187 - Live at the Toyota Music Factory in Irving (Texas)

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Now we have to pass out some consent forms, so everybody, just a quick release.

[2] I hope you brought pens.

[3] Look it, we're on a thing.

[4] Don't look, don't look at it.

[5] They can tell that my nails are, what I'm calling Dalmatian, that's the new thing.

[6] I picked them all off.

[7] That's what happened, really.

[8] As you chip off black nail polish, you slowly become one of Corella DeVille's.

[9] Most coveted animals The Dalmatian You know You know how it is Hi friends I mean how's everyone doing I feel like this set up More than any we've ever done before Really feels like we're about to sell people a timeshare Doesn't it?

[10] Yeah We got our little earpieces It's real megachurchy in here right now It's real Open to Leviticus 516 please.

[11] Quick question.

[12] Have you heard the good word?

[13] Oh.

[14] Tell me. Speaking of, it's, guess what?

[15] Guess what the good word is?

[16] promo code murder.

[17] That's right.

[18] Right?

[19] I, um, that reminds me when we were on the plane two days ago, I was sitting, we like got last minute seats, so we were all in window seats, so it was in next event, and I was next to some dude who wouldn't stop highlighting and writing in a book, which means that I was being constantly, elbowed, and I was really getting angry at it, about to turn and yell at him, and when I turned, it was the Bible.

[20] And I was like, shit, I can't scream at him.

[21] And then you looked into his face, and it was Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord.

[22] I did.

[23] Taking an American flight, real quick.

[24] That's right.

[25] Real quick.

[26] Extra leg room.

[27] He can bump it up for that.

[28] That's right.

[29] That's it.

[30] And I screamed in his face.

[31] No, I didn't.

[32] No. I just said, excuse me, and I asked, to do next events and he'd trade with me. So do you want a fucking window seat?

[33] And he was like, yeah.

[34] And then I see the two of them getting along super well, the Bible guy and this new guy.

[35] And I was like, oh, I'm a fucking terrible person.

[36] Oh, it's me. You know, the guy that you asked to sit in your seat, it turns out that his parents always neglected his left arm, just would not touch it, wouldn't touch it.

[37] Hated it, told him it was ugly and bad.

[38] Boom.

[39] Here's this guy rubbing up against it from the word go.

[40] So I basically, like I'm the best person in the world.

[41] Yeah, you are.

[42] Absolutely is the moral of this story.

[43] That was actually a meet -cute at the beginning of a movie you're not starring in.

[44] It's their movie.

[45] It's not your movie.

[46] Oh, come on.

[47] That's cute.

[48] Hey, I have to, right now, in front of everybody, thank Georgia, because I, as I always will, there will be a little bit of outfit drama for me before we do these shows.

[49] mostly because subconsciously I do not want to have to put on the Spanx military grade body armor that I'm wearing right now.

[50] I hate it.

[51] I'm a little bum, real quick side note about your Spanx military grade because we had a thing for a little while where I was helping her get into it and it was like kind of this fun bonding thing for me because I love, like to me that's like if you show your friend your undergarments like that's friendship.

[52] Right.

[53] So like we did a thing and then you realized.

[54] Especially when you're kind of of, you weirdly are shaping in a way that you, well, here's the deal.

[55] And I was livid for, I don't know, I guess the last five months we've been on tour, because I was like, I would pull it up and then it would stop right at like this chunk of back fat where I'm like, first of all, I didn't know that was there.

[56] Secondly, clearly they make these for women who have rolls of fat on their back.

[57] So why in God's name would you have to give yourself carpal tunnel to get the thing up onto your body?

[58] Yeah.

[59] I was so angry.

[60] And then you're sweating.

[61] sweating like a nut and then I have to pull in Georgia to be like I need you to pull up the back of my girdle for fuck's sake and I'm like yay like so excited about it pushing her way into the bathroom well last night I discovered that I just had everything on the tightest possible thing like I had it all on small and then I just unhooked it four and I was like I don't need you anymore I'm fine I'm sad I didn't realize I thought it bugged you no I love it okay we should talk about stuff more Let's talk about things.

[62] So I usually, I usually, we'll leave one thing behind so that maybe there's a chance that I just get to wear sweats on stage.

[63] That's always my subconscious is working at all times to be like, well, I guess you better just wear those sweats you wore here.

[64] So I unpack my stuff tonight and I'm like, oh, fuck, I forgot my tights.

[65] And George was like, you can have mine.

[66] And I was like, fuck, okay.

[67] That'd be great actually That's gonna look really cute Shit Oh I should have said no No you shouldn't have No they look great Come on we're in Dallas doing a show Then I fall backwards And break my back Is this a new pop of color Karen that I'm Because like I think this is great I think by the summertime I'm gonna be wearing red and yellow polka dots And I'm gonna be fucking My golf days will be behind me Starting with these purple tights But do you remember on our first tour ever I had to borrow tights from you then And I still have them in my drawer Hot pink tights Oh my God From 2016, that's right We go back three fucking years Thank you Thank you so much We've laughed, we've grown We've loved I've taken two full pairs of Georgia's tights And that's how you know Something So you know something.

[68] How about your outfit?

[69] Oh, this is Yeah.

[70] Bow to your partner.

[71] Did I just show you my underwear?

[72] Did you really?

[73] And it was on the big screen.

[74] I was wearing tights the last two nights I did that and no one saw my ass.

[75] Can we roll that tape back on the big screen please?

[76] No, never again.

[77] Shit.

[78] I blame the murderino who gave me this dress.

[79] Sarah Duke from fucking Canada.

[80] I'm coming for you.

[81] You're going to blame her?

[82] Yeah, it's her fault.

[83] How do you figure?

[84] Listen.

[85] Because A, B, and C. She should have sewn in kick pants in that dress?

[86] That's right.

[87] That's fucking right.

[88] Sarah, where are the bicycle shorts?

[89] I demanded that you sew into my dress.

[90] I can't stop looking up there now.

[91] Okay, I'm going to look away.

[92] you should take a selfie of yourself in front of that screen don't you think I do should I send it to my dad that's weird my dad text and said have fun in insert city tonight because he just doesn't ever know where we are I like to afford my dad the itinerary that Vince sends us Vince Averill who's our tour manager and Georgia's husband thank you you do that?

[93] Yeah.

[94] Oh, I thought neither of us open the itinerary.

[95] You know who opens the itinerary?

[96] Jim Kilgarraf, and he's very interested.

[97] So he will basically read the email very thoroughly.

[98] He knows exactly when I land and take off now.

[99] So, like, I'll be walking, like, down the, out of the corridor to get off the plane and immediately get a text.

[100] How was the flight?

[101] Where it's like, ew.

[102] But then he also loves to look up the theater and then just tell me, he'll be like, Karen, tonight there's 4 ,500 seats in that theater or whatever.

[103] He'll like, tell me about what I'm about to go do.

[104] I love that between Vince and Jim, like, and they have similar personalities.

[105] They do.

[106] We've just got everything covered.

[107] We don't have to think about a thing.

[108] Except for our underpants.

[109] Tights and underwear and not showing them to the whole world.

[110] Look, sex sells, and that's what we're here to do tonight.

[111] Because, ladies and gentlemen, we have some exciting timeshares in Mazatlan.

[112] that we think are perfect for your family and a weird relative that has money.

[113] Jesus loves them.

[114] Have you heard about Jesus?

[115] He loves them.

[116] I wonder if there's anyone that sells time shares during, like, a mass or at some kind of a church service.

[117] They've got to.

[118] If you've got to combine those two, just because people are busy these days.

[119] A lot of people have two and three jobs.

[120] They don't have time to do, like, a Saturday, time share Sunday Mass. Yeah.

[121] I call it Mass. It's not a mass. a temple combine them all of us non -denomination just a hang let's call it a religious hang speaking of oh this is my this is my favorite heard of the podcast nice transition really nice transition this is Karen Kilgaris this is Georgia Hardstock thank you thank you you remember from the underwear earlier um Steven's here under here No No We left him at home Steven's at home Head Engineering The Exactly Right Podcast Network That's right That's right They gave us a podcast network They just were like Do you want one?

[122] We're like yeah Yeah we'll have Stephen run it You know what I just realized What's this?

[123] I put a pin on my dress tonight Because the last few nights I've been flashing my bra on accident Because I'm not used to cleavage happening and then I showed everyone my fucking underwear I know.

[124] Just start streaking at the beginning of every show.

[125] I mean...

[126] I think it's what you want.

[127] I guess.

[128] It's natural.

[129] Is it?

[130] Is it?

[131] It's not.

[132] It isn't.

[133] Um, should we sit down?

[134] Should we?

[135] Oh.

[136] Well.

[137] Are we good enough to?

[138] I don't know.

[139] Are we mid -century modern enough to?

[140] I mean...

[141] Where are they from?

[142] Anderson Cooper's house?

[143] Oh, my, these are...

[144] Oh, they don't spin.

[145] They don't spin.

[146] You have to manually turn them anytime you want to...

[147] I better...

[148] Okay, let's cheat out then.

[149] Let's do it.

[150] There we go.

[151] Oh, yeah.

[152] These are cushy.

[153] Good stuff?

[154] Are you spinning in your chair?

[155] A little bit.

[156] Oh.

[157] Wait a second.

[158] This fits my butt perfectly.

[159] Thank you.

[160] Good job, Dallas.

[161] Thank you, Dallas.

[162] Here's your top.

[163] Here's your extra towel.

[164] And then there's...

[165] Is this one mine?

[166] That's yours.

[167] Last night we were at a venue that had, like, box suites for people who were, like, ticket holders.

[168] So, yeah, so...

[169] For real.

[170] It was...

[171] We had to give them the, like, extra long speech of what this is.

[172] God.

[173] But they stayed.

[174] I feel bad for season ticket holders that shows that we go do, because, as you probably have heard us tell this story, if you listen to the podcast, and then if you don't, I'll get to you in a minute.

[175] But there have been times, and I think the last time it was it in Austin, where there were two women who showed up at our show.

[176] Yeah, and they were season ticket holders for that theater, and they were led to believe or put together that what they were about to see was the sequel to Phantom of the Opera.

[177] Yeah.

[178] And they...

[179] It's not.

[180] It's why I. Oh, yeah, that's...

[181] We should let you know it.

[182] That's what you're here for.

[183] First of all, it ends when the Phantom of the Opera ends.

[184] There's no other part.

[185] But the reason we know that is because the murderino's sitting next to them and the audience caught wind of it and we're like, this is the best thing of all time and then told us in the meet and greet.

[186] I don't want my money back.

[187] Yeah, I would be devastated, actually.

[188] But then there was another time where, and I think those ladies ended up staying and liking it, which is a miracle.

[189] Right?

[190] But then there was another time where there were a couple of season ticket holders who thought they would love the show because they thought it was a murder mystery dinner theater.

[191] It's not.

[192] It's not, you guys.

[193] We serve dinner.

[194] I hope you guys like pot roast.

[195] Georgia made one small pot roast in the back.

[196] Everyone gets a tiny piece.

[197] But tell them what this really is.

[198] Oh, okay, but actually what this is, for the people who have been dragged along here by their mates, friends, spouses, or neighbors, Which doesn't stop happening.

[199] This is a, if you don't know, this is a true crime comedy podcast.

[200] There are some people who immediately flinch at that title.

[201] They don't like it, and they're offended by it, and they think it's wrong, that you would combine the worst thing that could happen in life, which is murder or violent crime and comedy.

[202] And so this is the part where we explain that George and I have always been interested in true crime since we're very young, but we also have coped with the heavy, terrible shit in life with humor.

[203] And so because of that, our call.

[204] conversations about these things are usually infused with humor.

[205] And of course, we have respect.

[206] It's like you have to listen to the podcast to know who we are to get it.

[207] The thing is, what we're saying is, if you're offended, we cordially now invite you to get the fuck out, seriously.

[208] Except for the Eshers, not the Eshers, who can't leave.

[209] They can't leave, and, you know, and they're right to be mad, actually.

[210] It isn't fair.

[211] We forgot to tell the story of getting picked up this afternoon.

[212] Guys.

[213] So we get picked up at the hotel by someone who works at the venue and brings us over where Vince has been setting things up and dealing with shit.

[214] And so I call the guy when I'm out front of the hotel and I'm like, hey, I'm here, I don't see your van.

[215] And he's quiet for a minute and then he goes, are you performing tonight?

[216] And I'm like, yeah, hi, it's George.

[217] I'm performing tonight.

[218] And he goes, oh, I'll be right there.

[219] And I see a van fucking speed and a couple minutes later.

[220] Eden, and two, you guys fucking tumbled out of the fucking van.

[221] These two drunks roll out of the van.

[222] He picked up the wrong two girls.

[223] You know what?

[224] Here's the thing, though.

[225] They all look the same, seriously.

[226] I see it, dark hair, everything, and they're like, we're coming tonight, we're like, don't know what's going on.

[227] I was baffled.

[228] I had just walked out of the hotel and I was like, wait, are we getting into a shuttle bus?

[229] I don't, what is this?

[230] And these girls are like, Hey, yeah, we were in there, but now we're here.

[231] It's just like, holy fuck, what's happening?

[232] Are we doing, are we having a show with more than two people tonight?

[233] And then he goes, I just said to them, are you guys going to the theater?

[234] And they said, yeah, so I let them in.

[235] And then he was at the stoplight when I called.

[236] And he's like, are you doing the show tonight?

[237] And turn to them and go, are you guys not doing the show?

[238] They're like, do we have to do the show?

[239] Okay, we can.

[240] Seriously, anybody could, seriously.

[241] It's really.

[242] I think you've caught on to that by now.

[243] I mean, probably better.

[244] I just wish that he had delivered two random women to Vince who would have been like Wow!

[245] And I'm like, yeah, pre -party.

[246] What?

[247] This is not my beautiful way.

[248] This is not my beautiful theater in Irving, Texas.

[249] That looks right.

[250] Hi, guys.

[251] Hello, that night.

[252] It's exciting.

[253] We both have clickers.

[254] Oh my God, our own clickers.

[255] You know what that means?

[256] What?

[257] I can go forward in your pictures if I want to.

[258] Yeah.

[259] All right.

[260] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[261] Absolutely.

[262] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[263] Exactly.

[264] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[265] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[266] That's right.

[267] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.

[268] Give your point of sales system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[269] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in person.

[270] So give your point of sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[271] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[272] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[273] Connect with customers in line and online.

[274] Do retail right with Shopify.

[275] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[276] important note that promo code is all lowercase go to shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today that's shopify .com slash murder goodbye um you're first night it's me it's me it's me Karen so I've decided to use the uh loophole in the fact that we are not actually in Dallas proper but we're right outside in Irvin Texas and uh using that as an excuse I'm going to do one of my very favorite true crime stories ever, the Texas cheerleader mom murder plot.

[277] This one, I mean, this one, guys, shit.

[278] It's got everything.

[279] I don't think I know the details.

[280] Really?

[281] Maybe you should tell them to me. I think I'm going to.

[282] For eight fucking pages.

[283] Okay.

[284] But I talk fast, and the print is very large.

[285] Mine's short and depressing, so do your thing.

[286] Okay, perfect.

[287] We like to end on a down note.

[288] That's right.

[289] That's how we do.

[290] Okay, so because we're here in Texas, and this is how we do it, the main research, the article that I read, that got most of the research and most of this color and amazing background, is from Texas Monthly, of course.

[291] It's so rude that you guys would keep this magazine to yourselves for so long.

[292] Yeah.

[293] We've only known about it for like a year, and it sucks.

[294] It was written by a writer named Mimi Swartz, who's amazing and talented.

[295] There's also an article by Gwendolyn Knapp, who actually was the author of the article I used last night as well.

[296] She writes for Houstonia .com.

[297] Was she the one when a girl in the front goes, she's here?

[298] And I go, she's here, and she goes, no. Yeah.

[299] That sucks.

[300] That's why I say, do not talk to them.

[301] Are people fucking with you in the front row?

[302] Not cool.

[303] Just kidding.

[304] Anyway, go ahead.

[305] Go ahead.

[306] Do what you're going to say.

[307] So let's just start with the subject of this amazing story, Ms. Wanda Holloway.

[308] Yes.

[309] Holy shit.

[310] Those are some fashion for nails, if I've ever seen any.

[311] And eyebrows.

[312] And the ring.

[313] Now here's the thing about Wanda.

[314] if you were like two days late for your license or registration renewal this bitch would shut you down at the DMV so fast I cannot even tell you wow this is the woman who this is the woman who asks for the manager and then fires the manager and becomes the manager that's that's Wanda Holloway is that the secret yeah that's the secret it's the law of attraction and firing people where you don't work and of course the classic red flag that we all know the eternal red flag which is incredibly overplucked eyebrows.

[315] You know you're dealing with a real personality if that's what you're looking at and I say that non -judgmentally as a person who entirely decimated my own eyebrows during the 90s they were like Clara Bow but with just one hair going along.

[316] It almost looked like a dot to dot over my eyes.

[317] Like, these are these used to be.

[318] Fill it in if you want to.

[319] Oh, that's so depressing.

[320] The one hair.

[321] Like, it's worse than when you just shave it off and draw them on.

[322] Yeah, no. Like still trying.

[323] Because, well, to my point, I was on speed.

[324] So, red flag.

[325] Right?

[326] You know, stay away from me. I'll steal your cigarettes right out of your purse.

[327] So, we're just the picture for you.

[328] Okay, so she was born Wanda Webb, she was born in 1954, and she was raised in a city called Channel View, Texas, which is the third character in this, or I guess fifth, but in this story, it's just east of the Houston metro area, and it is an unabashedly rough working class, mostly white community.

[329] So Mitzi Swartz starts this article off with this description of Channel View.

[330] When the cold, steady winter rain starts to fall, as it did unrelentingly last January, Channel View seems drenched in a dingy futility.

[331] The only color seems to be the perilous orange of the refinery gas flares.

[332] At the Del Dale Dale Highway exit, a white elephant rearing about the flea market.

[333] Remember we drove by that?

[334] Oh, yeah.

[335] Yeah.

[336] About the flea market looks hopelessly grimy, and off the road, the rain soaks the yards of the tract and trailer homes to a dirty brown.

[337] In such weather, people lose their resolve.

[338] In the Baptist temples, they turn to hymns of salvation, but do not keep time with the melody.

[339] In the pawn shops, I know.

[340] Didn't that get you?

[341] Like, oh, fuck.

[342] That's right.

[343] And that's why I say, white people, do not clap.

[344] If you're at a concert and someone starts going like this, you keep your hands right where they are.

[345] No one needs your bullshit help.

[346] Back to Mimi Schwartz.

[347] In pawn shops, they hawk their baby furniture, stub out their cigarettes, and think about looking for work out of town.

[348] Winter and Channel View can bring menace and breed hopelessness, two qualities with which Wanda Holloway, who had spent most of her life here, was more than well -acquainted.

[349] Fuck, Mitzi!

[350] I mean, Mimi.

[351] Sorry, Mimi.

[352] And you know what?

[353] I just want to say, though, but don't let that stop you from this amazing operation.

[354] opportunity of a time share in Channel View.

[355] Doesn't that make you want to...

[356] Because if you just hawk a little more baby furniture, you too can have a beachside retreat.

[357] Flea market side retreat in Channel View.

[358] And then later on in the article, she quotes a criminal attorney named Mike Ramsey who said, God created Channel View so people of Pasadena would have some place to look down on.

[359] Man. Local jokes got.

[360] local work, am I right?

[361] We don't know what that means.

[362] I don't know what it means.

[363] Don't be offended that I said that because I don't.

[364] It sounds me. In our, where we're from, Pasadena is a very rich area.

[365] So we don't, doesn't really translate.

[366] Very beautiful.

[367] And also she later mentions that the welcome sign of the city of Channel View.

[368] Oh my God.

[369] It's like they're welcome like Channel View population, whatever it is.

[370] And then it says, don't mess with Channel View.

[371] Okay, first of all, you stole that from your.

[372] state so shut the fuck up and sadly I'm fucking a mess of Channel View, shut up.

[373] Okay.

[374] So, drunk Karen lives in Channel View I think.

[375] Drunk Karen would thrive in Channel View.

[376] It's true.

[377] The mayor of Channel View.

[378] Drunk Karen would be swinging her purse in Channel View and making friends all over the flea market.

[379] I can't wait.

[380] I may retire there.

[381] Okay, so Wanda grows up in Channel View on the south side of town.

[382] Okay.

[383] Okay.

[384] In this town.

[385] Her father Clyde is a tester at a concrete plant and her mother works in the high school cafeteria.

[386] A tester, like taste tester?

[387] It's too salty.

[388] That's too...

[389] That's a shitty job.

[390] His mouth is always a little bit open.

[391] You can't walk here, young lady.

[392] Both parents are strict conservatives.

[393] Wanda is an ambitious overachieving child who excels in school, particularly later on in high school in her business classes, but what she really wants more than anything else in the world, as you may have guessed, is to be a cheerleader.

[394] Okay.

[395] I mean, me too, on all of this so far.

[396] Right.

[397] None of it.

[398] Oh.

[399] Well, you know what this made me think of is when my niece, Nora, was in preschool, we went to, like, an open house at the preschool, and they had pictures of all the little kids on the wall they're a bunch of four -year -olds and then it said like the name and like their favorite animal what they wanted to be when they grew up and we were walking down and reading all the different you know hopes high hopes and dreams of the kids and we get to my niece Nora's and it says Nora you know cat and then I want to be a cheerleader and my sister's like oh my fucking God where did this come from she had no idea it's not like Nora was like around the house doing it was just like out of the blue and then the whole family gave my sister shit for so long it's like great job with Nora big dreams of being a professional cheerleader and then not that there's anything wrong with that and then could you imagine if we made a bunch of professional cheerleaders mad they would make a cheer about it that would be so sad they would they would make a pyramid to the sky that's right of rage a rage pyramid That's a best pyramid.

[400] A rage pyramid?

[401] Yeah.

[402] I mean, I'll flip down off of it.

[403] Land, stab us.

[404] Wanda's greatest dream in life was to become a cheerleader, but her ultra -conservative parents forbid her to try out.

[405] Her father says that he thinks the uniforms are skimpy and horish.

[406] Judgey.

[407] Right?

[408] And this is also 1971, where they're a little bulky, actually, and very generous.

[409] Although, I hear in Channel View, they had, it was gold lamay tube tops and Daisy Dukes, but we don't know.

[410] That's just gossip.

[411] Okay, so with that, Wanda's cheerleading dream dies on the vine.

[412] It's clearly the inciting incident in Wanda's life story.

[413] And for good reason.

[414] We're back to Mimi Swartz in her article.

[415] If you can read it, it's the most beautifully written, poetic, and yet informative, amazing.

[416] it's like that kind of thing where you're getting the actual story of the people as opposed to what's on the front of like People magazine which is all you got with this story.

[417] So she says quote, those who dismiss cheerleading is trivial and vapid miss its essential and enduring reality that it is still one of the best ways a young woman can advance herself socially not just in school but beyond.

[418] If it remains important in a place like Plano where a child can have many options it is it is doubly so in a place like Channel View where feminine beauty is short -lived and harshness is the norm She is just fucking tearing everyone up in this article She's well she's describing what she sees But she's doing it in a way that's like Did she just insult me?

[419] I can't tell because that was so beautiful Yeah Did you just put your cigarette out in my drink?

[420] That's kind of cool so essentially her not becoming a cheerleader becomes this tiny but malignant tumor in her brain I'm trying to act like Mimi Swartz and I'm not okay so Wanda graduates from high school in 1971 sure her idea was she was going to pursue an education in business but in 1972 at the age of 18 she quits that and she marries a guy named Tony Harper who she had known for most of her life together they have two kids Shane who was born in 1973 and Shanna, who was born in 1977.

[421] Then Wanda gets a job as a secretary.

[422] She plays piano at their church, and she's a well -regarded member of the Channel View community and lifelong.

[423] And the locals describe her as a lovely person, and then the words of her daughter's junior high school principal, quote, very refined, speaks good English, and is beautifully attired.

[424] Sign the principal.

[425] The junior high, that's weird.

[426] Can you be like, mom, I think the principal's into you.

[427] Oh, did you hear her English?

[428] Yeah, she's from here.

[429] What do you?

[430] It's not that big of a deal.

[431] In 1980, Wanda and Tony get a divorce.

[432] Wanda gets the house and the primary custody of the kids.

[433] She briefly remarries an older, wealthier man from Beaumont.

[434] Hey, girl.

[435] Okay.

[436] That ends quickly.

[437] Her third marriage is to another older, wealthy man. man named C .D. Holloway, who owns his own oil field service company.

[438] So they stay living in Wanda's house, which is what the kids are used to, but C .D. is rich, and so he has money to buy Wanda, everything she could ever want.

[439] Sounds fun.

[440] Right?

[441] Money's kind of great.

[442] It's like, don't get it twisted.

[443] So the thing is, though, as I have said and described, or the Mimi has that's not what Channel View is about so most people who live there work at the petrochemical plants they all essentially make the same amount of money because they all work in the same places taste testing the oil right and they're like and if they have any more money than that they do not show it just everyone just kind of like it keeps to the status quo but Wanda goes ahead and shows her and her money because she loves it And so slowly but surely the locals start to think that Wanda is becoming pretentious.

[444] Uh -oh.

[445] Which is a major sin.

[446] So in 1983, when Shanna is five years old, Wanda buys her her first cheerleading uniform and signs her up for intensive gymnastic classes.

[447] Oh, hey.

[448] So here's Shanna.

[449] Oh, no, she's a little baby.

[450] Yeah.

[451] That's a baby.

[452] Her mom's got a plan.

[453] Hashtag Getty images.

[454] So Wanda is in a very intense cheerleading stage mom.

[455] She makes her daughter practice when she's sick and when she's injured.

[456] Five.

[457] Fun, because it's fun.

[458] That's fun.

[459] And that's what.

[460] No, she loves that.

[461] She loves doing it.

[462] Oh, my God.

[463] She loves to suffer.

[464] It's what she's always like.

[465] But Shanna, of course, loves her mom.

[466] It's the thing that they do together, you know.

[467] And she, so she wants to do that with her.

[468] and she sticks it out to make her mom happy.

[469] Then Wanda gets Shanna into private cheerleading lessons, private cheerleading lessons, away from others in a studio.

[470] They're all like, we know because we're from Texas, but we're like, we're from California.

[471] What the fuck?

[472] What?

[473] My parents smoked pot and hung out.

[474] I only ever took public cheerleading lessons.

[475] Right on the sidewalk.

[476] She also signs her up to do some modeling at the San Jacinto Mall.

[477] Oh.

[478] And she regularly forces her to wear matching mother -daughter outfits.

[479] Ooh, that's the scariest factoid in this story, probably.

[480] That's one step over the line.

[481] Yeah, it really is.

[482] We're like, great, break that kids back.

[483] Wait a minute.

[484] Wait a second.

[485] Matching sweaters?

[486] No. Mm -mm.

[487] That includes matching mother -daughter cheerleading costumes.

[488] Oh.

[489] Oh.

[490] Okay.

[491] look everybody has different interests everybody likes different things and everybody has different holes in their heart but they are trying to constantly fill with stuff like beer and cheerleading costumes so stop judging thank you thanks that's the one that's the one just what I do is I close my eyes and I just let it come through me it's beautiful thank you so much I would buy time share it there would you yeah in that channel in that part of your soul Like just saying that song I'm going to start fucking selling time shares in there Show business Okay in 1989 Shanna tries out for her seventh grade cheerleading squad at Alice Johnson Jr. High and doesn't make the cut.

[492] What?

[493] Oh, there were some bitches in that fucking team who were like, no, right?

[494] Right.

[495] Because she was great, probably.

[496] Well, here's what's crazy as I'm reading this story.

[497] The way they pick their cheerleaders is you audition and you have to make a cut, and then there's a couple too many cheerleaders, and then the school votes, the students vote on who the cheerleaders are going to be.

[498] Can we have a moment of just talking about how fucking terrible school was?

[499] Like, so glad.

[500] Can you imagine?

[501] I don't have to.

[502] It's like it was yesterday for me. Yeah, the idea that they would leave that just to the student body.

[503] The meanest people.

[504] Who do you like today?

[505] Vote on it.

[506] it.

[507] So, so, sorry, you can tell me more.

[508] There it is.

[509] The problem with this situation.

[510] So, of course, and obviously, Shanna is in this.

[511] You know what I mean?

[512] She's the one taking those fucking lessons.

[513] She's the one doing stuff and powering through it.

[514] So heartbreaking enough that she doesn't make the cut.

[515] That sucks.

[516] Yeah.

[517] And it's happened to all of us in some fucking different way, and it's horrifying.

[518] Meanwhile, they have a neighbor down.

[519] the street and her name is Amber Heath and she does make the cut and this makes Wanda fucking crazy because first of all Amber wasn't going to that junior high when she tried out and yeah disqualified right immediately that's what Wanda said and so uh once oh sorry I missed this important and heartbreaking detail once you make the cut and before the voting you campaign You campaigned to me. Here's how you should vote for me, and this is really important.

[520] Here's how you should vote for me. I can hurt you like a motherfucker.

[521] Anyway.

[522] It breaks my heart.

[523] So, where you go?

[524] So, Wanda tells everyone not to vote for Amber, the adult person in this situation.

[525] I believe she was 37 at the time, begins to tell children at a junior high not to vote for another child to be a motherfucker.

[526] hooray for the team on the field person.

[527] The other seventh grade boys.

[528] Let the women talk please.

[529] The other boys.

[530] A lot of blah, blah, blah, coming out over there.

[531] Truly.

[532] Yeah, I don't like that.

[533] Like the seventh grade boys playing football, the seventh grade girls cheering for them.

[534] Yeah.

[535] It's intense.

[536] It's gone fully Lord of the Flies and everybody seems to be in on it.

[537] Okay.

[538] Oh, this is so this is this is oh, this is Shannon when she's a little bit older.

[539] So this is not junior high, this is her as a teenager.

[540] Okay, that's her as a secretary of it.

[541] Yeah, and this is Amber Heath when she's older as well.

[542] Okay, got it.

[543] Who plays them in the made -for -TV movie?

[544] The last one was Chelsea Clinton.

[545] That's all I can tell you.

[546] Oh, I didn't know she was acting.

[547] She's acting and she's cheerleading these days, did you know?

[548] And she got a perm.

[549] Wanda goes around saying, Amber is an outsider.

[550] You shouldn't vote for her.

[551] Oh, God.

[552] Jesus Christ.

[553] how do you have time in your day?

[554] Now, Amber's mom, Verna Heath, who is from cheerleading stock herself, when Amber was going to try out, she helped Amber campaign by handing out flyers that said, vote for Amber, and then attaching a little peppermint candy to it.

[555] That's adorable, isn't it?

[556] Yeah.

[557] So it was 1989, so that blew everyone's mind, and they all voted for Amber.

[558] and she made it on to the cheerleading spot.

[559] A fucking pepper meat candy?

[560] Those are saying like, oh my God, this thing you can get for free in every fucking shit restaurant in town?

[561] It's like, it's almost like a technological miracle.

[562] We're like, holy shit, I didn't even think of this.

[563] Oh my God, we can have candy.

[564] Yeah, this is before things were actually marketed toward children in any way.

[565] It was like, it was all cigarettes and booze back then.

[566] Candy, for me?

[567] Sure, I'll make your daughter cheerleader.

[568] So like Wanda Holloway, Verna Heath, Amber's mom, is also a fiercely ambitious and competitive person.

[569] The only difference is Verna was a cheerleader in high school, and she was good at it.

[570] And she was from, as I said, stock because Verna's mother twirled baton.

[571] So these are fucking serious sports encourager people.

[572] Is that some DNA shit?

[573] That's past, it's hereditary.

[574] Okay.

[575] Just having a passion for those after -school activities that won't help.

[576] you get a job later.

[577] So Verna had also signed Amber up at the same time in the same intense gymnastics classes that Shanna trained at.

[578] So clearly when Amber wins out over Shanna, Wanda actually interprets that as she's losing to Verna Heath.

[579] Here's a picture of Verna Heath.

[580] Pensive.

[581] Yeah.

[582] She's thinking about all the fucked up shit that's about to happen in this story.

[583] Yeah.

[584] Ready?

[585] Yeah.

[586] So the next year in 1990, Shanna tries out for the junior high cheer swat again.

[587] And this time, Wanda calls her ex -husband, Tony, for help.

[588] She says, you have to help me pay.

[589] You have to split the cost.

[590] We're going to get rulers and pencils engraved with the phrase, vote for Shanna for cheerleader.

[591] And Wanda goes and passes them out to the students.

[592] You know how children love school supplies?

[593] Yes.

[594] That's like their favorite thing.

[595] Yeah.

[596] almost as much as peppermint candy so the junior high tells Wanda she's not allowed to hand those out that it's against school policy she hands them out anyway you know she was going walking around that school shoving engraved rulers and the principal's face like Verna handed out peppermic candy why is this any different of course she hands so she's warned not to do it she does it anyway she hands out it's so crazy She hands out the pencils and rulers, and then because she does that, she disqualifies Shanna from being a cheerleader.

[597] Don't punish the kid because your mom's kind of a dick.

[598] Well, it's also, she's, this is how much she's lost her way.

[599] Yeah.

[600] Because she's not doing the thing that's best for her child or the thing that's actually helping her child or moving her forward.

[601] Pepperments.

[602] She's just trying to, she's trying to fix it.

[603] She's trying to make herself feel better.

[604] Trying to win instead of.

[605] She's trying to win.

[606] Let her daughter cheer.

[607] All she's ever wanted to do is cheer.

[608] I don't know.

[609] Okay, so goodbye.

[610] That page is done.

[611] So, at this point, this is the saddest part, Shanna tells her parents, she doesn't even want to be a cheerleader.

[612] Oh, how'd that convo go, do you think?

[613] Well, you know that Wanda was like, this is not over.

[614] And she then forces Shanna to keep on training.

[615] That's the way to do it to your child is, them to do something they don't want to do anymore.

[616] Yeah, especially if they come to you and just really express the truth after years.

[617] So, but the thing is, Wanda has a plan, you see, because she's like, okay, fuck junior, hi cheerleading, we're going to do that high school shit, and we're going to get you on to the freshman high school team.

[618] So she knows that JV, that the, like, JV or freshman, I'm not sure which one, cheerleading squad tryouts are in March of 1991.

[619] So she's like, okay, we got three months, we're going to do this thing.

[620] The Tiger fucking cut, too.

[621] Yeah, cut too, and it's not to Shanna training.

[622] It's to Wanda taking a job in the high school band director's office.

[623] No. Thinking that she's going to get in there and make friends and cozy up and then basically win it over from the inside.

[624] Brilliant?

[625] Like, kind of brilliant?

[626] Diabolical.

[627] Except it's the kids that vote.

[628] Oh, right.

[629] But band director's like, ma 'am, I have no power here.

[630] I'm merely the band director It doesn't work Okay But never mind And I think it's probably because No one warmed up to her Because the issue would give You have to give to receive So Tryouts her like a few months away And Wanda is now desperate So she goes to her ex -brother -in -law Terry Harper That's Tony's brother Terry She goes and knocks on his trailer door and literally that's not a joke and um and she's said can i speak to you privately and southern karen is my new favorite right yeah southern mom karen i watched i watched wanda holloway on phil donahue oh my god you got to watch it it's really uncomfortable though because donahue keeps kind of messing up he he keeps messing up the names of things which how unprofessional is that oh my god No, he seems nervous.

[631] Donahue, if you're a millennial, there was a talk show host in the 70s and 80s.

[632] His name was Phil.

[633] Phil.

[634] Donahue.

[635] He was the greatest, so good.

[636] He handled every issue.

[637] It was like these one -hour -one topic talk shows that I would watch after school.

[638] Oh, absolutely.

[639] Unbelievable.

[640] Brave culture and...

[641] Yep.

[642] Boy George was on there.

[643] I was like, explain this to us.

[644] You're wearing makeup, but you're a man. Everyone's like, Yay.

[645] It's fucking, the world open to you when you watched Phil Donahue after school.

[646] And Wanda is so intimidating that Phil Donahue's like, so you're from Texas?

[647] It's really uncomfortable.

[648] But when she finally, because she's sitting there listening to him, but she's doing this kind of like, she's chewing invisible gum.

[649] It has the energy of chewing gum, but she's not chewing gum, and she's like, and then when she finally talked, she's like, well.

[650] We've been misportrayed in the media.

[651] We're just like, holy shit, is she going to kill everybody on the set of Donahue?

[652] So she gets her ex -brother -in -law, and she drives into a local convenience store, and they sit in the parking lot, and she says, I want you to help me kill Verna Heath and her 14 -year -old daughter, Amber.

[653] Holy shit.

[654] Yes.

[655] And Terry is like, no. I don't know no I'm not going to do that Wanda what a bummer if someone thinks that that's the kind of person like you're the person to go to for that not like wait what do you think of me I'm really nice actually and I like gardening and I journal a lot I highlight passages of the Bible when I'm on a plane just just because I have a very long mustache does not mean that I am violent what a bummer yeah so he refuses obviously Steven's violent.

[656] Don't get it twisted that's why he's not here that's not true I want to go ahead and Stephen mark that that's a lie about you you're going to want to pull it out there's a lot of them probably whatever else you want to pull out we never listen to it Stephen could be editing these shows any way he wants at the end we're like oh we did it you listen to it we were there the first time we know what we did to those poor people Okay, so, of course, Terry refuses.

[657] He's a decent person.

[658] On Christmas Eve, Wanda's like, what better time than to ask him again?

[659] So this time, she's like, cannot talk to you on the patio or whatever the fuck she said to him.

[660] Do trailers have patios?

[661] Yeah.

[662] Well, he built one because he cares about.

[663] Gardening.

[664] We already talked about this.

[665] We went over this.

[666] Like patio is gardening.

[667] He cares about.

[668] Cement Okay, so this time she asked, she's like, no, no, you said no before, but listen.

[669] This time she says, can you find me a hitman?

[670] Oh.

[671] And Terry hangs up, oh, they were on the phone this time, sorry.

[672] They're not on the patio.

[673] They're on an emotional patio over the phone.

[674] Where you can get a timeshare.

[675] I'm going to let that one die.

[676] I won't mention a timeshare again.

[677] Watch.

[678] You know what?

[679] Save it for the very end.

[680] That's right.

[681] Okay.

[682] It would be a great callback.

[683] Terry basically hangs up on her.

[684] Doesn't really, doesn't commit to anything, doesn't give her an answer, is just kind of like, I'm sure got the shivers real bad and then hung up.

[685] She's like, oh, she asked me again.

[686] She's crazy.

[687] And so he immediately calls his brother, who's wanted his ex -husband, Tony, and he tells Tony all about the conversation.

[688] He's like, A, good thing you divorced her.

[689] B. What should I do?

[690] Wouldn't that be funny?

[691] He's like, like should I go out with her but it's like I don't know should I find her a hitman like she's really nice I love how she barely has eyebrows I bet though Tony on the other end of like Terry tells him the thing and he's like I fucking told you I told you she was like this so basically Tony says hang this phone up and call the police right now and that's exactly what Terry does so he goes to the police he tells them every single thing and they make the plan that they're going to wire him and he basically is going to pretend over the next three weeks that he's going to get Wanda a hitman to kill a mother and a daughter.

[692] Jesus.

[693] And he basically comes up with this.

[694] He's like, it'll cost you $2 ,500 for Verna and then $5 ,000 for Amber.

[695] It's a sliding scale.

[696] You're worth more.

[697] We all know this.

[698] You're worth more when you're young.

[699] Wanda decides $7 ,500 is too expensive to kill two human beings.

[700] She does not haggle.

[701] Please tell me she doesn't haggle.

[702] She haggles the fuck out of it.

[703] What she says is, what she haggles is, I'll just take Verna.

[704] Oh.

[705] And then if Verna is murdered, Amber will be so upset she won't be able to try out to be a cheerleader.

[706] It's a good plan.

[707] Is it?

[708] Well, logically, what would be worse than a sad cheerleader?

[709] Yeah, but no, because here's why.

[710] Yay.

[711] You guys, come on.

[712] I love it.

[713] You like a crying cheerleader?

[714] I love it.

[715] Okay, we'll bring that one back.

[716] It's better than a rage cheerleader, even if you can believe it.

[717] Well, the rage cheerleaders were really easy to picture.

[718] It was like a bit mad max.

[719] Crying cheerleaders is like, I need to know this story.

[720] What's happening?

[721] Okay, so, meanwhile, the police are listening to all of it.

[722] They're listening to her haggle over the value of a life.

[723] They know Wanda's guilty.

[724] It's all kind of right there for them.

[725] And so on August 28, 1991, with the fake murder plot all settled and the deal done, Wanda meets up with Terry and gives him her diamond earrings as a down payment.

[726] And she says to him, which is recorded, I couldn't pull the trigger myself.

[727] in the accent please oh it's really thank you but it's really hard to do an accent in a room full of people who live in the place where you're trying to do the accent that you're not from and you've only listened to half an hour of Donahue okay I'm just saying that thank you for cheering it's nice of you to cheer though we love cheer so here's her taking out of her right I couldn't pull the trigger myself but I sure can do it this way oh shit yeah she doesn't give a thought she doesn't care What a bitch So the next day the police Show up at Wanda's front door Knock knock knock knock And they arrest her And here is her mug shop Oh fun Boom I got Defiant Yeah Strong I got double crossed I'm They double crossed me That's good That's the It's the cowboy dude I'll go I'll go double cross I'm just doing Holly Hunter I think Oh yeah They got damn Double Cross me Is that right They can arrest my body, but they can't arrest my cheerleader soul.

[728] She's released on bail one day later.

[729] No. That's how it works.

[730] As you'd expect, she pleads not guilty to the crime of solicitation of capital murder, and her trial begins on August 23, 1991.

[731] Here's her.

[732] Look at...

[733] She's never been more alive.

[734] Wow.

[735] Going to court.

[736] Look at that cascade of hair rolling down the back of her.

[737] mullet, neck.

[738] That is some crunchy hair.

[739] Like, I dare you to try to put a finger to her through that.

[740] Impenetrable.

[741] When she scratched her head, she's like, I don't know.

[742] Let me think about it.

[743] Oh, my God.

[744] She was at Dillard's all day trying to find that blazer.

[745] They love Dillard's.

[746] I mean, just the amount of crunchy hair in this photo.

[747] There's that one, too.

[748] Oh, shit.

[749] We've just got, we've got disembodied crunchy hair on the on the right hand side.

[750] That's someone's mom.

[751] Someone in the audience, that's their mom.

[752] Or that's, that could be someone's dog.

[753] Doesn't that look like a tail?

[754] Yeah, it's a tail.

[755] Emotional support.

[756] It looks like a Wheaton Terrier.

[757] It looks like someone brought a Wheaton Terrier emotional support dog into the jail, into the courtroom.

[758] That should be a thing.

[759] Amazing.

[760] Okay.

[761] So the prosecution plays the recordings from Wanda and Terry's Wired Conversations.

[762] And Wanda's defense team argues that Terry and Tony have conspired against her.

[763] I mean, the prosecutors were just press play, and that's their argument.

[764] They won't have to say a word.

[765] Right.

[766] Maybe they get a discount on that.

[767] But basically, it's like the whole thing's a frame job.

[768] Like, she's been lured into it out of revenge for Tony and Wanda's contentious divorce 10 years prior.

[769] Okay.

[770] Here's Terry in court.

[771] Oh, he's like, I just want a garden.

[772] As the first thing he said to the judge They're like, sir, please keep to the case We don't care about what you do in your private But I'm a good person He sounds like Holly Hunter too It breaks my heart I love him so much Okay So like every other campaign that Wanda tries to mount This one also shits the bed On September 4th, 1991 Wanda Holloway is found guilty and sentenced to 15 years in prison plus a $10 ,000 fine.

[773] Hold.

[774] Because it's soon revealed, however, that one of the jurors is on probation for a drug -related felony and should have never been allowed on a jury.

[775] Hi, friend.

[776] Are you fucking bored or something?

[777] He's drug -related.

[778] Oh, he's on drugs.

[779] Yeah.

[780] Got it.

[781] He fucking took so much acid and went to jury selection.

[782] Only someone on drugs would be like, yeah, I talk.

[783] Totally wanted to jury duty.

[784] Could you pick me?

[785] I'd love it.

[786] My pupils will be smaller the day of the case, I swear.

[787] Okay, so they declare a mistrial.

[788] The sentencing is dropped.

[789] A second trial is planned for 1996.

[790] This time, Wanda pleads no contest to the charges.

[791] On September 9th, 1996, she's found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison and a $10 ,000 fine.

[792] She also settles a civil suit with the Heath family, and she has to pay them $150 ,000.

[793] Good.

[794] I'll buy a lot of cheerleading outfits.

[795] Yeah, that's right.

[796] I think.

[797] I don't actually know how much they cost.

[798] Amber and her mom, Verna, in court.

[799] Oh, man. Wait a second.

[800] I recognize that hair.

[801] Yeah.

[802] Would they be that close walking down the hall?

[803] No, I can't imagine they'd walk them together.

[804] Also, I'm sorry, but does anyone here remember these fucking shit clothes in the 90s where everything was like, we're from Germany and the future.

[805] Put on this tunic.

[806] Everything is like royal blue and black.

[807] Pretend you're in a band.

[808] It goes out to hear.

[809] You're in a talking heads video, essentially.

[810] Look at that, look at the puffiness of that pad of her shoulder.

[811] Yeah, that's right.

[812] Wow.

[813] Honey.

[814] She has two pom -poms stuffed in each shoulder.

[815] Okay, so on March 1st, 1997, after serving just six months of her sentence, Wanda Holloway is released from jail.

[816] She's ordered to serve the rest of her.

[817] nine and a half your sentence on probation plus 1 ,000 hours of community service.

[818] And as I said last night, I thought the other case that I was talking about, sounds about white to me. Okay.

[819] Yeah.

[820] Walk out if you want to.

[821] I don't care.

[822] So, in 1993, our best friend Holly Hunter stars in the HBO movie, the positively true adventures of the alleged Texas cheerleader murdering mom.

[823] Oh, my God.

[824] Have you seen this?

[825] No. It's insanity.

[826] You have to watch it.

[827] Bo Bridges.

[828] Bo Bridges is in it.

[829] Holy Shoot.

[830] And Holly Hunter, all the greats.

[831] Oh, my God.

[832] Yeah.

[833] Look at that cheerleading outfit.

[834] It's not real.

[835] Horish.

[836] If they had just let that bitch cheerlead when she was a kid, everything would have been fine.

[837] It's true.

[838] Wow.

[839] It's an outrageous true story of jealousy and obsession.

[840] There's also in 1994 of...

[841] author Anne Meyer wrote a book about this case called Mother Love, Deadly Love.

[842] Okay.

[843] Now, I went through the hometown emails to see if anyone had written in about this case, and of course, someone did.

[844] So the top half of the email is basically explaining exactly how I just did.

[845] So like copy, paste.

[846] How this just went.

[847] And then the second half of the email says, Not much was happening in Pasadena, and this was big, big news at the time.

[848] So when my dad saw this crazy lady's face plastered on every newspaper, he realized that he had coached Wanda's daughter in gymnastics less than five years earlier at the local YMCA.

[849] He very vividly remembered Wanda constantly yelling at her daughter during practice to do this and that, to the point where my then young and hot -headed father told her to, quote, shut up or get out of my gym.

[850] he had no idea he was yelling at a sociopath otherwise I imagine he would have kept his mouth shut for once then again maybe if he had been a better coach Wanda's daughter would have made the cheerleading spot and this whole issue would have been avoided anyways stay sexy and don't yell at sociopaths Jordan Jordan yeah and that is the insane yet highly competitive story of the Texas cheerleader mom Murder plots.

[851] Jordan's like, where's the bus?

[852] Because I'm going to toss my dad right under that, motherfucker.

[853] Wow, that was fun.

[854] Get ready to not have fun.

[855] We like all kinds.

[856] Great job.

[857] Great job.

[858] Thank you.

[859] Thank you.

[860] All right.

[861] Okay.

[862] This is the hit and run case of Vicky Lyons.

[863] Now I want to go, okay, let's just get into it.

[864] 1980.

[865] Crystal Lyons and her husband live in the same.

[866] small town of Big Spring, Texas.

[867] Big Spring.

[868] It's a small town, and there's a big spring.

[869] Yeah.

[870] They built a small town around a big spring.

[871] Which sounds picturesque.

[872] Yeah.

[873] Nope, no time shares.

[874] There's no time shares there.

[875] You want to go back to the time share, well.

[876] Don't do it.

[877] I know.

[878] It's my favorite well.

[879] It's good.

[880] So they live there with their four -year -old daughter, Vicki.

[881] She's a quiet and sweet child.

[882] I have a photo of her.

[883] She survives.

[884] So let's not, I'm going to, this gets horrible, but she lives.

[885] That's a good spoiler.

[886] That's the best kind of spoiler you could give us.

[887] So it's, and then it's really the story is about two, uh, two badass women who like fucking take a bad situation and are like, nope, and fucking take care of business.

[888] Hell yes.

[889] So it's a good, it ends up, yes, we love those stories.

[890] Okay.

[891] But it gets shitty first.

[892] So Crystal, the mother, works in the circulation department at the big spring herald newspaper, like the town's newspaper, it covers every story in town.

[893] It's probably the only newspaper.

[894] I'm making that up.

[895] I would.

[896] I think you're saved money, yeah.

[897] One day, Crystal's babysitter doesn't show up to take care of Vicky.

[898] She calls her supervisor.

[899] She's a fucking working mom.

[900] She's like, I don't know what to do.

[901] And the supervisor is a lovely person and says, come in or you're fucking fired.

[902] Oh.

[903] So Crystal's like, great.

[904] I'm bringing my fucking four -year -old in then.

[905] Kind of like, sounds amazing.

[906] So she brings Vicky in, and she's brought her in before.

[907] Of course, everyone at the office loves her.

[908] She's a darling kid.

[909] And Crystal tries to keep an eye on Vicky as she works as best she can.

[910] So Crystal is moving papers to the loading dock for an afternoon delivery.

[911] When she hears her amazing, wonderful supervisor that we just talked about, tell Vicky to go outside and play in the parking lot.

[912] Go play in the parking lot.

[913] No. Moments later, Crystal's in the middle of telling him that she doesn't feel comfortable having her daughter at work and that she's just going to head home.

[914] When her supervisor, they look out the window and they see Vicky lying on the ground outside.

[915] And Crystal can tell from a distance that immediately her daughter is injured.

[916] When she reaches Vicky, Vicki's unconscious and she's not breathing.

[917] She survives again.

[918] I'd like to go ahead.

[919] No one is around and there aren't any clues as to what had happened.

[920] So Vicky's rushed to the hospital in Odessa, which is like an hour away.

[921] On the way, the ambulance breaks down.

[922] No. Like just to fucking, just to mess with you.

[923] They almost crash into the back of it.

[924] They get her to the hospital.

[925] She's in, and Vicki's rushed to intensive care.

[926] And when they finally see their child, Crystal and her husband noticed that there's marks on Vicki's face.

[927] And they're like, what that looks like tire marks on her face.

[928] And the hospital staff is like, that's what it is.

[929] Oh, my God.

[930] So fucking Crystal, amazing Crystal, is like, I'm going to take photos of this.

[931] And has the, in 1980, I don't know, what kind of, where do you have your camera?

[932] At home in a closet?

[933] Right.

[934] And it's huge.

[935] It's like the whole closet.

[936] Yes.

[937] She takes it out of the clock.

[938] I don't know.

[939] And she takes photos, like has the wherewithal to take photos of the marks on Vicki's face.

[940] So Vicky falls into a coma and her parents, the only thing they can do is wait.

[941] Meanwhile, police question everyone who works at the newspaper.

[942] No one had seen an accident.

[943] happen, but they're like, we did see this man leaving the parking lot in a hurry just before Vicki was found.

[944] So police issue an APB for J .B. Hardman.

[945] He's a minister who makes his living selling fish from the back of his truck as well.

[946] Sorry, I have about four questions now.

[947] Remember, they're near a big spring, so it's probably good fish.

[948] No?

[949] You're not going to have that one?

[950] Where do you want to buy fish, if not the back of a truck?

[951] From a pastor?

[952] Does that what you said?

[953] A minister.

[954] A fish.

[955] Uh -huh.

[956] I mean, it kind of makes sense.

[957] Didn't Jesus do that?

[958] He sure did.

[959] He did.

[960] You know.

[961] Yep.

[962] I'm Jewish.

[963] I don't know that part.

[964] So that guy, that minister just has the one fish, or he's like, who wants it?

[965] He's got a big party tonight.

[966] This thing beats a shit ton of people.

[967] Whoops.

[968] I'm a minister.

[969] I'm not supposed to say that.

[970] So police find this guy.

[971] And in the town of Snyder, they're like, you ran over a kid?

[972] And he's like, what, Snyder?

[973] What the, he doesn't know what they're, he says, what are you talking about?

[974] Yes.

[975] He doesn't curse.

[976] He's a good person.

[977] He doesn't know what they're talking about.

[978] He's like, I did not run over a kid.

[979] I would have known.

[980] But they take him into the jail and they, they, he's in the jail, SkyJB.

[981] And this is a really great forensic files episode, by the way, that I forgot to write down the name of, but it's like one of the ones that you're like, who thought of that title.

[982] It's like every, uh, true.

[983] Don't tread lightly.

[984] Oh, God.

[985] That's not.

[986] Because of entire trends, everyone, do you get it?

[987] I think they do.

[988] That's what that's, it's just, it's like subtle.

[989] Because I was going to do the official report, the fish all in caps.

[990] That's great.

[991] I only had like two seconds to think of it.

[992] That was amazing.

[993] Thank you.

[994] I'm impressed.

[995] So, okay, so he, this guy, this amazing dude is interviewed in forensic files.

[996] He didn't do it.

[997] by the way.

[998] He's not the guy.

[999] Oh.

[1000] I just keep thinking of other fish ones.

[1001] We're like, go ahead.

[1002] Look into this case just for the halibut.

[1003] Sorry.

[1004] You guys, we turned her.

[1005] We turned her.

[1006] You turned me into someone's dad at Christmas.

[1007] Jesus.

[1008] The only kind of comedy that we want.

[1009] Pun comedy only from now on.

[1010] That's right.

[1011] They arrest him and he's like, he talks in the case, he's like, I was sitting in the cell, and I'm like, what is happening?

[1012] And then he hears the police in the other, it's probably a small jail cell, I don't know, in the other room saying that they combed over every inch of his fish truck, and they only found one speck of blood.

[1013] And he was like, oh, shit, like, that's, they're going to fucking put me away forever, but he didn't do it.

[1014] So almost three weeks after Vicky had gone into a coma, she regains consciousness.

[1015] she had suffered damage to her skull in one eye and she can't walk or even speak when she wakes up.

[1016] Doctors tell her mom, Crystal, to just put her in a daughter in a wheelchair and get on with life.

[1017] And Crystal's like, fuck that shit.

[1018] No. A. Two things.

[1019] Fuck you.

[1020] Two.

[1021] Fuck that shit.

[1022] Right.

[1023] Crystal's determined to help her daughter live as normal life as possible.

[1024] And as time goes by, Vicky's condition starts to improve.

[1025] So one day, Crystal takes Vicky to the newspaper office again to see everyone who's all concerned about her, all her friends in the office.

[1026] And when one of the employees leans in the car to say, hello, Vicky has a fucking reaction and starts, like, screaming.

[1027] And it's the first time she's spoken or said anything since her coma.

[1028] When she sees this dude, she's like freaking out.

[1029] And Crystal's like, this isn't, something's not right, but she can't, her daughter can't explain why she's upset.

[1030] so she's not able to explain, but Crystal decides to conduct her own investigation.

[1031] Yeah, she does.

[1032] She doesn't think that the guy they have in custody did it.

[1033] She just doesn't think it's him.

[1034] I think she knew him from the paper.

[1035] He, like, had come by or something.

[1036] She's like, listen, I know the fish priest, and he is not.

[1037] He's got that great truck, and he's just not that way.

[1038] So she's, I think she had watched detective shows and she thinks about what a detective would do and she starts making a list of all the vehicles that she remembers seeing in the newspaper parking lot that day.

[1039] Then, okay, so at the time the newspaper parking lot is unpaved and bumpy, so it's possible a driver could have driven over Vicky and not known they had hit her.

[1040] I know, but by, let's see, they didn't have an eyewitness, and Crystal was like, I'm not giving up.

[1041] decide she needs to compare the tire marks from the photo she took of Vicky in the hospital that day to the tires that she remembers in the parking lot that day.

[1042] So she fucking, I know, it's crazy.

[1043] She takes black shoe polish and rubs it on each tire and makes an impression with a piece of paper on it.

[1044] And then her co -workers are like, her co -workers are looking out the window and then the one guy is just sweating a ton.

[1045] Like, wow, what's Vicky doing?

[1046] I don't know.

[1047] I don't I don't know.

[1048] Oh, I got to go.

[1049] I think we have a, yeah.

[1050] So this is Crystal.

[1051] Amazing.

[1052] So, okay.

[1053] Da -da -da -da.

[1054] We're, okay.

[1055] The tire polish, paper.

[1056] She keeps a careful record of the tire impression she takes.

[1057] And she, from two vans and a pickup truck.

[1058] And she, like, notes which tire they can't, like, which the front rear.

[1059] Nope.

[1060] That's another thing.

[1061] The front right.

[1062] Front pass.

[1063] It's just one huge tire.

[1064] wait a second, that's a snowplow.

[1065] Hold on.

[1066] That's a unicycle.

[1067] Front rear.

[1068] I know nothing about cars, obviously.

[1069] Okay, she shows the detective, her work.

[1070] She's like, what's up?

[1071] I did your job for you.

[1072] And I think you arrested the wrong man. And, of course, you know how they loved being told they're wrong about many things.

[1073] They were like, get out of here, basically, to her.

[1074] She says that they harassed a sweet old man who never did anything wrong to anybody.

[1075] Except fish.

[1076] A grand jury questions him on his involvement, and he denies any.

[1077] And the one spot of blood on his truck turns out to be fish blood.

[1078] From that one fish that shaved in the truck that time, obviously.

[1079] I think they tasted it.

[1080] I'm like, oh, it tastes like fish blood.

[1081] Anyone want to get sushi?

[1082] They don't have enough to, indict him, so he's released.

[1083] And Crystal's like, I still think that they don't have the right person.

[1084] The detectives tell her it's a civil matter, not a criminal one, so goodbye.

[1085] No. So for the next three years, Vicky is nursed back to health by her parents.

[1086] No one in the small town of Big Springs is willing to help her investigate the accident any further.

[1087] Then she reads about a man known as the Sherlock Holmes of Tire Marks.

[1088] That's a thing.

[1089] aka Mr. Hot.

[1090] His name is Peter McDonald and he literally wrote the book on Tire Impression Evidence.

[1091] That's his fucking thing.

[1092] He's the former chief designer after the Firestone Tire Company and he also assisted numerous police agencies and taught this stuff at the FBI Academy.

[1093] And it's the Great Crystal's been looking for it.

[1094] She fucking calls him up and she's like, can you help me?

[1095] And he is like, hell yeah.

[1096] Love it.

[1097] Did you say Tire?

[1098] I'm there.

[1099] She calls him.

[1100] He's in Ohio.

[1101] She explains a case to him and he's totally into it.

[1102] He's familiar with the tire impressions in human flesh because he's worked on cases like that before in the police, with the police.

[1103] And he is immediately like fucking amazed by the work she's already done.

[1104] He said that she came more prepared than a lot of police departments come when they ask him for help, which is amazing.

[1105] she had to be yeah um so she had labeled each tire impression with the date all that stuff he immediately eliminates two of the cars uh that's it's not the tire impressions and the last three imprints though he is interested in he identifies them as a rare tire which if you don't know about tires they're all rare right uh it's no longer manufactured it's the gold sonic 78s for you tire heads out there yeah there's got to be one right Oh, man, the 78 was insane.

[1106] It was like ridges.

[1107] There's ridges, but also cracks.

[1108] That's right.

[1109] Yeah, amazing tire.

[1110] So he has to, like, find out the exact match, the exact manufacturer, the brand, the size.

[1111] And Crystal's photos don't have size reference because they're just on her head, so it's not like he can measure them because she was a four -year -old, and four -year -old grow.

[1112] So he is able to, like, figure out when the human skull grows between four and seven, it doesn't really, so she's seven years old now, so he's able to, like, take the measurement.

[1113] It's a lot of math and science.

[1114] These are the tire treads, actual treads.

[1115] Wow.

[1116] I don't know.

[1117] This is the not one.

[1118] That's the one.

[1119] You know, it's really extensive and complicated.

[1120] Is this, was that just a still from forensic files?

[1121] You don't ever do that?

[1122] Oh, I do that all the time.

[1123] Yeah, I know, but usually, if you're watching the whole episode, then you know what it means.

[1124] I didn't, I listened to it.

[1125] Do you know what that you can just, there's a podcast that's just forensic files now?

[1126] Oh, really?

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] It's just forensic files.

[1129] I'm playing over today.

[1130] I was just like, this is forensic files in my ears.

[1131] That's great.

[1132] Yeah.

[1133] So Jay did that.

[1134] Nice.

[1135] Thanks Jay.

[1136] Okay.

[1137] So he, not Stephen, he doesn't have to do that anymore.

[1138] Thank God for him.

[1139] Okay.

[1140] So he finds all these little things and there's like these skin marks that like don't, that do things when tires tread a certain way and cut things, he's able to eliminate the two of the Sonic 78 imprints since they had very little wear, but the last imprint shows the same degree of wear and matches the size of that, what was on Vicki's face.

[1141] And so in the forensic files, they call him Bob Jones, the dude who did it, because I think it's civil and not criminal, so they can't name him.

[1142] But it's the dude who fucking poked his head in, and she started screaming.

[1143] It was totally him.

[1144] So in 1985, five years after Vicki's hit and run, Crystal Lyons filed suit against the Big Spring Herald, the newspaper, claiming that this dude Bob Jones hadn't taken the proper precautions while backing his truck out of the parking lot.

[1145] The accident would mean a lifetime of neurological difficulties for Vicki and Crystal wanted justice.

[1146] So Vicky needed dozens of surgical procedures because the accident damaged so much.

[1147] and she does get better and she's able to attend school.

[1148] Crystal Lyne says she didn't sue the Big Spring Herald just for financial motives.

[1149] She wants them to take responsibility for the accident that left her daughter permanently disabled.

[1150] Vicky said she tries not to think about the accident, but she does remember it.

[1151] She remembers her mom's supervisor saying, go play in the parking lot.

[1152] It's not great to tell a kid.

[1153] No. And she went out there, she had some toy dishes.

[1154] She was behind a truck and playing in the sand, and he backed up and didn't know she was there.

[1155] Of course not.

[1156] But the reason Vicky starts screaming when she sees his face when she goes that day is because she saw him look in the rear rear mirror, see her, and drive off.

[1157] Wow.

[1158] So he fucking just, otherwise she wouldn't have known it was him.

[1159] You know what I mean?

[1160] Even before the lost dude, Jones, this dude, had suspected that he was the one who ran over Vicky.

[1161] You fucking think?

[1162] he commented to Crystal that he didn't think he did it but if he did he was sorry that it happened our favorite so the Harold wants to settle the case and offers to pay $750 ,000 for Vicki's care Crystal accepts it but demands 15 minutes in the judge's chambers with just her and Vicky with the representative of the Harold alone she wants to fucking be alone with him when Crystal she's there with him him and Vicki tells him that he destroyed her life, and they tell him to fuck off, I'm assuming, I wasn't there.

[1163] And that's the end of the lawsuit.

[1164] And the herald doesn't report the news of their own settlement in their fucking newspaper.

[1165] Yeah.

[1166] Which is amazing.

[1167] Today, the newspaper has new owners and completely new staff, so don't go to their offices and pick it or whatever.

[1168] Crystal's able to arrange for the best medical care for Vicky.

[1169] Vicky learns to speak and walk again, and She tries to put the accident in the past, and she finishes high school and moves to Charlotte, North Carolina, where she attends the Art Institute studying mass media.

[1170] Wow.

[1171] Mass media.

[1172] I'm sorry to say she died.

[1173] She does die from unrelated issues in 2011 at 34 years old.

[1174] But here's the thing.

[1175] She had become a professional wrestler with the title.

[1176] What?

[1177] The Lioness.

[1178] Are you kidding me?

[1179] How fucking badass is she?

[1180] That's amazing.

[1181] She works for the high sports wrestling school in Charlotte, which Vince totally knows about, of course.

[1182] She becomes the lioness.

[1183] There's videos of her wrestling online that you can watch on YouTube, and she's just this fucking badass.

[1184] Her friends say that she lived for wrestling.

[1185] It was at every practice.

[1186] I think she taught as well.

[1187] She also enjoyed belly dancing, was an animal lover.

[1188] She owned dogs and cats, which is like, that's, how do you even do that?

[1189] And Crystal Lions went on to become a forensic scientist.

[1190] Whoa, are you serious?

[1191] Holy shit.

[1192] And that is the insane, awesome story of Crystal and Vicky Lions.

[1193] Wow.

[1194] Amazing, right?

[1195] That's incredible.

[1196] That's impressive.

[1197] Tenacity.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] Shit.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] That's awesome.

[1202] We don't have time for a hometown except.

[1203] we have a little surprise for you.

[1204] So, you know, as we said at the beginning of the show, first of all, that we've been coming here to you guys in Dallas and Houston and touring, you guys have been a stop on the tour since we very first started touring.

[1205] Because of all our listenership, the highest concentration of MFM listeners is in Texas.

[1206] Yeah.

[1207] It's incredible.

[1208] So we've come here so many times and we have done so much studying of your insane murders.

[1209] There's just always so many to choose from.

[1210] And as we said, we constantly use the Texas Monthly as a resource.

[1211] And one of the writers of Texas Monthly that we have used many a time that we are huge fans of and I'm sure you are huge fans up too.

[1212] We'd like to bring them out right now.

[1213] It's Mr. Skip Hollinsworthies right here.

[1214] come here come over here you guys he's not mad at us look he's not mad we stole all of his articles and re -read them or are you this is your chance this is your chance to tell us no it's the greatest in the world where are you from original I'm from Wichita Falls and my daughter loves to describe your show as hot feminist talk among women who have a penchant for murder.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] That sounds right.

[1217] And you're always going to come back because we have this ability down here to step over the line from normality to inexplicable rage.

[1218] Now we have a little bit of an anecdote for you just when we were in, do you remember what city we were in?

[1219] I don't know what story you're telling.

[1220] Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were sharing a mind.

[1221] My mistake.

[1222] No, no, it was the other, it was like two weeks ago.

[1223] After the show, we have this now almost forced ritual where we go home.

[1224] We order food.

[1225] We go into our separate hotel rooms.

[1226] We sit down and then we both put on forensic files at the same time.

[1227] And so we watched forensic files.

[1228] And this was probably two weeks ago, we both text each other at the same time because you came up as a talking head in one of the cases.

[1229] And we both immediately were sending pictures of you to each other.

[1230] It was like, look who it is.

[1231] Look who it is.

[1232] Screen grab of your face.

[1233] It was crazy.

[1234] I just can't explain how honored I am by that I did.

[1235] Do you want to tell us your hometown or your favorite story?

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] Anything.

[1238] You mean my favorite murder story?

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] Well, there's so many.

[1241] I mean, I love the man in Dallas.

[1242] who I became friends with, Charlie.

[1243] By eyeball killer.

[1244] He was a good friend.

[1245] He was close.

[1246] There's Diane.

[1247] I mean, there's great women murders in Texas.

[1248] There's Diane Zamora, who was the naval who went to the Navy Academy and persuaded her boyfriend who went to the Air Force Academy to kill his ex -girlfriend.

[1249] So she wouldn't bother him.

[1250] She was really sweet.

[1251] There's Marie Robarge from Fort Worth who stole barium out of her chemistry lab in high school to kill her father.

[1252] Yeah, I did that one.

[1253] So she could go back to live with her mother.

[1254] She was real sweet.

[1255] Well, we couldn't be more excited to meet you in real life, honestly.

[1256] And if there weren't true crime journalists, especially the ones to the level that Texas Monthly seems to hire people at, our show would be so Wikipedia shitty all the time.

[1257] So we owe you literally so much money no who could have guessed well I will take some money okay all right skip Paulinsworth everybody thank you my God oh my god hero he's a hero it's amazing we are so grateful that we get to do this that this is our job now it's so incredible And it is only and entirely because of your support and your dedication and the fact that you guys listen to us and we cannot ever thank you enough.

[1258] We'll never be able to.

[1259] Especially because half our listeners are in Texas.

[1260] Are here.

[1261] Double time.

[1262] Thank you.

[1263] You're the muscle.

[1264] You guys are the muscle.

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] The muscle that makes this weird true crime body run.

[1267] So thank you so much.

[1268] Um, you know, of course, stay saved and do God's missions.

[1269] That's important, please.

[1270] But more than that, stay sexy.

[1271] And don't!