a better way the honey holds the the reciprocity the two of them I mean, I can't be present unless I got plans.

[121] I want to have the big picture in mind, but I got to go a day to time.

[122] I like to write the headline or have a, I think we need to have a North Star.

[123] Something to look forward to, but we all know that if we're staring at it, we're tripping on the way.

[124] If we're just, you know, the old, you read the Hallmark cards, which I irk me, you know, dream it you can do it i think that's a half -ass horrible thing to tell somebody yeah you know because um and you talk and then on the other side you have things like you know people say hope means nothing well yes it does that's the dream you just don't stop there it's not a period after that word now what do we do practically and i think that constant tension when that tension to dance is when it's beautiful.

[125] But to see those as contradictions, I think, is where we've, it's falling short.

[126] So I don't, one on their own, if we silo the two, well, if you silo the two, I guess the pragmatics, the one to go with because at least you'll get something done.

[127] But if you only silo the dream and don't do anything about it, that's, you're kind of living an illusion and kind of living in a virtual reality.

[128] Yeah, it's tricky.

[129] Even the people you love can sometimes suffocate the dream.

[130] dream can make you believe that it's not possible.

[131] It feels like a lot of parents kind of want you to be safe, want you to be stable, want you to have a plan so that everything is going to be okay.

[132] Yeah.

[133] And the dream feels like a threat to that.

[134] Yeah.

[135] How much of that, though, I wonder, is proper initiation?

[136] Because if you throw in dreams out, I call it conservative.

[137] to very liberal late.

[138] Let's learn to block and tackle.

[139] Let's learn to that work ethic, those things, those pragmatics first.

[140] Learn the rules of the road, the rules of the game, the things that we can all kind of rely on.

[141] This is how the world's supposed to work.

[142] Now, it doesn't always work that way.

[143] You know, you teach a child to drive.

[144] It's like, yeah, you stay in the lane.

[145] You go to the speed limit.

[146] This is all helpful.

[147] But that doesn't guarantee that no one else is running the red light.

[148] But we learn that later.

[149] There's an initiation, I think, that's proper with the dream.

[150] I mean, I think parents, my parents, very much that way.

[151] The idea of going to chase an acting career or something was, what?

[152] It was, that was a different vernacular.

[153] That was, like, not in our, I was taught to work away up a company ladder and nine to five, do your job.

[154] But the day I brought it up and said, I wanted to.

[155] go to film school and I thought my dad was going to go you want to do what boy he was like gave me something best advice ever and told me not to half ass it and said go in between the lines what he heard from me was that made him so happy as a father I believe and makes any parent happy is when our child doesn't ask us permission to go chase a dream oh yeah when they're going I'm bringing it up to you with full respect.

[156] Yeah.

[157] But I'm doing this with or without you.

[158] That's when a parent goes, ah, yes.

[159] I've done something right enough.

[160] I helped my child be secure enough in the pragmatics, to have a foundation enough where they have the courage to go, I'm flying the nest.

[161] To take the leap.

[162] You wrote, after my dad died, I had a dream that left me with his, statement less impressed more involved yeah what do those words mean to you we got to be more than just happy to be here i'm big on gratitude but we've got to be more than just thankful to be here dream it you can do it it's got to be more than just dream it you can do it that's impressed uh the dream is still other than um if i'm here and so impressed Talking to you today, if I have a reverence to an extent, I will not be able to be involved in this conversation.

[163] I'll be too impressed.

[164] I'll be anticipating.

[165] Oh, what's that question?

[166] He's going to ask.

[167] Oh, I think I know he's going to this.

[168] Oh, I think I know what answer you might love to hear.

[169] Oh, I'm not involved in conversation.

[170] I'm too impressed.

[171] So I'm removed from the present.

[172] For me, what that literally meant to me when that came to me in a dream, and I carved it in, I remember carved it in a tree, it took a couple hours.

[173] I still know where that tree is, Santa Monica.

[174] It was, my father had moved on.

[175] He'd left this life.

[176] All of a sudden, it hit me. Oh, I don't have the safety net.

[177] My dad was above law and above religion to me. He had me. If I really was in the shit, if I really needed him, I trusted that he had my back, above law, above anything.

[178] All of a sudden, he's gone.

[179] I'm going, okay, it hit me how much I'd been pretending to be the young man. I was trying to be and not actually put my ass on the line and having enough courage to take risk and actually own up to the man that he was trying to, that he was teaching me to be.

[180] And I remember the world got flat.

[181] That cloud that Mr. Mayor that I saw there was not way up there.

[182] It was, it was fog in front of me now.

[183] And let's go into it.

[184] It was, I kept, I'd say I probably gained even more respect for people and things.

[185] But I lost a certain amount of reverence that was keeping me from feeling like I deserved or had earned things.

[186] or looking out for myself or holding myself to task.

[187] And I remember all the things that I, and I was just going to Hollywood at the time, so I was getting fame was out there as one of those clouds.

[188] You know, with being an actor and all of a sudden celebrity and becoming famous, the reverence I had, I remember it just lowered down to eye level.

[189] And I was able to realize it and go, that's not a, that's not fairy dust.

[190] And don't give it so much credit to make it fairy dust.

[191] Like, oh, not me. No, I can never, no, look that in the eye with full respect, but less reverence.

[192] And at the same time, equidistant, almost equal sublimation, I noticed where I had been condescending people and things and patronizing and sloughing things off as like less than me. and not worthy of my time.

[193] It raised up to eye level.

[194] And so they were all flat in front of me, and the world was flat.

[195] And I was able to, shoulders went back.

[196] My heart rose up.

[197] My chin lifted up.

[198] I looked things in the eye.

[199] I became probably less sentimental, hopefully not to a level that I got callous, but I know it became less sentimental.

[200] I became more courageous because you know, when you have someone pass in your life, or maybe it's similar to a situation you're going on in your own life, your homeland, you sober up on these mendacities that we deal with every day and this bullshit that we, that we, we, oh, we give too much credit or too much significance to.

[201] And you're like, what am I doing?

[202] Why am I, I, I'm not even going to let myself emotionally get brought down or over, related by this situation because I'm this is it doesn't really matter in the big scheme and so we certain things that I found reverence for and and hesitated from in my life I was now engaging with because I was like oh it's live this life is live let's look at the eye and and go forward through it and deal with the consequences what do you make of death is that scary you I'm not looking forward to it, but it does not scare me. Do you think about it?

[203] Do you visualize it?

[204] I do.

[205] I do.

[206] And it's a beautiful visualization and a beautiful dream when I go as part of the food chain.

[207] It's not a good visualization when I go as part of a random act of violence and a frickin' drive -by or something.

[208] because the second, the accident, it breaks a story that I believe has already been written.

[209] At least I don't have the capacity yet to put it into a story, a divine story of the lives that we live.

[210] And so there's something ugly and gross about it.

[211] And it happens all the time, you know, to people all the time.

[212] I just feel like when it's part of the food chain, when I go as part of the food chain, I'm like, ah, that's poetry.

[213] Part of the flow of nature, you return to nature.

[214] Yeah, there's grace and poetry in that.

[215] Do you miss your father?

[216] Think about him.

[217] When I think about him, I do.

[218] Now, when do I think about him?

[219] I thought about him yesterday.

[220] working through a script I'm working on right now, working on scene work.

[221] And I just had that quick little reaction of wanting to show him.

[222] Hey, check the scene.

[223] I try it down there.

[224] And then I don't get sad.

[225] I go, yeah, he would have loved this.

[226] Whereas my mom wants to be on the stage, my dad would have been on the front row.

[227] He's more fun to show stuff, too.

[228] Yeah, and he would have, you know, as what we would have, he knew, he was a character.

[229] He knew characters.

[230] I've based parts of all kinds of characters I've played and the man that, that I am on people that he introduced me to and who he was.

[231] He would have loved the creative process of working on a script or talking about, hey, movie.

[232] It's why I always say I love the movie, mud, because it's the one that.

[233] I've visualized and seen my dad come to me so many times as a 12 -year -old and put his arm around me and go, hey, little buddy, you see this movie called Mud?

[234] God, damn it's a good one.

[235] Let's go watch it.

[236] That.

[237] Now, my dad was never got to see me start a career film, but he was alive five days into the, he overlapped the first five days of me working on my first film days confused.

[238] Now that, I think, there's something beautiful about that.

[239] He didn't ever, ever, ever come to the set.

[240] We didn't talk about it.

[241] But he was alive for me to start something that was more than a fad.

[242] That was something that would become something that I love to do.

[243] And I do miss, not him, you know, and then I go out of that, do I, I, I, we talked about him two nights ago with our, with our daughter.

[244] I was, I was rubbing my daughter's feet.

[245] And my mom, mom who's living with this.

[246] 91 comes in and goes, oh, look at you, just like your pop.

[247] He's like what?

[248] And he goes, oh, because my dad loved her rubbed somebody's feet, rub my mom's feet, rubbed all of me and my brother's girlfriend's feet.

[249] When we would have a date, they would come over early because they knew they were going to get a foot rub from Jim McConaug.

[250] And then we'd come out, me and my two older brothers on, This has been on for decades.

[251] We come out, I'm ready to get a buttoned up, and they looked at him like, we ain't going anywhere right now.

[252] And so we told the story, you know, to my daughter, and I was like, oh, yeah, my dad's his hands, and miss his hands.

[253] His hands could heal.

[254] So you carry him in you?

[255] I hope so.

[256] I hope so.

[257] And it's a challenge for me, and I suppose it's like this for any, son how much do we hang on to and how much do we let go and evolve and update the iS and and and try maybe better or different you know it's that there's certain things that i know that i fully believe in it's like when do we religious when do we cast away our father you know when do we say no i'm going after the dream i'm not asking your permission, I, I, I, I, I question that from time to time for myself because I, and it almost feels blasphemic, if that's a word, sometimes.

[258] I feel like, you can't, what are you doing?

[259] You can't check that and go like, well, no, I'm not sure if I want to really, and then I immediately kind of let myself off because I believe where he is, he's going, go, but you're free, man. Yeah, you know, I'm not, not, I'm not going to hold you back.

[260] If you miss. shred that or I didn't teach you that as well as maybe I wish I could have.

[261] Go, you're free.

[262] You're not going to lose.

[263] Trust that you're not going to lose.

[264] It's in your DNA.

[265] It's in your lineage, young man. Still, it's scary to not have a safety net.

[266] Losing your father is scary in that way.

[267] You realize this world is just you.

[268] In some deep fundamental way, it's just you.

[269] Yeah.

[270] You're alone.

[271] Yes.

[272] But, I mean, also.

[273] not having that.

[274] It's such a gift of deliverance, though, as well.

[275] Because it's a, I think it's an, I mean, it's an awesome feeling to know, to know we're alone, to know we don't have that, to know you don't have two or take three, that it's one take.

[276] I mean, the peripheral vision improves.

[277] You know, the, the link and understanding with our past improves.

[278] Because I know for me, I was not ever considerate of my past at all.

[279] Because my dad had that if I needed it.

[280] He was my well for that.

[281] Well, he's gone.

[282] You know, like I said, he had the, literally had they have our back.

[283] Well, and then when they longer have our back, all of a sudden, I'm going like, oh, well, maybe I need to look back and start giving some credit to how I got here.

[284] what I'm doing and where I'm heading.

[285] It gave me the first time courage to even look over my shoulder.

[286] Because again, I didn't have to because I don't have to look.

[287] Dad's got my back.

[288] No, Dad's gone from this life.

[289] He doesn't have your back.

[290] Okay.

[291] So, I mean, I don't know, me, because it's inevitable, I very quickly go to all right, in the pain, the loss, and yes, even loneliness, which is different from being alone and loss.

[292] Pretty immediately part and parcel with the pain, I felt it.

[293] In the pain, you saw the gift, the red light of losing your father.

[294] Pretty immediately, less and press more involved.

[295] I came like a couple weeks after moving on.

[296] Is there a trick to that to see the gift in the pain?

[297] That's a good question.

[298] Is there a trick to it?

[299] Not that I know of.

[300] I mean, I don't, I have to catch myself from trying to intellectualize my way into the reasoning and not skip over real feelings and discomfort.

[301] I mean, I did get that from my mom and I have to watch it, that so resilient that we just dust herself off and get up and go.

[302] You want to sit in the feeling.

[303] You want to feel it.

[304] You want to deeply feel the pain.

[305] I want to deeply feel it.

[306] I want to look at the eye and deeply feel it.

[307] But I don't want to wallow in it.

[308] Yeah.

[309] Now, I was raised where you skip the deeply feel and let's go.

[310] And I've said it before, but that will lead to having turned into a person who is a repeat offender of the same crimes because you just get up and you don't have a winter.

[311] in your life, you know what I mean?

[312] You don't have, there's no introspective time.

[313] You don't look over your shoulder at the end of the past.

[314] And so you just get up and you're like, all right, I've stepped in the same pile of whatever a hundred times and I'm fine, I'll do it a hundred and first.

[315] Doesn't hurt.

[316] Hell, it's good luck.

[317] Well, hang on a minute.

[318] Maybe we want to stop and go, what can I learn from that?

[319] But it, it, it, it, it, I don't know of a trick.

[320] I think, I think that, I think, I think, if there's any trick, I would say, it's just how quickly can we admit the inevitable?

[321] It's what I'm talking about in the book of that.

[322] Once you know it's inevitable, how do we get relative?

[323] Not skip it, not throw it to the side, not deny it, which I'd love to talk about that here sometimes too, but the value of denial sometimes.

[324] The value of denial.

[325] Yeah.

[326] But how quickly do we, once something's inevitable, go, So, okay, any mind and heart time I'm spending about going, no, I can't believe that happened, no, did that really happen?

[327] Any time we spend trying to deny what has already happened, that seems to me to be, I'm not sure the value of that time.

[328] So if any, there's any trick, I would say, once you know something's inevitable, even though how painful it is or how awesome it is, start getting relative with that.

[329] And in the relativity is seeing, there's a gift here.

[330] And if I realize that gift, I'm honoring.

[331] Now I'm on to building up the beautiful passage of my father leaving this life.

[332] Now I'm on the march to go, yes, let's let's let the legacy, let this become omnipresent, let him live through me, let me become more hymn.

[333] It's transformed.

[334] Yeah.

[335] So what value is there then to denial?

[336] any oh i think they're valued a denial if you really commit to it i get this from my mother yeah so it's a very pragmatic uh value commit to the denial okay and and and and my mom does it to an extent that that that that i'm like mom do you have any consideration or context of situations and she does this the thing every time I go she's not a shallow woman but if it is not if it is something if it is something happens in her life that is keeping her from going where she wants to go or having a joy in her life that she does she'll straight -ass deny it happened didn't happen no did mom we're right here I heard you what you said.

[337] No, I didn't.

[338] You heard something else.

[339] Mom.

[340] Now, she gets some amnesty on that.

[341] She's 91.

[342] Hell yes, she gets some amnesty on that.

[343] But I've, she's not, yeah, does she repeat offend?

[344] Yeah, but it's misdemeanors.

[345] You know what I mean?

[346] I mean, it's like, we all, it's part of that thing when you got a family man, you're like, yep, that's just what they do.

[347] Just go with it.

[348] You know?

[349] And it's, and it's, it's engeny.

[350] in a way.

[351] It's a tool.

[352] She does.

[353] I think it is more of a trick with her.

[354] She would even so ingrained her, it's not a trick.

[355] It just do it.

[356] Done.

[357] And I, and I, and I, and I, another reason I bring this up, it's outside of just my mother is I did this, um, uh, uh, road trip course in this art of living event a few weeks ago.

[358] Out of the hundreds of thousands of chats that came in and responses that came in afterward.

[359] It seemed to me that about 80 % of people's challenges and problems, even in their life, were something in the past that they were hung up on, that they could not seem to get past.

[360] And it was holding them from going where they wanted to in their future.

[361] And so I thought that was revealing.

[362] I would have thought that was, I don't know, going on 40%.

[363] It seemed to be 80%.

[364] And then I thought about, okay, if you're here in the live show and you want to get the course, you're into some sort of therapy or education or development or self -help, whatever, okay.

[365] And I have a lot of friends and I know a lot of people that are in weekly and daily therapy.

[366] And then I know there's a lot of people that are on prescriptions, drugs.

[367] And while a therapy and the right prescription to the right person for the right diagnosis is necessary, I'm questioning, is there a value to going, if you're not getting past this today, this week, this month, this year, and all of a decade goes by, and you're still hung up, and you can't get rid of that thing and your memory where it's got you paralyzed and you're, you're a victim of it is there and you're doing the therapy and you're doing the work and you're taking a prescription if that's what you're taking where does there is there is there value in going if it's holding you back from going where you want to go maybe you should just deny the fucking thing ever fucking happened kick it in the head kick it off the curb i'm done with you i'm sick of you i'm tired of hanging out with you i'm tired of that thing whatever it is holding me back from going where i want to go so if i if i can't wax the car You know, and get past this thing, just kick it.

[368] That's so powerful.

[369] So one thing to do, like with the loss of your father, is to try to transform it to discover the gift in it, the gift in the pain.

[370] But if you can't keep looking, keep looking, you can't find the gift in the pain.

[371] Just deny it ever happened.

[372] You could call that a trick, but I think it's more than a trick because, let me say this, my mom after my father died went on and found a second love of her life for 17 years they were together C .J. Carlich.

[373] Love you, buddy.

[374] He's moved on now.

[375] Did she check with us a little bit?

[376] Like, is this okay?

[377] She gave us a little lingering half a second look that we knew that maybe was what she was asking and we came to her.

[378] It was like, yes, it's okay.

[379] And you know who else is saying it's okay?

[380] Who's dancing up there for you?

[381] Dad.

[382] So, was that her denying that the man she was divorced from twice, I married two, three times, and had three children with, had moved on?

[383] No. But she didn't say, I'm not, you know, well, what's the book on how long I'm supposed to say single before I can be interested in another?

[384] You know, there's not a book on these things.

[385] How do you feel?

[386] Is loving, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, Is loving CJ mean you're loved dad less?

[387] No. Is finding a new life and a new dance partner in this life?

[388] And CJ mean that dad wasn't your dance partner?

[389] The dad wasn't the love of your life?

[390] No. So I don't know.

[391] I mean, in there, maybe, you know, maybe there's another word.

[392] I think it's denial, but it's not really denial because it's not like it didn't happen.

[393] That's an earlier example I was giving them a mom.

[394] She will absolutely go.

[395] So that light's not on.

[396] Mom, the light's on.

[397] That light's not on.

[398] If I say it's not on it, sometimes you're just like, that makes no sense.

[399] You're just absolutely denying what just happened.

[400] We even have it recorded.

[401] And she'll go, well, the recordings line.

[402] Yeah.

[403] I mean, that's part of a coping deal with her.

[404] But I mean, what I think is more important are more valuable is to talk about this.

[405] She didn't deny my dad dying.

[406] I didn't.

[407] But she sure has hell turned a page and said, I can still start a whole new category, a new life, a new love.

[408] Let my, let my heart love and be loved by someone living in this life today that I'm still living in, and that will not trespass on my love for my husband, your father, Jim O 'Connor.

[409] And I think, I mean, we were just thought that was beautiful.

[410] Yes, Mom, go.

[411] Talk about a green light.

[412] Go.

[413] Now, if we're hung up, up going can't have one or the can't have them both got to have one or the other now we start to make a contradiction of the two ideas again which darn our contradictions get us in trouble all the time man that's life though the contradictions right but isn't life if if if we just admit the contradictions are so much don't they become a paradox we just admit that that's part of it yeah if if contradictions are inevitable they hencely they do become a paradox don't they?

[414] Then we're in the honey hall.

[415] Then we're singing and dancing and have leniency with ourself while still holding ourselves to task.

[416] I think it's holding on to know each contradiction.

[417] Oh, here it is again.

[418] So it's a one -off.

[419] It lives on its own separate from the last one.

[420] No, it doesn't.

[421] They're connected.

[422] That's why they are a paradox.

[423] And then I think that's a much I think that's where life really is.

[424] In the paradox.

[425] Yes.

[426] And the dance of it.

[427] I think the metaphor of red, yellow, green lights is just so simple and so powerful.

[428] You write about some green lights being engineered and some being mystical, which I love the difference of that.

[429] What's the difference of the engineered green lights and the mystical?

[430] Such a cool word, mystical.

[431] Yeah.

[432] Well, the engineered ones have reason and the mystical.

[433] school ones however I'm yeah you know life's a mystery going forward but it's a science looking back I've prepared I've had ideas written headlines and had goals and an athlete gets in shape for an event and I get in shape for a role I read I study I work I prepare and I go and I'm prepared and I behave and I do it and I look at and I go yes That's what I wanted to do.

[434] It's engineered.

[435] Greenlight.

[436] It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a conscious delayed gratification.

[437] It's that if I do it today, that pragmatic head down, believe there's no cloud out there, but then I trust that there is one out there.

[438] If I do keep my head down to do it, I'll get that to that dream.

[439] We can engineer those.

[440] Habit.

[441] Work ethic.

[442] Prep, expertise, education.

[443] And the mystical ones, though, don't make any sense.

[444] They're not supposed to make sense.

[445] They only make sense after, right when they happen, you backlog.

[446] And you connect the dots with how they got there.

[447] That red light you ran into that made you 30 seconds later to get to the restaurant.

[448] As you walked in, she walked out.

[449] and you went good morning and she went good morning and too much later you're dating two years later you're married you after that got a family and now you're sitting here 40 years later going I love you look at what we built and you go back and go what if I wouldn't hit that red light those 30 seconds you know made all the different Difference.

[450] So strange that this life is this way.

[451] Yeah.

[452] And that's just rhyme.

[453] I mean, we can't really add that up.

[454] Yeah.

[455] It's a science when you look back.

[456] You see, you know, why it was that you were upset and ticked off that you had to pick up the kids' toys before you left and they were supposed to pick them up.

[457] And therefore, you were late for the thing that made you ran into and you ran into the person that was walking in the office.

[458] That's the guy that you did the interview.

[459] That's the guy you were looking.

[460] for the job you wanted and you caught him because you were in the elevator with him.

[461] And that 90 seconds on that elevator, it's what got you that job that led you doing what you want to do.

[462] I mean, the significance is there, but I think what we also got to watch is, again, in that balance, what do we chase?

[463] Because if you just chase the engineering, we miss magic.

[464] If we just chase the mystical, we find ourselves caught up and trying to give meaning to that Lego set that was on the floor.

[465] that my kids didn't pick up and what color was it and why did I walk out that that door and see almost up on the Legos but if I had gone out the other door I usually go out of I would have gone there I would have got there early and wouldn't run into the guy the boss and the so you can start to give too much meaning on that as well I think we can give significance in too many places and all of a sudden I think we've all been there where you're seeing art in every single thing.

[466] Man, that can be paralyzing.

[467] It's like, it's hard to leave a room if everything's significant, or if everything's a sign.

[468] How much of success in life do you think is engineered and how much is mystical?

[469] And how much is it different from person to person?

[470] Because I, for me personally, maybe I enjoy it.

[471] Maybe I'm genetically built that way, but I exist more in the mystical.

[472] So I don't make plans.

[473] I traveled last summer in Ukraine with no plan.

[474] I just went there.

[475] No plan.

[476] I didn't know how I'm going to meet the president of the country.

[477] I didn't know anybody.

[478] And so there's no plan.

[479] There's no clear thing.

[480] You're just roaming around.

[481] And that's how I've existed in life.

[482] There's something about giving yourself over to the flow of nature that I just enjoy.

[483] It makes life so much fun.

[484] it's awesome when you can do it did you engineer though i'm going to put myself in the place when you got on the plane to go to the destination that was an engineered choice yes with the choice and maybe i'll meet and i'll run into and i can work up a sit down with so the The engineer choice was putting your shoes on, perverbally.

[485] You know, I always say this is the hardest part about going to the gym's putting your shoes on, right?

[486] So getting on the plane, that was an engineer thought with the goal in mind, but I don't know how I'm going to do it.

[487] The choice.

[488] Yeah.

[489] Putting the shoes on.

[490] Yeah.

[491] But there's not a clear, it's a fog.

[492] What happens after the shoes go on?

[493] Yeah.

[494] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[495] It's going to take that leap.

[496] So I wonder how much, for people who are successful in this world and finding what makes them truly happy and fulfilled, how much of it is engineer, how much is mystical.

[497] How much was it for you?

[498] Well, I'll say this.

[499] Like, when I went to write about green lights, which is basically the last 40 years of my life, I thought that 85, 90 % of my successes were going to be obviously engineered, where I could see the science, saw the habits, here's what I did, yep, that add up, got the solution, got the conclusion.

[500] I was very surprised when I noticed that it was probably less than 50 % and that most of the real successes of my life were when I trusted the, when I trusted that I didn't have to define it, that I only trusted that I didn't have to go, well, what's the measurement?

[501] what's the score what lead what this leads to what what's next um and i for me that that's still a there's still a challenge for me daily now is to trust and not be because i can be i could i think i can be overly practical and i think i can overcompensate and miss out on magic because i'm still going wait but do you are we given enough am i are we giving enough the measure and credit to actuality are we are am i given enough credit to this is this these are the steps to take and and and and and and and and this is reality i i think i'm reminded when i when i trust because that go on with the mystic just to put yourself on the plane was the engineer but getting there and as you say you say you roll in that mystical it takes a lot of trust yeah trust in the inevitable amen on that to but not knowing where it actually ends you up it's a it's a feeling more than um uh i don't think it's a clear vision right it's kind of like a feeling that guides you towards uh towards a place with with uh without a clear name without clear care characteristics, it just kind of pulls you there.

[502] Where do you get that courage and trust to go with your gut, your feeling?

[503] And is there, for instance, three days later you sit down, is there, if you didn't, if that, if that doesn't happen, is there a sense a week, two weeks later, now when you come back to America, they're like, ah, I failed?

[504] Sort of looking back to try to analyze what went right, when it went wrong, that kind of thing.

[505] Yeah, that engine is always there, but I think what pulls me forward in life, what makes me really grateful and fulfilled, is noticing the thing you mentioned, noticing the magic, and kind of going towards it.

[506] Sort of just sitting back, both in tragedy and then triumph.

[507] So in war, there's a lot of tragedy.

[508] but there's somehow one of the things you see in war this is the first war I've experienced and seen seen the front is the loss the people lose their homes and all this kind of stuff the thing that rises from that is the love for each other so they the people I've spoken with don't give a damn about the home don't give a damn about that on farms and the animals they lost don't don't give a damn about having to move and all this kind of stuff as long as the family's still there as long as the people they love is still there and there's like that's this melancholy smile they have on their face like yeah this world is full bullshit it's full of tragedy but life is fucking awesome and that and you just notice that in little ways everywhere you just sit back and yeah notice the magic and i i want more of that you just kind of follow along like a little ant keep noticing that kind of thing but I don't know I hope you know what I think it is is other people notice that you're the kind of person that notices it and they're like I want to hang out with that person he seems that right like he seems one of the one of the good ones one of the good aunts do you have any certain non -negotiable structure before that freedom to go with the feeling?

[509] I think so.

[510] There's a set of principles.

[511] I'm just basically integrity of being good to other people.

[512] Like, whatever that means for me, there's specific things.

[513] Like, I'm really into loyalty.

[514] Above the law.

[515] Right.

[516] There's a kind of, like, there's a circle of friends I have, and that means everything.

[517] There's just a basic, deep, kindness.

[518] towards others, empathy, empathy towards people that others might label as even evil.

[519] I have that kind of empathy.

[520] I believe all of us have the capacity to do good and evil.

[521] So I just kind of see everybody as little babies that grew up in different conditions.

[522] And some do evil, some do good.

[523] And there's, yeah, there's all kinds of other principles.

[524] I love the dynamic between the different humans and their full diversity.

[525] I love the dynamic between the masculine and the feminine and enjoy it, the dance of it.

[526] Yeah, yeah.

[527] So you have a constitution with which you embark into chasing?

[528] Yes, I hope so.

[529] And for me, I'd like to, it's inspiring to hear something like yourself go, I go, and I go, I just land and I just go, I'm going to feel it.

[530] I can go back and go, yeah, my greatest truth I've crossed, my greatest successes in my life, or when I trusted that and go, I took a one -way ticket.

[531] Amazon, Africa.

[532] Yeah.

[533] And those were spiritual and very pragmatic because they led to dealing with succeeding in other ways that are more.

[534] pragmatic a hundred percent and gave much more meaning to those things but that's that's to be able to go out and and say that's how you do you have family i really want to get married and have kids but i i'm not married and don't have kids yet okay so actually one of the nice things about that is you can take bigger risks yes so while i'm not married and don't have kids i feel i owe it to myself to take Just to go.

[535] Go to the Amazon.

[536] I don't.

[537] Throw that backpack on and a one -way ticket.

[538] Yeah, because that does get harder to do.

[539] Um, I miss that, um, sometimes.

[540] The, the whim, a song that comes on, you know.

[541] Yeah.

[542] Where's that guy from?

[543] Oh, they're from the place that I want to go that I dream about.

[544] I'll go there one way ticket.

[545] What do I'll got to do?

[546] I'll get a couple shots.

[547] Okay, go.

[548] That, that, that was, that was fun.

[549] Go to do this.

[550] Get up and go, you're free to be back.

[551] And go, when are you back?

[552] When I, when I get there?

[553] Yeah.

[554] It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[555] Maybe never.

[556] Yeah.

[557] Yeah.

[558] Actually, you'll be coming to visit me in this new place, maybe.

[559] Yeah.

[560] How did the Amazon, how did the trip there change you?

[561] What do you remember of it?

[562] Such a magical place.

[563] I stripped a lot of my past, symbols and talismans while I was there.

[564] What I remember getting there and just having so much adrenaline on the anticipation, anticipation of getting to the Amazon.

[565] In the first 10 days, I wasn't really enjoying.

[566] trip I was just charging to get to the destination to get to the banks of the river that I had a dream about and then it just humbled me I got so fatigued me on night whatever 12 and was so sick and tired of the internal dialogue I was having with myself I was not enjoying my company I purged.

[567] And I remember and stripped off identity markers that I had sort of been hanging on to for like everything from, you know, what it means to be an American.

[568] My dad's ring, M from McConaughey, a meltdown of my mom and dad's class rings from University of Kentucky were gold from her teeth and his class.

[569] clashering, melt it down, you know, taking that off was really hard to go, I'm casting, am I casting out my father?

[570] Now, I wasn't casting them out.

[571] I was just removing to say, I don't have to rely on that being all of my identity.

[572] So to pull that off, to strip down and to where I was just a mammal, that next morning, I was light.

[573] I got present.

[574] I remember writing something down, it was like, all that I want is what I can see, and what I can see is in front.

[575] of me. That sense of not, I wasn't leaning around, looking around every corner to get there.

[576] And as soon as that hit me, you talk about mystical successes and realities and truth.

[577] As soon as that hit me, and for the first time on the holidays, I didn't care about getting there or what was around the corner.

[578] Guess what was around the next damn corner?

[579] The Amazon.

[580] I mean, not around a few corners.

[581] The next corner.

[582] There it was.

[583] And that was just like a touche.

[584] You know, those times when the prime mover, the universe, God, what we want to name or believe in, says, ding, there you go.

[585] And that form of detachment from holding on for dear life to things in past, so hard that you're not letting the beauty that's right in front of you to feel correctly.

[586] and follow our intuitions, to have those, not cast them out.

[587] I didn't burn them.

[588] I didn't get rid of those things.

[589] It just took them off and had to recognize, you're still here.

[590] You are you.

[591] You're much more, that is a talisman.

[592] That's a symbol.

[593] That means something to you, and that's good.

[594] Don't cast out the meaning.

[595] But it's not like when the rings off and the hats off and the crucifixes off your neck, that you're like, you're going to die.

[596] And I know, those are reminders.

[597] hang on to what they mean for you as we go forward.

[598] But as we go forward, quit worrying about so much about, again, I was looking at the proverbial dream, the cloud, so much that I was tripping over myself to get there.

[599] And like clockwork, just amazing grace, boom, as soon as it hit me. And I was like, oh, that's it.

[600] All I want is what I can see, and all I can see is in front of it.

[601] me literally looking down at the ground at what was a sea of 10 ,000 wild neon blue Amazonian butterflies on the ground.

[602] As soon as they fluttered up, my head came up with them.

[603] I took a few more steps and there's the Amazon.

[604] That's what you came over here for.

[605] Oh, howdy.

[606] Those kind of, that truth like that.

[607] Well, the Amazon is interesting too because it really has no past or future you're losing the moment because how fast it churns, it just eats up life.

[608] It like, if a thing dies, it just gets swallowed up.

[609] Because maybe because of the humidity, because of all that, because there's so many living creatures that kind of eat each other, live on each other.

[610] So it really exists in the moment.

[611] And all this kind of diversity of life there.

[612] It's such an interesting place.

[613] Talk about food chain.

[614] Yeah, you're just part of it there.

[615] Yeah.

[616] We humans somehow escape.

[617] that food chain, but we're still, the roots are still there.

[618] Are we, I think we're a bit arrogant to think we've escaped.

[619] Do you think I'm being romantic in that notion?

[620] Well, sometimes when you're in a big city, when you're in Austin, Texas, in L .A., you can think like, oh, there's, we're in a car, we're in a house, we're safe, but yeah, somehow, somehow as nature is still a part of us.

[621] Our roots are still a part of us.

[622] I think it is more than we realize, more than we give it credit for.

[623] I actually have a, I believe that we are, that it's a really arrogant notion to think that we are separate.

[624] Meaning, you know, people talk about pollution and on a larger scale, the climate or what have you.

[625] I think Earth is going to be just fine.

[626] We maybe not be here for it, but I think we have to be.

[627] bit of arrogant sometimes to think that we can trump mother nature i think we have more more of the natural law in us um and i sure hope so if i'm wrong well there's an interesting i've recently been uh there's a guy named max tag mark at mit who really wears about nuclear war and he was part of uh constructing a simulation of what happens when a nuclear war happens it's interesting to see that some very large percentage of humans on earth starve to death because they don't die first from the explosion they die from starvation because basically dust covers the entire North America and entirety of Europe and so the crops all die all the food sources all die and people suffocate and starve to death but you know the lesson you learn from that over a period of a few months even though most of the human population of earth dies earth finds away life finds away to adapt yeah to adapt and it's going to be just fine yeah in terms of the big um living ecosystem that is life on earth and yeah it's humbling to think about well maybe we're just the stepping stone the same thing with talked offline about artificial intelligence maybe humans are just the stepping stone to the development of these other super intelligent entities yeah yeah and is it unconsciously in our nature that that's just part of the evolution and adaptation of our species and we'll because we're going to we were talking about earlier what AI becomes it's completely 100 % based on who we are and we get to see it for some time a mirror to ourselves.

[628] Okay, this is what human civilization is like.

[629] These AI systems, large language models are trained on human communication, and you get to ask the questions, and you get to have conversations with it.

[630] You get to realize, wow, this is what, the collective intelligence of the human species are collective wisdom and knowledge.

[631] That's what it looks like.

[632] All the bias, the hate, the paradoxes, is all of that is in there.

[633] The contradictions.

[634] You can even convince those models.

[635] You can tell them they're lying and they're going to start changing their mind.

[636] It's interesting to play with them.

[637] It's also interesting to consider that maybe they become smarter than us and become almost life forms that live among us and maybe one day kind of we merge with them.

[638] There's all kinds of possible trajectories that we take here.

[639] How much of that excites you?

[640] How much if it scares you?

[641] Is it possible to exist in a place where it's both exciting and scary, but to exist in that dance?

[642] Mostly, I'm really excited because I see human beings as deeply lonely.

[643] Like, there's a deep loneliness in all of us.

[644] That's how we see connection.

[645] That's why we see connection in others.

[646] That's why love is so beautiful when we find other people we're connected with, and I just think AI can add to that.

[647] You can add friends that you can have great conversations with, and that some of those friends would be AI systems.

[648] They'll call you out in your bullshit in the most fascinating and interesting ways and challenge you and help you explore ideas together, so I'm excited by that.

[649] Is that different?

[650] And if so, how, from the internet and Facebooks and these groups and communities that were, I think it's fair to say, set out to say this all access of information to people will help us find more common denominators than divisive ones.

[651] Is it, do you see it similar?

[652] Yeah, similar but further into that direction.

[653] I think the internet has done an amazing thing in connecting us and expanding our minds.

[654] and helping us find community that feels like our community and then the communities that are totally different that you learn from them.

[655] I mean, Wikipedia alone, one of my favorite websites.

[656] Just opens your mind to all kinds of cool stuff.

[657] Yeah, it does.

[658] And...

[659] Not the Dewey Gessum system anymore.

[660] No. And so I think AI just makes that even easier because Wikipedia have to like read and have to do a lot of work with an AI system like a large language model you can just shoot the shit it's more like drinking a beer versus like doing homework Yeah yeah yeah yeah It's already happening what do you think about that becoming the new family to where you know you said you know married you don't have kids could you see a future for yourself or do you have a relationship with AI and that is your family and that's the main that's the primary, like, even romantic relationship.

[661] Yeah.

[662] I can see it.

[663] That one worries me. I like to keep it at friends.

[664] Right.

[665] I think I'm not ready to commit to the romantic.

[666] It's, I wonder how much, now that takes us back to the Amazon of nature, how much we still need the human touch.

[667] Yeah.

[668] And whatever magic there is between two humans, which takes the leap into the romantic.

[669] romantic versus just the intimacy of a good friendship?

[670] I don't know.

[671] So correct if I'm wrong, you see AI as having a deep and meaningful friendship.

[672] Yes.

[673] And hopefully it will be a friend that will help you evolve and be able to love even more and be loved.

[674] And you can take that into humanity and find another homo sapien.

[675] Yes.

[676] To go, yes.

[677] And thank you, AI, my great friend, for opening me up to this beauty that I have myself and I can see in you, my fellow human, and let's come together and biologically create family if we want to.

[678] And let's all remain friends with my friend and make your own friends with my friend's friends on AI.

[679] And let's have these great neighbor.

[680] It's a good friend, a great friend that's a neighbor.

[681] Yeah.

[682] Okay.

[683] Mentor and friend.

[684] Just like now there's AI systems that play chess far, far, far better than humans.

[685] And we humans still play chess with each other.

[686] Or chess is still a game that's fun for us, humans.

[687] Right.

[688] And then we use the AI systems to get better at chess to learn, to train, to discover new ideas.

[689] But ultimately, return to the chess board between two humans.

[690] But of course, this world is full of dangerous people.

[691] And so those same AI systems can be used to harm, to create false narratives, to do social engineering and manipulate the masses in terms of what they believe and all that kind of stuff.

[692] That's scary.

[693] Yeah.

[694] Well, and I get it when we, and I have my own fear and distrust of AI is based on my own fear and distrust of myself and others.

[695] There's something, it's still very simple, but I think it's a really done sort of way to just set up this reality.

[696] It's kind of a duh, but it still needs to be said that AI is a prompt.

[697] It doesn't do anything unless we ask it.

[698] So what questions are we going to ask?

[699] Is it what we need to ask ourselves?

[700] Because we're going to be looking in the mirror.

[701] at our digital God that we create from ourselves.

[702] And just to know that that's that place where it's awesome and scary, exciting and scary, we go, oh, it's, it's our creation, which is awesome at the same time, oh shit.

[703] But it's prompted by our questions and gives us patterns from that which we give it.

[704] But that prompting, that's that's the art of life like we prompt each other in conversation our loved ones when you when you when you go about your day today the next words you say the next word you say to me the question I ask of you that's prompting yeah and it can change everything I can say so many things right now that will completely just the the set of possibilities where both of our lives can take given on the selection of words I use and you use.

[705] It is crazy.

[706] So it makes conversation pun.

[707] Yay.

[708] And then same thing with AI.

[709] Except the nice thing about AI is it's tireless.

[710] Tireless.

[711] Right.

[712] Let me ask you this.

[713] If you can falsely condemn me right now and I prove you falsely condemn me, I can forgive you and we can march forward stronger than before.

[714] Yes.

[715] And AI's tirelessness and retention, can it forgive?

[716] I mean, can it, can it, can it go, oh, oh, okay.

[717] Yep.

[718] Sorry about that one.

[719] That was wrong.

[720] Can it amend?

[721] Yes.

[722] Yeah, you could prompt it to ask for forgiveness and it'll forgive you.

[723] like when I talk it around with it and you ask what should I be afraid of with you or it's the dooms toward you its answer was always well it's up to you which it was awesome right yeah again it's up to us and it brought up you know make me synonymous with your human values and ethics and responsibilities but it doesn't deal that I didn't find anyway deal with defining or making choices on its own of what those are?

[724] Yeah, I think some of that is manually those are constraints put on by it by the creators of those large language models basically not letting the systems have an identity of their own and some of it is just not engineered in yet, but I believe that we'll have systems that have an identity, have a belief, have a set of opinions.

[725] that carry through time.

[726] And will we go to them, like certain states where we agree with the law and disagree with the law, or nations?

[727] I'm a member of this AI.

[728] Oh, well, you're from this AI tribe.

[729] Y 'all believe this.

[730] Yeah, there will be an anarchist set of AIs.

[731] There'll be the communists.

[732] There will be the Nazis.

[733] There will be the Democrats and the Republicans.

[734] there'll be the people who are in the keto diet and the people that are in this other kind of diet, this other kind of lifestyle.

[735] Just like we have now, there's little groups and there'll be AI systems.

[736] They're going to be supercharged.

[737] They'll be either the leaders or the foundation on which we build those groups, and it'll be the possibility of all the fun we can have is endless.

[738] Of course, the danger is always.

[739] rise up there, because I mentioned the Nazis.

[740] I mentioned all the dangerous ideas.

[741] The set of ideas that humans have come up with, a lot of them are awesome.

[742] Most of them are awesome, I would say, but some of them are dangerous.

[743] The reason they're dangerous is because they become viral.

[744] There's something exciting about those ideas, but they also harm others a lot.

[745] Because that's who we are as humans.

[746] We're capable of envy and all the dark, stuff of hate and all this capable yes we also choose it do you think most people are good yes but i also believe we we got we got the good and evil and all of us and it's which one which wolf we've eaten you ask people to draw a distinction to describe where are you acting and where are you being um what's the difference what's uh what's the difference between being fake i mean use that word and being real okay yeah and the word authentic gets thrown around a lot and you know i and and i don't mean i used to think he used to feel this way but but bob dillon loosened me up on this idea a little bit you think it was all about get to be this your only one and only true Yeah.

[747] That's it.

[748] Everything else is fake.

[749] And then you hear Bob go, well, I mean, we are what we create ourselves to be.

[750] We are our own creations, which I'm like, oh, yes, yes, we are.

[751] Thank you, Bob.

[752] What, I'm all for bullshitters and bullshitting.

[753] I'm not as big a fan of the liars and lying.

[754] What's the distinction?

[755] You're talking about the art form or bullshit?

[756] A liar's faking it, but not admitting to themselves that, yeah.

[757] Oh, yeah.

[758] It's a fucking creation.

[759] I'm faking it.

[760] A liar, I'm lying to your face right now, and I don't give you that hair of a wink out of my right eye that let you know, hey, go with me here.

[761] Yeah.

[762] I think there's value in the bullshitting.

[763] Now, the lying becomes troublesome because, one, I've duped you and I didn't let you know.

[764] Come on, I was telling the story about catching the fish.

[765] The fish always gets bigger.

[766] Every year we tell a story.

[767] Come on, go with it.

[768] All right?

[769] Yeah.

[770] But the lying, all of a sudden, I don't know my own.

[771] I don't know when I'm emanating something and creating something, telling the truth, being authentic or lying.

[772] And I'm, shit.

[773] All of a sudden, I'm leaving crumbs with myself.

[774] That constitution gets blurry.

[775] Lying to yourself and to others.

[776] Yeah.

[777] Well, you start to you lie.

[778] You lie to others enough.

[779] You start to lie to yourself and you don't even know it.

[780] And that, I believe, is dangerous territory.

[781] That's why I'm trying to push this admit because that goes, I'm not to, I don't, I'm trying to come in at a kindergarten level because we immediately jump to, well, I'm going to judge that.

[782] Boom, that's bad.

[783] That's wrong.

[784] No, no, no, no, no. Hold back on that.

[785] Let's, let's go back to base level.

[786] Let's just admit that we all fucking do it.

[787] Lies we tell others, lies we tell ourselves.

[788] lies we believe for convenience sake.

[789] I do it.

[790] I'm guilty of it.

[791] I try to catch myself on it.

[792] If I can just call it and go, you know, you're believing that lie out of convenience.

[793] I'm I know.

[794] And then I have to, if I'm saying that in the mirror or writing it down or sharing with a friend, you know.

[795] And I go, okay, well now I've inherently become a bullshitter then because I admitted it.

[796] That I can shake hands with.

[797] That's the little slight wink to ourselves and someone else go, come on, it's a better story this way.

[798] In the course, road trip, you start with step one, admit.

[799] How do you do that?

[800] How do you, how do you kind of step back and do that inventory?

[801] Yeah.

[802] Is there a trick to that?

[803] Oh, if there's a trick to it, I think it's just about courage of having the, because it's, I don't think any of us like to admit our lies or look deep enough in the go, I've relied so much on that lie that it's become my reality.

[804] Yeah.

[805] And I don't want to be so puritanical as to say, again, that's why I say admit instead of judge, but I don't want to be so puritanical.

[806] I say, go and admit it and get rid of it.

[807] No. I'm just saying to admit it.

[808] Just bring it to the surface.

[809] Yeah.

[810] I'm saying this and I'm doing something different.

[811] I preach this, but I actually, my actions, just admit it.

[812] Just admit them.

[813] And I think that's the first step to where we begin to either forgive us.

[814] and give ourselves some amnesty and go, yeah, I'm a human.

[815] Trying to make it through life as best I can.

[816] I'm going to let myself slide on that one.

[817] Okay?

[818] And maybe I've been getting away with it for so long.

[819] Whole family, my whole network works well on it, okay?

[820] Forget this get to the base of the truth of the matter.

[821] Let me do it, but just admit it.

[822] And then it will also help, it'll be easier to then expose to ourselves.

[823] Which ones do we go?

[824] No. I'm not let myself slide on that anymore.

[825] That is actually a lie I've been believing that's been keeping me from getting more of what I want in life.

[826] That's actually a lie I've been living that I haven't admitted that is not allowing me to enjoy life as much as I damn well should be, deserve to be, or I've earned to be, or just sort of let myself.

[827] See, man, I had on it.

[828] So it's not all the hard stuff.

[829] Sometimes it can be a fun thing.

[830] I'm talking about how many times we major in our minors.

[831] Let's admit where we sit there and we go, all right, I get myself a 12 -hour work day, but I notice I'm spending eight on my hobbies and four on my career.

[832] Well, I'm majoring in my minors.

[833] Well, let me admit that.

[834] There's the math.

[835] Why don't we invert that?

[836] How about four hours on my hobbies and eight on my career?

[837] First off, just admitting it allows me to go, well, now I can do the math or rearrange the math by time of day.

[838] But I, look, I just found a hobby tennis.

[839] First hobby I've had in 25 years.

[840] I had to admit that I went to play tennis for the start to love it for the first month.

[841] I started feeling guilty.

[842] I was like, is it okay to have this much fun?

[843] I'm having so much fun.

[844] And I'm getting a great workout.

[845] And I just admit, I was like, yes, it's okay.

[846] Congratulations, but he found something that you're finding quite pleasurable for straight pleasure.

[847] You don't have to forget all this other stuff, but yeah, but I'm also getting a workout.

[848] We ain't getting that too, but you don't have to excuse the pleasure based on, oh, but it's good for you.

[849] And you're, no, you, damn it, the real reason you love is because you're having so much damn fun at it.

[850] I had to admit that to let myself go, damn, right, I'm going to play tennis again today or tomorrow.

[851] It was a simple fun thing.

[852] So it's not always about the hardcore stuff that we have to go, this is that.

[853] a deep dark lie that I've been living by and it's having me live falsie and it's having harmful consequences on my loved ones.

[854] Some of those will probably arise and we admit.

[855] I think he's just having a looking around and it's just saying.

[856] And when we admit it, then we go, when we admit a lie, then we become something much more valuable.

[857] A bullshitter.

[858] Yeah.

[859] You had the little wink in your eye.

[860] I love the distinction.

[861] I'm bullshit.

[862] myself on that thing.

[863] Yep, I'm lying.

[864] Therefore, if I call it a lie, I'm admitting a lot.

[865] Yep, well, now, yep, I'm bullshitting.

[866] Yep.

[867] Now she's out.

[868] Didn't judge it.

[869] But now I'm bullshit.

[870] That I think we can work with.

[871] Well, you're an interesting case study because you're one of the most famous, one of the most charismatic, successful humans in the world.

[872] There's a lot, millions of people love you.

[873] Hang on every one of your words.

[874] That's a hard place to be.

[875] How do you call yourself?

[876] How do you admit that you've been living a lie?

[877] How do you admit yourself in big ways and small ways on lies at this point, given how many people love you, how famous you are?

[878] Ten years ago.

[879] I don't know.

[880] I don't know.

[881] Someone was talking about like, yeah, they really admire this so -and -so person because they're not someone who looks in the mirror.

[882] And I was like, yeah.

[883] And all of a sudden.

[884] I was like, man, I got to catch myself looking in the mirror a lot.

[885] And then I go in and I, you know, look at my wife's out of her bathroom, how many different creams and stuff she has out there.

[886] I look at my side.

[887] I got a lot more on my side.

[888] I'm like, oh, I notice how if I'm out, like, working out, maybe doing push -ups.

[889] Maybe I'd do a few more if there's a group of people walking by that maybe I'd like to impress.

[890] Then I mean, I'd do a few more than I'd do if I was on my own.

[891] I'm like, you are vain, McConaughey.

[892] And the knee jerk is, oh, vanity, bad.

[893] And all of a sudden I became a bullshitter once I admitted.

[894] And I was like, well, Bravo, Vanity.

[895] Yeah.

[896] Let's go, vanity.

[897] Let's, instead of putting it in the cupboard in the lie section, Oh, I'm in the vein, because that's a debit.

[898] No. Admit it.

[899] And then go, what's the value in it?

[900] Well, I can look at, yeah, I've actually gotten better shape because of my vanity.

[901] Actually, I eat better and better, and I have more energy.

[902] And that led to being a better husband, better dad, doing something with my kids when I'd rather be over there writing this work I'm working on.

[903] But I know that tomorrow, when they leave town, they're going to remember this time that we had together.

[904] That's a selfish act to go spend that time with my kids or my, even though I'd rather not be doing it at that time.

[905] I'd rather be doing something for myself because when they leave tomorrow, they've got, they'll have this great memory that they spent with their dad right where they went.

[906] That, that, that, I could call that vanity.

[907] I could group that and say, that's very vain of you.

[908] have his for self yeah because it was also for something and someone that I cared about are there people in your life that call you all in your bullshit in the bad sense of the word bullshit yeah yeah sometimes it's either I got a pretty thick threshold for how far I can go with my bullshit like what bruise what tickles me might bruise others to watch it That's a good line.

[909] Yeah.

[910] Tickles me and my bruise others.

[911] But I also, I go back and talk about the bullshit.

[912] That's over there with those mystical successes.

[913] It's the, yeah, no, no, go with it.

[914] Don't pull a parachute yet.

[915] Let's see how far we can go.

[916] Let's see how hot it can get.

[917] Let's try it one more time.

[918] Yes, two more, please.

[919] That's where a lot of great pleasure and stories and successes will come from.

[920] Those are mystical.

[921] They don't add up.

[922] It's like, we're not talking about reason right now.

[923] We're not talking logic.

[924] Just go with this.

[925] Let's talk about the virtual and making it real.

[926] The old line of fake it till you make it.

[927] I mean, what is that?

[928] There's something to that.

[929] There's definitely something to it.

[930] But I would, you know, where people would go fake it as I would go back to Dillon's.

[931] and create it, recreate it, create and recreate it, you know, until you, till it becomes, until you make it.

[932] So I'll have people call them on bullshit, and a lot of times you're right.

[933] I think when I handle it the most healthy way is I admit, yes, and I'm aware.

[934] So I'm, and I'm going to keep going.

[935] So you're not like resisting, you denying and putting it away.

[936] Oh, I will.

[937] I will.

[938] And I have to watch that where I'm like, no, I'm not.

[939] That's not what I'm doing.

[940] And usually when it's coming from people that I care, they're going, no, you are.

[941] It's like, I want to bid it.

[942] And then that's where I'm telling a lie.

[943] And that'll come up, get me later.

[944] And I'll go, I didn't see it.

[945] I didn't see I was doing that.

[946] I was either unaware, I wouldn't let myself be aware.

[947] I was denying that I was doing that.

[948] Would you say that's ego?

[949] Has ego been bad or good for you?

[950] Gosh, I think it's been, I'm so thankful for ego.

[951] Does it get off the bridle for me sometimes and run loose and run places and where it's not of service to others and has it hurt loved ones and even strangers?

[952] Yes.

[953] but I also when my ego is really strong it's it's in sync with serving it's in sync with where I serve myself also serve as others serves others it's those two are part and parcel they're they're they're intertwined and that's the capital e ego that I think I think and hope we all need more of.

[954] And that's what I mean when I talk about selfish.

[955] That's the redefining that, the real true meaning of that is not doing something for self at expense of your neighbor or harming others.

[956] It's for personal profit and pleasure that also is profit and pleasure for a utilitarian sense more of others.

[957] And there's, again, back to the paradox that I think there's a place.

[958] I know there's a place.

[959] I believe there's a place where those are in sync.

[960] And when my ego's healthy, I'm able to say, I'm sorry sooner for a lie or a misdemeanor or harm somebody.

[961] I'm able to be more empathetic because I got the confidence to be so.

[962] I'm able to be more humble, but still have my chin high and my heart high and look in the eye and go, yep, my bad, bogey.

[963] guilty.

[964] I shanked that one out of bound, man. That's beautiful if he put, so ego can be constructive, not destructive.

[965] You won an Oscar for your performance in Dallas Byers Club.

[966] Can you tell the story of becoming that character, Ron Woodruff?

[967] What was the toughest part?

[968] The toughest part, which was the most enlightening part, was getting to know who he was in between the lines.

[969] We're based on a life story in an hour and a half of film.

[970] And the script is great.

[971] But who was he in between the lines?

[972] Who was he before he started a business before he was on a crusade before he went to alternative medicines?

[973] You know, the obvious thing people always talk about, well, how did you lose all that weight?

[974] That was not hard.

[975] That was just a militaristic decision.

[976] This is what I can eat each day.

[977] And if I do this each day for a week, I'll lose 2 .5 pounds in a week.

[978] So I'm going to give myself five months to do that, 2 .5 times as 10.

[979] There's a go.

[980] There's 47 pounds.

[981] That was like clockwork.

[982] So that was easy.

[983] That decision was made.

[984] I didn't go to the Pizza Hut buffet and have temptation in front of me. I had certain meals.

[985] I ate that and the weight just went off like clockwork.

[986] It was the who is Ron Woodruff in between the lines.

[987] And the gift I got given that gave me the insight to who that man was.

[988] I went to see his family and his, before I was, as I was leaving, his family offered me his diary.

[989] And I remember it kind of hesist going, wow, yes, but I kind of hesitated because it felt maybe a little too intimate of a thing for me to have.

[990] I felt like it was kind of maybe infringing a bit, but I opened my hand and took it.

[991] And what I got in the diary was I got to know who Ron was before he had HIV.

[992] And little thing, the diary he'd write in and the dreamer he was and getting all set on a Sunday night and laying his shirt out and ironing it for the next morning, making sure there's little pager had fresh batteries in it because tomorrow morning he was going across down to hook up some speakers for 38 bucks or whatever.

[993] And then getting up that morning and writing about what kind of coffee he drank and how much.

[994] gas it was going to take to get over across town to do that job and hook up those speakers and then on the way over page coming in to say no we don't need you we've gone with somebody else to hook him up and here he was all buttoned up two cups of coffee in hair slicked over shirt ironed a little less than half a tank of gas but enough to get back home now where's this monday go the hope and the disappointment you have to take all that in that's part of that man I'm just going to go to Sonic and get a double cheese bacon burger because Sheila over there, man, she's kind of cute.

[995] She always gives me high price on it, which leads to rolling the joint, hanging off until Sheila gets off the work, sneaking over to the local motel and shagging up in room 16.

[996] That's my lucky number 16, Sheila!

[997] Then wandering out that night, getting home.

[998] One in the morning, no plans for Tuesday.

[999] And maybe later in the week, think about what am I going to do, about work or job.

[1000] And these little dreams would be peek and want to, and then something would happen where he wouldn't follow through or the deal would go down.

[1001] The deal would go south.

[1002] That, knowing that there's, in there was where I saw who, he was a dreamer.

[1003] And he just couldn't catch the break and didn't follow through.

[1004] And then I remembered his family said, like, oh, yeah, he invented it.

[1005] He got patents on a whole bunch of things, but he never would.

[1006] He had things to get patent, but never would follow through to get the government patent.

[1007] And then later on, you'd see the product be made or sold on QVC or something.

[1008] They'd be like, Ron, that was yours.

[1009] Are there still your idea?

[1010] Did you patent that?

[1011] He'd be like, no. Like never would.

[1012] There's something beautiful and sad about that.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] That let me inside who he was.

[1015] in his heart and who he wanted to be.

[1016] And what he was hoping to be and trying to be, but couldn't quite pull off.

[1017] When you go that deep, does a part of him stay in you forever?

[1018] Are you able to let go?

[1019] I, I mean, I hope so.

[1020] I look, there's a tenacity to survive that I got from him.

[1021] Look, hopefully I can try and find some of that in different ways in any character.

[1022] Let it go play, because that's, if you, if you really want to give a character an obstacle to overcome, a need, I mean, the base one is life and death, whether that's the need to survive or the need to stave off extinction.

[1023] I'm not talking about what the rules, the laws are, the social mores, the manners and graces.

[1024] I'm fighting, you're going to fight for your own life in a world that's not supporting you to do so?

[1025] you there's a wonderful courage of okay watch this what do i got to lose my life or i'm in charge of extending it and get out of the way and i'll pick your pocket along whatever it takes so there's a tenacity to live by whatever means necessary to survive that i that i that i reminded of, that I learned from wrong.

[1026] So on that line of survival between life and death, you starred in True Detective, which I think explores some darker aspects of human nature.

[1027] What did you take from that, from that role, that experience, philosophically, psychologically?

[1028] The freedom of being on an island.

[1029] He was such a singular character and of a singular mind.

[1030] And as you know, it wasn't a dance party up there in his mind.

[1031] It was some heavy stuff.

[1032] But also existentially for him always like, death would be a deliverance for him.

[1033] It would also be a cop out in a way.

[1034] It would also be, he was not a man who was going to give himself amnesty.

[1035] and didn't allow it from the rest of the world.

[1036] It wouldn't give himself an out.

[1037] And while living in his head and heart and spirit was more of a hell than arguably dying, there was no alternative.

[1038] That's not negotiable for that man. And that's why he was such a, that's why he was the best detective that ever walk the earth.

[1039] That's why he was such a superhero in a way, to have that singular.

[1040] You don't go, oh, I wish I was him.

[1041] No, but you're like, wow, that constitution, that clarity of identity.

[1042] Talk about a measure in a man's constitution.

[1043] He didn't allow anybody off the hook, especially himself.

[1044] You wanted him to forgive a little bit or give himself a little amity.

[1045] You wanted him to like, man, it's Saturday, bro.

[1046] Can you go on a date?

[1047] he wanted him to like enjoy something but he was connected to something in his DNA who's who he was and something much more baseline truth and that's why he was such a good detective so that but there's an island as much as that company can be as said earlier on that amazon trip but it wouldn't enjoy the company there's parts i think that i maybe gave to myself to rusting cole and also that Rustin Crull's given back to me that are like, yeah, when you're, when you want to pull the parachute because you can't stand the company that you're in, McConaughey, in your own mind, the Socratic dialogue is driving you freaking crazy.

[1048] Don't pull a parachute.

[1049] Stick with it.

[1050] Go through it.

[1051] So you were able to walk around with that tormented mind of his?

[1052] Tormented.

[1053] I didn't have very much patience for mendacious talk.

[1054] I didn't have as much patience for small talk.

[1055] I wasn't tormented But the character was And you have to embody him So is that I mean does some of that bleed over Are you able to Separate the man you are From the character It's not Look am I able to separate Yeah I came home to my kids And when they walk around the door And greet me and go What'd you do today And you got three kids Under 10 years old You don't tell them about the scene where you help someone commit suicide.

[1056] It's just, you know, so you turn it into a parable.

[1057] And actually, I've always said this, having kids has made me a better actor and a better storyteller because I have to parabolize certain things, you know, and tell it in ways that I go, oh, neat, you know.

[1058] So I, did I go, did I bring it home?

[1059] I didn't bring torment.

[1060] Did I bring introspection into my own?

[1061] Characters for me, and I think this is true for a lot of actors and actresses, it's not a separation.

[1062] If I've got, we each have everyone else in us.

[1063] It's just seeing, diving into Rust and Gold, knowing where his mind and heart is from the hand of Nick Pizzolato, who wrote the character and wrote the whole series, understanding.

[1064] Number one, what the hell am I saying?

[1065] What's he talking about?

[1066] Then going deeper into that, well, this person really believes that.

[1067] What does that say about how they move?

[1068] Then I'm going all of a sudden, well, who is that in me?

[1069] What part of my left brain is locked into that?

[1070] What part of my reptilian brain is latched onto that?

[1071] This other stuff is non -negotiable.

[1072] Then I just live in that.

[1073] And it's, I always tall like a 70s equalizer.

[1074] Remember the old at Morant's equalizers?

[1075] You can move up your 500, HKZ, move up your 60, you just re -rebalanced the equalizer.

[1076] And we all have, so it's just going to those parts of me where I'll turn up the volume, some parts of the base, the treble on the equalizer, and turn down other parts of myself.

[1077] And I'll, I'm not coming home tormented as Rust and Cole.

[1078] Am I coming home?

[1079] seeing torment where it should be seen?

[1080] Am I reading the news differently or things coming out of the news and catching my eye as being bullshit or lies or truth that it's just hard and going, yep, yeah, I'm seeing it through a different lens, but I'm seeing my own life through a different lens, a lens that was opened up and an aperture that was opened up through Rust and Cole.

[1081] I mean, the process of being an actor, an actress, I guess is a really interesting way.

[1082] to be a philosopher of human nature.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] I mean, it's an incredible...

[1085] Really in it.