LIVE FROM AUSTIN: Brené Brown

[0] He's an armchair expert.

[1] He's an armchair expert.

[2] He's an armchair expert.

[3] I'm seriously welling up.

[4] Like, Arm cherries.

[5] There's 1 ,500 arm cherries here tonight.

[6] It's very exciting.

[7] Although I know some of the dudes don't want to be, don't be known as norm cherries.

[8] I get a lot of tweets from dudes like, I don't know, man, arm cherries.

[9] I don't think so.

[10] Holy shit did Robert Ellis play that guitar?

[11] Oh my god, you guys.

[12] We are so excited to be in Austin, Texas.

[13] Sincerely, this is, without question, my favorite city in this country.

[14] Last night, there's 11 of us in our group and seven of us got food poisoning last night.

[15] It's not a sad story.

[16] It's not a sad story, because I didn't get it.

[17] So I'm one of the four strong ones.

[18] And the place we ate at it, I will not, it'll remain nameless because I don't want to sink a local business but what's funny is I was texting with Lizzie today and I said oh yeah, seven of us got food poisoning we're up all last night I said but the food worth the food poisoning it was good and Lizzie said might be the best Yelp review of all time totally worth the food poisoning now armchair expert has a resident babe a genius she would now want me to tell you this but she was one of the seven.

[19] If she can make it out here, one of my soulmates in life, please welcome Monica Padman.

[20] Monica Padman, she did take a cute little...

[21] I'm all better.

[22] That's all I needed.

[23] You took a little cat nap, didn't you?

[24] Well, earlier on this couch.

[25] I slept on this couch to recover.

[26] But worth it.

[27] Totally worth it.

[28] Food worth it.

[29] But this is worth it.

[30] But you'd go.

[31] back tonight, wouldn't you, to the place we eat?

[32] 100%.

[33] Obviously.

[34] Duh.

[35] Obviously.

[36] So the guest tonight, the surprise guest, is a very smart human being.

[37] She clue.

[38] She has the fourth most viewed TED Talk of all time.

[39] She is a professor at the University of Houston.

[40] Houston.

[41] Without further ado, please welcome to the stage, Brene Brown.

[42] What a beautiful care package.

[43] U .T. Is this Longhorn?

[44] Oh, that's...

[45] Oh, this is...

[46] Longhorn, okay.

[47] This is all Longhorn stuff, right?

[48] No, there's some jerky from Buckees.

[49] Oh, there is, okay.

[50] So it's a cornucopia of all things, Texas.

[51] And a couple of Topochicos.

[52] Oh.

[53] All right, I did them right.

[54] Chopichikos.

[55] Yeah.

[56] What is it?

[57] Chope chico.

[58] Wow Uh -oh Guys, I'm trying to learn I'm trying to being vulnerable and asking about something I don't know about Okay, let's start here Topo Topo Chico Topo Chico Now I know Topo means Watercraft And I know Cheapo means inexpensive So this is what Like a fishing boat Like an aluminum fishing boat I think I should recall my Topo Chico No, it's sparkling water With the perfect, which I'll agree The perfect bubble ratio We like a bubble water Well, some of the people here know my history with bubble water Yeah And it involves shitting my pants at Home Depot And that's sincere It's true If bubble water makes you shit your pants That's a disaster pant Waiting to happen You heard I had dodged the bullet last night And you're like, oh, we'll see if you dodge that bullet We'll see.

[59] So, I want to catch people up to speak.

[60] Clearly, most of you knew Brunay, but Brene, you had a very big TED talk that is now number four of all time.

[61] And it was called the power of vulnerability.

[62] Yes.

[63] And can you just quickly say what type of professor you are?

[64] You did social work.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Representing.

[67] Representing.

[68] Is that, now, forgive my ignorance.

[69] is that did you major in sociology?

[70] No, social work.

[71] Social work.

[72] Bachelor's, master's, PhD, all social work.

[73] Okay, it has its own discipline.

[74] Okay, great.

[75] And now you went to undergrad here at University of Texas.

[76] I did.

[77] And I'm just going to guess roughly, I don't really know your age.

[78] And just for the sake of this joke, you'll pretend this is what age you are.

[79] But when you were at UT, did McConaughey wear shirts then?

[80] Matthew McConaughey.

[81] I mean, not with me as much, but with that.

[82] There was just a lot of all right, all right, all right.

[83] Yeah, absolutely.

[84] I'm older than Matthew McConaughey.

[85] Oh, you are?

[86] Are you?

[87] You are not older.

[88] Are you?

[89] Yeah.

[90] I am not placating you.

[91] Yeah.

[92] You look incredible.

[93] How old do you think he is?

[94] Let's ask that.

[95] That's a great starter.

[96] That's a great starter.

[97] Yeah.

[98] Well, I'm 43.

[99] and I think he is eight years older than me I think he's 51 then we're like the same age but he's not 50 Does anyone know how old McConnell somebody Google that shit He's not 51 You guys are roughly the same age You may have dated He looked different in college Because he had his shirt on I get this is always uncomfortable for me When we go back to the 80s Yeah I didn't know him You went to UT Oh but other you know you know what?

[100] What?

[101] No, no, no. I was on the 12 -year plan.

[102] Oh, you were?

[103] Yeah, I graduated with my undergraduate degree like six months before I turned 30.

[104] Oh, you did?

[105] Okay, that's the way to do it.

[106] Yeah.

[107] And you weren't with child.

[108] No. It's just lazy.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Yeah.

[111] I bartended a lot.

[112] Oh, you did.

[113] And I hitchhiked across Europe, and I played a lot of tennis.

[114] Oh, good.

[115] Yeah.

[116] Good for you.

[117] Yeah.

[118] You're like retired, but...

[119] First.

[120] You retired first.

[121] Sounds fun.

[122] I retired, then I went to work.

[123] Bartender at night, tennis in the day.

[124] Like one adult ed class on a Thursday night for four hours.

[125] And I worked for a large, not to be named, telecommunications company, taking calls in Spanish.

[126] Oh, really?

[127] You're fluent in Spanish?

[128] Well, you pronounce the shit out of that drink you brought me. Yeah.

[129] That's like a clue.

[130] No, but I did.

[131] I worked for AT &T.

[132] I'll just say that.

[133] But I used to say, Thank you, AT &T.

[134] My name is Pernais.

[135] How can you serve?

[136] Oh, that's phenomenal.

[137] But...

[138] I would think that was your first language if I was a caller.

[139] But, until you asked a technical question, and then I would be like, no, El Jack in the wall.

[140] And you just start saying English work.

[141] And then they transferred me to another department.

[142] But I did speak Spanish.

[143] Why did you speak Spanish?

[144] Five years of French, and then a Spanish -speaking boyfriend for a couple years.

[145] It was going to make the joke.

[146] They say lovers are the best language teachers, and in this case, that was true.

[147] Yeah.

[148] I love stereotypes.

[149] I don't know if you know this about me. So anytime a stereotype comes true, Monica's upset, and I'm delighted.

[150] Yeah.

[151] So it was a Latin lover who taught you Spanish.

[152] I'd say it was a Latin boyfriend.

[153] Okay, great.

[154] Just to narrow the box.

[155] But you grew up in San Antonio?

[156] No?

[157] Born there, yeah.

[158] And then back there, back there from like 18 to 20 something.

[159] I'm so confused about your timeline because you went to college here for 12 years.

[160] No, no, no. No, no. Yeah, no. Just for tennis tournaments and whatnot back in it.

[161] I started at St. Mary's in San Antonio.

[162] Okay.

[163] Then I got a note that said, you can't go to school here if you're not attending class and just playing tennis.

[164] That's bullshit.

[165] Of all places, I think Austin would be like, hey, we just found out.

[166] That was San Antonio, St. Mary's, yeah.

[167] Okay, okay, okay.

[168] So then I moved here, and then I started waiting tables and bartending and kind of got serious about school, but it took me a long time.

[169] Okay.

[170] And maybe this will dovetail into some stuff we talked backstage.

[171] I just want to put out there really quick that we don't know each other, right, only over Twitter, which this is one of the good stories that comes out of Twitter.

[172] It's where we met.

[173] Very few, very few, but this is one of the good ones.

[174] But we like each other on Twitter.

[175] And then I thought, okay, I really want to go into the stuff that, like, the work you've done, the research work.

[176] And then within five seconds of meeting you, we had nine disagreements within eight minutes.

[177] And I was like, oh, this is fantastic.

[178] This is what we went through in five minutes backstage, whether you can say pussy or not.

[179] I tried to make an argument that since we're saying dick, you can say pussy, but maybe we'll touch on that.

[180] I called bullshit.

[181] She calls bullshit.

[182] Yeah.

[183] My argument in a nutshell is this.

[184] First of all, first of all...

[185] In a very small nutshell.

[186] You're playing on the stereotype of penis shaming, and I accept it, and I applaud it.

[187] Oh, I wasn't even thinking about that.

[188] I think it's great.

[189] I think all the shaming should work.

[190] No, but...

[191] All the shaming.

[192] I want to say out of the gates, it's deplorable that we call people pussies referring to them as cowards, and that the...

[193] female genitalia is now somehow synonymous with weakness.

[194] So that's wrong.

[195] That's wrong.

[196] That's wrong.

[197] So I'm on the record.

[198] That is wrong.

[199] But I would argue it's equally wrong that every asshole in the world is a dick.

[200] Like, that's my genitalia, y 'all.

[201] So it's cool if my genitalia's used to shame people but not your genitalia.

[202] It feels very equal.

[203] But you don't agree.

[204] Right, because your genitalia is attached to the patriarchy.

[205] Yep.

[206] And...

[207] My testicles are in between that, but yes.

[208] No, you know what?

[209] I just think...

[210] I just think there's a...

[211] I just, yeah.

[212] I take...

[213] You don't think it's equal.

[214] No. Because the balance of power is such that it makes it different.

[215] Yeah, it's not equal.

[216] But then I proposed this question to you.

[217] I said, okay, so we're not going to use...

[218] Pussy anymore.

[219] This is all within like 20 seconds.

[220] And my wife was like, yeah, tear him up.

[221] Get in there.

[222] Fuck him up.

[223] You PhD, let him have it.

[224] So, I said, okay, pussy's off the table now.

[225] Dude doesn't want to jump off a tall bridge.

[226] It's not a pussy.

[227] Right.

[228] Smart guy.

[229] But then I said, then we can't say dick anymore.

[230] You can't say a dick cut me off in traffic.

[231] Yeah, I can.

[232] Yeah, you can.

[233] I mean, there's something poetic about, look, don't be a dick.

[234] Listen, round one is you.

[235] Round one is you.

[236] Or to put it in your terms, Love 15.

[237] Stay tuned for more live show after this exciting commercial break.

[238] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[239] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[240] You can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[241] Shame is something you talk about a lot.

[242] And I'm interested in shame for a lot of reasons.

[243] A, I carried a ton of it as a drunk.

[244] It's why I do the ninth step.

[245] All these things.

[246] Shame is just a huge component of my life.

[247] I'm very susceptible to it, and as I deserve to be for years.

[248] But I'm interested in an anthropological sense that it most certainly served a very specific purpose evolution.

[249] because, as you say, we are social animals.

[250] We live in multi -member groups.

[251] And for the vast majority of time we've been on planet Earth, we did not have governments that were enforcing rules or, you know, police, anything.

[252] So the group was enforcing all of our commonly held morals, right?

[253] And so I do believe shame was the glue that probably allowed us to coexist.

[254] We are genetically hardwired to feel shame.

[255] to keep our behavior within keeping of the group we're in.

[256] It had to have served that purpose, do you think?

[257] Absolutely.

[258] Okay.

[259] I absolutely think it had a role if you look at evolutionary biology, for sure.

[260] I mean, you do this, and you still see it in animal species.

[261] Like, you do this, and you threaten our group or you break some standard that we have.

[262] Then we shun you, which is stigma and shame, and then you die because you're not a part of the collective.

[263] Right.

[264] You've broken our little social contract in...

[265] Right.

[266] And so that's its purpose.

[267] But like so many things that helped us evolutionarily throughout our 200 ,000 -year history, are now vestigial and are cancerous to us.

[268] So my example is at Halloween, when Halloween rolls around, my brain tells me eat 20 Snickers bars.

[269] Right.

[270] because we don't know when we'll come upon another Snickers bar tree.

[271] And the season is short.

[272] Yes, it could be a year.

[273] Right.

[274] Eat every one you can get your hands on.

[275] And my brain is screaming that.

[276] And it's real.

[277] The chemicals associated with it are real.

[278] And yet I've got to combat that and go, oh, no, Snickers bars are 365 days a year.

[279] They're in bloom.

[280] And I can get them at any time.

[281] So ignore that, which is a very strong message.

[282] getting.

[283] Right.

[284] And there are so many things like that that we, but I think, so we all seem to understand that.

[285] We seem to understand we were hardwired to eat way more food than we should ever eat.

[286] Store up, yes.

[287] We accept that.

[288] What I don't think people spend a ton of time thinking about is we are also hardwired to be obsessed with our place in the group.

[289] Who's alpha, who's beta, who's gamma, you know, where am I in this group?

[290] And there's so much uncertainty, especially because we're designed to live with about 100 people, and now we live with 7 billion people.

[291] So our preoccupation with where we are at in this social hierarchy is all -consuming.

[292] For me, it's all -consuming.

[293] The example I give is we go to concerts in L .A. at this place, Hollywood Bowl.

[294] If I'm in the seventh row, I'm furious at the people six rows ahead of me. I'm sure it's happening here tonight.

[295] And what I tell myself, the logical part of my brain goes, oh, I'm mad because they can see and hear the concert better.

[296] But that's not true.

[297] What's really happening is my primate brain is going, oh, they have more access to food and mates in grooming.

[298] They are higher status.

[299] They're going to have a much better time.

[300] But I'm not aware of that.

[301] It's just blowing over my head.

[302] I'm just jealous of these people who seem to have more money and clout than me. And it's all consuming and it's mattinging.

[303] Your question was what?

[304] I just steamrolled it.

[305] No, but I just wanted to see.

[306] I was curious in your line of work and expertise, the things that you think are now vestigial that we must police ourselves against.

[307] Well, I think shame is the big one, because we don't need it anymore, because our capacity for emotion to understand emotion ourselves and others has grown so much that, I mean, you can still change a behavior on a dime with shame, especially with children.

[308] But it's like hitting a plastic thumbtap, you know, with a mallet.

[309] Like you're going to crush everything around it.

[310] And so I do think, I do think we're constantly up against that brain that is saying, where is my rank?

[311] And even below that, it's about what is my level of lovability?

[312] Like, how lovable am I?

[313] Because in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering.

[314] There's always addiction, depression, anxiety.

[315] And so I think we're constantly monitoring connection and influence because we, I mean...

[316] We're social and we want to be accepted.

[317] I mean, like, just think about, we don't think about this.

[318] Like, we're a social species.

[319] Imagine a newborn.

[320] Unattended.

[321] We'll die.

[322] Well, there was those horrific...

[323] Is my wife around?

[324] She could probably hear me. Romania, thanks, hon. Wow.

[325] I keep my database right over there.

[326] Guys, Princess Ana is just over there.

[327] Yeah, but there was those orphanage studies in Romania where that happened, unfortunately, we got data on that, which is if kids weren't touched, babies weren't touched, they died.

[328] And so think about how strong that is.

[329] It's really interesting.

[330] John Caciopo studied loneliness at University of Chicago, and he said, despite, and it speaks to your concert experience, despite what people say, a fully developed, fully functioning member of a social species is not someone who grows into complete independence.

[331] It's someone on whom others can count.

[332] So that's the mark of true, that's the pinnacle, man, that you are someone that people can count on and connect with.

[333] And I wonder if the first goal you listed, hell yeah, love 40?

[334] No. Is that how it works?

[335] Love 15, 30, 40, deuce, I won.

[336] Is that how it goes?

[337] Oh, tennis.

[338] Yeah.

[339] I was like, I'm listening.

[340] Yeah, just call it a match.

[341] That was crushing.

[342] But yeah, that first goal, you should grow up to be somebody entirely independent, which is weirdly a goal that you think you should have for your kid.

[343] Totally, yeah.

[344] Do you think it's uniquely American?

[345] Like, that's kind of what we've been selling for a while.

[346] I just think we've leveraged the shit out.

[347] of that message.

[348] I don't know.

[349] You know what I mean?

[350] Like I just think we have been, we have taken that and combined it with our pioneer spirit and all that stuff and just marketed the shit out of that idea.

[351] Yeah.

[352] Yeah, it's kind of how we, well, even the American dream, I'll be dangerous and say the American dream, which is certainly working for some people, clearly.

[353] I'm the recipient of it.

[354] There are many people that are the recipient of it.

[355] Also, statistically, it says it's not really functioning if you're born into a certain strata.

[356] The percentage is horrifically low of people who escape that.

[357] But part of it, we do have to kind of like remind everyone of the, like the Disneyland aspect, right?

[358] And that's part of it, maybe.

[359] And I think it, I think, you know, I think it's part of what makes capitalism work.

[360] Like, I think selling the deal of independence.

[361] But it's so funny because when I listen to Armchair, one of the things that, one thread that I would say I hear across a lot of the interviews is you always seem to equate success with generosity.

[362] I mean, you talk a lot.

[363] You talk a lot when you're interviewing people about how generous they are and the role of generosity.

[364] So I...

[365] Well, yeah, yeah, and one thing I talk a lot about with people, because quite often the people I interview have attained the thing that is the American dream, which is they're famous and they are rich.

[366] And then I have asked now 48 people if it cured all of their existential crises or if they woke up in the morning and liked the person they saw in the mirror.

[367] And without except...

[368] Well, Mark Marin.

[369] without besides Mark Marin that hasn't solved anything for anybody in fact it was so refreshing when he said no it is worked like I have money now and I'm famous and then that's the one we should hoist up to keep the model going yeah yeah yeah so the thing that I am interested in is and then I just learned this backstage about you and I don't know how open you are about it but we're both over now you're open about it We're both sober.

[370] Super open.

[371] And I think through sobriety, you kind of learn some tools about what things actually do make you like your reflection in the mirror.

[372] And they're just unfortunately not those things, right?

[373] Yeah, unfortunately they're not.

[374] They're much harder things.

[375] And actually, I think when you, one thing I've noticed since my career has changed is authenticity is one of those things.

[376] that keeps me centered and grounded.

[377] And the more that I experience, I guess, traditionally what successes, you know, number one books or a big TED talk, the more scared, shitless I am to be myself.

[378] Because then I feel like I got a lot to lose now.

[379] And now there's 30 people who work with me. And, you know, and now I got to watch everything I say and do the exact opposite of what made me successful.

[380] I was going to ask you that.

[381] As you get known for being someone with a lot of the answers, don't you run a big risk to yourself?

[382] I find myself guilty of this.

[383] It's like my wife, a lot of her girlfriends, will ask me for advice.

[384] And I like that.

[385] It gives me self -esteem.

[386] And then there's nothing pervy yet going on.

[387] Just I'm giggling.

[388] That'll come.

[389] But I have to please myself because, oh, I like this role of someone who's got the answers.

[390] and then I've now, I can't admit my own failings because I'm afraid if I admit to you, well, I fucked up just yesterday.

[391] Like, I'm telling you these things, but I just broke my own rule yesterday, or I did something regrettable this morning.

[392] I'm afraid I'll lose that position as someone who has the answers.

[393] And do you, do you have that fear, having become known for having quite a few of the answers?

[394] No, because I think the people who follow my work are super clear that I fuck up all the time.

[395] Oh, okay, good.

[396] Yeah, because I, like, I mostly write about that.

[397] Like, I mostly say, look, hey, this is what I discovered about wholeheartedness, and in that bullshit, and doesn't that make you want to kick somebody in the face?

[398] Like, I'm, like, super honest about that.

[399] So, I'm pretty straightforward.

[400] So, like, if someone sees me, like, I've got friends, though, that are kind of in my field, and they get, like, if their kid is, like, throwing the Cheetos out of the basket, the grocery store, and screaming, I hate you.

[401] And then people are like, oh, my God, but, but.

[402] You're the expert, but if people see that with my kids, they're like, oh, right on, right, I know.

[403] Yeah.

[404] Yeah, I'm not going to shame you because that's going to be my kid in the next aisle.

[405] Yeah.

[406] I never went evangelical perfect.

[407] So, therefore, I will never have to cry and admit my imperfection.

[408] I went straight on imperfect.

[409] Right.

[410] Well, what's really funny is you and I have a similar embracing of one topic in particular, which is I discovered you after we started this podcast.

[411] you seem to love the messiness of being human.

[412] That seems to be like an actual phrase you use as well.

[413] I love it.

[414] You don't have a boat called D's Notts, do you?

[415] But yeah, you seem to...

[416] No. You probably don't know that my dream in life is doing a boat called D's Nots.

[417] And then I was heartbroken to discover that someone already owns a boat called these knots.

[418] And he thought maybe that they heard it on the podcast.

[419] and then they named their boat these months, which...

[420] It's so embarrassing.

[421] Lovable.

[422] Okay, good, good, good, good.

[423] Like, you know, yeah.

[424] So you seem to use the word worthiness in a way that I generally maybe think of self -esteem.

[425] So tell me about worthiness.

[426] Am I wrong to think that?

[427] Because you describe worthiness is believing you're worthy of being accepted by the, group is really the answer.

[428] Yeah.

[429] But we're believing, I think believing that not if and not win, no prerequisites right now, as is messy, wounded, broken in places, put back together with a new little duct tape and glue like, I am worthy of love and belonging and joy right now.

[430] That's to me what worthiness is.

[431] I think people call it self -esteem.

[432] You know, that's probably like an academic thing because that's a dicey term in my field.

[433] Yeah.

[434] Oh, tell me why.

[435] You're full of shit, but tell me why I'll let you try.

[436] It's a great term.

[437] Don't be a dick.

[438] Okay.

[439] What do you drink it?

[440] A Diet Coke.

[441] A little DC.

[442] Full DC.

[443] It really makes the nicotine pop.

[444] It's a nice companion piece.

[445] It kind of turbocharges the nicotine.

[446] Do you smoke?

[447] I quit 12 years ago.

[448] Oh, I quit drinking and smoking the same day.

[449] Oh, you did.

[450] I bet you were such a pleasure to be around the next day.

[451] You know what?

[452] Do you miss smoking?

[453] Because you're such a pushover now.

[454] Just 12 years, yeah, 20 years later.

[455] Yeah.

[456] I can only imagine.

[457] Like a bowl in a china shop.

[458] Yeah, day one.

[459] Yeah.

[460] Did you, do you miss smoking?

[461] I don't miss smoking at all.

[462] Weirdly, thank God, when I see it happening, now I actually go like, oh my God, how preposterous.

[463] I was like putting smoke in these tiny little fragile.

[464] bags in my chest that was crazy and then even just today because the last time I was here was for a movie I'd made and my dad was in it and I was thinking a lot about my dad today and I was thinking about the fact that he used to fucking dry he had a nice Corvette we lived in a welfare apartment building but he had a Corvette he just put his cigarettes out in his new car when you got in his Corvette it's just hundreds of cigarette butts just put out in the armrest virtually of the car that's crazy I'm like why not just spit in the car like just chew tobacco and spit in the glove box so you're a hateful ex -smoker I'm not a no I'm not hateful it just it really clicked at one point like oh that's a real gross thing I was doing to myself if you smoke that's awesome I'll buy you a pack of cigarettes I'm not judgmental but just somehow it occurred to me wow that's about actually if I was going to pick one thing I was going to go back to smoking or cocaine I would go back to cocaine.

[465] I think I would die sooner of cigarettes.

[466] It sounds like you've cheated recently.

[467] No. Oh.

[468] No, you know what?

[469] I won't ever do it again because of my kids.

[470] Okay.

[471] But I miss smoking all the time.

[472] You do.

[473] All the time.

[474] Have you ever tried the lozenges?

[475] No, I don't want that.

[476] I just want to, especially, like, I usually have a pen in my car.

[477] So like if a good song comes on, like Metallica or, you know, something.

[478] And then I just need to crack the window and smoke the pen.

[479] Punctuate it.

[480] Oh, wait, you have a pen?

[481] Yeah.

[482] A vape pen.

[483] Oh, just a writing pen.

[484] A ballpoint pen.

[485] Or as you would say, a belegrifo.

[486] A bellegrofo?

[487] Yeah.

[488] Come on say, do you say pen?

[489] Boligrapho?

[490] Oh, yeah.

[491] That was still, I was like, I didn't know where you could go.

[492] I'm going to be going backwards and forth.

[493] That's good.

[494] I'll go with you.

[495] Okay.

[496] You'll smoke your pen.

[497] Like a bit pen.

[498] Just something I can hold and, like, Like, flick out the window, like, get your motor running, like that.

[499] Head out on the highway.

[500] Good, wait.

[501] Looking for my big pen.

[502] A ballpoint will do.

[503] And every now and then, if it's a really good lyric, the smoke should come out of your nose.

[504] Uh -huh.

[505] Okay, you got me. I'll tell you when I miss it.

[506] Okay.

[507] Did not take long.

[508] That was 20 seconds.

[509] This is why two addicts should never hang out.

[510] It's like, you're right, it was good.

[511] And music did sound better.

[512] And I was more optimistic.

[513] And chicks loved me when I smoked.

[514] The chicks.

[515] Oh, they fucking love it.

[516] What was that?

[517] I couldn't hear you.

[518] I was lighting my cigarette.

[519] Oh, fucking packing the shit out of those.

[520] Yeah.

[521] Like, and what a weird goal.

[522] The goal is to, like, expose some more of the paper.

[523] So, like, when you light it in front of your chick, you're like, and then it fucking blows up at the end of, wasn't that cool?

[524] I almost caught on fire.

[525] Packing it, and then wait, wait, what if you say, what if you say, like you're in a bar on 6th Street, and you go, hey, you got a light, and they pull out the zippo.

[526] Oh, yeah.

[527] Panty dropper.

[528] Pants off.

[529] And then if they take the zip, open it like that, when they're like, boom.

[530] Boom.

[531] Yes.

[532] Yeah.

[533] That's got some.

[534] a mojo.

[535] You got to admit.

[536] Yeah, I will admit that.

[537] You and I should get out of here and just grab a pack of camel lights.

[538] Fuck this place.

[539] Anyway, what we were talking about?

[540] Fuck worthiness and self -esteem.

[541] Let's burn some butts.

[542] Cut to us at the Four Seasons in bed.

[543] Did you say you were married?

[544] Yeah, weren't we sober two hours ago?

[545] Woo!

[546] I don't...

[547] You know what?

[548] I've never missed the drinking.

[549] You haven't.

[550] Not once.

[551] Can I just tell you when I miss smoking?

[552] Because you had me. Rainy day, that's it.

[553] Go ahead.

[554] When do you miss drinking?

[555] Or you don't miss drinking.

[556] You don't ever miss drinking.

[557] No, but I don't, you know.

[558] You couldn't even hold that.

[559] You couldn't even pull that off for 25 seconds.

[560] No, but listen.

[561] This is true.

[562] I went to an A meeting.

[563] My first, you know, I was going to do six meetings and six days.

[564] That's not how it goes, but go ahead.

[565] There's seven days in a week, but go ahead.

[566] There's no saying in A, six and six.

[567] Well, I have, there's 90 and 90.

[568] In Houston, that's what they weigh they doing.

[569] Oh, there's only six days a week in Houston.

[570] Well, you rest on, it's a spiritual program.

[571] You rest on the seven days.

[572] Okay, okay.

[573] I was in church filling the God -sized hole, so back the fuck off.

[574] But, think about this.

[575] Wait, where was, I did this disappoint.

[576] Six meetings six days was the goal.

[577] Maybe we have different slogans here.

[578] Apparently.

[579] Again, we have seven days in LA, so of course there's going to be different slogans.

[580] It was six and six.

[581] So when you guys say open, you go 24 -6?

[582] Oh, you're going to love that restaurant.

[583] Yeah, they're always open, 24 -6.

[584] And then what's six times 52, 350.

[585] I'm so glad that we kept dick in the lexicon.

[586] Yeah, you're going to need it.

[587] Like, I'm glad that made the cut.

[588] Because, no, so here's what happened.

[589] I go, I go to the meeting, but I didn't feel, like, I got, I got some stink eye from some of the old timers.

[590] Sure, that happens.

[591] Yeah.

[592] Then I went to another meeting, and then I was like, let me find, like, the temporary sponsor, and I found that.

[593] And we went out to dinner, and she's like, she talked to me for a couple hours, and she said, I don't know where you belong.

[594] And I said, what do you mean?

[595] And she goes, I don't know if you're drunk enough for AA.

[596] and she said, but you're pretty codependent.

[597] And here's what you should do.

[598] She said, I want you.

[599] Two compliments.

[600] Yeah.

[601] Oh, yeah.

[602] Which, by the way, only people that are addicts would be offended by you're not drunk enough.

[603] I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[604] I was built more on my shirt than you've drank.

[605] It was, it was.

[606] I was like, I am, maybe I need to show her.

[607] So then she said, here's what I want you to do.

[608] I want you to try all these different meetings, and I want you to quit drinking, smoking, emotional eating, and trying to take care of other people in your life.

[609] Wow.

[610] On one day, at once?

[611] That's why I took the seventh day off.

[612] Yeah, you deserve it.

[613] I hope you just didn't wake up that seventh day.

[614] So I was like, she said I had the poo -poo platter of addiction.

[615] Oh.

[616] Yeah.

[617] And so I said, okay, and I tried all those things.

[618] But I don't know that drinking, drinking was hard.

[619] It wasn't as hard as smoking.

[620] Yeah.

[621] The only emotion that leads me to want to drink is when I get super, like, max anxiety.

[622] And probably five or six times in the last 21 years, I thought, oh, this is why people drink wine after work.

[623] Well, kids who's brought that out in me. Like, but yeah, a three and a five -year -old, when you get through the war zone and they're finally in bed, I'm like, I get it.

[624] You need a drink after that.

[625] Like, you really need.

[626] You need a lot of drinks after that.

[627] Yeah, you do.

[628] Sometimes you need to black right out after that.

[629] No, and it's, but you know what?

[630] Whoa, sorry.

[631] And I also, can I just say, too?

[632] I'll be places.

[633] And I'm looking at the other parents and they're cheating because they're drunk.

[634] And so.

[635] That's totally cheating if you're drunk when they're awake.

[636] Yeah.

[637] Not to mention, not good.

[638] But it looks awesome.

[639] Like, you go on vacation, the parents are drunk, and they don't hear the screaming or any of this stuff.

[640] They're not worried how the kids are going to turn out or anything.

[641] It looks so liberating until the morning.

[642] And then in the morning, I'm like, aha.

[643] Now your kids are twice as loud as mine are.

[644] So it's all, what do you want?

[645] You're like living for the morning or living for the evening.

[646] Yeah.

[647] Okay.

[648] No, I think that I always say that if everyone who takes the edge off every night with a few beers or glasses of red wine stop drinking, vineyards across the world would collapse within 24 hours.

[649] Like, you may not, you may not, everyone may not numb chronically and compulsively, which I think is addiction.

[650] But people definitely numb to their detriment.

[651] I mean, we have got a world full of numbers.

[652] Uh -huh.

[653] Well, right.

[654] So numbing is one of the.

[655] topics that you've done a lot of writing on and in public speaking on and yeah tell us about numbing because there's a trillion ways to numb right you can be online buying shit yeah for sure right yeah i think it's this is this is what i think was most shocking for me about the research that you cannot selectively numb emotion so when you say this is really hard i'm in grief or disappointment or anxiety and you use something to take the edge of off of the hard stuff.

[656] You, by default, are numbing the light as well.

[657] You cannot selectively numb emotion.

[658] Yeah.

[659] So the edge of pain may be dulled, but the edge of joy will also be dulled.

[660] Yeah.

[661] And so it's really difficult.

[662] You know, I mean, we talked about this backstage because my kids are 13 and 19.

[663] And I was telling you, my husband is just not, he's the kind of guy that, like, drinks a 12 pack a year.

[664] or he'll get out some chips he's here tonight i wonder yeah yeah hi steve steve what now just can i ask steve a quick question when you drink that 12th beer i guess in month number 12 is it terned or does it taste good stuff is it shitty or is it just as good as the january beer we have we're i don't know where you are but do we or do we not have beer in our refrigerator that's like three years old Steve left.

[665] Good for him.

[666] Bye Steve.

[667] See you.

[668] You want to talk about self -care?

[669] He's like, I've heard you talk.

[670] You're smart.

[671] We get it.

[672] You know what else he does?

[673] I bet he's with Kristen.

[674] At the bar.

[675] It's like a pounding of beer.

[676] Smoking and drinking at the four seasons.

[677] They just finished up.

[678] They're going to see what's on the movie selection.

[679] You know what Steve does?

[680] Steve will say, I want some chips.

[681] He'll get the bag of chips.

[682] He'll pull out like, a handful, put it in a bowl, put the bag back together and put the clip back on the bag.

[683] So he's a psychopath.

[684] It's weird because I just met Steve and I shook his hand and he looked like a normal person and now I realize he is a psychopath.

[685] He just doesn't have that, like, I'm going to have some.

[686] Yeah, the like reason to be on planet Earth.

[687] He does.

[688] Yeah, he doesn't have that.

[689] He doesn't know.

[690] He just...

[691] That's not true.

[692] He's a wonderful person.

[693] He is amazing.

[694] Yeah, and he's probably treating Kristen very nicely.

[695] He just leans into all the stuff as opposed to, you know, taking the edge off.

[696] Like, we need the edge.

[697] Like, I've never, I don't think I've interviewed a single person in 20 years, and we're talking about thousands and thousands of people that didn't want, like, more joy, more intimacy, more trust, more love, but also wanted, you know, less pain, less, you know, and so you can't have it both ways.

[698] Yes, but wouldn't you agree?

[699] Like, I'm very pro -drinking for people who can have a couple beers a night.

[700] think it's awesome.

[701] I hope many of you are half in the bag, at least.

[702] Yeah.

[703] I'm kind of pro, like, let's just put it this way.

[704] We're living in an environment that is not one we were designed for.

[705] And so some alleviating of that stress, I think if you can do it in a balanced way, I'm pretty for that.

[706] Are you for that?

[707] I'm for real comfort and real enjoyment.

[708] I'm not for numbing the shit out of things.

[709] But have you ever wakeboarded with four beers in you?

[710] Not that I can remember.

[711] Okay.

[712] Then it was probably more than four.

[713] Yeah.

[714] But do you think that Steve's genetic disposition or something he was just raised well?

[715] No, I think, I mean, I think for sure, I feel bad to talk about Steve a lot, but I think it's, I think it's...

[716] He's not here.

[717] He'll never know.

[718] It's true.

[719] He left, yeah.

[720] No, I think it's how, I think it's wiring.

[721] I think, I mean, I think we both have addiction on both sides of our families.

[722] I think we've told our kids and say we're probably in kindergarten, look, because I believe in this idea, because I think there's enough good science behind the idea that genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger.

[723] And so we've just said, you know, you're locked and loaded for a lot of stuff, and we don't know how it's going to turn out, and it could be nothing or it could be something.

[724] So the longer you wait to explore those things, the safer it will be.

[725] Because if you do it while your brain's still developing and this stuff is happening.

[726] So we're really honest about it.

[727] And I'll tell you the other thing that was really shocking to me as a parent is having to have a conversation with my kids about when they spend the night at other people's houses, how much parents drink.

[728] and like, you know, like saying, like, I don't want you in the car with this dad after 9 o 'clock.

[729] Yeah.

[730] That's awkward to have a 13 -year -old have to say.

[731] It is, yeah.

[732] And it's also putting a lot on them.

[733] It is.

[734] Yeah.

[735] But just to counter that, the joy of doing mushrooms in your own family home, it's so confusing.

[736] You're like trying to wrap the head around.

[737] Like, I grew up here.

[738] Like, I grew up here.

[739] And you feel like you should know something because you grew up in this room.

[740] There's a few things can compete with that.

[741] The joy of that.

[742] You know what?

[743] I've never done drugs.

[744] Oh, you haven't.

[745] Never.

[746] We're going to get some tonight on our way to the four seasons.

[747] Here it is.

[748] I hope so.

[749] Yeah, I've never done.

[750] We're going to expand our consciousness.

[751] Because I started high school, so this is true, in 1979.

[752] So I graduated in 83.

[753] And I don't know if this was true everywhere, but, like, when I was growing up in high school, everyone talked about, like, Like, if you do drugs, a million spiders come out of your eyeballs, or there's a girl that walked through a plate glass window.

[754] Do you remember that?

[755] They're after -school specials, yeah.

[756] Total.

[757] Yeah, and I was like, and then I went to a high school that was on the cover of People magazine for more suicides than any other high school in the U .S. at that time.

[758] Because they weren't doing shrooms?

[759] I don't know.

[760] Maybe that's what we were missing.

[761] But it was so, like...

[762] It was heavy.

[763] The whole thing was pretty heavy.

[764] And I never, just because I was like...

[765] I like to drink and party and get wild.

[766] Didn't mean I wouldn't in control shit.

[767] So like to do something that you swallowed and then like, who knows?

[768] No, no. I'm the same way.

[769] And it's his mission in life to get me to do much.

[770] Oh, God.

[771] Oh, good.

[772] I have teammates.

[773] But what do you think about all the new research on psychedelic drugs?

[774] And like...

[775] Well, so there's a ton now of very smart people recommending it, especially at end of life because...

[776] And grief, yeah.

[777] Yeah, because you guys maybe have heard these podcasts.

[778] There was, I wish I could remember the guy's name, but in essence what happens is if you take the right amount of psilocybin, the area of your brain that's really in charge of your identity and your sense of self, it just kind of gets obliterated.

[779] It goes offline, and then you're more able to experience the part of your brain that can feel connectedness and life and all the things that we'd probably like to be in better touch with.

[780] So definitely with people that are towards the end of their life and they're wrestling a ton with self and identity, it can be really helpful to help them feel the connectedness that we all have.

[781] Who wrote the book, The Omnivore's Dilemma?

[782] Oh, that's the guy, yes.

[783] He's the guy that's...

[784] Michael Pollan, Pollock.

[785] Jackson Pollock, thank you.

[786] No. Jackson Pollock.

[787] Jackson Pollock.

[788] But you're right, he's the guy who currently is making the circuit.

[789] his book, and I just bought it because I listened to a podcast with him and Tim Ferriss.

[790] Yep, that's what I heard, too.

[791] And it was very persuasive.

[792] Yeah.

[793] And I believe there's things that we don't know.

[794] Well, you know, Bill W. did LSD therapy in sobriety.

[795] I'm not advocating that.

[796] I'm just, this is a historical fact that Bill W. did LSD therapy while sober.

[797] They talked about that on the seventh day.

[798] I was not there.

[799] You were not there, okay.

[800] I wasn't there for that.

[801] Now, okay, so really quick, you and I both, we share a, a belief, we almost fetishize, vulnerability.

[802] Because it is my experience in life that I don't really learn a lot from people telling about me about their victories.

[803] True.

[804] Like, and then day eight, I summoned Everest.

[805] And I'm like, cool.

[806] I have a hard time taking, like, three flights of stairs.

[807] Thanks.

[808] You know.

[809] But if someone's like, oh, my God, I fucking blew up at my kids.

[810] last night and I said this and then I said that and then I'm then I like you have my attention and I'm like yeah I did that thing too and then maybe if that person found out something on the backside of that that helped them now maybe they've earned my trust I know they're flawed like me and and that is the magic of AA in my experience which is we're just in there going like well I fucking blew it this you know on the way here I've seen guys get to AA meetings who were at a in a fist fight at a street light down the street then to realize they're both going to an AA meeting, come in holding hands.

[811] I'm like, that sums up the whole experience.

[812] It does.

[813] And I think it's, too, when you're sitting there and there's this, I can't remember what it says, maybe you'll tell me exactly in the big book, but it says we're not here to deflate an overblown ego.

[814] We're here to find self -worth.

[815] I mean, like, and when you're sitting there, and like, that's why when I was getting my, right, when I was getting my PhD after my, I got sober the day after I finished my MSW.

[816] Oh, wow.

[817] Yeah, and I got sober because the last assignment in my MSW program was to draw a genogram, which is a map of your family.

[818] And so I got on the phone with my mom, and I was, like, mapping this family.

[819] And I was like, it was like, you know, shake the family tree and the drunks fall out.

[820] Like, I was like, oh, my God.

[821] Oh, my God.

[822] Yeah.

[823] And all I had grown up hearing was like wild folklore stories about these people.

[824] Like, they were fun and they were wild.

[825] Uncle Cal shot Uncle Doug's head off.

[826] Like, for real, the hantles on my grandma's side, they shot each other.

[827] Well, that's exactly the mean.

[828] Was a great story when you're like eight?

[829] Yeah, and he was like, I really was a story where he robbed a bank and his dad was the sheriff and said, if you don't leave Texas in the next 20 minutes, I'm going to kill you and kill your children.

[830] But he fell in love with a girl in El Paso and so he stayed, but the dad shot him.

[831] I'm like, um...

[832] It's like, Elmore Leonard novel.

[833] It's like...

[834] I mean, it is.

[835] It's great.

[836] And you're like, yeah, I'm just a Texan.

[837] Like that's right.

[838] But then you're like, oh my God.

[839] Well, once you realize like, oh, I'm, I'm in route to be Uncle Cal. That's when it freaks you out like, oh, yeah.

[840] Well, I've had a gun out in someone's present.

[841] I didn't shoot them, but I had that experience.

[842] Yes, I've had a gun out in someone's presence, annihilated drunk.

[843] Not to bring it down.

[844] Yeah, I've had a dozen scenarios that could have gone sideways when blacked out.

[845] And when you start realizing like, oh my God, I'm actually taking the baby steps to end up there, that's, you know, it's hard to have perspective on your own life.

[846] For sure.

[847] It's almost impossible.

[848] And that's why I think the genogram was so helpful because I was like, I just said my mom, I was like, this is a shit show.

[849] And she's like, tell me I was there.

[850] Yeah.

[851] And I was like, yeah.

[852] And so, in some ways, it was a high bottom because I just decided I was like, I'm not doing this.

[853] I can see where, I can play the story to the end.

[854] And so for me, it was really about, it was making a choice.

[855] But it's an incredible experience.

[856] And if you've never been to an AA meeting, I don't know where you get this experience, because I've never had it elsewhere in life, other than maybe this show where you sit down with strangers and you hear their, their shortcomings and their failures and the vulnerability.

[857] and it's the first place I ever witnessed it.

[858] Maybe in like my core group of friends growing up in Detroit, we had those moments.

[859] But outside of that, get it, Detroit, Motor City Madhouse.

[860] Where do you get that in life?

[861] I don't know where that exists.

[862] That wasn't my experience the times I went to church.

[863] Maybe that's your experience.

[864] You still like church still.

[865] You like church, right?

[866] It's okay.

[867] You know what?

[868] I like God.

[869] You like God.

[870] Okay.

[871] Yeah, I like God.

[872] I've fallen out with church a little bit.

[873] You have.

[874] I've fallen out with church a little bit.

[875] What seemed, it's not incongruous.

[876] I learned this on the podcast.

[877] It's incongruous.

[878] What seemed incongruous with your adversion to shame is that you would go to a place that to me seemed like the biggest perpetuator of shame historically, organized religion.

[879] Right?

[880] It's kind of like, it's the coal in the furnace of, religion is, at least from my outside perspective, seems to be shame.

[881] I also know it's the big recruiting tool for like ISIS.

[882] That's sincere.

[883] They find these guys and they're like, we know you've done something terrible.

[884] And they're like, yeah, because we all think we've done something terrible.

[885] In my case, I have.

[886] I did you just learned with the guns.

[887] But that tool, you've done something terrible.

[888] It would take you a lifetime if you're lucky to get to the right place.

[889] but I can give you a shortcut, that seems like a good path, and that's so dangerous.

[890] But anyways, tell me how you've, like, when you were enjoying religion that, how did you compartmentalize that?

[891] That sounds condescending, but tell me about that.

[892] No, it's not.

[893] I mean, I think I wrestle with everything you just said.

[894] Okay.

[895] So, I think taking a broad whack at all churches is hard, because I think there are some churches that, you know.

[896] So I'll just share the research with you.

[897] Okay, great.

[898] Yeah, so here's what we found, that people always ask, is there one denomination more shaming than others?

[899] And the answer was no, except there were congregations that bubbled up as more shaming.

[900] So it's not about...

[901] I can't imagine those Westboro Baptist folks.

[902] Well, that's one congregation.

[903] Right, that's one congregation.

[904] Yeah, but that's, they're just hateful, assholes.

[905] Like...

[906] Well, hold on.

[907] Yeah.

[908] Oh, God.

[909] Oh, I wouldn't be surprised.

[910] I would not be surprised.

[911] I'm just going to turn it over here.

[912] It's going to collapse.

[913] We'll just get in the fetal position.

[914] They were at that one day, I can't even say it.

[915] They were at that one funeral.

[916] They made a great point about parking.

[917] But, you know, I think if you look at them and you think, you know, I mean, obviously we don't.

[918] But I think there are some churches and some organizations that work really hard to do the opposite, to say, you're here, we see you, you belong.

[919] it doesn't matter we're all together and I think that's the power right now for me I'm struggling a little bit because I don't know why I'm struggling I go in and out of church I go I'm full -time God but I go in and out of church uh -huh now but I do I miss it when I'm gone the community part I get that's it that's it and then I get it at meetings and I go oh I get religion because there is a power in community and but then again that's a tiny bit dicey because that's also like in -group there's a little in -group out -group there's a little part of your brain that's being satiated by that because you defined yourself in opposition to other people and that's a little tricky as well um but currently so we're we're you're you don't have any real reason to tell me that it's not a shame factory no I think some churches are I think it's how people use God I don't think God is inherently shaming right I think how people use God is inherently shaming.

[920] And when I go to church, I go for three reasons.

[921] I go to pass the peace with people I don't know.

[922] I go to sing with strangers and I go to take communion with people who I probably, if we were talking about politics or social issues, I'd want to punch in the face.

[923] I want to go somewhere in my life to experience collective joy and to believe there's something greater and biggest that that brings us together and for me that is God and I want to share that with people but I do get really frustrated with the sausage making piece I don't need a congregation or some kind of like convention of people to call together a meeting to see if we should ordain gay lesbian transgendered queer people people.

[924] I don't need that.

[925] And if you need to talk about that, I don't want to talk about that.

[926] That's, like, if we're not fighting for that, then you're not on God's side.

[927] You know, so that's where I get frustrated.

[928] So you just hit on something that you and I also seem to have a lot of concern over, and I talk about it ad nauseum, and I want to hear you talk about it, which is how siloed we are in our political points of view.

[929] and what the result of that is, because you actually have data on what the result of that is, which is increased loneliness ironically, right?

[930] Yeah, you would think, I mean, so we're, you know, it's some of the stuff I wrote about in Braving the Wilderness.

[931] So we're the most kind of sorted by belief Americans ever in history.

[932] We now, more than ever, live with, worship with, hang out with people who believe like us, politically and culturally.

[933] Yet at the same time, we're also more lonely than we've ever been, ever.

[934] Right.

[935] It's counterintuitive.

[936] It is counterintuitive, except that what I have figured out from the research and the interviews is that it's exactly what you say about the in -group, out -group stuff, which is we are, I call it common enemy intimacy.

[937] Yes.

[938] We hang out together because the only thing we actually have in common is we hate the same people.

[939] Yes, and I rail about this a lot.

[940] That's a terrible reason to like one another.

[941] God, it's terrible.

[942] You see this in high school all the time.

[943] It's like, I fucking hate Depeche Mode.

[944] You do too?

[945] Yeah, fuck Depeche Mode.

[946] Yeah, it's exactly it.

[947] Let's go have a cigarette outside.

[948] And then what I always say is you just look at the practicality of that.

[949] If you're bonding over something you hate, there's then nothing to do beyond that, because you can't go like, yeah, I fucking hate Depeche Mode, me too.

[950] Well, let's not go to a Depeche Mode concert.

[951] That's step number one.

[952] Whereas if you bond over things you like, then it's like, well, now let's go to a Depeche Mode concert.

[953] Whatever it is, if you're defining yourself by things you're in opposition to, it's innately unproductive, weirdly.

[954] And let me riff off that a little bit more politically.

[955] So now you and I were outside smoking talking about how much we hate Depeche Mode, right?

[956] And we feel something.

[957] We feel like that little energy connection, right?

[958] Like, yeah, fuck those people who like that.

[959] We don't know.

[960] Now we're really afraid to say, but you know who I really like?

[961] The Bee Gees.

[962] Because now we're afraid to say what we do believe in, because now our relationship is tenuous and based on hating the same thing.

[963] So now we do nothing.

[964] The only way we can build from not going to Depeche Mode is, We hate the cure, we hate the Smiths.

[965] We hate the Smiths.

[966] And let's find some people that hate the Smiths.

[967] Yeah, OMD.

[968] Yeah, oh, right.

[969] OMG, OMD sucks.

[970] I love OMD.

[971] Me too.

[972] Do you like OMD?

[973] Orchestra, what is it?

[974] Movement's in the Dark.

[975] Orchestra, yeah, yeah.

[976] Love it.

[977] Yeah, we have some music.

[978] Psychedelic Furs.

[979] Lost my virginity to love my way.

[980] You wanted to know that, right?

[981] You wanted to know when I lost my virginity.

[982] I'll never listen to it to say.

[983] Can I just tell you?

[984] I plan this so perfect.

[985] We'll call her Denise V. I don't want to completely tell you her full identity, but I made a mix tape.

[986] My mom was out of town, in the basement downstairs, on a couch, later found out, best friend Aaron Weekly spying from around a corner.

[987] That song came on right when things took off, if you feel me. I do.

[988] I'm with you.

[989] I was done before the chorus came.

[990] To the chorus quick in that song.

[991] It does.

[992] It's like, moving.

[993] forward with all my...

[994] No, that's...

[995] Loving you is...

[996] Oh, wait, no, but that's how stop the world.

[997] Oh, that's...

[998] Oh, my God, yes.

[999] That was my mixtape from Steve.

[1000] The point is, is I was done in seconds.

[1001] I just kept going, because I was confused.

[1002] I didn't know.

[1003] It's awkward.

[1004] Like, when you should stop.

[1005] Yeah, it's awkward.

[1006] I was physically ready and I maybe wasn't emotionally prepared.

[1007] So, I just hung in for a while.

[1008] With a good soundtrack.

[1009] I mean, it could have been working.

[1010] Yeah, I just tried to enjoy the song at that point.

[1011] What on earth were we talking about before I...

[1012] Oh, yes, if you don't...

[1013] Oh, yeah, when you hate people, yeah.

[1014] Yes, if your identity is shared by things you hate, there's really nothing to build on.

[1015] No, and then it gets really dicey because now the three of us are friends, we hate the same thing, and we know that we're capable of cruelty and hatred.

[1016] So now I'm going to do whatever I need to do or say to stay with you.

[1017] And then it just becomes, it's so empty.

[1018] Well, the thing I think we should all, like everyone in here, we're all guilty of it.

[1019] And it's what I want you to point out how every single genocide has ever started.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] Every genocide has started the same way.

[1022] Dehumanization.

[1023] We dehumanize.

[1024] All genocides reported in history started with a subtle dehumanization of people, which always starts with language.

[1025] Well, in World War II, we called them jerrys and Japs and all the.

[1026] these things because if you call them that, then they weren't people.

[1027] And same with Vietnam.

[1028] And so first you have to label them something, right?

[1029] With language.

[1030] With language.

[1031] And then they're different from you.

[1032] So you're not killing a human because we actually don't want to kill a human.

[1033] That's good news.

[1034] We're adverse to killing each other.

[1035] We're biology, like our biology wires us to really, it's really hard.

[1036] Like if you're, you know, who you see within the scope of morality.

[1037] So in order to hurt people, you have to push them outside of that scope.

[1038] And we start with bad, good, evil, than dehumanization.

[1039] And so this is my, this is my rejection.

[1040] So most certainly, a lot of people who voted for Trump are xenophobes and are racist.

[1041] That certainly is the case.

[1042] Some percentage.

[1043] But my little leftist silo in L .A., they're all.

[1044] racist.

[1045] They're all racist.

[1046] Everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.

[1047] And I'm like, that's not true.

[1048] That's bullshit.

[1049] That's not.

[1050] And so it's that.

[1051] It's step one.

[1052] So now they're racist.

[1053] And once I've labeled someone a racist, I don't really give a shit if they get punched in the face.

[1054] I don't really give a shit if they get thrown in jail.

[1055] I don't care about those things.

[1056] So it's step one and me not really caring what happens to those people.

[1057] And so you had a unique experience, which is you were in the hurricane that came through Houston, and what happened in that situation?

[1058] I mean, we get it that there was wind and water.

[1059] You don't have to tell us about that.

[1060] There was a lot of wind and a lot of, like 61 inches in three days.

[1061] Yeah, and it was devastating for us.

[1062] And as a city, we just, we, you know, Houston is, Houston just kicks so much ass.

[1063] Like, Houston is just a great, we are really strong, amazing people there, and super diverse.

[1064] I mean, like, my kid went to a public elementary school in our neighborhood, 51 countries of origin, first generation.

[1065] Wow.

[1066] This is, like, they say it's one of the most diversities in the world.

[1067] And the thing about Houston that's great, I'll just plug it while we're talking about it, is while everyone's doing the wall conversation, we're just building longer and longer tables.

[1068] The thing at Houston is, if you're willing to work hard, shoot straight, be kind, there's a place for you in Houston.

[1069] Like, it's a great city.

[1070] We got super, we got divided by the election.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] The election was, we were not immune from that, just like no one was immune from that.

[1073] And during Harvey, what you saw was people being people.

[1074] Again, it was such a, I felt like it was a gift in some ways.

[1075] I've seen, it was a powerful reminder that the divisiveness that we buy into, we have to be super careful about it because someone is benefiting them from it.

[1076] Certainly the Trump administration benefits from the divisiveness.

[1077] But when it comes down to it, you saw like, you saw, first of all, the Cajun Navy showed up.

[1078] So the Cajun Navy, yeah, the Cajun Navy showed up, which are 500 fishermen and women on, in boats in like swamp things.

[1079] They've been waiting nine years for this.

[1080] Yeah.

[1081] They were.

[1082] like just sitting there in their baths finder boats.

[1083] And it's a real love affair between Louisiana and Texas because we were there during Katrina.

[1084] They took you guys took in a lot of.

[1085] We took as many as we could and still have a lot of permanent residence now.

[1086] So it was like one of those things where no one reached out and said, hey, I'm here to help you and get you out of the house in my boat.

[1087] Who did you vote for?

[1088] It was like we're just here as humans looking at humans.

[1089] That's so important, and it's a shame that it takes a life -threatening event to go.

[1090] Oh, first and foremost, we're two humans, and we owe it to each other to try to keep one another alive.

[1091] That sounds sacram, but it's really true.

[1092] It's so true.

[1093] And, yeah, here's the other thing is it's not required to have your point of view and your political preference and the way you're going to vote.

[1094] You can have all that.

[1095] You're not giving that up by refusing to make them all.

[1096] out group or making them all the enemy or making the other it's not required you can still want to reunite separated families at the border and still not have to look at them as them you know what i'm saying that that's just the me on my soapbox about that i just think again you have the houston thing my thing is my all my hobbies i'm the hillbilly it's i'm the i'm the only person out there that voted for a Democrat without question.

[1097] And I'm grateful that I'm regularly confronted with, like, oh, this guy's got a Trump flag on his doom buggy, yuck.

[1098] And then I'm like, oh, he's got a cute family.

[1099] Oh, this guy, like, worked really hard to, like, you know, bring his family out here and look, and he's pushing around the swing.

[1100] And then I start seeing all these things that, like, I do together.

[1101] And then I'll talk to him.

[1102] And then if that never comes up, then it's like, oh, right, there is a ton still.

[1103] And we have to focus on that for us to somehow work through all this stuff, right?

[1104] I mean, just screaming at each other over a wall.

[1105] Is that going to work?

[1106] No, you know, it's not going to work.

[1107] I think there's a couple things.

[1108] I mean, like the people that you're seeing in the doom buggy, that's a lot of my family.

[1109] I mean, I'm really in a fifth generation Texan.

[1110] Like, we're not like, like, these are serious, serious, like, you know, I thought, my family always thought that I didn't have in college on a ski ski.

[1111] shooting scholarship on a shooting scholarship.

[1112] You meant.

[1113] You did.

[1114] They thought I would end up there.

[1115] I was a shooter.

[1116] Like I shot Skeet like a motherfucker.

[1117] Like a motherfucker like I did.

[1118] Like yes.

[1119] Yeah, it was really good.

[1120] And so that's this, you know, how many of you grew up in families like that?

[1121] Like, yeah, hunting fish and that's, I mean, that was the jam.

[1122] But I think...

[1123] Or you have a great analogy, too.

[1124] Think about your grandparents.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] You have that analogy.

[1127] What is it?

[1128] Well, it's that all of us in this room, think about our grandparents and what percentage of our ideology matches up with theirs, right?

[1129] It's about 20 % just across the board.

[1130] And who would want to excommunicate their grandparents from their lives?

[1131] Yeah, and I don't think...

[1132] You can have these conflicting points of view and still love one another.

[1133] You can, up until the moment that your opinions and beliefs, diminish my humanity.

[1134] Exactly, yes.

[1135] Okay.

[1136] Then we got a big ass problem.

[1137] We just got to preach from Monica.

[1138] Yeah, I've been to keep, yeah.

[1139] Hit us, Monica.

[1140] Yeah, and it depends on who's, you know, who you are voting for the Democrat, who you are at the Dune's, right?

[1141] If, if...

[1142] You've been and you fucking loved it, yeah.

[1143] Don't write a check your ass can't cash, Monica.

[1144] Okay, okay.

[1145] But if I'm, let's say I was a Muslim person at the Dune's.

[1146] and I was talking to these people who voted for Trump, it's personal for them.

[1147] It's not just like we can get, you know, let's see across the aisle, it's you are actively making a choice that affects my day -to -day life.

[1148] That's it.

[1149] And in a negative way, in a painful way.

[1150] So if you're a person who isn't experiencing that every day and is just voting and it might be easy, It might be easier to be like, yeah, we're all, it's fine, we're all people and we're just people.

[1151] But if you're the recipient of the hatred, it's harder to do that.

[1152] And I think it's not a fair ask.

[1153] I don't think that people who are the target of the hatred have the responsibility to build the table and invite the conversation.

[1154] It's like, come on.

[1155] It's like, that's the part to me that I can.

[1156] do that.

[1157] Like, I can't, I could go with you the Dunes and talk to those families.

[1158] And I, you know, and I can, because I can, because I have the privilege of being white.

[1159] I have the privilege of knowing they're not going to hurt my kids.

[1160] But like, I remember during Harvey, that's when they were going to rescindaca.

[1161] Like, that's when they, remember that?

[1162] And the very first casualty in, at Harvey was a young immigrant who saved a couple of families.

[1163] And, you know, and, you know, went back for a third family and hit a wire in his boat and got electrocuted and died.

[1164] Like, and so it's like, I don't know.

[1165] I don't disagree with either of you on either of those points.

[1166] And I think there's, like, the simple fact that illegal immigrants commit less crimes than natural -born citizens and then legal immigrants also commit less crimes, like just this notion of them being critical is just patently wrong.

[1167] So that's wrong, and that's great.

[1168] And we agree on that.

[1169] My question is, the method of getting through to that person, is the method to get through to that person to go like, oh, well, maybe you're just fiscally conservative, and you made this choice because you're fiscally conservative, and maybe it could just tell you, like, what some of the other ramifications of that are.

[1170] Is that the approach, or is the approach, you're a fucking racist, you're red, let's divide.

[1171] I just, to me, it's all about how we get out and what's productive and what's not a productive.

[1172] I couldn't agree more with every one of these policy things you guys are bringing up.

[1173] It's just, I don't think the path, out of all that is in -group, out -group.

[1174] I don't think the path out of it, I don't think it is either, but I will tell you this, at this point, at this point in the administration and everything that's happened, there are some people that are so doubled down, there is no conversation to be had.

[1175] Sure.

[1176] Like, I don't, I think it's just too scary and too unsafe.

[1177] There's so much fear, yeah.

[1178] There's so much fear.

[1179] And here's the thing, you've got a leader right now, who I just finished this...

[1180] Jerry Brown?

[1181] Not our leader.

[1182] Yeah, not here.

[1183] Yeah, not here.

[1184] But we have an administration that I just had finished a seven -year study on leadership and what is the quality of brave leadership.

[1185] And what is the most dangerous kind of leadership that we can see?

[1186] In organizations, because I do work with companies and people all over the world.

[1187] And what's so interesting to me is this formula that I think completely explains what we're seeing right now, which is take a group of people in uncertainty and fear, give them someone to blame for their pain and deliver, deliver someone, deliver an enemy.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] And you can get away with anything.

[1190] Well, it's, yeah, Nazi Germany, they said.

[1191] I mean, it is, but it's like we're in so much, like, we have changed fundamentally.

[1192] I started my research six months before 9 -11, just obviously coincidentally, and I have watched fear change who we are.

[1193] It has changed who we are as a country.

[1194] But again, that's on both sides.

[1195] No, that's a cross.

[1196] That's a cross.

[1197] Yes, that's the big unifier.

[1198] It's the big unifier.

[1199] Because all the lefties in my silo are like panicked like they themselves were kicked out of the country.

[1200] Like they're living at this heightened sense of fear that is.

[1201] And again, I get it.

[1202] They're white.

[1203] They're not the ones.

[1204] With that said, they are acting like they were, like, there is a heightened sense of panic that I think is a little unrealistic.

[1205] Uh -oh.

[1206] I don't know if it's heightened.

[1207] And I don't, okay.

[1208] It's also people lifting up other people, right?

[1209] So, so these, the white people that you're talking about.

[1210] Well, no, okay.

[1211] My lefty silos got a lot of brown people.

[1212] Yeah.

[1213] A lot of gay people.

[1214] But I thought you were talking about the white people who are overly panicked, is what you were just saying.

[1215] Okay, sure.

[1216] But they're not overly panicked because you need numbers.

[1217] You need safety in numbers, and you need a, yeah, right?

[1218] I think so, I mean, I don't know.

[1219] Well, look, there's two ways to look at it.

[1220] It's a glass half fell, glass half empty.

[1221] There's a way to look at this and go, oh, my God, this system's kind of working.

[1222] There have been federal judges that said, no, you can't do that ban.

[1223] Like, we're seeing the system work in ways.

[1224] We're also seeing it being dismantled in ways.

[1225] And it's really how you want to view that.

[1226] And we're way too far down a wormhole now.

[1227] But it's also working.

[1228] The branches of government are working.

[1229] The safety valves are working.

[1230] He's being regularly shut down by federal judges.

[1231] So there's things that are encouraging as well that are happening.

[1232] But I think he's also being shut down because people are making so much noise.

[1233] I think that's right.

[1234] Okay.

[1235] Look, I'm wrong a lot.

[1236] Maybe I'm wrong on this.

[1237] Yeah.

[1238] I don't know.

[1239] I think, I'm a hopeful person.

[1240] I believe that people are inherently good.

[1241] I do.

[1242] And I think that we're going to be okay, but I don't think we're going to be okay and quiet at the same time.

[1243] Okay, so I want, before you leave, I want you to tell us some actual and practical ways to be vulnerable, because vulnerability is the path.

[1244] out of all this stuff, right?

[1245] And so what are the practical ways people can be vulnerable?

[1246] Well, I think the greatest act of vulnerability is just to be real, to be authentic, to be honest about who you are with people that you care about.

[1247] I don't believe in vulnerability for vulnerability's sake.

[1248] Like, I think, I really don't.

[1249] I believe that we share our stories and our struggles with people who've earned the right to hear them.

[1250] We share our stories with people with whom we're in relationships that can bear the weight of the story.

[1251] But I think ultimately vulnerability is, it ties up this last political piece we're talking about, stop working your shit out on other people.

[1252] Like, yeah, just, like, we're, we all have pain, right?

[1253] And I don't think I would have ever had this career had I not gone through AA.

[1254] Like, because obviously, slogans are actually true.

[1255] Annoingly, that a bunch of drunks came up with the truth of life.

[1256] Except for Keep It Simple.

[1257] I'm not there yet on Keep It Simple.

[1258] Oh, I like Keep It Simple.

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] Even the bumper sticker you like when you see Keep It Simple.

[1261] Yeah, I look right on, dude.

[1262] Like, yeah.

[1263] Two guys fighting at a stoplight on their way to a meeting.

[1264] Keep it simple on the bumper.

[1265] The one I don't like is live and let live.

[1266] Yeah, I don't need that one either.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] And then I had a therapist one time and say, Bray, you know, the saying is let go.

[1269] and let God, not let go and let Brunay.

[1270] How dare she?

[1271] That was great, right?

[1272] No, I think the answer to vulnerability is this.

[1273] We are so much better at causing pain than we are at feeling our way through our own pain.

[1274] And I think vulnerability is about saying, yeah, I'm imperfect.

[1275] I make mistakes.

[1276] It's messy.

[1277] I don't get shit done than I need to get done.

[1278] But I'm worthy of love and belonging.

[1279] and I'm going to treat myself like that and I'm going to treat the other people like that.

[1280] I think that's the bottom line.

[1281] And you know, on the pain topic, my mantra when I'm miserable and in discomfort, my mantra is, this is temporary, this is temporary, this is temporary, this is temporary, because I need to remind myself.

[1282] That's so powerful.

[1283] Because when I am in that moment of pain and anguish, I am certain that's the rest of my life.

[1284] I'm positive of it.

[1285] I will never escape this for the rest of my life, But that is so powerful.

[1286] And I just go, it's temporary, it's temporary, it's temporary.

[1287] And then I go, the other thing I think is like, I've never been on a roller coaster, like having a, like at a 10.

[1288] Like, woo, hands up, going down the first big hell and thinking like, oh shit, I bet I'm going to feel this way for the rest of my life.

[1289] Oh, fuck.

[1290] The rest of my life's going to rule.

[1291] I always know the good time's going to end in seconds.

[1292] I'll, uh, fucking love my way by psychedelic furs.

[1293] It'll be over before you know it.

[1294] Never fearful that my joy is going to last forever.

[1295] Always terrified my pain's going to last indefinitely.

[1296] So I just go, it's temporary, it's temporary.

[1297] And sometimes it's three days of saying it's temporary.

[1298] And then it is fucking temporary.

[1299] You know, it's all temporary.

[1300] If you just weather the storm, not to bring it back to the Houston hurricane.

[1301] No, I think that's so smart.

[1302] I will tell you one of my vulnerability hacks like that that I tell myself is one of the most vulnerable things that we do that I think is the key to life is setting boundaries.

[1303] Oh, yeah, you're big into boundaries.

[1304] My wife told me. Yeah, I'm big into boundaries.

[1305] She said she's going to set some boundaries with you.

[1306] That'll be so fun.

[1307] Yeah, no, I'm big into boundaries because I'm just big into like, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay.

[1308] Like at work, like, it's totally okay.

[1309] You're pissed.

[1310] It's not okay to scream or pound your fist on the, you know, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay.

[1311] So one thing that I do, because I also have that like, I need to be liked, and I don't want to disappoint anyone, not a good girl horseshit.

[1312] And so what I usually do is I've come to the conclusions after studying this, that when you do something hard, it's uncomfortable for about eight seconds.

[1313] It's about, so what I do is what I'm going to say something like, hey, Brunay, can you bring all the food for the bake sale on Tuesday?

[1314] Then I just say, choose discomfort over resentment, choose discomfort over resentment, choose discomfort over resentment, discomfort over resentment.

[1315] And I just say it three times because eight seconds is that's how long you have to ride a bull in the rodeo.

[1316] That's a long time when you're on a bowl.

[1317] Oh, when a bull, it's a long time.

[1318] Yeah.

[1319] Or waiting for something to come out of the microphone.

[1320] Or staying across from the PTO.

[1321] It's still a long time.

[1322] Yeah.

[1323] And so I just say.

[1324] Not very long on your first time, but.

[1325] Not to the psychedelic furs.

[1326] It's a short, short time.

[1327] Really quick.

[1328] So I think that's very helpful.

[1329] And it goes to your temporary thing.

[1330] Just you can either be uncomfortable for a couple seconds are resentful for like six months and be like, here are your brownies asshole.

[1331] I hope you choke on them.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] Which is not who we want to be.

[1334] No. When you're writing your narrative self at night and you tell that part of your story to yourself, you're going to be disappointed.

[1335] My one experience, my one quick experience with my lovely bride who probably left with Steve, but I bet you for two years.

[1336] We'd lay in bed together at night, post -coital, and that's not true.

[1337] It was like a once a week, but she's on her phone.

[1338] This is back when there was a BlackBerry and a lot of buttons, so the button super fast attacks are just like firing shit off.

[1339] And then I would say to her, you know, you do a lot of emailing in bed at night.

[1340] She's like, well, I got to get my stuff done.

[1341] Like I have emails that need to be answered.

[1342] And then I'll, then I would say, well, I don't think you're managing your time well, right?

[1343] So now I get into a debate about how well she's managing her time.

[1344] I say, you know what you should do is you should set aside in 90 minutes in the day to do those emails.

[1345] And now I'm like creating the system.

[1346] And she's like, you don't fucking need to tell me how I, how to manage my time first.

[1347] Secondly, I'm running my business just fine.

[1348] I don't need your expertise on this.

[1349] And then the next night I'd try another approach.

[1350] Like, well, you know, those things are really, the blue light will keep you up.

[1351] Like, you're getting a lot of blue light.

[1352] Now try that scientific approach, right?

[1353] This went on for two years.

[1354] Kristen Bell is a saint.

[1355] She's a saint.

[1356] She is a saint.

[1357] Say Kristen.

[1358] This goes on for two years, and one night, I found the courage.

[1359] I don't know where it came from.

[1360] I found the courage to say, honey, I would really like your attention.

[1361] and she goes, oh, yeah.

[1362] And I was like, she would never not give me attention.

[1363] Right.

[1364] Like, if I say, I would love your attention, she's never going to go, well, but I have an email.

[1365] That's just not her.

[1366] I didn't marry that person.

[1367] That person's a dick.

[1368] Beautiful example of being vulnerable.

[1369] Yes, it took me two years.

[1370] It's not easy.

[1371] I have one more.

[1372] I have one more.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] Equally crazy.

[1375] She has all these charities.

[1376] Oh, she's so good.

[1377] She's all these charities, and a lot of them in the beginning of us dating involved Africa.

[1378] So she would be gone to Africa, giving people water.

[1379] And I would, this is evil what I'm about to admit on this stage.

[1380] But as an anthropologist, I would say, you know, often the white man has gone down there and tried to meddle, and it's backfired and caused way more damage than it ever helped, which is true.

[1381] This is factually true.

[1382] They taught one group to separate where they wash their dishes and where they washed their clothes and they had a population explosion.

[1383] And then they all died of famine.

[1384] So I'm giving all these examples of the arrogance of white people going to Africa and making decisions that will end up killing more people and I'm doing this for years.

[1385] And by the way, I'm making pretty sound arguments.

[1386] They're not just out of thin air.

[1387] There's shit I learned in anthropology.

[1388] But for bullshit reasons, right?

[1389] Well, I didn't even know yet that it was bullshit reasons.

[1390] It's called naive realism.

[1391] I was accusing her and her charities of.

[1392] We would fight about it non -stop, and all of a sudden I had a breakthrough where we were fighting in Florida at her ex -stepdad Larry's wedding.

[1393] Oh, I love Larry, by the way.

[1394] Every time Larry takes a bite of food, 100 % of the time, he goes, mm, well, I'm not even doing his catchphrase yet.

[1395] He goes, I love food.

[1396] on a hundred percent of the bites and he means it more gratitude than any human alive Larry rules we go to the wedding we're fighting about Africa I'm telling her about genocides finally I say to her you know what I'm in love with my mom she worked a lot she built a business I had to at times be second to that because that had to build everything and pay for everything we got it we were second to that she was gone a lot and I'm worried because this work you're doing is good that it's more important than me and that I will be second to this for the rest of my life and she goes if you ever tell me I need you at home I need you at home I will not go to Africa and literally that sentence it was gone I was like you can go to Africa as much as you want and I by the way after 11 years of being together, I wish she'd go to fucking Africa more often.

[1397] It would be awesome.

[1398] But again, I could have gone on forever until I finally said, I'm scared.

[1399] I think I'm going to be second.

[1400] I'm second to work.

[1401] I'm second to Africa.

[1402] God knows what's next.

[1403] And so, yeah, vulnerability.

[1404] Brene, I thank you so much for carrying that message.

[1405] I thank you so much.

[1406] Super fun.

[1407] Thank you for inviting me. What a delight.

[1408] So fun.

[1409] If you want to hear the fact check, Please stay tuned after this musical interlude by Robert Ellis.

[1410] Just want to thank Robert Ellis.

[1411] He was so much fun.

[1412] He put the audience in the best mood.

[1413] He's such a talented musician.

[1414] Please check out Robert's stuff.

[1415] Also, just a special thanks to Lizzie Dulean, my top queen in Austin, who hooked us up with Robert Ellis.

[1416] It was so kind and came out and put on a heck of a show.

[1417] So please enjoy some Robert Ellis before the fact check.

[1418] just drive around the fairgrounds another time of tour where am I gonna go when the girl behind the counter at the coffee shop gets tired of me hanging around nothing left to say trying to get away and I've changed all the loud bulbs and had this conversation about three million times or more guess I walk around the grocery store again but this don't feel like living it's just surviving I hate going away oh I'm just trying to that you're upstairs and I'm down here watching television trying to make some sense out of the way it feels to be so close to you I feel so far away oh I just wish you go to bed without the expectation that I'd come up there and say something to help you I feel like things aren't such a mess I'll just sweep the floor and clean the desk Put up the dishes and then fold some clothes I guess Oh, just don't feel like living No, no, no It's just surviving I hate going just dry Thanks guys I think it was a surprise that I'm here To everyone including me Tax email me and asked me if I do this And I was like, it's a no -brainer It's going to be like shooting fish in a barrel It's at the Paramount It's your audience It's going to be easy So I'm just going to play a few quick songs Kind of set things up This next one is I ask permission to do this one because I want to just say before I play it, that it has some offensive language.

[1419] But it's, it's for, it's a love song, though, so it's for the most noble of causes that I swear.

[1420] This is a new song, this is like the first or second time I played it.

[1421] Please don't be offended.

[1422] Sorry, Mom.

[1423] I'm fucking crazy.

[1424] I don't know how to stop myself From acting so insane Screaming like an age You're fucking crazy You make me so mad Some days you seem so happy Some days you get so sad How the next who you're gonna be Sometimes I think you may be False touch with re - There's nothing I can do Because you are fucking crazy And I am fucking crazy about you This world is getting wilder every day He can be so hard to find another way And if it means There's nothing I can do Because you are fucking crazy I guess I am fucking crazy.

[1425] Thank you.

[1426] My mom, my mom heard that song, and she said, I have a six -week -old kid.

[1427] Thank you very much.

[1428] But she heard that song, and she said, she said, you have a child now.

[1429] What are you going to do if he starts saying those words?

[1430] I was like, I'm going to call Mensa immediately six weeks old.

[1431] If he says anything at all, he will be the smartest child ever to have lived.

[1432] All right, thank you guys for putting up with me. I'm going to play this song.

[1433] This is a song that Dax requested.

[1434] This is about growing up in the Bible Belt.

[1435] It's called Sing Along.

[1436] We've all been there.

[1437] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexam.

[1438] explicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[1439] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[1440] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[1441] Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[1442] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[1443] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[1444] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[1445] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[1446] Here she comes.

[1447] Watch our boys, she'll chew you up.

[1448] Oh, here she comes.

[1449] She's a fact -checker.

[1450] I love this.

[1451] Watch out, boy, she'll chew you up.

[1452] I don't know what voice I should pick for that song.

[1453] That was great.

[1454] Should I be imitating Daryl Hall or just doing me?

[1455] No, that was.

[1456] She's a fact checker.

[1457] Or what if I do Michael McDonald doing it?

[1458] All right, sure.

[1459] Oh, here she comes.

[1460] Watch our man, she'll chew you up.

[1461] Oh, here she comes.

[1462] She's a manita.

[1463] Well, no, it was fact checker.

[1464] Oh, fuck.

[1465] I got too distracted by trying to.

[1466] Yeah, I like the first way.

[1467] Okay, we'll keep that one.

[1468] Okay.

[1469] That was great.

[1470] Now, was that one where they provided the, you came up with it.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] You can kind of tell.

[1473] I guess it was obvious.

[1474] That's right, because it wasn't very good.

[1475] No, it was good.

[1476] It just was clear.

[1477] Yeah, I just had a man -eater written in my phone.

[1478] Someone suggested man -eater.

[1479] That was great.

[1480] I love these requests.

[1481] Oh, here she comes.

[1482] That was really good.

[1483] Watch out, boy.

[1484] She'll chew your facts It almost sounds like chew your ass Oh Oh no Watch out boy She'll chew your ass Do you think that's a warning That should be given out Like if a bro About me Not you but like if a bro's dated someone And then his bro's starts dating his ex -girl And he just gives him like a heads up Like watch out boy She'll chew your ass It's just a heads out Do you think it would be watch out I guess it depends on the person, right?

[1485] Yeah, maybe it would be like, like, um, not watch out boy.

[1486] It'd be like, uh, uh, enjoy boy, she'll chew your ass.

[1487] Yeah, something like that.

[1488] Something positive.

[1489] Yeah, something positive.

[1490] Mm -hmm.

[1491] Oh, boy.

[1492] This is not, not me. No, it's all me. I want everyone to get confused.

[1493] Whose voice is whose?

[1494] No. No, that you're not talking about me. No, she won't chew your ass.

[1495] Or maybe she will.

[1496] We don't know.

[1497] You've not declared on here whether or not you'll chew someone's ass.

[1498] I'm not going to declare.

[1499] No, you've got to leave some secrets.

[1500] Yeah, some secrets for me. To your suitors.

[1501] You're not taking a position one way or another on it, which I think is the right move.

[1502] Down the middle.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] Down the ass crack.

[1505] Okay.

[1506] Something great happened when I was listening to Brunet.

[1507] What?

[1508] Well, I love Brne.

[1509] Oh, we love Bray.

[1510] So much.

[1511] Well, first of all, let's just, let's applaud Brne.

[1512] We never met.

[1513] She agrees to come on and do.

[1514] Oh, my.

[1515] Oh my God, by the way, I'm heartbroken.

[1516] I got the best fully instrument.

[1517] I discovered the other night and I'm going to bring it and I'm going to put on a show for you.

[1518] Oh, my God.

[1519] I was so excited to bring it and I forgot it.

[1520] It beats the hell out of my beard walking through the forest.

[1521] It does.

[1522] I like it when it's like a natural thing, though.

[1523] Whatever.

[1524] We'll do it on Monday.

[1525] Yeah, we got to do it because it's so great.

[1526] Okay.

[1527] All right.

[1528] Not to build anticipation too much, but it's incredible.

[1529] I discovered it, putting the girls down, and I was just, I was on fire.

[1530] Oh, I'm excited.

[1531] Yeah, it's a really nice thing.

[1532] And we're going to have a nice romantic conversation because it's a real mood setting, this sound that it's mimicking.

[1533] Is it in a restaurant?

[1534] It could be in a restaurant.

[1535] It could be anywhere.

[1536] Should we play 20 questions to figure out what it is?

[1537] It's a meteorological event.

[1538] Rain.

[1539] I can make it sound like it's raining on the roof.

[1540] Okay.

[1541] Wouldn't it be great if we were doing the fact check and there's just a gentle pitter patter of raindrops?

[1542] That would be nice.

[1543] Well, that's what we're going to have next week.

[1544] All right.

[1545] Okay.

[1546] Brene.

[1547] Brenay Brown, who came as a stranger, didn't know either of us, came and did a live show, also high stakes, and we knew within two seconds backstage that she was going to hand me my ass if the situation called for it.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] Yeah, she...

[1550] She's a powerhouse.

[1551] She's a powerhouse.

[1552] Yeah.

[1553] She's a powerful house, you okay?

[1554] She's a, yeah.

[1555] She's a brick.

[1556] She's not a brick shit house.

[1557] She's a brick house.

[1558] Yeah, sure.

[1559] Okay, great.

[1560] Yeah.

[1561] She's built like a brick powerhouse.

[1562] She is a brick powerhouse, yeah.

[1563] But if she's listening just this episode and not others, she should know we have a long standing conversation about describing people as brick shithouses.

[1564] It's very complimentary.

[1565] Just know that can go in.

[1566] Yeah, we love it.

[1567] Also, hi, Renee, if you're listening.

[1568] Hi, Renee, we miss you.

[1569] We miss you and we would like to talk to you again.

[1570] Yeah.

[1571] And something great happened, beginning of the live show.

[1572] So she brought a bag of treats for you as a gift, which was so nice, a lot of Texas stuff.

[1573] And one of those was jerky from Buckees.

[1574] Bucky's jerky.

[1575] And we didn't know about Buckees yet.

[1576] Buckees wasn't a thing that we were excited about yet.

[1577] Right.

[1578] So when I went back and listened and heard her say that the jerky was from Buckees, freaked out.

[1579] Buckees jerky's jerky.

[1580] Yes, can you believe it?

[1581] Yeah, yeah.

[1582] And it was foreshadowing for a few days later when we got so excited about Buckees.

[1583] We sure did.

[1584] Driving.

[1585] It was serendipitous.

[1586] Yeah.

[1587] Anyway, there was some confusion about Matthew McConaughey's age.

[1588] You thought 51.

[1589] You're okay?

[1590] And he's 48.

[1591] Oh, boy.

[1592] He's a young buck.

[1593] I was three years off and in the wrong direction.

[1594] That's not what you want to put out there in the universe.

[1595] Matthew, I think, you look great and you look younger than me. He looks great.

[1596] He looks great.

[1597] And you probably felt like that because he's been around first.

[1598] He's been working for so long.

[1599] Since I was, yeah, a baby.

[1600] Yeah, yeah.

[1601] You're absolutely right.

[1602] That's why I thought that.

[1603] He's so accomplished that I elevated his age to make myself feel better.

[1604] And I went to this gala with Kristen.

[1605] Okay.

[1606] And he was there.

[1607] Okay.

[1608] And he was auctioning off some stuff for his charity, which was very nice.

[1609] And he was as charming on that stage as he is in his movies.

[1610] Yeah, he's got a lot of real -life charisma.

[1611] He really does.

[1612] A lot of it.

[1613] It's really weird you're bringing him up because three days ago, I decided I'm doing our next intro as him.

[1614] Wow.

[1615] I've been practicing for a couple days.

[1616] Oh.

[1617] And now you just brought him up.

[1618] Cool.

[1619] You've been practicing.

[1620] Great.

[1621] A little bit.

[1622] Okay.

[1623] It takes practice.

[1624] It does.

[1625] There's a few, like, key words I have.

[1626] have to say to get into it.

[1627] Great, great.

[1628] I'm excited.

[1629] We have a lot to look forward to for Mondays.

[1630] We're putting a lot of high bar, yeah.

[1631] Let's just not even have an episode.

[1632] Monday's episode is going to be the drill McHale fact check.

[1633] Ooh, as Machanahe.

[1634] The tent, there was a runner about tennis and the scoring of tennis.

[1635] Who is it?

[1636] This is the fact check of a million teases because I just tease that I'm going to do McConaughey.

[1637] And then Peter Krause had just interrupted our.

[1638] fact check.

[1639] He did.

[1640] He knocked on the attic door, which is so fun because it's like, that's what brothers would do.

[1641] Yeah, totally.

[1642] They'd ruin each other's fact check.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] Well, yeah, he just stopped by for a 10 -minute chat, but we had to kick him out to get back to work.

[1645] We did.

[1646] But it's a tease because why did he come in and ruin our fact check, but he won't come in and get interviewed.

[1647] We're working on it guys.

[1648] We're working on it guys.

[1649] We're working on it.

[1650] He's open to the idea.

[1651] It's just scheduling him.

[1652] It's very difficult.

[1653] He's on a very ten.

[1654] He's a very, A taxing show.

[1655] Busy person, yeah.

[1656] Busy man with a big heart.

[1657] Do you think he's, well, he's not here.

[1658] Am I allowed to ask that?

[1659] What?

[1660] If he's attracted?

[1661] Yeah.

[1662] Yeah, he is.

[1663] I know, but see, it's hard for me to tell because I do, I really think that, but that's also my parenthood love.

[1664] It gets confusing.

[1665] Yeah, I don't know what's what.

[1666] But Adam Braverman is the type of character you generally like on a show.

[1667] I like Saracen.

[1668] You like the nice guys.

[1669] The good boys.

[1670] So he was your heartthrob on Parenthood, way above Crosby.

[1671] No. Maybe not way above, just a lot above.

[1672] No, I wasn't.

[1673] You liked Joel.

[1674] I did like Joel.

[1675] Yeah.

[1676] I did.

[1677] I did like Joel.

[1678] Yeah.

[1679] I liked all of you guys.

[1680] Except who did I not like?

[1681] Let me think at it.

[1682] Oh, hot gossip.

[1683] Let me think.

[1684] Hot gossip.

[1685] I don't think there's been a guy on that I haven't liked on Parenthood.

[1686] Oh, cool, yeah, because you love Mr. Sear.

[1687] Love.

[1688] Okay.

[1689] Oh, boy.

[1690] Tennis scoring.

[1691] Oh, right.

[1692] Okay.

[1693] Tennis scoring.

[1694] Tennis scoring.

[1695] So each tennis match is made up of two to three sets.

[1696] Okay?

[1697] To win a set, you must win at least six games.

[1698] The games are scored starting at love or zero and go up to 40, but that's actually just four points.

[1699] From love, the first point is 15, then 30, then 40, then 40, then game point which wins the game what a stupid scoring system why would the increments be 15 be and then and then 10 it goes love 15 30 30 oh and then 40 oh my god you're right 15 15 10 and then within the 10 then there's two because you can go add in add out add in add out so then it becomes 20 it's so stupid the english had to have come up with it just like our stupid stupid foot, inches, miles, metric system, Fahrenheit, all of it, none of it based on that.

[1700] That's interesting.

[1701] I never really, I never really thought about it, but that is stupid.

[1702] It's preposterous.

[1703] No offense to tennis lovers.

[1704] I love the game.

[1705] It's great.

[1706] They didn't invent it.

[1707] The English didn't it?

[1708] No, the players.

[1709] Oh, right.

[1710] So they should be offended.

[1711] True, true, true.

[1712] Yeah.

[1713] Okay, so the Romanian study, the sad Romanian study about the orphanage, you can find it on NPR.

[1714] It's called Orphans' Lonely Beginnings Reveal How Parents Shape a Child's Brain.

[1715] Ooh.

[1716] And I read it and it was...

[1717] It's too heavy, right, to even talk about it?

[1718] No, we're going to talk about it.

[1719] Okay.

[1720] It's not controversial.

[1721] And then Kristen yelled out from the audience, Romania.

[1722] She did.

[1723] So if you heard a little voice in the audience, that was her.

[1724] Yeah.

[1725] Okay, first of all, also, side note, you know I used to be obsessed with Romania.

[1726] No. Why?

[1727] Because all the good gymnasts were from there.

[1728] Oh, right.

[1729] So I, like, was begging my parents to go on vacation there when I was young.

[1730] And they were like, hon, you don't understand.

[1731] They were like, it's a third world.

[1732] We're not going.

[1733] Right.

[1734] I was mad at them.

[1735] They never gave me what I wanted.

[1736] A lot of movies are shot in Romania, weirdly.

[1737] Yeah.

[1738] Like Kristen has done a film in Romania.

[1739] And I think it's much different than when you were a kid.

[1740] It is.

[1741] It's gotten better.

[1742] It's a beautiful place.

[1743] Everyone should go on vacation there.

[1744] Now it's a good place to vacation.

[1745] Yeah.

[1746] I wonder if we should do a Romanian tourism commercial.

[1747] I think we're doing one right now.

[1748] It would...

[1749] A pro bono, Romania.

[1750] It would conflict with our other tourism.

[1751] Well, do you think states are competing with countries?

[1752] Probably.

[1753] It's probably cheaper to go to...

[1754] There's another tease.

[1755] Guys, we're going to be in bed with New Mexico, which is exciting.

[1756] No, I'm talking about our commercial.

[1757] We have to edit out probably because I don't think we can say it yet.

[1758] The L .A. tourism commercials.

[1759] be shocked.

[1760] Oh, right.

[1761] And then also the podcast is being sponsored by the New Mexican Board of Tourism.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] It's a lot.

[1764] Okay.

[1765] The Romanian study.

[1766] You said if it was this thing where if babies weren't touched, they died.

[1767] That could be a different article that I did not find.

[1768] But this is about parenting and affection and even just attention because obviously the kids in these orphanages were not getting that.

[1769] So then they did all these studies on them, and they had a lot of developmental and brain issues, and they even did scans.

[1770] And there was like the gray matter versus white matter was all off what it should be.

[1771] And their brains were physically smaller.

[1772] Ooh.

[1773] Yeah.

[1774] And so the scientists realized the cause wasn't anything as simple as malnutrition.

[1775] It was a different kind of deprivation.

[1776] The lack of a parent or someone who acted like a parent.

[1777] Now what happens is that you're staring at a problem.

[1778] white ceiling and no one's talking to you and no one's soothing you when you get upset.

[1779] So areas of the brain involved in vision and language and emotion don't get wired correctly.

[1780] And then this professor of psychology at UCLA says all the research unneglected children reminds her of something that should be obvious.

[1781] Parents are playing a really big role in shaping children's brain development.

[1782] And parenting, she says, is a bit like oxygen.

[1783] It's easy to take for granted until you see someone who isn't getting enough.

[1784] Yeah, I knew that would bum me out.

[1785] I know.

[1786] It's such a bummer.

[1787] Let's see if we can pull ourselves out of that.

[1788] Well, people also need to know.

[1789] I know.

[1790] We got to tell the truth.

[1791] Yeah, it's sad.

[1792] And we got to get some of the sadder info out there.

[1793] And it's good parents, touch your kids and be affectionate with them.

[1794] Don't let them stare at a white ceiling.

[1795] Other kids that.

[1796] Yeah.

[1797] Oh.

[1798] All right.

[1799] Now we're going to pull that yoke back and we're going to gain elevation.

[1800] Okay.

[1801] Now, you said that mainly the people, you interview are people that have achieved the American dream, which is that they're famous and that they're rich.

[1802] And so I just wanted to, the American dream is the national ethos, is the ideal that every U .S. citizen should have an equal opportunity to achieve success and prosperity through hard work, determination, and initiative.

[1803] So I think you're right in some ways, but I don't think being famous is a part of the American dream.

[1804] Well, I think it's evolved.

[1805] Sure, that's an old thing.

[1806] I think in the 50s it was like the American dream was you own a home, you own a vehicle.

[1807] Yeah, you have all the American ideals.

[1808] Yeah.

[1809] And now I think you got also be famous.

[1810] No, I don't think that at all.

[1811] I think that's a, I don't.

[1812] I mean like on social media, you need like a million followers.

[1813] That is not the American dream.

[1814] I agree.

[1815] It shouldn't be, but I feel like now kids think, Success is getting money and getting some fame.

[1816] I think they do, which is why I wanted to clarify this, that we don't.

[1817] Yeah, we don't.

[1818] We don't think that.

[1819] That fame has nothing to do with whether you're successful or not.

[1820] Yeah, if you don't believe two famous people telling you that.

[1821] I am not famous.

[1822] How dare you?

[1823] You got recognized in Denver last weekend.

[1824] From this show.

[1825] That's famous.

[1826] No. When you're out with your friends and a stranger recognized, You know, that's famous.

[1827] Sorry to be the one to tell you this, Monica.

[1828] Yeah, famous.

[1829] Well, that's pretty good.

[1830] That sounds like, you base.

[1831] It did.

[1832] It sounded exactly like that.

[1833] You famous.

[1834] That should be a new burn.

[1835] Yeah, it would be great if it was a burn.

[1836] We should do that.

[1837] Yeah, famous.

[1838] To even out the scale a little bit.

[1839] I would like to do that.

[1840] Next time I see someone like, if I ever see Matt Damon, I'm going to go, yeah, famous.

[1841] Don't do it.

[1842] He doesn't deserve an image.

[1843] Who do you want me to do it to?

[1844] Hmm, who deserves a big insult?

[1845] Well, no one deserves an insult, but let's just say I saw...

[1846] Yeah.

[1847] You got to go big.

[1848] Yeah.

[1849] You got to go real big so no one feels bad.

[1850] I guess you can use Matt Dayton.

[1851] Will Smith?

[1852] Sure.

[1853] I like him, though.

[1854] You're famous.

[1855] Me too.

[1856] I like him a lot, Will Smith.

[1857] I watch his Instagram videos and he's...

[1858] I feel like he's a shoe in for this podcast.

[1859] Oh, I'd love to have him.

[1860] I feel like he's on the same mission we're on.

[1861] Yeah, he has the American Dream.

[1862] And famous.

[1863] That's right.

[1864] You're famous.

[1865] Okay.

[1866] So I think you were talking about, we were talking about this American Dream stuff.

[1867] And you said Mark Marin is the only one that's been on that has said that money and fame has helped a self -esteem.

[1868] Which I just want to be careful that we're not painting him as like a vapid person.

[1869] Because I don't think that's what he was saying.

[1870] I think he was saying like it's eased a lot of his anxiety.

[1871] Yeah, and I'm not saying it negatively.

[1872] I just, it was, he's the only person.

[1873] Right.

[1874] And you can just hear his own words on our podcast.

[1875] Yeah, you totally can.

[1876] Yeah, I wasn't saying anything disparaging.

[1877] But I just want to be clear.

[1878] Okay, so we talk a little bit about Michael Pollan on the last fact check on Dr. Drew's fact check.

[1879] So he comes up again on this, so people can listen to that fact check if they want some info on Michael Paulin and psilocybin and psychedelics.

[1880] Okay.

[1881] Oh, one thing I wanted to clarify, you talk about being vulnerable and having Kristen put her phone down and stuff.

[1882] So at one point you did a mime until you don't know through listening what happened, but you said, honey, I need your attention.

[1883] And then she said, okay.

[1884] And then you did a mime of putting the phone down.

[1885] Oh, mm -hmm.

[1886] So people need to know that that's what she did.

[1887] Physically transpired.

[1888] Yes.

[1889] That she listened and she put the phone down.

[1890] Well, and then I think I also mined that she put it in the microwave, set it to two minutes, hit start.

[1891] The phone blew up, all with hand signals.

[1892] Right, right, right.

[1893] And you bought a new house.

[1894] Because it did catch on fire as a result of that.

[1895] Well, that's it.

[1896] I have one fact to add.

[1897] Okay.

[1898] We were at a 10.

[1899] We were at a 10 that night in Austin, Texas.

[1900] It was so fun.

[1901] We loved it so much.

[1902] Even though I had food poisoning, we still loved it.

[1903] You also something that was a visual experience, not an auditory experience, is that you pooped your pants twice on stage.

[1904] No, that is not a fact.

[1905] And then you stood up really abruptly, and then you put your hands behind your butt.

[1906] And we thought, oh, she's getting her wallowed out really quick for something.

[1907] Well, there's no bills do.

[1908] Why is she getting her?

[1909] Uh -oh.

[1910] And then you waddled off stage.

[1911] And then you came back and you were wearing different pants.

[1912] Yeah.

[1913] And that happened twice.

[1914] change.

[1915] Yes.

[1916] Most people don't know that you are in three different kinds of slacks.

[1917] You're such a liar.

[1918] That didn't happen, but could have.

[1919] Could have.

[1920] It could have.

[1921] It could have.

[1922] It could have.

[1923] Didn't happen, but should have and could have.

[1924] It was great.

[1925] We love it.

[1926] We love Austin, Texas.

[1927] We love Austin.

[1928] We love Brene.

[1929] We do.

[1930] Thanks for everyone that gave us that night.

[1931] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1932] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert Early and and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[1933] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.

[1934] What's up, guys?

[1935] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[1936] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[1937] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[1938] And I don't mean just friends.

[1939] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes.

[1940] on.

[1941] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[1942] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.