Thierry Henry (EXCLUSIVE): "I Cried Every Single Day", Dealing With Depression, My Childhood Trauma & Fighting For My Dad's Love!

[0] I was lying for a very long time because society wasn't ready to hear what I had to say.

[1] But I would be honest with you, I was...

[2] Tierie Aubrey, record breaker.

[3] History maker.

[4] Last door's record gold scorer.

[5] Throughout my career, I must have been in depression.

[6] Did I do something about it?

[7] No. But to understand the person that I became, you have to understand what happened early.

[8] When I was young, I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging.

[9] My dad, the first time he took me in his arm, said, This baby will be an amazing football player.

[10] From that point, I was programmed to succeed.

[11] My dad took control of my body, and it was tough.

[12] One day, we played a game.

[13] I was 13 years old.

[14] We won a game 6 -0.

[15] I scored the 6 goals.

[16] But it was always what I didn't do.

[17] You miss that control.

[18] You miss that cross.

[19] You miss that this, you miss that.

[20] And it can make you or break you.

[21] I decided that it was going to make me. I wasn't scared of failure.

[22] You're going to fail.

[23] That's what shapes you.

[24] But I was more scared not to please people.

[25] Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning golden boots and invincibles, you were still trying to please your dad?

[26] Yeah.

[27] But were you happy?

[28] Oof.

[29] For so long you think what you're doing is to please others football money.

[30] We have a roof, but then I was about to leave again.

[31] My girlfriend, the kids, everybody starts to cry.

[32] And for the first time, I realized they were crying for me. Not the football player, not the accolades.

[33] And I felt human.

[34] If I was watching you, what would I have seen?

[35] crying almost every day.

[36] But it was the young theory.

[37] What was he crying for?

[38] To understand a man, I know that you have to understand his context, especially his early context.

[39] I think we're all products of our earliest context.

[40] I certainly am.

[41] And having spent a very small amount of time with you, I know you are as well.

[42] What is that early context that people need to know to understand the man that sits in front of me today?

[43] I will second what you just said.

[44] I think you need to understand the struggles of someone to know exactly what the person is and what a person is about.

[45] So many things that we can start with.

[46] Well, I grew up in a modest household, if I can say that, for me at the time, it was the best because I couldn't compare it to anything.

[47] I grew up with diversity.

[48] I grew up with, there is food on the table, so therefore I love you.

[49] I take care of you, so therefore I love you.

[50] It wasn't so much communicated by hugs, by I love you, by a well done.

[51] More often than not, it was more something that I didn't do.

[52] that was raised.

[53] Being from the caravan, my parents came early to France, which they called it the continent.

[54] It is still France, because they are French islands, Guadalupe and Martinique, but we always say going to France.

[55] It was the dream for that era to go to the continent, to go to France, to have a better life, to try to make sure that we could have a better life.

[56] But when you grew up there, you know, you dream of going to France because it's better, because it's like in bracket the American dream, which actually it is the French dream.

[57] I'm sure it was the same for you.

[58] When you arrive in France, make sure you don't make any mistakes.

[59] make sure they don't come to us and say oh those guys from the Caribbean you know they just arrive and you know so don't don't speak Creole make sure you speak French well don't do this don't do that we need to fit in we don't want to get sent back to the Caribbean we want to keep the house that we have we want to keep the job that we have always that fear of getting sent back not so much for me because I was born in France but they always had that chip on their shoulder of make sure you don't make any mistakes I don't want anyone to say that my son was this my son was that don't bring any problem we came here to work we came here to have a better life so please do not do not spoil kind of so you always feel like you need to fit in and not and not belong I was I was kind of heavy at one point as a young kid you know but that's that's the way it was you listen to it you you grew up with it and you you just tried to to fit in at one point what was life like outside of the four walls that you lived in outside of the home the streets you grew up on just a normal neighborhood if i can use the word normal neighborhood with everything that goes with it uh gangs drugs fight, happiness, diversity, different food, different religions.

[60] So I always said that it was the best for me to understand what the world was.

[61] How does it compare to the streets that your kids are growing up on?

[62] Oops.

[63] What streets?

[64] The garden.

[65] The grass.

[66] No concrete there, no, joking aside.

[67] We can't compare it, man. I mean, but if I had to do it again, I will do it again.

[68] I'll do it again because it made me, you know, it's very difficult.

[69] I can't even start to even compare anything.

[70] I did everything for them not to grow up there.

[71] Because you don't want to grow up there.

[72] Why?

[73] Because I didn't want them to go through that.

[74] It's weird for me to say that.

[75] But it's kind of a cliche thing to say that you don't really want to grow up there.

[76] If you ask anyone when they can compare it, they're like, oh, no, it's better to grow up there.

[77] It's better to grow up there.

[78] But for me, like I said, I'll do it again because it made me understand a lot of things, acceptance, living with others to coexist in any way, by the way, what you think of, what you wear.

[79] what you, how you see the world.

[80] For me, you know, I couldn't care less that, you know, that, you know, in my, in my class, the same thing was Senegalese, Malian, Caribbean, North African, Asian, Italian, Polish roots, Portuguese roots.

[81] I couldn't care less about what you thought or not.

[82] I'm like, this is my friend.

[83] Do you know what I mean?

[84] And I traveled also without traveling.

[85] like I went around the world staying in the same place I had all the food in the world staying in the same place so this is why I would say it's kind of a cliche thing to say you don't want to grow up there but what it gives you also what it gives you is second to none for me in terms of what you need in order to comprehend how the world is you described it before as growing up and only seeing cement.

[86] Yeah.

[87] Concrete.

[88] I grew up.

[89] It's kind of weird for me to say that, Stephen, but if I don't see concrete for more than a week, I don't feel well.

[90] I know people like country and country life and country life and the sea.

[91] If I don't see my, if I don't see concrete, I don't feel well.

[92] I grew up in it.

[93] Some people will tell you, though, I can't see it anymore.

[94] I need the sea.

[95] I need whatever.

[96] For me, I'm out.

[97] I'm happy in the town, concrete.

[98] That's where I grew up.

[99] But, yes, you can encounter problems there a lot.

[100] But I'll be honest with you, I was lucky enough.

[101] I have an older brother that's seven years older than me. So his friend, him used to protect me because he was, I have the same age as my town.

[102] So I was born in 77.

[103] My town was built in 77.

[104] So just imagine my brother arriving in this town is older than me was the first one I had the job.

[105] The first one, obviously I had money, the first one I had a car, so it was well respected.

[106] I know it sounds stupid now to say that, but it was well respected.

[107] So I always stayed away from trouble, especially with my parents, but also I don't know if you had that.

[108] But when you have a certain gift and the guys in the neighborhood, know that you might do something, you're also protected.

[109] Interesting.

[110] Because I leave this one alone.

[111] He might do something.

[112] It's good at football.

[113] You know, so let him be kind of.

[114] Interesting.

[115] So I had my brother, I died also.

[116] Yeah, because when you play football and you're from a town and like, hey, a little kid is from our town.

[117] You know, so you have a kind of an unwritten protection in a way.

[118] because you might do it, you know, you might succeed.

[119] Going back inside your home, what was life like inside the walls of your home?

[120] I always think that we learn, you kind of gave a hint to it there.

[121] We learn emotion inside the walls of our home.

[122] I certainly didn't because there wasn't a lot of love in my parents' house in terms of their love with each other.

[123] And we weren't necessarily a very affectionate family.

[124] So I then struggled growing up.

[125] as an adult because I didn't really learn affection.

[126] I didn't, you know.

[127] That's exactly what I referred to before.

[128] No, we didn't have that.

[129] My parents, my parents already divorced when I was seven, eight.

[130] So dad left at one point in the house.

[131] He was present when I had to go to training or games or coming around at times.

[132] But he left when I was eight.

[133] So I technically grew up with my mom.

[134] but even when they were together is exactly what you said I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging you know, when I said that I'm not complaining it wasn't hell, please, by any means but there wasn't a lot of love that side of the emotion I didn't know it and even more so when you grew up in this type of neighborhood that amplify also what was happening at home like it's more of a be rough anger you're the man you're a man be strong don't cry you know uh i didn't know how to out to open up talking how the problem maybe i need help i don't know those those tools i didn't know i didn't have a door first and foremost to be able to know uh what it was was, I'm sure you understand what I mean.

[135] Like, even until now, when I heard my mom, it's weird.

[136] Yeah.

[137] Like, and I know people go like, come on, it's weird.

[138] You know, I'll, you know, I won't stay too long.

[139] You know what I mean?

[140] Like, I'm like, okay, that's enough now.

[141] I mean, maybe I went too far with it.

[142] Did I go too far?

[143] You know, because I don't know.

[144] It stayed.

[145] It stayed.

[146] I didn't know.

[147] I didn't know how to deal with.

[148] that, was I even aware of it?

[149] It's when then I went to other people's houses.

[150] Later on, or when you speak with people and they tell you they have discussions about whatever.

[151] I'm like, what?

[152] You guys discuss?

[153] You talk?

[154] All right.

[155] It must be nice.

[156] Not in a bad way, understand me well.

[157] But that's how I was.

[158] You know, you get on with it, you get used to it, it becomes a norm.

[159] Who could you speak to back then?

[160] Nobody.

[161] But understand me well, I didn't know that I had to speak to people to feel well.

[162] I didn't know anything else.

[163] So I can't be sitting here saying, oh, I don't wish anything.

[164] I just didn't know that when you had a problem, you talk about it.

[165] Whatever it is, you had a fight.

[166] you feel well about or you were ashamed about you go home how was your day good about if you've been you know something happened and headmaster called at home or whatever it is and then and then you didn't do your homework or whatever but if you ask me are you okay I'm okay did you get more attention when things didn't go well when you were naughty or you know maybe that's also the norm so you get attention for that yeah yeah that That was, this is where, you know, that stayed with me up until now.

[167] My attention to details comes from the fact that it was always what I didn't do.

[168] That mattered.

[169] So if I walk in the room, I can struggle with see what's wrong.

[170] Never was good, which is I'm working on.

[171] It did help me in my life and it still does help me because I can assess the situation pretty quick and see if something is going to go south or not.

[172] or if there is something wrong or whatever, I will notice it straight away.

[173] You know, it comes with a cost.

[174] Yeah, it does.

[175] Obviously, he does.

[176] But like I said, like I said to you, I can't help myself.

[177] Like, it was always what I didn't do.

[178] To whoever, my mom, my dad, you know, it was tough.

[179] Caribbean, Caribbean way.

[180] It's just what, you know, you didn't do enough.

[181] My dad was very particular at times on our eyes as a prior, as a little boy.

[182] It was always like, you didn't do that well.

[183] So obviously, when you hear that more often than not, that's what's going to stay.

[184] This is part of the sort of immigrant story of survival.

[185] When you come to a new place, parents aren't focused on self -actualization or happiness or fulfillment.

[186] They're focused on, you know, you better survive.

[187] you better get an education.

[188] And that defense, they're almost in defense mode.

[189] You got to fit.

[190] Yeah.

[191] You got a fit.

[192] So make sure you, you know, it's going to be, it is a cliche thing.

[193] And I'm sure you heard it at home.

[194] It's going to be twice as out for you to get a job.

[195] So you grew up with that.

[196] You grew up with, oh, I can't make any mistakes.

[197] Where did football come into this?

[198] Oh, only doors, only doors.

[199] My dad, this is, I don't say it so many times, this is exactly what he said the first time he took me in his arm.

[200] He didn't say, people joke about it up until now because that's story, it's known.

[201] But I didn't say that, you know, oh, my God, it looks like me, or it doesn't look like me, or he has a big forehead or massive lips or a big nose, or whatever you say, oh, my God, oh, he's not a good -looking one.

[202] You know, whatever.

[203] The first thing he did say is he put me in, yeah, this is what my uncle's amount, he said.

[204] He said, this baby will be an amazing football player.

[205] This is what he said.

[206] And I know people will say, yeah, right.

[207] This is exactly what he said.

[208] And he puts me down.

[209] Then he put me down.

[210] How do you feel about that?

[211] Weird because, you know, weird and weird.

[212] happy and at times why and thank God but I wish and I will explain because after that you can imagine what comes next he's going to fulfill the prophecy so what come next is that I was programmed to succeed so whatever what was going to happen was always going to happen.

[213] You know, he took me on the field.

[214] I was maybe five, six to, I'm, it's funny how you don't remember stuff at times that early, but I do remember the first time it took me on the field just to, just to strike the ball, just to strike the ball, just to strike the ball.

[215] And that's about it.

[216] And from that point, it was always a mission.

[217] I was on the mission to, to fulfill.

[218] feel his dream to please him to and by the way don't get me wrong at the time I don't know how much I liked it I cannot I don't know all I knew is I didn't hate it was it your choice definitely not my choice early doors what choice do you have anyway when you're young if your mom wants to play piano it's at one point you turn and you go like, hey, I've had enough of the piano or you have had enough of the guitar or I've had enough of judo or I've had enough of track and field, mom, you know, but this is what I'm saying.

[219] Whether I thought about it or I didn't think about it, could I, could I have said that I didn't want it?

[220] You know, when he picked you up as a baby and said this baby is going to be an amazing football player, do you wish he said something else?

[221] It's a tough one.

[222] I don't know.

[223] I don't know because look at where I am.

[224] Look at what happened.

[225] You wish he added a sentence, honestly.

[226] It's just when you hear what he said, that you can understand in a way exactly what we're going to talk about, obviously.

[227] Do I wish that he said something else?

[228] Not at that moment knowing my dad, but do I wish that he behave a certain way after?

[229] Yes.

[230] But what he said is what he said.

[231] You know, some people said different stuff and he didn't have an impact on your life or not.

[232] We're talking about it because I became a football player.

[233] Or maybe if I didn't, I wouldn't have been here to tell you my story.

[234] Also.

[235] So no, what he said, it's okay.

[236] it's what came after that had an impact on me. He takes you out into the pitch you're five or six years old.

[237] He gets you doing practice of kicking the ball, kicking the ball.

[238] I'm assuming at this time because he's divorced your mother, your relationship with him, the center of your relationship sort of has this gravitates around football.

[239] That is the relationship.

[240] Mainly.

[241] I know that's, you know, apart from holidays, and then, you know, I'm going to see him because at one point he went back to live in Guadalupe.

[242] So I'm going to see him back there.

[243] I know I was saying him at the weekend or he's coming to get me for training.

[244] So it's even like a double thing.

[245] I know I see him a lot thanks to football.

[246] And I know if I want to make him happy, it will be through football.

[247] How did you know that?

[248] well, first and first of all is because he said it.

[249] And I knew what he said.

[250] I knew what he said because everyone told me after what he said.

[251] And the way he behaved, I knew, like, if I want to make him happy, it can only be that.

[252] And you wanted to make him happy?

[253] Yeah, it's, it's, I think we had a discussion that talked about it.

[254] But, yeah, it's, it's, I always say, and I think I said it, what you fear will master you.

[255] So my fear and what was the most difficult thing for me to do as a man and as a player ever was to please my dad.

[256] That was the hardest thing I had to deal with, to please my dad.

[257] And as you can imagine, I heard it after.

[258] Terry, you're great, oh my God, oh, my this, or my dad, or from everybody or whatever.

[259] But the little me never heard it.

[260] It was always what I didn't do.

[261] So obviously you're always trying to get the nod, the approval.

[262] You were great.

[263] You're progressing.

[264] It's always no, you miss this or you miss that.

[265] So for a very long time, up until not that long ago, always my thing was to place people because I never got that access that access was never granted when I was young on that subject understand well on that subject I was always looking for that approval which when I was young never came at that age do you then almost without knowing it start to associate your sense of self, your sense of worth, with your performance on the pitch.

[266] Because it sounds like your father, maybe intentionally or unintentionally, has programmed this belief into you that if you do well on the pitch, then you are worthy.

[267] Oh, you're lovable.

[268] I didn't even think about anything else than pleasing him.

[269] I wasn't even thinking about what he can do for me after.

[270] But because I was always trying to do that, then he carried on with very much.

[271] everything.

[272] I never wanted to let my teammates down.

[273] I always wanted to please them.

[274] I always wanted to please the fans.

[275] I always wanted to please because I grew up with wanting to please him.

[276] So I never stopped.

[277] You're looking for for something that came from obviously what happened to you young.

[278] So he helped me because at one point he works, he works with sports because it's great to stay on your, you know, to stay grounded.

[279] It's another day.

[280] I need to be the best.

[281] So that at one point connected well.

[282] But technically he didn't help the little me or he didn't help so much the human being.

[283] He did, to a degree, help the athlete.

[284] Because he works.

[285] Like, don't be, you know, too satisfied with what you have.

[286] Tomorrow's another day, you need to be good again.

[287] So I was like, okay, I need to be the best.

[288] I need to please everybody again today.

[289] I need to, you know, my happiness and my sadness is, was always through people.

[290] Because I didn't know.

[291] I didn't know, you know, what used to make me sad or not sad.

[292] I was always through, you know, like, you said, oh, no, you're happy?

[293] Yeah.

[294] You know, but me, I was always like kind of, I won't say dead.

[295] The word is not dead, but expressing my feelings was very difficult.

[296] Apart, rage and anger.

[297] Raj and anger is easy.

[298] Why?

[299] Because it's same.

[300] It's something that I didn't do.

[301] So I'm getting upset.

[302] So it gives me fuel always.

[303] He helped the athlete, but he didn't help the human.

[304] No. What was the human missing?

[305] What should he have given?

[306] About everything.

[307] The human being was missing almost everything.

[308] But you need to understand, like, I left my house, I was 13.

[309] you know people don't realize that who are you who are you at 13 years old you leave your house and you're already dealing with the pressure of succeeding because you're trying to enter claifontein so already here is competition what is claifontaine for people that don't know it's a preschool pre -formation you you have to pass four so one weekend you come they take the best 20, then they do the same in the around, not far from Paris.

[310] Then the weekend after that, you have the 20 from that place, 20 from that place, 20 from Paris, then you bring it down to 40, you bring down to 20, and eventually, obviously, the 20 goes to that school of Claire Fontaine to teach you how to play football, and you go to school from, by the way, 8 to 3.

[311] After that, you play football.

[312] For people that don't know as well, because I was reading about Clair Fontaine, it's considered to be the elite sort of academy.

[313] France.

[314] I read that around 1 ,600 trial for the program and out of which 23 are selected per year.

[315] Yeah.

[316] Yeah.

[317] So that's, this is like the SAS of football in France.

[318] It is.

[319] It is.

[320] And a lot of players came from there.

[321] Me. If I gave you me, Anelca, Mbapé, Galas, you know, we, we, you know, Papin, I don't know if you remember Jean -Pier Papin, but a lot of players came from, from that academy.

[322] So my friend in the, in our team here is French.

[323] And he was with us in Paris when we first met and he said if you go to Claire Fontaine your chance of becoming a professional football is like 95%.

[324] It's like 90%.

[325] It's like that's the elite.

[326] Yes, but in 95, yeah, you have a chance, but not a lot of those guys, it's still very minimum the guys that made it.

[327] Interesting.

[328] The guys that went there still very minimum.

[329] This is why, you know, the usual 2 % success in 1990.

[330] I don't.

[331] You know, to be part of the 2 % it's very difficult but to go back to what we're saying it does have an impact on a human being because you didn't have a normal young life it's not the same what you're exposed to right from the start is very difficult to deal with there was no time to be a child it sounds like no not at all and like i said you don't think about it you think, I think about it now.

[332] This is why I said to you, I can now see that the human being is missing a lot.

[333] Have you learned a lot of these insights from watching your kids get to just play and be kids?

[334] I use that lines often.

[335] You know, I got educated and my kids are re -educating me. You know, my kids save me. they're all saving me every day every day I see something new that teaching me to be a dad a better dad not a better dad than my dad this is the one I'm saying myself a better dad and and they're opening doors that I didn't know how to deal with you know it's it's it's it's very you know sometimes when you like I can see sometimes when they look at me, how much they love me, and how much like, they like, oh, dad.

[336] But if they only knew, actually, I look at them the same way, you know, thanks for being here because it would have been tough.

[337] Because, you know, as an athlete, as long as you stay within that frame, you can feed whatever you need to feed to satisfy that little thing that you have, your ego, you're avoiding your problems because you prefer to be the athlete than the human being because then the athlete it's easier you know what to do well I knew what to do even if it was painful whatever I knew what to do this is why when you go there it's so it's easy for a little while when you have your career but I think I think you remember that as an athlete it and I say it and I will maintain it.

[338] You die when you stop.

[339] The athlete a competitor dies.

[340] I can never play again in the prem.

[341] I can never play for France anymore.

[342] I don't care what people say you can play football.

[343] None of that level.

[344] Not competing the way I used to compete.

[345] And that part of me died.

[346] So people don't teach you to die.

[347] So now you are going to face all your problems.

[348] Because you could put them on the side.

[349] because you're playing games because you have other things that will cover that.

[350] But once everything stops, we're not used to be at home.

[351] We're not used to deal with a normal life since I'm 13.

[352] I never had a normal life.

[353] Understand me well, I'm not complaining.

[354] I'm just saying to go back, like to the real world, it's a shock to the system because you're actually technically not equipped to live in that world.

[355] It's an interesting comparison to make, but when you hear people talk in these terms, you think of someone that had been incarcerated in jail or you think of someone that went off to maybe the military and then returned after war to a normal life and couldn't sort of acclimatized to what it meant to just sit in silence alone.

[356] And in many respects, although those examples are quite extreme in many cases, your experience of being a football player since sort of five years old being drafted into this elite academy at 13 years old, and then spending the rest of your career in sort of institutions where high -performance institutions, where, as you say, you were distracted from having to think about being a human and you were an athlete.

[357] Your identity was an athlete.

[358] Your expectations were based on being an athlete.

[359] Your sense of validation came from being an athlete.

[360] And suddenly, boom.

[361] It's over.

[362] Look, actors often go into depression or problem when they go into a character for a movie because at one point they don't know who they are anymore they become that character so when you put that cape as a player for more than 20 years and you have to be what you have to be for people because you might transcend them because of what you transmit the feeling that you have of your club and with the fans that that that that that, you know, that almost like, you're like, yeah, I belong.

[363] When I had to fit in for a very long time, now I belong.

[364] When that goes, can't wear that cape anymore.

[365] And when you wear that cape, you feel different.

[366] Responsibilities, performing, losing, winning doesn't matter, but you know the next day what you need to do in order to compete.

[367] Put the cape on.

[368] When you leave that cape, it's like you're naked.

[369] like oh wait i'm gonna admit it now they see my weakness they see my things you see your weakness you feel it it's different you know when it's like whatever it is for you that when you put your cap you're like okay you know put it down you're like oh i don't like i don't like that so much you know so how do you deal with that is what i mean when i say you die obviously it's strong understand me well with what's happening in the world in the world at a minute, maybe it is strong to say.

[370] But that part of me died, never come back.

[371] That can never come back.

[372] A singer can sing.

[373] You can have your concert up until, I can't, I can't play anymore.

[374] They have to deal with that.

[375] And that, it's tough to deal with.

[376] It's tough to deal with because that's your medicine.

[377] I can't take it anymore.

[378] So there's another life.

[379] there is obviously it's not the end.

[380] But you need to learn now to be at home.

[381] To connect with your misses, to connect with your kids.

[382] Because the way of connecting before was very minimal when you think about it.

[383] You're never at home.

[384] So now you arrive at home when you stop your career.

[385] You're like a guest.

[386] Well, that's what you do, you guys, when I used to play.

[387] You know, it's not.

[388] understand me well I'm not complaining I'm not saying you know people have you know I understand I'm just trying to explain what I went through what I'm going through Arson became it seems from reading your story a bit of a substitute father for you at one point when you moved to AS Monaco after Clefonte 10 so you were 17 years old when you moved there Arson's the manager at Monaco at the time does he because this relationship relationship you have with arson, you know, at that time you go off to Monaco, I think there's a little bit of a sort of a disconnect from your father in some way.

[389] Is that accurate?

[390] Yeah.

[391] Yeah, well, the thing is, how do you tell your dad that he needs to step aside in order for me to have my career, it's my life?

[392] When he did everything for you at that moment, as a dad, by the way.

[393] but how do you make him understand and now I need to fly alone.

[394] Is that a conversation?

[395] Is it?

[396] No, it wasn't a conversation.

[397] No, it wasn't.

[398] That never happened.

[399] I just, I made him understand.

[400] You made him understand.

[401] Yeah.

[402] The look, the, the, the, you know, making, you know, making, you know, making sure that he was understanding that he couldn't come anymore.

[403] But, you know, if he's asking me for some tickets, I wasn't maybe sending them at times or stuff like that, you know, because talking was tough.

[404] So you indirectly...

[405] Yeah, you do, you do, you do.

[406] No, it's not rejecting, but it was too much at one point.

[407] What was too much?

[408] But the pressure of pleasing him, the constant...

[409] He was always there, which was good, don't get me wrong.

[410] But it's like for everybody, you're not going to be always on top of your kids in whatever.

[411] Because at the end of the day, you don't help them.

[412] I needed to make mistakes by myself.

[413] Have you got specific memories of when you thought you played well, but he just...

[414] Oh, so many.

[415] I mean, that one also is very famous in France.

[416] People still talk to me about it.

[417] They still, when they see me in the street, they said the name of the team that I played against.

[418] Yeah, it's a very famous one.

[419] It's a true story.

[420] We played a game.

[421] I was 15.

[422] Already, then you can see if someone is kind of good or not good.

[423] We won a game 6 -0.

[424] I scored the six goals.

[425] And I know we're back.

[426] So I step out of the game.

[427] And I knew, I'm sure you're the same.

[428] If I was like this, I swear, you believe me or you don't believe me, the aura of my dad, I'm.

[429] I knew, even without looking at him, if the man was happy or not.

[430] So if you're turned around, you can feel it.

[431] Even before, like, it was that powerful.

[432] You could just feel his energy.

[433] I could feel it.

[434] And he wasn't happy.

[435] I turned and I saw it.

[436] I could, I can tell you any posture.

[437] And I knew if he was happy, not happy or, or whatever.

[438] we arrived in the car you know silence so I'm like shall I talk shall I know talk okay like you know so yeah it's exactly how we were so it goes like you're happy so I'm like what shall I answer yeah yeah but you shouldn't because you miss that thing you miss that control you miss that cross you miss that this you miss that that at him is that then I arrive at my mom's house I always remember he dropped me at my mom's house I go up and I'm walking like this my mom is like did you lose I said no we want six nil and I scored the six goals and then she looked at me going in yeah it was often like that why was he doing that in your view I don't know like I always say you know I tried to come to you know to come to terms with it but you need to understand something like my dad never read my dad never traveled my dad knows only one way his way and what has been told and if I compare how I've been brought up to how he's been brought up there's a world so for him he already you know put that down so you can't You can't be upset with someone that tries to do his best and educate you with his tools.

[439] I don't have the same tools.

[440] My box of tools has more tools and my kids will have more tools than me. So you can't, you know, you can't be upset with that one.

[441] You have to come to terms with how it was.

[442] That's how it was.

[443] now you need to accept it but digesting it is when it becomes tricky because you can always accept everything but the impact that he has on you after it's on new to deal with that the values he he gave you and you learned growing up up until you you know you ultimately move on to you know Juventus and Arsenal the values that made you successful in hindsight when you look back, what are those values that are transferable to any industry or any discipline that put you where you are?

[444] Because, listen, people can be born with great genetics, they can be born with whatever.

[445] But that isn't enough.

[446] It's been proven time and time again that that isn't enough to reach the highest of the highs and have a statue of yourself over there in London.

[447] There's got to be a mindset, a character or values underneath there that creates that that, that legend.

[448] Not so many things, but that I understood.

[449] And you know, you talk about also and a lot of guys that I came across in my career helped me develop something that was in me. I do believe that we all have, we all have something in.

[450] Now, are we going to develop it?

[451] It's a different ballgame.

[452] As you know, my upbringing was rough.

[453] strict.

[454] But it can go both ways.

[455] Yeah.

[456] Can make you or break you.

[457] I decided it was going to make me. But I had to put my dad on the side at one point.

[458] I had to put everybody on the side at one point.

[459] And concentrate to the path.

[460] Now we're talking about, it's a different topic now.

[461] We're going to talk about what I became.

[462] And in bracket, the animal I became when I was a player.

[463] That's a different ball game.

[464] That comes with seeing Dennis Berk and every morning working hard.

[465] That comes with seeing all those players at one stuff working out and I'm looking at it and I'm like, how am I going to move those guys?

[466] If you add obviously what my dad gave me never be satisfied, do more.

[467] It's always what you didn't do well.

[468] You know, obviously I had a certain attribute I was fast.

[469] That's the only attribute I had when I was young.

[470] I was fast.

[471] You have guys that are technical or see the game or whatever awareness or whatever I was just fast so I had to work really hard and I know people would say oh my God okay that cliche sentence no I had to work really hard every day my left foot was poor header forget about it and I still didn't manage to be better during my career I got a tiny bit better but I work three kick I'm going to take a free kick anything you know repetition is key Repetition, I always say, creates habit.

[472] You know, so I knew, I knew I wasn't as gifted as so many players, although I did everything that you're supposed to do.

[473] I went to Claifonte, I play under 15, France, under 16, under 17, under 18, under 19, under 19, under 21, first team.

[474] So people want to see my path, they always go like, yeah, I mean, it was always going to be, no, not true.

[475] Not true.

[476] I always had to battle.

[477] But when you knew that the hardest thing I had to do was to please my dad, the rest was nothing for me in bracket.

[478] Not disrespecting anything that happened in my career.

[479] But that was so easy compared to what I had to do in order to please the old man. And my young self is still waiting for that approval.

[480] Still?

[481] Yeah, I'm trying to connect with the little man. He said, you know, I'm going to a different.

[482] different discussion now, but I'm still trying, I'm trying to connect with the little man. But you go back, I go back too, sorry to what you asked me. What did it teach me is obviously to never give up, do more, but there's something that was missing that I understood late.

[483] And I think for me, the best leader you can be, the leader or the greatest leader do have that.

[484] And I was missing that for a very long time.

[485] Which in sport, because you have to play a game and you have to, you're not here to, you know, how you have a problem, more or less have a talk about it.

[486] You know, when you play, you play it's stuff during a season, stuff, during a game and stuff.

[487] But vulnerability and empathy was missing.

[488] Those are the two greatest point of a leader for me. When you show vulnerability and obviously you show empathy, you can go places.

[489] you can go places because if your group knows that you're like them and they can relate although you might be as you can you might be hard as you know what they they will follow you but in football because of how it is because it is taboo sometimes to be vulnerable it is taboo to show emotion you know the emotion that emotion the crying the days that especially in my time in a dressing room you couldn't say anything it's a bit more accepted now if you say I'm not well mentally and thank God for that by the way but all the above that you can imagine for me it was always trying to be the best version that I can be every day did you think you were going to be the player you become no how do you how do you look I just wanted to please my dad how am I going to think that I If I saw it, I'm going to have a statue in front of the Emirates.

[490] I mean, how?

[491] Even when you were playing at Arsenal and you were winning them golden boots and you were winning everything and the invincibles and all of that, you were still trying to please your dad.

[492] At your core.

[493] In a way, yeah, I couldn't see it.

[494] That constant look of, to not name a movie, the pursuit of happiness or the pursuit of pleasing people.

[495] I love that movie.

[496] so I'm um yeah but I was that that that was my that that's it's kind of weird when I always say when your medicine is your poison because you always chase that were you happy um I don't know I never asked myself that question I couldn't care less I just couldn't care less like you saw it you I mean you saw me play so I couldn't care less you saw me I was my face was always hard.

[497] It was always, you know, I could smile.

[498] It's funny.

[499] I always say, and this is why I always said to people.

[500] And in France, they used to have a go at me because I never used to celebrate my goals.

[501] I always used to stand in a stoic manner, a way, or, you know, always proud or rage.

[502] But people never used to see.

[503] When I used to give an assist, I always use a smile.

[504] Pleasing.

[505] Watch, assist, smile, goal, rage.

[506] it's weird but pleasing again giving was always always smiling you see even now a smile but goal no goal was just like that's what you had to do man because you're making the player that you've given the goal happy I guess you're giving them it's interesting because people who grew up in environments where they had a parent or parents that they were trying to please often tend to exhibit two traits one of them is being an empath the term empath is like being so emotional sensitive to how everyone's feeling in every room all the time, because that started at a young age with, you know, constantly, you know.

[507] And then the second is people pleasing.

[508] And they always say people pleases start with trying to please one or more of their parents.

[509] And it's funny, there's a cliche about comedians, right?

[510] Comedians, whenever I sit with a comedian, the question is always, which one of your parents was depressed?

[511] Which one of the parents were you trying to put a smile on their face?

[512] And there's this cliche that comedians are depressed.

[513] Whereas when I've interviewed comedians, they say, no, no, no, no, no. I know, it's my dad that was depressed.

[514] And at four, I was trying to make him smile.

[515] And it's so interesting that in your case as well, it was a very similar thing.

[516] This question, though, like, all of these great achievements, you know, won the World Cup, you know, the Invincible Team, all these trophies, the height, the peak of your powers, and you can't tell me whether you were happy or not.

[517] No. No, because for me, I did what I had to do.

[518] When you went home, though, when you went home after a great game, you get home.

[519] If I'm a fly on the wall in that room, do I see a man that's happy?

[520] Yes, for a little while.

[521] And then you, because that's how the game is, you know, I was talking about Gary Klitschie, which is my assistant and I, you know, played at Man City and Arsenal with me. the other day we were in camp with the national team obviously being my assistant said to me Cherie you remember what you did one day I'm like I don't know man I said we won the league so he won the league with us when we stayed invincible he said to me okay where is the party tonight we're going and everything said I'm not going to no party tonight he said yeah but everybody's going I said yeah I'm not everybody party.

[522] Stayed home.

[523] He said, why?

[524] I said, we have the euro going home.

[525] Everyone went to the party.

[526] I didn't.

[527] So understand.

[528] For me, it was like, hey, I have the euro.

[529] Just the next thing.

[530] Yeah.

[531] So you tend at one point not to enjoy it while you're playing.

[532] That was my way.

[533] Was it the right way or not?

[534] I don't know, but it was mine.

[535] So girl was like, you were crazy.

[536] I said, I don't know if I was crazy.

[537] But that's how it was.

[538] For me, I have the euro.

[539] I need to concentrate for the euro.

[540] So I didn't go.

[541] Which on time can be seen as a guy that's keep himself to himself or doesn't want to belong in the team.

[542] Well, I surely did when I was on the field.

[543] For me, that's the only thing that matters.

[544] Are you going to cover me?

[545] We don't have to be, we don't have to be friends after that.

[546] It goes back to what you were taught to value, though.

[547] You weren't taught to value performance on the pitch you have to perform and so I said to you when you put that cape that's what is asked of you then when I arrive towards the end of my career I realized something I was big and something I was missing is I always thought that titles mattered and yes they do but I always thought that that's the only thing that mattered when it's not true it's not true it's how you it's how you I mentioned before is how you transcend and what you can transmit and also how you inspire people that matters and I never thought about it when I was playing again because I didn't have those tools also when you went off to Barcelona an adjustment period took place and you were married at the time and then you went through a divorce this question of love comes back into the picture you know if you'd grown up in that household where your parents got divorced when you were seven or eight years old you know you look back who taught you and then you were in academy at 13 so you get married marriage falls apart when you're in Barcelona who taught you how to be in a relationship nobody or to love a woman nobody you deal with it you learn you fail again you mentioned it arrived at Barcelona I arrived I was divorcing adapting to a new life new language new team new way of playing people don't care I don't ask people to care by the way because that's how it is but it's not easy it was stuff it was stuff don't see you don't see you know I couldn't see my daughter for a while you know and people expect you to perform so what do you do you put the cape on put the cape on because that's the only way so okay you put the cape on you're like okay and you do feel that everything goes away it's a feeling though it's an impression it's a lie but when i put that cape on i feel like you can't see that i'm hurt i feel like you can't see because now people see the player so in a in a in a weird way You want people to know, and you want people to know how you feel that you're not equipped right now to perform.

[548] And in the same time, you put it on because you don't want them to know.

[549] Do you understand what I mean?

[550] 100%.

[551] It's kind of weird.

[552] You're like, you know what?

[553] Let me put the cape on and then they will attack the player.

[554] You want help, but you don't want to ask for help.

[555] You do, but you don't.

[556] It's kind of weird.

[557] You want someone to go like, oh, this is what's happening to him.

[558] And you're like, thank you.

[559] but you don't want to say it.

[560] What were the symptoms?

[561] You said the word hurt.

[562] If I, again, if I was a flower on the wall in that room in Barcelona when you were alone, what was going on in your head?

[563] Well, just imagine I like to please people.

[564] And everything, everywhere was a no, no, I wasn't playing well.

[565] You're divorcing.

[566] So I'm feeling I'm letting my daughter down.

[567] I'm missing the fans down.

[568] I'm letting my friends down, myself down, everybody down.

[569] Just imagine how I am, I'm wanting to please people.

[570] and it wasn't happening.

[571] So, tough.

[572] Cape on, cap off.

[573] Tough.

[574] But the easiest way to deal with it was to put the cap on.

[575] When the cape's not on, what are your thoughts saying to at that time?

[576] Well, you kind of, as a human being, like, did I make the right choice?

[577] You know, and I said it, I think, at a particular moment, football wasn't really my priority if the cap was on on obviously but even before when the cap wasn't on was still football you need to rest you need to this you need to that but there it wasn't because it's actually technically and this is not me having a go at my dad or the relationship or anything but I was like you know when you swear that if you get married you never get divorced because you know and you know very little about life obviously And I was like, I know, this is exactly what happened to me or what's happening to me. What are you doing?

[578] You're repeating.

[579] Yeah, to yourself, like, you know, you kind of like, what are you doing?

[580] This is why I said, I say so many times, and I will say it again, my biggest fear is not to be a good dad.

[581] And so I was, in my mind, that doesn't mean, it's not because you're going to divorce, you're going to be a bad dad.

[582] But in my mind, I'm letting people down.

[583] I'm a bad dad, I'm a bad whatever.

[584] You know what I mean?

[585] My way of thinking, I'm like, and that's my biggest fear.

[586] Still now is to, you know, because I'm learning to be a dad.

[587] Like everybody, by the way.

[588] Because, you know, that's, but, you know, some doors I didn't have, some emotions I didn't have.

[589] I wasn't often at home.

[590] And still not often at home.

[591] Oh, when did you, what was the moment when you realized that your playing career was behind you?

[592] You know, you obviously went off to America for a while and then you transferred to the New York Red Bulls and then you retired at sort of 37 years old.

[593] But was there a moment where you realized a day where you thought, do you know what?

[594] I'm not going to be on the pitch as a professional player anymore.

[595] Yeah, there was a day and you might love.

[596] My daughter was at home in New York.

[597] I suffered over Achilles' problem for more than 10 years, both sides.

[598] I was in pain every morning, really.

[599] Pain.

[600] Pain was never going away all day, both sides, both of my Achilles.

[601] Sometimes I felt a bit better, sometimes no, every morning.

[602] I was in pain, afternoon night for 10 years.

[603] So I'm at home with my daughter and she comes close to me and she touches me and she goes, you hit.

[604] And she ran.

[605] I wanted to run.

[606] I couldn't.

[607] I wanted to run.

[608] I couldn't.

[609] I looked at her.

[610] I said, hey, you won.

[611] I couldn't chase her.

[612] And I stopped.

[613] I went, what are you doing?

[614] Like, I couldn't.

[615] I just couldn't.

[616] I'm not even joking, Stephen.

[617] And I, she ran, and I just couldn't move.

[618] What are you doing?

[619] That's when I knew I couldn't handle pain anymore.

[620] Because this is why it is.

[621] People forget about anything that you can think of.

[622] You need to love pain to be an athlete.

[623] And I know, no pain, no this, whatever, all the, you know, the, Oh, my, no, this is real.

[624] You need to love pain.

[625] However, mentally, physically, love it.

[626] You need to love it.

[627] If not, stay where you are.

[628] And then you retire eventually at 37 years old from professional football.

[629] What happens then?

[630] I was in a way happy.

[631] I'll tell you why.

[632] Because I stopped.

[633] Some people stopped because of injuries.

[634] Some people stopped because of different stuff.

[635] I stopped.

[636] It wasn't my terms.

[637] I stopped.

[638] You know, it's better.

[639] And people were like, Terry, you still can play.

[640] Oh, I knew I could still play.

[641] But I stopped.

[642] So I didn't have a problem with stopping.

[643] Like, you know, the fear that day.

[644] I didn't have a problem with that.

[645] But I didn't know what's going to come after.

[646] You prepare yourself, you pass your badges.

[647] You, you know, you prepare yourself mentally and whatnot.

[648] But then, how do you feed the competitor?

[649] how do you feed the guy I love to please?

[650] When he can do it or not every three days?

[651] When did you know that you were struggling?

[652] When I was aware, because the Cape was always my thing to make sure that when I felt the struggle coming, Cape.

[653] So I knew it before, but I was lying to myself.

[654] or I was going to make sure that that feeling wasn't going to go too far.

[655] So I put the cape on.

[656] But then when you're not a player anymore, you can't put that cape anymore.

[657] So then everything starts to creep in.

[658] You know, you think you go back to what happened, what you became, how you were with people, how you behave with people.

[659] Were you a good guy, not a good guy?

[660] was it necessary sometimes not necessary you start to replay everything in your head on how you were what you did and packed you had on people the pack that you had on yourself what type of person you want to be for your kids and that's when it becomes scary because you don't have the answers because usually I have the answers for everything Terry tomorrow or that guy I'm going to work out on that work on this going to be better next weekend I'm going to work on this are going to work on that don't worry about it going to work you know what next year next year you'll see I'll come back by left foot going to be sound my this my this my this my this my this my this my dad add answers now all I had these questions that's about it too many questions brain thinking other thinking and when you overthink usually you don't go to the positive thinking when you overthink you you tend to bring yourself down and whatever wasn't good in your life, you try to find a way to make sure that you can cover it.

[661] But KEP wasn't around anymore, so how do you do that?

[662] Were you sad?

[663] No, sad, no. Sad would not be the word.

[664] I wasn't sad, but I was trying to find an explanation of what happened to me, regardless of why it is.

[665] because I'm a guy that likes to have an explanation.

[666] I need to know why.

[667] And when you cannot answer it, it is annoying.

[668] I find that annoying when I cannot.

[669] And not everything has an explanation.

[670] But this is the way I am.

[671] I always need to have a logical or illogical explanation.

[672] Even if your explanation is not logical, explain something to me. So when I cannot understand and comprehend what's happening to me, it's a tough one what's happening to you in that moment post retirement or what happened to you in your career everything everything came at once especially during COVID time because that's when I really stopped because again I was trying to find a way to find that cape so you pass your badges you're becoming a coach you try to do something to make sure that you're not going to think about what's been chasing me for a very long time when are you going to deal with what happened to you whatever it is to you to me to whoever but we we we tend to run instead of facing our problems that's what we do all the time you stay busy you you try to avoid the problem or not think about it but in COVID happened and when COVID happened what are you running where are you running what are you doing was uh you know isolated in Montreal for a year not for a year I would say whenever the three month and another two more or whatever it was and not being able to see my kids for a year was tough was tough because I mean it's the title right so I don't need to even explain that one but yeah it was tough because something like that had to happen to me for me to understand vulnerability empathy crying You know, I understand that emotions are emotion just don't become it.

[673] You know, it's, you know, anger is normal.

[674] Jealousy is normal, but don't become jealous.

[675] Anger is normal.

[676] Don't become angry.

[677] You know, I couldn't, I couldn't like if I, before, if I, if I feel anger, man, I've become angry.

[678] If I was a, again, the question I asked earlier, if I was a fly on the wall in quarantine, what watching you.

[679] What would I have seen?

[680] Me crying almost every day for no reason.

[681] Tears were coming alone.

[682] Why, I don't know.

[683] Maybe they were waiting for, they were there for a very long time.

[684] I was crying for everything.

[685] Everything, watching a movie that's not even really sad, but I'm crying.

[686] You know, everything.

[687] I don't know if that needed to come out.

[688] I don't know if, you know, it was weird, in a good way.

[689] In a good way, there were some stuff that I couldn't control.

[690] And to be fair, I didn't try to control them.

[691] And that's, you know, and I couldn't hide them.

[692] I couldn't surprise them, man. Do you want to even to surprise them, really?

[693] You know, but you've been told since you're young, whether it was at home or in your job, don't be that guy, man. don't show that you're vulnerable if you cry what they're going to think which is it's not the end of the world but for me when I was young I saw someone crying I'm like what are you doing man you know I'm like really type of thing so it was yeah you would have seen me crying you would have seen me technically it wasn't me it wasn't me it was the young me it was me understand what I'm saying but it was the young the young theory there what was he crying for well for everything he didn't get approval it's kind of way to say that approval I got that I still get that all the time but I didn't want to hear it you know it wasn't it wasn't like it was coming but not feeding my little man so my little man at one point to control of that body and and it was tough you know you need to have the balance, this is what I'm trying to do now, to have the balance between me and my inner child, which is not an easy one.

[694] This is why I always say to people, once you have that discussion with that little guy inside you, it's scary, man. It is scary because what is going to tell you is everything that you didn't want to hear or trying to avoid for a very long time.

[695] And it took control.

[696] And what did he tell you?

[697] Let's be yourself, be human.

[698] show you are, really.

[699] Stop fronting, stop lying, because we're liars.

[700] We pretend.

[701] We live in the world right where, let's all be honest.

[702] We live in the world where we both been told, do not judge the book by his cover, right?

[703] We do the total opposite.

[704] Every day we do the total opposite.

[705] Go and try to find a job with a tracksuit.

[706] And you arrive with your hood on, walk in, and see if they're going to receive you.

[707] But we've been told, since we're young, right, Stephen, do not judge the book by his cover.

[708] That's a lie.

[709] That's all we do.

[710] Our parents matter.

[711] And then we keep on saying to our kids, no, the look doesn't matter.

[712] Really?

[713] Luke doesn't matter.

[714] Let's all be honest.

[715] It does.

[716] We want to pretend our thing that you've been, we are saying the right things because it looks cool.

[717] But when it comes to do it, it is a different story.

[718] Look, We go, you know, this is why I like the movie Black Panther, you know, when he's in the museum.

[719] And the girl says, what are you doing here?

[720] I said, that's from my village.

[721] What are you talking about?

[722] So we have stuff that have been in the world stolen for however it was, however it happened or whatever, that are in museum, that maybe you from that part and you can't go in because you're not dress real or because, and people are making money out of those things.

[723] and, you know, what are we doing?

[724] What are we talking about?

[725] And we're sitting here trying to say all the time, pretending or whatever it is.

[726] It's a bit all false.

[727] So you tag along, you play the game, but that has an impact.

[728] I remember the first time I experienced something that would be considered a mental health issue.

[729] And I remember almost the shame I felt because I never thought that, As a young CEO at the age of 21, I always had to be the tough guy, but also I always thought those mental health challenges happened to other people.

[730] So there was almost a bit of struggle with my own sort of shame and accepting my own vulnerability that, do I talk to someone about this or do I keep it to myself?

[731] When you're in that room in COVID and you're crying every day and you don't know why, at that point do you have someone that you can talk to about how you're feeling?

[732] truly and be 100 % honest with how you're feeling all these years later you must have been more sort of 40 in your 40s yeah it was 2020 yeah it's tough it's tough because you know I'm trying to bring myself there it's very difficult because I don't know who the the human being was like I don't know I just didn't know Like I said to you I go back I didn't have those doors I didn't have those tools I didn't I didn't know I just didn't know everything was new for me that part of my body those doors that I didn't have before the understanding of that side of the of the game when I said the game talking about life obviously dealing with love and it was weird weird my way of dealing with love was like, you know, like I said, pleasing again, like, you know, giving presence to people.

[733] Oh my God, I'm happy.

[734] Then I asked myself that question, what makes you happy, Terry?

[735] Oof.

[736] What makes you happy?

[737] Obviously my kids.

[738] But again, it's my kids.

[739] What makes you happy?

[740] I had zero answer.

[741] Zero.

[742] So, you know, when you, it's kind of weird because when you look at it, this is what I would like to achieve, but it's virtually impossible whether you act with your brain or you act with your heart and at times both feels good especially with your heart because it brings different emotions and when you act with your brain it's a bit more no I'm not doing it here is like let's let's see what's going to happen right but both if you can balance your thoughts and the way you act and you can walk on the on a rope you know like the funeral we call them in tightrope yes and you are walking on there in harmony with your inner child connected balancing decision with your heart and decision with your brain that will be the that's in my head the image of the perfect human being you working on a tight rope with your inner child balancing decision with your brain and with your heart because if you go too much that side you're going to fall although you are in harmony with your inner child if you go that way you're also going to fall which we all know it's impossible but that's you know so I had to in my head create that picture that I have the tattoo of it by the way but I had to create that picture in order to see what I'm at aiming for.

[743] I needed that.

[744] I needed something.

[745] You know, before it was, you're trying to please your dad, whether I was aware or not aware of it.

[746] It doesn't matter.

[747] It was in me. What am I trying to do now?

[748] What is it?

[749] So I had to draw something.

[750] In that room, did you know, if I was in a room in the pandemic and I'd been, you know, the superstar athlete and then I find myself in the situation where I'm crying in the hotel or in the in the room are you self -diagnosing do you understand what that is at the time no but I had to do it so do the body the body okay the body does heal itself well if it's going to be beautiful or not it will eventually in a certain way heal itself and even if you walk in a weird way after you will walk your body will readjust or not why can you not heal yourself alone mentally to a certain degree because you need help i understand that but this is what i'm saying if you're exposed to something for so long it would have an impact on you but somehow along the way you did adapt to it Like you will adapt to living in a hot country or in a cold country.

[751] I go and said, how can you live here?

[752] You're like, I grew up here, man. So I got used to it.

[753] That doesn't mean it's okay.

[754] But you do in a way adapt to it.

[755] Or you learn how to live with it or you don't.

[756] So I did learn how to live with it with a lot of impact on me. As you can see, with a lot of consequences that I'm still trying to deal with.

[757] But yes, you do self.

[758] deal with it or self -diagnose yourself without realizing it.

[759] Did you, it sounds like you were struggling with a form of depression when you were in that phase of your life.

[760] Did you know that that's what it was?

[761] No. And did you...

[762] That's impossible.

[763] I don't know.

[764] I didn't know.

[765] In hindsight, do you think that's what it was?

[766] I would like to think so.

[767] But how do I know?

[768] Because I don't know the signals.

[769] Like, I cannot tell you that I was or wasn't.

[770] I don't know the signal.

[771] Like, I don't know.

[772] The shift said to me right now, I don't know.

[773] Like, if you give me any of the signals, not any of it.

[774] Let me tell you, anger, this and that.

[775] Yeah, oh, yeah, I wasn't angry, man. Yeah.

[776] Were you, I'm like.

[777] But how you've heard people characterize it now and describe it now, does that?

[778] Yeah, it does ring a bell, more than a bell.

[779] But was it, you know, look, I'm a human being.

[780] So I have feelings.

[781] throughout my career and since I was born, I must have been in depression.

[782] Did I know it?

[783] No. Did I do something about it?

[784] Obviously, no. But I adapted to a certain way.

[785] That doesn't mean I'm walking straight.

[786] But I'm walking.

[787] You got to put one foot and another one and walk.

[788] That's what I've been told since I'm young.

[789] And it doesn't matter where you're from.

[790] It doesn't matter what you do.

[791] It doesn't matter your job.

[792] You got to walk.

[793] You got to stand.

[794] No matter how the rough, the sea is, whatever it is, you got to stand and walk.

[795] And people have, you know, way out of life than I had, obviously.

[796] But I'm just saying it doesn't matter.

[797] You have to get up and walk.

[798] So do I realize because I never stopped walking?

[799] Then maybe I would have realized, COVID, I stopped walking.

[800] because I couldn't put a foot after and again I couldn't.

[801] I just couldn't, So that's where I was like, oh, I need to pose.

[802] Then you start to realize and you start to have a thing.

[803] Then you start to whatever.

[804] I know it's kind of a cliche one.

[805] You need to stand.

[806] It's not how you fall.

[807] It's how you stand.

[808] Yeah, we all know, right?

[809] Not trying to be, you know, clever here.

[810] But I've been told, you know, keep on walking.

[811] I say this because your story brings to light a bunch of statistics that I was reading about as it relates to mental health.

[812] Someone dies by suicide in the UK every 90 minutes, 76 % of these are male, 25 attempts for every death, single biggest cause of death for men under the age of 45 is suicide, single biggest cause of death for 15 to 49 year olds, 19 to 35 year olds, 19 to 35 year olds, are twice as likely to report being in the crime.

[813] These stats are absolutely shocking, and they're almost 80 % of this as men.

[814] It's the crazy stat that people always talk about, the single biggest cause of death if you're under the age of 45.

[815] I will, this is, please, this is not a sexist thing, or whatever, I don't want to enter the battle, men, women.

[816] This is not where I'm going.

[817] But it's not easy to be a man, that sheer pressure.

[818] And it is.

[819] And the stats, you know, will tell you.

[820] And I keep on saying, I don't know, this is not me trying to say that I thought about it or whatever, not at all, not that.

[821] But I told you that they are, I'm sure you remember, my kids saved me. And I'm not saying that just like that, but literally, I'll explain, yeah, I'll explain.

[822] I don't know where I was going mentally.

[823] I don't know.

[824] Really?

[825] I don't know where I was going.

[826] Because when I came back from COVID, I came back home, I didn't see.

[827] Because after that year, we were allowed back home.

[828] But then I knew if I was going back to Montreal, I don't know what was happening with COVID if I was going to not see my kids for a year or whatever.

[829] So I'm at home.

[830] Next thing, you know, it's a month, whatever.

[831] I packed my bags.

[832] I was about to leave again.

[833] So I said bye to my kids.

[834] Everybody was there.

[835] And do you remember when I told you my young me never got any approval, never got any recognition, no how can I explain that?

[836] No love in bracket apart from the, you know, the we have food, we have this way, was never a gig or saying or nodding or any approval like that.

[837] Pack my bag.

[838] I'm like, okay, that is about to leave.

[839] Next thing you know, I put my bags down.

[840] and everyone starts to cry so I put my back down to say bye to everybody and everybody starts to cry from the nanny to my girlfriend to the kids everybody was crying and then Stephen for the first time for the first time and I know people who say oh my god Terry for the first time because at that moment it was the little me that felt it.

[841] I'm like, oh, they see me. Not the football player, not the accolades, not the, and I felt human.

[842] Not, you know, me always trying to please people because, oh, you play football, or you can put your cape on, or this is why they like you, that's what they want to see.

[843] They want to see a guy that's strong, a guy that's going to perform, transmit, transcend, and inspire and the above.

[844] So be that guy.

[845] Okay, boom, let's do it again today.

[846] Let's do it again today.

[847] But for the first time that day, I was like, oh, they see me. They were crying because you were leaving.

[848] Yeah, but they were crying for me. They were not happy or crying for the athlete.

[849] Understand me well.

[850] I'm not saying they didn't before.

[851] I never realized it.

[852] I never felt it the first time there.

[853] And my little me for the first time got fed with love.

[854] Put my bags down, but I told you, and I stayed.

[855] I stopped coaching in Montreal.

[856] I said, what am I doing?

[857] What am I doing?

[858] Going to go again into a situation just because your pursuit of pleasing people and stuff and stuff.

[859] They love Terry, the kids.

[860] Not Terry Henry.

[861] They love theory.

[862] so I stayed and for the first time and I'm not scared to say it I felt human I felt like people like they saw me like the human being I was like that feels nice feels really nice this is why I said my kids saved me so I don't know where I was going I don't know if I was going to obviously go back not see them again I don't know where mentally that would have brought me I don't actually know but that day especially day for me because because yeah that what they did fed my little my little me and you know when you you you you've been looking for something for so long but you don't know what it was you just don't know it's annoying it's like you're looking for something you know you're looking for something but you don't know what it is and you've been thrown a lot of things no that's not it no that's not it no that's not it that's still not it still not it and then out of nowhere when I wasn't looking for anything it came but it was right in front of you the whole time yeah was I was I open enough to say it though that's the thing was I you know this is why COVID you know made me you know my vulnerability empathy understanding those emotions so the doors were there suddenly when that happened oh I was like oh that door that's a new door that's nice open boom done before like maybe that happened before I never felt it if you know what I mean it's kind of weird but I felt it that there though and it did resonate and you quit working in Montreal yeah straight away straight away reminds me, I got a flashback to speaking to Patrice, Patrice Evra.

[863] Patrice Evra grew up in the south of France, I believe, rough area.

[864] No, same town as me. Oh, same town.

[865] South of Paris, same town.

[866] We're from the same town.

[867] Sezulis.

[868] Patrice is a good friend of mine, and he told me, he shared it publicly on this podcast before, that he, I think he was 40 years old, and his partner at the time kept asking him like, you're okay, you're okay, are you okay?

[869] and then one day she's at home they're having a little bit of a tiff and she turns to him and goes Patrice are you are you happy and he looked at her and he burst into tears cried for the first time in his life and it sounds like a similar moment a similar sort of unlocking him was the first time in his life he could ever show that emotion and he said it was that moment the first time I ever cried first time I ever showed her emotion because up until then I'd been a tough guy and it was just a question asked at the right moment the right question from the right person that inspired him to boom and he says that's the moment that unlocked his emotions and obviously he's on a journey as well with it.

[870] Yeah, no, no, no, I know.

[871] Yeah, yeah.

[872] Yeah, Patrice.

[873] Look, it's...

[874] Yeah, this is why I literally say that they saved me because I don't know where I was going.

[875] I really don't know.

[876] I really don't know.

[877] But like I said, it's very difficult for me to compare to the way I was before and why you worked in bracket then and not before because I was blind.

[878] Like I just said, I said so many times, you know, I could see.

[879] So, for example, you put me on the field, I see solutions because I used to see the game with my brain, not with my eyes.

[880] I'd explain your dimensions on the field, right?

[881] right it's a rectangle yeah if you put your head up what can stop you this is why great players always pass the ball in the air you know when they arrive by the box they lift it how do you defend the air you can't defend the air so i always used to say like you can't pass me because they think that the line is there right i used to chip the ball over your leg because i can pass you how you can't defend the air 20 billion people defending me if you hold the line Bowling behind, you're dead, not on the ground, in the air.

[882] So I used to see the game with my brain.

[883] I see life of my eyes.

[884] An eyes that can be pretty deceiving.

[885] So, you know, I see obstacles.

[886] You see with your brain, you're like, okay, how can...

[887] Oh, I can go through there.

[888] Okay, no problem.

[889] But life, I used to see it.

[890] I'm trying to change, obviously.

[891] I used to say it with my eyes.

[892] So, no, no, no. But when he came to competing, it's like it's impossible that you can stop me. So, okay, oh, okay, that's a solution.

[893] You sound like a man that's been to therapy because you use terminology that I've typically heard from therapists, things like the inner child and...

[894] No, that's something that I've seen since I'm young.

[895] Oh, really?

[896] I always knew that I was disconnected with my little self.

[897] And the thing is, that's how I used to play.

[898] Disconnective?

[899] No, it's just I see, you know, since I'm young, like I see a solution.

[900] I guess someone says, we can't do this.

[901] I'm like, why?

[902] Why?

[903] It's like, you know, I mean, you saw me play.

[904] I used to come in midfield and take the ball and go, I'm going to go.

[905] And at a particular moment, anyone will go like, oh, it's impossible.

[906] It's one v9.

[907] And I explained some of the time it's not one v9.

[908] It's one v9.

[909] 1.

[910] If I beat you, I beat the line of 4.

[911] If I beat you my centerback after, I beat the line of 4.

[912] Then I beat the goalkeeper.

[913] It's 1v1 at the time.

[914] It's 1v1.

[915] It's 1v1.

[916] Then I score.

[917] While I do it or not, it's a different ballgame, but I was capable of visualizing, sorry, the path instead of seeing, so 1V9, let me put the ball back.

[918] Why?

[919] Why are you putting the ball back?

[920] Like, okay, Stephen one -v -one.

[921] I don't care about the two guys are on your side.

[922] If I beat you, they're dead.

[923] It's nothing they can do.

[924] Now, you and me after a center back, let's go.

[925] I'm not saying, and I didn't go through all the time.

[926] It's a lie.

[927] But I'm seeing the solution.

[928] So it's always something that I used to have.

[929] So, and again, to be in situation, I won't point need to over -analyze yourself.

[930] But am I seeing someone?

[931] Yes, I'm seeing someone.

[932] I'm not lying with that but the two points that you raised are always at that because I have I was annoying as a player and as a student I was always challenging my coaches always I needed to know why are we doing this drill I was never going to do a drill in training like boss why yeah but we don't need that in the game oh, how can you say that?

[933] Just being honest, I'll do it, but I don't think we need that in the game.

[934] I just wanted to know why we're doing this.

[935] Why is it going to be relevant to how we play?

[936] Like I got in trouble once at school.

[937] We were analyzing a poem, you know, oral, whatever.

[938] Tell you what you think of that poem, whatever.

[939] So I think the author wanted to say that whatever I said, the teacher was like no that's not what he meant I'm like wait can I speak I call Terry you always have something to say I said well not always but I mean anyway so I said to the teacher have you ever met Victor Hugo she said no I said how do you know what he meant then isn't the beauty of words can I not see something different that you see as long as you don't bring Victoria, go here and you tell me what he really meant, I'm not going to go with what you're saying.

[940] She sent me to the headmaster office.

[941] But what I'm trying to say, I was always that guy.

[942] Why are you going to tell me what I see of it?

[943] It's good.

[944] That's what you think.

[945] Maybe the guy was drunk when he wrote it.

[946] Maybe he was under something.

[947] I mean, one of the best Disney movie is Alice in Wonderland.

[948] I mean, when you look at, she clearly wasn't something.

[949] But it wasn't the beauty of letting someone open their mind.

[950] So I always have been big on that.

[951] Even young without realizing I needed to know.

[952] So just imagine now, knowing all the ingredients now about me, imagine now in that room over thinking.

[953] Yeah, in Montreal.

[954] Yeah.

[955] Because I need an explanation.

[956] That's why I'm saying someone.

[957] Because I need explanations.

[958] And sometimes you don't have all the tools.

[959] Are you still looking for answers?

[960] No. I'm trying to deal and digest with what happened.

[961] because now I have the answers.

[962] But it's not because you have the answers sometimes that you understand what happened.

[963] Yeah.

[964] You know what I mean?

[965] I can give you the answer of a riddle and you're like, ha ha ha ha.

[966] Did you understand?

[967] No. You know what I mean?

[968] So you can have the answer of something and you're like, oh, okay, cool.

[969] Yeah.

[970] Did you get it though?

[971] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[972] Yeah, that's the answer.

[973] No, no, did you get it?

[974] Yeah, yeah.

[975] So that's the get in it and the absorb in it and a digesting part of it that I'm trying to come to terms with.

[976] I guess it breaks down into three stages, which is to know, to understand, and then to do, like, the behaviour change.

[977] So to know something is one thing.

[978] We can all know things.

[979] We all know we should go to the gym.

[980] And you don't.

[981] I'm not saying you, obviously.

[982] People don't.

[983] They know it's better and they still don't.

[984] Yeah.

[985] And then understand why that matters and why you should go.

[986] Not everyone understands that.

[987] And then to do it, most people don't do it.

[988] So there's three stages to implementing something we know.

[989] And you're in the stage of understanding and implementing.

[990] It's tough though, man. It's tough late in life to, even with me, with emotions and affection, like I always called my parents by the first name.

[991] Never called the mum in that.

[992] Really?

[993] Yeah, yeah.

[994] Never hugged, never, nothing.

[995] So going into a relationship as like a 31 -year -old man, it's all very, like you were describing, awkward.

[996] like sometimes I feel like I'm faking it when I say things like emotional things I know I've got to say it but I don't I can't connect with it I'm classed as like an avoidant emotionally I avoid we all do however this is why I call the Cape Cape can be anything yeah for me it's business so sometimes yeah exactly when I know not anymore when I knew a conversation was going in a certain you know was going somewhere I didn't want to be And I'm like, hey, I have to make a phone call.

[997] Like an emotional conversation.

[998] Whatever, things that I didn't feel comfortable, I'm out.

[999] As a dad now, is much of your motivation to do the work based on who you want those three children to be?

[1000] And the dad they want to connect with.

[1001] It's tough because, like I said to you, there's, it's not about not getting a good example.

[1002] It's not the word.

[1003] but I didn't have I didn't have any example understand there is a difference we're not talking about good example I'm talking about I didn't have a real example of a couple at home so for me that's already difficult to deal with that as a dad because oh my dad used to or my dad you know it didn't it didn't happen because he wasn't around for that then I myself wasn't a lot at home as a player as a dad and that carries on because of work well thanks to work but because of work but thanks to work if not or so because if not there's no home there's no nothing there's no but having saying that trying to find the right balance on something that I already struggle with myself of being at home but also how to behave when you are at home as a dad.

[1004] And that's the fight of a lot of men.

[1005] That's why they pursue work.

[1006] Because it's in our head a more of a comfortable place is your comfort zone.

[1007] While you think it's a comfort zone because nothing can be more comfortable, sorry, than being with your kids.

[1008] But again, you pretend to live a certain life because you're afraid to find yourself in a situation where you don't know what to do.

[1009] And it's kind of awkward or weird.

[1010] So you're like, oh, people are going to see me naked.

[1011] I see my weakness.

[1012] I've worked to do.

[1013] I'm going to the office.

[1014] So you live or, oh, I'm going somewhere.

[1015] Oh, I'm going.

[1016] Or you find a way to go somewhere all the time.

[1017] You know what I'm saying.

[1018] and I'm not trying to, you know, let me rephrase that.

[1019] You don't find a way to, but when things comes, you don't say no. That's a better way to explain it.

[1020] When it works, you don't say no. Instead of going, no, this is time with my family.

[1021] Because we are privileged in a way to say no. I'm talking about being privileged.

[1022] Because sometimes you cannot say no. But if we are privileged, what are you?

[1023] you actually chasing?

[1024] Yes, money.

[1025] Let's all be honest.

[1026] Money, okay.

[1027] But what are you?

[1028] Is it more important than spending time with people that you love?

[1029] But because you don't know how to behave, it's kind of a weird way.

[1030] And then you said the same thing.

[1031] Your way is work.

[1032] Okay, yeah, yeah, I've been at home for a week now.

[1033] That's not really me. You know?

[1034] So those are the stuff that are difficult to deal with in my brain.

[1035] It's kind of weird.

[1036] I know people say, really, that's really hard.

[1037] Yeah, for me, it is really hard because I've never been a homebody.

[1038] I've never been at home.

[1039] Since I'm 13, I've been on the road.

[1040] You know, live almost alone, you know, on flights or somewhere, you know, whatever it is.

[1041] You know, so that I know well.

[1042] I'm not saying it's good or that I know well.

[1043] So I'm like, if you say, Terry, tomorrow, you need to do this alone or whatever.

[1044] You need to go back with travel.

[1045] You're like, yeah, that's fine.

[1046] That's tiring.

[1047] No, it's okay.

[1048] But it's also comfort, right?

[1049] It's familiar.

[1050] It is.

[1051] It's interesting because this is why when you're young, as a kid, you always want to watch the same cartoon that you know even is the same episode.

[1052] Because knowing what's coming next makes her feel comfortable.

[1053] The familiar whether it's healthy or not, the therapists I've spoken to on the show always talk about how we unfortunately try and recreate the unfamiliar as adults, even if it was unhealthy.

[1054] And they say that in relationships, people will go for a partner, even if their father or mother was abusive, they'll go for that because it was the way they learnt love.

[1055] And I think about it the same with our careers as well.

[1056] You know, it really is a difficult adjustment to make later in life to go from being almost like institutional And I use that word to describe the life of a top athlete that's always, you know, preparing for a game, always flying around the world, always got a cliff focus, to suddenly having none of it.

[1057] And to have to, as you described, almost like rebirth yourself.

[1058] There's a death and there's like a rebirth.

[1059] And this is exactly what I, why I said you die.

[1060] You do.

[1061] It's a shock.

[1062] It's a shock to the system.

[1063] when you, whatever you do in your life, by the way, I loved it.

[1064] So I loved football.

[1065] I still love, but love football as a competitor, like the athlete.

[1066] Regardless of what people say, you still can play football.

[1067] Yeah, yeah, I know.

[1068] Not like that.

[1069] That is over.

[1070] I don't care what people say, no, you know you can work on.

[1071] Now that's over.

[1072] Never going to play again.

[1073] Never going to play in the prime.

[1074] Never going to play.

[1075] Never.

[1076] never that's that's over that's dead so what's the what's the new tiari what's the what was born out of those ashes what's the next chapter for me my biggest challenge now is to be a good dad i don't really care about the rest i do understand what i'm saying so to speak but in comparison to that is to be a better dad because i'm not there yet not at all actually uh I have a long way to go.

[1077] But I'm working on it.

[1078] You know, I'm not perfect.

[1079] But I'm aware of what I'm missing.

[1080] That's always a good start.

[1081] So for me, that's what I would say.

[1082] You know, a better dad and a better partner.

[1083] You know, because for so long you think that what you're doing is to please others, bring money back, to have a good life and everything.

[1084] But along the way, you're missing.

[1085] the right moment and a true essence of life.

[1086] This is why I said sometimes it's tough to be a man in a certain way is we've been told that we need to go out there and be men.

[1087] I don't even know what it's supposed to mean.

[1088] Do you understand what I mean?

[1089] That's why before I go back to, oh, be a man. What is that?

[1090] Because not showing emotion is not being a man. but I've been told not to show emotion.

[1091] That's being a man. That's wrong.

[1092] So I need to readjust to that.

[1093] You know, go out there, be that, be strong, be the level of expectation of always delivering whatever you need to deliver.

[1094] You know, be a good dad, be a good partner.

[1095] It's like for everybody, and by the way, you know, I'm not talking about gender and everything, but I'm a man. So, but be a man. what is that supposed to mean?

[1096] If you could go back and have a conversation with that five -year -old Tieri and you could say a couple of words to him that maybe would have helped him later in life.

[1097] That's a tough one because...

[1098] I always say...

[1099] I always say, when people ask me that, I'll say, enjoy the ride.

[1100] Enjoy the ride.

[1101] And I see some enjoy it because I forgot to enjoy the ride.

[1102] ride.

[1103] Do you regret that?

[1104] No, I don't regret it because maybe if I did enjoy the ride, I would have been different.

[1105] It's so weird for me to say that, but this is what I will say to him now, knowing that he might have an impact on his life and maybe not being that good of a player or maybe better.

[1106] I don't actually know, but I don't regret stuff because that's what made you in a way.

[1107] You know, you learn from people are scared of failing.

[1108] I wasn't scared of failure.

[1109] You know, I was more scared to please people, but failure, you're going to fail, you know?

[1110] And that's what makes you.

[1111] That's what shapes you.

[1112] So when people say, I don't regret it because it makes you be better or a better man or a better person or whatever it is.

[1113] So I don't have regrets.

[1114] But I think along the way, way we enjoy, we, we forget to enjoy living, to enjoy it.

[1115] We just, we just do it.

[1116] It's like breathing.

[1117] You don't think about breathing, right?

[1118] Are you living now?

[1119] Yeah, I'm, I'm enjoying it.

[1120] I'm trying to enjoy it.

[1121] I'm trying to accept, you know, when people say something to me, like I never used to take a compliment well, as you can imagine, because what used to trigger me the most was what I didn't do well.

[1122] So when someone was like, oh, Terry, you were good?

[1123] Well, that's what I'm supposed to do.

[1124] Tieri, we have a closing tradition on this podcast, which is kind of interesting because the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.

[1125] And it's funny that this is the question that's been left for you.

[1126] What do you most regret from your childhood and how are you working to resolve that regret?

[1127] What do you regret?

[1128] I don't regret anything.

[1129] But what I would say to solve it in a way.

[1130] I don't regret it.

[1131] It's true.

[1132] It's not a cliche thing.

[1133] I do think that when you, you, you, you, this is, your mistakes will make you better, hopefully.

[1134] But what I will say to my young self is actually, uh, enjoy it.

[1135] Don't forget to enjoy it and be happy.

[1136] The question before I'm going to ask you instead, because I already asked you though, what things are you doing that are contributing to keeping you stuck or stop?

[1137] stopping you from progressing in the way that you would like?

[1138] Pleasing people.

[1139] Still?

[1140] Yeah, because it's something I cannot get rid of.

[1141] But I need to balance it out with my own happiness.

[1142] So I can't help myself pleasing people.

[1143] That's something that I have in me. And I think, you know what, I think personally it's a good trade, but you can't go too far with it because you forget your own happiness.

[1144] What do you want people to, you know, we know the Tieri on the, on the pitch, the legend.

[1145] But what do you want to be remembered as, especially considering you've got so many chapters of life left to live?

[1146] Like I said to you, I just want to be remembered.

[1147] Because if you are remembered, it's because you've done something.

[1148] You're going to be remembered.

[1149] But that's good enough for me. It depends on people.

[1150] But for me, what matters right now is how you transcend people, what you transmit and how you can help people, for example, to be able to open up, like, the way I am matters for me more than, because when you did succeed and people see you as someone that they like to follow, tell them you struggled, tell them the real you, for them to understand fully what's happening.

[1151] And that matters more than any title that I want.

[1152] That matters more than anything else.

[1153] Be honest.

[1154] Stop lying.

[1155] And I did lie for a very long time.

[1156] because you have to, because society wasn't ready to hear what you have to say, especially in my world.

[1157] But that, if you can have an impact on someone's life, and you ever there, I was in Miami, I would be honest with you, I don't, I don't really, I don't get bothered.

[1158] I'm not too bothered when people say, oh my God, Cherry, like, I love it.

[1159] I love to hear it, but I'm not like, after, like, did you see what he said, You know, I don't take it too far.

[1160] But there was a guy there I'm in Miami, a cop.

[1161] It came.

[1162] And he says to me, Terry, can you sign on my arm?

[1163] I mean, what are you going to do?

[1164] It's just like, I mean, I said, no, I'm going to tattoo your, your autograph.

[1165] And I was like, and I looked at him.

[1166] I said, come on, man, you have more important stuff to do.

[1167] And he goes, like, no, you changed my life.

[1168] So I looked at him and I went, sorry?

[1169] then yes man you don't understand through the struggle I was looking up to you and you changed my life I didn't know what to say I didn't know what to say I really like I stopped and I look at people and I went then I realized what matters then I realized without knowing from the the mission of a man from the mission of my dad actually throughout all the struggles, all the problems that I'm still dealing with, as for that, that is exactly for that, because you, that man said to me, like, I changed his light, saved him from playing football.

[1170] It's, like I said to you, is what you transmit and how you transcend people.

[1171] I don't know why he saw because I, you know, I had to go and I actually took his, his address and his name I still have it at home I need to write something for him and send him something soon but that is something yes up until now and that's something yes I will tell my kids not that I won World Cups and stuff like that I will tell my kid Tieri thank you so much for having this conversation with me for many many reasons I met you in Paris and I sat there in awe because I knew the player but I didn't know the man and I sat there on the edge of my chair because I got a glimpse of the man and for me the stuff you did on the field you're a legend there's almost nobody that I can, there's no comparisons there on the field but the thing that blew me away was your willingness to speak so vulnerably and powerfully as a human and as a man and that's why I then messaged you straight after and said please I'm I would love to have a conversation with you because it left such a profound impact on me to think, oh my God, Tieri -on -R -R -R -E feels those things.

[1172] Tieri -on -Ree has those struggles.

[1173] It makes it okay for me to have those struggles.

[1174] And it will make it okay for the millions of people that will listen to this conversation to have those struggles as well.

[1175] And in normalizing it, and us all realizing that those struggles aren't evidence of my inadequacy or evidence that I'm broken, it's actually evidence that I'm a human being too like T -E -E -R -A.

[1176] exactly helps me to move past those struggles and that's the one of the most powerful things and I think one of the most inspiring things that you can do and it's another example of tiram re -transending in another chapter of his life in another way so thank you so much thank you and I say that thanks I extend it on behalf of everybody listening as well who would love to be able to say it to you thank you so much thank you thank you Stephen do you need a podcast to listen to next we've discovered that people who liked this episode also tend to absolutely love another recent episode we've done so I've linked to that episode in the description below.

[1177] I know you'll enjoy it.