S5 E9: Let the Dead Bury the Dead | Rachel

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong covers mature topics that can be triggering.

[11] Topics such as emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

[12] Opinions of guests on the show are their own and don't necessarily reflect my views or the views of this podcast.

[13] Please note, I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] If you or someone you love is being abused, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7 -2 -33.

[15] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, please call 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[16] For more resources, visit something was wrong .com slash resources.

[17] Thank you so much.

[18] And I think part of the hard part was, is that, you know, it did seem like, I believe, my dad and he said he was so sorry of what he did and he knew it was wrong and it took me a long while to realize that he could be so sorry but yet because he wasn't doing what he needs to do to change his behavior he could be hate what he was doing but still do it and I realized it came to the point where I realized that I wasn't safe being around him it was no longer a matter of did he care or did he love us or did he feel sorry it was regardless of whether he does or not, he's not a safe person to be around.

[19] And I think that's where the tables are turning in our brains of like, we need to get out.

[20] It doesn't know me It doesn't know me well at all Yes and the intention was so big growing up Like my mother never let us be angry with my dad Like he would have just like screamed at it Like, I remember one time, like, after we'd moved to that tiny fishing village, and he got me a dog after years of me asking him to get a dog.

[21] And the problem was when the dog would, like, get on his nerves, he would beat the dog.

[22] And that dog was my baby.

[23] And I felt such shame and horror because I always felt like I would never let the people I love.

[24] And my children go through that.

[25] But I felt like my dog, which was kind of my child, even though I was only 11.

[26] And I remember just being so, it's, well, it's so horrific and traumatic.

[27] And I remember just being so angry and bawling to my mother who, you know, my mother went and screamed at him, was like, you can't do that.

[28] And I was baw, blah, blah.

[29] And I was bawling.

[30] I was just that I'm so angry.

[31] I hate him.

[32] She's like, no, you don't get to say that.

[33] You have to forgive him.

[34] And she would like stay with you and bug you until you said the words, God, I forgive my dad, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[35] blah, blah.

[36] And it was like, that's how you change him.

[37] You don't, you know, you can't get mad of him.

[38] You can't call him.

[39] You just have to pray that God changes him.

[40] And God will change him.

[41] Well, God never fucking did.

[42] So I don't know what to say to that.

[43] That became the thing of like, you will yell and scream at him, but you will never actually do what you need to to protect us.

[44] And that was the hard part, you know.

[45] And I, I think part of my autistic brain noticed patterns very strongly growing up very quickly.

[46] And so people would always, they, they would say that I had the spirit of prophecy growing up.

[47] Like I was, or I had this, sorry, not the spirit, the spiritual gift of prophecy.

[48] But I think a lot of that was I saw the patterns and people.

[49] And so because I saw patterns, I could predict what they were going to do.

[50] And it took me a very long time to understand it because I was like, I don't understand how to interact with people, but I always can suss out someone's true intentions, you know, like I always knew when someone was danger.

[51] And, you know, part of that is the environment I grew up with, but I think part of that was also the, I can see that your actions, you know, your action right now reminds me of my dad when he's acting like this and that means you're dangerous to me, even though everyone else is telling me that you're not.

[52] My best friend when I was there, she was one of the few people that I was able to make friends with that was completely outside of our circle.

[53] And she stood sick up for me when friends were, when other people were making fun of me for whatever.

[54] And I had just turned 12.

[55] I was waiting for her to come pick me up so we could go to our youth group together because we always walked down to it.

[56] And she didn't come.

[57] And my parents walked into the room and they said, Shannon's dead.

[58] And I said, what?

[59] And they said, Shannon's dead.

[60] And they said, dead.

[61] And I just remember, like, there was none of the hysterics or whatever.

[62] I was just so, like, shocked.

[63] I just said, how, like, what happened?

[64] And they said, basically, that her mom had found her in her bed and that I think that she committed suicide.

[65] And it was presented as a suicide in the papers, but it came out later that the drugs she was taking, she'd actually choked on them and died.

[66] But it was announced that she had committed suicide.

[67] Even at that young age, you know, and instantly it was, you got so comfortable with her and you liked her so much that you didn't want to push her away.

[68] And so you never told her about Jesus.

[69] And now she's committed suicide.

[70] She's gone to hell and it's your fault.

[71] Like, I lost myself, like, as much as a 12 -year -old can have found themselves before that.

[72] But I sunk into, like, the worst depression of my life.

[73] I became suicidal.

[74] I was hurting myself.

[75] Like, my sister Hannah, will tell me. me, like, around that time, she did not want to leave me alone in her room because she didn't know what I was going to do to myself.

[76] And my parents were just so put out with the fact that I just couldn't get over it.

[77] I remember at one point, like, I'd gone out to dinner with my dad, and I was opening up to him and being, like, really honest about how hard it had been and how much I missed her.

[78] And he goes, well, you guys weren't really that close.

[79] And I remember just shocked because yeah we weren't actually that close as close as normal friends are but to me someone who never had a friend that was the closest friend I'd ever had he basically was like yeah like you guys weren't that close I don't understand why like such a big deal and that was the point where I stopped talking to my dad like me my dad were like best friends aside from whatever else had happened like me and him were best friends growing up to the point where I think I became the companion that my mother was supposed to have been, like in a normal marriage.

[80] I think he put so much, I don't even, I don't want to use the word emotional incest, but it had a tinge of that, where it was like I became for him what his wife should have been emotionally for him.

[81] And when I basically was out of commission after my friend died, he was just so peeved that I wasn't on board anymore and I wasn't like what I used to be and I remember one time I mean I was so angry I was like angry at God I was angry at everything I didn't know what I believed and he had gathered all the family and wanted us all to pray together and I was so angry and I was like I'm not gonna pray no I was like I don't want to talk to him and he lashed out and he was like your attitude is so awful You don't care about these people who are going to hell You don't care about anyone else but yourself And like these people are People are dying every day And you don't care You are the most selfish like ugly person I've ever met and like Basically saying like I was the worst creature on the face of the earth And then grounded me and sent me to my room And I was stuck there for the rest of the night With no dinner Because I wouldn't pray Right after your friend had Yeah How old was your friend?

[82] She I had just turned 12 and her birthday was a couple days later.

[83] I'm so sorry.

[84] Yeah.

[85] It was listed as the youngest suicide to ever happen in Scotland.

[86] And it's not, it wasn't a suicide, but, you know, that's what they listed it as.

[87] So later they determined that she was actually just trying to take a, it was an accidental overdose, essentially?

[88] So what happened was she took a pill and the pill got stuck in her throne.

[89] She suffocated.

[90] But the papers ran before, like, the official report came out that, you know, she had committed suicide.

[91] And then that was, like, I think her family actually took the, actually, like, started taking legal action to stop people, like, saying that it was a suicide.

[92] Like, they started, like, suing papers and stuff because it wasn't.

[93] That's not what happened.

[94] But I, yeah, I've never felt, like, such loss in my life.

[95] And then such, like, people were frustrated that I wouldn't just, like, hurry up and get better.

[96] And I never.

[97] did.

[98] Like I became a completely different person after that.

[99] And my father was pissed that I wasn't available for him anymore, it felt like.

[100] And around that time, I think because my father had latched onto me so hard, my mother noticed that.

[101] And so my mother started like attacking me for everything.

[102] You know, I think I became like the epitome of my father to her.

[103] And I think she also was very jealous and very threatened by our relationship.

[104] She would always talk about me trying to steal her authority or trying to steal her place.

[105] Like I think at some point, like I was sitting at the other head of the table for some reason, like not even thinking about it.

[106] And she like flipped out because I was trying to take the place as the mother.

[107] And like people, like I developed early.

[108] You know, I was 13, but I probably looked more like an 18 year old.

[109] But people would mistake me for my father's wife all the time.

[110] And they would mistake me for like the mother of my, my baby brother and that pissed my mom off to no end.

[111] And I think she legitimately like saw me as a threat.

[112] And so not only was I dealing with all of this other stuff and all the other abuse and whatnot, my mother was now coming for me constantly.

[113] And her and my dad were fighting.

[114] So it felt like my dad latched on to me even more.

[115] So then when my friend died, like my dad treated it as like a personal betrayal to him.

[116] Like the fact that I couldn't be there for him like I was or that I wasn't interested in church anymore like he was like it was a betrayal to him that's so abusive and the fact that he said you guys weren't even that close it's almost like a jealous statement or just a brushing away of your feelings like the amount of fucked up that is I don't even know how to compute it was insanity some of it felt right calculated and I think some of it was him speaking out of his own like hurt of like I don't have this person anymore.

[117] I'm like, I'm your child.

[118] I'm supposed to be able to depend on you, but you're mad because you can't depend on me anymore.

[119] Yeah, it's that parentification, that making children into adults.

[120] And also, I've heard, I don't know if you're familiar with the term surrogate spouse.

[121] Yes.

[122] I think it typically can happen with like when a spouse passes away and their oldest child becomes more like a spouse slash peer.

[123] But it sounds like because your parents' marriage was so divided at times and your dad became so emotionally attached to you versus her, it created this whole other level of unnecessary pressure and responsibility and shame put on you that you had no control over.

[124] Yeah, well, and then it became a thing that my parents fought over because my mom would be so cold and lash out at me all the time because I think she felt so threatened by what was going on.

[125] And of course, my dad would see that and be like, why are you attacking her and would lash out at her?

[126] And again, this is when the, this is when stuff with Rebecca got really bad because me and Rebecca were clashing like crazy.

[127] And my mother, I think, being so put out by my father and my relationship saw mine and Rebecca's relationship as a microcosm of that.

[128] And so to me, Rebecca denies this now.

[129] And I, you know, was so wrapped up at the time, Lord knows if it's true or not.

[130] But to me, it felt like Rebecca was, had seen how protective mom was of her and would get me in trouble whenever she could which you know she was like four or five so she probably was nowhere near as maniacal as I thought she was but at the time it really felt like that and so it felt like another person against you yes and I think really in reality our parents were pitting us against each other in their fight against each other and everything anything that I did my mother would attack and I felt like I couldn't breathe you know And I'm like just like starting to develop.

[131] I've just got my period.

[132] My friends just died.

[133] Like that's a hard time to go through aside from anything else.

[134] Like when you're changing, you're going through puberty.

[135] Absolutely.

[136] It just felt like everything was against me. And I've always had very bad dreams my entire life.

[137] But like I began having like incredibly horrific dreams that I still remember to this day.

[138] And I became very withdrawn.

[139] I think for like six months I didn't go outside the house.

[140] I wouldn't talk to anyone else.

[141] Like they began to, like, they would refer to me as like the stone princess or like the ice princess because I just had, it became so much that it shut down everything and nothing bothered me anymore.

[142] But I didn't enjoy anything anymore either.

[143] It became, like, I didn't even realize how much I'd shut off until like I turned it back on.

[144] And then it was like, oh, holy crap, I literally have just not felt anything for years.

[145] and that's how I got through this.

[146] Because when I would think about it, I was like, how did I survive all of this stuff?

[147] I'm like, oh, yeah, I just pretended it wasn't happening.

[148] Like, I used to have this exercise way I would, basically I would like talk myself through, like I would visualize myself as a stone, but basically like stones don't cry.

[149] Stones don't feel anything.

[150] Like, stones don't feel cold.

[151] Stones don't feel pain.

[152] And so I could basically like mind control my way out of feeling bad about something.

[153] Wow.

[154] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[155] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[156] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[157] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[158] She's like, I can't.

[159] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[160] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[161] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[162] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[163] Well, you were holding something back.

[164] Intentionally.

[165] Yeah, yeah.

[166] Well, yeah.

[167] No, it's hysteria.

[168] It's all in your head.

[169] It's not physical.

[170] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[171] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[172] Or is it something else entirely?

[173] Something's wrong here.

[174] Something's not right.

[175] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[176] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[177] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[178] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[179] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[180] She had been under the influence and that she left him there.

[181] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[182] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[183] What happens next?

[184] Depends on who you ask.

[185] Was it a crime of passion?

[186] If you believe the prosecution, it's because, because the evidence was so compelling.

[187] This was clearly an intentional act.

[188] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[189] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[190] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[191] Everyone had an opinion.

[192] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[193] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case.

[194] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[195] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[196] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[197] So when we lived in the tiny little fishing village, our church had shut down, and for a while we didn't go to church at all.

[198] It was very, I think, traumatic for both of my parents.

[199] but also my dad was just like obsessed with the church in Hawaii and my mom was still obsessed with the kind of culty mega church that they were a part of from England and after a while I think they felt like well we have to go to church at some point because our kids are going to get the wrong idea so we started trying all these little churches around the area and it kind of became this game that me and my dad did after each time it was like okay like you know did you like the church or like, no, I didn't.

[200] And then we talk about it.

[201] And my mom would get really angry.

[202] She was like, you guys are criticizing all these different churches and whatnot.

[203] And that became like a big sticking point with them.

[204] But I remember we were at this one church that I actually really liked.

[205] And it was in a town called Dornock, or Dornach, if you want to get technical with the pronunciation.

[206] And I really liked the people there.

[207] And they were on the smaller side and their youth group would kind of do like the Sunday school thing where you were there for worship and then you left afterwards before the sermon started.

[208] And after a couple weeks of being there, my parents said, well, they switch out youth leaders.

[209] So it was like, I think there were like three people they switched with and each person would do it like one Sunday.

[210] And our father was like, well, we found out that one of them is divorced.

[211] And we don't believe he should be in any type of leadership in the church because he is divorced.

[212] So you're not allowed to go to Sunday school when that's happening.

[213] You know, we need to make a statement.

[214] And I really liked the guy that they were talking about.

[215] And I felt awful.

[216] But every single time that he was leading it, it was like we'd all, all the kids would get up like usual.

[217] And our family would just have to sit there, you know, so that he would know that we didn't approve.

[218] And we came to found out, I think we were there for like six months.

[219] And then we stopped going.

[220] found out afterwards my parents got it wrong that guy wasn't even the one that got divorced it was one the church elders that they were sitting there that they were friends with which you know now looking back I'm like why did it even matter that he was divorced but I don't know it just made me feel so sad because I was like we made that guy feel like shit for nothing you know even if you did follow along with what my parents believe like well and they were mad that the church wasn't treating them like that they were mad that the church wasn't making an example of them so they we're going to make an example.

[221] It paints a really good picture of how against divorce your parents were.

[222] Oh, my God.

[223] So much.

[224] They would brag about it all the time.

[225] Like, even at the mega church in Hawaii, they had a couple, like, lead pastors.

[226] And one of them had been divorced two times.

[227] And my dad said, I am never, ever, like, I respect the guy.

[228] He says good things, but I will never ever go to him for advice.

[229] And I've never listened to him for advice because he's been divorced so many times.

[230] So he doesn't actually know anything.

[231] And part of me was like, maybe he does know like what went wrong and how to fix it because he's like married for the third time and it seems to be going pretty well this time, you know, but nope.

[232] Like my father did not have a concept of like the value of making mistakes and learning from them and the wisdom you can grow from that.

[233] It was like, no, you should, you should have known enough to never have made those mistakes in the first place.

[234] And if you did make those mistakes, then you automatically like there's something wrong with you forever and you're not worth like interacting with like that.

[235] that became our life we would shop around to other churches we'd never really stay and like sometimes we would go back a couple times and we'd kind of make friends and nope there was always a reason why something was wrong with it or you know why it was sinful or why they were you know something was wrong and my mother of course was also mad because she just wanted to go back to the church we were a part of and didn't want anything new and all my father wanted was to go to hawaii like that's all that mattered And then my parents decided that we were going to move, but they always had this concept of no one can ever know our plans because we could be in danger or they could do something if they knew.

[236] And I don't understand why they thought that or why they told us that, but we were planning, before we've moved to the fishing village from Can you see, for a year we were planning to move up there, and we weren't allowed to tell anyone, people that we had known for years until we literally like a couple of weeks before we left.

[237] And this happened multiple times.

[238] It happened before we went to Hawaii.

[239] There was always this sense of we have to protect each other because people are after us.

[240] Growing up, they would always talk about how they would tell people, we're moving to the highlands of Scotland to save souls and plant a church and everyone be like, oh, there's nothing there.

[241] The people are so hard to deal with.

[242] They were like, you know what?

[243] It was the Christians that we had a hard type dealing with.

[244] They hated us and non -Christians loved us.

[245] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[246] And so there was always this idea that the other churches didn't like us and wanted us gone and so we had to like be very careful about giving them uh any type of foothole to like get rid of us my parents were very much obsessed with the idea of dead churches dead religious churches like the pharisees and then churches that were alive and full of the holy spirit which is a very i think evangelical charismatic thing to say but they were like anyone that they didn't like something was dead and religious so they said that these you know it was this idea of like they're not actively working against us but the devil you know has like made them less effective for god and so you know they don't like us because we're doing what's right that was a big thing like if you had enemies it meant you were on the right path like if you were being persecuted it meant that you were really following Jesus or really making a change it really helps hide any worry you could have about criticism you know any criticism whatsoever is persecution or you know, the devil's fighting against us.

[247] And if you were like having issues or like people are like, I don't like the way you're acting or you were running into stuff that made life hard, it was also a good sign because the devil wouldn't be trying to thwart you if you weren't doing something right.

[248] It meant that you were like, you know, about to have a really big breakthrough for the kingdom of God.

[249] And so if things were going awful in our family and we were fighting all the time and I was depressed, it was like, well, the devil's just attacking our kids and putting them through a lot because we're doing God's work.

[250] So we just need to stay the course.

[251] Wow.

[252] And so nothing you said or did could ever make them think that you needed help.

[253] You just need to be come closer to God so the devil couldn't get a hold of you so well.

[254] And again, it kind of puts that responsibility almost back onto the people that are having the issues, you know?

[255] Did they use the term like the world a lot?

[256] Because I know in Christian school, they used the devil and the world.

[257] So growing up like not only was the devil out to get you, there were three levels.

[258] There were God's thoughts.

[259] There were worldly thoughts.

[260] And then there was like devil thoughts, which just means like the devil was actively trying to get you to like screw up or actively trying to hurt you.

[261] And the worldly thoughts weren't necessarily like maliciously pointed at you, but they were just as dangerous.

[262] And only God's thoughts were good for you.

[263] So this meant that even when we weren't overtly doing something wrong, even when we weren't overtly like messing up, if they didn't like something we were doing, they're like, well, you know, God's plan is the best plan.

[264] There's stuff out there that's okay.

[265] but it's not the best plan, you know, you can't be distracted by the world.

[266] So it meant like on every single level, even if you weren't, you know, like smashing windows, they could, you know, control your behavior and control what was right, which made it impossible to trust yourself or to trust your desires, you know, if I wanted something, that meant it was bad.

[267] Like if I actually, like, desired something, there was something wrong with it.

[268] Because if it was good, then the devil would be trying to stop me, to do it he wouldn't be making me want to do it and that always kind of propped up so you know ironically when I wanted to do Christian things or church things that was you know me growing closer to God or having more of a heart for God but when I wanted to do anything else it was the devil so it's very very controlling like tone policing like everything and a lot of times like they they love to find a religious reason for why they didn't like something that you did so if they couldn't find like an actual like moral reason or if something bothered them emotionally like you know they felt insecure because of this or they felt sad or abandoned or rejected but they couldn't actually face their own issues with it or admit their own emotional feelings towards it um there'd be a religious issue why that certain thing you were doing was bad and not of god which just added so many layers of like you look to them for everything everything like you had no concept of reality outside of them because they controlled that for you and especially for you and your siblings like and those children that grow up in those environments like if that's all you know and everything that you've been taught how can you know any different especially like you were homeschooled right most of your life or all your life all my life all my life yep so then you're and you're only being exposed to you know certain groups of people so it's like, how could you develop outside narratives, you know, when the world is...

[269] Right.

[270] If you began to question or have doubts, that was because the devil was getting like into your head and those doubts weren't even worth having.

[271] So they didn't even like say, okay, yeah, you have questions about this.

[272] Let's look at this logically.

[273] Let's, you know, let's figure out what about it.

[274] You know, you don't like.

[275] It was just like, if you were truly Christian, you wouldn't even be questioning that.

[276] Like, you need to have more faith.

[277] Yeah, I remember all the time people saying it when I was in Christian school.

[278] Like, And I would try to open up and talk about my parents drinking or something like that.

[279] They would just be like, well, the reason that this is happening in your family is basically because like your parents aren't Christians and like that's why they're bad people.

[280] Not because what they're doing is abusive or wrong.

[281] It's just like you need to witness to them and then it'll be fixed, you know?

[282] Yep.

[283] Yeah.

[284] Or if, you know, we were hanging out of a friend's house where you had a party and I got into a fight with someone, it was, you know, not how dare you embarrass me by acting like a bad.

[285] bad kid.

[286] How dare you damage our witness as Christians?

[287] You know, like we hear we can help these people.

[288] These people are going to hell and, you know, we were witnessing to them.

[289] But then, you know, you showed them what a bad kid you were, which means they're going to think that God's not real and it's your fault.

[290] Wow.

[291] So I was constantly doing like mental gymnastics as a kid just trying to not hate myself.

[292] How could you not?

[293] Like, yeah.

[294] Well, and a lot of it, I, you know, I would go through times where I would dive so heavily into the religiosity and the church, trying to just be like, okay, I know I'm an absolute shitty person, but let me just do my best to like be obedient and hopefully that will like make up for it, you know, or like at least, you know, I know I'm a horrible person.

[295] At least if I can show I'm trying, I won't be like rejected.

[296] Yep.

[297] So all of that mentality is already there.

[298] And then my friend dies while we're living in that tiny village.

[299] And I mean, we were isolated.

[300] After, you know, that year of like trying out new places and new churches, like, they were just like, no, we're done.

[301] And my dad was very much, like, there's no point of going to any other church.

[302] Like, we just want to go to Hawaii.

[303] And I think my mom got to the point where my dad said, like, well, we just had to, like, I just had to pray and give her time to, like, come around and allow God to speak to her.

[304] And my mother is very.

[305] And my mother is very, very, you know, very much, like, that person of, if God's not telling me to do it, I don't get, like, a fucking damn, like, what you say or do.

[306] And so I don't know how my mother became convinced if she just became worn down or was just sick and tired of living in that tiny village and feeling like, well, maybe if we go to Hawaii, then he'll get what he wants and we can get out of here because we were so desperately unhappy there.

[307] And it was super hard because for a while my mom was very much like, nope, we're staying here.

[308] Like, we can do it here.

[309] We've been called Scotland.

[310] We're supposed to stay in Scotland.

[311] And so my I would see my dad be like, my dad was so depressed during this time.

[312] And I would see him talk to someone or have like a burst of energy and be like inspired.

[313] And I'd be like, oh my gosh.

[314] I like, I haven't seen him act like this.

[315] And my mother would just shut him down with like the most cruel and cold way like you could think of.

[316] And I would just see him deflate.

[317] And then he would lash out and attack her.

[318] So it was just this absolute mind fuck.

[319] And we didn't have any friends around us.

[320] Like we were barely allowed to go play with kids, you know, especially after Shannon died, like they really clapped down, or clamped down after that.

[321] Did they have a funeral service for her or anything?

[322] Were you allowed to do any of that?

[323] Apparently, I was told when the funeral was happening after it happened.

[324] And another weird thing that my father has is he doesn't believe in cemeteries.

[325] He uses his verse in the Bible where it says, like, let the dead bury the dead.

[326] You need to leave everything and come with me. And so he doesn't believe in tombstones or cemeteries or a way to remember someone that has died.

[327] because they're dead.

[328] That's stupid.

[329] You know, you need to move on with the living.

[330] So he knew the funeral was happening, didn't tell me. I found out afterwards.

[331] And then he wouldn't let me go to the cemetery and see her grave.

[332] And so I would actually like sneak out of the house.

[333] Like when he was away at work, like I would like, hey, I'm going for a walk.

[334] Like I finished school.

[335] And I would go to the little cemetery.

[336] And it was actually close to our house.

[337] And I would literally just like sit by her grave.

[338] And I never got to say goodbye.

[339] You know, it happened so quickly.

[340] And the funeral.

[341] happened really quickly.

[342] By the time I even thought to ask about the funeral, he was like, oh, it's already done.

[343] And I just, it just, it felt so unreal.

[344] Like, there was zero closure.

[345] One minute I was waiting for her to come pick me up and take me down to youth group with her, and the next minute she was gone.

[346] And I had, I didn't even see the family.

[347] Like, I had zero contact with anyone after that.

[348] And I wanted to.

[349] It, they were, it was just like, it literally felt like one day I woke up and they were just all gone.

[350] and it was so surreal and I remember looking through I used to love to draw when I was little or when I was around the age and Shannon always liked my pictures and I had drawn a really cool one I was like oh man I need to tell her like I need to show her and I had this like subtle jolt of like oh god she's dead she's not coming back and just like grief overtaking me but not knowing like I've never I was never taught to process emotions I was never even taught to like how to have emotions that weren't completely positive and so So I became this like like a watermelon that you've been wrapping rubber bands around.

[351] You know, I've seen those videos where it's like they just keep adding bands.

[352] And it's like something that you see as as very solid.

[353] But then there's so much pressure you're just waiting for it to explode.

[354] Yeah.

[355] That's kind of what it felt like.

[356] So like I would feel so sad.

[357] But I couldn't cry.

[358] And I would just feel this like tightness in me that like I felt like I couldn't greet.

[359] they were furious when they found I was doing that.

[360] And like even like the two times I've been home since then, I've desperately wanted to go back and like put flowers on her grave because I didn't get to like once we left for Hawaii and even after we came back, like I never got to go back to see her because like, you know, I didn't have any way to get there.

[361] I couldn't drive.

[362] My father was the only one who had a car and he wasn't going to take me. And even when we went back for my sister's wedding, we were reliant on my parents' car.

[363] And I had even tried to be like, you know, to say like, hey, let's go to Dornac and like I want to go to Ballantor and see these things and like casually mentioned it.

[364] And my dad's like, well, we don't have time or blah, blah, blah.

[365] And I'm like, okay, never mind then.

[366] There's just always this feeling of like I just wanted to go back and put flowers on her grave and like let her know that I haven't forgotten about her.

[367] And, like, she was still, like, a really, she was a really good friend to me when I didn't have anything else.

[368] And I'm in a point where I don't know if I believe in God or an afterlife, but if she can hear me, I want her to know I didn't forget about her.

[369] And that she was the only good thing I had in my life during that time.

[370] She knows.

[371] I had to, like, before stuff went down with my parents, I was talking to my mom about her.

[372] And I said, you know, I don't know.

[373] I don't even, I can't find any pictures.

[374] Like, I can find out of these articles online, but I can't find pictures, and I don't remember what she looks like.

[375] And my mom was able to find, like, pictures of her, like, either from the back or from the side of when we were in, like, an orchestra together.

[376] We both went to the same violin teacher for a while.

[377] But I still can't even see her face in those, but I can, like, at least see her profile.

[378] So I was glad to get those before all that stuff went down.

[379] So that was rough.

[380] And it felt like, again, that just adds to that idea of your grief is very inconvenient for us.

[381] And we feel like you, you know, even going and like being by the grave of the friend is going to make you more sad or remind you of her.

[382] And we can't have that.

[383] You know, we've got to move.

[384] We've got stuff to do.

[385] No, it seems like no emotion was allowed.

[386] No anger, no frustration, nothing.

[387] And, like, we'd obviously get angry and get frustrated.

[388] How could you, like, in the environment that we were living in, how could you not?

[389] And even my father would.

[390] And my mother would, but then it would always be, like, for some reason, she would be the one to gather herself together and be like, nope, you all need to apologize.

[391] You've all let the spirit in, blah, blah, blah.

[392] It was this thing of, like, if you did have a negative emotion, it meant that you had, like, submitted to the devil and given into that, like, emotion by allowing yourself to express it.

[393] And I felt like it was such a dark place for me. And I was so angry.

[394] I, you know, turned from hating myself to hating God and telling him that I hate you and blah, blah, blah.

[395] And so then I'm like, began to, you know, feel like I was going to hell because I had told God I hated him and technically blasphained him.

[396] And I was sinking into this massive depression and I couldn't get out of it.

[397] And I had been, like, depressed during my life, but I had always kind of bounced back and I could not bounce back.

[398] And when you grew up in a family that tells you if you were having, like, mental health issues, it's because, like, you got sin in your life.

[399] And I told God that I hated him.

[400] And even when I tried to apologize, it wouldn't get better.

[401] And I began to just feel more and more damned.

[402] They would talk about in the Bible where it's like if you have an issue with someone, you take it to them.

[403] And then if they don't fix it, you take it to the church.

[404] And then if they don't fix it, like the verbiage is like you just give them over to the devil.

[405] And I felt like I had messed up so bad by being angry that my friend died, that I had been given over to the devil.

[406] and that I no longer had a place and no longer was protected.

[407] And, you know, that idea of, like, there are demons and devils that can come into your house.

[408] And they can't hurt you as long as you're protected, but I was no longer protected.

[409] And, like, I began to be, I went from not being scared in the dark for ages to being back like I was a child again.

[410] Like, I was 13, but I felt like I was that young child.

[411] Like, I couldn't be in the dark.

[412] Like, it got to the point where I was so terrified in my room.

[413] I had to switch and sleep in a different room in the house because I was so convinced that, like, they were demons stalking me. I remember one time I was lying with the light on.

[414] I had my eyes shut.

[415] And you know when, like, your eyes shut and you see, like, a shadow move past your eyelids.

[416] I'm sure it was a fly or a moth or something in my room, but I had that sensation of, like, something, like, whipping past me. And it was like, I was like, I was right back in that little room where I was scared to open my eyes before I turned on the lights because I was scared I was going to see the demons, you know, flying into the cupboard or, like, under the bed.

[417] Like, paralyzed.

[418] And of course, just so much more disappointment and inconvenience to my parents because I was falling apart and was acting like a child again.

[419] You mentioned before you kind of stuck to yourself during that time and just sort of isolated more.

[420] Did they act just like annoyed?

[421] Like, come on, get over it.

[422] The first couple days, I would just like break down, like, you know, feeling sad or crying and my mom would hold me. And it was when I began to continue being sad.

[423] And then when I got angry and then when I angry at God, it was just like, oh, come on.

[424] So you shared that with them?

[425] You know, I trusted them.

[426] Or maybe they could tell.

[427] We were trained to tell them everything.

[428] Like, I spoke with my dad about everything, everything, even the guys that liked, even what I thought about sex.

[429] Like, as I was discovering, like, more about what that was or, you know, that concept of, like, saving yourself for marriage.

[430] We talked about everything until my father looked at me at that table and said, well, you guys weren't that close.

[431] Literally, like, I physically felt like the gates come down, like the shutters close.

[432] And it was just like, okay, well, we're done.

[433] And I'm never telling you anything I care about again.

[434] My mother, I think, I was still more open with because she would she was a crazy person and she could be very cold at times but she was also very loving at other times and you do I think no matter what want some sort of parental comfort and she was able to give me that every now and then or at least listen to me you know it was the thing of like they tried very hard but then got bored or not bored but frustrated when it didn't work you know couldn't snap out of it when I couldn't stop being sad and then it was like well you know Like my mother once, I think I was very open with my mom until a similar thing happened.

[435] She said, well, you don't really miss her.

[436] You just miss the way she makes you feel, right?

[437] Like it wasn't necessarily like her as a person that you miss. It's just her friendship.

[438] And I remember being like, no. It wasn't that, you know, you were so close with her.

[439] It was just that you basically didn't have any friends before this.

[440] That's basically what it was.

[441] And it felt super insulting.

[442] and not just to me, but to her.

[443] Like, well, no, she was a person and I really liked her.

[444] And we were friends and it wasn't just because I'd never had friends before.

[445] That's not the reason I'm sad.

[446] I'm not sad because I don't have that feeling anymore.

[447] I'm sad because she's gone and she doesn't get to live and we don't get to grow up together.

[448] And it was just, again, the way I think about it now.

[449] And I'm like, that was a, that's a very selfish way to look at losing someone to say, like, I'm not sad that you're gone and you're you're out of life.

[450] I'm sad that I won't get the feelings that you gave me anymore.

[451] I'm like, is that how do you think about friendship?

[452] Yeah.

[453] When you say your mom was crazy, what do you mean by that?

[454] It was it, her behavior was a manic or?

[455] My mother could be very erratic.

[456] The older I got the more, I began to interpret her behavior differently.

[457] So growing up, she would always have vestiges of what she would call it spiritual warfare, where basically she would just lock herself in her bedroom and play worship music and stomp around and pray and yell and clap our hands or whatnot.

[458] And when we were growing up, it was like, okay, she should be there for a couple hours.

[459] And then stuff began to get worse, she would do it more and more to the point where when we were in Chinook and I was going to this stuff, that was like all she would do.

[460] And like, we would have to cook dinner because mother wasn't cooking dinner or mom wasn't getting out of bed.

[461] And so she became more and more like erratic.

[462] But it was always through the lens of of like, well, I need to be spend time with God, or I need to, you know, have this worship session or I need to pray so that the devil can't hurt us.

[463] But it was like, we were basically left to ourselves for hours.

[464] Like our dad was at work and she was just locked in her room, screaming in tongues, praying in tongues, you know, yelling and stomping.

[465] And we were just left to figure it out.

[466] And she also, you know, got pregnant with my little brother when we were in Chinook.

[467] And that resulted in a lot more of that.

[468] And then after my brother was born, she was like 42, I think, when she had him.

[469] And she had hurt her back during the pregnancy.

[470] And then when she gave birth, she actually, like, ripped some of her stomach muscles.

[471] So she was bedridden for a couple months.

[472] So I basically raised my brother.

[473] Like, for the first couple months, like, you know, she would feed him and stuff.

[474] But I was the one bathing him.

[475] I was the one changing him.

[476] Like, he had a ton of colic when he was little.

[477] And I would spend hours sitting on the couch.

[478] And we had, like, baby Mozart or baby Einstein.

[479] It was like this thing of like, play like classical music to your kids and they'll be smart.

[480] And we weren't allowed to watch TV, but we were allowed to have that on for him.

[481] And of course, we just wanted TV so bad.

[482] We were just like, oh, well, but baby Einstein it is.

[483] So you never had TV?

[484] We had TV, but we didn't have like actual like channels.

[485] So it was like we'd watch Veggie Tales on VHS tape or we'd watch documentaries on VHS tape.

[486] So we never actually watched TV TV.

[487] They would make a point to disable that.

[488] So we'd never watched TV.

[489] We only watched what they allowed us to watch, which was usually Christian or it was like a nature documentary, which I'd love to watch, but it would be spent trying to drown out my dad who was busy screaming about evolution at the same time because he just couldn't keep his mouth shut.

[490] You're only 27 years old, and you didn't even have access to cable television.

[491] You're homeschooled.

[492] Yeah.

[493] You're in a very controlled environment.

[494] It's isolation.

[495] well and so like let me paint you this full picture so we're like in this tiny little fishing village we don't have any friends we don't have any Christians around us that you know we'd be allowed to hang out with I've barely gone outside since my friend died because I'm so depressed my brother's just being born my mom can't take care of him so I'm taking care of him and you're just like oh the weather I should remember the weather was always so dark it was always raining our house was cold because we'd never turn on the heating we'd used to go out and play in the forest and now I was too scared and depressed too and so it was like and on top of that you You've got all the spiritual abuse going on.

[496] The physical abuse really ramped up around this time.

[497] And my mother got more physically abusive with us while also being incredibly disconnected.

[498] Everything compounded.

[499] Next time.

[500] As time went on and the more we interacted with other people and the more angry he got if we embarrass him in front of other people, it was like, oh, we're some things to you, not some ones.

[501] Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[502] Music on this episode from Gladrags, check out their album, Wonder Under.

[503] If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

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[506] Thank you so much for listening.

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[510] Scammers are best known for living the high life until, they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[511] I'm Sachi Cole.

[512] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[513] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[514] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[515] then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[516] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

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