Jada Pinkett Smith

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by Monica Smith.

[2] Good morning to you.

[3] Good morning.

[4] How are you?

[5] Happy Monday morning.

[6] It's Monday.

[7] It's a new week.

[8] Fresh start.

[9] Yeah.

[10] Mondays seems to always come first in the week.

[11] Actually, technically, I think it's Sunday.

[12] I hate that.

[13] Me too.

[14] Do you think that's bullshit?

[15] Yeah, I don't love it.

[16] Sunday's not the first day of the week.

[17] It's the last day of the week.

[18] It's like, I feel like a nerd made that up.

[19] Yeah.

[20] Is it because it's a religion?

[21] just connotation.

[22] I think you're supposed to start the week with the observance?

[23] I'm confused, but it's certainly the end of the weekend.

[24] How could the end of the weekend be the first day of the week?

[25] It must have been, it was invented before there were weekends and weekdays.

[26] Probably.

[27] This is an incredible episode.

[28] It's so good.

[29] It's insane.

[30] What an experience.

[31] Jada Pinkett Smith.

[32] I don't even need to tell you about Jada Pinkett Smith, but I will anyway.

[33] She's an actor, talk show host.

[34] She's directed.

[35] She's done everything.

[36] Huge producer.

[37] Red Table Talk.

[38] Monster of a show.

[39] Girl's trip, Madagascar, the 90 professor, set it off, and her book, which we talk about in great detail, worthy, which is really incredible.

[40] And this was just a fucking beautiful two hours.

[41] So lucky.

[42] Yeah.

[43] Please enjoy Jada Pinkett Smith.

[44] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[45] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[46] Or you can listen for free.

[47] wherever you get your podcasts.

[48] He's an armchair exeter.

[49] What do you think of these chairs?

[50] I like those chairs.

[51] I really do.

[52] I got to be honest.

[53] I was like, this is a real deal, armchair.

[54] That's right.

[55] We try to live up to the name.

[56] You do.

[57] If you want a brief history, it started with this recliner.

[58] This was Dax's.

[59] Okay.

[60] This was.

[61] And I found that my sweating in it, like my shirt was wet, and it may happen again today.

[62] And then when I go outside to take a picture with the kid, I'm like, oh, fuck, they're going to touch my back.

[63] You got really self -conscious about it.

[64] Incredibly self -conscious.

[65] I'm like, I need a fabric chair.

[66] So I ordered this online.

[67] I didn't know I was getting like a big and tall version.

[68] Because look, I'm 6 '3.

[69] Right.

[70] My feet don't touch the grandma.

[71] I also thought this grandma print would be charming.

[72] Monica hates it.

[73] I love it.

[74] I did not expect the grandma print.

[75] That's true.

[76] It's mixed messages for this big guy.

[77] Yeah.

[78] I was like, this is going to be cool.

[79] But also it didn't fix.

[80] sweating he still sweats in this so it didn't really help it's okay that's all good yeah that's that man heat you know what I mean when you six three you know I mean nothing you can do about that testosterone oozing out you were early are you always early or it's because you had to drive across the world I have to drive across the world so I'm always early for everything yeah now were you late to red because I'm late to this yeah I'm never late I guess I got that from my grandmother being punctual.

[81] Your mom's mom.

[82] Yeah, my mom's mom.

[83] I had to be punctual, so I'm always early, even in my own house.

[84] Was it strict?

[85] My childhood with my grandmother was very much about schedule.

[86] Yeah.

[87] I got to tell you, I have not had the experience I had in the last couple days since I was in college 23 years ago.

[88] It was very important to me that I actually read your entire book.

[89] Right.

[90] Because I have a lot of respect for you and I want to earn going to all these places.

[91] I don't want to read highlights.

[92] So I'm also dyslexic.

[93] I got to tell you the cramming I have done over the...

[94] I haven't done this since.

[95] Like, I got to the finish line like 40 minutes ago.

[96] Oh, wow.

[97] And I was like, okay, time to take the exam.

[98] I read the fucking bio book.

[99] Thanks, thank you.

[100] Very muscle memory.

[101] I was like, oh, I haven't had this experience in like 20 years.

[102] It's kind of fun, right?

[103] It is.

[104] Puts you back in that space.

[105] Panic, though.

[106] You remember that panic?

[107] Oh, yeah.

[108] You're like, oh, fuck.

[109] We were running out of time.

[110] I'm going to have to read them, too.

[111] and then wake up at six.

[112] I loved it.

[113] I loved it.

[114] I really, really loved getting to know your story.

[115] It's pretty bonkers.

[116] I know I have a habit of this, but there's some crazy parallels.

[117] Well, that's why I've been trying to get you to the red table.

[118] You got next.

[119] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

[120] But yeah, I mean, I don't even know where we would start, but I think, like, addict parents, young parents, divorced early, addiction, abuse, it's all right there.

[121] It's such a universal story for so many of us.

[122] It is.

[123] And I think, you know, when we were growing up, I don't know, you would occasionally hear someone come on Oprah, right?

[124] And say something.

[125] And then in my shitty town, it'd be like, well, they want attention.

[126] Yeah.

[127] Because you did feel it back in that day that if you were to acknowledge any of these traumas, that you'd be out.

[128] You'd be persona non grata, right?

[129] It was too high risk.

[130] For sure.

[131] It's such a different time.

[132] It's a way different time.

[133] And I'm delighted it's this way.

[134] Yeah, me too.

[135] More transparency.

[136] and we get to really share the authenticity of our stories.

[137] It's still a lot of stories that are quite taboo to share, you know.

[138] But I think in this day and age, with everything that's going on, I think what's most important is to let people know that you're not alone.

[139] And for those of us who have been through the gauntlet in a certain manner to share what we've learned along the way to try to get through this thing called life.

[140] Yeah, yeah.

[141] But, you know, I'm hypercritical of myself.

[142] I'm imagining you beat the shit out of yourself.

[143] Absolutely.

[144] I'm seeing all the incredible gifts that come out of the background.

[145] And I'm also relating so much with the character defects.

[146] I mean.

[147] That is a big part of it.

[148] Sometimes they're hand in hand often.

[149] Yeah, different sides of the same coin.

[150] This is the magic of A .A., right?

[151] I get immense pleasure out of seeing someone else with the same character defects.

[152] I'm like, no, they're struggling with the same thing.

[153] She's being tough again Let the world know don't hurt me Exactly Come on, Dex That's what it's all about If I had to isolate the number one similarity It's I will hurt you back Yeah There it is It's a bummer It breaks my heart for you It doesn't break my heart for me But I'm aware of it It's got to be fucking exhausting To be around us though No Yes and that's the thing I had to realize You know what I'm saying?

[154] I had to realize that But in my coming to Jesus moments about myself through my healing process.

[155] Yeah.

[156] In the book, I got to say, I got to really applaud in a very, very AA way.

[157] You're brutal on yourself.

[158] You take your inventory in this book.

[159] I take a lot of inventory.

[160] And I fucking admire it.

[161] It's the bravest shit anyone can do to acknowledge I've been an asshole along the way.

[162] I've been indulgent.

[163] I've been all these things.

[164] And then I have such compassion for it.

[165] So my first question really is, you wrote it.

[166] you have all that control while you're sitting by yourself and you're experiencing that.

[167] And then now, it's seeping out and now it's not in your control.

[168] Yeah.

[169] And is it scary?

[170] It's scary.

[171] It is, right?

[172] Right.

[173] But I told everybody, especially Will, I was just talking to him on the phone.

[174] I was like, I told you it's going to be a rough start.

[175] Brace free impact, but it's going to be a cool landing.

[176] Yeah, yeah.

[177] That's the hard part when there's other people.

[178] You still have an obligation to share your truth, but sometimes it brings in other people's truths too.

[179] It's been interesting what different people take from my story.

[180] It's like, well, no, no, no, it's not exactly the, ah, damn it, all right, cool.

[181] You know what I mean?

[182] That's like, okay, that's your interpretate.

[183] All right, you wanted to start with, uh, fine.

[184] But you kind of have to just let it go, just trust the process, because it really is a process right now.

[185] I guess the whole journey is to eventually at some point look at yourself and go like, yeah, man, here's the whole thing.

[186] I'm cool with it and it's okay with me if you're not.

[187] Right.

[188] This is jumping into the fire.

[189] This is it.

[190] This is jumping into fire.

[191] Yeah, like you might be a day away from self -actualization.

[192] Exactly.

[193] Straight up.

[194] Straight up.

[195] That's the bummer for me is that there's going to just be headlines.

[196] It's going to get reduced to the foremost.

[197] exciting things on a gossipy level, and that's got to be frustrating.

[198] That's a bummer, but, you know, been there several times over.

[199] I'm just glad that there's a book.

[200] So just in case somebody really wants to know what's going on, you got 406 pages you can read it.

[201] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[202] You didn't phone it in.

[203] It's a book.

[204] So I want to say if you zoomed out for a second and you imagine this was a book from someone in the 20s, and it's about this woman who grows up in Baltimore in this crazy situation, sells dope.

[205] Works at merry -go -round.

[206] By the way, so many blasts from the past.

[207] Fucking Mary -Go -R -R -R -R -W -W -W -T.

[208] Oh, the music was on.

[209] Mary -Go -R -R.

[210] It was like a precursor to the gap, but it was way cooler.

[211] Oh, way cooler.

[212] Yeah, it was music blasts.

[213] There was a county seat.

[214] Did you have county seat as well?

[215] That was another one like Mar -G -R -R -R - What would we compare Mary -Gor -R -Tof -H -Tof -H -Tof -H -T -M?

[216] Maybe, okay, okay, sure, okay, sure.

[217] H -H -N -H -M?

[218] Or H &M?

[219] H &M or 20.

[220] 20 forever.

[221] 20 forever.

[222] Forever 21.

[223] Forever 21.

[224] Something like that.

[225] You know, they would have like satin, zebra stripes, shirts.

[226] If you and I went to the mall.

[227] With shoulder pads.

[228] And I want to see where the hot girls were at.

[229] I went straight to merry -go -round.

[230] I got no business in there.

[231] See, so the hot girls went.

[232] That's where the hustlers went to shop for their girlfriends.

[233] Yeah.

[234] Yeah.

[235] It was like the place, if you had money.

[236] Oh, it was expensive shit Well It wasn't that it was expensive In the same way Forever 21 Yeah, yeah, yeah But it was like That was the place that you went to go get your You're going out clothes Yeah, you're going out clothes You're going to the club An outfit They were in malls generally So it was pretty sanitized And that merry -garten was like Pulling you in this pulse Of vibrancy Exactly I can't believe you worked at Because that's where all the hustlers came into In Baltimore, that's where you met all the big dogs.

[237] Wow.

[238] That's right.

[239] It was like the lobby of the four seasons.

[240] On the street level.

[241] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[242] Our equivalent.

[243] Yeah, exactly.

[244] Okay, but it's a story about this, and I'm using the word little girl affectionately, objectively little.

[245] You're a little girl.

[246] Yeah.

[247] In a fucking big crazy world at the apex of a big crazy time in Baltimore.

[248] And so if you remove yourself from it and you think about giving your daughter or my daughter a book, And going like, just people, what happened to this human being in life?

[249] They started there.

[250] Along the way, they bump into these geniuses, these world class forever in history, geniuses.

[251] You hung out with Picasso.

[252] You were best friends with Picasso.

[253] Tupac.

[254] Oh, I was like, wait.

[255] No, I mean, it's like legendary.

[256] You time traveled?

[257] Just the journey in itself, like as an odyssey, it's pretty bonkers.

[258] Thank you.

[259] Yeah.

[260] I hope you can zoom up just a little bit to go.

[261] A little bit.

[262] shit happened.

[263] Even my daughter said it.

[264] She's like, you've lived like five different lifetimes and one, you know.

[265] Yes.

[266] You got a short trip on this planet and you packed every fucking thing into it.

[267] And let me tell you, this book is not even, that's just one line.

[268] Like, there's so much that I've left out with the journey.

[269] It's been full on.

[270] I've been really blessed in that way.

[271] Yeah.

[272] So you move around a ton.

[273] Let's just start there.

[274] There's like really no stability happening.

[275] Dad's around for a year.

[276] Yeah.

[277] My, my father was kind of in and out of my life because he had really, they both did, had big substantive use problems.

[278] Yeah, just take your pick, crack addict and a heroin addict, arguing over who's got to.

[279] Yeah, exactly.

[280] I talk about it in the book, told me at seven, I can't be your dad, you know, I'm a criminal and a drug addict.

[281] And I was like, okay, that makes sense.

[282] You got logic on your side.

[283] Yeah, I was like, that makes sense.

[284] And at that time, he wasn't in my life enough for me to miss him.

[285] I was just happy that somebody was telling me the truth, that someone, that someone, somebody wasn't trying to act like it was something that it wasn't.

[286] Yeah, get one over on it.

[287] Yeah, you know.

[288] Because already this is a chip on our shoulder.

[289] Exactly.

[290] Don't try to get one over on.

[291] So that's where I was even at seven.

[292] So I had an appreciation for like, thank you.

[293] So I wouldn't even say the dad's stories are heartbreak.

[294] For me, the first real heartbreakers, Tony.

[295] My bonus dad.

[296] I mean, this fucking breaks my heart.

[297] Yeah.

[298] Because you had a chance.

[299] I had a chance.

[300] Will would say to me all the time, he was like, you know, your issues with your father.

[301] And I was like, it's not him.

[302] And then I realized it was Tony.

[303] All of that abandonment.

[304] So what age was this?

[305] So he came into my life when I was nine.

[306] And then my grandmother passed away when I was 13.

[307] Right after she passed away, he divorced my mother.

[308] Yeah.

[309] But let's sense this age, too, other than granddad, which shockingly and probably is an anesthesiologist, a black anesthesiologist in the 70s.

[310] But other than him, we don't have a lot of folks that are super dependable.

[311] Well, it was him and my father's father, Grant Pinkett.

[312] I had my two granddad.

[313] Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were close to a dad's dad and mom's mom's mom.

[314] Yeah, exactly.

[315] Fuck it.

[316] Let's sidebar for a second.

[317] Grandparents.

[318] Lifesavers.

[319] For me, I don't have them.

[320] I don't know.

[321] Right.

[322] Yes, Papa Bob.

[323] Fuck.

[324] Yeah.

[325] If you don't get to witness someone with no ulterior motives, I just wants to love you.

[326] There it is.

[327] Okay, so you got granddad's.

[328] But the men, I don't know, but Tony arrives, and Tony's a lawyer, and he's going to work for the state prosecutor.

[329] He's still a lawyer today, very successful in Baltimore.

[330] Oh, he is.

[331] Yes, very successful.

[332] What age do you start becoming aware that mom's struggling?

[333] It was probably six.

[334] You know, you find the little weed seeds all over the house.

[335] These kind of like, you stay out here, we're going in this room.

[336] Right.

[337] You know.

[338] Adult stuff's happening.

[339] Yeah, adult stuff's happening.

[340] Everything was cool, but I think as I got older and specifically once, it was just she and I. That's when it got really extreme, nodding off in the house, burn cigarettes in all the furniture, the white powder on the dresser and spoons.

[341] Spoons is a giveaway.

[342] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[343] But she became a nurse, an RN.

[344] She's a nurse.

[345] She's an RN.

[346] She was at one time head nurse.

[347] at a women's clinic in the inner city, you would have never.

[348] She was the most high -functioning heroin addict.

[349] We would talk about this the other day because somebody was like, I never knew a high -functioning heroin addict.

[350] And I was like, damn, she's the only high -functioning heroin addict.

[351] I knew.

[352] My mother's like, no, there's plenty.

[353] There are.

[354] I get into arguments with people on here all the time.

[355] I'm like, you think you have an idea when an addict is?

[356] No, no. The addict's your boss.

[357] The addict owns that.

[358] Yeah, real talk.

[359] There ain't no type, but that is impressive mom was juggling all that.

[360] But anyways, Tony arrives, and you guys are immediately thick as thieves.

[361] Yeah.

[362] I had so much fun with him.

[363] It seemed like I spent more time with him during that time than with my mother.

[364] Like, when I think about that scope of time, I'm like, where was Adrian?

[365] Well, she was studying and working.

[366] On the weekends, we were off driving to Boston and seeing some of his college friends.

[367] And then we were driving the New York.

[368] Like, we were always on the road.

[369] We were always on the go, go, go, go, go.

[370] And so we had a really good time together.

[371] He's got to be your first glimpse of, oh, I'm going to be able to go out and devour stuff.

[372] Like, I'm going to be able to leave here and I'm able to go places because he's on fire.

[373] To be honest with you, when I'm thinking about it now, I feel like there are a lot of characteristics in Tony that Will has.

[374] Sure.

[375] Well, there's some major patterns.

[376] Pat, your dad is tall and charismatic as fuck and handsome and funny.

[377] Yeah.

[378] Well, we all do that, right?

[379] Yeah.

[380] They're both funny, charismatic, go -getters, ambitious.

[381] Smart as hell.

[382] Smart as hell.

[383] Want to travel.

[384] Just on the go, go, go, go.

[385] Let's go, go, go.

[386] Fun, fun, fun.

[387] Do you think Tony was taking you to some of these places because he was trying to remove you from what he knew was a not great situation?

[388] No, I think that he just wanted a road dog.

[389] A road dog.

[390] A friend.

[391] Yeah.

[392] Yeah, yeah.

[393] Someone chat was in the car on the way up to Boston.

[394] Like, you're here with me. I can't leave you home.

[395] So let's go.

[396] You know?

[397] He was just ready to go.

[398] But they get divorced.

[399] And then he has full intention and even tells you, like, don't worry, your mom and I are splitting up.

[400] But you and I aren't.

[401] Yeah, we aren't.

[402] But what happened?

[403] He hooks up with this woman.

[404] He's trying to get his life together.

[405] They get engaged.

[406] And she calls me and she says, you need to find your real dad.

[407] Don't call here anymore.

[408] Oh.

[409] Oh, man, you had a shot here.

[410] I know, I know.

[411] You're going to make me cry.

[412] Don't make me cry, Dax.

[413] You deserve to be cried over.

[414] Don't make me cry.

[415] But, yes, she really tried to terrorize my mom and I. I mean, at that time, I was young.

[416] Thank God she didn't try that when I was 16.

[417] Right.

[418] That would have been a different story.

[419] After that, the situation with my mom was turning dire.

[420] It was really bad.

[421] I would imagine post -divorce.

[422] Must have ramped up.

[423] Yeah, post -divorce and her mother, who was her everything.

[424] And probably between Tony and Marion were the only two people that could keep her accountable.

[425] Once they were both gone, nobody's looking, just gone.

[426] You assess pretty early.

[427] You don't want to be dependent on a dude.

[428] Yeah.

[429] Do you know at what age?

[430] Well, my grandmother from a very young age always told me, have your own.

[431] do not depend on a man. Now, mind you, she was married to a very successful doctor, but was a social worker and always worked.

[432] That messaging was really strong for her because of what happened to her mother.

[433] Her mother was put into an insane asylum by her father and just left there.

[434] It used to be able to do that.

[435] Yeah, you didn't like your wife.

[436] Exactly.

[437] My wife's crazy.

[438] Let's go to dinner.

[439] Right, exactly.

[440] This don't look like a restaurant.

[441] This looks like Bellevue.

[442] Yeah, we're going to drop you off.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Yeah.

[445] She just drilled that into my mind.

[446] So at a very early age, that was the mission.

[447] Now, I guess the thing I'm most curious about is when you decide, like, I'm going to get mine and I have to because that's going to be how I protect myself.

[448] And I don't give a fuck how I get it.

[449] A lot of people are in that situation.

[450] They don't decide, like, I'm just going to do whatever it takes.

[451] Yeah.

[452] You probably can't remember a moment or anything that you decided I'm not really too concerned about the rules.

[453] Yeah, I think I've never been concerned about the rules.

[454] I mean, I was a rule breaker from day one.

[455] You're a rascal.

[456] I was a rascal.

[457] Nobody was following the rules in your life.

[458] Your dad left.

[459] Like, there are no rules clearly.

[460] It's free rule, right?

[461] And then even in my structured environment, my grandmother was in West Indian woman who took me to the ethical society on Sundays.

[462] That was unheard of.

[463] What black family like goes to the ethical society?

[464] We should have been in a Baptist church somewhere.

[465] Sure, sure, yeah.

[466] My grandmother was constantly breaking the rules.

[467] Whatever you thought that a black woman, and specifically a West Indian black woman, she was surely going way against the grain.

[468] I guess maybe my thought or my suspicion was it's a pretty perfect timing that at 13, you get this boyfriend who's 16, you're sneaking out and you're spending the entire night at 7 -11 where he works.

[469] You're average 13 -year -old's not pulling an all -nighter to hang with a dude at 7 -Eleven.

[470] That's also the age Tony splits and grandma dies.

[471] Yes.

[472] So I could imagine, at least, you being in that situation going, guess what, life's not fair.

[473] So I'm not fucking playing either.

[474] Yeah, I mean, I was just like, nobody's here.

[475] I like this dude.

[476] I like this dude.

[477] I'm here in this house by myself.

[478] Fuck it.

[479] I'm going down and go see you.

[480] Yeah.

[481] And just feeling like, all right, well, I'm on my own now.

[482] I'm going to do me. Everybody else is doing them, so.

[483] You had a pretty healthy fear that mom might also stop providing.

[484] Yeah, I had a pretty healthy fear that she might not make it.

[485] I could get that call.

[486] I'll never forget when my Aunt Karen, who's her older sister, was the only one that was just like, get your shit together.

[487] Well, she herself at that point's in recovery, right?

[488] Yeah, she had been in recovery for 11 years or so.

[489] She went guardianship, and that was always an issue.

[490] I could really see the level of my mother's addiction through my aunt because she was just so scared and constantly on my mother about getting in rehab, getting her shit together.

[491] You don't get your shit together.

[492] I'm taking Jada.

[493] I was just like, I'm not going to worry about all of that.

[494] I'm going to make sure I'm good.

[495] You're going to figure out a little safety net for yourself.

[496] Yeah.

[497] And at this point you move, because there's times where you're at grandma and grandpa's.

[498] where you guys are living with Tony all together.

[499] And then at some point, I think in around 13 -ish, you move into Baltimore.

[500] We move into a row house that's not too far from my aunt, about 10 minutes.

[501] And it's just she and I. It hasn't been just she and I in a long time.

[502] And there we're seeing dealers.

[503] We're seeing people make money.

[504] Not there specifically.

[505] I got to go back to that block when I did the Today Show.

[506] And that block was such a family -oriented block.

[507] It was everything past that block, everything in my other worlds around me in Baltimore.

[508] How far from Cherry Hill is it?

[509] Oh, Cherry Hill is way far away from where I live.

[510] Cherry Hill is a whole world of its own.

[511] It's a peninsula, one way in, one way out.

[512] And so this is where some of my friends lived that I used to rock with.

[513] that used to be my stomping grounds.

[514] Just remembered one of the other parallels.

[515] We love roller skating.

[516] Yes.

[517] December I've rented the rink.

[518] Oh, wow.

[519] I've got upcoming, I can't wait.

[520] Oh, that's great.

[521] So, right, you got your fingers in some different...

[522] Yeah, all these little subcultures that I'm in.

[523] So you're meeting like small time hustlers and you're meeting players...

[524] At the roller skating rink.

[525] At, you know...

[526] At Marygo -Rour.

[527] At Mary -Gor -Round.

[528] You know, at 7 -11.

[529] They're all around.

[530] Jude Hill Park every Sunday.

[531] The clubs, definitely near my neighborhood, up there on Park Heights, up there on Liberty.

[532] I mean, you name it.

[533] By Park.

[534] Green Mount Avenue.

[535] That's East.

[536] That was...

[537] His zone was rough.

[538] I don't mess with East Baltimore.

[539] Okay.

[540] Yeah.

[541] Oh, wow.

[542] All right.

[543] That's a whole another world.

[544] But my peer group, that's how we rolled.

[545] And then simultaneous to all of this, you're getting very interested in dance.

[546] getting interested in acting and performing, and you get into the Baltimore School of the Arts.

[547] And this is Tony 2 .0.

[548] You got another shot.

[549] Yeah.

[550] Like as shitty as everything is.

[551] Also, there's these kind of lightning bolts of opportunity.

[552] Yeah, a lot of lightning bolts because I would audition for different gigs, like PBS specials, and I would get these gigs.

[553] And then, you know, I was hair modeling.

[554] And so I would be in magazines.

[555] I was always doing something.

[556] And even in Baltimore during that time.

[557] I was popping.

[558] Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

[559] And even Pock and I, there's this Mondaman Mall poster that he and I got called in to do.

[560] It was like a game.

[561] So you knew him when you were that young?

[562] They met in the school.

[563] I met Pock when I was in 10th grade.

[564] Oh, wow.

[565] At this school.

[566] Yes.

[567] Oh, my God.

[568] Did you know they were best friends?

[569] No. Right.

[570] There's so much not to know.

[571] No. By the way, I knew that part.

[572] I don't know all the other stuff that maybe you knew that I didn't know until the book.

[573] I know some stuff.

[574] Yeah, I missed all the later stuff.

[575] Oh, my gosh.

[576] I knew about the pox stuff.

[577] All the later stuff, whatever.

[578] Man, I welled up a few different times in the book.

[579] Well, you cried yesterday talking about it.

[580] I was talking to Monica about it and I got fucked up.

[581] Boy, hearing you describe meeting that young boy with that smile and that charisma.

[582] And that peanut head.

[583] Yeah, he hadn't grown into himself yet.

[584] Like, imagine him before he's the dude on that.

[585] album cover.

[586] Yes.

[587] It's so sweet.

[588] Just a little boy.

[589] Yeah.

[590] Have you watched it, Monica?

[591] The Hughes Brothers did a documentary on him.

[592] I haven't watched it yet because I was just in the midst of this book and so I got to get into it.

[593] I imagine too.

[594] Like if someone made a doc about my best friend Aaron Weekly, I don't know that I could go into it not on guard.

[595] How are you going to tell a story about Aaron Winkley?

[596] Like I should be telling the story about it.

[597] Like protective, yeah.

[598] Also incredibly interesting backgrounds that the Hughes brothers in Pock had this huge falling out.

[599] There was like a fist fight on set.

[600] Yet they in a up doing, or one of the Hughes brothers ended up doing this doc and kind of finding his way back into life.

[601] That's what's kind of special about the doc.

[602] But what I didn't know about his story was the mom is one of the most impressive humans to ever live.

[603] Yes.

[604] She defended the Black Panthers.

[605] 15 of them were being tried by the U .S. government.

[606] And she at like 20 years old, represented them and fucking won for this insane case.

[607] Oh my God.

[608] Whoa!

[609] Yeah, she was incredible.

[610] In my opinion, in a lot of ways, Pac was just the male version of his mom.

[611] I didn't know his father, but Faye was brilliant.

[612] And when she started speaking in the room, she was as charismatic and she was so dynamic.

[613] She was powerful.

[614] Yeah.

[615] She was an incredible woman.

[616] So his mom's also struggling with addiction.

[617] Yeah.

[618] Just like your mom, she's brilliant.

[619] She's capable, and she's drowning.

[620] So you two meet, you guys are both fucking little sparklers.

[621] Yeah.

[622] And you got these parents and then you become thick as thieves immediately.

[623] It's so sweet.

[624] Yeah, we became family because it was like, okay, you know, when you create these unspoken contracts with one another, it's like, I got you, you got me. We're going to be good.

[625] There's a lot of different overarching themes, but the one that I can't escape is masculinity, femininity, it's such a force in this book.

[626] It's happening right away when we meet Pock.

[627] In your story, he's too cute and charismatic for the dope dealers who got all the power on his street.

[628] So he's living in abject fear.

[629] Right.

[630] Because they don't like that he's feeling himself.

[631] Yeah, they don't like him.

[632] And he's too tiny to do anything about that.

[633] It wasn't even about him being tiny.

[634] It was about he was new.

[635] So he didn't have his soldiers.

[636] It was just him.

[637] But that's the heartbreaking part of the masculinity trap that we all grew up in, which is like, here's a kid who's so sparkly.

[638] And what he's got to dedicate a lot of his time to is thinking how to not get beat down at all times.

[639] And not get caught up in all of that.

[640] And not stomp out his light yet don't shine too bright around this person.

[641] Yep.

[642] And then, I mean, I have my own opinions about his story.

[643] I don't know if you would be offended by him or not.

[644] It's so tragic to me because he was in such pursuit of feeling safe.

[645] Yeah.

[646] And he took on this thug thing way too much.

[647] He could have went this way and Ben Prince and he went this way.

[648] and was with Shug.

[649] That breaks my heart, and that's that masculinity trap.

[650] Yeah.

[651] And I don't think it's his fault.

[652] Like when I hear where he was growing up and how scared he, whether he was showing you or not.

[653] I think he's also looking for his tribe, his army.

[654] He had this thing about loyalty, family.

[655] And I think that he was looking to feel safe, but I also feel like he was looking to have love.

[656] So he was always looking for these different forms.

[657] forms of family.

[658] Unconditional.

[659] Unconditional.

[660] Just that ride or die.

[661] Do you think he know some way he felt robbed that he didn't live in the time where the Panthers were a thing?

[662] Really, his destiny was to have been like his mom and been in a group like that.

[663] Talk about family.

[664] Yeah.

[665] I don't necessarily feel like he felt robbed because it was still very much a part.

[666] It was alive.

[667] And he was very passionate about it.

[668] I think for him, it was more his frustration of the.

[669] messaging kind of disappearing because what his mother was fighting for was still in full effect yeah right and he felt right and he felt especially during his earlier career like twopocalypse if you listen to twopocalypse that is my favorite teupac album okay because it is quintessential pock as far as his messaging as far as what he wants for his community he was such a freedom fighter.

[670] And so I feel like sometimes he felt that it was just him.

[671] He felt alone sometimes with his passion and his concern for the community.

[672] So yeah, and I just think that once he went to jail, a lot changed after that.

[673] Most people don't get improved by jail.

[674] Malcolm Maxime do so now, but in general.

[675] A lot changed.

[676] And then I think his anger just kind of got the best of him.

[677] And then his anger was preyed upon, in my opinion.

[678] Yeah, yeah.

[679] It was exploited.

[680] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[681] What's up, guys?

[682] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[683] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[684] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[685] And I don't mean just friends.

[686] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[687] So follow, watch, and listen.

[688] And so, baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[689] We've all been there.

[690] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[691] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[692] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[693] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found.

[694] at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[695] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[696] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[697] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[698] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[699] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[700] There's some pretty good footage in that doc of him at like 16 or something.

[701] Yeah.

[702] Because he would find his way under the news and shit as a kid.

[703] Like he'd be, right?

[704] He'd be like we representing some student body.

[705] Exactly.

[706] He'd be preaching.

[707] It's enormously impressive what he was verbally.

[708] Yes.

[709] When people ask me, what do you miss about Pac?

[710] Being able to sit in front of him and him just educate me and me just hear a sermon, a lecture, and Pauqua talk for hours.

[711] You know what I mean?

[712] And I would never get tired.

[713] And he taught me so much about the Black Panther Party, about the Black Power movement, because I grew up understanding civil rights because that's what my grandmother, just the civil rights movement, because she was a supporter of Martin Luther King and that whole thing.

[714] And so I was very well educated in regards.

[715] to the social justice issues, but from a different lens.

[716] So when Pock came into my life, it was like, oh, nah.

[717] Well, that's just, I think we can say very clearly, your mom, or your grandma, rather, was in the Martin Luther King silo.

[718] Yeah.

[719] And then there was the Malcolm X silo.

[720] And then there's just two different silos.

[721] And what's crazy, and I can fully admit this in the 80s in Detroit, when I would see footage of Malcolm X, I'd be like, ooh, this is a little scary for me. Right.

[722] Then I get educated and then I don't know I think it was maybe like six years ago I'm watching some more footage of Malcolm X and I go oh my lord he was 30 years ahead of where we all figured out like he's talking about redlining and generational wealth and all these things that we now accept but it was so radical.

[723] He was way ahead of his time yeah I'm embarrassed you know it took me that long to recognize well it was the propaganda it was the narrative about him yes and Martin Luther didn't scare white people I mean he scared some crazy racist southerners, but up in the north, we were like, we love Martin Luther King.

[724] He seems nice.

[725] But he just had a different approach.

[726] It was.

[727] But yeah, Pac was just, I missed that about him.

[728] You know what I'm so glad you acknowledged?

[729] Because my first thought when I know you two are friends is like, how on earth do those two not date?

[730] They're the most beautiful humans in a three -state area.

[731] Their friends, why aren't they fucking?

[732] This is impossible.

[733] Especially as teenagers.

[734] Yes.

[735] Horny teenagers.

[736] Trust me. Pock and I questioned that a whole lot too.

[737] Trust me. You're like, should we?

[738] But you have a moment on the porch.

[739] Yeah, we got a moment on the porch.

[740] He's like, you know, maybe I'm like, Pac, fuckie, kiss me. Yeah, and he does.

[741] And it's like for the both of us.

[742] Okay.

[743] I always want to make that very clear that we both.

[744] Pull back like, what the fuck?

[745] Now, listen, you're going to have to acknowledge that most of us in the real world are going to go, not a possibility.

[746] There's a lot of women going, there ain't no bad pot kiss.

[747] And I'm going, no way someone kissed you.

[748] I promised you.

[749] I promise you.

[750] It was like so disgusting.

[751] And you know what?

[752] I think that God just made it so.

[753] Yeah.

[754] He helped you guys.

[755] Yes, yes.

[756] I mean, really helped us.

[757] You need family.

[758] You don't need a bad.

[759] Right, exactly.

[760] And God was like, you two will give each other a special kind of ruin.

[761] I need something else to be going on here.

[762] You guys want to hate each other in six weeks?

[763] Or do you want friends for life?

[764] Because that's what was going to happen.

[765] Yeah.

[766] You were spared.

[767] Yeah.

[768] And you acknowledge it.

[769] What's great about it is now that the romance thing's completely settled, now vulnerability and a lack of vanity can exist.

[770] That's the gift of not being romantic.

[771] That is the gift.

[772] And, you know, honestly, as we got older, the way that we could pull each other's coattails, specifically once we got to Hollywood.

[773] Yeah, I bet.

[774] Because he would look at me like, chick, I knew you went.

[775] Don't trip.

[776] Right.

[777] And I would look at him like, A, all that.

[778] It's cool on the video.

[779] But it's me, brough.

[780] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[781] And so that became a really powerful component in our later.

[782] You guys were tethered to each other.

[783] Yeah.

[784] We pulled each other through some stuff.

[785] So I'm going to kind of fast forward through drug dealing Just because let's just say for the record You were Slingin' Dope which is how could you not have with all of that other I mean to me It's like 4 .11 and 15 I can see where one wouldn't slink dope in Baltimore I guess but it's been in your life since you were little Yeah But it does get serious we need to say a couple things It's cute and you got money and you're buying friend stuff, you're even buying poxam stuff in a very delicate way, so he doesn't feel emasculated again, the masculine thing.

[786] Yeah, exactly.

[787] But then inevitably, as happens, real shit starts happening.

[788] So you go to the Cherry Hills spot.

[789] Yeah, so I set up shop, this apartment that's on the first floor, so I can serve outside of the window and through the door with a chain.

[790] And so somebody that I had dealt with in the past and the situation didn't go well then.

[791] I should have known, but he came and he wanted.

[792] to buy a certain amount of Coke.

[793] So I was like, well, let me see your cash.

[794] So you had this big wad of cash.

[795] And I was like, okay, are you serious?

[796] So I go get the product that he needs.

[797] I open the door.

[798] I'm about to pass him the product.

[799] And two guys from the side of that door kick the door in.

[800] One puts a nine millimeter to my head.

[801] The other one just points this nine millimeter at me until the dude that has the gun to my head is like, go check the spot, see what else is in here.

[802] And they rob me. There's also a weird woman whose apartment it is that you're just kind of subletting.

[803] Yeah, exactly.

[804] That part, like if I'm shooting the comedy version, the fact that there's a civilian in the mix is crazy.

[805] Well, it was her apartment and she ducks under the table.

[806] I fall back into this chair quite like what you're sitting in deck, but it doesn't have the grandma print on it.

[807] Yeah, you could have used a little grandma preting that moment.

[808] Oh, could I. And so he runs through the spot to see if there's any more stash in there.

[809] But the guy that has the gun in my head, he takes all the jewelry on me. I mean, I've got anklets.

[810] I got all this rope chains and rings.

[811] And I never went to Cherry Hill with all that shit on me. I was stopping for a minute.

[812] Yeah, because you had some mentors that advised against this.

[813] Yes.

[814] He takes all my cash.

[815] He takes everything and leave.

[816] But this is an interesting thing because, again, I have found myself in this situation.

[817] It's like, I can handle anything.

[818] I can handle anything.

[819] Oh, while we're in this situation now, this is bigger than one can handle, I'd say.

[820] This is the situation where you pee yourself?

[821] Yes, I peed on myself, yes.

[822] Which is not what you would have predicted you would have done in that situation.

[823] Oh, hell no. And I had a gun on me. And you probably in your fantasy, you would have pulled that.

[824] I would have pulled the gun.

[825] And that's the first thing my homeboy said when I called him, he said, who did you do with your gun?

[826] I said, I didn't think about you.

[827] And that's when I realized.

[828] I'm like, yo, you are not built for this.

[829] That's what I'm trying to get at.

[830] We have these moments where you get right up to the moment.

[831] And you're like, wait, are we all the way in?

[832] Are we in Scarface?

[833] This is not for me. Is this where you really want to do?

[834] I didn't even think about using that gun that he gave me. Right.

[835] And then that's fell very quickly thereafter.

[836] And almost as a result of that, you find yourself.

[837] getting stuck up again in a basement very shortly thereafter i get stuck up again helping out someone to move some product and i just felt good that i was still trusted you know after getting robbed and this whole thing and they were like yo come with me to move this and we get stuck up again and i'm like what the fuck how many signals would you like how many more do you need how many more do you need I got endless signals.

[838] And then my mother found out.

[839] Yeah, oops.

[840] And then the wrath of Adrian.

[841] Can you imagine?

[842] Like, I'm reading through my book and I'm like, through everything I've been through.

[843] She still scares me, right?

[844] Out of everything.

[845] Yeah.

[846] I'm not scared of the police.

[847] I'm scared of when my mother comes and gets me at the police station.

[848] She also doesn't have the moral high ground.

[849] But she's always been...

[850] Protect her.

[851] Yeah, at the most pivotal moment.

[852] moments of my life.

[853] Adrian showed up with that cape, which is crazy.

[854] Was she clean at this time or no?

[855] No. Got it.

[856] Not even close.

[857] It was a very sad story about her stopping by Mary go around to put a coat on layaway to try to win your affection a little bit and then nodding off in front of your boss.

[858] Yeah.

[859] That was a rough one.

[860] But again, right, you're in that world where it's like nobody there's unfamiliar with this.

[861] It's kind of like what I try to explain to people.

[862] We grew up in a war zone.

[863] zone.

[864] And as extreme as those cases seem, I know people that, that's Disneyland.

[865] That would have been a good week.

[866] That's just what it is, right?

[867] People are like, weren't you scared?

[868] When you're in that mindset, that's what this is.

[869] But this is where it's misleading.

[870] Because you've also already been, dude rolls up in a new three series, got a new car, come for a ride.

[871] Let's go to McDonald's.

[872] Car chase immediately.

[873] Car stolen.

[874] Fucking full -blown police chase.

[875] Yeah, out of a movie.

[876] And again, you're brushing them all off.

[877] Yeah.

[878] I know this well, right?

[879] Yeah.

[880] And you're not even considering that they're piling up in you.

[881] No. Those adrenal dumps thinking, oh, I might die.

[882] They're almost fun.

[883] Not even almost.

[884] They're fun.

[885] They're fun.

[886] That's what you know.

[887] This is like.

[888] And it wakes you the fuck up.

[889] Yeah.

[890] It's a high.

[891] You do your best thinking.

[892] You're at your brightest, your sharpest.

[893] Like all those things to experience that is kind of nice.

[894] Yeah.

[895] And so that was an addiction that I had to unravel just being used to chaos.

[896] That's been a huge part of my journey.

[897] Yeah.

[898] Because you kind of feel.

[899] dead.

[900] If you don't have anything short of that stuff.

[901] Yep.

[902] So if it's not some high tension or just some craziness going on, you're like, I'm not living right now.

[903] So let me create something.

[904] Every single trip to the bar in Detroit, it was like 80 % chance we're throwing down tonight.

[905] Yep.

[906] There's a level of excitement.

[907] I didn't go to bars without thinking that was what was likely to be on the table.

[908] Well, see, that's what happened to us when we used to go to clubs in Baltimore.

[909] It's like, you know it's going to be a shootout.

[910] Yes.

[911] You know it's going to be a shootout.

[912] Right.

[913] And people are like, well, why would you?

[914] I was like, that's what we did.

[915] That's where all the hobby were.

[916] That's entertainment.

[917] Yeah.

[918] That's entertainment.

[919] When you grow up, you're in a war zone.

[920] You're not getting out.

[921] This is what it is.

[922] Yeah.

[923] And you get that crowd thing where it's like, shit's popping up.

[924] Things are happening.

[925] You see, these people are running over here.

[926] And you're like figuring out where you're staying.

[927] I'm going to get out here, but I'm going to get close and watch.

[928] Like, all that stuff's so exciting.

[929] It's just part of the upbringing.

[930] But when mom catches you selling dope, you had already been accepted to the University of North.

[931] North Carolina School of Arts, which you are not going to.

[932] No. Get real.

[933] Why would you go there?

[934] Yeah.

[935] But why did you apply that?

[936] I didn't.

[937] Oh.

[938] So here's what happened.

[939] My theater department head, they came to Baltimore School for the Arts to audition.

[940] They're scouting.

[941] And he was like, I signed you up.

[942] You are going to audition.

[943] And I'm saying to myself, fine, I'll audition, but I'm never going to go.

[944] So whatever.

[945] And so I auditioned.

[946] And I get accepted.

[947] accept it.

[948] And I'm like, oopsies.

[949] What?

[950] Cool.

[951] Like, I'm not going.

[952] But that mom is like, you're going.

[953] Pack your shit.

[954] It wasn't even like, you're going.

[955] You're getting sentenced to college.

[956] Yeah, you're getting sentenced to college.

[957] Pack your shit.

[958] Also at this Baltimore School of the Arts is Josh Charles.

[959] Oh my God.

[960] Because she's friends with Josh Charles.

[961] Tupac and Josh Charles.

[962] This is white.

[963] I love how you describe it.

[964] I'm so delighted for Charles.

[965] You're like, he's the coolest white dude in the whole school.

[966] He was.

[967] Yeah, always had been.

[968] I met Josh in elementary school at Mount Washington Elementary, and I just loved him.

[969] He seems cool.

[970] He's cool as fuck.

[971] That's where he got the swagger.

[972] Yeah.

[973] He's from Baltimore.

[974] Once he went to New York and he was living the life of a professional actor.

[975] Me and my home girl, Corey Washburn, at the time, went to see Josh in New York and kicked it with Josh.

[976] She's telling the mom they were going to go do an Alexander Technique workshop.

[977] And then got busted.

[978] You got busted a lot.

[979] I did.

[980] I was always getting caught.

[981] I was like, the school never called my mother to say I wasn't in school.

[982] I never went to school.

[983] Why this day?

[984] Yes.

[985] Oh, that's funny.

[986] She's like, well, she's on a school trip.

[987] They're like, there is no school trip.

[988] But again, here's the sprinkle of fairy dust, which is to meet a kid at Mount Washington, who you see actually went and started making a living at it.

[989] That's invaluable.

[990] Yeah, it is.

[991] You take those two people out of your sphere.

[992] It changes what you might think is possible.

[993] Oh, absolutely.

[994] And just having a friend like Pock at the time who was really constantly reminding me, like, he knew what I was doing.

[995] He didn't get on me about it, but he would always remind me, like, you really got that thing.

[996] Like, you could be a superstar.

[997] He wouldn't say that.

[998] He just would remind me, you can really do this.

[999] He understood, which is why he didn't go at me about it, but he would just remind me. And so even when I went to college, Pock was like, all right, now, keep your nose clean.

[1000] If you need anything, you call me. So the tide kind of turned a little bit between us where he was like, I got you.

[1001] You guys beautifully took turns.

[1002] Yeah, we flip -flopped a lot.

[1003] Yeah, yeah, that's really sweet.

[1004] This has no business in the interview, but I'm going to own it.

[1005] I like every other 18.

[1006] There's nothing unique about this.

[1007] Right.

[1008] But I was probably 18 when I saw Menace's Society.

[1009] Oh, okay.

[1010] How were you when you did it?

[1011] I was 20.

[1012] No, I might have been 20.

[1013] Okay, then I was even younger.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] So I like everyone else, fell so head over heels and loveled.

[1016] Oh, yes.

[1017] No, no. I was like, I didn't think they made humans that look like this.

[1018] Oh, wow.

[1019] So I'm reading the book kind of just selfishly in the back of my mind.

[1020] It's like, she doesn't seem to like white dudes.

[1021] Then John pops up.

[1022] John Cole.

[1023] I found my way into the story.

[1024] You know, I was feeling very left out of the story.

[1025] And I was like, okay, weird, goofy, tall John artist mushrooms.

[1026] I'm like, I could have played that role in high school.

[1027] So I was comforted by, I know he didn't go there all the way.

[1028] I was very comforted that there was a John in the mix.

[1029] Let me tell you, John.

[1030] And he's still a very good friend of mine until this day.

[1031] Was he from college?

[1032] The grade art school.

[1033] Yes, he was from.

[1034] Baltimore School for the Yars.

[1035] And he was also Tupac's best friend.

[1036] The three of them were a triumphant.

[1037] They'd do shrooms together and get artistic.

[1038] We were the three musketeers.

[1039] Oh, so fun.

[1040] It was actually Pock that I asked, I was like, I need you to get to know this guy, John.

[1041] I want to make sure he's not on no weirdo shit.

[1042] Sure.

[1043] You never know.

[1044] Exactly.

[1045] Never know.

[1046] Is he okay?

[1047] As a wingman, he then fell for him.

[1048] He was my wing man. Yeah.

[1049] Right?

[1050] And so then we all became so cool.

[1051] And then me and John started dating.

[1052] Anyways, it was a very encouraging part of the book.

[1053] Oh, Dax.

[1054] You know how you said people take different things from the book?

[1055] That's what Dax took from the book.

[1056] I'm as egocentric as anyone.

[1057] I'm reading this book like, how does this affect me?

[1058] He's like, John, that's where I am.

[1059] Get it, John, get it.

[1060] Okay, so you do a year at North Carolina and then you decide to go to L .A. All the other bullshit in Baltimore that's in the past, We're now going all in on acting.

[1061] And so you moved to L .A. And what probably felt long to you was very short.

[1062] As far as what?

[1063] Arrival and working.

[1064] Oh, no, it didn't feel long to me at all.

[1065] Oh, didn't.

[1066] Okay, good.

[1067] Oh, yeah, no, it felt very short.

[1068] It went very well for you.

[1069] It went really quickly.

[1070] I was eight years before I had an agent.

[1071] Yes.

[1072] See, I knew.

[1073] Let's trust me, I was very lucky when I came to Hollywood.

[1074] And the only reason why I got an agent is because I used Keenan's name.

[1075] That's right.

[1076] I was like, and I asked Keenan respectfully, I was like, can I use your name?

[1077] She had a girlfriend who was dating Keenan.

[1078] Ivory Wayans at the time, yeah.

[1079] Now there's another Keenan in the mix.

[1080] Thompson, yeah, that's right.

[1081] Oh, Kenan, yes.

[1082] Yeah, yeah.

[1083] So through her, you come to know Keenan.

[1084] Right.

[1085] And so he from the gate was like, this little wild child right here, you know what I mean?

[1086] Hood rat.

[1087] You probably look like a hood rat.

[1088] He just thought I was funny.

[1089] He thought I was very brazen and bold.

[1090] He liked that.

[1091] The first time I met him.

[1092] I was like, you need to make me a fly girl.

[1093] Right.

[1094] Because you were a dancer, man. I was a dancer.

[1095] Yeah.

[1096] So he was like, pause on all of that.

[1097] But we became friends and I said, so, Keenan, can I use your name to get an agent?

[1098] And the first person I call, Nancy Rainford, who had this small, tiny agency on Melrose, I call her and I go, hi, Miss Rainford.

[1099] My name is Jada.

[1100] And Keenan Ivory Wands told me that I should call you.

[1101] She said, Keene and Ivory Wands?

[1102] She said, he knows me?

[1103] I said, yes.

[1104] He said, you're very talented agent.

[1105] This is such a great technique.

[1106] She said, come see me now.

[1107] And so when I walk in the door, I see, she's a black woman.

[1108] I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. I was like, this is great.

[1109] And she also had Michael Rappaport.

[1110] So she had the two of us, and she helped us at the beginning of our careers.

[1111] Yeah, Rappaport would drive her around to auditions and stuff.

[1112] Michael was my home boy.

[1113] Me and Michael had such a good time together.

[1114] It was great.

[1115] The big pivotal thing then next is a different world.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] What's her name?

[1118] I've written it all done, but I'm not going to glance at that.

[1119] I've challenged myself not to look at the four pay Debbie Allen.

[1120] You're doing good, Dax.

[1121] Okay, thank you.

[1122] You're doing good.

[1123] Thank you.

[1124] I'm getting a A -minus so far on this final exam I've crammed for.

[1125] Debbie Allen, yeah.

[1126] She's inspirational.

[1127] This is the woman that I was looking up to.

[1128] Debbie Allen.

[1129] writes.

[1130] She's a producer.

[1131] She's an actress, dancer, choreographer, direct.

[1132] I mean, there's nothing the woman can't do.

[1133] And I'm like, I want to be that.

[1134] So I go to audition for a different world for a guest role.

[1135] And it's a college student who has contracted HIV.

[1136] After the audition, she's like, who are you?

[1137] Tell me a little something about yourself.

[1138] She's like, I want to know your story.

[1139] So I'm like, I'm from Baltimore.

[1140] I'm going to be the next Debbie Allen.

[1141] She cracked up.

[1142] So we had this whole long conversation.

[1143] She said, listen, I'm not going to give you this starring role, but I'm going to bring you on this show as a series regular.

[1144] What?

[1145] Yep.

[1146] That is.

[1147] Isn't that crazy?

[1148] And so then she created Lena James based on my story.

[1149] Wow.

[1150] So here's the freaky, suspicious part of the universe, which is it's almost like it insists on homeostasis.

[1151] So it's going to give you a bunch of bullshit.

[1152] But this is also going to give you these crazy.

[1153] crazy impossible streaks of luck both are impossible yes it's all impossible but it's just like the universe like oh we really kind of piled a bunch on her let's give her some of this this is great exactly it's always been this yeah so everything's happening and then i have to imagine it came as a great surprise to you that right at the peak of everything going way better than you could have ever imagined you have your first kind of i don't know what we'd even call it a panic attack i think it's a nervous break down a nervous break now I really do.

[1154] And it came out of nowhere.

[1155] I'm not ready for this.

[1156] I have it for sidebar.

[1157] Yeah.

[1158] Vivians.

[1159] Vivians.

[1160] Vivians.

[1161] Vivians.

[1162] When I met Kristen, she lived right above Vivians and we ate breakfast there every morning for three years.

[1163] We just missed you because you had just.

[1164] Yes.

[1165] I lived right up the street on Fredonia.

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] Okay.

[1168] When I read Vivians, I was like, oh, this is fantastic.

[1169] Yes.

[1170] And I used to eat there all the time.

[1171] Life is good.

[1172] your own place.

[1173] You're eating at Vivians.

[1174] Yes.

[1175] Oh, boy.

[1176] You stopped panic attack for Vivians.

[1177] Because things shouldn't have a, we shouldn't have a nervous break now.

[1178] Exactly.

[1179] And Vivians was a really special spot.

[1180] People who rolled at Vivians during that era.

[1181] Yeah.

[1182] I turned to Kristen when I was reading that part and I go, you know, Jada ate it.

[1183] Vivians all time.

[1184] And she said, did she eat the KB special?

[1185] I'm like, girl, I don't think the KB special was there.

[1186] Yeah, it wasn't.

[1187] She had a breakfast a sandwich named after her.

[1188] That's her claim to fame.

[1189] Yeah.

[1190] Better than a Hollywood star.

[1191] But I do bring that up just totally frivolously.

[1192] The point I'm making is everything can be going its best.

[1193] But the stuff that you've not dealt with that has piled up, it doesn't really give a fuck.

[1194] You think that's the lie.

[1195] I get all this stuff.

[1196] I'm going to fix all this stuff I've been ignoring.

[1197] That's exactly what I thought.

[1198] I had so much energy to become a star.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] You're feeling like real autonomy.

[1201] Yeah.

[1202] I'm in charge.

[1203] And then I get it.

[1204] I'm in the game.

[1205] I've done a different world.

[1206] I'm doing movies.

[1207] And I'm not happy.

[1208] It was the most painful existential disappointment because it's that idea of thinking, once I made it, all my problems would be solved.

[1209] You know, I had the very exact same experience.

[1210] After eight years of struggling, I get punked, it's a hit.

[1211] Then I go straight in this movie without a paddle.

[1212] That's a hit.

[1213] Then I go straight into a Mike Judge movie.

[1214] Then I'm about to start this movie, Zathura.

[1215] I'm getting paid a fortune.

[1216] I go to Hawaii.

[1217] Why?

[1218] I smoke meth for five days.

[1219] I get in a car accident.

[1220] The cops are involved.

[1221] I'm trying to fly home.

[1222] I'm so sick.

[1223] I don't think I can get back to L .A. I have a layover in San Francisco.

[1224] I'm at this bar drinking Jack and I. It's like as many as I can just to get on the flight.

[1225] I think other people are going to see me. And there is the proverbial mirror, like right in front of my face.

[1226] And I'm like, wow, man, we got everything we want.

[1227] And people recognize you.

[1228] You got more money than you thought you'd ever have.

[1229] And I think I want to die for real.

[1230] I'm so glad you shared that story with me because that's the first time anybody's ever said that because I've still to this day I'm like, what happened, you know?

[1231] And now it's really scary because you got all the stuff so you know there's no more shit to get.

[1232] There's no more shit to get.

[1233] Now I'm really hopeless.

[1234] Before if I was a star, I'd feel good.

[1235] Before, if I had money, I'd feel good.

[1236] If I had this girl, I'd feel good.

[1237] But now we've got all of it.

[1238] And it's scary.

[1239] It crashed on me. In one second, I'm shaking.

[1240] I'm like this oceanic amount of emotion that I don't even know where it's coming from.

[1241] Yeah, because you've been ignoring it.

[1242] I've been ignoring it.

[1243] And I don't even...

[1244] Right, it's not here.

[1245] Right.

[1246] The moon's out.

[1247] Exactly.

[1248] And this overwhelming feeling of like, I want to die.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] I want out.

[1251] Because now I know this is my destiny because there's nothing more to throw at this.

[1252] I, by the grace of God, make it home to Ferdonia.

[1253] and I call my mother and I tell her.

[1254] I said, you got to come out here right now.

[1255] I'm going to kill myself.

[1256] She couldn't, she had to figure out her work situation.

[1257] So then I was like, Light, I need you.

[1258] MC Light, very good friend of mine.

[1259] I called her because I was like, I cannot be alone.

[1260] I do not trust myself alone.

[1261] Please come here and stay with me. And she was on the first plane smoking.

[1262] Really quick.

[1263] How hard is that for you to do?

[1264] To ask for help.

[1265] Yeah, to be vulnerable.

[1266] It's really hard for me to do.

[1267] I don't ask for help, usually.

[1268] Unless you're about to die.

[1269] That's how I knew.

[1270] I was in a bad way.

[1271] That was a day because I knew if somebody didn't get out there to me right away.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] I don't know about you, but for me at that time, nobody was talking about mental health.

[1274] No. I can imagine what it's like for you as a man. And then for me as a black woman, the first thing people say is like, oh, you must be crazy.

[1275] We got to put you in.

[1276] And that's what I thought.

[1277] I was like, this is a straight jacket moment.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] Something's really wrong with me. Right.

[1280] Because I had no idea that it's some shit we got to deal with, but you're okay.

[1281] There's some folks that actually study this.

[1282] Yeah, and you're going to be okay.

[1283] But at 21 years old, during a time where mental health was considered a white people thing.

[1284] Sure.

[1285] Suicide was like, white people do that.

[1286] Yes, white people go to therapy.

[1287] White people go to therapy.

[1288] White people kill themselves.

[1289] There's a bizarre sense that it's privileged to do that.

[1290] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1291] Which is crazy.

[1292] And it's all false.

[1293] It's all wrong.

[1294] But at that time, I felt shame.

[1295] I felt I got to hide this.

[1296] We're going right back to Tony.

[1297] Who on earth can love this thing?

[1298] Exactly.

[1299] That was probably yet another deep, dark moment of just feeling completely and utterly unlovable.

[1300] It confirms what the shadow's been telling you the whole time.

[1301] Exactly.

[1302] You're not lovable.

[1303] You're not lovable.

[1304] You're hot.

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] You're not going to be loved.

[1307] No. So, yeah, I went on that journey.

[1308] My mom came out and then I called Debbie.

[1309] Here you go.

[1310] And she called the doctor and Sally Gregg helped me get.

[1311] to where I needed to be for that time.

[1312] And you went on Prozac.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] Now, here's something that really popped out at me. Again, I'm projecting, as I always do.

[1315] But there's an interesting line in there, and I wrote it down.

[1316] It was saying, like, you go on Prozac, you feel some relief.

[1317] Yeah.

[1318] It's working.

[1319] But you're immediately like, I don't like what it's doing to my libido.

[1320] Yes.

[1321] That's common for antidepressants.

[1322] It is, but I had this thought while I was reading it.

[1323] Like, we all know.

[1324] That's a thing that you hear.

[1325] But for the first time I had this.

[1326] thought, which is like, I'm sure there's some biomechanical things that actually do have an effect on it.

[1327] But also really curious to ask is, did you not need relief as much?

[1328] Interesting.

[1329] Drinking's relief.

[1330] Sex is relief.

[1331] When you're feeling okay and you don't need relief, how much of your sexual appetite is about the sexual appetite and how much of about it is just, I need some relief.

[1332] I need to go into a space for an hour where I don't care about anything else.

[1333] I didn't think about that.

[1334] And I feel valued and I feel loved and I feel all these things.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] It's interesting.

[1337] Again, I'm sure there's a biochemical aspect, but I also think not needing the relief as part of it.

[1338] That's very interesting because later on also, I would recognize certain addictions I had around sexual energy and how I used sex.

[1339] Another arousal, another like, release, heightened state.

[1340] open.

[1341] It's the greatest thing on planet Earth.

[1342] It is.

[1343] We're getting real.

[1344] I've done all the drugs.

[1345] Yeah, it is exactly.

[1346] I've had a few nights had nothing compared to that.

[1347] Exactly.

[1348] Yeah.

[1349] It's powerful.

[1350] And you can escape.

[1351] And I was just talking to Will about this this morning fucking driving here.

[1352] No kidding.

[1353] Yes.

[1354] Just about all of these things that you recognize around that area.

[1355] I had a couple weird moments.

[1356] If I could do my sexual inventory for you.

[1357] One was I was dating a gal who had so much more status than me. She had more money.

[1358] She had more status.

[1359] She had everything.

[1360] I felt very less than in this relationship.

[1361] And I felt very emasculated.

[1362] And we had a fight on the phone.

[1363] I'm going to add, too, prior to that, I had been with a girl for nine years and we had an open relationship.

[1364] Right.

[1365] This girl was the first one.

[1366] She's like, that's not for me. You're going to be monogamous or I'm not going to be with you.

[1367] And I was being monogamous for really the first time in a decade.

[1368] And we got in this fight on the phone.

[1369] and when we hung up, I immediately, immediately was, like, horny.

[1370] I was going to call Kelly.

[1371] Kelly Irvine.

[1372] That's who she was in my phone.

[1373] I was going to call Kelly.

[1374] I knew I could swing by Kelly.

[1375] Maybe we'll beat that out for Kelly's saying.

[1376] Oh, oh.

[1377] She's from Irvine.

[1378] Oh, oh, my God.

[1379] Oh, my God.

[1380] So, like, I hang up.

[1381] It was an emasculating less than.

[1382] I feel shitty.

[1383] Within seconds, I have this surge of horniness.

[1384] And I'm like, it's too much.

[1385] We're calling Kelly.

[1386] And I like, get my phone out.

[1387] I'm driving.

[1388] I'm starting the text.

[1389] And I don't know why for the first time of my life.

[1390] I had this clarity that I was like, well, that was a weird reaction to being in a fight and feeling shitty.

[1391] Could my brain be so good that it knows you are hurting right now.

[1392] And I know how to make you not hurt.

[1393] And I know how to make you feel powerful.

[1394] And I know how to make you feel not emasculated.

[1395] It's Kelly from Irvine.

[1396] Let's get her on the phone.

[1397] And I was like, whoa.

[1398] This is deeper.

[1399] than I could have ever imagined.

[1400] My brain knows to do that without me being involved and asked me in real horniness, visceral horniness.

[1401] Isn't that crazy?

[1402] Yes.

[1403] And I was like, oh yeah, this brain's trying to protect me at all times from feeling shitty and it has a lot of tools at its disposal.

[1404] That it will use, that we're not even freaking aware of.

[1405] But that was me in my 20s.

[1406] You even talk about it in the book.

[1407] You like the dude you like, then there's a dude you call out 11.

[1408] That's going to be a whole other experience.

[1409] Right.

[1410] When I'm bored, That's a get -high partner.

[1411] That exact feeling.

[1412] I'm not feeling good.

[1413] I'm going to call freaking Bobby Irvine for me having to do that same kind of inventory and figuring that out.

[1414] Did you have love addiction at all, too?

[1415] Or was it mainly in sex?

[1416] I don't think so.

[1417] From your book, it doesn't feel like it.

[1418] You didn't live in fantasy.

[1419] I'm not really that.

[1420] More like, let's get in the bubble for an hour.

[1421] Yeah, let's get in the bubble and forget everything.

[1422] All the things we hate about ourselves.

[1423] That's me. And then alcohol is not your friend either by this point.

[1424] You're starting to recognize that.

[1425] Oh, yeah.

[1426] Alcohol really isn't my friend at all.

[1427] And then we meet Will.

[1428] Yeah, the Savior Prince.

[1429] Yes, yes.

[1430] Because my new Prozac.

[1431] Yes.

[1432] So you stop taking Prozac.

[1433] I stopped taking Prozac because the Savior Prince came in.

[1434] Yeah, and what a good one you picked.

[1435] Yeah.

[1436] Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

[1437] If you dare.

[1438] I got to say side note to everything.

[1439] I don't know if you just protected them or it's just who he is.

[1440] But reading this book made me like him so much.

[1441] I don't know him.

[1442] I've never met him.

[1443] But I'm like, I really like this guy.

[1444] I also find myself somewhere in this spectrum between the two of you.

[1445] Because I'll tell you what feels very familiar is the courtship between you two.

[1446] And what glimpses you give me into the relationship is very similar to Kristen and I. Right.

[1447] Because it's universal.

[1448] But I think he and I have a similar thing, which is, I don't really care what mood you're in.

[1449] I've got enough jokes for you.

[1450] Oh, God, Dax, no. Yeah, I'm going to tease you and figure out the thing.

[1451] And we are going to, listen, we're both walking out of this room.

[1452] You will be laughing.

[1453] I don't really care how long that takes because I'm here to do it.

[1454] Oh, God.

[1455] Does it drive her crazy?

[1456] She likes it, I think.

[1457] I don't know.

[1458] Monica's observed it a lot.

[1459] I don't like it.

[1460] I'll say that.

[1461] Well's that?

[1462] He's getting better at it, though.

[1463] He's getting better.

[1464] He's getting more grounded where he goes, okay, this is serious talk time.

[1465] Well, I would imagine, I've never met him, psychoanalyze him from afar.

[1466] For me, when people are upset, dangers around the corner.

[1467] I can't have it.

[1468] If mom's upset, we're about to marry a new guy, we're about to move to a new town.

[1469] I got all the tools to regulate you so that I don't end up in a situation I don't want to be in.

[1470] And that's him.

[1471] Okay, yeah.

[1472] Upset, anything negative.

[1473] me to be around someone that I'm afraid is going to make a crazy decision because they're emotional.

[1474] That's him.

[1475] We'll get to the end of the book at some point.

[1476] How old was that when I met Will?

[1477] Willow's age.

[1478] My daughter.

[1479] Isn't that nuts?

[1480] That's another thing right when you write a book like this.

[1481] You start getting real about how old you were in all these situations.

[1482] I'm looking at Willow like, what the fuck?

[1483] You were making a permanent life decision?

[1484] It was like a 23.

[1485] Willow's a baby.

[1486] In two years, if she came to me and she's like, I'm about to marry.

[1487] of this guy.

[1488] He has a child.

[1489] He flew me to Jamaica.

[1490] And he's fresh out of a marriage.

[1491] And I'm pregnant and we're going to get married.

[1492] I'd be like, what?

[1493] Yeah.

[1494] I'm going to put a divorce attorney on retainer now.

[1495] I'm like, no, you're not going to do that.

[1496] Yeah.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] I thought I was so old all the time.

[1499] Oh my God.

[1500] Yes.

[1501] That's what actually, I don't know if you've had this too, but that's what really kind of brought my childhood trauma into focus is like seeing my kids get to these age where I already know this happened.

[1502] And in my mind, I was big enough for all that.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] But I look at these little girls and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you're not big enough for that.

[1505] You don't think about that.

[1506] No, I think I'm 30 my whole childhood.

[1507] Yeah, we had to.

[1508] But it's bullshit.

[1509] I look at these little people and it's like, no, no one can be there.

[1510] Yeah, no. I still have a hard time seeing the little Jada that had to deal with all of that.

[1511] How about when Willow was 13 and you imagine she would have crossed Baltimore to go to 7 -11?

[1512] about our daughters, I thought that's where you were going to go throughout this whole book.

[1513] I'm thinking about Willow at every stage of my life.

[1514] That's the only way that I can make sense of when people are like, you shouldn't have been going through that at that age.

[1515] And I go, let me put Willow in that.

[1516] And I go, you know what?

[1517] You're right.

[1518] Yes.

[1519] And I don't know what your conclusion about that is.

[1520] But if I am to admit, I shouldn't have been in that situation or I wasn't big enough to it, I have to admit I was vulnerable.

[1521] and I have to admit I'm not indomitable.

[1522] And if you know I'm not indomitable, then I'm at risk now.

[1523] Because I need you to think, move to someone else.

[1524] I'm still trying to grapple with that fact just in myself.

[1525] I don't want myself to believe that.

[1526] Yeah, right.

[1527] It's too scary.

[1528] It's too scary.

[1529] I'm like, no. You keep having these panther analogies in your book.

[1530] Yeah.

[1531] And it's really, really funny because my therapist over the last couple years who have fallen so hard for it, he has this thing he's told me. And he's like, listen, here's what we're trying to get to.

[1532] You're in a room, the panther enters.

[1533] And you just look at the panther.

[1534] Make eye contact with the panther.

[1535] But you're not going to try to scare the panther away because the panther wants to fucking eat you.

[1536] And you're not going to run from the panther because he's going to eat you.

[1537] You're just going to look at the panther in the eyes and let it walk around you.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] And I'm like, oh my God, that is the solution, isn't it?

[1540] Because I only feel safe if I'm dominating you or I'm going to, getting the fuck out of there.

[1541] But I need to trust that I can just look at you.

[1542] I'm safe.

[1543] It's so hard for me to get to.

[1544] I have to constantly tell myself that I'm safe, but I love the panther in the room.

[1545] That's good, right?

[1546] That's a good one.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] So the Will Prozac works for a long time.

[1549] Yeah.

[1550] You have a good ride and your career works as well.

[1551] That's probably another good Prozac.

[1552] For a while.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] And then coming up on 40, it just completely stops working all over again.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] It was wearing off for many years and me not having a solution in poor will, just pulling at him to be this thing.

[1557] Once I hit that wall at 40, and I was like, I want to, you know, I'm driving, looking for cliffs.

[1558] I can't commit suicide in a way that my kids will know that it's suicide.

[1559] So I'm on my honing, looking for cliffs, and then I remember Big Sur.

[1560] And I was like, cool, got it.

[1561] I'm not making it out of that.

[1562] And so I had my plan.

[1563] And then by the grace of God, my son, Jaden, comes into the kitchen one morning.

[1564] It says, you got to come in the living room and hear Moises and Mateo tell the story about their dad and their father had gone to Peru.

[1565] There's another bolt of lightning coming your way.

[1566] Yes, exactly.

[1567] What are the odds of this conversation happening in your kitchen?

[1568] Kitchen.

[1569] They brought it to me, ayahuasca, and I'm not.

[1570] listening.

[1571] And I'm like, what?

[1572] I'm like, where's your father?

[1573] How soon can he come here?

[1574] Yeah.

[1575] And so he comes and he tells me his whole experience and I'm looking at him and he's so different.

[1576] He's got this bright light.

[1577] He's just shiny.

[1578] It was undeniable to you.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] I said, I need that.

[1581] And the universe within a month opened that door for me. And I was in Ohio.

[1582] But hardcore version.

[1583] I didn't even know this version existed.

[1584] This is scheduled for a three.

[1585] Three -day experience.

[1586] Turns in the four.

[1587] Oopsies.

[1588] Turns in the four because the third night, I come across that cycle of deep self -hatred.

[1589] And I think I'm possessed.

[1590] I don't even recognize.

[1591] No, no, no. These are your thoughts.

[1592] This is you.

[1593] This is how you think about yourself.

[1594] There is no one here, baby girl.

[1595] This is you.

[1596] I tell her, I'm like, I can't go home to my kids with this.

[1597] Whatever is on me, I need another night.

[1598] She's like, no problem.

[1599] And I stay there with her.

[1600] I stay up all day because I can't sleep.

[1601] I'm terrified.

[1602] I don't want to even close my eyes.

[1603] For sure.

[1604] Go back in that night, rough beginning, and finally surrender.

[1605] Just look at the panther in the room.

[1606] No reaction.

[1607] Just be still.

[1608] Stop running.

[1609] Yes.

[1610] And just be with it.

[1611] And then all of it just passes.

[1612] All of it is just a movie.

[1613] It's okay.

[1614] Let it go.

[1615] it's not personal.

[1616] Just witness it.

[1617] You can handle it.

[1618] Yeah.

[1619] We just had this very profound moment with, I don't know if you have ever heard of Gabor Mote.

[1620] Oh yeah.

[1621] He's so special.

[1622] Yeah.

[1623] Somebody else was just talking about him.

[1624] There was the most beautiful moment between he and Monica on the show.

[1625] Yeah, about accepting worthiness and just sitting and feeling.

[1626] Yes.

[1627] It's incredibly hard.

[1628] And you don't even know you're doing it.

[1629] He asked me so many times he was like, how do you feel?

[1630] And I was like, well, I think, blah, blah.

[1631] And he's like, no, no, that's what you think.

[1632] Right.

[1633] How do you feel?

[1634] feel and it took me six times i got it wrong six times before i could be like sad and she's an all like students so it's brutal yeah i hate it she got wrong that's the most it wrongs she's ever got in a row but it's amazing how we can't identify feelings it takes a minute right yeah and what he pointed out is when she finally goes sad yeah and he goes you know if we were filming this right now and i played it back to you what would we see she goes i smiled yeah so what's funny about that yeah you think you'll be rejected if you're sad you're not allowed to be sad that's true yeah oh we were all crying yeah we all went down we all went down but it's that moment it's just like sitting with it it's the hardest part it's crazy too how you can know like you could have taught that oh yeah 100 % you can know it intellectually you could have told someone else that's not feeling that's not, but we completely unaware that you, yourself, heart.

[1635] That's right.

[1636] It's tricky business.

[1637] It's really tricky.

[1638] This life.

[1639] All of it.

[1640] It's tricky.

[1641] It's tricky business.

[1642] You know what I mean, but that's the whole part of just becoming more conscious as we go along and just that idea of self -inventory.

[1643] And that's one of the things that I like about plant medicine, even though I wouldn't recommend it for just anybody.

[1644] It's not for everybody.

[1645] It's not for a nightclub.

[1646] No. It's specifically not ayahuasca.

[1647] But the level of self -inventory that I get to do when I am in ceremony is beyond.

[1648] It's hours of that moment between.

[1649] Absolutely.

[1650] It's very intriguing.

[1651] I was also thinking the irony, what you're struggling with at this point, this is a huge relief, obviously.

[1652] This is the light at the end of the tunnel.

[1653] You're not standing in the sunshine yet after your 40th birthday.

[1654] No, no, no. But I'm assuming hope has entered your life.

[1655] I've never had a suicidal thought after those four nights.

[1656] Right.

[1657] Right.

[1658] And you've done multiple.

[1659] Multiple, multiple follow -ups.

[1660] Yeah, multiple follow -ups.

[1661] And I didn't realize what also became very helpful was fucking trauma therapy.

[1662] Yeah.

[1663] Do you do EMDR?

[1664] I haven't done EMDR yet, but that's my next.

[1665] Yeah.

[1666] Kristen just had crazy results with it.

[1667] Did she?

[1668] In like six sessions.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] I'm looking for a really great practitioner.

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] I'll get the gal that Kristen uses.

[1673] That'd be great.

[1674] That'd be great.

[1675] Oh, that's beautiful.

[1676] I have a trauma therapist.

[1677] I've done some MDMA therapy sessions, which have been really good.

[1678] But that's the next move for me. So now here's the other parallels.

[1679] So I've got like the childhood parallels.

[1680] But then I have the kind of professional parallels you and I have in a very public relationship.

[1681] Aspirational relationship for some people.

[1682] Yes, on a pedestal.

[1683] Mm -hmm.

[1684] It's just like, yeah.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] And then dipping our toe into this.

[1687] weird water almost the timing's identical like you start doing red table virtually the same time we start doing this oh wow okay both meteoric fucking crazy rides right and you're playing this very tricky game i feel it intensely which is i want to let you in on a lot of stuff i also need some piece of myself that's not for you i don't know where that line is always i would compare the will episode with my day seven episode, I after some time on you had to come out and say, I don't have 16 years of sobriety.

[1688] I relapsed.

[1689] I remember that, which was very brave, Dax.

[1690] Well, thank you.

[1691] And I think I have the same compulsion you did, which is, A, I'm so grateful for the love that's been showed in me this whole ride.

[1692] We have an agreement, and I can't violate it.

[1693] You all gave me this thing, and here's the agreement, and I can't really leave myself out of it.

[1694] I can't have people come in here and make them do day seven.

[1695] There you go.

[1696] And so you kind of get yourself into this situation.

[1697] I think mine works out a bit better for me than yours, which I'm very sad.

[1698] Because if anything, I was more culpable in my situation.

[1699] But I feel grateful.

[1700] I don't really know any of that.

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] I don't either, to be honest.

[1703] I don't know any of that.

[1704] We think everyone does everything.

[1705] Full disclosure.

[1706] I watched the Chris stand -up thing.

[1707] Right.

[1708] And I was like, I've always appreciated his perspective.

[1709] I have always thought he was so smart and two steps ahead.

[1710] And I was like, I'm so excited to hear how he processed that whole thing.

[1711] And I was pretty bummed with the outcome.

[1712] And in that thing, I'm now learning about stuff that I didn't know.

[1713] In my ignorance, my only real knowledge of it is what I saw on a stand -up special.

[1714] So now when I'm seeing the real situation you're in, I'm so much more empathetic to it.

[1715] And what an impossible situation.

[1716] So for other people probably wouldn't know, it was like, at this point, you and Will, have been like, hey, we got this great thing.

[1717] We got this family.

[1718] We got these businesses.

[1719] There's another backstory thing about you going, we're not doing a pre -nup because I'm never going to divorce you.

[1720] Right.

[1721] There's a lot driving this.

[1722] By the way, I so understand this.

[1723] I also understand that position you're in.

[1724] I know what it's like to have a shared identity in the world.

[1725] It's very curious.

[1726] Yeah.

[1727] I haven't been at that point so far, but I have had the thoughts of, well, how would you get out of this if you ever had to.

[1728] I know who America's siding with.

[1729] Kristen Bell.

[1730] Exactly.

[1731] No matter what would happen.

[1732] I know who's getting left by the wayside in this.

[1733] It's just a very interesting thing to have also involved in a relationship.

[1734] And it's a hard line to walk.

[1735] So that was such a complicated moment.

[1736] Oh, my God.

[1737] You know?

[1738] And Will wasn't supposed to be there in the first place.

[1739] That's number one.

[1740] I didn't ask him to come.

[1741] I didn't want him to come.

[1742] but he wanted to be there for this episode for this episode where she's going to talk about she had had an entanglement they've already decided years before like hey let's just keep this family and this unit together but let's just have our separate lives yeah yeah 2016 we separated yeah tough time for me defaulting in some of those I'm going to grab onto things so I don't have to deal with this yeah I need a little relief I need a little relief and so that's my entanglement and when this person decided to speak out about it.

[1743] Now, mind you, Will and I are still separated.

[1744] We're not together.

[1745] We're a family.

[1746] We're friends, but we're not together.

[1747] Will's like, I don't want you to go through this by yourself.

[1748] I'm like, wow.

[1749] Here's the menschiness.

[1750] This is sweet, you know, and I'm like, okay, we get to the table and I see Will, he's not ready.

[1751] No one's really ready.

[1752] Yeah.

[1753] He's late.

[1754] We're about to be going to Jaden's birthday.

[1755] Really quick.

[1756] Did you just feel, I can imagine my spidey sense is going like if we're going to do something like this this is not the start but that thing in me that's just like go right the worst action is in action we're also on a time crunch people are writing stuff and talking about it and you kind of feel like well yeah and for me kind of like you dax i'm like i can't bring people to this and i was ready so it's two things happening I was ready to dismantle whatever fantasy and just keep it...

[1757] Right, just keep it real.

[1758] That's what this is about.

[1759] And I didn't have shame about my experience.

[1760] I was like, I'm not going to be emotionally blackmailed by somebody.

[1761] Yeah.

[1762] Time to face the music.

[1763] I'm ready to be past this.

[1764] And I'm not going to hang my head low because I didn't do anything wrong.

[1765] Yeah, exactly.

[1766] You didn't violate anyone's trust.

[1767] I didn't violate anybody's trust.

[1768] No. No. But when I saw Will, then another thing kicked in.

[1769] My codependency kicked in.

[1770] And I think I feel bad for him in this situation.

[1771] But again, it's what I brought up at the beginning, overarching these forces of masculinity.

[1772] Right.

[1773] There's this crazy thing that has to occur to him the moment it's happening.

[1774] And it's like primal and it's hardwired and it's, ooh, I'm being cuckled.

[1775] I'm losing my masculinity right now.

[1776] because they're not going to understand that I didn't really.

[1777] I mean, I don't know.

[1778] I hate to make excuses for him, but I can see the powers at play.

[1779] It's unfortunate for everybody.

[1780] Yeah, for everybody involved.

[1781] Yes, everyone's losing in that moment.

[1782] Everybody's losing, right?

[1783] There's no great outcome.

[1784] And I said, you know what, I'll take it.

[1785] I know.

[1786] You just decide to be, okay, I'll be the martyr.

[1787] I'll just do it.

[1788] He doesn't play it necessarily like they had been separated.

[1789] He wasn't ready to fully go there.

[1790] He wasn't ready to fully say that we weren't together.

[1791] Right, to own the situation.

[1792] And I understood that.

[1793] And I felt like, this is my shit.

[1794] I'll take the hit.

[1795] I'm not going to be in any kind of like disagreement with Will.

[1796] I'm not going to be in a beef with Will.

[1797] I will take that hit any day right or wrong.

[1798] That's just who I am.

[1799] He wasn't ready.

[1800] I was.

[1801] I wasn't going backpedal on my shit.

[1802] This is my shit.

[1803] I'll fucking take the hit.

[1804] It's okay.

[1805] Yeah.

[1806] right after was it like not worth it after the fact though well i tell you what i needed that moment for a lot of different reasons like you need to do a tone i needed that moment to see the dynamic at that table uh like it was very revealing it was very revealing to me about me the codependency yeah i was like you know what jada i understand you wanting to take care of other people but i realized in that moment i said this is your issue.

[1807] You make these choices that I'm going to love you and I'm going to leave myself on the side of the road or I'm going to love myself and leave you on the side of the road.

[1808] Right.

[1809] Those are the options I had.

[1810] Binary.

[1811] Yeah.

[1812] At that moment, I wasn't going to leave Will at the side of the road, but I'd left myself at the side of the road big fucking time.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] Right?

[1815] That's when my journey really took off.

[1816] Isn't that wild?

[1817] And I would not have been able to see it.

[1818] And I still wouldn't have been able to see it if I, I didn't have people around me that loved me that were so upset that I had made that decision.

[1819] People around me were fucking beside themselves.

[1820] Yes.

[1821] And that's when I realized you've got an issue here.

[1822] My choices were just so imbalanced.

[1823] You don't have to leave anybody on the side of the road.

[1824] Right.

[1825] Nobody has to take the fall.

[1826] And so part of me writing this book is part of that curriculum of you don't need to leave anybody on the side of the road.

[1827] You can be honest.

[1828] you can be loving, and everybody can travel the road together.

[1829] And so me learning how to love myself and love others at the same time and finding that balance.

[1830] And in that time, I just didn't know how to do that.

[1831] I just fell into my default of, I will take care of you by any means necessary.

[1832] Let's add your value proposition in your mind at that point is your loyalty.

[1833] and your ride or dyness.

[1834] Yes.

[1835] And you're actually not lovable for any other reason other than that.

[1836] Than that.

[1837] All I got.

[1838] So if you take away ride or die.

[1839] I'm fucking useless.

[1840] You're an aging beauty queen.

[1841] You know what I mean?

[1842] It's like, and I have prided myself on being the most hardcore ride or die.

[1843] Yes, I have the same value proposition, right?

[1844] But here's what I've talked about this before is I started noticing I required that at the people in my life.

[1845] Because guess what?

[1846] My life was pretty messy and I needed right or die people.

[1847] As my actions got better and I had more self -esteem, actually, that's not the number one quality I want in a friend.

[1848] I want maybe intelligence or I want good time, yes.

[1849] But it used to be, yeah, this dude with no teeth and a limp and a hook, yeah, that's my boy, he will kill for me. It's like, okay, that's the most important thing.

[1850] I know.

[1851] And it's just, it's a reflection for me of how much I think I couldn't be loved unless I had that loyalty.

[1852] There you go.

[1853] Because that's what I recognized as love.

[1854] Because they won't leave you.

[1855] I mean, it all goes back to the original thing.

[1856] Loyalty means you won't be left.

[1857] That you won't be left.

[1858] And so loyalty is great.

[1859] It is.

[1860] It is.

[1861] It is.

[1862] But learning how to be loyal in a healthy way.

[1863] And that's what I'm trying to learn to do.

[1864] And by the way, the story burbles up throughout the entire book to be loyal at a cost of yourself.

[1865] isn't really loyalty.

[1866] The person that would ask that of you, you had the friend who wanted you to lie about an alibi to him.

[1867] And Keenan was like, that's not a friend.

[1868] A friend doesn't ask you to get yourself in legal trouble when you don't have any.

[1869] But we can't see that.

[1870] Right.

[1871] I couldn't see that at the time.

[1872] If it wasn't for Keenan to be so hardcore, like you will go to jail.

[1873] And it was the same thing after that entanglement table.

[1874] How fucking could you?

[1875] It's a lie that is not true.

[1876] People are going to hate you.

[1877] And I'm like, I don't give a fuck about people.

[1878] And that's part of the problem.

[1879] I really don't care much about public opinion.

[1880] But what I do care about is the people around me that love me and how they're affected by my actions.

[1881] Yeah, they wanted better for you.

[1882] They wanted better for you.

[1883] That's heartbreaking.

[1884] And that's when I realized, I don't want to hurt people like this who love me. Yeah.

[1885] It's a wild event you went through.

[1886] I know.

[1887] I know.

[1888] It's a wild event that I'm still going through.

[1889] Yeah.

[1890] A lot of them.

[1891] Yeah.

[1892] I've gone through a lot of.

[1893] wild events.

[1894] But you know, I look to God and I go, you must really love me because you are getting me all the way together as far as learning how to have an open heart in hell.

[1895] Ram Dass said it best.

[1896] Just learning how to have an open heart in hell.

[1897] And all of this chaos that I've been in and all of this misunderstanding, man, has it been a purifier in so many ways?

[1898] I've had so many beautiful, valuable lessons that I wouldn't have been able to have without all.

[1899] of this.

[1900] Now, I'm hoping that after I write this book and I do this tour, when I tell you I'm falling back, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1901] I will probably go somewhere far and disappear for a very long time.

[1902] I need some peace.

[1903] You earned it.

[1904] Yeah, I need some peace, but I'm grateful.

[1905] Similarly, I'm writing a memoir, and my hope is that I would never want to dishonor all the memories by letting them go.

[1906] But I'm hopeful that if I write them down and I no longer have the fear that I'll lose them, that I can let them go.

[1907] Yeah.

[1908] Like I want to put it in a book and I want to go, here it is.

[1909] Now you're free to not carry that.

[1910] It's not gone.

[1911] It exists.

[1912] But I'd like to free up some memory here to run some new programs.

[1913] That's me. I've been carrying a lot.

[1914] Well, by the way, that's where you were in the tricky stitch that I find myself in is you were damn near as honest as a human can be in public but even if there's a little tiny secret yeah it'll find its way to come wreak havoc you were like 98 % of the way there's just this one little piece like hey by the way we're cool but we've been separated for six years yeah we're hanging on this little tiny piece and then holy smokes look what that grew into it's wild it's wild life is a comedy it is a comedy yeah you just have to learn how to laugh at it all because at the end of the day it really is funny yeah yeah yeah you know it really does get funny.

[1915] Will and I can look at some stuff now and fucking crack up.

[1916] Yeah.

[1917] Yeah.

[1918] Look, I look at you guys and I'm like, they're fucking gangsters.

[1919] It's that simple.

[1920] Fuck all y 'all.

[1921] This is who we are.

[1922] This is who we are.

[1923] Everyone should be aspiring to have that.

[1924] So much of me doesn't want to bring it up because not to pat myself on the back, but when it all happened, when the slap happened, I was triggered in a lot, a lot of ways.

[1925] I actually had to do a couple therapy sessions about that.

[1926] So here's my baggage.

[1927] I watch my mom get beat in front of me yeah what always happened before getting beat was you insult her that's never happening on my watch yeah yeah yeah yeah and i don't know his story but i just know i was there i was like i can't say that i'm not doing the same you know yeah in fact my therapy session was like i'm not gonna try to get you to not be that guy but can you do it in the parking lot yeah yeah yeah yeah and i'm like okay i think i can aspire to do it in the parking lot again i don't know will story i'm projecting.

[1928] There was such racism immediately.

[1929] Yeah.

[1930] If Leonardo Caprio smacks fucking Toby McGuire, we're not calling assault.

[1931] We're calling embarrassing.

[1932] I didn't like that.

[1933] But why I want to bring it up is what I hoped we would get to in Chris's synthesizing of that whole experience, I really didn't get and I was really bummed and I love him.

[1934] I have so much respect for him.

[1935] That's not what I expected from him.

[1936] Yours was when I read your account of it and I thought you beautifully never made an attempt to tell Will's story or Chris's story.

[1937] You're just like, here's my experience through it all.

[1938] And then what fucked me up was just, I'm walking out here with him.

[1939] Like, no matter what.

[1940] No matter what.

[1941] And that's where loyalty is fucking beautiful.

[1942] And you should hope that on your worst day, when you do your most regrettable thing, that someone grabs your hand and walks home with you, it's so fucking beautiful.

[1943] Yeah.

[1944] I was like, I didn't come in there as his wife, but I left.

[1945] Yeah, that's what killed me. Oh.

[1946] Even you're saying, like, when he said, keep my wife's name on your mouth, you're like, I haven't even heard him call me his wife in so long.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] That's a hard way to learn that last.

[1949] I know.

[1950] I was like, God damn.

[1951] That's a heavy price of entry, but what an experience you guys shared.

[1952] Yeah.

[1953] Fuck all the other stuff.

[1954] Yeah.

[1955] You want to talk about having been.

[1956] attested that loyalty that was it i just have to be honest that was the moment where i was like this my guy yeah i can't leave his side he's so lucky he's so lucky and you know what was so clear throughout the whole book and him going on red table he too yeah exactly there won't be a day there won't be a day you will die on this planet there'll not been a day he wasn't there that's right and that's what we know so all the judgment all the fucking bullshit you You should be so lucky to have that.

[1957] But that's why I can deal with all the judgment and the bullshit because...

[1958] You have a real thing.

[1959] I got a real deal.

[1960] Rad -a -da -da.

[1961] What, you needed your whole life.

[1962] You got it.

[1963] And it's not pretty.

[1964] No. It's not perfect.

[1965] You all are going to love this.

[1966] You're not going to like it.

[1967] You're not going to love it.

[1968] It's not going to look like, you know, your little...

[1969] Ozzie and Harriet.

[1970] Yeah.

[1971] You know, but guess what?

[1972] Here we are.

[1973] I do anything for it.

[1974] It's so powerful.

[1975] It's so powerful.

[1976] God.

[1977] I said, that Kristen, I don't know if you're going to read this book, but read that chapter.

[1978] Right.

[1979] I've fucking loved it.

[1980] I'm just so glad I had this opportunity to talk to you about it because, you know, it's in my heart.

[1981] Yeah, it's in your heart, you know?

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] And I don't know, like I said, I had a lot of like male stuff.

[1984] I excuse Chris, too.

[1985] You're also very gracious about Chris.

[1986] I excuse Chris.

[1987] Chris is a dude, too, that got emasculated.

[1988] Will got emasculated by and then he emasculated.

[1989] Then there's a cycle of fucking emasculation.

[1990] And they're both victims and I hate the whole thing.

[1991] and it breaks my heart.

[1992] No one, like, won a prize that day.

[1993] Everybody's always trying to find villains and stories, and there is none.

[1994] The villains were the people that fucking got their popcorn out and couldn't wait to start yapping about it.

[1995] And those people, by the way, those people have their own damage.

[1996] They're all, you know, we're all trying to figure it out.

[1997] I think one of my saving graces, and it was such a huge moment for me, When Chris came to the end of that stage and he looked me in my eyes and he said, I meant you no harm.

[1998] I held on to his look in his eyes.

[1999] That was the true Chris.

[2000] Yeah.

[2001] Not the Chris on Netflix.

[2002] I'm glad he gave you that.

[2003] Yeah, he gave me that.

[2004] You deserved it.

[2005] But I'm glad you had the moment.

[2006] And he was sincere.

[2007] I held that with me throughout everything.

[2008] And I understood.

[2009] I had a lot of compassion for his position.

[2010] And I understood.

[2011] I got it.

[2012] Her people hurt people.

[2013] That's just what it is.

[2014] Weirdly, it's not personal.

[2015] It's not personal.

[2016] That's his stuff.

[2017] That's my stuff.

[2018] It's your stuff.

[2019] It's real stuff.

[2020] And all our stuff crashed into each other, you know, but it's not personal.

[2021] I've spent time with Chris.

[2022] It's a good dude.

[2023] Oh, God.

[2024] Yeah, with his own story.

[2025] Yeah, with his own stuff.

[2026] And I have compassion for that too.

[2027] What a good example of how to go through life, you, how to go through life and handing out all this compassion.

[2028] It's impossible.

[2029] understanding it's not us them him me it's all of us it's all of us we're all just trying to figure this shit out yeah it's really special you did a fucking killer job good job telling your story i hope everyone reads it thank you yeah worthy worthy worthy worthy worthy lovable lovable we're all lovable worthy get jada's book it's gonna blow your mind i've left out 99 % of your story which is good when i was cramming for the exam i'm like how we fit in this into a day forget two hours Well I adore you Thanks so much for trusting us Absolutely I've been wanting to get us You know in front of each other Yeah we're in the same Yeah And I was like oh okay I'm gonna go to the armchair Well I'm at your disposal Whenever Thank you I appreciate All right I adore you Stay tuned for the facts check So you can hear all the facts that were wrong This is rare This is the rare the rairs.

[2030] It is.

[2031] We just recorded Jada.

[2032] We did.

[2033] This might comfort people because I do think often it's been a couple weeks since we, so we get to talking about clothes and Seinfeld episodes and stuff.

[2034] And then they're a little bit like, I can't believe they're not talking about that.

[2035] That was a big episode, but we're a little removed from it.

[2036] So this might actually be nice because we're very fresh off of Jada.

[2037] That's true.

[2038] First things up.

[2039] Yeah.

[2040] Was that your first time being taller in a pitcher?

[2041] Ooh.

[2042] I think you've been the same eye a couple times, but I don't think you, I don't think I've been taller.

[2043] And now you know, for a fact, and you can never say it again.

[2044] Well, no, all I know now is that she's 410.

[2045] No. No. She's 411, and I was taller than her.

[2046] You don't really think I think that, though, do you?

[2047] I don't know what you think sometimes.

[2048] I think it's fun to say you're 411.

[2049] Okay, so you know I'm 5 '1 inch.

[2050] Of course.

[2051] I mean, I know you're 5 foot.

[2052] I don't know if I go 5 and a half.

[2053] I believe that you're 5 .5.

[2054] Yeah.

[2055] And my wingspan is exactly my height.

[2056] It's perfectly, you've measured it.

[2057] I'm perfect, yeah.

[2058] Oh, my God.

[2059] Yes, so I was taller.

[2060] How'd it feel?

[2061] I actually didn't like it.

[2062] I would imagine you wanted.

[2063] Yeah, I felt like I was going to like...

[2064] Hurt her?

[2065] Well, welcome to my world.

[2066] Everyone is just vulnerable.

[2067] I got to watch where I step.

[2068] I flatten someone.

[2069] And if you step on their toe, it's like really bad.

[2070] We're joking about it, but I bet it is sincere because my issue, like, I don't like when guys are taller than me here on the show.

[2071] Not because of my van.

[2072] just because I'm like, this isn't feel right.

[2073] So abnormal and I'm like, ooh, something feels a little off.

[2074] Like, I can't get my arm around their shoulder.

[2075] They put it around mine.

[2076] I'm so used to, I go around the shoulder because I'm so tall.

[2077] Yeah, it kind of felt like with the kids or something.

[2078] You're posing with some kids.

[2079] But no, no, no, I don't want to say that.

[2080] Let's not say Jade as a kid.

[2081] She's, well, she's the opposite of a kid.

[2082] She's an incredibly evolved, powerful woman.

[2083] Full -blown woman.

[2084] Uh -huh.

[2085] That's why it's confusing.

[2086] I feel like people must, I hope they do things.

[2087] think that about me when they hug me. Like, oh, this is confusing.

[2088] Like, she's so small and fragile and her boobs are so big.

[2089] And so powerful.

[2090] But she's also so powerful.

[2091] Right.

[2092] Although the boobs work in concert with that, if we're talking about your boobs now.

[2093] So.

[2094] I just wanted to throw that in.

[2095] Sure, sure.

[2096] I would love to see, I guess I've of course seen photos of them.

[2097] That's all I could think.

[2098] I want to see them next to each other, Will and her.

[2099] We've seen so many times, but it never.

[2100] Only when you're with her, you recognize the level of tiny she is.

[2101] And I would also argue that the vast majority of photos we've ever seen of them together, she's in heels because they're at an event.

[2102] So we're not even getting in the full brunt of it.

[2103] What we could easily do is look at the picture of her and I next to each other because I think he and I are the same height.

[2104] Right.

[2105] But I just am that.

[2106] Is that what you're thinking?

[2107] I don't like the comparison.

[2108] I wonder what it's like for him.

[2109] It must be so fun for, does he like it?

[2110] Like to just be hugging this tiny, but she's like probably feisty with him.

[2111] There's a part of her book where she talks about getting in crazy shape for a movie.

[2112] And in fact, she very impressive numbers.

[2113] I want to say she bench pressed 175.

[2114] Oh, my God.

[2115] And she was working with the trainer that Will had worked with to get into shape for Ali.

[2116] And she said she was really feeling herself.

[2117] And she came at Will to be playful.

[2118] And then he just threw around and she was like, oh, yeah, I guess that's, that's, that's, that's.

[2119] It's big boy muscles.

[2120] Oh, dang.

[2121] It didn't even...

[2122] I forget how she said it, but she made fun of herself for thinking she could take them.

[2123] Yeah, take them on with her new muscles.

[2124] That's really funny.

[2125] They look closer in height in photos than you would expect.

[2126] Because she's in heels, though, do you think?

[2127] Because it's mostly red carpets.

[2128] Yeah.

[2129] But even still, her with like a three -inch heel is five, too.

[2130] Yeah, I mean, some, it's like up to his shoulder maybe.

[2131] Oh.

[2132] And, but others, it's like up to his cheek.

[2133] Oh, well, that's...

[2134] She's standing.

[2135] He's bending down or something.

[2136] Or she's standing on a block.

[2137] He's in a hole.

[2138] Here's a question for you, Manny.

[2139] Would it have crossed your mind?

[2140] Like, I guess, let's say Matt Damon's wife has the, Lucy.

[2141] Lucy was the exact same size as you.

[2142] She is tiny.

[2143] I saw her in real life.

[2144] So maybe you even had this thought.

[2145] Did you think when you hugged him like, oh, this will remind him of her?

[2146] Oh, no. I didn't, I didn't think that.

[2147] I thought another bad thing.

[2148] thought.

[2149] Which is, which is like, oh, he likes tiny small girls.

[2150] And so that's the like, that's a check in my bucket.

[2151] Like it, for me, it's like, oh, it could have maybe happened.

[2152] Also because she is not a whitey.

[2153] The wife.

[2154] Yes.

[2155] The wifey is not a whitey.

[2156] Yes.

[2157] And so that's another check in my bucket.

[2158] Yes.

[2159] Small and not white.

[2160] So, because when I hugged Jada, I thought this is going to feel very familiar to her.

[2161] Of course.

[2162] Right.

[2163] Exact same frame and everything.

[2164] Yeah, but that's not really true, though, because I've hugged other people of the same heights, and I've hugged multiple people of same heights.

[2165] As me. As you and as in general, like Ryan's size.

[2166] Matt size.

[2167] Is a Ryan of Matt the same?

[2168] I think they're the same height.

[2169] Okay, so it great.

[2170] Yeah.

[2171] I probably just pissed both of them off somehow, but I, that from my vantage point, they seem to be the same high.

[2172] I was like about to look it up.

[2173] To me, it's like Charlie and I are staying next to each other.

[2174] We're the same height.

[2175] And then those two are staying next to each other and there.

[2176] No, no, he's taller than me. What?

[2177] But just fractionally.

[2178] I have to cut that.

[2179] But that is shocking.

[2180] You don't think that?

[2181] No. Really?

[2182] I imagine it to go Ryan and Matt.

[2183] Maybe, maybe Matt, like, hair taller.

[2184] That's what I think, too.

[2185] Yeah.

[2186] Pun intended.

[2187] Oh, yeah.

[2188] Wow, yeah.

[2189] Unintended.

[2190] And then Charlie and then you.

[2191] Oh, and then Eric in that same Ryan -y level.

[2192] Yes, yes.

[2193] Let me ask Molly how tall Eric is.

[2194] Okay.

[2195] I know how tall Ryan is.

[2196] He's 511.

[2197] Would he say that?

[2198] Is this what you do, though?

[2199] No, he, this is, we told the story when we interviewed him, I think.

[2200] One of my favorite moments I ever witnessed of Ryan Hanson, solves crimes on TV at high Ryan Hansen, was at their first house.

[2201] We all decided to measure ourselves against the wall, like make a line on the wall.

[2202] And he was 5 -11.

[2203] And he was like, no, it's not right.

[2204] I'm six feet.

[2205] Right.

[2206] That's not funny enough on its own.

[2207] What was really funny was I caught him like a half hour later.

[2208] I saw him walking through the kitchen, and he was like, under his breath, he's like, six feet.

[2209] He was still wrestling with it 30 minutes later.

[2210] Well, I get that.

[2211] Oh, my God, did it crack me up?

[2212] If someone measured me and said for 11, I would.

[2213] And also because that's wrong.

[2214] Right.

[2215] So that's why I think he might be right.

[2216] No, no, no, no, he's definitely 5 .11.

[2217] Okay, I don't want to get in the middle of this.

[2218] Actually, I'm not even, shh.

[2219] He might have been just sub 511.

[2220] No, don't do that.

[2221] That's not nice.

[2222] No, I'm not being mean.

[2223] I'm being, when I'm being is I think it was right on the edge.

[2224] Okay, well, whatever.

[2225] Eric is 511.

[2226] I just got back from her.

[2227] Oh.

[2228] Okay.

[2229] So then he and Ryan are the same height.

[2230] He's in, he's in that Ryan range.

[2231] Ryan range.

[2232] Hugging both of them is very different, extremely.

[2233] But they have different body types.

[2234] Well, you think you have the exact same body as Will Smith?

[2235] It's hard to tell.

[2236] I think I'm in better shape right now.

[2237] Look, he's been in better shape than me in the past, but I do think right now I'm in better shape than him.

[2238] We don't need, the point is, bodies are different.

[2239] I think we have very similar shoulders.

[2240] Okay.

[2241] I just want to be clear.

[2242] my stances, you can be the same height and hug differently.

[2243] I absolutely think you can hug differently.

[2244] You can also even have similar body types and hug differently.

[2245] I agree with you.

[2246] Do you think Kristen and I hug similarly or differently?

[2247] Hmm.

[2248] I'd say similarly.

[2249] It's the exact same zone, you know?

[2250] Like the head's in the same place on my chest.

[2251] You can't go over my shoulders.

[2252] You got to go around my way.

[2253] You have to hug me around my waist.

[2254] You have no option.

[2255] But even in the, okay, even if you're doing the same positions, it feels.

[2256] Yes, it feels different.

[2257] The hugs feel different from different.

[2258] I'm putting a, this is a hill I'll die on.

[2259] And I don't want to die on this hill.

[2260] So yes, Higgs, Higgies feel diffy.

[2261] I mean, when Kristen hugs me, she's a very.

[2262] Does it feel like you're hugging yourself?

[2263] No, but it feels, um, I think she huggy.

[2264] hugs specifically.

[2265] She's a very good hugger.

[2266] Yeah, very good hugger.

[2267] Well, I wouldn't know that.

[2268] What do you mean?

[2269] Because I'm her, I'm her romantic partner.

[2270] Right.

[2271] So I think what makes a good hugger from a stranger is like, it feels quite intimate.

[2272] Well, I'm not a stranger.

[2273] I know that, but I guess what I'm saying is, of course, her hugs feel good to me. I'm her romantic partner.

[2274] Right.

[2275] So I don't know her as a friend or an associate.

[2276] If she hugged me as a friend or associate, I would probably be like, wow, that's a really good hug for a friend or an associate.

[2277] But from your partner, you expect it to feel how it feels.

[2278] Okay, but...

[2279] But...

[2280] Don't you think you hug people in your life in a similar way you hug her?

[2281] Yes, absolutely.

[2282] Right.

[2283] So it's not like...

[2284] It makes sense to me. It makes sense to me. That's not...

[2285] We're working backwards.

[2286] What I'm saying is I cannot compare how Kristen hugs to how friends hug.

[2287] Right.

[2288] No. Because she hugs as any of my girlfriends have hugged, which is like very intimate.

[2289] Well, sure, of course.

[2290] But I guess I just mean, I think she does what you do.

[2291] I think she hugs people.

[2292] Like she loves them.

[2293] Yes.

[2294] Yes.

[2295] Maybe not exactly the way she hugs you, but with that kind of loving energy.

[2296] I just thought of something we can finally agree on.

[2297] Let's try.

[2298] Best hug on planet Earth, on the count of three.

[2299] Hold on.

[2300] I'm not ready.

[2301] Think about, like, what hug absolutely explode your heart.

[2302] One, two, three, Delta.

[2303] My dad.

[2304] Oh.

[2305] Don't we agree, Delta's got the best hug in the biz.

[2306] She does.

[2307] I said my dad, because I got stressed.

[2308] Okay.

[2309] But you're just like, you're not even 24 hours out from a hug.

[2310] She came in here.

[2311] She's a good hug.

[2312] And she wraps herself around you.

[2313] She like octopuses you.

[2314] Yeah, she's a really good.

[2315] And she's soft everywhere.

[2316] She's very soft.

[2317] She's been soft and she was a baby.

[2318] Oh, she hasn't lost that yet.

[2319] Yeah.

[2320] It's not coarse.

[2321] Well, when she's been hugging you since she was a baby, it also feels extra special.

[2322] She is a baby.

[2323] Like a baby.

[2324] Remember, I'm so long week.

[2325] I'm so long week.

[2326] What song do I sing?

[2327] You sing two colors.

[2328] You're two cowards.

[2329] That's why I love you.

[2330] I'm so lonely.

[2331] It's really sad.

[2332] It is.

[2333] He can't even finish this song.

[2334] He's so lonely.

[2335] No, I'm sad when I hear that now.

[2336] I don't like it anymore.

[2337] You didn't like it the first time just to remind you.

[2338] Oh, okay, good.

[2339] Yeah.

[2340] I can't think of a character you like.

[2341] Well, robot.

[2342] I love the robot.

[2343] I send him lots of love.

[2344] Yes, you do love the robot.

[2345] And I see your true.

[2346] My God, that's going to be hard.

[2347] Because he only sings in one rhythm, but it's another song.

[2348] Let's see.

[2349] You might have to, okay.

[2350] T. T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, T, and you see your colors.

[2351] I can't remember the words in this tone.

[2352] I thought you were about to do it.

[2353] That was pretty good.

[2354] And I see your two colors.

[2355] That's why I love you.

[2356] Oh, yeah.

[2357] And I see your two colors.

[2358] And that's why I love you.

[2359] Okay.

[2360] That was pretty good.

[2361] It was almost too.

[2362] No. They'd be friends.

[2363] Of course.

[2364] Because they're both lonely.

[2365] Did I hear you were lonely?

[2366] I'm programmed to give you companionship.

[2367] Well, so he wants to.

[2368] What sounds really nice.

[2369] I hope you enjoy it.

[2370] Because he will get a. bill in the mail oh no it's not me it's my owner oh god i just think they'd get along because he's lonely too because he wants to be a real boy yeah yes he was a deep loneliness and he could be yeah it's like another level spiritual this didn't turn out to be the follow -up to jada we were hoping i don't have any hopes or aspirations uh for these but i was going to say you me what but i knew that was wrong because you wouldn't say you right that'd be crazy yeah but you're a very good hugger you're a very good huger thanks rob if you can get him to do it he's a good hug no rob doesn't he's scared do it rob you should practice you and david you and david should go away to a hug retreat yeah you guys do need to work on that do you guys ever hug uh we have try not to yeah well i think my thing is i never know when to fully commit to the hug or not right so like i'm doing a half hug most of the time You only know with Natalie?

[2371] Or even then?

[2372] Yeah, with Natalie.

[2373] And your children.

[2374] I have a couple, like, guy friends that will hug.

[2375] And it feels right.

[2376] Yeah.

[2377] But there's, like, also the, like, intentional, like, let's touch her groins together.

[2378] Oh, wow.

[2379] You go all the way.

[2380] Type of type of thing.

[2381] Oh, wow.

[2382] You have, like, you're of zero or ten.

[2383] Stop.

[2384] That's a cop out.

[2385] That's a cop out for intimacy.

[2386] Okay.

[2387] Because you're making it a joke.

[2388] Well, sometimes that's the only way guys can get there.

[2389] They still need that affection.

[2390] Oh, at the retreat with David Perry.

[2391] The hug retreat.

[2392] No jokes, regular intimate hugs.

[2393] No joking.

[2394] Joking aside, let's hug.

[2395] You can give me a hug.

[2396] I put extra oil in my joints.

[2397] Now it seems you don't like the robot either.

[2398] Okay, it's not his fault.

[2399] Okay.

[2400] You know, I didn't grow up with many hugs.

[2401] You're new to them.

[2402] Yeah, you're new to them.

[2403] I am.

[2404] Did you hug your friends growing up?

[2405] No, I hated hugs.

[2406] You hated hugs.

[2407] I mean, I would do it, but it was also like kind of a joke.

[2408] Like, I think for Cali, it must be confusing because we don't really hug.

[2409] You don't?

[2410] I mean, we will.

[2411] If someone's really injured or something?

[2412] Like, if there's like a necessary.

[2413] Yeah, some comforts required.

[2414] Yeah.

[2415] But we are not like physically affectionate friends, even though she's my best friend in the whole world.

[2416] Who do you attribute that to?

[2417] My family.

[2418] You think it's your doing?

[2419] Like, do you think she hugs her other friends much more?

[2420] No, I think we're maybe similar, but that's a good question.

[2421] I hugged, this is for real, what timing.

[2422] I hugged two dads today at school drop off.

[2423] Okay.

[2424] Random, random?

[2425] No, no, I know them.

[2426] Oh, then that's normal.

[2427] Craig, who I like a lot.

[2428] And then this other dad, who I don't really know very well, but he's very friendly and he's super handsome.

[2429] Yeah, I was talking with Scott, my bro, Scott Schaefer, who I worked with on Parenthood, he was the AD, chatting with him.

[2430] And then I just kept hugging guys as they walked by.

[2431] Oh, my God.

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] I wonder if Scott thinks this is weird or cool.

[2434] No, if you know them, I think it's normal.

[2435] Yeah.

[2436] I just would way prefer a hug than a handshake.

[2437] I know you're thinking well enough to, like, shake your hand.

[2438] I just prefer to hug you.

[2439] But you grew up in a huggy.

[2440] My dad was huggy.

[2441] And your mom.

[2442] My mom was a snuggle bug.

[2443] Exactly.

[2444] But I think more telling is that my dad was.

[2445] I think everyone's mom is pretty huggy.

[2446] Mine wasn't either.

[2447] Oh, boy.

[2448] Neither but.

[2449] So it sounds like Nirmie and your mom need to go as well to this retreat.

[2450] No, no. That's my mom, it's a cultural thing.

[2451] And I, and she didn't have that.

[2452] Receive a ton of hugs.

[2453] So it's not her fall and I do want to be.

[2454] Crystal clear.

[2455] Yeah.

[2456] And it's okay if not all moms are that way.

[2457] She's very nurturing in other ways.

[2458] Yeah, I got nothing to say about what anyone should or shouldn't do.

[2459] Well, they don't need to go to the camp that Rob's going to.

[2460] Oh.

[2461] Okay.

[2462] Okay.

[2463] It's a camp now.

[2464] I like that.

[2465] But I think more telling for me is that my dad was very affectionate.

[2466] I think that was the abnormal element in the equation.

[2467] Yeah.

[2468] Kiss me on the lips, as we talked about.

[2469] Right.

[2470] Yeah.

[2471] He hugged a lot of his male friends.

[2472] Yeah.

[2473] Which was not crazy popular in the 80s in Detroit.

[2474] Good example he set.

[2475] Yeah.

[2476] Well, I guess this is a ding, ding, ding because Jada has a mom.

[2477] She has a mom.

[2478] Yes.

[2479] She's very close with her mom.

[2480] Yeah.

[2481] That's right.

[2482] That's a ding, ding, ding.

[2483] You know one thing I wish we had talked about?

[2484] What?

[2485] It's...

[2486] Maybe I can answer it because I read the whole book.

[2487] Okay, but, you know.

[2488] I've never tried my Jada voice, but let's see how it goes.

[2489] No. Let's just do your regular voice.

[2490] Okay.

[2491] For this exercise?

[2492] Yeah.

[2493] Did her mom got clean, I assume.

[2494] Yeah.

[2495] She got clean.

[2496] She relapsed.

[2497] She relapsed.

[2498] She relapsed.

[2499] Yeah.

[2500] She relapsed.

[2501] And then, yeah, I think she's been...

[2502] It seems from the.

[2503] book.

[2504] She's been sober for quite a while.

[2505] That's great.

[2506] And came out here and lives right by them.

[2507] Right.

[2508] That's what it sounds like she's in their life a lot.

[2509] There was so much stuff I would have liked to have talked about, but it went like I just barely got the essential things I wanted to talk in under two hours.

[2510] But one of them was they travel with like 40 people or they have in the past.

[2511] They have everyone.

[2512] All their childhood friends are along for the ride and the family members.

[2513] And it's incredible.

[2514] It's really.

[2515] That's great.

[2516] Yeah, it's They've included everyone.

[2517] The mom has a house right next to their house.

[2518] You know, everyone's taken care of.

[2519] Yeah.

[2520] Yeah, it's nice.

[2521] I'll take care of people.

[2522] I don't know if you need to live next to me, you know.

[2523] Well, they might, they might get a lot of help from them.

[2524] Could, yeah, might be.

[2525] That wasn't in the book.

[2526] I can't speak on that.

[2527] Okay, because, you know.

[2528] I am an expert on other topics in the book, but not that one.

[2529] Okay.

[2530] My grandparents lived in the same neighborhood, and that was, like, for sure on purpose and for help.

[2531] Yeah.

[2532] And it was a lot of help.

[2533] Ask a random question, see if it was in the book.

[2534] No, are you going to, oh, I thought you were going to want to do the voice.

[2535] Okay.

[2536] One thing I wish you had asked, or we had asked, is what is her favorite ice cream flavor?

[2537] That was not in the book.

[2538] Oh, dang.

[2539] Yeah, I'm trying to think if there was.

[2540] Does she like dessert?

[2541] Did she express any food preferences?

[2542] Does she have a sweet tooth at all?

[2543] No, there is a little part where she talks about her alopecia and it being autoimmune.

[2544] Okay, for real, we didn't talk about that.

[2545] I know, but we had so, like, it was wall to wall.

[2546] I really want people to read the book.

[2547] It's fantastic.

[2548] And that is, I can tell you this part about the LLP.

[2549] Well, we'll tell you a couple things about the LPisha.

[2550] One is she did at some point, she had bouts of it, and she would get steroids and whatnot.

[2551] And then she did say that she went on this kind of mission to cleanse everything.

[2552] So like no drinking, blah, blah, blah.

[2553] And then clean up her diet a lot.

[2554] And because it's an autoimmune thing that had some impact on it.

[2555] And if you read the second to last chapter, the slap, the holy joke and the whatever, she said, I personally wasn't destroyed over an alopecia joke, but I was pretty bummed to think for all the women who are really, really suffering from it and the children who have committed suicide over alopecia, to see that on the world stage that would be fine to make fun of somebody.

[2556] She's like, it really wasn't for me personally that offensive, but I was bummed for all the people who really suffer from it in a way I don't.

[2557] Yeah.

[2558] That they would have to think that this is so acceptable that you can say it on the Academy Awards.

[2559] So that was an element that was interesting.

[2560] Yeah, that is.

[2561] How old was she when?

[2562] It started?

[2563] Yeah.

[2564] I'm going to, this is a guess, but I'm trying to think of the timeline of the book.

[2565] Because she's 52 now.

[2566] It seems that that, like 2016, maybe 17, maybe 17.

[2567] years ago, I think, was the first time she...

[2568] 2016 or six?

[2569] 16 for the alopecia.

[2570] The first bout of it.

[2571] You said 17 years ago?

[2572] No. Oh, I thought you said 2016, 17 years ago?

[2573] Oh, no, 2016 slash 17.

[2574] Oh, got it.

[2575] Yeah, okay, yeah.

[2576] But I think 2016, seven years ago.

[2577] Got it.

[2578] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2579] Okay, so kind of more recent.

[2580] Uh -huh.

[2581] She was having her hair done for an event, and the stylist who she knew, I want to say, said, what's going on here?

[2582] You have a little dent because sometimes she'd get a dent in the side of her, like above her cheekbone.

[2583] And then that's where she would get a bald patch.

[2584] They were kind of related somehow.

[2585] And then it would rebound, and then, yeah, it got emotional.

[2586] So I failed to make this point, but she makes it in the book.

[2587] And it's really, really important.

[2588] And I regret not saying it in front of her, and it is her point, not mine.

[2589] Okay.

[2590] But of that whole thing that happened, the end result being somehow was her fault.

[2591] Oh, right.

[2592] I can't believe we didn't talk about that.

[2593] Yes, that, of course, somehow it's the woman's fault.

[2594] Like, the whole thing in summation from Chris's perspective or the world is like, she cheated on will.

[2595] And that's what caused everything.

[2596] Not the two guys who both insulted her and then slap.

[2597] Somehow a woman is the one who's got a shoulder.

[2598] And I think that's such a good point.

[2599] It is.

[2600] And so well worn.

[2601] It's so fucked up.

[2602] I mean, and it is.

[2603] It's everywhere.

[2604] Yeah.

[2605] But even we, to some extent, I mean, we talk about, I think we talk about more of as a society, the emasculation.

[2606] Yeah, yeah.

[2607] But emasculation is tied in to that patriarchal, like, women are always tied into emasculation.

[2608] They're like the reason.

[2609] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2610] And that's fucked up.

[2611] I didn't bring, and I hope I was clear in this episode.

[2612] My point is both things are bondage.

[2613] Oh, no, for sure.

[2614] That's always my point.

[2615] Not to minimize, like, no, that's a beatdown that somehow she, the woman, was responsible for all that chaos, which is so societal and fucked up and patriarchal.

[2616] Yeah, that's terrible.

[2617] And that those two were behaving their way because of their thing.

[2618] Like, oh, no, no, you weren't, you didn't, it didn't sound like that.

[2619] I just mean in general when we talk about men being emasculated.

[2620] Yes.

[2621] It's often 99 .9 % has to do with a female, whether it's not necessarily the female that's doing the emasculating, but it's because there's a female involved.

[2622] I think that's common, but I think what is more often the case in childhood is just one man exerts his authority over you.

[2623] He says, you can't play with this.

[2624] You can't do this.

[2625] Someone because of their physical presence takes the role over you.

[2626] Right.

[2627] And that also is very emasculating and very regular.

[2628] Yeah, it's almost, I mean, I'm only thinking about this now that we're talking about.

[2629] Like the Tupac stuff, I think, was just like male on male emasculation.

[2630] Right.

[2631] For the most part.

[2632] But like what you're saying is, you know, someone has control over you and that's emasculating.

[2633] It's interesting because we choose that word for men.

[2634] But that happens to women all the time, too.

[2635] And we don't use that word.

[2636] We would say like dehumanizing or something like that.

[2637] And so we could choose to just make that universal a little more.

[2638] Yeah, I guess the reason it's worthwhile to keep them specific is I think masculinity is not a part of the female identity.

[2639] By and large, there are certainly women who want to be masculine.

[2640] I'm not saying there are not exceptions.

[2641] But in general, a woman's not afraid of her masculinity being taken and that that would have an impact on identity.

[2642] Sure.

[2643] Feminity being stolen affects identity.

[2644] Like these women who are shamed or thought to have made to feel bad because they're not fertile.

[2645] That's the female example of it.

[2646] They are less than women because of this thing.

[2647] That's true.

[2648] But the masculinity that we're saying that the men are afraid to lose, the quality that we could parallel that we're to is power and control.

[2649] And women do want to need power and control.

[2650] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2651] So I just think it's the reason I think it's worth being specific.

[2652] is it's a part of identity.

[2653] Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is I think for a lot of women, and maybe more and more now, hopefully more and more now, power and control is more of a part of female identity too.

[2654] I hope.

[2655] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2656] Speaking of that, strong hugger.

[2657] But I agree.

[2658] It's often women are often in the triangle of this emasculation.

[2659] That's the whole point I think that's most important.

[2660] It's like, none of this is separated.

[2661] It's not like men have a problem and women don't have a problem or women have a problem and men don't have a problem.

[2662] It's like it's this crazy yin and yang system where we're all kind of suffering at different points in it.

[2663] Yeah.

[2664] Or benefiting at different times from it.

[2665] True.

[2666] True.

[2667] True.

[2668] Very true.

[2669] I'm not one point.

[2670] Oh, you're not lonely.

[2671] I made a friend.

[2672] Who?

[2673] He's a robot.

[2674] Oh, my God.

[2675] And a boy.

[2676] Oh, he respects the fact that...

[2677] But he's not masculine.

[2678] Okay.

[2679] No, I was liking what...

[2680] I was liking that he was respecting that the robot was also a boy.

[2681] Yeah, it was nice of Elmer.

[2682] Oh, man. Well...

[2683] Well, in summation about that episode, I would say that that was such a fucking lucky experience.

[2684] Very.

[2685] We get those every now and then.

[2686] I know.

[2687] And they really put the wind in my sails.

[2688] Good.

[2689] Yeah, it's really cool.

[2690] That was a dumb word.

[2691] I think you were thinking of radical.

[2692] No, I hate that word.

[2693] Yeah, just grateful, I guess.

[2694] Me too.

[2695] Yeah, I said to her after we recorded and we were chatting, I said, I really think it's so important to hear that story and stories like it.

[2696] to show that love doesn't look perfect.

[2697] Or how it is in a movie.

[2698] Yeah, love is so much bigger than these traditional boxes.

[2699] Yes.

[2700] Couldn't agree more.

[2701] It's so good to hear it and hear people accept that and live their life really in that way and not be stuck in this paradigm and these labels that you only use so that other people can understand it.

[2702] Like, you know in your heart.

[2703] Yeah.

[2704] Love and security and safety, all of those things.

[2705] Yeah.

[2706] So I'm really grateful.

[2707] It's like one of these great lies.

[2708] It's like everyone's pointing fingers, but everyone, too, is in a relationship.

[2709] And all relationships are so fucking complicated.

[2710] And they're failing on some levels and succeeding on others.

[2711] And there's such a gamut of ways they could be good or bad or, you know, and you get to pick what is the thing you value the most, you know.

[2712] Yeah.

[2713] I've said a million times on here, like if I get to pick between a super engaged present partner or one that's fucking out to see but faithful, who cares?

[2714] Yeah.

[2715] I don't need your fidelity if, you know, there's no connection.

[2716] Who cares?

[2717] Yeah.

[2718] And that's my definition.

[2719] That's yours.

[2720] Someone else has the opposite, you know.

[2721] Exactly.

[2722] It's just the two people get to decide it because based on their own backgrounds, histories, damage, strength.

[2723] You get to make your own rules.

[2724] It is curious or I guess expected, but how quick people could be to hate two people that really have been kind of joyous and lovely fixtures.

[2725] The rumor mill.

[2726] You know, they said she was Scientologist.

[2727] This is in the book.

[2728] They said she was a Scientologist.

[2729] They said they're both gay.

[2730] Right.

[2731] They said, you know, there's been every rumor about those two.

[2732] Yeah.

[2733] I mean, that's this world.

[2734] If you are on top in any sort of way, you're a target.

[2735] I mean, I think you have to, I was saying this on synced the other day, that I think, like, what we do here, take it out of, you know, the industry or whatever, you know, sometimes we take some hits or I think her and I, she was like, I don't know about saying something.

[2736] And I was like, you know, for me, the hits are worth the positive.

[2737] Right.

[2738] Oh, there's a saying for that.

[2739] The juice is worth the squeeze.

[2740] Okay, I'm going to.

[2741] You don't like that?

[2742] I don't love it.

[2743] Really?

[2744] Because what's your what's what's the problem with that?

[2745] It's not a problem.

[2746] I cannot I don't have to love it.

[2747] Okay.

[2748] I'm just asking what I just don't.

[2749] I think it's like not an onomat.

[2750] I don't know.

[2751] It's not an amount of.

[2752] That's true.

[2753] I grant you that.

[2754] I don't have a problem with it at all.

[2755] I think it's great.

[2756] We're going to experience a lot of negative stuff, but I think the positive stuff is outweighs it.

[2757] Yeah.

[2758] And people feeling seen and known is worth it.

[2759] Yes.

[2760] And it doesn't matter.

[2761] It's just your truth.

[2762] Like, ultimately, it's just your truth and your authenticity and Easter egg.

[2763] That's all you have.

[2764] Authenticity is truly all you have.

[2765] Oh, yeah.

[2766] Oh, ding, ding, ding, good Easter eggs.

[2767] We have some fun people coming up.

[2768] But yeah.

[2769] Wild things come in your way.

[2770] Wild.

[2771] Wild women, the wild women.

[2772] The ripping and the tarin, the ripping in the tarin.

[2773] Rick, how do you like hedonism?

[2774] If you guys have not seen that video, wow.

[2775] Wow.

[2776] One of the greats.

[2777] If you had list me your three favorite YouTube videos of all time.

[2778] Oh, God.

[2779] Too hard?

[2780] That's not easy for me because, yeah.

[2781] Yeah, there's just so many.

[2782] There isn't, I'm not, that's not my pool.

[2783] You're laying.

[2784] It's really not.

[2785] Although I do love the one, I love the pot guy.

[2786] My wife, I think my wife and I are dead.

[2787] Yeah.

[2788] Yes, yes, yes, the cop who's consumed too much weed.

[2789] That's a great one.

[2790] My favorite's going to always be angry RV, man. God damn at that one.

[2791] That one's brought me more pleasure than anything else.

[2792] Meet the minnie -winnie style in a Class C motor home.

[2793] I get so goddamn diuretic with this.

[2794] You love it.

[2795] I love it.

[2796] And then fucking Rick from hedonism, The Ribbon and the Taryn.

[2797] If you search the Rippin and the Taryn, the Rippin and the Taryn, but I do want to also say, put it out in the universe.

[2798] You know, I struggle so much.

[2799] One of my main issues, I guess, is I'm like desperate for someone who has my back.

[2800] It's a through line.

[2801] It's a thing for me that I work on in therapy.

[2802] And it is so special to see this relationship because they just have each other's backs.

[2803] Yeah, you can say whatever you want about them.

[2804] Regardless of anything.

[2805] And having your back doesn't mean that they had to stay married, which is really cool.

[2806] Yes.

[2807] You know, my mom and dad were very much that way until death.

[2808] Yeah.

[2809] It was very cool.

[2810] It is.

[2811] Yeah.

[2812] My mom didn't ever not pick up the phone for my dad and vice versa.

[2813] I think I'm that way.

[2814] If Carrie or Bree, I would definitely be like, yeah, whatever, I'm there.

[2815] It's a little, yeah.

[2816] I mean, maybe just because they're both not remarried, so that feels.

[2817] They're both married.

[2818] They are.

[2819] Carrie and Bree?

[2820] No. Will and Jay.

[2821] I'm so sorry.

[2822] It's like, oh my God.

[2823] Oh, yeah, you didn't know.

[2824] Yeah, they're both remarried.

[2825] I mean, I think I get, oh, it's tricky because this is my fight in my head all the time.

[2826] Okay.

[2827] She said in the interview, she's like, that's my guy.

[2828] Uh -huh.

[2829] I feel like when you're in a relationship, you can't, like, Bree and Carrie are loves of your life and you'll always be there for them.

[2830] Right.

[2831] And that's beautiful.

[2832] right you're a staple in their life but they're not your girl your girl's Kristen right yes yes but yes that's that is there's a difference i think right so anyway i just think it's sweet and lovely and well then do you want me hit you with the fucking knockout punch from the chapter what they're married again they did ayahuasca together they're separated right they do iawaska together and they're in the throws of it and she said you're a king in my heart and he said you're a queen of my heart oh why do you think you get so emotional about it oh this is fucking beautiful it's like those videos i watch it's in spite of everything yeah it's in spite of everything life is hard it's hard for two people to come together and it's just like those videos it's the monkeys doing the nicest thing they do yeah it's it feels so rare and it's the antidote to everything all my fear all my hate all my everything yeah is that stuff yeah it's really that's nice it is yeah it's the opposite of everything you see on tv and in the news and on social media i know it does feel like oh there's good it's the closest i can get to spirituality it's like yeah man these little monkeys they will bond to each other in a way that's so sweet.

[2833] Yeah, it is.

[2834] It is.

[2835] All right, well, that's my 11th cry of the day, so let's, uh...

[2836] Let's wrap it up.

[2837] Let's wrap it up.

[2838] I love you.

[2839] I love you, too.

[2840] You know, no matter what point in your life, who can you call?

[2841] Bill.

[2842] Me and a joke and Bill.

[2843] And the Ghostbusters.

[2844] And the Ghostbusters.

[2845] Don't forget the Ghosties.

[2846] All right.

[2847] Well, love you.

[2848] I love you.

[2849] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2850] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2851] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.