Jon Bernthal

[0] Hello, my name is John Bernthal, and I feel extraordinarily lucky about being Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] That is really nice.

[2] Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[3] going to be friends.

[4] Hello, welcome to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[5] I had to take a second there before we started because Sona was yelling in the podcast studio.

[6] Because you two are being dicks.

[7] Well, I don't think that's the right energy to start a friendly show that basically is meant for children.

[8] This is a show by children for children.

[9] On an intellectual level, yes.

[10] Exactly.

[11] Sona, you and Gorley were shouting about something and I was just trying to get you to stop talking long enough and shouting so that I could start the program.

[12] That's all.

[13] First of all, it's hard to have a human moment in this room because every time we talk about something fun, you're like, let's record it.

[14] Because I want to capture the essence.

[15] Can't some things just be between us?

[16] Yeah.

[17] No, no. No, it almost be recorded and then monetized.

[18] Filty, filthy riches, rubies, gold.

[19] Yeah.

[20] Well, Sona, you and Gourley were shouting about your eyebrows.

[21] What was that all about?

[22] It was about hair removal.

[23] Right.

[24] I don't want to talk about this because I upset Sona and I feel bad.

[25] Oh, that's nice.

[26] I don't know.

[27] You know what?

[28] I shouldn't have gotten upset.

[29] No, I think you were in the right.

[30] No, that's not true.

[31] I shouldn't, but I reacted.

[32] I always react at a 10 when I should react at like a 2.

[33] But you had reason to react.

[34] And this is how conflict creation is done.

[35] Can we at least let people know what the nature of the disagreement was?

[36] Well, I started off by saying, You know, listen.

[37] I have certain, there's art, what?

[38] Just say it.

[39] I'm a hairy person.

[40] And I have eyebrows that if I don't take care of them, they become a unibrow.

[41] That's just, is that true?

[42] Your eyebrows are beautiful.

[43] That's because Alma shapes them and takes care of them.

[44] Who's Alma?

[45] Alma's my girl.

[46] Oh, she does it with your permission.

[47] It's not like she comes in the night.

[48] You wake up.

[49] Alma!

[50] Oh, she's good.

[51] I wouldn't mind it.

[52] And then Matt says, you also said you have a unibrand.

[53] I was like, oh, do you just take care of it yourself?

[54] And then you said the way you said it.

[55] So what you have, you, your eyebrows would grow together if you didn't intervene?

[56] Yeah, I have what would connect.

[57] Like I wouldn't call it like a London bridge, but it's like a rope bridge.

[58] You know, like it gets connected.

[59] It has a little bit of a sag to it.

[60] It's like a Raiders of the Lost Ark Bridge.

[61] Exactly.

[62] Yes.

[63] It's like a. Actually, it's Temple of Doom.

[64] But let's, you know, go ahead.

[65] All right.

[66] How about the man who would be.

[67] King kind of bridge.

[68] There we go.

[69] Okay, yeah.

[70] With Sean Connery.

[71] And Michael Kane.

[72] Michael Kane.

[73] Oh, and Michael Kane.

[74] Yeah, that's an amazing.

[75] That's a great movie.

[76] I agree.

[77] What year?

[78] What year?

[79] 64.

[80] Of course it is.

[81] Oh, no, much later than that.

[82] I don't know.

[83] That's a movie from the 70s.

[84] Someone check, please.

[85] I'm going to say that's 19, boy, that could be 74.

[86] Raiders of Los Arc. No, no, no. Edwardo.

[87] Edwardo.

[88] Where are you?

[89] The man who would be king.

[90] Now we went from Unibrow's to, I'm going to say 74.

[91] I'll say 73, 1975.

[92] Oh, God.

[93] And your first guest was 64, interesting.

[94] So anyway, you were wrong to, though.

[95] You were wrong also.

[96] Oh, yeah, off my whole year.

[97] But you were so wrong.

[98] Still wrong.

[99] A movie I haven't seen in many years.

[100] I still was able to name the cast.

[101] And Sean Connery in it, who you claim to love, but don't even know the year of one of his great movies.

[102] Anyway, my point is this.

[103] I don't even have eyebrows.

[104] You two are complaining about your eyebrows.

[105] I'm the Dick Gephart of comedy.

[106] Look it up, kids.

[107] It's a funny reference.

[108] Who is Dick Gaphart?

[109] Exactly.

[110] Why can't you guys be better?

[111] Guess what?

[112] 164?

[113] Dick Gepard?

[114] No, I'm one of those guys who have my eyebrows are so faint.

[115] Yeah.

[116] That whenever, this morning I had to do a thing, a friend asked if I would appear on a little short segment with him for a morning show.

[117] And I said, sure.

[118] Eyebrow talk?

[119] No, it wasn't called Eyebrow Talk.

[120] That show's been canceled.

[121] Replaced by Monobrow Corner.

[122] But I went on the show.

[123] and of course they spend the first 10 minutes giving me eyebrows I don't have.

[124] And one of the things is that sometimes they overdo it and I come out of there and it looks like someone has taken two pieces of electrical tape and put them over my eyes.

[125] Groucho.

[126] And yeah, I'm suddenly Groucho marks.

[127] No, not fade done away.

[128] What was, who was the eye?

[129] Joan Crawford, yeah.

[130] So anyway, you were saying Sona and back to the important part that you need constant management of your eyebrows.

[131] Yes.

[132] How often does this woman need to tend to them?

[133] Every four weeks?

[134] I think.

[135] Three or four weeks.

[136] Would you ever want to just let them go just to see what happened?

[137] I did.

[138] I'd like to see that.

[139] During the pandemic.

[140] Really?

[141] Yeah.

[142] And what happened?

[143] Did they just you got crazy?

[144] They just, they were all over the place.

[145] Right.

[146] You probably didn't know when it was raining.

[147] Like they caught all the water.

[148] You just looked at me like, am I okay?

[149] Come on.

[150] Does I go too far?

[151] Help me out, please.

[152] No, no, no. I just was like, you're outside.

[153] And everyone's like, we got to get inside.

[154] It's pouring on you.

[155] You're like, what are you talking about?

[156] It's not raining.

[157] of these giant barriers.

[158] And your friends are huddled under?

[159] Yeah.

[160] That's when you notice people.

[161] Have you ever noticed people?

[162] Don't stare at me. Sona, in a rainstorm, have you ever noticed friends of yours gathering underneath you?

[163] Hello?

[164] I don't want to be a part of this.

[165] Is this thing on?

[166] Why are you getting me to do this?

[167] I apologize.

[168] I know.

[169] And I appreciate that.

[170] That's why I like Matt Moore.

[171] And I'm glad that I captured this moment because this was an argument that was going to go unheard.

[172] by the public.

[173] I'm also glad that I brought back the memory of Dick Gephardt, a famous politician a long time ago who had no eyebrows.

[174] What an incredible thing for me to remember.

[175] Do you wanna say anything to me about that joke about people gathering under my eyebrows when it rains?

[176] I think if you, I think it's a good visual.

[177] I think it's a funny gag.

[178] I think it's a solid joke.

[179] Wait, oh, you wanted an apology.

[180] I do.

[181] Oh, oh, oh, yes.

[182] I'm not asking, rate your joke.

[183] What are you ever gonna not rate your joke?

[184] Edwardo, what did you think about huddling under the eyebrows?

[185] hilarious.

[186] Oh, that guy went Dweido.

[187] But the Friends, the Friends comic was, I thought Gordy made that comic.

[188] What are you doing?

[189] Who do you think you are throwing me under the bus?

[190] You're new here.

[191] I'm talking about a vulnerable situation where I'm hairy and you guys are just making jokes about it.

[192] Well, I kind of can because I have a unibrow.

[193] Yeah.

[194] So I'm not joking.

[195] I'm commiserating.

[196] I see.

[197] You're a victim too.

[198] Yeah.

[199] And that's why we got in a bit of a fight.

[200] Yeah.

[201] That's true.

[202] Yeah.

[203] You don't even have eyebrows.

[204] Loser.

[205] I know.

[206] Matt Smith.

[207] Yeah.

[208] I'm a real dick get part.

[209] I'm telling you it's a funny reference.

[210] Look it up.

[211] If it didn't work the first time, it's not going to work the second or third time.

[212] How do we know it's not working?

[213] I hear so many laughs out there.

[214] This hasn't gone out yet.

[215] It will.

[216] And I hear so many future laughs out there.

[217] People in rental cars all across America are howling at this one.

[218] People on their pods.

[219] What?

[220] Ear buds.

[221] Oh, God.

[222] What is happening?

[223] Okay.

[224] We got to get started.

[225] We We haven't even covered why we got in a fight in the first place.

[226] It's not important.

[227] I don't care.

[228] That's true.

[229] Because I said, oh, do you do them yourself?

[230] And then I need you to replicate the tone.

[231] I got snarky.

[232] Okay, so say what happens.

[233] Well, Matt was saying, I was like, hey, do you tweeze your own middle of the eyebrows?

[234] And I said, no, my wife does it.

[235] Because I thought you were saying, like, do you have some fancy, schmancy person that comes and does it?

[236] Well, turns out that's a real thing I didn't really realize.

[237] So I was making a joke about, no, I didn't.

[238] I take care of my eyebrows, like, the common man. What kind of tool do you use?

[239] I don't know.

[240] Sometimes if I'm just trimming my beard, I'll just razor it off with electric razor.

[241] Sometimes I'll just shave it with a razor razor if I'm shaving.

[242] I mean, I'm just, you know, devil may care.

[243] I'm a common man. I'm a blue collar worker.

[244] Yeah.

[245] You have eyebrows.

[246] They're just blonde.

[247] Yeah, I do have eyebrows.

[248] They're just very, very light.

[249] That must be hard because most of your whole, like, life is you're doing weird faces.

[250] You know, like, do you're less a get part and more of a monday.

[251] Wow.

[252] You too.

[253] Wow, you two.

[254] Welcome to 80s, a go -go.

[255] These are 80s references that weren't even funny in the 80s.

[256] Next year you're going to be doing, where's the beef?

[257] Yeah, we lost so many of our young listeners just now.

[258] Young listeners lost them a long time ago.

[259] We never had them.

[260] That's not true.

[261] I'm really down with the kids.

[262] I'm really down with the kids.

[263] Yeah.

[264] Cool people don't say things like that.

[265] It's true.

[266] When they're off in the clubs, the into Beck's, you know, loser baby.

[267] A loser baby.

[268] Okay, let's get going.

[269] Okay.

[270] My guest today, I'm excited about this gentleman.

[271] He's a very talented actor.

[272] Yeah.

[273] Who played Shane in The Walking Dead and starred in the Netflix series, The Punisher.

[274] He also has his own podcast.

[275] I really like it.

[276] It's called Real Ones, and it's available wherever you get your podcast.

[277] I said it before.

[278] I'm excited to talk to him today.

[279] He's a good man. A very talented gentleman.

[280] John Bernthal, welcome.

[281] You know, I've always liked you.

[282] You came on our show a couple of times.

[283] We clicked and I was all excited you were coming on the show and then I suddenly had an attitude about it this morning.

[284] An attitude?

[285] Yeah, and I'll tell you why.

[286] Tell me. Because a guy who works here, Aaron Blair, we call him Blay.

[287] It's just before you're going to be here and everyone's excited that you're coming in.

[288] Everyone here's a big fan.

[289] Oh, man. And I'm excited that you're coming in.

[290] No, I'm excited that you're coming in.

[291] And then Blay says, yeah, he's such a man, he's just amazing, amazing.

[292] He's saying, you know, it's weird.

[293] and he wasn't doing a joke.

[294] He said, Conan, in a lot of ways, he's your opposite.

[295] And I was like, what?

[296] And he's like, you know, because he's so cool.

[297] And he's like a real man's man. And I was like, no, no, seriously, seriously.

[298] And everyone in the room was like, yeah, yeah.

[299] Yeah, he's the, he's like the alternate.

[300] And they meant it in the nicest way about you.

[301] And then I suddenly I was like, shit, I think they're right.

[302] So I was strongly disagree.

[303] Listen, so I was just going to say, I was very tempted when you came in to fight me, to fight you.

[304] But to wait until some moment when you were vulnerable.

[305] You know, I want to do it.

[306] I want to come at you when you don't expect it.

[307] I wanted a gawry to distract you.

[308] And I wanted to have like a large stick or something.

[309] So I was going to win in it completely.

[310] And still, you would have taken the broken stick out of my hand.

[311] I don't know about that.

[312] You know what's crazy is I have these memories of doing your show.

[313] And you were, you know, it's such a horrifying thing to do those shows, you know, when you're, you're starting out.

[314] You were so good to me. And one time I forgot my shoes.

[315] I don't know if you have it.

[316] You probably have no memory of that, but you gave me your own personal shoe.

[317] They were way too big and I wore them on the show.

[318] And you were so good to me. And then you left with my fucking shoes.

[319] And ever since then, and you wear them, even as the Punisher, you were wearing my shoes, right?

[320] Which didn't even fit the character.

[321] That's not what Frank Castle would wear.

[322] And I was like, why the fuck is he wearing my shoes?

[323] But I remember seeing you at, I think it was at, It was at one of these Hollywood.

[324] I never go to these things, but it was at Lizzie Kaplan's birthday party.

[325] Like on the, the great Lizzie Kaplan.

[326] The best in the world.

[327] And I love Lizzie.

[328] So funny.

[329] Yeah.

[330] And I saw you there.

[331] And I was literally like, can I, I've been on your show.

[332] Can I go say hello to you?

[333] And I did.

[334] I was too shy to do it, man. Oh, that's ridiculous.

[335] So there it goes for Blay or whatever his name is.

[336] Nah, man. It's right over there in the corner.

[337] Oh, that's you, dude.

[338] Nah, man. Me and him are the same.

[339] I'm as insecure as they get.

[340] Man, I was like, shit.

[341] I wish I could go.

[342] And I literally was one of those like, should, I should, and I should.

[343] And I totally, totally went down.

[344] Here's how we, here's how one of the ways were different.

[345] Just before we started rolling on this, we were chatting.

[346] And the conversation started to get really good.

[347] And I thought, wait a minute, why aren't we rolling it on this podcast?

[348] That's how fun it is to talk to John.

[349] And I was like, we've got to get going on this.

[350] And the reason I wanted to start rolling is that you were telling a story that I can't tell.

[351] Yes, sir.

[352] You were telling a story about being the day before, a way.

[353] wedding.

[354] Oh, and you got hit.

[355] And you got into a fight and someone hit you with a bar stool from behind.

[356] Guess what?

[357] I don't have a story like that.

[358] It's not, but look, by the way, just to, just to be clear, I was trying to break up a fight and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and I was trying to break up to fight, not fight, and a guy hit me from behind with one of those outdoor bar stools.

[359] And I got knocked out for a second, and I had to get all these staples across my head, and they shaved that part of my head, and I had all this dried blood because I couldn't shower, you know, and then I had to do my best man's speech looking like freaking Frankenstein, but I will never forget the look of disgust in the doctors.

[360] You know, I went there to be treated, and it was just like, you fucking idiot.

[361] Like, like, I have to spend my time.

[362] He was mad at, at you.

[363] Of course he was, because I'm out there probably, he thinks I'm talking smack at a bar, and you probably thought I totally had it coming.

[364] And, you know, I tried to sort of, you know, sell my side of the story to me. He wasn't interested at all.

[365] But John, John, you don't understand, you have a story about getting, breaking up a bar fight.

[366] By the way, if a bar fight breaks out, I don't break it up.

[367] I quickly, I quickly, I run and I start swiping for an Uber.

[368] All my stories All my stories involve going to the hospital revolve around like the medication they prescribed I put a little too much cream on my hand slightly raised reddish area And yours is Man I'm trying to break up a bar fight I get hit with a stool That's how we're different I've got to be more like you I think you would have done the same thing Teach me to be like you Oh no man Oh no you teach me man And I'm not the least bit proud of that.

[369] But I will say that, doctor, I could feel the palpable disgust.

[370] And that is why I do ride my motorcycle.

[371] And my wife did sort of make a deal with me years ago.

[372] She said it's either boxing or the motorcycle.

[373] And that day, I rolled my motorcycle down the street.

[374] And I gave it to there was a guy, old Phil, who lived down the street, an old army vet.

[375] I gave him my motorcycle.

[376] But now, because I think because of that bar stool, I get such terrible headaches when I box, I've quit sparring and I've quit mixing it up in the ring so I'm back to the motorcycle now but I am so afraid that if I do get hurt the doctor is going to look at me with that same level of disgust because this is a decision that I made myself you know right right right maybe this doctor's like this with everybody you think that's right yeah maybe when like a 75 year old woman comes in and since I think I have chest pains you disgust me weekly you suck it up with your weak third ventricle Lupus, how dare you?

[377] A blood disease.

[378] You know, it's funny because I'm a massive fan of yours and I first, like a lot of people I first saw you on The Walking Dead and that's when you started coming on the show and you just pop on the screen.

[379] You're so authentic.

[380] You're so, and you have such power as an actor and it surprised me when I learned later on.

[381] You didn't figure that out that you had this, that acting was a possibility until a little later in the game.

[382] You were in college, right?

[383] Yeah, yeah.

[384] It was, you know, there just wasn't really anything kind of around me growing up that made me, you know, I had nobody really in my life that did it.

[385] And, you know, I don't know.

[386] I think now, you know, being a dad and seeing my kids and, you know, my kids like to play with action figures a lot.

[387] And I saw my oldest son Henry the other day kind of doing, I used to do that a lot.

[388] I used to play these little games and act out parts.

[389] And so I guess I was doing a lot of that.

[390] I think I had a pretty wild imagination.

[391] But, yeah, no real window into, didn't do a lot of youth theater.

[392] That's for sure.

[393] Right.

[394] Well, you were very heavily into, you know, boxing.

[395] I was, yeah, I was into some martial arts and some boxing, a lot of sports, baseball, football.

[396] And just, I was just kind of a knucklehead.

[397] I just kind of was getting into trouble left and right and really kind of lost, honestly.

[398] I had really good friends, but, yeah, I think I lacked.

[399] I think I lacked direction.

[400] So you feel like it could have gone badly for you, but you got off on the wrong exit or you took the right turn and that got you into acting?

[401] Yeah, look.

[402] I mean, I met a woman.

[403] I was blessed to meet a woman in college.

[404] I took an acting class literally by accident.

[405] I thought I was signing up to intro to theater, which was going to be 150 people in a big theater.

[406] I thought I could maybe drop ass and watch movies.

[407] That's what I heard.

[408] That was the movie street.

[409] but I ended up I took so many courses because of that.

[410] Yeah, so but being the shit bag that I was, I ended up, you know, in this small intro to acting class with very serious, you know, acting majors and kids who really took it seriously.

[411] And I'd never really been around kids like that before.

[412] And, you know, there was an exercise that we had to talk about.

[413] We had to bring in something that was really important to us and share it with a class, like a game of show and tell steroids and the level of emotion that these kids had sharing these objects, I just couldn't believe it.

[414] Going on for 10 minutes about, you know, some corn cob pipe that their Papp had given them or, you know, some blue traveler CD that their boyfriend had given them.

[415] And then it got to me and I forgot, I just didn't have anything.

[416] I totally, you know, as as always, just totally botched the assignment.

[417] So I just grabbed my catcher's glove before I was going to baseball practice and I launched into this story about how my mom had died and she gave me this glove on her deathbed and my mom is totally alive and well ABC and as I was telling the story I'm like crying my freaking eyes out and everybody in the room is crying their eyes out.

[418] I'm like whoa whoa whoa hang on y 'all I'm just I'm just doing the acting I like I don't mean and this woman Alma Becker I have her tattooed here she she cleared the class out and like ripped me apart for violating the sanctity of her studio but then she was like you know you you've got something and your punishment is you got to audition for this play that I'm directing And that was my first show.

[419] And then after, you know, I didn't finish school.

[420] I got in some pretty big trouble.

[421] And Alma came to me again.

[422] And she said, look, if you really want to do this, I'll get you an audition to go to Moscow, the Moscow Art Theater.

[423] And that's the reason why I went out there.

[424] And she really, she really saved my life and ended up marrying my wife and I. And I mean, it's a true testament to, I just think that the power of educators and teachers and believing in somebody, especially somebody who's lost and who has no. real great talent or no, you know, I could fight a little bit.

[425] I could play a little bit of sports, but I wasn't going to do anything special with them.

[426] But she saw something in me and she jumped on it.

[427] I think now as a parent, I'm even more, there's this new profound kind of understanding or gratitude that that I have for her and for teachers in general who do that.

[428] And I just, I hope that these people, you know, come into my kids' lives, you know?

[429] They will.

[430] I mean, that's the other thing, too, is I reflect on my life.

[431] There's several key people along the way.

[432] Sure.

[433] And I think the fact is, is that, I don't know, what I love most about this is how often you fail and how often you don't know what the hell you're doing and how terrified you are before something starts.

[434] And I think, you know, embracing that and diving into that is, at least for me, that's, that's something that I try to do.

[435] But I'm also really, really aware that this could have gone either way.

[436] many times.

[437] And I think the humility of understanding that it's really the buoys along the path.

[438] It's these great people that led you this way or this way.

[439] If you're not really aware of that, you're not going to see them, you know, as you keep going.

[440] And for me, it's not just the great teachers that I had in Russia, those great coaches that I had.

[441] I mean, my best friend Dougie Thornell, we grew up watching movies together.

[442] That's what we did.

[443] And we would sneak into Goodfell's and watch it over and over again.

[444] We snuck into The Silence of the Lambs, watched it over and over again.

[445] And it was so long, so long.

[446] I mean, decades before I'd ever be able to, you know, sort of exercise those kinds of muscles as an artist.

[447] I mean, my first five, ten years, I was a tree.

[448] Or I was, you know, I was these old sort of avant -garde, you know, Bertolt -Brett characters that had nothing to do with the stuff that I was raised on.

[449] But it was always, I still to this day, anything I do, I try to take it back to the Dougie Thornellt, the two of us sitting on his couch used to duct tape the remote control to a ping pong paddle and he would laugh his ass off at stuff and I'm like, would this make Dougie laugh?

[450] You know, what would this do to Dougie?

[451] And it's a huge part of everything that I do.

[452] And I want to find the next person and you never know who that person's going to be.

[453] And it's oftentimes, I think, not the genius that we think we're going to cross.

[454] It's this person that comes into our life and if our hearts are open, our eyes are open, we'll see it.

[455] You know, it's interesting to me that you get on The Walking Dead and you're on it from the beginning and it's such this iconic character you get to play and you really nail it and then famously, you're killed not just once but twice.

[456] Oh, yeah.

[457] You know, because you can't take John Burntall out with just one.

[458] Trust me, I've tried.

[459] This man will not die.

[460] And so, you get off the series and so there are a lot of people that might think and then that's just obviously the series is just starting to gain momentum and so there might be some people that would think well shit that was I wish I could have stayed on for 10 years 11 years but actually I think for someone like you that frees you up for sure in its own way it's a gift because then you get to go on and do all these other things and and show who you are and show different sides of yourself of course yeah it's always um I really try to exercise not not not calling it not not saying it's one way or the other you know um sure at the time i was like well this is right this is just in line with everything else it's ever happened in my life you know it's like here we are i finally got on the show it's finally taken off and boom they got me the hell out of there you know like pack up your shit and go and and i remember going back to the walking dead to go pick up my truck and i remember like walking out and seeing them sort of shoot this first episode that i wasn't going to be in and i wanted to go say goodbye to everyone.

[461] And instead of saying goodbye, I just sat on this rock in the woods and just watched this beautiful sort of symphony of the barn was on fire and there were all these zombies and I saw Norman doing this thing and Scott Wilson rest in peace just standing out on the, you know, bellowing and just this beautiful, you know, crew and these people there in my family and I saw them all working.

[462] And I just palpably understood that's, that that's, you know, I'm not part of that anymore.

[463] That's they're doing their thing.

[464] And I sat there and I weeped and, you know, I felt sorry for myself and I knew it was over.

[465] And look, you know, the only thing I can, I can look at with Walking Dead is just unbelievable, just full gratitude and just full gratitude.

[466] Like, what a, what a privilege, what an honor, what a, what a thing to play a character with a real beginning, middle, and end, but more than anything, you know, Stephen and Norman and Scott and Melissa and irony and Sarah and Andy.

[467] I mean, these are like lifelong friends who really taught.

[468] me how to be an artist and a father and a husband all at the same time and to trim so much fat off your life and whittle it down.

[469] And those are the guys.

[470] Those are my closest friends, you know, in this business.

[471] And I mean, you know those guys.

[472] I mean, they're beautiful human beings.

[473] Yeah, we've interviewed just, I think I've interviewed everyone you've mentioned.

[474] They're great people.

[475] Great people.

[476] I would have handled that differently.

[477] I would have been sitting on the truck and watching them shoot a scene without me now that I'm gone.

[478] And I would have just, started screaming I don't fucking need you ruining every take you needed me and they'd be like Kai Conan can you please you had two good years and roll let's go action can we get him out of it fuck you and then I do like donuts in my truck and be knocking over zombies and be like come on man right right blaring some Danzig yeah no I mean I don't know man And I'll say it.

[479] I just like, you know.

[480] You'll regret this.

[481] And anyway, you know, like, I think it's also okay to feel a second of that pain or to wonder.

[482] And but yeah, looking back at it without a doubt, you know, doing that show was the best thing that ever happened to me in my career.

[483] And then I think getting killed off was the best thing that ever happened to me in my career.

[484] And I'm just, I'm flabbergasted and grateful for all of it.

[485] I want to ask you about your podcast.

[486] because I've been listening to it and I really like it and I think one of the things you're doing on it which I I think is great is you know obviously we do two versions of this one is I talk to people like you people in the business people who are known celebrities and then we do another one where I talk to fans that have a question for me just around the world and I've found that it's not that I prefer one to the other but but when I'm talking to I could be talking to someone in Eastern Africa or someone in living literally in like Wales and they have a question for me I find that there's so much discovery there just talking to folk out in the world and I know that a big thing on your podcast is trying to find people that have like a compelling story but it's not about whether anyone would know them or not yeah and look I love that I love that about your podcast, and I think, unlike you, you know, you're incredible at this.

[487] You're, you know, people, look, there might be a few people that listen to this because they're John Bernthal fans to this episode, but the people are listening for you because you're hilarious and you're insightful and you know how to get great interviews.

[488] As we've learned, there's a lot of people that are listening for Sona and for Matt, too, which, by the way, frustrates me to no end.

[489] I'm sure it does.

[490] We're trying to weed those people out.

[491] You're welcome to.

[492] Are we?

[493] Yeah, I don't think so.

[494] No, I don't think we are.

[495] I think we're encouraging.

[496] No, but, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, this is one of the reasons I want to talk to is I was listening to your podcast.

[497] And you have the thing that I think is so important, which is you really are curious.

[498] You really do want to talk to these people.

[499] And your kind of mission statement, I think, is let's find common ground.

[500] Let's find stuff that we can talk about.

[501] And, I mean, I've heard you talk to, you know, a, you know.

[502] on your podcast, like Lena Dunham, like a celebrity, but I've also heard you talk to people who've done time in prison, people who've been through some stuff that, you know, maybe a lot of people don't, would never encounter someone like this.

[503] And you're talking to them, you're really listening and you're really trying to connect.

[504] And to me, that's what makes it work.

[505] Thanks, man. I mean, look, I'm so deeply grateful for the people that come on.

[506] And the fact of the matter is, is the vast majority of the folks that I have come on, have never done anything like this before.

[507] and I know I'm asking a lot.

[508] And almost every single person that I've had on, I have a very, very deep, a close relationship with and we have real history with each other.

[509] So I understand that I'm asking them to do something that they're not entirely comfortable with, but I do genuinely believe in each person in their story.

[510] I think I've just been so, the sort of kernel of it just came out of being deeply, deeply frustrated with just the state of discourse in this country.

[511] I felt that everything is agenda -driven.

[512] So many of the major issues that we talk about are sort of being led and discussed by people of no real experience in that issue.

[513] And, you know, a big part of it was coming out of COVID.

[514] You know, my cousin, Adam Schlesinger from the band of, from the band Fountains of Wayne, he passed really early in COVID, way too young, left two daughters behind.

[515] And it really kind of, it hit our family very, very quickly and right off the bat.

[516] So we were very serious of sort of staying, staying isolated up in Ohio and we really weren't leaving for any reason.

[517] And then, you know, when George Floyd came around, you know, and that uprising started, I really wanted to be a part of it.

[518] And I saw what happened to Mr. Floyd, as we all did.

[519] And I was disgusted.

[520] I was horrified.

[521] And look, I'm someone who's been beat up by the police before.

[522] You know, I'm someone who has a little bit of.

[523] experience with that.

[524] And I remember exactly where I was when I saw the Rodney King tape.

[525] I remember exactly where I was when I heard that verdict.

[526] And these were sort of key moments in my life.

[527] So I was out there and I wanted to be out there.

[528] But at the same time, I turn on CNN and I turn on Fox News and I would see these protests and I would see people throwing bottles at police officers and people in riot gear.

[529] And each person under that mask to me is also a father, a mother, a brother and sister, I have really, really good friends in law enforcement, close lifelong friends.

[530] So every time I'd go out, I'd also go by a district or a police station and show my support, my support there.

[531] And it just seemed like there was this vacuum where I couldn't be for both things, where it couldn't where you had to pick a side.

[532] And for me, folks who really walk the walk, they don't just talk about it, they have deep respect and even reverence for folks that are on the quote unquote other side because they're rubbing elbows with them.

[533] They're working with them every day.

[534] My friends who are police officers down in Newton have deep, deep respect for the community.

[535] My friends who are in the community down in South Central, down in the Pueblos, they see things that police officers do every day that they have deep respect for.

[536] Of course, there's times where they're completely on the other side, and there's a lot of anger, and there's a lot of hostility.

[537] But these people are actually in the middle of it.

[538] And my whole idea was let's bring folks on that walk the walk.

[539] Don't just talk about it.

[540] And let's hear their stories.

[541] And let's see that they care about what their kids are doing.

[542] They care about their families.

[543] They want what's best for this country, too.

[544] And what I find is all this agenda driven were on one side or the other, that's really a discussion for people who don't, who have the luxury of sort of staying in the safe sidelines.

[545] But the folks that are there in the middle, they've got way bigger fish to fry.

[546] And again, they're constantly looking for these points of connection.

[547] And it's been a fascinating ride.

[548] We have, you know, teachers and surgeons and police officers.

[549] and inmates and special forces soldiers and nurses and firefighters.

[550] But again, each one of them are people that are deeply, deeply respected from the community that they're in.

[551] I think their stories are fascinating.

[552] And most of all, you know, we're really connected.

[553] They're people I really, really know.

[554] And so the sort of leap of faith I'm asking you to take is that when I say this person is a, you know, quote unquote, real one, you got to trust me on it.

[555] Well, that's the thing is I've noticed when I listen to it, and this is what I found compelling.

[556] Sometimes you'd be talking to somebody and I could tell they'd never, they weren't familiar with microphone.

[557] I mean, meaning they, you know, most everybody I talk to knows how to speak into a microphone.

[558] Not that it's a hard thing to know, but there's a shyness almost that comes when you're talking to, you know, a firefighter or a nurse or someone who's, you know, just come out a prison.

[559] Their approach to it is not like a broadcast or a performer or someone who's been on a press junket.

[560] They're approaching the microphone sometimes in a little bit of a different way and they're quieter.

[561] And I find that that pulls me in because I know that what I'm, you're capturing an authentic person here and you're not trying to get them to be something they're not.

[562] And their motive is not, you know, their motive is not, they're not selling anything.

[563] Yeah.

[564] And I think It's a very trepidacious and very, I mean, a lot of these folks, I mean, my one friend who's a smoke jumper, you know, a career forest firefighter, you know, we've been talking for weeks about coming on.

[565] And look, he's a guy who, you know, when the forest fires, up in Ohio, you know, I've fleed from the forest fires.

[566] Fled.

[567] What is it, flea, fled.

[568] Just get your, get the fuck out of it.

[569] We can all agree that that's the correct terminology.

[570] But that's what you do.

[571] That's what one does.

[572] But he goes right into it.

[573] And it was really part of the reason.

[574] that kept our town safe from the Thomas fire, but he's very, very trepidious and worried about coming on.

[575] He has something that he wants to say.

[576] He wants to talk about the PTSD that's run rampant and firefighters and that there's really not been, you know, we talk about it in soldiers.

[577] We're starting to talk about it a lot in law enforcement, but not for these guys and what they see every single day and that they're set right back out to the field.

[578] And so he, he's got something he wants to share.

[579] But yeah, there's no, there's no, there's not a lot of practice.

[580] There's not a lot, There's nothing slick about it.

[581] And look, it's part of the reason why, you know, we also make it doubly hard because there's cameras, too.

[582] And I think that that's part of the experience, you know, really seeing these people open up, seeing what's really important to them.

[583] And again, I just have so much respect and reverence and genuine love for the people that come on.

[584] The other thing is when you're talking to people like that, the fact that they're not always eager is assigned to me of also authenticity.

[585] For sure.

[586] Because there are so many people.

[587] people in our culture that are like, come on, it's my, I want my camera time or I want my podcast time because I've got a story to tell.

[588] And that's fine.

[589] But there's so many people out there who are incredibly courageous people with amazing stories to tell.

[590] And almost their reticence, to me, makes them more valuable, more special somehow because they're not promoting themselves.

[591] Couldn't agree with you more.

[592] I've tried many times to go on the real ones.

[593] And they said I've done nothing brave.

[594] No, you haven't.

[595] I have.

[596] No, John has said you've done, you've exhibited no bravery and you're not an authentic person.

[597] Come on, Cohn, come on, man. And I said, you know, I'm very right.

[598] I think I've...

[599] You're brave in your self -promotion, you know.

[600] Yes, thank you.

[601] Your shamelessness.

[602] Yes, thank you.

[603] See, and you know what, John, that's a form...

[604] I think that's what you're missing.

[605] You know, you look at me and you see a guy who, yes, flees long before the fire even broke out.

[606] Yeah.

[607] And probably started the fire.

[608] Yeah, maybe started it.

[609] And also, I'm just constantly fleeing in case there is danger.

[610] And you're looking at a guy and you're thinking like, yeah, he's not.

[611] But I think in my shameless self -promotion, I am a hero.

[612] Oh, I didn't say hero.

[613] Oh, I'm courageous.

[614] You know what?

[615] No one said hero.

[616] Oh, I thought, I heard hero.

[617] No one said that.

[618] You know what?

[619] I think it's the microphone.

[620] Eduardo, check the microphones because I, sometimes I hear hero when someone's saying coward.

[621] Stop that.

[622] You would love to have you all, man. You would love it.

[623] You know, I would like to just like completely changing topics, but I know that you've been, you know, trained as a fighter, and I just was thinking to myself, I know I'm long in the tooth, but there are times in my life where I think, maybe now I could pick it up.

[624] Maybe I could pick it up now.

[625] I'm not even kidding.

[626] Are you being serious?

[627] Because it's such a great workout.

[628] You absolutely good.

[629] Analyze me as a fighter.

[630] I've got the height and the reach.

[631] That reach, you got those long arms.

[632] Right.

[633] I would want nothing to do with you, man. Like, seeing you in the gym, if you just walked in, I would look at the length is a serious, serious thing.

[634] And I'm, and here's what I'm saying.

[635] I am, but you can't punch someone in the face.

[636] John Berthal is telling me that I have it to.

[637] Why do you have to punch someone in the face?

[638] Why can't he just punch a bag or hit a handbag and start training?

[639] No, there are some people I really want to hit.

[640] We'll get there.

[641] That's always one of them's in this room.

[642] Hey.

[643] But I'm scrappy.

[644] I'm wrong for dope.

[645] I would love to see the two of you.

[646] My problem is, I think it would be, could I take a punch, you know?

[647] I think you could, man. I think you could.

[648] I think it's a lot of that is mental.

[649] I got my nose smashed in.

[650] I got jumped by some, by a bunch of people when I was a, I was a graduated high school.

[651] And it was before I started college.

[652] And I wandered into sort of a dicey neighborhood in Boston.

[653] And I realized I was in a neighborhood I was supposed to be in.

[654] And I was wearing a T -shirt that had the Irish flag on it, which, I'm not kidding.

[655] It had been a gift from my uncle who had been to Ireland and it had the Irish flag on it.

[656] I wasn't thinking about it, but apparently I was in an Italian neighborhood.

[657] So I got my nose smashed in by some fellows who didn't like the cut of my jib.

[658] That's how I described him to the police.

[659] Who hits you, Mr. Bunn?

[660] There were these fellows!

[661] They didn't like the cut of my...

[662] But after that, I thought like, man, you know, and the police were asking me like, well, what did you do when you realize you're about to get hit?

[663] Like, what stance did you go into?

[664] stance?

[665] Because I'm told I'd been a little bit of a wise guy to know.

[666] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[667] Well, you know what's crazy about that is you actually told me that the first time I ever did your show.

[668] You said, because we talked about the size of my deformed, just disgusting excuse for a nose and how many time it had been broken.

[669] And then you said to me, and then in the pause, in the commercial break, I leaned over to, and I've always been so intrigued about what the hell people actually talk about in those moments.

[670] Because besides with you, it's always been a super, super awkward conversation I've had.

[671] No, we had a great conversation.

[672] But that one, I went over to you and I said, hey, man, those guys that hit you, do you think they now know that they hit you?

[673] And you looked at me like I was the, and you were like, dude, it was before, it was like before I was in college, I just said that.

[674] And I, and then the next time I saw you, I tried to bring it up with you, but I think I kind of failed again, man. You didn't fail?

[675] No, no, I think I just was thinking like, no, those guys have no idea.

[676] But you don't think now.

[677] If they beat up Conan O 'Brien.

[678] And if they did, they'd be like, could, you know.

[679] You are a memorable figure.

[680] A memorable figure, man. It's going on a rub, right?

[681] Yeah.

[682] We beat up a giant, very pale kind of red -headed guy.

[683] Dude, they beat so many people up that they don't remember.

[684] They might.

[685] I don't know.

[686] That's the rub.

[687] If they're hitting them just for the flood.

[688] But, you know, there could have been other reasons that they hit you, which could have been, you know, your size, you know, other things.

[689] They asked for money, and I said no. And they said, why not?

[690] And I said, I don't feel like it.

[691] And the time between.

[692] between me putting the period on don't feel like the tea of don't feel like it, I didn't even see it coming.

[693] It was like bang, bang, bang.

[694] And then the anti -Italian word that you threw at him right before you did that.

[695] I swear to God, I did not do that.

[696] Then I would have had it coming.

[697] But the funny part of the story to me is that my mom got called and she was at work and the person who called her from like the emergency room because I just walked to an emergency room and just blood everywhere and I, and the person who called her said, we have your son here, Conan.

[698] he was attacked by a mob and she said attacked by a mob and my mom went yeah okay I'm coming didn't even question knew they're like yeah that wise guy I'm sure I'm up she didn't question it at all she was like yeah I'm on my way were you by yourself?

[699] I was with a friend of mine who I later who I didn't see for many many many many many years and then a couple of years ago my friend John and I reconnected and one of the first things we talked about was I said You were there that day.

[700] He was like, oh, yeah, I remember.

[701] You know, you were, you were being a little bit of a wise guy.

[702] So it was you, skinny, tall you in an Irish flag t -shirt walking through what I imagine is like the Robert De Niro version of God.

[703] Yeah, it was 1917.

[704] That's right.

[705] And Finnish cards and, and Funnuchy drove by in a model A. And he just wanted to wet his beak.

[706] He just wanted to wet his beak, you know.

[707] He didn't want too much.

[708] Yeah, we were, it was through.

[709] that's amazing that's amazing but anyway I think that's when I realize like no I it is a great form of exercise and I've always I grew up as one of six a couple of brothers and constant like fake fighting but also real fighting wrestling and so that has been my relationship with a lot of other males in my life has been and my son even when he was a little kid when I see him I would chase him and tackle him and we were roughhouse.

[710] I don't do it now because over COVID he grew to be exactly my height.

[711] He's 6 '4 and he's really fucking strong.

[712] And so now when I quote, have a fun wrestle with my son, suddenly my head is going through a wall.

[713] And I'm like, okay, maybe we're going to let's play hungry, hungry hippos.

[714] Yeah, so I need you to help me. Yeah, you're going to be my, just tell me where to, you know, you're encouraging me. You're saying, I could go, I could work on a Speedbag?

[715] There is literally a gym right down, Steve Petromali's gym is right down the street.

[716] He's the best in the world.

[717] You could start training there.

[718] You would never regret it and you would whip the snot out of your son when you're done.

[719] You know what?

[720] This is the best podcast episode we've ever done.

[721] You should not be empowered any more than you are.

[722] I know.

[723] I'm going to be on your corner.

[724] But also, John, keep in mind.

[725] I use the old style.

[726] I am an turn of the century boxer.

[727] You're a full on pugilist.

[728] I can see it, man. I have a sash tied around my waist on bare chested.

[729] Fake mustache that curls up on the side.

[730] years ago, when I hosted Sarnat Live, I had a night, there was, I told them the writers beforehand, there's one sketch I want to do.

[731] I want to play an Irish boxer.

[732] I think you can look at it.

[733] It was being, I think it was in year 2000, but I play a boxer who boxes this style, but I'm going against a real boxer.

[734] That's amazing.

[735] It's just me getting pummeled.

[736] You know, but I'm doing this and bouncing up into, I've always thought, What would it be like if a guy tried to do that?

[737] Tried to do that today against like Floyd Mayweather.

[738] Come here, Floyd.

[739] I'll give you a pasting.

[740] Come on step in, Floyd.

[741] I'll show you.

[742] I'll give you some creamed corn.

[743] You know, that kind of bullshit.

[744] I love it, man. Creamed corn.

[745] Yeah, that's my favorite insult.

[746] I'll give you some creamed corn.

[747] Okay.

[748] You're going to get beat up so bad.

[749] That's probably what you said to the Italian.

[750] Step up, fellows.

[751] I'll give you some cream corn Cabang!

[752] Cabang!

[753] Mrs. O 'Brien, your son's been a time.

[754] I know, buy a mom.

[755] The creamed corn thing.

[756] Yeah.

[757] It sounds like John didn't do a damn thing, huh?

[758] Yeah, really.

[759] John was smart.

[760] It happened fast.

[761] So there wasn't much, and not on John at all because this was not a long fight.

[762] Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

[763] This was not a fight.

[764] This was not a fight at all.

[765] I was, I was a giant Hummel figurine, and I think there was one or two punches, and I shattered and then John had a dust pen picked up the pieces and took me to the emergency room.

[766] So, yeah, John was very nice.

[767] He took good care of me after I had quickly inflicted all the damage on myself.

[768] Listen, if you're one of these Italian youths that remember hitting Conan O 'Brien back then, call it.

[769] You want to come on the real ones, by the way.

[770] Yes.

[771] Yes.

[772] Yes.

[773] By the way, yeah.

[774] That's right.

[775] I'm going to, and John's not even going to call me and say they tracked him down.

[776] Yeah, I'm gonna just hear like, we got someone on today, he took some wrong turns back in the day in Boston.

[777] He punched out Conan O 'Brien, but you know what?

[778] He's a guy who made his mistakes, he's owned up.

[779] And you're not even going to give me a heads up, right?

[780] Anyway, just to show our appreciation if you come on the show, we bought you a Dodge Charger, it's out front.

[781] Wait, you gave him a car?

[782] Hey, he seemed like a good guy.

[783] Yeah, man, it's going through it.

[784] Yeah.

[785] Now, you do your podcast wherever, right?

[786] Do you go to them to be your podcast?

[787] A little of everything.

[788] So there's a, a biker bar restaurant called the Deer Lodge in Ohio, which is wonderful.

[789] We've done a lot there.

[790] And then we've done some out of my house.

[791] But yeah, we go a lot.

[792] We've been doing a series out of Calapagia State Prison, which has just been fascinating.

[793] We've had to go to the prison.

[794] We go to the prison.

[795] We've had full access of, you know, all the yards and the, we've been able to go into the housing units.

[796] And, you know, that's just been, most of what we've been doing there is talking to this community of guys there.

[797] It's called the Elwap community, guys who are serving life without parole.

[798] And it's really beautiful what these guys have done.

[799] They've kind of all banded together.

[800] They just really push each other and encourage each other to sort of try to find some sort of hope.

[801] And they're in classes.

[802] They're in program.

[803] and it's really changed the entire kind of culture and mindset of the prison.

[804] I mean, these are guys who literally have living death sentences.

[805] One of them, Brett May, he's gone and gotten all his degrees.

[806] He's now a paralegal.

[807] He's just constantly working to make his family proud.

[808] And what I've seen more than anything is they just have this unbelievably cogent and intimate relationship with the crime that they committed and with their victims.

[809] They've gone through this real process of shame and explored every single ripple effect of the horrible things that they've done and who it's had an effect on.

[810] And every breath they take, every moment of their life now is sort of living in service of that and in awareness of that.

[811] And they wear their crimes really with them.

[812] And I think, again, goes back to fatherhood.

[813] I'm sure you're sort of the same way.

[814] But for me, I know what it's like to be separated from my kids when I'm working and that kind of pain.

[815] And it's a special kind of, you know, I go do a movie and, you know, I got to be all in because I'm, you know, that's kind of how I work.

[816] And there's this pain because you're missing out.

[817] There's also this shame with it because you're not there and this guilt.

[818] You know, it's really taught me so much about parenthood.

[819] There's no way you can tell me that these folks don't love their kids and they aren't completely committed.

[820] And even though they literally can only see them.

[821] them in these sort of, you know, mandated, you know, termed visiting hours every single second these families and these men have their kids on their minds.

[822] And it's a beautiful thing to see.

[823] And it's a real exploration of redemption.

[824] And in no way am I trying with any of these people to say, hey, this is the way or hey, let's get.

[825] It's just hearing people talk and hearing their stories and hearing where they're coming from.

[826] I really feel, you know, that all of us feel hopeless it sometimes.

[827] And let's look at somebody who really experiences it in a daily way.

[828] And they're finding hope.

[829] Then they're using certain techniques to find that hope.

[830] And again, that's now permeated all through the prison community.

[831] And it's been a beautiful thing to behold.

[832] And I really feel honored that I get to be there.

[833] You know, it's interesting because when you talk about trying to bridge these gaps and seeing how polarized things are, I think we all noticed that someone used a really good word for it, which is people are siloed, meaning the way a missile is in a silo.

[834] If you're you know, on the far right, you're in your silo.

[835] And if you're on the far left, you're in your silo, and there's no interaction between the two.

[836] And I keep thinking, what is the basis of that?

[837] And what I keep thinking, I have this idea recently that I'm thinking about, which is I'm tired of people pretending that it's simple when life is extremely complicated.

[838] And I think more and more that, and I'm talking about both sides, if you're on the far right and you're watching that kind of media, everyone is saying, it's really simple.

[839] Here's what we have to do.

[840] We have to get back to the good old days.

[841] And it can be, you know, here are the six things we have to do, and it's very simple.

[842] And that feels wrong to me. And then I look at sometimes the far left, and they're saying the same thing, which is, it's really very simple.

[843] These are the six things we have to do.

[844] And I think it is incredibly complicated.

[845] And so I just like it when I talk to people who admit it's complicated.

[846] Life is complicated.

[847] Solutions are complicated.

[848] so we need to be listening to each other, maybe let the person finish their sentence before you cut them off and say, no, you're wrong, it's really simple.

[849] People don't have the answers, and there's something really refreshing in hearing that.

[850] And I think, you know, when we go into that prison, again, you start talking to some of the guards, some of the people that have worked there for years, years, decades, wounds, stab wounds all over for when it was a really violent place and when things were all completely divided racially, they still can point to times where they saw things in the inmate population that they have deep, deep respect for and vice versa.

[851] It's a community.

[852] Those people, they don't have the luxury of not working it out.

[853] They have to work it out.

[854] And to me, I think, you know, we've been reduced, as you said.

[855] I love the way you say it about silos.

[856] It's so easy.

[857] It's so comfortable just saying, okay, well, they're the bad guys.

[858] We're the good guys.

[859] They're idiots.

[860] And we're smart.

[861] It's so easy.

[862] And, you know, human beings were driven for things to be comfortable.

[863] but anything in this, your career, you know, any athlete's career, a fighter's career, a doctor, a lawyer, anybody that's achieved anything, you know, has gone through a little bit of pain.

[864] It's been difficult.

[865] It's been, it's, it's, you got to dig into that.

[866] You got to dig into the wound.

[867] And I think all this sort of flag waving from either side, all this bombast and this rhetoric saying it's them, it's them, it's them.

[868] I can't think of, I can't think of anything less American.

[869] I think the thing that frustrates me is that patriotism and masculinity for that matter is getting confused with being completely steadfast in your views, saying I'm not going to bend.

[870] I'm not going to change.

[871] It's my way or the highway.

[872] When to me, that is literally the definition of cowardice.

[873] That is literally the most un -American.

[874] Well, that's sit down with somebody.

[875] That's one of the things that I think is really good as you talk about masculinity a lot.

[876] That comes up a lot.

[877] Does not come up on this podcast.

[878] For reasons that still escape me. No, but seriously, John, like you, you, you, you, You talk about it, and I think you have, it's a great vantage point you have because you can talk about it from this place of having experienced, you know, or having experience with toxic masculinity or people thinking that about you because of, you know, whatever difficulties you've had in the past or the fighting or whatever, they can just think like, oh, this guy's, this is the point of view, this guy's going to be coming at me from.

[879] And then for you to talk about how that is a, can be a toxic formula and is not the answer, gives you an authority.

[880] in that I think that other people, it gives you a power to talk about that subject that maybe other people don't have.

[881] Look, I don't know if I have any power in it.

[882] And I don't, honestly, with the sort of terms that people throw out there, you know, I don't know.

[883] I'm no authority on that.

[884] I know that I'm a father and I'm a father of two boys.

[885] And I know the kind of men that I want them to grow up to be and the kind of young man I want them to be.

[886] And I know the kind of models of masculinity that I want them to see.

[887] and I think, you know, sometimes I've talked about this before, and I think sometimes it gets confusing, and I think that I don't know, I do believe in discipline.

[888] I'm somebody, my kids, you know, they practice martial arts.

[889] They know, you know, they, they, they, they, they, um, know how to handle themselves in the woods, you know, they, I, I, I, I really think it's enormously important, not for them, but also just as equally important for my daughter to be able to defend themselves and to be able to handle themselves and to, like, these things are, these things are, these, these, sort of cornerstones of, I think, you know, classic masculinity are super, super important, but equally important is being kind, is being empathetic, is to stand up for somebody who has less rights than you, somebody who's being picked on, somebody who's being put into the corner, somebody who's just sad, you know, getting in touch with a side of them that's softer, having the courage to do that, to, you know, I had a guy on my show that I've just learned so much from a dear friend of mine named Kevin Vance, who's a Navy SEAL and a firefighter and just one of the just this wonderful human being.

[890] And he talks about the code of the samurai and how they yeah, they knew how to fight and they knew how to use swords and they were warriors.

[891] But they also had to get in touch with their quote unquote feminine side and their ability to do calligraphy and to dance and to cook and to garden and that these things are all equally important and and to be well -rounded, but again, when it's confused with being hardened or being a picking on somebody, or again, saying it's my way or the highway, to me, that is, that wreaks of such fear and such insecurity.

[892] And it's a classic rule in the boxing gym.

[893] I've said it before.

[894] When you come in to Steve Petromali's gym, you're going to see.

[895] Oh, I'm coming in.

[896] I know you are.

[897] And I'm coming in hard.

[898] I know, man. Well, well, my point is, is that in any boxing gym in this country, you can see it.

[899] the guy who's the loudest, the guy with the brightest color clothes, the guy who's kind of, you know, dancing around.

[900] That's me. That's all three.

[901] Well, look, I think that will change because I think that that is almost always the guy you don't need to worry about.

[902] But it is the guy who smiles at you and shakes your hand and nods and says, hey man, you want to move a little bit?

[903] Like, eh, you got to deal with this guy.

[904] I'm coming in wearing bright shamrock shorts.

[905] Let's go.

[906] And an actual peacock tail.

[907] Yeah, a peacock tail.

[908] Yeah, and a monocle.

[909] I love it, man. Listen, I want to make sure I help get the word out because your podcast is doing well.

[910] Real Ones is available wherever people get their podcast, right?

[911] Yeah, everywhere, yes, Spotify.

[912] And John Bernthal, real ones, and it's very refreshing.

[913] Thanks, because you're talking to real people about real things and you do have the touch.

[914] You are able to connect with these people.

[915] I think that's very cool.

[916] And, you know, if you ever need help out there in the world, you know, if you get into a tight corner and you need a guy to come in and swing these meat hooks around?

[917] Not him.

[918] Don't call me. Don't call me because I'm a terrible.

[919] I do not have your back.

[920] I don't.

[921] Come on.

[922] That is beautiful.

[923] That is beautiful.

[924] I'm being honest.

[925] I wanted to end, honestly.

[926] I love it.

[927] I'm a kicker.

[928] I'm a guy who kicks and then runs.

[929] It's great.

[930] A little scratch maybe.

[931] A slap?

[932] I can't make a fist.

[933] But I slap and then I run.

[934] I'm a slap and run guy.

[935] I love it.

[936] But anyway, John, I'm just a huge fan.

[937] Thanks, man. So nice of you to come in and proud to know you.

[938] Really, you're doing good work.

[939] I got you, man. Thank you.

[940] Thank you for having me. Thank you guys.

[941] Well, I just have to say it.

[942] Everybody here in the studio has what I call Bernthal fever.

[943] Yep.

[944] Ladies, very happy that he stopped by.

[945] But I've got to say this.

[946] He's a man's man. Yeah.

[947] So the men, very pleased to have him here.

[948] Eduardo, I saw you.

[949] Yeah, I was impressed.

[950] Okay, now tell us what impressed you by John Berndtall.

[951] Very charismatic, dude.

[952] The veins that stuck out of this guy's neck.

[953] When he was relaxed.

[954] Yes, right.

[955] He's so strong.

[956] Taught.

[957] Taught that he has just veins protruding out of his neck.

[958] And it's just, they're there.

[959] I've never heard.

[960] I'm sorry, I didn't know this was a thing.

[961] and I'm constantly, my life has been a series of humiliations, obviously, but I'm constantly hearing about aspects that a dude, that women like that a guy has, and I think, wait, we have to have that.

[962] Like, I knew we're supposed to have broad shoulders and we're supposed to work out and have arms and all these things that I neglected to do.

[963] But then when I hear, oh, yeah, he has veins in his neck.

[964] I didn't know.

[965] I'm sorry, I don't have veins in my neck.

[966] We didn't know that's what we wanted until we saw John Berthal in here and he had him.

[967] And then I was like, okay.

[968] Not only do I not.

[969] Well, maybe he's got high blood pressure.

[970] Should we be worried about it.

[971] No, no, he doesn't.

[972] Not only do I not have neck veins that show.

[973] I might not even have veins in my neck.

[974] You know what?

[975] You know, I'm with you on this.

[976] I went and had an MRI recently.

[977] They found no veins in my body.

[978] They said the blood is just sloshing around loosely.

[979] And they said that I was, uh, they did.

[980] They said I was technically more jellyfish than man. He said, I'm a big bag, a six -foot -four bag, and stuff is sloshing around inside.

[981] And then John Bernthal comes in here with actual veins.

[982] Yeah.

[983] And suddenly I'm the loser?

[984] Well, do you think John Bernthal would compare himself to a jellyfish?

[985] No. The things that you say sometimes, it's like, come on, dude.

[986] Okay.

[987] Well, so I understand I'm no Bernthal.

[988] I get it.

[989] I was impressed, too.

[990] I really like the guy a lot.

[991] Yeah.

[992] And, you know, that's a guy.

[993] I want him at my side.

[994] when the apocalypse comes.

[995] Because I've seen him in action in all these different shows that he's done and all these different roles that he's done.

[996] This guy knows how to handle himself.

[997] He's the real deal.

[998] He's the real deal.

[999] I want him at my side.

[1000] My friends now, who I love, I love my friends.

[1001] They've been my friends for like 30 years.

[1002] But you know that like Rodman, Greg, if trouble breaks out, all three of us are going to faint at the same time.

[1003] You're going to faint.

[1004] And then what are you going to, how are you going to contribute to society?

[1005] Like a sitcom?

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] With no cameras.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] There'll be no cameras left.

[1010] no actors and the three of us will be in the woods making something kind of arch and witty.

[1011] And we'll say, this is what we have to, and then three, like three arrows go into us simultaneously and we're eaten.

[1012] We're eating.

[1013] Our protein is robbed from our bodies.

[1014] But my thing is that, yeah, he's, I saw Eduardo, Blay, I saw you gazing at him.

[1015] And Blay, you were the one who, to be fair, before he showed up, and I'm trying to psych myself up the interview, you said, You know what?

[1016] I love him.

[1017] He's so the opposite of you, Conan.

[1018] Why would you say that?

[1019] Well, you know, I love his work, obviously.

[1020] Oh, so that's why he's the opposite of me. No, no, no. But I will say, and I don't, I'm trying to think of a way to say this that's not going to come off.

[1021] Just go for it.

[1022] Just go for it.

[1023] He's got such like, first of all, he's also very funny.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] Yeah.

[1026] Very chill, cool energy.

[1027] He just smiles at you and your your chest just opens up.

[1028] Now, I'm not saying around you that I'm not always on my guard.

[1029] and you give off this energy that maybe is, it's like being near high voltage lines.

[1030] Yeah.

[1031] But he's just, I felt just like, I would just melt it.

[1032] Didn't he like, just being around him, he's intense.

[1033] He just chill.

[1034] Blaine did say if they were going to do a remake of twins, they would do it with you and John Berndtsoe.

[1035] So instead of Schwarzenegger and DeVito, yeah.

[1036] John Berthal would be the Schwarzenegger and I would be the DeVito.

[1037] That's correct.

[1038] Yeah.

[1039] Okay.

[1040] Well, I don't take that as an insult at all.

[1041] I admire, I admire DeVito a great deal.

[1042] I think he's a terrific.

[1043] performer and actor and I'd be happy to fill his shoes.

[1044] Completely agree.

[1045] I just think it's, what you're saying is that I give off an electrical charge that makes you tense and right now you're clenching.

[1046] Your whole body is clenching.

[1047] I'm nervous.

[1048] You're going to like, I know you're, I'm out of arm's reach, but I'm still nervous.

[1049] You're going to come around the table.

[1050] Hold on.

[1051] I'm trying to see if I could reach you.

[1052] No, I can.

[1053] I'm nervous.

[1054] No, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[1055] I always identify people who we always look towards what we're not.

[1056] And I'm like looking at John Bernthal and I'm thinking, yeah, he's got some groundedness that I don't have, and I'm sure, please God, have this be true, that there are some qualities I have that John wishes he had, that's not happening now, is it?

[1057] No, there are.

[1058] John's driving home right now.

[1059] John's driving home thinking like there's no quality Conan has that I want.

[1060] No, no, no, but what I'm saying is I do understand why everyone here is smitten with John.

[1061] Same thing with Goldblum.

[1062] There's an otherworldly X factor.

[1063] Like he's, Bernthal's got old school Hollywood charisma less bogey or even he reminds me of Fred Ward.

[1064] Do you remember that actor that rest in peace?

[1065] Oh, Reno Williams strikes again.

[1066] Well, actually, the adventures are Reno Williams.

[1067] Actually, no, it's Rima Williams.

[1068] The adventure begins.

[1069] Oh, my God.

[1070] I almost took my own life right there.

[1071] I think of him in the right stuff.

[1072] Yes, exactly.

[1073] Tremors.

[1074] Yeah, Tremors, yeah.

[1075] Great actor.

[1076] Yeah, no, he has that kind of, he has that kind of.

[1077] energy.

[1078] And you also see it in Remo Williams, here we go.

[1079] Okay, it's not real.

[1080] It's not real.

[1081] Wait, it's not what it's called?

[1082] It's not what it's called.

[1083] Don't even joke about.

[1084] Don't even joke about it.

[1085] What's it called?

[1086] It's called Remo Williams Adventure Begins.

[1087] I think that's what I said.

[1088] Oh, it's not what you said.

[1089] Well, anyway, he's in tremors.

[1090] He's in right stuff.

[1091] And Rimo Williams, one more time.

[1092] Cast a deadly spell.

[1093] Okay, fine, but let's just go back a little and correct our errors here.

[1094] Remo Remo Williams gets it done every time and let's have fun.

[1095] We're having fun.

[1096] Okay.

[1097] Let's take this seriously.

[1098] Okay.

[1099] I think what I thought was cool about him.

[1100] I mean, a lot of the actors are like, oh, I had a theater background and I went to, like, school for it and stuff.

[1101] But then he comes and he's like, oh, yeah, I got beat up by people.

[1102] I got beat up.

[1103] I fought a lot of people.

[1104] And that's just like, that's just cool.

[1105] Well, can I say something?

[1106] And I want to just stress to our listeners.

[1107] I don't think one should try to get beat up.

[1108] I just don't.

[1109] I think, and Sona's putting the message out there to a lot of impressionable young people listening.

[1110] That's just cool to get just beat up.

[1111] No, I didn't mean it like that.

[1112] No, but you know what I mean?

[1113] You know that I'd been in many a scrape in my day.

[1114] No, you haven't.

[1115] You talk about the one fight you've been in all often.

[1116] Because I can't remember them all.

[1117] So many times I've woken up on a floor with glass in my ear.

[1118] No, that's a different.

[1119] It's the one where they smashed your nose in.

[1120] That's the one fight you've been in.

[1121] That's okay.

[1122] There's nothing wrong with that.

[1123] It wasn't even a fight.

[1124] And it's going to turn out later on that I fell asleep in front of an Acer computer.

[1125] I remember what time you told us you got and fell on the keyboard.

[1126] You got a big gash in your leg because, I was carrying trash.

[1127] And somebody put a tuna fish can in the...

[1128] Oh, my God.

[1129] That doesn't count.

[1130] You should not say that story.

[1131] You could at least feel like John Bernthal.

[1132] I got punched once.

[1133] One time, my mother said you have to take out the trash.

[1134] I was wearing shorts.

[1135] And someone had put a tuna fish can in the trash bag.

[1136] Like you do.

[1137] And it chunked up against my...

[1138] I still have the scar there.

[1139] I had appendicitis.

[1140] Oh, my God.

[1141] And I had shingles in one eye.

[1142] So don't tell me, I haven't.

[1143] been in my share of scrapes in my time.

[1144] How do you not know the authentic title to Remo Williams?

[1145] Yeah.

[1146] I've constantly, I've constantly been in the shit.

[1147] Constantly, constantly been in the shit.

[1148] There are shingles in one eye.

[1149] Yes, I did.

[1150] So you had shingle?

[1151] I had shingle in one eye.

[1152] And tell me that wasn't the equivalent of being in a massive prison brawl you know I've gotten into it and I'll get into it again I'm a real a brawler a king mixer once I use the once you see these hamhawks coming your way you best find cover that's what I say I'm getting the sign to wrap nothing more intimidating than a rhymer that guy just rhymed we better get the fuck out of here Hey, it worked for Ali.

[1153] That's all they feared was his rhymes.

[1154] Oh, my God.

[1155] All right.

[1156] Trust me. I'm an amazing brawler.

[1157] Let's just leave it at that.

[1158] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend.

[1159] With Conan O 'Brien, Sonam of Sessian, and Matt Goreley.

[1160] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[1161] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solitaroff, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at Earwolf.

[1162] theme song by the White Stripes Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino Take it away Jimmy Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair And our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples Engineering by Will Bechtin Additional Production Support by Mars Melnick Talent Booking by Paula Davis Gina Batista and Britt Kahn You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode Got a question for Conan?

[1163] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -251 -2821 and leave a message.

[1164] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[1165] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[1166] This has been a team Coco production in association with Earwolf.