My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark XX
[0] This is exactly right.
[1] Hey, this is exciting.
[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.
[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.
[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.
[5] Who killed Saz?
[6] And were they really after Charles?
[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?
[8] This season, murder hits close to home.
[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.
[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.
[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.
[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?
[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.
[14] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.
[15] Goodbye.
[16] Let's start.
[17] Now?
[18] Let's start right now.
[19] Let's start right now.
[20] fireworks baby you're a firework whole building collapses someone on some social media site said that they almost got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot oh no I know sorry we were just as scared as you were we were more scared because as loud as it was on the podcast it was fucking 15 times louder in real life yeah they're fine um sorry oh was very, very scary, surprising.
[21] And to me, funny.
[22] It's hilarious.
[23] It keeps happening, though.
[24] So it might happen again tonight.
[25] And what is it?
[26] September?
[27] I mean, how much longer?
[28] I don't know.
[29] So prepare yourself and your dogs because I'm sure people, some people has, they're like thunder jackets off, but.
[30] I tried to put a thunder shirt on George one time.
[31] Yeah.
[32] And when I came home, it was eaten.
[33] Yes.
[34] It was like ripped to shreds and, parts were gone.
[35] I know.
[36] I know that well.
[37] I put a collar on my cat once and came back and it was like, here's what I think of it.
[38] Yeah.
[39] Get fuck yourself.
[40] I mean, I wouldn't want a fucking collar.
[41] I mean, I guess I did when I was 14 and thought I was punk.
[42] I were a collar.
[43] I mean, that was the 90s, right?
[44] It was.
[45] Wasn't it?
[46] It was all about cat collars and shit back then.
[47] Yeah.
[48] Punk, fake punk rock.
[49] Totally.
[50] I still have mine.
[51] It still smells like, like Victoria's Secret Apple spray, apple body Oh, no. Oh, no. You mean sorrow?
[52] Yeah.
[53] It still smells like ecstasy.
[54] Yeah.
[55] Hey, how are you?
[56] How was your week?
[57] What's going on?
[58] Hi.
[59] I've just been working.
[60] Oh, this is my favorite murder.
[61] Oh, guys, listen.
[62] I mean, I figure if you press play on this, you probably know that.
[63] If you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play, No one's ever done that, right?
[64] No, I seriously doubt it.
[65] But welcome, if you're that one person, and if you're the lone wolf.
[66] Hi.
[67] And if you're new to this, I'm Georgia.
[68] That's Karen.
[69] I'm Karen.
[70] This is my voice.
[71] Karen was the one singing.
[72] I do that because it's my passion.
[73] That's her passion and she's good at it.
[74] And I'm not.
[75] I disagree that I'm bad at, that I'm bad.
[76] You disagree that you're good at it.
[77] I disagree that you're bad at it.
[78] I disagree that you're bad at it.
[79] at it.
[80] Thank you.
[81] Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad.
[82] Yeah.
[83] It's not.
[84] I guess the secret is not to try.
[85] Or care.
[86] Or care.
[87] Yeah.
[88] That's true.
[89] Of life, right?
[90] Of anything.
[91] Yeah.
[92] Of anything at all.
[93] Speaking of last episode, I read a hometown murder at the end that caused me to need to talk about it during therapy.
[94] No. The punk rock finger one?
[95] Yeah.
[96] Oh, yeah.
[97] That's heavy.
[98] And I didn't, I skimmed over.
[99] I skimmed the middle for everyone.
[100] I kind of told you a little bit about it, but I accidentally read the whole thing to myself.
[101] Yes.
[102] And it was so awful.
[103] And for like a week, I kept picturing the girl who'd gotten killed in a way that like I haven't, I've been pretty good at like being okay with this topic that we talk about and study all the time.
[104] Yes.
[105] But that one really fucked me up.
[106] I bet.
[107] Well, the idea that it's this girl alone at a, at a concert.
[108] No, her finger was at a concert.
[109] she was hitchhiking she was okay god that's a bad this is how much I couldn't read it it's like I just didn't tell any of the details but was she um hitchhiking alone she was hitchhiking alone got picked up by three guys like her age I can't remember if she knew them I know it was the 90s she didn't know them unless you're you're saying unless they were like in town yeah but it's like I started picturing all the times that I have done things that stupid when I was younger and why was it her that that happened to and how horrifying those last few minutes were and what like I just have I just go there yeah I understand but my therapist really helped me so now I'm better what she said just give us some over overalls well I have this problem with like daydreaming so deep that I'm there yes and I don't even notice it and so she says before you get into those daydreams you just give yourself a second of awareness that you're going into them before that happens.
[110] It'll rewire your neurons and you won't just like be true.
[111] It's like a moment of clarity.
[112] And then then you can do it.
[113] You shouldn't.
[114] But and then also, uh, since I'm gone mentally to be like, what does that lamp look like?
[115] What are my hands touching right now?
[116] What does this feel like just to be really present in the moment?
[117] So you can tell the difference between imagining something that you think may have happened right.
[118] Yeah.
[119] Yeah.
[120] anymore.
[121] Yeah, yeah.
[122] So, like, just point out things in your brain that are actually in front of you and happening.
[123] That's good.
[124] Yeah.
[125] I would add breathing on top of that.
[126] I constantly hold my breath.
[127] Me too.
[128] And I just have to remind myself and do weird, like, deep.
[129] Yeah.
[130] Just simple breathing because I'm gone and breathing isn't even part of it anymore.
[131] No. And holding my breath makes me feel like I'm going to get through it better.
[132] Yeah.
[133] Or something and that's, or almost like you're pausing reality.
[134] Yeah.
[135] And so breathing isn't even part of it.
[136] I do that so much, but oftentimes it's to fight with people in my head.
[137] Oh, I do that, too.
[138] Like, to present arguments.
[139] And you're really good at it in your head.
[140] It's so good at it in my head.
[141] And they listen because you're right.
[142] And I move them with my words.
[143] Yeah, and they stop acting like dicks.
[144] Yeah, that's all completely fantasy.
[145] The idea that any of that is how it works is total fantasy.
[146] The reality is you're just crying and angry and then can't say anything.
[147] And you kind of, the words come out like this.
[148] a little bit um i just want to say and look here's the thing i understand why can't we be sociopaths staring down unblinkingly staring at a person while you're like i don't forgive you yeah you know i feel like this is not an official thing as as is every other thing i say on this podcast not an official thing ever this is the unofficial corner oh my god someone pointed out and made a fake graph this made me laugh so hard on the Facebook page when I made the correction I said when I made the correction and four I said that one in four people were sociopaths and my correction was 25 % of people someone made a graph and it made me laugh so hard that is amazing oh shit people everyone is so funny there so here's a good segue into the presence we just got I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself.
[149] Okay, can I just explain this very quickly?
[150] So we had, Georgia had a little pile of presence waiting for me when I got home to her apartment for work.
[151] Not, this isn't my home.
[152] And it was like, I waited for you so we can open these up.
[153] Yeah.
[154] We wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever.
[155] And one of them, I opened two because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous.
[156] So it's like Karen's face.
[157] So I was like, I'll go ahead and take the head.
[158] I mean, you're off -camera talent, you know.
[159] So I need this.
[160] I can have the eye patch.
[161] All you need is your brain.
[162] And I would love for my teeth to be blown out.
[163] So I can get some awesome veneers.
[164] Anyhow.
[165] Yeah.
[166] So I did the first two.
[167] And George was like, I said, she picked up the third one and I said, do you want me to open that?
[168] And she was like, I can do it.
[169] I'm not that insane or whatever it was you said.
[170] I was like, fuck anxiety.
[171] And then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors.
[172] And it, I have to tell you, as painful as I'm sure it is, it's also hilarious.
[173] It's one of those things, and this happens to me a lot where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it.
[174] Like, I run into stuff all the time and like do dumb shit and I'm like, I'm so glad that that happened.
[175] Yes.
[176] That's humor and life.
[177] Instead of just when you look down and I have a rando, that's the second time I said that word and I've never really said it before at all.
[178] Interesting.
[179] What's going on?
[180] What teen boy am I trying to impress?
[181] when you look down and there's just a huge bruise for no reason where you're just like do this mean I have blood cancer yeah why the majority of my bruises I don't remember getting and it's not because I'm constantly drunk I'm not you're not and I and I mean when I'm drunk I'm smooth as shit too like I'm good I'm much better in person when I'm drunk when you're drunk what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes really yeah you just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable it seems like yeah i like um i i think i like understand moments so much better and understand people and get get life better yeah which is like so unhealthy but oh you have a good time maybe i'm not anxious maybe that's it maybe i'm amused and not anxious deep down under underneath yeah when you use beer to uncover your true personality well we got some oh my god amazing gifts we just had it like a baby July Christmas dude what was that someone slamming the door but it sounded like a gun that that sounded like a half firework to me yeah it did um all right we got a beautiful card that's the sparkliest thing it's gorgeous with a really funny cute joke on the front and really great printing inside beautiful printing the kind of printing I wish I could do but I don't understand why that looks the way it does I might I don't do this I might trace over the handwriting later it's so satisfying have you tried that uh i've never done it it's from this card is from emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it was it's basically a thank you card for our podcast which is the cutest thing of all time she was raised well girl and she likes a card we'd like to thank her parents for this card mr and mrs emily's parents right um move on to the next one then we got from candis she sent us this really fucking red her she's going to start doing murder zines and the first one is uh the murder zine is called the matilda effect and the first one is about francis glesner lee there's there are women in science scenes uh oh i thought they were murder no they're women in science women in science yeah sorry but the first one um is about a woman who did she want to be a cop did that card say yeah she wanted to be a scientist she wanted to be she's basically if you guys have seen the documentary in the nutshell studies where she really this woman way back when really wanted to be a doctor or a nurse and she wasn't allowed to because of her family I think she was a rich I think she was from a wealthy family so instead she started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes so she just made miniature crime scenes so that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene and she's just had this huge effect on on crime scene procedure and she's incredible I love Candice, um, you can get these at smut punks.
[182] It's S M -M -U -N -X .com and she's going to make, she makes other buttons and stuff and she just makes shit.
[183] And I haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in so long.
[184] I know.
[185] Do you ever make a zine?
[186] No, I never did.
[187] I made a zine for, um, it was like a tribute to Ray Bradbury and Delight.
[188] Combined?
[189] Yeah.
[190] Wow, because those are two things you like.
[191] That's what I liked when I have 16.
[192] So seeing a zine is like exciting.
[193] It's very cool.
[194] And I think you should, I think we should all support.
[195] zines.
[196] You know what I did was I just assumed that Candace made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in women in science.
[197] This was, yeah, it was, it was specifically for me. Well, it is a true crime subject.
[198] Yes.
[199] So.
[200] And so fascinating.
[201] If you get, it's called the nutshell, what's the documentary called?
[202] The Nutshell Studies.
[203] You got to watch it.
[204] Yeah, she's, it's great.
[205] Candace.
[206] Thank you.
[207] Thank you so much.
[208] Please keep remaining to be a badass.
[209] Then we got this amazing puzzle from Holly.
[210] She said, Karen and Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders.
[211] I made a puzzle about mine.
[212] Thought you might like it.
[213] Like it.
[214] Yeah.
[215] We fucking lost our minds.
[216] I'm so excited.
[217] I kind of like, I kind of begged Karen for it.
[218] It's a 3D puzzle of H .H. Holmes Murder Castle in Chicago, which is the best thing of all time.
[219] So I think everybody probably knows, but if you're, if you just started liking true crime, H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -H -L -N, I think they're going to make the Devil in the White City movie with Leo DiCaprio.
[220] That's right.
[221] I think you can get this at, where can you get her?
[222] The puzzle?
[223] Yeah, wait, wait, wait, okay.
[224] You can get holly -carden .com.
[225] So it's H -O -L -L -Y -C -R -D -E -N.
[226] And I think she's going to start just making true crime puzzles.
[227] That's amazing.
[228] I cannot wait to make this.
[229] I'll take photos.
[230] It's very cool.
[231] So anyway, she started off with H .H. Holmes, uh, murder castle, which you can watch the movie.
[232] Uh, it's the best story ever.
[233] If you get creeped out by, by premeditated planned psycho murder.
[234] This is the story for you.
[235] And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left.
[236] I know.
[237] I am not.
[238] They, they, it's been done a lot.
[239] It's been done a lot.
[240] And it's very well known and a movie's going to come out.
[241] So we, we let, we let.
[242] we it got taken care of yeah in our minds um then finally oh my god and then finally bethany uh who may bethany jones i'm assuming these people are okay with their names being said yeah i think they want a shout out which they absolutely yeah so bethany jones um is from the base element makeup bath and body i would call it company and um she sent us uh her card says i hope you like your namesake lipstick.
[243] I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts.
[244] All of your podcasts, one after the other, I twitch.
[245] And fittingly, when I was done, my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows.
[246] I've got a bit rock and roll and made the skull bath bombs in your honor too.
[247] See what an inspiration you are.
[248] Stay sex.
[249] You don't get murdered.
[250] It's so awesome.
[251] This box smelled.
[252] We could smell the bath bombs from outside.
[253] That's why it wasn't a making it pleasant.
[254] A soapy bomb.
[255] Well, it was a bomb.
[256] Oh, my God.
[257] I didn't think about that.
[258] Yeah, that's right.
[259] You were right.
[260] See, you were right all along.
[261] I'm psychic.
[262] But bombs can be good.
[263] That bombs can be good.
[264] So we just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip balm and lip scrub and eye shadow.
[265] A lot of them are named, like have quotes from the podcast.
[266] There's a fucking lip bomb called Elvis want a cookie.
[267] And once we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it, Elvis lost his fucking mind.
[268] he thought he was getting one, so I had to give him one.
[269] Yeah, we kept saying Elvis, I won't say it again.
[270] I know, he's right here.
[271] But yeah, there's, I mean, our names are on, he, on lip balms.
[272] This is, this is right up my alley.
[273] So she's going to make them.
[274] She just wanted us to get the first ones, which is so fucking cool.
[275] Yeah.
[276] So you can go to the, the base element at Etsy.
[277] Yeah.
[278] And buy murderino and non -merterino.
[279] You guys, we can have our own makeup line.
[280] Fucking love this podcast.
[281] From Bethany.
[282] It's so cool.
[283] it's very cool thank you for our gifts totally worth it to open up to open you up to danger i know and get that pot that p o box hey look that's plenty of presence that's plenty i'm okay with the i i talked to my therapist about it i really fucking lost my shit this last week i talked to her about it i got some pepper spray the reality is it's not gonna fucking i mean what are the chances that's going to happen it's not then i get scared when you say that i'm sorry all right if you really really want to find it.
[284] And if you actually have something that you're making that's like legit, you can have the PO box.
[285] Also, there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say, hey, here's what I'm going to send you.
[286] Totally.
[287] And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way.
[288] Right.
[289] And now we have evidence.
[290] Evidence.
[291] It's all on the internet.
[292] So that was present, uh, present.
[293] That was present corner.
[294] What we call present corner.
[295] Uh, we do have a little, some other housekeeping.
[296] Oh yeah.
[297] I have a couple things.
[298] Okay, really quickly, and then we'll get to my favorite murder.
[299] We want to promote two shows that we're going to be guests on.
[300] One of them is coming up on the 27th of July.
[301] It's next week.
[302] It is our friend Jamie Lee, who's a very funny comedian.
[303] She and her husband, Dan, have a live show called Date Night, and we're going to be guests on it on the panel.
[304] The 27th you said?
[305] The 27th at 8 p .m. at UCB.
[306] Franklin.
[307] So if you live in L .A., it's the good UCB.
[308] not the stupid one on sunset.
[309] Is that okay?
[310] Everyone knows that, right?
[311] I love UCB.
[312] I'm sorry.
[313] I'm sorry.
[314] Susan, who works at UCB, who I love?
[315] I'm sorry.
[316] Listen to me, Susan.
[317] I love you.
[318] And then we're going to be guests on the 200th episode of the Dallop.
[319] And it's a live show.
[320] And we're going to be guests.
[321] We're the two guests with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds.
[322] The Dallop is a very popular.
[323] a biweekly history podcast where they tell the craziest stories so fucking excited for this it's at the meltdown of course in los angeles it's eights it's on august 16th it's at seven p .m. it's gonna fucking sell out 12 tickets oh yeah and it's 7 p .m. show which anytime i'm booked on a 7 p .m. show i'm i either miss it entirely or seven minutes before it starts i remember that it's 7 and not 8 so that's and the whole time you're like I hate you what the fuck is wrong with yes so do you want me to remind you a couple times yes please yes if you would do that that would help me a lot you got it um and then so that's um promotion corner um and then podfest is coming up september 23rd yeah so that's a that's a future that's a future one that's it's that weekend of september 23rd we're not sure which day we are booked yet but um i think the way it works is that you buy by a pass for like either a day or the weekend.
[324] But it's, they've done it now a couple years.
[325] I think this is either the third or fourth year and it's super fun and very cool.
[326] And they have, they get amazing podcasts.
[327] I've always wanted to be on it.
[328] I've been secretly like, I hate the popular kids.
[329] And then I'm like, oh, the popular kids want to hang out with me?
[330] Oh my God.
[331] That's so cool.
[332] I'm in with the popular kids.
[333] Then when you get in with the popular kids, you're like, what a bunch of fucking nerds.
[334] I miss my, my nerdy friends.
[335] It happens every time.
[336] We, at some point, need to talk about how we went to the, the live last podcast on a left show.
[337] Can we talk about it right now?
[338] Really?
[339] Yeah.
[340] Let's talk about Karen and I this past weekend.
[341] Thanks to fucking Marcus.
[342] So Vince, my husband is friends with all of them from, um, comedy from New York, from New York.
[343] And I kind of was like, hey, well, you ask Marcus, who he's a good friend, Marcus, what t -shirt company they used to get their shirts printed.
[344] But it was totally just a ruse to get him to fucking know about the podcast.
[345] And he told, he said to Vince, oh, I didn't know it's your wife.
[346] I love the podcast.
[347] Tell them, thank you so much for all the shoutouts.
[348] And then we both just collectively lost our minds.
[349] Yes.
[350] And Georgia texted me that he said that.
[351] And it was like a six text exchange of freak out.
[352] Yeah.
[353] And then he gave us tickets to their live show that was last weekend.
[354] And we went.
[355] Oh, my God.
[356] It was, if you like that podcast, it was five times funnier in person.
[357] They watched, they showed this crazy old, was Swedish or Swiss It was called Hext Hexum It was a silent movie about Witches The Terror of Wishes And who was the Was it William Burroughs?
[358] Who was the speaker?
[359] Yeah, yeah, it was The old drug addict guy Yeah, who just is a I don't know why he narrates anything He's terrible Someone's gonna get real pissed About me saying that Would you just say?
[360] It was a terrible narration Yeah, he's on heroin Yeah, he's not good at voiceover.
[361] Well, then they're They just told jokes or like talked about it over it and it was so funny.
[362] And they're all like the fucking nicest dudes.
[363] And they were, their jokes were hilarious and they were, it was very cool.
[364] And there was a huge, the whole place was sold out.
[365] It was a huge crowd who were going bananas.
[366] So anyone who's a fan, the last podcast on the left, you would have been very proud.
[367] Yeah.
[368] And, and yeah.
[369] Turns out they're awesome and you are correct.
[370] Yep.
[371] Cool.
[372] Uh, goodbye.
[373] Bye.
[374] Thank you.
[375] No. And also we have an Instagram account.
[376] go to it follow it Instagram .com slash my favorite murder there will be photos of all of the shit we got lots of other shit I post a lot of stuff up there Mm -hmm Where did you go just now?
[377] Deep inside I saw it I'm a little warm because we had to shut the apartment down for recording purposes which is good but I got a little warm and then I'm just to be totally honest Oh, no. No, it was a good thing.
[378] I'm just excited about the pants I'm wearing.
[379] I swear to God.
[380] I literally is going to say, well, you can take your pants off if you want, if you're hot.
[381] No, I'm excited because they are kind of thick, but they're, I just haven't worn them in a long time.
[382] Tell us by your pants.
[383] It's a real victory.
[384] Let's tell each other.
[385] Let's tell everyone about the other person's outfit.
[386] You have these cute jeans on.
[387] They're just old lucky jeans, but I've, I stopped eating sugar and now I can wear all my old clothes again.
[388] How do you feel?
[389] you look fucking incredible thank you i feel a thousand times better you seem like a waker i'm much more awake and i'm less infuriated at all times also it turns out that you have the sharpest cheekbones i've ever seen anyone have in my life i didn't know well they were way under all the my fat face uh you know i just needed i was taking a five year break from um society and so i decided i'm coming back now.
[390] And so I get to wear small pants and, you know, shirts that I actually like.
[391] I can see your arms.
[392] You can see my tan, tan, tan, tan.
[393] Every time I look at my arms, I think of you freaking out how tan my arm looked at it.
[394] You're very tiny.
[395] You have a low cut, I mean, for us.
[396] Yeah.
[397] For girls like us, low cut, vina.
[398] It's very low cut.
[399] And my whole red bra is showing.
[400] Yeah.
[401] No, just kidding.
[402] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.
[403] Absolutely.
[404] And when you say, Vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.
[405] Exactly.
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[421] That's Shopify .com slash murder.
[422] Goodbye.
[423] Hey, this is exciting.
[424] An all new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.
[425] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.
[426] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.
[427] Who killed Saz?
[428] And were they really after Charles?
[429] Why would someone want to kill Charles?
[430] This season, murder hits close to home.
[431] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.
[432] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.
[433] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.
[434] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?
[435] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfenakis, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVey, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.
[436] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.
[437] Goodbye.
[438] um cool uh oh georgia's wearing a romper a top a sleeveless romper um strapless romper i'm wearing i'm just showing everything she kind of is it looks like she has an old -fashioned bathing suit on yeah uh that's our girl though she's naturalist and she let she's body proud yeah i just also sweat a lot so i just wear as little as possible i mean los angeles is in front of her eyes turning into a desert It is.
[439] It's fucked.
[440] It's desert.
[441] Back in.
[442] Yeah, the earth is taking Los Angeles back into its natural form.
[443] This whole time, I thought that global warming wasn't a thing.
[444] And then...
[445] Now you're convinced?
[446] Now, I know.
[447] Because of your romper, the number of rompers that you have to buy and wear?
[448] I think it's a conspiracy that Target is playing to get to sell rompers.
[449] And it's working.
[450] Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders?
[451] We might as well.
[452] Skippers.
[453] Come back to us.
[454] It's time.
[455] I think you're first.
[456] Is it me?
[457] I think so.
[458] The murder that I chose this week.
[459] Yes, Karen.
[460] In my favorite murder.
[461] It's one that's always, it's been one that like the first time I read it, I couldn't, I would have to turn my eyes away from the page.
[462] Because it is horrible and horrifying.
[463] But also like there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy.
[464] it's about Mary Bell the child child killer fuck yeah the childhood child killer now what I realized in looking through my researchers my research searches today I mean from weeks ago right for when all that research you've been just piles and piles every night I go to the the city library like Morgan Freeman and I let the guy play it's the same one from a ghost best first Ghostbusters movie right the big huge cavernous ghosty yes i go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian is micro phish is involved you scroll micro fish for hours hours um so in the pictures of mary bell which we should put up on the instagram page i will that's what i look like when i was little exactly so i've always had a bit of a connection to mary bell uh in in certain ways but i also no and we got called out um i think it was on i can't remember the one the girl's name but the girl that shot up the the school i don't like mondays uh oh my god mary anyways sorry it um lisa that that girl we kind of got there's um a couple people who are like we were being too sympathetic to her or being like too nice when normally we're mean if it's like a man and it's older we're mean and like hang him high i don't disagree with that i know I mean, everyone has a lot to say about every fucking single thing.
[465] But I can see that point.
[466] I'm not going to argue.
[467] I agree.
[468] Well, I brought it up because I was thinking, is that how I'm going to be about Mary Bell?
[469] But the truth is, I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath.
[470] I think she, anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic.
[471] Right.
[472] I think she's, like, I think she's nightmare, like, we need to talk about Kevin, the bad seed she's the reality of all of that fiction evil child right like nothing can be done now i think there's a reason she's that way i don't she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she from an early age like didn't bond but she had this fucking crazy mother either way to me i'm i'm just want to say it at the start i'm not defending her i'm not defending mary bill okay but i also want to say another thing about it whenever there's like a child molester or a murderer or someone we talk about their past and we're like yeah that sucks are we supposed i don't i don't think we were softer on her i don't either i think we're always like investigating the past of the person who's killing people that doesn't exonerate them from but i think sometimes you know when it's personal opinion which this is all all of this podcast is sometimes more empathy will come out even if you have it it you won't express it like i don't have a ton of empathy for richard ramirez even though we did get hit in the swing and he had the worst uncle in the world whatever.
[473] We're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member of society.
[474] Yes, and for me that's what's interesting to me. When you can, when it's not just oh, you're born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings, that's one thing.
[475] But like if there's like a little path, you could have been normal.
[476] Totally.
[477] If you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever it's some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood that to me that's like that's really what's fascinating that's the study that's the study yeah the the um the effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and all these horrible things that's the effect you know there's a cause and effect yeah etc yeah and the cause is fascinating right and if i had a education b didn't have a ton and become some type of a of a learned expert about it me too and instead instead i have i work in tv so i am rewarded for not paying attention to anything but we do have a we do have a true crime podcast so i think we're good i think we're basically doing that uh yeah yeah we're doing our best anyhow sorry go on uh no um so i've i've i've always found mary bell fucking fascinating.
[478] So this happened in 1968.
[479] Actually, I thought it happened a lot longer ago.
[480] That's cool.
[481] Sixty -eight.
[482] And it happened in the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England.
[483] That's Stephen Kingstown, right?
[484] No, no, no, in England.
[485] Never mind.
[486] Newcastle.
[487] No, Castle Rock.
[488] It's Castle Rock.
[489] Oh, yeah.
[490] Castle Rock's the, yeah.
[491] He's all about Maine.
[492] Can we just strike all of that from the record?
[493] Yes, absolutely.
[494] We're going to go in and edit this down so good.
[495] No, we're not.
[496] No, we're not at all.
[497] And we never do.
[498] Okay, so she was born to a unwed, 17 -year -old sex worker named Betty McCricket.
[499] And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances just dumped her off anytime she could because she had to go I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as a sex worker.
[500] Even as a non -17 -year -old sex worker that I was, the thought of having a child at 17.
[501] Nightmare.
[502] Nightmare.
[503] It's just, what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions.
[504] Like this one, where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic.
[505] Shut up.
[506] Betty was doing it.
[507] So apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished.
[508] And Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary more than once in her first few years of life.
[509] Oh, my God.
[510] And tried to make it look accidental.
[511] So they all became very suspicious when Mary, quote unquote, fell out a window.
[512] Head drama.
[513] Possibly.
[514] And also when she accidentally consumed.
[515] sleeping pills.
[516] What the fuck.
[517] So they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills, iron pills.
[518] And apparently Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy.
[519] Oh, for fuck sake.
[520] There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen's by proxy.
[521] Which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child.
[522] And so they make the child sick on purpose.
[523] It's basically what happened in the movie seven when he, when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house.
[524] That's a great scene.
[525] No. Not seven fucking.
[526] We both.
[527] The other number movie.
[528] The six cents.
[529] Our brains are sinking up because that was just.
[530] Oh, you know what?
[531] so hilarious.
[532] Yeah, we're, we're, we're, it's like our mistake brains.
[533] They're like, no, no, no. I did the same thing where when I was talking about the polyclass murder, I called it, I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie.
[534] And the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale.
[535] And Adrian, my friend, whole time you called it that.
[536] Yeah, I think, but I think I only said at once, Adrian texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale.
[537] You, you, you went there for softball games.
[538] What are you doing?
[539] And, I was just like, she's like, I'm the only one to notice, but seriously, it's Cloverdale.
[540] This is not a monster movie.
[541] Yeah, grow up.
[542] Maybe you were just trying to protect the town so people, like, so looky -lose wouldn't show up there.
[543] That's right.
[544] That's what you were doing.
[545] Just stay away from Cloverfield.
[546] So, bad news, obviously, and in her upbringing.
[547] And so, of course, at school, Mary was known as a chronic liar, disruptive pupil.
[548] She on occasion would voice her desire to hurt people.
[549] people.
[550] She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying.
[551] And so all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess.
[552] And later on, it, sorry, I was just trying to figure out when a good, but basically later on, it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four.
[553] So she, I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me. This is another thing that like that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality.
[554] Completely.
[555] So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that that that probably plays into the psychopathy and and the behavior.
[556] Yeah, you're like, this isn't a safe world.
[557] world.
[558] Nothing is safe.
[559] I need to fucking defend myself.
[560] And I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt.
[561] And it's a way that it's normal.
[562] It's the way children, yeah, it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt when they're no, they know they're not allowed to talk about it.
[563] Right.
[564] Fascinating.
[565] Totally.
[566] Okay, so on May 25th, 1962 boys, playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four -year -old Martin Brown lying in an upstairs room.
[567] Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell who was not related to her.
[568] They just had the same last name.
[569] Followed the boys inside the house, and when the police arrived, the two girls had to be ordered out.
[570] So they really liked looking at this dead body.
[571] How old were they?
[572] Mary was just about to turn 11.
[573] Okay.
[574] And Norma Bell was 13, but Mary was the dominant of the two.
[575] Sure.
[576] Like a little more mature and smart.
[577] There was no obvious cause of death, so it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle, which was found nearby.
[578] So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking Norma, and he slapped her face and sent her home.
[579] She was choking her so bad.
[580] Holy shit.
[581] The day after this little boy died.
[582] And later that same day, a local nursery school was vandalized, and police discovered notes that read, fuck off, spelled F. U -C -H -O -F we murder watch out Fanny and Faggot Faggot does not mean Faggot in England Just a quick reminder to everybody I think it means cigarette Yeah Wait so Fanny is butt Bundle of sticks Fanny means your pussy Oh it does?
[583] in over there At least I know it doesn't Ireland Oh you're right Yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah so I think they're just Trying to write Okay I'm not sure Maybe they meant it bad If they're writing Fanny They might have meant faggot in the bad way Who knows They also wrote We did murder Martin Brown Fuck off you bastard Again off with one -off So it really says Fuck of Fuck up The cops dismissed the When they found the writing They dismissed it as a prank So four days later Mary Bell appeared at the Brown Residents asking to see Martin And when she was reminded that Martin was dead.
[584] Wait, she showed up.
[585] She showed up at the dead boy's house asking to see him.
[586] And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead, it was the mother that answered the door.
[587] And when the mother said, he's dead.
[588] Mary said, oh, I know he's dead.
[589] I want to see him in his coffin.
[590] Oh, my God.
[591] Can you, oh, what would you do?
[592] I'd scream.
[593] I'd run screaming.
[594] I mean, a little girl, too.
[595] Yeah.
[596] who's yeah okay so two months later three -year -old brian how goes missing and a median search is mounted and mary bell tells brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot and which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors the police discover at the scene, the letters M and N were scratched into his stomach.
[597] Oh, fuck.
[598] So as the investigation narrows, Mary, so somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day.
[599] And then when they took the three -year -old's body into the corner, he said, it looks like he's strangled but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing Mary acted super weird They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was And Norma couldn't stop giggling Holy shit So Mary, when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell she suddenly remembered seeing an eight -year -old boy with Brian on the day he died and she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason and that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors but the boy she was naming a specific boy she was basically trying to pin it on him but he had been at the airport that afternoon And so the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence.
[600] No one knew about the scissors.
[601] Oh, Mary.
[602] That wasn't public.
[603] When you're a fucking 10 -year -old murderer is that you didn't, you don't understand?
[604] You can't keep your shit in line.
[605] Dude.
[606] Faffling.
[607] She essentially implicates herself with the scissor comment.
[608] And she had described them exactly.
[609] So she's trying to pin it on the other.
[610] boy and in doing so she's like they were silver colored and there was something wrong with them like one leg was either broken or bent so she basically describes the exact scissors to a T I mean smart smart uh smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly and can you imagine sitting in a room across from a 11 year old girl when you see this picture big blue eyes little button nose kind of vacant just think baby Karen.
[611] But just think baby Karen, I was a precious lamb, but she's lying to you.
[612] So you're buying her at first and then she does the old inglorious bastard's holding up a three.
[613] And you don't even want it to be true.
[614] Like you're not even like we're going to get this guy.
[615] No. It's like, wait a second.
[616] You just said this wrong thing.
[617] Creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably going to want to look for a kid.
[618] Because a kid strangled a three -year -old.
[619] So you probably don't want it to be true.
[620] You probably have children of your own.
[621] and this little girl is like...
[622] Yeah, the scissors.
[623] I mean, the chill that would go down your back.
[624] So...
[625] So, okay, I did the sly thing again, which I always do.
[626] So, Brian Howe was buried on August 7th, and the investigative detective was named Detective Dobson, and he was there.
[627] And he says, Mary Bell was standing in front of the house house When the coffin was brought out I of course was watching her And it was when I saw her there That I knew I did not dare risk another day She stood there laughing Laughing and rubbing her hands I thought my God I've got to bring her in Or she'll do another one Holy shit So They bring in Mary Bell Why are you laughing psychopath because it's me she's also rubbing her hands together right now because I'm picturing it and it's like how they why don't they make this movie it's the creepiest thing of all time seriously this is like the ring except for the girl has her hair back out of her face and she's like she thinks she's getting away with it she wanted to kill that little kid she killed him and then she wanted to see his dead body it carried out of the house it's just it's so crazy is the like you know when you when adults kill they like try really hard to hide it and try to outsmart people that's like what you do but this little person who i guess you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant maybe maybe maybe or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it she you know because there was some killer that we talked about where they said i want people to feel on the outside the way i I feel on the inside.
[628] Yeah.
[629] Yeah.
[630] Was that one of those Cheshire murders?
[631] Yeah.
[632] Or was it the person you talked about last week?
[633] Yeah.
[634] No. Either way.
[635] Facts.
[636] This is factual.
[637] Factual corner.
[638] It's that thing of like when you finally feel right in the world is when, like, that's how she felt right.
[639] She killed, she had the power to take his life away and put him in that box.
[640] She finally had the power.
[641] But she also had to be a little bit, um, like arrested in her in yes she couldn't be smart enough she couldn't have been smarter than a 10 year old she was just didn't understand right from wrong you don't think so go on because this is where it gets crazy oh my god this is where this is where well this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying um i think his name was billy bell and he was like a career criminal and so they clearly talked about being arrested going in and out of jail and all this stuff because when she's arrested first of all when they say you're going to be charged with murder she said that's all right by me wow um and uh she she she sorry when she was in jail there was a stray cat in jail oh fuck and Elvis Cover your ears.
[642] Yeah, Elvis, you're not going to like this.
[643] She grabbed the cat tightly by the neck and the guard told her not to hurt the cat and Mary allegedly replied oh, she doesn't feel that in any way I like hurting little things that can't fight back.
[644] In another incident.
[645] A policewoman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse, quote, because then I can stick needles into people.
[646] I like hurting people.
[647] Oh my God.
[648] Mm -hmm.
[649] so there was kind of a naive quality about it then also the jailers once she was in there she calmed down a little bit after a while and a lot of the jailers liked her the guards you know because they said she was very smart she was very sharp but um she was a chronic bedwetter yeah and she's got one of the pieces probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother dropped out of a and dropped out of a window.
[650] Probably got two.
[651] At least.
[652] What's the other one?
[653] Fires?
[654] Fire, yeah.
[655] Okay.
[656] No report of fire on her.
[657] But she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was going to wet the bed.
[658] And she said to one of the guards, I usually do.
[659] And at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed.
[660] So she would rub her daughter's face.
[661] in the pee when she found it and she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it.
[662] And we also all know that chronic bedwetting is a sign that you're being sexually molested, sexually abused.
[663] It can be.
[664] I was a chronic bedwetter until I was like nine and I was not molested.
[665] Me neither.
[666] But it is a sign.
[667] It's like it's one of those things.
[668] That harming animals like all those things, that's a child that's in trauma and in danger.
[669] Definitely.
[670] It signs up.
[671] definitely um so when they went to trial norma was acquitted of all charges and mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter so i think it uh they say that norma was there norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family and their whole family was there supporting her and she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying mary did it mary did it and mary did the same thing or saying norman did it but all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off.
[672] And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back.
[673] And so because of that Munchausen's By proxy like this was her drama.
[674] Oh, for sure.
[675] She was basically, you know, say in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty, she was condemning her anyway because no one had sympathy for that family.
[676] Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell.
[677] Yeah.
[678] And then in the tabloids, Mary Bell just became just the face of evil for years and years.
[679] Yeah.
[680] They didn't have anywhere to put her because they didn't have, they, they had never had to deal with sending an 11 -year -old girl to jail.
[681] So there was like lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls.
[682] So they had to keep her, they kept her in like a separate quarters.
[683] in a boys detention center for a long time until she was in her teens when she was in her teen she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys but then they then they were only gone for two weeks and then they went back she spent um uh up until her like i can't i don't i can't find it now um i think it was like in her mid 20s in jail and then when she got out all of england was like freaking out they were super pissed she made money off a book that someone wrote about her again they were like we need to pass laws you know whatever there's a really good movie about adult mary bell still in the prison system and about to get out that stars emily watson and jim that amazing british actor so good in it um but i'll find the name of it but it's it's so good i would recommend it to anybody but it is it's the it's a dramatic version what's it's it's a con i don't I'm not sure.
[684] I think it was made for TV in England.
[685] So it's, but Emily Watson is the star.
[686] So if you look up Mary Bell, Emily Watson, you'll find it.
[687] We'll put a photo of it on Instagram.
[688] Yeah.
[689] I can look it up right now, but it's, it's worth watching because they're very empathetic to her.
[690] And even though she's like criminal behavior, they really attribute.
[691] all of the they attribute both of the killings to her abusive terrible childhood wow but i don't know the things those things of like it's one thing the stories of like the stuff she'd say to the cops because she would say stuff like are you going to charge me like she she had a lot of very adult vocabulary she understood about being in jail and being arrested yeah um you know probably because of her parents but so did she she got out and then what She ended up becoming a grandmother, like a mother and a grandmother.
[692] She got pregnant.
[693] I don't think she got married.
[694] And then she was...
[695] Did she change her name?
[696] There was, they passed a thing where they kept her, yeah, she's, she now lives under a pseudonym.
[697] Right.
[698] And they, like, the British people wanted that repeal.
[699] They wanted to make her live as herself.
[700] Oh.
[701] But they, they, whatever you, they continued the, ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.
[702] I wonder if her family even knows.
[703] Can you imagine finding when your grandma dies and then you go on her stuff and find her fucking birth certificate?
[704] They must know, right?
[705] Maybe.
[706] I bet.
[707] Maybe.
[708] I don't know.
[709] Why would you tell them?
[710] I don't know.
[711] Would you want to know?
[712] If someone in my family was a murderer?
[713] If your mom had been a murderer.
[714] Yes.
[715] I mean, if me right now, yes.
[716] Yeah.
[717] That would be...
[718] I don't think I'd want to find out if my grandma had been a murderer.
[719] No, I don't think I'd want to know.
[720] You would not?
[721] Mm -mm.
[722] Because you just want to keep her as you know her?
[723] Yeah.
[724] You know?
[725] Yeah, that makes sense.
[726] Especially at that age, it would make me so sad for her.
[727] Yeah.
[728] She, you know, that, I don't know.
[729] What else?
[730] I can't find this movie.
[731] I don't care.
[732] Tell me more.
[733] Sorry.
[734] No, that's all I have.
[735] Okay.
[736] That's a good one.
[737] She's a good one.
[738] She's a good one.
[739] Also, I have this very bad habit where once the actual murder is over, I don't, I know people like the facts and stuff like that.
[740] It's all wrapping up to you at that point.
[741] Listen, we don't care about the 1500s.
[742] and we don't care about.
[743] I just want to talk about a child murdering, a child is insanity.
[744] What if you were, like, hiking through the forest next to that empty lot and you fucking looked over?
[745] That is the most upsetting.
[746] And saw the kid killing the kid?
[747] A little girl strangling a three -year -old.
[748] It's insanity.
[749] I just don't think that they have the capacity to understand what the, don't, like, what, like, when she said the thing about the cat, it doesn't hurt the cat.
[750] I don't think she understood other people and partly because probably she was psycho but probably also because she was too young to know the permanence of death.
[751] Yeah, those are big concepts.
[752] But also if she was a true psychopath which the doctors in the trial said she was a child psychopath that's very dangerous to other children.
[753] But that means that she doesn't have any empathy.
[754] so of course it she wouldn't think it would hurt the cat because she doesn't think of anything else as having emotions and yeah well it's those two kids who kidnapped a little a younger toddler from the mall a mall in england what was their names those boys those little boys yeah they killed him the weirdest part of that whole story which i'll never do because everyone fucking knows it and i just don't know bulgar was his last name bulgar anyways they shoved a battery up his butt and to me that is such a signal that they didn't understand like they were trying to get him to work again oh he was dead when they did that and to me it's like i mean i could be completely wrong they were just a theory though that's interesting they might have just been sodomizing him and being horrible well and they also they could be that could have like they could be mimicking what was happening to one of or both of them totally but a battery specifically it's almost like a little toy yeah like That's how it is on, like, an adult.
[755] Yeah.
[756] Those kids are also fucking changed their names and are out now.
[757] Really?
[758] Yeah.
[759] Because they're out and living.
[760] Yeah, because it happened so long ago.
[761] I mean, in this movie, in the Mary Bell movie, it is very convincing of, like, is something she did as a damaged, damaged child.
[762] And now she's don't let her have a life.
[763] She's paid the price for being in jail for 25 years or whatever it is.
[764] Yeah, but I bet the people who don't are.
[765] argue that is just the parents and the families of the two little boys who got killed, you know.
[766] Or like now she's often having a life and now she's a grandmother and they don't have anything.
[767] Yeah.
[768] No, I know.
[769] It's rough.
[770] It is.
[771] It's crazy.
[772] What's your favorite murder of the week?
[773] Mine is also a childy old marker.
[774] Is it really?
[775] Yeah.
[776] Man, this is the wrong episode for parents.
[777] It is very weird.
[778] That's crazy.
[779] It's very weird.
[780] But this is, this is by this is a parent a parental murder and this one stuck with me for all has stuck with me I've read about it for a long time because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed um oh you're not oh you're saying the child is murder the child murder got it got murder yes got it so there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death that really fucking stuck with me i hope that do you hear that yes it sounds like thunder my fucking downstairs neighbor plays some video game world of warcraft call of duty yes call of duty yeah it's just so if you hear that i'm sorry so lisa steinberg this poor little angel baby that's the one that's the one oh my god it's heartbreaking this is the worst story okay sorry it's okay no you're right i'm breathing not because i'm okay so it's in 1981 45 year old hetta newsbaum and 46 year old joel steinberg who was a defense attorney who handled adoption cases, Joel was.
[781] They took custody of an infant girl named, they named Lisa, and they illegally adopted her.
[782] The child's birth mother had paid Steinbrook, the attorney, a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family, but they just kept her instead.
[783] They were Jewish.
[784] I don't know.
[785] I don't think that matters.
[786] But they, whatever, anyways.
[787] So this Hedda and Joel were a well -educated.
[788] They were upper class New York couple.
[789] They lived in Greenwich Village in New York City.
[790] At school, Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her arriving at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head.
[791] And she would tell them that her little brother, who was also a younger, who was an adopted child, had hit her.
[792] And none of them had ever made reports of abuse, which changed a lot of stuff in the system.
[793] So there's a photo from Halloween the day before this big incident happens that one of the teachers took of Lisa and all the other photos of her, she's smiling and cute and lovely.
[794] Are you looking at it right now?
[795] No. Get off your computer.
[796] What are you doing?
[797] What are you looking at?
[798] I was trying to find that movie name.
[799] God damn it.
[800] Sorry, sorry, sorry.
[801] That's so rude.
[802] It's okay.
[803] It's okay.
[804] And it's just a photo of her at her desk.
[805] It's Halloween.
[806] All the other children are dressed up and she's wearing her normal clothes and she's just kind of staring off and with this sad face, like an empty sad face.
[807] And the next day, on November 1st, 1987, Hedda, the mother, calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food.
[808] That's what she said.
[809] And when the police arrived, they found six -year -old Lisa Steinberg, unconscious, and she had multiple bruises on her body.
[810] And the mother had a claim that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates.
[811] um but lisa was nude and had according to the examiners um from st vincent hospital a huge a huge reddish bruise on her scalp starting at the hairline bruises and cuts that looked like someone had socked her on the chin and old healing marks on different of different colors on virtually every other part of her body oh my god i know and the little brother who i think was a um toddler or a baby was found roped to a chair He was drinking spoiled milk and was covered in filth.
[812] And this is an upper, like upper class Greenwich Village apartment.
[813] So fucking neighbors had to know about this.
[814] So according to initial reports on November 1st at around 7 p .m., Joel Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head.
[815] and what Hedda later said as the reasoning was that Lisa wanted to go quote Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father but he did not want to take her and then he inflicted the head injury because she wouldn't stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner before he left the but before he left the apartment Lisa wasn't conscious so he left and the mother Heta was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours failing to notify police or medical personnel um Joel left and came back many times.
[816] They were free base and cocaine sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts.
[817] And she said she didn't, Hedda said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers.
[818] Oh, God.
[819] And she was waiting for him to come home and fix her, which we'll get into it a bit.
[820] Don't do drugs.
[821] If you're going to do drugs, don't adopt children, stupid motherfuckers.
[822] No, don't.
[823] So around 6 a .m. the next morning, Lisa stopped breathing.
[824] And shortly after, Steinberg called 911 at Newsbaum's urging.
[825] Lisa died four days later in the hospital.
[826] And it was determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber -headed hammer.
[827] Holy shit.
[828] I know.
[829] It's heartbreaking.
[830] The St. Vincent Doctors, this is according to Joyce Johnson, who wrote a book called What Lisa knew, the doctor showed.
[831] a quote map of pain on her body yeah i know this poor little thing man i wish i wish i wish i they also let's see um the house was filthy and contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs and the couple was arrested on child abuse charges um new york law state stated at the time that if one parent beats a child and the other stays silent about it each is equally guilty that's good I know but Hedda was I mean is it because is that giving any understanding to the to the other parent who didn't do it who was probably abused as well and victimized we don't know true true we don't know but here's the so Heta was later found to have been abused by Joel throughout their relationship she suffered from nine broken ribs a broken jaw and a broken nose and if you look at photos of her at this trial, and right after this happened, this person is fucking disfigured.
[832] Yes.
[833] Like, this person's, that she had to get cartilage from her, quote, good ear taken out to reconstruct her nose, which had collapsed.
[834] Because he'd punched her so many times?
[835] Yeah.
[836] Oh, fuck.
[837] So she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the murder.
[838] And instead...
[839] That makes sense.
[840] Yeah.
[841] And, yeah, let's, we'll talk about, fucking culpability man Instead she was sent to a psychiatric hospital When the cops said that when they open When she opened the door to let them in To help Lisa She had at that moment two black eyes A split lip the bridge of her nose was gone And shards of bony cartilage were protruded And out of her nose She had a bandage wrapped around her frizzled gray hair To hide spots where clumps had been torn out She was hunched and moved painfully Like an old woman Oh, my God.
[842] I know.
[843] In exchange for her testimony against Joel, Hedda was not prosecuted.
[844] And Joel was charged with first degree manslaughter.
[845] Mm -hmm.
[846] Mm -hmm.
[847] So the trial.
[848] Go ahead.
[849] Why not murder?
[850] I don't know.
[851] I don't need that.
[852] Okay.
[853] Oh, you know why?
[854] Because later it was said that if Heda had called the ambulance at that moment Lisa would have survived for sure so so it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her right Jesus Christ breathing breathing breathing breathing what's around this right now sea foam green wall we're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment what do you feel under your hand I just remembered as you were talking describing her appearance, there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she had a Nussbaum wrote.
[855] Well, she wrote a book.
[856] Did she?
[857] Yeah.
[858] I bet that was just publicity then.
[859] And it was just excerpt from the book.
[860] It was unbelievable.
[861] She wrote a book about, she does like talks and about being abusive relationships.
[862] And she wrote a book about it that I didn't really want to include because I don't want to make this about it.
[863] Okay.
[864] You know what I'm like?
[865] Yeah, yeah.
[866] But we, you know, I'm not, she wrote a book.
[867] It's just the side.
[868] by side of her when she was young when she first met him and when she was arrested is she looks like an old witch and she was this gorgeous young New York woman yeah when she met him I mean this is the problem is I've never been it's not a problem this is great I've never been an abusive relationship before so I don't know that fucking the head games and the in the the um the way you have to rationalize things in your head because this person you care about, you know, is doing these things and you want to believe that they have no control over that.
[869] They're not doing it on purpose, that they would never hurt you.
[870] Otherwise, your whole fucking world is just shattered and insane.
[871] And on top of that, they're using strong, they're free basing at this point.
[872] I mean, freebase and cocaine is like, you're, you're doing crack.
[873] You're a psychopath.
[874] Yeah.
[875] Okay.
[876] And there was also some weird, like, cult stuff and they had been convincing her that she, like, my, games with her that she had been sleeping around and had been hypnotized and there was just some very fucked up mind games with the schedule so so all right so the trial so this is actually the first trial which made new york which turned new york into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom oh hell yeah fucking watch like people tuned in constantly for this um had a testified that they were clear signs of sexual abuse on Lisa in 1983 when Lisa was two years old, but that she did nothing about it.
[877] She said that her discovery came.
[878] So Lisa had spent three weeks with a Long Island couple that they had partied with, that the couple partied with.
[879] She just let them stay with this couple.
[880] And what, yeah.
[881] Okay, go ahead.
[882] Now you go.
[883] Nothing.
[884] I just, I'm disgusting.
[885] It's disgusting.
[886] Your face is telling me everything.
[887] It's very upsetting.
[888] And Heditha said, I guess I was changing her diaper.
[889] I observed a bruise on her vagina, a large bruise over her vaginal area.
[890] It was purplish black and blue.
[891] She said she did nothing.
[892] And under cross examination, yeah, she said she did nothing about it because she took it to Joel and thought he would handle it.
[893] I hope I'm not, I hope everyone isn't listening anymore.
[894] No, it happened.
[895] And, oh, another thing that when she had a quoted that when, he hit her and Lisa and she went unconscious, he yelled to how to look at what you made me do.
[896] Oh, wow.
[897] So during the trial that, yeah, they said that Lisa's injuries were severe, but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment.
[898] So this is probably why he had manslaughter.
[899] So the jury wanted to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second -degree murder, but they couldn't because, so they could only.
[900] convict him of the of the second of the second most serious charge which is first degree manslaughter so the judge then sent him to the maximum penalty then available guess guess what guess how long that is karen um god is it seven years eight and one third oh to 25 years in prison and he's a lawyer right yeah yeah yeah so on two occasions so steinberg served his time on two occasions he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing he never said he was he hit her he was always an argument that something must have happened with had a yeah wow but on june 30th 2004 he was paroled under the state's quote good time law meaning he did good time he was a good inmate congratulations he wasn't he wasn't a good father yeah he was a friend he was a rotten father and husband.
[901] That's insane.
[902] All right.
[903] Okay.
[904] It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior well incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds of the maximum possible sentence.
[905] After his release, he moved to Harlem and he works in the construction industry.
[906] He continues to maintain his innocence, but there was this really great New York magazine article where this journalist, I don't have his name, was like, clearly like, this guy is full of shit.
[907] He was interviewing his attorney who's like just a fucking dick lick motherfucker.
[908] Excuse me. Why now?
[909] What?
[910] Why now?
[911] We say fuck every five seconds.
[912] Why, excuse myself?
[913] Excuse me. Excuse me for that.
[914] Something about dick lick motherfucker was a little more.
[915] That was one step too far.
[916] Weirdly, that's something I say on the regular dick lick motherfucker.
[917] Learn it.
[918] In the magazine article he like needled Joel and finally Steinberg finally admitted that he quote pushed his daughter a little quote with the soft pad you know on your palm he finally kind of gave in because the whole article they were trying to the lawyer was trying to make it seem like Joel was the victim of this like media slander to make how to look innocent and him look guilty and it's like just what a piece of shit in 2003 Steinberg was ordered to pay Lisa's biological mother, the one who gave her up for adoption, 15 million for the, quote, heinous, outrageous crime of murdering Lisa.
[919] Wow.
[920] I'm a little bit like, do you deserve that money?
[921] No. But still, I like the idea he has to pay.
[922] And then, but then a civil suit, Hedda, was, wanted to collect 3 .6 million from Joel for eight years of B .D. she said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered, which at that point, I'm a little like, this child died, you need to walk the fuck away.
[923] Yeah.
[924] Or am I being insensitive to.
[925] I mean, there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this.
[926] But here's, this is my stance because I remember.
[927] The wanting money is like such.
[928] The wanting money is bullshit.
[929] Yeah.
[930] Because you, I understand that she was in an abusive relationship.
[931] I also understand that she was.
[932] was a drug addict, which is a lot of people don't have empathy for that.
[933] I do.
[934] And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time.
[935] Yes.
[936] You don't ask for money for doing that.
[937] You make reparations.
[938] You fix your life.
[939] You make your amends.
[940] You clear away the wreckage of your past.
[941] You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.
[942] The thing about it is is like, you were an adult.
[943] in this relationship, as mind -fucked as you were, as victimized as you were, you stayed in it.
[944] You chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened.
[945] If that hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it and the children would have still been abused.
[946] It's just so happens that Lisa died, that you got out of it.
[947] Right.
[948] And there's so many examples, I'm sure listeners, too, who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is, but you fucking do it.
[949] And that's your choice as an adult.
[950] Right.
[951] So the fact that this woman who had a choice to be in this relationship and then after a while...
[952] Then wants money.
[953] Didn't have...
[954] Yeah, the money part is problematic because it's...
[955] She is a victim in a lot of ways, but she's also a victimizer.
[956] Yeah.
[957] And there were two children in that apartment.
[958] I remember reading something where they usually kept the little boy under a flipped over crib so like a little jail that that's how they kept him like the old cage i mean yeah it's just so fucked up it's like i i read i actually when that all happened i read everything i could read about it because i couldn't believe it was real yeah when it happened so i was probably like 12 or 13 i got my hands on anything because it was beyond these weren't like people that you normally saw on tv that were the bad guys these were up scale New Yorkers whose lives had spiraled because of drugs, but they didn't just spiral like, oh, now we're homeless.
[959] Oh, now it's all on us.
[960] We're bad.
[961] They, they made these children live in hell and they killed these children essentially.
[962] And I mean, not to fucking defend drug addicts, which we've both been.
[963] So it's not like I'm fucking talking shit, but like not all, or not all drug addicts abused children.
[964] No. That's like something you would do before you do drugs too.
[965] It's not like That's right.
[966] I took drugs and became a child abuser.
[967] But I do remember reading something, that article I read it of, that was probably an expert excerpt from Hadden Nesbaum's book talking about what an insane control freak from day one he was and how awful he was and whatever.
[968] It, it, you got into it like it, it's, you could see it.
[969] You could see where she got led down that path.
[970] Yeah.
[971] But, yeah, the idea that she's going to get any amount of money, like the idea that she would even ask for that money, I just think is super gross.
[972] It's the asking for it that immediately puts her in an unsypathetic light.
[973] I mean, from a distance.
[974] Also, there was an episode, were you, you were probably too young.
[975] There was a show called The Equalizer when I was growing up.
[976] And it was basically, they remade it into a movie with Denzel, but when I was growing up it was an old white -haired man that was basically like some kind of ex -CIA or whatever who would get hired when things were really bad and there's no cops couldn't help and no one could help that's when you call the Equalizer you should I know that you know that yeah the opening credits for the Equalizer alone are worth watching oh my god I love it but there was an episode of the Equalizer after this story came out that was so fucking upsetting because it was a little girl whose father was this fucking abusive maniac but the parents weren't like Coke heads they were like crazy rich and it was this father that would like they'd all had to sit at the table and it was really really really upsetting and it and theoretically was like kind of like a reaction of like it was one of those ripped from the headlines kind of things what it's like day to day in reality for those people and by the end I think this little girl that the Equalizer was trying to help.
[977] I'm talking about this like it's real.
[978] But anyway, it was just that kind of thing that was very, it pervaded the culture.
[979] That story, people went insane about that story.
[980] I totally remember it.
[981] It's so troubling.
[982] And I think I couldn't find it.
[983] But I want to see the laws that were changed because of this.
[984] Because I remember reading at some point that there was like a, you must, if you suspect abuse, especially for the teachers, I think, you have to report it.
[985] Yeah.
[986] Like there's some kind of law came about because of that, but I couldn't find anything.
[987] Well, the idea that the doctors were saying her body was a map of pain.
[988] And then the teachers just...
[989] The teachers were like, yeah, we saw that.
[990] They didn't even say, like, we never saw signs.
[991] They saw it.
[992] Also, the idea that abusing a two -year -old is so fucking disgusting.
[993] Like, when head of found that the sexual abuse like you think about that of like who were those fucking people who what was wrong with her that she didn't this was her mother that she didn't immediately think to herself my child is the important part here yeah like you take her to one hospital to get treatment for any of these things and it's an investigation is going to start like right you know he left for dinner and was gone for hours and you were with her for 10 hours and I never a moment cross your mind to go go across the hall to your neighbors and say I need to go call you don't have to call 911 yourself but like but I think there was stories about the fact that she never left that apartment right like she did not leave it right and she didn't wear normal clothes I think it was always pajamas right I mean yeah I you reminded me of this crime I absolutely have to read a book on it now because I remember like I have everything is you know well this guy from the New York Magazine article says that the book by um fuck oh joyce johnson called what lisa knew was really good okay so maybe we should both read that yes let's do that okay did you finish the ted bundy book yet i'm like i think i've like three chapters left did you i recently was reading there was a reddit a m a that someone posted on the facebook page an a m a of the psychologist in the prison who um who was the first psychologist to like discuss talk up with ted bundy ted bundy called him the first time he escaped off of payphone i was like hey like and so he was like going to ask me anything wasn't like super in depth and great but it was cool i sent it to you was it it's not the one that got recorded is it because there's a video of him talking to a guy no yeah got recorded but he didn't post it audio audio video yeah okay there's a video of ted bundy being interviewed that i can't watch oh my god i've tried to watch it and i can't i don't want to him sit calmly and discuss himself like he's a star that pisses me off what does he talk about um he i think he's being interviewed by a cop oh my god but i but i but i'm not sure i can't wait till i i i've never i've never watched it we should do like a special i like a and we both talk about yeah ted bundy somehow let's do that we can like split it up into parts let's do it that would talk about this like weird playboy photo of him where he's like half naked have you seen this like naked on a bear rug kind of a thing oh yeah posing what the fuck yeah he's staying sexy as fuck he ted bundy is ridiculous this the way that story is written and the fact that anne rule as a writer and as a crime person herself was there at that it's the craziest coincidence or you know happenstance or whatever fate whatever you want to call it yeah it's amazing and it's such a good book it's so readable yeah well this was a fucking party of party of none none this was a sad child murder episode yeah sorry um Elvis guys guys listen oh go to uh we're on Twitter we're on Instagram we're on Facebook you we have emails we um we need to do another mini and read a bunch of hometown murders stuff that doesn't make me cry I need to go to therapy more than I already do there's just so many it just keeps coming that's the thing is we really we really dug ourselves a real hole by getting into this topic because it's it's all we do I know that's all we talk about I'm fine talking like it really makes me feel better that I have a point in reading about all these murders instead of just doing it like I did before yeah that's very true, because I'm going to read it either way.
[994] Right.
[995] But there are some that, you know, just affect you more, like, probably for a lot of people, child murders.
[996] Yeah.
[997] But, oh, thank you for, we love you guys, and we appreciate you listening, and you should tell a friend about this.
[998] Yeah.
[999] Maybe.
[1000] If nothing else, just stay sexy and...
[1001] Don't get murdered.
[1002] Okay.
[1003] Elvis, want a cookie?
[1004] The running meow.
[1005] Thanks for listening.
[1006] Bye.
[1007] Bye.