Armchair Anonymous: Betrayal

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous.

[4] I'm Dax Shepard.

[5] I'm joined by Monica, which we now know means unique and solitary.

[6] And to advise and alone.

[7] An advisor, Padman.

[8] Today, we are talking about a juicy topic without repeating myself because I think I did applaud everyone who did call in for this one, but very impressed by people who submitted for this one.

[9] Betrayal.

[10] Tell us about a time you betrayed someone you love.

[11] It'd be very easy to call up and talk about a time that you were betrayed.

[12] Yep.

[13] Who doesn't want to complain about that?

[14] Who doesn't want to be a victim?

[15] Right.

[16] We love being victims.

[17] But to say that you betrayed someone is very, I find a great honor in it.

[18] It's really brave, yeah.

[19] And I hope cathartic for anyone listening who's obviously, we've all made mistakes.

[20] And if you haven't yet, you will make a mistake.

[21] And it's nice to hear you're not alone.

[22] Ding, ding, ding, you're not a Monica.

[23] You're not, and you will not advise anyone.

[24] If you're not making mistakes and you're not engaged.

[25] Yeah.

[26] It's the only way to learn.

[27] It's the only way.

[28] I've betrayed a lot of people.

[29] I'll just say that.

[30] Me too.

[31] I've betrayed some people.

[32] Some people.

[33] Yeah.

[34] You've got more work to do.

[35] You're going to catch me. You got to pick up your drinking.

[36] That's step one.

[37] You really want to get into betrayal business?

[38] That's a great first step.

[39] Overconsume.

[40] I'll consider it.

[41] All right.

[42] I love you and I love the armchairs who shared these incredibly brave stories about betrayal.

[43] So please enjoy betrayal.

[44] I'm going to keep on shining.

[45] Hello?

[46] Hi.

[47] Hi.

[48] How are you?

[49] Oh, so good.

[50] How are you?

[51] I'm so good.

[52] I'm really happy to be talking to you guys.

[53] This is awesome.

[54] First of all, can I use your real name or should I use a code name?

[55] You can call me Nick.

[56] That's fine.

[57] Okay.

[58] So, Nick, I think this is one of the braver prompts to have answered because it's really kind of owning some responsibility.

[59] Unless yours is extreme and you had no choice.

[60] Like, betray this person or we kill Manhattan.

[61] Assuming it wasn't.

[62] that situation.

[63] No, there definitely was some responsibility on my part.

[64] Well, so I just commend you because I think this would be one of the harder ones to share about.

[65] And that a lot of people have betrayed someone they love and keep a secret.

[66] Yeah.

[67] It's definitely a topic that I've talked with about too many people before and hopefully I can get through it without being too much of a wreck with you guys.

[68] Okay.

[69] Let's hear it.

[70] All right, set the scene for us.

[71] Who does it involve?

[72] So it involves me and my dad, actually.

[73] My parents were divorced between seventh and eighth grade.

[74] seventh and eighth grade that's a tricky time man yeah it was weird i did not like my time in junior high that's for sure i think that's common yeah honestly i don't know anybody that might have liked that time me my favorite year my life seventh grade yes but very rare i recognize it's very rare he peaked really early so yeah it's the only time in my life i thought i was really good looking right now i mean what about now you're pretty good looking right now well thank you i think you're really good looking you've got a very rugged maybe you could send us some picks and you can make the next year's calendar oh possibly okay it's a big deal we can arrange that Okay, so my parents got divorced.

[75] It was pretty ugly.

[76] I ended up moving out, living with my mom.

[77] And for the longest time, I had this relationship with my dad that was hit or a mess.

[78] He had tattoos all over, huge biker, really rugged kind of guy, actually.

[79] Ding, ding, ding.

[80] There you go.

[81] Ding, ding, ding.

[82] I was hoping we would run into one of those during this.

[83] I always wanted to be a really good friend to him, and we just kind of never connected on that level, unfortunately.

[84] This is like three or four months after the divorce that did finalize and we moved out.

[85] My mom needed to go over to his house to pick up.

[86] some papers to get off of his credit.

[87] He was racking up credit cards in her name and just max him all out.

[88] Big mess.

[89] So we go over there to get the papers and my mom sends me in first because she didn't want to go in and deal with his bullshit.

[90] So I go in, ask him for the papers.

[91] And if you can imagine, he's sitting in the living room between the coffee table and the couch.

[92] But he's like on the floor.

[93] So it was like having dinner at the coffee table.

[94] Oh, I know it well.

[95] I do it every day.

[96] Yeah.

[97] So I go in and ask him, and he's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

[98] I don't have these papers.

[99] Tell her, and she goes in, and I can see everything in the living room because there's these two big windows that go from floor to ceiling.

[100] I'm sitting in the front seat of the car, old school Ford Explorer.

[101] She walks in, and all of a sudden, I see my dad pick up a gun.

[102] No. Oh, my gosh.

[103] He picks up off the floor and points it at her.

[104] So, like, my dad had always told me when I was a kid, you know, I'd never point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it.

[105] So I'm sitting there thinking my dad's about to shoot my mom in cold blood.

[106] Oh, thank God that didn't happen.

[107] She comes back to the car and she tells me what happened.

[108] Was dad an addict of any variety?

[109] Was he a party animal in addition to being a biker and a heavily tattooed person?

[110] Yeah, actually.

[111] He was an alcoholic until the day he died.

[112] Yeah.

[113] Had he ever done this to your mom before that you just hadn't seen?

[114] I hadn't seen it at the time.

[115] I was told stories later that there had been some dicey incidents, but they kept it from us.

[116] Yeah, they're protecting you, quote.

[117] Yep.

[118] I have an older brother who is a year and a half older than me real close.

[119] He was going through a lot of the same stuff I was going through.

[120] He wasn't there in this instance, though.

[121] So after that, fast forward five months, my mom files a restraining order against my dad because of what happened.

[122] And there's a court hearing to go over what happened that day.

[123] I was asked to testify to what I saw.

[124] And I remember there was something that my mom and her lawyer were really pushing was whatever you decide.

[125] It's your choice.

[126] We're not making you do this.

[127] This is something that you need to decide for yourself.

[128] And I chose to take the stand and testify.

[129] I was in court that day.

[130] And I remember just saying what I saw, how I remembered it.

[131] And I remember the lawyer cross -examining me like I was on an episode of SVU or something.

[132] Yeah, at 11.

[133] I know, right?

[134] I just remember the look on my dad's face when that was happening, like his youngest son, up on a stand testifying against him for something that he did most likely while hammered.

[135] He probably doesn't even remember.

[136] I couldn't tell if he was angry.

[137] The only thing I could really tell was that he had felt really betrayed.

[138] Oh, man. And that's why I wanted to write into you guys.

[139] Yeah.

[140] Thanks for sharing that.

[141] Yeah, that's a wild one.

[142] You know, having not been there, I have to imagine that what he felt was extreme shame.

[143] I mean, he must have been aware of the fact that his actions put his 11 -year -old in a situation where, yeah, he's on SVU, which no 11 -year -old should be.

[144] And probably just in the harsh light of day going, fuck, here I am in this course.

[145] courtroom and I did this thing and now my son's in this position and what dad doesn't want his son to look up to him.

[146] Also, any, quote, man would want their son to grow up to be someone who protects the women in their lives, which is what you did.

[147] So if he had any other takeaway than being proud of you for trying to protect your mom, then that's, you know, really on him.

[148] That's a really good point.

[149] And thinking through the rest of my life, that makes a lot of sense because I am very protective of the women in my life.

[150] Same.

[151] I know you definitely are.

[152] Yeah.

[153] What was your relationship with your dad, like, going forward?

[154] So he passed away the day after my 25th birthday, so I'm 30 now, so about five years ago.

[155] And the relationship from the time I testified till the day he died was basically just, I would get drunken voicemails from him, kind of talking smack of my mom or trying to get on my good side to have a relationship.

[156] Just it would go back and forth, like really all over the place.

[157] I ignored it for the longest time.

[158] I never really gave him a chance.

[159] Yeah.

[160] to reconcile.

[161] And when you shared your story about you and your dad on the Father's Day episode, it was really tugging on my heartstrings because you had a chance to turn things around with him and have a relationship with him towards the rest of his life.

[162] And I never gave him that chance.

[163] Well, but Nick, my dad earned that chance with me. He ended up being 25 years sober.

[164] It takes both people.

[165] I mean, that is why your mom had to leave him.

[166] You can't love someone into taking care of themselves or being accountable or any of those things.

[167] If anything, I have guilt over my dad because I could have had a better takeaway earlier.

[168] He had been sober for a really long time.

[169] I could just continue to be disappointed in who he was for a myriad of reasons.

[170] Mostly out of loyalty to my mom, I guess, in some weird way.

[171] But regardless, my dad so earned that.

[172] And I would have definitely did what you did.

[173] And also, if he died when you were 25, you're also hardly an adult at 20.

[174] And it's the parent's job to be consistent and to be predictable.

[175] When someone in public that we all love does something heinous and people kind of go down fighting for that person.

[176] I don't know.

[177] You've seen it with Cosby.

[178] People are just like, nope, I don't care what proof you give to me. I loved them.

[179] And I just think from my childhood and clearly the one you had, it's like we get really hardwired to be loyal to these people because we love them.

[180] And then there are only source of love.

[181] But the price tag that comes with it is we got to overlook all these things.

[182] And I think that's why so many of us are so conditioned.

[183] to accept someone no matter how they are.

[184] And I think it's reflective of just how many wacky childhoods we've all had.

[185] Yeah, you love somebody so much unconditionally and you're blind.

[186] I remember there was a moment when it kind of switched for me. The moment I saw my dad do that, that kind of just all went out the window.

[187] Of course.

[188] That's a survival mechanism.

[189] Yeah, I'm willing to put conditions on my love, which is you point a gun at my mom's face.

[190] Yeah.

[191] I'm going to go ahead and stop loving you because why would, and I be next?

[192] Why won't you be next?

[193] You know, it's shocking to me he didn't kill himself, to be honest.

[194] You know, shortly after the restraining order, the police confiscated most of his weapons.

[195] I know he kept a few.

[196] I actually inherited one after he passed away, but most of them got destroyed.

[197] So that might have something to do with it.

[198] What was your brother's relationship with him like?

[199] So I have two older brothers, actually.

[200] The closest one is my full brother.

[201] And then there's an older one who's in his 40s who was with my dad and another woman.

[202] So the closest one will, he He was very close, and I always envied that, because I was always really close to my mom, even before all this, and still am to this day.

[203] The divorce was really, really hard for him, more so than me, because on top of him being close with my father, he didn't see that experience.

[204] And I think for the longest time, he didn't really believe me. He was like 13, so it was still very malleable, vulnerable to what's going on in the world.

[205] That drove a rift between us for a very long time.

[206] And just in the last five or 10 years, we've become much closer, and I really love the relationship that we have together.

[207] I had that too with my brother.

[208] My brother is five years older than me, and he had eight years of memories of riding motorcycles with my dad in the backyard and having a dad.

[209] And I didn't have any.

[210] So it's not like I missed it.

[211] I think he always wanted them to get back together in some way in his mind.

[212] I just didn't have that to even pine for.

[213] So he often would be more critical of my disdain for our dad.

[214] And then I'd be critical of him for not being fully embracing of our mother.

[215] And then, you know, now that we're older, I think we were both wrong.

[216] They were both very complicated.

[217] to people.

[218] Yeah.

[219] Well, listen, I hate to break it to you, Nick, but this isn't a story of betrayal.

[220] This is a story of loyalty to your mother, to the truth.

[221] And I think it's very, again, there's a bad word for it, but I think it's very manly that you would come to your mom's protection at 11.

[222] I like it.

[223] What can we say instead of manly?

[224] It is brave.

[225] Yeah.

[226] Yeah.

[227] But he wants his biker dad to tell him he's manly, so I'm telling him he's manly.

[228] Yeah, I wouldn't have, I would have minded that when he was around.

[229] I don't know if you would have been able to say it, but thank you.

[230] Well, you were more brave than he could be.

[231] He had tattoos and bikes to make him look and feel brave, but you really did it.

[232] Yeah, that's true.

[233] Do you write with any gangs?

[234] He was a very vivid storyteller.

[235] Sure, sure.

[236] Oh, addicts.

[237] A romantic.

[238] Oh, God, he was such a womanizer.

[239] I don't want to get me started there.

[240] Yeah.

[241] Lately, I've been trying to think more about what his mindset was like, because I always just think about how he treated me and treated the people around but I never thought until recently about what was going on in his head, like what his life was like.

[242] Yeah.

[243] Well, I'm going to make a prediction, Nick, you're a very sweet, good -looking boy, and you're going to have little sweet, good -looking boys of your own, and the whole thing's going to flip for you.

[244] As hard as it will be to have compassion for your dad, he was the loser.

[245] I don't know if you already have kids or not.

[246] Not yet.

[247] Wait until you have a kid, and they're 11, and you go, wow, I got to imagine pulling out of this person's life for the rest of their life, and what pain that would cause me. it's more severe on the other side of it so all these generations before us no one woke up and decided to be a terrible person i think everyone's a victim of some bad circumstance i can't wait to have children honestly i want to be that dad that's like the kids are so annoyed by just because she's constantly like poking and probably like many funny jokes and just doing dad stuff yes sir monica might have some eggs that need fertilizing here in the near future soon i'm gonna have a whole batch of eggs in the freezer so you know i don't I don't just keep that in mind.

[248] Keep it in the boiler pot or whatever they say.

[249] Oh, you guys are making me blush.

[250] Before we sign off, my girlfriend, Leslie, is one of the biggest arms cherries ever.

[251] Is it okay if she comes on and just says hi really quick?

[252] Of course.

[253] Hi.

[254] We're in love with Nick.

[255] Oh, that might work out.

[256] Yeah, isn't he the best?

[257] Oh, my God.

[258] He's so cute.

[259] And you know he kind of looks like, who's the guy in shame, the gorgeous guy?

[260] Fastbender.

[261] Oh, Fastbender.

[262] Yeah.

[263] way fast bender yeah i'm seeing some fast bender wow i'm really blushing now he's here to flatter it's so nice to meet you we're both flattered that you like yeah thank you i've been a loyal listener love you guys it's what i look forward to every what you have like four days of episodes now we're working towards 24 -7 we want people to quit their jobs and just listen to us we'll be there yeah all right well we wish you guys both so much luck thank you so much much, guys.

[264] All right.

[265] Nice meeting you.

[266] Take care.

[267] Hi.

[268] Oh, my God.

[269] Is that really you guys?

[270] It's CGI.

[271] What should we call you?

[272] Let's use your stripper name.

[273] Oh, well, see, now that would be Buffy Hummingbird.

[274] Oh, wow.

[275] I don't think we can use it.

[276] That's going to take us out.

[277] People would be like, we couldn't possibly believe anything Buffy humming, humming, how many bird says?

[278] I guess we could call you Buffy, though.

[279] You can just say Sarah.

[280] Sarah.

[281] Sarah.

[282] Love it, Sarah.

[283] I'm going to write that down because I have a bad memory.

[284] And I had to write it down because I didn't want to, because it's not my name.

[285] So I was like, Sarah from Massachusetts.

[286] Okay.

[287] Set the table for us.

[288] Who does it involve?

[289] Yeah.

[290] So this happened about five or six years ago.

[291] I had been divorced for a two or three years before.

[292] So I've been divorced a long time.

[293] But my very best friend was just awesome about being there for me during divorce.

[294] whole thing.

[295] And her kids were older.

[296] Mine were younger, but she was just like very motherly.

[297] And so she would pick them up if I had to work, you know, just great.

[298] So my ex -husband was getting married.

[299] And so she threw me a like divorce not getting married party.

[300] So there were a big group of us, a bunch of my other girlfriends.

[301] And she'd been divorced a while.

[302] I hadn't met her boyfriend.

[303] He comes over that night and we all become really good friends.

[304] Then I was studying for the LSAT.

[305] And she was.

[306] she was just great.

[307] The two of them would make something and they would be like, come over, you can stay upstairs and study, we'll bring you food up.

[308] It was just really super loving.

[309] They had their own stuff, but they were just really good to me. She was the kind of person who, like, I left a sweater over there once and she dropped it off.

[310] And when I got it back, it had had a hole in the rim.

[311] And it was sewn.

[312] And I was like, dude, did you sew my sweater?

[313] Like, I literally was going to give it to Goodwill.

[314] And she was like, yeah, You love that sweater.

[315] Yeah.

[316] That's nice.

[317] Basically, that sets the stage for like, that's the kind of love and friendship that there was.

[318] So she was taking her child back to college.

[319] She had a dog.

[320] She said, would you come over and dog sit?

[321] I'll make food.

[322] You can study.

[323] You'll be here for the weekend.

[324] I see a little person.

[325] Can you see my kid?

[326] Yeah, I know that.

[327] And that's a teenage person who I was actually thinking I don't want them to know this story.

[328] Sure, sure, sure.

[329] Awful.

[330] So my kids were with their dad.

[331] We did a week on and a week off.

[332] I was like, oh, it'd be awesome.

[333] Plus, I would have a whole house to myself, which I did not.

[334] At the time, I had a roommate.

[335] So it was like, I could also get away.

[336] So her boyfriend of a long time now stops by on the way home from work.

[337] And I've been studying that day.

[338] He was like, hey, I just wanted to check on you.

[339] Did she leave us some food, whatever?

[340] And I was like, oh, yeah, come on in.

[341] So we're heating up food.

[342] I was drinking then.

[343] So we start drinking.

[344] And.

[345] Then he's like, I got to call my guy.

[346] I never did drugs or anything like that growing up.

[347] And I don't know if it was like empty nesters gone wild or whatever.

[348] So very first time I tried cocaine.

[349] Oh, wow.

[350] And so then we stayed up through the night.

[351] A couple of other people came over.

[352] Did the girlfriend know that he did Coke?

[353] Yeah.

[354] Oh, okay.

[355] It was like the next morning we hadn't slept and been drinking and drinking and drinking ended up sleeping together.

[356] I shouldn't say sleeping together.

[357] We had sex.

[358] And this is the absolute.

[359] it actually makes me upset that like in her bed yeah yeah we're just like oh my god so stupid so stupid and essentially a few months later and it was a shitty couple of months because i was so comfortable with them and it was like such an ease and then there was no comfort anymore we found out that his son who at the time was like 20 maybe had actually come over during that time.

[360] Okay.

[361] So there was a witness.

[362] Yeah, and he told her.

[363] He told her.

[364] Wow.

[365] Not her son, his son.

[366] His son.

[367] We went through that whole thing of like trying to deny it.

[368] And then, oh, it was the drugs.

[369] And this is, oh, it was the drugs.

[370] And oh, my God.

[371] It was the worst thing that's, it didn't happen to me. I did it.

[372] It was the worst thing that I have ever done in my life for sure.

[373] And this, I'm imagining becomes part of the reason you eventually get sober though this is one of the bits of wreckage that you go oh yeah actually yeah i didn't think about this you know i lost all my friends because it's a small town and i was like what am i like who am i i've been so in pain and so distraught and the booze wasn't working anymore and all of it right so i go to a meeting not wanting to there was a woman and i swear to you she was from new york city and she was drinking a lecroy and that was my criteria for this woman needs to be my sponsor.

[374] And I go and I basically do like a fourth step to her immediately after the meeting.

[375] I'm bawling and I'm like, I slept with my best friend's boyfriend and I don't even know why.

[376] And I didn't even like him and it wasn't my type.

[377] And she loved me and I loved her and I just destroyed everything.

[378] And I blew up my entire life and my entire friendship group.

[379] And I remember she just had the calmest face.

[380] And she goes, well, yeah, that's what we do.

[381] Mm -hmm.

[382] Everything's got a lot better system.

[383] But yeah, and I don't know why I rode in.

[384] No, I think there's a very, first of all, I have fucked people's girlfriends that I love.

[385] It's a source of great shame.

[386] It's a more common story than we want it to be.

[387] Yeah, act like it is.

[388] But, I mean, certainly where I grew up, it was happening a lot to a lot of different people.

[389] And there's just so many layers to it.

[390] There's the thing you're owning, which is the betrayal.

[391] and that's heartbreaking.

[392] But then there's also the obvious esteem issue you had at the time.

[393] You were wrestling with alcoholism.

[394] You had been divorced.

[395] You were feeling terrible.

[396] Someone was validating you and you were apt to regulate your insides with external things as you were already doing.

[397] And this is highly predictable.

[398] And one of my favorite sayings comes to mine, which is I did the things they say I did, but I'm not the thing they say I am.

[399] It's like, yeah, you had a shitty day.

[400] fuck someone over.

[401] That's not your homeostasis.

[402] That's not your MO.

[403] It's not your identity.

[404] Yeah, it's not who you are.

[405] It's a regrettable thing.

[406] That honestly, probably fast forwarded and maybe saved worse wreckage.

[407] You just don't know.

[408] Did you drink longer and kill someone driving?

[409] Did you, you know?

[410] Yeah, exactly.

[411] It's so true.

[412] Yeah.

[413] If you knew all things, this could have been the easiest path to sobriety and less wreckage.

[414] It's hard to know.

[415] Yeah.

[416] Not to take her inventory, I never met her, but this woman loves addicts.

[417] And she wants to fix addicts.

[418] And when you take in straight dog, some of them bite.

[419] That's her part of the equation.

[420] Yeah, the fact that she sews the sweater is a beautiful thing, of course.

[421] But it is really indicative of a personality, someone who needs to fix and nurture.

[422] It's a very codependent personality.

[423] That's such good insight.

[424] So, like, everyone kind of finds who they need to find to accelerate the things that end up.

[425] I have to imagine that relationship didn't end perfectly with her and him, or maybe they're still together.

[426] I don't know, but.

[427] They're married.

[428] They are.

[429] Okay, well, okay, they worked it all out.

[430] I was done wrong on that one.

[431] We've all been there.

[432] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[433] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[434] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspectable, Expecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[435] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[436] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[437] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[438] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[439] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[440] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[441] What's up, guys?

[442] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[443] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[444] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[445] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[446] And I don't mean just friends.

[447] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[448] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[449] this is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[450] After getting sober, I was bugging my sponsor to death because I was like, she needs to know how sorry I am.

[451] She needs to know that's not who I am on the inside.

[452] And you get through the steps and there's an immense step.

[453] And I was like excited about it, you know?

[454] Sure.

[455] Yeah.

[456] And she was like, yeah, the amends that you make to her is to never dawn her doorstep again.

[457] Yeah.

[458] Living amends.

[459] And that's true, which is also why I was trying to be really careful about this because I don't talk about it, but it was the most significant betrayal of my life.

[460] Yeah.

[461] I'm going to just as a counterpoint to the, I did the things they say I did.

[462] I'm not the person they say I am.

[463] The other one I like, which is the opposite, which is when you come to A, there's a saying in there, which is, I wanted people to judge me for my intentions, but they were judging me for my actions, which is, that's another part.

[464] It's like, you can say you're this person or that, but if we just add up your actions, now it's starting to look more, you know, it's like somewhere in between that.

[465] It is.

[466] Did you ever.

[467] Did you ever.

[468] feel like, why does he get to continue to have this?

[469] Of course you felt like that, right?

[470] And especially at the beginning, because we were all divorced and they were dating.

[471] Even though dating seriously, they weren't living together.

[472] I was like, oh, I'm the one that's going to get picked between a boyfriend and like your best friend.

[473] I'm getting pissed.

[474] Screw him.

[475] Like you're getting the forgiveness.

[476] Exactly.

[477] Yeah.

[478] You know, if I'm really honest about it, I did a lot of manipulating around that too.

[479] I was like, look at him.

[480] This is terrible that he did this.

[481] No, but your brain is trying to make it okay for you.

[482] Yeah.

[483] And to keep her because she's such an important part of my life, an important part of my kid's lives.

[484] She's always been so wonderful and kind to them and always hugs them and loves them and never says anything.

[485] She's a damn good person.

[486] Yeah.

[487] Loving.

[488] I've had twice one really good friend slept with a girl I was in love with.

[489] that one didn't go well but then i had another one really significant someone telling me they had been in a relationship with someone that i'd been with forever and i got to say i was sober the second time what i immediately saw was oh fuck this could be me telling them because i have done this you have more empathy now yes i know that i didn't hate the person i did that too i was a shithead and selfish but it was no reflection of my love so you can also come out of it with hopefully some more grace that you can extend to other people because people are not going to do what you hoped they would do in some fashion or another your chance to go oh but for the grace of god there go i could be telling this person this that's not me i think sobriety really released me from all the judgment that i had not only about myself all the time but about other people because i can always listen and think to myself hmm i could have done that oh yeah yeah yeah that same thing is i'm bawling crying my first meeting and she's like yeah that's what we do she wasn't like the way all our close friends were like oh my god i could you be so disgusting and i feel like i can give that now to people when they say stuff i'm always like yeah that's what we do yeah yeah us humans man we're flawed well sarah i really appreciate you sharing that story with us yeah and i'm so happy for you four years of sobriety is so impossible there's a liquor store every 30 feet they're begging us to drink Thanks so much.

[490] Thanks so much.

[491] Yeah, great meaning you, Sarah.

[492] Okay, we love you.

[493] Thanks a lot.

[494] Have a good one.

[495] Hello.

[496] Hi.

[497] How are you?

[498] How are you?

[499] You're in a hotel room.

[500] I am in a hotel room.

[501] I'm in Washington, D .C. Are you in witness protection?

[502] No, not yet.

[503] Okay, not yet.

[504] Do we use your real name or a fake name?

[505] We'll use a fake name.

[506] Okay, great.

[507] Do you have a favorite fake name?

[508] Oh, my God.

[509] That's a good question.

[510] George?

[511] George.

[512] We'll do Molly.

[513] Molly.

[514] That would be easy for us.

[515] We have a very, very good friend named Molly.

[516] And you're a doctor?

[517] I am.

[518] Ph .D. Not MD.

[519] Okay.

[520] Can I still show you something on my arm?

[521] Body.

[522] I know.

[523] I'm nervous about your wrist.

[524] I got my PhD at UT Austin.

[525] Oh, you lucky brat.

[526] How fun.

[527] I know.

[528] Yeah.

[529] I lived in Austin for 10 years.

[530] Oh, why did you ever leave for job?

[531] Yeah.

[532] Are you a paleontologist?

[533] I am not.

[534] And I'm not an anthropologist.

[535] apologist either.

[536] So it's always fun to hear you guys talk about Austin.

[537] It always makes you so happy.

[538] Oh, it's so dreamy.

[539] Okay, I just want to say I'm very proud of anyone that responded to this prompt because implicit in it is some ownership over some guilt.

[540] I think it's brave and I just want to say thanks for being willing.

[541] Yeah.

[542] Yeah, of course.

[543] I have listened to you every single episode that you guys have ever done.

[544] You're always so brave.

[545] You're always authentic and genuine.

[546] So, you know, I just wanted to shine that light right back at you.

[547] Oh, thank you.

[548] I almost want to end that.

[549] there so I can be in a good mood for the next 40 minutes.

[550] Okay, so set the stage first.

[551] Who are the characters involved in this story?

[552] Sure.

[553] So it was 1999.

[554] I was dating an artist named Denny.

[555] I was 23.

[556] Fast math, Dax, you and I are the same age.

[557] Yes.

[558] Oh, yay.

[559] So Denny and I were badly in love.

[560] And he was free -spirited, fun, sweet, spontaneous, and loved to travel internationally.

[561] I was straight a serious sheltered nerd who had never left the country.

[562] Yeah.

[563] So he threw caution to the winds on an almost daily basis, and I wanted to throw up thinking about, you know, anything outside my comfort zone.

[564] Yeah.

[565] So cut to my college roommate, Mary, asked me to travel throughout Europe with her.

[566] And I was like, oh, my God, no. Staying hostels?

[567] Yeah.

[568] Like, that sounds so scary.

[569] and overwhelming and Denny got so excited because he just thought of me seeing the world for the first time.

[570] He made me feel brave enough to do it.

[571] Like his excitement gave me the courage to be braver than I would have and really step into like a bigger life for myself.

[572] So I was planning the trip with Mary and Denny says, hey, listen, I have family in Italy.

[573] They'll totally hook you up.

[574] You can stay with them and you're going to love it.

[575] They're so awesome.

[576] And that was the problem.

[577] Because I did love it, and they were so awesome.

[578] Uh -huh, especially one of the young gentlemen.

[579] Oh, and, oh, yeah.

[580] A cousin.

[581] You're so, so close.

[582] So, Mary and I travel all over Europe, and then we stop at this small town on the Adriatic Sea, and Denny's cousin, Fabio.

[583] Oh, boy, I mean.

[584] Which is the one name that I haven't changed for this entire thing, because I just thought that would be blasphemous to not call him Fabio.

[585] So Fabio shows up at the train station to pick us up with two friends, Silas and Marco.

[586] Their English was pretty good, but it was also so fun trying to translate everything, you know.

[587] So the five of us hit it off immediately and become fast friends.

[588] We spend the next day together just at the beach.

[589] The next night, Silas and Fabio took my friend and I to a soccer game.

[590] And Marco was the goalie.

[591] And seeing him play that position, like scramble my eggs.

[592] PQs?

[593] Yes, absolutely.

[594] Quakes, though, not quivers.

[595] Quakes, full -blown quakes, yeah.

[596] So as much as I love Denny and I absolutely loved him with all my heart, like I just couldn't stop what I was feeling for Marco.

[597] He was this big sweaty dude with sick thighs.

[598] broad chest and he's just hurtling himself in front of the net which seems so abnormal right so exotic this sounds to me very primal especially for someone who's a stray day student who stays in the lines yes yeah all of a sudden he wasn't marco he was like king kong swatting you know planes out of the guy sure i want to fuck him i mean my god yeah dax you would love him you should see without her shirt on.

[599] So he was just like a wild alpha gorilla, like protecting his tribe.

[600] And it was the sexiest thing I'd ever seen.

[601] Yeah.

[602] So the next day, Fabio takes me aside and he says, hey, listen, Marco's dad died suddenly two months ago of like a massive heart attack.

[603] And we haven't seen him smile.

[604] Like we haven't seen him smile since then.

[605] We haven't seen him laugh since then.

[606] But when he's around you, it's like we have our friend back.

[607] Oh, my God.

[608] How are you to?

[609] Yeah.

[610] This isn't, this is the universe conspiring against you at this point.

[611] And of course, like deep down, you know, I'm trying to like justify my behavior.

[612] I'm not betraying Denny.

[613] I'm helping a grieving son.

[614] Of course.

[615] Like, find solace.

[616] Oh, you've got a couple great story starters.

[617] One, you're in another country.

[618] And you're not going back.

[619] There's really no threat here of some long -term issues.

[620] This is happening in a vacuum.

[621] I'm going to be of service to this grieving gorilla.

[622] And also you have this probably voice in you that's like, I never have allowed myself this.

[623] And I want to do it sometime.

[624] I want to be wild.

[625] I deserve this.

[626] Yes, it was just all of those things wrapped up together.

[627] Like, I've never done this before.

[628] And the world, the world seemed so different to me. And then I felt so different to me that everything had just been shaken at that point.

[629] It's safe to say you're high at this point.

[630] Oh, 100 % that feeling that just only travel can really bring you also.

[631] There's also something kind of tricky, which is Fabio is Denny's cousin, right?

[632] Yes.

[633] I was expecting this conversation with Fabio to go like, hey, I saw you pervin out about Marco.

[634] And I'm loyal to my cousin and just keep it clean while you're here, right?

[635] That's where I thought it was going.

[636] But it was the opposite.

[637] it's like you're giving him life please spend time with him yeah and i don't think he was like please hop in the sack with him or anything like that but he's just like oh it's so nice to see him smile again i kept thinking you know like okay what's going on here i wouldn't be here without denny this is denny's cousin this is denny's cousin's best friend what is happening right so the five of us spend a whole like week together going to the beach going for dinner and just getting to know each other And every day, Marco and I just got closer and closer and closer.

[638] So on the last night, after we'd had dinner and after we'd said all of our goodbyes, Marco got on his motorcycle.

[639] Of course, he rides a motorcycle.

[640] I know, right?

[641] And actually, I have to admit this, because it was actually a crotch rocket.

[642] Oh, wow.

[643] That is cool.

[644] It's like a real motorcycle.

[645] I like it.

[646] But it was still super fun and sexy.

[647] So he asked if I wanted to go for a ride.

[648] Oh, okay.

[649] And I just looked right in his eyes and I said, yes, I really do.

[650] Yeah.

[651] I'm the type of girl that wouldn't ride on the back of a motorcycle at home.

[652] You're trying on this European identity.

[653] I was wearing a slinky red dress that I had bought two weeks before in France.

[654] I wasn't wearing a bra.

[655] Oh, yeah.

[656] Bye, bra.

[657] Yeah, like, hey, Europe, bye bra.

[658] And it was the sexiest I ever felt in my entire life, right?

[659] Like this new person was just emerging.

[660] I love this.

[661] I hiked up that dress like over my thighs and I swung my leg over the motorcycle and I still to this day remember the feeling of my right arm coming around and holding his chest and then my left arm coming around and holding his waist and just pressing my breasts and my belly like into his back as tight as I could and like holding myself against him and then squeezing my inner thighs against his outer thighs just to get a really good grip yeah well to be safe yeah I had to be safe I didn't want to fall off my mom would have been so upset and we wrote off and it was the most romantic and magical and perfect night of my entire life and you where did you guys lay together at his house or so that's the thing we never consummated the relationship oh no what we didn't even kiss what then you didn't know betrayal this is not a betrayal well you betrayed yourself you must pine for him do you not want to know what that physical experience would have been like yes of course because oh my good sure sure sure but the reason it was perfect is is that we didn't fully betray Denny.

[662] You just fell in love for a week.

[663] I fell in love for a week.

[664] And I didn't really know about emotional betrayal.

[665] I just kept thinking, don't kiss him, don't have sex with him.

[666] Don't kiss him, don't have sex with him.

[667] Don't kiss him.

[668] Don't have sex with him.

[669] Because if you do that, then you're betraying someone.

[670] You have some splaining to do when you get home.

[671] Yeah.

[672] So we rode around all night on his bike.

[673] He took me to this hill overlooking the ocean.

[674] It was a full moon.

[675] The moon was just, like, bouncing off the water.

[676] And we talked about our hopes and fears and dreams.

[677] At one point, Marco walked in front of me, and he just let out this, like, deep, primal scream.

[678] Oh, my God.

[679] Not like a Howard Dean scream.

[680] No, I want you to know, in my mind, I'm picturing Caldrogo the whole time.

[681] Jason Momoa.

[682] Oh, right?

[683] Like, just perfection.

[684] It was like he was releasing all the anger and all the sadness.

[685] And he came up to me afterwards and he said, you know, it's taken me 27 years.

[686] But I finally met someone who understands me. Oh, this is tasty.

[687] There's something really pure about that.

[688] We were both really sad because, you know, we just kept saying, like, I feel like I just found you.

[689] You know, like, I don't lose you.

[690] It's happening too fast.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And he said for him, it was especially hard.

[693] He's like, I just lost my dad.

[694] And then I found the one thing that brings me happiness again and I have to say goodbye to you too.

[695] Oh, it's a movie.

[696] Did you stay in touch with him?

[697] So we wrote each other one letter, and I still have the letter that he sent.

[698] And one of the lines that he wrote, and it was separated in the paragraph from the other sections of the letter was, everyone has a secret.

[699] You are mine.

[700] Oh, I like it.

[701] Yeah.

[702] Did you marry Denny?

[703] I didn't marry Denny.

[704] No, he found out after I got back, I was mourning when I got back and I wasn't fully present with.

[705] him and I was withholding in a way that I didn't want to be because I loved him so much and I knew that he didn't deserve this.

[706] And if he had done what I had done, I would have heeded his rotting corpse off a cliff, you know, and like never forgiven him.

[707] But I explained to Tim and for weeks just kind of begged him to take me back because I did ultimately love him and thought he was amazing.

[708] And he took me back, but we didn't last for more than a year after that.

[709] He's still great.

[710] He's friends with my older brother.

[711] He's married.

[712] They have a lovely child together.

[713] Do you regret not having the full experience?

[714] Since you paid the price anyway.

[715] Since now you know, exactly.

[716] It's like two things.

[717] I don't regret not consummating it because no night will ever be as magical as time.

[718] Yeah, that's true.

[719] You know, I watch movies and it's like, yeah, that's romantic, but mine was better.

[720] It was so tender and so pure.

[721] And then the other question is, right, do I regret?

[722] doing that to Denny.

[723] He's the one who encouraged me to go on the trip.

[724] He's the one who hooked me up with staying at his cousins.

[725] And part of me wants to say, yeah, I do regret it, you know, because that's the type of person that I think that I am.

[726] Like, I would never want to do anything to hurt someone.

[727] Well, it can be both things.

[728] I don't think the question is, do you not regret hurting Denny at the expense of having that experience?

[729] Like, no, you probably are grateful you had that experience.

[730] And you also feel probably guilty that you hurt Denny.

[731] Yeah.

[732] I don't think it has to be in either or.

[733] Yeah, it's a both and.

[734] If my wife could have the experience you just described in Europe, I want her to.

[735] I don't want her to come home and not be my wife or the mother to my children, but it's one trip on planet Earth.

[736] How much you can live on these little snippets of time.

[737] It's the great juge of being here.

[738] And I would want that for anyone I love.

[739] But even the physical part.

[740] Yeah, I could care less.

[741] He's unique in that.

[742] I know I'm unique in this, but it's not like she'll be damaged from it or a different human being.

[743] It's part of her whole story and she gets to have that.

[744] I love that.

[745] I wish I was more like that.

[746] I am not like that.

[747] It's really, really hard.

[748] Look, I was jealous in high school and this girl fuck someone on spring break.

[749] I lost my marbles over it.

[750] But after that, I was like, okay, I'm done with that emotion.

[751] I don't like it.

[752] It felt terrible.

[753] I'm not going to ever have that expectation of someone again.

[754] I just think everyone's so fucking human and so fallible.

[755] It's not my expectation.

[756] My expectation is you're a good partner.

[757] You communicate with me. I have a lot of expectations you got to meet, but that's just one I let go 30 years ago.

[758] The thing that for me was really hard, I didn't go have that experience and then come back and pop back into our relationship.

[759] Like, hey, that was awesome.

[760] I'm so glad I had that.

[761] You know, let's make out and go have dinner.

[762] Well, but hold on.

[763] So, you know, I was in an open relationship for nine years.

[764] And there was a couple of those moments where she had those weeks.

[765] And yeah, sometimes there was a couple of months where whatever, but this was someone who was my best friend and I wanted to be with forever.

[766] And I could afford a few months.

[767] You could see the long game.

[768] Yes, I could see that a lot of great chemicals were released.

[769] It was a high.

[770] It's not sustainable.

[771] If anything runs its course, it'll be what she and I have ultimately.

[772] And I'm going to bet on the thing she and I have is more tenable.

[773] Not to mention it's like we think about this all the time, what Esther Perel says about one person can't be all the things.

[774] So you can't expect that of yourself and you can't expect that of your partner.

[775] They're going to find other people in this world that fill some of the boxes.

[776] Like, that's just life.

[777] And if you go through it thinking that's not going to happen, I think you're in for some disappointment.

[778] Well, that's a great way to look at.

[779] Like, I look at Kristen as having like 10 boxes.

[780] Is there a dude that can crush three of those boxes for a movie shoot?

[781] Probably.

[782] I have a lot of confidence that I'm checking enough of them.

[783] Yeah.

[784] I don't know if Denny and I had that many boxes.

[785] Yeah.

[786] Yeah.

[787] Well, then I'm really glad you had this experience.

[788] Me too.

[789] What a great story.

[790] I was absolutely titillated.

[791] It was a movie, yeah.

[792] Yeah.

[793] I loved it.

[794] Good.

[795] Well, you guys have entertained me for a year, so I'm glad that I was able to do it for a very short amount of time.

[796] Oh my God.

[797] I love that story, Molly.

[798] Thank you so much for telling it to us.

[799] And good luck in this hotel room you're in.

[800] Yeah.

[801] Can I just say one more thing.

[802] I I genuinely hope that either UT or an Ivy League gives you both doctorates.

[803] Honorary doctorates.

[804] Thank you so much.

[805] Really nice to meet you.

[806] All right.

[807] Have fun in D .C. Bye.

[808] That was great.

[809] I guess since we're on the topic of betrayal, you should know that I pooped in your purse.

[810] You pooped in my purse.

[811] I betrayed the confidence you showed me when you let me your purse.

[812] and I poodyed in it.

[813] You know what?

[814] When you asked me if you could borrow my purse, I knew that was going to happen.

[815] Oh, okay.

[816] So it wasn't a betrayal.

[817] Okay.

[818] It was just a consummation.

[819] I love you.

[820] Love you.

[821] Do you want to sing a tune or something?

[822] We don't have a theme song.

[823] Oh.

[824] Okay, great.

[825] We don't have a thing song for this new show.

[826] So here I go, go, go.

[827] We're going to ask some.

[828] random questions and with the help of armcherry's book and some suggestions on the fly rhyme dish on the flyer rhyme dish enjoy follow armchair expert on the Wondry app Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to every episode of Armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[829] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry. endry .com slash survey.