South Beach Sessions - Michelle Beadle

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[10] Proximo.

[11] Jersey City, New Jersey.

[12] Welcome to South Beach Sessions.

[13] West Coast, we brought all the resources out here.

[14] Look, all the way from Miami.

[15] We brought all the resources.

[16] Michelle Beadle is here.

[17] You could catch her now.

[18] Beetle and Decker.

[19] Her name is first, not Decker.

[20] It's Sirius XM Mad Dog Sports Radio.

[21] And I've known her a long time on television, or felt like I've known her, but I really don't know if you and I have ever had a conversation where we've been in person.

[22] Nope.

[23] We've never been in the same city at the same time.

[24] So this is the first.

[25] All right.

[26] Well, we're going to go, I want to go deep.

[27] I want to go deep because I want to know the roots of this.

[28] You are exceptional at television.

[29] I think you're better at television than I am.

[30] I've always been just okay at television, and I admire you for a number of different reasons, one of which you made Colin Cowherd better.

[31] When Colin Cowherd was at ESPN, I had some conversations with him about how to partner with people and whether he should partner with people and where.

[32] and this was after you, just on his radio show.

[33] But when I watched you on television with him, you prodded him and you did the right things to make someone who's a very strong talent be better than he was.

[34] And it sort of was my introduction to you.

[35] This woman is very natural on television.

[36] And this is not everyone he is.

[37] There's a lot of stiffness, a lot of starch, and it always seemed hugely authentic to me. Thank you.

[38] I wish I could say there was a lot of studying went into it.

[39] Unfortunately, no studying went into it.

[40] And so I'm just sort of like honored and flattered when people say that.

[41] But at the same time, I think to myself, I don't know what else I could have been.

[42] Like this kind of it's.

[43] Well, you prefer doing it though, right?

[44] 100%.

[45] I think, you know, you prepare as much as you can as far as the content or the subject.

[46] But really, it's listening.

[47] I mean, you know it.

[48] You can have a thousand questions ready to go in your mind.

[49] But if this person takes it there, then you need to be listening.

[50] And nothing irritates me more when I'm watching television.

[51] or doing television with someone and they don't do that and you can see them sort of thinking about what they're going to say next and I'm like, it takes you out of it.

[52] And so if you're actually inquisitive, it's actually pretty easy gig.

[53] Yes and no though, right?

[54] Because you were very good about sort of removing the artifice of television.

[55] Like I always thought that I was getting the real you as if she weren't necessarily knowing that she was being watched when obviously she knows she's being watched.

[56] But it would have been the same you that I would have found, in a bar, you know, after a game.

[57] Worse language, but yes, pretty much the same person.

[58] And so how the path is a super unusual one, right?

[59] Because you were going to be a lawyer.

[60] That's what I want.

[61] I wanted to be a lawyer since I was like six years old.

[62] And then as I got older, I wanted to go to politics because I was going to save the world.

[63] Like every other person thinks they're going to when they're young.

[64] And when I got to the University of Texas in Austin, I'd been such a like an overachiever up until that point.

[65] And then all of a sudden I was living on.

[66] my own, basically, in a dorm with, like, a couple of friends, no parents, no curfew, no anything.

[67] And I just got there.

[68] I did the first few, you know, semesters.

[69] And I was like, okay, I did all the pre -law things you're supposed to do.

[70] And then one day I'm looking around as pre -law fraternity.

[71] And everyone in there was just wired differently.

[72] I can't even put it into words.

[73] I just remember looking around going this, nope, mm -mm.

[74] And that was kind of it.

[75] And I really, I just sort of stopped going to class, ultimately dropping out with like, maybe a semester left to go or maybe two.

[76] And I just left.

[77] And my parents were like, what?

[78] I mean, this is the girl that if I got like an A minus, it was a big deal and I have an ulcer about it.

[79] All of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, I'm not into it.

[80] And I didn't know what else to do because I thought I was going to be a lawyer for at that point, you know, 18 years, 12 years, whatever the hell it is.

[81] And so I just left.

[82] I really just left for like three years.

[83] I traveled for a little bit, made my way back to San Antonio, started waiting tables, and my dad was like, what are you doing?

[84] But he's not the kind of guy that doesn't get in your face.

[85] He's not confrontational that way.

[86] My mom is.

[87] She was loud.

[88] And I'll never forget, my dad's like, you really should go talk to my friend Lawrence Payne.

[89] And I'm like, whatever, who happened to be president of the Spurs at the time.

[90] And I go there, just no idea why he's sending me here.

[91] And I'm like, okay, I sit in this room.

[92] Obviously, I love the Spurs, but, okay, I've no sports are not even entering my mind.

[93] And so he's sitting there, he's like, what is your plan?

[94] Like, what are you planning on doing?

[95] I was like, well, I don't know.

[96] All the dumb answers that a person with zero plan has.

[97] And it's basically him yelling at me instead of my dad to get my shit together.

[98] So then I'm like, well, could I do something here?

[99] Like, that's how naive and dumb I was.

[100] He's like, no, you need to go back to school and finish.

[101] I was like, what about an internship?

[102] So it's like, maybe you can be an intern.

[103] And that was kind of, I started bothering the broadcasting department.

[104] I would, I would call, I would repeatedly call, no one would call me back.

[105] And I was like, all right, I guess I'll enroll at UTSA and do all that.

[106] And then ultimately, they call me back.

[107] And honestly, it's like, I don't believe that things happen for a reason, but it's crazy to think had I not bugged them and had they not let me be an intern and ultimately let me try to be in front of a camera.

[108] Like, I don't know what I would have done.

[109] I really have no clue what would have happened.

[110] I want to cover so much of that.

[111] I've got a lot of questions.

[112] That's where your love of the Spurs comes from, that they sort of saved your path.

[113] They really did.

[114] Like, they did.

[115] I mean, I already was a fan, but there's a difference between being a fan and feeling invested.

[116] Like, I love them.

[117] Genuinely love them.

[118] Those three years, though, take me through.

[119] You said your mom was loud.

[120] Loud about you were doing the wrong thing or just generally loud.

[121] Well, both.

[122] But just like doing that.

[123] I think there was a disappointment because I was, I'm the oldest.

[124] I was such a good student.

[125] I played sport.

[126] I did all the stuff you're supposed to be as the good kid.

[127] And now all of a sudden the good kid is like with zero idea what she's going to do.

[128] When you say it, I'm like thinking if their parents, do they think you have a drug problem?

[129] Like it seems so, it seems so far out of kids.

[130] If you're if you're maniac about law school of all things and you're good at it and then right at the end, you're like, ah.

[131] No. And the funny part was too is I was still nerdy.

[132] I like I never had a stuff of alcohol.

[133] I told me. 21st birthday and at that point I was sort of working for a hockey team in Austin like it was just a weird as I'm leaving um yeah they just I think they were obviously worried how could you not be worried you have to figure your life out and I didn't have any answers it was sort of like what happened all the money in the checking account I don't have any answers and you know when you when you're a teenager your parents assume the worst but I never had those vices and I still don't knock on wood and so it's just sort of like I don't know which is probably more frustrating as a parent to hear, then I have a drug problem.

[134] Well, it seems crazy for you to say, I don't know, and then do the essentially flee.

[135] Yes, like leave, just leave.

[136] And I remember I went to like Pensacola, I basically got in my geostorm, put whatever crap I could fit in there, went to Florida for a little bit.

[137] Ultimately, I knew a guy with friends with a guy that played hockey for this minor league team.

[138] So went up to Canada, spent some time up there.

[139] And then eventually I was just like, this is not, what am I doing?

[140] And so I remember, I told my parents, I was like, all right, I'm coming home.

[141] And I thought, ooh, I have a good idea.

[142] I'll do it on my own.

[143] So I'm going to get on a Greyhound bus and I'm going to make it back to San Antonio.

[144] Was that a chapter?

[145] I learned a lot about travel and things that people have to go through that are forced to do it that way.

[146] They treat them like garbage.

[147] And I made it as far as Dallas.

[148] And then as soon as we got Dallas and the bus station, I remember the guy next to me who clearly was not okay and was.

[149] urinating all over the sidewalk next to me. I was like, I called my dial.

[150] I was like, can I just have a Southwest ticket from Dallas to San Antonio?

[151] And I think they were just so happy that like, okay, something's about to happen, maybe.

[152] And so is that rock bottom on being lost?

[153] Yeah, I think so.

[154] I mean, kind of, because when I got back to San Antonio, I still didn't know what I wanted to do.

[155] I got a job.

[156] I mean, I obviously worked and got an apartment and did all that, but it was like, what What am I going to do?

[157] TV, none of this.

[158] I wasn't a, I'm not an extrovert by any stretch.

[159] Despite what we do for a living, I think people still think that's weird, but, you know, I don't, I'm not comfortable speaking to a big room of people.

[160] And I certainly wasn't then.

[161] So in no way was this even on the radar.

[162] And that's scary to not know.

[163] I'm stunned to hear you say that you're not in any way an extrovert.

[164] You're not a wallflower, right?

[165] You're not shy.

[166] No. But you present on, I mean, you present on television as extroverted.

[167] Yeah, no, I'm painfully introverted at times.

[168] Like, I have to tell myself, it's funny, when Bill Walton passed, I remember thinking to myself, like, I really need to live more.

[169] Like, I'm not doing a good job embracing life.

[170] And it's weird that we, our brains work that way where we attach it to someone who we barely know, baby you've met a few times.

[171] And then, but then you suck back in to like, I guess I'm just going to watch six hours of crappy television and go to sleep.

[172] I'm trying.

[173] It's so hard.

[174] But it's not natural for me at all.

[175] Because those are two different things you're talking about because a lot of people would look at what it is that we're doing and assume a happiness there.

[176] And I have struggled with joy for a long time.

[177] Like I don't do any of this.

[178] I started as a writer, right?

[179] So all of this, all of this is by accident.

[180] And it's not.

[181] This is stumbled into and I'll do the performative parts of it because it's where.

[182] It's where the growth has been, the evolution, there's been some fun in it, but I'm surprised to hear you say that you're a person who wasn't really made for television because generally speaking, when I'm watching people who are good at television.

[183] That's what I think.

[184] I think, oh, you went to Syracuse and Northwestern.

[185] That's why you're here.

[186] You learned how to do it.

[187] Yeah, you're good.

[188] Like, I look at a greenie, and I'm like, Greenie is supposed to be doing that.

[189] That is, he can get you from A to B. He can do all the boring read stuff that you have to do that's part of it, the pay the bills and all that.

[190] And it's just like he's made for that.

[191] Yeah.

[192] So when I see people like that, that's what I think of as this was always your plan.

[193] Tell me about, though, the feeling of being among the other lawyers, like the visceral, the visceral in your body feeling of I don't belong here.

[194] I remember them talking about something about like the starting salary, some firm.

[195] And let's not get it twisted.

[196] I'm not by any means like a hippie that's like, I don't need money.

[197] I love money.

[198] We all love money.

[199] It makes life a little easier.

[200] But I remember them talking in a way and they were so snotty about it.

[201] And my initial reasons for wanting to go into law is I really did.

[202] I thought I was going to save the world.

[203] Like I'm going to help the people that can't help themselves and we're going to start doing that.

[204] I even interned at the state capital to try to like get my idea of how this all works.

[205] And as they're talking about all this, I was like, I think these people suck.

[206] and it's funny now because that's a young person's view of a room, right?

[207] Now I could be like, okay, they do suck, but that has nothing to do with what I'm going to do.

[208] I didn't think of it that way then.

[209] And so I just thought, oh, this world is this?

[210] Nope, don't want anything to do with it.

[211] Oh, but I don't belong here.

[212] Such a strong feeling.

[213] Like, it doesn't, you're talking.

[214] When you said it, you moved away from it.

[215] Like, I don't like how this group of people interact with each other and talk.

[216] And it's so judgy.

[217] I know it is.

[218] But whatever it was in that moment, was a switch.

[219] But is that you, are you a person?

[220] I would have a hard time setting out on a goal, dedicating a great deal of investment to that's what I'm going to be.

[221] And then just one day a feeling arrives and I'm like, this isn't for me anymore.

[222] Kind of is.

[223] I am, it's weird.

[224] I'm, I guess a little, I make some rash decisions.

[225] Like, I've done it with like real estate and stuff like that.

[226] Like, you know, I will buy a house and sell a house.

[227] My dog dies in one house, then I'm not going to live here anymore.

[228] I'm selling this house.

[229] And I do make sort of big decisions quickly versus I'm not a thinker when it comes to that.

[230] It's just like whatever the vibe by feeling is.

[231] I go with that.

[232] And it has worked, but it also probably hasn't.

[233] Is that following your heart?

[234] Yeah.

[235] I think it's just something, it's like I just feel it.

[236] And there's no convincing me otherwise.

[237] And does it serve you always or are you trusted or, well, you just said it's not, it's not always because it comes with some scars.

[238] I mean, certain things.

[239] Like, I probably could have played the game better at certain steps.

[240] But to be honest with you, I'm glad I did things the way I've done them so far.

[241] Like, yeah, have I burned some bridges?

[242] Sure.

[243] But I also don't regret those particular bridges.

[244] I feel like how I felt about either the circumstances or the people involved, I still feel that way.

[245] So there was no other way, in my mind, to do certain things.

[246] I've heard you talk, and I haven't heard a lot of people say this in our interest, in our industry about the politics of it being dirty, filthy, something that I haven't heard a lot of successful people talk about it that way.

[247] I think because you're really supposed to just be like, oh, man, my life's kicking ass, and so why dwell on the negative?

[248] And there's a difference between, to me, talking about things and dwelling.

[249] Like, I don't dwell on anything that's happened in my past.

[250] things happened, things were great, things weren't, and we're all where we are now.

[251] So, but talking about it, I don't see there's an issue with it as well, because it does happen.

[252] Like, there are shitty ways that people do things in, in every business, I'm sure, but I can only speak on this one.

[253] And, you know, I've seen it.

[254] I've listened to it.

[255] I've had it done, you know, watched people doing it, talking about how they're doing it.

[256] And it just, it was always such a weird way to go about it, like manipulating the system or manipulating the system or manipulation.

[257] manipulating the press in a way.

[258] And I just, I don't know.

[259] Look, if it gets people to where they want to be good on you, I suppose.

[260] But my conscience is clean.

[261] It sounds like you have some of the feeling around television executives that you did around those lawyers, where you're like, no, but I'm going to stay in the industry because I kind of like the end.

[262] I kind of like how this is fun and games.

[263] Because I love, when I'm working, I love the people that I'm working with, with the exception of one human ever.

[264] And I don't have to be around the people that normally are who I'm having an.

[265] issue with.

[266] So, you know, as long as we part ways and kind of stay out of each other's way, it's been great.

[267] And yeah, I just, some are not great.

[268] Look, no industry's perfect.

[269] And I'm sure we all have our complaints.

[270] I'm so enlightened now.

[271] You're different, though, right?

[272] Like, you've learned some things.

[273] One of the things that I've wanted to do with this is put people who have accrued wisdoms in front of the cameras to talk about the things that they've learned.

[274] Like, Your perspective must be so much different.

[275] You have won at this industry, but you've also been battered by it.

[276] You've fought with it a little bit because you insist on getting what you're worth, and I'm not talking about money.

[277] Like just being valued.

[278] Like being respected and not treated like garbage.

[279] Yeah, it's weird.

[280] Like the money's great.

[281] And sort of in a warped way, it's the scoreboard of how we all keep track of all of this crap.

[282] But it was more about sort of just treatment of everyone.

[283] And, you know, I never fought down, always fight up.

[284] That's my one thing.

[285] It's like you can't fight down.

[286] And I think this business also gets a bad rep for on -air people who are just, they treat the ones around them gross.

[287] And I was paranoid about that.

[288] Like, that's not who I would want to be.

[289] That's not how I would ever want to operate.

[290] But in hindsight, you probably wouldn't burn as many bridges if you just fought down.

[291] I'd be a garbage person, but at least I would have, you know.

[292] You have no regrets, though.

[293] You're a fighter.

[294] No, I don't.

[295] To not have regrets about burnt bridges when this industry can be cruel about how it allows anybody to age.

[296] I mean, NBA is going to NBC.

[297] Damn it, I burned that bridge.

[298] I've napalmed it.

[299] I guess I'm not going to get that job.

[300] But, yeah, no, it is, it's a weird small world.

[301] And we all sort of get recycled and the suits get recycled.

[302] and ultimately who you don't know who's going to end up where, which is also fun to watch and observe.

[303] But, yeah, I don't think I've burnt any ties that I would have regret.

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[314] You've had a lot of unusual jobs.

[315] Yeah.

[316] Go through some of them for me and what do you regard as the most unusual of the jobs?

[317] I don't know.

[318] In sports alone, sideline reporting on bull riding is strange enough.

[319] It's called shoot reporter.

[320] Excuse me. Sorry.

[321] My apologies.

[322] Especially for a person who, yes, I grew up in Texas, but I'd never even been to a rodeo.

[323] So it was like a new language, like legit learning a language.

[324] But I also worked for like the travel channel and I did a dating show for them, the animal planet.

[325] You remember Linda Ellerby who was like the journalist?

[326] Yes, a journalist.

[327] So she was like an icon basically to women, especially at the time.

[328] she was one of those women that also just a ball buster.

[329] And weirdly was EP of an Animal Planet show that brought me on as a host.

[330] And famously tough on television.

[331] Famously.

[332] Like in a way that you're like almost could teach people at the time, right?

[333] Oh, a strong woman on television who's not having to be demure because she's getting in there and throwing elbows.

[334] Oh, tough broad.

[335] Tough broad.

[336] And she was, I mean, a badass.

[337] And she had me over to her stunning, you know, six.

[338] story townhouse in West Village.

[339] And at that point, you know, I didn't even really live in New York yet.

[340] I just gotten to everything.

[341] So I was just like, oh, my God.

[342] And she was just so cool.

[343] And I remember watching her.

[344] She didn't even have to tell me anything.

[345] There was not necessarily advice in so many words.

[346] It was just watching her.

[347] And I remember thinking, like, okay, you don't have to be a certain way.

[348] And she also allowed dogs in the office, which at that time was unheard of.

[349] And I thought that was really cool.

[350] But I Linda Ellard was out.

[351] of dogs is unreasonable.

[352] We'll get to that in a second.

[353] Well, unreasonable.

[354] Yeah, no, she was one of the first sort of bosses that I had that I was like, oh, maybe that was a bad thing to have her early on.

[355] And then sort of be like after that going, where's Linda Ellerby?

[356] But that was a great sort of first start.

[357] An Animal Planet was just, it's a weird.

[358] It was like a news show about animals and just me at a desk, just reading a teleprompter.

[359] So there've been some weird gigs, you know, travel channel where you You go to hotels, and here's my martini butler.

[360] Check out this room.

[361] Like, weird stuff.

[362] And then ultimately made my way strictly into sports.

[363] You didn't even get into...

[364] Oh, access?

[365] No, the breeding of greyhounds.

[366] Yeah, I did do that in Canada for that period of time.

[367] Which, no, they were great days.

[368] Okay.

[369] The big ones.

[370] Yeah, yeah.

[371] And because the person that I knew, like, their family friends, it was Peterborough, Ontario, and this was their business.

[372] And so I sort of, like, got to hang out and help.

[373] I didn't physically do much because it's a weird.

[374] It's all weird.

[375] But just to be around the dogs, I count that as helping.

[376] Well, where'd that start?

[377] The love of the love of animals, the love of dogs, the love of dogs.

[378] Unreasonable is the wrong word.

[379] But it's large.

[380] It's larger than sometimes people might think is healthy.

[381] But I don't know.

[382] I mean, we had normal pets growing up.

[383] I wouldn't say we were like over the top or anything.

[384] But I do remember like being at a pet store once with my parents, like at a mall.

[385] and there was a pug, like a puppy pug in a cage, and I just sat there and started crying.

[386] And they're like, what is going on?

[387] I was like, this pug needs to be saved.

[388] Like, we can't leave this pug.

[389] And then all the animals need to come out of here.

[390] So it was like this whole thing.

[391] And they're like, but we can't, we can't have a dog right now, blah, blah, blah.

[392] And I was like, okay.

[393] And it was just always in the back of my mind like, oh, I'm going to save all the dogs.

[394] It's going to be fine.

[395] And I just, they bring me just joy, like just immense.

[396] also heartache unlike some things that you've ever experienced but it's just the joy is so worth it just to give them a great life and you know some of these dogs like I like to adopt the older ones now that have sort of ended up at shelters it's like it's shit what people do to animals and so if all I can do is give them a couple of great years in the end then that's my duty I never wanted kids so I have the money to spare to like that's what I want to do with my cash And so that's sort of been my, it's my, I wish I had time to do more or land to do more someday, someday.

[397] My wife likes animals like that.

[398] And most people I have met who love animals that way generally feel that the innocence and the purity of those animals makes them better than people.

[399] Like they're just, you like them more than people because there's not a lot of bad stuff there.

[400] No, if anything, bad things happen to them, which then in turn makes me angrier again at humans.

[401] And so it's like this vicious cycle of your sweet and pure and perfect and you're an asshole who hurt this creature.

[402] And like it just goes, it goes, it goes.

[403] Before we came on here, we were talking about some other stuff and you just mentioned throughout casually, you're like, I'm not a trusting person.

[404] I don't.

[405] So what is the stories behind that?

[406] God, I don't know.

[407] I, you know, I don't know if we watch too many television shows.

[408] Look, working in sports doesn't help, obviously.

[409] A woman working in sports, the things you see, the things you hear from a. like a male -female relationship, like your own personal relationships.

[410] It's impossible to not somehow have that in your mind always.

[411] But I've just never been a trusting person.

[412] I think it's maybe a cynicism that's just kind of inherent in me a little bit.

[413] I wouldn't say it necessarily comes from either parent, although my mom definitely was more of a questioner of people's motives and intentions.

[414] Never.

[415] I've never been, now I'm in a pretty healthy relationship.

[416] but before this, like, not one person did I trust.

[417] So much so that I probably purposely picked out unavailable human being so that I never had to deal or be committed.

[418] Okay, but that's not paranoid.

[419] Like that sounds like you correct me. I can't know what your possible roots are here.

[420] But I would assume that it doesn't begin that way, that you start trusting and then the things reveal themselves.

[421] You're not inherently a paranoid person who's distrustful.

[422] That's learned.

[423] It's learned, but nothing had happened at that point special to me that would be like, oh, I see why she's like this.

[424] Like, nothing, really.

[425] I mean, dumb little young relationships, what have you.

[426] I don't think I ever was fully invested in any of them either, which is probably a self -defense mechanism, I'm sure.

[427] But just I'm not a trusting.

[428] I don't think people are inherently good, which I know is cause for a 75 -hour conversation.

[429] But I don't.

[430] I think a lot of us do bad things.

[431] If given the choice, we try to get away with things or be sneaky and, you know, it can be levels to it, too.

[432] I'm not saying we're criminals, but just, you know, get away with stuff maybe.

[433] And I, that's, I don't like that.

[434] I don't like that at all.

[435] You have the Linda Ellerby tough broad stuff, you know?

[436] Like, I don't know.

[437] I'm not sure whether or not in sports television.

[438] vision, you were allowed to show that portion of yourself.

[439] But whatever was happening behind the scenes, you clearly have that.

[440] Yeah.

[441] Yeah.

[442] I mean, you had to.

[443] I think the funny thing is, is what we do is not rocket science, right?

[444] Like, we're talking about sports.

[445] This is 99 .9 % of the time it's fun.

[446] Yes, serious things do happen and then they need to be addressed.

[447] But when that starts to get clouded by sort of the stuff behind the scenes, it is a bummer to me. Because again, I didn't set out to do any of this.

[448] This was all accidental.

[449] So I didn't have like a five -year plan and a 10 -year plan.

[450] It was just sort of like taking jobs as they came and like, oh, this sounds, oh, I'm going to Hawaii for a week for a job.

[451] That's cool.

[452] Or oh, I'm traveling with the nets for a season.

[453] That's fun.

[454] Like, that's how I looked at jobs.

[455] Part of that is good.

[456] But then the other part is when it stops being fun, which is what most reality is for a lot of people, then I would immediately start to recoil and be like, Why is this?

[457] More times than not figure it out, move on.

[458] But when it starts to be like everything behind the scenes, like whether it be executives or pitting women against each other in the workplace for like the one job that exists, which is absurd, by the way.

[459] But so, but so you, look, look, you were surrounded at all points by apes and cavemen.

[460] You, you might like, and it's everywhere.

[461] It's on social media.

[462] It's sports.

[463] fans in general, it's anytime you make some sort of error on television, God forbid, that you make an error.

[464] I learned this at highly questionable when I saw the level of preparation that the women who were coming on to the show were coming on with because they couldn't make a mistake and I'm coming out with mac and cheese in my beard and how unfair it was because they were not allowed a mistake.

[465] And you were before all of these women on ESS.

[466] when the cavemen were even more primitive than they're being than now.

[467] They're the best, aren't they?

[468] The mouth breathers.

[469] I like lovingly refer to them.

[470] Yeah, but I also felt like, you know, I'm already a sports fan.

[471] So we're consuming input all day long.

[472] Our phones are constantly like news, breaking, oh, did you see this?

[473] So it's like you almost can't help but be prepared for most of the types of shows that I've done in my career.

[474] you know, I try to do more of the fun, like, react to things.

[475] Or, you know, I mean, Sports Nation was just a weird party of ridiculousness.

[476] But, yeah, I mean, you do have to be, we're definitely under a different spotlight.

[477] Like, if you get something wrong, you just got it wrong.

[478] Or they say nothing at all.

[479] If I get it wrong, it's like, well, this is why bitch you shouldn't be talking about sports.

[480] You're like, okay, fair enough.

[481] Glad we had this reasonable conversation about it.

[482] Chad.

[483] But again, I also.

[484] been doing it long enough now to know we're all full of shit to an extent like all of us and none of us are infallible i mean some of the highest paid people in this business get it wrong on the daily and so once you sort of get that and you just try to be your best it's a lot easier to deal with well but what can you tell us about the struggle right i don't i i've asked you some of these kinds of questions before and it feels like you don't want to rummage around in this bin too much because then the stuff will get taken and it'll become headlines and everything else, but, you know, for lack of a better way of saying it, you were being put in power positions at ESPN that would suggest you were a bit of a pioneer.

[485] Yeah, I mean, look, I was the highest paid woman.

[486] Then I got another deal and I was the highest paid woman again.

[487] So it was like, oh, okay, they're investing in me. That's cool.

[488] And again, for a person who didn't plan it, it's all funny.

[489] You're like, oh, cool, I'm going to buy a house.

[490] I have no concept of like, this is actually a big deal.

[491] Like, this is cool.

[492] What bothered me about it was, and I was doing something like I loved.

[493] I loved Sports Nation.

[494] I mean, you couldn't have scripted a better show any of the iterations that I was a part of.

[495] You couldn't have scripted a better show for me to be a part of on a network like ESPN because I'm not a sports center anchor.

[496] I'm not like an exes and O's.

[497] Like, Mina Kimes is a one of one.

[498] Like, I'm not her.

[499] Like, she, that's a different skill set.

[500] perfectly cast for what you were doing.

[501] So that, to me, was like, done.

[502] Then I have the chance to do NBA countdown, which is my favorite sport.

[503] And so I'm just like, oh, I'm living my dream right now.

[504] This could not be better.

[505] And it was awesome.

[506] And I loved Jalen and Chauncey and Paul.

[507] And I loved everyone that was behind the scenes on that show.

[508] What I hated was there was this, even from the before I got the gig, it was like, it was being scripted as, I'm coming after Sage Steel and this are all the parts that are behind the scenes making that happen.

[509] I was like, that's not, that wasn't my recollection of it.

[510] I was up for a new deal.

[511] That I always wanted the job, but I don't, you know, you don't sit there and like go, well, I didn't.

[512] But there's nothing you can really do.

[513] You have to wait for the suits to decide.

[514] So it was like, okay, cool, everyone knew.

[515] They were like, would you like to do MBA can'town?

[516] Sure.

[517] Okay, so my deal is now going to include that Sage is out.

[518] That's how it works, right?

[519] Then it starts up again.

[520] And it's like, good God Almighty.

[521] Like, first of all, it's always a woman that there's like four of us now that are just hating each other and eating at each other because we want this one little stupid carrot that they're dangling.

[522] And it sucked.

[523] It also revealed a lot about people in that regard because I did not like it.

[524] And I did not like the feeling of someone being nice to my face and immediately running off and, you know, planting seeds and bad -mouthing me or trying to put me in a bad light.

[525] that does not sit well with me and that is something that I will never I'll never forgive just because I don't think if you're good at your job and and somebody sees that you're going to have the job and if you don't have the job then you'll get the next job I don't think that you should shit all over somebody and try to make them look horrible so that you can maybe have that job and that to me was eye -opening and there's been no job that I've come across that I thought you know what I should do is try to ruin someone.

[526] else so I can have it.

[527] Like, that's a, why would you want to do it that way?

[528] I mean, unless you just are cool with being that kind of a person.

[529] It seems like truth and authenticity are kind of lighthouses for you.

[530] Yes.

[531] Yeah, I don't, I, I don't have time or desires to be around fraudulent people or intentions.

[532] You got in television.

[533] That's why I sit at home with my dog.

[534] We're just like sitting alone together.

[535] What a fool.

[536] I don't have time for fraudulent people.

[537] And so you get into the vanity business where everyone's covered in different kinds of makeup for camouflage.

[538] Just everything and just maybe they're one way on television and they're an awful person or vice versa.

[539] You know, that's the weird thing too is sometimes people play a character on TV that you're like, you're kind of obnoxious.

[540] And then you meet them in real life.

[541] You're like, oh, no, you're actually fine.

[542] Why do you do it this way?

[543] I don't get it.

[544] But yeah, I know.

[545] I didn't know that again.

[546] Again, I didn't plan to do any of this.

[547] I knew nothing about this world.

[548] You came in naive, almost.

[549] 100%.

[550] And so you're the highest paid woman and still naive.

[551] And still naive and pissed because things were being allowed to happen.

[552] And I kept thinking to myself, you give me all this money.

[553] Shouldn't you defend me?

[554] Like, shouldn't you have my back internally at the very least?

[555] You know, I don't expect much externally.

[556] And to not see that happen for whatever reason was just, that was my turning point, I think.

[557] And I remember there was sort of this feeling amongst the four of us on the show, Jalen, Chauncey and Paul and myself, where we kind of felt like it was us against the world because it was just this constant like the New York Post with some article about how this isn't working.

[558] None of these things were happening on our show.

[559] There was no problems.

[560] There was nobody being a diva.

[561] None of it.

[562] And instead of somebody from up top going out there and being like, this is all bullshit.

[563] So you can stop writing it or you can keep writing it.

[564] But just so you know, it's bullshit.

[565] that's our statement, nothing, just silence.

[566] And it's really hard.

[567] Like, I'm not a company man to begin with, but it's really hard for me to play the game if that's how everybody's being treated.

[568] And so I checked out, and I remember being in Portland during the Western Conference Finals, I guess, and that was, it was like this moment in the makeup chair, and I was just like, I don't think this is going to last much longer.

[569] I hate to say it, because I loved doing it.

[570] But I was like, I don't like it.

[571] You felt it was dead.

[572] Like, you felt that this needs to be, you're, and not unlike what you're feeling around the lawyers, right?

[573] You're trusting the intuition of my body's telling me something's not, no, this isn't how this should feel.

[574] This isn't it.

[575] I know, we have contracts for reasons like that.

[576] So it was like a nice sort of, when this is done, I want to be done.

[577] Figure that out.

[578] And, yeah, got my little buy out and left.

[579] Did it hurt?

[580] Because I remember, I remember, and I've had conversations like, this with Dan Patrick, about being sort of surprised, our wives being surprised that we thought that the company would care or that some...

[581] Silly boy.

[582] What are you talking about?

[583] That somebody, that if they pay you like that, and if they give you that platform, they value who you are and what you're about.

[584] Is that not logical?

[585] I mean, well, I...

[586] Like, here's millions of dollars, but we don't give two sheds of.

[587] But I, too, was naive about that.

[588] But I also had never felt disrespected ever by an employer.

[589] I was always sort of a good boy.

[590] And so I...

[591] You were smart.

[592] Like, you sort of got to, yeah, you were good.

[593] Well, but also privileged.

[594] Like, not, like, I wasn't running up against a lot of people who weren't built like me or who didn't have just an instant common connection to, oh, okay, let's line up here.

[595] You're wandering through a whole different place because I can't tell people what it was like.

[596] to be you as a woman in this world, fighting over a couple of chairs.

[597] A couple of chairs.

[598] Like, how stupid is that?

[599] And we all have our strengths.

[600] Like, whatever, you know, figure that out.

[601] I mean, it all, the way it all played out after I left was chef's kiss.

[602] How did you overcome it?

[603] Like, because you were fighting.

[604] You were, you're not going to be quiet.

[605] Like, not behind the scenes.

[606] You're not going to be quiet.

[607] You're not going to just eat it.

[608] I mean, I left, I left, you know, you sign like a stupid little deal and you can't work at certain places for a while.

[609] And my intention was to just disappear for a little while.

[610] I was like, I'm going to leave.

[611] And I traveled for a little while.

[612] And then, and I wasn't really mad at that point.

[613] I mean, it took me a minute.

[614] I didn't watch, this is one thing.

[615] I did do passive aggressively.

[616] I did not watch a second of the bubble year, the COVID, all this.

[617] I just checked out completely from the NBA.

[618] I don't know that I've ever gone a season in my life of like not watching basketball.

[619] I watched nothing.

[620] So I guess in that way, that was my little form of, I don't want to deal with any of it.

[621] But I also realized, like, I took myself out of that world.

[622] So I didn't have to see anybody.

[623] I didn't go anywhere.

[624] I left the country for a while.

[625] And when I did ultimately come back, COVID happened.

[626] So it was like a built -in, like, oh, I'm still not going anywhere.

[627] Which, again, I'm one of the few people that love that.

[628] Because, oh, I can't leave.

[629] Well, but it seems like you would get some great healing, too, from sort of leave.

[630] So you're, you never expect any of this to happen.

[631] No, you don't.

[632] You become wildly popular, and then the things you're doing are the profession of your dreams.

[633] Yeah.

[634] But some stuff that's happening isn't what you imagine your dreams would come with.

[635] Yeah.

[636] And then you check out for two years, not unlike the way, except less lost than you were when you checked out for three years after law school.

[637] No, now I'm good.

[638] Now I've got a big, nice, beautiful home here in Los Angeles.

[639] My mom was living with me. My brother and his girlfriend were living with me. Like, it was, you know, had the dog.

[640] It was a good, it was a great existence, honestly.

[641] But I did.

[642] I disappeared.

[643] Like, I truly disappeared.

[644] Did it sharpen for you the things you wanted?

[645] It actually made me realize, because I think part of this world, any sort of business where you're front and center and you kind of your face and your voice is who you are.

[646] And that's how people, they think they know you and all that.

[647] I do feel like your identity and your value becomes entwined with that.

[648] So if I'm not working a big, giant job, well, then I'm worthless.

[649] Like, that's kind of what I think our brains, my brain used to tell myself.

[650] And that's probably why I used to take every single job.

[651] And I hustled and I would work, work, work, work.

[652] Because I was like, no, I have to keep going.

[653] This is the only way I'm worth anything.

[654] What this time off did for me was made me realize, like, I don't have to do it that way.

[655] Like, I'm going to do things that make me happy.

[656] And that with people that I enjoy spending my time around, you know, we all got to work to an extent.

[657] but I went into it with just sort of a calm.

[658] Like I now, I know what I'll put up with and what I won't.

[659] I mean, that is for sure.

[660] But I also don't think I'm going to run into those types of issues anymore.

[661] I'm older and, you know, I don't see things as like cutthroat or I have to have a job.

[662] And now we're all protecting it.

[663] Like, it's my own little meal.

[664] Like, I just don't.

[665] I think the jobs that I choose to do now are just relaxed and fun.

[666] And if they stop being that, then.

[667] we'll figure out what the next step is, but I don't have the stress that I had at all that I had before.

[668] That sounds super adult.

[669] And I have found that when the further I move away from work being too much of my identity, the more complete or happy I feel or fulfilled.

[670] But it took a long time to learn that.

[671] I have found later in life that competition, it doesn't, it doesn't, I don't, I don't, see it as noble the way that I used to.

[672] I don't even feel it as as healthy, but somebody can say, well, he's not hungry anymore or he's satiated or he's lazy or or whatever it is, but I have gotten, the more removed I get from having too much of my identity wrapped up in this, the more balance I feel because what this is is, not this, but most of it is pretty stupid.

[673] This isn't stupid.

[674] This is uncommon depth right here.

[675] This is wisdom that will echo across eternity.

[676] But most of this that we do is pretty stupid.

[677] And when you're young, don't know yourself and your identity is tied up in it, it's the most important thing in the world.

[678] Oh, and look, there are things that bother you then, and it's been several years now.

[679] It's like, oh, you got fired, this, that.

[680] I know I didn't get fire.

[681] I know exactly how everything happened.

[682] But you can't sit there and have that argument over and over again with some nameless person.

[683] That can start to internalize.

[684] Or, you know, if you're not a ESPN, you'll disappear.

[685] You're a nobody.

[686] These are the types of things that, like, originally and at the beginning, I think, probably maybe stewed a little bit, but far, far less time than I thought.

[687] I thought for sure that I was going to have more of a struggle, and I didn't.

[688] And it was kind of shocking.

[689] You just mentioned something about social media that instantaneously, like, swept through me a feeling of remorse and regret because I remember now an interaction that you and I had that made me come to realize, and I didn't realize it until then, because there was something that we were going back and forth on something I had done on the Spurs, some rant or something I had done, and I just remember what came after you when I gave people permission, made me immediately back off, just by what, it was some small thing.

[690] It wasn't any, it wasn't any, it was just some silly beefing thing that I don't remember.

[691] of it.

[692] Clearly, your social media existence is such that this wouldn't even register because it was small, it was small comparatively to what you were dealing with.

[693] But it made me realize in the moment, oh, I didn't realize what this person's social media experience is.

[694] I should not have welcomed any of that toward her.

[695] The leeches or the, yeah.

[696] No, but I remember, I remember not having real light around.

[697] Oh, wait a minute.

[698] I thought this was a wildly popular person.

[699] I didn't realize how many angry, sad men there are in this world who are now going to.

[700] It's weird.

[701] Because it was, I mean, I'm not going to say it was the advent of social media, but I'm not sparring with women in public on any sports subject before this.

[702] And so I remember what just, without knowing the details of this, I'm telling you, I remember, I remember apologizing to you about, because I welcomed something into your life that made it a little more unpleasant because of how poisonous these things.

[703] can be.

[704] It's funny because, I mean, look, I just went through it the other day with my friend Peter Rosenberg.

[705] We're having the same conversation about the kicker for Kansas City.

[706] I said what I said.

[707] He said what he said.

[708] They're the exact same messaging.

[709] And my mentions were a cesspool.

[710] And I was just like it almost felt like a I still got it moment for myself.

[711] I was like I pissed him off just by doing the exact same thing that you did.

[712] Real strength in that though.

[713] So now, oh, but my God.

[714] Okay.

[715] So you have now got a much healthier relationship with seeing what this thing is.

[716] Yeah.

[717] Mostly I don't even look.

[718] It's weird.

[719] Bill Simmons, of all people, like a thousand years ago.

[720] And I remember I was engaging more with like rude people and stuff.

[721] And I think he saw that.

[722] And he like pulled me aside.

[723] I was like, just stop.

[724] Put a tweet and never go back.

[725] Never look at it.

[726] Never look at the mentions, the comments, whatever.

[727] Which is easier said than done, obviously, especially in the beginning of this dumb thing.

[728] Now we've all kind of gotten a little bit used to it.

[729] For the most part, I don't see it unless it's just over the top.

[730] But yeah, it's much healthier because it doesn't matter.

[731] It really does not matter.

[732] Oh, but you've learned this, right?

[733] So when did you realize?

[734] When did you start realizing your power, your strength, your voice?

[735] When, and it may have been before any of this professionally.

[736] You know, I don't know that I recognize it at all.

[737] I think all I can do is just sort of I have my own, I'm self -concernia.

[738] and I'm just sort of trying to figure everything out like everyone else, but I also, I'm 48 now.

[739] I'll be 49 in October.

[740] It's like no one's going to push me around at this point.

[741] No one's going to make me do things I don't want to do.

[742] I've been working in this business long enough.

[743] I know I have a voice to that extent.

[744] Even if it's a brand new job with brand new people, like I do bring years of experience at least to the time.

[745] Funny thing is I don't see myself that way, like as a person that's been doing this for a long time.

[746] I still kind of see myself as like, the bumbling idiot that just sort of fell into this job.

[747] And so every once in a while, I'm reminded or I'll have like a young person be like, I would rush home from school and watch Sports Nation.

[748] And you're like, oh, thanks.

[749] That's cool.

[750] Like, I have to remember that sometimes.

[751] But I think for me, it's just the comfort of knowing I'm not going to do anything I don't want to do, ever.

[752] Like, period.

[753] I had that for most of the time.

[754] But I've definitely fluctuated, you know, if you really want a job, really, really bad.

[755] You're like, oh, I guess I'll do this dumb job on top of it, whatever.

[756] But now it's like, no, I think financially, like, we're okay.

[757] So I'm going to just take the jobs I want to do and avoid everything else.

[758] You feel stronger?

[759] Like, you feel – I do.

[760] For me, anything that's going to make me feel down or sad has nothing to do with work.

[761] I know that.

[762] And that's beautiful.

[763] Like real life stuff, yes, that can be heavy.

[764] And that can get me off my path for a second and just trying to figure that.

[765] things out but but work stuff i mean it all it puts it all into perspective like i lost a friend last year i lost my mom last year like lost another dog last year like nothing any of this shit is that is it's all in perspective at this point all of it and i know that's cliche um but it really is it's like it's just a job well but you're saying it's cliche you had to learn that sort of hard -earned because at one point when this was the center of your identity, it's not just the job.

[766] It's you.

[767] Especially if you weren't ever angling for fame.

[768] Like if you just sort of end up there and now what you see swirling around you is wildly confusing.

[769] Yeah.

[770] It's weird because I don't, it was, I mean, it was always a little odd, you know, to be at like a restaurant or with your friends and stuff and people know, or to go on Letterman.

[771] Like, I went on Letterman.

[772] the hell am I?

[773] And by the way, the other guest that night was Donald Trump.

[774] How bizarre a world has the entire planet become.

[775] But like weird things that I've gotten to do as a result of this world that I didn't know existed.

[776] I do sometimes have to be reminded of it.

[777] Like I forget.

[778] I forget a lot of stuff.

[779] And somebody else might bring it up.

[780] I'll be like, oh, yeah, we did do that, didn't we?

[781] That was fun.

[782] It's almost sometimes like I don't think I've taken it for granted.

[783] I just didn't take it as seriously.

[784] Well, but that's, you're unusual in that usually the great many people who surround you who would be at your status, it was an ambition of theirs.

[785] Right.

[786] Like, they treated that.

[787] However, you were treating law school.

[788] Yeah.

[789] God, I really screwed whips.

[790] Right?

[791] What if I was supposed to save the world?

[792] What if I screw that up, Dan?

[793] I was supposed to do that.

[794] You could have.

[795] You could have.

[796] And instead, you wandered away and for three years were lost and ended up on a bus penniless and couldn't get further than Dallas to get home.

[797] It's a real rags to riches story.

[798] I want to talk about this bus ride, though.

[799] So after three years, after three years, so you're realizing as your, as your drive, I've, I'm not thrown away the last three years, but that's it.

[800] I've reached the end of the road on being lost.

[801] It probably was like, it was probably like two years and some change at that point.

[802] Because when I got back to San Antonio, it was not immediate, like, because I, what am I, you know, I have no leg to stand on.

[803] No one is interested in anything I have to say.

[804] It's just, what are you planning on doing?

[805] with the rest of your life.

[806] But yeah, the bus was, my God, I remember the manager of like a bus station in Little Rock, First of all, it's a 40 -something hour trip from Peterborough, Ontario, back down to Santern.

[807] Because you stop every three hours, and they would just yell at people and treat them so horribly.

[808] And like, if you tried to ask to get something, no, we're not getting anything.

[809] An Amish family was standing in the aisle for like four and a half hours from wherever, somewhere in Ohio to the next place in Ohio and I'm like, what even is this?

[810] As a girl traveling alone, I'm not sleeping.

[811] Obviously, I'm not going to go to sleep because I don't know who's on this bus with me. So you're just like wired and like you're stopping at bus stations at three in the morning for the bus driver to take a pee and you're just like, this is the, this is shady.

[812] And that's fine, but it was the way people were being treated.

[813] And that's what probably bothered me more than anything.

[814] Because, you know, at the end of the day, I knew I don't ever have to do this again.

[815] Like, I'm glad I did it.

[816] But this is how every, like most people, this is the only version of travel they have.

[817] And we treat them like that.

[818] Like, I would get so mad and just be infuriated, just silently sitting there.

[819] Because also, I don't want to make a scene because I don't want to be murdered.

[820] So I'm just like, can we just get to somewhere?

[821] Please, thank you.

[822] But I'm glad I did.

[823] I mean, the best part about it was was the bus from Peterborough, Ontario to Toronto was beautiful.

[824] It looked like a tour bus.

[825] New carpet, everything.

[826] I was like, oh, this is going to be great.

[827] The minute we crossed into the U .S., it was just garbage.

[828] I was like, dang it.

[829] I didn't know it was like too good picture.

[830] That was eye -opening as well.

[831] I'm sure they've come a long way since then.

[832] And so you get home, though, and disappointed parents are still wildly loving parents.

[833] Oh, very.

[834] Yeah, no, they've never ever been anything, but, honestly, they've been great parents.

[835] They told us we could do whatever we wanted.

[836] You know, my mom and I, we came to the States when I was a baby.

[837] So she was my best friend because she didn't speak any English.

[838] And so we learned to speak English basically at the same time.

[839] She was learning how to read with me, like a Dr. Seuss book, which is not the easiest book for a person learning English right off the bat.

[840] But that was sort of like the bond of that is just so different than a normal mother -daughter bond, simply because she's trying to survive in a country she knows nothing about.

[841] and I'm her only ally, seemingly, at that point, and I'm a baby, like I'm a child.

[842] So, you know, it was always, I don't think I could have ever.

[843] I know they were disappointed, but it was never to the point where, like, I felt it.

[844] I mean, I was probably more disappointed in myself, honestly.

[845] But they always were great.

[846] And, again, sometimes I think, like, if this hadn't worked out, I don't know what I would have done.

[847] This could be a different story altogether, but I'm sure I would have figured it.

[848] I'm pretty resourceful.

[849] I'll figure it out.

[850] We bullshit our way through this career.

[851] I'm sure I'll figure out another one.

[852] I have spent a lot of time, too much time, I would say, on this pod recently, talking about grief and breaking down.

[853] And you mentioned the amount of loss that you have had recently.

[854] And you're telling us about the relationship with your mother.

[855] So how did you navigate and how are you navigating all of that?

[856] Because I was just telling.

[857] Son of a bitch is going to make me cry.

[858] No, no, I hope we don't do this.

[859] But I was just talking to my wife about this before I came over here because it's been 10 months and also it was the horror of the months before that where I knew I was going to lose my little brother.

[860] And what I was saying to her, because there's just always a little bit of sadness on me, even if there's something joyous or something else, there's always a little bit of weight of sickness.

[861] And I was telling her the other day, like when I'm jumping rope, I feel it as a physical weight in my stomach.

[862] Like I can just, and so I'm just, I have a hard time getting it off of me. And so I've just been asking a lot of people who have, who have dealt with it, like, and because I know it's different for everybody, but, and how is this going for you?

[863] What have you learned in here that, that I might be able to have that could apply or also help others because I've found that here, for some reason in this setting, people talking about this has reached other people who have sort of pushed it down and want to hear something about, like, what this experience is.

[864] Because look, it unifies all of us, like the loss, like all of us that's the one.

[865] I mean, you can think whatever you think, believe whatever you think, rich, poor, black, white.

[866] It doesn't matter.

[867] This is the one thing we all experience at some point.

[868] And so there's no, I don't know that there's a right way.

[869] Like, I'm sure I should go to therapy.

[870] I'm probably a prime candidate to go to therapy.

[871] And I haven't, but it never leaves me. Like, I'm never going to not be sad.

[872] period.

[873] And if it's a yoga class, I don't like yoga classes that are in silence or dark completely because at the end I just start crying by myself, which is a crazy person.

[874] And I get angry.

[875] And, you know, between my mom and my best friend's husband who I had known for 20 -something years who just died out of nothing, nowhere, wasn't sick or anything, there's a lot of anger still for me. Like, I want to pick up a phone.

[876] I want to call and talk to both of them.

[877] I want to call and talk to my mom, like, and I'll never get to do it again.

[878] And so I just try to push it away.

[879] I mean, it's probably what you do, right?

[880] Like, what is the choice?

[881] I can sit there and lean in, and every once in a while I will.

[882] If I'm by myself, I'll just, let's just cry, get it out of our systems.

[883] But otherwise, it's just pushing it away.

[884] And then you sort of like, okay, it's gone.

[885] And then it comes back the next day.

[886] Like, oh, right, this person's gone, like forever.

[887] So keep going.

[888] And, you know, it sucks.

[889] Like, the things I'm going to do that she'll never see, that sucks.

[890] That sucks.

[891] I don't know, and I hope this doesn't sound like I know anything, but avoidance is not healing, right?

[892] And so when you say you get this anger and you don't want to do therapy, I don't know that I'm soothed at all by it, but I haven't been able to sort of slither around the pain of it, right?

[893] Like I have to sort of talk about it.

[894] I've avoided people.

[895] Like I have avoided a great many people, but the ones that I'm connecting with here, Like, it's a substantive sort of thing because avoiding it, Marcellus Wiley, we both know him, we did one of these, and he's one of the toughest human beings I've ever seen.

[896] Obviously, he's telling me this through gnarled fingers that have been destroyed by helmets and everything else.

[897] He's like, yeah, my mom dying when I was young, like, I, nope, avoidance is the way I'm going to handle that one.

[898] I don't, there's no solving it, so I'm just going to keep moving around it.

[899] And maybe, I guess it's different for everybody, but it doesn't, it, I don't, I don't, I can't avoid it.

[900] Like I, when you're saying, like, you say you don't want to go to therapy because you can't avoid it in therapy.

[901] You can't avoid it.

[902] And my, my non -therapied brain says, what's the point?

[903] What's the point?

[904] You're not bringing her back.

[905] I'm already sad.

[906] I'm going to be pissed for the rest of my life.

[907] What can you possibly do for me?

[908] And I get it.

[909] Everybody who's been through therapy that I know that truly embraced it.

[910] it and worked on themselves, don't regret doing it.

[911] Like, they loved that they did it.

[912] But there's this arrogant part of me that's just like, there's nothing you can say to me that's going to help me be any different.

[913] I'm just going to be pissed and sad.

[914] Doesn't that make you more helpless, though, to not be able to ask for even help, right?

[915] What is the help?

[916] I don't know, right?

[917] I don't know if somebody in therapy can help you, like talking about this with Stan Van Gundy here.

[918] He's like, he needed to talk about it.

[919] And again, this is different for everybody, so I don't want to seem like a counselor or anything because I don't know anything.

[920] But one of the things that I have not felt, I've said this before here, that one of the great graces and blessings in the horror that was the last few months of my brother's life is that I was able to say some of the things that made it so that I wouldn't carry guilt is one of the stages of grief.

[921] But I don't have anger.

[922] Like when you said anger.

[923] Yeah, I have anger.

[924] like that one I don't and I don't know where you put that but that must be something that makes you feel even more helpless like who am I angry at?

[925] Because that's the just I'm who am I?

[926] I'm not a religious person so I don't have any like anger towards a god or anything like that it was such a dumb death like she was grabbing clothes to come stay with me for the weekend and missed a stare fell and never woke up that's it and gone And so I'm angry.

[927] That was it.

[928] And my last visions are of her on machines, like dying.

[929] And my brother rushing to San Antonio to get off the plane and say goodbye.

[930] It was just like, this is bullshit.

[931] But, yeah.

[932] That, the suddenness of that, that part.

[933] Like, I would, that's when I tell you that I'm grateful for the horror of the machines, if it had been taken from me one day to the other without any kind of warning, then it would tap into like, well, there was so much left to say, so much left to do.

[934] And then I don't know how I would have avoided guilt and anger.

[935] So I guess I should be saying, I'm coming from a position, it's a weird thing to say, a privilege of saying, well, guilt and anger aren't the ones that I have.

[936] I just have a sickness, like it's just a physical weight that is, dark and unavoidable.

[937] It is a gut punch day to day.

[938] And I don't know how my best friend's doing it.

[939] I don't.

[940] I'm just like to just have someone taken away.

[941] Like it is a, that's the thing too.

[942] I think when you're younger and you know, you know people are going to die.

[943] You lose a grandparent, whatever.

[944] And your life goes on.

[945] But then it starts to become closer, the closer circle.

[946] And you just realize like, oh, you're just going to be sad forever.

[947] I mean, you live your life and you go and do, you travel and you have your loved ones, but it's just going to be there.

[948] And so I think they don't tell you that and we just figure it out while we're doing it.

[949] My wife actually, this is unusual and that my wife said to me very early on, she said to me very early on that I feel that one of the reasons here is, I'm here is to help help teach you about death because she's had a lot of loss in her life.

[950] Now, keep in mind, I'm not thinking at this point about my little brother like that I'm thinking about okay my parents my I'm going to lose my parents here at some point and and then in the middle of that she had she lost the loved one to to suicide and one of the immediate things that she said to me like immediately and keep in mind I'm totally naive here I don't know I don't have any experience with grief whatsoever is hey this is a part of me now this never leaves this this what is here now is here and we're going to have we're going to live with this because this is here forever yeah it's now it's now part of your chemical makeup and you know my brother and i are both very similar senses of humor and we we deal with it again probably he probably should have therapy too but we deal with it like with dark humor like we just you know when when strangers come around or like when my boyfriend comes around for the first time he's like and he's a funny person and a dark person and a sarcastic person.

[951] He even is like, Jesus, you guys are dark.

[952] And that's, again, that's sort of how we deal with immense sadness.

[953] Yeah.

[954] But is there any solace in the pain being something that reminds you that the love is still alive and that the love, that the love will not, if nothing else, the love will not die?

[955] No. No. And you know, like you'll never forget.

[956] But just, I think it's just the, it's the anger of like never getting to share anything again.

[957] Like, you know, send her a picture of my dumb dog doing something stupid that I know she would have loved or like when I travel and on any time I'm in the car, that would have been a call.

[958] Like it's just, I think it's that.

[959] And so knowing that every day I feel that, yeah, that the love is forever.

[960] And I think I would have had guilt because before, like a couple years before, I'd been so angry at.

[961] her um she started to like think things that she had never thought before she started to become like borderline fascist in her beliefs and we would just butt heads and butt heads and and i remember i'd be like i was so angry i was like mom you have to leave the house i can't you can't live here anymore like it was the whole thing we had made up and i you know i i explained to her one day i was like you were the hippie that handcuffed herself to the american embassy during the war like that's the mom that raised me you're you're the person that told me growing up in a small town in Texas.

[962] Like, my dad is very diplomatic.

[963] He's like, choose your battles wisely.

[964] You know, you don't have to fight every fight.

[965] Meanwhile, when I was young, I was like, I'm fighting every fight.

[966] And so my mom was like, fight them all.

[967] That was her.

[968] And when she started to think differently, I was just like so taken aback and upset about it.

[969] And we would have fights about it.

[970] And the one thing that I'm so grateful for is that we had mended that.

[971] Like, we were not doing that anymore because it was, I mean, I didn't talk to my whole family for like almost a whole year.

[972] And it was just like, you know, I'm glad for that.

[973] Because that, if I would have had sadness, anger, and that, oh, disaster.

[974] I don't know what is going on in this country that that story is not unique to you.

[975] When that story in every family where you're recognizing things about family members that you never knew before because of everything that's happening, I, you just conjured for me. how weirdly alone I felt among loved ones when I was wrestling ESPN on the Trump stuff and how many weird, like just how many weird things that were revealed by it that were heartbreaking to me, like in a variety of different places where someone you love as deeply as this, you're not speaking to them for a year because you're like, how can your life experiences be so much different than my life experiences that we're arriving at something and I'm fighting I'm fighting ESP and I'm coming to New York to see if they're going to if I can work with the new president and if he can work with me because I'm complaining about like we can't sit out you know like I can't as an exile sit out kids in cages brown kids in cages and somebody saying like a thousand years ago yeah right if such a quaint or charming time back then, yeah, to feel in the middle of that somehow not supported by people that I thought would love me no matter what, just loved ones, I was weird.

[976] And it made you just sort of, like, for me it was confusing because I was me because of the way she raised me. And now that person just didn't seem to be there anymore.

[977] So it was sort of like, what is going?

[978] And then you start thinking, am I going to start thinking this way in like 20, 30 years?

[979] Like, is it inevitable?

[980] Like, it just, it would just got easier to just not talk.

[981] And it wasn't necessarily done with anger.

[982] It was just, it was just easier to just, let's just all avoid each other for a little bit.

[983] That's brutal, though, right?

[984] Oh, it sucks.

[985] We're close family.

[986] And it's not the way that you do things, right?

[987] No, that's, that was my, you know, my brother and my mom, like I talked to on almost a daily basis.

[988] A daily basis.

[989] And so for that to just kind of go away for a bit was a lot.

[990] How did, and it got healed just, I mean, not really healed.

[991] That, too, avoidance was to just.

[992] Let's not talk about it.

[993] We're not going to actually solve it or address it.

[994] You're getting the name here, Dan.

[995] What do we do with problems?

[996] We just move around them, don't talk about.

[997] This relationship's over?

[998] Oh, then it's never happened.

[999] That's so ideal.

[1000] No, you know what happened is my dog L .R. The OG pug, he died.

[1001] And I was just like a bit traumatized from it.

[1002] And I had just sold one house in L .A. and moved into another one.

[1003] I wasn't even unpacked in the new one yet.

[1004] It was just, I wasn't really sleeping yet there.

[1005] It was just sort of like, okay, this is my new, this is cool.

[1006] I like it.

[1007] And he died.

[1008] And I was like, well, I don't want to be in this house anymore.

[1009] So I put that thing on the market.

[1010] And I remember I called my dad answered.

[1011] And I was a little hysterical.

[1012] And I was like, Leroy died.

[1013] And my dad, who has the bedside charm of like a corpse goes, well, he was getting up there in age.

[1014] Thanks, dad.

[1015] For all this soothing.

[1016] cold side.

[1017] I was like, okay, can you put mom on?

[1018] But I hadn't spoken to them in a while.

[1019] And then my brother called because they told him.

[1020] And it was, there was never a sort of come to Jesus, like, let's all powwow it out.

[1021] It was like Leroy died.

[1022] We all became part of each other's lives again.

[1023] I got in my car with the other two pugs and I drove to San Antonio.

[1024] And it was from there that like sold that house and I never came back here.

[1025] And it was just sort of like it bought a house there and I'm rash.

[1026] And then, yeah, and I, you know, I liked the idea of being in San Antonio for my mom, for my dad, like, I wanted to be close to them.

[1027] She dies.

[1028] Now I'm like, well, why do I, why would I be in San Antonio?

[1029] I've not really been there.

[1030] I've been in New York and here.

[1031] Oh, you won't go to the house.

[1032] I mean, I don't want, my dad's still there.

[1033] Like, I will go to pick up the dog, perhaps, like my mom's dog, but I don't want to be there.

[1034] That's where she died.

[1035] I don't want to be there.

[1036] Can we sort of examine the idea of how you are shaped by the transaction that you just described, which is my dog dies and I'm so broken that I'm going to seek soothing from the people who love me, who understand me, who know my love of dogs.

[1037] And what I met with is, well, he was getting, he was getting old.

[1038] So Bob Beetle.

[1039] Okay.

[1040] So, but I mean, you've been, you've been shaped by this.

[1041] Oh, 100%.

[1042] Yeah, it's weird to be the product of an Italian woman who, you know, she wasn't the stereotype of like huggy -feely, like despite what people think, but she would give you everything.

[1043] Like literally, here's her last piece of food.

[1044] That's what she would do.

[1045] And then my dad who's just like, remember who you are, pumpkin?

[1046] Like, they're just very, I don't, I don't even know how these two humans found each other and stayed to even remotely close to each other that long.

[1047] But it was a, it's a weird dichotomy of two personalities.

[1048] Like she was hot and fiery and like wants to fight about everything and he would really prefer not to, but he was a very successful businessman.

[1049] And like just a bizarre world couple, I don't know if that's partly my take on marriage.

[1050] Like I've never been one.

[1051] I don't care if I ever get married.

[1052] Like it's fine.

[1053] You know, some people, I guess their parents have this ideal marriage and that's why they think they should also be married.

[1054] It wasn't a great marriage and it wasn't the worst marriage and it wasn't the worst marriage and it wasn't the best.

[1055] It was just, it was a marriage.

[1056] They divorced and then they remarried each other.

[1057] So I have no real, that is my attitude about, eh.

[1058] And so how did it inform then your relationship history through your deciding, I don't care if I get married and all of that?

[1059] I don't see the need, honestly.

[1060] I mean, you got married in later age.

[1061] I'm not judging it.

[1062] I'm not, I was always anti -marriage.

[1063] Like I was completely, I was always resolute on this is unnatural why, not a lot of species decide to be together forever, right?

[1064] Yeah, but I got a champagne bottle over the head.

[1065] And it sort of realized I was wrong about a lot of things that I thought I knew.

[1066] But yes, I'm not, I'm just wondering how their relationship then formed who you became in terms of what you sought or what patterns you inherited from your parents, whether you knew you were inheriting them or not.

[1067] because in my case, one of the reasons I got a bottle hit over my head late in life is because I'm like, oh, it's not supposed to be like I always thought love was because that's what I saw in my house and that's what love is.

[1068] No, it's not that.

[1069] It can be something else.

[1070] And so I can have a different relationship with how I love myself, how I love somebody else, because the way that I was loved.

[1071] It was a form of love, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's my top end, most evolved version of love.

[1072] No, because you can take from that, like, we worked for you guy, but this is not what I want at all.

[1073] And that's kind of, like, my dad was a workaholic.

[1074] He didn't really go on trips with us.

[1075] My mom was with us 24 -7, stay -at -home mom, did all that.

[1076] Same, by the way.

[1077] Yeah, and so I think I'd be foolish to think that didn't somehow in my mind be like, okay, well, I know I don't want that.

[1078] Like, I don't want, I love my mom to death, and I'm grateful for everything she did for us, but that I could never do.

[1079] Like, that's not what I want for my life.

[1080] And I think part of me went the extreme opposite.

[1081] I was like, you know, my mom is a foreigner.

[1082] She, you know, only has so many things that she's got to her access as far as getting a job or doing any of these things.

[1083] When they got divorced, that was pretty gross.

[1084] And I saw her sort of, I mean, she's petty as hell and I love her to death.

[1085] Like my dad, my dad was an executive at Valero.

[1086] and when they got divorced, and he'll laugh about it now, but when they got divorced, she got a job at the Valero gas station that is right next to where his office was so that all of his colleagues and the people that were for her would walk.

[1087] Wow.

[1088] And by the way, the sinister smile that you couldn't even repress in thinking about how wonderful that is.

[1089] Oh, when she told me she was doing that, I was like, wow, that is some, that's a movie.

[1090] Okay.

[1091] Are you like your mom?

[1092] And I don't mean like pettiness, but I mean like fiery.

[1093] Like I do remember, yeah.

[1094] I mean, to put that much energy into sort of revenge, I know because I feel like it's wasteful.

[1095] But I do appreciate it.

[1096] It's a work of art. Well played.

[1097] Yeah, so I knew that I don't want that.

[1098] The funny thing is, is I've never been against the idea of like a partner.

[1099] Like I want a person who is, you know, an equal, who we travel together and we like the same things.

[1100] But we also have our lives that are not necessarily interrelated.

[1101] intertwined.

[1102] And to me, that was always sort of what I would want.

[1103] But I didn't really see that at home.

[1104] And so I just, yeah, the marriage part for me, I just equated it like, you know, or I'd see my friends that were married.

[1105] I'd be like, that's fine.

[1106] It works for them.

[1107] It's just, that's not what I want.

[1108] And so, yeah, it never became a goal, if you will.

[1109] But then you hear like, I've been picturing my wedding, my whole lot.

[1110] Never once have I had a vision of my wedding.

[1111] Is this the happiest that you have been it's a it's uh i feel very just easy like life's very easy right now and well but and comfortable in your skin it sounds like and comfortable with your choices and what it is that you want and don't want from your life yeah it feels very sort of um like there's not a like a weird stress or anything or what's i don't have that what's next feel which you would think i would have now right because i am doing like jobs like year or two at a time and you don't know if they're going to be there next year and that would be the time to be worried.

[1112] But I don't feel it.

[1113] Oh, but if you're not measuring yourself anymore by what it is that you do for a living.

[1114] I feel like something will happen.

[1115] The other job will come around.

[1116] There's real freedom in that.

[1117] It kind of is.

[1118] I kind of do like that.

[1119] I don't know that a lot of people would necessarily understand all of that.

[1120] I don't know if it starts with you never wanting this to begin with and it having to provide it a wild ride and inherently you being the person who will walk out of law school and spend three years wandering, right?

[1121] Like that, you're, you know, but I'm right, like, I mean, if, if, I would say that it would be very easy for you to want to shake a fist at industry or to say, how can all of these people fuck me when they're not as good as, as what it is that I'm doing and television executives think that they're running everything and, and they're responsible for success and they don't actually.

[1122] That we're all replaceable, Dan.

[1123] That was the, that was the quote we all got to hear a repeat.

[1124] We're all replaceable.

[1125] I mean, it was one of the fascinating things I thought about ESPN that I did not know before getting there is, oh, wait a minute, this is just run by producers.

[1126] This hasn't actually run by the people who, like, that's how the producers keep their power.

[1127] If they make everybody, yes, if they always make everyone else replaceable, they never have to give away any of the power.

[1128] But also, the entirety of the content, like, that's a lot of space to make great content and not a lot of it is great.

[1129] No, exactly.

[1130] Well, yeah, now you're just, I mean, it's just a lot of filling.

[1131] the air with stuff.

[1132] It's always been that, though.

[1133] It's always been, it's hidden as that it's always been infomercials that just get you to the games.

[1134] And they're disguised as maybe Michelle Beatle can make it entertaining or, yeah, right.

[1135] But it's all, how do we get you to the 10 people, 10 million people who are watching on Monday night and keep you there running on the airport bars and everywhere?

[1136] That's where you get the most play.

[1137] Like, oh, there she is.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] Yeah, it is, it's weird.

[1140] just content at this point.

[1141] Just chilling.

[1142] We'll see what happens.

[1143] Like, you would think I'd be mad, but I really am not mad.

[1144] It wasn't that bad.

[1145] Look, I made a lot of money doing something.

[1146] I love doing a lot.

[1147] The ending wasn't perfect.

[1148] It's not how I would have scripted it, but it is what it is.

[1149] And there are far worse things that could have happened.

[1150] It's just, it was eye -opening.

[1151] That's all.

[1152] I just learned a lot.

[1153] But looking back on it, too, though, and seeing it through, like, really adult eyes on, oh, that's all kind of empty.

[1154] it's all it all of that doesn't matter given like what where the real stuff is no it doesn't it was just it's just job stuff but that's that's where by the way i'm excuse me for interrupting you like that's where perspective isn't a cliche you actually have it that's true i guess that's the whole point of any of this right like this should eventually not be the most important thing and that's it's weird to tell a young person that one they're like do you have any advice i'm like yeah none of this is important yeah that's not not great not great mentoring for your advice.

[1155] So I mean, usually I'm just like, don't be an asshole.

[1156] Try to also live your life.

[1157] Like, it cannot just be this.

[1158] But I know it's falling upon deaf ears because when you're young and hungry, there is no life.

[1159] There's no traveling.

[1160] There's no vacation.

[1161] You just.

[1162] I don't know what your relationship is with anger.

[1163] I would say that one of the things that got lubricated for me emotionally with marriage is just an access to feelings and stuff, like deeper feelings, whatever they are.

[1164] Because I used to pride myself on being like here.

[1165] And it was kind of hidden.

[1166] But anger, so when anger would arise in me and was a bit new to me and I'm noticing it, I have a hard time just treating it as data because I've, like, I haven't used many of these muscles very much before on anger, but it sounds like you can do it and have a good relationship with anger?

[1167] I can if it's just me, right?

[1168] If it's a self -contained situation or I'm angry about something, what I know, and I'm learning more.

[1169] and more every day with like a partner is I suck at it.

[1170] I apparently suck at communication, ironically.

[1171] And I tend to, I mean, it's the equivalent of just leaving, right?

[1172] It's the shutting down.

[1173] Like, that's the thing I think I probably have to work on more.

[1174] It's just always been easier in my mind if something's uncomfortable or you're angry about it.

[1175] Like, it's like a simpleton.

[1176] It's like a goldfish, right?

[1177] I'm just going to sleep on it and I'm going to wake up and it's going to be fine tomorrow.

[1178] That's how I've lived, right?

[1179] What?

[1180] it comes to relationship stuff like just let's sleep on it well i what you find out is that not everyone is the exact same right and most people don't just sleep on it and wake up and act like everything's fine so that part i am learning um and i've never really probably cared to change much of myself in relationships before like oh you don't like it well then you can leave like that was my attitude um but wanting to actually like get it more i guess is the sign of growth for me on in that regard like sure i have these emotions but normally if they're uncomfortable i just put them over here and i realize like you can't always do that when another human beings involved well this is interesting you mentioned that the relationship you're in now feels like a healthy one yeah um because and that's part of it right your so so your anger is being met with love yeah or if if they're angry then uh i'm supposed to figure out how to do with that and i'm not good at that either it's like, my attitude is like, well, you could get over it or like, that's not what you're supposed to say when someone's angry about something.

[1181] So it's like, oh, the harder part for me is to receive some sort of anger and then like work on that.

[1182] Who knew?

[1183] I thought you could just sleep on shit and it'll be fine tomorrow.

[1184] You don't think you'd wake up and it but formed, hardened into resentment?

[1185] No, no, no, no. Tomorrow's a new day.

[1186] Quietly don't address it.

[1187] We get a reset.

[1188] Like, what are you doing?

[1189] I don't know.

[1190] Apparently.

[1191] that was wrong.

[1192] But yeah, so to me, it's like, okay, I'm going to entertain this idea of like trying to figure all that out, but that part's not easy.

[1193] I don't know that it'll ever be easy.

[1194] But seeing what your blind spots have been shown to you by someone else, you respect, admire, love, and trust.

[1195] Yeah, exactly.

[1196] Trust.

[1197] Because every, every partner in our lives, when they leave, at least, or like, they give you the laundry list of everything that's wrong with you.

[1198] But you don't care at that point.

[1199] You're like, you are, like, you are out.

[1200] out of my life and nothing you say matters.

[1201] It's when there's someone there that, like, you just, all of the traits, like, everything is good.

[1202] I'm like, oh, maybe I should actually put a little effort into this, this time.

[1203] So we'll see.

[1204] I will do my best.

[1205] That's pretty cool, though.

[1206] Like, it's pretty cool.

[1207] And it doesn't have to be change as in someone is demanding change because they don't understand you.

[1208] It can be change you see because it's growth.

[1209] Like, growth is change.

[1210] Like, I need to do that for myself, like to be an adult.

[1211] And to have healthy relationships that keep getting healthier.

[1212] because you're growing them with nurturing and self -care.

[1213] I feel like, you know, I've brought pugs into his life.

[1214] He's bringing emotional intuition and awareness to mind.

[1215] It's a total trade.

[1216] I've admired you for a long time, and I appreciate you sharing this time with us and bearing your soul.

[1217] So thank you for being on with us.

[1218] I will remind the people, anything you want to tell them about Beatle and Decker weekdays from noon to three on Serious XM's Mad Dog Sports Radio channel because I meant to ask you what's the most fun you've had doing stuff because it looked like Sports Nation was the most fun that you were having.

[1219] To this day, all of us that started that show, like, I just ran into a couple guys the other day and had dinner and was like just the memory.

[1220] It was before we all had like adult jobs is how we refer to it.

[1221] And it was the most fun.

[1222] But yeah, three hours of radio a day, an hour and it's fun.

[1223] I'm like getting to talk about sports again and not take it too seriously.

[1224] Thank you for being on with us, Michelle.

[1225] Thanks for having me. Now's a good time to remember where the story of tequila started.

[1226] In 1795, the first tequila distillery was opened by the Cuervo family.

[1227] And 229 years later, Cuervo is still going strong.

[1228] Family owned from the start, same family, same land.

[1229] Now's a good time to enjoy Cuervo.

[1230] The tequila that invented tequila.

[1231] Go to Quervo .com to shop tequila or visit a store near you.

[1232] Cuervo, now's a good time.

[1233] Trademarks owned by Beckley, SAB, the CV, Copyright, 2024.

[1234] Proximo.

[1235] Jersey City, New Jersey, please drink responsibly.