Patrice Evra: Learning How To Cry Saved My Life

[0] Me playing was, it was just a dream.

[1] Growing up, he's a family, 24 brothers and sister.

[2] One breast chicken was for three days.

[3] Growing up in the street, you need to survive.

[4] Now when I have those images in my head, I could hear him trying to touch me and touching himself in the same time next to the bed, you know.

[5] I was even attaching my pyjama with my shoelaces because to make sure he can't put it down.

[6] And one day he did, and I was just like terrorized.

[7] So that's the things I grew up with like, you know, I can't cry.

[8] For me, crying was a sign of weakness.

[9] When I do a video and I see a comment, someone say, oh, Patrice, my dad passed away.

[10] I watch one of your video and I smile.

[11] Thank you.

[12] This is more important for me than win the championship or the Premier League.

[13] I'm not perfect.

[14] And I don't want to be perfect.

[15] I want to be me. Patrice Everett.

[16] I've just sat here with him for an hour and a half, and at the very end of the conversation, he said something which I think is the perfect description of the man. He referred to himself as an iceberg.

[17] I followed him for almost two decades, and he was, to me, this football icon, this tough guy, this defender, this champion.

[18] But as he says in this conversation, the part of the iceberg that I never got to see was the most compelling.

[19] was the most heartbreaking and was the most interesting.

[20] He grew up in a rough part of France with 24 brothers and sisters.

[21] He was sexually abused by his head teacher.

[22] His brother, a drug addict, overdosed and died.

[23] His mother raised him in total poverty to the point where he stole his food, his shoes, and his entertainment.

[24] He endured an early upbringing that you would never wish on any child, an enemy, or anyone at all, in any circumstances, ever.

[25] And he hid it all.

[26] He hid it all for his entire life.

[27] And only recently, has he found it within himself, after very personal conversations with his mother, to share it with the world.

[28] And only today, on this podcast has he decided to share some of those heartbreaking details after watching him on TV for almost two decades I thought I knew Patrice Evera this comedian football champion funny guy, happy guy I was wrong all I knew was the tip of the iceberg so without further ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[29] I've sat here with a lot of guests, and sometimes I feel obliged to start with their childhoods because it seems like the foundation of most people, specifically successful people, tends to be the case that the things they go through at an early age, especially with my sort of little background in childhood psychology, tend to shape them the most.

[30] But when I read your story in your book, that's just come out, having watched you on screen as a Manchester United fan for many, many a decade and seen subsequently the guy you were on Instagram, the hilarious, entertaining person, I never, ever would have guessed ever that that was your upbringing, that was your childhood.

[31] I would have guessed by the person that I came to know on screen, by the person that I watched on Instagram, I would have guessed the opposite.

[32] Take me back.

[33] So before you were 10 years old, because I know that 10 years old was a really pivotal moment in your life because your father left.

[34] Yeah.

[35] What was life like before 10?

[36] He was an happy, happy child.

[37] A lot of people inside a house.

[38] Sometimes you have to make sure like you're ready when mom say the food is ready.

[39] He was like sleeping with two of my siblings in the same bed, a single bed and, you know, two was sleeping that way and one on that way.

[40] Sometimes it was like some smelly fit, but we need space.

[41] And he was all about, like, sharing, but I will tell you something.

[42] I was happy.

[43] You know, even if I was like begging in front of shop, you know, to buy a sandwich, I couldn't say in that time I wasn't happy.

[44] I was like the most happy child.

[45] But it was like tough and maybe sometimes I was just unconscious.

[46] But of course, I think when my dad left, that's when I was like, okay, I'm not scared of anyone in this house.

[47] So now I have to grow up on my own.

[48] And that's when I was like, I would say more close to the street because when my dad was here, you know, just when I was saying like that, I want to go and play outside with my friend.

[49] He was like, did you, have you done your homework?

[50] Even I swear, even if I did my own work, I was scared to say yes.

[51] So when you say yes to him, he was like, okay, bring me your book.

[52] And I remember he was like, okay, which lesson you have to learn tomorrow?

[53] And I was like doing the lesson perfectly.

[54] And he was going to the first page of the book and saying like, okay, tell me about this.

[55] And I couldn't remember.

[56] I was like, yeah, but dad, we did this at the beginning, you know, this is like, okay, when you learn your full book, then you will be able to go outside.

[57] So my dad, when he was at home, we didn't miss anything.

[58] You know, we have food on the table.

[59] Everything was perfect.

[60] I had like a big screen TV.

[61] I remember we were one of the first family in where I grew up in my street to have that big screen and all my friends, they come.

[62] So I couldn't, I will never complain when my dad was here.

[63] He did his job perfectly.

[64] But the only things, you know, my dad teach me crying is a weakness.

[65] So when he was like punishing someone and you cry, that's when you're going to beat you even more.

[66] So that's the things I grew up with like, you know, I can't cry.

[67] And that's where we can talk about that toxic masculinity.

[68] They understand crying is normal.

[69] But for me, crying was a sign of weakness.

[70] Why did he leave?

[71] He lived because my mom divorced him.

[72] And sometime he was violent with her.

[73] And I remember, you know, being kids and no one asked me these questions.

[74] That's why I'm a little bit emotional.

[75] And, you know, my mom was like, no one man can raise his hand on me. So she divorced.

[76] he had to leave, you know, she went to the police and he had to go and it was a tough moment because, you know, when you see your dad leaving, no matter if you know the reason he shouldn't have done that, leave, the same taking all the sofa, the big TV, the big screen, he was with a big trunk waiting for him and we were all of my brother and sister crying because, you know, he's your dad.

[77] But at the same time, what he was doing to my mom, he wasn't right.

[78] Did you witness that?

[79] Yeah, I think like, you know, sometimes we try to open the door and if you open that door, you know, it was really scary, you know.

[80] And if you, when you heard your mom like fighting back, because to be fair, my mom, she's a strong woman, you know, and my dad, he say that now, we say like, don't play with your mom because she's a strong woman.

[81] So in that time, yeah, when you experience that, that you, you just terrorize.

[82] You're like, what's, what's going on?

[83] You know, it's your parents.

[84] They should, like, kiss each other.

[85] So, yeah.

[86] And you look back on that moment.

[87] He left, obviously, an incredibly sad moment, but are you happy that he left, considering?

[88] The problem, you know, when you kid, you don't really understand.

[89] I was happy because my mom, at the end, you know, she was, uh, she was happy.

[90] But to see your dad left, leaving, no matter which reason, you can't be happy.

[91] Now I understand the reason.

[92] I forgive him.

[93] But saying I was happy, no. So he leaves.

[94] Your life takes a turn after that because you've lost that figure in your life and maybe a bit of, I don't know, restriction has left the family home.

[95] So you can act on other motivations and, you can act on other motivations.

[96] incentives and other ways to survive, I guess.

[97] And what's the, what person did you become after that?

[98] I would say a warrior, like.

[99] A warrior?

[100] Yeah.

[101] I think a survivor.

[102] Because after you, like I say, you know, it's you and the street and oh, I kill you or you kill me, you know, when you grow up in the street.

[103] That's why I hate when some people, they talk about their background and they'll say like, Oh, I was a gangster.

[104] No. I would never call myself a gangster.

[105] I was just a survivor.

[106] And it was difficult, you know.

[107] So, yeah, like you say, when he left, no more restriction, going out, fighting outside, lying to your mom.

[108] The police, you know, bring me one day home around 1 a .m. My mom was so worried.

[109] And I remember it was so funny because some words I didn't even know what they mean.

[110] And so when they bring me back home and my mom was, you know, just she put her like a hand on him off, what's going on?

[111] She was, you know, his son, you know, bring back from the police.

[112] And I was like, mom, mommy are just being an accomplice.

[113] And she beat me like so bad.

[114] But now I understand it's even worse, you know, because I was like, I didn't steal.

[115] I just was looking when my friend was stealing and stuff like that.

[116] So it was just a mess.

[117] and no one, even my school teacher, when they were talking to me at school, I was like, can you put the volume down?

[118] You're not my dad.

[119] So I didn't let anyone, you know, talking like saying, you can't do this, you can't do that.

[120] But I always respect my mom and my brother and my sister.

[121] And I was respectful with my friend, but when someone tried to give me some authority, he couldn't have it because I, I was like, the one I have like the most authority on me. It was my dad.

[122] He left.

[123] So now I don't need any authority from no one.

[124] And you get, you start, I read you started stealing things.

[125] You started selling weed.

[126] Yeah.

[127] I think stealing was, uh, was normal because I was like with my friend.

[128] I remember the first time I, I steal it was, uh, some gum.

[129] And, you know, I was on your up with my friend.

[130] They were stealing.

[131] I wasn't because I was still like having a good idea.

[132] education for my dad, for my mom.

[133] And to be part of the group, you need to, you know, it's like some people when they drink, because they find that excuse to be like social.

[134] So it was stealing.

[135] So I started stealing and everyone clapped me. So I was like, wow, finally I'm part of the gun.

[136] And from there, you go like to deal like video games, to sell weed, you know, to having the best like sneakers and, you know, even offering some stuff to your girlfriend.

[137] I offer even like a perfume to my mom, you know, and I was so pride because I was like at the end, you know, my dad left and a few of my brother and sister left after that.

[138] So I was like, I'm the man. I need to be in charge.

[139] I need to feed my family.

[140] It wasn't the right way every time.

[141] But at least I was like, you know, my mom, like when I offer him like a bottle of perfume and I see how happy she was, but she was like always where that comes from.

[142] And I was like lying.

[143] I know, it's just my friend, you know, he bought it for me. But that was me, he was myself stealing it.

[144] Some years after your father left, did you talk about in the book in the opening chapters of the book about your headmaster?

[145] Yeah.

[146] And you were 13 years old, you ended up staying at his house and he sexually assaulted you.

[147] Yeah.

[148] I think this is what.

[149] One of the most regret I had in my life to not speak up in that day.

[150] How did you come to be at his house?

[151] It's really simple.

[152] It's because Brittany, it was far from my house.

[153] I have to take two train to go to school because I went to that school because it was a school where, you know, you're good at football.

[154] After school, you have to train.

[155] So it wasn't an academy, but it was a school where you can train also.

[156] It was a good opportunity.

[157] To be fair, my mom was like, it's good.

[158] He's leaving the street because he will end up in jail or dead.

[159] So it's perfect for him.

[160] So I went there and I was taking like, you know, two train, four hours sometime and losing my, my school bag, sleeping on the train, you know, even sometimes end up like to another destination.

[161] So it was a mess.

[162] And that school teacher, Ed's teacher, he speaks to me. He said, do you want like to stay?

[163] because I'm living inside the school.

[164] He has his home inside the school.

[165] So I went back home and I said to my mom, you know, he offered that.

[166] And my mom was like, not sure about it at the beginning because even when I tell her, I would speak later about it, she said, I knew it.

[167] And she was like, are you sure?

[168] Can you trust this man?

[169] I was like, yay, he seemed nice, ma 'am.

[170] So that head teacher at the beginning, everything was perfect.

[171] It was cooking for.

[172] for me in the evening.

[173] He was letting me play as Nintendo.

[174] He had the Nintendo at the time.

[175] So I was like, yeah, that's cool.

[176] You know, I don't need to go back home on the weekend.

[177] And I just stay here.

[178] Then every night I was in my bed.

[179] And every time he was coming, you know, in my room.

[180] And the first time I was like maybe, you know, you just come to say good night.

[181] But he was, I was sleeping and I was feeling a hand on my bow.

[182] you know, it's like, oh, what's going on, you know?

[183] And he was trying to touch me, but I was like holding his hand.

[184] So it was like a fight for, for 10 minutes.

[185] And I was still, couldn't understand.

[186] I was 13, but, you know, I didn't have any sexual relation, even with any girls at that time.

[187] So for me, everything was new.

[188] I was like, what's going on, you know?

[189] We fight many times.

[190] And he didn't succeed.

[191] And he was, you know, now when I have those images in my head, I could hear him trying to touch me and touching himself in the same time next to the bed, you know.

[192] Then he was living.

[193] And every time I was like, oh, he's gone.

[194] So he's started to become a ritual.

[195] Every time I go to bed, he's coming.

[196] The same things.

[197] Fight.

[198] Everything.

[199] Fight, fight, fight.

[200] And one day, you know, I was even attaching my pyjama with my.

[201] leases like I remember shoe laces because to make sure like he can't put it down and we feel you know he was trying like on the top of my clothes but fighting said so one day he did he put my pants down and he put my penis in his mouth and I was just like terrorized I remember I was I just freeze you know I knock his head but I and I just freeze I couldn't I didn't understand understand what's going on.

[202] Then he left.

[203] Then I wake up.

[204] I can't even remember what's happened because, you know, those things, you just, like, erase them from your memory.

[205] So I back to school.

[206] I think in school I was thinking about what happened is like something not normal.

[207] Then I went to home, I say, Mom, I don't want to sleep anymore to that head teacher.

[208] She said, why?

[209] I said, no, I just don't want.

[210] I never tell her the reason until now.

[211] So after that, I live all my life with that.

[212] From the street, you know, you come back.

[213] You're like, imagine you tell that to one of your friends.

[214] You're going to say, you know, you're weak, all of those stuff.

[215] So even for me, when I had my first sexual relation, it was weird because I had this man in my head.

[216] You know, and this, I never told that to anyone.

[217] so I was like massively traumatized then actually because all of that I back to my school where I grew up in the street and I stopped even going to that school even like people were like but you're so good at football why I say I don't need it I will keep training on my own on the street you know I don't want to be in that school anymore so yeah I grew up with that things for so many years and what I feel as a cohort It's when I was 24 years old, not 20 years old.

[218] And I was still playing for Monaco at the time.

[219] And the police called me. The name is the number of Patrice Aria.

[220] You know, we got a lot of complaint about that eight teacher.

[221] I don't even remember his name.

[222] I don't, I could even tell you his face because I erased all of this in my memory.

[223] There's been a lot of complaint about child, they're being abused about that head teacher.

[224] Did he touch you?

[225] No. Are you sure?

[226] Yes, I'm sure.

[227] And I was angry even when people asked me that question.

[228] You know, I was like, oh, there.

[229] Someone asked me about that.

[230] Put the phone down.

[231] So all this year, I was like, wow, Patrice.

[232] You had the opportunity when you were 13 years old.

[233] You didn't.

[234] I will understand.

[235] But now you're 20 and you couldn't.

[236] Just what?

[237] Because you still shame of it?

[238] Because you're famous, you're scared of the reaction of the people.

[239] But doing that, that day, and that's why growing up, when people say, Patrice, you're good guys, I wasn't feeling that that way because I was feeling as a co -a.

[240] A coward.

[241] A coward, yeah, because he wasn't about Patrice.

[242] It was about the other child I let down when the police called me. He's about the other child.

[243] They're still being abused right now.

[244] So coming out with this Help me a lot And I have to say a massive thanks To the woman of my life, Margot Because You know, sometimes people say You need a psychologist But in life sometimes it's about Which person you meet And someone I really believe in energy And to be fair after that Trusting anyone, a psychologist I will say maybe I will tell him this He don't care He's just pay for that job Some of them are really good And never I never meet any psychologist But May that woman like Like, she was a romantic partner.

[245] Yeah.

[246] She, she, she, she make me being myself and being honest with myself.

[247] Don't be shame of anything, baby.

[248] And I'm here.

[249] And I will never, me, Patrice, the tough guys, don't showing emotion.

[250] Think a woman can, you know, extract those real emotion for myself.

[251] I was like, wow.

[252] So there was a day you told, you shared that with her.

[253] Yeah.

[254] Can you tell me about that day?

[255] Like I said, the day I shared that with her, it was, you know, when she met me, I was 38, so I was just retired from football, doing all my things.

[256] And so, oh, my God, you've seen so happy and such a positive man. But how do you care about yourself, Patrice?

[257] I say, yeah.

[258] And she asked me one simple question.

[259] How are you happy?

[260] yes i'm happy i'm happy you know i make you happy i make my patrice what make you happy uh i'm happy i'm happy no i just saying like i'm happy this is not an answer so she go deep and i we didn't talk about the subject i say no i'm fine she said no because i can see yes you're an impulsive person you like to fight you say because this from the street and everything But I think you got something, you got to pain on your chest and you don't want, I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine.

[261] Then one day, we watched something and it was about pedophile and stuff.

[262] So again, she looked at my face.

[263] She said, like, you're okay?

[264] I said, yeah, I'm okay.

[265] Why are you asking, no, Patrice, I feel you.

[266] You're hiding something.

[267] I say, why, why you, you know, I don't like when.

[268] people want to try inside, go to get inside, I'm fine.

[269] I was still closing the door.

[270] If you love me, you should like, tell me what's going on.

[271] I need to, I need to know, really.

[272] I look at her, I just try crying like a baby.

[273] I cry like a baby.

[274] She hugged me. What's going on?

[275] And I tell her the full story.

[276] So she cry.

[277] She was like, I knew.

[278] Thank you.

[279] Have you said that to someone, to the police, to your mom?

[280] I said, no, you are the first person.

[281] And I don't want to say to anybody else.

[282] Do you want to see a, do you go for therapy?

[283] And I said, I'm fine.

[284] I told you.

[285] No, Patrice, you're going to explode one day.

[286] You need to, you know, let it out.

[287] Then when I cry and I feel much better about myself, And I was still like, you know, I cry in front of her.

[288] Now she will take advantage of me. She will think I'm weak.

[289] But she was like, you know, baby, I even love you more.

[290] This is a strain.

[291] Stop thinking this is a weakness.

[292] That's when she introduced me to that toxic masculinity.

[293] Couldn't understand before.

[294] She explained me what it was about.

[295] Like being a man is not like being strong or, I was like, this is my education.

[296] This is the way I grow up.

[297] This is why the dad, like many dad, they do the same mistake.

[298] And I did the same with my first child, Benny.

[299] Sometimes he was talking to me. I was like, you got everything.

[300] Why you complain?

[301] Come on.

[302] Ah, daddy, you know, when I was doing this, come on, don't be weak.

[303] Daddy, you know, it's painful.

[304] It's okay.

[305] But when I think about all of that, now I'm like, because I live with that toxic masculinity.

[306] And I think men like us, I have to change that.

[307] Crying is a strain.

[308] And you know, when you grow in the streets, just like holding the hand of your girlfriend is a sign of weakness.

[309] Not allowed to do that.

[310] So I'm discovering myself.

[311] We're going to believe that I'm 38 years old, I'm 40, I will start to discover myself.

[312] Now everything makes sense.

[313] That trauma make me become who I am like sometimes a soldier like no emotion I'm going to do the job sometimes I win some trophy we celebrate it was fake I didn't I wasn't like that happy if you ask me patrice are you happy now I say yes now I'm complete I'm content I feel blessed and I feel lucky but when I used to play football I was a robot I was just doing my job your brother you talked about the fact that you started dealing drugs back when you were younger and then your brother started taking drugs.

[314] Yeah.

[315] This was another massive trauma.

[316] You know, when you wake up in the morning and you just want to go in the toilet and you open the door and you see your brother with a, you know, a, how you say it?

[317] A needle?

[318] A needle.

[319] Yeah.

[320] And look at you with like eyes, you know, like red eyes and just closing the door.

[321] And you have to hold on your, you know, if you want to pee, you have to hold it because he's there.

[322] And it was one toilet, the whole house.

[323] And this teach me to never touch any drug because I saw my brother and he lost his life because of that.

[324] He lost his life.

[325] He dies overdose in Senegal.

[326] He even sell his document.

[327] French passport.

[328] And he went in Senegal and one day they called my mom.

[329] My auntie said, your son is dead in a bathroom.

[330] So it was tough for me to talk about this in my book because my mom, she's the son of my mom.

[331] And I don't have the right to talk about it in my book because we're talking about a dead person.

[332] But I just, unfortunately, this show me like taking drug.

[333] I can lose my life.

[334] Like the same for alcohol.

[335] I didn't drink until I was 33 years old.

[336] Because for me, a glass of alcohol, it was the homeless people living in my street.

[337] And anyway, my mom and my dad don't drink.

[338] So I never had that culture.

[339] So that's why I couldn't understand when I came in England and people were drinking, even like footballer players.

[340] And, you know, when we were going to party, they were always said to the way it was going to have hot chocolate for Patrice because the alcohol and the drugs it was like you're going to end up dead poison you know you um so going back to this topic of toxic masculinity it's something i've actually been thinking a lot about because my girlfriend funnily enough has started to talk to me a lot about the idea this is why i was just remaining quiet and listening first but but um she started talking to me a lot about the idea of the masculine and the feminine and how a rounded healthy man embodies both sides of him and is able to tap into both sides of him sounds like your early years made you use one of those sides, which is the masculine side as a form of self -defense in many ways, as a way to survive.

[341] Because I'm hearing what you went through and I'm thinking, you know, using the feminine energy, the emotion, the expression of, you know, how someone feels, care, the softness, wouldn't have been conducive with survival in that situation.

[342] So as you get 40 years on, how do you then unlearn your survival?

[343] technique.

[344] How do you unlearn the masculine, defensive, don't cry, don't show weakness, which you now know is important for you to have good relationships, romantic relationships, to be balanced yourself, to be open, to be expressive, and to not self -destruct.

[345] What I love about you is the way you question myself, you even make me think, but you're right.

[346] If I have this feminine, you know, emotion in that time, I won't survive.

[347] Because we know women are more emotional than men.

[348] So what you just say to me, I'm like, yeah, Patrice, we want to fight against that toxic masculinity, but you're happy when you need it.

[349] Now because you're 40 years old, you don't need it anymore.

[350] And you're a dad now, so you're going to teach.

[351] You're going to teach, but I'd be honest with you.

[352] That's why, you know, my woman was scared when we have our son.

[353] And she was like, Patrice, before he bought, I don't want him to be like you.

[354] Wow.

[355] She put that on my face.

[356] What do you mean?

[357] Yeah, I want him to be determined, passionate, funny, positive.

[358] But I don't want him to have your emotion.

[359] Or lack of.

[360] Yeah.

[361] I was like, but I think, you know, when he cry, I will say like, don't cry.

[362] she was that's exactly what I'm talking about when he cry I want you to say it's okay let your emotion out but it's difficult for me at the beginning so I was like nah I won't I don't want I don't want him to cry when he fall and everything and the funny part is when she was still pregnant you know when woman this is more about relationship because now I know relationship is not just about love, it's about caring and communication.

[363] You know, I don't want to be like now the priest or because when I talk like there's so many people like, oh, I wish my husband is like, you know, I've been the bad guys too.

[364] So don't give me wrong.

[365] But now I'm more like feeling.

[366] Like, so back to that moment, we were in the car.

[367] She was with a drink.

[368] And I said, don't drink because he's bumpy and you're going to, and she hate like, you know, having.

[369] Mark on her.

[370] She drank, but it's all on the shirt.

[371] Yes, she's on the shirt.

[372] She cry.

[373] I promise you, Steve.

[374] I cry instantly with her because I feel her.

[375] I feel a sadness.

[376] The whole Patrice will be like, but come on.

[377] Why are you crying just because you speak, come on?

[378] But in that moment, I didn't, I wasn't focused on the reason why she's crying.

[379] I was like, just on the emotion, she's crying.

[380] She's in pain.

[381] You don't need to fix it.

[382] She needs a hug.

[383] The moment she saw me crying, she stopped crying.

[384] She stopped crying straight away.

[385] And for me, it was new.

[386] I was like, what's going on?

[387] I can even feel your pain.

[388] You know, sometimes you say you love someone, but this is like a deep love.

[389] Like, even now, she cried.

[390] I cry automatically.

[391] Even now.

[392] We're talking when she's, she's next to me. I miss her.

[393] I never experienced that.

[394] And now he's so special to come back to my son.

[395] When he cry now, you know, my woman can be, oh, come on, Lilas.

[396] I'm like, but it's okay.

[397] You know, it must be a reason because he's angry.

[398] So I'm the one softer now.

[399] So that's what I'm like, wow, but you're just a different man. We had a rule if we argue because don't give me wrong.

[400] We argue like normal couple.

[401] We're not special.

[402] But it's just like we don't put it under the carpet.

[403] We fix it.

[404] But not like we force it in a natural way.

[405] When, for example, we argue straight away.

[406] And she said, we need to talk.

[407] Because women say, we need to talk.

[408] I'm not ready.

[409] We need to talk.

[410] I'm not.

[411] No, give me my space.

[412] Then I come back.

[413] Okay.

[414] Let's talk about it.

[415] I'm apologized.

[416] But I'm apologized because I mean it.

[417] Not because you force me to apologize.

[418] And you're not trying to win.

[419] I'm not trying to win.

[420] And then I understand I'm like, okay, baby, oh, lucky we are.

[421] The special love we have right now.

[422] Like, I will never believe the way I believe in love right now.

[423] That's why I'm encouraging all the keys, the next generation, this love exists.

[424] But it exists.

[425] So it's again, it sounds like you're just recounting my life.

[426] Specifically over, I met a lady.

[427] She's called, uh, I would say, Melanie.

[428] And she was very keen, she said very similar things to me. She was like, there's something you've not told me about, et cetera.

[429] And her real sort of drive with me has been trying to make me tap into the feminine side of me, which again means opening up, being vulnerable, removing my ego.

[430] When we argue it's to try and solve a problem as opposed to trying to win.

[431] And that also, and she slowly got this different person out of me. In my previous relationship, snapping, right, leave, I'll just leave.

[432] Right?

[433] Yeah.

[434] And in this one, it's Like, she lets me speak.

[435] I let her speak.

[436] Okay, sometimes we, but we're both trying to understand the person.

[437] And the thing that really changed it, it's funny because when you talked about that day when you opened up with your partner about what had gone on, she created a safe space.

[438] And once you have that safe space and you learn that this is a safe space, this relationship is a safe space.

[439] You don't have to be that person you were in the streets, right?

[440] You don't even have to be the person you are in the group chat on WhatsApp.

[441] You can cry.

[442] You can say, babe, I feel insecure.

[443] I feel triggered.

[444] And that, for me, has been this, like, tremendous catalyst in myself because now I can really investigate myself with someone, right?

[445] And know that they're not going to laugh at me or think I'm not a man. Yeah.

[446] Because I'm crying or because I've got feelings, right?

[447] And that meant that, again, when you just described the way you feel about her, the sense, like, when she's not by your side, you didn't know a love like this existed.

[448] I was saying that this morning.

[449] I've just left her in Indonesia.

[450] And I was saying, I didn't realize I could have a relationship like this.

[451] this with someone where every argument we have heals our relationship to a stronger place.

[452] It doesn't leave a scratch or a scar, which, and that's the thing, you know?

[453] Well, you resume it perfectly.

[454] And like you say, sometimes when we have a discussion, like, our love even get even more stronger.

[455] Stronger, right?

[456] Because we are in love with each other.

[457] But what I like, what you say, a word, safe.

[458] Yeah, safe space.

[459] It's a safe space.

[460] Feeling safe.

[461] Yeah.

[462] Allow to be yourself.

[463] I'll say that to my girlfriend now.

[464] So I say, this sounds like, I've never said this before, but I'll literally say to her, I need a safe space.

[465] And that means that I'm about to say some things which might trigger you, might make you unhappy, but I need to say it because it's how I feel.

[466] So I'll literally say, give me a safe space.

[467] And that means listen to me. But exactly, you know, I think it's easy to listen to someone, but to understand the person, you know, to saying, I heard you, this is different.

[468] Yeah.

[469] It means you really understand.

[470] Because you can talk for many hours.

[471] I'm like, yeah, I'm listening.

[472] Yeah, you're not waiting to speak.

[473] You're building your argument against the right.

[474] No, but exactly.

[475] But what you say, I think we're really similar and I was excited to come today and I'm even more happy to be here and to keep like talking.

[476] We can talk, I think, many hours and I just feel like so open even talking about you.

[477] You asked me a few questions about why my dad live, many things.

[478] Like, it was not easy to not cry, but I like that.

[479] But this is something.

[480] This is something that men need to hear.

[481] And think about just from what we've both learned from our stories there with relationships, but just even two men having a conversation like this, how freeing that is for us, how it's healing for us, but also it allows us to form relationships which are real and deep and meaningful where we don't want to be running out in the street.

[482] And so it's, you know, it's one of the real things I think is going to form a big part of my life too, as you've successfully done with this book, is, trying to tell men without having to meet the women like we met how to be in touch with the true, I don't even say the feminine side, the full version of themselves.

[483] I absolutely, I think, no, but I absolutely agree with you because he's a challenge because we have a little help because we find someone, like you say, we feel open and we can, you know, you can be yourself.

[484] But yeah, I think we should fight with that toxic masculinity because because it's not good even for yourself, but even for your children, for many, for many reasons.

[485] But you test me by saying, Patrice, if you didn't have that masculine, you know, masculine, toxic masculinity, how you will be able to survive in that when you had that kid?

[486] And I will be look at you straight away and saying, no. So it's a good subject.

[487] And I hope if you want to debate more about it, I will be a good client.

[488] Either way, we have to unlearn it, right?

[489] We have to unlearn it once we realize that it's not serving us.

[490] And that is, admittedly, a very slow process.

[491] One that goes, you know, because even I have to be very aware of that part of me, the masculine ego part of me. And I always think with trauma and with these kinds of things, you never actually fully recover.

[492] I think the most important thing is to put it out in front of you so that it's no longer controlling your life from the back room and ruining your relationships and stuff.

[493] Just for me, like, I've got a lot of traumas from my childhood with my parents and their relationship.

[494] I still have them.

[495] And I just have them out in front of me and the power they have over me is diminished.

[496] I know what the triggers are.

[497] I know, I understand them.

[498] And I just want to keep them out in front of me so I can hopefully live a happy life.

[499] Football.

[500] Bit of a segue.

[501] You're very good at football.

[502] I'm trying to figure out how you became so good at football with all of that stuff happening in your life and that cold and you're in and what football was for you as a young man. I was everything.

[503] So football saved my life.

[504] When my friend, they were stealing to get away from the stealing, I was like training on my own, even when it was snowy.

[505] But come on, Patrice, you're never going to succeed anywhere.

[506] You're from the street.

[507] You're a black person.

[508] You will never going to make it.

[509] You know, just find a white, girlfriend with lot of money.

[510] That's what the way the people, yeah, think in my street.

[511] Stop, you know, you look cute.

[512] You can just find a girl.

[513] And, you know, I was like, no, you know, I love football and I need to training every day.

[514] I remember even at school, sometime when we went to school and the teacher couldn't make it because of the traffic or the snow.

[515] And they were like, okay, we free some kids.

[516] They were wanting to go back home.

[517] I was like, no, no, no, it's a football pitch just next to the school, we have to play.

[518] And I was fretting them.

[519] Sometimes they couldn't like some kid.

[520] I was like, if you don't.

[521] come.

[522] I'm going to beat you.

[523] And they were coming and training.

[524] Yeah, I was forcing people to play football with me. Why?

[525] It's an addiction.

[526] I don't know.

[527] It was my reason of living.

[528] Is it your escape?

[529] I think I could say it was both.

[530] He was my escape, but it was also my love, my passion.

[531] Just when you give me like a football ball, he was like everything for me, you know.

[532] I remember that a teacher, the first day you, you come at school and they ask what you want to become later.

[533] And many people were lawyers, a policeman, many good job doctor.

[534] And me, she was reading what I was my note and footballer player.

[535] But I didn't even know what was football a player.

[536] I was like, I play football, but so I'm a footballer player.

[537] And she was taking my note in front of everyone and she was like, Patrice think footballer player is a job.

[538] And everyone was laughing.

[539] Everyone, my friend, I was looking so.

[540] And she was going even.

[541] deeper she was uh but you know if it's a trial and 300 kids they will pick one kid do you think it's going to be you i was like yes and everyone was even more laughing but at the end now i don't want to get any revenge with that teacher i just want to make sure she don't say the same things to other kids because me in that time i was really strong mentally so no one you know can project their own fear because some people, I hate those people when you say, I'm going to this.

[542] No, you can't.

[543] Because they try to projecting their own failure on you.

[544] Me now, if a kid, I was, you know, I see some, some, some kid at the school in Manchester.

[545] And I was like, if you want to become the president of the universe, go for it.

[546] You're going to have a lot of enemies and make a lot of sacrifice.

[547] There's no president of the universe.

[548] I know.

[549] It doesn't exist.

[550] That's what I mean.

[551] But that's what I mean.

[552] I'm like the, even though like the job doesn't exist, go for it.

[553] Go for it.

[554] If you dream about it.

[555] And that's what the beauty of me when I was child.

[556] Like everyone, like, I did a trial at PSG.

[557] And I did everything perfect.

[558] At the end, he said, you're too small.

[559] And you're from the street.

[560] And we scare you're going to steal things in the dressing room.

[561] PSG.

[562] That's what the coach told me. And they didn't take me just for those two reasons.

[563] Fuck, you know.

[564] So.

[565] So I have a lot of like, you won't make it.

[566] And more people do that, more I'm like, that's why I say I'm lucky mentally.

[567] I can't tell you why I'm that strong, maybe about from my dad, my mom or all the things I have to survive.

[568] But this was even making me more stronger.

[569] Did you have a plan B?

[570] No, I didn't have any plan B. This was all or nothing.

[571] And that's the scary things when I think about it now, because some of my friend or some people, they were like, Patrice, you know, school is important.

[572] You should have your diploma and stuff.

[573] I was like, I want to be a footballer player.

[574] But I get in shock when I knew actually playing football you can win money.

[575] I wasn't aware about that.

[576] Like when I signed my first contract when I was 17, I didn't care about the money.

[577] In that time, it will make you laugh.

[578] You know, what I was most happy is when I saw my tracksuit on the bed, And I wear it and I was looking myself in the mirror and I was, oh my God.

[579] And I went downstairs to join the team and I see all the players sit in the table and people coming to serving them the food.

[580] He was like, remember like three fork on one side, three knife on one side.

[581] I called my mom.

[582] I say, mom, I'm even like this is paradise.

[583] People serving us the food.

[584] I've got like three.

[585] Now I've got a track suit.

[586] We all dress the same.

[587] My mom cry at the phone.

[588] I remember that day.

[589] So, you know, when people ask me, what is your best memory when you play football?

[590] That was my best memory.

[591] Not winning the Champions League or when I was 17.

[592] You know, that kid and just having food and a normal track suit make me so happy.

[593] And that's my best memory I had.

[594] since I play football.

[595] Because you'd made it.

[596] I made it that day.

[597] I was like I made it, man. I won't be in the street anymore.

[598] I won't have to survive to fight.

[599] I won't have to beg money.

[600] So it was just crazy.

[601] And even in that time, even some people, they still take advantage.

[602] Because when I signed my first contract, actually, I signed a paper with the mafia, the Italian mafia.

[603] and I was their property and I didn't doubt I found out this when after I wanted to move for IS Roma and IAS Roma we say we have to call off the deal because you're the property of that man and it was a guy from the mafia and actually on that time I remember when I first my my first contract I was herning it was like 50 pound now per month and we had like five months where they didn't pay us.

[604] I remember my mom and my brother, they come to visit me in Sicily and, you know, a breast chicken.

[605] One breast chicken was for three days.

[606] We had to cut it like in cube, little cube.

[607] I remember she was like twisting in a little bag.

[608] And that's it.

[609] That was for the meal for...

[610] Sometime we had only one meal per day.

[611] But I was happy and I remember my mom come to visit me in Sicily.

[612] And she cried.

[613] She said, but what do?

[614] going here.

[615] You know, I was like, mommy, I just love football.

[616] She was like, but you have nothing.

[617] Look where you live.

[618] I was, you know, it was like if you see my first flat, I mean, like, they allowed me to live on that flat.

[619] It was disaster.

[620] But I was happy because I had football.

[621] And every time when I was training or when we played the game, I was scared to the referee to blow the final whistle because I was like what I'm going to do now and back to the reality so for me playing it was it was just a dream hard to imagine it's hard to how how to imagine how difficult life must be for you to not want the whistle to blow on a on a football game is was there a moment where where that changed and where you no longer started to dread the final whistle blowing because your life off the pitch was somewhere to look forward to.

[622] It is when I get rid of those people around me and the mafia.

[623] And I signed with a new agent.

[624] And I sign for nice.

[625] So I go back to France, a bigger salary.

[626] I think I was earning something like 3K per months.

[627] So much better life, be able to even help my mom.

[628] and from that moment I was like okay now I'm safe I'm safe and after you know I sign for Monaco of course and I keep my word I say you know when my dad left and in school they give you like a little money and my dad was taking this money to send it to Senegal to my other brother and sister so I remember my sister went after my mom like you know with true lawyers and everything, she get that money from the school and not my dad anymore.

[629] My sister get that money and she go to buy like some makeup and everything.

[630] I was like, shame on you.

[631] Oh, Mom, like, she's feeding us every single day.

[632] Like, and why you don't give that money?

[633] And I say, me, Mommy, I don't want anything.

[634] This is for you because we're living in your roof.

[635] You're feeding us every day.

[636] This is for you.

[637] No, but Patrice, this is for you.

[638] Mommy, I don't need this.

[639] And I say, Mom, when I'm going to have my big contract, the first things I're going to do because that's what my motivation is to buy a house to my mom.

[640] And I did it, and I think that was one of the most pride moments of my life because I say to my mom and I keep my word and I bought her a house in Senegal before I bought, of course, with my money when I play for Monaco, my Porsche and everything cars because I like cars, not now anymore because I understand all stupid it is.

[641] But yeah, that was one of my biggest achievement.

[642] She must have been proud, right?

[643] My mom, my mom cry every time she's seeing me. Because sometimes she's like, you don't understand.

[644] There's many things you don't know, Patrice.

[645] Like when you were like alone and no one wanted to help us.

[646] And now that's why it's so funny when suddenly you are someone and people, they're like, your auntie come back or your uncle, but they weren't there when, you know, we need them the most.

[647] So she always cries.

[648] She said, I'm too nice.

[649] But me, I'm like, I don't have any hate in my heart.

[650] It's difficult.

[651] And Manchester United?

[652] I'm, uh, yeah, I can't imagine what that would have been like getting a, getting a call that that's, uh, but you will laugh because before United, I will start being over, I will call it overconfident and arrogant.

[653] I was playing for Monaco.

[654] I reached the final of Champions League.

[655] Being named four times in the world, the best left back in the French league, playing for the national team.

[656] So I remember my Asian came and he said, Patrice, you know, in January, he said, it's like teams.

[657] Like, you have Inter, Liverpool, Manchester United.

[658] I say, yeah, cool.

[659] I say, and what stuck in my head when he said, Manchester United, I said cantona.

[660] Really?

[661] Yeah.

[662] Yeah, the colors.

[663] I said, okay, man should say, I swear can't know.

[664] Because I wasn't following.

[665] Really?

[666] Yeah, I can tell you something I don't watch football.

[667] You're supposed to say it was a childhood dream.

[668] It was just like, it's just me. I'm playing football.

[669] So watching football is like going to work.

[670] That's when I was young.

[671] But now as a pundit, I have to watch football game.

[672] But it's something I've never been interested and it's something I never enjoyed.

[673] it.

[674] So I didn't know, although sometimes I was watching some Brazil, Manchester United, because of Contona.

[675] So I said to me, yeah, okay, he said, you should go to Manchester.

[676] I think Manchester suit you.

[677] I say, why not?

[678] Then we met Sir Alex Ferguson because at that time, you know, I still playing for Monaco, so you can't be approached by another team.

[679] You know, you broke the rules.

[680] So we met in the airport in the secret room, yeah.

[681] A secret room at the airport.

[682] Yeah, the secret company in the airport.

[683] And that day, that interview was like being interviewed by the FBI.

[684] It was like, do you smoke?

[685] Do you drink?

[686] Do you like to party?

[687] Are you ready to not lose one game?

[688] Are you ready to not even draw a game?

[689] Yes.

[690] Sir Alex said that.

[691] Yeah.

[692] He shake my hands.

[693] He said, now you shake my hands.

[694] So that's, you know, playing for my United or everything I say, that's what you will have to do.

[695] and all those stuff, even if some people, they drink and they do many things, but it was about more the winning mentality.

[696] And when he shake my hand, he looked straight in my eyes.

[697] And when you look straight at his eyes, you make sure you don't disappoint him.

[698] So what I love about Ferguson is that day also, he say, you know, son, we know your background.

[699] You know where you come from.

[700] But just be yourself.

[701] I won't change you.

[702] I just want you to bleed for United, for the fan, for the people.

[703] people from Manchester, you know, work ethic.

[704] And it was already in my DNA.

[705] So when I joined United, I was like, finally I can be myself.

[706] Because even in France, playing for Monaco, when sometime I was saying, like, I want to be the best left back.

[707] Oh, I am the best.

[708] Oh, he's too arrogant.

[709] Is this?

[710] So the French media, they didn't understand me. They were like, you know, he's too arrogant.

[711] And I win also the youngest French player.

[712] in the league and normally only striker like Henri Zidan.

[713] I was the first defender to win those kind of trophy.

[714] So I was like overconfident.

[715] So when I joined Manchester and Ferguson tell me all those words, it was a different story.

[716] I was like, finally, I can express myself.

[717] Like Canton, I say, you know, in France they will build him the guillotine.

[718] In Manchester, they will build him a statue.

[719] And that's the truth.

[720] Because in Manchester, they let you be yourself.

[721] you know, even if, you know, you have to kick a fan or stuff, they will still be behind.

[722] They know it's wrong, but you still feel the support.

[723] You still feel you're part of the family, so we're going to accept you, you know, the way you are.

[724] And that's what's really important, even if I think everyone know the story of my first game.

[725] I think I so well.

[726] Yeah.

[727] Just a crazy because I just came back.

[728] I just trained with the team three days.

[729] We had a derby against Manchester City.

[730] Playing at 12, I never play at 12 in my life, apart when I was kid, but never play at 12.

[731] Come for the breakfast, nine.

[732] I see Mikhail Silvestra, Luisa, my French teammate, eating beans, you know, pasta.

[733] I'm not a good breakfast guy.

[734] So I start doing the same, you know.

[735] I'm like, okay, in this league, you know, you need to eat because it's a strong league.

[736] I eat.

[737] I feel sick.

[738] I went in my room.

[739] I vomit.

[740] I said, I need to call the doc.

[741] And you need to say to the manager, I can't play that game.

[742] But I was like, Patrice, you just sigh.

[743] You can't say that.

[744] Again, toxic masculinity.

[745] They will say, I'm weak.

[746] I'm scared.

[747] I play.

[748] I play.

[749] Don't ask me why, you know, in Manchester, it's never sunny.

[750] In nine years, I just done like three barbecue in nine years.

[751] That day was so hard.

[752] The son was like, oh, my, I was like, did I'm back to Monte Carlo?

[753] I was like, what's going on here?

[754] I remember the first, the first ball, Trevor Sinclair, just head on me. I was cut straight away.

[755] It was like, welcome to England, welcome to the Premier League.

[756] And in one point, one point I was again, the post, I remember, you know, when you have those bubble, the cartoon and you've, you know, writing what you think about, I was like, oh my God, what the hell I'm doing here?

[757] The football is so fast.

[758] so strong, I should have kept chilling in Monte Carlo.

[759] Losing 2 -0 halftime, Ferguson gave the air dryer to everyone.

[760] And he comes to me, say, you, now you sit and you learn the English football.

[761] So I didn't understand because, you know, I didn't speak very well English.

[762] And Carlos Carios was the one like translating.

[763] And I put my, you know, the doctor was like cleaning my blood.

[764] And I put my, and Carlos said, no, no, Patrice is, it's over.

[765] is finished.

[766] So imagine me playing for France.

[767] Best left back.

[768] Being sub after the first 45 minutes.

[769] But he gets even worse and worse.

[770] After that, so we lose the game.

[771] I back home and my Italian agent with his wife were staying with me in my flat.

[772] And my agent looked at me like this.

[773] He said, Patrice, I'm sorry.

[774] Say what?

[775] He said, I should never book you in.

[776] Manchester.

[777] I'm sorry.

[778] You should have stayed in Monaco, you know.

[779] And his wife on the background looking at me, I promise to say that day, I was so low.

[780] I was like, even my own agent, he don't believe in me anymore.

[781] I was like, wow.

[782] So after that, I know I play a Liverpool game, a good game.

[783] We win one zero, Rio Ferdino's score, the winning goal and everything.

[784] And I had a great game.

[785] So he back, but the first six months was really difficult for me and Nemanavidich.

[786] We came in, we arrived at the same time.

[787] We even play with the reason.

[788] and we get sub half time again in the reserve in the reserve imagine me and nemania village in the shower i remember i say oh my asian say you know i es roma i will maybe go back in italy village was like okay i will go to moscow also they they want me back and stuff so all of that my teammate were laughing rio when rune when in the training i was like sleeping and they were like laughing when someone was you know shorter you they were laughing And I remember one day, Paul Scholes, when I make it, when you respect me, he said, you know, Patrice, I think you were like a jockey.

[789] I even asked, like, the boss, if you can sell you back to Monaco, but for free.

[790] Send you back for free, yeah.

[791] And I look at them, you know, all those things, you know, when I saw my teammate laughing, when I was not playing a game, he didn't put me down.

[792] I was like, I'm going to show them what is the real, Patrice.

[793] Because it's difficult when you come to a club like, you know, end of January, because, you know, you miss half of the season.

[794] So after I missed the World Cup, my follow French teammate, Luisa and Mikkel Silas, they went to the World Cup 2006.

[795] I was fuming.

[796] I back to Monaco.

[797] I was in the gym all the summer.

[798] I was looking at the French national team reaching the final of World Cup, but they lose against Italy.

[799] So I was like, okay, I understand the football in England now.

[800] It's like you have to be strong first, then after you can play with your feet.

[801] So I get some muscle, everything.

[802] I came back to the preseason.

[803] We had a preseason in South Africa.

[804] I was the man of the tournament.

[805] And I remember Mick Fieland, the second coach, he came and he checked my hand and said, now you are United players.

[806] From that day, even before the season start, I know I will make it.

[807] And the rest is history.

[808] You played in a lot of teams.

[809] I sat here with Roe Ferdinand as well.

[810] I asked him a very similar question.

[811] What was it that made Manchester United?

[812] achieve the success they achieved?

[813] It's so many things.

[814] You know, when you say I can say, like the work, hitting, the discipline, the passion, the, I think is also the character, personality.

[815] I think Ferguson, he wanted to meet player in person to see if he can feel their character, their personality, if they're going to be ready to, to handle the pressure.

[816] Pressure, playing for Manchester, the pressure is a gift, it's a privilege.

[817] Like, I want to add pressure.

[818] Like, I didn't want Ferguson to say, you play a good game.

[819] I want Ferguson, like, to give me the air dryer.

[820] It was a little bit, like, it's really weird, but I didn't expect any compliment.

[821] Like, for me, playing for under Sir Alex Ferguson and Manchester United, I wasn't, I never scared of anyone.

[822] I never scared of Sir Alex Ferguson, but I was scared to disappointing him.

[823] So it's about respect.

[824] What makes Manchester United is like, I have many coaches they say winning is important, but Ferguson winning in United is normal.

[825] Like, the goal is to win like four trophy per season.

[826] I will tell you a story.

[827] When we won the Champions League in 2008, exciting, we went on the plane, putting the music loud, you know, dancing.

[828] Ryan Giggs, look at me, can, you know, can you put this?

[829] I was like, hey, we just win the Champions League and the Premier League, yeah, yeah, but, you know, we need to sleep, we need to rest.

[830] I was like, okay, that's, that's weird.

[831] We land.

[832] Ferguson, I remember we were on the bus and he took the mic.

[833] He said, congratulations.

[834] Well done.

[835] I'm proud of you to be in the champion of Europe.

[836] But next year, if you don't want to win it again, I will end many contract of many players of you.

[837] If you don't, I don't feel the same passion and the same anger.

[838] Now, because he was.

[839] the Euro 2008, now go and enjoy having the, and use the F word with your national team.

[840] Boom.

[841] No parade, no celebration with the fan.

[842] I remember I went home and I was with my back.

[843] I dropped it.

[844] I was like, this is the feeling of winning the Champions League and the league?

[845] I was like, wow.

[846] But the problem, you become a robot.

[847] So you're not even happy when you win the league.

[848] the years and years.

[849] I was, you know, when we celebrate and it was fake?

[850] Inside, he was just pretending.

[851] Of course, he's a release, he's an achievement, but because you just become a machine, a robot, winning, that's the only things matter.

[852] And that's why he goes to play for Man United, but also sacrifice.

[853] You know, when I talk about sacrifice, I'm not shame about you even have to sacrifice your own family.

[854] That's what I did.

[855] I give you an example.

[856] You know, my first son, Lenny, he was three years old.

[857] And I came back home one day and he was crying.

[858] I said, why are you crying?

[859] He said, because I hate Manchester United.

[860] I say, why?

[861] He said, because they took my dad away.

[862] And you know, the United fan, they have a flag where they united kids and wife in that order.

[863] I never laughed in that flag.

[864] A lot of people.

[865] I never because that's that's the that's what it caused me to succeed at united was united united that's why I had a really strong relationship with ferguson because he knew i don't need manchester united i love manchester united and i could like die for this club and i still could die for this club for the fan and for any manager so to play for Manchester united it costs you your life, your normal life.

[866] You're part of another family.

[867] It's interesting because when you were younger, you had a problem with authority.

[868] Exactly.

[869] Ferguson is the ultimate authority.

[870] I still, in different way, I still, you know, Ferguson, sometime he choward on me, I was stood up facing.

[871] Like, I was like, if you go far, I don't know, I don't guarantee nothing will happen.

[872] But it's also, I wanted to make sure I didn't want to disobey in front of people.

[873] This is really important because you always question, you know, the coach if you answer back.

[874] And that's why I also say to kids, when the manager talk, you should never answer back in the front of the people.

[875] But you can go after.

[876] And that's what I was doing with Ferguson.

[877] So I tell you one game, we play against Totnam, winning two new halftime, playing the best game in my life.

[878] I promise you.

[879] I was like, wow, on fire.

[880] Came back in the dressing room in some water people.

[881] Oh my God, Patrice, you're on fire, everything.

[882] I sit.

[883] Ferguson said, when he sit and he doesn't speak for three minutes or five, like you mean like someone is in trouble.

[884] I look at him.

[885] He look at me. He said, Patrice, you okay?

[886] And me, yeah, yeah, I'm okay, boss, yeah.

[887] Are you tired?

[888] Seriously, I look around.

[889] Seriously, I look at.

[890] if he was like a prank, if he was some camera, even people were like, what?

[891] I say, no?

[892] He said, why you pass the ball back to Vandersa?

[893] I say, because I didn't have any solution forward, and that was the only pass I passed because I like to play forward.

[894] If you do that again, I will, you will come and watch the rest of the game next to me. And he used the many F word.

[895] He said, this is the worst game you're playing since you play for me. Manchester United.

[896] That's why I stood up.

[897] I was like, what's going on?

[898] This is, this is like, this is, he was like, you shouldn't, if you pass the ball back again, I promise you you will never play for.

[899] And justice, but I keep my mouth sharp.

[900] I was biting my lips.

[901] Even people, they were in shock.

[902] They were scared of like, gigs.

[903] Everyone was like, what's going on?

[904] Came back second half.

[905] We beat Tottenham 4 -0, boom, boom, 4 -0 and everything.

[906] After the game, everyone, oh my God.

[907] don't listen to him, Patrice, you were on fire.

[908] I did my shower quickly.

[909] I remember the night.

[910] I couldn't wait to sleep and to come back the next day.

[911] Next day I come.

[912] I open.

[913] What is it?

[914] I opened the door.

[915] Oh, Patrice.

[916] How are you, my son?

[917] Say, boss, oh, I am?

[918] What's happened yesterday?

[919] Patrice, you were the best player on the beach.

[920] But you know, Christiano was starting doing some skill.

[921] Some player, they were like missing, to chance to score, you know, when you play for my United, when you score one goal, you have to score a second.

[922] When you score a second, you have to score a third goal.

[923] You have to respect the people they come to watching.

[924] I was like, wait a minute, boss.

[925] You were the best player, my son.

[926] I like, get out of my office, FFC.

[927] I was French FFC.

[928] And he was like whistling, singing and laughing.

[929] Then I came out of the office.

[930] I was like, actually, you know, I could take the fire.

[931] He wanted to send a message to the other player.

[932] To Cristiano.

[933] Cristiano and many of the player to keep focus and to respect Tottenham.

[934] But he picked the best player in the pitch to send that message.

[935] Automatically, or the other player, they were like, if he's killing the best player in the pitch, we better.

[936] But that's what I'm talking about managing.

[937] that's Fergie.

[938] You had a bust up with Fergie in 2007.

[939] Yeah.

[940] When he didn't play you.

[941] Oh, yeah.

[942] He promised he'd play you, then didn't play you.

[943] Oh, yeah.

[944] He's, uh, this was a, and even now, and even I'm going to see him, uh, on Saturday, I never ask him the real reason.

[945] So it's simple.

[946] I've played every cup game, if a cup game.

[947] I've been named the best left back in the Premier League.

[948] It was like, you know, competition with me and Enzer, but I play more game.

[949] And anyway, the final before the day before the final, he did the team.

[950] No, he come.

[951] We were working with Carlos Carios.

[952] And he was, unfortunately, an article on the paper.

[953] And a big title in the son.

[954] And he was like, Patricevra, ex -drug dealer.

[955] gangster and a first page.

[956] Wow.

[957] You know what they did?

[958] They went to where I grew up.

[959] They questioned many of my friend.

[960] And all of my friends, they say, yes, here, you know, we were fighting, you know, doing this.

[961] And, you know, and they said, but Patrice is an example for us because he made it.

[962] So that paper used that telling, oh, I was a gangster and everything.

[963] So it was a front page.

[964] And the day before the game, Ferguson, we were walking, going to train.

[965] And he said, ah, Patrice, we need to talk.

[966] So what's the matter, boss?

[967] He said, you know, the glazer, the owner, they called me and, you know, for the club, for the image of the club, you know, an ex -gangster and stuff is, you know, it's no good.

[968] I think I won't play you tomorrow.

[969] I was like, but boss, he, no, I'm joking.

[970] And he was like to care.

[971] Oh, I got him.

[972] You know, he was scared.

[973] No, no, don't worry.

[974] We train the first 11th on the team.

[975] Everything perfect.

[976] The day of the game in the morning, I like to put music.

[977] I remember Ferguson allowed you also to order your breakfast in the room.

[978] You don't need to go downstairs and dancing.

[979] Tuck, tak.

[980] So, okay, I think it's the room service.

[981] Open the door.

[982] So Alex Ferguson, he said, son, I'm going to put you in the bench.

[983] And they're going to start.

[984] But you know what?

[985] but I know you're going to win the game for us.

[986] You know, it's really warm, Wembley.

[987] You're going to come in and in some speeds and friends.

[988] You're going to win the game.

[989] I know you disappointed.

[990] I said, I am very disappointed.

[991] He said, I know, I know, son, but trust me, I'm tired, he left.

[992] So I remember, after 10 minutes, he asked me to warm up.

[993] We weren't playing well.

[994] I warm up for 80 minutes.

[995] It was even, like, the smoke in, like, I was like, first of all, I was really angry and I was, like, running, like, crazy mad because I needed like, you know, all this frustration has to come out.

[996] We lost, one nil against Chelsea.

[997] I remember we went to take the medal.

[998] I take it, I throw it under grass.

[999] Ferguson tried to shake my hand.

[1000] I didn't shake his hand.

[1001] So first time in my life, I did respect him.

[1002] My agent was there.

[1003] Why you don't play?

[1004] I said, go to us to your manager.

[1005] People from Manchester.

[1006] Are you injury, Patrick?

[1007] No, go to us to your manager.

[1008] I say to my agent, I need to go.

[1009] I don't want to play for my United anymore.

[1010] Find me a club.

[1011] No, Patrice, I need to go.

[1012] I don't want to play for my United anymore.

[1013] It was the party.

[1014] Everyone was like with the family and stuff.

[1015] I wasn't smiling.

[1016] And three days later, Ferguson called me and they say, Patrice, I'm sorry, I should have played you.

[1017] I hope you're not too upset.

[1018] And because he told me that I automatically forgive him, but I still don't know the reason, especially what's happening in the paper and the joke.

[1019] And I never ask him the reason.

[1020] But yeah, I was, that's it.

[1021] That's what I was, I don't want to play for United anymore.

[1022] Are you going to ask him?

[1023] No, because I'm someone, you know, I know he's a lot of my interview and my stuff and even watch my video, so maybe he's going to tell me one day.

[1024] But I don't ask.

[1025] I don't ask people.

[1026] I just like to people they are free.

[1027] If they want to say something about something, they just tell me. I don't like to ask people.

[1028] Does it bother you?

[1029] When I talk about it, just think like, yeah, but not really because at the rest of my career for United and the love I've got for this man, you know, his story.

[1030] So no, but it's just like, again, my past.

[1031] Maybe my past cost me, you know, my starting 11, but.

[1032] forgiveness the topic of forgiveness um Suarez Suarez um in an altercation on the pitch he called you Negrito I was watching that game which is a offensive word for um a black person that incident was a um was a bit of a media circus wasn't it yeah but I will never expect that because so like you say and he called me unfortunately for him I speak Spanish and I say what did you say again the N word and he said anyway I don't speak with any N word so I remember in that time I was like this is this is when I was like I'm so proud of myself because I was talking to myself should I punch him?

[1033] But Patrice, this is a Liverpool, Manchester.

[1034] All the kids are watching this game.

[1035] People won't understand.

[1036] So I promise you, I had an amazing first time.

[1037] The second half, I was just like, it was a process, talking to myself, don't do it.

[1038] You know, when you have like the devil and an angel, don't do it, do it, don't do it, do it.

[1039] All the game.

[1040] I wasn't in the game.

[1041] And I play okay.

[1042] It was fine.

[1043] We drew.

[1044] And after the game, I just sat and Ferguson saw me and he was like, Patrice, what's the matter?

[1045] You know, he had a good game.

[1046] What's the matter?

[1047] I said, no, David DeGay, I say, Suarez called him a negrito.

[1048] I was like, Patrice, that's cool.

[1049] Take me, we went to the referee.

[1050] We tell him he takes note.

[1051] But by the way, even on the pitch, I said to the referee, did you hear what he just say?

[1052] He called me with the N -word.

[1053] Come on, Patrice, he called me with the N -word.

[1054] Play, play, play, play.

[1055] We're going to deal with that letter.

[1056] Because I forget to always mention that.

[1057] And his long time and every interview, I never say that.

[1058] And that referee, we're going to deal with that letter.

[1059] Really?

[1060] He called you that?

[1061] Yes, he did.

[1062] Okay.

[1063] So we went to the official.

[1064] We tell him.

[1065] He said, yeah, yeah, Patrice told me about that.

[1066] So he was aware.

[1067] So Ferguson, like, kill him.

[1068] So you were aware and why you didn't send him off?

[1069] Yeah, okay, we're going to deal with that.

[1070] And, you know, to the English Federation.

[1071] So the next day, boom, front page.

[1072] Suarez, you know, racially abused, but you say, well, I didn't expect that.

[1073] So, I don't know how possible.

[1074] I start to become a liar.

[1075] I start to become people in jail in Liverpool, sent many later of they're going to kill me when they're going to come out of jail.

[1076] People start following me with my car.

[1077] I had for three months, 24 hours like security, but can I be honest, you.

[1078] My brothers and my family, they were like scared, but I was like, guys, we don't need that because I'm from the streets.

[1079] So, come on, we don't need protection.

[1080] But the threat were real.

[1081] That's why my United, they say, Patrice, even if you don't need that, we need.

[1082] So for three months, like 24 hours and everything.

[1083] So unbelievable.

[1084] But the worst part is when we watch a game with all the players and Ferguson and we saw the Liverpool player came out with that shirt and support Louisville.

[1085] And the worst part, he was like, he gets banned.

[1086] So it's not like they do it when, before he get the ban.

[1087] He gets banned because after he lies, you know, in my country, we use the word.

[1088] Like, I know they use narrow, but no, Negrito.

[1089] Negrito is the N word.

[1090] Nero is the color.

[1091] And even I always say to people, you don't have to call me by my caller.

[1092] My mom gave me a name.

[1093] I don't need to be anyway.

[1094] So with the camera, they could see with his lips.

[1095] like he said the end word.

[1096] And they support him and he was Kevin Daglish.

[1097] I remember I hate so much Kevin Daglish to let this happen that day.

[1098] And the karma, he gets sacked after one month after that game.

[1099] So I did a TV show with Jamie Caragher and I promise you, I, Jamie, like, you know.

[1100] We start talking and he said, Patrice, I just would like to apologize about what's happening nine years ago.

[1101] What we have done is wrong.

[1102] I was in shock.

[1103] I didn't expect that.

[1104] I was like, wow, okay.

[1105] He said, we didn't know, you know, the club tell us to do that.

[1106] And after that, I received, like, later from the owner of Liverpool, emails saying, like, we're more, we're sorry, you more than welcome here and everything.

[1107] You can feel home.

[1108] I will never feel home when I go to Liverpool.

[1109] Thank you for that.

[1110] But it was so nice.

[1111] And I know many of my friends, they were like, Patricia, you should forgive them.

[1112] I say, guys, it's never, it's never too late.

[1113] And I don't have any hate.

[1114] And I, and I keep saying, I can't call Luis Suarez a racist because I don't know him close enough to call him that way.

[1115] But in that day, he used some racist word.

[1116] And he gets even worse for him when about the end shake.

[1117] That's when I was like, okay, it's a disgrace.

[1118] Because even when I called my mom and my mom said, the way indicated, Patricia, you should forgive.

[1119] And I remember that game was one of the most, like Toppick was the end check.

[1120] He wasn't even Liverpool Monches.

[1121] That's when I see like he was bigger than that, that things was bigger than the game.

[1122] And when I put, and he didn't, I was like, you put your hand out, he didn't shake it.

[1123] And I was like, I'm going to kill him now.

[1124] I remember that game.

[1125] I even take a Rio Ferdino, you can see because I wanted to catch Suarez, but he jumped.

[1126] So I take like Rio Ferdinna and he's that picture when Rio Ferdinor, you look like he's broken his neck.

[1127] because I wasn't wanted to play the game.

[1128] I just wanted to kill him.

[1129] And I have one story also.

[1130] After all those episodes, one day, I was walking in Manchester in Dinsgate.

[1131] And my brother said, oh, he's Louis Suarez over there.

[1132] I was with two of my brother.

[1133] I look at him.

[1134] I was like, that's it.

[1135] This is the moment.

[1136] And he walked and behind him, I saw his kid and his wife.

[1137] And we, and I turned my back.

[1138] I was like, if you do something to him, you can't do this in front of his family.

[1139] So I don't regret it because I think he will end up bad.

[1140] And I didn't do nothing that day.

[1141] I saw him when we play against Barcelona with Chuventries in the final.

[1142] I was talking with Nehmer, he passed, he come, he shake my hands.

[1143] So you're okay, I said, I'm okay, you're okay.

[1144] So no beef, but we definitely know going to go in holiday.

[1145] in our life, but yeah.

[1146] Have you forgiven him?

[1147] Yeah.

[1148] But because like I say, that's when now we, I want to talk a little bit about the racism.

[1149] And like I said to people, it's about education.

[1150] No one born as a racist person.

[1151] And you know, when you, when the football now, they ban people when they have those racist comment or, I don't think this is the solution.

[1152] because if you ban someone, you put him, I know he's really sensitive, but you put him in a box, you don't resolve the matter.

[1153] And even that person will even become more racist and feeling more rejected.

[1154] But where he comes from?

[1155] I've got a friend.

[1156] They're not ashamed to tell me, Patrice.

[1157] I've got black friend and everything.

[1158] But my daughter or my son will never be with a black person because my dad or my granddad will never accept it.

[1159] So that's why I understand, you know, racists, you need to fight.

[1160] with your own parents.

[1161] It's nothing to do it's about religion when it was the Paris attack.

[1162] Everyone starts to blaming the Muslim people.

[1163] Islam, I did a post.

[1164] I was on the plane.

[1165] I say, you know what?

[1166] And by the way, I grew up as a Catholic, but if you ask me, what is your best religion right now is to be the best human being I can.

[1167] I'm not a Catholic.

[1168] I'm not a Muslim.

[1169] But I can pray with Jewish people, with Muslim people, Buddha, everything.

[1170] because I respect every religion.

[1171] But now the religion, my religion, is to be the best human being I can.

[1172] Then I did that post when I say, I think it's not time to spread your anger, you know, when you should pray for the people we lost.

[1173] And by the way, I read the Quran, Islam is such a beautiful religion.

[1174] It's about love and everything.

[1175] So I really, and it came from my heart.

[1176] And I feel like I had to do it.

[1177] My dad called me, what you're doing, you know?

[1178] You don't know them.

[1179] They are terrorists and everything.

[1180] I said that, this is your opinion, but it's not mine.

[1181] He put the phone down.

[1182] We didn't speak for two weeks.

[1183] He called me after two weeks.

[1184] He said, I'm sorry.

[1185] Say, wow, you're a man now.

[1186] You stood to your own opinion.

[1187] I say, yes, Dad.

[1188] And I won't change it.

[1189] Like, you can't because one person does something, then all the people are the same.

[1190] So that's why I like to give this example, because sometimes you have to stand up against your, you know, your own, your own father, even if you scare them.

[1191] Because those people, the racist, it doesn't come like because they just become racist.

[1192] It's because they've been taught.

[1193] So if we want to change something, it's about the education, you know.

[1194] And I have enough people pretending they want to fight against the racism.

[1195] And I will talk about massive, like, football industry.

[1196] I give the example of the, that's not.

[1197] stupid Super League.

[1198] Super League, yeah.

[1199] A project, that project didn't even start.

[1200] We shut down that project in 24 hours.

[1201] I remember I watch on TV.

[1202] My ex -team made the point, they shouldn't, the fan, fighting, burning things.

[1203] Like, I was like, wow, I was watching.

[1204] I was like, oh my God.

[1205] They are so unique, they terminate the president of the FIFA, the way, five, oh, they are.

[1206] snake, those owners and stuff, like, wow, we should.

[1207] But I was like, but why we don't have the same determination when we talk about racism, especially in football?

[1208] Players getting abused every single game.

[1209] But we don't start.

[1210] So don't pretend you want to do it when you don't.

[1211] But the real reason, and me I'm straight and maybe I'm irritated a certain person, that super league you were touching their pocket.

[1212] Racism?

[1213] it's not about money everyone like you don't care play on you know like even social media I'm someone I am on social media I don't want any help from Instagram from Facebook for everything because you can delete your comment you can like block people everything and anyway when I have racist comment I will do a nice video when I'm eating a banana and things because it really like when I was 70 years old people were throwing real banana in my face when I was So it's not like someone behind his computer can affect me, but this is Patrice or the people, they're going to read comment about them.

[1214] They're going to even suicide when we're talking about the mental health.

[1215] So you have to explain me one thing.

[1216] When it's about the COVID -19, you get the flags right away.

[1217] But when it's about the races, like sometimes you feel like those social media, they just let the race, they spread the races on their own platform.

[1218] So, Stop pretending.

[1219] If you want to do something, let's do it.

[1220] But I know until, you know, money is not involved, things will difficult to be changed.

[1221] Yeah, kick the racies.

[1222] They asked me to put the shirts.

[1223] Many times I go to the one, mom, I didn't put that shirt because I don't, it's fake.

[1224] They, they asked me like to say no to the races in front of the camera.

[1225] Many players respect, no to race.

[1226] But the player, they don't, they don't even care because they just, they tell them to say that.

[1227] Come.

[1228] Teach to people.

[1229] racism saying those words now you i say silence is a crime because people lose their life because of that you know you said your religion was to live a good life no to be the best human being to be your best human being you can um how do you define that now uh what does that mean he mean to uh to be kind to people to be kind to the universe uh to make the world a better place um to help people to like I'll be honest with you now and I say that not to make myself looking good when I do a video and I see a comment someone say oh Patrice my dad passed away I watch one of your video and I smile thank you this is more important for me than win the championship or the Premier League because this touch my heart you know like I say I play football yeah But also one of my biggest achievement, and I don't want to talk about it to spread it, but it's when I opened my two shelters in Senegal, more than 400 kids.

[1230] And I remember the day when I went there and they were singing for me because I give them food and, you know, school and everything.

[1231] That's when I'm like, now I know why I'm on earth, not just to kick a ball around.

[1232] That's it.

[1233] That's why I say people, I'm like an iceberg.

[1234] You know, I like to use that.

[1235] That example, because I think people didn't see the real Patrice.

[1236] And, you know, many managers, they named me captain of the, you know, I remember the first time, like Ferguson, say, you're going to be the captain.

[1237] And Rio was still playing gigs and Wayne Rune and a lot of people.

[1238] I was like, the French guys from the street is the captain of the biggest club, you know, in the world.

[1239] But because they know that culture of sharing, leadership, not being selfish, all of that, this is me. And one thing that changed because of my woman is I'm taking care of myself now.

[1240] I also want to be happy because before if the world is happy, if you are happy, this make me happy.

[1241] But now Patrice also sometimes he takes his time.

[1242] Like I had like, can you believe in the last two years I have just one holiday to tell you like even now I'm retired but I'm more busy than when I used to play.

[1243] but for the first time I turned my phone off for a week and it was just amazing because I don't allow to do that because I've got things to do.

[1244] I've got people to take care of us.

[1245] For the first time I take care of myself it was just magic.

[1246] Like my woman just wanted to lock me down in that island and didn't want me to coming back and I won't be able to do actually this podcast today.

[1247] So we did it.

[1248] I come back to reality, but yeah, this is tell you like, I just, I, it's not just want to be good.

[1249] I just want to be myself and, you know, I never, I had one, one problem.

[1250] It's like, I still like to fight.

[1251] So this is like from, from where I grew up.

[1252] So sometimes my woman teach me like, don't use your fist.

[1253] You know, again on my book when I kicked that fan and people compare me to Eric Canton, but it wasn't my, you know, my goal in Marseille.

[1254] But it's because this guy, he said like, stop, you know, like talking like a mom.

[1255] And anyway, when we go back, we're going to cut the throw of your kids.

[1256] And I am a human being.

[1257] And that's why people forget sometimes footballer player.

[1258] They think we are like robot, but no, we got feeling.

[1259] When he did that, he came down.

[1260] So I kick him.

[1261] I get eight months ban, I think 80K or fine.

[1262] I don't remember.

[1263] So I'm not perfect.

[1264] And I don't want to be perfect.

[1265] I want to be me. Some people, I am an example for them.

[1266] But I don't want, it's not like I want to be an example for anyone.

[1267] I just want to be me. If I inspire people, then perfect.

[1268] You are an iceberg.

[1269] You're definitely an iceberg, that's for sure.

[1270] And this book definitely reveals the rest of the iceberg that doesn't sit above the water.

[1271] And as someone, as I said, that's watched you on screen for many, many decades and has seen you more recently online and as a pundit on TV, I would never have guessed their sort of complexity and backstory that, um, that you've, have and your sort of you know it's an interesting word to use but your your vulnerability let's say in sharing all of that i think will do more good than you'll ever realize because it it opens the door for other people to share and as we said it creates a safe space for men young men men that come from where you come from men like me to also share and in sharing we liberate ourselves that tends to be what happens and then we we have permission to live a more free life because because of that.

[1272] So I want to thank you for that.

[1273] I think that's one of the most amazing things you can do and you've done that with this book and on behalf of everybody that has the chance of reading it and I hope everybody does go and read it.

[1274] Thank you.

[1275] Thanks to you to having me and to also some emotion, you know, you bring out some emotion I didn't know one and I did many interview when I'm doing my book too and question like you asked me today and really I trust you the way I've been honest and no thank to you because i'm already feeling better and that's why i hope like every people and every kids they have the chance to to read my book and you know if they are like those issues to come out it's not easy you know it's easy for me to tell them please come out but trust someone trust someone and trust me you it's a massive like things i've got in my chest for so many years and for me like i said to my mom traveling and she was just devastated and sometimes she still sent me some voice noise she's crying because she could still don't understand so don't keep it don't keep it tell it to your parents tell it to your brother or your sister i've got 24 brothers and sister and i didn't even tell that to any one of them so be yourself enjoy your life live the present and be good to the universe that's a beautiful ending.

[1276] I have just one more question for you.

[1277] And this is a question, this is a new tradition we've started, Patrice, where the previous guest on this podcast leaves a question for the next guest.

[1278] So the previous guest left a question for you, and you're going to leave a question for the next guest as well.

[1279] And I'm going to find out what that question is, because I've not actually read it yet.

[1280] Okay, here we go.

[1281] Name three people, dead or alive, that you would have dinner with tonight, if you could.

[1282] My mom, my woman, and you.

[1283] Oh, that's a tremendous honor.

[1284] Yeah.

[1285] Why me?

[1286] Because the way you, many things came out and you're an interesting person.

[1287] And I feel energy and I feel your soul and you're a good soul.

[1288] And I can see you're doing all of this because you want to make the world a better place.

[1289] And, you know, when you surrender.

[1290] around people like you, you just improve.

[1291] And that's what I want to, you know, sometimes I'm like, don't surrender about negative people.

[1292] Help them also to understand why they are negative.

[1293] But your energy, you're really curious.

[1294] I can feel it.

[1295] You're going deep.

[1296] You want to understand the reason why, because it's easy to do the book I have to do, but I wanted someone who was able to ask me the reason why.

[1297] And that's what I, you know, I can have a conversation and we can have a dinner and we're going to talk about a lot of things.

[1298] and I really about the toxic, you know, masculinity.

[1299] So that's why I pick you.

[1300] Okay.

[1301] Well, we're going to organize that dinner.

[1302] So, you know, we'll figure it out for sure because I feel the same way.

[1303] And as I'm still kind of early on that journey of understanding my ego and toxic masculinity and how it stands in my way, the more men that I can speak to like yourself that have been on that journey and started to learn lessons, the better it will be for myself selfishly.

[1304] But hopefully that's, you know, and I think, you know, the good, I think we've just done talking about that today.

[1305] And it's funny because I know some of the people that listen to this and where they listen to it because they tag me. And they are men that are driving eight hours on a Monday morning up and down the country in big vans.

[1306] They are builders on building sites that want to be entrepreneurs.

[1307] And just, again, as we've done on this podcast, creating that safe space where we can talk about feelings and crying and your emotions and communicating what's going on in your life, oh, it's the most important service I think we can do to men.

[1308] So, I hope we can carry on that conversation and I'm going to be pestering your PA to organize this dinner.

[1309] I'm going to pass you the book to write a question for my next guest, but thank you so much.

[1310] It's been an absolute honor.

[1311] Honestly, it's been an absolute honor.

[1312] And you're, you're even more of a role model to me than you have been for the last 20 years and that's been, that's hard to beat.

[1313] Thank you.

[1314] Thank you.

[1315] Thank you.