#1038 - Billy Corgan

[0] All right, we're live.

[1] What's up?

[2] Boom.

[3] I know, weird, right?

[4] Yeah, here we go.

[5] Nice to meet you, man. Thank you.

[6] Yeah, I can't believe we've never met.

[7] Yeah, well, I've been a fan of your music for a long time, so it's kind of cool to see you in person.

[8] I've worked out conversely, so it's cool.

[9] So, I mean, I don't mean to just jump right into this, but it kind of freaked me out that you have involvement in pro wrestling.

[10] Do you own the NWA?

[11] Yeah, I bought the National Wrestling Alliance, the oldest brand in the world.

[12] I was working for TNA, you know, as president for hot.

[13] second.

[14] Then I got fired.

[15] You were president of TNA?

[16] Yeah, yeah, that's a crazy story.

[17] I don't know how much you want to get into that.

[18] Get into it.

[19] Well, you know, Dixie Carter owned a TNA.

[20] I knew her through the years.

[21] I used to go to shows and stuff like that.

[22] And at some point, they approached me about investing.

[23] I said, no. Then they offered me a job.

[24] I started working for the company.

[25] Then they started having money problems.

[26] I started putting money in.

[27] And through the contrivance of all that, then I started getting more power in the company and putting in more money.

[28] So then it became like, well, if I'm going to put in all this money and I'm going to have all this power, I want to run the show.

[29] They basically said that was cool.

[30] And then the minute I had the spot, it was like Game of Thrones.

[31] They all started to kind of kill me off.

[32] And then, you know, wrestling's weird because you have this weird mix of reality and fantasy.

[33] And it's hard sometimes to know where one thing, and the fans get into both the behind the scenes and the fantasy.

[34] So no one's quite sure sometimes where the blur is.

[35] And yeah, it got pretty crazy.

[36] It's while there's a lawsuit.

[37] A real lawsuit?

[38] Yeah, no, I sued.

[39] I sued.

[40] And this is a quick, funny thing.

[41] People continually write that I lost the lawsuit.

[42] I never lost the lawsuit.

[43] I lost one of the motions, which led to them me negotiating, and we settled out of court.

[44] But the judge, the contract that they signed that would have allowed me to take over the company under the motion that I had filed, the judge basically dismissed my motion because because the contract they had signed with me was illegal under Tennessee law, even though a Tennessee lawyer had negotiated on the company's behalf and signed it.

[45] Whoa.

[46] That sounds like some double -cross wrestling type.

[47] Yeah, yeah, so it'd be like if you did a contract with me and then I sued you, and then the judge says, well, even though Joe had a California lawyer signed, it's illegal under California law, so therefore the contract's meaningless.

[48] It was bizarre.

[49] How does one go from smashing pumpkins?

[50] to pro wrestling and then go so deep that you're like an owner.

[51] Yeah, I know.

[52] It's pretty wild.

[53] Unexpected for a lot of people, right?

[54] Yeah, yeah, no, I get that a lot.

[55] And I've actually learned over time it's just best to keep the world separate because the music fans don't want to hear anything about the wrestling thing.

[56] I mean, they just don't want to hear that I'm a bit goofy, but they just don't want to hear about the wrestling thing.

[57] They asked the worlds to be kept separate.

[58] Did they ever get mad at you?

[59] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[60] Yeah, because I can imagine.

[61] You know, and you can appreciate it.

[62] It kills the gimmick.

[63] They want me to be this goth vampire guy or whatever.

[64] And then it's like, and then there's pro wrestling.

[65] It's just, it just totally kills the gimmick.

[66] It's really funny, though.

[67] I think it's awesome.

[68] Yeah.

[69] I love when people just get into what they like.

[70] Well, that's something I appreciate about you, you know what I mean?

[71] Like, I've watched where you guys go deep dives and MMA and other things.

[72] It's like, I think it's cool to have multiple interests.

[73] It's the Renaissance Man thing.

[74] Yeah, well, I think for some.

[75] reason people shy away from that because they think folks are going to be confused.

[76] I don't care.

[77] Yeah.

[78] Good for you.

[79] That's awesome.

[80] Yeah.

[81] No, growing up in Chicago, there was a really rich wrestling history in Chicago growing up.

[82] And my great grandmother watched wrestling.

[83] I mean, it was like I grew up in the, at four years old, I'm watching Dick the Bruiser on television.

[84] And this is also the era of hockey fights and, um, roller derby.

[85] Oh, roller derby.

[86] So we'd watch hockey, pro wrestling.

[87] You know, it was in the family.

[88] Yeah.

[89] And then later I found out that my other great grandmother also watched wrestling.

[90] So both sides of the family, both great -grandmother's watching wrestling.

[91] So it's just in the blood.

[92] I guess we like the, we like the carny of it all.

[93] Well, I'm always amazed at roller derby never made like a serious comeback.

[94] They tried.

[95] They kind of did the, you know, the tattooed girls doing roller derby, hipstery type of thing.

[96] It had a moment there.

[97] Well, I know I had a friend who was into it and she, you know, was that type.

[98] I just thought, well, that seems like something that would catch on today.

[99] Yeah, they transitioned from like roller derby to suicide girls.

[100] Yeah.

[101] You got to get a little hotter.

[102] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[103] You can be thick and be a roller derby girl.

[104] You could eat all the carbs you like.

[105] The roller derby back in the day was huge.

[106] Yeah.

[107] I mean, they were doing like packed arenas and stuff.

[108] That's crazy.

[109] Well, it's fun to watch.

[110] It's pretty wild.

[111] Yeah, and you see them go after each other and skating around.

[112] It's pretty aggressive.

[113] It's fun.

[114] It's like racing plus fighting and hip -checking each other.

[115] You know, it's early days memory, but I remember thinking And, you know, there's something sort of hot about the whole thing.

[116] Yes.

[117] I think especially in Chicago, the women's roller derby was bigger than the men's.

[118] So that says something.

[119] Yeah, I didn't even know there was men's roller derby.

[120] Like, thinking of men's roller derby, I'm completely drawn a blank.

[121] It's just, I always associate it with, like, tough women.

[122] Yeah, yeah.

[123] That's what I'm saying.

[124] I think the women's thing actually had some sort of staying power where the men's, I think, it didn't have the same allure, maybe?

[125] Yeah, yeah, I guess.

[126] You're my age.

[127] You remember Killer Kowalski?

[128] Of course, yeah.

[129] Yeah, yeah.

[130] I remember watching that when I was a kid in Boston, watching it on regular TV, you know?

[131] No, those guys were great.

[132] I mean, it's a golden age.

[133] It's like anything, you can go back and sort of romanticize it.

[134] And I think that's part of what we're trying to do is, that's the cool thing about the NWO is we actually possess that history.

[135] And so our job is to sort of update it, you know, to bring that tough guy thing back into the modern world in a way that sort of doesn't insult the audience's intelligence.

[136] So the NWA is that older than the WVE?

[137] Yeah, yeah.

[138] 1948 is the NWA.

[139] Whoa.

[140] And the cool thing about the NWA's history was you had all these rival promoters, including the McMan's in the Northeast, that eventually sort of formed a kind of ad hoc association to create a better business.

[141] In essence, get everybody on the same page.

[142] And what they would do is they named one champ, and the champ would rotate through the different territories, come in and take on the whoever was the local guy.

[143] They'd build up the local guy, and then a guy like Rick Flair would come in and beat the local guy.

[144] And it would always be like a bit of a scrum, and then he'd come back for a second.

[145] There would be a cage match, and then Rick Flair would move on to the next territory.

[146] And that's how those guys rotated around.

[147] Then everybody made more money.

[148] Wow.

[149] And then the government got involved at different points because there was collusion.

[150] There you go.

[151] There's Rick Flair with our belt, actually.

[152] I follow him on Instagram.

[153] Yeah.

[154] Yeah, I mean, Rick's, Rick and Dusty Roads are probably the, probably the two most prominent champs that the NWA had.

[155] So just to be the owner of that history is like so humbling for me as a fan.

[156] It's like, wow.

[157] That is so cool.

[158] Yeah, that's pretty wild, actually.

[159] He's quite a character and still is.

[160] Like, even on Instagram, the stories are legendary.

[161] The stories are absolutely legendary.

[162] The 30 for 30 just came out about them, and I'm hearing it's like one of the best ones ever made.

[163] It just came out like the other day, maybe two days ago.

[164] Oh, cool.

[165] And I'm not trying to speak for Rick, but, you know, there's an example of somebody where it's like the persona and the real -life person sort of blurred.

[166] Right.

[167] And it's hard to figure out who was who at any given time.

[168] You know, that's the case of like Dice Clay.

[169] Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

[170] He used to be Andrew Silverstein, and the Dice Man was a character that he used to do on stage.

[171] Is he now become...

[172] 100 % all day long.

[173] Manson's my friend, my friend's Marilyn Manson.

[174] He's the same way.

[175] It's like they become the gimmick at some point, and sometimes you're not sure who you're talking to.

[176] But at some point, you also have to respect that that's so...

[177] intrinsic to their world that maybe it's almost easier just to become the gimmick instead of having to her to live you don't have to turn it on and off yeah i'm the other way i've gone out of my way to kill the gimmick which really it actually hurts business and and people get mad at me because they want no they want the fantasy guy but i can't live like that right it's impossible for me so they want you to be almost like a caricature like a moody sads grumbling you know whatever, you know, that's why a lot of the stuff on me that's clickbait is based on the character that I both created and people want me to play.

[178] Wow.

[179] Like one of the biggest memes of last year or was about a year ago was like me at Disneyland.

[180] I know if you heard about that.

[181] So it's classic.

[182] I was on a ride and somebody took a picture of me on the ride.

[183] And for whatever reason, I just don't look happy at that particular moment.

[184] And I had this great to, in fact, the guy in the other room, my Tour Manor Jug was the guy sitting next to me in the photo.

[185] And there you go.

[186] look and it was like massive viral like that's perfect I mean and I had a great day like I met I met I met I met tons of fans I took pictures with everyone I love Disneyland I had this great day and that became like this massive thing of like see he's miserable even at Disneyland that's hilarious that's funny what a perfect picture yeah right so and it even ended up on family guy see look that's very funny man that's very funny that's got to be exhausting like having all these expectations that aren't necessarily they don't totally align with who you really are uh it used to be because i felt like i don't know is the keeper of my image or something i felt this responsibility to sort of manage it and at some point i just let it go yeah well for as i started to interrupt you but it's like at some point i decided crazy was better for business like i'm okay with people thinking i'm nuts it's totally okay because i'm the exact opposite of nuts you have to be you're certainly eccentric yeah that's fine you know i come from a long line of eccentrics i mean my father was a drug dealing gun toting musician was it really madman yeah yeah drug dealing oh yeah what kind of drugs you name it really oh yeah wow i mean it's a it's like quick stories like when i was a kid my father was a musician so i remember i used to like i wasn't allowed to touch his guitars but i was a lot to look at them so i remember one day i was walking past the bedroom and i saw a guitar case under the bed and I was like oh I wonder what that is did he get a new guitar so I went slip the thing out and I flipped it was it was a sawed off shotgun in a guitar case well just lay in there you know in the house or you know I'd go to open something it would be like 10 pounds of weed you know it's just that was the that was the world I grew up in where'd you grow up uh outside of Chicago about an hour outside wow but yeah my dad my dad got arrested a bunch of times and massive bus and drug it's just crazy and got and people knocking on the door in the middle of the night and and getting shot at.

[187] My dad says he's been shot at nine times.

[188] Never hit?

[189] No. That's lucky.

[190] Stabbed two or three times.

[191] Jesus Christ.

[192] My favorite story, one of my favorite stories my father was he was doing a drug deal or he was buying drugs and so he stopped somewhere and the guy got in the car and then the guy pulled out a gun and stuck it in his ribs and did like give me all your money.

[193] And my dad looked and said, kill me. basically because he was unhappy so he figured he said just kill me and the guy flipped out and left the car Jesus Christ and he told you all this Oh yeah I got a lot of these stories post haste yeah Is he still around?

[194] Oh yeah he's still around He's still kicking What How is it for him Like seeing you as a son Um That is a weird thing Because in the beginning He was very dismissive Of the music?

[195] Yeah he was not supportive Of me playing the guitar And my father was a great musician.

[196] I mean, I mean that with great sincerity.

[197] My father was truly talented.

[198] And in the beginning, he was not supportive at all, didn't want me to play the guitar, didn't want me involved in music.

[199] And even after I put on my first album, which went on to be, at the time, was like the most successful independent album ever released.

[200] So it wasn't like an insignificant moment in my life.

[201] My dad would just kind of shrugged her shoulders.

[202] It was like, yeah, it's okay.

[203] You know, it was like, what are you talking about?

[204] Like, you know, and if you know my early, It's like, you know, it's guitar heavy.

[205] There's cool stuff, solos, and he was just like, eh.

[206] It wasn't until my second album, and the band blew up, then he started to kind of changed his tune.

[207] Then he became more supportive.

[208] Then he got really weirdly jealous.

[209] And then he started doing weird things.

[210] Like, he'd call me and be like, if you need me to write you any songs.

[211] Like, I'm like, number one.

[212] And he's like, he's asking me to write songs.

[213] It was so weird.

[214] But he was also on a lot of drugs.

[215] And so there was that, you know, there's that interweave of like, and weird stuff, like, you know, You know, one day he calls me and he's like, my dad always played this cool 1964 Purple Flying V that was like his guitar.

[216] You know, and, you know, my dad to me was like a star and he still is in my mind.

[217] So he told me one day, you know, when I die, you know, I'm going to give you my guitar.

[218] And then fast forward four years later, he calls me up.

[219] He's like, yeah, I'm going to put this guitar on eBay.

[220] So do you want to buy it?

[221] No. Yeah, so I had to buy.

[222] The guitar you're supposed to get when he dies.

[223] Fuck.

[224] Yeah, just weird stuff like that.

[225] It's been a lot of that.

[226] Anybody who's growing up in those types of situations knows what I'm talking about.

[227] It's like wacky world.

[228] You're never quite sure what angle is going on because the need for money, depending on what situation is going on, you know?

[229] Yeah.

[230] But you reinforce this idea that I've always had that everyone that I know that's interesting came from a fucked up childhood.

[231] I couldn't argue against it.

[232] It's hard because do you have children?

[233] I have one son.

[234] Yeah, he's just going to be two.

[235] It's, for me, it's so, it's a conflict because I take care of my kids and I'm around and I give them a lot of love and they're not fucked up.

[236] And I'm like, damn, my kid's going to be boring.

[237] Like all of my friends, all of them come from fucked up households.

[238] It's all chaos.

[239] And they created, the pressure created these diamonds.

[240] Yeah, there's something to be said for the adversity.

[241] And my dad would even say to me weird things like, it's good.

[242] you had a fucked up childhood because it made you successful.

[243] Yeah.

[244] And I'm thinking, like, I would have preferred, like, Disneyland with you.

[245] You know what I mean?

[246] Maybe I wouldn't have been miserable at Disneyland if it wasn't for you, dad.

[247] But, man, I think your story's amazing, though.

[248] I mean, I know it probably sucked growing up like that.

[249] But, damn, to be able to tell everybody your dad was this guitar playing, gun -tote and drug deal and psycho.

[250] I mean, that's a badass story.

[251] Yeah, there's this, I think you appreciate this in the gangster tradition.

[252] So there was this thing that happened when I was probably about 10 or 12 where there was a local club and, you know, and my dad played there all the time.

[253] And I came back to the house one day and the house was full of, it's like smoky equipment.

[254] Like you could smell like smoke fire.

[255] And he said, oh, the club burned down.

[256] And so they had ran in the fire or retrieved the gear, some kind of story like that.

[257] And so that was the story for years was he was.

[258] eating across the street, pancakes at four in the morning, and saw the club burn down.

[259] Years later, I heard the real story.

[260] He was in a car with a chick doing whatever, and he saw some mob guy walk in the club with gasoline, light the club on fire.

[261] So he knew it was arson, but because he knew it was mob -related, he couldn't say anything.

[262] And it's like every story is like there's the real story and the story I got when I was a kid.

[263] Jesus.

[264] So he ran into the fire just to get equipment?

[265] Yeah, I think he ran in and got his guitar.

[266] he was able to save his guitar and then and then of course the police came to question him because I knew he was there on the scene or something and of course he said I didn't see anything because he didn't want to die because Chicago with the mob I mean forget about especially back then in the 70s it was like they ran the town they got Kennedy elected well yeah I mean that I mean the stories about Chicago are legendary you know what I mean like people used to come to Chicago back the day it's a little bit different now people come back man the city's so clean it's so organized it's like yeah because it's run by you know copos all over the city you know every ward had its capo and yeah Chicago has this uniquely violent history and even to this day you know what with what's going on the south side with all the gang violence it's it's shocking to me as somebody who was born in Chicago I still live in Chicago that it's just like we've normalized this insane violence yeah in our in this community you know People don't even realize.

[267] I think most people have no idea how much gun violence goes on in Chicago.

[268] I heard the other day, I could be wrong, and I'm sure he can find.

[269] But I think somebody said the other day, there's been 3 ,700 shootings in Chicago already this year.

[270] And I think we're already over 600 gun fatalities.

[271] And this is like every year now.

[272] Wow.

[273] I mean, I just, and even Trump at some point floated out, like maybe they should bring the National Guard.

[274] I wish they would do something.

[275] It's just such a, this generational tragedy that just keeps going.

[276] And nothing seems.

[277] to happen.

[278] Yeah, and it seems to have a lot of momentum behind it.

[279] Like the murders, they make people have revenge murders and then it just piles on top of each other.

[280] And it doesn't seem like there's any stopping it in sight.

[281] Well, here's the thing.

[282] And this is the classic tale.

[283] Now it was reported the other day that the carjackings in Chicago have gone up like 200 percent.

[284] And now those carjackings are filtering into the nice neighborhoods.

[285] So now you're going to start seeing some action because now it's blowing up past the sort of, you know, I mean, look at that.

[286] The shot clock.

[287] A person is shot every two minutes and 20 seconds.

[288] A person is murdered every 12 hours, oh, two hours and 20 minutes.

[289] A person is murdered every 12 hours and 23 minutes.

[290] That's a lot.

[291] Wow.

[292] I mean, it's my home and I just, you know.

[293] I have a guy that I met when I was down there.

[294] he was a driver, he drove us around, and he was saying that he used to be a cop, and that what happened was they arrested some of the top -level drug dealers.

[295] I've heard this exact same story.

[296] And as soon as they did that, there became this power vacuum.

[297] Yeah, for years, I got a little inside information.

[298] For years, what I'd heard is that they had this sort of like, as long as you stay on this side of the street, we'll kind of, you know, we'll look the other way for this, but you've got to keep your people in line over here.

[299] Right.

[300] And I know enough people in the PD that that was sort of the general understanding.

[301] like even like I remember one time because I knew somebody worked in the in the in like the gang task force I was like how come there's always horrors on the bridge on Friday night like don't you guys see the 50 whores on the bridge and they said no we that's where we tell all the horrors to go so we can protect them we'd rather have them there so we can keep an eye on them and we know it's going to happen anyway so better we control it right so that was the way Chicago sort of operated was like we'll tolerate crime up to this level and twice a year we'll run everybody in just to kind of make it look good in the paper and then apparently whatever they did that created this power vacuum that's just what I've heard I don't know empirically.

[302] Well this guy was a former cop and the way he was describing it was pretty absolute he's like they made a mistake this solution that you were saying of like kind of like saying hey keep it over here or keep it under wraps and we'll arrest a certain amount of people it sounds like maybe that's the only way to manage it.

[303] Well the one thing I have heard from people that are in those communities is that literally the, and this maybe supports what you're saying, is that the power divisions are like block to block.

[304] So it's almost like an insurgency where it's like two blocks versus two blocks versus one block versus three blocks.

[305] So literally if you're walking on the wrong side of the street, it's not even like neighborhood to neighborhood.

[306] It's like block to block, which is crazy.

[307] And just growing up in that neighborhood, having that be your normal as a child and then, you know, growing into adulthood, around that and having just used to people getting shot, used to shooting people.

[308] I mean, if there's that many people getting shot and that many gunshots going off, everybody must be common.

[309] I mean, it must be common to everyone.

[310] Yeah, I don't know.

[311] It's crazy.

[312] That's just heartbreaking.

[313] It's such a unique town, too.

[314] It's an amazing city.

[315] It really is.

[316] Yeah, I mean, we have this weird bare -knuckle history.

[317] Yeah.

[318] And it's still there.

[319] You know, no amount of yuppies moving and has changed this sort of working class, of ethos.

[320] Well, it's sort of symbolized by the food, that giant thick pizza.

[321] Yeah, we like to eat.

[322] That pizza is insane.

[323] I used to deliver those pizzas, by the way.

[324] Did you really?

[325] Yeah, that was one of my gigs.

[326] I bet it builds your arms up.

[327] Those things are fucking heavy.

[328] First time I ate a Chicago deep ditch pizza, I was like, okay, is this really a pizza?

[329] Like, what do we call?

[330] This is a casserole.

[331] Yeah.

[332] Yeah.

[333] But it's like, it's hearty people, too.

[334] it's like there's something about Chicago that seems to me to have like the momentum of the old day still deeply entrenched in it whereas that doesn't seem the case in LA and a lot of other big cities yeah it's just like kind of weird yuppie yeahppy thing I call it yepies I don't know what you want to call it but it's like South Park did that episode where it's like it's all like once the whole foods moves in like everyone's supposed to live a certain way right did you see that episode it's like but it's like this funny bit about like how the the Whole Food sort of anchors down this new way of life.

[335] Some kind of like, you know, riff on that.

[336] I bet it does.

[337] I bet it does in some way.

[338] You know, it's this idea of sort of like a, you can drop this homogenous idea of what modern culture is like in any place and it will just sort of riff out.

[339] Like a spore.

[340] Yeah, it's like we've got the Whole Foods and we've got the, you know, the Starbucks and now we're all going to be nice to each other or something.

[341] It's like a weird, you know what I mean?

[342] We're all just going to start behaving better because, you know, whatever.

[343] Yeah.

[344] I think you understand the joke.

[345] No, I do.

[346] You know, I think, but again, saying your environment that you grew up in, this chaos and then coming from Chicago and coming from, you know, the stories you're telling about your dad, that had to contribute to, like, the deepness and intensity of your music, right?

[347] I don't know.

[348] I certainly revolted against suburban life.

[349] Yeah.

[350] I mean, the suburban life of that world, it's just, I just.

[351] I just couldn't take it.

[352] Yeah, man. I just couldn't take it.

[353] The strip mall vibe, whatever that was.

[354] I just, oh.

[355] Rout in a cage, right?

[356] Yeah.

[357] Well, the great thing is then I traded one imprisonment, suburbia, for, you know, rock and roll aesthetics and, you know, who gets to say who's integral and, you know, who's cool and not cool.

[358] Oh, my God.

[359] That drove me insane, too.

[360] Who's selling out?

[361] Yeah.

[362] I mean, the first line of, um, um, um, um, um, um, you know, the first line of, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, the first line of our second album is freak out and give in doesn't matter what you believe in you know it's like you know it's like you got to you got to play by now you got to play by these rules you got to kiss this ring and you know well music's always a weird thing too is that people really enjoy you when they're the only ones to know about you and then as you started getting bigger and bigger they start looking for holes yeah we blew that up early though yeah we blew that we blew that we blew that up really early we made a lot of enemies really early, which is crazy because, I mean, the enemies I made in the early 90s, I mean, I still have them.

[363] I mean, they're still sort of lurking out there in various holes.

[364] It's weird.

[365] It's like those, those, you know, inner scene rivalries never end, you know?

[366] Between bands or?

[367] It's like, I've had weird experiences with, like, people, not with Nirvana people, but like people who were in the Nirvana world, they're still like this weird, like, because I'm from pumpkin world.

[368] Right.

[369] Like sometimes I'll have weird stuff happen and I'll dig down and find out it was like somebody who used to work in Nirvana world trying to cut my ankles 27 years later.

[370] Like so weird.

[371] Like so parochial.

[372] The whole Nirvana scene is a very strange scene.

[373] You know, whenever the main guy commits suicide in this oddly conspiratorial way, did you watch that fucked up movie that soaked and bleached?

[374] A lot of people don't know.

[375] I was like sort of around for a lot of that stuff.

[376] So I know a lot of stuff that I've never sort of talked about.

[377] So for me, watching that stuff is like, it's, A, it's replaying something I don't want to replay.

[378] And B, I know a lot of the stuff is not based on fact because I was around for a lot of it.

[379] And no one's ever talked to me about it.

[380] So people tried to pin me out, like, in a Q &A with fans and ask me questions.

[381] Like, I'm suddenly going to just talk about it.

[382] Right.

[383] You know what I mean?

[384] Yeah, that documentary was so strange.

[385] It's like, how does someone get away with that?

[386] Like, the recreations?

[387] Like, if you weren't there, you don't know what the fuck they said.

[388] So if you don't know what the fuck they said and you're putting words in these actors' mouths and having them play it out, like, you're just, this should be illegal.

[389] Like, because you're kind of, you know what I'm saying?

[390] It's like you're, and especially when you're talking about a murder mystery.

[391] Like you're, you're saying that it wasn't a suicide, you're at least putting out the idea that it might be a murder.

[392] And the way you're doing it is by manufacturing words that you have no idea if they were ever said.

[393] It's just complete fiction.

[394] Yeah, yeah.

[395] So, like, that's the same.

[396] I was around for the before, sort of during, and certainly a lot after.

[397] And I know a lot of stuff that, again, I know is not in the public domain.

[398] And so I go with what I know.

[399] Right.

[400] You know what I mean.

[401] Yeah, but it's that whole Nirvana thing was, I mean, I remember the first time I heard Nirvana.

[402] I was a kid in Boston and this buddy of mine played it for us.

[403] And we had never heard anything like that.

[404] We were like, whoa.

[405] Yeah.

[406] This is a new thing.

[407] Just fantastic.

[408] A new thing, right?

[409] Like a new, like, every now and man. And here's a crazy little Boston statistic for you.

[410] We once played, it was Nirvana, Pumpkins, and Bullitt LaValta.

[411] We played at that little club.

[412] It was like an alt club across from Fenway.

[413] I can't remember what it's called.

[414] Axis or...

[415] Right, right, yeah.

[416] But you know what I'm talking about.

[417] But we played there, like, I don't know, 92.

[418] It wasn't even sold out.

[419] Oh, wow.

[420] That's amazing.

[421] It's like 700 people kind of thing.

[422] That's 700 people with an awesome story.

[423] Yeah, yeah, right?

[424] Wow.

[425] So you're working with Rick Rubin now.

[426] Yeah, yeah.

[427] That's awesome.

[428] Yeah, Rick's fantastic.

[429] What is that like, though, for you being like a guy who's kind of like, you've kind of controlled everything before, right?

[430] Yeah, totally.

[431] So what is it like for you to have Rubin in the mix?

[432] Yeah, well, Rick's a friend.

[433] So for me, it was like I was sort of at a low point and he kind of picked me up when I was down.

[434] So it was like I didn't mind sort of trusting him with like the head part of it all.

[435] Kind of like you deal with that part.

[436] going to sort of be the performer and the weird guy in the corner.

[437] Did it give you relief?

[438] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[439] I felt like it allowed me to focus on the music and the performance and sort of just freed me to just, you know, let whatever, because sometimes you can psych yourself out.

[440] I don't know if it makes any sense.

[441] Like, you can have a really good song, you know it's a good song, and then you start second guessing yourself, and then you start thinking, well, maybe this song's not good enough.

[442] And then that'll infiltrate into your performance as opposed to being free, like, hey, I've just got a good song and if that one doesn't work I've got another good song so letting Rick kind of do the picking and choosing and that's a good take and that's a good song it was just like okay I'm just gonna kind of just go down this road it took me back to sort of a more innocent way of approaching the work and I'm very grateful to him for that that's awesome yeah it's got to be quite a mind fuck to create something and then practice it and rehearse it over and over again and tweak it and mess with and not know really like not not almost not be able to be objective anymore yeah well the weird thing is is is i hope people can appreciate it how i mean it is like at one point when i my ear was really to the ground i was able to do that i was both able to be objective and subjective be the writer and be the producer right and i hit a lot of home runs so then you get kind of like i know what i'm doing right so then when it stops working you have two choices you can blame yourself which is the natural thing you should do or you can blame others and when you start blaming others now you're in this hall of mirrors yeah yeah you know instead of raising your hand saying okay i've had a good run now i need it's like getting a coach or something like maybe a guy goes on a losing streak you need to bring in a new coach just to say i think you need to work on your offense you know what i mean just somebody to tweak you yeah but when you're flying a thousand miles an hour and you're selling gazillions of records and making all this money and you're surrounded by a bunch of sycophants they're not going to tell you, hey, man, you need, you need, you know, you need the doctor to come in and kind of sort of search your head out.

[443] Yeah.

[444] So then you start going this way and then that's when it gets like Hall of Mirrors.

[445] So that's where, that's where my own hubris sort of got in my own way.

[446] I couldn't accept that I got on a losing streak and then, you know, go to somebody like Rick and say, hey, I need some help.

[447] I need some objective help.

[448] Did you feel yourself like when you were listening to the music that you were creating?

[449] Did you feel like you were on a losing streak?

[450] No. No. So it sounded.

[451] I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't intellectually understand.

[452] understand why I was failing.

[453] It didn't make any sense to me. And sometimes it's just generational.

[454] It's the market changes, whatever.

[455] It's not personal.

[456] It feels incredibly personal, which is why it's easier to blame somebody else.

[457] Like, you don't understand the depth of my work here.

[458] I'm so deep and you you're not following my metapath or something.

[459] And look, most entertainment is popular, right?

[460] I mean, you're a comedian.

[461] I mean, it's like, if you got to tell a bunch of jokes and the audience doesn't laugh, whose fault is it?

[462] Well, the mindful fuck of music to me has always been very fascinating because you guys create it in like a vacuum almost and then you bring it to the people like when you release an album they get it and it's done it's like holy shit here it is and you know a big fan plays it for the first time and they're listening to it they're like oh whereas we have ideas and I need an audience to create like I need to be around them I can't I can only create so much on a lap top most of it has to be like fine -tuned and refined so by the time i record something i already know it's already been tested right so that's go back to my point if you get on a winning streak and you're you're creating things in a bubble and then they work well then you're you want to take all the credit for it you forget all the thousand hours in the bedroom that you listen to jimmy hendricks or you know bow house or merciful fate or whatever you know like that gave you all these ideas you You know, you don't want to give them credit.

[463] You want to be the author of your own success.

[464] And when it starts patting you on the back and...

[465] Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt.

[466] No, you're very introspective in that regard.

[467] Like, you have a very...

[468] Failure would do that to you.

[469] But you say failure, though, but you still have massive amounts of fans.

[470] You're still deeply respected.

[471] Yeah, I'm weird in that I've always been willing to talk about the process, which, again, is anti -gimic.

[472] But also, I've always approached it more like a performance.

[473] artist in that I'm after the bigger message of how work intersects with fame, intersects with personal feeling, intersects with personality and how people perceive things.

[474] Like, I like all that weird Andy Kaufman uncomfortability.

[475] That's part of my attraction.

[476] So I've been willing to use myself as the battering ram, which is how I end up becoming a meme.

[477] Right.

[478] Because people latch on to these personalities I've created, which of course are ancillary to my real personality.

[479] But they don't necessarily want to give me credit that I'm a sort of controller of the forces at play.

[480] So if I say something dumb, people assume that I'm dumb.

[481] It's hard for them to assume that I'm saying something dumb on purpose because I want a reaction.

[482] Right.

[483] Yeah.

[484] When you become a hugely successful musician and your life becomes touring, big arenas, doing radio shows, getting on the bus, getting on the plane, all this stuff, does it make a difficult to have, like, the time or the actual experiences to continue to create.

[485] Yes, because you get so deoxygenated in the bubble that you start writing songs about being on tour.

[486] Yeah, like comedians will tell jokes about airline food.

[487] Yeah.

[488] You got to becoming sort of like, you're trying to take people in the insularity of your experience, but it's not that interesting.

[489] Right.

[490] And at some point, it becomes unrelatable.

[491] Well, I always said that about, like, I mean, there's a lot of bands, but some of the great Allman brothers, or Leonard Skinner, like, they had a bunch of songs about leaving, about getting away from women, you know?

[492] Lord, I was born a rambling man. Rightly so, yeah.

[493] There was so many songs about just getting away from women.

[494] Yeah, the other day I heard that Crosby Still's Nation song, it's like, just a song before I go.

[495] It's all about he's going on tour, and they go to the airport, and it's uncomfortable.

[496] It's like, it's such a going -on -tour song.

[497] Yeah.

[498] But it's like, it's really not that relatable to most people.

[499] No, to a lot of people, it's not.

[500] Yeah.

[501] I mean, Skinnerd had a shitload of those.

[502] They really did have quite a few songs about, like, getting the fuck out of Dodge.

[503] But they were good.

[504] Oh, dude.

[505] I'm a giant fan.

[506] I mean, they're probably the greatest thing to ever come out of Florida.

[507] It's arguable, you know.

[508] I'm trying to think who else came out of Florida.

[509] Jim Brewer?

[510] I thought we were just talking about music I thought we were just talking about music Yeah I don't have anything else When it comes to music Who out?

[511] Pitbull Yeah Yeah It's the So do you Did you feel it while it was happening Like when you're you're doing these Megatores and everything Do you feel like the staleness And the creation?

[512] I did Yeah I think what I tried to do has changed personalities, change musical directions to kind of re -infuse things, and it worked up until a point until my mother died, like in 96, in a weird three -month period, the drummer left the band, my mother died, and I got a divorce in like a six -month period.

[513] And so I try to use that as fuel to sort of pivot where I wanted to go musically, but I wrote this, very introspective dark record which a lot of people really like now but at the time it was like so antithetical to this big rock machine um yeah it was like castigated for being an idiot and i went from golden child to idiot you know and one fell swoop and yeah well so many great artists are a prisoner of their early success yeah and rightly so you know what i mean i have a much greater appreciation for the zeitgeist effect of the public i don't know if that makes any sense it's like it's like how many zeit guys did elvis have three you two's had two or three frank sinatra had two or three or four i mean there's something about when it all seems to make sense like the public's fascination the artist's place in time the work that's being created there's a sense of like familiarity but also something is happening and everybody wants to take part in it and so i have a much greater appreciation for that moment the ego of the artist wants to convince yourself that you're always in that moment and that's just impossible that's just impossible there's just no way it's just the cyclical nature of creation that's such an important thing to say for people listening for people that like struggle with this themselves hear some like you say that yeah it's actually kind of makes sense it's like it's like it's like a typical example it's like falling in love and expecting to feel that feeling forever right it's just not going to happen You're not going to feel the same.

[514] No. I would argue if you are, there's something wrong.

[515] You haven't matured into a deeper relationship.

[516] So in the same thing, an artist needs to mature into a deeper relationship with their work or their relationship with the public or their relationship with themselves.

[517] And if you can do that and you look at great examples, Johnny Cash, Neil Young, Tom Petty.

[518] When they get there, everybody comes back, Bob Dylan, because they think, okay, now you're giving me some new information.

[519] Yeah.

[520] This isn't just a riff on the thing that you.

[521] gave me before.

[522] And I think the public has shown over time the willingness and the ability to follow artists if they're willing, if they're able to go to that place where they mine out something new that actually is like a cultural contribution and not just sort of more of what they already know.

[523] I think that's so important for you to talk about.

[524] I'm so glad you do because for upcoming artists and in all sorts of genres, just people who are involved in creating to hear someone as successful as yourself talk about the various struggles of the mind and of momentum and the, you know, the different stages in various points of your career.

[525] Yeah.

[526] So important.

[527] Yeah.

[528] The music business plays this Jedi mind trick on you where the whole thing's set up to be rapacious and take advantage of your weakness.

[529] How so?

[530] Well, it's like I'll use the music business as an example.

[531] And I'm sure there's plenty of parallels across the entertainment spectrum.

[532] You struggle to get the contract and then the contract is sort of, you know, the indentured servitude type of thing.

[533] Our first contract was seven albums, essentially 14 years.

[534] So I signed that contract when I was 23.

[535] That's crazy.

[536] Okay, so I'm signing, at 23 years old, I'm signing a contract that's supposed to take me into 37.

[537] You're signing a contract for more than half your life.

[538] And if you look at the shelf life of most artists, it's four to...

[539] So they're basically anticipating your entire arc. That's so crazy.

[540] So you don't have any leverage.

[541] you know other than that they want to sign you you sign the deal and then it becomes this weird dance of like can i sustain success yeah if you get success and you have leverage they'll get out of your way because you're making them a lot of money but the minute you're not making them as much money then they step in and they start playing these jettie mind tricks on you we know what to do you know the public's going to forget about you i mean i've heard all these things like you know this kind of weird like yeah you're in the room but you know we're the arbiter of whether you can stay in the room.

[542] That's the weird position that record companies had for a long time that they don't seem to have anymore.

[543] I would argue against that.

[544] They still do?

[545] Well, they've moved to a different set of circumstances, and I'm not as conversant as I once was, but one thing they do with certain younger artists, but I think particularly more in the pop realm is they do these 360 deals, where it's like if you get a perfume deal, if you, like your whole world.

[546] They own you.

[547] We own a piece of your whole world.

[548] and fame is such a great quotient in American life now that you can see where kids would trade fame and be willing to give away the profit part.

[549] Well, they'll take a risk at the long -term ownership.

[550] Right.

[551] So let me jump in there.

[552] So if you actually survive the cut, let's call it phase one.

[553] You're successful, you're a name, and now you're in a place to either renegotiate or your deal is up or whatever.

[554] I once had a conversation with a very powerful music executive, And I said, and I was friends with the guy.

[555] So I was like, give me the insider psychology here.

[556] Now that I know the game that you run, what do you tell people like me when they get here?

[557] And he says, oh, it's just there's always a price.

[558] So they know that even if you get through the matrix of the whole thing and get out the other side, that there's just a dollar amount that we'll buy you back in.

[559] Whoa.

[560] They're not worried that you'll go independent.

[561] And in fact, if you look at a lot of the machinations of the music business over the last 20 years, especially with the rise of the internet, it's to keep people in the system.

[562] Yes.

[563] They don't want true independence.

[564] Right, but it seems like...

[565] Look no further than the deals that the record labels cut with the streaming services.

[566] They got into ownership, equity deals with the streaming services in an arrangement for them to have an equity position.

[567] They agreed to very low rates for the artist's music.

[568] Oh, so that's why...

[569] When you listen to Bob Dylan's song on Spotify, Bob Dylan's not getting a lot of money for that.

[570] But as Spotify and the other streaming services raise up in their equity position, the labels benefit.

[571] So the labels pimped out their own artist to take a greater equity position in a rising business.

[572] It's like, you see what I'm saying?

[573] Yeah.

[574] They weaken the artist's position to take a better position at the table themselves.

[575] That is fascinating.

[576] And they weaken the monetary position of compensation.

[577] in order to get equity in the company.

[578] Right.

[579] And now you see it where Metallicus management, for example, has come out, and especially YouTube's former manager, Paul McGinnis, come out.

[580] They're trying to take on YouTube now because YouTube's got this weird, funky position where they'll pay on license music, but they won't pay for covers.

[581] You know what I mean?

[582] YouTube's like one of the big targets of the business because whatever deal they agreed to with YouTube 10 years ago was super weak.

[583] But again, these are all machinations that go on above the artist's spot.

[584] Right.

[585] And a quick thing into your world, when McGregor leapt out and did the fight with Mayweather, he creates this whole different set of dynamics because he can run his own game.

[586] Yes.

[587] UFC can't pay him that kind of money.

[588] And last I heard, it's like maybe he's going to do another fight.

[589] So I don't want to get totally into that.

[590] But my point is, you see where those dynamics where people step outside the system, it changes the game.

[591] So it's actually kind of, you could, you know, now, and I don't want to, you know, I've never met Dana White, but if Dana White could go back in a time machine, maybe he'd pay May, McGregor more money to keep him in his world, because now that he's out.

[592] I don't think Connor would have accepted that.

[593] Okay, but, yeah, I think he recognized the unique opportunity that he's in, so he probably wanted to be a part of that.

[594] I'm talking about stuff as a fan.

[595] You're on the other side of the fence, but my point is, is when you see when somebody breaks out of the sort of the matrix of how the game is set up.

[596] It creates this weird thing.

[597] Yeah, and there are a few today though, that have kind of figured it out through YouTube and all these different online.

[598] I think Chance the Rapper, I don't know much about his business, but I know he's sort of worked out this other model for himself.

[599] Yeah, Jamie knows a lot about him.

[600] I know he's getting money from way other places than just the traditional record contracts.

[601] God bless you.

[602] He's got big deals from major companies like Sprite and other.

[603] And he's still independent, right?

[604] technically that's the word they would use to market him like he's an independent artist but he's got a machine behind him so I don't know if he's independent you know yeah I'm good friends with Sturgle Simpson and Sturgle's tried to educate me as to how the the record business keeps people in in the fold with the owning your merchandise and your likeness forever and all these different things it seems it seems crazy like we actually signed a clause and it said and this contract pertains to this universe and any universe not yet discovered what we signed that clause who wrote that the record company Jesus fucking what are they Scientology that is crazy like we literally had to sign a thing and it was like this contract pertains to this known universe and any universe not yet discovered that is fucking insane that is insane Like if someone found a parallel universe somewhere and they figured out they could sell music to them It's a parallel music they haven't heard the smashing pumpkins get over there quick Shoot a rocket chip filled with cash over there Well that you know why they put that in is because the When they transition to CDs The contracts didn't account for CDs And what they did it was a very it's a very classic thing is So they had to go back and renegotiate all the deals Because of the CD technology This would have been like, whatever, 80s.

[605] So they went to every artist and they said, look, it's this new technology, and we're not sure it's going to work.

[606] So you've got to take a price cut.

[607] We're only going to pay you 75 cents on the dollar so we could advance the new technology.

[608] Oh, Jesus Christ, they're dirty.

[609] The Spotify thing is dirty.

[610] That makes me uncomfortable hearing how they weaseled that, how they negotiated cheap prices for the performers, then they got an equity position in the company.

[611] So as the company grows, because they don't have to pay much and they get all this music, They get money from that.

[612] That is sneaky, dark fucking 3D chess shit.

[613] Game of Thrones, man. It is.

[614] Game of Thrones.

[615] But, I mean, obviously, it's an organism surviving in the face of Napster, right?

[616] Like Napster comes in, file sharing comes in, and they're like, holy shit.

[617] Okay, so the internet is just out there wild and free, and you can just download the music.

[618] The music is now digital.

[619] We can't control it, and it's just going.

[620] And it drives some people.

[621] I had Paul Stanley in here, and you can see the fucking.

[622] anger in his face when he's talking about people stealing music yeah i i i was one of the first people that came out for napster because i thought the music business should get in bed with napster in essence they let the monster grow right i thought they should have brought napster in house and made it like uh and given them whatever yeah but i mean if you want to be technical i mean the thing i help support i mean it probably cost me 30 million 40 million dollars Napster did yeah that whole world easy easy sure yeah yeah Yeah, I would imagine.

[623] And I'm not here to bitch.

[624] It's like the world went on and every, I'm not the only person.

[625] You know, so it wasn't targeted at me. I mean, and I supported it, so I got nothing to say.

[626] But I mean, yeah, at some point, when you can't pay your, you know, your stupid mortgage on your fifth property, you know, you know, sad at Disneyland, you know what I mean?

[627] It's like, I wish I had that money.

[628] But it's a weird dynamic of the Internet, of the free access of information.

[629] and then when a song, it's your creation, can just be boiled down to information, it's not that much different than forwarding an email in terms of people's access to it.

[630] It's very easy to get.

[631] The reason I supported in the beginning was I thought that the free association with music would create a more holistic fans finding what they want and that we would do well in that ecosystem.

[632] That turned out not to be the case.

[633] And I think now that it is sort of, set up in the streaming service world, now that's starting to be the case because people are finding us because it's sort of organized and their sort of institutional culture.

[634] But when it was free -wielding, I don't think we played the game well enough to take advantage of it.

[635] And, you know, a lot of trains just passed us by.

[636] Yeah, there was a lot of argument that people would find new music because of that in a way that they would have never found if the record companies and the radio stations had a lockdown on what got distributed.

[637] Somebody did a study, it's my one piece of empirical evidence, like the British Association of something, when it first became a real issue, did a study about people's fidelity to artists, whether they got something for free or they paid for it.

[638] And they found the loyalty was literally nil if they got it for free.

[639] That the actual act of purchasing something created a relationship that then created a sort of a desire to want to prove that the relationship was profitable in essence i buy your your comedy concert i didn't get it for free it makes me actually assess whether or not my my thing was a good investment and if you prove to me it is i become more loyal to you because now we're in a relationship that makes sense yeah like you want to justify your purchase it also makes sense like when um i was coming up and we do comedy clubs and they would paper the room and you know have uh give away free tickets.

[640] Oh, God, right.

[641] Audiences were terrible.

[642] They were terrible.

[643] You would think that people would be thankful.

[644] They got a free show.

[645] Nope.

[646] They were the worst, most unappreciative audiences because they didn't have anything invested in it.

[647] That's it.

[648] It totally makes sense.

[649] So you saw it coming.

[650] You saw Napster coming.

[651] You looked at it and you were like, this is something that is inevitable.

[652] We should probably figure out a way to be with them.

[653] There's a piece of video me from like 99 where I say the future of music is streaming.

[654] Whoa.

[655] Damn, you called that.

[656] They put me in some documentary.

[657] I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it.

[658] Yeah, I've always wondered.

[659] Like, we're not on Spotify or with this podcast, but they have podcasts on it.

[660] But I'm like, well, where's the money?

[661] Like, where's it going?

[662] Like, you want me to be on, right?

[663] But where's it going?

[664] Well, that's the, using Amazon as example, remember for years the rap on Amazon was they're not a profitable business?

[665] Yeah.

[666] Nobody could understand because it was this new model.

[667] well now you understand that that business model is about growing the brand value yeah you know in essence if you grow the brand value your your net worth as a as a brand it far outpaces whether or not you're profitable does it make sense yes it does so that's part of my argument now with music is the brand and i use my brand the smashing pumpkins or the n w a is far more valuable than my sort of profit law on paper in the world of the open market and so as long as you appreciate that you won't let people come along and gut out your brand value that's a fascinating way of looking at it I don't think very many musicians probably no because they're surrounded by people who are telling them it's a profit -loss business full well -knowing I would argue that they they kind of know deep down it really isn't like let's use a good positive example right now G &R you know reformed you know, Duff and Axel and Slash.

[668] They're out there.

[669] I just saw them at Madison Square Garden.

[670] I mean, that's proving to be a very durable brand.

[671] Mm -hmm.

[672] Right?

[673] Now, you could argue how many record, nobody cares anymore.

[674] That's a durable brand.

[675] Right.

[676] The G &R brand or the Harley Davidson brand or the Joe Rogan brand.

[677] Those are durable brands that are worth far more than you could sort of prove on paper.

[678] The G &R ones is a fascinating one to me because Axel just went off the rails and into the woods for so long.

[679] shooting his face up with a bunch of shit and it looks like he was just gone looks like we lost him I mean to me as a kid Guns and Roses like I mean they were like welcome to the jungles like one of my all time favorite songs when I was like 18 or whatever old I was when it came out I mean it was amazing and then to see them just have this incredible success and then Axel goes crazy but I would argue and I don't mean this in a disparaging way I would argue that the freedom in Axel and the path that they took is added to the brand.

[680] I think so, too, because people are so thankful they're back.

[681] I would argue it differently.

[682] I think that when you look, and I'm speaking as a fan now, when I look at Axel Rose, I see a free person.

[683] That means more to me than whether he did the right thing in 2000X.

[684] I'm more interested in that.

[685] That's a unique perspective.

[686] So you like the fact that he didn't give a fuck and he just went crazy.

[687] I love that about Axel Rose.

[688] I love that about Axel Rose.

[689] I love that he doesn't give two fucks about anything.

[690] I think that's so fascinating because there are only a few American iconic artists that are truly free.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And the fact that, so it's like was Hunter Thompson S. Thompson free?

[693] You know, it's like we only have a few of those people.

[694] Yeah.

[695] Johnny Cash, right?

[696] Johnny Cash had some weird bad years and, you know, was every year of Johnny Cash perfect?

[697] Was every year of Neil Young perfect?

[698] It's the sum total of what that person represents that I think is the durability.

[699] So as a fans, we get into like, well, I don't like the new song or I think that misses the mark.

[700] There's only one Guns and Roses in the whole world.

[701] And I have fought, like, mightily internally to protect what the smashing pumpkins means.

[702] I know it's not for everybody, but there's only one smashing pumpkins.

[703] I know that.

[704] I knew that as a kid, and then I got a little lost in it, and I've come out the other side, and I realized that protecting what that brand is worth is so much more valuable than whether somebody liked one song or one album or something I said in 1992.

[705] It's so inconsequential.

[706] That's such a unique perspective when you look at Axel Rose from the point of view of being a fellow performer, too.

[707] One of the things I really enjoy about Axel Rose is I love comebacks.

[708] I love when someone fucking.

[709] their life up and then just brings it right back around i mean it's like a good fight right well it's like it's ever success stories are awesome love them but they're fairly commonplace but success complete fuck up success again those are the stories those are the ones i enjoy that's it's very it's very american you know we we love the comeback and there was some performances of axles when they were attempting to come back or maybe he was touring on his own i forget which one it was where he was like off and he wasn't quite there yet and now you see him now live and he's fucking killing it it's like he turned it around yeah that's what I'm saying is you could sit there and talk about what somebody did in some year past but if they put it back together they put it back together not because they're trying to satisfy something they're putting it together because the forces within them are not easily controlled but when they're it's like a good fighter right when they put it all together You know, I've heard you talk on commentary.

[710] It's like a good fighter, like, manages their adrenaline, manages their focus.

[711] You know what I mean?

[712] You can't go completely hog wild and you can't be too conservative.

[713] You're right on that line.

[714] Yeah.

[715] And that's what performance really is like.

[716] It's like a lot of people outside the bubble have a hard time understanding.

[717] It's like, you know, every night I step on stage, I want to do a good show.

[718] Sometimes it's just not there to be had.

[719] It could be the moon or it could be what I eat for breakfast.

[720] I don't know.

[721] If I could be consistent about it, I don't think that makes me as fascinating as somebody is like, rolling the dice every time I'm up there.

[722] I think that's much more interesting.

[723] Well, that's one of the things that makes live shows so unique, right?

[724] Is that you know that this guy's doing it right now.

[725] It's all happening.

[726] The words are coming out of his mouth.

[727] He's managing this moment.

[728] Apparently, yeah.

[729] I mean, when you're a successful performer like yourself and you see one -hit wonders, one -hit wonders have always freaked me to fuck out.

[730] And I don't know why, because I'm not even a musician, but just the horror of being successful and hitting and then it all going away and then you're fucked yeah i was terrified of that god it's got to be so scary yeah that's to me one of the more one of the weirder opportunities or moments in in pop culture is when that kind of stuff happens because with one song you know she's my cherry pie you can just shoot to the top of the charts didn't they have two hits though i think they had a couple right so they're two two hit wonders, yeah.

[731] But you know, there's a gang of bands that had.

[732] Yeah, I don't want to see the band, but like somebody I know went to see one of those one hit wonder type bands.

[733] And they did their big famous song and the crowd went crazy.

[734] And then, you know, they did the show and then came back on for the encore and they did the song again.

[735] The same song.

[736] Yeah.

[737] And that's like, for me, it's a performance.

[738] It's just heartbreaking.

[739] It's like, it'd be like me playing today twice or something.

[740] And here it is again.

[741] Yeah, that's.

[742] Yeah, that's.

[743] Oh, two versions of stairway ahead.

[744] Or it'd be like the dice man coming out and doing the...

[745] Oh, the rhymes again.

[746] Yeah.

[747] Yeah.

[748] The thing about becoming a character, what you were talking about, that is a fascinating trap that I could imagine would be difficult.

[749] The expectations of your fans.

[750] You know, I just love the fact that you've managed that so comfortably.

[751] Well, not according to a lot of people, not haven't, but I'm comfortable with it.

[752] That's all that matters.

[753] I would argue that.

[754] That's true.

[755] like, you know, I play into these acoustic shows and, you know, at some point, people start shouting out songs.

[756] And I just say to the audience, look, the great thing about turning 50 is I don't give a fuck what you want.

[757] I was going to do what I want to do.

[758] And at the end of the day, right, that sells better to most of the audience.

[759] Because most of the audience, I would argue, appreciates me being independent even if they don't always get what they want, than being a shill.

[760] Yes.

[761] I don't think people get behind rebels because they want them to sell out.

[762] They get behind rebels because they want them to stay rebel.

[763] Yes.

[764] Well, yeah, for every person who yells out, I want you to do your old stuff, there's many more people that just want you to be you.

[765] Yeah, I would hope, yeah.

[766] Yeah, I would think so.

[767] Yeah.

[768] You're doing really intimate places.

[769] Like, you're doing that Hollywood cemetery.

[770] Yeah, it's pretty wild playing the cemetery.

[771] Yeah, my friend Duncan used to do comedy shows out of there.

[772] Oh, really?

[773] Yeah.

[774] They do comedy there?

[775] They used to.

[776] Duncan's crazy, though.

[777] He's just, I don't think anybody else did it before him.

[778] He just decided.

[779] It's a bit strange, you know.

[780] Yeah.

[781] It's just weird that they have a concert.

[782] Like we couldn't sound check until a certain time because there were people, you know, bereaved people coming in to make their funeral arrangements.

[783] Yeah.

[784] So it's like a weird thing like, yeah, we can't sound check until 530 because there's somebody in the ante room making burial arrangements for their family.

[785] Yeah, legitimately.

[786] Yeah.

[787] Yeah, like it's a real cemetery that also has concerts.

[788] Yeah.

[789] How many is his seat?

[790] 250.

[791] Oh, wow.

[792] Yeah, it's really small.

[793] It's a cool vibe.

[794] It's beautiful.

[795] I mean, it's really cool.

[796] I love the old Hollywood stuff, so, you know, it works for.

[797] me, but it is a bit weird.

[798] I literally texted, you know, like an ex -girlfriend, like, I'm literally playing a cemetery.

[799] You know what I mean?

[800] It's like, it just sounds so like, what?

[801] Yeah.

[802] Well, what, what chose you or what made you choose that venue?

[803] That's, you know, you got your, your agent sort of, you know, when you're playing, I'm playing acoustic, I play over two hours literally by myself, no help.

[804] So environment helps a lot with kind of creating the atmosphere to do that in.

[805] the more sterile the environment, the less it feels kind of special.

[806] Right, right.

[807] And so I do find the environment certainly helps.

[808] Yeah, that's a small group of people to see you.

[809] Like, what is that like to go from these big venues to doing these intimate settings?

[810] I used to really find that I could play a different show small versus big, and I found over the last 10 years, I blame the Internet that almost every audience is now the same.

[811] Wow.

[812] That the expectations of the audience from 250 to 5 ,000 or up is almost identical.

[813] That may also have something to do, which is having a long career, and then people kind of say, I want to see these songs or something.

[814] Yeah.

[815] But I don't find as much willingness to take the journey that used to be.

[816] Because in the 90s, we would do shows in a club, and we would play no hits and just play weird B -sides, and people loved it because it was like, I'm seeing the band I wouldn't get to see at the Enormaldome.

[817] Right, right.

[818] And then at some point that stopped, and we would play a small club, and play a bunch of weird stuff, and people would be furious.

[819] Really?

[820] Yeah, you would look at Twitter after.

[821] It was like, fuck you, you ruin my night.

[822] You know.

[823] Oh, really?

[824] Furious.

[825] Wow.

[826] But how many of those people were, I mean, like, if you're in front of 400 people, how many of those people were furious?

[827] Is it three?

[828] It would be a lot.

[829] No, it would be a lot.

[830] No, it was a lot.

[831] Strange, weird, yeah.

[832] I just, I don't know.

[833] I think it's a cultural thing maybe, you know.

[834] A generational thing, perhaps?

[835] Don't know.

[836] I don't know.

[837] It surprised me. Because I grew up in this kind of anarchy time, you know, Mosh pits and, you know, we used to play a 45 -minute song.

[838] Really?

[839] Can you imagine playing a 45 -minute song today?

[840] Yeah.

[841] I mean, a 45 -minute song.

[842] That's crazy.

[843] You know, so.

[844] Do you enjoy being on top of people like that, like a 250 seat?

[845] It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me at all.

[846] Does it feel different?

[847] What do you just get into your music?

[848] In order to play acoustic, I go super within.

[849] I found that even because I originally I was going to stand, this I know seems kind of minor detail, but I decided to sit.

[850] And I actually found by sitting and being very still and just performing and doing my best job of performing the songs, the audience enjoyed the show better.

[851] Like I took out all the show biz.

[852] You know, when you're standing, you're doing the, you know, whatever, your moves.

[853] Right.

[854] I think creating a level of intimacy and drawing the audience forward is probably the only sort of difference maker that I found because there's literally no showbid.

[855] I mean, what can I do?

[856] You seem very concerned with, like, you want the audience to enjoy it.

[857] Yeah, I didn't used to care.

[858] I used to view performing as an art project thing, which is I want to sort of create a provocative situation, and then I want to ride the wave of the provocative situation.

[859] And, of course, I grew up in a generational thing that the audience was sort of interested in that, sort of the explosive nature of the mosh pit, and, you know, this kind of weird, sublimated violence that would kind of come out during the shows and we were part of the engine that would sort of bring out this emotional quality and then at some point you know things change again I don't know if it's a generational thing but I found that um the only way I could play older music with a good heart and an open mind was to get into the others appreciating it because if you ask me it's not for me anymore because in essence as an artist and I'm not trying to jump in your head but as an artist I want to be able to say how do I feel tonight and tonight I want to I've written like 400 songs so to me I would like to say okay of these 400 songs I just feel like playing these 15 songs tonight but I can't do that because I do have to go out and do the hickory dickery doc poem it's like it's sort of expected and if I don't I'm going to get lit up right so I had to kind of create this weird truce in my mind where it's like what way can I do this material in a way that feels heartfelt and genuine, and I found by letting myself appreciate the audience's appreciation of that created like a joy that I didn't have before.

[860] It didn't feel like a defeat and a tapping out to the moment.

[861] It felt like, oh, okay, we can create this exchange.

[862] Was this a gradual process?

[863] Yeah, it took me a while, because I came from such complete anarchy that to sort of put myself in the straitjacket of being a, you know, growing up in the era I grew up, And it felt like putting on the gold lemay jacket and going to Vegas.

[864] That's what it felt like to me. You know, it felt like I was really, you know, I'd become, you know, one of those guys.

[865] Yeah, yeah.

[866] You know, doing the musty old routine.

[867] It was like, this is so antithetical to why I even became an artist.

[868] But at some point, again, I had to appreciate that, and I talked about it once with Pete Townsend in private.

[869] It's like the idea that, you know, what is your responsibility to a generational memory?

[870] Like Pete was talking to me once about how people.

[871] People were getting mad at him for using, and I saw him quoted publicly, so I don't feel like I can't be giving anything away.

[872] People are getting mad at him for using, like, won't get fooled again in a car commercial.

[873] And Pete's quote was something along the lines of like, I don't care if you lost your virginity to Mary Lou in the backseat to my song.

[874] It's my song I can do with it what I want.

[875] So it takes time to sort of appreciate that at some point, if you've been lucky enough, and I am lucky enough to have created a few kind of cultural milestones for a generation or multiple generations.

[876] that they feel very possessive of those things.

[877] And so if you're not willing to possess them with them, it almost feels like to them you're rejecting their idea, not your own.

[878] Oh, wow.

[879] See, to my mind, I'm like, well, I'm the author.

[880] If I don't feel like playing that song, I mean, that's my decision.

[881] So you sold them on something, and then if you're not buying it anymore, then they're angry.

[882] It almost feels like you're rejecting their approval.

[883] Yes.

[884] Yeah.

[885] And when you're surrounded by a bunch of sycophantic artists who are literally tripping all over themselves to give the audience what they want to create this kind of idealized is in this amazing feeling and we've all been to those shows it's like it's the greatest concert ever and then you go to the next show and it's the exact same lines in between the songs and it's it's Vegas right yeah I'm incapable of that so my way of feeling it was but my appreciation of that was to try to get inside the head of why the audience needed that from me because it felt burdensome like why me like get it from the guy over there like there's plenty of people you can get this vibe from why me well that's the nickel back thing right like people demand sincerity and if they think that you're in like nickelback's not that bad but they're the fucking punchline of punchlines when it comes to bad bad music and I to me the guy's an incredible writer I mean Chad I mean he's an incredible songwriter I like the songs yeah i like some of their music i do i know it some of it is like cliche subject matter and i don't care there's a lot of great songs that have cliche subject matter yes yeah to me i don't i don't think there's anything i and i'm not trying to i don't know enough about their world but i don't think there's anything wrong if that's who you want to be yes pop to me is predicated on on satisfying pop i've said it many times pop is porn it's porn it want to get you off right right and it's how it's just you know how they're going to get you off that's a good way looking at it okay i'm not that concern with getting you off i'm just not i'm just not it's just not in my DNA i was never that guy i was never that guy so so at some point you know pick your age 41 you got some guy tapping their shoulder saying hey i need you to be that guy you're like me have you looked at me lately i mean i'm not that guy it's very strange so i had to get inside the head of why people needed that like what that did for them on sort of a very general level.

[886] It's sort of it's a community thing or something.

[887] Yes.

[888] And so there's a way to do it where it feels good, positive, loving, and proportional.

[889] Like it doesn't have to be slavish and it can be cool.

[890] Like this is the right moment for it or I can set this up and now I can do it.

[891] Like using the dice man as an example, I've seen him a couple times I laughed my ass off when I saw him.

[892] And when I He saw him.

[893] He did his whole routine.

[894] He showed up at the comedy store one night.

[895] I just happened when they'd be there with a friend and he did like an unannounced appearance.

[896] He was fantastic.

[897] And at the end, he kind of made the face and like, and then he went into it.

[898] But it felt like it was the only way he could top the moment.

[899] Right.

[900] So right in that moment, it felt like, okay, this is cool.

[901] Because it's like, it feels like, hey, you've been good.

[902] We ate the whole cake together.

[903] Here's the cherry.

[904] But when it feels like, I got to do this because that's the game.

[905] I don't know.

[906] He went through that whole process himself.

[907] Like, he abandoned the rhymes for a long time.

[908] Did he even kind of try to abandon the character a bit?

[909] I have a little bit of a memory of that.

[910] Yeah, he did a television show, like a regular sitcom, and he cried on some TV show, like Arsenio Hall or something like that, and, you know, about people angry at him for being controversial.

[911] Yeah, I don't remember that.

[912] The early days of political correctness when MTV first came around, you know?

[913] Yeah, I was, I think it was a little bit of a trap that he felt.

[914] felt like he was in and now I think in a similar fashion maybe similar and using him as a sort of as an example how many comedians have actually risen up to that zeitgeist level almost none I mean he's been like a handful he was as hot as you could be ever so paralleling my own self in that way it does create this weird because the 20 % who know every song and whatever and know every nuance the other 80 % they just know the the greatest hit thing it's not their fault right it feels weird like is that all i am right right i've done all this you know didn't you see me when i wave this flag and no they don't right all they know is you're the rat in the cage guy right and you can be hostile about it all you want it's not going to change yeah i mean the the amount of times i've been in a parking garage or a grocery store or whatever and somebody who's very nice, very respectful will walk up to be, and that's what they know.

[915] And if you can be humble about it, I think, it's pretty amazing that literally I can get off any exit in America and pretty much anywhere I go, somebody has some reference to what I've done.

[916] That's pretty remarkable.

[917] So if you can get behind that, you can think, oh, that's pretty cool.

[918] I'm cool with that.

[919] It's not this oppositional thing.

[920] Like, you should have paid more attention in 94.

[921] Right.

[922] You know, the revolution was happening.

[923] Where were you?

[924] You were listening to somebody else, you know?

[925] Like there's requirements.

[926] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[927] And it's also part and parcel to when you take a fringe movement, which, you know, alternative music, grunge, whatever was, and it's thrown in the mainstream, those social codes and mores don't translate very well to mainstream code.

[928] Yeah.

[929] If you look at what pop people have done in the last 10 years, they just steal that stuff.

[930] They take this coat and they take this walk and they take this dance and they take this production style and they say, I'll take that.

[931] Yeah, they just combine it all together.

[932] Yeah.

[933] Because that's their gig.

[934] I've always wondered what it's like when you are, when you're beginning as an artist, you know, you're idealistic.

[935] You have all these ideas about what the future could be.

[936] Who knows?

[937] It's all wide open.

[938] And then all of a sudden, many years later, you are a fucking massive superstar selling out arenas.

[939] How difficult is it to find people who understand where your head is at?

[940] Impossible.

[941] Do you, like, seek out other superstar musicians and talk to each other?

[942] I did, and I got nowhere there either.

[943] Really?

[944] Yeah.

[945] I've had a hard time ever getting, like, good data.

[946] Let's put it that way.

[947] Hmm.

[948] The freakiest thing was I saw how it changed my inner world, meaning friends and family.

[949] How so?

[950] My step -grandfather, who was a World War II vet, very closed down, classic Eisenhower, Republican, type of guy, smart, you know what I mean, had literally zero interest in me as a kid.

[951] I mean, negative zero interest.

[952] And one day I'm sitting there at Christmas and now Grandpa wants to talk to me about the economics of my success.

[953] Whoa.

[954] And it's like, that got through to him because some guy at work or somebody at the church brought me up.

[955] And it was like, oh, that's my grandson, you know.

[956] nothing about childhood you know childhood tears did anything but that you know I saw where it warped the gravity in my family and then you get the friend like you know you're different it's like yeah I'm different of course I'm different you know what I mean you know what I mean it's like I've got a million dollars in my pocket you know what I could buy you know I mean you know I one day walked into Beverly Hills and paid cash for Ferrari and it's just dumb stuff like that's kind of awesome though yeah yeah I remember People don't like the idea of that.

[957] No, I think it's funny, right?

[958] It's amazing.

[959] You bought a Ferrari with money that you had on you.

[960] That's fucking crazy.

[961] And it was the classic story I walk in.

[962] You know, the guy didn't know who I was.

[963] It's like, so how are you going to pay for this?

[964] And I was like, cash.

[965] You have a brick with you.

[966] It's like, wow.

[967] That's just an awesome thing to be able to do if you can do it.

[968] So stupid, right?

[969] So I'm saying you go from like literally complete, not abject power.

[970] I have poor.

[971] I had no money.

[972] right you know and then one day i'm like throwing you know gs around for yeah dumb cars and well it's also you you've reached such a high level that there's nothing above that like i have the i have the antidote my manager uh who uh was you know we were with the metallic guys at the time he called me on like a wednesday or something and he said i can't say for sure but more than likely based on calls are getting, you're going to be number one this week, meaning melancholy.

[973] And I literally said, is there a position higher?

[974] Like I couldn't process that there wasn't like another step.

[975] You couldn't keep going.

[976] Yeah, yeah.

[977] Well, that's what I always wondered.

[978] Like when you reach a certain level and you're selling out these giant arenas and you're one of the biggest bands literally ever, you look at one of the top 100 biggest bands of all time, right?

[979] Arguably.

[980] Yeah, we're in there, yeah It's in there Yeah Where the fuck do you go?

[981] Like, it had to be this weird Yeah, I would imagine That madness is the only option Yeah, madness Sort of becomes attractive at that point God, that's got to be so strange To be just crushing it Selling out these giant arenas Number one songs going, now what?

[982] What the fuck do we do?

[983] Do we fade away?

[984] No, we went crazy, yeah, we just lost our minds Like what happened?

[985] What was the process?

[986] Did you see it slipping away?

[987] Oh, yeah.

[988] Did you see the madness?

[989] Yeah, yeah.

[990] and it became you know it's like it's like a bad relationship or bad relationships you it becomes a lot clear when you're out you know at the time you sort of do your own rationalization like oh he or she's going crazy not me we all went crazy in four different directions wow and this and the and the great shame of my band was musically we were super tight and we never disagreed on music it was like this weird phenomenon where musically we were like like totally in sync.

[991] We could produce and write music very, very quickly, and it was always the other stuff around us.

[992] So that sort of ate at the core, and then when we lost our personal relationship, that's what diminished the musical relationship.

[993] But you don't know it at the time, because you're sort of, I don't want to say, arrogance, not the right word, but it's like you have a sort of a, you know, you got a little bit of a thing in your walk and you think, you know, you got the world by the, you know what, and all good.

[994] You think you can power your way through anything because you have.

[995] Right.

[996] You don't understand that you do actually need the people standing next to you.

[997] I have such a greater appreciation for my manmates.

[998] Now that I've seen what we actually did accomplish in, you know, is surrounded by chaos, but then we created our own chaos, and then at some point it all blurs.

[999] What were the things that fucked it up?

[1000] Was it the money and the fame and was it the tension?

[1001] Was it the ego?

[1002] I think we were like one of those bad behind the musics.

[1003] The very early conversation, I remember we had these managers very early on, and they were coming to town sort of courting us before we had a record deal.

[1004] And one day they came to town and they said, can we just go out to breakfast with you, which was weird, because it was always the whole band, like, you know, democracy.

[1005] And they said, now, who writes the songs?

[1006] And I said, well, I do.

[1007] And they said, well, that's going to be a problem.

[1008] Like, what do you mean?

[1009] That's going to be a problem.

[1010] They said, well, songwriters and bands make a lot more money.

[1011] So our suggestion is you should share your songs with your bandmates to keep sort of a kind of a democratic stasis.

[1012] And they used some examples of bands who did it.

[1013] And I thought, hell now, I'm not giving them my work.

[1014] I mean, it's my songs.

[1015] And they were like, you don't understand.

[1016] You're going to make a lot more money.

[1017] And I was like, tough shit.

[1018] You know what I mean?

[1019] It's like live and learn kind of thing.

[1020] Why do I think you were going to make more money?

[1021] Because it would be more successful?

[1022] writers get if you uh quick uh lesson uh the songwriter gets paid separate statutorily by the government than the than the actual copyright of the recording so if i'm on jo rogan's label you pay the band for the recording which of course in that case would be split four ways but you owe me a statutory rate as a songwriter for the sale which i think these days is about 10 cents so every record we sold where I was the sole songwriter, I was getting 10 cents that they weren't getting or 8 cents or whatever it was at the time.

[1023] So you can imagine over a gazillion records sold, it added up.

[1024] Yeah.

[1025] So I start pulling away financially.

[1026] You know what mean?

[1027] But when you're a kid and you're 23 and somebody's having this conversation with you and you literally don't even have an apartment.

[1028] Right.

[1029] And somebody's trying to tell you how you're going to make a lot more money.

[1030] It's like, what does that mean?

[1031] Fast forward four years later and it's like, I'm making a lot more money.

[1032] So that sort of so is it, it organically so is discontent.

[1033] Yes.

[1034] You know, it's a, whether you call it, jealousy or not.

[1035] And then as I emerged as sort of the autour and the big mouth in the band, and maybe the person who was most willing to be controversy or whatever, we'd get in a room with journalists and they would just talk to me. And then we get out of the interviews, and the band members would yell at me for them not being asked questions.

[1036] So it's like this weird thing like, Like, it was my responsibility to push them more as stars or...

[1037] Yeah, so it's not just about the music.

[1038] It's about being appreciated and successful and famous.

[1039] Now, in hindsight, and in fairness to them, I didn't appreciate why it was important to them.

[1040] Because in their minds, we're all equal, we're in the room together.

[1041] Yeah, you write the songs, that's cool.

[1042] But at least give me the social currency of being recognized or, you know, or somebody would offer me alone a magazine cover.

[1043] And if I was smart, which I wasn't, I should have said, no, only the band or nothing.

[1044] But I was like, sure, put me on the cover.

[1045] I'll take it.

[1046] You know what I mean?

[1047] Right.

[1048] You probably would have thought they would do the same thing if someone came to that.

[1049] Absolutely.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] And then, of course, it becomes tit for tat.

[1052] Then, like, two of the band members went on their own and made a record deal without me. They got somebody to give them a bunch of money to start a label, which they had every right to do.

[1053] You know what I mean?

[1054] So suddenly they're, like, making side deals.

[1055] and it starts getting all that weird business.

[1056] Right.

[1057] Now, again, it's like an erosion factor.

[1058] You don't appreciate it from within.

[1059] There's a lot of compression.

[1060] There's a lot of money.

[1061] There's a lot of stuff going on.

[1062] And then one day it sort of hollows out.

[1063] And then it's too late.

[1064] You know, you can't just sort of sit down and have a meeting and make it all okay.

[1065] Because the wounds are deep.

[1066] And in our case, I mean, the wounds lasted for, I didn't talk to Darcy for 17 years.

[1067] Whoa.

[1068] And I didn't talk to James for, I think, 16.

[1069] Wow.

[1070] So, I mean, the heat was real.

[1071] I mean, we didn't, there were lawsuits and all sorts of stuff.

[1072] It's such a common story that I hope someone listens to this part of your conversation as well.

[1073] They won't.

[1074] It's just human nature, right?

[1075] Is that what it is?

[1076] Power corrupts, man. Yeah.

[1077] And again, you know, no sympathy asking here.

[1078] But wouldn't today, though.

[1079] I mean, it wouldn't today.

[1080] Like, I feel like if you were in a similar position today, you'd have hindsight in your favor.

[1081] Oh, yeah, no, no, I would, right?

[1082] Yeah, I mean, and even talking about the band going back, on a tour and the possibility of that it's like I approach it completely different yeah so that's what I'm saying like power doesn't necessarily corrupt it corrupts if you don't know what the fuck it's going to do to you sure yeah but again and I'm not and not preaching for sympathy but the and I can't speak for the modern music business but the business we were in in the 90s we were surrounded by people who are giving us wrong information now were they giving us wrong information on purpose or because they weren't bright enough I don't know but we weren't getting the right information.

[1083] Very few people actually try to sit us down and say, look, this is going to be a problem.

[1084] Trust me. You know, it's like you're in there with the hounds and there's just...

[1085] Right.

[1086] And they probably don't have the time for psychological management anyway.

[1087] They're probably in the middle of just trying to figure out how to make money off you and how to optimize.

[1088] My understanding is they, and again, going back to the conversation I have with the executive, they just basically look and they say, you've got four years if you're lucky.

[1089] If you're lucky.

[1090] So why are they going to spend a bunch of time trying to, trying to hold your hand knowing you're gonna lose anyway what a crazy relationship between the record labels and the artists it's it's similar I guess probably like the pit boss if you're if you're having a hot run at like roulette and the pit boss is just like enjoy it now yeah because we're gonna get it back that's what it feels like what percentage of musicians or musical artists that get signed by a label and put something out ever wind up having an actually successful career probably less than 10 % Jesus Christ I would say it's probably even smaller what a meat grinder of a business you would think like hey man we're on fucking Warner brothers dude we made it it's happening they're going to promote us they're going to push us they signed us and sorry to interrupt again but the other weird thing is the again the system I was in was even if you were successful it was set up to make you feel like you weren't successful right because that was the work that was the manipulation yeah i once said to somebody who is a very famous name in the business um it's like you guys find a needle in the haystack and then you spend the next 20 years telling them they're not a needle in the haystack right it's it's what i'm trying to say and i'm not saying it well is you would think you would be surrounded by people are telling you you're talented you're special we want to help you because the more you succeed will succeed and we'll all succeed together, it was the exact opposite.

[1091] It was like, no, you're dumb, you're wrong, no, you're crazy, don't do that, you're going to ruin it.

[1092] And then, and even if you'd say, I want to wear this hat, okay, I'm going to wear this hat.

[1093] And when it wouldn't work, it'd say, see, you should listen to us.

[1094] Is that universal?

[1095] Have you heard other, other musicians say the same thing?

[1096] I would guess it was universal, because looking back, it doesn't feel personal to me. It felt like I, you know, use your bad analogy, pimp -ho, I don't know.

[1097] It's a weird con job thing.

[1098] That was my experience.

[1099] It was a lot of con jobs.

[1100] That Courtney Love piece that she wrote about the music business, I'm sure you're aware of that.

[1101] Was it recent?

[1102] No, a bunch of years ago where she, it was, I think it was actually probably before digital got really huge.

[1103] And it was a lot of people thought she had a ghost writer.

[1104] But it was really eye -opening to a lot of people that didn't know anything about the music business.

[1105] like where the money actually goes and how how much money has to be spent and how little you actually make even though if you sell a shit ton of records you've never seen this it's pretty famous from 2000 actually is on salon dot com yeah it might have been one of the years we weren't talking oh there you go yeah well it's for people who haven't read it it's pretty eye open i've i've nothing to do with the music business i've always been absolutely fascinated as a completely objective observer just looking at it this whole thing seems so crazy because it's if you do not get signed and if you do not get at least until recently you had no chance they they literally controlled the reins in the direction of your career almost like an actor like you can't make it as an actor unless you get an audition and someone chooses to put you in a film but like a great Greek mythology type myth thing the the music businesses made two critical mistakes over the last 30 or so years that led to its current sort of reduced status.

[1106] One was they let MTV run amok on free content.

[1107] And when they tried to rein MTV and MTV basically told them to take a hike and the music business back down.

[1108] So when MTV stopped playing music content, there was nothing the music business could do because they'd given away all their leverage to MTV.

[1109] And then the second was when Napster showed up and they acted like Napster was a virus that they just needed to stamp out.

[1110] Not really realizing that Napster was just the beginning of a whole wave of news.

[1111] technologies and new sort of social interactions or something.

[1112] Those two critical errors led to the music business reduced position.

[1113] And it's this music, I mean, music has been around forever, but the music business has been around, what, 100 or so years?

[1114] Yeah, I think we're into 120 plus years of recordings.

[1115] Yeah, it's just amazing how, what an iron fist they've managed to control the business with and to sort of wrangle all the, the artist for the most part well it's a wizard of oz you know you know don't don't you know don't you know don't look behind the curtain have you ever thought about being on the other side yeah i have but i just don't have that much i'm actually that's why i'm more interested in wrestling i think i like that i like the even though it's a sort of weird business i sort of like that because it doesn't have anything to do with music i have too much damage and too many i don't think i could see clearly doesn't make sense it's like it's still too weird for me yeah no it does it does make sense Like, when you first, when I first came to L .A. in, whatever, 90, and had the meetings, and you'd be in that, you know, the office and the people with the beards and everything.

[1116] And they'd be like, so when we put the product out, and every time they would say product, I would sort of wince, product, like, how can you call my art product?

[1117] You know what I mean?

[1118] And that's, to them, it's just, it's cookies and toilet paper.

[1119] It's just, it's whatever.

[1120] And, and it's not to say they're not fans and they don't appreciate, you know, or they don't care.

[1121] but at the end of the day, it's just some sort of weird business, you know.

[1122] And like all institutional cultures that are sort of kind of corrupt at their core, it just sort of runs on its own inertia.

[1123] It just does.

[1124] When you see someone like Chance the Rapper break out of that system, do you think that that's a model that can be followed, or is he just like an outlier?

[1125] No, it's certainly a model that can be followed, but, you know, it probably works because he's so talented.

[1126] It's like a weird combination.

[1127] Right.

[1128] I mean, use the McGregor example.

[1129] It's like how many McGregors are there in the world.

[1130] And beyond being a skilled fighter, I mean, the guy's an A -level talker.

[1131] Speaking from a professional wrestling standpoint, the guy's probably the best promo in the world.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] No, he's the best.

[1134] Right.

[1135] As far as MMA guys.

[1136] And it's also, he is in this very unique position where he has insane support from Ireland.

[1137] I mean, insane.

[1138] You've never seen anything like it.

[1139] I've been calling fights for a long time.

[1140] I've been working for the UFC since 97.

[1141] I've never seen anybody like him.

[1142] I've never seen any support, like the support the Irish people have for him.

[1143] It's fucking crazy.

[1144] Did you see the videos of when he fought Mayweather?

[1145] Not even where they fought.

[1146] They were in Mandalay Bay.

[1147] Irish had flooded Mandalay Bay.

[1148] You know that walkway for Mandalay Bay as you walk towards the arena and towards where the shark exhibit is and shit?

[1149] There was nothing but Irish people singing.

[1150] And it's fucking crazy, man. It's like, who organized this?

[1151] no one.

[1152] Who told them to start singing?

[1153] They did it organically.

[1154] As an Irish descendant, we've been waiting for a long time for Connor McGregor.

[1155] Yeah, man, I guess.

[1156] I mean, poets and Bono.

[1157] You know what mean?

[1158] We needed a fighter in there too.

[1159] Yeah, someone who's fun.

[1160] Yeah, but to see all those people cheer and scream and, you know, I was talking to Daniel Cormier about it this past weekend.

[1161] He's like, there's no one like him.

[1162] He goes, because he loses, he doesn't lose any support.

[1163] It doesn't change anything and people respect the fact that he took a chance and fought mayweather like can can i ask you a fanboy uh ufc question so tell me sorry like cormey lost to john jones right is that okay and he lost because jones was on whatever right yes i mean how does a guy like that i'm asking more of a psychological question because he's obvious cormey's a great fighter how do you sort of process that well i mean you have to really wonder it hasn't been established what happened right so there's a lot of speculation i don't know if you know the recent most recent speculation that i talked about the other day but the most recent speculation is that john might have snorted cocaine that was cut with creatine that was contaminated with steroids because if you look at the timeline i know if you look at the time and john loves some cocaine but if you look at the timeline of when john tested negative and when john tested positive it is prepondering to think that he thought that he could take it and not pass.

[1164] But the fight coincides with 10 days out from his birthday party where he apparently got blitzkrieged.

[1165] So it is entirely possible that, and this is just massive speculation, but we have done some research online and found that there have been cases of creatine that was contaminated by cheap creatine from China contaminated with steroids.

[1166] specifically the type of steroid that he tested positive for and creatine is often used to cut cocaine apparently so it is entirely possible that he did blow and that blow had steroids in it through the contaminated creatine okay but back to Cormier so Cormier lost the question is did he lose because John Jones is a cheater or did he lose because John Jones is an amazing fighter so the second one would be harder to deal with because if you lost because John Jones is an amazing fighter who did Coke 10 days out before their title fight and kicked his ass and now they give Daniel the title back it's very weird yeah that's why I was asking more as a fan like the psychological perspective we need a real fucking lie detector test that's what we need we do not we value honesty so much and there's very little other than some rudimentary observations they can make with fMRI functional magnetic imaging, resonance imaging would you want to be lie detect yes strap me up man that would be a good podcast I try to tell the truth have you done that podcast as much as humanly possible that'd be funny right have you ever like have you ever thought about so and so in a particular way I jump at the opportunity to expose things that I think are fucked up about me but that one um i mean when it comes to like cheating in combat sports it has such an intense significance to it that's not it's not an option or it's not a it's not a factor in other sports is that you can cause damage to your opponent like physical damage that could affect them for the rest of their life right right like that was the case with vitor belfort when he fought michael bisping he head kicked bisping and knocked him out and bisping suffered a really badly detached retina in his eye and went on to have I think several surgeries and now has oil in his eye like if you look at his eye there's there's like permanent oil to protect his retina that he has to leave in there until he decides to quit fighting and then he'll have another surgery on it and the question is like did vitar land that because he's highly skilled or did he land it because he's highly skilled and taking testosterone it's you're you're you You increase your ability to cause damage, and that changes the game.

[1167] It's not like hitting a baseball.

[1168] If a guy's on steroids and he hits a baseball and his team won and your team lost, I get how the team would be upset that he's a cheater.

[1169] But it's just not the same impact.

[1170] It doesn't have the same ramifications.

[1171] Yeah, well, especially when you're talking about, like, the angle of a punch and tenth of a second being the difference between a glancing blow and a knockout.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] That's what's so crazy is, like, you get into this fractional.

[1174] idea of what is just.

[1175] Mm -hmm.

[1176] There's so many factors.

[1177] There's speed.

[1178] There's the amount of energy that you have.

[1179] And then there's psychological factors, like confidence.

[1180] Mm -hmm.

[1181] There's no metric to figure out what kind of an effect being a juiced -up psychopath has.

[1182] Like, if you're someone who, like, Vitor Belfort, who's already highly skilled, and then you pump him full of steroids and he comes out to, like, motherfucker.

[1183] Like, he just, like, feels like he can't lose.

[1184] And then he has so much confidence.

[1185] and then all the skill on top of that.

[1186] I hate to pick on him, but he's my favorite example because the difference between him on testosterone and him off testosterone is so radical.

[1187] Like there's been these photos side to side of the two of them together and you're just like, wow.

[1188] Like it's like one of them's a destroyer.

[1189] The other one is a dad.

[1190] Like he's a dad bod.

[1191] It's weird.

[1192] So if that's the case with John Jones, what you want to pull it up?

[1193] This related breaking story right now.

[1194] Uh -oh.

[1195] Yeah, there's two breaking stories in the MMA world right now.

[1196] Uh -oh.

[1197] This one, since you're talking about it.

[1198] Anderson Silva fails out of UFC Shanghai main event.

[1199] Makes sense.

[1200] He's 40.

[1201] What did he fail for?

[1202] Did it say?

[1203] It doesn't say a sample B test that failed from an October 26th collection.

[1204] Huh.

[1205] So it was a couple weeks ago.

[1206] That's interesting.

[1207] From a sample B test.

[1208] Sorry, I didn't say sample.

[1209] It just said sample collected.

[1210] Oh.

[1211] Oh, okay.

[1212] Didn't say the actual drug.

[1213] Because they don't test sample B unless sample A is, well, I'm not surprised.

[1214] This is the other thing going right now.

[1215] Connor McGregor jumps the cage at Bellator 187 conference referee Mark Goddard.

[1216] Yeah, I heard about that.

[1217] Definitely don't do that.

[1218] Yeah, I don't know what that was about.

[1219] I don't know why he did that.

[1220] Yeah, you like that though.

[1221] I'm already booking the main event.

[1222] How do you have time for that wrestling stuff?

[1223] Just, I just make time.

[1224] You just make time because you enjoy it.

[1225] Yeah, I love it, yeah.

[1226] For all this fucking crazy emo kids that are just massive smashing pumpkins fans, there's so many of them that must drive them nuts.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] But that's part of it.

[1229] That's wrestling.

[1230] Tough shit, right?

[1231] It is what it is.

[1232] Yeah, yeah.

[1233] Yeah.

[1234] So to answer your question, Daniel Carmier is an awesome guy.

[1235] I mean, it really breaks my heart when I see people get upset and boo him, the people that don't like him.

[1236] I just don't think they know.

[1237] him and for whatever reason he is I mean to be completely honest he's always going to be in the shadow of the greatest light heavyweight champion of all time and that's John John's the greatest I mean he's he's so uniquely talented and special and just there's something about him all across the board and part of his parting and all that shit is kind of connected to that because he's fucking wild and it's one of the reasons why look when he fought Shogun for the title he was 23 years years old, he opens the fight with a flying knee.

[1238] Who fights a legend, like Mauricio Shogun, who was like one of the greatest ever in pride, former, you know, he was a light heavyweight champion at the time.

[1239] John Jones fights him.

[1240] He's 23 years old, and his opening move is a flying knee that lands.

[1241] I mean, he's just, he's uniquely improvisational, creative, wild, talented, physically, incredibly dominant, very strong.

[1242] Got a crazy body for the game, like really long limbs.

[1243] Yeah, the long thing, yeah.

[1244] And strong, though.

[1245] He's not frail.

[1246] Like, the difference between John is he's got long limbs, but he has that strong wrestling base.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] So even though he's like a thin guy, he's very physically strong.

[1249] It's a strange comparison to make, but back in the day, he used to hang up a lot with Dennis Rodman when he was playing for the bowls.

[1250] And he had freakish strength, kind of similar body, like very long.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] Like, you wouldn't look at him and think muscles.

[1253] And Rodman could pick a 250 -pound man up with one hand and lift him over a rope.

[1254] I saw him do it at a club.

[1255] So the guy was acting up, and Dennis just reached over the guy, picked him up like this.

[1256] And then even people would remember NBA fans, Dennis used to guard.

[1257] Dennis used to guard Shaq one -on -one.

[1258] Yeah.

[1259] And that was when Shaq was, what, you know, 3 -40 or something?

[1260] Dennis would just, and that was when they had the whole thing, you couldn't use your hand, you had the elbow and all that stuff.

[1261] He guard him one -on -one.

[1262] Freakish strength.

[1263] And you're like, you look at him, you think, how is that possible?

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] Some guys just have that weird, whatever that is.

[1266] It's a lot of times it's those long guys, too.

[1267] Something is about long limbs and leverage.

[1268] And it's like they have this, if they have, long as they have a certain amount of muscle with that long, those long limbs and long leverage.

[1269] I mean, look at the side.

[1270] Look, okay.

[1271] Freakish.

[1272] And this, you know, this is like the era I'm hanging out with Dennis.

[1273] I mean, look at Dennis's size compared to Shaq.

[1274] If you didn't know it was Dennis Rodman, it was just some NBA scrub, right?

[1275] You would think there's no way that guy's going to guard him one -on -one, especially Shaq in his prime there.

[1276] There's no way.

[1277] Yeah.

[1278] Rodman is a crazy guy.

[1279] Speaking crazy.

[1280] Can I tell you a funny story?

[1281] I got a good story.

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] So, used to hang out a lot with Dennis and, you know, hadn't seen him for years, was at a restaurant in Chicago, not too long ago.

[1284] and somebody said oh you guys are friends with Dennis right yeah yeah oh he's upstairs oh really we go upstairs Dennis is crying oh my god I miss you guys me and my buddy we're hanging out with them telling old stories you know seven or eight years haven't seen him this is great like when you see a buddy you really love and it's really affectionate and Dennis is one of those people at some point he just gets up and he wanders away I think he's going to take a piss okay about 10 minutes goes by.

[1285] I say to the waitress, did Dennis leave?

[1286] Yeah, he left.

[1287] Okay.

[1288] I just figure he's gone.

[1289] It's just the way he is.

[1290] Right.

[1291] He wouldn't even say goodbye.

[1292] Just gone.

[1293] I get up the next morning, I turn the television.

[1294] Dennis Rodman's in North Korea.

[1295] Okay.

[1296] By the way, I spent an hour and a half with him.

[1297] He didn't say anything about going to North Korea, right?

[1298] So I turn on the television and it's like very controversial.

[1299] Dennis Rodman's in North Korea.

[1300] So I text my buddy and I say, have you seen the news?

[1301] No, what?

[1302] I say, turn on the television and he said, what channel?

[1303] And I said, it doesn't matter.

[1304] And two minutes goes by, holy fuck.

[1305] Because he went through the same thing, you know?

[1306] Wow.

[1307] Yeah, what is his deal with that North Korean dude?

[1308] He just goes over there and hangs out with him and plays basketball.

[1309] Dennis is really a genuine, you know, a naive -hearted person.

[1310] So in my best understanding is he truly believes he can affect the world in a positive way.

[1311] So he really feels like...

[1312] Dennis, there's not a bad bone in Dennis' body.

[1313] Wow.

[1314] Dennis has his issues, but he's not a bad -hearted guy.

[1315] So in his kind of crazy ideological frame, he actually thinks he's helping.

[1316] So he thinks he can go over there and talk some sense into that guy?

[1317] Or by playing basketball, you know, whatever he's...

[1318] Yeah, look it.

[1319] I mean, it's not a good shot.

[1320] I mean, you know what I mean?

[1321] It's not a good look, but...

[1322] Yeah, I mean, he's hanging around with a murderous dictator, hoping for the best.

[1323] But that's what I mean about the naivete, and I don't mean to cash it on Dennis.

[1324] I really love Dennis.

[1325] It's been nothing but a total sweetheart to me in my life.

[1326] But Dennis would, in a very naive way, believe that he's actually helping.

[1327] It's a very gangster move to go over there, though.

[1328] I mean, it seems very dangerous.

[1329] But that's where the other side of Dennis makes a certain sense is like, I'll do it.

[1330] Yeah.

[1331] Remember when he was dressing up and drag and, you know, it's like, I'll be that guy.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] So somehow it sort of works in his, again, I'm not trying to speak.

[1334] for him but he was one of my favorite guys in celebrity rehab because he was like working out every day drinking water dude i used to go into the bull's locker room after games and he would work out after games really we go and to go because we were going to go out clubbing or whatever and you go in the locker room and he'd be working out and we have to sit and wait for him to work out for another 40 minutes after the game and he played it wasn't like he was had a knee injury i mean he played the whole game like what kind of workouts you like lifting weights or something treadmill you know whatever whatever he was doing.

[1335] Wow.

[1336] And it wasn't like light stretching.

[1337] It was like energize it.

[1338] And then we go out and stay out all night.

[1339] Jesus.

[1340] You want a quick story?

[1341] So I'm hanging out with the Bulls.

[1342] It's the first time they're playing Utah.

[1343] They, and it's a very, it's a series the Bulls probably should have lost, but they didn't.

[1344] It's the famous game where, the famous series where Michael had the flu and scored 36 points.

[1345] I don't know if you know that game.

[1346] It's like one of the most famous games.

[1347] Michael legit had crazy flu and scored 36 and they won the game and they won the series.

[1348] So in between one of those games, Dennis knows some billionaire.

[1349] There's a day off.

[1350] We get on the billionaire's plane and we fly to Vegas.

[1351] We stay out all night gambling.

[1352] And this is Dennis like rubbing dice on people's bodies and throwing the dice so drunk.

[1353] They're bouncing out of the craps pit.

[1354] I mean, just total mess.

[1355] And you're thinking, how is this going to help us win a championship?

[1356] very much a fan mentality.

[1357] I'm thinking, you know, naively, I'm going to kind of rain him in.

[1358] So we stay out all night.

[1359] We never go to bed.

[1360] We fly on the private plane back to make the morning press shoot around back in Utah.

[1361] So we've only been in Vegas for like eight hours.

[1362] So 9 a .m., I'm sitting in the stands.

[1363] I haven't slept at all.

[1364] They do the whatever.

[1365] shoot around and Dennis walks up and says let's go back go back where the hotel no let's go back to Vegas so after the morning shoot around drove to the airport to fly commercial because now the billioners not just flying them back again and gets on a plane commercial and has given me shit because I don't want to go back to Vegas with him Jesus Christ on the off day and this is during the NBA NBA finals so through some sort of weird you know how the world works I end up somewhere I go to play miniature golf or something in Park City, Utah, where the Bulls were staying and Phil Jackson and his families had just happened to be there on like an off day and Phil's given me the look of death because I'm the one responsible for Dennis going to Vegas The rock star dragged him to party and you ruined it Oh, that's hilarious And I'm thinking, you don't understand I'm the one to tell him not the go I want to win a championship Or at least I won't No, what are you going to say to Phil Jackson?

[1366] Have you ever met Phil Jackson?

[1367] No. Phil Jackson's an intimidating guy.

[1368] I mean, he plays very Zen on TV, but in person he's very intimidating.

[1369] Six -seven, six -eight.

[1370] And he was legitimately upset at you?

[1371] Let's just say it wasn't a nice encounter.

[1372] And I love Phil Jackson.

[1373] I mean, I love those years.

[1374] I love those teams, and I was lucky to be around them a lot.

[1375] I used to say, look, watching this team is like 1927 Yankees.

[1376] I mean, you will look back very fondly on this time and to even be in that bubble at all.

[1377] And it was awesome.

[1378] But yeah, I mean, catch in shade from Phil Jackson at the height of the bulls thing.

[1379] It was just so funny.

[1380] And I'm playing miniature golf.

[1381] And, you know, it's so uncomfortable.

[1382] That is hilarious.

[1383] Do you still keep in touch with Dennis?

[1384] No. Dennis is sort of, he kind of trotted out into the ether.

[1385] And, you know, it's hard to follow.

[1386] Under my thing, it falls under what I call the celeb friendship.

[1387] I've at various times had to have, I tried to have friendships, legitimate friendships with very famous people.

[1388] and the way they run their worlds is I'm sure you've encountered it's like it's like you got to go through this guy to talk to this guy and then the message doesn't get through and I think oh fuck all that I'm not doing that yeah I don't if I can't just text you I can't be friends with you yeah I get into the weird thing of like you yeah you tell Larry the guy and then Larry never tells the guy and then the guy's upset at Larry but Larry's looking at you like yeah we had to go do this thing and I just I can't do any of that yeah there's a few guys that are like that right there's a few It's weird.

[1389] I feel like when someone reaches a certain level of success, especially fame, they get people to sort of handle certain menial tasks.

[1390] And then that person sort of becomes their babysitter.

[1391] Yeah.

[1392] I have very few friends that are famous and it's one -on -one.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] Or forget it.

[1395] No, it's the only way to do it.

[1396] Even if I'm a fan.

[1397] I mean, there are people I've, you know, I could call them up kind of thing that, I mean, they're like my absolutely.

[1398] idols but if I can't have that rapport it's like forget it it's just it's almost too weird it's like because why then am I am I a fan guy hanging around hoping he's going to throw me a bone right and talk me about you know their second album you know and it's like it gets into that kind of uncomfortable space you're you're making the same mistake I don't want people to make right I don't want people around me like some of my friends are the room they talk to me like I'm the guy from Glendale Heights like there's no star trip with me like I want everyone to be straight up I don't want any of that I don't need it well it's like what you were talking about turning 50 you know like you're 50 you don't give a fuck anymore it's like that's one of the good things I did give a fuck before 50 but now I get to declare it yeah but it's great that you're willing to be this guy and be yourself openly because one of the things about music in particular but I guess a lot of other areas of show business too is that people really protect that image they protect that brand they protect that that thing that they're projecting to their fans, they have this idea what their fans want, and they hold that really sacred.

[1399] But I think pulling the curtain back, the way you do, I think it's very brave, but it's also very important.

[1400] I've certainly had moments in my life where I wondered if I had it to do all over again.

[1401] Like sometimes I'll riff with a, like, a journalist that I know enough to sort of riff with.

[1402] Right.

[1403] And I say, because sometimes they'll say, like, do you feel you're underappreciated as an artist or you didn't feel you didn't get to do you deserve and i'm like yeah that's absolutely and maybe everybody feels that way but i certainly feel that way and so my little funny uh rors sec a blob question for them is if i'd never open my mouth and all you had on me was my music would you have a different opinion they always say the same thing absolutely that's weird right yeah so did my mouth you know boot me down the ladder or you know what i mean I don't know.

[1404] It's fun to play.

[1405] It's like a parlor game.

[1406] It's too late now.

[1407] Well, I think it's a different opinion, but it's not a lesser or greater opinion.

[1408] I mean, my opinion of you is greater, seeing that you are this very open, honest, regular.

[1409] But if I knew you, like, if I didn't know of your music, I would go, oh, it's a regular guy.

[1410] But a lot of people don't like that.

[1411] They don't like regular guys.

[1412] No. It's a fantasy world.

[1413] Yeah, that's part of the music business, right?

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] I got to ask you this one thing for it.

[1416] Because I read this, and I was like, what?

[1417] Here we go.

[1418] You saw someone shapeshift?

[1419] Oh, God.

[1420] Is that real, or were you fucking with people?

[1421] No, it's true.

[1422] Really?

[1423] Yeah, it's true.

[1424] Because when you told me that you enjoy Kaufman -like moments, I was like, okay.

[1425] No, no, it's true.

[1426] I would tell you off -grade, but I won't say it publicly.

[1427] Really?

[1428] The only way I'd say it publicly is if I write it in.

[1429] I've been writing this book for years, and it's, in the book.

[1430] So I'd tell you off -grid, but I can't, it's, look, I know Alex Jones sat in the seat, you know, right?

[1431] I know you've been on InfoWars.

[1432] I've been on InfoWars, too.

[1433] Oh, yeah, I think three or four times, yeah.

[1434] What have you been on InfoWars for?

[1435] Mostly talking about free speech.

[1436] I think that's, I think that's one thing that is critical in alternative media, is to fight.

[1437] like that's a front line issue for me yeah this demonetizing of people's videos and trying to censor messages and even how in uh the twitter exec just recently admitted in front of congress how they were suppressing a negative hillary hashtags and stuff yes i mean that's crazy to me yes i think so too that like you got somebody openly saying yeah we were you know if we're going to sit here and go on and on about russian collusion i mean is that not an in -kind donation well you you You're manipulating people's ability to feel like strange ideas.

[1438] So as an artist who's been in the public sphere almost 30 years and I've seen people manipulate my image and turn me into a meme and all this stuff, I'm very sensitive to if somebody wants to deny me the right to either reply or get my message out.

[1439] Right.

[1440] As long as we have that ability, I trust our democracy.

[1441] We need people like you and me and anybody else.

[1442] Like, great.

[1443] I think our democracy is better for it.

[1444] And that includes people who say things that I don't approve of or like.

[1445] I'd rather have them say it than not say it.

[1446] I agree as well.

[1447] And I think it's very important that if people do say those things that you don't approve of or like, that other people express why they don't approve of those things like them.

[1448] And the only way that happens is if you hear the initial thought.

[1449] You have to hear the one thing that you don't like in order for someone to say something that resonates.

[1450] You go, yes, that's why we disagree with that initial thought.

[1451] Okay, so I've got to use any example.

[1452] if we if we generally agree that an idea is so abhorrent or so racist or so bigoted then what are we afraid of because the the argument should be that the collective agrees that that is an inappropriate thing to do and express and then socially we can sort of correct course and it gives the other person on the other side the opportunity to course correct too yes in essence if you're not if you're so sure of an idea being true what are you afraid of Right, right.

[1453] Why can that idea not withstand the dirtiest, most scurrilous thing that can be thrown at it?

[1454] Yeah, it's one of the more uncomfortable things about people on the left today is this newly embraced idea that you should be able to suppress ideas you don't agree with.

[1455] That's terrifying.

[1456] It is terrifying.

[1457] That's terrifying.

[1458] I agree.

[1459] Let's wrap this up so I can hear your shape shifts story.

[1460] I want to hear that, man. Let's put it this way.

[1461] It's pretty wild.

[1462] I believe you.

[1463] I just wish you could tell other people.

[1464] I will.

[1465] I will someday.

[1466] You'll put it in a book.

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] So please tell people how they can see you, the name of your new album, where they can get it.

[1469] I have an album out solo acoustic O .G. Lala, produced by Rick Rubin.

[1470] It just came out about a month ago.

[1471] I'm just finishing up my tour dates in L .A., so that's pretty much done.

[1472] I'm going to go record another acoustic album, and then hopefully next year they'll be a pumpkin's tour.

[1473] Awesome.

[1474] That'll be beautiful.

[1475] Our fingers are crossed.

[1476] Well, thank you, Billy.

[1477] I really appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you.

[1478] My pleasure.

[1479] All right, folks.

[1480] That's it.

[1481] See.