S1 E13: We All Dodged a Bullet

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Hey, hi, it has been a busy break for the podcast, and I'm really excited to be back.

[11] Today's surprise episode is the final episode planned for season one, and it is revealing.

[12] Soon you'll be seeing season two episodes dropping in your feet.

[13] I'll fill you in more on what's to come later in the show.

[14] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be tricky.

[15] triggering to some.

[16] Please use discretion when listening.

[17] A few weeks after the Q &A episode was recorded, I was avoiding social interactions at a birthday party when I received an Instagram voice message from an old friend of mine, Lindsay Number One.

[18] Lindsay Number One shared that she and a friend had been listening to the podcast, and apparently her friend was something of a web sleuth, and she had discovered Dick's real identity.

[19] When Lindsay Number One went to Insta Stock Dick, she was shocked to see that another friend of hers, also named Lindsay, was following Dick's private Insta account.

[20] She messaged Lindsay No. 2 to ask her how the hell she knew this douchebag, and Lindsay No. 2 shared that she had unfortunately dated him in 2018.

[21] Lindsay No. 2 and Sarah connected briefly over text and set up a time for us to talk.

[22] What we learned was both shocking and alarming.

[23] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[24] You don't know me you don't know me at all.

[25] Think you know me you don't know me well.

[26] So this is pretty crazy.

[27] I'm in just finishing up nursing school right now.

[28] So we're like in exams.

[29] And then Lindsay, my friend called me out of the blue, you know, two days ago and was like, dude.

[30] I'm like, what?

[31] This can't even be real.

[32] You hadn't listened to the podcast.

[33] yet when she called you right so you had no idea what she was talking about yeah i had no idea so she had um she had messaged me through instagram sending me a snapshot of his his instagram profile and she was like dude how do you know this guy and i'm like i don't know like we dated but the guy's a freak so i didn't know it was like i have no idea what you're talking about so she had sent me her podcast but I hadn't, I didn't listen to it until yesterday morning.

[34] I was like, holy crap, that's insane, but I get it.

[35] Like, it made sense to me. It wasn't really, like, it wasn't like in shock and awe more of like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[36] Yeah.

[37] Well, yeah, because he's seen it.

[38] So you, you met him on Matt?

[39] Yeah, that's what I met him was on Matt.

[40] Okay, what cracks me up is when he and I connected, the story that he kept.

[41] like repeating to everybody was that he had been in this season of undividedness you know where he wasn't seeing anybody it was just you know him and the lord and that he had deleted his hinge app even off of his phone and then when i liked one of his photos he got an email which i know now i'm pretty sure hinge doesn't email you when you get notifications or when there's activity on there but anyway it's just funny that it not only was all that a bunch of you know crap but she was on Matt too so my story with him was I had I was living in Reading and I had gotten on Matt I had been on there and he was the first guy I had like ever like met or was interested on like a dating site because obviously after listening to the podcast we all know like how suave and great ex communication and just super easy and cool it was to talk with him much of the same similarities how you guys met it sounded like and he was living you know in san Francisco at the time and my one of my best friends sarah she lives in san Jose and so i within like a week he was like hey come down whatever and so that's the first time and i had went on actually brought my friend sarah on the date and just because it was like you know big city and whatever Yeah, that's smart.

[42] So we met and he was how he was when you met him, I'm sure.

[43] It was just very fun and easy and whatnot.

[44] So I want to say that was sometimes during, before December, my best recollection I'm thinking was my friend and I, we kind of put our head together and we're thinking like it was September, October and there of 2017.

[45] Wow.

[46] and then that's when you started dating yeah so that's like when we first started like that's when we first like met unmatched and um whoa whoa whoa okay sorry it was like the end of 2017 to the beginning of 2018 oh my gosh okay so I thought it was at the end of like 2017 whereabouts because it was the holiday like on our date in San Francisco, like, you know, Christmas lights were starting to come up and the weather was cold.

[47] So it was like holiday season, right?

[48] And so we, so we didn't get into like a relationship like you guys did.

[49] So I'll just be clear about that.

[50] I was super busy with my businesses up in Reading and he was super busy doing all the things that he says he does.

[51] and you know i mean it was like a lot and so it worked out great for us because we only saw each other when we had time which now makes a ton of sense because he was super busy but what was kind of funny in the podcast when you talked about you living in sacramento and him saying he's never been there and like that's a lie because the only reason why he would come up and see me a lot was because he said he was working a lot in Sacramento.

[52] Oh, my gosh.

[53] And so, you know, there was like a whole bunch of weird coincidences that aren't very coincidental now that you look back at it.

[54] So he had been to Sacramento because he would come up to see me and said it was very easy because he was coming that way anyways.

[55] And he would probably see me. He would come up like maybe every other week.

[56] So can I, okay, because now my, my, my, like, memories are all freaking out, or I'm freaking out and thinking of all the memories.

[57] So when you would, when he would come up to see you, did he come up to Reading or did you guys meet in fact?

[58] No, he would come up to Reading or I would go to San Francisco.

[59] We never met in fact.

[60] Now, were these like during weekdays or weekends?

[61] From weekends.

[62] Because I think we were with each other almost every weekend from probably maybe October -ish to I mean, well after we were engaged.

[63] It could have been a weekday.

[64] He never stayed the night up in Reading.

[65] He never stayed up there.

[66] So when he did come to see me, it would be for like a half a day or something.

[67] And then most of the time, it was me going down and seeing him.

[68] Gosh, I would just kill to know, like, specifically, because everything is so fresh and vivid in my mind, because it was so fast and short.

[69] That's why I feel so bad because you're, like, on high alert because you know all this stuff.

[70] And for me, I'm like, yeah, I've, I've dated.

[71] times of people since and like this crazy psycho dude that and then once this came up I was like oh God like I feel so bad for you because I've been married before and I met a guy the guy who I married was almost identical to now finding out who was and it I think it was just a God thing like when we did meet there were so many of those same like types of character traits that that I was like something's off.

[72] And I even told Lindsay, number one, that I never introduced them.

[73] Like, we never took it that far.

[74] I never introduced them to my family or anything up here for a couple of reasons.

[75] And one was because I never introduced anybody to my family because they get very connected.

[76] Like, they get very excited, right?

[77] Like, I'm in my 30s.

[78] Like, oh, my God, you met finally.

[79] We don't have to worry about you being a geriatric pregnancy.

[80] like kick the board right and so i don't ever want to introduce them to anybody because i'm like i don't know if i'm going to like them in six months right and i got married really quick to a guy just like him so i kind of have this rule of i day for six months and i don't care if i love them or they love me just because they got burned before so i didn't introduce him to like my family but at the end of i want to say the end of December, beginning of January, was when he started getting super busy and weird stuff started happening.

[81] Like we, one of our last conversations that was sitting in the car in Reading and he was wherever he was.

[82] And we got into a big fight about religion and by fight, I don't mean yelling, but a very, I'm holding my own, he's holding his own viewpoint.

[83] I remember this conversation was like three hours where he was all.

[84] about, he wanted to know about my day and I had told him I was reading this book by Joyce Meyer, right?

[85] Uh -oh, uh -oh.

[86] And then then hell broke loose.

[87] It was like, Karen, take alert.

[88] Yeah, it was like The Great Divide, right?

[89] Like, it's just instantly, the spawn of Satan came out of him and it was just like, you have to stop reading that book, you know?

[90] And then he tried doing this whole demeaning parental thing with me, and I'm like, what do you mean?

[91] And then we started going back and forth with Bible verses and by that time, I was like, whoa.

[92] hold the phone there to be no way in a in a relationship of like mutual respect and godly love that we're fighting over females having a place in the church right like that was my big thing with him where the red flags went up i got off the phone with him i talked with my parents they had knew i was seeing him and had liked him but had never met him and my parents were like get out of it there's something going on that's weird it shouldn't be like that all the stuff right and I had kind of the same intuition, but was still kind of, you could probably relate, was still stuck into his coyness and just so calm and cool, and he would make it up by calling and saying, you know, like, I'm so sorry, like, let's move on past that, blah, blah, blah.

[93] And that would kind of keep me, but then we would always, I always had that in the back of my mind, like, man, he is really strong on that.

[94] And then he would say some stuff about the church I went to and all these other things, and I started to see this pattern.

[95] And it was in January, he had gotten super busy, and he just stopped talking to me out of the blue.

[96] When I answered my phone calls, deleted me from Instagram, from whatever Instagram he had because I found out he had, like, three or four.

[97] And so he had deleted me from that one, and I had no contact.

[98] And at that point, I was super pissed, but more thankful, but super pissed.

[99] Like, what?

[100] I've been sitting there on my gosh.

[101] time like all the stuff and then like a couple of weeks later i want to say like three or four weeks later he requested me on instagram again and when i pulled it up when i accepted him these were all the photos i saw and this was january 25th wait he requested you and those photos were posted yeah so i don't know what the point of all of that was but when then like when i started instagramming him dude w he would not respond and it was just like I had met somebody and it went really fast and blah blah blah okay so I saw that freaked out sent that stuff to my friends and then then she said her whatever you dodged a bullet and we both kind of just went on with life because I'm like yeah wrong with this dude obviously he has some major stuff going on and he met somebody while he met me and got engaged he just that's why he's wrong with this dude obviously he has some major stuff going on and he met somebody while he met me and got engaged he just that's why he was busy.

[102] So that's why he didn't care about a lot of stuff that I would talk.

[103] You know, it was just, it kind of all came into this perfect storm for me. Yeah.

[104] And so I just, I just let it go.

[105] And then it wasn't until, like, the end of the year, end of 2018, like in September, he re -requested me on Instagram again.

[106] Wow.

[107] Yeah, yeah, it's like he, it's so perverted, right?

[108] And it just makes no sense.

[109] And it was from a different Instagram.

[110] and all of your guys' pictures were off.

[111] And so I'm like, oh, what the heck?

[112] And then I had weird scattered Instagrams in September through December of last year where he would reach out and I'm still trying to get answers from him.

[113] Like what in the hell happened?

[114] When did you meet?

[115] Why?

[116] Why, why, why?

[117] And he still never had answers.

[118] So that was the end of it.

[119] Like I never responded back.

[120] He's tried to like come.

[121] see me out here and again it was just I just never responded I just knew at that point when did he last try to come see you or suggest to come to see you that was in September but he's been out in Colorado since June yeah I have no idea I didn't know where he lived or like whatever I we never conversations like hey how's your life anything like that it was more I was my questions were like the same every time what happened just tell me what happened I just want to meet her I just want like answers but then when lindy had given me all of this information now it kind of all makes sense yeah from my from my perspective obviously not from yours yeah so um i haven't listened to all the podcast i don't know if i'm going to to be honest just because at this point it's all like posh posh to me it's like too this guy's way it is what it is yeah yeah way beyond help but i know that when you talked about going to that concert and staff that he took you to, I remember him telling me, like, that was one of his, like, favorite Christian bands and that he was going to see them.

[122] And so when I was doing the podcast, I was like, dude, no way.

[123] So I knew at that point in the podcast as well, okay, that just confirmed that he was seeing you at the same time.

[124] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[125] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy New York.

[126] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[127] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[128] She's like, I can't.

[129] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[130] Like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[131] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[132] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[133] Well, you were holding something back.

[134] Intentionally.

[135] Yeah, yeah.

[136] Well, yeah.

[137] No, it's hysteria.

[138] It's all in your head.

[139] It's not physical.

[140] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[141] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[142] Or is it something else entirely?

[143] Something's wrong here.

[144] Something's not right.

[145] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[146] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[147] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[148] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[149] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[150] I'm Sachi Cole.

[151] And I'm Sarah Hagg.

[152] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[153] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[154] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[155] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[156] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[157] You can listen to scam influencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[158] And then when you guys were in Colorado, he had called me and Texas.

[159] me from Colorado and was telling me about his time in Colorado and was like spending on a time to see me again.

[160] And so that was another thing where I was like, okay, you were with him in Colorado.

[161] He was calling me from a Colorado trip he was on.

[162] So all these different things where it was like, man, that he was really trying to juggle like the roots for sure.

[163] Oh, oh my gosh.

[164] And let me tell you, I mean, that trip to Colorado, his parents were handing us a check for our wedding.

[165] That's what this trip was.

[166] And yet at some point during this, he was on the phone.

[167] I'm trying to figure out even when, like, he had time to be on the phone because that trip was so nonstop.

[168] Yeah.

[169] I don't know, dude.

[170] I don't know.

[171] It's like.

[172] Was it like at night that he was on the phone with you or during the day?

[173] I know this is, if you don't remember, it's no big deal.

[174] I honestly, I wish I could tell you.

[175] It's okay.

[176] I have no idea.

[177] I can't even remember what it ate for breakfast yesterday.

[178] I know.

[179] just like land of stress but I have no idea I just know that he did we had contact I knew he was in Colorado like I knew these things that he was doing but again we weren't in a serious relationship and we saw each other when we had time nonetheless it doesn't make it good or settle easy to know I mean for either one of us because when I heard that I was like oh yeah I remember him telling me about that trip, except for you weren't involved in it, you know.

[180] Right.

[181] Yeah, this was a little detail you left out.

[182] Did you know he took ProVigil?

[183] Okay, here's the thing.

[184] So he, it's hard to keep everything straight with him.

[185] And so I would just kind of tune a lot out, but I do, there was a lot of talk around supplements, energy stuff.

[186] He would pop, I was always under the impression that he was just downing supplement like crazy.

[187] Yeah, at the same time, part of me have this weird feeling that I should maybe look into some of the stuff he was taking, but he was just super flipping about it.

[188] And I knew that he would be up late at times, but he always said he was doing work or doing design stuff or doing a side gig, you know, contract work, studying the Bible.

[189] So, he's so gross.

[190] But, okay, so anyway, yeah, he, I mean, during our time, you know, he had, this is so gross, but I'm going to tell you.

[191] So he, I remember him telling me, like, because he would be up late, yes, I concur.

[192] This too, I know.

[193] And he would call me, like, super late at night.

[194] And he would be, like, crazy full of energy.

[195] And I'm just like, why are you not sleeping?

[196] And he said, like, he had all these sleeping issues.

[197] And in one conversation, he was like, I need to get this, like, refill from this doctor.

[198] And I'm like, oh, for what?

[199] And because I'm in the health field, you know, I'm like, oh, yeah, tell me about the drugs you're taking.

[200] Yeah.

[201] And it's pro -vigil.

[202] And I'm like, why does that prick are you taking Adderall?

[203] Because ProVigil is pretty much Adderall.

[204] It's a super powerful stimulant.

[205] But it's an off -label drug that's used mostly to treat like narcolepsy or sleep apnea or people who travel a lot for work.

[206] And they have that like sleep disorder, that sleep -wake disorder.

[207] But he said that he was taking it because the guy, Dave, whatever, the.

[208] see vast freak yeah dude his Bsf oh so stupid he yeah right they're their besties I'm like you never even met that freaking dude like no not at all whatever and he would like he would say yeah not to get off topic but he would tell me stuff like that and I just like I think maybe because I was so involved thankfully in my own life that I just never really had time to listen to like all the shit he would say and some of that was like about like this dave dude right or like that he i remember on her first day he told me that he had like cancer and i never like looked into it right i'm like he's just like weird stuff like that but so he had mentioned he was taking provisial and i got like whoa please why are you taking that and a lot of our conversations were around like him being off of that because a lot of people use that it's an upper so it changes like moods it changes it makes you like really ramps up so it's like people who take adderall and make me as a totally different person if you don't have like a sleep disorder pro -vigil is like taking adderall when you don't have ADHD you know it changes the chemical imbalances and if you don't have any imbalances it's just going to make you kind of up and crazy and get a lot accomplished but it makes you rant and do a whole bunch of other stuff so it changes your personality so for that I was like dude you need to get off of this and we would talk about it all the time but he would be up late at night and saying he was like need this refill whatever but late at night he would like send me pictures and it was at the time I want to say it was like near December he was like at the time where I was really busy and he would ask me to come down and see him like hey can you drag down tonight and I never knew why it was always like had to be on his timeline but makes sense now because obviously he had a really strict timeline with you so it was always like on his and he was like get mad at me for like not wanting to have like sexing conversations wow yeah and he would sit out on like have you been to his place in san francisco oh yeah this is so gross there i don't even want to tell you this stuff because he's so nasty and now looking at pictures of him i'm like you're so unattractive but But he would, like, did me, like, make -it picks of him in his hammock, like, laying there in the morning, drinking his coffee, like, butt -naked.

[209] Wow.

[210] Wow.

[211] Okay, I'm floored because, like, real talk, be just being honest, he wasn't, like, that wasn't a part of our relationship.

[212] And we didn't, like, there was no sexting.

[213] He was very, like, he kept it pretty conservative.

[214] he never sent me nudes so but you know what's weird is I knew that there was a streak because of jokes that he would make about other people and I thought you there's some perversion in there but I didn't that I did that didn't on me to like way later because it started to come out way later but for some reason he really kept it under lock and I'm also freaking out while you're telling me about the provigil and how it's an upper and how it alters personalities I'm remembering times when he would be texting me randomly and it would be like all of a sudden it'd be crazy it was a like crazy.

[215] I would just get a hundred techniques, literally, one after the other, after the other.

[216] And it was just like, woo -hoo, and a bunch of, there were, like, different versions of him.

[217] And I'd be like, okay, we are on a, you know, we're on a good move today.

[218] Right.

[219] Yeah.

[220] And, I mean, I don't want to contribute all that to the drug, but I want to say, like, that drug.

[221] I know people who take that.

[222] It's very hard drug to get, and he was getting it.

[223] And this is what he said.

[224] So take that.

[225] a grain of salt, but he said he was getting it from, like, some doctor friend that he knew in, like, Jamaica or some weird island that he was in, too.

[226] Can you ever say anything about that?

[227] No. That's the first I've heard of that, honestly.

[228] Yeah.

[229] He said he, like, with, he's had this vacation where he knew, like, this doctor who were in a different, I mean, obviously a different country somewhere.

[230] I don't know where.

[231] I don't remember where he said, but that's where he was getting the drug.

[232] And so it was like, okay, it's a really hard drug to get.

[233] So at the time, I was like, so you have a doctor friend who's prescribing you provisual.

[234] I mean, nothing he said really made sense, but I never really questioned a lot of it.

[235] And I don't know if it was just because it was like nuts or just because I didn't care.

[236] Well, he told me he'd never been out of the country, but he told you he'd been on like a vacation or something.

[237] Yeah.

[238] so he would get mad like when I would not respond or like send him something back and it was just like this I would just stop talking to him for days when he would send something like that and just get pissed but I just like I don't care because I'm like it's this random guy that I'm seeing it wasn't serious so that's why a lot of this stuff was neither here nor there for me but yeah so he would send picks and stuff like that and it kind of shocked me when it first started happening because you he seemed very emotionally unattached to me but yet was wanting to get like the physical feel of it that's what it felt like and that's why i kind of distanced myself because a combination of felt like i was being used in a sense slash i was you know it was weird about all this religion stuff and to put your mind at ease nothing physical ever happened between us ever so So it wasn't that I think maybe it felt as though that was where the relationship was going.

[239] But I think once he realized, hey, it's not going to go there.

[240] And obviously he's engaged and or dating seriously and like it's trying to plan a life with someone for him.

[241] It was probably like too much work and tried to, you know, too much upkeep for him.

[242] So when he sent you that message, were you clearly like what planet?

[243] you on or?

[244] Yeah.

[245] Well, yeah.

[246] At that point, I knew.

[247] At that point, everything was done in my mind.

[248] At that point, I knew he was seeing somebody else.

[249] I knew he was lying to me. Everything came together in one big, beautiful package where it was like, I know who he is.

[250] I know what he was doing.

[251] I don't want any part of it.

[252] Get it out of my sight.

[253] So at that point, that's where I was like, he wouldn't answer it.

[254] And that's the thing.

[255] And he still wouldn't.

[256] You know, a year later, September, December, he still wouldn't answer it.

[257] So can't tell me why, you know, why his engagement didn't work or why when he dated you or when he got engaged.

[258] Like he could not, he could not or would not answer any of it ever.

[259] It was just very back to, oh, you got the timeline wrong.

[260] It was always something about my timeline.

[261] Oh, it's not how it worked out.

[262] But it would never go into detail.

[263] And that was it.

[264] I never knew, too, that he, until listening to the podcast that he was engaged before you, so he's obviously got tons of issues.

[265] He's a predator that targets very specific girls because we all have very, very distinct similarities in our lifestyle and our beliefs.

[266] The type of churches we attend, our, you know, activities, our ambitions, like, it's creepy.

[267] Yeah.

[268] If you look at like photos of all of us together, it's trippy.

[269] We all have very similar looks about us.

[270] Our families are similar.

[271] It's insane.

[272] I, well, after listening to the podcast, I, you know, I have a history of mental health and my masters and I never, he was kind of exactly like your podcast said, you know, it's one of those guys that have these personality disorders.

[273] And they crave control and dominant and it's I don't know it's pretty disgusting another fun fact so I remember on one of our dates I wanted to take a picture and he would not let me take a picture and I was like I'm not going to post it or anything and he never wanted me to have like a picture of him which he was nude in the hammock right right and so I'm like looking back and I'm like okay so you didn't want me to post it but he probably knew I wouldn't post a nude photo of him on Instagram right so just like kind of the things he knew how to work the system obviously and even like how you said he paid for everything it was the same it was the same type of deal like when he would go out with my friends sarah and i he would pay for everything so he had these very same moves you know he did the same thing over and over so looking back i don't know what why he would even venture out with me like why waste the time that's how I look at it not for me but just for him purposeful selfishness of him like why would he want to waste his time you know when he had you and he was getting everything he wanted in that direction and for me it made me feel bad because I was to you know I'm like man I felt like he was using me at the very end for like the physical aspect and now looking back I kind of feel like that's what it was and so when I got that feeling in the beginning of like that relationship when he started sending me those pictures that's kind of a red flag obviously and it should be for any you know self -respecting female that if you're not in a committed relationship with somebody or you're a gaudy female having a guy send and ask for that stuff is it's a red flag or it is and its intentions and everything are not going in the same direction as one would hope and so at that point i was like dang so he was trying to get something else from me. And when I wasn't giving that to him, it ended.

[274] Yeah.

[275] So which now I look back and I'm like, well, it was a good thing for me because that's not, you know, obviously it's not what I wanted.

[276] And it's a good thing.

[277] I mean, obviously for you, clearly.

[278] We all dodged a bullet.

[279] I mean.

[280] Yeah.

[281] Yeah, I did decide to reach out.

[282] After finding this out yesterday, I just, I don't know why I needed one final little thing just to kind of dehumanize him for me. But I realized, okay, I just kind of put the switch from very very broken human to predatory robot and now I need to warn his current girlfriend and after that I'm obviously not going to bug her but I just I need to know that I'm taking somebody now oh yeah he took her to London last month oh my gosh they've been together since at least so on the anniversary of our engagement which is January 20th he posted in his stories that they were together so they had been together for a little while.

[283] I mean, I'm guessing.

[284] They were already saying, I love you, but with him, I mean, he'll do that three weeks when, because he was asking to come see me in September.

[285] Well, I'm going to guess, this is seriously just a guess, that he met this girl around November, December.

[286] I mean, it could have been earlier, it could have been later, but on January 20th, they were saying, I love you.

[287] So who knows?

[288] Who knows?

[289] Yeah.

[290] Yeah, so what was weird is on when Lindsay one reached out to me Friday evening.

[291] Yeah, and she was like, hey, you're following this dude.

[292] And I was like, first of all, I was shocked him like I am.

[293] I'm still following him.

[294] I didn't know that.

[295] So I, like, went to his page, right, like, saw his page.

[296] And then Saturday after listening to the podcast, I went back and I'm blocked from both of his Instagrams now.

[297] What?

[298] Yeah.

[299] Is that Saturday?

[300] Mm -hmm.

[301] Oh.

[302] He might be stalking.

[303] No, we're following each other now.

[304] I will bet.

[305] I mean, I know for sure that he's watching my public Instagram.

[306] So he probably saw that we're following each other now.

[307] Probably.

[308] He's doing his thing.

[309] He's so stupid, but he's so smart.

[310] And that's the crazy thing with these guys is that personality, that character type.

[311] They're very manipulative and deceptive and they're good at their game.

[312] But eventually they find someone.

[313] who works with their sickness and that may be the girl he's with and it may not be and maybe a girl 10 years later but that's what I found out and you see him you see the same pattern it goes to show how good he is at what he does because even with you even though you saw the red flags and eventually were like you know goodbye I mean with your background and experience and understanding of psychology he still was able to keep conversation with you he still was able to get some of your time that's how they work those guys are the greatest at that i mean they sell with people and getting what they want and being able to you know manipulate the situation and i mean it makes sense that he's already on to the next he has to constantly it's like he has constantly be conquering and be in charge and i just like i keep seeing like pro -vigil i know he's like on some type of stimulant that just like keeps him going there's just like no way a normal human can function like that as he goes and i can tell you he doesn't have sleep issues i mean he would conk out like no problem but he's taking the uppers because he needs the constant simulation yeah and i what i i mean i'm convinced there's a good chance he's probably seeing a couple people right now while he's flying this other girl to london because he just is insatiable he can't be satisfied totally i agree it's a good thing you reached out to the girl but at the same time that's all you can do right like you can't make her see you can't make anybody see anything especially when they're in it it's so very hard oh i know i'm curious what he his issues were he found with your church because every person we've talked to that stated him has mentioned that he has had issues with their church or their pastor and i haven't really heard why yeah well for our conversations were always centered around and this matches perfectly with who he is was that the man is in charge right like the woman is to be like submissive to the man in the sense that like he runs the household and in the church setting in a church is very supposed to be protective and conservative and women kind of take the back seat in a church and that their say is not that it's not important but it's not to be in like the church setting and that women should not be leading the church or speaking or have any type of authority or power in a church setting which okay what are we in the stone ages but what's very interesting is that on dating sites and other people that you meet when you start to get into like the oh what religion are you or oh what do you believe and there's always this one type of guy who is very conservative, but in this weird, ancient, biblical way, where they take everything from the Bible, word for word, and make it their own.

[314] It's like they create their own Bible.

[315] They take it out of context.

[316] And I remember telling him, like, that is not what the Bible says.

[317] The Bible does not say women have no voice in the church and all this other stuff.

[318] And we would, you know, we would fight about it.

[319] And then I remember saying, so we should stone our children.

[320] You know, that's what the Bible said, right?

[321] So when you have a child, you're going to stone your child when they, like, you know, back -talk you or something.

[322] And I remember for the first time, he had nothing to say about that.

[323] And he tried crawling over it in different areas, but could never come back to that.

[324] It was the only issue he ever had, it was always centered around authority.

[325] It really wasn't the church, and it really wasn't the Bible, and it really wasn't anything else besides he really believed that the man had the authority in every sense of the word.

[326] And so anything that challenged, that power or authority, and I think when it came in the church sense, because I remember on our first date, he had told me about, like, his upbringing and all these different things that had led him to Christianity and, like, believe the things he believed.

[327] but it sounded kind of messed up.

[328] It sounded like you had a rough childhood, which leads people into religion, which leads them into having some, like, very strict, weird views.

[329] And that's kind of how he always seemed.

[330] It was anything that had anything to do with authority was not good, which matches him perfectly, right?

[331] He had issues, obviously, with women in authority.

[332] And so that was always his issue with me. And he didn't want me reading books, like Joyce Meyer, or anything that any type of female was relating God or the Bible or anything on a religion basis, he did not want me to read it and would tell me other books to read and would tell me other pastors to watch.

[333] It was as long as I didn't read or believe what a female was saying.

[334] Same.

[335] He had me, I got rid of so many books that were in my room and he would replace them.

[336] He would give me other ones to read.

[337] It felt very oppressive.

[338] And one of the arguments, one of the arguments that we got in, you would always quote that scripture.

[339] I think it's in Corinthians where Paul says that women shouldn't speak in the church.

[340] And I argued back because I went to Bible school and I said, hey, FYI, if you look at the context of that, women also didn't know how to read back then.

[341] So it would make sense that Paul would say women might not want to be teaching in the church because they can't read.

[342] You know, in general in that culture, women weren't taught to read.

[343] But otherwise, that was never repeated.

[344] That wasn't, you know, a theme.

[345] If you look at the cultural context of it, women can't teach what they're not reading.

[346] Or they can't, they're not speaking because they can't read and properly, you know, teach.

[347] But Jesus gave women the first of everything.

[348] Women were the first to see him after he, you know, was resurrected.

[349] Women were approached first.

[350] Women were given a high position.

[351] And he would always divert the conversation.

[352] Somehow I find us talking about something else all of a sudden and be like, oh, I guess we're over here now.

[353] That's over.

[354] No big deal.

[355] I'm all worked up.

[356] And he's looking at me like, yeah, you know, oh, why are you so upset?

[357] Right.

[358] You know, calm down.

[359] Right.

[360] Yes, that was the same for sure.

[361] It was exactly like that, which I think ultimately is why he pays for things and does these things because he's in control.

[362] Once he pays, he's in control.

[363] Then it's what can you give him to make up for the great blessings he has bestowed on your life by whining and dining you and doing these trips?

[364] You must now give me everything that I need and meet my needs because I have done all this for you.

[365] And he's always had a problem with authority, which is funny.

[366] Even growing up, I mean, there were, you know, arrests.

[367] And then I would hear stories of the church that he went to in San Francisco.

[368] He talked about how he got asked to leave a small group.

[369] And he was telling me some story, well, what's funny is the leader of a small group he would then happen to be a woman.

[370] And she contacted the pastor or someone in a pastoral role in their church and complaining about him.

[371] He was so dismissive of it, and I just kind of let it go.

[372] But he constantly had authority problems.

[373] Oh, that's going to carry it with him.

[374] I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk to us.

[375] Oh, gosh, yeah.

[376] Being such a good sport and all of this craziness, because I'm sure you were like, wait, who?

[377] I know.

[378] Yeah, it was, I mean, it was just kind of funny and a weird thing, but it also puts my mind to ease.

[379] Not only do I have, like, the discernment in dating, but also just, it's, solidified some of the things like you were saying they're like it okay it makes a little bit of sense now now you don't have any questions lingering and you know all jokes besides it didn't affect me like it affected you i just can't imagine what you're going through and what you went through it has to be horrible so i feel so bad for you i'm also super thankful that you're out of it and like can see from it and it's just going to make you like stronger and that are able, when you're out back dating, you know, to really be aware of what you want and what you don't want.

[380] I'm just very thankful for what I was spared from.

[381] It's not like, you know, I'm so highly aware that there are women out there listening to this that didn't get out that are either still in it or now they're left with, you know, picking up the pieces and in debt and, I mean, who knows how much debt means actually and all that stuff.

[382] And I'm just, I have this huge, or I just, I get the gravity of what I was spared from.

[383] and just to be allowed to glimpse, you know, to have like a nine -month glimpse into that was all I needed.

[384] I mean, yesterday was super up and down, but I spent some time kind of alone last night, processing everything, and today is completely different.

[385] But at first, it was just really of all the crap that he pulled and everything, like, why is this all of a sudden sending me into like a hatred tail spend just to know that I was on top of everything cheated on the whole time.

[386] But it makes perfect sense.

[387] And other people that have been in it are like, yeah, what do you expect?

[388] I just did, my last rotation was at the involuntary psych ward, and so we just worked with all the, you know, skin, socials and all this stuff on up.

[389] But the main thing with all of them is that they're obsessed with religion.

[390] And so after listening to the podcast, I'm like, yeah, this makes perfect sense.

[391] And it's not like a religion in the sense that we follow a religion, but as in it's all, they're the God, it's all high and mighty.

[392] all they do is talk about religion and the Bible.

[393] And even though some of the stuff that they say is true, they twist everything.

[394] And it's really funny to make that connection because we talk about it all the time is when you're on the floor with them, all these guys will do is just talk about religion, how they're better than God and they haven't figured out.

[395] And, you know, it's like these guys are the actual ones that have killed people and their moms and their sisters and the women that they date or some girls.

[396] with blonde hair who pissed him off in the supermarket, you know, there's no connection and they have no type of empathy and they have the same type of, it's like the same patterns, like the religion, the control, the bad childhood, it's the same exact.

[397] And, you know, unfortunately for him, he falls pretty close in line with all of that.

[398] So if anything, we'll just pray for him.

[399] And for future target.

[400] Yeah.

[401] He needs to for sure get on some meds and not.

[402] like pro -vigil meds but and it takes distracts them they do that because they take the drugs because it distracts them from being so down and dealing with all the other repressed stuff and so they take these things to escape which makes them into this whole new thing and we got to see it play out lucky us it's interesting that you had a previous marriage that sort of allowed you to see through it because one of the other girls that we spoke with that dated him before sarah also had had a previous abusive relationship.

[403] So she was also able to see it more clearly, more quickly because having known the signs and things like that.

[404] And I just think it's such a testament to the purpose of the podcast that we're trying to achieve, which is hopefully if enough people are educated with these signs and see them, even though they seem mundane or they might seem simple, we know from speaking with so many survivors, it's all the same.

[405] It just looks different.

[406] It's packaged different and delivered different, but it's all the same.

[407] So the fact that you're saying that about where you work is.

[408] It's just really confirming for me. Yeah, you, the first thing, like, I tell people is, like, if you feel something is wrong in your gut, something is wrong.

[409] And you don't let anything or anyone tell you anything different.

[410] Once you feel that for yourself, wrong, because there is...

[411] And I think the hardest part is in dating and all these insecurities and these guys, all this stuff that comes together in perfect harmony, it's hard to trust.

[412] yourself because you know we're like yes they're good and we can't we don't we're not going to find that perfect guy and so we start to go back and forth of all right i'll you know we'll compensate in this area and we'll compromise here and you just don't listen to those internal triggers and if i would have listened to mine years ago i wouldn't have gone through everything i went through i was able to get out able to get out safe and alive and went through years of recovery because of what I went through.

[413] And, you know, I look back and it's not like, oh, I feel so bad that I didn't listen, but now I'm thankful because I have that.

[414] Everyone has that same thing who's been in relationships and who has gotten out.

[415] They say, I knew something was wrong.

[416] I felt it at some point.

[417] And everyone has that.

[418] And that's where it is.

[419] And that's that same word, like if I could tell anyone.

[420] And I've told some other, I was in a support group after for a while, because what I was in was really bad and I thought I was a Christian and you make, you know, commitments and you compromise and you see the person for the better and then it just gets so far into it that it becomes normal.

[421] Yeah.

[422] And it's like once you get into that point, it's like, man, you're doomed.

[423] It's going to take a lot.

[424] That's why all these people don't leave, right?

[425] The abusers keep, the abuse keep going back to the abuser.

[426] So it's like, listen to that gut feeling is there for a reason and you never question it.

[427] just get out.

[428] The gift of fear.

[429] Right.

[430] Yeah.

[431] Thank you so much.

[432] It was really nice talking to you.

[433] I'm sorry.

[434] It was under such weird circumstances.

[435] Not at all, yeah.

[436] Sarah, do you feel better?

[437] Oh, yeah.

[438] Good.

[439] No, it was very helpful.

[440] It really, yeah.

[441] I can't imagine, like, anything else I would want to know because I'm, you know, moving on with life at this point.

[442] I'm moving back home to Cali in three months, so try not to date the same guys off of of Hinge when I get up there, okay?

[443] Yeah, okay.

[444] Maybe I'll send you messages to be like, hey, it might be a good idea.

[445] Double screaming process.

[446] I was going to say we can vet them out.

[447] Seriously.

[448] Well, you guys have a great day and feel free to call her text anytime.

[449] Thank you so much.

[450] Good luck with all your exams.

[451] Thank you.

[452] Yes.

[453] All right.

[454] Have a good one.

[455] Bye.

[456] Bye.

[457] As I've shared before, the outpouring of love, encouragement, and bravery of our listeners has been incredibly moving and inspiring.

[458] I'm so excited to share that the next season of this podcast will share survivor stories of all kinds.

[459] Emotional abuse and coercive control happens in many different environments, cultures, religions, and relationships.

[460] And the next season will expose these insidious toxic relationships and the diversity of recovery that comes from such experiences.

[461] If you're interested in sharing your story, please go to Something Was Wrong .com click on the submissions tab.

[462] I am so excited to announce that we will be having our first ever something was wrong live.

[463] This will be a podcast recording and meet and greet in Sacramento.

[464] This will be an intimate live podcast recording giving a behind -the -scenes look, Q &A, and discussion of all things something was wrong.

[465] Sarah, Alyssa, and myself will take the stage alongside a panel of experts in the fields of abuse and mental health.

[466] We couldn't be more excited and we hope to see you there.

[467] So grab your weird podcast friend and join us at B Street Theater in Midtown Sacramento on Saturday, August 24th from 7 to 9 p .m. Head to Something Was Wrong .com slash events.

[468] I'm also extremely honored to share that on April 26th, Something Was Wrong won podcast of the year at the Iris Awards.

[469] The Iris Awards are an annual recognition of individual achievements, collective creativity and impactful work on the internet.

[470] I was incredibly shocked and amazed that my little self -produced podcast was nominated alongside other incredibly talented podcasters, including big names like Dax Shepard and Jen Hatmaker.

[471] Like, what is life?

[472] I wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you that nominated and voted for something was wrong.

[473] We couldn't have won without you.

[474] Here's a clip of my outer body experience of a speech.

[475] I did my best to edit out all of the swearing, but as you may have noticed this far into the podcast, I become a bit filterless during times of excitement.

[476] Turns out when you're convinced you're going to lose and you skip dinner and then drink five glasses of cupcake vineyard sparkling wine, you can get a little F -wordy.

[477] And the winner of the Iris Award for Podcast of the Year is Tiffany Reese, something was wrong.

[478] Be a professional Tiffany, oh my God, what was I thinking?

[479] That would never happen.

[480] I really want to thank my husband, Michael, who literally rescued me from my life and started a new one with me. It's the best I could ever ask for.

[481] And for my kids who put up with me ignoring them on Sundays so I could edit this podcast.

[482] Then I'm going to keep buying you guilt, and I hope you're fine with that and one day you'll forgive me for those six months where I was just like dead on Sundays and you had to rely on your dad and we know what that means okay I want to think is there going to be like a band that plays okay okay okay I want to thank holy I want to thank Sarah that the podcast is about she's amazing and she inspires me every day to share more about myself and my friend Alyssa who introduced us and cheered me on and helped yeah for that friend who is in your group text that is pumping you up every day.

[483] You are the best kind of women and those are the people I want to be friends with.

[484] So if you're like that, come find me. We'll be best friends.

[485] Okay.

[486] Oh my God.

[487] I want to thank Jill Krause for contacting me and believing me before an episode was even out and was like, I believe in you and I want to support this project.

[488] And thank to Liz Porter, who's also here, for sponsoring the podcast and just being such an amazing support system.

[489] The reason I wanted to tell this story is that one in three high school girls in the United States experience either physical or sexual violence or both, and emotional abuse is even more common and difficult to measure.

[490] Women ages 18 to 24 experience the highest rates of intimate partner violence and psychological abuse.

[491] I just wrote a note to myself, you are okay, at the bottom of the snow card oh my god i'm up here so long i'm so sorry i took 10 years to get here though so like you're fine okay okay you guys 11 months ago i just life was not good 2018 was a and mercury was in retrograde like so many times it was insane and i i fell into the deepest depression and i thought i was a failure and i thought i literally said to my husband And what if I never feel successful again?

[492] Well, fuck you, imposter syndrome, because I have a trophy now.

[493] Okay.

[494] And making this story help bring me back to life.

[495] And I can't be here without all of you because you are an amazing community of empowering women.

[496] And I am so lucky to know each and every one of you.

[497] And if I don't know you yet, like, we're dancing.

[498] You're not even prepared for what I look like on the dance floor, first of all.

[499] Okay.

[500] Okay.

[501] I want to thank Laura and Carrie.

[502] You're amazing.

[503] Thank you so much for everything you do.

[504] Thank you for validating us and the last thing I want to say is just if you're sitting on an idea and you're thinking I want to do that, but I don't know how.

[505] You'll figure it out.

[506] That's what YouTube is for.

[507] I didn't know anything.

[508] I just want podcast of the year off YouTube video tutorials for free y 'all.

[509] Like you can do anything.

[510] So please do that thing and you will be here next year.

[511] So do that thing.

[512] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[513] All of the music this season is by the band Ladrags.

[514] A special thank you to Sarah, her family and friends, for participating in this series.

[515] Check out Sarah's personal blog, Space and Purpose, linked in the show notes.

[516] Thank you to Alyssa and Ryan Doyle for their time, support, and hype.

[517] Shout out to my husband Michael and our three amazing children for cheering me on.

[518] free step of the way.

[519] Subscribe now and follow the hashtag.

[520] Something Was Wrong Pod on Instagram.

[521] If you like something was wrong and you're not a troll, please consider leaving a five -star review and sharing the podcast with anything that you've ever met.

[522] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 Safe.

[523] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[524] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music.

[525] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[526] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[527] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[528] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[529] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[530] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[531] Was it a crime of passion?

[532] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[533] This was clearly an intentional act.

[534] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[535] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[536] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[537] Everyone had an opinion.

[538] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[539] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[540] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[541] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[542] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.