66 - The Devil's Number

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] You said, what did you say?

[17] Cross your, cross your tease and dot your everything.

[18] That's us tightening the ship.

[19] You know, trying to be correct.

[20] Trying to fucking do it, right?

[21] Yeah.

[22] Just be professionals.

[23] That's the goal.

[24] That's the dream.

[25] So cross your teas and die or everything.

[26] It's not going to happen on this episode.

[27] Nope.

[28] Welcome to my favorite murder.

[29] That's Georgia Hardstark.

[30] That's Karen Kilgareth.

[31] This is the show where we talk about our favorite true crime stories and other things.

[32] I love that our ads.

[33] Like I'm having so much more fun with our ads now.

[34] that we're, like, saying what they're saying, you know, like our tone of voice in them being very normal.

[35] Yeah, we're practicing being normal.

[36] We're practicing having professional speaking voices.

[37] I think it's working.

[38] I like it.

[39] It's good practice.

[40] Hi.

[41] Because you've just been asked to be the voice of McDonald's.

[42] Yeah.

[43] That's me. Chicken McNuggets.

[44] Can I start off with business way up front?

[45] this is important um this story that i told last week about ronnie chason's murder her shooting death was taken entirely from an article that a man named gary baum wrote for the hollywood reporter and i did not credit him until the 50 minute mark and somebody called me out about it on twitter and of course at first i was very offended and completely i texted stephen i was like this isn't possible and i remember you mentioning it too yeah like it was clear to me what you were saying but i think the thing the important thing and the reason I'm pointing it out like this is because and when I went to listen back, it wasn't even full credit.

[46] The way I said it was almost like I was citing him for the following quote as opposed to everything I'd been saying.

[47] So just to make that point, my apologies to Gary Baum of the Hollywood Reporter, I did not mean to take credit for your hard work.

[48] I feel like the only reason that story is out there is because of the articles he's written based on the research.

[49] He's done on these files that Beverly Hills Police has released, and it's it's all him I was just reading his quotes and his timeline chronology all of it so I should have said that at the very beginning where it belongs and I apologize for not doing that so sometimes at the very end you know will be like and I got a lot of help from this article by this person so maybe we should say that in the beginning even if it's not the whole thing right I mean I you know we could go through and pull it's the thing is this we've we're never about like, I went down and read these files at the, you know, police station or whatever, like, but that doesn't mean people that are listening know that or give us the benefit of the doubt or understand.

[50] So I think that's, especially for me as a professional writer, being accused of plagiarism is a horrible feeling and something that I never want to keep the door open on.

[51] So I will always cite from now on and just be very careful.

[52] But I think it's also, it's good to get called on something because that's a line that once it gets sloppy, it just gets sloppier for me anyway.

[53] It's like, I'm always like, oh, I have to do my book report at the last minute.

[54] Yeah.

[55] And then it's, to me, that's like, oh, it's this built an excuse to like be sloppy.

[56] And there's no excuse for that.

[57] You can't do that.

[58] The thing of like, well, this was already said perfectly, so I'm going to do that.

[59] But you could put your spin on it.

[60] Well, in the past, we've always just gone, I'm totally reading you this article from Like the I -5 killer was almost all ESPN .com article or like most of the timeline and most of that in bulk of information.

[61] So like that's how we do it.

[62] We're retelling you articles that we've read.

[63] But you just have to say it.

[64] Yeah.

[65] That's not what we're always doing.

[66] So I don't want that's not this podcast.

[67] I'm sorry.

[68] That's what I'm always doing.

[69] No, no, no, no. That's not what this podcast is.

[70] So that was a dot your everything corner or across your tea corner.

[71] That's exactly right.

[72] That's, are those two different things?

[73] No. Oh, yes.

[74] no yes or no you know what I mean I do I do oh can I this is a good segue into my podcasting favorites now corner okay can I do this so I'm now listening to in my fucking quest to always be listening to a like a season long narrative true crime podcast that I'm obsessed with and then finish in a week and I'm fucking devastated I love that that's the at the end like you're it's like you're throwing yourself off a cliff on purpose for a good story.

[75] Yeah, I need them.

[76] I crave those things.

[77] And then you grieve them when it's over.

[78] Yeah, and I'm like, what do we do with my fucking life now?

[79] And then I find a new one, thank fucking God.

[80] So please, listen, keep making them investigative journalists and Georgia will keep not throwing herself off a cliff for them.

[81] It's called The Accused.

[82] And it's about this chick name Elizabeth Andes in Ohio in 1978 who got murdered.

[83] and like some dude they arrested him and he went to trial twice and was acquitted and like who fucking did it and this chick who's like researching it is awesome and asked the hard questions to the cops and stuff with like a really cute sweet voice so it's not I like it oh and then oh the other thing I was going to say is speaking of just reading articles this is my new sleeping podcast is called mysteries abound and it's just this dude with the most soothing British accent you've ever her and he's just reading articles of mysterious things that have happened.

[84] So it's like Mars and murder and then like, you know, people who have mysteriously, how do I fucking turn this alarm off my watch?

[85] I don't know.

[86] It's always done that.

[87] Just once a day you have to think about it.

[88] Yeah.

[89] In the middle of a podcast.

[90] Yeah.

[91] Anyways, I've been falling asleep to it.

[92] That sounds awesome it's so soothing and they're real mysteries like he's not just making stuff up no he's reading them from like this is from uh this article written by so and so and he'll just read it yeah and so he you know the whole podcast is him reading articles but in the beginning he's like I found this one I found that one and uh I'll save some of them because I'm like well I want to listen to this one I'm awake because it's really interesting does it affect your dreams do you ever have that yeah um but then I'm worried I fall asleep in the car when I'm like listening to the episode of like that's about you know this person who disappeared five unexplained disappearances and then your eyes are just suddenly getting heavy yeah you've hypnotized yourself with mystery and then I put my sleep apnea mask on how did this get in my car hey what the whole thing is just and then suddenly you're in seventh grade and you have to take a test no this is the worst my thing was I always had my dream was always I had to go back and I'd be like 35 and I'd have to go back to high school and play a softball game and I'd be like you guys this is a this isn't fair because i'm old and b i can't i won't be good like why are you making me do this trying to reason with everybody and they're just like come on when you have to do something in your dream that you really don't want to do that you could get out of in real life by saying you're you know have a headache yeah or fuck this i have a headache fuck this forward slash yeah it's just like i feel like up until you were 18 you just had such a such little control over your life that we're still getting over it and like when I realized when I was like had my first job at 15 and I walked into the candy all and I was like I don't have to ask anyone if I can buy any fucking I could gorge myself on candy right now yeah it was really freeing yeah and I did because it was your money is my money you could do whatever you want yeah yeah I was there alone because you know my parents neglected me and it was amazing for us second I thought you meant you worked at that place.

[93] So you were like, you worked at the place where you could get the thing you wanted.

[94] I worked at a place and had money to get the thing I wanted.

[95] Yeah.

[96] But then when I worked in a bakery, yes, I would fucking accidentally break a ton of cookies.

[97] Oh man. I worked at a coffee shop once that made the best, it was oatmeal chocolate chip cookies that I just, it was just the beginning of the worst eating disorder because I would just be seen there and just like, well, it's your sixth cookie of the day and you're not hungry and you actually feel sick and you're still eating it.

[98] What are you do i'm like are those like you know those like chantilly almond cookies that are like what are those called florentines yes the ones that are shaped like that they have at starbucks that are shaped like shells circular no that's not a line shit i mean i'll eat any fucking cookie let's that's get to it but a florentine is what like um it's it like crackily thin um like does it have sugar on the top no does it does it have a face its own face no you're thinking of one of those clown ice cream oh that's right that's right a clown ice cream from Baskin Robbins yes there it is Steven showing you oh thank you Steven is that what they're called quarantines you know those guys oh dude this kind the crisp thin almondy one it's like almond and maybe like something like caramel says the girl who fucking worked in baking for seven years of her life it must be caramel yeah because they're chewy or is it like a brown sugar someone's screaming.

[99] Now I'm making weird saliva noises into the mic.

[100] They have these at Trader Joe's.

[101] And they're half dipped in chocolate.

[102] Yes, the bottom.

[103] I can't buy those because I'll fucking eat them all.

[104] Same here.

[105] My dad started buying those.

[106] Oh, I know, Stephen's showing me and I'm like, honey.

[107] Stephen started passed the pictures around.

[108] Look.

[109] Honey, don't show me a picture of the thing I've eaten 1 ,000.

[110] Listen, don't show me anything.

[111] Can I introduce this saying?

[112] Don't show me anything.

[113] No, there's this.

[114] This is what other thing I say all the time that nobody knows what it means except for me and I think it's hilarious is where there was this JLo documentary quote documentary when like on VH1 when she was like making her clothing line for the first time in like early 2000s and someone shows her this gene thing and she's like I don't like it and they're like well this is it we've already manufactured and she goes don't show me nothing I can't change yeah don't show me nothing like why are you and then why are you showing this to me and so sometimes I'm just like don't tell me anything I can't change please that's right don't show me nothing I can't change that's I I love her I'm sorry I love what a bitch and you know and you could see the girl who was like fresh out of fucking fit fit fit fit them fresh out of like fashion design college just having an inner meltdown yes that's a serious mistake and it's like oh but we've already made 50 ,000 yeah but this is what you said you wanted yeah and she's like but now that the cameras are rolling it to seem like you're the boss yeah well and also you got to double check and maybe triple check that she did I bet you she did I think so I think she did I'd love the behind the scenes it's like the fake behind the scenes and the real behind the scenes would be just I mean that's the show people actually want to see uh -huh yes the footage of the footage that wasn't the footage that explains the behavior that's what we'll have if we ever have a docu drama no hold barred every single every single thing showed Karen, your hair looks great.

[115] And then me going, why does Karen's hair look better than mine?

[116] Fired, fired.

[117] Then you hire somebody that doesn't do hair.

[118] No, it's to prove a point.

[119] Yeah.

[120] And you get them in there.

[121] They do hair better than the person I have.

[122] So then I lure your person away.

[123] Oh, my God.

[124] Melt down.

[125] Fuck, this is good.

[126] Then I fucking shave my head just to be like, oh, yeah?

[127] Well.

[128] And that puts you in all the papers.

[129] You get the most publicity.

[130] It's just all I want in life.

[131] God, Stephen, you're writing this down, right?

[132] This is a point.

[133] Oh, it's being recorded.

[134] We don't have to.

[135] Wait, we're recording?

[136] Wait a second.

[137] Okay.

[138] Do you want news?

[139] I can do News Corner.

[140] I wrote some stuff down.

[141] Some of it's not that great.

[142] News Corner about a crime thing.

[143] Yeah, do it.

[144] Okay.

[145] So this was so hard for me not to tell you at the airport when we were on our way home from Austin.

[146] Oh.

[147] Because I read it and I was like, this is inside.

[148] So in Massachusetts, a crime lab, this woman named Annie Duqueshan, was arrested for mishandling 60 ,000 samples of, it was a drug crime lab.

[149] She, like, tested 60 ,000 samples, and she mishandled them.

[150] For 34 ,000 defendants, 140 of those people were inmates because of her mishandling.

[151] Oh, shit.

[152] So they have to let 23 convicted, people convicted got their sentences overturned.

[153] No, are they convicted of drug crimes?

[154] Yes.

[155] So that doesn't bother me that much.

[156] That they're convicted of drug crimes or they're, yeah, they're letting, let go and I agree and then they're keeping the people who also had violent you know it wasn't just a drug crime it was like a violent felony added onto that they're retrying those people so these 23 ,000 people 20 ,000 of them let's say who were like I had an ounce of weed in my pocket you know what I mean yeah they're like oh well it wasn't weed it was oregano but this chick annie like fucked it up purposely really purposely she was trying to put people away she was trying to be the top dog and look how great I am at this job and like have the most convictions and like but she was just and all the people who worked with her were like this isn't right and the people who were her boss were like no this is great and so they're trying to get oversight on at crime labs now there's the new um that's the tv movie I want to see but it reminds me of the story that I told you last week of the body that was found in the car with the Uber sticker on it and then a bunch of people wrote to us and said was it Because, you know, Cuba Gooden Jr.'s father was found dead in a car.

[157] But the guy in the car that I read about was in his 30s.

[158] And so it's not the same.

[159] A bunch of people were saying, what if this is the thing we're talking about?

[160] But Cuba Gooden Jr., his dad, that's what, I didn't know that happened.

[161] Yeah, it happened the same day.

[162] And that's why a bunch of people were writing to us.

[163] That's insane.

[164] Yeah.

[165] I have one more thing about podcasts.

[166] I'm not saying, like, you're not working.

[167] Oh, you're going back to podcast recommendations?

[168] Because, and we both need to listen to this this week, Fresh Air has an interview with a woman who was a doctor at Bellevue Hospital with mentally ill inmates for 10 years.

[169] Dude.

[170] I saw, somebody tweeted that to us and I saw, there is an amazing America undercover which used to be an HBO series a day in the life at Bellevue that we watched, this was in the 90s and talked about four months afterwards because it's so disturbing.

[171] It's unbelievable.

[172] But it's also just that that life to be a doctor I mean that's what my mom did for a living so like to also watch it and just be like yeah this is your day to day it's so intense and you like every you know everything is wrong but if you leave it's just going to get wronger because you're a good person trying to help so like you can't really take yourself out of it because you feel like you need to try to do something to help well yeah and most of those people have an incredible um obviously like thick skin but like they're not gonna quit that's not that's not it they're they just like get stronger and tougher yeah as the insanity grows around i mean it's it's so intense i would love to hear that interview too it's just crazy the way mental mental illness was treated back then in a way that is horrifying to watch that documentary it's yeah yeah uh well that just made me think of something else.

[173] Oh, I want you and I together.

[174] Can we please promise to watch casting Jean Bonnet together?

[175] Absolutely.

[176] It's this Sunday.

[177] Yes.

[178] Okay.

[179] Can I come over because there's a wrestling thing that Vince is.

[180] Girl, yes.

[181] Watching here.

[182] We can do it from my house.

[183] Okay, so good.

[184] Then casting Jean -Bene is on the books.

[185] Mm -hmm.

[186] Real -time feelings.

[187] Definitely.

[188] Do we live tweet or is that going too far?

[189] Sure, we could live tweet it.

[190] Let's do it.

[191] My favorite murder.

[192] Is that going to too far?

[193] Or have we truly crossed the line this time?

[194] My favorite murder on Twitter is what we are on Twitter.

[195] It's what we are.

[196] It's who we've become.

[197] It's who we've, it's who we've lived as for so long now.

[198] It's our identity.

[199] It's our spirit.

[200] Go ahead.

[201] I'm done.

[202] No, no. We want to talk about those cards that we got.

[203] Oh my God, present corner.

[204] Everything does me have to be a corner.

[205] I need to stop it.

[206] we're recording in the daytime today and it's got a real um i feel like we're really forced to analyze ourselves on this episode we're really there's a lot of shoe gazing a lot of internal uh analysis in the light of day this podcast looks real different who there's no there's no Stephen doesn't have a beer i don't have wine everyone's pores are really big oh and the reason we're not recording yet from yesterday in the evening is because because one of my biggest fears in the fucking world happened, which is that a fucking big rig jumped the center divider.

[207] Fuck, is that true?

[208] Came into oncoming traffic, which is like a big fucking terror.

[209] Yeah.

[210] I know when you're going like 80 in the fast lane and the center divider is like a brick.

[211] Yeah.

[212] And you're like, any person could just jump over.

[213] I picture it happening.

[214] Yeah.

[215] Well, it did happen.

[216] It did happen out like down the street from both of us.

[217] Yeah.

[218] So basically between our houses, it happened.

[219] And then Stephen texts and is like, oh, no, like all these exits are closed.

[220] I can't get anywhere near your house.

[221] And immediately, I'm like, oh, well, should we reschedule?

[222] Just immediately.

[223] And we were like, okay, okay.

[224] Let's reschedule, bye.

[225] Bye.

[226] Cancel, cancel.

[227] I haven't left the house today.

[228] I love to cancel.

[229] Okay.

[230] So anyway, we, Georgia put this on Instagram.

[231] We got these cards in the mail that are the most amazing.

[232] and greeting cards and they are there's a hand drawn they're like just basically um illustration you know what do you call those pen and ink or something um pen and ink is that redundant ink i feel like pen and ink is a term but i could be wrong but anyway sketches yeah they're like it's a drawing so it's like a picture of john wayne gasey and then it says who ordered the birthday clown or the see or i mean the steven king the um ted bun one I love.

[233] It's, you know, it's, and it's a portrait of an actual photo of them that you've seen before, and it says, um, does anyone want to help me carry these birthday presents to my car?

[234] Yes.

[235] And in that one, the Ted Bundy eyes are nuts.

[236] Oh my God, they're great.

[237] And then the one of Richard Ramirez holding his hand up in court, which usually has a pentagram on it, but instead it, what does it say?

[238] Happy birthday.

[239] Which is like, okay, it might cross a line somewhere, but it's like horrifying serial killers that, you know, are big in the society and we all know and love and hate.

[240] So I don't think it's like, no, it's just references.

[241] It's like you've seen this picture a thousand times now.

[242] It's a birthday card.

[243] And then, okay, on top of that, two things, he wrote a note with it in the style to us, in the style of the zodiac killer, including saying at the end, like, hey, I hope you like these, blah, blah, blah.

[244] I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a 38 like greeting at the end and then it says John 12 S -F -P -D -Zer like it's got all the characteristics of Zodiac and then so you can go to Etsy .com slash shop and the name of his Etsy is depressive ghoul G -H -O -U -L but it came to to my house your house house house which is just so I I'm settling I brought this package to Stephen and Georgia when we were recording ads last Friday and I said um let's open this together but just so you know this got sent to my house and then you know Karen is fiercely private so I'm just like my dogs fiercely private and so it was a little scary but then they were so funny that we weren't that scared anymore because we were just laughing and kind of like going can I have this one I want this one no one that clever there's even a mother's day one from like Ed Gein yes like no one that clever can be dangerous or if they are it's like all right And meanwhile, we're looking at all pictures of people who are that clever and that dangerous.

[245] But we're so good.

[246] So anyway, so Georgia puts it, we love them so much.

[247] Georgia puts it on Instagram, blah, blah, blah.

[248] Then two days later, I get a DM from my Twitter friend, John Freiler.

[249] And he writes, hey, I'm glad you like those cards.

[250] It seems like people on Instagram are mad at me for sending them to your house, though.

[251] And then I realize that this, I know this person.

[252] And he asked me, he was like, I think he tried to send them to the PO box.

[253] they got sent back so I just gave him my home dress my friend john friler who is he he's a guy i know on twitter and basically i've known him for it's just that where he was like i love your podcast can i send you this thing did you have any idea how fucking talented this human is no i had no idea how talented he was and i had absolutely no memory of the conversation whatsoever until he basically was scared because murderinos were like hey motherfucker leave them alone oh no yes and so he was basically coming back to us.

[254] I didn't, I didn't truly think someone was going to come attack you.

[255] No, I know, but I think it's that thing of like, they don't want to be represented that way of like, yeah, we're not, we don't want to be creeps to you.

[256] So don't be a creep to them.

[257] And he's like, hey, guess what, everybody?

[258] I wasn't.

[259] Like, we tried to give him a boost to like sell his cards and they're like, fuck you.

[260] It turned on him.

[261] I'm sorry, John.

[262] We, everything about your package was just amazing.

[263] Amazing.

[264] I was going to give my mom, what's the Mother's Day, other Mother's Day one?

[265] I can't remember.

[266] It was Ed Gein and then something else.

[267] And I was like, I'm going to give this to my mom just to horrify her for Mother's Day.

[268] Ed Kemper, the co -ed killer and says the thing of it.

[269] It's so funny.

[270] Ed Kemper, he really did not like his mother.

[271] No. So anyway, thanks, John.

[272] Those are amazing and hilarious and that whole story.

[273] If he hadn't written to me forever, I would have been just a little bit worried in the back of my mind.

[274] You'd hear crunch of leaves at night.

[275] Yeah.

[276] But also what's funny is I was like.

[277] oh we talked about that six months ago and then I checked it was like a month ago horrifying oh we're good horrifying we're good also uh this is just the anecdote I wanted to tell you the other day April and I were at our pre where we do our show hang out and I went to the bathroom and I was standing there and there's a woman that was waiting and she's like sorry there's somebody in there they're taking a really long time and we stood there for five full minutes.

[278] Are you a knocker?

[279] I'm a knocker.

[280] I have full on knocker and a rage knocker.

[281] So I was just like, get the fuck out of there.

[282] Three minutes.

[283] Yeah.

[284] So that's what you have.

[285] Finally, a guy comes out of the men's room and then the woman, another girl came and was waiting behind me and we were both like, just use the men's room.

[286] They're singles.

[287] For sure.

[288] So she goes in there.

[289] The girl behind me steps up to like wait.

[290] So now she's second in line or whatever.

[291] And she looks and goes, oh my God, I was just listening to your podcast, whatever.

[292] So we have a moment.

[293] Her name was Mia, I believe, from what I remember.

[294] We have a moment.

[295] Chit chat.

[296] whatever and then we're just and I knock again the whole thing and does anyone respond no and I was like I was like we need to get a waitress over here I go I bet someone's passed out on the toilet well finally Mia steps up and tries the doorknob you got it's open we were standing there for I'm not kidding like almost 10 minutes with an empty unlocked bathroom door just standing there oh my god and like and you got angry out of it I was I was mad twice oh my god when the other girl came out of the men's room where you're like listen bitch no that was she was like come and gone but when she opened it I just yelled dude in her face and walked it like it was the funniest moment it was really fun it was a fun moment hi hi to you I hope your name was me because I'm pretty sure it was that's good man people need to we were talking about at live shows and I'm fucking a big fan of this because it's like 70 % women that before the show starts and there's like Vince goes out to like look around and he's like there's the craziest line in the women's restroom and I know that in on the weekends at the ferry building in San Francisco they'll close one of the men's room to women only and they're like men go upstairs and use the bathroom because there's five of you and they turn the men's room into a woman's room which I think is so fucking forward thinking and so fucking awesome and I appreciate it very much and I think we should, I think some of the places we do shows do that already, but I think we should all do that.

[297] You're staring at me. Do you not agree?

[298] No, I don't know.

[299] I'm just thinking of all that bathroom politics that people, I mean, it just immediately put me in that place of like, all the people that are like, and then the people that'll go into the room and all that shit where it's like, no one, that's not a real thing.

[300] Yeah, just pee.

[301] That's not, yeah, it's a public place.

[302] You're fine.

[303] And yeah, it should be dedicated, it should be dictated by the numbers.

[304] Like, have you ever seen there's a really funny picture of the women's restroom line at a rush concert and it's like just there's no no one there at all oh my god it's same diff question and i'm not asking for myself necessarily but if you're in a public restaurant it's pretty you know sizable like at the airport and you're peeing is a public restroom an okay place to fart yeah i think that's the only place okay because sometimes i'm like societally acceptable i mean it's they can still hear it just as loudly as if you were at the sink uh -huh but but they can't see your face.

[305] That's all that matters.

[306] All right.

[307] Good.

[308] It's all about shame.

[309] Just do it where you can't.

[310] I mean, especially at the airport.

[311] Jesus Christ.

[312] Everyone has gas at the airport.

[313] Gotta do it.

[314] Airport is fit.

[315] That's how the planes fly.

[316] They're fueled on everyone's gas from airport food.

[317] Too much alcohol.

[318] Nine dollar bottles of water.

[319] Yeah, nerves.

[320] Nerves.

[321] Fear you're going to get dragged off the plane for no reason.

[322] Constipation from massive pharmaceuticals just to get the anxiety away from.

[323] Oh, I never thought about that.

[324] There's so many more pharmaceuticals at the airport.

[325] Yeah.

[326] I didn't think of that side.

[327] That's exactly right.

[328] Dude.

[329] Have you ever seen that?

[330] Then we'll get it.

[331] Then we'll get on to business skippers.

[332] Have you ever seen that?

[333] I can't.

[334] It's not night vision, but it's like heat vision footage of a guy that farts.

[335] Oh, no. I don't like those.

[336] It's so fun.

[337] You don't like it?

[338] Well, because they do it for people walking down the street, not people who know right that's exactly right but they don't show the person it's just the torso down yeah but they just show so you can actually see what it looks like when someone farts this like the cloud it's the funniest thing i've ever seen i hate it and it reminds me of when people would tell up kids that if you pee in the pool like there's a dye and it'll make it show up green and so it's not true but you're terrified it just reminds me of that where it's like shame yeah right on top of you that's right yeah it's shaming you coming out of you human yes although peeing in a pool isn't human peeing a pool's enjoyable it's I mean you gotta expect some level of pee in a pool well yeah especially with children but also because if you're in a warm enough pool it's kind of like that trick where you put your hand someone's sleeping hand in a glass to make them let the bed but you're in a pool it's like that same feeling but it's so it's so hard to get yourself to pee in a pool like to start it oh I disagree you're not supposed to be freely peeing you're not supposed to be like this is against societal norms you got like train not to do this when you were too yes that's true do it but um if other people are in the pool that's gross and then what if you had vitamins that day people are swimming they're like this pool water tastes weird no but i have that yellow i love that yellow pee when you take vitamins yes and you're just like oh fuck it looks like you were in chernoble and then you're like oh no that's a vitamin B yeah everything's okay beats and your pee is red oh i've never had that happen you're like oh god i'm bleeding from my pee and then you're like it's over oh wait eight beats yesterday seriously oh i went to suplantation um okay we've really done it listen the podcast is over thank you guys for listening it is over literally over hey this is exciting an all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[339] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[340] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[341] Who killed Saz?

[342] And were they really after Charles?

[343] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[344] This season, murder hits close to home.

[345] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[346] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[347] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[348] Who knows what will happen once the camera.

[349] start to roll.

[350] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[351] Only Martyrs in the building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[352] Goodbye.

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[354] Absolutely.

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[372] Goodbye.

[373] Okay.

[374] I think I went first last time, didn't I?

[375] Yes, you did.

[376] Didn't I, Stephen?

[377] Yes.

[378] I can't believe I knew.

[379] I can't either.

[380] You knew because I didn't.

[381] This would have taken me ten minutes to remember.

[382] It's probably because I had to go first.

[383] I have for some reason seen it as a negative.

[384] Oh, you do?

[385] I do.

[386] I wonder.

[387] I don't mind either way.

[388] Like you have to break the ice or something.

[389] But I feel if you go last, then you have to be like, you have to close it hard.

[390] You know what I mean?

[391] So I don't like going away.

[392] because I don't then I can let you close it hard yeah shit I forgot about that part okay let's just go back and forth every week let's that's that's a good idea we figured that out after how many episodes is this 70 67 67 68 even you should know this even 66 66 66 66 6 6 is not lucky this is the devil's episode oh god do you think we'll ever get to 600 yes for sure that'd be crazy right we start tripling up Oh, that sounds, I want to go take a nap, just hearing that.

[393] Anyways, are you ready for the exorcism of Annalise McHale?

[394] Fuck, yes, I am.

[395] Yeah, you are.

[396] All right, Annalise McHale was born on September 21st, 1952 in Lebflig, nope, Lebel fling, lebel fling, lebel fling.

[397] It's not lebel fling.

[398] I bet you what it is.

[399] L -E -I -B -L, Lebel, Leibble, F -I -N -G.

[400] Lible thing?

[401] Anyway, she was born in Bavaria, West Germany.

[402] Bavaria sounds good.

[403] West Germany.

[404] Which is a pretty, yeah, okay.

[405] It's a pretty forward -thinking phase.

[406] It's not a place.

[407] It's not the fucking sticks.

[408] West Germany, you know?

[409] No. Bavaria?

[410] No. Anyways, she lived with her three sisters and her parents, and they family were devout Roman Catholics.

[411] They attended Mass like twice a week.

[412] And Anna, as she was known, she led a pretty normal life.

[413] You know, you see pictures of her.

[414] There's a lot of pictures of her.

[415] She's pretty.

[416] She looks very normal, you know, as a teenager.

[417] She's just a normal girl.

[418] And her classmates described her as withdrawn and very religious.

[419] Which part withdrawn are very religious?

[420] Any.

[421] Or the combination of the two is like, you think you're better than me?

[422] You think God likes you more than me?

[423] Yeah, he doesn't.

[424] But you say.

[425] them being Roman Catholic and going to church twice a week.

[426] I just being a raised Catholic, there's a there's another echelon of Catholicism of people that go multiple times a week that makes me feel like I'm being suffocated invisibly when I hear about it.

[427] It's just that kind of like it's such a ritualistic old almost like it's all.

[428] It's like ancient.

[429] It's ancient and it's it's kind of like i don't know it just it worries me tell us non -catholics like fiercely non -catholics yeah what is mass like because i've like been in a church three times in my life it's long it's like an hour long and it is a series of prayers and songs and then in the middle in in latin no no no in the 50s and in this time they might have done it in latin it definitely did it in german That's for sure.

[430] At least.

[431] It was not in English.

[432] But in the late 50s, early 60s, I think they passed a thing called Vatican 2 where they updated everything.

[433] So like when my dad was growing up, my parents were growing up, the Mass was in Latin, and you took Latin in school and all that.

[434] So like Vatican the sequel?

[435] Vatican 2.

[436] Electric Bugalo came out.

[437] This time we're not Latin anymore.

[438] That's right.

[439] And they kind of basically updated it.

[440] So that it was all in English and they cut some stuff out and they just made it a little more maybe livable.

[441] Accessible?

[442] Passed a couple extra laws.

[443] I'm not sure.

[444] The details.

[445] I've been told it multiple times.

[446] So I just don't remember any of it.

[447] Just tried to update it from the 1600s.

[448] I think they allowed guitars for some certain kinds of hippies if they wanted to do it that way.

[449] Nobody that I knew did it that way.

[450] Well, Annalise did not have a guitar and she did not go to the, to version two.

[451] they did not of mass no they were at one point you do eat the body of Christ that's kind of the main point of mass you snack on the body of Christ that's right like the spread afterwards is like no it's all in the middle you drink of his blood and you eat of his body and then you basically are forgiven for all your sins because as a mortal you sin constantly and you have to constantly ask for forgiveness so it's just a little background so many questions that's that wafer right and the blood is wine yeah but in most Mass is the normal people don't drink the wine.

[452] The priest drinks it on your behalf.

[453] What a dick.

[454] You're like, I'm good.

[455] Dude, I don't need you to do it for me. Give it all.

[456] Give us a wine.

[457] This, yeah, okay.

[458] Then, at age 16, she suffers an severe epileptic fit and is diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy and depression.

[459] Is that what you have?

[460] I don't think I have depression, although I sure get low sometimes.

[461] But mine is.

[462] Petit, you have Petit Mall.

[463] No, grand.

[464] When I have them, they're grand.

[465] Karen doesn't do anything.

[466] But they also call it seizure disorder.

[467] It's a different time.

[468] I'm sure it's, yeah, okay.

[469] She's treated at a psychiatric hospital and is put on anti -convulsion meds.

[470] I'm sure the psychiatric hospital is not chill.

[471] Anti -psychotics and mood stabilizers as well as anti -convulsion drugs when the convulsions continued and none of it alleviated the problem.

[472] She was prescribed another drug, Alept, eloped, nope, which is similar to chloroprosom.

[473] Why don't I'm going to take this part out?

[474] It's used in the treatment of various psychosis, including schizophrenia, disturbed behavior, and delusions.

[475] And by 1973, she's suffering from depression and starts hallucinating while praying.

[476] She complains about hearing voices telling her that she was damned and would rot in hell.

[477] And her treatment in a psychiatric hospital did not improve her, improve her health, and her depression got worse, despite the meds.

[478] Long -term treatment did not help, and she grew increasingly frustrated with a medical intervention.

[479] She'd tear her clothes off.

[480] She'd eat coal, and she'd urinate on the floor and then try to lick it up.

[481] Huh.

[482] The, okay.

[483] Let's play diagnose her right now.

[484] She's got schizophrenia.

[485] Well, she's developing schizophrenia.

[486] Well, has it, but all.

[487] also, I used to always be fascinated.

[488] There's a, there's a illness called PICA, which is you're the need to eat inedible things, which it sounds like she has.

[489] But that might be a symptom of a bigger, the schizophrenia itself.

[490] And PICA is like you're low on some necessary minerals?

[491] Yes.

[492] Yeah, a lot of people eat drywall.

[493] My friend had the incredible urge.

[494] She never did it as far as I know to eat laundry detergent.

[495] Oh, yeah.

[496] Well, that's like on my crazy obsession.

[497] There's a show on TLC where people...

[498] Couch stuffing.

[499] Yes.

[500] The lady who ate the couch.

[501] Yeah.

[502] So not so.

[503] This same friend had bought or stole from a pharmacy epicac.

[504] Oh.

[505] And she was like, I'm bulimic.

[506] I'm going to try it.

[507] And then she did it.

[508] And she was like, that was the worst experience.

[509] And I think she stopped being bulimic after that because it was the worst experience of her life.

[510] Because syrup of epicac just makes you vomit horribly?

[511] Everything you...

[512] Everything you have in your stomach.

[513] It's for children to eat poison.

[514] Yeah.

[515] So a lot of parents will have it on hand just in case.

[516] Anyways.

[517] And it gives you like food poisoning, barfing?

[518] It's, it's retching until your entire stomach contents are just gone.

[519] Anyways, that was a sidebar.

[520] Sidebar and also.

[521] What?

[522] No, just, I just love how we're just like, maybe it's this and maybe it's that anyway.

[523] Yeah.

[524] We're really doing a service to everything.

[525] So, oh, she finished high school and when she was 20, she started studying at the university of Worsburg.

[526] So she went to university, even though she had these issues.

[527] And I couldn't complete community college for more than a year.

[528] Like, that's...

[529] I could barely hold down a job.

[530] Good for her.

[531] Yeah.

[532] I mean, I'd walk out of jobs sometimes.

[533] Yeah.

[534] She'd never come back.

[535] Her symptoms had significantly worsened, though.

[536] Oh, she was studying to become a teacher, but her problems got worse.

[537] She heard voices telling her, I already said that.

[538] She saw devil faces.

[539] She became suicidal, and her family believed that she was suffering from demonic possession.

[540] Oh, yeah.

[541] Jump to demonic possession.

[542] Yeah.

[543] A family friend arranged a pilgrimage to a sacred spring in San Damiano.

[544] And a friend became convinced that she was possessed because her inability to walk past a crucifix and drink holy water.

[545] Do you drink holy water?

[546] No. So then what's the inability?

[547] Not sure.

[548] But everyone's hands have been in it?

[549] I wouldn't either.

[550] Yeah, that I've never heard.

[551] heard of drinking it as a except for in like horror movies okay but but i don't know maybe it's different in west germany i'm not sure she became aggressive and she took to self -harming and she would okay and she ate insects she growled at religious icons and would sit under her kitchen table barking for two days so the family sought help from the church many the thing that's causing the problem is where they go for help yeah i mean yeah it's like every single solution aside from like the psychiatric place every single solution is religious base well it's like when you hear of those parents who like these days who refuse to go to uh the doctor to get help and then they get arrested and their kid dies because it really just needed penicillin or whatever the fuck or yeah and the kid dies and they get they get convicted and of child neglect yeah so yeah anyways many of the priest they saw said Annalise needed a doctor.

[552] Even the priests were like, hey.

[553] Yeah.

[554] But one eventually said that she needed an exorcism.

[555] And then she was granted one, you have to get granted an ex to be exercised under the condition that would be done in total secrecy.

[556] And her parents were like, that sounds on the love.

[557] Let's fucking do it.

[558] Right?

[559] Like everyone's like, no, no, no. Go to a doctor, go to a doctor.

[560] One's like, sure, just don't tell anyone.

[561] Yeah.

[562] Great.

[563] That's what we've been waiting to here.

[564] Well, maybe because they were trying to be progressive and there's exorcisms are about as like retro as you could be in the church.

[565] Definitely.

[566] So in 75, she and her parents stopped seeking medical advice altogether.

[567] So three days after her 27th birthday, 22nd birthday and over the next 10 months, Father Arnold Rents and Pastor Ernst Alt performed 67 exorcisms on her for fucking yeah six 10 months and 67 like series of exorcisms and it said that every but they say that every action that they took during these times and rituals were all condoned by annelisse who's fucking mentally ill she's like yeah bring it on this is what i need why are you letting she shouldn't be she shouldn't have decision making you know capacities anymore well also what if nothing else is working what else are you going to do i mean if not if you've gone to hospitals and you've and nothing is changing it then of course you're like yes keep trying this other thing yeah um they would attempt to drive the demons from her body while she would argue with them into demonic voices and guess what they fucking taped them all audio tape them all and videotaped them whoa would you rather watch and listen to one of those or listen to a 911 call uh one of those are you sure haven't been a catholic yes it's terrifying.

[568] Is it?

[569] Yeah.

[570] I mean, it's, it's terrifying because it's scary and her voice is insane, but it's also horrifying because you can tell, it's just like there's someone acting in a way that like they're mentally ill and it's like, it was almost like it was like ramping her up.

[571] Yeah.

[572] It's really fucking horrifying.

[573] Wait, so when you listen to it, you didn't believe she was possessed, you believed that she was mentally ill and basically answering the call that they were.

[574] Okay.

[575] And having fits of like moments of mental illness and i don't believe in like it's not like i would have believed that because i don't believe in god and the devil and all this okay um but so i all i could see it was from a mental illness point of view because that's all i have to to hold me together um and and explain my myself then anyways she stopped eating all together she believed it would lessen the evil's control over her and she got so weak that her parents had to hold her up when she got two weak to do it herself so they would like hold her up take her to bed carry her around shit and there's these fucking photos man so she was this normal pretty regular young woman and the photos look like they're from a horror movie oh no i mean her like she has these like uh blisters on her mouth she ends up being 60 pounds oh no she looks like and do you ever see the photo of like when they found someone's sister in the back room who had scoliosis and they just left her back there and starved her and they found her in like the 70s back there and took photos of her and she was alive which is also terrifying she looked like that she looked like an old woman oh no it's really horrible but you can tell it's her i've never heard of that scoliosis story it's really sad it was making me think of that part in pet cemetery where the sister sits up in bed it might be that well i mean you know what do you think that's what that's what that's scary thing where she sits up really fast.

[576] That's her.

[577] Okay.

[578] But it looks like that.

[579] Yes.

[580] So what I was talking about was fiction.

[581] No, no, no. Because then it also, please.

[582] It's like people haven't been fucking abandoned and locked into back rooms or whatever.

[583] No, but it just, like, the way you just described that, I was like, oh, wait, that's the best part of that fucking movie, best worst part of that movie.

[584] It is.

[585] I forgot all about that part because I thought it was real.

[586] But that's what she looked like, essentially.

[587] Horrifying, unkempt, way too thin.

[588] Like, clearly.

[589] to go from and you look at her and there's no way she's 22 in your mind to go to that level is just like the fact that they could keep doing that to her despite this is unconscionable so she died in her sleep on July 1st 1976 she weighed 66 pounds her knees were broken due to prolonged and repetitive genuflections yeah that's nailing down as part of the exorcisms and she was immobile and had pneumonia broke her knees from kneeling over and over broke her knees that's fucking insane the knees are hard to break oh i know man um the autopsy reports say that her death resulted from malnutrition and dehydration due to almost a year of semi -starvation during the exorcisms the death was investigated and the state prosecutor found that anna's death was preventable even as late as one week prior to her death.

[590] They could have saved her.

[591] Her parents and the two priests were charged with negligent homicide, and the trial began on March 30th, 1978.

[592] The priests were defended by church -paid lawyers, and the parents were defended by a dude who claimed that the exorcism was legal and that the German constitution protected citizens in the unrestricted exercise of their religious beliefs.

[593] So it's like, if you believe it, just do it.

[594] Yeah.

[595] You know, it's like Nike, just do it.

[596] they played it seems like you made yourself sad on that one I did because well first I was like that's not a good exorcism just do it you know what I mean it's like that's not that's not a good attitude about exorcism no they played the court the audio tapes from the exorcisms which they maintain proved that she was possessed due to the appearance of demonic voices on the tapes the priest testified that Anna was possessed by several demons claiming to be Lucifer, Cain, Judas, Scariot.

[597] Judas Iscariot.

[598] He's the one that turned on Jesus.

[599] Thank you.

[600] You're welcome.

[601] It's in there for a reason, and now I know why.

[602] That's amazing.

[603] Look at you.

[604] Who's Hitler?

[605] Now, which one of the saints is Hitler?

[606] Hitler came out of her?

[607] Yeah.

[608] They said also Hitler and Nero.

[609] Jesus.

[610] Not Jesus.

[611] It's all -star villain.

[612] No, Jesus wasn't there, clearly.

[613] No. against them he was nowhere to be found in this situation no he didn't come to visit hitler fuck guess who's coming to dinner not jesus he took a pass on this dinner party he latered right out of there nero my god who's nero's that uh the roman what do you call it caesar august it whatever the guy that oh my god yeah uneducated he's the guy that that fiddled while rome burned he was the last emperor of Rome.

[614] Okay.

[615] Stephen check it.

[616] History and math and science, not my thing.

[617] And anything, really.

[618] They also noted that the exorcisms apparently finally worked.

[619] They said it worked immediately prior to her death.

[620] So, like, well, so it worked.

[621] How unfortunate.

[622] Yeah.

[623] They also noted that the, uh, they, okay, they were found guilty of a manslaughter sentenced to six months imprisonment, which was later suspended.

[624] And three years of probation.

[625] And there's a photo of her mom at the funeral open casket, like, prone next to her daughter's corpse that she effectively killed.

[626] Her story is dramatized in the films The Exorcism of Emily Rose, Requiem, which I watched, and Annalise the Exorcist tapes.

[627] So, like, this is where they all came from is pretty much this chick's fucking experiences.

[628] Yeah.

[629] Despite the fact that in 1984, the bishops declared Annalise mentally ill. So even the bishops were like remember what we said they said she's not possessed but still her grave became a pilgrimage center for fringe believers of course um okay and then this made me think of this book i recently read called brain on fire by susan callahan have you heard of it no it's really good and then i looked it up to find the details of it because in it she talks about how this disease that she had uh they now think is linked to a lot of the uh what they thought was the exorcism signs and so i looked this up it's not my i'm not fucking uh this has already been talked about a lot on the internet as far as brain on fire is concerned so it's not me being like oh my god i just put it together like everyone put it together yeah so susanna and the book brain on fire is really fucking good she's 24 she's a writer at the new york post and she starts going fucking crazy she comes fixated on the idea that her home was infested with bedbugs.

[630] She, like, calls a bedbug guy in to, like, clean out her, like, what the fuck?

[631] And he's like, there's no bedbugs in here.

[632] She's paranoid, irrational, laughing and crying all the time.

[633] Her family thought she was having a nervous breakdown, and they, like, kind of blow her off and give her antipsychotics, and then anti -seizure meds when she starts having seizures, so along the same lines.

[634] And she is eventually finally diagnosed with anti -NMDA receptor encephalitis, which is caused when the body's immune system goes haywire.

[635] attacks a protein in the brain that helps neurons communicate.

[636] Fuck.

[637] Yeah.

[638] Which sounds a lot like Alzheimer's.

[639] Yes.

[640] They're linking it to that too.

[641] And it was like there was one doctor who was able to finally figure it out.

[642] And the way he figured it out is when he had her draw a clock and she drew the circle and wrote all of the numbers tightly on the right hand side.

[643] So her brain wasn't computing.

[644] It wasn't even seeing the other side.

[645] And she thought it was normal.

[646] You know what I mean?

[647] Yes.

[648] because I feel like I've seen that picture Right, yeah So she was So it's the same receptor That's blocked by PCP or ketamine And both drugs can make a normal person act like someone With schizophrenia Which I didn't know, that sounds terrifying Why would you take those drugs?

[649] In the 70s, I think most people accidentally smoked PCP There was a lot of like Because that's angel dust, right?

[650] Yeah We're accidentally on purpose Because the drug wars were fucking racist and horrible that's true uh look it up look up nero how dare you look it up look it up no i didn't mean it like that i'm like you better yeah i'm right no i didn't mean like i don't know you look it up i don't care no i meant like you know what i just want to make clear yes the disease the disease chip stephen make me sound like i can read we can do this the disease typically strikes young women and symptoms worsen and include agitation, paranoia, delusions, hallucinations, and seizures and psychosis.

[651] Fuck.

[652] Yeah.

[653] I'm literally thinking back in the 90s of like, did I have paranoia?

[654] Did I have?

[655] Was I hallucinating?

[656] But did you think, do you remember because like schizophrenia hits younger women?

[657] It seems like really, that's really the like main demographic.

[658] Yeah.

[659] And so did you ever be like, shit man, if I'm going to hit it?

[660] This is going to be it.

[661] Like at 24, I was like, get out of this.

[662] Yes.

[663] Without schizophrenia.

[664] Yeah.

[665] Well, yes, because the, so the brain grows, like, a certain way every seven years, a certain amount every seven years.

[666] That's like this.

[667] So that's why they say it's when you're, you know, 21, whatever.

[668] It goes in sevens of when they think, when they most commonly diagnose it.

[669] Right.

[670] So they say.

[671] And when I, I was at the end, it was, I was 28 and it was that my fourth one or whatever.

[672] few yeah your fourth seizure oh no no no it was like the cycle or whatever I was when I read that thing about the brain growing and that's why sometimes people have seizures yeah and sometimes they have them and never have them again I had one at 14 no 12 yeah I'd one at 12 your brain is a little my brother had one too yeah pretty common is that because it's just complicated um well yeah then it makes sense why a young woman comes in with fucking symptoms that look like schizophrenia who's like 23 or 4 and of course It's just an obvious diagnosis, but then when the drugs don't work, you know, that's a sign that it's not.

[673] Yeah.

[674] But, you know, they didn't, doctors, a lot didn't want to look into that more and would just send you to someone else.

[675] Well, it's like when they're supposed to be the final word and if they don't know what to do, then what do you do.

[676] Well, she said she spent 100 ,000, no, no, no, she said she spent a million dollars on different drugs to try to tackle this.

[677] Jesus.

[678] And none of it worked.

[679] And then finally, this guy's like, draw a clock.

[680] and she's like what and draws it and it didn't cost anything to draw the clock and for him to be like you have this wow okay so anyways that's not about this isn't about her uh so it's now speculated that anti nmda receptor encephalitis could be behind historical descriptions of what was believed to be demonic possession including um in the exorcist when she walks on her walk how do you explain that is she backwards crab walks yes that's like your your bones get stiff your body like turns into these crazy folds and stuff like that and that's one of the fucking things that happen really yeah that's crazy yeah so that exact symptom of demonic possession is actually a symptom of this wow um so appropriate diagnosis and treatment more than 80 % of patients have a good outcome and then i wrote the worst line i've ever written to end a story because i didn't know how else to do it susan callahan got better but unfortunately amelice michel didn't have the chance I know.

[681] Everyone listen to listen.

[682] I think they're making a movie out of it, Brain on Fire.

[683] Really fucking interesting.

[684] I would love to see that.

[685] I think I have it.

[686] You can have it.

[687] I do want to read that.

[688] I saw, I think Requiem is that the one that's in German?

[689] Yes.

[690] That movie is so upsetting.

[691] I saw the first, I would say, two thirds of it.

[692] And then when she started having seizures, when it started getting into that thing, I was like, oh, I don't want to watch a girl have seizures.

[693] It looks so horrifying when, she has a seizure.

[694] Yeah.

[695] I mean, it's just...

[696] Well, it is really...

[697] I mean, you picture back when demonic possession was conceived.

[698] Yeah.

[699] And when it was people who...

[700] Like, if you had a brain disorder in, you know, medieval times or the dark ages, you were just fucked because there was no treatment.

[701] There was nothing to be done.

[702] Well, not even the dark ages.

[703] In the fucking 90s at Bellevue Hospital, like a seizure, you were, you know, if they couldn't control it, right?

[704] Well, they can control it.

[705] They just don't know why you're having it.

[706] Unless they go in and they go have brain surgery and they look to find if there's scars on your brain.

[707] Right.

[708] But like if there's no, if you don't have like, oh, I got in a car accident and this is what's happening.

[709] If you don't have a story that they can put a storyline to, then they're just like, we don't know.

[710] And that's in the beginning of my seizure disorder journey.

[711] In the beginning, they were just like, oh, this is just alcohol withdrawal.

[712] This is what happens to alcoholics.

[713] I, of course, then with absolutely no shame whatsoever, was like, but I've never stopped drinking.

[714] So how could I have withdrawals?

[715] There's no withdrawal situation happening.

[716] But, you know, and then it turned out that that wasn't what it was because I still have seizures to this day.

[717] And you were probably even not aware the seizures were going on because you were drinking so much that you just didn't even notice them.

[718] I knew things were happening and I had injuries and I'd weird, you know, I'd weird eye, because the aura of my seizure is my eyes flick around.

[719] And so when that first started, I would be driving and it felt to me like I was looking.

[720] at the other cars coming like I have a very specific memory of driving down fountain and just check I felt like I was checking the other cars and so I was like oh am I crazy now that I'm like OCD checking cars but it turned out it was my eyes just going eh uh uh because that's the aura and then you seem paranoid a little because you can't stop looking at the cars I mean I didn't think that okay but you could put that together if you were a doctor trying to figure out what the hell was going on all of that stuff fits totally but the idea that they just keep going back to the church or to Catholicism to fix it is just like it's heartbreaking yeah I know broken kneecaps is not cool oh that's such a specific thing of like okay this is a thing you can point to of excessive what she went through that specific thing of her knees being broken from fucking yeah someone should have said stop way fucking earlier than when she weighed 66 pounds it's insanity it doesn't make sense but the whole time she was on board with it so they were probably like Because they're priests.

[721] These people have like...

[722] No, no, she was because she was...

[723] No, I'm saying because priests are doing it to her.

[724] She's a devout Catholic.

[725] They know best.

[726] They drink the blood of Christ, man. They know better than doctors.

[727] They're like final word.

[728] It makes me think, too, of did you watch Taboo, the Tom Hardy series on FX?

[729] Oh, wait.

[730] We've watched a couple episodes.

[731] There was just one near the end, his sister who's married and she's just like a rebel.

[732] She's just like a fuck you rebel for lots of different reasons.

[733] her husband finally decides that she's possessed by the devil and has someone come to exercise the demons inside her and she basically just gets molested by this priest and it's it's that thing too of women in society over the years where it's like when you did have these people and it's not you know it's not the exact same thing every time obviously but that it's such a good example of like women having no um you know ownership or ownership over their own fucking body so then it was like if you're sassing back and saying fuck and all this stuff, then you're possessed by the devil.

[734] And then two men come in and get to just do what they want to, quote unquote, get rid of the devil inside you.

[735] And you are just tied down and, you know, you have to take it.

[736] Well, it's the same thing as far as in like the 50s and 60s and 70s where it's like my wife is being rebellious and or depressed.

[737] And it's like, well, give her a fucking.

[738] Pill?

[739] Lobotomy.

[740] Oh, shit.

[741] Yeah.

[742] The lobotomy situation.

[743] Man, you're like, she doesn't want to be a fucking housewife anymore.

[744] She's going crazy.

[745] Okay, we're going back to...

[746] No, wait, wait, wait, let's see.

[747] We're going back to the area that you were just in for mine.

[748] What are the odds?

[749] So, we were talking to somebody yesterday who said, do you guys take requests?

[750] And we were kind of like, um, but then he said, do you know about this guy?

[751] And the second he started talking, I knew who he's talking about, and I got that thing that I always get when people talk to me about cases where if I know, I just want to interrupt them immediately and be like, it's this, this, this and this.

[752] Well, that's what I did.

[753] And you were quiet.

[754] So you're probably, like, writing it down.

[755] I was just mentally noting.

[756] But that's what I wanted to do, was just be like, and I think at some point I did say something.

[757] But it is so hilariously frustrating when it's somebody's going, like, have you ever heard of this thing?

[758] And then they tell you the whole story.

[759] And you can't, you can't immediately just be like, yes.

[760] Or correct them.

[761] So I knew if I had such strong feelings, I should tell that story.

[762] Awesome.

[763] I love it.

[764] That's like such a quick turnaround.

[765] I know, right.

[766] I heard about it yesterday.

[767] Yeah.

[768] And look at me now.

[769] So this is the story of Jack Unterwiger, the Viena Strangler.

[770] And it's so crazy.

[771] This should be much more well known and talked about.

[772] It's so crazy.

[773] Okay.

[774] So essentially, just to give you a little.

[775] background on Vienna, Austria, which I can't tell you how many times I got confused while I was writing this, forgetting that Vienna is the city within Austria, and not Austria as a city itself.

[776] So much to learn, so much, so many ways to grow.

[777] I feel like we're learning so much this episode.

[778] I mean, growing.

[779] It's kind of like being in school.

[780] It's school time.

[781] It's school time of day.

[782] We're dotting our everythings.

[783] All right.

[784] So, In 2005, there was a study of 120 world cities, and Vienna ranked, it tied with Vancouver and San Francisco as the world's most livable city.

[785] And then in 2011 and 2015, it was ranked second behind Melbourne, Australia.

[786] And it is classified by the United Nations Human Settlements Program as the most.

[787] prosperous city in the world.

[788] Wow.

[789] 2012, 2013.

[790] Let's move there.

[791] So it's fancy -pancy.

[792] They don't, they barely have that much crime.

[793] They have very little murder, very little.

[794] So on New Year's Eve, 1990, a woman's body is found by hikers in the forest in western Austria.

[795] Her name was Heidi Hammerin.

[796] She was a 31 -year -old sex worker.

[797] She was nude, face -down, posed, and had been strangled with her own stockings that were tied in a complex slip -knot.

[798] I'm never wearing stockings because that's all they're used for.

[799] You know what I mean.

[800] In these stories, absolutely.

[801] So five days later in the city of Grouts, hikers find the body of Brunhilde Masa in a forest.

[802] She's partially buried.

[803] She's been posed in the same manner as Heidi was.

[804] She was strangled with her own bra that was tied in a complex slip knot.

[805] Don't wear bras.

[806] I'm just taking off all my clothes for this episode.

[807] There's all these solutions, solutions.

[808] No bras.

[809] Okay, so the police can't find any usable evidence on either of the bodies, except that Heidi had a bunch of red fibers all over her that didn't match anything that she was wearing.

[810] So they took those fibers, put in a bag for later.

[811] But it was so uncommon that anything like this would happen would be happening that these murders hit the papers, and everybody in Austria is freaking.

[812] out.

[813] So they have a crime reporter named Jack Unterweger who takes to the streets to talk to police and sex workers about these crimes for Austrian National Radio.

[814] That's the same name as the guy.

[815] It is.

[816] He started talking about it.

[817] I was trying to say it fast, so you wouldn't notice that.

[818] But he reviews on the streets, he interviews sex workers about the fear that they're feeling.

[819] And he goes to the police and talks.

[820] to the investigators about whether or not they have any idea of who they're looking for.

[821] And the police tell him, they have no idea.

[822] What a great ruse.

[823] Meanwhile in Los Angeles, California, that's where we live.

[824] A 35 -year -old sex worker named Shannon Exley is found underneath an 18 -wheeler in Boyle Heights.

[825] She's posed.

[826] She's naked.

[827] She's been strangled with her own bra that's been tied with a complex slip knot.

[828] Boyle Heights is close to us.

[829] Uh -huh.

[830] very close oh my god um then so the police when they find they see this there's no clues there's nothing so uh they look into any other unsolved murders with the same mo and they find two others uh both irene rodriguez who was found in boil heights as well and a woman named peggy booth who is found in malibu cannon had both been strangled to death with their own clothing left out in the open they were all sex workers they had all three been a assaulted with tree branches.

[831] So immediately, yeah, immediately the L .A. detectives know that they've got a serial killer.

[832] That's three murders in 15 days.

[833] So they're like, we have a fucking serial killer.

[834] Emergency.

[835] But then nothing else happens and the case goes cold.

[836] Now let's go back to Vienna.

[837] There's two more sex workers' bodies that have been found.

[838] Karen Eraglu and Sabine Moitzi.

[839] They were both also found in the forest, both strangled with their own clothing.

[840] that was tied in slip knots.

[841] So every time it happens, it hits the paper and people freaking out, the pressure and the panic is building because this is just something that does not happen there.

[842] So finally, a retired detective named August Schenner from Salzburg is reading about these murders and he contacts the Austrian police, the Viennese police, I should say.

[843] And he tells them that Jack Unterweger the crime reporter and the famous crime reporter he's a well -known guy around Austria Oh shit I didn't know that That he reminds the police that Unterweger is famous Because he was convicted of murder in 1974 He August Schener tells police It's the same MO As the 1974 murder of these women That are being killed now Except for the 74 murder he knew the woman personally, she was not a sex worker.

[844] Why is he out of prison?

[845] But it's the same, well, I'm about to tell you.

[846] Oh, good.

[847] It's the same M .O., same knots, same, everything.

[848] And Schener says, you, I know you don't have any, you're saying you don't have any suspects right now, you should at least take a look at his movements and see where he was all these different times in these different locations where these women's bodies were found.

[849] Totally.

[850] So the police start to look into Unterweger.

[851] and that trial.

[852] So basically he, as I said, he was tried and convicted in 1974 for the murder of this, let's see, her name was Margaret Schaefer.

[853] He was, he went to his, the girl he was dating at the time, he went to her hometown, so she could visit her family in Germany.

[854] And they see, as they drive into town, they see her school friend, Margaret Schaefer, walking.

[855] along the street.

[856] So at that moment Jack Unterweger decides that they're going to rob her and her parents.

[857] What dicks?

[858] So he ends up taking her out to the forest attacking her, raping her, murdering her, strangling her with her own clothes.

[859] And his girlfriend spills the beans on the whole murder and he ends up going to jail.

[860] So while he's in jail, he goes into jail and he can't read or write he's had a horrible childhood his mother um he alleges his mother was a prostitute or a sex worker sorry um the word prostitute is used a lot in this case so um uh but uh he says that she was a prostitute she gave him up to his alcoholic horrible grandfather when he was little and she took off he never knew his father they think his father was an american soldier um and uh he has to live as a child live with this alcoholic grandfather in a cabin in the woods who a one room cabin where he is constantly bringing girlfriends and sex workers back to the cabin to have sex while he's in the room oh man that's his childhood he when he gets older he so then finally the state takes him out of that situation he goes from foster home to foster home then he uh he goes to juvie for a little while he's he finally gets out um and between 1966 and 1979 he's convicted 16 times of sexual assault holy shit and he spends most of that um period of time it was like nine years in jail so when he finally gets out of jail that's when he finds the girlfriend starts traveling all over and that's when he he ends up killing Margaret Schaefer.

[861] So he goes to jail illiterate, but he, while there, teaches himself, he's convicted and given a life sentence.

[862] And in that, sorry, in that trial, he's declared insane by a psychologist who describes him as being a sexually sadistic psychopath with narcissistic and histrionic tendencies prone to fits of rage and anger.

[863] and that psychologist said he's an incorrigible perpetrator.

[864] So he goes to jail, and when he's in jail, I've said this now three times, he can't read or write.

[865] So he teaches himself to read and write in jail.

[866] And he starts writing plays, he starts writing poems, and he starts writing children's stories.

[867] And at the same time, there was this movement in Austria for prison reform, and one of the, like, the approach of their prison reform was called re -socialization.

[868] So it's the idea that if somebody is in jail, they understand what they've done, that they've done wrong, that they should have a chance to make good on that.

[869] That's what jail is prison is for.

[870] You don't get to do that.

[871] So they're basically, it's this kind of, it's very, you know, the intellectuals of the country were kind of like this is what needs to happen.

[872] We need to give people a chance.

[873] And through the arts and through self -expression, they can basically reform themselves.

[874] And so, Jack, but that doesn't matter because they still committed this crime.

[875] Oh, I'm stressed.

[876] Sorry, go on.

[877] No, no, no, you're exactly right.

[878] It just pisses me off.

[879] But it's that old, I think it's back before they understood serial killers.

[880] They understood these personalities and what that actually means, how somebody can be actually totally unrepentant and have no conscience.

[881] So they don't, of course, they're not sitting there going, I shouldn't have done that.

[882] I promise I'm not going to do it again.

[883] Like, that's not happening.

[884] I think that mindset that some that people had back then where it's like anyone could commit these crimes, not thinking that.

[885] No, it's this, you know, those people who are saying that don't understand the urge to kill or to sexually assault someone because, you know, they don't have that.

[886] They're grouping all criminals together.

[887] Yeah, or they're grouping all humans together.

[888] and mental, you know, capacities and fucking psychopaths.

[889] So there's a lot of people who theorize that when he knew that this was the reform, because the reform started before he went to jail, before any of that happened.

[890] So he knew that was something they were looking toward.

[891] So he gets into jail and is basically like, this is the prisoner I'm going to be.

[892] And so instead of being here for a life sentence, I'm going to get myself out by playing straight into the need for this program.

[893] and people's need for this program to be real and to work.

[894] Yeah.

[895] So he, while he's in jail, he writes an autobiography called Purgatory.

[896] I can't say the German version of that word because it's all so crazy.

[897] And that autobiography becomes a hit.

[898] What?

[899] And a director even makes a movie of it.

[900] It's basically his life story.

[901] Holy shit.

[902] And there's this groundswell of support for him and his art and his expression and the proof that he can be re -socialized.

[903] and that this can work.

[904] In 1985, they start up, certain group of people start up a demand for his early release.

[905] So it's all actually, one could say, if that was the plan, it's going perfectly for him.

[906] And he basically, in May of 1990, he gets released from prison after serving 15 years of a life sentence.

[907] Uh -huh.

[908] So immediately he gets released from prison and he becomes a fixture on television talk shows he poses as the model of prison rehabilitation he um gets invited to high society cocktail parties his autobiography is taught in schools his stories for children are performed on the radio what in the fuck uh -huh the poor woman who got killed by him is like hey uh i would be still alive if this guy yes exactly well um so he he actually was there there's clips of him on I think it was called Cafe 2.

[909] Now, I can't remember what the name of the show is, but it's literally a circle of men in like turtlenecks, and it's like, you know.

[910] Suit jacket and turtlenex?

[911] They're very clearly like the intelligentsia, and they're just talking about prison reform, and he's there in an all -white silk suit.

[912] What?

[913] He looks like Steve Martin doing a character in a movie.

[914] Oh my God.

[915] And he's there to give his first -hand account of the reality of prison reform.

[916] To school them.

[917] Yeah, to tell them how it really is.

[918] And this made, this is what everybody wanted, and he was doing it.

[919] And it was all like, this is how society should truly be.

[920] Diabolical, man. He also, he made a lot of money because of all of these successes.

[921] He wore designer clothes, the white silk suit, which I enjoyed.

[922] He's wearing it in a lot of clips.

[923] He also drove a Ford Mustang with the license plate, Jack won, which I don't know why I think that's so hilarious.

[924] He won.

[925] Is the number one.

[926] I think it's like, he fucking won, man. You're exactly right, because he did.

[927] He gets an 18 -year -old girlfriend.

[928] So in September of the same year, he's released in May. In September of that year, some people walking along the Vitava River near Prague find the body of Blanca Bakova.

[929] She's not a sex worker.

[930] She was just nearby meeting friends for a drink.

[931] And this is four months after he had.

[932] has been released from prison and is living this life.

[933] So on the advice of the man from Salzburg, sorry, turn the page, on the advice of August Schenner, right, the police get a search warrant and an arrest warrant.

[934] They start looking at Jack Unger.

[935] Now I've lost every Jack Unger watcher's movements.

[936] movements and they see that he, coincidentally, has been in all of the towns where these women have been murdered when they disappear.

[937] So they're starting to track it and they're like, oh, this guy is exactly right.

[938] Like, this is serious.

[939] So they get a warrant to search his home and an arrest warrant, but when they get to his house, he's not there.

[940] So they start looking through his house.

[941] They find evidence that he had gone to Prague at the same time as Bakova's death to do research on an article about prostitution.

[942] And he was placed at a cafe 500 meters away from where she was last seen the night she disappeared.

[943] They also find a red scarf and they bag that shit up.

[944] So one detective that's looking around his house sees that he has keepsakes from a recent trip to L .A. And so they're like, what was he doing in L .A.?

[945] So they call the LAPD and they ask if they have any unsolved strangling sex work or homicides.

[946] And LAPD is like, we got fucking three.

[947] fuck so uh what years is sorry 90 ish what's that what year is this 91 okay so it turns out that jack had been hired by an austrian magazine to write an article on prostitution in america uh so he went to la and he called up the lapd they found in his apartment they found a visitor's pass for the lapd headquarters and they found um he had gone on a ride -along with some officers downtown and on that ride along he asked them where um the sex workers where the prostitutes work and are and they drove him by the spot uh where they all stood around so they basically pointed out his targets oh my god and that article was published in an austrian magazine in december of 1991 so he actually really was a columnist but he was reporting on the murders he was doing can we please get an original copy of that article of that you want it in german oh no i guess not yes i thought that's what like can we just see it yeah you know what yes i'm gonna go okay yes we'll go all the way there i'm going there he also stayed at the cecil hotel that's where he was staying the whole time i just scared the shit out of me me because i oh my god of the cecil a good friend the cecil the cecil hotel where everything bad happens um alice lamb elisa lamb was found dead in the water but also Richard Ramirez stayed there while he was doing a little killing in Los Angeles.

[948] Man, it's like they have a discount rate in like murder magazine or some shit.

[949] I mean, it's so hilariously terrible.

[950] Yeah.

[951] But it is right down there in the worst of...

[952] Yes.

[953] The worst things that are happening in Los Angeles.

[954] The Cisa Hotel is like centrally located for all those things.

[955] I love they trying to rebrand themselves by calling themselves like...

[956] Stay on Maine.

[957] Stay on Maine.

[958] Yeah.

[959] No, honey.

[960] But the funniest thing is that sign is still up that says, Hotel Cecil.

[961] It reads Hotel Cecil down like that and the like vintage painting on the side that says Cecil Hotel or whatever.

[962] I think they can't.

[963] Oh, historically.

[964] I mean, that's my guess because we just drove by there the other night and we looked at it and that's all still up.

[965] Yes or no. We do a special episode from a room in the Cecil Hotel.

[966] The one Lisa Lam stayed in or Richard and Merr stayed in or this guy stayed in.

[967] A hundred percent, yes.

[968] Stephen, can you write that down?

[969] Steven, ideas.

[970] And then we write in the dark German articles.

[971] Listen.

[972] For Austrian magazines.

[973] Send them over.

[974] We just do Google Translate and send them over.

[975] Yeah.

[976] But I want it in my hand, like paper.

[977] Okay, good.

[978] Great.

[979] We know what you want, George.

[980] Let's move on.

[981] Well, okay, so he, so they put all of it together and they put all of it.

[982] It's circumstantial evidence, but they're putting all of it together.

[983] And there's that, there's that guy that you see in every special that was in the, I, I watched, oh shit, I've done it again.

[984] I didn't quote this at the top, but I got all of this from the biography channel, but this is different.

[985] It's all, it's all different.

[986] You've got information from a place and then you put it in several places.

[987] Your story.

[988] Me too.

[989] I mean, you're going to fucking make it up.

[990] You know?

[991] This is all from the internet.

[992] The biography channel is the first special I watched on this.

[993] and it's that thing, it reminded me when the title comes up, it starts Biography Channel, so you're just watching, and then it's Jack Unterweger, and I remembered normally watching when the Biography Channel specials would come up, I'd be like sitting there, and then it would be like, Reba McIntyre, and you'd be like, eh, I don't want to watch this, but then it's like, if one of those came up in real time naturally, it was the most exciting thing in the world.

[994] Yes.

[995] When it was, before specialized, true crime television was really as popular as it is now.

[996] And before DVR, so you kind of didn't know what was going to be on.

[997] Yes.

[998] You just kind of like, catch it.

[999] Catch.

[1000] You had to be there.

[1001] Listen.

[1002] So he goes, Antwerger goes on the lamb with his 18 -year -old girlfriend.

[1003] They end up in Miami.

[1004] No, I'm kidding, Miami.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] To do a show there now.

[1007] And he also, he starts calling into the radio station that he used to work for explaining to them that he's innocent.

[1008] He's being framed by the cops.

[1009] You know, he's just the most, you know, he looks bad because of that old murder, but blah, blah, he's, like, calling in and trying to make a case for himself.

[1010] And there actually are people that are on his side.

[1011] Because there's, because they've bought into the celebrity of him so hard that, like, they can't turn around now.

[1012] Sure.

[1013] They can't admit that, oopsie.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] And, because then you're also kind of responsible for those women getting murdered in a, like, weird roundabout way.

[1016] Well, yeah, there's definitely guilt.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] There's definitely guilt.

[1019] Not that you are, but you would think you are you would yeah you'd have you'd feel fucking terrible for for that yes um so this guy from the fbi i helps vienna develop what they call a crime signature and his crime signature is um murdering strangulation with ligature made of clothing tied with complex slip knots wow and um so they uh they go to trial oh when he gets arrested he gets put in jail.

[1020] He slits his wrists and there's even more support for him and more empathy for him.

[1021] So he finally goes to trial.

[1022] Ding -dongs.

[1023] And it's two months later after his arrest.

[1024] And his defense is, why would I kill women?

[1025] I have a very healthy sex life.

[1026] I've slept with over 150 women.

[1027] Which is exactly the number that Alex Jones said when he was talking about how many women he slept with.

[1028] Really?

[1029] Which I think is kind of funny.

[1030] 150 is like just ridiculous enough.

[1031] Um, and as if, as if it has anything, one has anything to do with you.

[1032] Totally.

[1033] I love women.

[1034] Why would I kill women?

[1035] We know, I don't need to have sex.

[1036] I don't need to sexually assault women.

[1037] They give it to me. Oh, yeah.

[1038] That's all it is about is sexual gratification.

[1039] Right.

[1040] No, no. You fucking lunatic.

[1041] So, uh, up until they say up until kind of like this turning point, he did have, those supporters weren't relenting until, the guy from the FBI came and pointed out the crime signature and they had all these pieces of clothing from all the murders and he just held them up one after the other and was like complex slip knot complex slip knot on every single one and that's when the room turned and it all went different for him uh he was convicted of nine of 11 murders of sex workers in LA Prague and Vienna and in June of 1994 he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole and that night he committed suicide in jail and the interesting thing is that he hung himself with shoelaces and the band the rope band from his sweatpants and he used a complex slip knot to tie it Oh I was holding my breath for that one Yeah.

[1042] Oh, my God.

[1043] They also matched the red fibers on Heidi.

[1044] Match the scarf that they got out of his apartment.

[1045] Like everything was adding up, but it's all circumstantial, circumstantial, circumstantial.

[1046] So when they, that's why L .A. didn't try to prosecute is because there was nothing.

[1047] They were like, you've got nine murders or eight murders over there.

[1048] We're not going to be able to get him because everything over here is circumstantial.

[1049] And there's nothing solid.

[1050] It's all just like, basically.

[1051] these three horrible murders that match exactly while he was there and visiting and his ammo yeah fuck man uh how have i never fucking heard of him it's such a fascinating case there's way more to read but like the idea that while he was murdering sex workers and then writing columns about the murderer and the murders and asking people how they felt and he was writing about like acknowledging and writing about the murder yes yes he was basically in foe investigating his own crime it's amazing and oh that was a thing that's stupid i was trying to find this but um one of the experts uh talking about him said the the thing about um the psychopaths the kind of psychopath that he is is you stop focusing on what they do and they make you focus on them and that's how that like it's cult of personality so so when he was in jail the the fact that he had strangled a young woman faded away and it all became about me and my life and how hard it's been for me and read my autobiography and this is so sad he never said like i made a mistake and killed this no no no it was like don't even point that out no he it was all about him and then and he was he was smart enough and manipulative enough to play the part of the person they were looking for you know to really kind of like be the face of and spearhead this re -socialization plan he was just like I'm going to be that guy do you think that when you know when when people get convicted of murder and then they get to read a letter to the judge or to the family and they just talk about themselves that's the same kind of thing instead of like apologizing to the family yeah or saying I made a mistake or whatever yes that's like I had a hard childhood I was that's the same thing I've always because it's pissed me off whenever I hear those no yeah that's that because it's the narcissist it's um is it some you know a bunch of those traits go across the board and like if you're this you're this you're this but it's like narcissism for sure but then also um the psychopaths where it's just like it's their world and everyone is just an aunt in that world and they get to do what they want and everything is to power everything is too you know what I mean like it's to feed their ego and things are done to them and like they have unfair they things are unfair to them and yeah and if and if they're like I don't even want to talk like when he was finally arrested they tried to get him to talk about the 1974 murder and he was like I have no memory I don't know what you're talking about and just like it's as if in his mind since he doesn't acknowledge it it didn't happen wow I always wish there was a way to get them to like fucking feel bad about it you know yeah but that's the uh there's no such thing that's they don't have a conscience that's me thinking they can be rehabilitated which they can It's you thinking they're like you.

[1052] Yes.

[1053] It's that.

[1054] And actually that's part of the fascination of all of this shit is there's these people that are built totally differently.

[1055] Or because of their circumstances of how they were raised, which is like alcoholic grandfather who did these things.

[1056] It's like there's no way your brain can then go to where you and I are and Stephen and hopefully.

[1057] But also I think you have to have that because lots of people get beaten up by horrible.

[1058] grandfathers and all that stuff you have then it's that extra piece of being a sociopath or being a psychopath where it turns because this guy was just like on fire with the lord since fucking day one where he's like 16 assaults yeah out of you know when he's like in his teens and early 20s he had huge problems from jump and never stopped doing it yeah and then just tricked everybody in this insane way because you know he was getting off on the idea of like Like, I'm going to go interview the head of this investigation and ask them if they have any idea who's doing this.

[1059] And the answer is no. And he gets to get that quote.

[1060] And none of them were like, that's weird that he's putting himself, you know, because that's one of the things is that they put the murderers put themselves in the middle of the investigation or just a little too interested in it.

[1061] But I guess they didn't know that then.

[1062] They didn't know it.

[1063] It's so funny too because it's not that long ago.

[1064] It's the 90s.

[1065] But it's still police procedurally.

[1066] It's long ago.

[1067] Well, that explains to me a thing that I haven't really ever understood, which is why Anne Rule never suspected or even took a while after Ted Bundy was arrested to be like, yeah, it was him.

[1068] So she was under that same fucking spell.

[1069] Yes, it's like, I never understood.

[1070] It was like, how did you fucking not know?

[1071] Because, you know, haven't you ever met a person like that?

[1072] Like, I've definitely met one person in particular where the charisma is such.

[1073] They make you think that they think you're the only person in the world.

[1074] And that, most people never get that.

[1075] Unless you're like exceedingly beautiful or special in some way.

[1076] Or it's this actual specific relationship you're having that's because of the two of you.

[1077] Right.

[1078] Because Vince makes me feel that way and I don't want to make it.

[1079] Well, that's because that's, that's, it's, it's, um, you make him feel that way too.

[1080] But when you meet those people like, it, when it, it, in my opinion, I think a lot of love at first sight is like the first time you made a sociopath because they know how they know how to manipulate you and they have their reasons for it even if it doesn't make sense to you or in your mind it's like why would you do that yeah we had this magical thing and what are you trying to get what are you getting out of this nothing well having young women be in love with you everywhere you go you know is part of it yeah because we don't need that so we don't understand why other people would need that too right or you if you need it you can then go yeah but that would be mean to due to a person who I didn't love back.

[1081] Like, you can bring an actual, you know, um, conscience into it.

[1082] I saw a relationship like that of two people I know and it was like, everyone was like, how the fuck do you not see this person doesn't think like you?

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] And it's like so surprising to see that from a smart person not understanding these like really obvious to everyone else.

[1085] Don't you think smart people are almost more susceptible?

[1086] Yes.

[1087] Because it's like.

[1088] I never think I'm going to fall for anything.

[1089] Yeah, and they're almost more like they can intellectualize away these things because they're not just ding -dongs going along with it.

[1090] They're like, well, I'm really smart, so I would clearly know this.

[1091] Well, and also I think that brain -based people ignore their gut more.

[1092] Oh, yeah.

[1093] So it's like I've met plenty of people who aren't say book smart, which I also didn't mean to just say I'm so smart because I'm true.

[1094] I've proven here time and again that I'm not.

[1095] Listen, if this is your first episode, you know that we don't even have to say that.

[1096] Please know this.

[1097] But there are people who don't get bogged down in thinking and just go, ugh, give goodbye.

[1098] This feels awful for whatever reason.

[1099] Whereas if you're a big thinker and a big analyzer, then it's like, you know, this never happens.

[1100] And this is, I'm magically being chosen by this amazing magical person who is so charismatic and so, you know what I mean?

[1101] like does a thing that you're like what this doesn't happen this is uncommon well I want to say it's also because of self -esteem but no no I was going to say it's also because you and I have been through a lot of experiences where that has happened to us and we have you know since we were very young and went through some shit but it's also so we're like skeptical and thinking that way but also when that happened to me when I was younger I had really low self -esteem yes so you know it's not just that I didn't know it's that that they were like that or what people were like it's that I when someone treats you that it's almost like they find the people with low self -esteem and they know they can see you at a bar that you are that person and the moment they say a word to you they can tell if you are or not that's right that's exactly right because you know it's funny the person i'm thinking of that i had this experience with where i was like if the the things i was thinking that it was and the reality of what it was i learned terribly about a year later when i watched him do the exact same thing to my friend who does not have low self -esteem when I introduced them I was standing there and I watched the look it was like watching a look come over as it was like watching a predator like see you know like like a thing change colors to fit the environment yes and when I saw the look on his face and my heart just dropped of like oh no that's it wasn't love at first sight that's the thing he does to everybody my friend was just like hey what's like nice to meet you and moved on didn't give a shit and I was just like on her oh man this is all so awful yeah yeah but i don't think it can happen to us again or if it does we'll be more aware of it and you know listen to our fucking friends it'll never happen again because i'm an emotional lighthouse on the very tip of main and i'll be there forever goodbye well at least you're going to have lighthouse cats that's fun it's really the only like positive i can think of that at least you always get free clam chowder at a lot Oh, my God, with the oyster crackers on top of it?

[1102] And the big sweater and I'll play the cello.

[1103] Oh, my God.

[1104] This is going to be great for me. Mimi, go live with Karen in her lighthouse.

[1105] I should get Mimi.

[1106] I'm her number one fan.

[1107] All right.

[1108] Anyway, that's the story.

[1109] That's how it is.

[1110] And we're sticking to a tease and eyes.

[1111] Hey, what happened this week that you're happy or like, you know, what do you like?

[1112] Oh, you know what I'll tell you I like?

[1113] and it is it is another present but because we do get tons of presents we do thank you for all your presence it we love them we do we talk about them a lot and did you see the thing that someone gave us that's this thing like we really fucking lose our minds we really do it so we did get a present last week and it was from another person that I know from Twitter Andrew and he tried to send this thing twice I'm sorry I don't pick up my PO box enough and I think they fucking hate me there too because you get so much stuff now yes they fucking hate me lots of presents uh well he sent us he's a woodworker oh my god and we got oh yeah these gorgeous pens in hand carved um pen holders pen boxes yeah whatever they were and then he carved stephen a mustache for his i mean a comb for his mustache a giant wooden comb for his mustache stephen have you been using it i mean every day my mustache I feel like it does look good it's like it looks good I got to you know keep it for keep it tight yeah that's right it's part of your persona now high and tight um so Andrew it's Andrew Hess that I know from Twitter he's a great woodworker and thank you so much for sending those and we finally got them and we were blown away blown away by them it was so thoughtful yeah um I was always trying to think of things that make me happy or things that I loved and um so we I just put up this hummingbird feeder right outside and like I love hummingbirds and there's been like fucking it's been like a swarm of hummingbirds and every time I see one I yell even if I'm alone hummingbird like I just can't not yell happy bird even though they're like it's like every 10 minutes but the thing I love is that it made me realize that they're fucking assholes to each other hummingbirds are yeah they're really aggressive and territorial and they keep fighting against it and it made me so happy because it's like everyone's like hummingbirds are so beautiful and they get tattoos of them and like they love them and it's like well they can be fucking dicks too and it's just this like positive light of to me of like don't don't compare yourself don't don't put yourself up to standards of hummingbirds no because they're actually assholes yeah and they're and they're addicted to sugar and they're addicted to sugar and they just got to get theirs just like everybody else they are mean to each other it's very funny it's funny because I face the lighting glass door where the hummingbird feeders are.

[1114] And so the whole time, especially today, I can see them.

[1115] And there's a lot.

[1116] It's like three at a time every four minutes.

[1117] Seriously.

[1118] So it's really hard to concentrate.

[1119] Like every, I keep wanting to go, look.

[1120] But then it's like.

[1121] And it's so, yeah, it's so distracting, but it's this peaceful thing of staring at a hummingbird is so nice.

[1122] But then they fucking dive on each other and chirp, like yell at each other.

[1123] And then you hear their wings are this like, it's just really fun.

[1124] They're cool.

[1125] They're super cool.

[1126] There's actually a video my friend sent me once.

[1127] There's a guy who put a GoPro on his face and then put a hummingbird feeder, like, near, under the GoPro so that it was basically hummingbirds flying up to his face drinking their stuff.

[1128] But so he could get these first person view, like slow -mo of hummingbirds.

[1129] It's the best videos.

[1130] People are the best.

[1131] Hummingbirds are fucking dick, so don't worry about your life.

[1132] Right.

[1133] People are the best.

[1134] Yeah.

[1135] especially when they have a GoPro strap to listen what we're trying to teach you is might be unclear now but it's going to become clear very soon within the next 10 years it'll be so obvious then you'll be like oh my god they were right and now they live on a tiny island in Maine and we can't tell them clam chowder town I'm the mayor of clam chowder town are Mimi is the mascot and you guys are the listeners.

[1136] And you're the ocean.

[1137] Thank you guys for being our ocean, our waves, our everything.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] Our sea.

[1140] You guys go deeper than we ever believe possible.

[1141] Thank you for being the monster underneath the rock deep down in the sea.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] That's going to save us from the end of the world.

[1144] That changes colors to match the environment.

[1145] You guys are always evolving with us.

[1146] That's right.

[1147] You're the cuddlfish of this podcast and we appreciate it.

[1148] We want to cuddle with you.

[1149] Stay sexy.

[1150] And don't get murdered.

[1151] Goodbye.

[1152] Bye.

[1153] Get your ass out here.

[1154] He's keeping Vince company in the...

[1155] Elvis.

[1156] Do you want a cookie?

[1157] Wait.

[1158] Elvis, you want a cookie?

[1159] Good boy.

[1160] Bye.