Kevin Bacon

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dick Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Hello.

[4] We are now zero degrees of separation.

[5] I know.

[6] That's exciting.

[7] I know.

[8] There's a wildly popular game people play.

[9] It is.

[10] We didn't even bring it up in that episode.

[11] I know.

[12] Originally, I was nervous to even bring it up.

[13] But then I found out he's embraced it.

[14] At first, it drove him nuts, I think.

[15] But then he really has learned to embrace it.

[16] Yeah, which I think is the right call.

[17] Yes.

[18] Kevin Bacon.

[19] Oh, did this guy make me want?

[20] do everything when I was a kid.

[21] Oh, I just thought he was the coolest human being on the planet.

[22] I still think he's the coolest.

[23] He's very cool.

[24] But my God, I saw him in Footloose.

[25] I'm like, I want to move to a small town and dance.

[26] I saw him in that bicycle movie.

[27] I want to be a bicycle messenger.

[28] Anything he did, I wanted to do it.

[29] Tremors, sleepers, not sleepers.

[30] Mystic River, Apollo 13.

[31] Of course, City on the Hill on Showtime.

[32] And he has a new movie out on Peacock right now called They, Them.

[33] It was really awesome to get to sit down with such a hero, Kevin Bacon.

[34] Legend.

[35] And now we're zero degrees.

[36] Please enjoy Kevin Bacon.

[37] Wonderie Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

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[39] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[40] He's an armchair expert.

[41] Have you ever heard?

[42] the show.

[43] We will not be offended if you haven't.

[44] Oh my God, I love it.

[45] Oh, you kidding?

[46] I'm a hard to show.

[47] Come on.

[48] Come on.

[49] Come on.

[50] You guys are great, and you're a great pairing.

[51] That's really nice.

[52] We are funny pairing, aren't we?

[53] One big, one small.

[54] One white, one brown.

[55] One old, one young.

[56] Yeah, very youthful.

[57] We're on the other side of many spectrums.

[58] Your teeth are so shiny.

[59] Oh, thank you.

[60] That's the arm and hammer.

[61] What toothpaste do you use?

[62] Will you tell us?

[63] Tom's.

[64] That's a popular one.

[65] I can't get behind that.

[66] Why?

[67] Look, there's a zone for organic stuff.

[68] I believe that.

[69] We have an organic diaper company.

[70] That's great.

[71] I want that on little babies.

[72] My dish soap, I wanted to have chemicals.

[73] And I want my toothpaste to have some bleach and shit.

[74] I want it to whiten my teeth.

[75] You know what I'm saying?

[76] I don't think that's much about it.

[77] And that's what I stick on my mouth.

[78] They look great.

[79] They look great.

[80] They do look good.

[81] I don't have shit in there.

[82] They look great.

[83] Because I did have a turkey sandwich earlier.

[84] So it might still be living in there.

[85] It's too early to ask this, but yeah, what is your diet?

[86] Because you've stayed thin your whole life, which is an accomplishment.

[87] You might not see as an accomplishment, but it is.

[88] I mean, I think it's everything in moderation.

[89] I'm not a vegan, but I don't eat meat every day.

[90] It's just a boring, healthy diet.

[91] I will say this, that I don't have too much of a sweet tooth.

[92] That helps.

[93] I'm a crunchy, salty, spicy guy.

[94] What's your favorite potato chip?

[95] give you three by the way i don't want to stress you out no no no that's okay and i recently only came to this it's really funny because you go only in the last probably 30 years and that is salt and vinegar which i didn't grow up like and i know it's not a brand but i didn't grow up with it but to me that's got all the major food groups couldn't agree with you more in fact rob they might even be in one of those doors i did a google search of what is the vinegory is salt and vinegar too really oh what is Because I want the most vinegary.

[96] I want a lot of bite.

[97] I don't know if I'd say tart.

[98] Would you say vinegar is tart?

[99] Okay.

[100] Do you agree with that?

[101] Yeah, tart.

[102] I think that's tart.

[103] But that kind of comes from the idea of putting vinegar on French fries.

[104] Is that an English thing?

[105] I think it is.

[106] There's a name for that sauce they got always on the table in England.

[107] What the fuck's the name of that sauce?

[108] And it's vinegar.

[109] And it's for fish and chips.

[110] Right.

[111] I'll remember it by the end of this interview.

[112] Anyways, I did a big search.

[113] I ordered the top three.

[114] There was a winner.

[115] the name escapes me now unfortunately was it like vikis yeah that's good i don't know we were going to get quite so deep you're throwing me off because i thought we were going to say a little bit more surface but i'm going to roll okay good this is the maccabellian technique so you'll be in the middle of talking about the validity of um cheddar and sour cream about your father yes yes yes your father the architect he wanted to design you didn't he he wanted to construct you how the fuck did you know that well you and i both are like liberated in the fact that our fathers have passed.

[116] So we can kind of talk however we'd like on them.

[117] That's true.

[118] But we're going to earmark that.

[119] Way more important.

[120] Good Easter egg, though.

[121] Have you ever augmented and put vinegar on top?

[122] I'm not done that, but I am going to do it as soon as I get home.

[123] Because here's the thing.

[124] You should be able to just say, well, I've just got a regular chip.

[125] But hell, I can put more salt and more vinegar on these bed boys.

[126] These aren't proprietary substances.

[127] This is dime a dozen.

[128] But what about soggy factor?

[129] You'd have to eat them very quickly.

[130] So fast.

[131] Yeah, you'd have to jump right on it.

[132] All right.

[133] Report back.

[134] Ideally, you would have it in like a hairspray bottle.

[135] Man. Fuck.

[136] That is such a good idea.

[137] And even just pop the chips and then, oh my God, you and I need to make a date.

[138] You were on hot ones, right?

[139] This feels like it could be like a hot ones episode.

[140] How did you do it, hot ones?

[141] Well, I loved it.

[142] I ate them all.

[143] I got through it all.

[144] I was trying to really put my finger on it.

[145] And what it is is it starts to feel a little druggie.

[146] Like when you get to the really hot stuff, the combination of like your blood pressure and also soul -searching for the answer to these questions.

[147] It's a little trippy.

[148] Plus, there's the most awesome gift box of everything that you've tasted.

[149] And since I do like spicy food, they're now spread out around the house.

[150] So that's cool.

[151] I think it's the funest interview I've ever done other than like Stern.

[152] It's a party to go.

[153] He does a great job.

[154] He's a great interviewer.

[155] It's not salt and vinegar chips, but it is really obscure.

[156] Yeah.

[157] Back to the drug thing.

[158] You know, we learned this recently about cutters.

[159] A lot of cutters, your body does release at that point.

[160] It's opiate.

[161] I wonder if when we're in the throes of that heat panic, that we are getting a little bit of our own opiate to soothe us.

[162] Adrenaline.

[163] So you can jump out of a fucking plane or you can just find out about the secret of footloose.

[164] From behind the scenes, truth about footloose.

[165] Okay, this is a thing that we have to do.

[166] Unfortunately, it often goes wrong, which is why it's kind of fun.

[167] on it.

[168] Do you remember the time that we met?

[169] Well, I do remember meeting you guys on Hillhurst, just walking up the street.

[170] So that's great, because I don't remember that one.

[171] Which shocks me to no end.

[172] You said something like, I liked you in Yellowstone or something like that.

[173] I did not do that.

[174] I said, no, that's wrong Kevin.

[175] I did not do that.

[176] I did not do that.

[177] You talked about a different.

[178] No, Kevin.

[179] No, no, no. As you will learn shortly, I am at Kevin Bacon.

[180] super fan okay you and i presented at the country music awards thing that's right i remember that and we had like you know there's a lot of down awkward time and maybe even your brother that was there yeah yeah so the three of us what i immediately was overwhelmed with was you're so fucking normal and it was very chill and i love thinking like oh bacon's a stud he's just like a real dude i do remember to know but it's great because it was like one to one yeah you forgot one i forgot one there you the bump in on the street's more memorable, especially because then Kira's there too.

[181] Now you're greater than some of your parts.

[182] Yeah.

[183] And I think we just chatted about like the neighborhood or something like that.

[184] Just four celebrities having a stop.

[185] I was like when we were at Mess Hall.

[186] Who came in?

[187] Terry Cruz.

[188] Yes, Dax and Terry, I guess forgot they were celebrities and like stood up and they're huge and they're like hugging and making all this noise.

[189] And I was like, oh my God, everyone in this restaurant is now too.

[190] tuned in and staring.

[191] Yeah, I was unaware of it.

[192] I was like, oh, my God, Terry, I love Terry.

[193] We did idiocry together.

[194] I hadn't seen him in a while.

[195] You know what I didn't know?

[196] And this is so crazy that you just bring up, Terry, because I was Googling today athletes who act.

[197] And I didn't realize that he had been a professional football player.

[198] I want to say like seven years or something.

[199] I would never have known that from looking at him.

[200] It's a big shot.

[201] You thought he was an equestrian.

[202] Yeah.

[203] I guess I was kind of thinking about de facto.

[204] that sometimes people do one thing well and they can do something else, great.

[205] Yes.

[206] Do you watch Euphoria by chance?

[207] Love it.

[208] Oh, you have a weird connection as well because that's Barry's son.

[209] That's right.

[210] Yeah.

[211] In some weird way, you've got to be proud of that.

[212] Who was not alive yet when we made diner, but probably was when we made sleepers.

[213] Barry is in the very, very, very short list of directors who hired me twice.

[214] The second time was Sleepers, and I think probably Sam was alive then.

[215] Yeah, children of actors, children of directors, the stress of it, when they succeed.

[216] To me, it's twice as impressive.

[217] I didn't know this until today researching you, but your daughter is the lead of as we see it, which is a Jason Kadam show.

[218] I've seen it.

[219] I loved her.

[220] I had no clue that was your daughter.

[221] Yeah.

[222] When the children of successful people are actually good and talented, I feel like it's harder than it was for you or I to pursue this.

[223] I think that everyone's journey is going to be different.

[224] Some people would look at it and say, first, have you got a built -in in into the industry.

[225] Some people believe that there's a DNA component.

[226] On the other hand, when you have parents who are successful at doing one thing, there's a definite comparison thing that's going to happen.

[227] It's going to be its own hurdle.

[228] So it's kind of like apples and oranges.

[229] Every journey to become a working, creative person is a fucking struggle.

[230] You can maybe get some doors open, but keeping those doors open and not getting them shut in your face at some point is going to be hard.

[231] I agree with you.

[232] I even look at my own children.

[233] I was walking with my seven -year -old the other day, and she made a joke.

[234] I laughed.

[235] She pointed me up here.

[236] I knocked on the wrong door.

[237] Oh, did she?

[238] Yeah, and she came out and said, hi.

[239] The tall, blonde, skinny one, or the short?

[240] She looked like she was about seven.

[241] I don't know.

[242] I'm past the point where I can age a kid.

[243] Mine are 32 and 30.

[244] It is a skill.

[245] I can do it currently, like a parlor trick now.

[246] Well, how old are you think she is?

[247] Her.

[248] How old do I think she is?

[249] I'd say.

[250] First of all, does she look familiar to you?

[251] No. That's Kira.

[252] We had, no, no, that's Monica.

[253] We do that for each guest.

[254] You imagine that would be the trippiest thing is to, like, give people's spouse it.

[255] We call weeks ahead of time, and then we got a photo over, and then we had a painted.

[256] Well, first off, she's adorable.

[257] Oh, that is the cutest baby of all time.

[258] She's probably, I'd say, four.

[259] Okay.

[260] This is great.

[261] It is commonly believed that Indian babies look older because look how fucking thick her eyebrows are.

[262] That's what's misleading.

[263] She's got, like, a full -grown woman's eyebrows.

[264] But no, she's like a fucking one and a half year old baby there.

[265] But I thought I was poor, too.

[266] When I saw that picture, I was like, oh, no, I'm like, no, I'm like, no, you're a baby.

[267] Yeah, but then my mom said Dax was right.

[268] Oh my gosh, that's wild.

[269] Right?

[270] We got a lot of threads going.

[271] So I'm walking with my seven -year -old.

[272] She makes a joke, I laugh.

[273] She makes a joke a second time, like a minute later, and I don't laugh.

[274] And she said, I went back to the well too many times, didn't I?

[275] And I was like, what seven -year -old on planet?

[276] knows that other than the child of two comedians right so in that way yes they kind of have an awareness of how the sausage is made it would take you years to learn that given i don't find that the true struggle in life is the struggle with the outside as much as the internal one so that's why i say i'm more impressed because to start off going well fuck if i do anything less than this guy who's been in 150 movies and is known globally i'll be a failure most people don't have that when they start off in this business.

[277] If I had gotten on a commercial, I would have blown away everyone in my family.

[278] No one had ever met on TV.

[279] And I'd say for Sam, too, his father's a brilliant fucking director.

[280] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[281] The thing is, is that there was a road to euphoria.

[282] Yeah.

[283] Sam worked.

[284] He put in the time.

[285] And really, like everything else, that's what you need.

[286] You need to put in the time.

[287] And that's what Sosie did.

[288] Once you decided she wanted to do it, she started doing little things short after short after short and studying and, you know, all the things you gotta do yeah she's doing great okay so back to euphoria this season i was completely overwhelmed with the young man that's kind of in the love triangle he's got a little tattoo by his eye i don't know his name unfortunately he ends up singing to her and i'm like this kid is like a revelation he's so natural and comfortable it's insane and then i come to find out that's the first time he's ever acted he's a musician so when i see that i have like two thoughts i'm like god damn it our job shouldn't be so easy to do immediately.

[289] Right.

[290] And at the same time, I don't feel it.

[291] I'm just excited by the fact that someone could be great at a lot of things.

[292] Yeah.

[293] It's a peculiar sensation, I think.

[294] Oh, dude in the NFL is like one of the funniest guys.

[295] It doesn't really matter how you get to the performance.

[296] You can sell somebody short by saying, well, it's just a musician and he opened up his mouth and he was good.

[297] I don't really buy it.

[298] But you know what?

[299] It doesn't really matter.

[300] If the person is being compelling and watchable and all those things people come to this from different roads harrison for was a carpenter he's in there like fixing up the casting area yeah which seems impossible if anybody can keep getting the gig hats off to him yeah i agree i agree okay now here's where i fillet you okay i'm curious when you think of all the many reasons that footloose was such a phenomenon i can tell you that from my brother and I. The most impactful thing of that movie was the fact that you were with your single mother moving somewhere.

[301] I think that was the first time we saw ourselves.

[302] Hmm, that's so interesting.

[303] I've never heard anybody have that reaction to the movie.

[304] They weren't doing that a ton.

[305] I think Daniel's son and Karate Kid as well, maybe.

[306] I certainly at the time didn't think to myself, oh, this is a groundbreaking kind of thing.

[307] Diane Wies played my mother.

[308] It was great to play those scenes with her.

[309] She's such a fantastic performer.

[310] And people think it's a pop movie, which is what it was, and the angry dancing and all the goofy shit about it, tractor races and shit like that.

[311] Nothing goofy, but a tractor race in my world.

[312] Watch your mouth.

[313] I know, treading on thin ice.

[314] But a couple of international harvesters pointed out of one out of that.

[315] That was actually really fun to shoot, by the way.

[316] I'm sure.

[317] It was really fun.

[318] But on the other hand, there's enough family and personal stuff threaded into that movie, which is why it's had some hang time, I think.

[319] Oh, 100%.

[320] You see this in other movies.

[321] A movie like Elf, up to that point, Will Ferrell's had medium success.

[322] That's the first movie.

[323] It's like a $180 million blockbuster.

[324] Why?

[325] Because it was really grounded in some nice themes.

[326] Favro took the time to make it actually a good movie on top of its schick or a device.

[327] John Hughes had that ability to take these things that sort of on the surface, were, yeah, here we are, you know, kind of things.

[328] And casting people like John Candy, who was kind of thought of as like maybe a charactery thing, but it was so human and so touching.

[329] That's why all this stuff holds up, even like Home Alone.

[330] Again, okay, this is a pretty simple concept, a kid gets left home.

[331] Why is that movie still so fantastic?

[332] I watch it with my kids.

[333] It's all the John Hughes stuff in it.

[334] Stranger Things has the Kay Bush song, which because they put it in Stranger Things, it went back up the charts from when it had come out, like in the 80s or 90s.

[335] And one of the last scenes in, she's having a baby, which is a John Hughes movie that I did, used a Kate Bush song.

[336] I really don't go back and look at the movies.

[337] I mean, I do if there's an absolute reason why I have to.

[338] A legal reason.

[339] So I looked at the Kate Bush song in the end of she's having a baby.

[340] And the filmmaking is so good.

[341] And the use of that song, which was not a giant hit at the time, but his way to come into the industry in these pretty broad teen comedies and stuff and then wind it into this very, very personal stuff.

[342] And what actually happened, I was also in Plains Trains and Honorable Babiles.

[343] The reason that was was because I had just finished she's having a baby.

[344] And I said to John Hughes, you're doing this movie?

[345] I'll do anything.

[346] Make me an extra.

[347] And so he put that silly scene where I'm racing Steve Martin for a cab.

[348] And then what happened was Paramount switched the order.

[349] So it looks like you did so good.

[350] Exactly.

[351] Oh, that's funny.

[352] Let's just say, John Hughes, across the board is music stuff.

[353] It's so significant.

[354] He even had a label, I think, for a while.

[355] He was really, really into music.

[356] He used to always bring me cuts of new bands.

[357] He was very into discovering new acts.

[358] He was my interdiction into simple minds, which I became obsessed with, and psychedelic furs.

[359] I mean, the soundtrack for Breakfast Club, you can't top it.

[360] Yeah.

[361] We had a relatively short relationship, but a very close one.

[362] Part of the reason was that I was playing him.

[363] The movie was by far the most personal movie that he'd ever made.

[364] We spent a ton of time together every single weekend while we were making the movie.

[365] I had just become recently single and had no real connections to anything.

[366] I wasn't married, didn't have kids living in a suitcase.

[367] I mean, and then that continued forever.

[368] But basically, he wanted me, and I was down for almost shadowing him.

[369] And he was one of those guys where it was tough, I would say, on the crew, because we'd shoot 12 hours easy.

[370] He drank a lot of coffee and would say, you know what we could do?

[371] And then we would start, like, riffing on stuff and shooting things.

[372] When we started shooting digitally, people would start saying, do that, go back, say that again.

[373] You could learn how to live.

[374] of in between life and the character as one sort of piece.

[375] To me, that's the most creative place to work.

[376] And John would do that with film.

[377] He put these thousand foot mags on the thing and just say, yeah, keep rolling.

[378] And it was costing Paramount so much money because he was just burning through film.

[379] But he loved the movie so much and it shit the bed.

[380] This is one of those weird things like Shawshank Redemption where people think Shawshank was a hit and it wasn't.

[381] Oh, it wasn't?

[382] I didn't know that.

[383] You couldn't imagine that that's the case.

[384] And I can't imagine that she's having a baby.

[385] It really didn't.

[386] I had some theories about it.

[387] Of course, John gave me a lot of theories about it.

[388] But when they flipped it, Plaint Strange Marbleville was a giant hit.

[389] And it was another really, really funny kind of thing.

[390] And she's having a baby was sad and had some goofy shit in it, but it was a very, very personal movie.

[391] A lot of critics felt that he should stay in his lane.

[392] And it broke his heart.

[393] He was a sensitive dude.

[394] Very sensitive dude.

[395] So in a funny kind of way, the failure of the movie, we kind of lost touch.

[396] I've had that.

[397] It's weird to be the face of something for somebody that they killed themselves for that didn't work.

[398] Now, we stayed close, but I will say, I think we would have had a different, like, so I did this movie as a thorough that Favreau directed, and it didn't do well.

[399] I always in the back of my mind, is like, am I the reason that that, you know, everything he's done is worked except for the thing I was in.

[400] So I think, I mean, I thought the same thing about John.

[401] I was like, okay.

[402] Yeah, I got to be in the one that, the flusher.

[403] Wait, what did he direct after that movie?

[404] Well, he directed plane trains and automobiles after she's having a baby.

[405] And then after that one, I forget.

[406] Did he go probably back to his standard?

[407] Not only did he write 20 movies that were made.

[408] There's a log of movies he wrote that no one ever made.

[409] Understudony him, too.

[410] Yeah.

[411] He is the R .L. Stein of goosebumps.

[412] We just had R .L. Stein.

[413] Oh, good?

[414] Yeah, yeah.

[415] We just had it.

[416] It was super interesting.

[417] It was really interesting.

[418] My son had a real R .L. Stein run for a while.

[419] I read a lot of R. he's written 350 books or something he was writing a book every four days during the that period oh my gosh yes i can't rent my head around it okay the footloose thing for me was just so awesome my brother and i were just so punk rock you were vaguely punk rock i don't know who you were as a person who were you at that time well interestingly i was 24 and i was playing a 17 year old so sure my ride along was to enroll myself as an exchange student in the high school in Provo, Utah.

[420] No, no, no. No, it's a true story.

[421] I was nervous about pulling off being a 17 -year -old high school student.

[422] And so I thought, well, if I'm nervous about it, I should try to do this.

[423] Only an actor could get this pulled off.

[424] Can you imagine some, like, structural engineer is like, I need to go to high school.

[425] I'm 24.

[426] Let me in your high school run your young children.

[427] You curve, get out of here.

[428] That didn't even occur to me. But you had production called up.

[429] The only person that knew was the principal of the school.

[430] No, no one of the teachers knew.

[431] Yeah, none of the teachers knew.

[432] I go in and they introduced me. I made the guy from Philadelphia because that's where I was front.

[433] In case they were going to ask questions or something like that.

[434] I had this kind of terrifying day.

[435] My parents did not move around.

[436] So I really was an East Coast urban kid.

[437] I grew up right in the middle of Philadelphia.

[438] When I'm 17, I moved right to the middle of Manhattan.

[439] So to be a fish out of water in a small country, In this case, it was also a very heavily Mormon community.

[440] You must have been the most exotic thing that ever happened.

[441] I was very exotic.

[442] My hair, through much of those years, was all based on whatever Sting happened to be doing.

[443] Like a perfect role model.

[444] Yeah.

[445] In fact, I added men at work and the police to the script because there was a scene in the script as great as Dean Pitchford, the writer was.

[446] He was sometimes a little bit out of touch with what was actually hip.

[447] So he had me talking to the Hicks going out.

[448] Have you ever heard of the Stones and the Beatles?

[449] I was like, wait a second.

[450] The assumption being that all they would listen to would be Hank Williams and George Jones.

[451] So I said, how about the police and men at work?

[452] Some new wave.

[453] Vaguely, you could say gay music back then.

[454] Not the police.

[455] I'm saying new wave bands would have been threatening in rural America.

[456] A lot of those bands had a more metrosexual kind of vibe, definitely.

[457] And another interesting thing about that was they said, let's have a scene where your mom tells you that your first day of school you should put a tie on and I said putting a tie on is cool.

[458] Yeah, it's like the opposite now.

[459] You know what I mean?

[460] During that new wave thing, the pretenders and blondie, everyone's wearing a skinny tie.

[461] That was like a thing.

[462] I switched in the script so that I wore the tie and the mother says, are you going to wear that tie?

[463] And I'm like, yeah.

[464] And then when I went into the school itself, I actually wore a tie.

[465] It actually was strangely informative.

[466] When I walked in, I had had this idea that a guy like me raised in an urban kind of situation comes to a country school.

[467] He's going to walk down the hall like a badass, like, don't fuck with me. With the second I walked in there, it was the complete opposite.

[468] I was like, holy fuck, I'm going to watch my ass.

[469] These guys are so much bigger than me. They've done some real manual labor in their life.

[470] Exactly.

[471] Exactly.

[472] And they right away don't like me. Because the girls are all interested.

[473] They're giggling.

[474] Exactly.

[475] Right.

[476] Yes.

[477] It was so much like the movie because a guy came up to me who was a lot like the Chris Penn character, Willard, and kind of said, well, I'm worried about that, man. I got you.

[478] And he kind of befriended me. I was only there for one day.

[479] Oh, wow.

[480] Okay.

[481] I would kill to interview somebody who actually was, yes, it was like, oh, yeah, this one dude came in.

[482] He must have hated it.

[483] He only did a day.

[484] My mind was off to the races.

[485] We were there for like a month or something.

[486] And I was like, how are you going to uphold all this dishonesty with like, especially the kid who's nice to you?

[487] It's like, don't work.

[488] I got you.

[489] And you're like, I'm a lying of this dude.

[490] I'm fucking 41 years old.

[491] I filed taxes a couple dozen times in my life.

[492] So for me personally, that was a huge one.

[493] But even before that was Diner, hugely impactful movie.

[494] And I was a little.

[495] I was seven, but my father had videotaped it.

[496] And we watched it every weekend we were at his house.

[497] I've seen that movie probably 35 times.

[498] Wow.

[499] And it's just the most amazing movie.

[500] And I have said many times, my first movie was this movie without a paddle.

[501] And me and Seth Green and Matthew Lillard thought we were going to make diner in the woods.

[502] Like, we literally, we must have had 20 conversations about the fact that we thought we were making diner in the woods.

[503] And then we saw it and no it was a movie for 12 -year -olds.

[504] It was my first experience with like what I thought we made and then what I saw.

[505] It was the right decision.

[506] But of the themes I was thinking about when I looked at this huge careers that you've had some really pivotal transitions that you've navigated with a lot.

[507] of grace i don't know if internally it was easy or it was hard and one of them is yeah you start in this movie diner which is i guess an art house movie in some way it's a character piece it's about the angst of 20s and becoming who you are you're fucking great in it that goes without saying you go from that directly into footloose and that's about as dramatic a change as you can get because now you're a movie star when you leave that and you're a movie star for young people and i'm imagining that came with all kinds of different things.

[508] Were you embarrassed?

[509] Yeah.

[510] I got to do this because I was on a show called Punked.

[511] And that's not a show I would have made, but I would have sucked dicks on TV.

[512] I was at the point where you name the show, I'm in it.

[513] I'm sitting here.

[514] They bought it in the room.

[515] Well, after he sucked a few dicks, they were like, yeah, this will work.

[516] That shows why I'm sitting here.

[517] And through the grace of Ashton Coutcher, who saw something to me when no one else did and he brought me back.

[518] Yet I wanted to just distance myself from that thing.

[519] I didn't want anything to do with that.

[520] I can't pinpoint what that.

[521] feeling is i guess from your point of view you're a very serious actor you went at 17 to new york like this is your life you've already decided this your life and you're in a movie diner and fucking critics love it and you got to be so proud of that movie and then you do this other thing and just the conflict of like oh now i'm on this trajectory but i kind of like the other one at your age now though what a great thing yeah absolutely now sure but i thought i knew everything for most of my life and career.

[522] And when you get old, you go, I didn't know anything.

[523] Yeah.

[524] I was an expert and I never was a child.

[525] And those combinations of things make for on the upside a tremendous amount of confidence, but on the downside, tons of mistakes and a lack of humility and the inability to take any kind of advice or look at things.

[526] For me, too, I'm guessing, avail myself to advice, to let someone mentor me. Let someone take me under their wing.

[527] You have dad, Not that I have dad shit.

[528] My desire for fame as a direct result of the fact that my father was well known in Philadelphia.

[529] Oh.

[530] You're the baby of six?

[531] I'm the youngest of six, yeah.

[532] Yeah.

[533] So attention's not widely available.

[534] Definitely was not.

[535] But I never felt like, oh, geez, my parents still paying any attention to me. I didn't want the attention.

[536] I wanted to just do my own thing and get out of the house and build it myself.

[537] Yeah.

[538] But when the footloose thing happened, if there had been a mentor to say, this is great do the cover of all of these magazines don't push back on this shit have some fun with it and there was a certain level of self -sabotage that happened because it just didn't feel like being the as you said kind of actor that I wanted to be a serious actor whatever the fuck that is yeah I mean a serious actor is someone that takes their work seriously you should pretend you're in diner yeah always exactly yes exactly yeah and then on the next round you see it all the time People come out, it becomes a big, giant hit, and it's a pop culture kind of hit.

[539] But the director who's going to make his next serious movie is going to be getting pressure from the studio to use that guy.

[540] There was a lot of years after that where, because I was really not enjoying it, I didn't like the interviews, I didn't like the pictures, I didn't like going on to talk shows.

[541] Do you know what it was you didn't like about it?

[542] I will say especially at that time in the 80s, there was this notion that the real actors, De Niro, all these guys, you didn't know who they were.

[543] Right.

[544] And that was part of the recipe.

[545] I think that was part of it was, that was the pedigree to which I was aspiring.

[546] Yeah.

[547] And also, I had come from a lot of theater.

[548] I just really, really wanted to do that and then do the odd Michael Chamino movie.

[549] So it didn't feel comfortable to me. I've gotten so much more used to it.

[550] And I realize now that it's a means to an end, basically.

[551] You just want opportunities to be able to play parts.

[552] Well, I think that's explicitly clear with you.

[553] One of my fascinations with you is like, what's the source of the hunger?

[554] It's so impressive.

[555] Yeah, I don't know.

[556] You fucking love acting.

[557] I do.

[558] I really do.

[559] I mean, at this point, it's obvious because there's even people that work as long as you have and as much as you have, but you can see a little isom in it.

[560] It's like, they're maybe afraid to not be on a set.

[561] The things don't go well when they're not on a set.

[562] That can keep people busy.

[563] Yes.

[564] That's not who I've assessed you to be.

[565] at all.

[566] I think you're fine being off of a set.

[567] I'm fine being off the set, but I love the time between action and cut.

[568] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[569] The rest of it gets more and more tiresome.

[570] It doesn't seem like you are also in it at all for approval, which I do think most actors a big percentage of it is that.

[571] This is the thing about the footloose thing.

[572] I mean it for the approval of the work, but not of me. Right, right, right, right, right.

[573] I couldn't care less what people think about it.

[574] You want to be invisible after.

[575] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[576] And every other.

[577] Everything that we do, present company excluded, is about, you know, approving me. I'm a huge approval, junkie.

[578] I'm fucking addicted to approval.

[579] I don't.

[580] I can wake up and say, listen, I've done my best.

[581] I'm trying to do best by the world and the people that I know and my kids.

[582] All I'm interested in is being seen in the work.

[583] Okay.

[584] So I will admit I'm an elitist.

[585] So I'm not in search of so much broad mass appeal, but there are still people.

[586] people like you want to bump into sting yeah yes and for him to go holy smokes i'm addicted to city on the hill sting has never told me that he watches city on the hill i was at the chateau marmon in about 1980 something footloose had just come out and someone told me that he was in the in the hotel and i've never done this before or since in my life i can honestly tell you it's really not my style But I just picked up the phone.

[587] I said, can you ring Stings for him?

[588] And he picked up the phone and I said, hey, this is Kevin Bacon.

[589] And there was this long pause and he went, fill me in.

[590] And I went, I don't know, I just wanted to say that, okay, bye.

[591] And I literally hung up.

[592] You ran out of gas.

[593] Yeah.

[594] Oh, my God, fill me in is such a left turn.

[595] I'll never forget it.

[596] I'll never forget it.

[597] Maybe in your mind you workshop, like, God, he's probably either going to say like, fuck off or maybe he knows me. Maybe soft wheelers.

[598] I got a out -co.

[599] Right, but you've got some options on them.

[600] But fill me in.

[601] You're not even pretending that that one's coming your way.

[602] Fill me in.

[603] Oh, my God, I'm borrowing that.

[604] I love that.

[605] It's incredible.

[606] Oh, sting.

[607] He doesn't disappoint.

[608] No, he doesn't.

[609] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[610] What's up, guys?

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[628] The other thing I'm really interested in is like the amount of talent you were surrounded by as well early on.

[629] So even like the footloose thing, you had already done a play with Sean Penn and with Al Kimmer, which by the way, did you watch his documentary?

[630] Yeah.

[631] It must have, right?

[632] Yeah, that was really wild.

[633] I can't imagine what it's like, yeah, watching it for you.

[634] Yeah, it was pretty trippy.

[635] Well, first off, amazing that Val had those cameras.

[636] I'm not asking you to comment on this, but for me, that was the most peculiar part.

[637] I'm just trying to imagine what personality type carries a camera everywhere and films themselves so often.

[638] It doesn't shock me he's an actor, and he was brilliant.

[639] Like fucking Doc Holiday, how are you going to top that performance?

[640] I mean, just legendary.

[641] Yeah, amazing, yeah.

[642] I think Val was really comfortable if you told him exactly who he was.

[643] And I think when he wasn't latched on to that, he was a little adrift.

[644] And I think all that filming was like trying to observe, who am I when I'm not a character?

[645] Mind you, huge fan.

[646] It's a character study of like, he's a character.

[647] His writings and his style and, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's fascinating.

[648] He's fascinating.

[649] When I saw the footage of specifically that play with you and Sean, I thought, this guy's annoying the Here's what I mean just to say this There's nothing I hated more than when someone had a fucking video camera That's like my most hated thing is ironic because I wanted to be in movies but if some joker just pointed a video Well it was unusual now because everyone's got a camera But then it was just like You felt so awkward Immediately like what are you filming Nothing's happening here That's why we mooned them I guess I guess that's why we dropped trial But anyways I wonder Do you think as well That having worked with Sean I don't know what that experience was like for you yeah great we did that and then many years later we did mystic river which was great to you kind of circle back sean's awesome i mean i love love working with him he's just so fucking awesome and he's someone that also i would imagine you wouldn't mind being when you're thinking about i want to be a serious actor and i don't want to be someone who's out on tv every night sean did that he very early on said i'm not doing interviews you'll be happy to know he did this show just so you feel better yeah he was definitely following in the footsteps of that of keeping more mystery and I think that one of the great things about that which I didn't have which was the confidence to be able to say no it's been taking me a long time to learn the power of no you just want to keep doors open yeah so the voice in your head is like if I'm the dude who's always they're just going to stop calling right that's the fear I think well also that people early on say well you know it's part of the job so I go oh okay this is the first time them doing the job so I guess yeah maybe it is part of the job well someone told me They're not paying you to act in the movie.

[650] You should do that for free.

[651] They're paying you to sell the movie.

[652] I see the merit in that.

[653] That's such an interesting thing, and it's true, except for...

[654] Have you ever noticed that you do the same amount of interviews for the ones that go right in the shitter as you do for the hits?

[655] And sometimes less.

[656] I can't remember when I saw Leonardo McCabeer on a talk show.

[657] His shit seems to work out just fine without that.

[658] Taylor Swift, too.

[659] She's doing just great not talking to anyone.

[660] She seems to be fine.

[661] One of my curiosities was, I guess maybe at that time, time.

[662] No one would have been heralding Mickey Rourke in the way they ultimately did.

[663] Mickey was hot.

[664] He was.

[665] Because I think that body heat had come out.

[666] He had that little turn in body.

[667] And it was kind of like, who the fuck is that guy?

[668] I would say of us, he was hot.

[669] And I think Danny had been in something.

[670] Was it breaking away?

[671] But it's not like we couldn't walk around Baltimore.

[672] How did you feel relative to that early on like doing a play with Sean, who's clearly fucking brilliant?

[673] And then Mickey Rourke's clearly fucking brilliant.

[674] Were you comparing yourself or did you feel quite at home was it inspiring was it threatening was it nothing i always will compare how i'm doing and there's always going to be somebody that's doing better sting was the north star and that's the other thing i'm always way more enamored with musicians than i am with with actors i love actors but i also have to say that coming from the theater i always felt that we had a responsibility to play the play and to play the scene.

[675] It had to be a group effort.

[676] During the preview process of doing a play, you really feel that and you really feel like we're all kind of in this together.

[677] You've got to get that thing right.

[678] And you've got to throw the ball back and forth and you've got to listen to each other.

[679] And just like a band, you have to groove.

[680] The drummer has to be hearing the bass player.

[681] That's what theater is kind of like.

[682] After opening night, sometimes those dynamics change only because in New York, the whole thing was predicated on one man's opinion, which was the guy from the New York Times, whoever happened to be the New York Times.

[683] And that New York Times article says so -and -so is better than so -and -so.

[684] All of a sudden, the dynamic shifts.

[685] Everybody comes in the fucking theater has read that it's such a small group.

[686] It's not like they're going to see Aladdin or Lion King.

[687] What I was doing was series theater, and then you looked at that one performance, and then things can shift.

[688] But what I learned when I went into film and television was that it was a more isolating, more hierarchical world, which is where you start to compare.

[689] You start measuring the length of your trailers.

[690] You know what I mean?

[691] You start seeing who gets called first, who they're bringing the fucking sandwich to.

[692] Even one that blew my mind in without a paddle, I started noticing, oh, they always shoot my close -up last.

[693] Shoot a close -up blast?

[694] Which makes sense.

[695] Those two guys had much longer careers than I did.

[696] And if I improv something earlier, they might use it in their close -up.

[697] Like, this is just, oh, I got to be aware of this.

[698] Lots of status markers.

[699] Yeah.

[700] Not to mention, when we shoot, We start as an ensemble because the camera is way over there.

[701] But then all this gear starts to come between you and the person that you're supposed to be connecting with and more and more gear.

[702] And then it gets to the point where they say, you know, don't even look over here.

[703] Look at this little X on the thing and you go, okay, I don't even need this mother park.

[704] Yeah, yeah.

[705] So to get past that in film and television and try to hold on to the idea of the ensemble of the no small parts is a challenge.

[706] Yeah.

[707] So I did a movie with Barrel Streep and John C. Ryle, Dave Strathar.

[708] Love them all.

[709] Great actors left and right.

[710] But once we get in there, I roll up the sleeves and I don't go, she's going to get more love than me. I just got to do my shit and try to, you know, be good.

[711] If you're lucky enough to do it long enough, you definitely stop that racket.

[712] When you're young, you're scared.

[713] You're like, is this thing going to work out?

[714] The funny thing on Diner was, and you'll relate to this from the comedy point of view, is that Barry brought us down to Baltimore.

[715] had these rehearsals where we would sit around and kind of start to improv.

[716] Paul Reisard showed up with no lines, basically.

[717] And Danny was great at improvising.

[718] Gutenberg was so inherently just funny without even really meaning to be.

[719] He's the great counterpuncher.

[720] Yeah.

[721] And Mickey had his very strange kind of thing.

[722] And I was like, oh shit.

[723] Barry starts laughing at all the shit that they're saying, and I feel completely inadequate in this world.

[724] Because I'm not a second city.

[725] You see, I had none of that.

[726] I was saying lines of playwrights.

[727] So I was like, I'm fucked, man. But I made the decision that I would be the guy that didn't talk that got a kick out of these other guys.

[728] Yeah, yeah.

[729] And ultimately, that worked because you couldn't have them all be clever.

[730] So, you know, kind of figuring out in that situation what your lane is is also something to do.

[731] Okay, but here's where one can't rehearse.

[732] or practice for, and this is another big topic I want to talk about, is you're just cool.

[733] You're just a cool fucking dude.

[734] I'm watching that movie as a young kid, and my brother and I are like, I want to be that dude.

[735] He looks cool.

[736] There's no cool master class one can take.

[737] After Footloose, you did Quicksilver.

[738] Now, for three years, we were talking about when we grew up, we were going to be bicycle messengers, and then you're in a river movie, and now we want to be river guides.

[739] You just were cool as fuck.

[740] You've always been cool.

[741] And I wanted to ask you, who did you think cool and what do you think cool is?

[742] You mean besides Sting?

[743] Well, we know Sting is cool.

[744] Besides the high water market, it was mostly, you know, rock and rollers, a level of I don't give a fuck.

[745] Cool is such a specific kind of thing.

[746] What do we think it is?

[747] It's something universally coveted?

[748] Yeah, I think what cool for me is everyone I was attracted to is like, this guy doesn't care.

[749] he has conviction about who he is and that's that he's not going to be bridled with the pressure of everyone around him he's going to walk his path fucking confident path less chosen yeah it's like conviction and a lack of concern what anyone else thinks about that and some people kind of intrinsically have it that's something that i consciously of course not sort of like aspired to if i'm being perfectly honest.

[750] I think if you try to be cool, you're not cool.

[751] I don't mind that.

[752] Sometimes Monica says I'm cool and I love it.

[753] When did I said that.

[754] Play the tapes, Rob, rewind the tapes.

[755] But I dig that one.

[756] I'm like, yeah, okay.

[757] I like that better than other couples to make me much more uncomfortable.

[758] But you're cool?

[759] Yeah, I'll take that.

[760] Sure.

[761] Nothing wrong with that.

[762] Yeah.

[763] I mean, if I'm smart and cool, great.

[764] Let's get the cool first.

[765] I've never been accused of being smart.

[766] Can you tell us a little bit because you mentioned it really quick And I keep spinning in my head when you said you self -sabotaged.

[767] How did that come out in what way?

[768] Well, they were bombs.

[769] I did a lot of bombs right after footloos, one after another.

[770] And I was told that I was going to get free studio bombs.

[771] And I kept getting leads in movies, but they weren't performing one after another after another.

[772] The only people I've interviewed who I think totally get it are politicians.

[773] Who, like, publicly said, please vote for me. Yeah.

[774] And then they didn't vote for you.

[775] Yeah.

[776] What really worked for me was, you know, you talk about transition.

[777] So there was a moment where I kind of went, okay, I'm in this kind of existential moment about career.

[778] And it's not like I thought, well, I got to do something else.

[779] I just thought there was something that needed to shift.

[780] And an agent of mine said, I remember seeing you off Broadway.

[781] You're a character actor.

[782] I was like, oh, okay, because I thought I was a leading man. Some cool as fuck.

[783] The Shepherd Boys told me I was supposed.

[784] I'm going to ride this out.

[785] You don't know what you're talking about.

[786] They got 10 -speed bicycles.

[787] They're killing each other and bringing each other back to life.

[788] I mean, they're doing all of it.

[789] So I did JFK, and that was a tiny little part, and it literally flipped it for me. People sometimes go, well, wasn't that a great moment?

[790] It never really feels like, that was the thing.

[791] Life meanders along in a different sort of way.

[792] But that one definitely was a...

[793] And you were honest about that, by the way, because at that time, did an interview with the New York Times.

[794] And you said, if I want to be in A movies with A list directors, I'm going to have to be a character director.

[795] Well, first off, I'm amazed that the New York Times did an interview with me. Those fuckers haven't knocked on my door.

[796] And that's the only paper I read.

[797] So let me just say, okay, yeah.

[798] But the quote is, you are honest about it, which again, is a cool move.

[799] You're not like hiding from that decision.

[800] You're owning that decision.

[801] Here's the thing.

[802] I want to be in great movies.

[803] And this is the way I can be in great movies.

[804] You rattle off like 10 awesome fucking movies in a row.

[805] You're in JFK, a few good men, Apollo 13.

[806] Sleepers, by the way, I just fucking love that movie.

[807] But it's just really funny because you didn't want to be a leading man. You were told you're supposed to, so you're forcing yourself into this box that doesn't feel right.

[808] So, of course, that didn't work.

[809] Well, the corny thing is that actually, before I decided I wanted to be a serious actor when I was about 17, when I was about 13, all I wanted to be was a pop star.

[810] I didn't care if it was music.

[811] I didn't care of it was acting.

[812] I wanted to be on the cover of Tiger Beat or 16 magazine.

[813] I wanted to be Bobby Sherman or David Cassidy or Michael Jackson or Donnie Osmond.

[814] And when I started taking acting classes and went to New York, the whole pop star thing went right out of my head.

[815] I couldn't give a shit about it.

[816] And then you became one on accident.

[817] And then I became one, yes, as you would say in the middle of the country, on accident.

[818] Oh, that's a good point.

[819] Yeah, do you know that?

[820] No. But I say on accident.

[821] And I'm from Michigan.

[822] I know you're from Michigan.

[823] I know.

[824] And the East Coast, they never ever says on accident.

[825] No one should.

[826] Now that you pointed out, it makes zero sense.

[827] There's a few of them that come out.

[828] Do you say online or in line?

[829] Byline.

[830] What?

[831] Wait, in line.

[832] If you're standing in line or standing online.

[833] I notice in New York they say on cue or online.

[834] I say on.

[835] Whoa.

[836] Me too.

[837] We're learning all the colloquial regional colloquial terms.

[838] Where are you from?

[839] Georgia.

[840] Would you say on accident?

[841] I did that on accident.

[842] Yeah.

[843] You would.

[844] Oh, good.

[845] I think so.

[846] It's wrong.

[847] It's definitely objectively wrong.

[848] Later, I won't take up your interview with it, but I'm going to give that some thought.

[849] I'm going to try to make a case for why it makes sense.

[850] The New York Times did a really cool thing a few years ago where they listed, I think it was 10 questions.

[851] Oh, they can pinpoint.

[852] I feel like we did that on here on a back check.

[853] It was cool.

[854] And they got me. Nailed it.

[855] They nailed it.

[856] Yes.

[857] It's like, would you say, if the sun shines out and it's rain.

[858] would you say the devil's beaten his wife?

[859] That was a really fun one.

[860] Yeah, to me, it just proved we're just so predictable as people.

[861] 10 questions and they can tell us where we're from almost to the county.

[862] I know, think how many espionage movies we watch when we were younger where it's like, no one had that list.

[863] It's like they couldn't figure out who the guy was, you know, it's all they would have to do is like, okay, so it's raining in the sun's out.

[864] What do you call that?

[865] And they would have been like, you're from fucking Skokie, Illinois.

[866] Case closed.

[867] You wanted to be a pop star and then you were.

[868] And you said that's because your dad?

[869] Well, my dad was a city planner in the city of Philadelphia.

[870] He was very, very famous in Philadelphia and very famous amongst city planners.

[871] He was not a wealthy man because he basically worked for the city.

[872] So in Philly, his name was in the papers all the time and stuff like that.

[873] And my father was very, very into his own press.

[874] Sure, sure.

[875] He saved all of his clippings.

[876] He would bring home articles and share them with the family.

[877] He was extremely into being famous.

[878] Oh, wow.

[879] And I was like, I got to beat him at this game.

[880] Well, it's twofold, right?

[881] Because it's like I defined myself in opposition to my dad.

[882] So literally, my marching orders were like, whatever he was, I was going to be the opposite of.

[883] So it's ironic, you might have been able to enjoy the fame thing if you hadn't hated the fact that he was a little narcissistic about his own fame.

[884] I think so.

[885] And I've never kept a clipping.

[886] I don't have anything lying around.

[887] An old, old acquaintance of mine found in their basement or something like that an unopened pack of fan mail.

[888] For Columbia Pictures, it was back from Quicksilver.

[889] No way.

[890] And they're one from Dave and Dax Shepard.

[891] I'll look.

[892] They're unopened.

[893] They're really funny, too.

[894] Oh, wow.

[895] Yeah, I started opening the other day.

[896] Oh, my God.

[897] Yeah, it's crazy.

[898] Yeah.

[899] You know, I'm so sympathetic to, you know, your father for me at least it's a blast like i read about myself a ton it took me doing it and then realizing i feel worse after this and so now i'm going to stop but there's no way i couldn't have the phase where i was like reading everything about myself i get it's a confirmation that it's not a dream maybe i'm not saying that i don't have that need for acknowledgement you know i would say that like 99 .9 % of being famous is good it's mostly people saying i love you and yeah giving you free shit i'm not that person that goes oh god i wish i'd never had it it was not the people as much as the written word and you know i stopped reading reviews which was a great weight off my shoulder probably 25 30 years ago well that's why you missed the new york times article oh that's must be it that's right yeah okay how much do we love katherine hon oh my god i love katherine so much she's so fucking special isn't she's so special and making that show i love dick with Catherine and with Griffin Dunn, who I've known.

[900] Griffin Dunn would be a person, A, who's cool and B, who has a career that I like, American Werewolf from London.

[901] I was like, fuck that guy.

[902] I want to be that fucking guy.

[903] Doing that show with those guys, so great.

[904] The fact that that didn't continue was a real head scratcher for me. Obviously, in their algorithm, not enough people watched.

[905] But on the other hand, it was not a super expensive show.

[906] And it was like making a cool little indie, putting out this wild kind of thing and working with great people.

[907] Well, by the way, though, that was the time frame where there were some casualties that were unjustified because the whole viewership was falling precipitously.

[908] And they kept comparing things to the year before, but then every year it was dropping by 25%.

[909] Right.

[910] But I love doing that show.

[911] So that was, I guess that was going to be the last transition I asked you about, which is, so you do character acting for a while, you're in all these great movies.

[912] And then it's a big decision to go to television.

[913] It was.

[914] Yeah, it was a decision that, because I came up in a time when, honestly, if the agent had said, have you thought about a series, I would fire the agent.

[915] Yep.

[916] It'd be like saying, are you going to do a KFC commercial?

[917] It really was.

[918] By the way, do you have a line on a KFC commercial?

[919] Well, now, too.

[920] That was the other thing.

[921] By the way, my wife and I have always done commercials, but we were right at the beginning.

[922] And I said to her, Robert Downey Jr. is in the biggest movie ever made.

[923] Annie selling HTC phones.

[924] Whatever people fucking think, it's all over.

[925] Go be good in everything people see you in, and that's all that matters.

[926] That's what I feel.

[927] And, you know, that's the other thing is that Hollywood really likes to come up with these goofy -ass rules.

[928] According to who?

[929] It's like the three bombs rule that I talked about.

[930] You can do commercials.

[931] You just can't do one in the U .S. Right.

[932] I was in a Japanese commercial for what they called it, Power Drink.

[933] It's like a Red Bull type thing.

[934] Years and years ago.

[935] Before Lost in Translation?

[936] Yeah, before Lost in Translation.

[937] So when you were watching that movie, were you like 100 % oh my god 100 % i was like that's so close although we shot the commercial in hawaii oh that's good i mean i had the benefit of watching kira on set for seven years on the closer she was having a great time every year putting on a gown i was walking behind her holding her train and it was not only the money and the accolades and the whole thing but the idea that she could take a character and just kind of live with it for a while yes and keep kind of exploring it.

[938] And then simultaneously, I'm watching The Wire and Dexter and the Sopranos and the Sopranos six feet under.

[939] What I realized was that writers up until this point of this beginning of the golden age, not to take anything away from the great sitcom writers, but the drama writers often got the shit end of the stick on movies.

[940] You start making the movie and you and I and we all just start fucking around with their lines.

[941] They get fired immediately.

[942] Bring somebody in to tighten up the script it was a very very disrespectful sort of a system that we had created and writers are kings and tv they're above the director right so they were like you know what fuck this let's go over and start making tv and so like a lot of other actors i was like well i just need to go where the writing was now that being said to make that call and to say all right guys i want to throw my hat in the ring for television was a very very tough call for me to make but literally in the first two weeks weeks, I read three of the best scripts that I'd read for years, pilots, none of which got made, but I was like, that's a great idea.

[943] Yeah.

[944] That's a part I haven't done.

[945] So it's now a huge part of my life.

[946] I'll never not do TV.

[947] I'm just curious that you have all the same experiences idea, which is like, A, every movie, I fall in love with it, and then it has to end, and then I'm sad, and then I miss everyone.

[948] And I'm like, oh, wait, I get to do this for a long time.

[949] That's incredible.

[950] Two, this lifestyle is awesome.

[951] I live at home.

[952] I drive to work.

[953] I come back.

[954] I'm not out of town, missing my life.

[955] And then to the cure point, and I remember saying this to Kristen, like, year two of the show, I came home and I'm like, I don't think I'm doing enough or something.

[956] And she goes, no, hon, this is the magic of TV.

[957] You no longer have to think about your character.

[958] Like, you just know it intrinsically.

[959] And then you just exist as this thing.

[960] And I'm like, well, this is incredible.

[961] What a feeling.

[962] Do you have all those kind of like revelations?

[963] All of those things.

[964] It's really nice to live at home.

[965] But I don't know that I would necessarily put that at the top.

[966] And in terms of the being sad when things end, I've had so many sad endings that I've kind of gotten past it.

[967] I say to everybody, we will see each other down the right.

[968] And you know the weird thing is that we do.

[969] I circle back into projects with crew members that I've worked with.

[970] Pretty much everything that I do now, somebody comes up and says, hey, remember, you know, I was doing craft service on me?

[971] Those two things are true, but they're not quite as important.

[972] But to me, the thing is, if you get a two -hour movie, even if you're the lead of the movie, There's only a certain amount of things that you're going to go through.

[973] If you can live for a few seasons, you can say, well, what would happen if, you know, he got sick?

[974] Whatever it is, all these things can get explored.

[975] And I completely agree with you about you get to the point where you just got that flow.

[976] And that's the sweet spot.

[977] You could have handed me a senior six on Parenthood.

[978] You could hand me four pages and I look at it while I'm getting my makeup on and I walk out there and I do it perfectly.

[979] It's true.

[980] It's just because that's what happens.

[981] Yeah, that's so true.

[982] And then you go away to something and you're like, oh, God, that's right.

[983] I got to remember.

[984] Well, I also feel that in this current situation that we're in, and I think that this kind of speaks to a lot of actors, not so much in my position, but more in the rank and file.

[985] What we really need to do is to get rid of these silly exclusivities.

[986] You can't tell me that I'm going to do six -episode show, So not applying this to me, I'm applying to the rest of the members of our union.

[987] I'm only going to get paid for six episodes, and I can't work on another platform.

[988] Get real.

[989] Yeah, they're asking you to be in retirement seven months a year.

[990] Exactly.

[991] And I think that we need to continue to push back against that.

[992] I agree with you.

[993] Just across the board, that exclusivity is bullshit and just punishes actors.

[994] Also, the idea that you do a pilot and they have a year to decide whether or not you pick it up.

[995] And during that time, you're not allowed to work.

[996] It's like going broke.

[997] Yes, yes.

[998] So anyway, that's my little rant against the man. I co -sign on it.

[999] I co -sign.

[1000] It's ridiculous.

[1001] Wait, real quick.

[1002] When you were on the red carpet and you were holding the dress, was it a little bit of a hit to the ego when you were on the red carpet behind Kira?

[1003] I'm just curious about that.

[1004] I'll tell you what I feel about that.

[1005] Kira spent a lot of years with me when I was more well -known and make more money and all those kinds of things.

[1006] If the tables had been flipped and it was me, you starting with her, I don't know if I would have been able to handle it.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] Because I was already had done my thing, I had nothing but support for her and for that moment.

[1009] She, on the other hand, to her credit, has never been competitive with me. It's part of why it works.

[1010] My wins are her wins.

[1011] Then that goes both ways.

[1012] Yeah, that's nice.

[1013] It's hard to do, I think.

[1014] It is hard to do, yeah.

[1015] I was okay with my wife being more desirable, but I had this male hang up that I was supposed to be making the most money in the house to be honest i didn't get that peace with it until we had kids and i recognize like oh all this money is for them i mean i definitely for better for worse was raised to be the provider i guess probably my parents were traditional in some kind of ways but they weren't backward yeah that was a rough one for me yeah okay they and them this is an incredible concept for a horror movie it's a gay conversion camp you are the counselor yes tremendous first speech I'm like, well, this can't be true, but I'm buying it.

[1016] If I'm them, so they all arrive.

[1017] They know they're at conversion camp.

[1018] No one wants to be there.

[1019] They're forced.

[1020] And he and me is like, listen, I don't care who you are.

[1021] We're not here to make someone not gay.

[1022] God loves all you.

[1023] And that's the last time I'm going to talk about God.

[1024] I mean, I'm in.

[1025] Yeah, well, that was part of John Logan's fantastic writing.

[1026] I mean, he's gladiator and Skyfall and Aviator.

[1027] I mean, he's one of the great screenwriters.

[1028] and also great playwright as well.

[1029] It started as a playwright.

[1030] I'd known John for a really long time.

[1031] Speaking of television, there was one that he wrote that was kind of like the one that got away.

[1032] It was one of those shows that I read and I really wanted to do it.

[1033] It was such a cool idea and such a great character and then it was like a regime change and it got sent the way.

[1034] Anyway, a whole thing fell apart.

[1035] But we had sort of remained in contact every once in a while I would check in with him see how he was doing if he had anything new going on.

[1036] And he wrote this, as a reaction to the horror that there was still people out there that believe that you could be converted to be something that you're not.

[1037] I think the statistic is something like 50 ,000 kids a year are put through some form of conversion therapy.

[1038] You're 50 ,000?

[1039] Yeah, today.

[1040] It should so be against the law.

[1041] It's crazy to me that that would be illegal.

[1042] Yeah, it's crazy.

[1043] It is a state -to -state kind of thing.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] So talking with him about this character, there's an option where he would be a buzz cut military, drill sergeant mega cap wearing sort of dude with a firearm a stereotype kind of thing and we talked about him being just as reasonable as possible and almost like a deadhead more of like a hippie kind of vibe and outdoors you kind of do that you would go on a camping trip with uses tom's toothpaste you guys would know is that a callback oh yeah it's a deep deep cut callback that's a callback that's a call back oh my god two hours ago you were home that You're back on.

[1046] Patiently.

[1047] No, but you're so inviting.

[1048] I'm like, well, fuck, I'll see how this goes.

[1049] I mean, I think this guy might really be all about finding their truth, whatever that may be.

[1050] Yeah, we tried to see if there was a possibility that somebody could be watching it and be thinking, well, that kind of makes sense.

[1051] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1052] By the way, it's my favorite kind of writing when you make it really hard.

[1053] We just had Brian Cranston on.

[1054] He was talking about that he had met Gilligan by being in an episode of X -Files.

[1055] And the premise was that this guy that gets in the back seat has got something in his head.

[1056] And if Mulder doesn't drive at 65 miles an hour, his head's going to blow up.

[1057] And he wrote it that the guy he was playing was detestable racist piece of shit.

[1058] Anti -Semitic, like, horrible.

[1059] Like you'd want his head to blow up.

[1060] And he's like, that's the genius of Gilligan.

[1061] It's like, fuck, what's he do now?

[1062] Is he still going to save this piece of shit?

[1063] Is he still going to try to kill himself to save this animal?

[1064] If you walk out with the MAGA hat on and everything, I'm like, yeah, okay, I know where this is going.

[1065] You're so fucking likable.

[1066] That's what I try to do.

[1067] Yeah, you're incredibly likable, incredibly inviting.

[1068] It gives us someplace to go, too.

[1069] But you've played good guys and you've played bad guys.

[1070] Is it fun to pop back and forth?

[1071] It's not so much going back and forth between the good and the bad of it as it is just someone's shoes that I haven't walked in recently or at least exactly.

[1072] or I can find something new to explore.

[1073] Sometimes that's just a function of age, really.

[1074] A lot of people guess that bad guys are, quote, unquote, more fun, that the fun is the complexity, the fun is the reach, the fun is taking a big swing, you know, the fun is good writing.

[1075] Well, eventually you'll get to take an incredible turn.

[1076] He turns really hard.

[1077] It's a cool movie because the horror part of it is really the idea of the conversion therapy, But it's also very empowering for young LGBTQ people to see themselves in a film represented in a different kind of way.

[1078] Well, it's wish fulfillment, to fight back.

[1079] And not to give too much away, but it's not really about us killing all those people.

[1080] No, no, no. What it reminded me conceptually a lot of is Get Out.

[1081] And with Get Out and probably some things before, Jordan and other people have proved that horror can also make comments on things.

[1082] and sometimes be funny, and sometimes have a social commentary.

[1083] What's interesting about they slash them is that he takes this structurally, he puts it right in the Friday the 13th land.

[1084] It's in camp.

[1085] Things happen in a very, very traditional 70s slasher movie format.

[1086] It's not elevated horror in that kind of way.

[1087] It's only elevated to the extent that it's dealing with this issue.

[1088] Yeah, it's the formula.

[1089] The way a comedy is a formula.

[1090] Exactly, which is cool.

[1091] So do you know he was in Friday 13th?

[1092] The original?

[1093] I was in the original, yeah.

[1094] I was in the first one, yeah.

[1095] So what's, I imagine a little meta for you is to know that a lot of the pop culture references, you would just have to, out of necessity, use in your life, you're involved.

[1096] Yeah, I know.

[1097] How crazy.

[1098] Like, if you're ever going to say, oh, it's got to follow this blueprint, it's got to be like Friday 13th, I'm going to say that.

[1099] Right.

[1100] Yeah, right.

[1101] It's like very meta.

[1102] It is.

[1103] That's embarrassing.

[1104] No, it's not embarrassing.

[1105] Well, it happens to me. Like, punked became a word.

[1106] That wasn't a word.

[1107] And I'm watching movies all the time.

[1108] And they're like, what, you just punk me?

[1109] And I'm like, I'm so weird.

[1110] That's so weird.

[1111] Like, we invented that word.

[1112] And now I would use it if I had to say, would they punk you?

[1113] That's cool.

[1114] Yeah, but of course, that's one thing.

[1115] And there's so many things you would probably reference naturally that you're in.

[1116] Like, I knew Monica wouldn't have known that.

[1117] That's really funny.

[1118] Where did you shoot this thing?

[1119] We shot in Georgia.

[1120] Oh.

[1121] Yeah.

[1122] I was in a town called Covington.

[1123] The camp itself was probably another, I don't know, half hour or something back.

[1124] This part would make me uncomfortable if I were you.

[1125] That cast is largely a new cast.

[1126] They're young.

[1127] You're Kevin Bacon.

[1128] Is that stressful?

[1129] I wouldn't say stressful.

[1130] I'm not naive.

[1131] It doesn't seem like you're comfortable with being a legend or anyone that people are like looking up to.

[1132] But you can just kind of cut that off at the knees pretty quickly.

[1133] As you did backstage at the CMTs with me. Right.

[1134] You can just kind of roll up your sleeves and say, come on the way.

[1135] What are we doing?

[1136] I mean, here's what's important to me that people are in a enjoyable and fun, safe, working environment.

[1137] I'm not someone that thrives with chaos.

[1138] I like to take it seriously.

[1139] If I'm doing a scene that is a heavy scene, I'm not going to be joking around in between takes, and people may go, oh, God, he gets very dark.

[1140] I can't turn it on and off like a tap.

[1141] Some people can't.

[1142] But you don't have to call me by my character name.

[1143] And you're allowed to look me in the eye.

[1144] It's not on the call sheet that you can't, I look, I'm in the audience.

[1145] And in the case of this thing, you know, John and I talked about, there was a level of built -in sort of leadership that had to happen.

[1146] There were a lot of very young performers, people that hadn't really done that much.

[1147] And in fact, he structured it so that that spurs speech was the first thing we shot.

[1148] Oh, it was.

[1149] I don't even care if it's a child.

[1150] I want us to be performers together.

[1151] Like this stage.

[1152] You want to be equal?

[1153] Yeah, I do.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] I do.

[1156] It helps.

[1157] Do you have the mentor gene in you?

[1158] Not really.

[1159] Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

[1160] I asked it for a very specific reason.

[1161] So I've recently realized I love it.

[1162] That's awesome.

[1163] And in doing it, I've realized how wrong I was about ever accepting anyone's mentorship.

[1164] Like I always thought maybe I didn't deserve it or don't waste your time on me or I want to act like I know everything and I can't be vulnerable enough to say that you might be able to teach me something.

[1165] All those myriad of reasons.

[1166] What I never anticipated is that the person who's mentoring is getting so much joy out of it.

[1167] Like, that would have never occurred to me that it's for them.

[1168] How do you do it?

[1169] Well, Ricky, who your daughter works with.

[1170] I've known him since he was doing stand -up before he got his first show.

[1171] For whatever reason, he started asking me questions.

[1172] I always made a bunch of time for him.

[1173] I've spent more time talking to Ricky than you can imagine about things he's doing.

[1174] And I find every time I got off, I was like, I loved that experience.

[1175] But it really opened my eyes up to like, oh, I was actually kind of denying those people something as well, the ones that wanted to help me. Okay.

[1176] I'll start menstruate.

[1177] Send me over your overflow.

[1178] Call Bacon.

[1179] Here's his number.

[1180] Dax.

[1181] Fill me in.

[1182] Yeah, fill me in.

[1183] Thank you.

[1184] That's a callback, too.

[1185] That's a callback, money.

[1186] We have two juicy callbacks in this episode.

[1187] There's usually only one.

[1188] Well, anyways, I watched it, and I think it's a really, really cool concept.

[1189] It's a really cool way to explore that just as I loved Get Out's approach to racism this way, I think still, as much as those gay characters, or trans characters on things, it's almost like they're just there sometimes.

[1190] It's not really an exploration of what their experience is.

[1191] And this is fully that.

[1192] I mean, I think if I was a gay kid or a trans kid or whatever, I would like this movie like I liked Fullo's.

[1193] Like, I would love to see yourself.

[1194] That was John's intent for sure.

[1195] On the first conversation we had about it, he very specifically said that to me. I want this to be out on a platform that somebody could get in rural South that is maybe closeted and is trying to keep this thing quiet or if not is estranged from the community bully, whatever and can put that on and go, fuck yeah, that's me. I see me, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1196] And I'm going to kill this bastard who's so likable 70 minutes ago.

[1197] Oh, this is what I was going to say.

[1198] You're not that old.

[1199] You know, there's still mentors out there for you.

[1200] Are there?

[1201] There are.

[1202] Dax could mentor you.

[1203] No, that would not be inappropriate.

[1204] This doesn't happen all that often.

[1205] and this is a terribly shameless name drop.

[1206] Oh, good.

[1207] But I was at a party not too long ago, and Al Pacino was there.

[1208] And he was sitting next to someone that I know that I had worked with.

[1209] And she stood up and she said, sit down and talk to Al. That was great.

[1210] First off, he's also someone that comes from a lot of theater.

[1211] I don't think he was looking at it as any sort of a mentor thing, and it's not like it was presented in that way.

[1212] But for me, was so enamored by him as a kid.

[1213] And Indian Wants the Bronx was the first monologue that I auditioned for to try to get into my acting school and being in New York in the 70s and working in the theater in New York in the 70s, he was such an icon to me in terms of people who were working on the stage doing great shit and then also in these amazing Panic Neal Park of Sarapico.

[1214] Two best movies ever made.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] To get that little hang, you mentioned there are still mentors around.

[1217] he would be the only one that pops into my head.

[1218] Instinct, maybe still.

[1219] And him.

[1220] All right, you're going to hate this part, but here it comes.

[1221] I think now I haven't talked to you for six hours.

[1222] I really got a pity.

[1223] Oh, we keep doing this to people.

[1224] Don't worry.

[1225] I'm landing the plane right now.

[1226] I think it's a little hard for you to accept who you actually are.

[1227] I think the footloose thing's like a little clue of that.

[1228] Like, you were a fucking rock star heartthrop.

[1229] You just were.

[1230] You could have rolled with it, as you now know.

[1231] Right.

[1232] I don't think you know so many people sit down.

[1233] next to you in their next alpuccino i don't think that has sunk into you and i'm telling you i'm looking you in the eyes and i'm telling you i would have cut off a foot to be you my brother and oh my god that was an accidental one and now i regret it was on accident don't do don't do don't been working so hard i'm limping so hard these shoes don't sit i'm playing it cool because i'm a professional, but I can't believe I'm sitting here talking to you.

[1234] It is mind blowing to me. I mean, I just worshipped you as a kid.

[1235] I wanted to be you.

[1236] I think the reason you don't mentor is you don't recognize that so many people would love to know how you be Kevin Bacon and how you navigate all this and how you go through 10 transitions and how you stay flexible and how you stay focused and how you stay hungry.

[1237] You have all that to give.

[1238] I'm just as excited to sit next to you as I would be Al Pacino sincerely from the bottom of my heart.

[1239] Oh, that's very nice.

[1240] Let's put some post that's on the mirror.

[1241] You've got to get out in here.

[1242] He's very entertaining.

[1243] Does this kid have any idea what's going on?

[1244] That would be the whole episode with him just doing it back.

[1245] I got four dead bodies on Venice Boulevard, Diane.

[1246] I don't care if the goddamn chicken's cold.

[1247] My God.

[1248] Wait, I'll just let him pee.

[1249] You got to pee.

[1250] Now I'm really nervous.

[1251] I know.

[1252] Just go.

[1253] Just fucking let a rip.

[1254] Weird are things that happened on that past?

[1255] Yeah, you be the first.

[1256] I appreciate that though because what is obviously.

[1257] is your ego is so healthy you have such a suspiciously so it's beautiful and wonderful no I think it has to do with your longevity it's like I'm on mushrooms no but I think that's why he can't see that and I think that's a beautiful thing but you can let a little of it in you can let it well there's a reality it's not even ego there's just a fucking reality I'm bold over to sit with you I'm now going to let you pee I hope everyone sees they slash them which is on peacock it's out right now go right now watch they slash them also watch city on the hill season three and let's keep that going for kevin let's let them renegotiate okay a couple of times sure let's do it Kevin there's been a fucking riot for me thank you guys it's really fun and I'm a big fan of the show as I told you earlier before you were rolling or maybe you were rolling and keep up the good work it really is fun it's great listening to all right Thank you.

[1258] We'll be on the phone in New York Times.

[1259] Expect a call short of.

[1260] Yeah, what the hell?

[1261] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1262] Okay, so you?

[1263] I have a new bird.

[1264] You have a new bird tattoo.

[1265] It's awesome.

[1266] Oh, my God.

[1267] Thank you.

[1268] I'm so glad you like it.

[1269] It's really cool.

[1270] Obviously, you know, it's going to look better.

[1271] It's covered in plastic and gooey right now.

[1272] Like when I wash it, it'll be sharper.

[1273] I really like it.

[1274] You are almost out of full sleeve, my friend.

[1275] Yeah, we're almost there.

[1276] You know, so what will happen next is she has to tie this.

[1277] It's like, what's that tree float in the middle of nowhere?

[1278] So this will become a cliff and then there'll be a waterfall.

[1279] So now that there's trees up on a cliff and these birds are flying like in another zone.

[1280] Are you going to do the spider web on the elbow?

[1281] Fuck, yeah, of course I will.

[1282] For Halloween.

[1283] Tommy Lee style.

[1284] Are you, uh...

[1285] Joining a motorcycle club?

[1286] No, but you do look scarier.

[1287] Oh, okay.

[1288] In a good way.

[1289] Oh, okay.

[1290] But smiley still?

[1291] Yeah.

[1292] But you look cool.

[1293] It looks cool.

[1294] Oh, thank you.

[1295] It's enormous.

[1296] Longest tattoo ever had, six and a half hours straight.

[1297] Oh, my God.

[1298] And Ruby crushed it.

[1299] She really, really crushed it.

[1300] Oh, yeah, that's what I was going to ask.

[1301] Is it the same woman?

[1302] It is.

[1303] And then Charlie popped in.

[1304] Okay.

[1305] Out of nowhere, like maybe hour three.

[1306] Okay.

[1307] Which was such a nice breakup of time.

[1308] Yeah, you got to chitch out.

[1309] Because I can't be on my phone either.

[1310] I don't have one of these pop sticks things that everyone has.

[1311] Sure.

[1312] Popits?

[1313] Popouts?

[1314] Pop outs.

[1315] Pop outs.

[1316] So I can't really handle my phone with one hand.

[1317] So I really was all of my phone for six and a half hours as well.

[1318] So I'm just sitting there for six and a half hours.

[1319] You know, we're chit -chety.

[1320] We're going to get in some good chit -chat.

[1321] But then all of a sudden, Charlie, perfect time Charlie pops in.

[1322] That's fun.

[1323] And what's great, you'll love this.

[1324] It's so textbook Charlie.

[1325] When I got there at 12, Ruby said, oh good, Charlie left his sunglasses here yesterday.

[1326] Will you grab them?

[1327] I said, of course, I'll see Charlie this weekend for qualifying.

[1328] Yeah.

[1329] And something in my head said, there's no way Charlie can handle not being what his sunglasses.

[1330] Well, sure enough, he just stopped in.

[1331] And then right when he walked in, I go, you hear for your sunglasses?

[1332] And he goes, yeah.

[1333] Mind you, this tattoo bar is in Culver City.

[1334] It's not like it's close to his house or his work.

[1335] Oh, my God.

[1336] And I said, you OCD motherfucker.

[1337] And then he smiled so big, he goes, yeah, just couldn't.

[1338] I needed to stop thinking about him.

[1339] I had to just come get him to stop.

[1340] And I was like, I love you.

[1341] What a brain.

[1342] I love it.

[1343] There's just like nothing.

[1344] I will drive to Culver City.

[1345] for to pick up sunglasses that I would have grabbed and given to him within the next couple days but that's that's the power of his brain he knew you were going to be there though or was it total happenstack i think ruby said i'll send your sunglasses home with that i see not not gonna not good enough so he got a tattoo the day before he had been there the day before what did he see ruby lives in florida exactly and so when she's in town generally we go see her snag some time we go get some time i guess she's our witch what's going Don't.

[1346] Did you have a serious exercise?

[1347] Because you're in spandex pants, which you never wear.

[1348] I'm in workout clothes.

[1349] Workout clothes.

[1350] That's what we call them.

[1351] Uh -huh.

[1352] Don't need to say the word spandex.

[1353] What were you doing in your workout outfit?

[1354] Okay.

[1355] So I went on a walk with Cali.

[1356] Okay.

[1357] Like a hike or a walk?

[1358] A walk.

[1359] We walked to, uh, Maru.

[1360] Not Maru.

[1361] Another coffee shop.

[1362] Uh -oh.

[1363] Competing coffee shop?

[1364] It's just a further walk.

[1365] So it was, the purpose was the walk.

[1366] Yeah, the wog.

[1367] What was it?

[1368] A Broome Street General.

[1369] Or is that all the way in Silver Lake or something?

[1370] Not all the way, but it's closer.

[1371] You know, I don't know about one thing over there.

[1372] I just discovered Mix the other day.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] Only because I searched salad bar near me. Like, I was really looking for a Bob's Big Boy or a sizzler.

[1375] Yeah.

[1376] And I ended up at a kind of cool place on accident.

[1377] When you told me that, I then, yesterday or two days ago, I tried to look for you for the salad bar you're looking for.

[1378] Oh.

[1379] I didn't find it.

[1380] No. Yeah, I don't know that they exist so much anymore.

[1381] I mean, Whole Foods has a salad bar, but that's not what we want.

[1382] It's not what we want.

[1383] Yeah.

[1384] We want to sit down and eat it and then we go, oh, that kind of cheese was extra good.

[1385] My next plate, I'm going to add more.

[1386] Exactly.

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] I always think these things would be popular restaurants.

[1389] Like, remember family style?

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] Because I had eaten at Kimmel's Place, and I was like, well, that's the answer.

[1392] And then I also think salad bar, but maybe no one wants to say.

[1393] I feel like if everyone wanted a salad bar, they'd be everywhere.

[1394] And there's none.

[1395] Well, family style, as I told you.

[1396] Is pretty much happening at every restaurant these days.

[1397] Oh, okay.

[1398] Um, hip restaurants.

[1399] Oh, okay.

[1400] It's shared plates.

[1401] We're young people.

[1402] We're the youth.

[1403] But salad bars few and far between.

[1404] Maybe it's too cumbersome.

[1405] Like we're in an area with where square footage is at a premium.

[1406] You can't dedicate like 200 square feet to this, you know, big boy style salad bar.

[1407] You know what I think is?

[1408] I think people don't think it's hygienic.

[1409] Oh.

[1410] A lot of people are.

[1411] really disgusted by the idea of a salad bar.

[1412] Oh, boy.

[1413] I'm not, but some people are.

[1414] Ma and Sheila did poison that one salad bar up in the Dals, Oregon.

[1415] She ruined it.

[1416] Yeah, she might have permanently tainted.

[1417] Do you think they're unsanitary?

[1418] I just don't want to think about it that much because I do like them.

[1419] Oh, okay, great.

[1420] So do you have a favorite when you go to Georgia back home?

[1421] No, I haven't had a salad bar in a long time.

[1422] And we still have a big boy's here in L .A. We have Bob's big boy in Burbank, but that's the only big boy I've ever been to that doesn't have a salad bar.

[1423] They still have the delicious Big Boy salad with the signature proprietary Big Boy Blue Cheese, which is great.

[1424] But that's what I'm really looking for is a Michigan Big Boys salad bar.

[1425] A bunch of ice under all the things.

[1426] Bowls are kind of sliding willy -nilly when you put the tongs in there.

[1427] Do you know what I'm saying?

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] You know, so when we went to Michigan three years ago?

[1430] Yeah, three summers ago maybe.

[1431] We went to Big Boys.

[1432] That was a bad one.

[1433] Okay, I was going to ask you.

[1434] No, it was an embarrassment.

[1435] That was really a bad.

[1436] That was my question.

[1437] Are you so, like, is your memory so overwhelming that you couldn't see that that one wasn't very good?

[1438] That one was terrible and it was an embarrassment.

[1439] The lettuce was rotting.

[1440] The lettuce was brown and wilted and not crispy despite it being iceberg.

[1441] Oh, you won't do this.

[1442] But as an option for you, there is a great big boys off the 10.

[1443] Okay.

[1444] On your way to Palm Springs And Cali Mesa is just past Riverside So you're still about a half hour away from Palm Springs There's a beautiful newer big boys And it has a great salad bar If you get there on the weekend It has the breakfast bar as well A hot bar and a cold bar This is good to know You know what was great one time I was in there by myself I was like on my way to the sand dunes And I stopped in for a salad bar And the waitress said to me You know we had a celebrity in here a week ago I kind of felt like I knew what was coming.

[1445] Oh.

[1446] And it was Kurt Russell.

[1447] And I was like, that makes perfect sense.

[1448] Kurt Russell had been at the same big boys a week before.

[1449] Okay.

[1450] And I'm like, that's exactly who I would think would be there.

[1451] Interesting.

[1452] And you know him.

[1453] I know him.

[1454] Yeah, yeah.

[1455] I'm telling you it was in my mind before she said it.

[1456] And you didn't say what you always say, which is, can I guess?

[1457] Right.

[1458] And that would have been a great time for you to have guessed.

[1459] I did do that at a strip club, as you remember, in Oklahoma.

[1460] And I was right.

[1461] No. You think you've told me all these stories you have not told me. I have.

[1462] Well, I'll tell it to you again.

[1463] Well, I'll be outing him.

[1464] Okay.

[1465] Or whatever.

[1466] Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep his name.

[1467] Sure.

[1468] We'll beep.

[1469] I was driving to go do let's go to prison.

[1470] I was driving by myself.

[1471] I decided I want to drive to that.

[1472] It was in Illinois.

[1473] Okay.

[1474] And I had never taken this one route through America.

[1475] So I went.

[1476] I found myself in Oklahoma.

[1477] No, Oklahoma City.

[1478] Okay.

[1479] Bombing.

[1480] I had, well.

[1481] Just wanted to remind us.

[1482] It's very nice if you to remind everyone.

[1483] And I always contradict myself.

[1484] I don't like strip clubs.

[1485] I really don't.

[1486] But that's not to say I haven't been to them a dozen times.

[1487] I have.

[1488] You've tried them all out just to make sure you don't like them.

[1489] What happens, I had a spell when I was doing an employee of the month because I was in New Mexico.

[1490] We were shooting nights.

[1491] There was nothing to do on the weekend to keep that schedule.

[1492] Yeah.

[1493] And so I went while I was there, whatever, I've been a handful of times.

[1494] I don't like it.

[1495] Okay.

[1496] With all that said, I'm in Oklahoma City.

[1497] Yes.

[1498] I don't know.

[1499] what to do.

[1500] I'm in my hotel.

[1501] I'm like, I want to do something.

[1502] There's just a strip club right next door.

[1503] I'm going to go in there.

[1504] I go in there.

[1505] Gail starts telling me that they've had one other celebrity come in there.

[1506] And I swear to God, I said, was it?

[1507] And she almost had a heart attack.

[1508] Wow.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] I just had a hunch.

[1511] And he loves strip clubs.

[1512] Christ.

[1513] Yeah.

[1514] That's, he had a borderline addiction.

[1515] It sounds like.

[1516] Okay.

[1517] He has an addiction.

[1518] But anyways, I said And it was right.

[1519] And it felt incredible.

[1520] And her head almost spun.

[1521] Like, how could I guess that out of all the different, quote, celebrities that are on the planet?

[1522] It's really fun to guess correctly.

[1523] This happened is ding, ding, ding.

[1524] My favorite podcast, nobody's listening, right?

[1525] Also, shout out to all these amazing arm cherries who are also now listening to that show and writing reviews for them.

[1526] And it's so wonderful because I listen like first thing and I get to hear some of them.

[1527] and often it's like I heard about you from armchair expert and makes me so happy and one of you is from Japan.

[1528] Oh my God.

[1529] Lives in Japan.

[1530] I'm embarrassed.

[1531] I don't know.

[1532] Can I eat you all?

[1533] That's Japanese, yeah.

[1534] I know such a little bit of every language and I'm so ill -prepared for Japan.

[1535] I met Nate and Penae yesterday for lunch at Katsuyu.

[1536] We haven't been in probably three years.

[1537] Panay and I are there first.

[1538] We walk in.

[1539] We're the only people there.

[1540] It's 11 .30.

[1541] I say to the whole staff, Good morning.

[1542] How's it going?

[1543] You know, I know I'm supposed to yell something else.

[1544] We sit down.

[1545] 10 minutes later, I hear someone's in there.

[1546] Kenichua, whoa, everyone's yelling.

[1547] Of course, Nate.

[1548] Nate knows like 20 things in Japanese.

[1549] The place is on fire.

[1550] Everyone's in the best mood.

[1551] And I'm like, well, that's textbook Nate talk right there.

[1552] He knows Japanese?

[1553] Enough to get everyone party pumped up.

[1554] Wow.

[1555] I was so.

[1556] jealous.

[1557] And now it just came up again.

[1558] I want to say, I got nothing to say in Japanese.

[1559] It's okay.

[1560] You don't have, I, you have.

[1561] No more agato, Mr. Aragato.

[1562] See, this is why you don't need to push it because I'm just trying to remember the things I might know.

[1563] I know.

[1564] And I think that's a slippery slow.

[1565] It is.

[1566] Okay.

[1567] So anyway, I was very, very excited to hear that.

[1568] That made me feel so happy.

[1569] We have a listener in Japan.

[1570] That's amazing.

[1571] And now, now Elizabeth and Andy also have a listener in Japan, which also makes me happy.

[1572] Anyway, that podcast I was listening to, she's telling a story.

[1573] Elizabeth is telling a story about, she ran into somebody on a hike.

[1574] Not you.

[1575] Separate story.

[1576] There's a different story now.

[1577] Separate story.

[1578] Yes.

[1579] Very reminiscent.

[1580] She's on a hike with her brother, and Andy's brother.

[1581] Okay.

[1582] And they run into someone who Elizabeth was like, I used to know him a long time ago, like 15 years ago at UCB.

[1583] And then she's like, I don't want to.

[1584] say his name, but he's recognizable.

[1585] Okay.

[1586] And Andy's brother had recognized him and whatever.

[1587] She was talking about this conversation, basically, like, he was so nice.

[1588] And I, of course, I'm like, who is it?

[1589] Ben Schwartz.

[1590] He was my second guess, but I had a guess before.

[1591] Okay.

[1592] It's like not fair for me to say who it is because she specifically didn't say who it is.

[1593] Right.

[1594] But I texted her and I said, is it?

[1595] And she said, yes, how did you know that?

[1596] wonderful how wonderful it's the best feeling right it's a really good feeling anyway it's like getting the daily double in jeopardy or something i never got i'm bad at jeopardy as you'll hear on tomorrow's flightless bird but i'm just bad at game shows right in general or like you know i'm bad at guessing yes remember when i tried to practice well i wanted to learn to practice you I remember that you wanted to learn to practice.

[1597] Yeah, yeah.

[1598] Okay.

[1599] Now that we talked about fun stuff, I have something upsetting to talk about.

[1600] Uh -oh.

[1601] Okay, we're shifting gears.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] So I walked with Callie.

[1604] This is about the outfit.

[1605] Back to the outfit?

[1606] Ish.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] Back to the outfit.

[1609] I walked with Callie.

[1610] And then I walked here.

[1611] Okay.

[1612] And I haven't walked here in a while because it's been so hot.

[1613] That's right.

[1614] Too hot.

[1615] But I was on a roll, you know, so it's like, I'm going to keep it going.

[1616] I'm going to walk to work today.

[1617] I'm walking, I'm walking.

[1618] I'm walking some more.

[1619] I'm at a, I'm at a crosswalk.

[1620] And I feel like someone touch across my back.

[1621] Oh, like with one finger.

[1622] You're showing one finger in the air.

[1623] A graze with one finger.

[1624] It's like, oh, someone's here who I know.

[1625] I turn around and it is definitely a mentally ill, unhoused person.

[1626] A homeless person, individual.

[1627] And I was so freaked out.

[1628] Male or female?

[1629] Male.

[1630] Okay.

[1631] Big or small?

[1632] Medium build.

[1633] Okay.

[1634] Medium build.

[1635] Not well.

[1636] Not well.

[1637] And then when you looked at him, did he say anything?

[1638] He just stare.

[1639] He like, yeah.

[1640] Okay.

[1641] Like from a horror movie.

[1642] Okay.

[1643] And then I immediately like averted my gaze and like looked for somebody else around.

[1644] Like is there anyone else here who could potentially help me?

[1645] Was this at a crosswalk?

[1646] Were you waiting for a light to turn green?

[1647] Yes.

[1648] Then he kept walking, so it was fine.

[1649] But it was really unsettling.

[1650] Yeah, gentle caress is not.

[1651] We can't be doing that.

[1652] It was not.

[1653] I didn't like it.

[1654] I felt really violated.

[1655] Okay.

[1656] What would you have wanted me to do if I were there?

[1657] Buy him lunch.

[1658] Give him some money.

[1659] No, nothing, I guess.

[1660] I mean, like, what could we do?

[1661] There's nothing to do.

[1662] He was mentally ill. you know, I don't ever share of the unhoused.

[1663] Yeah.

[1664] Because so many of them mentally are beyond any kind of adjustment to their behavior.

[1665] It would be so pointless.

[1666] It'd be pointless.

[1667] Well, here's it.

[1668] If he continued.

[1669] I would fight one if I was attacked.

[1670] Don't get me wrong.

[1671] Right.

[1672] So I guess that's if he like kept touching, then maybe I'd want someone to intervene.

[1673] Yeah, pulled on his pants and spank him.

[1674] His pants were probably already down.

[1675] They weren't surprising.

[1676] but I'm sure minutes later they were down.

[1677] And I was like, I can't tell you how many nude adults my children have seen in Los Angeles six years.

[1678] You're just constantly at a light and you're like, okay, I see that person's entire butt.

[1679] I know.

[1680] If they turn around, am I going to see penis or vagina or they got it hiked up a little bit?

[1681] Oh, nope, it's all out on display.

[1682] I know.

[1683] And you always see titties.

[1684] Titties are pulled out from underneath the shirt.

[1685] They're just on full display.

[1686] I saw something really disturbing the other day.

[1687] I walked by a woman who, I don't know if she was unhoused, to be fair.

[1688] Sure.

[1689] But she was on meth, like 100 % no question.

[1690] And she was pregnant.

[1691] Ooh, yeah, that's a bummer.

[1692] It was so, it's like, a lot.

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] There's a lot going on in L .A. Yeah.

[1695] Now, that could bring me to probably, way too long of a story.

[1696] Tell me. So we ended up having Tuesday off.

[1697] Yeah.

[1698] The kids had Tuesday off.

[1699] Oh.

[1700] I said, kids, big surprise.

[1701] We're going to do something.

[1702] Not going to tell you what it is.

[1703] Oh, pop outs.

[1704] Lincoln immediately didn't like the idea of not knowing what we were going to do.

[1705] Sure.

[1706] It's not for her.

[1707] No. She likes to know what that's going on.

[1708] Which, by the way, was kind of the point of the exercise.

[1709] Oh, really?

[1710] I was hoping that she could have an experience where she didn't pick or plan or was in control and yet had a great time despite it.

[1711] That was the ostensible goal.

[1712] Got it.

[1713] Everyone gets her shoes on.

[1714] We're walking into the driveway.

[1715] Already, I don't want to go hiking.

[1716] No, it's not hiking.

[1717] Don't worry.

[1718] Okay.

[1719] Well, what is it?

[1720] I'm not going to tell you.

[1721] Walk out of the driveway.

[1722] Now we've walked past the cars.

[1723] So now it's clear to them.

[1724] We're not driving.

[1725] Why aren't we driving?

[1726] Oh.

[1727] We're walking.

[1728] Just everyone relax.

[1729] We're just walking.

[1730] Okay.

[1731] Get about halfway down the street.

[1732] We're now only 400 feet from the house and the show's over.

[1733] Lincoln's like, I don't want to do this.

[1734] Where are we going?

[1735] What is this all about?

[1736] She's anxious.

[1737] She's very anxious.

[1738] And I make one half -hearted attempt to get her to buy in to the surprise.

[1739] And then I surrender.

[1740] I go, okay.

[1741] Do you want to know exactly what we're doing?

[1742] Yes.

[1743] I go, okay, I'll tell you.

[1744] Please don't tell Delta.

[1745] This is an aside.

[1746] We're going to walk to the subway.

[1747] We're going to get on the subway.

[1748] We're going to go downtown.

[1749] We're going to walk around downtown.

[1750] We're going to see all the fun things downtown.

[1751] We're going to eat at a favorite restaurant of mine.

[1752] And then we're going to ride the subway back.

[1753] She's not pumped on that.

[1754] It's too hot to walk there.

[1755] I don't want to ride a subway.

[1756] I don't know, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[1757] Okay.

[1758] But we get her to go.

[1759] And we get on the subway.

[1760] I did half of my therapy session just now is about this topic.

[1761] So I got to try to give you the Reader's Digest.

[1762] Okay.

[1763] Get on the subway.

[1764] It's the subway.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] You know, so there's interesting characters.

[1767] Yeah.

[1768] There's all kinds of different characters.

[1769] There's also super nice people.

[1770] We start talking to this nurse who works at Cedar Cyanite.

[1771] She takes two -hour commute from like Gardini or something crazy.

[1772] She likes to do because they give her 50 bucks a week if she rides the subway.

[1773] Oh, wow.

[1774] She has a car.

[1775] she digs it awesome who gives her 50 bucks the hospital yeah I think instead of driving if you oh it's an incentive wow pretty cool okay cool she liked it she listens to podcasts not ours she never heard of us yeah yeah again Lincoln's not loving it she's already in a bad mood and so here's where all the all my issues come in now I get convinced myself like well she's now got a story that this sucks and no matter what happens it's gonna suck she's only looking for stuff she doesn't like right and I'm getting frustrated by that but also trying to just accept that and surrender and blah, blah, blah.

[1776] We get down to downtown LA and we get off at Pershing Square.

[1777] Now, when you exit the subway at Pershing Square, it's all right there.

[1778] Like, you're in the thick of it, right?

[1779] How long is the ride?

[1780] Sorry, I'm just curious.

[1781] No problem.

[1782] It's like a 15 -minute ride.

[1783] Okay.

[1784] Get off and now there's a lot of activity, you know?

[1785] Yeah.

[1786] We're immediately in the jewelry district.

[1787] That's kind of cool.

[1788] We're looking at the windows and all the diamond stuff.

[1789] And now she wants nothing to do with this.

[1790] I don't want to do this.

[1791] I hate this.

[1792] So I have an aside with.

[1793] Do you want me to have Carly come pick you up?

[1794] Oh, wow.

[1795] You can do that.

[1796] But we're going to continue on this, but I can't have Carly come pick you up if you want.

[1797] This is one of these life decisions.

[1798] If you quit now and you go home, next time we go downtown, we probably aren't going to invite you because we know you don't like this.

[1799] So just make the decision knowing that it's going to inform how you get included or not into something like it.

[1800] Interesting.

[1801] It's kind of like the conversation you had with me about trumes.

[1802] About trims.

[1803] You're on this trip.

[1804] You can like it or not?

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] So she soldiers on.

[1807] They want to stop at a fruit stand.

[1808] Their attitude's improved.

[1809] We make it to Bodega Louie.

[1810] Oh, I love it.

[1811] It's the greatest.

[1812] An amazing, an amazing desserts display.

[1813] Macaroons, everything.

[1814] Marble everywhere.

[1815] It's so great.

[1816] Sit down, great mill.

[1817] Well, now the girls are in a great mood.

[1818] Why?

[1819] Because we're with all the other rich people again.

[1820] Oh, wow.

[1821] And it's air condition and it's nice.

[1822] And it's pretty in there.

[1823] It's colorful.

[1824] No one in there has got their tities out.

[1825] They feel safe in there.

[1826] Which is his own line of triggering for me. It's like, oh, see, they're already infected.

[1827] Like, they're super comfortable here because it costs a lot of money to be here.

[1828] Yeah, it's, this is tricky.

[1829] So then lunch is concluding delicious lunch.

[1830] And Ling's like, I saw a park by the fruit stand.

[1831] I want to go play in the park.

[1832] I go, okay, but that's right next to the subway.

[1833] I want to take it to L .A. live.

[1834] It's so fun to look around at all this.

[1835] You can see the two stadiums that we have down there.

[1836] No. I don't want to go anywhere.

[1837] Another round of battling.

[1838] What if I look up a playground on the way to LA Live?

[1839] Whatever.

[1840] Finally, I surrender.

[1841] I'm literally saying the surrounding program I have like.

[1842] Yeah.

[1843] I can't remember the shirmy.

[1844] Grant me the surrounding except the things I cannot change.

[1845] The courage to change the things I can in the wisdom of no difference.

[1846] So I'm like, is this one of the times I push her, push her?

[1847] Or do I ruin every, you know.

[1848] I don't want her to be scared, scared.

[1849] Yeah.

[1850] Anywho, we make it back to this playground.

[1851] They play for a minute.

[1852] I'm really lamenting like this didn't go at all as I hoped and I don't really know why I feel so it's so complicated my feelings on this I'm disappointed I guess in Lincoln a little bit I'm questioning myself why do you even need to pass this on to her I think I want her to be someone who can go anywhere in the world and feel confident oh interesting I want her to feel aware but comfortable yeah I want the whole world to be open up to her and how much of that is just my shit and maybe she's a different person maybe she don't want the whole world to open it it It's all complicated, right?

[1853] I'm really wrestling with all these things.

[1854] So then we get back on the subway.

[1855] It's going to be seven minutes before the train arrives.

[1856] And now I clock a guy coming along.

[1857] And he is walking right on the edge of the platform, right?

[1858] And of course, Lincoln sees him right away too.

[1859] So now we're both clocking this guy.

[1860] And I pretty quickly realize, oh, this guy's hustle is he looks into the down onto the tracks and people who have dropped things who, of course, are not going to jump onto active tracks to get it.

[1861] That's his hustle.

[1862] He goes and gets shit.

[1863] So sure enough, now he jumps down on the tracks.

[1864] This is where you and I would differ to.

[1865] Yeah.

[1866] So now the guy's down on the tracks, he's jumped off the platform.

[1867] I, if I'm being just dead honest, I am now aroused.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] I'm entertained.

[1870] I'm excited.

[1871] Well, this is new.

[1872] Where is this going to end?

[1873] You know, is there going to be a close call?

[1874] I don't think at it at all that the guy's going to get hit by a subway, but certainly this is an eventful thing.

[1875] Maybe there'll be a close call.

[1876] Does a shoelace get stuck?

[1877] What's going to happen?

[1878] Oh, my God.

[1879] Oh, my God.

[1880] Something novels happening in front of us.

[1881] Do you, okay, and I have a quick question.

[1882] Is it okay if I ask questions?

[1883] Please.

[1884] Okay.

[1885] Why do you think he's not going to get hit by the subway?

[1886] Because he has seven minutes before the train comes.

[1887] But like, he's crazy enough to do that.

[1888] He wasn't insane.

[1889] Let me add that.

[1890] He wasn't like, he wasn't mentally ill. He didn't, no, he wasn't like, you know when you see people collecting cans, you're like, oh, I get it, they're doing that thing.

[1891] But they're like, that's their thing.

[1892] They're making money somehow.

[1893] That's panhandling.

[1894] It's probably not the person who touched me today.

[1895] Correct.

[1896] Yeah.

[1897] So this guy wasn't like, this guy was totally rational.

[1898] He just wasn't afraid to jump on the tracks.

[1899] I also was thinking like there's a lot of electricity down there.

[1900] There's so many things that can go wrong.

[1901] Absolutely.

[1902] Things below us now at this point.

[1903] Oh, my God.

[1904] Lincoln doesn't like it at all, right?

[1905] She does not like it.

[1906] And now I've got to curb my own enthusiasm.

[1907] What is Kristen?

[1908] She's always in the middle, right?

[1909] Does she notice?

[1910] Yeah.

[1911] She's just like, oh, I mean, she would live in New York for years.

[1912] I'm sure she's just been in a gnarly subway of a trillion times and seen presumably everything.

[1913] So she's probably just desensitized to it.

[1914] Yeah.

[1915] But now she's talking Lincoln, like, it's okay.

[1916] He'll be okay.

[1917] Everything's going to be okay.

[1918] Oh, let me back up.

[1919] I also had the thought, how much of my ego right now is involved in this?

[1920] Is there any part of me that is frustrated that she doesn't feel incredibly safe just because I'm next to her?

[1921] That's smart.

[1922] And I even said to her.

[1923] I'm like, you know, baby, yes, there's a lot of weirdos down here, but you're with me. Yeah.

[1924] And a grizzly bear can come around the corner.

[1925] No one's earning you if I'm here.

[1926] So maybe some part of my ego is like, well, she should feel dead safe because I'm by her side.

[1927] I see.

[1928] So I'm just checking that.

[1929] I'm like, oh, I wonder if any of that's going on.

[1930] Yeah.

[1931] Anyways, we get back.

[1932] We get home.

[1933] Bob's your uncle.

[1934] Yeah.

[1935] Things over.

[1936] It's fine.

[1937] Now, I'm getting the six and a half hour tattoo.

[1938] Ruby and her apprentice, Zaya and I are all talking about trauma.

[1939] we've all they had some incredible stories these two yeah and um it made me think of being in downtown l -a i said you know part of me wanted to say to my daughter like you don't even know what scary is like you don't even this isn't scary part of me wanted to be like do you know what i've seen by nine this isn't even scary okay right in my frustration sure like we're not even in a dangerous situation.

[1940] Probably more you go, who knows?

[1941] Ruby says, you know, you said your dream is that you would like give your kids a childhood that didn't have any of the stuff you had.

[1942] Yeah.

[1943] And the result of that is when she sees chaos and danger, it makes her very uncomfortable.

[1944] And she doesn't like it.

[1945] Yeah.

[1946] And you know what?

[1947] She's not going to like it when she meets a boy that is chaotic and dangerous.

[1948] You got what you wanted.

[1949] It's not for her.

[1950] Yeah.

[1951] And I was like, oh my God.

[1952] I could have started crying.

[1953] I was like, oh my God, that is the truth.

[1954] Like I've been trying to give them a childhood that they could just be themselves without any defense mechanisms.

[1955] Yet I also want them to be very worldly and fearless.

[1956] And I have to recognize that like to get the one thing I really wanted most, I might not get the other thing.

[1957] And I might have to be completely at peace with that.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] And maybe it's a part of me saying both goodbye to a version of myself that I don't need anymore.

[1960] And further remembering, she's not me. Yeah.

[1961] And looking at the whole picture, right?

[1962] Like, Lincoln is not a scared girl.

[1963] Like, she does all kinds of things that a lot of kids would be scared to do.

[1964] Right.

[1965] She's not arrested with fear.

[1966] Yeah.

[1967] You don't need to be worried about the fact like, she, like, she won't do anything.

[1968] That's true.

[1969] She won't.

[1970] She does tons of stuff.

[1971] Yeah.

[1972] She doesn't want to mix elbows with.

[1973] Yeah.

[1974] And, like, who does?

[1975] You know, like who, I mean, some people do, but me, I like it.

[1976] You do, but her not is actually a, it's a healthy thing.

[1977] Yes, that's, I think, what Ruby gave me the perspective of, of like, this is the result of her not having seen a bunch of violence.

[1978] Yes.

[1979] And I will add, because she's a girl going to turn woman, things are more dangerous to her just inherently.

[1980] they will be in life, then they will be for you.

[1981] I mean, certain situations.

[1982] Well, that came up in therapy today.

[1983] And so, yeah, the outside chance of getting raped.

[1984] But I did, it did cross my mind.

[1985] I bet if you did a study, though, of a thousand people, 500 like me, 500 like you, and you had them mix through the shit, I'm going to attract weird shit, too.

[1986] Like, I'm walking around, like, I own this space in front of me. And that also invites another guy going like, no, no. No, you're in my neighborhood.

[1987] I own this space.

[1988] I probably get killed first because I'm walking around very entitled everywhere I go.

[1989] Right.

[1990] And no one punches a woman out in public to win glory or to show their dominance or their status.

[1991] They punch out other guys.

[1992] Fights on the street are between guys.

[1993] Right.

[1994] So weirdly in my, I guess my inflated sense of self -assuredness and confidence, I'm probably also likely to get shot or the shit kicked out of me. Yeah.

[1995] Because I'm inviting it in a weird way.

[1996] But that's why it can be scary.

[1997] To be around me. If you're in that mode, yes, because I know, I know you're not invincible.

[1998] Right, right.

[1999] And that a gun will kill you.

[2000] Yes.

[2001] I know that.

[2002] Right.

[2003] And so.

[2004] I haven't figured that out yet.

[2005] Right.

[2006] So I know you're also incredibly capable and incredibly strong and can beat a lot of people up.

[2007] And then I also know there are forces that you can't match.

[2008] So, yes, I do think that you're in danger too, but, I mean, there is no question.

[2009] I think that small women are much more vulnerable.

[2010] But, yeah, it just made me think of another thing of, like, the dude that comes out of a bar drunk and wants to prove his merit, you know, his metal, you're not on his radar.

[2011] Well, unless he wants to rape me. Or the gangbanger on the corner.

[2012] Like, you're going to get cat called for sure.

[2013] You're going to walk by.

[2014] They're going to say really bad things to you.

[2015] I walk by, it might be get the fuck out of here that you're not allowed here.

[2016] But it also might, there might be a, I want money, and that's an easy target because she can't fight back.

[2017] They also, I mean, some might, but they also, you're not in danger of being like raped.

[2018] I totally agree.

[2019] That's where most of this fear lies is being overpowered.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] There's lots of things that talk about surrender.

[2022] You have to just be like, I know my place on this planet.

[2023] There's only so much I can do.

[2024] Yes.

[2025] And that's a scary, that can be scary.

[2026] Yes.

[2027] It's like smart that she's looking and being like, that person I need to clock.

[2028] Yeah.

[2029] Yeah.

[2030] Now she's juggling like nine people she's trying to pay attention to and probably not fun.

[2031] Yeah, right.

[2032] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2033] Anyway, okay, this is for Kevin Bacon.

[2034] Kay Bake.

[2035] It was very fun.

[2036] I liked him a lot.

[2037] Very stoic man. Yeah, but also some playfulness.

[2038] Playful, but a self -assuredness.

[2039] Yes.

[2040] The calmness.

[2041] Coolness.

[2042] Cool.

[2043] Cool factor.

[2044] X factor.

[2045] X factor.

[2046] Easter egg.

[2047] Okay.

[2048] So the sauce on the table for fish and chips.

[2049] Oh, hold on a second.

[2050] Did it come to?

[2051] Well, I certainly haven't been thinking about it, but it's a different day.

[2052] Yeah, exactly.

[2053] And I have a different maybe awakenedness.

[2054] There's a malted topping that is on the table in a lot of English places.

[2055] Hmm.

[2056] But I'm worried.

[2057] You start with an age?

[2058] But I'm more.

[2059] Yeah.

[2060] There's two things.

[2061] I'm going to say.

[2062] But I don't know if what I'm about to say is what you're thinking.

[2063] Okay.

[2064] Okay.

[2065] Horse radish.

[2066] No. Okay.

[2067] Tartar sauce?

[2068] No. Okay.

[2069] That's why I was worried.

[2070] It wasn't.

[2071] Those are the things.

[2072] I did a lot of looking.

[2073] I could only find those two.

[2074] If you type in malted dipping sauce, Rob, fish and chips.

[2075] It's got the Union Jack on it.

[2076] This is a brand you're looking for?

[2077] Yeah.

[2078] Oh, it's a brand?

[2079] Oh, God.

[2080] I think It starts with an H. Fish and chips condiment.

[2081] Is that what you searched, probably?

[2082] Malted dipping sauce for fish and chips.

[2083] I don't remember.

[2084] It was a while ago, but I did look.

[2085] Malted vinegar.

[2086] Put in multed vinegar.

[2087] Someone's screaming at their dashboard right now.

[2088] They just slathered their fries in it.

[2089] They're like, how could you guys not know about?

[2090] TBD.

[2091] London Pub.

[2092] There you go.

[2093] London Pub malt vinegar.

[2094] Yeah.

[2095] Well, is that the name of it?

[2096] No. It's like a really popular brand of it.

[2097] You know, I used to go to O 'Brien's in Santa Monica to get drunk.

[2098] Uh -huh.

[2099] They had it on the tables there.

[2100] Hmm.

[2101] Yeah.

[2102] I mean, there's a Heinz malt and then a London pub malt vinegar.

[2103] Okay.

[2104] Forget it.

[2105] Okay.

[2106] Now, we talked for a second about cutting and then does your body release a little bit of its own opiate?

[2107] I think we have talked about this before, but we'll talk about it again.

[2108] My research says that your body has its own pain management, using hormones called endorphins.

[2109] Endorphids manage physical pain as well as emotional.

[2110] When someone cuts, endorphins are released and helps cover up the emotional and physical pain.

[2111] It will make you feel better for a few minutes and then you will crash again.

[2112] Eventually, your body will build a tolerance to it and you will have to cut deeper and more frequently and more cuts at one time to get the same effect as before.

[2113] Diminishing returns.

[2114] Yes.

[2115] Danger, danger, Will Robinson.

[2116] The name of the cute boy in Euphoria.

[2117] Oh, the singer.

[2118] Yeah, the singer.

[2119] His character name is Elliot.

[2120] Oh, okay.

[2121] And his real name is Dominic Fike.

[2122] Oh, we love to him.

[2123] So sexy, right?

[2124] Yes.

[2125] Would you love to sex him?

[2126] Um, how old is he?

[2127] Yeah, let's find that out before I answer.

[2128] You're very young.

[2129] Dominic Fike.

[2130] I am?

[2131] Yes.

[2132] Thank you.

[2133] I'm not.

[2134] Like you're 35, you could bang a 20 -year -old.

[2135] There's no shame there.

[2136] I'm geriatric pregnancy.

[2137] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am geriatric pregnancy.

[2138] Oh, and like a chart.

[2139] 86 you could Oh yeah that's fine Yes I would Yeah okay now you're born in 95 No that's my brother's age Younger than We're talking about Zach what was his name Elliot well Dominic Fike Dominic Fike That's a cool name It is Yeah I loved him Would you want him to sing to you Or you'd be nervous He'd look at you while he was singing Oh good question I think he'd be good at not looking at me You think so Yeah like when he sang to Rue He wasn't looking at her.

[2140] I think he was.

[2141] I loved it.

[2142] Whatever he did to Roodoo to me. Loved it.

[2143] Would it be wrong?

[2144] How old is Zendaya?

[2145] She's older, I believe.

[2146] What you're ruling on me having sex was Zandaya?

[2147] No. Too young.

[2148] 26.

[2149] That's young.

[2150] 21 years younger than me. That's rough.

[2151] Okay, so the verdict was you could definitely have sex with Dom and Zendaya's a no -no for me. That's ridiculous.

[2152] I mean, don't youth.

[2153] I'm going to let you.

[2154] You decide that.

[2155] She's of age, but...

[2156] I'm at a hotel.

[2157] I'm single.

[2158] Yeah.

[2159] Okay?

[2160] Yeah.

[2161] I'm at a hotel in London.

[2162] I'm having dinner by myself at the hotel.

[2163] I look at the table next to me at Zendaya.

[2164] We start chatting.

[2165] We have a really good time.

[2166] She moves over to my table.

[2167] Sparks are flying.

[2168] It's really funny.

[2169] She, this is key.

[2170] She would love to have sex with me. That's key.

[2171] That's hard to believe.

[2172] That's definitely key.

[2173] That's key and hard to.

[2174] to believe but in this scenario it's very consensual we're both in town for like two days and we're lonely and she's like do you want to come up to my room and i go up to a room and we make love okay and then that's that okay i think that's fine okay what do you think what's your verdict on that one i think if she wants to of course right but do you think ethically for me i should go like well this person's too young no i think it's if you are of age yeah but not 18 i can't Not 18.

[2175] No. There is a power imbalance that does have to be taken into account.

[2176] I mean, other than like the generic power imbalance of you being an older man, she has a ton of power in this country.

[2177] Zendaya.

[2178] Yeah.

[2179] In this world.

[2180] That's right.

[2181] She's a powerful woman.

[2182] I love her.

[2183] Me too.

[2184] Seemingly confident and knows herself.

[2185] But yes, she would have to make it very clear to you.

[2186] Like, I want to do this.

[2187] I've never been on a super old man. No, no, no. Can't wait to tell my buddies about this that I fucked, I bagged an old timer.

[2188] No, that's not what happened.

[2189] Okay.

[2190] But yeah, it's, it's nuance.

[2191] You can't just say 18, 26 is because another 26 year old, I might say I don't think that's ethically right.

[2192] I agree.

[2193] But I'm with you.

[2194] But I think for her it's okay.

[2195] I do, I do too if she is down.

[2196] If she initiates is good.

[2197] Yeah, actually that is good.

[2198] I don't want you to initiate And then for her to consent I want her to want it so bad Yes, that she's willing to see Listen to me cough in the morning And bend over like where my back hurts every morning Are you going to sleep over?

[2199] I'm just for the sake of a punchline to this story Yeah, so she's got to hear me Well, she's got to like listen to me fuzzing in my Are you going to fart in bed?

[2200] Well hold that second Before I even fart in bed, which is likely I'm going to futz around with my in my um dob kit for my intake breathy strips right so i can put it on my nose so i don't snore right i'm gonna try to be considerate okay so i'm gonna come back and i'm gonna have this weird thing she's never seen on one of her young lovers this big contraption on my nose and i have a handful of tissues which i do in every hotel room is i take there's not Kleenex next to the bed so i bring it from the bathroom over to the bedside table the night stand so that i can blow my nose six or seven times a night and then in the morning i'm gonna wake up and i'm gonna be coughing and clearing my throat and I'm going to get out of bed and it's going to be like slow moving and I'm going to bend down and crack my knees like I do and then squeeze my knees into my chest to loosen up my lower back.

[2201] You're going to brush your teeth and you're going to gag.

[2202] I'm going to gag.

[2203] Yeah.

[2204] The harsh light of daylight is coming.

[2205] Rob is making the worst face right now.

[2206] He's so disgusted.

[2207] Make sure you check your DMs after this episode.

[2208] Yeah, the harsh light of day is going to hit.

[2209] Yeah.

[2210] She's going to be like, this guy is old.

[2211] Yeah.

[2212] I think maybe you just leave after the lovemaking.

[2213] Okay.

[2214] That's the easiest.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] What if she's in my room?

[2217] Yeah, don't kick her out.

[2218] Can't do that.

[2219] Maybe you should ask her, do you want me to stay?

[2220] And it comes with all of this.

[2221] Right.

[2222] CPAP machine.

[2223] I don't have that yet.

[2224] And you can let her decide.

[2225] Right.

[2226] Anyway, okay.

[2227] Also, I got a journal in the morning.

[2228] Don't talk to me for the first 40 minutes away because if I don't journal, I'm going to fucking relapse and disappear into the London streets.

[2229] That's another thing.

[2230] You need to know.

[2231] Also, I call my children and be on FaceTime with them for a while.

[2232] No, in this scenario, you're single.

[2233] I'm single, yeah.

[2234] But I'm a little pathetic.

[2235] If I'm 46, I don't have kids and I'm...

[2236] No, don't say that.

[2237] Okay.

[2238] That is not true.

[2239] If you are 46 and you don't have kids, it doesn't mean you're pathetic.

[2240] If you are 46 and you don't have kids and you don't have an ex -husband, it's not pathetic.

[2241] I'm not special.

[2242] It's everyone.

[2243] I think if I at 46 as a male actor have never been married or been in a long relationship or have kids, it's pretty clear what I'm all about.

[2244] I don't think it has to.

[2245] I really don't.

[2246] I think having kids just to have kids or...

[2247] And the long -term partner thing.

[2248] We got to add that.

[2249] Okay.

[2250] Or having a long -term partner just because it's like something you're supposed to do doesn't mean anything to me. See, for you, it's just a complete apples and oranges.

[2251] For a guy who's been an actor for 25 years, who's been fucking and is still single at 46, I think there's a level of patheticness to it.

[2252] I really do.

[2253] You, who you're not single because you love running through men.

[2254] No. It's not pathetic at all.

[2255] But I think most 46 -year -old actors that have had my life still have never figured it out.

[2256] It's a little pathetic.

[2257] But maybe they don't want a long -term partner.

[2258] That's okay.

[2259] Having a relationship is not for everyone, I don't think.

[2260] I don't either.

[2261] I'm talking percentages here.

[2262] So I'm thinking, like, look, I know a handful of older actors that never, ever had a girlfriend.

[2263] The ones I've known have not been because they love doing the crossword puzzle by themselves in their house and their own space and all that stuff.

[2264] They're fucking a ton of women.

[2265] A ton of women think they had a relationship with the person.

[2266] and then they didn't.

[2267] I mean, look, that's all bad.

[2268] But that feels different to me because is it okay to decide that you don't want to be committed to someone for life?

[2269] But you can still have, of course you can still have sex and have fun.

[2270] Yeah, yeah.

[2271] Can you decide that for yourself?

[2272] I think yes.

[2273] I think men can too.

[2274] I mean, I definitely think women can.

[2275] Yeah.

[2276] But I think men can.

[2277] Like, I'd rather a man be.

[2278] honest about that for himself.

[2279] Right.

[2280] Then be like, I guess I'll do this thing I have to do and then not really be happy.

[2281] Well, I wouldn't want that for anyone.

[2282] Yeah.

[2283] Yeah.

[2284] I just think people are different.

[2285] I just think it would be a little bit of a red flag.

[2286] If you want to date a guy and you were having dinner with him and he was 47 and he had never had a girlfriend for more than a couple months and you wanted to date him, they've shown you the proof.

[2287] They have 47 years of showing you.

[2288] They're not going to be in a real relationship.

[2289] Hmm.

[2290] Hmm.

[2291] That's interesting.

[2292] I don't know.

[2293] I don't know either.

[2294] I can't wait because I offend people all the time on here.

[2295] I've never heard from 47 year old perpetually single dudes.

[2296] This could be fun.

[2297] That are famous.

[2298] That are famous.

[2299] I guess what I find interesting is you're excluding people who've been divorced.

[2300] No, I mean, I would include, oh, yes.

[2301] I think if you've been divorced, that's good.

[2302] Right.

[2303] But that, to me, is no different.

[2304] Well, what it tells me is like you were.

[2305] in a long -term relationship and you probably learn some things in the failure of that relationship that hopefully you're going to do differently in the next one you have some real practice with it you've cohabitated with somebody like if you want to be the first person a 47 year old dude ever lives with i just think that's dicey maybe yeah i don't know okay now it was a new york Times interview.

[2306] He did do a New York Times interview.

[2307] Even though he forgot.

[2308] Oh, 2017.

[2309] He did it.

[2310] And it's called Kevin Bacon knows you're gazing at him.

[2311] Mm. Okay.

[2312] Now, we talk about on accident versus by accident.

[2313] Yeah, he thought it was insane that we say, I can't even remember which one's wrong.

[2314] We say on accident.

[2315] That happened on accident.

[2316] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2317] Which makes no sense.

[2318] It's supposed to be by accident.

[2319] Correct.

[2320] It says on accident is a variation found almost exclusively inside the U .S. So it's common amongst us, but it's not technically correct.

[2321] Okay, I was looking at how many kids a year are put through some sort of conversion therapy.

[2322] Approximately 700 ,000 lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender adults have undergone conversion therapy at some point in their lives, including about 350 ,000 who received treatment as adolescence.

[2323] It also estimates 20 ,000 LGBT youth currently between the ages of 13 and 17 will receive conversion therapy from a licensed health care professional before they reach 18.

[2324] How many?

[2325] A 20 ,000.

[2326] Currently?

[2327] Oh my gosh.

[2328] And approximately 57 ,000 will be subjugated to the controversial practice from a religious or spiritual advisor.

[2329] Oh, boy.

[2330] Yeah.

[2331] Yikes.

[2332] That's crazy.

[2333] It feels medieval and it feels like it stopped happening in the 80s.

[2334] I know.

[2335] But that's nuts.

[2336] I know.

[2337] That's it.

[2338] That was everything.

[2339] Yeah.

[2340] Well, we covered a lot of ground.

[2341] We did.

[2342] We had a tiny little debate.

[2343] It was playful.

[2344] Yeah.

[2345] Slat boxing, I think we'd call it.

[2346] Oh.

[2347] We're not calling it a dance.

[2348] We could call it a...

[2349] I think our dances are more serious than this last thing about the 47 -year -old.

[2350] Oh, yeah.

[2351] I didn't even know what you were talking about.

[2352] That's not it.

[2353] That wasn't any of a dance.

[2354] That was like we were both tapping our foot to the beat.

[2355] Yeah, that's right.

[2356] Foot tapping.

[2357] Okay, we have something else to do.

[2358] Armatured anonymous.

[2359] We've got to start Armchair Anonymous right now.

[2360] All right.

[2361] Love you.

[2362] Okay, I'm just, I'm coming back in real hot because I remembered as soon as we stop recording that it's HP sauce.

[2363] That's what I'm thinking about.

[2364] That's your vinegar sauce.

[2365] HP sauce.

[2366] HP sauce is a British brown sauce, the main ingredients of which are tomatoes and tamarind extract.

[2367] It was named after London's House of Parliament after making its first appearance on British dinner tables in the late 19th century.

[2368] It's 1800s.

[2369] HP sauce went on to become best selling brown sauce in UK in 2005 was 73 .8 % of the retail market.

[2370] Ooh.

[2371] So I thought it was dominant.

[2372] I was surprised that didn't come up.

[2373] Oh, and it's owned by Kraft.

[2374] It's Kraft Heinz Corporation.

[2375] Okay.

[2376] And you were right about H. I had the H part right.

[2377] So HP, if you were screaming at your radio, of course, HP.

[2378] HP.

[2379] Love you.

[2380] V. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2381] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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