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[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.
[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.
[2] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
[3] He's an armchair.
[4] Miller.
[5] Hi.
[6] Hi.
[7] Hi, friend.
[8] I have a tremendous amount of fear about doing this.
[9] I understand.
[10] One of them is people will.
[11] Maybe bombard me with things I did wrong or judgments of what I should or shouldn't have done.
[12] And maybe some people will feel a sense of betrayal because we preach honesty and I was being dishonest.
[13] I have a fear financially that like companies who would want me to represent them would now not.
[14] I think the people who already hate me will have a lot of.
[15] ammo which of course who cares who cares about those people who cares and then um you know most importantly but not i don't have it now but i had it a week ago which is the cornerstone of my self -esteem other than the children is that we have this podcast and that a lot of people have been inspired to try sobriety based on how open we are about it and i had a huge fear that those people would feel maybe misled or I don't know part of its good and its self -esteem and another part of its ego that I have 16 years I have 16 years I have 16 years and that is something people might aspire to have and then through talking to a really good close friend who said you know if if you're being honest and that what you really want to do is help people then it would be much more helpful for you to be honest and tell the truth yeah tell the truth I agree.
[16] So it would be unfair to say this all started with my recent surgeries, which is really hard to say.
[17] Yeah.
[18] Good job.
[19] First of all, I'm so proud of you.
[20] Thank you, buddy.
[21] So eight years into sobriety, I had not done a single shady thing.
[22] There was nothing gray.
[23] I hadn't done anything gray.
[24] And then my heart's a little racy.
[25] In 2012, my father was dying.
[26] He got diagnosed with cancer in August, and then he died December 31st.
[27] I was going back nonstop to do all the treatments with him and take him to chemo and handle his hospital stuff, blah, blah, blah.
[28] I also got in a motorcycle accident going to work on parenthood.
[29] And I immediately called my sponsor and I said, I'm in a ton of pain and I got to work all day.
[30] and we have friends that have Vicodin.
[31] Pain killers, yeah.
[32] And he said, okay, you can take a couple of Vicodin to get through the day of work, but you have to go to the doctor and you have to get a prescription.
[33] And then you have to have Kristen dole out the prescription.
[34] And I said, okay, so I did all that.
[35] Yeah.
[36] So I had a prescription for Vicodin that Kristen was administering.
[37] No problem yet.
[38] I then fly back to see my dad.
[39] And I don't take the prescription because Kristen's supposed to hand.
[40] hand them out.
[41] So it's decided like I'm fine enough to just go without them.
[42] So when I go back, my father at this point is he can't walk.
[43] He just is in this hospital room all day long.
[44] And he says that he really wants to go sit in his house and look at the lake one more time.
[45] So my beautiful friend Ken Kennedy builds a fucking handicap ramp in front of his house.
[46] And I get him in a wheelchair.
[47] My father is not a small man at this point either.
[48] Even with cancer.
[49] probably weighed 280.
[50] So I get him in this wheelchair.
[51] I take him to Ryan's, his favorite restaurant.
[52] I get him a gold brick Sunday, his favorite thing in the world, and he doesn't take any bites of it.
[53] And that was the point where I was like, okay, that's probably the last stage for him.
[54] Yeah.
[55] So we didn't eat any of this.
[56] I got him ribs in this, this gold brick Sunday, and he didn't take any bites.
[57] And then I took him to the house.
[58] And they had given me his purcassette because he needs to take him every whatever hours.
[59] So I give him a bunch of percocet.
[60] And then I go, I have a prescription for this.
[61] And I was in a motorcycle accident and I'm going to take some two.
[62] Yeah.
[63] And so I took percocet and my dad and I sat in his living room and stared at the lake.
[64] And it was, you know, we had so little uncommon and so much friction.
[65] But the number one thing we had in common is we were both fucking addicts.
[66] Yeah.
[67] And we had never used anything together.
[68] and we sat there stoned and looked at the lake.
[69] And in that moment, I felt elation and I was just happy.
[70] And then I dropped him off at the hospital.
[71] I went back to Kenny's house and spent the night.
[72] And I started panicking a bit that I had done that.
[73] And I was wondering if that's a relapse and, oh, no, eight years is gone.
[74] And then...
[75] Did you take more?
[76] Also, I don't have to ask questions.
[77] No, please do.
[78] Because I think people will be wondering, whatever you're wondering.
[79] Well, since you were already taking them, did you take more than you would have been taking?
[80] Yeah, I probably took twice of what my other prescription was.
[81] Yeah.
[82] Let me be even more specific.
[83] Initially, I think I took exactly what my prescription was, but then the second I felt them, I took a second dose of them.
[84] So I wake up the next day and I'm pretty nervous and I'm a little panicked about the whole thing.
[85] And then I go to the hospital to see him.
[86] And what I was already not crazy loving was just that my dad had so many friends in AA, which is awesome.
[87] And they would visit him all day long.
[88] And there would often be like 10 to 20 people inside of his room.
[89] And I wasn't really alone with him as much as I wanted to be.
[90] So I pulled up to the hospital and I'm seeing all these people walk in and I'm just feeling a lot of things like overwhelmed by what I did.
[91] Overwhelmed.
[92] I think that my dad's dying.
[93] I don't think till much later did I realize it was stressful.
[94] I think in the moment I thought like, oh, you do this.
[95] You did it.
[96] Get the handicapped rent.
[97] You know.
[98] You were distracted by the logistics.
[99] Exactly.
[100] And it was something that I could control.
[101] And so that was my thing.
[102] So all that to say, Kristen called me and I was sitting in the parking lot in the car and she said, said, how are you doing?
[103] And I said, I'm not doing great.
[104] I, um, you know, I'm really upset that all these people are visiting and I want a loan time with him.
[105] And, and of course, there's more that's going on than that.
[106] And, uh, and she says, um, don't worry.
[107] It's okay.
[108] Look to your left.
[109] And I look to my left and she's standing in the parking lot.
[110] She is flown on the red eye that night without telling me. And she's in the parking lot of the hospital.
[111] And then we go inside and, um, and, um, and, um, and, My dad feels the baby.
[112] Lincoln's like, you know, eight months in the belly at this point.
[113] And so he feels the thing.
[114] And it's this really sweet day.
[115] And then on the ride from the hospital home, I start crying.
[116] And I say, I relapsed.
[117] I took blah, blah, blah.
[118] And she's like, you clearly need to call someone in AA.
[119] But I would say, you're fucked up from this accident.
[120] You got high with your dad.
[121] Keep it moving.
[122] Yeah.
[123] Like you don't need to redefine it.
[124] you know, you didn't lose eight years, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[125] Yeah.
[126] Which was so comforting.
[127] And, of course, just telling her was really comforting.
[128] And then I did tell a couple select people in a A, but in all honesty, a couple people that I thought would co -sign.
[129] Yes.
[130] So that was eight years ago.
[131] And over the last eight years, I don't think there was another thing for maybe a couple years until I got hurt again.
[132] And then I've now had this experience where I did that.
[133] I felt bad, but there wasn't really any fallout from it.
[134] It was like, I felt bad.
[135] I said I felt bad.
[136] And then I did just move on and it was fine.
[137] Yeah, and you also didn't feel like, I need more, I need more.
[138] Exactly.
[139] And again, another thing I'll add is I know really well what powerlessness and unmanageability feels like, which is when I drink, if I drink on a Thursday night, there's no telling if I'll come back that night.
[140] And then you had Coke.
[141] And then really you're talking like.
[142] I can't predict if I'll be gone for a day or four days or whatever.
[143] So that to me is like unmanageability and powerlessness, which I am entirely powerless over drinking and Coke.
[144] So this is a confusing experience because I didn't feel very powerless or anything.
[145] So then I get hurt again.
[146] I can't remember even what happens.
[147] But then that next time, again, never administering them myself.
[148] But maybe I don't want to take them at night because I can't sleep when I take them.
[149] So when I get my two at night, I don't actually.
[150] eat them and I keep them for tomorrow morning so that I can make it the dose I want it to be.
[151] And again, that cycle happens maybe three or four more times.
[152] And I feel shady, but I don't feel like this is a problem.
[153] I didn't desire more when the thing was over, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[154] So this escalates to, I have a ton of injuries.
[155] I've had seven surgeries from shit.
[156] I go ride a lot.
[157] Yeah.
[158] And after I ride sometimes on the track, I feel I'm entitled to take to Vicodin at the end of the day because I am in pain.
[159] That again doesn't feel that crazy.
[160] And then this last go round of the hand, then the shoulder starting like, I don't know, six months ago or whatever it was.
[161] I'm getting shadier and shadier.
[162] And I've not ever yet.
[163] yet bought them.
[164] Mm -hmm.
[165] And then I do.
[166] Yeah.
[167] And so, yeah.
[168] And for the last eight weeks, maybe, I don't really know.
[169] You would know better than I would.
[170] I'm on them all day.
[171] And I'm allowed to be on them at some dosage because I have a prescription.
[172] And then I'm also augmenting that.
[173] And then all the prescriptions run out.
[174] And I'm now just taking 30 mil oxies that I've bought at whenever I decide I can do.
[175] And again, in my addicty brain, I'm like, I don't take them after four so I can sleep.
[176] I'm taking stool softener, so I'm not constipated.
[177] I'm doing all the dishes and I'm being a dad and I'm interviewing people.
[178] And the interviews seem to be going pretty well.
[179] And it's feeling very manageable.
[180] And I'm thinking, this is very manageable.
[181] and then primarily you start saying what are you on or why are you different or what's happening and I start lying to you pretty regularly and I hate it and I'm lying to other people and I know I have to quit but my tolerance is going up so quickly that I'm now in a situation where I'm taking, you know, eight 30s a day.
[182] And I know that's an amount that's going to result in a pretty bad withdrawal.
[183] And I start getting really scared and I'm starting to feel really lonely and I just have this enormous secret.
[184] And I create a schedule.
[185] You try to handle it yourself.
[186] I try to handle it myself and I come up with a schedule that I'm going to take, you know, eight, then the next day I'm going to take seven, then I'm going to take six and blah, blah, blah.
[187] And then I'm be down to a half.
[188] Well, day one, when I'm supposed to step down, I'm like, oh, I wasn't anticipating that this was already going to feel bad after just one less.
[189] So I don't step down the first day.
[190] And then I don't step down the second day.
[191] And now I'm really panicking because I don't have many left and I know it's getting worse.
[192] And I now start getting pretty visibly detoxy and withdrawly.
[193] And I lie and say I'm having an arthritis flare up and then 10 maybe 11 12 days ago yeah something like that you and I are driving in the car and I'm now on my like fourth lie to you of the day and I just can't I can't do it I can't I just I'm gaslighting you and I know I am and I'm making you feel crazy and I'm making Kristen feel crazy and And so I say to you in the car, well, I start crying a little bit.
[194] And I say I have something to tell you, but I want to tell you and Kristen at the same time.
[195] So we go in the gym and then I tell you guys everything.
[196] And I give you the remaining stuff I have.
[197] And I say, please help me because I'm not doing this well.
[198] And now I don't really know what to do.
[199] I'm like, I've told you guys, I apologize for all the gas lighting I've been doing.
[200] And now I have this whole AA situation and more importantly, my ego in my 16 years, 16 years, 16 years.
[201] Compounded by the fact that like it's in the news that I have 16 years.
[202] I know.
[203] I know the public element makes this so much harder than it.
[204] It is for another person, which is why I'm extra proud.
[205] By the way, I said, I don't think you need to start over.
[206] I think it's fine.
[207] I think we get through this.
[208] And let's also say why, because I think it's relevant.
[209] My fear was that if I have one day, I'm going to drink.
[210] Yeah.
[211] And I'm going to do Coke because I haven't drank a beer in 16 years.
[212] and I haven't snorted a line in 16 years.
[213] And if I have one day, then I might as well fucking have what I really want and then start over.
[214] And my fear of that is I know if I do that, it may take me three years to get that back in the cage.
[215] And I may die.
[216] I just know what I'm like on those two things.
[217] And so I'm, and again, it's very hard for me to know what part of this is like my addiction and what great stories I tell myself of reasons why I can't just be fucking humble and say I failed.
[218] I think I have a very legitimate fear that I would drink.
[219] And also I think my addiction is smart enough to say you can't do that oil you'll drink.
[220] So what I end up doing is going to a meeting after I tell you and Kristen and I kind of, I talk about the thoughts I had, which is, wow, that stuff's confusing because you're kind of functional and it doesn't feel powerless and it doesn't feel unmanageable.
[221] And so, like, I kind of just crack that door, but the guys there aren't necessarily thinking anything.
[222] And then the next night, I go to a much smaller meeting with some really good friends of mine.
[223] And I cop to a lot of it.
[224] Yeah.
[225] I basically copped to getting a couple prescriptions that Kristen didn't know about, which, again, is not the full story.
[226] Right.
[227] And then I, Saturday, I call my best friend, someone who I look up to, so much who's much older than me and has everything I want as a person and two beautiful daughters.
[228] And he's just the most amazing man in the world.
[229] And I talk to him and I tell him everything.
[230] Yeah.
[231] And he says, you know, your number one character defect is your arrogance.
[232] You think you're so much smarter than everybody.
[233] And he said, and I know it because I suffer from the same one, which is true i never thought i'm not an addict but i thought i'm a smart enough addict to do this and be smarter than it and come up with a bulletproof game plan and he said you know it's your number one character defect and that unfortunately i know the antidote to it which is humility and there would be nothing more humbling for you than to tell everyone in our meeting and then ultimately tell everyone, period.
[234] And that was terrifying.
[235] That was so terrifying, and yet I could not deny that was the real antidote.
[236] Yeah.
[237] So then I am living in pretty big fear from Saturday till Tuesday.
[238] Also, I'm stepping down and I'm really very physically ill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[239] I'm like sweating bullets.
[240] I'm jerky.
[241] My back kills.
[242] It's just it's it's terrible.
[243] I've never detox from opiates and I I have so much compassion for these junkies who have like fucking cycled through this 20, 30 times.
[244] It's it's yeah.
[245] Oh, I don't know.
[246] Also, you just had your sobriety birthday.
[247] Yes.
[248] And oh yes.
[249] So let me add that.
[250] Thank you.
[251] Yeah.
[252] So my older friend who I worship.
[253] One of his first questions was, how'd it feel taking that 16 year cake at the meeting where everyone was being so kind to you and saying how much they admire you?
[254] And I said, it was the worst hour of my life.
[255] You were on them.
[256] Oh, yeah.
[257] I was high at the meeting having people tell me that they admire my sobriety.
[258] And I said, it was the worst thing in the world.
[259] But my choices in my mind at that time were don't go to the meeting on my 16th birthday, which would have been the biggest red flag in the world.
[260] And my secret would be out and I'm dead.
[261] And I'm really at that point thinking like, this is my life on the line.
[262] It's like the idea that I would have to quit these things tomorrow morning.
[263] It just, yeah.
[264] Well, the irony, right?
[265] Because your life is on the line in the opposite way.
[266] In the opposite way.
[267] Yeah.
[268] But I have convinced myself at that point, again, stupidly and wrongly that the love I've experienced in that room for the last 17 years has been conditional.
[269] They love me because I'm sober.
[270] And I really convinced myself of that.
[271] Yeah, you have an M .O. of that or you think people love you because you love you because you're a good driver.
[272] I love you because of this and that this just people just love you.
[273] You have to be able to just put a period at the end of that.
[274] It's very hard.
[275] I know.
[276] Don't you think you have that too?
[277] Of course.
[278] I think everyone does.
[279] But when you're on the other side of it, you know that's just so not true.
[280] You're right.
[281] Yeah.
[282] You're right.
[283] And then.
[284] Well, and then that so, so I had great fear of going to the meeting on Tuesday.
[285] And it timed up kind of perfectly where I had been off of opiates.
[286] It's for a full 24 hours, and I had taken Xanax the night before to sleep because I couldn't sleep.
[287] So Tuesday really was day one.
[288] Yeah.
[289] And then so I went to this meeting, and, man, I've known the men in this meeting for 17 and a half years because I had many attempts before I got, you know, going.
[290] And I told my whole story, and I told it honestly.
[291] And I went first, and I was crying.
[292] and it turned into the most incredible, like, 90 minutes I've ever experienced where there was just so much love and there was so much understanding and kindness and unconditional love.
[293] And it's the own, there's probably been many others, but it's the only experience I can remember having that was just grace, the definition of grace.
[294] And it was very emotional, and it was a really, really surreal kind of experience.
[295] And when it was over, I actually mentally, for the first time in a very long time, felt optimistic because for the last while, a long time, I've known intellectually that things are going to get worse, that each encounter with it has gotten.
[296] more shady and more dangerous.
[297] And I recognize that the next go -round would be, oh, I can't get pills, let's snort heroin.
[298] And, you know, and I've had a lot of friends that I've watched go through this whole cycle.
[299] And I finally have the humility to say, I will not be any different.
[300] I won't be special.
[301] I won't be smarter.
[302] I will be exactly like everyone else.
[303] I mean, Philip Seymour Hoffman, who I just adored and I elize, he had 20 some years and I think he he had a very similar kind of experience that ended in death and so I'm not smarter than Philip Seymour Hoffman.
[304] I'm not more special.
[305] I'm not I'm not anything more than him.
[306] But I will say the 16 years of of not drinking and going to AA, there's a saying in AA that like your addiction is doing push -ups.
[307] It's not getting weaker over time.
[308] It's just doing push -ups ready for you to get back at it.
[309] And that part is true.
[310] But I will say that the huge gift that the 16 years did get me was I used to be able to gaslight people daily.
[311] And it didn't bother me. And I've had a good 15 and a half years or maybe more of not gaslighting people.
[312] And I just don't, I don't, I don't have that tolerance for it.
[313] I couldn't, it was the worst part of this whole experience was like, yeah, lying right to your face in knowing that you didn't believe it.
[314] And it is just, it was terrible.
[315] And I hated myself over it.
[316] And so that's a gift of it.
[317] And then shockingly, I didn't have a single desire or fantasy or ideation about drinking or doing cocaine.
[318] And it would have been totally natural if you did.
[319] But I'm so, relieved.
[320] I didn't.
[321] This thing really has relieved me of my obsession to drink alcohol, which is what it promises it'll do.
[322] So I'm just so grateful for that.
[323] Yeah.
[324] I'm so grateful.
[325] One other thing I want to say, many years of sobriety, I journaled every single day.
[326] I was like superstitious about it, that if I missed a day, it would relapse.
[327] And I'm talking like, you know, 14 years of journaling every single day.
[328] And then I stopped.
[329] And I have told myself over the last couple years that I stopped because I was too busy and I had kids and blah, blah, blah, blah.
[330] But I started journaling again and I was writing everything I really did.
[331] And all of a sudden it hit me. I stopped journaling because I didn't feel safe being honest with that journal because I was afraid the journal would get found.
[332] And so I didn't even want to write it anymore because I was no longer even being honest with the journal, which is a bizarre thing.
[333] Yeah.
[334] And so, yeah, today I have seven days.
[335] Yeah.
[336] Good job.
[337] Thank you.
[338] Congratulations.
[339] Also, I mean, I'm not in this program, so I don't know what I'm allowed to say or not, but knowing you, you still have, you have seven days, but those 16 years aren't gone.
[340] They're not erased.
[341] I mean, I know there's like some gray, but yeah, you haven't drank alcohol or had cocaine, which is why you went there in 16 years.
[342] That's a huge accomplishment, and it doesn't take away.
[343] I'm still very proud of it, whether I should or shouldn't be.
[344] I still feel very proud.
[345] that I haven't drank or done cocaine in 16 years.
[346] Yeah.
[347] And also I have not been sober in the way I would like to be sober where you don't have secrets and you're not afraid to tell people about the gray area you're going through.
[348] Yeah.
[349] And that's my failing is I was not trusting enough of the people who love me to let them in on the struggle and the gray area and what I, the baby steps I was taking.
[350] And, yeah, and I'm obviously really regretful of that.
[351] Now, at the same time, I had all these fears of what it would be to have one day again.
[352] And I will say I've had 25 conversations in the last week with guys from my program that I've had more in the last week than I've had in the last two years with guys from my program.
[353] So the level of like connection I've gotten out of it.
[354] And again, the primary thing, once you're sober, trying to help other alcoholics and to be honest.
[355] And I have felt like I've gotten to do that way more than I was doing with, quote, 16 years.
[356] Yeah.
[357] And that feels incredibly good.
[358] I feel so much better than I felt on opiates, even though I thought I felt really good on opiates.
[359] Yeah.
[360] Well, connection.
[361] Mm -hmm.
[362] You'd been missing that.
[363] Yes.
[364] And my lack of humility was a roadblock to other guys being humble with me. Yeah.
[365] You've talked on the show about having a harder time talking about your current struggles.
[366] My real -time struggles.
[367] I'd way rather tell you things I've conquered.
[368] Overcome.
[369] Yes.
[370] I've been hinting at this in my subconscious for a couple years.
[371] Yeah.
[372] And our show is about honesty and vulnerability.
[373] And those things are so much easier said than done, I think.
[374] Yeah.
[375] And but you're really putting your money where your mouth is by doing this.
[376] Well, I'm so embarrassed by the thing.
[377] I'm not as much now going through it as I thought I would be.
[378] But I was very embarrassed by the whole thing.
[379] You know, I had really started.
[380] yeah my my ego was like oh i i've got this under control and um yeah and to admit i don't have control which is the thing i desire the most and to openly say that i have lost complete control yeah is hard yeah hard for me i think everyone hearing this is going to learn something new about you and maybe themselves and feel like everyone Everyone is going through a hard time.
[381] Everyone.
[382] Everyone is.
[383] Yeah, I guess the only thing I would hope people would hear is that, at least in my case, the outcome wasn't anything like I feared it would be.
[384] And the secrets are so much more painful than whatever the fallout from owning my secrets was, yeah, I'm just really, really grateful that you guys, you know, were understanding and didn't feel as betrayed as you should, you know.
[385] No, but that's the other thing.
[386] I mean, I'm not letting you off the hook or anything at all, but it is a disease.
[387] It's a real disease.
[388] When you, and I think we've talked about this before, but when you had surgery, this is maybe a couple years ago, and I don't know why Kristen wasn't there or something, so I was in charge of administering your pills and we were just in the middle of conversation yeah normal like totally like this and and then you just be like it's two like in the middle of the conversation it's 2 p .m. without looking at my walk yeah you just knew your brain was always counting down the minutes until you could have it and that's the part two i need i want to be honest about which is the lie i was telling myself was I'm pulling this off and this isn't powerless and it's not unmanageable because look I'm I'm interviewing people and I'm going to work and I'm doing all this stuff but the truth is while I'm interviewing someone I'm almost having this out of body experience where I'm like oh good this is working this will end in an hour I'm going to go pee I have two pills in my pocket I'm going to try to take one while I'm peeing that way Monica won't know I took a pill oh my god I think a pill fell out in the lazy boy all I'm thinking about is that there's a pill lazy boy and you're going to see it.
[389] But I'm still, so that's what's fucked up is that my real life gets put to my subconscious.
[390] My subconscious is now just operating whatever skill set I have.
[391] Yeah.
[392] But my real thoughts are all day long.
[393] When do I have another pill?
[394] I can't have too many.
[395] I got to stop at four.
[396] Fuck, wow, it's already four.
[397] I can't have, you know, really all I'm thinking about is that.
[398] And I'm not actually present, even though there is the facade of being present.
[399] Yeah.
[400] It's very grody that.
[401] I can do that.
[402] Again, when I saw that, like, you know, we've talked about addiction so much and I hear all the stories.
[403] But when I was administering the pills was the first time I really was like, oh, he has no control over this.
[404] I don't know.
[405] It just really opened my eyes to it in a new way.
[406] Like intellectually, I can understand it.
[407] But I felt like I could understand it emotionally for the first time of.
[408] your lack of control over it and so I know it's like this is a disease I really get that now like this is not a choice so after that experience I was like became very hyper aware of any time there were pills or injuries or just generally I was just really hyper aware of anything that I felt a little off because I just really felt like, no, this isn't.
[409] He's not going to be in control.
[410] Yeah.
[411] Yeah.
[412] But I, oh, and the other big thing that I hope people take, that you were brave enough to ask for help when you really needed it.
[413] Yeah.
[414] I was, I couldn't have not.
[415] A, I felt so terrible about the line.
[416] And then I just, I was, which I haven't felt in a very long time.
[417] I was just very scared and I felt very, very lonely.
[418] Like the level of loneliness and I couldn't even tell the journal and I really was just locked into my thoughts by myself.
[419] Yeah.
[420] And none of them were helpful.
[421] But some people feel all that and then they still don't ask.
[422] And that is when I think things really spiral out of control.
[423] And so you have to ask for help if you need it.
[424] Yeah.
[425] Yeah.
[426] I'm so grateful that you and Kristen are people I would feel safe to ask for help from.
[427] I'm so grateful that I have you guys in my life.
[428] And do you miss it?
[429] Getting high.
[430] Yeah.
[431] I don't.
[432] I feel so much better.
[433] Again, I knew my life was going to get worse and worse and worse.
[434] Like, I knew it.
[435] And I now feel, again, like my life's going to get better.
[436] Yeah.
[437] I'm going to feel less sick from it.
[438] I'm going to be less.
[439] sweaty every night.
[440] So some of the fun stuff, the developments are, I have to switch sides of the bed.
[441] I sleep on a towel.
[442] Yeah.
[443] And then about 3 a .m. I have to wake up because the towel's too wet and I move to the other side of the bed.
[444] Yeah.
[445] And put a different towel down.
[446] And it's very humbling.
[447] Yeah.
[448] You should put one of Delta's pee pee pads under.
[449] I should.
[450] The only thing I miss about it is, if I'm being brutally honest, was that I did love that I would wake up in the morning and I'd actually be excited to wake up because I was going to take a 30 and a half, a 30 and get my coffee.
[451] And then in 25 minutes, I was going to feel great for three hours.
[452] And being able to control my mood, I loved being able to control my mood, being able to predict how I was going to feel in my, you know, endless desire for control, control, control.
[453] That made me feel.
[454] like I could control that, how I felt.
[455] I enjoyed that part.
[456] Yeah, of course.
[457] Yeah.
[458] And then when I would go off them, I would feel like shit.
[459] So it would kind of confirm, oh, right, you just let yourself be yourself.
[460] It's not very pleasant.
[461] And X and Z, but it's all, yeah, it's all this.
[462] I'll tell you, the moment, I had like this crazy moment we were watching alone, this survivalist show on Netflix, which is really great.
[463] And there's all these contestants.
[464] And they're all by themselves and they're trying to stay as long as they can.
[465] They only have like a hatchet and a bow and arrow or whatever they have.
[466] And this one woman tapped out because she said, you know, when I had my first child, it stressed my pelvic floor.
[467] And I've been constipated for nine days and I can feel the weight of it on my pelvic floor.
[468] And I'm pretty nervous.
[469] It's going to damage my pelvic floor to a degree that I won't be able to have a second kid.
[470] So I got to go.
[471] I'm going to tap out.
[472] And I had this moment where I was like, that's addiction.
[473] She really just wants to leave as everyone there would want to leave.
[474] And so her brain is all day long coming up with stories that hopefully she can buy into.
[475] And finally it created one where it's like the future of your fertility is on the line.
[476] So you must tap out.
[477] Now that may or may not be true.
[478] Yeah.
[479] But I so identified with your brain just working all day long, trying to come up with a story to do the thing you want to do that you can buy you.
[480] into justification yes yeah yeah and in my brain's been very busy doing that for a couple months now we're a few months yeah it's survival it's a survival skill i think i think that's why we originally have it so that we don't crumble under our own mental fatigue we all do it we all justify decisions all day long that we know aren't exactly right when we drive by the homeless person on the street.
[481] We make justifications for why they're in those positions and why we're not.
[482] Like, everyone's doing it all day long.
[483] And it's just kind of important to recognize that.
[484] We've all been there.
[485] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.
[486] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.
[487] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms, can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.
[488] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.
[489] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.
[490] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.
[491] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.
[492] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.
[493] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon music.
[494] What's up, guys?
[495] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good, and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?
[496] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation, and I don't mean just friends.
[497] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.
[498] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.
[499] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.
[500] So we took a lot of time to talk about what I went through, but I would also like to very much let you say what you went through and again, apologize to you publicly because it breaks my heart that I would try to convince you that you were wrong about something.
[501] You knew you were right.
[502] Well, I started to pick up on things, and I was like, I really think.
[503] something's going on, but I didn't know what to do.
[504] I didn't want to get you in trouble, so I didn't want to tell Kristen.
[505] I didn't know if I was right, like, was it my place to ask?
[506] And you must think there's some outside chance that I'm not lying.
[507] Exactly.
[508] Well, at that point, you hadn't lied to me. I was just thinking, like, I feel something is happening.
[509] You're nervous for me. Yes.
[510] And I almost texted mutual friend who's also sober.
[511] And I almost asked him, what do I do if I think, but I didn't know what to do?
[512] Because I was like, what do I think someone is on drugs and shouldn't be like that?
[513] He would know immediately it was you.
[514] And I didn't think I could.
[515] Well, you're probably susceptible to the same thing I was telling myself, which is if I have one day, I'm going to go drink.
[516] Yes.
[517] So you probably feel the stakes of that as well.
[518] All of it.
[519] All of it.
[520] Yeah.
[521] And I, after your hand surgery, so this is at the beginning of quarantine.
[522] And you had a hand surgery.
[523] And I was living at the house because I had just had the seizure.
[524] Uh -huh.
[525] It was a great.
[526] Oh, my God.
[527] Great stretch for everyone.
[528] I was looking at the house because of the seizure.
[529] You broke your hand.
[530] We thought Kristen had corona for like four days.
[531] Yes.
[532] She was quarantined in the bedroom.
[533] She was quarantined.
[534] And I was so stressed.
[535] Like, I think max capacity stressed out.
[536] Because I was like, oh, my God, Kristen's going to be quarantined for two weeks.
[537] Dax's hand is broken, so he can't do anything.
[538] So now I'm going to be watching these children for two weeks.
[539] I think I'm probably going to have another seizure in this time.
[540] Like, I was really stressed out.
[541] Yeah, one of those mornings, your back hurt.
[542] Yeah.
[543] Mm -hmm.
[544] And also, I knew that there were pills in the mix, and I was stressed out about that.
[545] Yeah.
[546] But I couldn't really tell anyone about that.
[547] I found them, and I counted them.
[548] Mm -hmm.
[549] Some were missing.
[550] Mm -hmm.
[551] And I was so stressed out and just texted me. and he said, how is it going over there?
[552] And I said, I'm so stressed out.
[553] I don't know what to do.
[554] I'm nervous about the seizure.
[555] Kristen's in quarantine.
[556] There are pills missing.
[557] And what I did not realize is he texted both of us.
[558] We were on a group text.
[559] And he said, how's everything going?
[560] So I responded to the group, me and you and him.
[561] And he called me immediately, and he said, you need to find his phone and you need to delete that.
[562] And this is at night.
[563] This is like midnight or something.
[564] You're sleeping.
[565] And I just said, nope, I'm not going to.
[566] I'm not going to try to delete it.
[567] I'm not going to do anything.
[568] And then I woke up and I said, you're not going to like this, but you're going to see a text on your phone.
[569] And it's with Jess.
[570] and, you know, I don't really know what to do in these situations.
[571] Oh, at that point, I had already asked you a few times about stuff and you had lied.
[572] So I didn't know what to do because I felt like I knew, well, I knew I was right.
[573] In this case, there were pills missing.
[574] So I was validated, but then I was, didn't know how to talk to you about it.
[575] And I didn't, again, didn't want to get you in trouble.
[576] That's on me. and so I told Jess and then I told you accidentally and I and then I said you know Jess I feel like I have to have some sort of outlet so I've picked him yeah and then you just said okay you weren't mad at me or anything no I just felt I felt really bad that you would be in a position that you would have to count the pills because I am that person and I know I'm stressing you out and I'm also high so I don't really I'm also want more than anything to stay high so I want to make you happy I want to stay high and I don't really know what to do yeah I was really relieved that you weren't mad I really thought you were going to get super defensive and I was just embarrassed by the way I knew you were going to do it yeah I was allowed to take two, and I took four or five, and then gave you the bottle to administer to me. Yeah.
[577] So again, these are all these, like, talk about the great, like, I for some reason at that point was still willing to give you the bottle.
[578] Right.
[579] Like I was still in my mind, okay, well, I'm not, she'll be in charge, but I am going to have a few more before I give it to her, hope she doesn't notice, but I know Monica, she's going to notice.
[580] And so when I handed them to you, it was kind of like.
[581] a ticking clock i i really knew what was coming yeah and then it happened and i didn't at that point wasn't fucked up enough to yeah to lie about it i was just like yeah yeah and again i've put on your shoulders the stakes of yeah what are you supposed to do you call my sponsor and then now i have a day and now i'd go out and drink and fuck up you know i'm so sorry i that i would be putting you in that position truly it it's so obvious how many people it always affects.
[582] Yeah.
[583] Again, the lie I'm telling myself, the story I'm coming up with is like, I'm not hurting anyone.
[584] How is anyone hurt by this?
[585] Yeah.
[586] I can't feel too Vicodin.
[587] Right.
[588] It doesn't feel like anything.
[589] But I can feel five.
[590] Again, I'm like, well, I have a much higher tolerance than people.
[591] I mean, again, these are all the stories I'm telling myself.
[592] I have a much higher tolerance for drugs.
[593] They prescribe them for a 70 pound woman.
[594] and a 200 -pound man. There's a set prescription, and it doesn't work for me. I can't feel it.
[595] But you're not supposed to feel, you're supposed to feel the absence of pain, not a buzz.
[596] But I don't want the absence of pain.
[597] I want a buzz.
[598] And it's, yeah, it just really, you know, it just all unravels very quickly.
[599] And then I have one set of ethics on one day and the next day.
[600] I have a different set of ethics.
[601] It's a progressive thing.
[602] And it gets worse and worse and worse.
[603] Yeah.
[604] And our good friend, Eric, who's now sober much longer than me, he was like, I'm surprised you didn't like desire to go do Coke or get riddlin or Adderall or something.
[605] And I said, the only time I fantasize about getting riddlin was a couple times I took enough that it was very noticeable to you.
[606] So my whole thing was like, truly, and by the way, thank you.
[607] You probably kept me. from getting much worse is that I knew there was some sweet spot that I had to maintain or you would ask what's going on with you.
[608] And so it crossed my mind to have Adderall available just in case I did enough that you would notice.
[609] And this is how it's like it just starts building.
[610] Now, I never did get Adderall, but it started crossing my mind that it should be in my toolkit to pull this off.
[611] I'm just so grateful you're okay that's really it that's really the lasting feeling I'm I'm so sorry that I lied to you and so many people and I um it's just really regretful and shameful and it really bums me out that I'm that person sometimes and I'm sorry.
[612] Well, I don't want you to be regretfully that you're you.
[613] You're you.
[614] You have all the good parts that everyone loves and you have some hard parts, just like everyone does, just like everyone does.
[615] Yeah.
[616] Again, and I guess the other reservation I had about coming clean publicly is like, oh, Kristen doesn't deserve for the next six months for every fucking interview she does to be, oh, Dax relapse.
[617] I know.
[618] It's not.
[619] It doesn't feel fair to anyone.
[620] It's not fair to anyone.
[621] I'm just, yeah, I'm sorry and embarrassed that I've put other people in the situation.
[622] But it's very admirable that you decided to put yourself before fame before public.
[623] destruction or whatever you fear, even though that's not going to happen at all.
[624] But that is really hard to do to say, I'm more important than that.
[625] Well, even just yesterday, he goes, aren't you nervous people are going to like go back and try to figure out when you were high and stuff?
[626] And I'm like, yeah, that's going to happen.
[627] And that's a fucking bummer.
[628] And that's part of the consequences of this.
[629] Yeah.
[630] And I'll just have to deal with that because I'd rather deal with that than have a big fucking secret exactly yeah i can't imagine going to a live show and having some you know three week sober person tell me oh my god i can't i want to have 16 years like you i that would just kill me to do that so if you got more than seven days you got more than me so you're my elder and i look up to you and uh you know onward and upward for all the people who have been along on this whole journey for the last few years i feel and this is not to sound cheesy but i feel the same responsibility to the people who love the show and are with us because i think it's such an emotional connection we all have i would feel just as guilty to all the arm cherries as i would you and christian and other people i love so that's that i think that all right thanks for your honesty i love you so much thanks for dealing with me always always okay bye follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[631] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.
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