Kal Penn

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I am sitting across from a recently decorated Monica Padman.

[2] Oh, that could go so many ways, like decorated with metals.

[3] Decorative metals.

[4] Yeah.

[5] Yeah, but in fact, it was decorative toenail polish.

[6] That's right.

[7] But I'm getting, I got a real premier view of them.

[8] Oh, yeah, that's right.

[9] They look fantastic.

[10] Now, I don't believe he had his nails done recently.

[11] We don't know.

[12] We have Cal Penn today.

[13] I got to tell you, Cal Penn, what an amazing story, Cal Penn. You know, you probably know him from Harold and Kumar, Van Wilder, House Designated Survivor.

[14] But what's really crazy and interesting about him is he left all that behind to go work in the White House in the Office of Public Engagement during the Obama administration.

[15] Yeah.

[16] What a choice.

[17] I know.

[18] Gosh.

[19] I'm so jealous of it because he's a Renaissance man now.

[20] Well, he really technically checks all the boxes for the Renaissance man. We hope you enjoy Cal Penn. Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[21] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[22] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[23] He's an armchair.

[24] But I got to tell you, I fucking love it.

[25] I don't fatigue.

[26] from it at all.

[27] It could.

[28] Yeah, I really, really.

[29] I mean, you guys have such an amazing time.

[30] It's nice to hear that it's like legitimately.

[31] Well, our real hobby is if we're not doing it here, we are on the patio at my house.

[32] Monica and I are debating some hot button topic.

[33] That's it.

[34] I'm into motorcycles and chatting.

[35] Yeah.

[36] What's the hottest button that you've had recently?

[37] God, that's a dangerous question to ask us.

[38] I mean, I think we both know generally what it is.

[39] Well, I don't actually.

[40] Hottest?

[41] Most tacos.

[42] Let's start.

[43] Yes, tacos.

[44] I wish it was.

[45] It should be.

[46] It should be.

[47] You're right.

[48] We haven't even ventured into the taco realm.

[49] Well, let's just start by saying the reason they become hot button topics is that we both love each other so much.

[50] We would love to have the same point of view on things.

[51] So when we don't, it's got an elevated weight to it.

[52] Yeah.

[53] That's true.

[54] But this reminds me, I have a very good friend who I worked with in D .C. She's brilliant.

[55] She is an environmental lawyer.

[56] and found out recently over drinks that she's not entirely sure about climate science.

[57] What are you talking about?

[58] What do you mean?

[59] Well, what are you?

[60] How is that?

[61] And I thought she was joking for the longest time.

[62] And it was like, I don't understand.

[63] We, this can't be true.

[64] Right, right.

[65] And then, and I was like, is this like, are you one of these people who doesn't think we went to the moon either?

[66] Yeah.

[67] It's like, well, no, that's ridiculous.

[68] Of course we went to the moon.

[69] I was like, you know what?

[70] I'm glad you're defending all of these policies as an environmental lawyer.

[71] I think we're just going to have to let this one be by itself.

[72] So we talk about tacos.

[73] Well, but look, I say fuck that whole debate.

[74] It's irrelevant.

[75] Why would we be using a resource we know is finite?

[76] Why wouldn't our daily activity be figuring out which one is infinite?

[77] One of my favorite conversations that I had when I used to work in DC was with young evangelicals who didn't agree with the guy I was working for.

[78] on like any issue, but they believed that they were put on God's green earth to take care of it.

[79] And so whether they agreed with the science or not was irrelevant because they thought, why are we using finite resources for no reason?

[80] And dirty.

[81] It's polluting.

[82] Why don't we just be good about it?

[83] Let's have fucking solar everything and wind everything because it's just the wise, smart thing to do.

[84] There's the perfect.

[85] You know, it's like when you're fighting with a wife or something and you're fighting about the silverware drawer.

[86] That's not the issue generally.

[87] I see your point.

[88] I hope it's not.

[89] No, no. Tacos.

[90] We know you professionally is Cal Penn. Yeah.

[91] But that name is what we would call a stage name.

[92] But interestingly, it is also your whole name.

[93] How do I say your birth name?

[94] Calpin or Culpin.

[95] Calpin or Culpin.

[96] Culpin is like how you actually pronounce it.

[97] This is like Hassan Hussein.

[98] Yeah, exactly.

[99] Right?

[100] Yeah.

[101] It gives me anxiety to know that there are two acceptable pronunciations of a word.

[102] Like there's only Dax, to my knowledge.

[103] But, yeah, but what's the right comparison?

[104] I always get in trouble when I make the wrong comparison.

[105] So Galpin is a, it's a Gadrothi word, or I think Gadrathi, if not Sanskrit or Hindi, but it means the object of a dream or the person you dreamed about.

[106] Okay.

[107] So because it's not an English word, obviously we speak English as our first language, and so you're going to say Culpin turns into Kalpin.

[108] Sure.

[109] That's not wrong necessarily.

[110] I mean, it's not right, but it's not like, it's not wrong.

[111] It's more like saying that advertisement versus advertisement, one is right.

[112] Right or wrong.

[113] No, one is said in England and one is said here.

[114] Yeah.

[115] So I'm, I know, I know.

[116] Monica's like, well, the right way is the origin of where it's coming from.

[117] So I don't know where advertisement or advertisement started, but wherever it started is probably the correct way.

[118] I think, yeah, let me maybe be more clear.

[119] So Culpin is obviously the real pronunciation of my name.

[120] Culp in.

[121] Calpin is fine.

[122] Yeah, you feel fine about it.

[123] I feel fine about it.

[124] Yeah.

[125] But yeah, no, it's a, it's a screen name, a stage name.

[126] And.

[127] And when I first moved to L .A. in 1995 to go to UCLA.

[128] You went to UCLA, too.

[129] Brother, we both graduated in 2000.

[130] I don't think I've ever met anyone.

[131] We were there at the same time.

[132] I didn't know you.

[133] I didn't know you.

[134] You were 40 ,000 people.

[135] But you were sociology and film.

[136] Yes.

[137] And I was anthropology.

[138] Yeah.

[139] So I think we were on the same end of the campus, right?

[140] Yeah.

[141] And I maybe even had a sociology class.

[142] It's very likely we have crossed past numerous times.

[143] It's likely we had the same class at the same time.

[144] Yeah, that is possible.

[145] 400 -person lectures that we had.

[146] Yeah, what kind of student were you?

[147] Because I think we shared this, that I was here to be a comedian.

[148] I went to college to get my mom to pay my rent and to make her happy.

[149] So I didn't live on campus.

[150] I wasn't, like, fully immersed.

[151] I just was there learning, taking tests, and splitting.

[152] Were you having the college experience?

[153] Yes.

[154] So I moved from New Jersey to go to UCLA.

[155] So I moved out there when I was 18.

[156] I was in a triple in Reber, which was awful.

[157] I mean, I loved the dorms, but I was in a triple room, which meant it was, you know, the size of, I think originally crafted for one human and people living it with these weird bunk beds.

[158] But I loved it, man. I loved being at UCLA.

[159] I ultimately decided to go there because I knew I wanted to get into film and TV.

[160] I grew up in New Jersey right outside in New York City.

[161] And I loved theater, but I sort of thought, if I get into an L .A. school, then that's going to be my opportunity to go out there early.

[162] And I wanted to get an education.

[163] And I liked actually that UCLA had a diversity of your education experience.

[164] It was a huge school.

[165] You had all these experts teaching random classes, but if you wanted to do your own thing, you could and you could kind of pick and choose.

[166] I'm also a huge nerd.

[167] So I took, for example, I tried to take LS2, this pre -med life sciences class as an elective, and failed it and had to drop it.

[168] But I remember being in class and, you know, not understanding something the professor said and asking the kid next to me and they're like, don't look at my paper.

[169] I was like, oh, I'm a theater major, buddy.

[170] This is an elective.

[171] I'm not competing for med school with you.

[172] Yeah, yeah.

[173] But there was intense shit like that that I'm like, yo, this is like, as much as I'm here to be an actor, like, you guys are legit doctors.

[174] Yes.

[175] Doctors in training.

[176] Now, crazy side note unrelated, Monica and I watched this documentary on White Nationalists.

[177] And one of the things that came out to see what I'm going with this.

[178] I think you'll have the same shock I did, which is when I got to UCLA, I was like, okay, I think at the time it was like 42 % Asian, 39 % Caucasian.

[179] of just the most multicultural place I'd ever been in my life.

[180] So when we watched this White Nationals documentary, this guy started tracking people that had been at Charlottesville and then found them at other rallies and then found out who they were and kind of exposed their identity.

[181] One of them was a medical student at UCLA with a government clearance at a weapons manufacturing facility out here in California.

[182] And of all the things, of all the fairy tales I made up about my classmates while I was sitting in class, I would never have thought, there was a white nationalist there.

[183] It seems like, why would you go there?

[184] You know, you can choose everything.

[185] Yeah, you're coming to one of the most diverse schools in the planet, and you're a white nationalist.

[186] I was just like, oh, wow, I guess you really don't know anybody.

[187] Do you think he became a white nationalist after that experience because he had some bad interactions?

[188] Oh, he couldn't compete.

[189] I don't know.

[190] It's possible.

[191] Maybe he had the wrong triple room in rebirth.

[192] Yeah, you get the wrong two guys.

[193] might set you on a bad path.

[194] I remember, actually, so I was an RA my third year.

[195] I had a resident who came to me, and they teach you this in your RA training, and you kind of roll your eyes and go, this would never happen.

[196] There was this training scenario where what would you do if one of your residents comes to you and says, my roommate drew a swastika and left it on his desk?

[197] Oh.

[198] How old is this training?

[199] Yeah.

[200] I grew up in, you know, a suburb of New York City.

[201] It was a fairly diverse community.

[202] Middle school, you go to Bar Mitzvah, Bat Mitzv every weekend.

[203] Like, the idea that somebody would hold these views was so.

[204] so old to me. Yes.

[205] My third year when I was an R .A. I had a resident who came to me and he was very upset and he said my roommate left a swastika on his desk and I don't know what the hell.

[206] And I couldn't believe that.

[207] So, I mean, it is shocking, but when I think back, I'm like, wow, that happens.

[208] Is there any way this person was scribbling absentmindedly or this seems very, I'm out on a dangerous his limb.

[209] Well, when you started, I was going to make a joke about the old Sanskrit or Hindu symbol, the swastik.

[210] We've covered that.

[211] But then you kept going and I was like, oh, this is not a joking time.

[212] But no, that is what he meant by it.

[213] And it was a whole intervention.

[214] Yeah, what was done?

[215] I can't remember entirely.

[216] I think, you know, they obviously reassigned the room because it's one of those the racist kids' right to express himself is also something that's a thing.

[217] That needs to be consider.

[218] Yeah, of course.

[219] But also, I mean, come on.

[220] What do you?

[221] Right.

[222] That's not the kind of thing that you mediate on your own.

[223] When you're an R .A., you have to kick that up to your supervisor.

[224] But I remember telling my supervisor, I'm like, you know, I remember sometimes when when beef happens with my residence, like somebody using a word that the other person finds offensive.

[225] And I'll tell the kid who's using the offensive word.

[226] I'm like, you know, always they go, well, that's my right.

[227] I have a right to use that word.

[228] You can't tell me that I can't you.

[229] I'm like, dude, totally.

[230] You absolutely have a right to use that word.

[231] Do you have to be an asshole?

[232] Right.

[233] You have the right to be an asshole.

[234] Well, like, where did you grow up that you feel the need?

[235] Like, somebody is taking something away from you if you can't do that.

[236] You also have a right to shit on your dining room table every day.

[237] That is a right people in America have.

[238] That doesn't mean one should defend that right to shit on their dining room table.

[239] It's a slippery slope, dad.

[240] Well, it is.

[241] It is.

[242] UCLA, I just have to give this shout out because that's where you asked about the screen name that's where it sort of came together many a late night in the dorms like sitting in these stairwells and talking about nothing with people who then become your best friends I think it was my end of my second year and we were talking about you know I was trying to get auditions and I would every Wednesday I would go down to this newsstand on Galey Avenue and get backstage west oh yeah which is now I think only online right yeah probably yeah I always felt like I was participating in someone's murder plot when I was submitting to a lot of those.

[243] I've met people in one -bedroom apartments for roles.

[244] 100%.

[245] It was a different era.

[246] You roll up to an apartment, you're like, well, I guess this seems fine.

[247] This guy could be a producer director.

[248] Yeah.

[249] But, you know, you, and in those days, I'm going to seriously date myself here, but Kinko's was cheaper than the UCLA library to run off resumes.

[250] Oh, sure.

[251] So you'd have to physically run off copies of your resume.

[252] And staple for a couple hours.

[253] You're right.

[254] Because they were 10, not eight and a half by one.

[255] 11, staple them to your headshot, get the envelopes, then take them to the post office.

[256] And that shit costs money when you're 18, 19 years old.

[257] Yes.

[258] You save up a lot for those submissions every week.

[259] So I would do that.

[260] And these guys who are still my best friends, you know, they're like accounting majors or science majors.

[261] And somehow one night we started talking about screen names and they said, oh, you know, Whoopi Goldberg, her name is not Whoopi Goldberg.

[262] It's not.

[263] Right.

[264] And, you know, we looked it up on the internet, which we did have dial up.

[265] And, you know, Chevy Chase, his name is not Chevy Chase.

[266] You're after the road out here, right?

[267] There's something, right?

[268] There's the Chevy Chase Road that runs all through, like, Pasadena and then into Eagle Rock.

[269] And I think that's where he got the name.

[270] Same thing with Maryland, right?

[271] The Chevy Chase, Maryland is similar.

[272] Oh, okay.

[273] There was something about that.

[274] Anyway, they said, what about, you know, once you come up with a screen name?

[275] I was like, yeah, what do you guys think?

[276] That could be interesting.

[277] Maybe you get more auditions because they were like, Kelpin Modi is not a memorable name.

[278] You need something catchy.

[279] Well, that's one take on it, but yeah.

[280] There was also the, you know, typecasting.

[281] There was also, does my headshot look enough like me?

[282] There's a whole suitcase full of things that I think any actor, but then particularly if you don't look like everybody else, you kind of go crazy in your head about.

[283] And I was like, what do you guys think?

[284] They're like, what about Cal Pacino?

[285] That's pretty good Cal Pacino.

[286] Cal Ripon Jr. Jr., I was like, really?

[287] Okay, guys.

[288] But Calpin was always shortened to Cal like Joseph becomes.

[289] Joe and right and so we're like oh what if I just split my first name in half I was getting headshots done that same weekend so ran off the headshots with this screen name and obviously headshots are very expensive so once you have that set you wait until all thousand of them are gone yes six months later to get your new set printed and in that six months an agent happened to call and so I had the name on those headshots so that's what I ended up using yeah I'll add under there that do you remember when the technology came out.

[290] When you got your headshots printed, you could have the resume actually printed on the back.

[291] Yeah, but it's smeared, right?

[292] Well, it wasn't great.

[293] And then what was even worse is I would get a thousand to your point, because they'd bring that unit cost down a lot.

[294] First of all, my resume was all lies.

[295] It was 100 % lies.

[296] Always.

[297] And then I would actually do something, but I was too cheap to go get new headshots.

[298] So now I'm either in position, I wrote things in pan, which looks terrible.

[299] Or I've gone back to stapling the new updated resume, but underneath this and alter it.

[300] The whole thing was just so stressful, and I just hated that whole part of it.

[301] I got my sat card by lying.

[302] You did?

[303] I did.

[304] Oh, great.

[305] You know, the special skills section, just like anything you tried once at camp goes on that.

[306] Thousand percent.

[307] Yeah.

[308] So basketball was on there, and this agent, who, you know, after my second, third year, whatever, was willing to take me on, who by the way, Barbara Cameron is her name.

[309] Kirk and Camis.

[310] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are the same person!

[311] Wait, dude!

[312] Shut up!

[313] What?

[314] Shut up.

[315] My first agent was Barbara Barbara Cameron and I got fired by her and I kept the letter.

[316] What?

[317] I have in my files a fired letter from...

[318] Why did she fire you?

[319] She did not see any...

[320] Oh, my...

[321] What happened?

[322] She took a chance on me. I loved her.

[323] It needs to be pointed out to the listener.

[324] It's not like we both were at CAA or UTA.

[325] Barbara Cameron was primarily specializing in younger children actors because of her child.

[326] Kirk and Candace Cameron, yeah.

[327] And did you go to the week?

[328] weird house that was way to fuck up up against the mountain.

[329] The little house in the back in West Hills in the back of her actual house.

[330] Very far away.

[331] The office house.

[332] There was a drop box in the valley somewhere for you to pick up your scripts that Laura would bring up to.

[333] Yes, Laura.

[334] This is not possible.

[335] We should have met a thousand times.

[336] Yes.

[337] When I first went to read for her.

[338] I think I read for Laura.

[339] I read for both.

[340] Barbara was there.

[341] I remember driving to this West Hill's address, I had prepared a monologue from Henry V. Okay, perfect.

[342] Right?

[343] And now, for the listener, if you're moving to L .A. to be an actor, nobody will ever ask you to recite a Shakespearean monologue ever in your time.

[344] Those movies come by once every seven years.

[345] Don't worry about it.

[346] Not only that, there's no preparation.

[347] I had to read, like, some toilet paper commercial.

[348] Same.

[349] When I got there.

[350] But when I went to that house, I thought, after all of the years of the backstage West stuff and going to people's apartments, I pulled up to this house and it's so beautiful and quiet, and I was like, this is porn.

[351] This is how you get tricked into doing porn.

[352] Right.

[353] There is nobody.

[354] And then you walk in and see the full house and growing paints posters.

[355] I'm like, it's either fucking crazy porn or we're fine.

[356] And I think we're fine.

[357] Right.

[358] This is unbelievable.

[359] That's so crazy, man. My letter was, and again, it's going through my filter of having been very embarrassed by getting fired, terrified now, because that was the first agent I ever got.

[360] It took me years to get that one.

[361] But if I remember it correctly, it deeply implied that I wasn't putting the same energy into my career that they were putting into it or something along those lines.

[362] I think because I was stubborn about like getting digital headshots and paying for that.

[363] Like I was always a little reserved about all these things I was supposed to be buying on top of it.

[364] Yeah.

[365] At any rate, I was fired and I was much less evolved then and spiteful.

[366] And I saved the letter solely in case I ever made like $20 million on a movie.

[367] And it was in the headline.

[368] I was going to send that back to them.

[369] Yes.

[370] And I healed from all that.

[371] And I would never do that now.

[372] But alas, I still have it.

[373] I have a rejection letter from Abrams artists.

[374] Oh, sure.

[375] Where I had a friend who was rep by them, sent the headshot.

[376] And it was a rejection letter.

[377] And they called and said, we just want you to know, because you know, you're a friend of a client of ours that we think you're fantastic.

[378] We just don't think there's going to be any work for somebody who looks like.

[379] you and we just wanted to be honest about that.

[380] And I was appreciative at the time in the kind of self -loathing I don't know what I'm doing with my life way that you are.

[381] But I saved that letter for the same reason where I thought, one day when I work, I want to just take this letter out and look at it.

[382] And I was like, or I couldn't learn to move on and heal.

[383] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[384] But I still have the letter somewhere.

[385] You come to realize that it's a poison you're drinking, hoping to hurt the other person.

[386] I want to know before I frame this because I can imagine.

[387] one of either two scenarios.

[388] One is you're happy to talk about being first generation Indian and all the different ways that's affected your ride and journey here.

[389] Or I could imagine you being like, dude, I'm a funny actor.

[390] Let's just talk about me being a funny actor.

[391] I'm sick of talking about that component.

[392] The reason I'm very selfishly inclined for the former is that a half this podcast is first generation Indian.

[393] We talk about it all the time.

[394] Yes, true.

[395] There's just a ton of things that I think you being only two years younger than me and then nine years older than Monica, something.

[396] You know what I'm saying?

[397] Like the difference between when you entered and where we are at today, you actually lived through that whole thing firsthand.

[398] And I think there's a lot of interesting stuff about that.

[399] What is your overall opinion about having to always talk about that?

[400] Well, I mean, I think you hit the nail on.

[401] You guys are an exemption to my rule of because the latter is always trading for most actors.

[402] Like, man, come on.

[403] I just want to be funny.

[404] Just want to be funny.

[405] Then there's the more appropriate times and places where it actually fits into like the narrative of what you guys have been talking about in the past and some of the guests you've had on.

[406] So.

[407] Yes, I'm happy to.

[408] When I read about your story is Monica and I listen to this great episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast where they talked about the power of the token.

[409] Yeah.

[410] And it was really all about Sammy Davis Jr. And it was about like basically what he had to do to be the first one through the door.

[411] And what women who are the first ones through the door go through and what they're asked to do before it evolves.

[412] And then unfortunately people then end up getting judged, especially Sammy Davis, he gets then judged by a different era of how people were expected to act and it's just a little unfair and a little unfortunate because he was the first one in he was like the first one through am i saying am i i'm not articulating that entirely well because when we had hasan on he referenced harold and Kumar he said that for him was the first time it was like oh i can do that or it was like a light bulb for him so yeah you were definitely Definitely at the precipice of this whole shift.

[413] I think we've all had that, though.

[414] Like, for me, that person was, it was several people, but it was Mira Nyer when I was in eighth grade and Mississippi Missala came out, which is a movie she directed Denzel and Sarita Tchotheri in.

[415] And I remember seeing that as I was, you know, in eighth grade, went to the movies with my parents and a cousin.

[416] And it was the first time that I had seen people who looked like me who were, first of all, actual real humans, right?

[417] not a cartoon character voiced by somebody who was not actually South Asian American, nor somebody eating monkey brains in like an action movie.

[418] Or serving tea to Indiana Jones or something.

[419] Yeah, I'm talking about Temple of Doom.

[420] But when you don't see yourself is when you notice, right?

[421] Yeah.

[422] If you grow up seeing yourself, I think you sort of like don't necessarily feel what that is.

[423] So for me, it was that movie when I was sitting there in eighth grade going, wow, I already know that I love this.

[424] but maybe this is something that I can do.

[425] And then there were plenty of other people who had done it before, a J. Nidu, for example, in office space.

[426] So for me, it was all of them.

[427] So it's interesting that Husson's first time seeing something like that was Harold and Kumar.

[428] Yeah, that's crazy.

[429] Yeah.

[430] There's like steps along the way that would be different if you were replicating your whole thing today.

[431] So, like, even the name.

[432] So they were being generous and saying it was a hard name to.

[433] remember or something.

[434] Or it wasn't a significant name.

[435] Oh, you're talking.

[436] My real name first.

[437] Just initially.

[438] Yeah.

[439] Well, I mean, it was a bunch of things at once, right?

[440] So there obviously was the aspect of my headshot is what I look like.

[441] Yes.

[442] Yes.

[443] And my name is what it is.

[444] It's my birth name.

[445] And anything that you can do to get in the room, this is sort of universal for any actor.

[446] You're going to do it.

[447] Right down to the lying in the special skills section.

[448] I'll do it a sag story later.

[449] So one aspect of that to me was the name.

[450] Yeah.

[451] I definitely think part of it was whether having a less ethnic sounding name would work quote unquote or not but it was also the new headshots it was also to my college friends at least I don't think for them it was entirely an ethnic conversation it was also a Cal Penn just sounds catchy Whoopi Goldberg I forget her real name but like it's such a it's such a Roman can you look up Karen Johnson Karen Johnson Does not have the same It doesn't have the same thing to it right So to them it was that, right?

[452] So it was all those different factors.

[453] But yes, of course, part of it was whether Cal Penn sounded more palatable to the casting director or an agent.

[454] And in the case of Barbara, the name had nothing to do with why she brought me in or so I was told.

[455] And I believe her.

[456] She was sweet and honest.

[457] Until she fired me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[458] So she questioned my work ethic.

[459] I do want to know what you lied about to get into SAG.

[460] Basketball.

[461] Also, I put basketball under special skills, and Laura called one day and said, Hey, honey, I have an audition for you for a Nike commercial.

[462] And I had just taken, tell me if he took his class, Joshua Moldavin.

[463] It was a geography class, but it was sociocultural geography.

[464] And now he's at Swarthmore, I think.

[465] He was like a cool young professor who used to sweat on his students.

[466] So, like, if you were sleeping in class, he didn't stand over you until a drop of sweat, hit your notebook, and woke you up.

[467] It was gross, but he was awesome.

[468] Yeah, and deniable in court.

[469] You know what I'm saying?

[470] It's like also a genius way to do corporal punishment.

[471] It's like, I was sweating, you know, some got on him.

[472] I had just taken a class of his where he talked about how Nike was manufacturing shoes in China.

[473] And he, because he was this attractive white dude in the suit, he would talk about how, you know, he would go to inspect some of these plants.

[474] And people would say, oh, you're an academic and you're this good -looking white dude.

[475] And they would give, in his words, they would give him all this access.

[476] And all these managers would joke with him about.

[477] how many people lost their hands in these Nike machines making people's shoes.

[478] So he would share these stories with us.

[479] So when Laura called about this Nike commercial I was like, really, you got to call this week.

[480] And I was like, well, obviously I'm not going to say no because I need the job.

[481] And I'm obviously not going to change anything by not going to this audition.

[482] She goes, but honey, I just want to know, so you play basketball, right?

[483] I'm like, yeah, of course.

[484] Yeah.

[485] Cannot, just for everybody to know, I cannot play basketball.

[486] I love it.

[487] Sure.

[488] Love shooting baskets.

[489] I terrible.

[490] So she sends me the information, and it's the second floor of some casting office in Santa Monica, and they go, hey, so listen, the accounting firm downstairs complained.

[491] We've been dribbling basketballs all morning.

[492] The audition has two components.

[493] You're all dribbling and you're talking trash.

[494] So we just want to make sure before you go, and it was one of those group auditions, want to make sure that everybody can actually play, right?

[495] And all these dudes are like, yeah, of course, why wouldn't I?

[496] And, you know, Cal?

[497] I'm like, yeah, yeah.

[498] course.

[499] Absolutely.

[500] And I'm like, oh, God, okay, so this is like a real basketball commercial.

[501] We go up the stairs, we're shown the basketballs and told, please don't touch them.

[502] Pretend you're dribbling.

[503] I can talk trash.

[504] I can improv.

[505] And space work some basketball skills.

[506] I owned this audition.

[507] I talked the most vicious.

[508] I'm from New Jersey.

[509] I talk the most vicious trash to this group of people.

[510] I just want you to know, I 100 % auditioned for this commercial.

[511] Did you?

[512] Yeah.

[513] Yeah.

[514] It was.

[515] I did.

[516] When you started describing, I was like, yep, and I remember the whole no bouncing the basketball.

[517] Were you guys in the same group?

[518] Are you going to go in that?

[519] Very possible.

[520] It was, this commercial exists on YouTube.

[521] It was the 1998 NBA lockout commercial with Samuel Jackson.

[522] That's a great commercial.

[523] It's a great commercial.

[524] So she called and she's like, so you booked the job.

[525] You're getting your sag cards.

[526] Like, okay, this is awesome.

[527] I show up on set and it's Samuel Jackson's there.

[528] These other guys who can play basketball are there.

[529] all these Nike execs in suits and like awesome high top Nike sneakers of course all I thought about was that professor and how many people's hands had been cut off making shoes and then we start rehearsing and they're like shoot a basket and it goes on the roof of this house we're like playing basketball in somebody's front yard on the on the driveway and they all look at each other and they're like all right let's take five oh boy and somebody comes up to me and says you really you really can't play and i'm like uh i mean this is how i play i think i'm a little nervous and they decided to make the spot about how bad these guys are at playing best oh my god they had to completely one -eight by the way funnier if you guys are all talking trash and you're terrible they the reason the way they got away with it was by saying shoot the basket but cover your eyes so it looks like you missed it for a reason because you couldn't even see oh this is getting very complicated now very wearing a brown hat You can't see my face because I'm covering my eyes.

[530] You see the other two guys.

[531] And then Sam Jackson says something like, three guys playing horses.

[532] Fantastic.

[533] Got my sag card, got away with it.

[534] I think this is the first time I've publicly told this story.

[535] The thing that I remember doing was trying to, I was such a nerd.

[536] I wrote down the, you know, $500 or whatever you get for doing a commercial.

[537] And I thought, when I, like, have money that I can donate, I want to donate it to somebody that Joshua Maldavin says that I should donate it to for those sneakers.

[538] But I know you're laughing at me. I still don't wear Nike's because of that class.

[539] Really?

[540] Yeah.

[541] And I don't know their labor policy now.

[542] I would like to think it's evolved, but who knows?

[543] Yeah.

[544] I'm choosing to assume it's gotten much better because I wear a lot.

[545] Because the world has gotten better.

[546] And they have great, seemingly great, like, practices now that they promote on their commercials about women.

[547] I'll look at them.

[548] They got behind Cabernack.

[549] Yeah, yeah.

[550] Growing up, mom was, she was a perfume kind of inspector or some.

[551] She worked at some perfume factory.

[552] There's a big pocket of them in New Jersey, right?

[553] Yeah, New Jersey and New York.

[554] So she got her master's in chemistry and got this amazing job.

[555] She would sit in a room that has no smell.

[556] Like a neutral room.

[557] Yeah, carbon neutral, whatever they call a room.

[558] They would give her little samples of these thousands of gallons of perfume that they manufactured.

[559] She would smell them against the control sample that she would also smell and write down the chemical formula and whether it was off or not.

[560] Oh my goodness.

[561] And she could do that.

[562] Her nose is that.

[563] So the human nose is apparently still more sensitive than any computer that we can make.

[564] And women have way better sense of smell than men.

[565] That might explain why men fart more than women in public.

[566] You know, I don't know.

[567] You could never get a fart past my mom.

[568] No, she would immediately know what you ate in the chemical composition.

[569] I'm not kidding.

[570] You would fart and she would go H2S.

[571] I was like, thanks, Mom.

[572] But you know, when I read that about her, I went straight to, did you ever read Fast Food Nation?

[573] Yeah.

[574] Remember, the guy writing the book goes to one of these perfume factories, which is where they also make the food additives.

[575] And they make French fries taste like French fries.

[576] And the guy's sitting in a room and they just hold a test strip under his nose.

[577] And not only does he smell beef, he smells beef cooking on a hot grill.

[578] Like, it's more than just the meat smell.

[579] It's the smell of meat cooking.

[580] And that's added to a hamburger at a fast food restaurant.

[581] And I was like, this is an Oreo.

[582] Like, they held it like an Oreo.

[583] He couldn't say the exact products, but he said enough.

[584] They held the Oreo test strip under his nose and he's like tasting an Oreo.

[585] Wow.

[586] And I've always been so furious they have not infused that Oreo sent into broccoli.

[587] Like, I would love it if they could get a broccoli to taste like an Oreo.

[588] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[589] We've all been there.

[590] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[591] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[592] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[593] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[594] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[595] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[596] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[597] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[598] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon music.

[599] What's up, guys?

[600] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[601] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[602] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[603] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[604] And I don't mean just friends.

[605] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[606] The list goes on.

[607] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[608] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[609] But that, like, she, would have all these crazy stories.

[610] And I remember just the idea of these companies investing in the psychology of how something makes you feel or a McDonald's product, for example, the marketing that goes into a happy meal and how that's like a lifelong consumer that they're trying to build into.

[611] I feel like, okay, here's a hot button.

[612] Oh, let's go.

[613] Roll it my sleeve.

[614] How much, based on taste alone, only taste.

[615] Okay.

[616] How much do you think a Big Mac should cost?

[617] Based on taste.

[618] Okay.

[619] I think $7.

[620] Monty.

[621] I think six.

[622] Okay.

[623] Yeah.

[624] All right.

[625] I think it should cost $55.

[626] Oh, wow.

[627] It is, I don't eat, I don't eat me. Look, I don't eat meat.

[628] You let us right to the trough.

[629] So, but I've been a vegetarian for a while now.

[630] I'm the times where I've cheated.

[631] Didn't I have cheated?

[632] We must.

[633] That sandwich that, you know, tens of millions of research dollars have gone into for Dax, exactly what you just described.

[634] These tastes and these, they're all fake.

[635] The flavor profiles.

[636] None of them are real.

[637] It's a manufactured thing you're eating.

[638] Yeah.

[639] It's worth those hundreds and millions of dollars.

[640] And taste -wise, I feel like that tastes way better than anything at any fancy $12 burger.

[641] Couldn't agree more.

[642] $5.

[643] You know what a question that would have been more of a bull's eye for her is ask her what she thinks the value of Burger King Rectangled Chicken Sandwiches.

[644] Oh.

[645] What's the, because we're lighting up there.

[646] You're lighting up.

[647] What is the value, Monica?

[648] I would say, taste alone, $20.

[649] Yeah, because you've got to put it in the Houston's chicken sandwich category of, like, fulfillment.

[650] Which is like, I don't know, it's between 15 and 20.

[651] Houston's is like $75.

[652] It's not, Houston's that is not.

[653] We're not saying that.

[654] $20 is it?

[655] Yeah.

[656] Do you like it?

[657] 18.

[658] I haven't had the burger you want it.

[659] What's the difference between that and like the Wendy's spicy chicken sandwich?

[660] It's a thinner.

[661] Nothing about what it's good.

[662] Nothing about what I bet is.

[663] First of all, it's a perfect rectangle.

[664] Doesn't even resemble a chicken breast.

[665] Perfect rectangle thin chicken.

[666] And then you put a lot of mayonnaise and ketchup on that.

[667] A little bit of lettuce.

[668] We got one recently.

[669] Lettuce was.

[670] It didn't travel well.

[671] It was not so fresh.

[672] Sesame bun.

[673] I don't know.

[674] What can I say?

[675] It all comes together in a great, great product.

[676] Well, I'll add that the batter ratio with the meat, because it's so thin, it's quite high.

[677] It's like a one to five.

[678] Whereas we're Wendy's one, it's more than like the one to 12.

[679] Because it's a thick piece of chicken breast.

[680] This has been ground up, put into a pattern.

[681] Yeah, yeah.

[682] Yeah.

[683] The molecular integrity is destroyed.

[684] I had an impossible whopper yesterday.

[685] Wait, they make impossible wopper?

[686] I just started, and I have some friends who work for Impossible, and I've worked with them before, and I was like, I'm super psyched that you're actually in, like, a mainstream, every Burger King in America.

[687] I'm going to go try this.

[688] And my buddy was texting me, he's like, they're getting the consistency right because they cook them in each Burger King.

[689] What did you think?

[690] Did you get it with cheese?

[691] Get it with cheese because the fat helps make it taste like a real whopper.

[692] I'm like, dude, I didn't get it with cheese, and I was blown away.

[693] Oh, wow.

[694] Yeah.

[695] Like, I want to do a side by side.

[696] I want to cheat one day and do it side by side.

[697] Yeah.

[698] I'm already an impossible fan, but I was like, damn.

[699] Next time you cheat, I want you to go to Emily's in Brooklyn.

[700] That's the best burger in America.

[701] Okay.

[702] And you're going to price that at $500.

[703] Oh, man, really?

[704] If a $55 Big Mac, would you agree?

[705] Yeah, well, the story we've told on here is Monica and I went there.

[706] We had heard it was a great burger.

[707] I want to say it was $27 on the menu.

[708] And when we ordered them, I was like, this is a joke.

[709] This is fucking highway robbery, hipster bullshit, blah, blah, blah, took one bite.

[710] And I said, this is vastly underpriced.

[711] Like, I would 100 % spend $50 on that hamburger.

[712] What makes it, since you described the Burger King Chicken Sewer so beautifully, what makes it worth $500?

[713] It's very, it tastes a little bit like French onion soup has been placed on there.

[714] Like, there's a lot of caramelized onions and it's like wet.

[715] It is cheesy.

[716] Oh, it is.

[717] I mean, I think about it three.

[718] times a week.

[719] Wow.

[720] Yeah.

[721] Yeah.

[722] There's this orange fucking sauce over the caramelized onions.

[723] The bottom of the Oh, the pretzel bun is the best pretzel bun I've ever had.

[724] Okay.

[725] And then it's just damp.

[726] And I was saying to Monica, the next time we did it, I'm going to get two of them in a bowl because I don't want to lose a bit of that grease and everything that came up.

[727] Oh my God.

[728] So that's your cheat.

[729] That's your next cheat.

[730] Okay.

[731] We've wasted a lot of your exciting story on this burger thing.

[732] And now dad, and you share this in common with Monica, Dad is an engineer.

[733] Oh, what kind?

[734] Mechanical?

[735] Okay.

[736] I only vaguely know as well.

[737] Structural.

[738] My dad's a structural engineer.

[739] Yeah, he's a structural engineer.

[740] When did he move to the U .S.?

[741] When did your parents come here?

[742] He came in his 20s.

[743] And then my mom came when she was six.

[744] But what years?

[745] Oh.

[746] Oh, your mom came when she was six?

[747] Yeah.

[748] Oh, wow.

[749] Cool.

[750] Yeah, so she grew up in Savannah.

[751] Okay.

[752] Your dad seems to have come around in the mid -80s, yeah?

[753] Before that, I think, probably late the 70s.

[754] I don't know.

[755] Why did your mom's parents come?

[756] Because my grandfather, he's a professor, and he came to get his Ph .D. In the 60s?

[757] Must have been.

[758] And her father came because he had killed somebody and had to evade the law.

[759] No, same with my dad.

[760] Yeah, yeah.

[761] It's a copay of the store.

[762] Yeah, no, we invaded for a reason.

[763] The reason I was asking is I'm always super interested in this huge influx of Asian immigrants overall, but South Asian immigrants in particular that came post -1965.

[764] So I'm probably getting the wording wrong as I'm remembering all this.

[765] but the Asian Exclusion Act basically, like, prevented people from Asian countries from coming.

[766] Okay.

[767] In the mid -60s, it was repealed, and people were allowed in because we had a shortage in the U .S. of doctors, engineers, and a couple of other professions.

[768] So my dad could come here because he had gotten into an engineering grad program outside of New York City.

[769] And that's a common story from a lot of my peers' parents' generation, where they were allowed to come for that reason.

[770] Well, Ashok was just telling us this last night.

[771] So he came in that same manner where you had a skill that was desired by the U .S. and you were led in.

[772] He said, but also what happened was there was a huge influx of the Indians that had been living in Uganda.

[773] And those folks came in a much different thing where they generally had money.

[774] And you could also come in if you could invest a certain amount in the country right when you arrived.

[775] So then there was this other influx of people.

[776] And her dad was saying last night that for a while, the professionals that had come kind of looked down on that group.

[777] But then it turned out those stores they bought, the convenience.

[778] stores, the small motel chains, all this stuff that after a while he was like, you know, they're kind of crushing now.

[779] And he was just saying how that was kind of a transition that happened with the different groups that came in for different reasons.

[780] Yeah.

[781] And then there's like the post 80 or post 85 wave of immigrants that came under family reunification that tended to be more working class also.

[782] Uh -huh.

[783] I just, I think it's so interesting.

[784] It really is.

[785] Monica, I'll let you tell your version, but, you know, in general, Monica was mostly around all.

[786] white kids.

[787] And she was like, I'm going to be white.

[788] That's my lane.

[789] I'm going to do it.

[790] Yeah.

[791] I was very anti being Indian.

[792] And I was avoiding anything that made it seem like I was.

[793] Yeah.

[794] So I was really trying to be as white, just fit in, be like everybody else.

[795] And then when you were seven.

[796] I mean from Georgia.

[797] When you were 17, what happened?

[798] Something happened when you were 17.

[799] When I was 17.

[800] This movie came out, Harold and Kumar.

[801] Oh.

[802] Was I 17?

[803] Yeah, 2004.

[804] It wasn't Harold and Kumar for me. It was, bend it like Beck.

[805] Oh, yeah.

[806] And this is a horrible thing.

[807] But I was like, ah, I don't like that.

[808] I was the opposite of normal people.

[809] And I was like, I don't like that there's Indian people on screen.

[810] Why can't they just be doctors?

[811] Exactly.

[812] Those brown people shouldn't be on screen because that's going to call out that I am, it's going to make it very clear that it's going to put it in the zeitgeist.

[813] Being Indian, it's going to just put it in the zeitgeist.

[814] And then I won't be able to avoid that.

[815] Can I ask the 17 -year -old you something?

[816] Sure.

[817] So was the issue that it was an identity film?

[818] Like, would you have felt the same way if Growing Pains had a neighbor named Seema?

[819] No, no, no. I think I think it was because that was part of the story.

[820] Yeah, okay.

[821] It was part of the narrative that she was Indian.

[822] Because I still want to, I want to, I want to, to be an actress by then.

[823] So I was not like, it was cool if like the neighbor was, I mean, I guess I wished it was an Indian girl neighbor named Michelle, though.

[824] Oh, interesting.

[825] Like, I didn't even want that.

[826] Yeah.

[827] Okay.

[828] Yeah.

[829] No, I remind me to tell you a story about the characters in my new show are named a certain way for a reason.

[830] Oh, okay.

[831] Interesting.

[832] Yeah.

[833] So that was what it was.

[834] I just like did not like that these things were getting exposed.

[835] It was blowing my cover in a way.

[836] Okay.

[837] Which is a lunacy.

[838] I mean, it's crazy.

[839] Well, no, it's your, exact feelings in your story and there's no right or wrong.

[840] Because this has become something that I do want to talk to you about because you've had moments in your life like 24 as an example.

[841] Yeah.

[842] Tell me about the conflict of 24.

[843] So I actually like 24.

[844] There's an article, I think it's New York magazine or something that I did this interview and I, if I remember correctly, it was like a little snippet that the journalist took.

[845] It was part of a larger conversation where they asked me about racial profiling.

[846] The thing that keeps reemerging that people keep asking about is, oh, I read that you didn't like the role that you accepted on 24 because of racial profiling.

[847] I was like, not at all.

[848] I had this four -episode arc on 24 where I played an American -born kid who was radicalized and becomes a terrorist, takes a family hostage.

[849] So for four episodes, I'm holding a gun to this family.

[850] And, you know, two things that terrify me, terrorists and guns.

[851] Sure.

[852] Yeah.

[853] But I remember, you know, booking that job, the time I booked that job, we did not have American -born radicalized terror from people who looked like me. Right.

[854] We had them from the Columbines of the world and from, you know, the sort of white supremacist's side of things, but we had yet to experience brown folks who had been radicalized in that manner.

[855] But the UK had experienced that before that arc was written.

[856] So I remember doing a ton of online research and like Googling stuff about who these guys were in the UK and what these chat rooms are like.

[857] And after like three days of doing this, I called my manager and I was like, I'm about to email you a full list of links from my web history, just because I would like there to be a digital trail of why I went on all these websites.

[858] Oh, smart.

[859] Because I started worrying, like, what am I doing?

[860] This is like, I'm doing this research, but it's like I said there were a red flag on your keyboard and you just kept hitting it over and over.

[861] Yeah.

[862] So the nuance that I think was cut out of interviews like this was about that journey and how unfortunately now we are dealing with things.

[863] things like that.

[864] Yeah.

[865] At the time we weren't.

[866] And so it was an interesting thing where just as an actor, you know, you mentioned identity conversations versus I just want to be fun or I just want to be an actor.

[867] Yeah.

[868] So in that sense, it's sort of like, well, what's my role here?

[869] You can look back and say, oh, that was a stereotype.

[870] At the time, we didn't have homegrown radicalization that looked like me. Right.

[871] Well, because the thing I've always been really sympathetic to, generally I've always thought of it with black actors is that a it's already harder for them to succeed yeah it's much harder everything stacked against them and then should they somehow overcome all that i feel like there is an inherent obligation to now represent the black community and be involved and always evaluate anything you do is reflecting on the broader black community all the time and i have always just thought that is just a double unfair now do i respect people who take on that role do i think they're heroes absolutely there's that great episode of master of none where they kind of go into whether or not they should do the accent yeah and aziz has one opinion and his friend has another opinion and i just feel like what a drag that as you said there were a couple people you saw of day say uh descent on tv and you're going to be lucky enough to be one of them but now you've got to evaluate the entire implications of that seems like a lot to put on a 23 -year -old hungry actor it's also super fluid right you're by the way that that episode of best or none reads like a documentary to me like oh really oh yeah tons of stories with casting directors and um and it's funny that people ask about the 24 episode a lot because that was one of those where i'm like just psyched to play a character who's such an abysmal human being like you know this because you the comedy space is sort of our thing like you're playing a likable nice guy so often like give me an asshole yeah i want to play a despicable human being yeah but so that conversation about like whether to do an accent with i remember barbara was actually very helpful to me the first movie i did i did this movie van wilder with ryan rey right first movie i did a couple years after college so you know andrew panay yeah he's one of my best friends yeah no way i said hi okay i had a blast making that movie mm -hmm laura cameron's assistant called me. I love that we, this is like, this already, we're in an attic.

[872] I feel like we're friends.

[873] But then this added element is like UCLA and are the same agent.

[874] Well, we both found out we were married to Kristen Bell.

[875] I feel like we're one step away from that.

[876] Hi, honey.

[877] So Laura called me and said, hey, I've got this amazing audition for you.

[878] I'm so excited.

[879] It's the supporting lead in a movie.

[880] You have to come to the office.

[881] I need to talk to you about the script.

[882] And, you know, this office in traffic from Westwood is like a two -hour scenario each way.

[883] So I said, why don't you just leave it at the drop box and I'll come pick it up tonight?

[884] Tell me what the character is that I'm reading for.

[885] Just email me some of the sides and she goes, no, no, I want to talk to you about it.

[886] I'm so excited.

[887] It is a supporting lead in a teen comedy.

[888] It's like, now I'm excited.

[889] Send me some of the sides.

[890] What's the name of the characters?

[891] Just please, just come in, just come in.

[892] This went back and forth and I was like, I promise you I will come in.

[893] Just tell me the name of the character and send me some sides.

[894] She goes, Okay, the name of the character is Taj Mahal.

[895] Uh -oh.

[896] And I hung up on her.

[897] Yeah.

[898] And she called me back and she goes, honey, I figured you might do that.

[899] I'm like, yeah, look.

[900] I didn't study theater nor move out here to go to UCLA to play a guy named Taj Mahal.

[901] Thank you so much for the opportunity.

[902] Not going to happen.

[903] And she said, I really need you to understand that this is a big deal.

[904] This is a supporting lead in a studio comedy with Ryan.

[905] Ryan Reynolds, who's on two guys, a girl in a pizza place.

[906] Will one day be Deadpool?

[907] With one day.

[908] And Tara Reid, who's in American Pie.

[909] And you need to audition for this movie because if you get it, then I'll be able to pitch you for a different caliber of projects that I currently cannot pitch you for because you don't have those credits on your resume.

[910] Yeah.

[911] And she said, please just read the script.

[912] So I read the script.

[913] And yes, it was phenomenally stereotypical.

[914] I'm playing a guy named Taj Mahal who had a. You know, sort of exaggerated accent and he's lusting after white girls who he couldn't get.

[915] And like sort of every stereotype in the book.

[916] Also, interestingly, every stereotype of just being an 18 -year -old male.

[917] So, like, over -sexed, can't think, thinks with his dick, like every stereotype of that, right?

[918] Yeah.

[919] Then I start realizing that the plot doesn't advance absent this character.

[920] Uh -huh.

[921] So this question, this goes back to sort of the accent conversation, we oftentimes think it's kind of reductionist, but we say, oh, I'm not going to play a cab driver.

[922] I don't want to play a store clerk.

[923] Right.

[924] Well, then you get into this weird territory of, are we just saying that because they're working class jobs?

[925] Or do you actually mean that there's something one dimensional about the portrayal, the historic portrayal of these roles?

[926] Or that they don't advance the plot of the film or the character doesn't have an arc. There's nothing for them to do.

[927] Right.

[928] So I called Laura back and we had this conversation with her and with Barbara about like, well, this is really interesting because I remember it being less about me being personally offended at these stereotypes.

[929] Right.

[930] And more about me feeling incredibly bored by them.

[931] Sure.

[932] Right.

[933] And like there wasn't a ton of comedy for you to do.

[934] Exactly.

[935] Yeah.

[936] Like it was lazy comedy.

[937] Yes.

[938] That's interesting.

[939] Yeah.

[940] You could have been more offended by just the cheapness of the joke as opposed to the racial implications.

[941] Exactly right.

[942] And it was both.

[943] And I remember calling one of the casting execs.

[944] I think she was a VP at NBC.

[945] This is 20 years ago now.

[946] This woman named Sonia Nicor.

[947] She happened to be Indian American and happened to be in the casting department at NBC.

[948] And I had had a general media.

[949] with her a few years prior and she said you know if you ever have any questions feel free to give me a call and i thought i am very conscious that you know to your point about african -american actors you're always being told you have to choose something based on an entire group of people and i thought maybe she would have some insight into this this role and so i called her and i said there's a script and i told her everything that the character's name's taj mahal she hung up you called back right she goes well so look barbara is absolutely right with everything she said business -wise if you get a role like this, 100 % she can pitch you for things that she just can't get you in the room for right now.

[950] Pilots.

[951] And it's no secret that any woman and any performer of color has to have 10 times more credits on their resume just to get the door.

[952] So yes, she's being honest with you about that.

[953] How many things in the script offended you or did you find cringe -worthy?

[954] I was like, I don't know, like 30?

[955] And she does, okay.

[956] It's a rough number to start with.

[957] She's like, and was anything in the script actually funny?

[958] And I was like, oh, yeah.

[959] Like, there's a ton of stuff.

[960] Like, this dude's back gets lit on fire and he's like trying to bone this woman and like she's super into him but he screws it up but it like goes beyond it's very animal house -esque in that regard it's okay so so like that part of it excites you it's like oh yeah like if his name was phil and he was from Des Moines and I could go out for this I'd be super excited yeah so she goes okay here's what you do pick 10 of the 30 things and if you get that part sit down with the writers and the director and talk to them about those 10 things but in order to do that you have to come up with 10 things that are funnier than what the writers came up.

[961] You got to replace it.

[962] Yeah, yeah.

[963] You got to top it.

[964] And that was the first time that anybody told me that I had any agency in these conversations at all.

[965] Right.

[966] Because up until that point, it was just a fight about, I don't want to do this accent.

[967] You have to do the accent.

[968] You know, the horrible experience on Sabrina, the teenage witch, I remember.

[969] Uh -huh.

[970] They were so mean and so like, you're doing that accent.

[971] That's what we hired you to do.

[972] Oh, my God, but I love your show.

[973] It didn't matter.

[974] So, went through the audition process.

[975] The last audition, I remember, I walk into the waiting room.

[976] I knew it was me and another guy.

[977] I was like, all right.

[978] I wonder if this dude's got the same feelings as I do.

[979] If, like, does he have a stage name?

[980] Like, what's his deal?

[981] Does he feel comfortable with all this?

[982] And I walk into the waiting room, and it was a white dude in brown face.

[983] Oh, no. Oh, boy.

[984] Was it me?

[985] It was not you.

[986] But I was not shocked.

[987] Oh, wow.

[988] Because I had seen it a ton in auditions before that.

[989] And I had, and I've seen it a ton since that, right?

[990] Again, not to interrupt your flow, but I just, when I say that you were a part of a different error, this is really, minimally that's not happening today.

[991] I have never seen that.

[992] The last time I have seen it happen was just over a decade ago, slightly over a decade ago, where I saw it on a show I was working on.

[993] Okay, which is five minutes ago.

[994] Yeah, in life.

[995] So the reason I say that is we like to think these things are leaps and bounds separated from.

[996] But even look, even some of our friends have done them on parcels or fonts or like, there are screws.

[997] Can I just admit that embarrassingly in 2003 when we filmed it, which came out in 2004, there's a scene without a paddle where someone's got a laser scope and then I get up and they're like, you have a dot on your forehead.

[998] And I immediately do an Indian accent in the script and I did it.

[999] I thought that was, I was proud of myself that I thought I did a good version of that accent.

[1000] Yes.

[1001] Because I had heard it on the Simpsons.

[1002] Totally.

[1003] Obviously, I wouldn't do that today.

[1004] Obviously, now I'm embarrassed that that happened.

[1005] But it happened.

[1006] I was 28 and fuck, I did it.

[1007] And that was my first movie and I would have shit in my hands and eat it on camera if they would let me stay.

[1008] 100%.

[1009] So you're, you are perfectly teeing up what I was about to say, which was my beef was not with the guy in the waiting room.

[1010] Oh, okay.

[1011] Your beef is never with the other actor, at least this is what I believe.

[1012] I was mostly fascinated.

[1013] Did this brother do it at home?

[1014] Did he drive to the audition with Brownface?

[1015] If so, did he get pulled over three times?

[1016] Did he do it in the bathroom?

[1017] Did he come early?

[1018] Did he go to all of the three casting sessions before in Brownface?

[1019] Did his agent tell him to do it?

[1020] Did he come up with the idea, right?

[1021] So we're just having a conversation.

[1022] What's he even using?

[1023] Is that standard makeup?

[1024] Someone's to learn.

[1025] Really nice guy.

[1026] But I told myself when I saw that, that he was not allowed to get that part.

[1027] Right.

[1028] So any of the conversations that I had with myself about the 30 things or the conversation with Sony about the 10 funny things that I could come up with or feeling like I hate that I need to have those conversations at all because I just want to be funny.

[1029] All went out the window when I saw this dude in brown face.

[1030] I was like, nope, you are not allowed to have this part.

[1031] Right.

[1032] And so I'm like, I am going to do whatever I have to do to get this part.

[1033] You don't get that credit on your resume.

[1034] I want that credit on my resume.

[1035] I want to audition for pilots next year because I did this movie, right?

[1036] And in the audition, like, Ryan is an incredibly funny guy.

[1037] Oh, yeah.

[1038] Andrew was awesome.

[1039] The director, Walt Becker, was really fun.

[1040] It was a great improvisational room where we had fun.

[1041] And look, I think for a younger generation of performers of color who are listening to this, they are cringing and rolling the ride going, you are such an old man, apologist for a movie like that.

[1042] And I get it.

[1043] Yeah, sure.

[1044] I get the luxury of that position.

[1045] Yes.

[1046] And I am not going to fight you on it.

[1047] Yes.

[1048] But I'm sharing my experience, which was at that time, this is something that was a real thing that you need a credit on your resume to get work, right?

[1049] So when Harold and Camargo to White Castle came around, I was at a birthday party for a mutual friend.

[1050] John Hurwitz and Hayden Schlossberg are the two guys who created the franchise and wrote all three movies and are hilarious.

[1051] A mutual friend introduced us and John Hurwitz came up to me and said, whoa, you don't have an Indian accent.

[1052] And it was the most off -putting thing, right?

[1053] You got a buddy's birthday party in L .L. some douchebag is like oh you don't have an Indian accent I remember saying something like well you do sound like an asshole something yeah and he's like no no no what I meant was you're so hilarious in Van Wilder I'm a screenwriter I wrote this movie called Harold and Camargo to White Castle but one of the leads is this kid from New Jersey he doesn't have an accent but he's Indian and I was like I'm from New Jersey what's this movie yeah yeah yeah he was you're from New Jersey I'm from New Jersey sends me this script and I called him and by the way it was the funniest I still stand by the funniest thing I had read I tend to not laugh out loud when I read things.

[1054] I laughed out loud, called him immediately, and I said, dude, this script is amazing.

[1055] You're never going to sell it in L .A. And when you don't sell it, please call me. I would love to help find how we can raise the money.

[1056] Right.

[1057] You know, calling rich people from the, like rich doctors my dad knows or something.

[1058] I want to raise the money.

[1059] I want to play this part.

[1060] And he goes, I don't know what you're talking about, but we're selling this movie to a studio.

[1061] And I said, yeah, but they're going to, you know, I have friends who had written movies with Asian American leads.

[1062] And they were told by studios, we'll buy it if you change the ethnicity of the leads.

[1063] Right.

[1064] Any white ethnicity, right?

[1065] Sure.

[1066] And they said no, and the movies either didn't get made or were financed independently.

[1067] And John Hurwitz said, well, I don't know about all that.

[1068] I can tell you that I'm going to sell a script called Harold and Camargo to White Castle.

[1069] I am not making a movie called David and Jason go to McDonald's.

[1070] And that's all that is to it.

[1071] And a week later, he called me, Senator, which I forget what it's called now.

[1072] But a company called Senator had sold it, New Line, and Warner Brothers had picked it up.

[1073] So it was a negative pickup, and he said, now this audition process starts.

[1074] And they read people in New York, L .A., London, you know, Vancouver, and it kept getting whittled down.

[1075] And I, as you guys know, there's no shortage of actors to play these parts, right?

[1076] Right.

[1077] The issue is always there's a lack of opportunity.

[1078] Your beef is never with other actors.

[1079] There's plenty of talent.

[1080] So finally, it keeps getting whittled down.

[1081] And my view is that I got this part ultimately.

[1082] I'm proud of the audition I gave but I was the only guy who went in who had a supporting lead in a studio movie before because I found Van Wilder.

[1083] They knew you, yes.

[1084] You had proven they could put it on your shoulders.

[1085] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[1086] So you end up doing a movie that is really quite a huge step forward in Harold and Kumar and then it required this thing that was opaque Or, yeah, like I just wouldn't have had that credit on my resume.

[1087] And had I not done Harolding Ponger to White Castle, I would not have had the chance to do a movie called The Namesake, which I loved, based on a novel that Miraneyer directed, who was, if you remember, the reason I was inspired to be an actor to begin with.

[1088] Because her son was a big Harold and Kumar fan and is essentially the reason why I was allowed to.

[1089] And, again, Husson sees Harold and Kumar, and Husson is empowered to become Husson.

[1090] Yes, so I get 10 % of everything that Husson makes.

[1091] To your point, it's always a fluid conversation, right?

[1092] To me, an accent is never a reason to do or not to do something.

[1093] Historically, it's used to mask subpar writing or subpar common.

[1094] And it's tricky to sort of navigate what that means.

[1095] And I think it was Miraneyer, who said in an interview that she is not a fan of cultural ambassadorship.

[1096] And I thought that was such a great way of describing this notion that one individual is allowed to decide what someone's experience is or what's.

[1097] something means to someone.

[1098] Now that said, I think it's a little bit of the nuance of I want to just be an actor and a comedian and I don't want to have to be mindful of the images that I send out into the world.

[1099] But the reality of the 13 year old me who would get bullied because something like the Simpsons or Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was the only frame of reference that kids in school would have is like, okay, there's also the reality of what John Cho calls the 14 year old me. Would the 14 year old me be proud of what I'm doing right now?

[1100] Yes.

[1101] And there's no right answer.

[1102] It's all very fluid.

[1103] There's all sorts of nuance.

[1104] John Cho has never played a stereotypical role.

[1105] And I admire the shit out of them for it.

[1106] Uh -huh.

[1107] Won't do it.

[1108] Uh -huh.

[1109] I wouldn't do it now.

[1110] Right.

[1111] My path to doing that buddy comedy was very different than John's path.

[1112] Mm -hmm.

[1113] And I admire our peers who have not made the choices that I made.

[1114] And I will say without a doubt that I had a great time improvising with Ryan Reynolds on Van Wilder.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] All things can be true.

[1117] We try to make these things binary, and they're way more complex than just that.

[1118] Yeah, I think it's just like if you feel compromised or not, and even if you do, there can still be good things that come out of it, or the experience can still be good if we're defining our lives by the experiences.

[1119] It sounds like the experience was good on that movie.

[1120] Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot.

[1121] I had the first day, the first scene that we did was Ivanka Basilovich, who's fantastic.

[1122] model actor.

[1123] She and I were in a scene together where we are trying to make love and I have all these scented candles and massage oils and my back catches on fire.

[1124] And I had to get fitted for a prosthetic back, which is a tiny piece of silicone that goes over your real back with little holes in it so they can, A, light the fake back on fire and then B, when the director yells cut, shoot ice water up in between because otherwise you'll actually burn because it'll go through the silicone.

[1125] And The first day of any real movie, I'd done some smaller films before that, and there are, the entire crew was distributed this fire retardant gear in masks.

[1126] Right, right.

[1127] They're all in, like, hazmat suits.

[1128] And I am in boxers and socks.

[1129] They're in hurt lockers and you're in underwear.

[1130] Literally.

[1131] And there are, you know, fire extinguishers nearby and fire blankets.

[1132] And then I look at Ivanka, who has nothing on.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] At all.

[1135] And I'm like, and I'm, it's my first day on a set.

[1136] And we do the scene a couple times You know, they light my back on fire It's a full body burn Which by the way, I found out later You just don't do with non -stunt people Right, right But Andrew and Walt wanted a wide shot Oh boy CGI was very expensive in 2002 So why don't we just light this new actor on fire Yeah And he's gonna run around If something goes sideways We got a guy in brown face at the crafty table So at the end of the day I asked Walt I said, hey, I just, you're the Walter, Andrew, I can't remember?

[1137] I was like, hey, man, can I just ask you something?

[1138] You know, this is such, it's such an intimate scene.

[1139] It's a stunt.

[1140] None of us know each other.

[1141] You know that it's my first day on, like, a movie.

[1142] This is all so crazy.

[1143] Why did we shoot this the first day?

[1144] It was, Andrew, I think.

[1145] And he goes, well, I mean, if I lose an actor, I don't want to have to reshoot the whole movie, right?

[1146] Oh, my God.

[1147] Oh, my God.

[1148] Welcome to Hollywood, kid.

[1149] And I so.

[1150] Yeah, the cold, hard reality of making a movie.

[1151] I so appreciated his candor.

[1152] The identity thing I wanted to say was so for me, it was a bit of the opposite where I always thought it was weird that other people were trying to suggest that I either was or wasn't Indian enough for them.

[1153] So I'm bilingual.

[1154] I grew up speaking English as my first language, but Godrothi as well.

[1155] One of my grandparents, my dad's mom, didn't speak English.

[1156] So learned primarily to communicate with her.

[1157] And then I did some study abroad stuff or nonprofit work in rural India and high school.

[1158] Oh, wow.

[1159] came fluent in Gadrathi.

[1160] So I remember my peers at UCLA, South Asian peers, who would look at me. And I remember these two shitty kids on my dorm floor who would go out of their way, Indian kids who would go out of their way to say, you're such a sellout, man. Like, how are you?

[1161] Like an uncle Tom.

[1162] Yes.

[1163] And I understand from our parents' generation, you're an immigrant, you've sacrificed everything to come to America.

[1164] You only know careers like medicine and engineering because they quite literally were your ticket to come to a new country and have a different life for your children.

[1165] I understand that pressure you want to tell your kids to go into careers, you know.

[1166] I do not understand our generation replicating a bullshit cultural attachment to a profession.

[1167] And so for a very long time in college, I was weirded out for the opposite reason where I was very confident in who I am or who I was.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] I'm bilingual.

[1170] I know all of the stuff that I know who is you to say that I'm not this because I'm also trying to be an actor and I developed such a chip on my shoulder for these kids at UCLA that I went out of my way to not talk to them so it was I think it sounds like the same results but with a very different path of getting there I'm sure I would have received that from but I just was avoiding them but now as an adult in recognizing probably the pressure that those parents, their parents had put on them, probably now from this perspective, you can go, although they were probably quite envious of your conviction and your willingness to break out of what they felt like was expected of them.

[1171] I would love to know, I don't know that that's the answer.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] I don't know.

[1174] There's just straight up tribalism, too.

[1175] Like, there's all these things, and then there's just hardcore, we're primates, there's tribalism, and they got closer by making you a sellout.

[1176] It's all so.

[1177] Yeah.

[1178] I know from some of my parents' friends who had questioned things back in the day that they've since said, it was not that we were ashamed.

[1179] That was the wrong expression.

[1180] It was that we were scared.

[1181] Scared, right.

[1182] And scared for you.

[1183] And you don't move to America for your child to be an actor.

[1184] And so I get all of that.

[1185] But I still don't know the answer to like the peers version.

[1186] Right.

[1187] And I hope you're right, Dax.

[1188] I hope that was the bit of it that went in.

[1189] I triggered a lot of people in high school.

[1190] And I forever thought they were.

[1191] were dicks and I now recognized like I was a man who wore ponytail and hair bands and I wore goofy overalls and like I was annoying but underneath that I was annoying was like why does this kid get to live out loud like this like you know I'm sure some of it was just like why am I playing by all these rules and he's not so now I'm mad at him yeah I just thought they were dicks but now I recognize they might have been envious of my perceived confidence to sure to do that kind of There was something I was going to tell you about the characters in my new show.

[1192] Yeah, yeah.

[1193] Yes, because I said the name, Michelle.

[1194] Oh, right.

[1195] So you wanted to play Michelle.

[1196] So I am not taking a side on this.

[1197] I think it's fascinating and totally valid on all sides.

[1198] But I remember when I got the job on house playing Dr. Lawrence Cutner, there was some chatter from the brown folk.

[1199] Why do you have to play a guy named Lawrence Cutner?

[1200] Why can't he be a guy named Samir or something?

[1201] Wow, you can't, you kind of can't win.

[1202] Like, it's super bad to play Taj Mahal, as we would all agree.

[1203] Yes, yes.

[1204] And then if you play Mike Johnson, that's bad too.

[1205] I am in no way implying that I know what is like to go through what either of you have gone through.

[1206] But my breakout roles were on punk playing white trash.

[1207] So I was playing the cartoon version of white trash quite often.

[1208] I, too, am like, taking that low -hanging fruit of whatever that stereotype is, too, about white trash.

[1209] trash.

[1210] But what I was going to say is different is that I have no ethical dilemma about it.

[1211] At no point am I thinking I'm representing white people.

[1212] And that's just a freedom I had that you don't.

[1213] And that is part of the unfairness.

[1214] Well, I think that also comes from there being different interpretations of whiteness, right?

[1215] We see a variety of characters such that that character is included.

[1216] I think, unfortunately, southern white folks are very rarely depicted in multidimensional ways on TV.

[1217] No, no, no, no. They're always dummies.

[1218] They're fucking their sister.

[1219] And that's a problem.

[1220] I think on the macro level, if you look at, same thing with like women or performers of color, take the brown folks example.

[1221] It's like you can count the times you're allowed to be on screen historically, which is different because you don't have the full breadth of characters.

[1222] Right.

[1223] Of which many are included in all sorts of spaces.

[1224] Yeah.

[1225] So I feel like that's always been the difference is that's like the baggage that people assign.

[1226] So when they were like, why do you have to play Lawrence Cutner?

[1227] I remember in the writers' room, they, for one of the drafts, had changed it to an Indian name.

[1228] And I was the one who protested and said, I earned the part of a guy that you wrote to be a Jewish sports medicine doctor named Lawrence Cutner.

[1229] Right.

[1230] That's who I want to play.

[1231] I'm not trying to equate these two, but I was remembering my high school acting teacher and Shakespeare.

[1232] And it's like, you don't change Romeo if you're playing Romeo.

[1233] you can just play Romeo.

[1234] Right.

[1235] And then you play a character who does have an Indian name.

[1236] And brown folk say, how come his name can't be Gary?

[1237] Right.

[1238] Like, yo, you guys!

[1239] What do you want me to do?

[1240] I just want to go by number eight.

[1241] My character's name is number eight.

[1242] So, for Sunnyside, which is my new show.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] My character's name is Garrett Modi.

[1245] Modi is my real last name.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] And you're getting to use it, which you normally.

[1248] Normally done.

[1249] Right.

[1250] Yeah.

[1251] Yeah.

[1252] And I also thought my parents would be pleased.

[1253] And my dad was like, why are you using our last name?

[1254] People will be confused.

[1255] I'm like, nobody's going to be confused, Dad.

[1256] It's like, look, Mindy uses her first name.

[1257] Like, people use their first names on shows.

[1258] Seinfeld.

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] Seinfeld used his last name.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] You're not Seinfeld.

[1263] I'm like, okay, fine.

[1264] So.

[1265] Very good point, but still.

[1266] So the reason I named him Garrett, and I think we're probably going to find this out in like the last episode of the first season.

[1267] The backstory is that when his and his sister's name is Mallory.

[1268] you find out that when his parents moved to America, they loved watching television and they loved the facts of life.

[1269] They thought that Mrs. Garrett was such a hardworking woman.

[1270] And as an immigrant, they're like, this Mrs. Garrett is the reason we watch the facts of life.

[1271] Then they started watching different strokes.

[1272] And Mrs. Garrett is also on different strokes.

[1273] And they were like, mind -blown, this woman is the hardest working America.

[1274] Our firstborn son has to be named.

[1275] She's cleaning half of America's house.

[1276] Yes.

[1277] And then Mallory, because of family ties, that shortly followed because Mallory was also very studious and hardworking.

[1278] Yeah, very type A. So I wanted to like, I mean, now I'm talking about it, so not quite so quiet so quiet, but like I wanted to do a quiet hat tip to that conversation that has no right answer.

[1279] Well, I bet by giving them both, everyone will be mad.

[1280] Yeah, no, you're happy.

[1281] You could think of it as a hack.

[1282] It's like it's both now.

[1283] Oh, yes.

[1284] The reason I remembered this, this all goes back to the sellout comment that went back to UCLA.

[1285] I don't often read my at mentions on Twitter or Instagram.

[1286] Somebody did slide into my Insta DMs calling me a sellout because I'm playing a guy named Garrett in a new NBC show.

[1287] And it made me think of these Indian kids at UCLA.

[1288] And I was like, I mean, I laughed.

[1289] I sent it to my co -creator Matt Murray.

[1290] And I was like, hey, man, this dude totally took the bait.

[1291] He put Moses on that show.

[1292] Moses is awesome.

[1293] I love him.

[1294] I'm so happy to see that he...

[1295] He's hilarious.

[1296] He does this crazy thing on the carpet where he's posing.

[1297] I think it was his first TCA's and he's just...

[1298] It's such a weird awesome.

[1299] He's like, thanks to my pose coach.

[1300] He's doing this like crazy.

[1301] He's so funny.

[1302] And today he found on Getty images that you can buy a photo of the weird pose for $500.

[1303] $500.

[1304] $500.

[1305] And I hope somebody buys it.

[1306] Oh, I'm going to buy it.

[1307] We should buy it.

[1308] I'm going to do it.

[1309] You should buy it.

[1310] Own the rights.

[1311] What network is that?

[1312] NBC.

[1313] NBC.

[1314] Yeah.

[1315] Okay.

[1316] That's Mike's.

[1317] Mike's.

[1318] Oh, that's right.

[1319] So Mike sure is involved with your show.

[1320] What is the premise of it?

[1321] Premise is, I play a guy named Garrett Modi, disgraced New York City Councilman who is kicked out of city council because he is wasted and tries to bribe a cop, pukes on a cop car in the BQE, New York City, and realizes as he gets kicked out of office that he has no other job skills.

[1322] He was the youngest ever elected New York City Council.

[1323] doesn't know what to do, puts an ad on Airbnb experiences, for 50 bucks an hour, I'll do whatever you want.

[1324] Oh, okay.

[1325] This group of immigrants hires him for a day to help them study for the citizenship test.

[1326] Oh.

[1327] Obviously, they know way more about what it means to be American in the citizen test than he does.

[1328] Well, the citizens test, I've seen it.

[1329] 98 % of a born American's can't pass this test.

[1330] In real life, I don't know very much.

[1331] But so essentially, it's a group of friends, right?

[1332] It's like the shows I grew up loving and watching like Fresh Prince and Seinfeld and friends and the class back in the day.

[1333] Right.

[1334] We're going for like that kind of a vibe.

[1335] So it's about a group of friends with that being the backdrop.

[1336] And since we're open and honest on the show, I will say that I auditioned for it.

[1337] Oh, and you were fantastic.

[1338] Thank you.

[1339] Oh, you remember.

[1340] Yes.

[1341] Oh, that's great.

[1342] And it is so funny.

[1343] It is.

[1344] It is.

[1345] It's going to be great.

[1346] What were you auditioning to play?

[1347] Cal's sister.

[1348] Ah, okay, I can see that.

[1349] The Mallory, the family ties Mallory.

[1350] So, you know, what's funny is about the whole accent thing.

[1351] Monica is expressively, we'll never do the accent.

[1352] She claims she can't do the accent.

[1353] I'm like, well, you could learn the accent.

[1354] Yeah, you'll do it for money.

[1355] I could learn it.

[1356] I could learn it, yeah.

[1357] But the real, like, the Sophie's choice really happened for her, which was Mindy, was doing a show and accent required.

[1358] It's about people that are newly emigrated.

[1359] Yeah.

[1360] Yeah.

[1361] And so I said to Monica, I'm like, there's, God is fucking with you right now.

[1362] It's like, it's the most tempting opportunity.

[1363] And she goes, it's not even a thing because I don't know.

[1364] And I'm like, I can't teach you.

[1365] I know it from without a paddle.

[1366] If I went to Dax to learn the accent.

[1367] Yeah.

[1368] Is that a double?

[1369] A double.

[1370] Oh, my gosh.

[1371] Well, somebody and somebody would find it and be like, she sounds exactly like Dax from without a paddle.

[1372] It's like she has an Indian accent and a Michigan accent.

[1373] Yeah, yes, it's interesting.

[1374] But it's called Sunnyside, and it's on what day on NBC?

[1375] Thursday nights at 9 .30.

[1376] But I do, I do just want to say, just you can't leave here without just saying that, you know, kind of at the height of your superpowers, you're, you know, you're midway through doing the franchise of Harold and Kumar, and you're on House, which, by the way, is the only medical show I ever loved.

[1377] That was a show I watched.

[1378] I loved it.

[1379] You're great on the show.

[1380] Thank you.

[1381] And then you bounce.

[1382] Yeah.

[1383] You go to work at the White House.

[1384] Tell me how you got to that point.

[1385] It sounds super random.

[1386] It's far less random than I think it sounds.

[1387] In 2007, when I was on House, there was a writer's strike.

[1388] So the WGA had a labor dispute, and we couldn't shoot any more episodes after the ones that were written were gone.

[1389] And right around that time was when all of the primaries were kicking off Iowa.

[1390] Caucus kicks off the primary season.

[1391] And I had read, I think Obama had one book out at the time.

[1392] I don't think the second one had dropped yet.

[1393] But I liked his book.

[1394] I did not like politicians, and I had no interest in actually working for one.

[1395] And Olivia Wilde knocked on my trailer door one day before we had wrapped for the strike.

[1396] And she said, hey, I've got a plus one to an Obama event that he's doing.

[1397] Do you want to come?

[1398] Like, well, what is it?

[1399] I saw his 2004 speech.

[1400] Thought it was awesome.

[1401] I would love to hear him.

[1402] But I, like, what's the catch?

[1403] It's like, well, it's for about 50 artists.

[1404] And he's basically going to make an ask to see who can help him in the lead up to the Iowa caucus.

[1405] because he's running for president.

[1406] I was like, yeah, I don't have an interest in that.

[1407] She's like, why not?

[1408] You were against the Iraq war?

[1409] I'm like, yeah, both parties got us into the Iraq war.

[1410] Yeah, but Obama was against the Iraq war.

[1411] I'm like, okay, but he wasn't a sitting senator at the time.

[1412] So this went back and forth.

[1413] I ultimately went with her.

[1414] Let me back up.

[1415] A guy named Peter Blake, who was one of our writers on House, said, hey, if you're going to go to this event, you might be interested in going to a fundraiser for Obama.

[1416] I was like, this is how people get roped into shit.

[1417] I am not a fan of Barack Obama.

[1418] Now you're committed to two things.

[1419] I'm a nerd.

[1420] I am going with Olivia Wilde.

[1421] She's my coworker.

[1422] Yeah.

[1423] He's going to make an ask.

[1424] Why don't you see what he's actually like in front of his donors?

[1425] There's this breakfast event he's doing in Maliboutes, only $2 ,500 a plate.

[1426] I was like, wait, wait, wait, what?

[1427] Only 25 bucks a plate.

[1428] It's not going to happen.

[1429] I can get you in for $25, as long as you don't eat any of the food.

[1430] I have immigrant parents who raised me right.

[1431] I can see a deal coming.

[1432] Yeah.

[1433] That's definitely a deal.

[1434] That'd be a fucking good meal if it's worth $2 ,475.

[1435] I had never seen such a breakfast in my life, but all of which only made me cynical, and I was like, well, of course, this guy is just like everybody else, and he's going to be rich people breakfasts.

[1436] But at that breakfast, he started talking about climate change and clearly went off remarks and was calling people out for driving Hummers to this event.

[1437] It was very popular at the time.

[1438] Wow.

[1439] You know, people seemed a little uncomfortable, and I thought, you know, there's no press here.

[1440] This dude is clearly going off remarks.

[1441] This is not what my Polly Sci class said people do.

[1442] Right.

[1443] You don't do this in front of your donors.

[1444] You don't alienate donors.

[1445] Yeah.

[1446] That was a morning event.

[1447] This thing Olivia invited me to was in the evening.

[1448] During the day, I got my tacos and I read a bunch of nerdy policy stuff about climate change on his website, his policy papers and stuff.

[1449] It just so happens that a few weeks prior I had read an article about ethanol in foreign affairs magazine.

[1450] And it talked about how, so ethanol can be made from all sorts of things, but this talked about corn -based ethanol.

[1451] Yeah, yeah.

[1452] And how if you use corn to create fuel, it'll drive up the price of corn in developing countries and people won't be able to feed themselves if they rely on corn as a staple.

[1453] So I was prepared.

[1454] I was like, oh, I have read these articles.

[1455] I am going to ask him a question.

[1456] Oh, wow.

[1457] We're going to be in a room full of actors, and I'm going to be the smart guy.

[1458] Sure.

[1459] This will be awesome.

[1460] And I go to this event, and it was very nice.

[1461] He didn't make any speeches.

[1462] He just sort of worked the room and getting to know people.

[1463] And I said, the senator, I've got a question for you.

[1464] I was at your thing this morning.

[1465] and you think about the Hummers, that was very funny.

[1466] You won't sound like a reporter.

[1467] I was that your thing this morning.

[1468] No, I did not sound like a late back.

[1469] Like the nerd thing was fully happening.

[1470] And I said, and you know, they say that your plan, your policy plan talks about investing in ethanol.

[1471] But, you know, corn -based ethanol drives up the price of food for people in developing countries.

[1472] So how does your plan account for that?

[1473] And he looks at me and goes, yeah, I read that article in Foreign Affairs too.

[1474] You know, my plan is based on cellulosic ethanol so that you can.

[1475] can use things like grass clippings and leaves to fuel as well.

[1476] It was a bridge, bridge to cellulosic ethanol.

[1477] I was like, oh, this is so embarrassing.

[1478] Checkmate, motherfucker.

[1479] Yeah, he is obviously.

[1480] Once you run on, get us some white cast, the sun.

[1481] Exactly.

[1482] Exactly.

[1483] I was like, oh, man, this is rough.

[1484] He even knew the article I read that wasn't on his campaign's website.

[1485] But I thought it was an interesting interaction.

[1486] And then he had said some things about the role that artists play in America and sort of said, you know, you guys give people an escape, and I would love your help in making people's lives better substantively.

[1487] And he was asking for, can you help me in a weekend of campaigning in Iowa?

[1488] So myself, Olivia, and an actor, she's a fantastic name, Megalene Ichi Kanwake.

[1489] My favorite person.

[1490] She's awesome.

[1491] I love Megalyn.

[1492] She's so dope.

[1493] Yeah, Kristen was on a show with her, and she's just the most fantastic.

[1494] So the three of us were non -political surrogates.

[1495] A surrogate is somebody who speaks on behalf of a candidate so that, you know, they can do a rally.

[1496] and you can be in another state or another place in the same state to speak on that person's behalf.

[1497] And the Obama campaign had set up this infrastructure where they were reaching out to new voters.

[1498] It's called expanding the electorate.

[1499] So they did some math.

[1500] David Pluff talks about this a lot in his book.

[1501] You do the math and say, we can't win this election unless we empower people to vote for the first time.

[1502] So that can be young people who are turning 18 or people in their early 20s who haven't voted before.

[1503] It can be communities that have historically not voted.

[1504] So rural folks, communities of color, whatever that demographic is.

[1505] And we want this campaign to be for everybody.

[1506] So one aspect of that was student outreach.

[1507] So the three of us went on this Iowa, winter Iowa tour to a bunch of college campuses for three days.

[1508] And I totally fell in love with these people on the campaign.

[1509] It was people who were a little younger than I was at the time, sleeping on couches or in campaign offices, working essentially 24 -7 because they really believed in our ability to change the country for the better.

[1510] And this was a guy who, I know I'm sort of preaching the Kool -Aid here, but at the time, you know, and still on both campaigns, Obama wasn't taking federal lobbyist money.

[1511] He had been against the Iraq war.

[1512] There was a whole bunch of stuff that now we look back on and think, well, this is how it should always be.

[1513] But it wasn't always that way.

[1514] And, of course, now you look at our politics and realize it's not that way again.

[1515] Yeah.

[1516] But this was like a little sliver of time where I thought this is very cool.

[1517] And you have to remember, that was when most people couldn't pronounce his name.

[1518] Yeah.

[1519] So if you wanted to work at the White House or if you wanted.

[1520] They couldn't say Barry?

[1521] They couldn't say Barry.

[1522] Obama?

[1523] Was that Barrack Obama?

[1524] Hussein?

[1525] Isn't there a Hussein in there somewhere?

[1526] Hussein thing?

[1527] They knew how to pronounce Hussein.

[1528] Fellow Democrats ran some campaigns using Hussein to try and get people to know.

[1529] Wow.

[1530] But at the time, if you wanted a political job or if you wanted to work at the White House, you worked for Hillary Clinton or John Edwards.

[1531] Those were the two campaigns that you worked for.

[1532] Right.

[1533] And so all of these scrappy, very dedicated people on the Obama campaign were people who I related to because they also detested politics as as the way it was, right?

[1534] And they also didn't, like, they never envisioned that they would go and work for a guy who was running for president.

[1535] And also didn't think that he was necessarily going to win.

[1536] You just did it because it was sort of the right thing to do.

[1537] So I'm going to fast forward a little bit.

[1538] He ended up winning the Iowa caucuses.

[1539] The writer strike happened, so I was able to go and volunteer more than just that weekend.

[1540] Meglin was on a show, I think, that had more scripts.

[1541] I think she was on CSI at the time.

[1542] Okay.

[1543] Had way more scripts than we had.

[1544] Olivia was married at the time.

[1545] So they both went back to L .A. and I was able to stay.

[1546] So I stayed and Obama ends up winning the Iowa caucuses and then I went to 26 other states on behalf of the campaign over the next sort of year, I guess, maybe a little over year.

[1547] And then he wins the presidency and there was an opportunity.

[1548] So I was essentially working on outreach to young people on the campaign, a little bit of outreach to Asian American communities.

[1549] And then the campaign had an arts policy committee.

[1550] At the time, I was doing a graduate certificate in international security on the size.

[1551] sort of.

[1552] Sure.

[1553] It mostly is a distance learning thing.

[1554] I'm a big, this is why I was reading foreign affairs to begin with them.

[1555] Yeah.

[1556] So those were the three things that I was kind of doing on the campaign.

[1557] And there was a, the Office of Public Engagement, which is essentially the outreach office of the White House that Obama retooled from a more archaic version that it has since returned to, was looking for one human.

[1558] They had the, they had $41 ,000 a year to pay one person to coordinate outreach to young Americans and Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders and the arts community.

[1559] So sort of three, different jobs under one bucket.

[1560] And the reason I'm mentioning both salary and the job description is that we tend to think of politics as this monolith the same way that we think of Hollywood.

[1561] Hollywood's never going to change.

[1562] Hollywood is one thing.

[1563] Politics is one thing or the White House is one thing.

[1564] And it's not.

[1565] And that was very true and very apparent when I was sitting in this, you know, I shared an office, probably this space of your attic, maybe even smaller, with five other people.

[1566] So our desks were all...

[1567] You're like back in your dorm room.

[1568] Yeah, basically.

[1569] For the two that I was working at the White House, I was a junior to mid -level staffer.

[1570] And these folks had also taken leaves of absence from their private sector courses, and people who were lawyers and pediatricians.

[1571] Is this the first time in your life you feel like, oh my goodness, I have a purpose.

[1572] Like, is it really gratifying?

[1573] Well, I think it, this is also going to sound very cheesy.

[1574] I felt like the aspect of it that really floored me was how much of an impact people can have in general when they actually exercise their sort of democratic values.

[1575] Yeah, yeah.

[1576] The idea that we can do something.

[1577] Like, yeah, maybe you need to spend a couple hours on a weekend phone banking, a congressional race in a state that you don't live in because that's going to be a swing vote on an issue that you really care about.

[1578] Right.

[1579] Like, it's actually not that hard.

[1580] The numbers are there.

[1581] We just don't do these things.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] It seems insurmountable.

[1584] Yeah.

[1585] And it's not insurmountable.

[1586] And being surrounded by a culture of people that believed that, I think, fueled a fire in me that I did.

[1587] didn't know that I had before that remains this very you know you can call it idealism or you can sort of roll your eyes and be like oh that's that hope you change you shit from back in the day yeah but it's true that the numbers that are there and the issues that we care about if we all sit there and just send really incendiary tweets which by the way feel fantastic sure yeah but it feels like a slam dunk yeah yeah it doesn't actually move the needle we have three branches of government that move slowly on purpose yep and and learning all of those lessons was actually pretty empowering.

[1588] So when you ask about whether it brought meaning, I think that the meaning was being there for seeing things like the Affordable Care Act get passed or meeting people whose lives were going to be changed because the Pell Grant was doubled or, you know, college affordability.

[1589] Something as non -sexy as a tax credit for kids to go to college or anyone to go to college, really, that you could claim to get $2 ,500.

[1590] Seeing that pass and meeting people whose lives were going to be changed by that was like, it was crazy.

[1591] Yeah.

[1592] Yeah, absolutely.

[1593] Didn't hurt to be there when they got bin Laden, too, but, you know.

[1594] Yeah, yeah.

[1595] So is it fair to say you became buddies with Obama?

[1596] Here's the political answer.

[1597] Well, yes, look, the friends that you make on an early campaign, I'm very lucky to consider them as friends, Valor Jarritt, who's my boss, she and Tina Chen, who I reported to at the White House.

[1598] You know, you think of like, okay, that's the president's senior advisor for all eight years.

[1599] she's an incredible person.

[1600] She just had a book come out, actually.

[1601] It's a phenomenal read.

[1602] You think of people's stories as, wow, well, that's something I could never do.

[1603] Sure.

[1604] Like, I don't think the president thought that he could be president when he was growing up, right?

[1605] I don't think that Valerie thought that she'd be sitting there for eight years as a senior advisor.

[1606] I think when you hear the story of like, oh, Cal Penn's this stoner actor who's, like, friends with these people.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] It seems to make sense if that's how you codify it.

[1609] Uh -huh.

[1610] But then you look at the reality of this guy with the funny.

[1611] name, as he describes it, who grew up in Hawaii, or like a woman from Chicago and how they met and how they got to this place.

[1612] It's kind of the incredible American story.

[1613] Whether you vibe with their politics or not is wholly irrelevant to the fact that that is who we are as a country.

[1614] That is who we can be.

[1615] Yeah.

[1616] And there's something kind of amazing about that.

[1617] The tipping point for me is I was like, oh, this guy wrote an autobiography right before running for president, he admitted he did Coke.

[1618] I'm like, I'm in.

[1619] I'm in.

[1620] This may be the first one I believe.

[1621] I don't know.

[1622] Bush talked about doing Coke, too, didn't he?

[1623] But he was recovering and it was a whole, it was an unavoidable topic.

[1624] I don't think he would have chose to just own that without being grilled about it.

[1625] No one was accusing Obama of having Dunk Coke.

[1626] I was just like, well, this is a new spin on it.

[1627] I kind of like, my biggest objection is hypocrisy.

[1628] That's like the one thing that drives me insane.

[1629] So I was like, oh, this guy is, that's telling of his integrity.

[1630] Weirdly, that would be the thing I hung it on.

[1631] As you were speaking, I was thinking, wow.

[1632] What a time in place when the accusation that you were not born in America from your fellow Democrats before even the Republicans is worse than doing Coke.

[1633] Like, let me just talk about how much coke I did.

[1634] Let me talk about the Coke.

[1635] I mean, that was, I remember when I first, when that first trip actually with Olivia and Megalyn, so we landed snowing Quad Cities Airport in Moline, Illinois, right over the border from Iowa.

[1636] We landed and one of Obama's communication staffers was sitting in the front seat of this van.

[1637] And before we left, she turned to me and she was like, hi, Cal, hi.

[1638] Hi, I'm Aaron with the communication team.

[1639] I just have, and she keeps looking at her BlackBerry.

[1640] She's like, I just have a couple of questions, just one question really before we get going.

[1641] And I'm like, I knew exactly what she was going to ask me. And I was like, Aaron, I don't smoke weed in real life.

[1642] That's what you're wondering.

[1643] She was, yes, because there's going to be press at these events.

[1644] I was like, yeah, I just do edibles, so it's totally fine.

[1645] And she was horrified.

[1646] I was like, no, no, I'm kidding.

[1647] I'm kidding.

[1648] Look, it's just a movie.

[1649] Yes.

[1650] I'm not going to talk about edibles or weed.

[1651] I actually would love to be here for the right reasons.

[1652] But I found out that that morning, Paul Toos, who was this incredible guy who ran a state director for Obama's Iowa primary, he hadn't read the memo of the fact that the three of us were coming until that morning.

[1653] And he freaked out because he saw Harold and Kumar go to White Castle in my bio.

[1654] Sure.

[1655] And thought that John.

[1656] John Edwards and Hillary Clinton's campaigns would hit Obama for promoting drug use on college campuses.

[1657] Right.

[1658] So he was going to pull me and send me back to L .A. And let Meglin and Olivia do the rest of the tour.

[1659] And now he's, you know, now he's a friend and like heard the story from a couple of different people.

[1660] But it's kind of insane, right?

[1661] You're talking about the Coke thing.

[1662] But even weed, even the things that people are sensitive to in campaigns at the time is you just don't want any missteps and you want to be.

[1663] Yeah.

[1664] Oh, the stakes are the highest of the stakes.

[1665] So while you had the job in, you lived in D .C., you're making 41K a year before taxes.

[1666] You're definitely losing money there, not just in your lost wages, but you're probably spending more to just be there, right?

[1667] Yeah.

[1668] But you worked in the White House.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] There are a couple of different buildings in the complex.

[1671] I worked in the Eisenhower Executive Office building, which is this massive, if you look at the White House complex, it's this massive building on 17th Street with a little walkway that goes to the West Wing, is a phenomenally small place.

[1672] So all the bosses sit in the West Wing and all of the staffers sit in the EEOB that Eisenhower building.

[1673] Were your parents, the fact that they moved to this country and their fucking kid works in the White House?

[1674] Or are they like, oh my gosh?

[1675] Let me rewind just a half a step to say that my recollection of the last time that I was called by my parents to say at least get an MBA or at least get a real.

[1676] estate license, at least get something with stability, was probably the end of the first season that I was on house.

[1677] Oh, what?

[1678] Just to put just to give you an idea of parental fear.

[1679] And I think it's totally valid fear.

[1680] The idea that you do not have a stable job.

[1681] Yeah.

[1682] I'm sure part of it was that I was playing a doctor if I wasn't a doctor in real life.

[1683] Yeah.

[1684] So then cut to this And I remember before actually taking the job, before the conversations about the job happened, because I started late.

[1685] I started in June of 2009.

[1686] So six months into the administration.

[1687] There was this concert during inauguration that the Obama's had on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.

[1688] And I was asked to read a short quote.

[1689] There were a bunch of actors that read short quotes from previous presidents.

[1690] And then like, it was like Jack Black and like Ashley Judd.

[1691] And then Bruce Springsteen was playing.

[1692] Bono was playing a couple of country music acts.

[1693] Like it was a cool thing.

[1694] And you got to bring your parents.

[1695] And so my, my parents came and they were sitting in the audience and the green room, the hold room before you went out on stage, it was in the basement of the Lincoln Memorial.

[1696] There's a civil rights museum.

[1697] And so there are these, like, these heavily armed Secret Service tactical guys down there.

[1698] They had left a bunch of the exhibits on.

[1699] So there's this black and white footage of black folks being, you know, beaten and hosed and dogs and, you know, the whole thing.

[1700] And it's just such a, nobody.

[1701] saying anything.

[1702] She's just like taking all of this in before you go on stage for a concert celebrating America that happens to also be the first black president who's being inaugurated.

[1703] So afterwards, my mom just looked at me and she said, your grandparents would be very proud of you to me. Which is even more than saying that they were proud because my grandparents had marched with Gandhi and there was this whole history that, you know, that I've always been very mindful of.

[1704] So I got chills from that.

[1705] But then when the conversations of, about the job happened, and I called my dad to tell him that I was taking a sabbatical from acting, which required me getting killed off of house, to take a job that pays $41 ,000 a year at the White House.

[1706] He listened and then burst out laughing.

[1707] And that was, of all of the things in my head of how he was going to react, that wasn't on the table.

[1708] So I didn't know how to respond.

[1709] I was like, why are you laughing?

[1710] And he goes, well, what do you want me to say?

[1711] And I said, I don't know.

[1712] Like, what are you thinking?

[1713] He goes, well, you've already made this decision.

[1714] I was like, yeah, yeah, I have.

[1715] And he goes, well, I was wrong when you said you wanted to be an actor.

[1716] So I don't know what I would say.

[1717] I just hope that you are doing something that you enjoy.

[1718] And are you, is this a career change for you?

[1719] I said, no, no, no, I want to do it for a year or two.

[1720] My first love is always making people laugh and acting and storytelling through those means.

[1721] I just feel like you don't say no when an opportunity like this presents itself.

[1722] I feel like I would hope part of his laughter was just like, look at this kid's moxie.

[1723] My goodness.

[1724] This kid will fucking make any decision in.

[1725] I hope.

[1726] I mean, I have to imagine that's part of the lap.

[1727] My fear was bookended when, so when you leave your White House job, you're invited to the Oval Office to do an exit photo.

[1728] So a photo that Pete Sousa takes of you and whoever you want to bring with the president in the Oval Office.

[1729] The White House is a very small place, so you do see the president and senior staff often, but you're not necessarily interacting with them unless you have to brief him for something in particular.

[1730] So I can't remember what it was, but like a month before that exit photo, before my last day, I had to brief the president on something.

[1731] And I mentioned, I was like, you know, sir, my last day is next month.

[1732] He goes, you're bringing your parents in, right?

[1733] And I was like, yeah, of course.

[1734] And he's like, good.

[1735] And I said, I just want to apologize in advance if, like, my dad says anything.

[1736] And he's like, what's your dad going to say?

[1737] I don't know.

[1738] He's like, he's an Indian uncle.

[1739] I just don't want him to give you tips on like foreign policy or the economy.

[1740] I don't know what his stocks are doing right now.

[1741] But like, I don't want him to give you tips.

[1742] He sort of laughed and goes, I would be disappointed if that didn't happen.

[1743] That's what parents are for.

[1744] Yes.

[1745] I was like, okay, thank you.

[1746] And my dad didn't say anything.

[1747] He was like very, and these things are so quick that he didn't have a chance to.

[1748] But in the back of my head, I'm like, he laughed at me when I took the job.

[1749] Is he bottling up his whole thing just to be able to say?

[1750] Is he going to throw a pie in Obama's face?

[1751] Because, you know, I mean, any parent, but especially Indian uncles debating politics, look at Husson's show.

[1752] He's got clips of like uncles and aunty's advising him on stuff.

[1753] When he decided to talk about Indian politics, you cannot do this.

[1754] That is so real.

[1755] So I was like, maybe this is going to happen.

[1756] Yeah.

[1757] And so it was fine.

[1758] But it was a very special time.

[1759] I really enjoyed it.

[1760] Yeah, what a special detour you took.

[1761] I'm really envious and happy for you.

[1762] you had the confidence to do that because thank you yeah i think most of us actors operate on the assumption that like it's all been a bad mix up and they're going to knock on our door and say well we just realize you should not be doing this uh i think all of us are very insecure as actors sort of who we are yeah um but no man i really think that the big takeaway from me was that my story i understand got a lot of attention because i was in the public eye and i was on a tv show and that was my leave of you're kind of the pat tillman of acting i don't you remember Pat Tillman?

[1763] He played for the Cardinals.

[1764] He was just re -upping his contract.

[1765] He was on fire.

[1766] He quit and joined the army.

[1767] And you're like, who does that?

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] But there are thousands of people who do that.

[1770] And there were the people I worked alongside and in jobs that you'll never hear about because they didn't leave TV shows.

[1771] They left doctors offices and law firms and think tanks and, you know, they were teachers.

[1772] I mean, that's sort of the most beautiful thing is I totally get why the story is like, oh, he left a TV show to go work at the White House.

[1773] But it is truly scores and scores of people do this.

[1774] And it's a testament to like what's possible, I think, in America.

[1775] Yeah, the kind of better angels of our nature.

[1776] Was it hard to get out of that contract?

[1777] Or were they totally understanding?

[1778] Oh, so.

[1779] Because they probably had you for seven years of options, right?

[1780] So I called my, so my manager is still the same guy.

[1781] I had a different agent at the time who was not Barbara.

[1782] And I called the agent.

[1783] And I said, you know, I told her what was happening.

[1784] I had shared it with my manager.

[1785] and I said, can you talk to them and see how they feel about sort of like getting out of the contract?

[1786] I feel really weird, even asking this, but it means a lot.

[1787] And she called back and said, absolutely no. Like, everybody said this is, you will not be let out of your contract.

[1788] Right.

[1789] So I sat on that for a couple of days.

[1790] And then I thought, like, how do you tell the White House that like you're playing a fake doctor and so you can't serve your country?

[1791] Right.

[1792] Like, this feels so lame.

[1793] I at least, I don't feel like I've done everything I can do.

[1794] but what about like maybe maybe just the idea of talking to my boss directly so yeah i went to david shores office and i made an appointment with him and i said david i know that you know the answer is no i just had to sit down and meet with you and say i love the show i just i have an opportunity to serve our country and i i just would love for you to reconsider and he goes well this is the first i'm hearing of that uh he hadn't even been yeah so i don't fully know whether it was the 10 % or you know the agent not even asking because they don't want to lose that income because they get 10 % of your salary.

[1795] Or if they had asked someone at the studio or someone who...

[1796] Or the lawyer calls the business affairs guy and they go, no, this is a fucking contract, tough titties.

[1797] Yeah.

[1798] So David was like, are you unhappy on the show?

[1799] That's my number one concern.

[1800] I was like, no, man, are you kidding?

[1801] I finally have a series regular gig on TV.

[1802] Yes.

[1803] Like, I love it.

[1804] I love these people.

[1805] I love your writers.

[1806] He said, okay, then I bet people are telling you you're crazy.

[1807] And I said, yeah, he told me some variant of, if I'm remembering this correctly, he was a lawyer in Toronto.

[1808] And people told him he was crazy because he said he wanted to be a screenwriter.

[1809] And then he finally just packed up and moved to L .A. and became a screenwriter.

[1810] Right.

[1811] So he's like, who am I to tell you that this is crazy?

[1812] If you want to do it, you have my I just need some time to figure out how it's going to go down.

[1813] What a wonderful.

[1814] Well, Kalpin.

[1815] Close.

[1816] Culpin.

[1817] Yeah.

[1818] Culpin.

[1819] Yeah.

[1820] It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

[1821] Likewise.

[1822] Yeah.

[1823] I really, I can't believe how many ways we intersected and yet have not sat down and had a conversation.

[1824] I mean, that Barbara camera thing is just...

[1825] That's crazy.

[1826] The UCLA 2000 was already, I was like, this is nuts.

[1827] And now Barbara, and I got a hunch it doesn't end there.

[1828] But the Barbara, I mean, for the listener, really, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of agents.

[1829] I was submitting thousands of headshots for years, two and a half years, at least, before she was the only one who called me and brought me in and was so sweet.

[1830] And that's...

[1831] Yeah, but mostly Laura.

[1832] We agree.

[1833] Mostly, that's where we have to, look, I thought I was going in there to do porn.

[1834] So that's just, it was a nice turn to me. Our point person, Laura.

[1835] Yeah.

[1836] Well, so awesome having you.

[1837] Yeah, likewise.

[1838] Amazing story.

[1839] And we appreciate you indulging us.

[1840] Thank you, thank you.

[1841] All right.

[1842] Be good.

[1843] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Padman.

[1844] Cal Penn. Yeah.

[1845] What a guy.

[1846] What a sweet, sweet guy.

[1847] I really, really liked him.

[1848] Did you?

[1849] So much.

[1850] Truly so much.

[1851] Where I thought like, oh, wow, there's still a whole bunch of people that, because I met most of my peers, I feel like.

[1852] No. In acting?

[1853] Oh.

[1854] Like in the comedy world?

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] Yeah, yeah.

[1857] I mean, really, we're down to a couple that I haven't met.

[1858] And he was one of them.

[1859] And I just was like reminded, oh, shit, I could have been stuck on a little path with him and that would have been fun.

[1860] Yeah.

[1861] Because we were doing the same things at the same time.

[1862] Yeah, literally.

[1863] Oh, gosh.

[1864] As it turns out all the way.

[1865] That was mind -blowing.

[1866] Do you think you guys are twins, separated at birth?

[1867] I do.

[1868] And you make a hole.

[1869] Yeah, I think we do.

[1870] I mean, the fact that we both drove to that house, Barbara Cameron's house.

[1871] That is crazy.

[1872] It's really crazy.

[1873] That's so cool.

[1874] You guys definitely cross paths at some point.

[1875] I had to have.

[1876] Before you knew each other.

[1877] Because, you know, when Babs Cameron was submitting to dial, she was doing her five comedians my age.

[1878] Certainly we were there.

[1879] Yeah.

[1880] And then graduated the same as well.

[1881] Yeah.

[1882] You guys were just missing each other your whole lives.

[1883] You're right.

[1884] We kept zigzagging.

[1885] We were running from two different alligators, but we intersected finally.

[1886] It's poignant.

[1887] It is.

[1888] It's a really profound and deep thing.

[1889] I think it is.

[1890] I mean, I know we're making sense about it.

[1891] But I really do think it is.

[1892] It is kind of profound.

[1893] Like there are people in life that you're just barely missing.

[1894] Oh, yes.

[1895] It's kind of right.

[1896] Like a love story.

[1897] I hope that's my love story.

[1898] star cross -off.

[1899] Yes, like when you finally meet your husband, it'll occur to you.

[1900] You were in all the same place.

[1901] He was at the same premiere in London, seeing Jennifer Aniston.

[1902] Yeah, exactly.

[1903] Yeah.

[1904] Oh, my God.

[1905] Well, you guys will start looking through each other's pictures.

[1906] And it'll click, like, wait, is that the premiere for Along Came Polly?

[1907] No. What was the movie?

[1908] Break up.

[1909] Oh, right, right, right.

[1910] Wait.

[1911] I'll be Cal. Okay.

[1912] Wait, not Cal. My husband.

[1913] Oh, right.

[1914] Right.

[1915] Sorry, you're right, you're right, right.

[1916] Where's your husband from?

[1917] Well, he's like from a place that you wouldn't even know it.

[1918] It's like a random place in Idaho.

[1919] Oh, in Idaho.

[1920] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1921] Okay, great.

[1922] Cripsure, Idaho.

[1923] Oh, wonderful.

[1924] Yeah.

[1925] Okay.

[1926] So I'll be good.

[1927] Oh, let me look at these cute pictures of you.

[1928] Oh, yeah.

[1929] This was, oh, man. What is?

[1930] Are you in London here?

[1931] Yeah, I had this embarrassing phase where I used to, I would go, God, I'm feeling I don't even want to tell you this.

[1932] I used to go stand at premieres.

[1933] Like I would stand there the entire day.

[1934] What?

[1935] Yes.

[1936] And I wanted to meet these people.

[1937] And so I did this.

[1938] And then I got photographs with it.

[1939] I'm so embarrassed.

[1940] Wait a minute.

[1941] What?

[1942] Christopher.

[1943] Okay.

[1944] So it looks like you were about two or three feet back.

[1945] Oh, yeah.

[1946] Do you see that black hair?

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] That's me. No. I was there.

[1949] Oh my God.

[1950] I haven't been this excited since I competed in the 2010 state cheer championship.

[1951] Wait a minute.

[1952] I was a spotter.

[1953] Okay.

[1954] If you're a spotter, you got to get out of here.

[1955] Oh, you're out.

[1956] Oh, that's not a thing.

[1957] It's actually.

[1958] Oh, what does he have to be?

[1959] No, he's like a sturdy base.

[1960] Oh, a base.

[1961] What the hell is a spotter do?

[1962] Nothing.

[1963] Really just watch the whole thing?

[1964] Oh, that's in gymnastics you get a spot.

[1965] Well, that's like the coach.

[1966] Or when you're lifting heavy weights, you get a spotter.

[1967] My husband is probably not going to be a gymnastics coach because now I'm a little skeptical of those people.

[1968] No, no, no, no, he wasn't a coach.

[1969] No, no, he was just one of the...

[1970] But no, I still feel like, okay, I'll leave gymnastics coaches on the table.

[1971] Okay, good, good, good.

[1972] Yeah, that's a silly, silly door to shut.

[1973] I don't want to rule that out.

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] Yeah.

[1976] Coaches are like touching your butt and bodies.

[1977] Spotting your buns and your chest.

[1978] Young girls.

[1979] Right.

[1980] I had some really nice ones, though, some nice men coaches.

[1981] I thought you were talking about your boobs because I just said, I go spotting your buns or your boobs.

[1982] And you go, I got to tell you, I had some really nice ones.

[1983] Well, I did.

[1984] I did have nice ones and I had nice coaches.

[1985] What if you're just right now, right?

[1986] because you're regaling right now.

[1987] You have this sweet look on your face.

[1988] And to imagine that you're remembering your breasts is so funny.

[1989] I wish there was video of it.

[1990] Just gazing off into the distance.

[1991] Just thinking about those suckers.

[1992] Wow.

[1993] What a pair.

[1994] My goodness.

[1995] I wish I was more grateful for you then.

[1996] No, mine are still fine.

[1997] Yeah.

[1998] I would say they're pretty much the exact same as they were back then.

[1999] Wow.

[2000] Maybe even a little bit better.

[2001] Oh, wow.

[2002] With age, they got a little better.

[2003] A little more sophisticated.

[2004] Oh, sophisticated.

[2005] Sure, sure.

[2006] Elegant, maybe.

[2007] Elegance comes with age.

[2008] No, I can't believe you pinned that face as a happy face because really I was thinking of a horrible memory.

[2009] You were?

[2010] Yes.

[2011] Can I show you what your face looked like while you were thinking of this memory?

[2012] Oh, okay.

[2013] I can see your face doing that.

[2014] Yeah, yeah, because it was so embarrassing.

[2015] Uh -huh.

[2016] So, you know, when you're embarrassed, you like, kind of smile or my case, Yeah, so that's what was happening.

[2017] Ah, okay, okay.

[2018] Well, I got my period in my leotard.

[2019] Okay, go on.

[2020] That's the whole story, basically.

[2021] I just got my period in my leotard.

[2022] It was a white leotard.

[2023] You could see it.

[2024] Did someone else point it out to you or did you discover it?

[2025] No, I discovered it later.

[2026] Okay, after practice.

[2027] Yeah, at home.

[2028] And then all I could think about was that.

[2029] My coach, of course, noticed.

[2030] Oh, and they wouldn't be empowered to say.

[2031] What could he say?

[2032] He was a man. Hey, you spilled a little blood on your gusset.

[2033] On your banana grundle.

[2034] There's a little crimson.

[2035] He spilled blood.

[2036] Anyway, I felt horrible for him.

[2037] For the coach?

[2038] Wow, that's where, what a benevolent memory, because there's no, like, sadness of your embarrassment.

[2039] It's go straight to your sadness for the coach.

[2040] It was more embarrassed.

[2041] I was embarrassed because I knew that he had to then...

[2042] Ignore it.

[2043] Uh -huh.

[2044] Oh, boy.

[2045] Could cry right now.

[2046] Oh, man. Yeah.

[2047] What a time to get your period.

[2048] It was new to my period at that time.

[2049] Go on.

[2050] So I didn't, you know.

[2051] You weren't a...

[2052] It was popping out.

[2053] Sure.

[2054] Popping off.

[2055] They're a bit irregular, though, no, at the beginning?

[2056] Or do they immediately start on a good schedule?

[2057] I think they...

[2058] Some gals get their period, then they don't get one for four months.

[2059] Yeah, that's true.

[2060] And you just don't know about time.

[2061] Like, you're not, like, thinking about it the same way.

[2062] Days and weeks.

[2063] You're not on birth control, so.

[2064] Right.

[2065] Can't really, yeah.

[2066] Anyhow.

[2067] So, Cal Penn. Culpin.

[2068] Culpin.

[2069] Culpin is his name.

[2070] Speaking of that, like, how to pronounce his name and stuff.

[2071] We were talking about where did the word advertisement start?

[2072] because you said advertisement or advertisement.

[2073] It's actually old French and then late Middle English took it from there.

[2074] Okay.

[2075] So old French.

[2076] But then old English before American.

[2077] Middle English.

[2078] Yeah.

[2079] Yeah.

[2080] So I guess advertisement is probably actually the word.

[2081] It's like Neanderthal.

[2082] Yeah.

[2083] Yeah.

[2084] I guess most of the words, if we're really thinking about it, of course.

[2085] are English.

[2086] Except for scientific and biologic contributions from the scientists in this country.

[2087] Short of that.

[2088] Yeah.

[2089] There's no words being, except for common, you know, thirsty and shit.

[2090] Right.

[2091] Like zeitgeist words.

[2092] Zygize.

[2093] Yeah.

[2094] Colloquials.

[2095] Do you think Zitegeist is a word from England?

[2096] I think that sounds Germanic.

[2097] Who it does.

[2098] Yeah.

[2099] Yeah.

[2100] Okay.

[2101] I bet it's a straight German word.

[2102] Zykeist is in the zeitgeist.

[2103] It is.

[2104] Well, totally.

[2105] Yeah.

[2106] No one said zeitgeist 15 years.

[2107] ago it got real hot i think about 10 years ago yeah that was that reminds me of a sam harris episode when they were talking about the word fractal had gotten really big in the 80s you remember that oh well no i was just a tiny baby well uh no do you remember that episode oh no it was the guy talking about scaling oh you love that the most interesting episode i've ever heard about how you can scale up almost anything you can apply it to cities you can apply it ultimately to the you know the entire earth but but if you look under a microscope at a tree you know a sliver of a tree cell you'll see that it is almost exactly what the tree itself looks like from the outside grown up and it's that's the fractal nature that the inside is exactly like the outside basically but for some reason that that term fractal really was super popular in the 80s people didn't really even know what it meant they're just saying Yeah.

[2108] Oh, like literally.

[2109] Think how many people said literally that don't really know what the word literally means.

[2110] So people were using fractal, like they were using literally.

[2111] I believe so.

[2112] What?

[2113] Yeah.

[2114] Because when they brought it up, I did remember in the mid 80s it being on TV shows and stuff, like law and order type things.

[2115] Use it in a sentence that like a not a scientist would say.

[2116] Well, that's what's weird is I can't, I don't know if I can form.

[2117] Yeah, like how are people using it?

[2118] Like, oh, you're so fractal.

[2119] Totally fractal.

[2120] Fuck, I don't know.

[2121] Let me do some supplemental research.

[2122] Are you keeping track of any of this research I've committed to do, Rob?

[2123] So much reason.

[2124] What was they doing?

[2125] Lights went out in Chicago.

[2126] Yeah, I think there were others.

[2127] But, okay, so you said when you were at UCLA, it was 42 % Asian, 39 % Caucasian.

[2128] Caucasian.

[2129] I could not find 1999 diversity stats.

[2130] Really?

[2131] Yeah, I couldn't.

[2132] That's weird because when you apply to the school and you get the little brochure, it tells you what the demographic break down in there.

[2133] But I couldn't see 99.

[2134] Huh.

[2135] But today.

[2136] Okay.

[2137] Hit me with today.

[2138] It's 28 .6 % Asian.

[2139] Okay.

[2140] 27 % white.

[2141] 21 .7 % Hispanic.

[2142] 11 .9 non -resident alien.

[2143] Well, hold down, though.

[2144] 11 .9 non -resident alien, I hate to say, is Asian.

[2145] Yeah.

[2146] Necessarily.

[2147] Oh, for sure.

[2148] The bulk of the international students are Asian.

[2149] Okay.

[2150] Like, I landed in Toronto to do buddy games, and I happened to land on the day that the students come for their visas.

[2151] And there were, oh, my God, it took me like four hours to get through the thing.

[2152] And there were just thousands of students, and they were all from Asia.

[2153] But what about Talban Shahar?

[2154] Tallben Shahar went to Harvard from Israel.

[2155] Oh, right, from Israel.

[2156] Yes, he's Israeli.

[2157] He was a non -resident alien.

[2158] Right.

[2159] So I think there's...

[2160] So we can't say they're all Asian.

[2161] No, I'm just saying I think it's a huge majority of ethnicities are on a student visa.

[2162] I think are from Asia.

[2163] We could figure that out pretty easy.

[2164] Add that to the list, right?

[2165] Let's say 10%.

[2166] Let's say 10.

[2167] I'll give you 10 out of 11 .9.

[2168] Okay, so that would bring that 28 number up to 38.

[2169] Yeah.

[2170] And then, according to...

[2171] because this was a pie chart.

[2172] Yeah, I love a pie chart.

[2173] Yeah.

[2174] And they bring one slice of the pie up a little bit, make it 3D.

[2175] Oh, sure.

[2176] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2177] I love that.

[2178] There was a very small percentage African American, very.

[2179] And a little bit tinier than that sliver, percentage, ethnicity, unknown.

[2180] Unknown.

[2181] So far, there's been a couple claims, but it seemed preposterous.

[2182] But I could see it gaining momentum, trans ethnicity.

[2183] There's been a, wait, what?

[2184] Well, there was the famous woman who was the head of the NAACP or very high up in the NACP who turned out to be white who had been claiming to be black her whole life.

[2185] Okay.

[2186] And said, I feel black and blah, blah, blah.

[2187] So we all kind of agreed that was crazy.

[2188] Yeah.

[2189] We did collectively agree that.

[2190] But at the same time, if you listen to the sincerity of her testimonial, I believe her that she believes that.

[2191] Yeah.

[2192] Oh, my God.

[2193] I can't wait to be Indian.

[2194] I hope it happens in my lifetime.

[2195] Oh, no, I'm going to be half German and half Indian.

[2196] Why?

[2197] Because I'm a germophile.

[2198] No. It can't be like I like Germans and Indian people, so I'm that.

[2199] From the outside, I think I can say it about my side of the street.

[2200] I won't hypothesize on the other side of the street.

[2201] But there are certainly a good number of white kids that are identifying way more with black culture than white culture.

[2202] so I could see them doing it, but I don't know what black guys look, you know, purposely acting like white guys and all the stereotypes looks like, and if that's a thing.

[2203] But this isn't ethnicity.

[2204] This is culture.

[2205] This is a completely different topic.

[2206] I mean, that's what we're placing on white people do this, but white people don't do one thing or another thing.

[2207] No, well, that therein lies all these problems with ethnicity is.

[2208] It's preposterously variant.

[2209] Right.

[2210] But that's all, and there's all overlap.

[2211] But that's why I think.

[2212] think it would be potentially be an easier sell.

[2213] Well, but you don't think I could feel Swedish.

[2214] Like I have always just felt Swedish.

[2215] No. Like everything I like is Swedish.

[2216] Everything the way I communicate is very Swedish.

[2217] The way I dress is Swedish.

[2218] I've always felt Swedish.

[2219] Okay.

[2220] So that's not, no, that's not you feeling Swedish.

[2221] It's you connecting with that and then taking those things on.

[2222] But I actually feel like I'm in the wrong country.

[2223] Okay.

[2224] Then move there.

[2225] Great.

[2226] But now, okay, so yeah, there's no stakes.

[2227] Hold on.

[2228] There's right.

[2229] There's no stakes in you letting me go.

[2230] But now let's take it from Sweden's point of view.

[2231] So I arrive and I go, I'm, I don't know what to tell you.

[2232] I'm Swedish.

[2233] I was in the wrong country.

[2234] They're going to say tough titties because, just because you feel like you're a citizen in their country doesn't mean you are.

[2235] Well, if you pass this, if you become a citizen, then you will be Swedish.

[2236] But they're not just going to welcome me in and give me citizenship.

[2237] Because I identified with being Swedish since I was born and always felt like I was in the wrong country.

[2238] That's less preposterous, Monica.

[2239] No, this is all crazy because I have an ethnicity that I'm not like I feel Indian.

[2240] Right.

[2241] I'm a good person to talk to about this.

[2242] People don't feel the ethnicity that they are if their culture is separate.

[2243] Right.

[2244] Well, yes, I think what you're saying is culture is much stronger than.

[2245] Incredibly.

[2246] ethnicity, yes, in the way we've divided it.

[2247] Your ethnicity is nothing without the culture.

[2248] Right, it's one of the defining.

[2249] It's the whole thing.

[2250] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2251] So you could say, like, if now aliens came here and they were picking ethnicities, they would probably divide it up.

[2252] The people in Chicago share all these similarities and they would be defined as an ethnicity.

[2253] And then, you know, it would be regional would define the ethnicity.

[2254] Because they have the same culture, you know.

[2255] what I'm saying?

[2256] To your point, like you're Indian in Georgia, so you feel white.

[2257] I did, though, but not everyone did.

[2258] And people who didn't probably had more of the Indian culture involved in their household.

[2259] Yeah.

[2260] But not the ethnicity.

[2261] It's the culture.

[2262] The culture of India was more prevalent in their house or in their world or whatever.

[2263] Mm -hmm.

[2264] This was gotten off.

[2265] It was a long detour.

[2266] I think it was maybe silly.

[2267] Sorry if it was silly.

[2268] Okay.

[2269] Is Chevy Chase named after Chevy Chase Road?

[2270] No. He said something about Maryland and then that's what I found.

[2271] Actor and comedian Chevy Chase was born Cornelius Crane Chase on October 8, 1943.

[2272] His grandmother nicknamed him Chevy Chase after the wealthy Maryland community.

[2273] Oh.

[2274] And then there's some stuff.

[2275] stuff about that.

[2276] Oh, I thought it was a completely made -up name taken from.

[2277] I'm dead wrong.

[2278] Yeah.

[2279] Okay.

[2280] So remember he did that basketball commercial that he lied about?

[2281] Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[2282] I'm going to play it with Samuel Jackson.

[2283] No look.

[2284] It's fantastic.

[2285] You got H .O. Is that right?

[2286] H .O.?

[2287] H .O. Someone improvised that.

[2288] You got an H .O. Yeah, for sure.

[2289] They filled in the gaps.

[2290] Yeah, yeah.

[2291] So that was that I remember that commercial Without even you Turning it towards me Really?

[2292] Yeah Yeah, I remember for sure And yeah you can see Cal Has to put his hand over it Is, are you okay?

[2293] Uh -huh Okay He has to put his hands over his eyes Oh So you can't even really see his face Oh well That happens It's okay he overcame Opposite first commercial experience Than you You went into that Mermaid scenario And they made you even more luxurious They did yeah Yeah, whereas they covered his face.

[2294] Yeah, and it was kind of a similar situation because I had to swim in that and I don't like swimming and I'm not very good at it.

[2295] I still did it.

[2296] So I guess it's not the same.

[2297] But it's kind of the same.

[2298] Like, I think they wanted me to be better at swimming.

[2299] Right.

[2300] What do you think is the real number that you could do in the tread?

[2301] How long do you think you could tread water?

[2302] But then I get kind of panicky, you know.

[2303] Oh, oh.

[2304] So.

[2305] Well, rule out any panic for this.

[2306] hypothetical.

[2307] Rule out.

[2308] I mean, rule out I could go forever.

[2309] No, no, no, no, no. No. Good.

[2310] You're saying your only limit is your panic?

[2311] Yeah, the mental hang up.

[2312] I think.

[2313] Oh.

[2314] Well, okay, then forget that.

[2315] Just how long do you think if I put you in a pool right now and said there's a million dollars on the other end of it?

[2316] Probably a million dollars.

[2317] Oh, so I like really have to be.

[2318] Fuck, maybe that was too high.

[2319] I think that was too high.

[2320] 50 ,000.

[2321] Oh, that's still a lot.

[2322] Okay, so there's like real money.

[2323] Great number, Rob.

[2324] There's real money involved.

[2325] There's a car involved here.

[2326] 20 minutes?

[2327] 20 minutes?

[2328] I don't even know, to be honest.

[2329] We should try it this weekend.

[2330] Well, I can only do it if there was really that kind of money attached.

[2331] So, is that what you're off?

[2332] Yeah, maybe I will.

[2333] Maybe it's worth it to find out your number.

[2334] I could probably really just do like five minutes and be, I'd be happy with five.

[2335] A little tuckered out.

[2336] Yeah.

[2337] Yeah.

[2338] all right I'm not good at it Rob put it on the list It things good You said Emily's burger is $27 It's 28 Oh Okay great Yeah 28 It's a bargain It's a bargain They are slashing prices On that burger It really is Every burger must go Oh I wish My nose got really stuffed In the last like Are you okay Five minutes Well it was a lot of yawning You were yawning Yeah we're yawning a lot Yes yes I think the week has caught up with me a little bit.

[2339] Okay, so he tells a sort of startling story about Nike's manufacturing and people's hands getting cut off.

[2340] Oh, uh -huh.

[2341] Yeah.

[2342] Their current labor policy is much better, but people still, I mean, I have this long thing here, but you can't stop yawning, so I'm not.

[2343] No, no, no, no, no, please.

[2344] I'm having so much fun.

[2345] No, no, but really is wrong.

[2346] I'm so sorry, I'll cover my face.

[2347] No, no. I don't want you to, I don't want you to.

[2348] I don't know you're yawning.

[2349] No, you won't.

[2350] Sometimes I will be.

[2351] Sometimes I won't be.

[2352] No, but there's a lot of like minimum wage issues currently with them, but they've, they've come a long way because they got really called out big time for some of these practices.

[2353] So they've come a long way, but there's a long way to go with wage.

[2354] But I do like the Kaepernick thing.

[2355] and they did like a really cool commercial about like female empowerment recently.

[2356] I like that they're doing that.

[2357] I mean, obviously, I don't want it to just be like the front facing thing.

[2358] I want them to be doing good stuff for people who really need it.

[2359] Yeah.

[2360] Yeah.

[2361] You know, I know nothing about that subject, to be honest.

[2362] So I'm not taking any position.

[2363] But I will say, I don't think you can totally be honest without acknowledging that people's love for a brand really explains how much fallout they'll be over it because just people fucking love nikes i know like is whatever they do it's going to be a lot easier to boycott fucking avias than nike yeah it's like when if you find out mac did something bad generally people are like well i'm still buying a fucking iphone i know and weirdly that becomes some of the measure of how quickly people go down to the artists like michael jackson that shit was on the wall for so so so so long you've been accused in the 80s and just we loved him so much his music as product that we weren't excited to boycott yes i think obviously the level of sacrifice gets factored in yeah yeah i mean even like right now there's like some stuff going on with the founder of equinox oh right right right right yeah and so i i know i know a lot of people who are like uh yeah what do we do because they love Equinox.

[2364] Yeah.

[2365] Okay, well, it's just so real quick.

[2366] So, for example, in Vietnam, where Nike has 91 finished goods factories and over 400 ,000 workers, the minimum wage is approximately $150 U .S. per month, basically the price of a pair of Nike flying it, while the living wage is estimated at $290.

[2367] Those conversations are always get complex because the people that are there that want to work can want those jobs.

[2368] And if we protest on our side of this ocean and make them pay a price that eventually Nike's like, well, then it's just as cheap to do it here or somewhere else, then they lose all that.

[2369] And they're like, thanks for the help.

[2370] Yeah.

[2371] That's where they get complicated.

[2372] I think obviously they should be paid.

[2373] That's not what I'm saying.

[2374] I'm just saying it.

[2375] Right.

[2376] It still would cost astronomically more to do it here.

[2377] Yeah.

[2378] as opposed to paying $2 .90.

[2379] Yeah, $2 .90.

[2380] Yeah.

[2381] Yeah.

[2382] Anyway.

[2383] Okay.

[2384] So he said that women have a better sense of smell.

[2385] Oh.

[2386] And I was like, yes, that's right.

[2387] You've always felt that way.

[2388] I've always felt that way.

[2389] You said you might, that might explain why men fart more.

[2390] Oh, okay.

[2391] Which may or may not be.

[2392] I can't find evidence of that.

[2393] Probably a lot of layers to that.

[2394] I still think that's male arrogance, but.

[2395] Yeah, male arrogance.

[2396] Boys will be boys.

[2397] Maybe we do produce more farts, though.

[2398] Is that possible?

[2399] Would you feel a little less angry at us if you knew that we biologically were producing?

[2400] I wouldn't actually be surprised about that.

[2401] Yeah, because I really believe that's the case because Kristen will fart as much as she wants around me and you and her friends.

[2402] And her farts are one to 50 of mine.

[2403] You mean numbers -wise?

[2404] Yeah.

[2405] Quantity.

[2406] Now the quality's there.

[2407] When it happens, I'm not saying the quality is not fierce.

[2408] What I'm saying is the quantity is, uh, well, I agree because, but no. Because when you, when you're with your childhood best friends, who I presume you would all feel comfortable farting.

[2409] I don't feel.

[2410] I don't fart around people.

[2411] You've never farted.

[2412] I mean, not never, but.

[2413] On accident?

[2414] On accident for sure.

[2415] Sure.

[2416] When you like jump into the air, you've probably let a couple of hours.

[2417] When you clench your whole body.

[2418] Who hasn't?

[2419] You just hope that the smell stays up there.

[2420] But you've never heard me fart.

[2421] No. Unfortunately, no. And I'm trying to think.

[2422] How about your parents?

[2423] Do you fart in front of your parents?

[2424] You must.

[2425] But like, no, I don't.

[2426] You don't.

[2427] And it's not like I'm like.

[2428] You're not fighting them off.

[2429] I'm not.

[2430] Oh my God.

[2431] For me to not fart, I am fighting.

[2432] I mean, like, full, the hardest fight of my life.

[2433] Okay.

[2434] And how many times?

[2435] And it's painful.

[2436] Sometimes I have that, but it's rare.

[2437] Oh, once a day I have to brutally, all last night at the concert.

[2438] Oh, you did?

[2439] Yeah, I was like, fucking, hey, I've gone an hour and a half without farting.

[2440] It's been so hard.

[2441] Why didn't you just fart?

[2442] That would have been a great place to do it.

[2443] It was loud.

[2444] There were so many people that you could have blamed it on.

[2445] I don't know.

[2446] You farted in front of me. Yeah, but I think I was pretty confident it was going to be odorless.

[2447] If I'm confident that it's odorless, sure, I'll crack those out.

[2448] You could not have been confident because you were farting after we had White Castle.

[2449] You're right.

[2450] That's very cocky.

[2451] Yeah.

[2452] But I can feel when the White Castle has taken effect.

[2453] And I knew they had it.

[2454] Because remember when I got out of the van to throw the big carcass away, the huge bag.

[2455] Yeah.

[2456] Remember when I was out of the trash can I farted.

[2457] And when I got back in the van, I said they turned.

[2458] Okay.

[2459] Yeah.

[2460] And I knew, see, I had let several out before that trash can because I could tell at the trash can, there's a different.

[2461] There's a different temperature to this.

[2462] Anywho, you ways might have more farts in your body, maybe.

[2463] Well, look at Ryan.

[2464] Ryan farts so much, so much.

[2465] But I wonder if it's one of these things.

[2466] This is another theory.

[2467] What if the more you do it, the more you produce?

[2468] Actually, I really think that's true Because I do it very little And I don't have very many farts And so I think it was like a lifetime My body has just gotten used to not doing that To reabsorving those gases Yes, and you have been letting farts out Since day one, like nonstop Well, I was going to go with the sibling theory Which is I have a sibling I have two siblings Yeah My daughters who are siblings They fart as much as I do Those kids fart nonstop, right?

[2469] And then Brian had an older brother.

[2470] But I have sibling, a sibling.

[2471] Well, but eight years younger than you.

[2472] So you didn't really go through a farting together phase, did you?

[2473] Your kids don't fart because of each other.

[2474] They fart because of you.

[2475] Because you're always talking about farts and poop and all that stuff.

[2476] That's why.

[2477] Uh -oh.

[2478] Uh -oh.

[2479] So they're going to learn.

[2480] They're going to learn.

[2481] I fear the hard way.

[2482] Oh, I've talked about this.

[2483] Yeah.

[2484] I've said you really, you mislead your children because all people let their kids fart.

[2485] I mean, I think it's funny.

[2486] You have to let them.

[2487] And then they get into a class and at some grade without any warning, they let one rip.

[2488] And everyone thinks they're the most disgusting person alive.

[2489] And we didn't warn them about that at all.

[2490] We celebrate their farts.

[2491] We laugh.

[2492] Well, yeah.

[2493] And it's honest because your family's farts don't smell as bad as strangers' farts.

[2494] Like when the girl's fart, it doesn't bother me at all.

[2495] Even when they're stinky.

[2496] Right.

[2497] It doesn't bother me. Yeah, maybe with your kids.

[2498] I'm sure with your kids, it's different.

[2499] Yeah.

[2500] Yeah.

[2501] Chris doesn't bother me at all.

[2502] Yeah.

[2503] I can extend that to you.

[2504] No, thank you.

[2505] That's what I'm saying.

[2506] Maybe you can retrain your butt.

[2507] I think I'll path to far.

[2508] I don't like the idea of your body absorbing all this gas.

[2509] Well, it does.

[2510] It seems like it should be expelled, don't you think.

[2511] Yeah, it doesn't just have a bubble of gas rolling around your body.

[2512] Well, I think it's my superpower.

[2513] Yeah, you must have a different biome.

[2514] You're just not.

[2515] I do have a good biome.

[2516] Yeah, you really do.

[2517] That we think.

[2518] Good biome.

[2519] Great bio.

[2520] Okay, anyway, so there was a study about this.

[2521] The team calculated the number of cells in the olfactory bulbs of these individuals.

[2522] On average, women had 43 % more cells in this brain region, the olfactory section, than the men, when they included only neurons in the count that is leaving out other cells like glial or structural cells.

[2523] the figure went up to nearly 50%.

[2524] The authors acknowledge that just this finding, that just finding this difference is not enough to prove that women have a superior sense of smell.

[2525] It's not even enough to explain the findings of previous studies about differences in ability to differentiate, identify, and remember sense and odors.

[2526] However, this professor suggests, quote, generally speaking, larger brains with larger numbers of neurons correlate with the functional complexity provided by these brains.

[2527] Thus, it makes sense to think that more neurons and the female olfactory bulbs would provide women with higher olfactory sensitivity.

[2528] This is so easy to launch an evolutionary theory on.

[2529] Okay.

[2530] Which is a woman 150 ,000 years ago has a baby.

[2531] She's out gathering, right?

[2532] She's sniffing around for fucking fruit and veggies.

[2533] And if you, that's a sense you have that's heightened, you're going to bring in more food for your family.

[2534] You're going to pass those jeans on.

[2535] Bingo bango bongo.

[2536] Well, that's a real thing for women when they are nursing, their sense of smell.

[2537] and pregnant.

[2538] I think maybe nursing only.

[2539] I don't know.

[2540] Pregnancy, nursing, one of those, both, I don't know.

[2541] But their sense of smell gets really good because of like being able to sniff out like poison.

[2542] Oh, wow.

[2543] Yeah.

[2544] Right.

[2545] Hmm.

[2546] Interesting.

[2547] I dig it.

[2548] So, okay, what year did my dad come here?

[2549] You said you thought mid -80s.

[2550] And I said, no, I don't think so.

[2551] And I really should have been more confident about that because I was born in 1987.

[2552] Right.

[2553] He's definitely been here way longer than two years.

[2554] Right.

[2555] He came in 1979.

[2556] Oh, wow.

[2557] Okay.

[2558] So I was four years old.

[2559] Okay.

[2560] So he talks a little about the Asian Exclusion Act that prevented Asians from coming here.

[2561] And then in the mid -60s, it was repealed.

[2562] That was the Immigration Act of 1924, or the Johnson Reed Act, including the Asian Exclusion Act, in that.

[2563] It was a United States federal law that prevented immigration from Asia.

[2564] Yeah.

[2565] And then it was repealed, reversed.

[2566] The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, also known as the Heart Seller Act, signed into law by Lyndon B. Johnson.

[2567] Uh -huh.

[2568] I'll be Jack.

[2569] Mm -hmm.

[2570] Took away that policy.

[2571] Oh.

[2572] Yeah.

[2573] Okay.

[2574] So he said he named his character Garrett because his parents in the show, his parents liked the facts of life.

[2575] and then the garrets Yes Which is funny because that I mean That's like a fictional part of his story But that's like Mindy's Kind of real story Oh really?

[2576] Yeah because her real name's Vera Okay It's Vera Mindy Mindy's her middle name From Mork and Mindy Yeah Oh wow Yeah Oh that's really cute I know isn't it?

[2577] Yeah like if I moved to India As I will Yeah and I fell in love With this cute TV show And there is this young cute on it.

[2578] And I took her name and gave it to my cocazoid.

[2579] Yeah.

[2580] That'd be cute.

[2581] That would be.

[2582] That is all.

[2583] That's all?

[2584] Yeah.

[2585] All right.

[2586] Well, let's have a really fun week, okay?

[2587] Okay.

[2588] Because it's, it's your birthday month.

[2589] Oh, wow.

[2590] Yeah.

[2591] I wish I knew that at the beginning of the month.

[2592] It is the end of the night.

[2593] No, no, it starts on your birthday and then you get a month.

[2594] That can't be.

[2595] Yeah, that's how it is.

[2596] Really?

[2597] Yeah, that's how we do it.

[2598] But there are so many birthdays is happening after mine like Jess's birthday and your sobriety birthday those are next in a couple weeks yeah so those then take precedent I got you a present over the last couple days you I told you not to do that uh well tough tities okay thanks you're welcome I love you love you follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2599] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts.

[2600] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.