Paris Hilton

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Pepperd.

[2] I'm joined by Plily Nadmonds.

[3] Hello.

[4] We have the first influencer on planet Earth.

[5] Oh, my God.

[6] OI, original influencer.

[7] OI, original influencer.

[8] Paris Hilton.

[9] We've been talking about Paris Hilton for a couple years now.

[10] Ever since we saw that documentary about her, we absolutely loved it.

[11] Yes.

[12] And we felt a tremendous amount of compassion for her story.

[13] Yeah, much more complicated than we originally knew.

[14] Yes, yes.

[15] Heartbreaking kind of trauma.

[16] She, of course, is also a very successful entrepreneur.

[17] She has built a global empire as a DJ entrepreneur, recording artist, philanthropist, philanthropist, actress, model, and author.

[18] And she has a new bookout, a memoir called Paris, the memoir.

[19] Yeah.

[20] Yeah.

[21] Keeping it simple.

[22] I think that if you are someone who can reasonably declare a goal of earning a billion dollars, you are successful.

[23] Yeah, I have no dreams of hitting a billion dollars.

[24] There's no way.

[25] It's not going to have, like it's not even remotely in reach.

[26] I haven't invented anything.

[27] No. But that's a reasonable goal for her.

[28] No, she's going to get there.

[29] Yeah, we talk about it.

[30] I urge her to try to not get there, but I think it falls.

[31] Fell on deaf ears.

[32] No, she's listening to regret.

[33] Can we still say that?

[34] Oh, I can always say that because I was born deaf.

[35] Oh, my God.

[36] Fell on deaf ears.

[37] Do you think that one's on its way out?

[38] Yes, and I also think.

[39] But I was born deaf, so I am going to feel included to be able to say that.

[40] There's got to be sum up silver line.

[41] I do wonder that.

[42] Like, if you're born with an elbow out, okay.

[43] This is going to be quite an analogy I can feel it.

[44] Listen, listen.

[45] Okay.

[46] If you're born.

[47] with nine toes, okay?

[48] And then you're, they deliver you and it's a baby with nine toes.

[49] And then they, oh wait, here's that other toe.

[50] They see it in the woman's vagina.

[51] They get that toe out.

[52] But it's been like three weeks, okay?

[53] Uh -huh.

[54] So then they attach the toe.

[55] Yeah.

[56] Are we to say that that person is someone who was born with nine toes?

[57] Yes.

[58] And then they can like, right.

[59] ride on that, even though their toes are totally fine for the rest of their life?

[60] Yes, yes.

[61] Well, listen, this is too triggering of an example, but the analogy would be like, oh, because someone got molested 40 years ago and they never got molested again.

[62] They don't get to say there's someone who got molested.

[63] If you're born deaf and you're deaf for two years and it alters your life and you get a nickname that's Carried with your...

[64] Oh, you got a nickname?

[65] Grunt.

[66] You know, my nickname is grunt.

[67] That's cute.

[68] It's not a terrible one.

[69] But, yes, I'm going to say, fell on death years.

[70] Worry -free.

[71] Okay.

[72] Sorry, Paris Hilton.

[73] Sorry.

[74] Do you think anyone has ever had a toe left in?

[75] The womb.

[76] The womb.

[77] I do not.

[78] I just don't think that ever happened.

[79] But go to Sinty and Animals.

[80] to see if they have a record .org.

[81] I'm so sorry.

[82] Everybody, please enjoyed this really wonderful interview.

[83] I really, really enjoyed it.

[84] It was quite pleasant.

[85] Yeah, she's wonderful.

[86] Please check out Paris, the memoir, and enjoy now Paris Hilton.

[87] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[88] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[89] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[90] Do you remember how good this song was?

[91] I bet you for now.

[92] We had a phase with it.

[93] I had to listen to it forever.

[94] And then my daughter and I listened to it yesterday.

[95] Yes.

[96] It's a good one.

[97] It doesn't know this song.

[98] It really built.

[99] Let's just feel it for one second.

[100] Let's get in the zone.

[101] Let's just feel it.

[102] You know, you know.

[103] you know.

[104] So pull me. Come on me close.

[105] Why not to come on over?

[106] I could kick it off.

[107] Do you need to survive?

[108] I get.

[109] I knew and then I forgot.

[110] I know.

[111] It's like make music like that anymore.

[112] No, they just don't.

[113] Is that ever in your set?

[114] Did I just inspire you to put it in one of your set?

[115] I'm going to now.

[116] You're going to put it in.

[117] Do you eat coffee or anything?

[118] Sure.

[119] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[120] Let's do that.

[121] Thank you.

[122] Wobby wobble, Bree.

[123] some while we...

[124] He has a special touch.

[125] He really does.

[126] He's a gentleman's touch when it comes to coffee brewing.

[127] You smell tremendous.

[128] I'm enjoying the shit out of it all the way from over here.

[129] You get a little...

[130] Yeah, it's night, very nice.

[131] My new fragrance, love rush.

[132] It's yours.

[133] Number 29.

[134] Number 29.

[135] You didn't even pay us to say that.

[136] And we just came out.

[137] Yeah, it came out organically.

[138] Yeah.

[139] It was a fragrance that I wore for my wedding and everyone was just like, oh my God, what are you wearing?

[140] So I was like, I need to just put this as my next fragrance.

[141] Yes.

[142] Do you go to the weird perfumery and then start smelling all these different samples and then like find a bingo?

[143] I used to, but I've been doing it for so many years now and I'm like, you guys just come to me. So I'll do a lot of fragrances.

[144] I'm not driving all the way over there.

[145] Yeah.

[146] And how do you clear your sinuses in between sniffs?

[147] You have to smell this other little.

[148] Like a palette cleanser.

[149] This pallet cleanse.

[150] I don't forget what it's called, but you just smell that and then you just go back and forth.

[151] Yeah.

[152] I've heard you can do that with coffee beans.

[153] Yes, it's coffee beans and something else.

[154] There's, like, another thing, but coffee beans is like if they don't have that thing that I can't remember the name of.

[155] I never understood that, though, because coffee's such a strong smell.

[156] Yes, but it doesn't linger too much.

[157] Right?

[158] You get a big, you hit it, wham!

[159] Hit it and quit it?

[160] Two seconds later, you quit it.

[161] Yeah, there's no residual.

[162] Thank you.

[163] All we've got in the form of creamer is powdered coffee meat.

[164] Would you like that?

[165] Yeah.

[166] Yeah, okay, good for you.

[167] We got to get some oatmeal.

[168] milk in here.

[169] Yeah, would that be them?

[170] Oh, wait.

[171] What's at the bottom of Wabi?

[172] That's old.

[173] That's old.

[174] You don't want We can't risk it.

[175] Some good culture.

[176] Cottage cheese milk.

[177] I've had it before.

[178] Good culture.

[179] Well, no, that kind of milk.

[180] Ew, chunky milk.

[181] At these like crazy schools that I went to, the wilderness camp ones, they would just like give us rot and milk and didn't get it and force you to eat it.

[182] I don't know if it ever made it to you how much we loved and talked about.

[183] your documentary.

[184] Yes.

[185] Thank you.

[186] Yeah.

[187] And I can admit, I went into it.

[188] Skeptical is not the right word, but I know my trauma.

[189] And then it's alluding to trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma.

[190] I hate that I was thinking that.

[191] I'm like, what could have really happened to her?

[192] And then when it hits, you're like, oh, my fucking God, if dudes ran into my bedroom when I was a kid and kidnapped me and fucking took me four states away, I was blown away that that had happened to you and so many people.

[193] And then, and this has happened with a few of the documentaries we've watched recently.

[194] The other one's the Brittany one.

[195] It's so weird to have lived through that moment, have not recognized how insane it was while I was inside of it.

[196] And now look at it and go like, my lord, the way we were treating these young women is insane.

[197] Yeah, it was fucked.

[198] Yeah.

[199] Not just the paparazzi.

[200] That was one thing.

[201] But now when you look at it, it's quite clear like, oh, that's an assault.

[202] Dudes are fist fighting like inches away from these women.

[203] then go to the nighttime talk shows and then just hear misogynistic thing after misogynistic thing.

[204] It's so surreal to have watched it all.

[205] And at the time, I can admit, I wasn't thinking like, oh, this is horrendous.

[206] Yeah, because we're all just swimming in it.

[207] It's hard to see outside of it.

[208] Could you see outside of it?

[209] Were you like, this is ridiculous?

[210] I think I had just already been through hell and back as a teenager, just experiencing what I went through at these so -called therapeutic boarding schools.

[211] and I was just so abused in every single way at these places that it almost prepared me for Hollywood in a way.

[212] But it was also painful because I'm a human being as well.

[213] Yeah.

[214] And having to laugh it off and be like, ha -ha.

[215] I would play into the joke.

[216] I made a big brand out of pretending to be a dumb blonde.

[217] You know, I'm not, but I'm just very good at pretending to be one.

[218] No one knew what I had went through as a child.

[219] So they didn't realize just how fucked up it was what they were doing to me. But going through what I went through, it literally prepared me for anything in life.

[220] And I think that that's why it's been hard for a lot of girls in Hollywood because a lot of people don't make it through it.

[221] This town will fuck you up.

[222] Yes.

[223] No, the fact that you're here in the condition you're in, I would kind of compare it to Monica Lewinsky.

[224] When we interviewed her and you think about the entire world was calling her a slut and talking about her weight and that she was 23 or something and lived through that and it didn't ruin her is almost inconceivable.

[225] But you would have had no idea.

[226] I met her in London a couple years ago, and she started telling me her story.

[227] And just from following in the media, she was just bashed when she was just a young girl being taken advantage of.

[228] Exactly.

[229] But the media would always just make the woman look like you're the villain.

[230] When the guys, oh, he's cool.

[231] It's been so many years like that.

[232] I'm so happy it's finally changing.

[233] Yeah.

[234] Are you like me and all?

[235] Given that I'm from a violent childhood, I also love arousal.

[236] If I were you and I had gone through what you went through, that whole campaign.

[237] Chaos.

[238] I actually feel pretty calm and chaos and pretty level -headed.

[239] And I actually crave it to some degree.

[240] Do you think it had hardwired you to be kind of functional in that insanity?

[241] With having ADHD as well as so much trauma.

[242] Yes, it was the hard times, but it was also fucking fun.

[243] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[244] I had the best time.

[245] I was just going out every night.

[246] The level of attention and fame was very overwhelming, but it was also exciting.

[247] Wow, I'm on top of the world.

[248] I'm traveling out, Nicole Ritchie.

[249] doing our show, we're having so much fun.

[250] It was exciting.

[251] You're living in peak adrenaline and dopamine.

[252] Yeah.

[253] Yeah, yeah.

[254] And I've always been a person who tries to focus on the good.

[255] Yeah, there's haters and there's people who are mean.

[256] But then there's so many people who just love it and they get me. Yeah.

[257] And those are my people.

[258] And that's how I try to think about it now.

[259] Like, I only do this for the people that I love.

[260] And then the rest of them, whatever.

[261] Life is too short.

[262] Yeah.

[263] You kind of got to tell yourself, like, well, not one of these people who's angry at me actually knows me. You really can only go, is anyone in my life mad at me?

[264] That's really where I got to stop my concern, because I can't answer to someone who doesn't know me if it was mad at me. And I can understand the character I was playing.

[265] It's like this annoying, dumb, kind of spoiled brat persona.

[266] Like, what's Walmart?

[267] Oh, I can't do this.

[268] Like, I knew exactly what I was doing.

[269] Sure, sure.

[270] I was kind of just playing into the character.

[271] And almost in the 2000s, that was encouraged.

[272] You see, Pam Anderson, all these other girls, are brilliant women.

[273] But we would play into this cartoon character.

[274] Well, in Pam's case, we just interviewed her.

[275] I love her.

[276] She's so fucking awesome.

[277] So fucking dope.

[278] You're not left with much other options.

[279] So for her, she was like post sex tape release, post all this attention, I just had to go, all right, well, I'm going to embrace this.

[280] I have to.

[281] If I want to work and thrive, there's no career in me trying to defend myself.

[282] I have to just make lemonade out of this.

[283] Let's start with ADHD because in the introduction of your book, it's the very first sentence, right?

[284] It's telling us that you have ADHD and that this experience will be intermittently scattered, which I love is a precursor to reading.

[285] But tell people about ADHD, this Dr. Hollowell.

[286] And I'm imagining this person maybe was the first that really explained it to you where you're like, oh, I get it now.

[287] I knew what it was, but some people would just be like, oh, ADD, that's just an excuse for being lazy.

[288] And people would just always say that, like, oh, you're a girl, you don't have it.

[289] And I didn't know for many years.

[290] My whole childhood teenage years, no one was really talking about it, so I wasn't medicated.

[291] I had no idea.

[292] I just had all this energy.

[293] I couldn't focus.

[294] I couldn't remember anything.

[295] It was just a nightmare and everyone would call me stupid for it.

[296] It wasn't until recently when I watched this documentary, The Disruptors, which is all about ADHD and Dr. Hollow was in it.

[297] And after that, I was like, I need to talk to this guy.

[298] And he just described that having ADHD is like having a Ferrari engine for a brain with the brakes of a bicycle.

[299] So you just keep going, you're never stopping.

[300] Because it could be a superpower if you harness it in the correct way.

[301] Otherwise, you're up for disaster if you don't handle it the right way.

[302] So you need to know it and check yourself.

[303] You said that he delineates the difference between an ADHD brain and a neurotypical brain, right?

[304] That your frontal lobe isn't as powerful as your midbrain, which is like impulse galore.

[305] Yeah.

[306] Which is a good thing and a bad thing.

[307] Right.

[308] Yeah.

[309] I feel like my career has really been defined because of that because I've been someone who takes risks and I've been someone who just does things.

[310] Like even with the simple life, no one was doing reality TV.

[311] It was such a new frontier.

[312] My parents, everyone was like, do not do this.

[313] It's going to ruin your life because they didn't know.

[314] You invented the selfie.

[315] That's when we were watching the doc.

[316] I was like, she invented that.

[317] Yeah, there was an inventor and it's her.

[318] It's crazy to think.

[319] I don't know if that's a good thing or about it.

[320] No, but I mean, you did start so much.

[321] many things that you, I don't think you necessarily get credit for, but in the zeitgeist and in the culture, which is amazing.

[322] Thank you.

[323] Well, when I look at your book and we go through all the many things, the reoccurring emotion seems to me, and one I can relate deeply with is shame, just being the most prevailing feeling you have.

[324] And there's several incidents that lead us there.

[325] But I wonder if, when you're used to carrying so much shame, for me, there's a switch that's like, yeah man so why not throw this in the mix like I don't really give a fuck now you're upset about that I already think I'm a piece of shit so it's like you think I'm vain because I take this picture I can live with that I already hate myself or I'm ashamed of myself shame is such a powerful emotion and it could paralyze you and like take over your life in a way and I had so much shame on me for so many years for things that I didn't even do things that people did bad to me but for some reason I would blame myself and then going through what I went through being a abused all these schools, that just, again, made even more shame.

[326] And then now as an adult, I realize this is not my shame to hold.

[327] The people who hurt me are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

[328] Yeah.

[329] And that's been so empowering.

[330] And that's a huge message in my book that I want so many other young boys and girls to know who have been through similar situations that it's not their fault.

[331] And they shouldn't hate themselves for what other people did to them.

[332] Yeah.

[333] Well, your book in our podcast have a very similar agenda, which is life's fucking messy.

[334] don't regret your shit they're the things that give you wisdom i love that now quickly i always ask people who've written memoirs this is it now scary to have to go out and talk like it's one thing to write it right you're by yourself or whatever your process was and you have a lot of control over how it comes out and you can be brave and exposing and vulnerable and that's one experience but then it comes out and then you've got to like go here and go to the today show and go all these different places and now take this very private experience of writing a book and be very public.

[335] Is it harder?

[336] Oh, yeah.

[337] Writing it was like a diary and that was in comfort of my home and just being able to be with myself and just remember things that I had never told anyone, not even my family, my best friends.

[338] I didn't even send a lot of this stuff out loud because I didn't even want to believe it was real.

[339] So then to be going and doing these interviews, especially live TV, Nightline was my first one I did before I went on the press toward New York and London and L .A. one.

[340] So I live, literally was having like a panic attack.

[341] I could not breathe.

[342] And then I did some of the questions and I was just sitting there and I was like, I'm going to get some water.

[343] And I swam out and I was like, I cannot do this.

[344] And I call my publicist.

[345] I'm like, please cancel like this one, this one, this one.

[346] I'm like, I only want to do the fun ones or they ask nice questions.

[347] Like I can't go into this.

[348] Like I don't want to talk about this.

[349] And she's like, she loves you.

[350] She read your book.

[351] She's seen her documentary.

[352] She's not going to hurt you.

[353] She feels for you and like wants to get the message out.

[354] Anyone who would come and ask you mean questions, they read your book.

[355] They're a horrible person.

[356] That's just not going to happen after what you've went through and you've been so vulnerable.

[357] Yeah.

[358] And then I went in there and I had that kind of mind frame and that really helped.

[359] And then the rest of the press story just killed it.

[360] Oh, wonderful.

[361] Because I just felt, you know what, Paris?

[362] You've been through hell and back.

[363] You're a warrior.

[364] You're a badass.

[365] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[366] You should be proud of your story.

[367] And your book's on the bestsellers on this.

[368] Congratulations.

[369] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[370] Do you have the thing Dax has because you kind of just brought it up where your inclination is that people are out to get you because of what happened.

[371] My whole career, I've been like that.

[372] Just always scared, like always on the edge of the seat.

[373] What the hell are they going to ask me next?

[374] They're out to get me. This person hates me. So I felt like that for so long.

[375] And it wasn't a choice of that I'm actually feeling like, wow, people aren't out to get me. And they are rooting for me. And people respect me. And that's such a new feeling.

[376] And it feels so good.

[377] Well, how about also?

[378] Some people are out to get you.

[379] Yeah.

[380] And a lot of people are out to love you.

[381] Right?

[382] That to me was like not denying that there's a ton of wolves in the world.

[383] There's still lots of dudes who want my wallet when I leave my house.

[384] But predominantly, and I didn't believe it, the majority people are actually quite lovely.

[385] That was the harder thing to maybe embrace is like, oh no, so many fucking nice people, so many non -preditors moving throughout the world, but hard to believe.

[386] Okay, so with knowing that it is hard to talk about, and I totally understand, you need some experience doing it.

[387] My thing was saying I was molested, right?

[388] That, to me, felt like I can't do that.

[389] It feels self -indulgent.

[390] It feels like I'm asking for your sympathy.

[391] I'm not.

[392] It's just such an important element of my story.

[393] I'm happy you told me because it makes people feel open to be able to tell their story because it's something that's hard to talk about.

[394] Right.

[395] But for me, who's like you, so all I hear is the haters' voices.

[396] So if I'm going to say that, all I can hear is dudes going like, how much attention does this dude need?

[397] Oh, now, poor him.

[398] Walk beyond that.

[399] Do it.

[400] And then you have to experience.

[401] Oh, no. The reception is love and kindness.

[402] You've got to experiment and find that out.

[403] You can't just assume that.

[404] And I hope that's kind of what you've been feeling since the doc and probably now this.

[405] The doc was the first time that I really...

[406] Let me turn off this beeping thing.

[407] Hold on and fuck out.

[408] Oh, I didn't even hear any peeping.

[409] I hear everything.

[410] Ooh, I love your shoes.

[411] Thank you.

[412] Are they also yours?

[413] Are we just picking up everything?

[414] Yeah.

[415] There's Sergio Rossi.

[416] Very cute.

[417] Thanks.

[418] I actually just wore different shoes on Jimmy's show the other night in New York.

[419] I've been wondering if we could maybe make that a thing.

[420] Two totally different shoes.

[421] Yeah.

[422] When did you realize it?

[423] Mid interview or afterwards?

[424] Like when they went to commercial, they're like, do you realize you have two different shoes on?

[425] Oh, God.

[426] What?

[427] Were they dramatically different colors?

[428] Yeah, like one was all covered in crystals and the other one was like silver.

[429] And I was like, oh, wow.

[430] But it could have been a move.

[431] It could have been on purpose.

[432] People thought that.

[433] Yeah.

[434] It might start a whole thing.

[435] You could start a whole...

[436] You started a selfie.

[437] You could definitely start two shoes.

[438] I'm going to...

[439] Okay, we can go back to your question.

[440] No, no, no. We go all over the place.

[441] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[442] I don't think I have ADHD, but I certainly move through the world as if I do.

[443] I'm just an arousal junkie and an adrenaline junkie.

[444] So I think we should kind of start chronologically.

[445] You're born and brought home to New York.

[446] And then, I don't know, what age did you guys move to L .A.?

[447] He was born in New York, moved to L .A. When I was three, then moved to Palm Springs for a year.

[448] With grandma.

[449] With grandma.

[450] Not a great sign right there already, right?

[451] You don't generally get sent to grandmas for a year because everyone's super stoked with your behavior.

[452] Yeah.

[453] I wasn't that bad of a kid.

[454] My parents were just so extremely strict.

[455] No makeup.

[456] No going to school dance.

[457] No dating.

[458] No. I'm like, Mom, can I go to the movie with my boyfriend?

[459] We've been dating a year.

[460] She's like, no, he cannot go.

[461] I'm like with his mom.

[462] We're going to go to the Century City Mall.

[463] She was just so protective, I think, because I was her first baby.

[464] And she had me when she was 19.

[465] So she was just a kid herself.

[466] Did you inherit some of her fears, too?

[467] Things from her past that she was trying to protect you from, I guess?

[468] Probably.

[469] I think that generation just likes to hold things in.

[470] They don't really like to get emotional.

[471] Yeah, you said they're the masters of sweeping things under the rug.

[472] Yeah.

[473] He said, my mom's not going to like this book and I feel sorry.

[474] But also, she might not read it.

[475] Yeah.

[476] She actually did read it.

[477] Oh, she did?

[478] Yes.

[479] I was like in shock.

[480] I'm like, you read a 300, something page.

[481] She's like, yes.

[482] And what was her reaction?

[483] Yeah.

[484] She was emotional.

[485] She was crying.

[486] My sister was crying.

[487] They were both like, I can't believe you couldn't tell us any of this.

[488] We had no idea.

[489] Just sad because things like that that happened that are bad, like you would expect that you would tell someone.

[490] But I was just so ashamed that I didn't want anyone to know talking about to why I got sent to my grandmas.

[491] I snuck out a couple times.

[492] I didn't do anything bad.

[493] I'd go to like Nicole Richie's house and Bel Air down the street.

[494] We would like sneak out to like the Century City Mall.

[495] Like it was not a big deal.

[496] You love that place.

[497] I love that place.

[498] What was the vibe in Palm Springs?

[499] You just bored out of your mind.

[500] You would come home.

[501] I know this.

[502] You would come home on the weekends.

[503] Not every weekend because my parents lived in New York.

[504] Okay.

[505] So they moved to New York and I was in Palm Springs.

[506] Because they were nervous, I think, to bring me to New York because I was sneaking out.

[507] And then the teacher.

[508] Would we say that's the first very traumatic thing?

[509] Not really already if you're getting shipped off places.

[510] I would say you're already.

[511] No, this shipped off was after.

[512] Oh, it was.

[513] That was 16 to 18.

[514] Okay.

[515] No, no, I meant at grandmas.

[516] Grandmas wasn't being shipped off.

[517] It was just like living in the desert.

[518] Okay.

[519] Okay, I guess it was.

[520] Well, look, now you have a baby, right?

[521] I have two babies.

[522] My kids are never going to grandmas for a year.

[523] It's never happening.

[524] I'm not judging your parents.

[525] No. It's very complicated.

[526] Everything's different.

[527] I don't know their story.

[528] But you and I both know our kids are never going to grandmas for a year, right?

[529] No, I miss them too much.

[530] No. That's not ideal before the teacher, I'd say.

[531] And also, I'm sure the shame machine is already primed.

[532] Maybe it's subconscious.

[533] I'm sure it's subconscious.

[534] But if I do something bad, I could get shipped away.

[535] I could get removed.

[536] I could get taken out of this.

[537] So of course you're feeling like, I can't tell people about this stuff because that means I'll have to be removed.

[538] That's a good point.

[539] I don't even think about it until now, but I'm sure that I was always in the back of my mind.

[540] What age was the teacher incident?

[541] Eighth grade.

[542] This is so heartbreaking.

[543] I hate this so much.

[544] It's pretty creepy.

[545] Yeah.

[546] But you had a teacher that was grooming you, showing tons of interest in you and started to talk to you on the phone.

[547] Just in school would always be staring at me and then be like, oh, Paris, I need to do you stay after class.

[548] I'm just like, you are so beautiful.

[549] Other girls are not like you.

[550] You're just so mature and they're all jealous of you.

[551] All the girls at school were like, he's so hot.

[552] He was like the young teacher in his early 20s.

[553] Everyone was into him.

[554] But we're like 14.

[555] When you're 14, you think you're such an adult.

[556] Can I suggest something that was for me kind of a breakthrough.

[557] You carry shame and people go, oh, it's not your fault.

[558] It's that person's fault.

[559] But I didn't believe that because I know I wanted something from this person that I also knew in my gut I shouldn't be doing.

[560] So I betrayed my gut.

[561] That's where my shame comes from, really, is that, yeah, there were many times I was like, I don't really want to be here, but I want this thing.

[562] It's only later you can go, yeah, I can own that and then also go like, yeah, Nine -year -olds want things.

[563] But I almost had to first acknowledge that's where my real shame comes from.

[564] I didn't listen to my body a bunch of times.

[565] Or maybe in your case, it's wonderful to be told you're mature when you're 14.

[566] It's wonderful to be told you're beautiful.

[567] To feel guilty that that was nice to hear is sad and not fair.

[568] Yeah, because the age, you're just so innocent.

[569] Like, you don't even know.

[570] When I look into my little baby's eyes and I just like, you're so innocent.

[571] Like, you've never seen just how the world is.

[572] I was like, I don't want you to see any of this.

[573] Yeah.

[574] I just want to protect them so much.

[575] I think there'll be a whole period of compassion for yourself you'll have when they start hitting those ages when things happen to you.

[576] Because, again, my daughter's at the age now that all this stuff.

[577] And I'm like, this too young.

[578] That really puts it in perspective.

[579] So this thing with the teacher escalates, calls you on the phone and stuff at home.

[580] Yeah, I had my private line, which I was all excited about my answering machine.

[581] I had a private line too.

[582] It was the best thing.

[583] The coolest thing when you got your private line.

[584] You felt like you were running a business.

[585] Like, I'm hoping for business now.

[586] Sometimes at the house line, like, the person could come on and like listen.

[587] I know.

[588] And like hear your whole conversation.

[589] So I was like, I got the private line.

[590] I was like, yes.

[591] Good to go.

[592] So he like got my number.

[593] Starts calling me all the time.

[594] What are you talking about with the 14 year old?

[595] I don't even know what we were talking about.

[596] And then one night my parents were out to dinner.

[597] So he's like, oh, come outside.

[598] Like, I'm going to come over.

[599] I was like, okay.

[600] And then I just went in his car.

[601] forgot what he was saying to me and then he started to kiss me and then I saw these bright lights and it was my parents and they were like pulling out of the driveway and started chasing us through Bel Air, through Westwood I was so terrified we're in the car I'm like looking at him he's like shit my life is over like this is all your fault and I'm just like what and then dropping off I run as fast as possible into my bed and then two minutes later my parents come up and they're like where were you who was that and like they had no idea They just thought you were sneaking out again.

[602] Yeah.

[603] And they flipped out.

[604] And I was like, I was in here the whole time.

[605] I don't know what you're talking about.

[606] You just went straight to night.

[607] Yeah.

[608] And then they were like, okay, and they just didn't ever bring it up again.

[609] Until I brought it up like a few weeks ago and I asked my mom.

[610] I'm like, do you remember that night in Bel Air?

[611] She's like, when?

[612] I was like when I snuck out and I was in that car, the brown suburban?

[613] She's like, yes.

[614] And I told her.

[615] And she was like, what?

[616] I was freaking out.

[617] Right?

[618] Yeah.

[619] It's so upsetting.

[620] But thank God they pulled up.

[621] Yeah.

[622] For you, did you have a moment where it's fun fantasy, it's fun fantasy, it's fun fantasy, it's fun fantasy.

[623] Oh, fuck.

[624] This is overwhelming.

[625] This is much bigger than I want to be a part of.

[626] The kissing part.

[627] The flirting was like, okay.

[628] But then that I'm like, whoa.

[629] Became real.

[630] And I only kissed like one person in my life at this point.

[631] And he's in love with you.

[632] He's telling you he's in love with you.

[633] Yes.

[634] So it's just creepy.

[635] And what's so sad about that, and it sounds like your reaction was the same as like Pamela had a fucking horrendous situation when she was younger.

[636] And then her reaction was, everyone in the world knows this about me. I just feel like everyone knows this about me. And it just completely filled her with shame.

[637] So that's kind of the first big chunk of shame you start carrying around.

[638] Oh, yeah.

[639] At school, I don't know if anyone did know because I didn't tell anyone, but I just felt like they knew.

[640] Right.

[641] And then I would feel weird when he was at school.

[642] He was terrified to speak to me because he had no idea if my parents knew who it was.

[643] And he's just waiting to get a call.

[644] For all in his mind, they think that they've called a private investigator.

[645] Yeah.

[646] He had no idea, I'm sure.

[647] And I just never spoke to him again.

[648] And it was just awkward.

[649] And then the last straw was at the school dance.

[650] I had a boyfriend at this point.

[651] And then he went with this girl to McDonald's.

[652] And I was scared they would hook up.

[653] So I was like, well, I'm going to go to McDonald's too.

[654] This was like literally down the street in Westwood from the school.

[655] And then I come back and the nuns are like, we just call your parents you're out of here i'm like i just went to get french fries sorry they're like you're not allowed to leave it with older kids oh because you had left the thing you were in trouble left the school dance the graduation dance and they're like you're kicked out and then two days later i was sent to palm springs so i didn't even do anything i literally went to McDonald's right and the teacher was a creep so i didn't deserve to be sent for a year but life could be worse it was did we have fun hanging on with grandma she got like comfortable furniture and she's probably fun she's retired in Palm Springs.

[656] She was just such a force of nature, so confident, so powerful.

[657] Made me feel so good about myself.

[658] We were best friends, so close.

[659] Yeah.

[660] And we just had the best time together.

[661] She was just the most fun person.

[662] This is your dad's mom?

[663] My mom's mom.

[664] Oh, so where'd they come from?

[665] She came from New York.

[666] She was an actress when she was younger, your mom?

[667] My mom was, yeah.

[668] Yeah, yeah.

[669] They lived between L .A. and New York and my grandmother was divorced a couple times.

[670] We go to, like, the polo fields together in the weekend.

[671] Oh, yeah.

[672] And she was so beautiful.

[673] She passed away when she was 64.

[674] That's too young.

[675] She smoked or something?

[676] She had breast cancer and then it spread to her lungs and to her brain.

[677] And that's why you just need to get checked.

[678] It's so important because she didn't know for five years.

[679] She was scrolling and she had no idea.

[680] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[681] What's up, guys?

[682] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[683] and let me tell you, it's too good.

[684] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[685] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[686] And I don't mean just friends.

[687] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[688] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[689] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[690] We've all been there.

[691] Turning to the Internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rink.

[692] ashes.

[693] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

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[699] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[700] Okay, so I'm sorry, but the next terrible thing is around the corner because while you're living in Palm Springs, you're going home occasionally.

[701] Again, you love that Century City Mall.

[702] Yeah.

[703] You can hang in there hard.

[704] Not been there since.

[705] What would you do there?

[706] Because, by the way, what year do you suppose this is?

[707] Ninth grade.

[708] 97.

[709] Okay, so this crossed my mind.

[710] This is so exciting for me. I lived at that Century City Mall when I first moved to L .A. Best movie theater on the West Side, that AMC, whatever it was, 150.

[711] Yeah, Plex.

[712] And so, yeah, I lived in Santa Monica starting in 96, and I used to be there watching movies all the time and just perusing.

[713] And I'm thinking there was probably ninth grade, Paris and Nicole.

[714] I was 100 % there Every weekend And you guys would chat with older dudes And you would give out your pager number Yes Which is fantastic Yeah, the beepers The beepers So some group of dudes That you guys are interacting with Invite you guys over Yeah, they were these guys That we would see Often on the weekends Walking around And they had the beeper numbers And then invited us over And then some wine Wine Coolers Excuse me, that was so rude It's hot Oh my god, I got it.

[715] Yes, wow.

[716] The bar is low.

[717] Oh, well, maybe it's a confident.

[718] Yeah, I did.

[719] You think it's it competent?

[720] Reminds me of the simple light.

[721] Just chill.

[722] Oh, my God.

[723] This fucker is so comfy and there's all these belching, sneezing, farting.

[724] This guy's so chill.

[725] Okay, wait, we're about to get into something head.

[726] Yeah, I know.

[727] Yeah, we are.

[728] This is going to kind of like a jackhammer experience.

[729] Laughing, tragedy, trauma.

[730] It's like my book.

[731] It goes back and forth.

[732] Oh, that's life, right?

[733] Most people can guess where this store goes.

[734] So how old are these men?

[735] Maybe 21.

[736] Okay.

[737] And you're what, 14 -ish?

[738] Yeah, like 15.

[739] Okay.

[740] And they call you to come to their house?

[741] They beeped us.

[742] So we called them from a pay phone.

[743] Yeah.

[744] And then they're like, start address, like come over.

[745] Okay.

[746] And we went there.

[747] You and Nicole.

[748] No, no, no. Oh.

[749] This was this other girl.

[750] I didn't put her name.

[751] Got it.

[752] But you were Roof Eaton.

[753] Yeah.

[754] They kept saying, because at this point, I'm like a kid, so I'm not drinking.

[755] And they're like, oh, have this coolberry wine.

[756] I don't know.

[757] Like, back then, like, everyone was drinking these, like, wine coolberry things.

[758] Smearnoff ice.

[759] Probably.

[760] And I just didn't want to do it.

[761] That's what I drink.

[762] This is your thing.

[763] I'm just saying.

[764] I'm just wondering if we can connect on Smyxonof Ice.

[765] No, I think it's more of a boon's farmy type sitch.

[766] Okay.

[767] I don't know about that.

[768] great low volume cocktail.

[769] I kept saying, no, I don't want it.

[770] And then he said, come on.

[771] I already opened it.

[772] Like, please, just drink it.

[773] So I was just trying to be cool.

[774] And I'm like, okay.

[775] And then it's like blackout.

[776] Like, I didn't even remember until I was writing my book.

[777] Like, this is something that I just tried to erase from my memory.

[778] Well, what was clearly modeled for you was just ignore anything we don't like.

[779] And then let's just keep moving in this direction.

[780] Which makes it easier at that point just to not have to think about it and erase it from your mind.

[781] But then holding that in for so many years.

[782] Well, I think you get really.

[783] good at and what I'm great at is compartmentalizing.

[784] I can just fucking slam a vault door in my head when I've done stuff that's just so shameful, I'm like, we're does not gonna fucking think of that's gone for now.

[785] Because I know if we take a minute and hone in on this, we're done.

[786] Like there's no moving forward if we.

[787] It's too painful.

[788] Yeah.

[789] Just to even acknowledge that it actually is real.

[790] It's too much.

[791] It's too much.

[792] I've done it now.

[793] So it's been a lot, but it took me a long time.

[794] Yeah.

[795] The most horrific element of this is that the dude was whispering you're dreaming you're dreaming you're yeah that was oh my god like when i had the flashbacks of it and like nightmares after i started thinking about it again that was just like something in my mind like you're dreaming you're dreaming so gross yeah it's like something out of a movie it's like so weird just reading my book again, that this is actually real life.

[796] Okay, did this happen to you?

[797] So I started with a therapist a year ago, who I adore now.

[798] Even though I've told everyone the chronology of these things that have happened to me, I've never gone through them emotionally, as weird as that sounds.

[799] It's like, I can tell you this happened, then I can tell you this happened.

[800] But they're just details in a timeline, like an investigation.

[801] And then in starting to work with this dude and actually really now tell all of it, not just, this happened, that happened.

[802] My sleep was so fucked up for like four or five months.

[803] I was feeling for months like, I'm too vulnerable asleep with my guard down.

[804] I have to be vigilant and be awake.

[805] There was a point where I was like, maybe this is good for me, but I can't sleep anymore.

[806] It's hard.

[807] They feel so real.

[808] The nightmares, when you wake up, you're like, oh, thank God.

[809] It's a dream.

[810] Thank God I wasn't there.

[811] What's interesting is, like, I don't have any anxiety during the day.

[812] I really don't.

[813] I'm not afraid of anything in the day.

[814] At night, I have tremendous things because I can't defend myself.

[815] I can't, you're not in control.

[816] Yeah, I'm defenseless.

[817] I'm laying there, fucking unconscious.

[818] And that scares.

[819] the shit out of me. Do you still have nightmares?

[820] They've gotten better.

[821] They've gotten better.

[822] Like, it was really frequent.

[823] And I thought, well, this is untenable.

[824] Whatever this therapy thing is, I can't go a year without sleeping or sleeping this shitty.

[825] But yeah, I think it did dissipate.

[826] And then I think sustainable calm has been on the other side of it.

[827] But I think I needed to do that.

[828] I needed to acknowledge, I'm fucking terrified, even at 48 and 6 -2 and 200 pounds.

[829] I'm terrified at night.

[830] I can relate 100%.

[831] And I've not even done therapy since then because it's so hard for me to even talk to someone or trust someone that the therapy has literally been the documentary and now the book.

[832] Right.

[833] Which has been so therapeutic and so healing.

[834] Because the school was promised to be some sort of therapy.

[835] They market themselves as therapeutic boarding schools where you're going to get all this amazing therapy and support.

[836] And behavior modification.

[837] Yeah.

[838] They use that term a lot.

[839] A lot of that.

[840] But it's just complete opposite.

[841] Yeah.

[842] So let's delineate between growing up, I knew kids.

[843] We all know kids who get sent away to, I want to say it's like outward bound.

[844] Outward bound is like the nice one.

[845] That's a good one, supposedly.

[846] I don't know.

[847] I've not been.

[848] I don't either, but every now and then one of my dirtbag buddies, if their parents had enough money, they'd be gone to outward bound.

[849] And they'd come up pretty jazz.

[850] Like, that was my understanding of it.

[851] And I think some people will probably have that association with some of these that are probably really good for kids to get out and be competent in the real world.

[852] This was not that at all.

[853] No. What was the name of the place?

[854] I went to four of them because I kept running away from all of them.

[855] The first one was C -Doo, which is closed down now, which is in San Bernardino.

[856] I was there, like a few weeks and I ran away.

[857] Then I got sent to the wilderness, which is called Descent, which is in Idaho and Montana.

[858] I was there for a few months because I kept running away from there.

[859] And that was just hell.

[860] The people there were just so vicious.

[861] You would get beaten, strangled, punched.

[862] What?

[863] We had to live in a teepee.

[864] And then we'd go on these things where they give us like a 150 pound backpacks.

[865] And we'd have to go up into the snow, into the mountains for like weeks.

[866] And they wouldn't feed us.

[867] And it was just like literally like a cult mixed with those camps where they like beat you.

[868] Yes.

[869] Torture camp.

[870] I don't know.

[871] it was just hell and you couldn't speak to your family so every time I would try to write a letter or something they would just rip it into shreds and you'd get in so much trouble if you had one phone call a week if you said one bad thing they'd hang up the phone tell your parents that you're just lying and manipulating them and then you would have your phone privileges taken away for months so it was just impossible you were just caught off from the outside world you probably got it uniquely hard because I have to imagine you are triggering in these employees so much shit like however much they hate rich people you're You're hot.

[872] They probably were like, this fucking bitch had everything.

[873] Hated me. I had nothing.

[874] Fuck this bitch.

[875] I'm going to break her.

[876] I had to have been that way.

[877] There was one person at each of these four places that would target me, hate me, and literally take out all their anger on me. On society on you.

[878] All the kids were being treated like hell and a lot of them were being targeted.

[879] But me especially, I just felt they were just like, you rich brat.

[880] Yeah.

[881] Fuck you.

[882] You think yours this.

[883] You're worthless.

[884] It was so sadistic.

[885] Like the people who work at these places gets a lot of predators, a lot of sexual abusers, so many people who are pedophiles who have gotten caught, but they don't check people's records.

[886] There's no oversight, no regulation.

[887] There's no laws.

[888] So it's just like the Wild West.

[889] And of course, it's like the perfect storm for someone like this.

[890] They have control over someone.

[891] Yes.

[892] They could just say to the parents, oh, they're troubled.

[893] Like they are liars.

[894] So that's why they've gotten away with it.

[895] These places have been open since the 1960s.

[896] And now it's ballooned up into $50 billion a year industry.

[897] thousands of schools.

[898] How many kids are going to these?

[899] 150 ,000 to 200 ,000 kids a year.

[900] From not just private payment, also the juvenile justice system, children who are from foster care, children who are from other countries who maybe came over and their parents got sent so then there's nowhere else for them to go.

[901] So these innocent kids who literally have lost their family now are being sent to these places, being abused.

[902] No one believes them.

[903] They have no voice.

[904] that's why I've been fighting for federal legislation and I've changed laws in eight states so far going back next month to D .C., introducing our bill.

[905] So, yeah, they fucked at the wrong girl.

[906] Yeah, that's right.

[907] But it was just, it was hell.

[908] And then Cascade was hell, and then Provo Canyon School was the worst.

[909] That's where I was for 11 months, where I didn't see outside, no sunlight, no fresh air for the entire time.

[910] There's one story in particular from there where they put you in solitary confinement for God knows what infringement you did.

[911] Because I didn't want to have the medication.

[912] They were forcing us all these meds every day.

[913] Like every morning and every night, they give us like a cup with all these pills.

[914] And I'm like, I've literally taken Advil in my life and like vitamin C. I've never had any medication.

[915] Yeah, they were just making everyone zombies.

[916] I mean, it sounds like an orphanage from like the 20s or something.

[917] Also one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

[918] Yes.

[919] Have you ever read that?

[920] You should read that.

[921] It felt like you were in there.

[922] I saw the movies.

[923] Yeah.

[924] Right, right.

[925] You were Nicholson in this.

[926] Yes.

[927] You're trying not to take your meds.

[928] Because of that, they found them in a tissue paper in my room and they're like, Who is this?

[929] And they're like, it's Paris.

[930] And then they were like, we're throwing you in here.

[931] And I was just in this room locked up in there with people screaming.

[932] It was just like blood on the walls.

[933] Like freezing.

[934] Say it all.

[935] Urine, feces.

[936] No. No. I can't think about it.

[937] Yeah.

[938] It was like something out of a horror film every day.

[939] Are you disassociated?

[940] when you think about this.

[941] You have to.

[942] You just like want to survive.

[943] So you will learn ways.

[944] But this is where Paris is born in solitary confinement, disassociating and turning into a fantasy world, in creating a fantasy where you will feel good.

[945] Yeah.

[946] And shame free and empowered and liberated.

[947] Yeah.

[948] In order to survive, I had to just think about who I wanted to be and what I wanted to become when I got out of there.

[949] Like, I'm going to work so hard, become so successful, make so much money that no one, will ever control me or tell me what to do ever again.

[950] I also said I'm never going to talk about this again.

[951] So I'm going to pretend this never happened.

[952] I won't give them the pleasure of acknowledging this happened to me. Yeah, I just didn't want that to define me and I didn't want to think about it.

[953] You're so resilient and I have a good deal of fuck you and me. I also wouldn't give anyone the pleasure of knowing they got to me. That's like also part of the game plan for me. My mom has these terrible stories about my father spanking me. I wouldn't cry.

[954] I just wouldn't give them the fucking satisfaction and then it would escalate and escalate.

[955] So I have to make it.

[956] imagine some part of you too is like by not acknowledging it I'm saying you didn't win probably on a subconscious level yeah and I think also proving them wrong like I've always loved to be someone who proves people wrong man two years of an 18 year old's life is 12 % of your life was spent these bizarre places without any love or affection it was a living nightmare and is your sister at home during this time yeah I've always thought like I'm the bad one and she's like the really good girl But I wasn't even bad.

[957] I was just like any other teenager.

[958] I'll talk about why I got sent.

[959] I moved from Palm Springs.

[960] Then all of a sudden to New York City.

[961] I've never been anywhere besides Century City Mall.

[962] That's the most exciting place I've ever been in my life.

[963] I love it.

[964] I don't know.

[965] There's a whole other world out there.

[966] Yeah, if you love Zendur City Mall that much, wait until you get to New York City.

[967] So I'm like, move to New York.

[968] I start meeting all these people.

[969] They're like, oh, come to this club opening.

[970] Let's go here, this movie premiere, this event, this after party.

[971] I'm like, oh, holy shit.

[972] Like, this is awesome.

[973] My mom's like, you're not going out.

[974] You need to come home at like 10 o 'clock.

[975] So then I just start sneaking out all the time.

[976] Then it's just so much fun.

[977] Like, what other kid, if you're getting invited all these places are just not going to go?

[978] Of course you are.

[979] Yeah.

[980] And I just loved it so much.

[981] Then I started getting bad grades, failing out of school, getting kicked out of school.

[982] And then my parents met this therapist person who was like, oh, there's these amazing emotional growth schools.

[983] I didn't find out until later that these therapists are all getting kickbacks.

[984] and commissions from these schools.

[985] So my parents had no idea.

[986] They thought it was this amazing place.

[987] There's these brochures.

[988] These kids are smiling.

[989] There's rainbows.

[990] There's horseback riding.

[991] No nightclubs in sight.

[992] Yeah, yeah.

[993] They're like, this is perfect.

[994] So when people hear these stories, because sometimes I go on to talk shows, they don't go into the beginning, people are like, holy shit.

[995] Like, Varus is fucking insane.

[996] Even I was reading my audiobook, literally reading it out loud, these three dudes who I've never met in my life, every scene, I'm just like, cringe.

[997] like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm saying this out loud.

[998] When I went out the first time, the director and the guys looked at me like, when you heard we were doing a Paris Hilton book, we had no idea like, whoa, you're a fucking badass.

[999] Yeah.

[1000] I have so much respect for you.

[1001] Like, I had no idea.

[1002] Okay, so he was super significant amount of your life being in prison and then tortured.

[1003] And also, we got to add middle of the night gynaecological exams.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] Another thing I blocked from my memory.

[1007] And it wasn't until I was listening to these other survivors and they started all talking about it.

[1008] And then all of a sudden I had all these nightmares and flashbacks.

[1009] And then I've remembered vividly.

[1010] And I think because we were on all these medications, they purposely do that because you're almost, it's like you're roofing people all the time.

[1011] Yeah.

[1012] So it's like, oh, you don't remember that correctly because you had a lot of medication or you were dreaming.

[1013] That was not real.

[1014] But they would come in and target certain girls and bring us in a room and literally.

[1015] hold you down and have male and female staff who are not even real doctors and just be doing literal cervical exams on us and pretending like it was some medical thing but it wasn't it was just them a way to humiliate you sick perverts and they were getting off on it this is crazy your doc is the first time I've ever heard of any no one knew because kids are so ashamed that they're like no one's going to believe you or think you're crazy don't even bother telling anyone or if you do they'll sue people Like, people are scared to lose their jobs.

[1016] I'm lucky I'm in a position where I'm able to use my voice.

[1017] A lot of people are too terrified as people don't know.

[1018] And it wasn't until my documentary that people are finally being believed.

[1019] And just the amount of people who came out to me and said, thank you so much.

[1020] Like, I haven't spoken to my parents in years or my parents just pulled me out of their last month because of your documentary.

[1021] And just to make so much difference has been so empowering.

[1022] It does mirror the trajectory of the Me Too movement, which is you have no idea this has happened to a bunch of people.

[1023] And then when someone finally says it, then someone else feels brave enough to get.

[1024] And then all of a sudden, it's a waterfall.

[1025] And you're like, whoa.

[1026] I guess Weinstein's the clearest example where it's like, God, so many victims over so many decades.

[1027] How?

[1028] And it's like, well, until one person.

[1029] And then it's like, oh, my God, here's the full brunt of it.

[1030] Or by the way, not even the full run.

[1031] There's still tons of people that don't want to be embroiled.

[1032] I wonder were you thinking while it was happening to you, this can't be happening to everybody?

[1033] Was it even shocking to you to find out how much?

[1034] many kids had been.

[1035] I just assumed it wasn't happening anymore.

[1036] When I did my documentary, that was not the original premise of this film.

[1037] I just felt like I'd been underestimated for so long.

[1038] People had no idea who I really was.

[1039] And I wanted to show the business when I was and my brand.

[1040] Then the director, we started getting close after about seven months.

[1041] And one night, she's like, these nightmares you've been talking about.

[1042] Can you tell me more about them?

[1043] And then I told her the nightmares.

[1044] And then she's like, why do you have these?

[1045] I'm like, because it happened to me. I'm like, but don't put this in the movie.

[1046] Like, we're not talking about it.

[1047] And then the next day, she came to me and with all this research because she had stayed up the rest of the night and started showing me just thousands of kids, all these places and finding people who I went to the school with.

[1048] And then I was like, holy shit.

[1049] Now it's like this whole huge industry.

[1050] She's like, these people have been looking for you.

[1051] They want you to be a part of their movement called Breaking Code Silence.

[1052] And then I started connecting with the girls that I went to the school with who I hadn't seen in so long.

[1053] And then they came to my house.

[1054] And I just didn't feel alone anymore.

[1055] I felt like no one's going to understand me. No one will believe me if I told them.

[1056] Yes.

[1057] These people were there with me and like remembered me before all of this.

[1058] And they were looking at me like, when we watched The Simple Life, we knew that you were playing a character because you acted like, oh, I've never seen a broom.

[1059] We were literally on our hands and he's being treated like animals.

[1060] Yeah, prisoners of war.

[1061] God.

[1062] It's changed my life.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] I think in the dream world of human personal evolution, you would first confront everything that happened, process everything that happened.

[1065] And then weirdly, on the other side, be very grateful for everything that happened.

[1066] Like, for me, because I love where I'm at, this is the journey that got me here.

[1067] I'm afraid that a different journey wouldn't have got me here.

[1068] I now have a lot of bizarre gratitude for all the parts.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] If I hadn't been through all I had been, I wouldn't be the person I am today.

[1071] Maybe this happened for a reason.

[1072] And I was given this special gift.

[1073] And one day, I could use this gift to be the voice for so many other people and help make a difference and a change and stop this abuse that's happening.

[1074] And that is what's happening.

[1075] And I feel like I have a real purpose now.

[1076] And I can finally be me and not be ashamed anymore and be proud.

[1077] Like, wow, you're a warrior.

[1078] Yeah.

[1079] But unfortunately, the hits are not over.

[1080] So you get out of there.

[1081] What age do I start seeing you everywhere?

[1082] Pretty soon out of that, right?

[1083] Like, what a flip of the switch.

[1084] The Vanity Fair thing.

[1085] I did that shoot with David Law -Chapell.

[1086] We did that huge story.

[1087] My sister and I, that I shot right when I got out of there, like 18.

[1088] It came out when I was 19.

[1089] Then it just like blew up from there.

[1090] I started just getting hired for things, hired to go to events, parties.

[1091] Yeah, a lot of hosting things.

[1092] Inventa getting paid to party.

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] Were you like, wait, what?

[1095] When they first started asking, were you like, what is this?

[1096] I just go.

[1097] Do I have to do anything when I get there?

[1098] Are you like, what is this?

[1099] The big ones happened when I was in Vegas.

[1100] I wasn't even 21 yet.

[1101] The Palms Hotel was like, we want you to come.

[1102] We're going to pay you.

[1103] You're going to wear a million dollar dress with a million dollars of palm chips on it.

[1104] And then we're going to fly.

[1105] you in and we just need your ID can you send it to us and I like took my driver's license got like white out typed in a different number like we're 10 at us 21 sent it in and then that was such a huge splash all over the media that every club started offering me deals to come to Vegas all the time and then started doing it all around the world been more bad parts Kevin well but before then you should feel zero guilt I expect you not to remember but do you remember hanging with me at the Palms Hotel yes you do Yeah, I remember.

[1106] Okay.

[1107] I find that shocking.

[1108] How many years ago is that?

[1109] A thousand.

[1110] I was still a raging drunk and a drug addict.

[1111] Those days of the palms were fun.

[1112] What were we all there for?

[1113] I'm now on punked or something.

[1114] I started getting invited to these things.

[1115] I don't get paid, but it's like here's a jet and here's a free weekend.

[1116] And so I went with my then girlfriend of nine years, Bree.

[1117] She drank.

[1118] She did not do coke like me. So at some point, we're hanging.

[1119] But it's time for her to go to bed.

[1120] She's not a cocaine.

[1121] So I don't remember who all I'm hanging with.

[1122] But anyways, I ended up hanging out with you for hours.

[1123] And it was a fucking blast.

[1124] And I was in your hotel room and you had some spectacular hotel room.

[1125] And I was having a very out of body experience.

[1126] I'm like, I am with this gal that I see on all these things.

[1127] And I will say, I'm primed to have watched the dock because I hung out with you and it was you.

[1128] It was not the character.

[1129] I was like, oh, this gal is kind of cool.

[1130] She's kind of tomboy.

[1131] She's different.

[1132] I was really relishing in how different the person I was hanging out with was than the image I had been seen for a couple years.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] Yeah, it was really fun.

[1135] Thank you.

[1136] I cherish it.

[1137] I also had a night with Brittany Spears too back in the day.

[1138] Yes.

[1139] She's an angel.

[1140] Yeah.

[1141] Just so sweet.

[1142] Okay.

[1143] But then Rick Solomon comes around.

[1144] You guys were dating when you're 19.

[1145] He was the first guy that I dated when I got out of Provo.

[1146] Oh, no kidding.

[1147] Yeah.

[1148] Where did you guys even meet?

[1149] We met at this place in New York called Spy Barrow.

[1150] Also, Rick was very dialed into a very exciting group of people.

[1151] That was very alluring.

[1152] Yeah, I don't know who this person is.

[1153] He's also in Pamela's story.

[1154] Pamela was talking about him.

[1155] He's around with the kids.

[1156] Oh, God.

[1157] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1158] Complicated.

[1159] Wait, what's his job?

[1160] I don't know anything about this person.

[1161] Oh, you'll love it.

[1162] He sold this tape of them, made a bunch of money.

[1163] He became a pretty successful gambler.

[1164] Okay.

[1165] It's a pretty publicly admitted addict.

[1166] Wow.

[1167] Pamela talked about it, so I don't feel too bad saying that.

[1168] And I don't know him from sobriety.

[1169] But a bad boy, a boxer.

[1170] That is one question that I haven't seen a dress in the book, which is your type at that time.

[1171] How do you explain it?

[1172] Your dad's not a bad boy, right?

[1173] No, my dad is the sweetest.

[1174] Do you think maybe these crazy dudes you were attracted to, you thought maybe you'd be safe with them because they were fucking nuts and they'd handle some shit if it was necessary?

[1175] I think of what I'd went through at those places.

[1176] I was just not in the right head space and just looking for excitement maybe.

[1177] More chaos.

[1178] Yeah.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] I think when girls are at that stage, you just love the bad boy.

[1181] Some do and some don't.

[1182] Like, Pamela really did.

[1183] But it makes sense because her dad was fucking nuts.

[1184] Her dad was the town bad boy.

[1185] My dad is nothing.

[1186] Like, yeah.

[1187] Is there some element of like women who invite a tiger to live in their house?

[1188] Like, I'm going to be the one person this crazy person is kind to and protective of?

[1189] Probably.

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] I've dated a lot of bad boys.

[1192] Yeah.

[1193] Okay.

[1194] It's kind of the last chapter.

[1195] We'll go through it.

[1196] But the sex tape comes out.

[1197] And it's of you and you're 19.

[1198] And you're now 22.

[1199] It's like three years before.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] It was in the back of your mind ever like, I wish that thing wasn't out there.

[1202] Were you kind of waiting for that shoe to drop or no?

[1203] No, I didn't even remember.

[1204] I was in Australia on a press tour for one of my fragrances.

[1205] And my manager called me is like, Entertainment Tonight has like a 30 second clip of this video and blah, blah, blah.

[1206] And I was like, of what?

[1207] So I just assumed it was like a fake one because the internet was happening.

[1208] And there was lookalikes of me. And I just did not even remember.

[1209] It was like a blacked out.

[1210] So I was in shock.

[1211] I didn't believe it until I actually saw it.

[1212] And now this starts the thing we saw with Pamela and hers, the thing we saw with Monica Lewinsky.

[1213] This starts now the full national slut shaming, horrific.

[1214] Every comedian you watch has got a joke that they've written about you.

[1215] We're on our fourth huge stop of the shame machine.

[1216] I couldn't even leave my house for like months.

[1217] I was so depressed, so humiliated.

[1218] Like the whole world has seen me naked This was supposed to be a private night Between two people who were in love I never thought anyone would ever see it Obviously And it's something that will haunt me the rest of my life It broke my heart to say that Yeah, even now when you walk into rooms It's in the back of your mind Like who has seen that tape Yeah One night with someone And then the whole world thinks of your slut Because of it It's like something that every couple do Yeah Yeah I had so many people come out to me after like, I made a tape with my boyfriend.

[1219] Like, I made a tape with my husband.

[1220] It was like something that people would do.

[1221] But the conversation is that you're a slut and your sex tape as opposed to someone took this private piece of information and sold it.

[1222] Like, that's the problem.

[1223] Totally.

[1224] And no one's talking about that.

[1225] It's just like if someone stole your diary and just published it in the newspaper.

[1226] Like, I can't imagine anyone would be like, oh, that's great.

[1227] I'm glad we all got to read her diary.

[1228] People are so mad that you're making money and having a fancy life that when the sex comes, they're just like, okay, now I can park all of my anger and jealousy on this one thing that happened and act like, that's why I hate her.

[1229] Not being truthful with themselves.

[1230] That really, they're just insanely envious of your lifestyle or what they perceive your lifestyle to be.

[1231] Yeah, I think it's just people who aren't happy with their own lives.

[1232] So it just makes them mad to see someone else.

[1233] So then when something bad happens, like celebrating it and it's like, they're so happy for it.

[1234] It's the best day of their lives.

[1235] So it was just painful all the time.

[1236] Like something I'll regret the rest of my life.

[1237] And then the thing that bothered me most was when people would say, oh, she did it on purpose.

[1238] She's part of it.

[1239] She leaked it.

[1240] That was the last thing I wanted people to think of me. Like, I always looked up to people like Princess Diana and all these elegant women.

[1241] And I feel that he took that all away from me. Right.

[1242] You were building something.

[1243] And I wasn't even a sexual person.

[1244] After what had happened to me, I almost became asexual where I was so scared of it.

[1245] Like, I would kiss and make out because I'm like, oh, if I do anything more than I can get hurt.

[1246] But if I only kiss then it's not a big deal and everyone would call you say your nickname was blue mrs blue baller yeah so what's really interesting is when i read that i went back to being in your hotel room at the real and i was like there's no sexual hunger here no i'm just like one of the boys that's right yeah you want a party and you did not want to fuck no yes yes i think that was palpable i don't know i would have put my finger on it but then reading that i'm like yeah yeah and i did wonder So that obviously could turn you asexual, but also having your sexuality stolen from you, the only way to have power over it, again, is to just make it disappear.

[1247] I don't know.

[1248] I think I just became like the sex symbol.

[1249] And then I didn't feel that way inside at all, but then I had to pretend.

[1250] But then it was almost like a mask.

[1251] And I didn't even realize to later on within the past couple years that a lot of the things I was like in life is just a trauma response.

[1252] Even the character was all a trauma response to what I had been through and turning into like the cartoon character to not have to think about what I had experienced.

[1253] Yeah, you can escape into this person.

[1254] And it's like, oh, they're talking bad.

[1255] It's not me. It's not me. They're making fun of the character that I created.

[1256] Yes.

[1257] So you still have some agency over it, really.

[1258] You're like, I made that and that's over there.

[1259] But when's the first time you found the character?

[1260] Do you know the first time you did the voice and did the thing and went out as her?

[1261] I think it just all definitely started in those schools and then especially with the simple life when that came out and all of a sudden it's like 13 and a half million viewers it's like this huge show that I'm going on the late night shows and I couldn't just go and talk at my normal voice and be myself I'm like I have to keep doing this character and then season after season and then everyone in the world just thinks that's who I am but it's like I'm just being entertaining like I know what people would want to see like if I was just myself it would be not boring but it wouldn't be as entertaining because I know that people are like, oh, we want to see these two rich girls.

[1262] Yeah, get money.

[1263] It was mainly the show.

[1264] It was a show that.

[1265] Solified it.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] But then when I was around people like you saw, not on camera, I was myself.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] Huh.

[1270] I'm a very shy person.

[1271] So I think playing the character and being the cameras, it made me less shy because it was like that mask.

[1272] You must so relate to Pamela Anderson.

[1273] Have you read her book or seen her?

[1274] Did you see her documentary?

[1275] Yes.

[1276] And I just saw her the other night at the Versacee show.

[1277] We used to hang out and be close friends.

[1278] Oh, you did?

[1279] She is just so much fun, so cool, so underestimated.

[1280] I always knew the real Pam, but I'm so happy that she did this book and this film because now she's finally getting the respect that she deserved because she's such an icon, such a legend.

[1281] Total icon, yeah.

[1282] Such a badass.

[1283] She's just so down to earth, so sweet.

[1284] I couldn't be happy for her.

[1285] But the shyness really reminds me. She arrived at the Playboy Mansion as a very shy, naive girl who had had her sexually stolen from her, felt slut shamed everywhere.

[1286] and found a character once they pointed a camera at her.

[1287] And in a weird way, it was cathartic for her because she had been blinding her sexuality to the world because it was dangerous to.

[1288] She was reclaiming it in a weird way and being completely in control of it.

[1289] And so I can totally see how you were kind of shut down sexually, it sounds like.

[1290] But then when you would go out of the club and you looked super sexy and had sexy clothes on, it was the version of being sexual that you were in complete control of.

[1291] There's no man in that mix.

[1292] Exactly.

[1293] when things like that happened, you taking control of it in your own way.

[1294] This whole past couple years has been self -discovery years because I was just moving so fast and so many things were happening.

[1295] I think I was just trying to distract myself from thinking about what I went through that I never had time to even just sit and just think about my life, literally until the film in this book.

[1296] Okay, the two things that, when we talked about it a lot after we had both watched your doc, the thing that most angered me was the boyfriend.

[1297] it made me so angry.

[1298] That was not my boyfriend.

[1299] That was some random guy that I met.

[1300] We hated him.

[1301] I hated him.

[1302] And powerful women have a really, really narrow lane to be in.

[1303] I'm very aware of it.

[1304] I can't imagine how finite your pool of men is to date that aren't going to be extremely threatened by the amount of attention you get, the amount of money you make.

[1305] I felt most bad about that for you.

[1306] In that part of the documentary?

[1307] Just in general, when I looked at your life, I thought, who's this gal going to find who's big enough for her?

[1308] Who's a big enough, confident enough man to celebrate her and not be threatened by her?

[1309] There's so few options.

[1310] That's always been a difficult challenge, just because it was so emasculating to people where they would get angry at me and so jealous and lash out and become extremely abusive.

[1311] I would like let them control me. Yeah.

[1312] Well, again, you're finding your way back to your trauma over and over again because that's just what you do.

[1313] A bad pattern.

[1314] Thank God.

[1315] I found my husband.

[1316] Yeah.

[1317] So Carter.

[1318] And you guys have been together two years?

[1319] Three years.

[1320] And you'd known each other for 15 years?

[1321] Back in the day when I used to have my house in Kings Road, I would always have house parties all the time.

[1322] And he came to a couple of those parties and I would see him over the years.

[1323] But I was not ready for any type of relationship like we were just friends yeah part of me is like this is the ideal set up for you to actually know somebody for a long time before you get romantic with them another part of me the skeptics like you have fireworks with people or you don't how could it have simmered for 15 years so how did it take that turn i think timing is really everything my heart had such giant walls around it that i was not ready for anyone and i'm so happy that it happened at the perfect time because I would not have been ready for this type of love.

[1324] And we reconnected in 2019 during Thanksgiving.

[1325] I went home to the Hamptons.

[1326] I hadn't been there in literally 15 years because I'd always been working during the holidays.

[1327] And I'm so happy that I went because I saw him there at lunch.

[1328] That night we had Thanksgiving dinner.

[1329] We kissed and then we've been inseparable ever since.

[1330] And the world shut down in March a few months later.

[1331] So then we had so much time to get to know each other.

[1332] I feel like when you're dating someone during the pandemic, it's a make or break.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] And like, it's like dog years.

[1335] Like one year is like seven years because that's just like so much.

[1336] You spend seven years worth of time with somebody in one year.

[1337] It's like going on vacation with them for a year stuck in the same hotel.

[1338] And had you already made the dock by then?

[1339] Yes, I just finished the dock.

[1340] It was still being edited.

[1341] It came on in 2020.

[1342] Right.

[1343] So you maybe had some catharsis through that that let you get a little more open to him.

[1344] What shocked you about your own life when you watched the dock?

[1345] I've had this experience where it's like I'm able to write about something that's happened to me. And then when I read it, I'm actually able to understand it.

[1346] And so I wonder what you got out of watching your own doc.

[1347] Everything.

[1348] Like I always tell the director, like, I'm so grateful to you.

[1349] You changed my life.

[1350] I had just no idea who I was.

[1351] I was so confused about everything.

[1352] And it just made me see my life and be like, you were so strong and so resilient, but you've also been through so much.

[1353] And I didn't even really go into it that much with what I could have said about the schools because I wasn't even ready at this point.

[1354] It was like a year of shooting, but it took me so long to get comfortable with even speaking about a lot.

[1355] That's again why I wrote the book because I wanted to go more into it.

[1356] But yeah, the documentary just showed me who I really was.

[1357] Yeah, it's kind of like doing an inventory in AA.

[1358] It's just like, well, here it is.

[1359] This is what your life looks like.

[1360] Yeah.

[1361] Were there any parts where you're like, this is a little crazy?

[1362] All of it.

[1363] I've lived this wild, crazy, exciting, scary, fun life.

[1364] Yeah, to me, I was missing the ADHD element.

[1365] When I put it in that context, it definitely changes it a little bit for me. But I'm looking at it.

[1366] I'm like, it's too much for me. Like there's too much going on.

[1367] There's too many moving pieces.

[1368] There's too many transient people.

[1369] Like it gave me anxiety a little bit.

[1370] My life.

[1371] Yeah.

[1372] Yeah.

[1373] Did it give it to you when you watched it?

[1374] Yeah.

[1375] It was literally, it was just so much.

[1376] I was on the road 250 days a year for two decades.

[1377] And it was just too much for a human to go through.

[1378] I just felt like kind of like this Barbie doll being sent around the world.

[1379] Stay tuned for more armchair expert If you dare Okay, so I hated the boyfriend He was not the boyfriend, please do not call him that Your fiancé, what was his name, Harold?

[1380] No, no, no, no, no, yes, your fiancé at the time.

[1381] How dare you?

[1382] No, a dude that was hanging around.

[1383] I did not know him, he's so beyond.

[1384] I wanted to cut that part out of the movie because I was like, I don't even want this loser in the movie To get any attention Because he's going to become famous and think he's cool And the director's like, we need to Is finally you sticking up for yourself.

[1385] Yeah.

[1386] Yes, it really humanizes you.

[1387] Thanks.

[1388] And I was so proud of myself for finally get the fuck out of air ripping the bracelets off.

[1389] Yes.

[1390] So good.

[1391] But also just showing the obstacle you have.

[1392] And we just have Priyanka Chopra on and you asked her kind of the same thing.

[1393] When you're in relationships, is it hard for them to give it up to you?

[1394] And then she's like, yeah, my best days are the days where I'm crying because they can't handle it.

[1395] And that was that example.

[1396] And it's just like, oh, God, how can she ever have a good day?

[1397] when she has all these people around who want to bring her down.

[1398] So be honest.

[1399] I love Priyanka.

[1400] She's so nice.

[1401] So beautiful.

[1402] Yes.

[1403] She was a fly girl, which I love.

[1404] Like, in high school, she was like Jenny from the block.

[1405] She was like, yes, I love it.

[1406] It's hot.

[1407] Super hot.

[1408] I got another one.

[1409] It's kind of like when Emerald -Lagasy yells, bam, yeah.

[1410] I feel like it gives me a little jolt when you say.

[1411] And then the other thing, and I relate to it so much, I was like, she has this obsession with a billion dollars that's going to ruin her life because the billion dollars represents something.

[1412] Tell me what it means to you.

[1413] What does it represent?

[1414] Well, like I said at the schools, I said I was going to work so hard, make so much money, no one can control me. And then whatever I would get to a goal is like, oh, I want to make 10.

[1415] I want to make 100.

[1416] And I was like, now I want to make a bill.

[1417] Yes.

[1418] But now that I have my baby and my family, it's not like so much focus.

[1419] Even though I know it's going to happen.

[1420] But now it's not like, oh, that's all I care about.

[1421] It's more like I care more about the babies and the billions.

[1422] But what I thought watching it was I have the same fairy tale, which is I will get so much money that no one will ever have any say over me ever again.

[1423] And my therapist will say to me, you know you're already there.

[1424] And so these things represent something, a freedom on the other side of that I believe, you actually just have to give yourself along the way because it doesn't work I bet my life on it if you got to a billion you're like I still don't feel that safe I need to get to tent whatever the thing would be I need a zillion I got to be richer than Bezos I got to leave Bezos in the dust I'd imagine it represented and you're saying it did safety which I have to tell myself all the time like you're safe because I don't just naturally feel safe I have to go like you're 48 you're a big boy no one's coming for you it's over but it's so hard to really believe it's over because it's ingrained in your mind so deeply it's your worldview when that stuff happens to you're like the world is going to try to fuck me and so i got to be on guard at all times i have to be committed to recognizing i'm safe because i'll just act the same way all the time i can totally relate to that so much yeah for you at imagine the billion would also silence everyone it'd be like, well, how fucking dumb can I be if I got this billion dollars?

[1425] But again, I'll say that's an illusion as well.

[1426] Whoever hates you, still going to hate you with a billion.

[1427] And we already know you're smart.

[1428] And you know you're smart.

[1429] So you just give it to yourself, right?

[1430] Those two things I just was a little bit like, I want her to come off of the billion dollar thing because it's not going to give her what she wants.

[1431] I feel like I'm in the best place in my life now.

[1432] I'm so happy and just so grateful for everything.

[1433] And this baby has literally brought so much love into my life that I just feel like my life is complete now.

[1434] I'm going to continue working because I love what I do.

[1435] But I also just want to be there for all the moments of my little baby.

[1436] Yeah.

[1437] I can't wait for him to be older and just be able to have all those experiences like being the tooth fairy or being Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, just getting to relive your childhood.

[1438] Write some wrongs maybe that happened to you.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] Yeah.

[1441] For sure.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] And you do.

[1444] You like heal yourself along the way.

[1445] When you show up for this little person the way you wanted someone to show up for you, it's weirdly, I think, healing.

[1446] Okay.

[1447] Oh, another thing is, so there was the palms.

[1448] Then there was this last May at Formula One.

[1449] You were DJing at a party I was hosting.

[1450] The Hilton party.

[1451] The Hilton party.

[1452] That was so much fun.

[1453] In Miami.

[1454] In Miami.

[1455] And you make an insane amount of money to DJ.

[1456] And I'm so happy for you.

[1457] She's the highest paid female DJ in the world.

[1458] Yes.

[1459] Love it.

[1460] Yes.

[1461] Slang.

[1462] just slain and i was having that moment where i've already seen the doc i already know who you really are i'm a fan and then i'm watching you dj and i'm seeing the impact you have on people it's pretty wild in fact knowing you're shy i don't know how you do it because you're sitting there just on display and people are mesmerized some are dancing but most people are just too fucked up by the experience of standing six feet from you and they're filming every moment of of it.

[1463] They don't know why.

[1464] They don't want to know what to do.

[1465] And I was like, this is so intense for a shy person.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] Again, you have the ability to disassociate and compartmentalize a little bit.

[1468] I get really shy, but the energy, playing in front of smaller crowds, it's shyer.

[1469] Like, when I'm at Tomorrowland, I'm playing in front of like hundreds of thousands of people.

[1470] I'm not as shy, which is weird.

[1471] Now, that kind of makes sense.

[1472] It's not as intimate.

[1473] Yeah.

[1474] The other ones are really intimate.

[1475] You're going to lock eyes with actual people.

[1476] It's so fun to see.

[1477] Like, even at those events, like all these people who would never dance or party are just like, yeah.

[1478] And then there's other people who are like parricized who are like, parricized, yes.

[1479] It sort of felt like they were stuck in a retractor beam or something.

[1480] I love it though.

[1481] It's so nice to have like that effect on people to make them so happy or just make them so excited.

[1482] Like that's such a cool thing to experience.

[1483] Don't you think the challenge though is to feel worthy of that?

[1484] I think that's a big mind fuck.

[1485] Another thing when I get shy, I put sunglasses on, which I learned from that movie, Big Daddy, with Adam Sandler.

[1486] Oh, yeah, old classic.

[1487] Yeah, you had some pretty impenetrable shades on.

[1488] Yeah.

[1489] Well, this has been wonderful.

[1490] Congratulations that it's on the bestsellers list.

[1491] I'm not surprised.

[1492] Oh, I want to add this because I think some people would have a natural curiosity who you are as a writer, like what your voice is.

[1493] And what's lovely is, it's your voice.

[1494] I think even if it didn't say Paraseltin, someone handed me, this is like, this is, someone's memoir, I think I would be like, I think this is Paris Hilton.

[1495] Oh, that's awesome.

[1496] It's so her voice.

[1497] There's so many funniest sides.

[1498] I love how much you own loving shit and getting dressed up and you love your outfits.

[1499] I love that there's no shame in that aspect of your life.

[1500] You have to have fun with life.

[1501] Yeah.

[1502] We get one.

[1503] One time.

[1504] I just want to make the most of it.

[1505] My book, like you laugh, you'll cry, you get angry at things that have happened.

[1506] So it's just this roller coaster of a life.

[1507] Yeah, all with the ADHD umbrella for the whole thing.

[1508] So it's very fast -paced and fun and exhilarating.

[1509] Like your life.

[1510] Rear's that.

[1511] Yeah, and it's very much your voice.

[1512] So congratulations.

[1513] I think that's the hardest thing to do is for people to put their real voice down in writing.

[1514] I'm really proud of this book.

[1515] All right.

[1516] Are you still doing your podcast?

[1517] This is Paris.

[1518] Do we need to promote that?

[1519] Oh, yeah.

[1520] Okay.

[1521] How often do you do that?

[1522] It just depends.

[1523] been traveling a lot.

[1524] I used to do it every week, but now my schedule has been out of controls.

[1525] I've just been so busy because I have 11, 11 media, my media company.

[1526] So I have my podcasting company, my film production, TV production, my Metaverse business, products, licensing, getting the studio being the second album.

[1527] You have 19 product lines.

[1528] And a child.

[1529] 30th fragrance is about to come out.

[1530] Wow.

[1531] This scares me thinking about it.

[1532] I need so much less to do.

[1533] I look at my calendar in the morning and there's generally three things.

[1534] We'll record two people and then we'll have a fact check.

[1535] And I'm like, oh, this is a lot of stuff.

[1536] Still a lot.

[1537] I've been there's got to be 30 things on your camera.

[1538] It's so fun to be at home and do it.

[1539] Me, it's like, yeah, 30 things.

[1540] It's out of control every day.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] But that's your zone.

[1543] That's your superpower.

[1544] That's how you like to work.

[1545] Yeah.

[1546] And I'm putting all these different hats on like one second.

[1547] I'm like the business woman.

[1548] Then I'm an advocate.

[1549] Then I'm a writer.

[1550] Then I'm an artist.

[1551] Then I'm a DJ, then I'm, I don't even know, an astronaut flying to the moon.

[1552] Yeah, do it all.

[1553] Yeah, do it all.

[1554] Well, it's been a pleasure to know you for 20 years now.

[1555] I'm so happy for you for this book.

[1556] It's very, very brave, and people already love it.

[1557] So everyone check out Paris, The Memoir.

[1558] It's going to be enormous.

[1559] We'll talk to you again, yeah?

[1560] Thank you.

[1561] This was really fun.

[1562] So fun.

[1563] Like my favorite interview I've ever done.

[1564] Oh, that's so nice.

[1565] Thank you.

[1566] It's so awesome and so good to see you again and just so proud of everything you're doing.

[1567] It's so awesome to meet you.

[1568] I love that air conditioning is so cold in here.

[1569] I'm like, every other interview, it's so hot.

[1570] I'm like, we turn the air on the, like, no, the sound.

[1571] Yeah.

[1572] It's so cool in here.

[1573] Yeah, we keep it chilly.

[1574] I love it.

[1575] Monica doesn't love it, but it's kind of an assessment for me. I stop functioning once I get above a certain time.

[1576] All right, I adore you.

[1577] Good luck with everything.

[1578] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1579] You're in a new outfit.

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] Yeah.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] Repeat of yesterday, but new, but different.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] Same kind of new shirts.

[1587] Same kind of new slacks.

[1588] Yes.

[1589] Linen pant, summer pants.

[1590] Great summer pants.

[1591] James Purse.

[1592] That's right.

[1593] James Purse.

[1594] Ding, ding, ding.

[1595] Ding.

[1596] Ding.

[1597] Is it a ding ding ding?

[1598] Yeah.

[1599] Remember it used to be.

[1600] Olson twins.

[1601] Yeah.

[1602] It was a whole joke.

[1603] Oh, no, no. I know that.

[1604] But is it a ding, ding, ding, ding for this episode?

[1605] No. Okay.

[1606] Just so old ding ding ding for us.

[1607] I don't remember seeing James Perce since our talk about Ashley a year ago.

[1608] Right.

[1609] Speaking of sort of now it is a ding, ding, ding.

[1610] Oh, okay.

[1611] Because I posted a picture of a new mug I got, Houston's.

[1612] Oh, yes.

[1613] I saw that.

[1614] Story?

[1615] So excited.

[1616] Story.

[1617] J .G. J .G. Yeah.

[1618] He commented that the Olson twins, or we're going to.

[1619] going to be very mad because I posted his mug with the Olson twins all over that and now I have competing mugs are they either of them on social no they could care I'm so I love they are so cool it's funny in our modern society what track says if someone's not on social media it just it imbues this sense that they're like internally confident in a way that no one else is.

[1620] They are so off the grid.

[1621] They do not do interviews.

[1622] They do not like they're just really committed to having a closed door.

[1623] And I find that so interesting.

[1624] I know.

[1625] I just think it's really funny that that that basically anything that very few people do is going to be of some kind of interest to the rest of us.

[1626] So whatever the current thing is, you know, then it just gets intriguing that, why don't they join the group?

[1627] For me, it just makes them so much more elusive.

[1628] It's like, who are they?

[1629] Like, they become gods.

[1630] Who even are?

[1631] Are they real?

[1632] And it's like so weird that you dated her because I don't think she's real, but then you dated her.

[1633] I'm not so sure anymore on myself.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] We don't know if you dated her.

[1636] Yeah, by myself, not wondering who she is just like you.

[1637] Exactly.

[1638] And this is a ding, ding, ding.

[1639] Oh, we found it.

[1640] We muddled around enough in the weeds and we found something.

[1641] Because this is for Paris.

[1642] Oh, it is.

[1643] In Paris essentially invented all of this.

[1644] In social media, yeah.

[1645] I mean, being out there, having your persona out there.

[1646] Yeah.

[1647] What a cool woman.

[1648] Paris.

[1649] Yes.

[1650] Totally.

[1651] Agreed.

[1652] Really liked her.

[1653] Me too.

[1654] lot.

[1655] Me too.

[1656] Yeah, so mug wars.

[1657] Mugworts.

[1658] I made a bull in it.

[1659] Oh, Hogworts.

[1660] Yes, that would be a fun mug company, mugworts.

[1661] For muggles who wish they were at Hogwarts?

[1662] Yeah, mugworts.

[1663] Those people are embarrassing.

[1664] That's you.

[1665] You're a muggle who wishes you were at Hogwarts.

[1666] I'm embarrassed by myself.

[1667] We're listening to it right now.

[1668] Every night at bedtime.

[1669] Yeah, we're on the first book.

[1670] Harry's just left platform.

[1671] Nine and three quarters.

[1672] He's on his way.

[1673] They just got there and now I think the sorting hat was...

[1674] Oh.

[1675] Oh, my God.

[1676] And then her mind...

[1677] It's really interesting because my association with Terrence Posner is the films.

[1678] Right.

[1679] And so, A, I pictured Daniel Radcliffe.

[1680] See, I wish I...

[1681] And you don't, right?

[1682] So what did he look like in your mind?

[1683] Did Daniel come close?

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] I mean, they did do a good job.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] To me, Harry is...

[1688] His bone structure is a little bit...

[1689] leaner.

[1690] I mean, Daniel Rackcliffe's lean, but it's like his face.

[1691] Yeah, it's like thinner.

[1692] They had the drawings on the cover, right?

[1693] Was that what you envisioned?

[1694] Maybe.

[1695] That was probably pre -movie.

[1696] Definitely pre -movie.

[1697] Yeah, I have the OG books with the OG artwork.

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] How much would you love to have one of the first 500?

[1700] I pay.

[1701] I pay.

[1702] Anyone out here?

[1703] 40 million.

[1704] 40 million.

[1705] Well, you know, I do have a first edition.

[1706] of one of the second book, I think, or the third, I got in London.

[1707] Yeah.

[1708] That was a huge get.

[1709] It is, it is.

[1710] But the first press of the second book was probably in the millions.

[1711] All right.

[1712] But there was only 500 of that first press.

[1713] I know.

[1714] Have you ever looked up and see how much those are worth?

[1715] Will you look it up?

[1716] Will you look up how I can get one?

[1717] Dax has offered to pay.

[1718] Never.

[1719] You already know, you already know my position on scarcity facts.

[1720] an inflated value surrounding scare.

[1721] I reject it.

[1722] I don't want to play.

[1723] Not with the cars.

[1724] But that's completely different because it's not driven by scarcity.

[1725] There's a ton of things I could be into because they were scarce.

[1726] I'm not into any of them.

[1727] Now, some of the things I'm into are super scarce, but it's all performance driven.

[1728] Well, yeah, but remember we said, like, you have to get that, uh, whatever before it goes away.

[1729] Like, we did have a whole conversation about that.

[1730] It's on its last.

[1731] Oh, oh, the, the, the, the Dodge 170s.

[1732] Yes.

[1733] So that is that.

[1734] But again, that's, well, that's what appealed to you about it.

[1735] What appealed to me was 1 ,025 horsepower.

[1736] It's never happened in a production car.

[1737] So I was only after that number.

[1738] Okay, but what appeals to me about Harry is not, it is the limited edition piece, but it is my favorite.

[1739] It has changed my life, those books.

[1740] So it's not like I would just want Anne of Green Gables first edition.

[1741] Yeah, although I do have.

[1742] Although I want that.

[1743] Right.

[1744] The first edition of Sorcerer's Stone is valued at between 35.

[1745] $5 ,000 and $55 ,000.

[1746] That's not that much.

[1747] For one of the first 500?

[1748] First edition.

[1749] First print of just 500 copies.

[1750] Valued at that.

[1751] I don't know if you can find them at that.

[1752] What about first edition, Philosopher's Stone?

[1753] Do you even know what that is?

[1754] No, what's that?

[1755] That is the British version.

[1756] It was first called Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

[1757] And for American print was Sorcer Stone.

[1758] They changed it to Sorcer Stone.

[1759] Uh, first edition for that sells for $471 ,000.

[1760] Okay, so that must be the first 500.

[1761] The first 500.

[1762] Because they only existed in England.

[1763] Paperback.

[1764] That sounds more like it.

[1765] I was expecting a million bucks for those.

[1766] I expect 40 mil.

[1767] Thriftbooks .com has it for $2 ,200.

[1768] Well, that can be.

[1769] That's not.

[1770] That's a lot.

[1771] And it's autographed.

[1772] It is?

[1773] By Voldemore.

[1774] Is that spooky when I say that?

[1775] You're so into the lore that that's troubling.

[1776] He's scary.

[1777] But Harry wants to say it too That's what he's struggling with right now He's in the same boat I am He wants to keep saying Voldemort But people are getting all revved up about it And he's like me He's like those are just sounds your mouth make You're assigning all of this He is like you, I know I'm okay saying it I say it Voldemort Also you're listening to it So that's why you said Voldemore Because that's what I heard That's not what the guy's saying I'm sure I'm sure he is saying it right The narrator is insanely good Yeah Yeah the British people say Voldemore Oh, so maybe I'm doing it correctly.

[1778] I know, but it's like orangutang and orangutan.

[1779] Yeah.

[1780] Like, even though it's right, I don't like that.

[1781] Yeah, that's fine.

[1782] That's fair.

[1783] I have a lot of those.

[1784] They make no sense, but I have them.

[1785] I like Voldemort.

[1786] Okay.

[1787] Anyway, I want that.

[1788] I also want, just reminding everyone, I also want the Tiffany's, the bone cuff.

[1789] Bone cuff?

[1790] Yeah.

[1791] Where did you discover this and how much is it cost?

[1792] It's $21 ,000.

[1793] Okay.

[1794] Okay.

[1795] Where did you see?

[1796] It's ticker gold.

[1797] Yeah, I want the gold, not the silver.

[1798] I saw it on a fashion video.

[1799] Okay, who was wearing it?

[1800] It was a stylist, Kate Young shout out.

[1801] She had some videos about lots of things, and she did one on Tiffany's, and she showed the bone cuff.

[1802] And I was like, ooh, I love that.

[1803] It's very, we've talked about it on here before, but I'll just remind you what it looks like, because it's very...

[1804] Classic?

[1805] No, it's like, cool.

[1806] Oh.

[1807] Hmm.

[1808] Yeah, and it wraps around the bone.

[1809] It's not for me. I love it.

[1810] No, no. Why?

[1811] Because it looks like melted taffy.

[1812] I know.

[1813] Yeah, I like, well, melted gold.

[1814] You know this about me already.

[1815] I like hard lines and square things.

[1816] That looks like a big wad of taffy around your wrist.

[1817] No disrespect Tiffany's.

[1818] Great job.

[1819] Please sponsor us, but that's not for me. Oh, my God.

[1820] Please sponsor us.

[1821] Or me. So, anywho, those are the things I want.

[1822] I want a, It's like her early Christmas list we're doing in May. And a first -edish philosopher stone.

[1823] I do have a soft cover philosopher stone from London when I went when I studied abroad there in college.

[1824] Oh, wonderful.

[1825] Yeah.

[1826] Cool gift if people like Harry Potter.

[1827] Okay, Paris.

[1828] Perry.

[1829] Gay Paris.

[1830] There's really.

[1831] There's no fact.

[1832] There's one fact.

[1833] Oh, my God.

[1834] not only one fact.

[1835] Yeah.

[1836] So we talked about the palate cleansers for fragrance, olfactory palette cleanser.

[1837] Lots of coffee, you know.

[1838] We were basically like what's it called.

[1839] She said there is a name.

[1840] There's olfactory pallet cleanser, nasal palate cleanser.

[1841] It doesn't really have a name.

[1842] Let me see if I can name it for everyone.

[1843] Okay.

[1844] Oh, but it's also called nose fatigue.

[1845] Right, right, right.

[1846] If you don't do that, you have nose fatigue.

[1847] If you don't cleanse the palate.

[1848] Okay.

[1849] You know Swiffer, the floor cleaners?

[1850] Yeah.

[1851] Sniffer.

[1852] Yeah.

[1853] With a W. That's good because you're cleansing.

[1854] Yeah, you're cleaning out your sniffer.

[1855] What do you mean with the W?

[1856] Doesn't Swiffer have a, I guess it's SW, Swiffer.

[1857] Sniffer, never mind.

[1858] The end's going where the W is going.

[1859] Forget I said anything about W. I had that wrong.

[1860] This is one of my weakness shows.

[1861] No, but that's okay.

[1862] You're just, you have to talk it out.

[1863] Yeah.

[1864] Yeah, sniffter.

[1865] No, that's what you smell brandy in.

[1866] Oh.

[1867] Yeah.

[1868] All right, back to the drawing board.

[1869] We can go a sniffer, but that felt good with Swiffer.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] No, but Sniffer, you said.

[1872] I did.

[1873] And now you're saying no?

[1874] I don't know.

[1875] I don't, it doesn't make you immediately think of Swiffer the way I want it to.

[1876] That's right.

[1877] That's right.

[1878] That's the problem with it.

[1879] Therein lies the problem.

[1880] So how about this?

[1881] What's another cleaning product?

[1882] Pine Sol.

[1883] Oh, pine saw Ajax Windex Dub pomol Windex smell smell water It's got to be classy because you're dealing with fragrance That's a fence I'm building for you Yeah Has to be classy Boy that's rough because it's nose Nostrils Yeah smelling.

[1884] Well, olfactory, remember, you can use that.

[1885] Yeah, hold on one second while I sneeze.

[1886] I'm going to clear mine.

[1887] Ding, ding, ding.

[1888] Look at the light.

[1889] There was a sliver coming through.

[1890] Oh, there was, okay.

[1891] That's exactly what I was looking at.

[1892] I was like trying to really hone in on that.

[1893] What's happening there physiologically?

[1894] Why looking at light?

[1895] I know.

[1896] What the fuck?

[1897] Is it actually, is it a trick to get us to look up?

[1898] It may be up.

[1899] No, I can feel it in my body, physically.

[1900] biologically, when I find the sharp light, it makes that sneeze activate.

[1901] How are your eyes linked to that?

[1902] What is going on there?

[1903] Bright light causes the eyes pupils to constrict, which may indirectly cause secretion and congestion in the nasal mucous membranes, which then leads to a sneeze.

[1904] Oh, my God.

[1905] That was quick, Wabi.

[1906] That was really, that was really impressive.

[1907] That's bizarre.

[1908] Yeah.

[1909] So much happens.

[1910] This thing is awesome.

[1911] Well, I was.

[1912] This thing, this body.

[1913] I started why we had a guest that recommended the four -part how to change your mind show on Netflix, a docu -series, about psychedelics.

[1914] And we started it last night.

[1915] I was kind of reminded while watching it.

[1916] And I've had this thought a bunch of times on psychedelics.

[1917] You're seeing so many things if you're having like visual hallucinations.

[1918] So whenever I was on shrooms, I'd always find some grass and lay down and look up at the blue sky.

[1919] Whenever I did that, the blue sky would turn into thousands of these little diamond -shaped sparkles.

[1920] And I'd follow the diamonds around and they'd do certain things.

[1921] And what I was thinking about watching it last night, and I thought about it while I've been on psychedelics, is how insanely creative your brain is and who's creating it.

[1922] That's what's so weird.

[1923] Like you're just observing.

[1924] Chemicals.

[1925] Yes, but you're observing all of the.

[1926] stuff and I've had it as far as like I told you was looking in the mirror naked about to take a shower on shrooms and I noticed I kind of look like a gorilla like this weird well you are one yes but I would I had hair growing out of the side of me but it was wild yes I almost looked like a werewolf but I of course knew I'm not a werewolf so it didn't bother me I was just like wow this is so wild to see myself as this big hairy werewolf think how much computing power it takes to make CGI in the amount of time it takes to make like a three -minute scene where all the visuals are filled in and it all looks real and it's beautiful.

[1927] And then also creating the whole world.

[1928] Like your brain has the power to CGI create a totally different world.

[1929] Yeah.

[1930] Real time.

[1931] It has its own direction.

[1932] It decided that we should look like a gorilla in that moment.

[1933] I didn't pick that.

[1934] Yeah, yeah.

[1935] That's an astounding computing power.

[1936] It is.

[1937] That the brain has.

[1938] It can make a real -time movie in your eyeballs when on psyched -do.

[1939] I don't know.

[1940] I was just really marveling at how.

[1941] It's insane.

[1942] How capable the brain is.

[1943] It's scary.

[1944] Like, well, it's both.

[1945] It's like amazing in a good way and it's amazing in a bad way.

[1946] I mean, it's like, wow.

[1947] Is it scary in the way that you, like, you fear getting trapped in that version of reality?

[1948] Well, no, no. It's just what the brain can do is scary.

[1949] Meaning, yeah.

[1950] Yeah, if it takes over and someone, yeah, what are they going to do?

[1951] There's no beating it, I guess, is sort of my sense.

[1952] Once you've lost control of it.

[1953] It's gone.

[1954] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1955] That's scary.

[1956] Yeah, this was interesting.

[1957] The first episode of that series is on LSD.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] It talks about the guy who invented it and how he came to invent it.

[1960] And he, of course, was now the first person who ever tried it.

[1961] And they call it the only pure trip of all time because everyone else is known that that was coming.

[1962] This guy was just in his lab and he had touched enough of it that things started getting very colorful and interesting.

[1963] And then on the other side of it, he realized, oh, I think it was that thing I must had touched.

[1964] It must have got into my skin.

[1965] So now he decides to do it orally.

[1966] And I forget the dosages, but I want to say he did like 0 .25 milligrams.

[1967] But now what people would do is like in the millions, right?

[1968] He did like, I don't know what the math is, but it sounds like he did maybe a thousand hits.

[1969] of ass at his first time.

[1970] Yes.

[1971] Oh, my God.

[1972] And it describes his bike ride he was taking home and how he was in that kind of so complicated of a world, it'd probably break your brain.

[1973] Oh, God.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] He was fine, though.

[1976] He lived through it.

[1977] And he talks about the like, yeah, completely losing side of reality for a while.

[1978] And then coming back down and getting into a manageable state where everything kind of became beautiful and all the stuff.

[1979] But I don't know, just crazy to think of someone trying it for the first time and doing a thousand hits for the 250 micrograms.

[1980] Okay, and what does someone normally do?

[1981] It's a normal dosage of acid.

[1982] 250 micrograms.

[1983] Much slower than when you found out about the sneeze.

[1984] It's much hard.

[1985] I don't even think of characters.

[1986] I don't know.

[1987] Okay, I'm going to move on.

[1988] Okay, right, right.

[1989] But the pedophile.

[1990] Oh, no. I wrote it down to remember and then it just came out.

[1991] We were talking about pedophiles yesterday.

[1992] It came up.

[1993] Yeah.

[1994] And you were saying you're glad you don't have that.

[1995] Oh, right.

[1996] I'm chair anonymous.

[1997] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1998] And I fully agree.

[1999] And that's what I mean.

[2000] That's chemicals in your brain.

[2001] And that's so scary.

[2002] Like you don't know what you're going to get.

[2003] Yes.

[2004] And I thought about it a little longer after we had that episode.

[2005] episode and we were talking about it.

[2006] And in a nutshell, I was saying I feel bad for this person.

[2007] Yeah.

[2008] And that person should also go to jail is what I thought.

[2009] Yeah.

[2010] But I was thinking about it a little further.

[2011] And as I do, I have these arguments with fictitious people who are going to be mad at me that I have compassion for a pedophile.

[2012] And I guess my defense of it, I was starting to think, like, I would say this to anybody.

[2013] Have you ever in your life made a decision?

[2014] I'm going to be attracted to adults.

[2015] Like, no one has to make that decision.

[2016] Right.

[2017] I didn't have to make that decision.

[2018] Yeah.

[2019] But people who are judgmental of it, it's almost as if they're acting as if they too were confronted with this and they chose the high ground.

[2020] Well, I don't, that's also not fair to people, right?

[2021] I mean, they cause the most harm of a group.

[2022] We can, I can, I'll say that.

[2023] Yeah, we're up there with murderers.

[2024] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2025] I mean, praying on children is, I think we can universally agree is the worst thing or horrible.

[2026] Yeah, yeah.

[2027] So I think you make it so that they're like holier than that.

[2028] They're not.

[2029] The truth is that is a very scary person on earth.

[2030] That's a person that if they're acting on this should be removed from.

[2031] We have to figure this out.

[2032] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2033] Agreed.

[2034] Agreed.

[2035] And yes, you are able to say, and I have compassion.

[2036] And so am I. I do too.

[2037] But I also recognize of someone's like, I don't really need to.

[2038] That's what I'm getting at.

[2039] I think to have that position, there's something about.

[2040] that position to me that signals they think I just don't think they're going down the road of trying to have compassion because I guess for them maybe they'd be like why like what's that going to get I think the only thing I think the worst thing is to be someone who's been victimized sexually by a predator yep but I think second only to that is someone who is praying on people I don't think that's a life I want.

[2041] That's a terrible life on planet Earth is someone who is molesting people.

[2042] There's so many things I'd rather be than that person, almost all the other things.

[2043] There's destruction on the other end of that person.

[2044] And I think also maybe people believe differently than we do, which we are like, it's full chemical.

[2045] I think people say it in a way that they think someone chose to be that.

[2046] That's what I'm rejecting.

[2047] Yeah, I agree.

[2048] If someone chose that, I'd be the most judge.

[2049] judgmental person in the world.

[2050] And I'd have zero compassion for the person.

[2051] If I really think they were like, I could go either way on this.

[2052] I'm going children.

[2053] Yeah.

[2054] I would be very judgmental of that person and have no compassion.

[2055] And I just, I don't think anyone picks that.

[2056] I don't either.

[2057] And I'm just, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude.

[2058] That's not me. Same.

[2059] Yeah.

[2060] But, uh, brains.

[2061] But, you know, we also, we, there's that episode of this American life on it.

[2062] And there are people who have that proclivity who, No, it's horrible and who have done what they can to minimize the suffering.

[2063] And that is admirable.

[2064] Incredibly.

[2065] But again, I think we don't.

[2066] That's really what I'm getting at is we have not made this a safe place for someone to admit that because there's so much judgment and you're so evil.

[2067] It's not a safe place to come out and say, oh, I think I'm one of the people who's attracted to children, like happened in that episode.

[2068] But when you hear it firsthand, you have tremendous.

[2069] tremendous compassion for that.

[2070] You know that kid didn't choose that and you're proud of him for flagging himself.

[2071] Yeah.

[2072] But you need a place that's safe enough to flag yourself.

[2073] This next stop is I've said this, I go straight to jail or I'm killed or I'm neutered, whatever, which a lot of people would love to see happen to anyone that's that way.

[2074] I just think the way we deal with it is that we will try to do our best to help the person.

[2075] I think more people like that kid would have the confidence to acknowledge there that way if it felt safe to do so.

[2076] Maybe.

[2077] I think that's how we reduce ultimately total amounts of predatory behavior is it's talked about it's accepted there's a program to intervene.

[2078] But do we think there is?

[2079] Like do we think there's something that can be done to stop it?

[2080] Prevent them from praying on people?

[2081] Yeah.

[2082] I got to believe there is.

[2083] Or kill them.

[2084] Kill them right away.

[2085] Truly.

[2086] If there's no solution and the only outcome is they're going to molest people then yeah kill them that's what i think should happen okay what's a matter nothing i just don't really know i just don't know where else to go with the like i don't think everyone has control over that i really don't like and i'm not and i'm not for killing someone but if someone truly believes that it's inevitable then you have if that's your belief, you would have no other option than to immediately incarcerate them for life or kill them.

[2087] Yeah, I guess I guess because you can't allow it to happen if it's inevitable.

[2088] Right.

[2089] Yeah.

[2090] And so the best part of me thinks, no, they're, I have to believe there's a third option than kill the people or put them in a box for the rest of their life.

[2091] But are you willing to, I mean, you probably are, but I think a lot of people are probably scared to roll the dice.

[2092] Sure.

[2093] When they have children walking around.

[2094] But what I would argue to them is by not acknowledging it, they've already rolled the dice.

[2095] Yeah, I agree.

[2096] Now they've done nothing, in fact.

[2097] Yeah.

[2098] They've provided no safe place to study it, no safe place for experimental treatments, no safe place for anything.

[2099] Just, yeah, let's ignore it and then let them molest people.

[2100] Yeah.

[2101] It's complicated.

[2102] Yeah.

[2103] It's complicated because it's very hard for us to have compassion for people who injure people.

[2104] it's complicated logistically, in this case.

[2105] I mean, it's complicated both ways, but it is complicated logistically to think, okay, we're going to try out this program and we really, really hope it works.

[2106] Yeah.

[2107] It might not, but we're hoping for the best.

[2108] Yeah.

[2109] That's very complicated for people to understand, okay, so how's that going to work?

[2110] So they go to a thing and then they're going to be around my kids and we'll hope it worked.

[2111] Like, that's hard.

[2112] I can, that's complicated.

[2113] It's very complicated for sure but i'm i do have compassion because if i had a brain like that and you'd be in the same treadmill as every other person that has compulsive behavior they can't control which is like you would believe yourself i can't i'm never doing it the amount of shame the amount of damage i i recognize you i'm never going to do it again i'm never going to do it again and that doesn't work like you know well exact but exactly well without intervention like addicts the the compulsion to molest children is not stronger in my belief than the compulsion to shoot dope if you've been shooting dope for three years.

[2114] I don't think there's a stronger compulsion in the world.

[2115] And if you are a strung out junkie, nothing could be harder than not scoring.

[2116] So the fact that we intervene in that situation makes me believe that, yes, compulsive, destructive behavior can be interrupted and stopped.

[2117] I guess people would say the rate at which there's relapse, is high enough that if we applied it to pedophiles, that would be scary.

[2118] It would be scary, but what alternative are someone who's saying that proposing?

[2119] They're probably saying just put all these people in jail.

[2120] Okay, great.

[2121] That is my assumption.

[2122] Yeah, so great.

[2123] And I believe there's a lot of people who feel very good about the fact that the second some teenager would admit like that boy did, I have these feelings.

[2124] They'd be fine with that person going to jail for the rest of their lives or putting a job.

[2125] junkie behind bars for the rest of their life, whatever.

[2126] There are people that have.

[2127] Again, that's not the same, because the junkie is hurting themselves.

[2128] Yeah.

[2129] That's where this whole thing breaks down is the harm to others.

[2130] My frustration is it's kind of like the health care debate.

[2131] What's maddening, I find it so infuriating about the health care debate is that's fine if you don't want to provide free health care for everyone and you don't think that's a right.

[2132] that's fine but we do right totally we already do we already give everyone who walks into emergency room in america treatment we're already paying for it and you're paying for it in the most expensive way possible so that's insanely infuriating to talk with something because they live in a world in which we can reject people from the hospital we can't yeah so now what similarly you're going to incarcerate someone for the rest of their life that hasn't committed a crime because you think they might commit the crime is crazy.

[2133] Also, then you'll never hear about it.

[2134] So they all stay underground.

[2135] So you're going to have maximum predators not dealing with their addiction.

[2136] So you're going to get the worst outcome with that opinion.

[2137] It's just that's what you're.

[2138] So let's do a thought experiment.

[2139] Okay.

[2140] Okay.

[2141] What if a kid tells their parents, I really, really want to shoot up my school.

[2142] And I like, I feel it's coming.

[2143] I want to.

[2144] Yeah.

[2145] What do you think should have?

[2146] happened to that kid.

[2147] I think that that kid needs to, A, there's no guns now.

[2148] There's no guns around at all.

[2149] I think that kid.

[2150] But we live in a world where that person, we know, no, this is my kid comes home and tells me this.

[2151] All guns are gone from the house.

[2152] From the house.

[2153] Yeah.

[2154] But a kid, it's, it's, it's not hard to get a gun.

[2155] I think it is hard to get a gun.

[2156] I think if you wanted to go to go get a gun today illegally, yes.

[2157] I think if you were trying to buy a gun illegally, it would be very, very hard for you to do.

[2158] Where would you start?

[2159] I can get one legally.

[2160] I know you can get one legally, but if someone, if we have the system in place by the parents call immediately to the police, I want my child to be denied for gun ownership, gun sales.

[2161] I'm on a no gun list.

[2162] Okay.

[2163] Totally doable.

[2164] So there's no legal way for them to buy a gun now, right?

[2165] Okay.

[2166] I don't think it's easy to go buy a hot gun.

[2167] I think that's in the movies where, like, where are you going to start wandering around downtown and start asking people like, hey, you know where I can get a gun?

[2168] I mean, I think they could go to a friend's house that has a gun and you get the gun.

[2169] Like, I mean, there are ways.

[2170] Right.

[2171] So within this admission is you're not going to school now.

[2172] Okay.

[2173] Okay.

[2174] You're getting homeschooled.

[2175] That's now happening.

[2176] So you're not even in that school anymore.

[2177] You're monitored.

[2178] We're now on you.

[2179] You don't have freedom.

[2180] You have friends that are allowed to come over to the house or you have someplace you go and you supervise.

[2181] And we get you through this next few years and we're basically in jail with you now because our whole life now is dedicated to observing you and making sure you don't do anything crazy.

[2182] But that three year jail I go in until you're in full adulthood and you've had a lot of therapy is better than the lifetime in prison you do.

[2183] It's better than that.

[2184] So I just have to buck up and now you are a ward of this house.

[2185] Right.

[2186] Okay, but you made it about your kid, but I'm saying I'm making it about a kid who is talking about your kid's school, not your kids.

[2187] Another kid who is saying, I want to shoot up the school.

[2188] Yeah.

[2189] And it's your kid's school.

[2190] Right.

[2191] You think, do you, do you?

[2192] You do.

[2193] You do.

[2194] You do.

[2195] You do.

[2196] Okay.

[2197] The kid has to leave my school.

[2198] He has to be monitored 24 -7.

[2199] He has to have observed friendships.

[2200] He can't go anywhere and get a gun.

[2201] He has to be in therapy.

[2202] That's what I'm wondering.

[2203] Yeah, no, that kid doesn't, I don't think that kid should go to jail to prevent him from doing it.

[2204] I think we can handle that.

[2205] Interesting.

[2206] Yeah.

[2207] You think they should go to jail?

[2208] I don't, I honestly, I don't know what the answer is.

[2209] Because I want to do something isn't a crime, just technically.

[2210] I know that.

[2211] But I, I'm more on the scale than you of, I'm willing to do some things to prevent a elementary school getting shoot up.

[2212] And if that means putting someone to jail who hasn't committed a crime, I actually am fine with that.

[2213] And that's totally fine and fair.

[2214] But then you have to go the next step.

[2215] So that's the new law.

[2216] Now do we ever hear one single time in the rest of history that a kid admits he wants to do that?

[2217] No, because he knows he's going straight to jail.

[2218] So we'll never ever even hear it now.

[2219] Right.

[2220] Well, yeah.

[2221] That'll be the outcome.

[2222] It's kind of like.

[2223] But normally, yeah, I guess this is true.

[2224] I mean, normally they don't tell anyone.

[2225] That's how it happens in the first place.

[2226] No, I know.

[2227] But this is a scenario.

[2228] Yeah, yeah.

[2229] I know.

[2230] Again, it's tackling all the tough ones.

[2231] We got pedophilia.

[2232] But let's talk about another thing I've tackled.

[2233] A bolognaise.

[2234] I made one yesterday.

[2235] This will get us out.

[2236] Easy pivot.

[2237] And it was, it took three hours to simmer.

[2238] Three hours.

[2239] So that you had put a couple quarts of water in that pan that slowly cooked out?

[2240] So this is, this was Allison's new recipe this week.

[2241] I made it immediately.

[2242] But bolognais.

[2243] Uh -uh.

[2244] And your chef is very specific.

[2245] There's a recipe.

[2246] You make a Mirapua, which actually does have carrot.

[2247] It has carrot, onion, celery, like tiny, tiny.

[2248] I'm scared of, but tell me more.

[2249] Yeah, that's the Mirapois.

[2250] And then you cook that down with the beef and the pork.

[2251] Uh -huh.

[2252] Whatever.

[2253] And then you add, depends.

[2254] A lot of people only use tomato paste.

[2255] Uh -huh.

[2256] Like a very little tomato and white wine, milk.

[2257] Malk?

[2258] Mm -hmm.

[2259] That's in a standard bolognese.

[2260] Oh, my God, milk.

[2261] Yeah, milk.

[2262] Wow.

[2263] And then you let that simmer for a really long time.

[2264] But she has mixed hers up a tiny bit with it.

[2265] Till it turns to cheese.

[2266] All that milk turns to cheese.

[2267] No, it emulsifies.

[2268] Oh, I don't know if I should dash a little milk in mine.

[2269] So I made it.

[2270] You did it?

[2271] How was it?

[2272] It was so good.

[2273] It was.

[2274] It turned out an amazing?

[2275] Yes.

[2276] Wonderful.

[2277] Be honest, and I will not be heard at all better than mine.

[2278] No, no, it's so, but see, yours is different.

[2279] I don't think.

[2280] You wouldn't want to call mine Bolognais.

[2281] Okay, yeah.

[2282] And it's its own category of spaghetti sauce.

[2283] That's my favorite thing.

[2284] Okay, okay, but this is different.

[2285] It is because of the emulsification of the milk and the, it's a different thing.

[2286] Yeah, my hunch is this is much more like the Bolognais at Chateau Marmont.

[2287] Exactly.

[2288] Like, they're doing a stifference.

[2289] Standard bolognese.

[2290] She did mix it up a little bit.

[2291] Instead of classic mirropoa, she used fennel.

[2292] I was nervous about that.

[2293] Yeah, fennel's very strong.

[2294] I know, but not when you cook it down for that long.

[2295] So I still, I had two carrots in my fridge, so I did throw those in as well.

[2296] Interesting, okay.

[2297] And then the fennel, and then, you know, onion, garlic, whatever.

[2298] I was going to bring you some, but again, I'm so, I'm stricken with fear to bring you food.

[2299] Why?

[2300] I don't know why.

[2301] I have like a...

[2302] A, you see what I eat.

[2303] I eat ground beef.

[2304] I know, but I have this.

[2305] I want it to be perfect.

[2306] And it tasted so good, but I do wish I had...

[2307] Because I was hungry and I knew this was going to take, you know, three hours to just simmer.

[2308] So with all the chopping and stuff, three and a half, four hours.

[2309] I wish I had done a little bit better knife work on my bed.

[2310] Oh, things were a little big.

[2311] I think they could be smaller.

[2312] They were still, it was still a good fine chop, but it needed.

[2313] needed to be smaller to give to you.

[2314] And I would imagine chefs are against food processors.

[2315] Yeah.

[2316] Do they say why?

[2317] You just got to be good at knife work.

[2318] Well.

[2319] They're not like, they wouldn't be mad if anyone else did, but they wouldn't.

[2320] I know, I'm just curious if they, if they have an argument that something gastroalomical, gastro and tis, whatever we'd say.

[2321] Gastronomy, what do they call?

[2322] Yeah, gastronomy is.

[2323] Gastronomic.

[2324] I can't do it, that something happens to the actual composition of the vegetable when you do that and that's the argument.

[2325] If that were the argument, I would buy it.

[2326] But if it's just, you know, one thing is theoretically superior to the other, that's kind of silly.

[2327] It's not about superior.

[2328] I feel you're getting juices and stuff out when you use a processor.

[2329] Well, I just dump all of it in with the juice.

[2330] To me, it's just like, well, everything that would have made it in there now is in there, but there's not one single.

[2331] But it's instead of it retaining it.

[2332] it within itself.

[2333] It's like, I don't know if there is a molecular reason or not, but this is where chefs, it's a skill, right?

[2334] Like, it's more than just they're throwing ingredients.

[2335] That's, knife work is a skill that they perfected.

[2336] You call it knife work.

[2337] So, yeah.

[2338] That's what it is.

[2339] So, you know, they're not going to do that because it's part of the whole thing.

[2340] What kind of noodles did you use?

[2341] I used Pappardelli.

[2342] Is that the kind I use?

[2343] I like the ones that are.

[2344] No, you like angel hair.

[2345] Right.

[2346] And I like the ones that are in a package in the refrigerated section of yeah you like what's it called um it has a brand i can't even i know i don't even know it at all those are incredible noodles but you didn't use those no i used a thicker they just like fresh pasta yeah they're really good and you started out hard yep okay yep all right started as a hard noodle you limped them up uh huh okay it was good but i did eat it at uh 11 at night yeah was it that late it was 1045 oh wow yeah right before night night I know.

[2347] It's a big bunch of...

[2348] Do you have a huge poop this morning when you woke up?

[2349] I know.

[2350] That's my favorite thing about my spaghetti is I always am, I'm guaranteed a very satisfying evacuation the next day.

[2351] I didn't know.

[2352] Sorry to hear that.

[2353] So, yeah.

[2354] All right.

[2355] Well, I think that's that.

[2356] We covered it all.

[2357] We covered it all.

[2358] I'm mad you didn't bring me any, you know.

[2359] I'm getting less and less optimistic that I will ever try anything because you just made meatballs that you didn't bring me and then you made bull on it you bought like two of my favorite things you didn't bring them but I'm scared yeah so I'm gonna my new expectation is I'm not ever gonna try unless I join one of these girls nights which I'm forbade to join I probably I'm never gonna try I maybe we'll still bring you the bolognaise okay well it only tastes better today and tomorrow and the next day yeah right exactly all right love you love you Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2360] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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