278 - MFM Guest Host Picks #1: Steven Ray Morris

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] Hey everyone, it's Stephen, the audio engineer and editor of my favorite murder.

[3] I am so excited and thrilled to kick off exactly right guest host picks.

[4] Just for a little context, throughout the months of June and July, you're going to hear from exactly right host and family members who are longtime listeners of my favorite murder, and they're going to pick their favorite story from Karen and their favorite story from Georgia.

[5] And this week, I'm going first.

[6] Woohoo.

[7] It's unbelievable.

[8] I celebrated my fifth year anniversary working on the show.

[9] My first recordings were episode 17 and miniso 2 back in May of 2016.

[10] And it has been wild to see how much we've grown over the years to all the people and the whole network and everything, it's just, it's honestly just breathtaking almost, or it's just amazing to see how far we've come.

[11] And yeah, I'm excited to share my favorite murder stories by Karen and Georgia.

[12] All right, to kick things off, we're going to take it all the way back to 2016, episode 32, just the 32 of us.

[13] It's Georgia's telling of the life and murder of Selena.

[14] And this is not only my favorite murder, but it was a very special episode for me because Karen and Georgia were truly welcoming me into the show and into the family.

[15] And yeah, it was just a, it was just really good to re -listen to this.

[16] And now enjoyed Georgia's telling of the life and murder of Selena.

[17] All right.

[18] My favorite murder this week is Selena Quintinia Perez.

[19] No. And the reason I'm doing it is that it is audio engineer Stevie Ray Moore.

[20] So the podcast's favorite murder.

[21] I yeah no I you've been sending me shit yeah I was like sending me text and I was like oh my god I'm watching and then Aaron Brockovich did like a true crime it's crazy that I watched it I watched it well I grew up listening to Selena because I'm half my yeah I'm half Mexican and so that music was always playing and I remember like even listening to the music just feeling really sad for was you were you little when she died so you didn't know yet I mean I knew it affected because I would still go over to my family's houses and stuff and like she was huge she was like Madonna times 20.

[22] Well, I'll tell you all about it.

[23] Oh, oh.

[24] Did I see even, Kintanilla?

[25] Oh, I don't.

[26] I mean, I'm not Mexican, but I don't know how to speak Spanish.

[27] Okay, I wrote it down like I was very...

[28] She didn't know to speak Spanish either.

[29] I know.

[30] I know.

[31] All right.

[32] All right.

[33] All right.

[34] All right.

[35] Oh, Karen, your doorbell phone is ringing.

[36] Selina Kintania Perez was born on April 16, 1971 in Lake Jackson, Texas, and was called the Mexican -American Madonna.

[37] Oh, I must have known that.

[38] I've watched the movie with J -Lo.

[39] I haven't seen it.

[40] Wonderful.

[41] Gosh, she's beautiful.

[42] They were both beautiful.

[43] And she was poised to become a crossover success when her death turned her into a legend.

[44] Selina's father discovered Selena's quote, perfect timing and pitch and helped his kids form a band.

[45] And she was like nine years old when they started performing.

[46] Wow.

[47] The band, once her parents lost their family restaurant, the band became the family's main source of income, and they were in poverty, and this career, Selena's career, just took them out of poverty because they were evicted from their home during the Texas oil bust of 1992, and they moved to Corpus Christi, Texas, which sounds very hot, doesn't it?

[48] Yeah, I think it's super southern in Texas, like down in the Gulf, maybe.

[49] Right.

[50] That's a total guess.

[51] I know.

[52] I was like, right.

[53] Do I want to?

[54] Well, my cousin, Cheryl, lived in Corpus Christi when I was, like, in junior high, but But why do I ever say anything?

[55] Is that a big military town?

[56] I think it is.

[57] Yes, in fact, it has 25.

[58] I have no fucking clue.

[59] Let's just talk about Corpus Christi for the rest of this.

[60] So then the family band began recording music professionally.

[61] And in 1984, when Selena was, I think, 13, the band released its first LP, Selina Los Dinos.

[62] Fuck, I hope you don't get.

[63] That's Selena and Fred Flintstone's dog.

[64] Dinosaur.

[65] Hate mail can be sent.

[66] to Karen Kilgarov.

[67] I'm just translating.

[68] Karen Karegoyov's apartment or house, the address is.

[69] So, yes, Stephen, you are correct.

[70] Selina was a third generation Texan of a Mexican descent, so she didn't grow up speaking Spanish, so she didn't know any.

[71] But she learned all her songs phonetically.

[72] And when her popularity grew, she had to learn it, and she did it very quickly.

[73] Just like Roxette.

[74] Like what?

[75] The band Rockset.

[76] What were they German?

[77] Yeah, or Swedish or something.

[78] Oh, they had to learn it.

[79] English?

[80] Well, no, they just sang phonetically.

[81] They didn't know what they were saying.

[82] That's funny.

[83] Must have been love, but it's all in a...

[84] That she had no clue without songs.

[85] Wow.

[86] But it's so powerful.

[87] Mm -hmm.

[88] But it sounds so powerful.

[89] The ignorance makes it powerful.

[90] That's what it is.

[91] Like, because that's what love does to you.

[92] Makes you stupid idiot.

[93] That's right.

[94] Okay.

[95] Groom popularity in the year 1987.

[96] She won the Tanejo.

[97] Oh, God.

[98] Tihano?

[99] Tihano.

[100] Music Award.

[101] I like, I was watching videos to get this correctly, and I'm just screwing it all up.

[102] Tihano Music Award for female vocalist of the year.

[103] And then she landed her first major record deal with Capital Latin in 1989.

[104] So she performed several times at the Houston Astrodome to sold out crowds of more than 60 ,000 people.

[105] And after her death time described her as the embodiment of young, smart, hip Mexican -American youth from a tight -knit family and a down -to -earth personality.

[106] A Madonna without the controversy.

[107] Essentially, she was a huge Mexican -American star in her community and was poised to become a mainstream obsess.

[108] And that community was obsessed with her and proud of her and felt like, you know, she was one of their own.

[109] And she was a big fucking deal.

[110] And she seemed like a very sweet person.

[111] Everyone in her band was her family, except the guy, the guitarist they hired who she ended up marrying.

[112] Like, they were, they seemed like good people.

[113] It's like a Jackson 5 situation.

[114] Totally.

[115] Like super talented young kid.

[116] Yeah, but not creepy.

[117] And her dad was the manager.

[118] So they were very tightness.

[119] More like a Partridge family.

[120] There we go.

[121] But actually or like a Manson family.

[122] Fuck.

[123] Cut that out.

[124] Don't cut that out.

[125] I'm not sorry.

[126] All right.

[127] Where am I?

[128] Cut to mid -191.

[129] Yolanda Sal DeVar.

[130] She was so you see all these photos of her and videos of her when she got arrested she was 35 years old what that's quote unquote my age okay so 91 yolanda salivar was around 30 and she was an in -home nurse for patients with terminal cancer and just a fan of tihano music just a fucking random woman she had a history of stealing money from her employers as well as trying to become intertwined with the lives of other performers and she attended one of Selena's concerts and became a fucking psychotic fan.

[131] With the intent of starting Selena's fan club, she started obsessively calling Selena's father, leaving almost 15 messages until he gave her permission in June of 1991 to be the president of the fan club, which sounds like, okay, you know what?

[132] Take this run with it to your thing, right?

[133] Right, because you're harassing us.

[134] Yeah.

[135] So, I mean, that's, it's the thing that they didn't know about.

[136] then that people know nowadays, which is like, don't engage.

[137] Right.

[138] 15 calls to anybody at any time is too many.

[139] I don't care if, like, you have a flat tire and you're calling triple -A.

[140] It's too many calls.

[141] Well, she's being consistent and she wants to run this thing and make us more money.

[142] And it's a thing that we haven't started and maybe it'll help her with her.

[143] Like, this is what I'm thinking was there.

[144] You know what I mean?

[145] I'm just saying that's three calls.

[146] Totally.

[147] In a day?

[148] Totally.

[149] Totally.

[150] Also, like, you don't need to have contact with her after that.

[151] Okay.

[152] So as president of the fam club, she was responsible.

[153] for membership benefits, collecting money and promoting Selena, all that kind of thing.

[154] And she actually didn't meet Selena until December 91, but they became close friends and Yolanda became a trusted, trusted by her whole family.

[155] In 94, she became Selena's assistant and quit her job as a nurse.

[156] Oh, I didn't know that.

[157] Yeah.

[158] I did not know that.

[159] I thought she was just the fan club.

[160] No. She became her assistant.

[161] She quit her job as a nurse, even though she was making more money as a nurse than she was doing this.

[162] She was just so obsessed and had posters all over her house and people come over she would just make them watch Selena videos talked about nothing else and was just like kind of crazy about Selena.

[163] Wow.

[164] Yeah.

[165] I was kind of that way about kids in the hall for a little while but it was a dark period of my life.

[166] Yeah, I had flunked out to college and I was just weirdly obsessed.

[167] It was when they were running them on Comedy Central and I just, it was the only thing that made me happy.

[168] Oh.

[169] that laugh was the creepiest that was I've never heard that laugh before I just realized I mean every we all have the potential everybody likes a thing sure like crazy and wants them like has this feeling of like ownership and like yeah and like no one understands it the way I understand it it's almost made for me kind of a thing yes but have you met them and told of that see my thing is that and maybe it's just from working in tv I really don't like celebrities like there's nothing more disappointing and I think most people know it these days from reality TV and stuff.

[170] Celebrities are very disappointing in real life.

[171] Except for us.

[172] I'm just kidding.

[173] I'm not calling us.

[174] Yeah, no, they're just, I mean, the most they'll be is slightly pleasant.

[175] Yeah.

[176] For the most part, you will have regretted trying to be like, hey, can I get a picture?

[177] I'm a big fan or whatever.

[178] You're not going to get the finger.

[179] And it's some obscure thing.

[180] And they're like, okay.

[181] They don't care.

[182] It's super weird.

[183] It's like, you know, it ruins it almost.

[184] So, yeah.

[185] good luck everybody good luck in life with your fucking cute little fantasies well then so in 94 selina starts opening fashion boutiques she has two of them opening up it's called selina etc um i didn't know that yeah i didn't either because she has this crazy style it's very 90s and very like on point like you know almost madonna e but a little more hip.

[186] It's cute.

[187] It's those huge.

[188] Well, from what I remember in the movie, there's like a lot of ruffles and a lot of like, you know, shimmery, velvety pants and stuff like that.

[189] It's whole hoop earrings and red lipstick and all, yeah, it's pretty fucking sweet.

[190] So, so she, she's opening these clothing, these fashion stores and asks Sal DeVar to become the manager of the boutiques.

[191] So Sal DeVar, because of doing this, is authorized to write and cash checks, had to, access to the bank accounts associated with the fan club and the boutiques, and Selena gave her an American Express card for the purpose of conducting company business.

[192] So she put her stocker, she made her stocker the CEO of the company.

[193] Doesn't know that she's the stalker, though.

[194] Oh, right.

[195] Oh, yeah.

[196] Selina has no idea that she's the stalker.

[197] She just thinks she's a good friend of hers.

[198] That's like willing to do all this hard work.

[199] Yeah, that's like, you know, Selena is in this bubble of becoming famous and touring and all these things and this person is becoming a trusted confidant and is a huge fan and clearly as an intelligent woman if she's a nurse and all that other yeah totally okay Yeah.

[200] And everyone said she was very manipulative and good at, you know, being manipulative.

[201] Yeah.

[202] 15 calls.

[203] That's all I have to say.

[204] Yeah.

[205] 15 calls.

[206] It worked somehow.

[207] So within a year, Sal Devar had mismanaged the boutiques and they were failing.

[208] And then upon investigation, the family finds out that Sal Devar had embezzled more than, I saw $60 ,000, but I also saw $100 ,000.

[209] Wow.

[210] And forged checks from both the fan club and the boutiques, but Selena refused to believe it.

[211] She was like, no way, that's my friend.

[212] Like even her father, who was a manager and her husband and brother were like, dude, they were like, dude.

[213] Probably not like that.

[214] But eventually Selena kind of sees some shit going on and believes it.

[215] And the family fires her, tells her not to come near Selena.

[216] But Selena still wanted to become friends, stay friends.

[217] She was like, you don't work for me anymore, but let's stay friends.

[218] So at this time, Saldivar purchases a snub -nosed 38 -caliber revolver.

[219] And here's what I think is the fucked -up thing, is 38 -caliber hollow point bullets?

[220] Then the bullets were designed to cause more extensive injuries than normal bullets.

[221] Oh, no. Which, like, throws out later we'll talk about it.

[222] So on March 31st in 1995, she convinces Selena to meet her alone in a day's -in motel room, promising to restore to return financial documents that she had stolen and telling selina that she had to come alone and that she had that yolanda had been raped and needed someone to talk to oh no and this she has to make up this lie because three other times in the past like couple weeks yolanda had tried to get her alone and it had been foiled every time and her husband had come or they had met in a parking lot or something like that so so yolanda was trying to get her alone Yeah.

[223] So in the hotel room, they kind of fight over the documents.

[224] And as they're doing that, the gun comes out.

[225] And Selena turns to run and out the door and Sal DeVar shoots her in the back as she's running out, severing an artery leading from her heart.

[226] And it came out the front of her chest on the other side.

[227] So it's kind of like a shoulder shot.

[228] And Selena's running towards the motel lobby as she's bleeding and Saldivar comes there was a witness said that she chased after her pointing the gun at her and calling her a bitch Selena around 130 yards to the motel's lobby and collapsed on the floor and meanwhile Yolanda's now trying to escape in her car and it was theorized that she's heading to the recording studio where the rest of Selena's family is to kill them too.

[229] That's what they thought but a police officer who was around the corner responded stopped her and instead of getting out of the car she pulls the car into a parking space and gets kind of blocked in in this parking spot so she's in her car in a parking spot with a gun won't come out in the meantime the motel staff is trying to help selina an ambulance comes in less than two minutes but selina's pronounced dead at 105 from loss of blood and cardiac arrest her last words were this fucking makes me want to cry.

[230] Her last words, Yolanda Saldivar, room 158.

[231] Those were her last words, like, not tell my family.

[232] I love them.

[233] She was just trying to make sure they knew who did it.

[234] Yeah, which makes me so sad.

[235] It's just like, the last words out of your mouth are about your killer's name.

[236] Well, yeah.

[237] I mean, I know, like, I know, like, you should get them out, but then I just wish it could then be like something sweeter.

[238] She was only 23 years old.

[239] Oh, no. Oh, no. Baby.

[240] Well, an autopsy's performed, and this is what I thought when I heard about her running after getting shot.

[241] She died of heart failure.

[242] Wait, no. We realized Selena's heart, fueled by adrenaline, and I think from running, pumped all the blood out of her circulatory system.

[243] So I feel like if she hadn't run, she either might have gotten shot again by Yolanda, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, or the blood might not have.

[244] It's those hollow point bullets.

[245] Yeah.

[246] I mean, I don't think you can get shot and it comes out the other side and you can survive that, right?

[247] No, because isn't that.

[248] part of it is like they explode inside you and so when they come out they just instead of a bullet hole size coming out it like rips out I mean those things are evil yeah well that's the thing is so event so Sal Devar's trying to say I was trying to say that it was an accident that she was going to kill herself but it's like well why did you buy those bullets then yeah like you clearly had a motive so meanwhile there's a nine hour standoff with Yolanda in which she is in her car with the gun to her head hysterically on the phone with the hostage or with the negotiator trying to say that she didn't mean to kill her she was an accident she was trying to kill herself um and all these other excuses but ultimately let's see she gave herself in and she got arrested she's tried for first degree murder and claimed that the gun quote accidentally went off and all these other excuses but ultimately it didn't work and the jurors deliberated for less than three hours.

[249] And on October 23rd, 1995, they found Saldivar guilty.

[250] She's sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 30 years, which is going to be March 2025.

[251] But everyone's like, she is so incredibly hated in Texas.

[252] She will be murdered.

[253] And she has to be in solitary confinement because of that.

[254] Because the rest of the...

[255] Everybody wants to kill her in jail.

[256] Yeah.

[257] Everyone in jail, who was huge Selena fans her whole life, wants to fucking murder.

[258] her.

[259] Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah.

[260] Yeah.

[261] So she's, she spends every day, 23 hours a day alone in a nine by six foot south.

[262] Let's see.

[263] So the case has been described as the most important trial for the Latino population and it was compared to the O .J. Simpson murder trial.

[264] It was one of the most publicly followed trials in the history of Texas.

[265] Wow.

[266] Her posthumous 1995 crossover album, Dreaming of You, debuted at number one on the billboard charts and became triple, platinum.

[267] That just gave me chills.

[268] I know.

[269] She was the first Hispanic artist to have a predominantly Spanish language album debut and peak at number one.

[270] That's so fucking cool.

[271] I know.

[272] I mean, terribly sad, but also, because I remember that being in the movie where it's like the, it's a tragedy anyway.

[273] Yeah.

[274] But this was someone who was poised on the verge of crossing over at a time before that was like before J -Lo, before any of those things were happening.

[275] Well, we remember like in the late you and I and people were, I don't remember in the late 90s, like this huge this huge Latin pop explosion.

[276] That was like the first time it became mainstream.

[277] So Selena's doing this in the early 90s.

[278] Yeah.

[279] So she's for Ricky Martin.

[280] Right.

[281] Before like any of that where it was kind of like the sexy you know, Shikira, any of that stuff.

[282] Yeah.

[283] That wasn't on American pop radio yeah like that was not on there at all so she was kind of a trailblazer and seemed like a good person and this fan like I didn't I didn't know I was pictured it differently and it's just like so fucking tragic well it's also fascinating that thing of like when you can it's like when you were saying you know she's just this random person but you do trace those things of like a person who embezzles, a person who, like, those kind of smaller crimes, that's how every story goes like this, where it's like they always have a background where they're trying to get anything they want at any price.

[284] And they have like gray area of morals too.

[285] Yeah.

[286] Like, I don't, like, yeah, someone, if I knew a friend embezzled money, I would not trust that person.

[287] No, you're not allowed to steal money from other people.

[288] It's not your money.

[289] No. No. No. No. You don't get to have, you have to abide by certain rules in life and not screw other people over.

[290] And you don't want to be that person.

[291] Like, I remember there was a cafe I was working at when I was a teen.

[292] And I had it, in my mind, I decided that I could take a $20 bill when I was closing at night so I could buy beer.

[293] Because they only paid me minimum wage.

[294] I had this whole rationalization.

[295] Totally.

[296] And I did it two times, was racked with guilt about it.

[297] And then the manager told me, did I tell you this?

[298] manager who was also my friend like someone I hung out with he goes I don't I something's going on we're always short I think it might be the janitor and then I was like oh my because that's what happened you steal somebody else could go down for it or like I mean the idea that he even would suspect this person who has nothing to do with it then I thought maybe he told me that because he knew it was me because it was always me he did or was me the two times and that was just a manipulation which God bless you genius move but also like and then I like the next week I was talking to my dad on the phone and we were talking about something else and then he goes Karen there's some people out there that just can't keep their hands out of the till and then I almost threw up because I was like I almost wanted to go that's me my dad is my my sweet dad is talking about bad people and I'm the bad you're one you don't want to be the bad person no you don't you don't need whatever the thing is you think you need you don't and get your own get your own get your own you can yeah Keep your hands out of the kitty.

[299] That's super weird that I talked about that picture.

[300] It's so weird.

[301] Sorry, I didn't know.

[302] No, I don't care.

[303] It's super, like we've never talked about her before.

[304] No, not at all.

[305] That is super weird.

[306] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[307] Absolutely.

[308] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[309] Exactly.

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[325] Goodbye.

[326] What a tragic story.

[327] What a beautiful story.

[328] What a beautiful person.

[329] And Georgia did a damn great job telling it.

[330] And now we're taking it back to 2018 with Karen's story from episode 133 made of crystals.

[331] It's the Lady of the Dunes.

[332] And I think for me, this is my favorite murder of Cairns because it combines all the things I love about Karen.

[333] It's a good mystery.

[334] It's a cold, you know, wind -swept beach.

[335] There's movies, Hollywood involved, Stephen King.

[336] I won't spoil anything.

[337] You're going to love it.

[338] Enjoy the Lady of the Dunes.

[339] Okay.

[340] Okay.

[341] So we will, we will downshift slightly here.

[342] Thank you, Jesus.

[343] Yeah.

[344] This one is older, less intense, and has some interesting layers to it.

[345] Pre -1990?

[346] Yes.

[347] Okay.

[348] But I liked it because lately I haven't.

[349] There have been times, obviously, all my life, where I will sit there and watch, like, if it's like, real detective, I just watch every single episode.

[350] And then sometimes I'll make notes and then later go back and be like, oh, that's a good case.

[351] Yeah.

[352] But lately I haven't.

[353] I think it's just, I think it's the heat.

[354] I think it's like cultural political stuff that's happening where I just want less of everything.

[355] And so when I go to do those things, the things that used to relieve my anxiety, they cause more.

[356] So now I've been watching things where it's like slow and easy and low key and like far away.

[357] So like the Japanese TV show.

[358] that we watched last night together let's talk about it fucking hooray okay you'll hear Georgia busted out a show last night I had no idea you didn't know let's we'll talk about it okay so anyway I love that people constantly suggest cases to us like have you covered this why haven't you covered this and it's funny because I you know there's too many questions to answer on Twitter but sometimes the answer is we did in a live show you just haven't heard it yet or it hasn't been posted yet or we can't post it for whatever reason or, like, for example, I read the research of Danny Rawling that Stephen put together for me when we went to Florida, but when you're doing a live show and you have consist, you have a 30 -minute story of people going, it's like, it's like not as fun for us.

[359] And that's in the not even just a live show, but in the actual recording, too.

[360] Like, it's really hard to do stories like what I just did or like the eyeball killer or like any kind of fucking child murder.

[361] I'm like, why don't you do this one?

[362] It's like, because we don't want to fucking talk about.

[363] it.

[364] Yeah.

[365] And there's no way to do it.

[366] Like, that was the cleanest I could have done it without talking about his fucking past and getting really descriptive about the mutilation.

[367] Yeah, we still have to do it so that we walk away here and not bummed out.

[368] Yeah.

[369] You know, as much as anybody else.

[370] So, which is fine.

[371] It's like, it's a version of how to talk about true.

[372] Which is why we love when people, be like, have you done this one?

[373] I have so many screen grabbed and saved that people having suggested things like, I've never fucking heard of that one before.

[374] Same.

[375] And I am always looking for I just like the weirdness so even like especially lately I've been like has anyone ever been killed by a random cyclone I'm doing stuff like that where I'm like you're making this way too hard for yourself yeah yeah and then this one came up the other day because there was this article in the Washington Post a bunch of people sent to us so I would like to thank listeners Natalia and Amanda and the first one to have posted this article and say hey what about this have you ever heard of this theory I love it or you giving fucking first person credit.

[376] This is great.

[377] First is like, come on.

[378] First is the best.

[379] First is first.

[380] Fruity troll roll got this to us first.

[381] Of course.

[382] Good old fruity troll roll.

[383] FTR.

[384] FTR.

[385] Yeah, you know.

[386] I was like, can you please find, because I really want to give credit.

[387] This is something that came to me. And sometimes I rely so heavily on those suggestions.

[388] Amen.

[389] And Frutie Troll roll was like, hey, do you guys?

[390] And I was like, thank you.

[391] So this is the story.

[392] like it's so excited Karen just one second in me and now I'm like on the edge of my fucking couch I just want to double my article couch check wait uh oh Karen has a pen in her mouth which absolutely disgust me don't ever put your pen and pencils in your mouth people it's just germ city it's like licking a fucking doorknob especially in this house you've seen my cat sit butthole first on a pen Karen God damn it Georgia that thing was in the mouth also this I don't know I'm feeling filling the silence when we could really just have Sue and cut it out.

[393] That's right.

[394] I like it.

[395] It's like I've somehow fallen and you have to cover.

[396] And I'm covering with a couple glasses of wine that I've had.

[397] And I'm just going to fill the time.

[398] Elvis, how do you feel about it?

[399] Right.

[400] Thank you for you for sending the story of the Lady of the Dunes.

[401] Have you heard this one?

[402] Yes, but I don't.

[403] Yes.

[404] Okay.

[405] This is a cold case from 1974.

[406] and oh i know yes do you know yes and did you read this article yeah but i was like i've heard this before like i didn't like pay attention to it okay so great so this was just in the washington post and which is why it's kind of come back around and in this article and sorry it was um the article was written by a guy named isaac stanley becker for the washington post and it's really if it's it's it's so fascinating and it's cool and it's about somebody but then it's also about this cold case and there's a movie involved which of course you know I love so it was all very interesting but it's very pop culturey it is and kind of timely it crosses lots of interest lines or makes a lot of connections but also there's a book written by a writer named Deborah Halber she wrote it in 2014 called The Skellum Crew which is about online sleuth solving crimes fucking fun and so they refer to this cold case as the holy grail of a case to be solved so I think that's why it comes up a lot and I also think it comes up a lot because the police in this area in Provincetown, Massachusetts kind of haven't let it go they just keep bringing it back to the news like it seems like the one that they really want to solve in camp but it's also got a really cool name that's like creepy the Lady in the Dunes that's like so it's like the Talmud shooed kind of case where it's like that sounds what is that it's intriguing that's right also i just said the lady in the dunes which is what i wrote in this document it's the lady of the dunes i keep saying as if it's the lady in the water the m night shemalian film that i don't think that many people saw it's the lady of the dams okay so essentially here's how it goes on friday july 26 1974 a 13 year old girl is walking her beagle along the race point dunes in Provincetown and her parents are there they're visiting their friend who lives in one of what they called the artist studio or it was an artist studio they were called the Dune Shacks so they were these um these old shacks that basically people went and lived in and kind of refurbished and it was like because it was away from everything and like everything's like like like like sea salt worn and shit exactly I'm thinking of um the lost boys right now like you know like that kind of when they That's right.

[407] Pull into town and shit.

[408] That's Santa Cruz, you know.

[409] Oh, right.

[410] Yes.

[411] Yes.

[412] Well, then I'm thinking of the wrong city.

[413] Weird thing in the wrong coast.

[414] But it's that feel because it's beachy, but it's very remote.

[415] Yeah.

[416] And so she's walking her dog, right?

[417] Because her parents are back.

[418] It's 1974.

[419] It's an artist shack.

[420] Yeah.

[421] So, you know, she's like, bye, I'm going to walk around the dunes.

[422] And when she gets to this basically a patch of pine trees, her dog smells something runs off beagles they're good at those fucking beagles and um she finds in a clearing uh the body of a woman was lying face down on a green beach blanket naked and the woman has been there long enough and she's in the state of decomposition that she's kind of a bluish green color so of course the little girl runs back to her parents and they call the park ranger station.

[423] And head ranger Jim Hankins is the first person to arrive on the scene.

[424] So he finds the body of this woman.

[425] She's 5 '6.

[426] She's somewhere between the ages of 20 and 49.

[427] They can't really tell, though, because she has so much damage and decomposition around her face and head.

[428] Oh, my God.

[429] She has an athletic build.

[430] She has long Auburn hair, and it's tied back in a ponytail with a gold -flecked hair band, and her toenails are painted pink.

[431] and her hands are, they look like they're dug into the sand like she was doing a push -up.

[432] Yeah, like trying to get up.

[433] Yeah, yeah.

[434] But actually, when he looks closer, her hands have been removed.

[435] Oh, my God.

[436] Isn't it insane that someone could lay there that long without being detected?

[437] They think it was between, it could have been between one to three weeks that she was laying next.

[438] So that's kind of how remote this area is.

[439] Yeah.

[440] And at the time, What the park rangers were trying to figure out is, like, they knew who drove in and out of that park.

[441] Right.

[442] Because you had to go by the park ranger station.

[443] And that's the old sign up here.

[444] And we buy down your license and they know everything.

[445] So they don't know who she is.

[446] She didn't have a car.

[447] They don't know how she got to such a remote location.

[448] It's also so creepy that she's on a beach.

[449] Like, she's not, no one, like, tried to hide her.

[450] It's like the place where she last.

[451] It's almost like she lay down on this beach blanket and died.

[452] Right.

[453] But no. Yeah.

[454] And because she.

[455] So basically, because she's naked, and there's no overt sign of assault or struggle, they are thinking that she could have been, she was laying in this patch and it was, she went into the patch of trees so that nobody could see her from the beach, because this is like in the dunes area.

[456] So it's away from the water.

[457] And she went to basically not have tan lines.

[458] So she's nude sunbathing, maybe falls asleep in the sun.

[459] And that's when she gets hit in the head, blunt force trauma cracks her skull, and that was the cause of death.

[460] The angle, when they do the autopsy or figure out the angles, they realize the person who hit her was probably laying next to her.

[461] What?

[462] Yes, because that's the angle of the blow.

[463] Hit her while they were laying next to her?

[464] Right.

[465] So either she knew the person.

[466] And that's why there's no struggle.

[467] and she was asleep or just laying there calmly.

[468] Sure.

[469] Or she was asleep and the person came and, like, laid down, I mean, like, they, it's just, like, you can run 17 creepy scenarios.

[470] She didn't jump up in fear in any way, so, yeah.

[471] She either was asleep or she knew the person is the theory.

[472] Right.

[473] Or wasn't threatened in some way by this person.

[474] Right.

[475] And the, and the reason that they don't believe, and there's not evidence of a sexual assault.

[476] because she's uh yes she's nude but her her jeans are folded up underneath her head okay and so it got i've like laid out in that position in that scenario and that with a pillow right and her um the towel she's laying on is not disturbed right the sand around her is not disturbed which is very strange so strange um so all of that is you know that's that takes a while for them to put all that together.

[477] But basically once head ranger Jim Hankins basically sees what's on his, you know, what they have there, he calls police chief Jimmy meets at home.

[478] And so when the police further investigate, they find that she had dental work that they classify it as New York style because it costs between $5 ,000 and $10 ,000.

[479] At that time.

[480] What year was it again?

[481] 74.

[482] That's crazy.

[483] And she had seven gold crowns.

[484] Holy shit.

[485] So it's the idea that this is not, you know, in their minds.

[486] Yeah.

[487] It's not a runaway.

[488] She hasn't been living on the street.

[489] This is a person who has been taken care of who's had a good life or at least access to good dental care, which means you're not probably not in a rural setting.

[490] Yeah.

[491] Or like, yeah, the best insurance or whatever.

[492] It's just it's a. Oh, my God.

[493] You know, it's not someone who's like, I've been drug addict living off the street and I'm trying to sleep in the room.

[494] Sure.

[495] Sure.

[496] They're like, there's this is something else.

[497] Some of her teeth have been removed and they don't know when and they, you know.

[498] Like not.

[499] They don't know if it's prior or didn't specify.

[500] But I mean, I think it was, I think it was they believe in the act.

[501] Like her teeth were removed because later on, they suspect Whitey Boulder.

[502] Bulger.

[503] they actually question him Okay keep going So I only know the basics of this And I'm so fucking deep into this and sad It's very cool But also I will say this There's I'm sure so much more online Because so many people have done The internet work about this So if you want the deep dive To know all these details And I would highly recommend You know First of all this I already bought And started Deborah Halber's book The Skeleton Crew And it's great I'm doing it immediately it's great um but also this is just this is something that you know it's one of those things that if i right now went online and then saw where people are like uh the whitey bulger theory is so immature or whatever where i'm always like afterwards i always go like why don't i check reddit first they know everything reddit knows everything they know so let me get back to my paragraph go ahead do it then i'm going to wait here and just talk until you find it They find two sets of footprints leading to her body.

[504] Is one, Jesus?

[505] So that's terrible.

[506] That is, it's what we do.

[507] And then 50 yards away, there's a set of tire tracks.

[508] But all the park rangers, all the vehicles were accounted for.

[509] So that doesn't, like, that never helps anybody.

[510] But what if it's one of the park rangers?

[511] I mean, could be.

[512] That's Reddit.

[513] They're like, God damn it, Georgia.

[514] They're like, we already fucking.

[515] We did that already twice.

[516] We did it in 1997.

[517] Okay.

[518] They think her body could have been there for up to three weeks.

[519] But because they're the dunes, so there's lots of insects.

[520] The decomposition makes it hard.

[521] And she's laying in the sun.

[522] Yeah.

[523] She's laying in a patch where it's, and there's lots of grass around her.

[524] Also, the picture.

[525] They have a photo?

[526] Mm -hmm.

[527] There's pictures.

[528] Actually, do you mind just clicking on that article so that I can show Georgia?

[529] Look, I'm going to do it at some point tonight.

[530] whether it's when you guys are here or when you're gone and I can't sleep.

[531] Stop confronting me about your pictures.

[532] No, and I'm saying is, I'm a monster to show it to me now.

[533] Okay, but don't look, but Stephen don't look at it.

[534] I should just not make Stephen look at this.

[535] I want Stephen to sue us for traumatic stress at some point.

[536] No, it's a Washington Post article.

[537] So essentially, her face and head are unidentifiable because of the wound, because of the decomposition, even though the head trauma because her skull was cracked that was determined to be the cause of death she's also strangled so severely that she was almost decapitated which was also a whitey bolder thing of you know garotting people I don't really know anything about whitey bulger bolder I think every time I say it I think I should be saying the other one but whatever I don't know anything about it he's a hitman I know he's a hitman but I didn't know like well then you do know something about it Okay, hold on.

[538] You got me back for earlier.

[539] That sounded like a...

[540] Did you feel the sting of it?

[541] Third grader.

[542] And it hurt.

[543] And it really hurt.

[544] It brought back to third grade.

[545] I need to fucking write a new chapter for the book about that third grade.

[546] Good.

[547] That'll be for the...

[548] That's bonus content.

[549] Yeah.

[550] Oh, I see it.

[551] It's like a far away.

[552] You can't really tell.

[553] You can't really see, but you can like...

[554] Yeah.

[555] See that.

[556] Oh, I see her foot.

[557] I see that there's something.

[558] Oh, poor baby.

[559] The only clothes that were found there were a blue band and that pair of jeans that were folded under her head.

[560] So she also had a hamburger and french fries in her stomach, which meant that she had been in town recently because she hadn't metabolized those yet.

[561] So there's nowhere to get any of that stuff where she was.

[562] So, of course, they begin searching and questioning as many people as they can.

[563] And they look through missing person reports and the list of vehicles that were in the entire area at the time.

[564] they're getting nothing back.

[565] Then when the police chief first sees the scene, the first person he thinks of is they had just had, he had just prosecuted and sent to jail a serial killer named Tony Costa.

[566] And for a second, he thinks this could be his work.

[567] And then, but it would be impossible because Tony Costa had hung himself in jail two months before.

[568] But it would have been right before.

[569] Crazy.

[570] Bummer.

[571] There was another lead that they had, which I think is interesting.

[572] it was an escaped female prisoner named Rory Kessinger and who was around 25 at the time she had disappeared and so they were like maybe it's why do we know more about this woman I know I mean you can Google it I'm sure there's plenty to know and Reddit's like will fucking tell you but when they went and took DNA from Kessinger's mother obviously later on when DNA was modern and developed it wasn't a match so then there's the Whitey Boulder theory because he removed his victim's teeth so you couldn't identify them as easily and hands and hands so no fingerprints but I don't know if that was his thing right he had also been seen with a woman resembling the victim around the same time that's where he was like located and shit yeah yeah he was a I think he was Boston everyone can now go watch the Johnny Depp movie about him okay and then learn I don't like Johnny Depp and I refuse to watch his movies I just don't like hit men I just don't I don't like men who hit No, of any kind So the police question him But they can't ever link him to anything There's no evidence linking him Except for the M -O Yeah Then there's a serial killer name Haddon Clark Who I've never heard of He was also a paranoid schizophrenic And he was in jail at the time He tells an inmate Quote I could have given the cops her name Because I killed her but not after they beat the shit out of me. So he also told the other inmate that what the cops were looking for was buried in his grandfather's garden.

[573] And then finally, he sent a letter to his friend from jail saying he killed a woman in Cape Cod.

[574] And then he did drawings of a handless woman on her stomach, naked.

[575] He did it.

[576] And along with a map where her body was found.

[577] He did it.

[578] I think it's him.

[579] He also led police where he claimed to have buried two women 20 years ago, but none of these clues or leads or anything lead to actual evidence.

[580] Who is he?

[581] I want to know this.

[582] Haddon Clark.

[583] I've never heard of him and didn't have time to do a separate book report on him.

[584] So that's for, that's a future thing for you.

[585] Okay, great.

[586] But basically, with all these leads, this case goes cold.

[587] So the police end up over time exhuming her body twice.

[588] So in 1980, basically the case goes cold for six years.

[589] Then in 1980, authorities exhume her body so that they can test it for more leads.

[590] They're like, we have to do something.

[591] Then they re - bury the body, but they keep the skull because they know that there's evidence there.

[592] That maybe they just don't know it now.

[593] Oh, that's so awful.

[594] I know.

[595] And eventually the police chief, James Meads, he puts the skull on his desk.

[596] and leaves it there because he says he vows to find the name of this woman that the lady of the Dunes will be identified before he retires.

[597] So then again, they exhumed her in 2000 because DNA developments.

[598] And so they gather more DNA that protesting that they didn't have in 1980.

[599] In 2010, the forensic reconstruction of the Lady of the Dunes face appears in the Boston Globe.

[600] And that's when Deborah Halber, the author of The Skeleton Crew, she sees it in the globe and it inspires her to write a book about all these unsolved cases that people are working on on the internet.

[601] And that's basically what got her.

[602] The Full Name of the Book, Sorry, is The Skeleton Crew, How Amateur Slews are Solving America's Coldest Cases.

[603] Amazing.

[604] Very cool.

[605] So this is the modern layer that's fun and exciting and weird.

[606] That made me go crazy Okay In 2015 there's a writer named Joe Hill And he's watching An episode of haunting evidence It was The episode was from 2006 It was season one episode six He's watching it And they bring up the lady Of the dunes They show that reconstruct The facial reconstruction of her And they show And they describe the clothes That were found with her the jeans and the blue bandana that she wore around her head the blue bandana yes like a churchase exactly we call it a schmata and yet that's right so basically he watches that and is fascinated by it and then soon after he goes to the 50th anniversary screening of Jaws it's his favorite movie and he takes his three sons to go see it and as they're watching it's 54 minutes and two seconds into the movie you know the part where they reopen the beach so everyone can go to the beach for the fourth of july so they have all these big crowd scenes of people going to the beach and wait is that filmed in kate kod yes it's filmed like right there it was it was filmed 100 miles it was filmed in two different beach locations a hundred miles from where her body was found okay but basically in the same you know state general area.

[607] But not right there.

[608] Okay.

[609] But nearby.

[610] And when he's watching, he spots this woman in the crowd.

[611] I've seen this.

[612] Oh, my God.

[613] She has a blue schmata, her chief on her head.

[614] Long, Auburn hair.

[615] Long brown hair.

[616] Loose white T -shirt, blue jeans.

[617] She looks mid -20s.

[618] Just like a random woman in the background.

[619] Athletic build, probably five, six.

[620] yeah um and when you see her the the woman in this picture's nose is a bit bigger than the one in the facial reconstruction it's creepy but it's he basically spotted it and then he talks about in this article thank you in the boston in the Washington post article he talks about how there's no rewind when you're at the movie right there's no pausing at the movies so then he was just like freaking out and going could it be and he says he knows it's because he's a writer and he writes like ghost stories and creepy stories.

[621] So he's like, of course my brain wants to fill that in and wants to make that connection, but what if, what if, what if?

[622] And so then he goes home.

[623] And so wait, the Jaws and that scene and everything was filmed like right before she got murdered or like she was found.

[624] That's right.

[625] So they were filming Jaws in 1974 in that area.

[626] If I knew more about Cape Cod, I would be able to explain it, but I kind of can't.

[627] But it's basically the explanation is within a hundred miles, which I realize that's a lot of miles, is wide, except they had to get people, so those crowd scenes, they had to get a shit -fucking ton of people to show up because it had to be the thing of look at all these people here.

[628] So it was hundreds and hundreds of extras.

[629] Small town.

[630] But that's also a typical outfit for the mid -70s, too.

[631] Right.

[632] And the hair and the, you know, it's not that out of character for a woman to be wearing that at the beach.

[633] No, no, no. But I think it's just him seeing.

[634] It's basically the story that gets looped in his mind that is very, it's just like the kind of lead where you go, it's possible.

[635] Yeah, yeah.

[636] Is because if she, everybody knew that Spielberg was making a movie on a cape that summer.

[637] Everyone nearby knew it.

[638] And everybody knew that they needed people for crowd scenes.

[639] Like that was, they said that that was the thing that like went all around everywhere.

[640] So, so it wasn't like.

[641] If it was like, okay, we live here, but up in Bakersfield, they're making a movie, and we might be able to be in it.

[642] Let's drive up there.

[643] Like, and maybe let's hitchhike up there because it's 1970, fucking four.

[644] And maybe I'm rich and I live in this town with my parents, but I want to go up there and take my gold fillings up and fucking have a weekend.

[645] Well, that makes sense.

[646] And then it makes sense to if whoever she is, her parents had passed away and she was just like on her own because someone would have connected her with a missing person by now.

[647] You know what I mean?

[648] Yes.

[649] So that makes me think that like there weren't a lot of people who knew her or she was escaping a fucking, you know, a mess and no one reported her missing because they didn't think she was.

[650] They thought she just fucking skipped town.

[651] Now this is making me think of the teacher's pet podcast where a woman who had tons of family friends, a brother who was a cop.

[652] And the exact same fucking thing happened because it was back in the day and people kept going, I thought they were.

[653] going to take care of it.

[654] I thought the police were taking care of it.

[655] And if you have one person giving a cover story, she's not here because she went to Europe.

[656] Yeah.

[657] She finally wants to be a cult or something.

[658] She told us to say, fuck you.

[659] And everyone goes, oh, that's awful.

[660] Yeah.

[661] And then this is what.

[662] And no one looks into it happening.

[663] Yeah.

[664] That's a good point.

[665] I mean, it's just something, but I think it's kind of an interesting thing of the, that they shot that scene in July of the 1974, and her body is found at the end of July of 1974.

[666] Wait, okay, I don't think I realize it was that close.

[667] Yes.

[668] And they've never been able to fucking find if this extra woman was like, oh no, that was me, I'm alive, what's up?

[669] No, because the casting director, and I don't know if it's the casting director or Jaws or if they had hired an extras casting director, could be a different person, but whoever that person would be that would have known any names or I guess I mean, like, how would you know?

[670] You don't get names names you get release forms.

[671] Yeah, I've been an extra and they give zero to none shit about you.

[672] Yeah.

[673] But even that person died in 2009.

[674] Yeah.

[675] So any, they, they can't figure out the way to trace hundreds of people that way.

[676] Dude.

[677] Hundreds of potentially locals.

[678] Yeah.

[679] And it's like a thing that a ton of people did.

[680] Oh my God.

[681] Um, but he still goes in and pulls the thing and talks about his theory and brings it to the police and they're like, we've heard this theory.

[682] Yes.

[683] You know, like, thank you.

[684] And And they're, he said they're receptive, but it didn't, it didn't thrill them.

[685] It wasn't something they hadn't heard before.

[686] And no link is found.

[687] But here is the quote from Joe Hill in the Washington Post article that I liked.

[688] Two astonishing things happened on cake cod in the summer of 1974.

[689] One is that Steven Spielberg film Jaws and the others that someone murdered this woman in the dunes outside Provincetown and got away with it.

[690] anything that stirs people's memories could potentially be productive.

[691] And this is still an unsolved cold case.

[692] And Joe Hill now has a podcast called Inside Jaws.

[693] And that's how this story, I think, got brought to light.

[694] Wow.

[695] Because he loves that movie so much.

[696] And then the thing I will say now at the very end, because in every article, it's what they start with.

[697] But Joe Hill is his pen name.

[698] And he actually is Stephen King's son.

[699] Oh, my God.

[700] Yeah.

[701] And that's the Lady of the Dunes.

[702] Dude.

[703] The cold case that everyone's still working on and hopefully will get solved someday soon.

[704] Steven, solve it.

[705] That's banana.

[706] I know, right?

[707] Oh, my God.

[708] God.

[709] I know.

[710] What do you get solved soon?

[711] Also, I love that movie, Josh, so much.

[712] Yeah, it's the best.

[713] it's truly a perfect movie yeah it is it's a perfectly perfectly done movie and the idea that it was stephen spilberg's like basically like aside from duel it was his first big like blockbuster is crazy and that now it could be possibly tied to a fucking cold case murder of the woman that's like that's the creepiest thing i've ever that's it's so you know what it's like it's like the guy and the exorcist that was the x -ray technician that was a serial killer it's that thing i love that so much where there some things you know it's not common at all that it's a movie but there are things where like people get captured on film because and it back then it did happen sometimes it's much more common today yeah but like back then it happened but it's just like those weird backstories of like in like the wizard of Oz you can see the legs of someone who hang themselves from a tree or like in three men and a baby you know that was a historic right yeah I know that was yeah and then the three men in a baby you can see a ghost in the background from a person who killed them so which is like none of it's true it's all explained away but it just like adds this level of like um like lure uh this like lore to this yes you know and it's just as fun at least for me obviously the way i just said that to you because it clearly it's the third great episode but at least for smart people like me is that what you know at least for able that read half an article like me but it's just as fun to get caught up in the in the lore yeah and then debunk the lore.

[714] Yeah.

[715] You get to be all the people.

[716] You get to be the innocent tool that believes it.

[717] And then, yeah, and then you get to read the article that says that was actually a cardboard cutout of a little boy that they hid behind the curtain thinking, get rid of this.

[718] And then everybody thinks it's a ghost.

[719] Yeah.

[720] Which is just as fun as there's a ghost to me. Totally.

[721] Because what if we're all wrong?

[722] Yeah.

[723] And guess what we are.

[724] And what if cardboard cutouts are ghosts.

[725] What if ghosts are cardboard cutouts?

[726] What?

[727] Yeah.

[728] Every time it's just somebody floating a cardboard cut out by you.

[729] It's a ghost with a cardboard cutout.

[730] Paranormal cardboard cutout experiences.

[731] My new series.

[732] Someone please make our new series.

[733] I'm EP.

[734] That's right.

[735] We just think of an idea and I'm like, well, did you hear about my new series?

[736] Someone please make.

[737] Of your idea.

[738] Someone please make the fucking logo like on the, you know.

[739] It's already done.

[740] I know.

[741] I know.

[742] It's Wednesday night and by tomorrow morning it's done.

[743] Again, thank you, fruity troll roll for being a part of our lives.

[744] Oh, that was, that was a wild ride.

[745] I mean, I feel like this could have also been, it was a shorty for me, but this could have been 12 pages long with all of the players, so much to learn and grow from in these.

[746] Truly, who is?

[747] The next eight episodes are going to be based off of this story.

[748] Who is Haddon Clark?

[749] Whitey Bulger, Whitey Bulger.

[750] Then also.

[751] Bulger is that, like, cracked wheat that they served.

[752] Bulger.

[753] Whitey Bulger.

[754] Bulger, like Ray Bulger, who played the scarecrow in the Wizard of...

[755] Wow.

[756] What a great story.

[757] Sad, but fascinating.

[758] Thank you, everyone so much for listening.

[759] We appreciate all your support and love over the years.

[760] As always, you can catch me here every week.

[761] And also, if you want to hear me talk about cats with my friend Sarah, you can always listen to the Percast, part of the exactly right family.

[762] again, thank you so much for listening.

[763] Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[764] Goodbye.

[765] Elvis, do you want a cookie?