Van Jones

[0] Welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Dax, Randall Shepard, and I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

[2] Hello.

[3] Hello.

[4] Today we have Van Jones, who is incredible.

[5] You know Van Jones from CNN, or at least that's where I came to know, Van Jones.

[6] Always such an interesting perspective.

[7] He has also a three -time New York Times bestselling author, the founder of multiple social enterprises, and a world -class changemaker.

[8] His books include Beyond the Messy Truth, Rebuild the Dream, The Green Collar Economy, as well as the Van Jones show and The Redemption Project, he has a new documentary called The First Step, which premiered at the 2021 Tribeca Film Festival, and it's right up my alley because Van Jones' main mission is to bridge the gap between the left and the right, the Democrats, and the Republicans to actually work on some of the major issues that face all of us left or right.

[9] And so I applaud him for that.

[10] And the document Documentary is called The First Step.

[11] Also, he has a new podcast called Uncommon Ground with Van Jones, which has the same agenda.

[12] Yeah, he's a very cool person.

[13] I've been wanting to have him on for so long.

[14] He is incredibly insightful.

[15] He is.

[16] And we think you'll think so, too.

[17] So please enjoy Van Jones.

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[21] How long have you been in L .A.?

[22] Ten years.

[23] I'm having some cognitive dissonance.

[24] I associate you so much with like D .C., New York.

[25] You're from Tennessee.

[26] Went to school out east.

[27] And you've been in the backyard for 10 years.

[28] Yeah, well, all my shows were on the East Coast, and so I've always either had an apartment in D .C. or New York.

[29] But my kids live here.

[30] My ex -wife lives here.

[31] And so at least you realize, that we're in New York and D .C. Some people still think CNN is all in Atlanta.

[32] Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[33] So you meet people like, oh, you live in Atlanta?

[34] Like, no, I've been to Atlanta twice in my life.

[35] Like, what do you talk to me about?

[36] I'm from there, and I do like to claim CNN.

[37] Yeah, the lawyers are there and the building's there, but all the talent is in New York and D .C. That's generally how it goes.

[38] Although.

[39] Although Sanjay lives there.

[40] No, good.

[41] I think, right?

[42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, he does, he does.

[43] I can see by your response, you're like, yeah, I'm not keeping tabs on them.

[44] all the other anchors.

[45] Did I get the subtext of that?

[46] He may have a house in Atlanta, but he's basically living in New York.

[47] He's everywhere.

[48] Well, I mean, it is what it is.

[49] I mean, the crazy thing about the world we're in now is we wasted in cable TV so much time in the past 15 years in these kind of like graphics wars.

[50] You know, we want like the best studio with the graphics and the lights and the zooms and that.

[51] And then once COVID hit, we didn't have any of that stuff.

[52] We were just all at our houses on Skype.

[53] and the audience liked it just fine.

[54] Ah, that was what was revealed?

[55] Yeah, I mean, they like, oh, they like it.

[56] You see somebody's cat walk by, somebody's kid walks by.

[57] You see the books on the bookshelf.

[58] So the audience actually liked it better when we're just at home talking crap on your couch.

[59] On your couch.

[60] Oh, my gosh.

[61] And then all this money that was spent on these massive studios and all this sort of stuff.

[62] But do you think that has a shelf life?

[63] Because I can give you an example.

[64] Like, I used to be religious about watching John Oliver.

[65] show.

[66] I don't know what happened when the audience went away, but for me, I was like, I need that.

[67] He needs it.

[68] Everyone needs it.

[69] In comedy, he's talking to a camera, and I'm like, get your fucking audience.

[70] So I've stopped watching because I don't want to watch one dude on his own do comedy.

[71] Yeah.

[72] It could come back around.

[73] I just don't know what's going to happen.

[74] First of all, people are now saying that cable TV itself is going to go away.

[75] It's all going to be online and streaming and stuff like that.

[76] So I don't know.

[77] But also, being a cable news, personality is also kind of like being a D -list celebrity.

[78] It's like, people know you kind of, but it's like, hey, I know you.

[79] You said something smart, right?

[80] You're Van's Johnston.

[81] I watch your show every night, man, every night.

[82] I don't miss it.

[83] In fact, I DVR your show, Dance Johnston.

[84] I'm like, it's Van Jones and I don't have a show.

[85] But thank you so much.

[86] I don't know.

[87] That's interesting you would say that.

[88] I guess maybe that might speak to all of our individual insecurities we all carry because I actually hold you guys.

[89] Like that same trip I met you.

[90] So you and I met in real life like a month ago.

[91] Right.

[92] And just prior to that, we had been in Idaho.

[93] And Jake Tapper happened to be at a place I was at.

[94] In lovely fucking guy.

[95] I don't know.

[96] Yeah, yeah.

[97] Yeah, yeah.

[98] Yeah, I guess I assigned to him some kind of other layer.

[99] of like status because he's talking with world leaders and you got to be smart you got to be on your game you know yeah he's the best ever do it and i feel that way about you so i think when us actors are around y 'all we're kind of like oh they think we're dumb well comparatively we are well remember mad damon how well spoken he was yeah we'll exclude mad david he's a he's perfect there's a few smart ones out there yeah i mean i think people give us a lot of credit but it's a weird job tell me because Most of the time, nobody cares.

[100] Okay.

[101] Most nights you're sitting there, you know, you maybe have, if you're, you know, CNN, maybe you have a million, million, two, million to five viewers in a country of 300 million.

[102] Sure.

[103] Which means the vast majority of people are aggressively not watching.

[104] We don't care about you at all.

[105] Uh -huh.

[106] And then suddenly something will happen.

[107] Yeah.

[108] And you might have 80 million people worldwide.

[109] The difference between CNN and, say, MSNBC or Fox News, And not talking crap, but just the reality is there's no Fox News in Thailand.

[110] Okay.

[111] There's no MSNBC in Nigeria.

[112] Okay.

[113] Like CNN is like a global platform.

[114] Uh -huh.

[115] And when real stuff goes down, like an election or something like that, the planet turns to CNN.

[116] And suddenly you're there with your friends you've been joking around with from screwing around with for eight months.

[117] And it's like, oh, this is real.

[118] Oh, fuck.

[119] Everyone's living now.

[120] That is a bizarre aspect.

[121] I never considered.

[122] Crazy, yeah.

[123] It's not like when I was on Parenthood, some weeks we had 3 million viewers and some weeks we had 120.

[124] Right, right.

[125] That is really weird.

[126] That's crazy.

[127] I guess I would certainly fall into that category of viewer where I don't watch news, mostly, it doesn't make me happier.

[128] Oh my God, by the way, we must get similar annoying comments, which is people will be like, oh, hey man, yeah, my wife says, I don't watch TV.

[129] Yeah.

[130] I'm like, okay.

[131] Yeah, I just don't watch TV.

[132] Like, okay, fantastic.

[133] Congratulations.

[134] You don't do something.

[135] Great.

[136] Let me tell you all things I do.

[137] I don't ride elephants to work.

[138] Should we celebrate?

[139] So similarly, I'd imagine people say this to you.

[140] But at any rate, yeah, I watch when exactly like you're saying, we're counting up the electoral votes.

[141] A reason to watch.

[142] They storm the Capitol.

[143] I'm now popping over to CNN.

[144] And then I do what I have to imagine you do as well is I just, as soon as I'm doing 30 minutes of CNN, I start getting really curious, like, what are they?

[145] Because they have the same data over on Fox News, but what's it look like going through their filter?

[146] So I pop over there.

[147] And then I just find, and it's generally in a hotel room, too.

[148] I seem to watch a lot of news in hotel.

[149] And I'm bouncing back and forth, trying to.

[150] And I got to tell you, the one that was the starkest for me was the Capitol Riot.

[151] Right, right.

[152] I had a rough time with it.

[153] I started at CNN because I trust CNN.

[154] Sure.

[155] Well, that's not even, I'm liberal.

[156] So, of course, I start there.

[157] And then I'm hearing, like, Donald Lemon, who I totally like, of loved listening and he's just talking about guard after guard that was ushering them in, all these cops that were letting them in and blah, blah, blah.

[158] So the picture that I was receiving was like, oh, this is a coup.

[159] Like, all the cops were in on it.

[160] That's what I thought happened.

[161] And then I start watching these long, long, protracted videos of what happened.

[162] And, yeah, a couple of idiots did that.

[163] But the vast majority of those cops were, like, in the harm's way.

[164] And that is not what was going on.

[165] I was like, oh, that's the first time I felt a little bit like, that is a sliver of what happened.

[166] But, boy, that was, I don't know.

[167] I was expecting to go to coverage and just see something completely different.

[168] Well, did you go to Fox?

[169] Where were they saying?

[170] Oh, man. Yeah, I did go.

[171] Of course, I went to Fox.

[172] and it was, what was the spin?

[173] Do you recall?

[174] I don't recall because I was on air during the whole thing.

[175] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[176] And that was one of those moments where you really can't believe what you're seeing.

[177] Oh, a thousand percent.

[178] You were sitting there minding our own business and talking about, you know, the upcoming inauguration or whatever, and then all of a sudden there are people who are smashing in the things and blah, blah.

[179] And I'm thinking to myself, if this is what black lies matter.

[180] Oh, I know.

[181] Yeah, they would have flown an F -16 over, pull up the capital.

[182] Exactly.

[183] Like, we had to sacrifice all of Congress, but we got those goddamn black activists.

[184] They call up the dude who killed Osama bin Laden from Navy SEALs.

[185] Exactly, from snipers and stuff.

[186] So that was, I think, for me, one of those moments where just the dual system, like, there's just no way in hell if 10 ,000 Muslims had charged the capital or 10 ,000 black activists had charged capital.

[187] Or 10 ,000 Mexican dreamers.

[188] Like, there would be zero tolerance, left to right, total condemnation.

[189] And we're supposed to like, well, you know.

[190] Picture some Saudis.

[191] Yeah.

[192] Oh, it would be like fucking world worth.

[193] Yeah.

[194] And so in those situations, you just have to realize we got a long way to go.

[195] So what's interesting is like, oh, man, I'm slowly, as you would expect, like, the fog is dense.

[196] So it's like, for me, first step is like I start single mom janitor, dad's out, God knows where, blah, blah, blah, all my challenges.

[197] Your privilege, white privilege.

[198] I'm like, I don't feel very privileged.

[199] So I started there, right?

[200] Like, really, I'm privileged.

[201] And then, of course, I start, like, acknowledging, like, oh, yeah, I was a functioning drug addict for 12 years, and I never spent a night in jail.

[202] If I were black, I'd certainly have been in jail, probably be in prison.

[203] Start going to the way I've talked to cops.

[204] I've told cops to fuck off when they're being assholes.

[205] And you're still here.

[206] That's right.

[207] Wow.

[208] I'm like, go ahead.

[209] Fuck you.

[210] Beat my ass.

[211] Let's fucking go.

[212] Like, let's go.

[213] Really?

[214] Yes, never touching one of them.

[215] But, like, I had a guy impound my car for no fucking reason because I was a punker and he hated me and blah, blah.

[216] And I'm like, you're a fucking pig.

[217] Wow.

[218] In a total haze of not knowing my privilege, right?

[219] So, you know, slowly kind of dissecting some of these things.

[220] And I certainly have a long way to go clearly.

[221] It's hard to recognize these things.

[222] We all feel like the hero of our story that didn't have any leg up, whatever.

[223] So I watched that Capitol riot, insurrection, whatever you want to call it, with a set of eyes that's probably also skewed, which was like, these are fucking losers.

[224] Like, I just saw losers.

[225] Like these are the fuckers at my state fair in Michigan who were throwing guys through the popcorn booth window who were just pieces of shit that are loitering around in their dummies and they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

[226] Like, but again, I can see them that way because they've never hung my uncle.

[227] They weren't the cop that pulled me. You know, so it's like I got to constantly like try to zoom out.

[228] But I saw a bunch of dipshits that couldn't possibly execute anything.

[229] So in some weird way, I felt like it wasn't as scary because they just looked like bozos.

[230] Right.

[231] What do you think of that?

[232] viewpoint.

[233] I understand it.

[234] I think obviously for those of us who literally can't say or do anything for fear of our lives, that level of brazen entitlement is just incomprehensible.

[235] Yeah.

[236] We're taught from the age of five or six.

[237] It's yes, sir, no, ma 'am.

[238] Don't look at them in the eyes.

[239] Exactly.

[240] The whole deal with me to this day.

[241] Yeah.

[242] And so I grew up in the rural south on the edge of a small town, Jackson, Tennessee.

[243] I was born in 68.

[244] So that was a year they killed Bobby Kennedy.

[245] That was a year they killed Dr. King.

[246] They were basically trying to kill hope in Americans.

[247] I was born in literally.

[248] Like my dad was in Memphis.

[249] He's from Memphis.

[250] He was in Memphis the day Dr. King was killed.

[251] My twin sister and I were in utero an hour east in Jackson, Tennessee.

[252] So I kind of grew up in this environment of trying to implement what he stood for.

[253] You know, trying to integrate the school system.

[254] Both my parents were educators.

[255] My dad had grown up poor in Memphis and went to, joined a military to get out of poverty, put himself through college.

[256] And about principal?

[257] Yeah, ended up as the principal of a middle school.

[258] But along the way, there was a lot of discrimination.

[259] The idea that my dad could be a principal was kind of like a principal with white students.

[260] Right, right, right.

[261] How's that supposed to work out?

[262] So, I mean, literally, NACP, I had to sue my home county to deal with the fact that they weren't letting, you could be a black assistant principal, they didn't have a lot of black principals.

[263] My only point is growing up in the heartland of the country.

[264] I had the experience of seeing poor white kids.

[265] I was considered a privileged kid because both my parents were school teachers.

[266] We lived in a brick house.

[267] The house had a front yard and a backyard.

[268] When a tornado came, you were.

[269] Exactly.

[270] You were fine.

[271] But two houses down, there were trailers.

[272] And those things, they could be blown away in a moment's notice.

[273] So I got a chance to kind of see this whole thing develop of watching the white guys, who I was in school with, some of who didn't have much going for them.

[274] Mm -hmm.

[275] And the whole thing that they had for themselves going on, they had a truck, right?

[276] Yeah.

[277] They could hunt.

[278] Yeah.

[279] And that was white.

[280] Yeah.

[281] Yeah.

[282] And that was it.

[283] Yeah.

[284] That was enough.

[285] And that was it.

[286] But that was enough.

[287] Yeah.

[288] And I mean, literally, you know, my first job was working at the local newspaper in the mail room, yeah, ink and their press and that kind of stuff.

[289] I mean, like 17 or something when you were doing an internship.

[290] Yeah.

[291] Exactly.

[292] Yeah.

[293] It was like 16, 17.

[294] I was still in high school.

[295] And the white guys there, that was their love.

[296] They were working, they had a job, working at the newspaper.

[297] Now, they weren't up front typing.

[298] They were in the back working to presses.

[299] And, you know, I was there because that was my first opportunity to have any kind of a job.

[300] And I wanted to be close to the newspaper.

[301] I wanted to become a reporter.

[302] But my first job was back there with those guys.

[303] And you had to be careful in ways that you wouldn't expect.

[304] For instance, if you reach, it's 2 o 'clock in the morning, you're stuffing inserts into the newspaper.

[305] reach for a bottle of Coke.

[306] When you grab that bottle, you have to make sure, is it cold or warm?

[307] If it's cold, it's Coca -Cola.

[308] If it's warm, it's spitting tobacco.

[309] Oh, there we go.

[310] Okay?

[311] So you don't want to, you don't want to grab the wrong bottle.

[312] I'm telling you, it's not a good experience.

[313] It's like, it's not a good experience.

[314] So those guys, but they were proud of their work.

[315] They were proud.

[316] And while I was there, a new press was being built across the street.

[317] It's going to be more advanced, more exciting.

[318] These guys were so excited about the new print and press coming.

[319] Oh, I'm scared.

[320] Now, that summer, I graduated from high school.

[321] I get a chance to go to college.

[322] They're calling me college boy, college boy.

[323] I got a minority scholarship to the University of Tennessee at Martin.

[324] The next summer, I come back.

[325] I don't go in the back door with the presses and take my shower after work.

[326] I take my shower before work, and I go in the front door.

[327] In two semesters of college, I'm now a completely different class of person in the same building.

[328] Yeah.

[329] And so I would see these guys in the common area with the Coke machines or whatever else.

[330] Hey, college boy, college boy, whatever.

[331] They kind of respected it, but they also didn't feel that great about it.

[332] Yeah.

[333] Yeah.

[334] Well, I was only going to say, on some level, whether they're conscious of it or not, clearly they could have done that too.

[335] It's conceivable.

[336] It's conceivable.

[337] Yeah.

[338] In fact, they have to recognize it's less likely for you to do it than them, and they didn't do it.

[339] So it's kind of a weird reminder of like, ooh.

[340] It was really a strange.

[341] kind of experience.

[342] You can't shake their hands because they're covering ink and you're not.

[343] It's a weird thing.

[344] Then the next summer, the new press opens.

[345] It's automated.

[346] And the new press is a big building -sized robot.

[347] Yeah.

[348] And they fired all those guys.

[349] So in four years, we go from me being the guy getting picked on and, hey, college boy, blah, blah, blah.

[350] They're the big guys with the big tattoos and the truck and the gun rack and all that.

[351] And then four years later, they're out of a job, but I'm on way to Yale Law School.

[352] Yeah.

[353] And I understand the resentment.

[354] Now, they aren't looking at the 57 other black guys who didn't make it.

[355] Of course.

[356] But they're looking at me. And I'm not saying that they all had the resentment, but I'm saying I could understand.

[357] Well, that this is something that we really would help ourselves to be clear about, because I think you and I are similar in this way.

[358] I don't offer excuses, but I offer explanations.

[359] There's a huge difference between an excuse.

[360] explanation.

[361] So it's like, they're not entitled to have resented you, but you can comprehend it.

[362] Here's your thing.

[363] I have fought against racism my whole life.

[364] My father, when he died, the picture they put on his funeral program was him standing in front of Yale Law School the day I graduated with his fifth in the year.

[365] Oh, man. And he told me, he said, you're a ninth generation American.

[366] Ninth generation.

[367] You're the first one in our family that was born with all your rights and look at what you've done.

[368] Wow.

[369] Yeah.

[370] So you could have rolled the credits of my life that day.

[371] Just to be 24 years old and have my parents there, you know, with all these fancy families and rich kids, but I've got the same degree that they've got.

[372] And I moved directly to the Bay Area.

[373] I started suing police.

[374] I was 24 years old with dreadlocks.

[375] It was a year after Rodney King.

[376] So I'm suing cops.

[377] I'm organizing protests.

[378] I think we both had dreadlocks at the same time.

[379] I was like with that head now, but I did.

[380] That would be very there.

[381] It was before we knew.

[382] You could be punk rock and have dreadlocks.

[383] It was all right then.

[384] When you graduated from Yale, there would have been a part of me, the part of me that has a good amount of fear or failure where I almost would have been like, I do want my life to end right now because now I got to do something with all this.

[385] I didn't feel that way because I was as angry young man. Yeah.

[386] Because I had seen Rodney King.

[387] I was saying you had a really profound experience, right?

[388] Which was when you were in Yale law, you were sent as an observer, a legal observer, to the protests in the wake of the verdict of Rodney King.

[389] Yeah.

[390] And you were in turn arrested.

[391] I would love to hear what you witnessed during all that.

[392] I think a lot of people, they see me as just like this guy on CNN who like says stuff they either like or they don't like.

[393] And they don't understand.

[394] I'm in my early 50s now.

[395] I was in my 40s before it's ever on television.

[396] Right.

[397] My 20s and my 30s, I was frontline grassroots activist organizing against police brutality, against over -incarceration, when it wasn't popular.

[398] Democrats were building prisons in California when Gray Davis and even Jerry Brown and other guys who were Democrats in California were pro -mass incarceration.

[399] You had to be very far on the left to stand up.

[400] And so for me, a lot of that got really accelerated by being a legal observer of peaceful protest.

[401] Now, there were some seriously non -peaceful protests.

[402] Well, we've all seen that.

[403] Exactly.

[404] Yeah, L .A. like, they didn't even burn to the ground.

[405] But I was in L .A. I was in San Francisco.

[406] And in San Francisco, the May 8th demonstrations, April 29th was when the verdict came down.

[407] By the time you get to May 8th, these are relatively peaceful protests.

[408] We all got arrested anyway.

[409] And I find myself as a 22 -year -old law student, and I'm saying, hold on a second.

[410] First of all, I'm not out here breaking the law at all, and I'm in jail.

[411] So let me just get my head wrapped around that.

[412] And I'm actually a law student who clearly identified to be a legal observer.

[413] And they put my ass in jailed everybody.

[414] else.

[415] Number two, they're building jails and prisons across the country, passing all these three strikes for your out.

[416] All this stuff starts happening in the 90s.

[417] I saw kids who had drug problems at Yale, they'd go to prison.

[418] Nobody called the cops.

[419] And in fact, on all these campuses, if you have a bunch of guys who were belligerent, drunk, using drugs, disrespecting women, breaking all the rules.

[420] If they're white, they're called a fraternity.

[421] If they're black, they're called a gang.

[422] Yeah, but it's the same damn behavior.

[423] So from where I come from on the whole thing, I felt like this is not liberty and justice for all.

[424] I felt like my dad being super patriotic.

[425] I mean, he was critical like all African -Americans, you know, black people pretty smart about politics.

[426] But my dad fundamentally believed that we had a real shot and needed to show our best foot forward and all that kind of stuff.

[427] And I said, look, man, this is an unfair system.

[428] And I want to do something about it.

[429] I kind of fired myself out at Yale like a cannonball and spent 15 years of frontline activism.

[430] And so that's my basis.

[431] You created a system that actually could monitor and track problem to officers who were accruing different complaints and whatnot, which prior to that, no one was doing that, right?

[432] There was no kind of outside.

[433] The only people who were doing it down in Los Angeles, there was something called Los Angeles Police Watch where they had a hotline and they were trying to, coordinate litigation, but there was nothing else in the rest of California.

[434] So I graduated from law school, moved to California, and I got the state bar association to license me to coordinate all the litigation against police departments in the Bay Area.

[435] And the great thing about it was, at that time, I had a guy named Mike McClune who built a relational computer database.

[436] So every time somebody called, we put it in a computer.

[437] And within about six weeks, certainly within three months.

[438] we knew every problem officer, every problem precinct and every problem practice in the Bay Area.

[439] So we were able to be...

[440] That quickly.

[441] That quickly because...

[442] It was that rampant.

[443] So we were able to move very, very aggressively with our lawyers and also going to the city council, going to police commission meetings.

[444] And I became a very well -known public, loudmouth critic.

[445] Can I ask what it's like driving around the Bay Area, knowing you're...

[446] Basically, you're a one -man internal affairs.

[447] Like, you're on them.

[448] What happens when you get pulled over?

[449] Luckily, I'd have a car.

[450] I was on a fart.

[451] I was on the bus and fart all the time.

[452] They went pulling the buses over too much.

[453] But, I mean, I can't.

[454] But you had to be a little bit afraid.

[455] Only a tiny, massive amount.

[456] Yeah, no, I mean, but when you're young, you're just crazy.

[457] And when you model out what's going to happen, there's a version where, like, you're celebrating as a civil rights hero, and then there's one where you get shot.

[458] And you just kind of ignore the getting shot one.

[459] No, I think I'll be.

[460] Ignore that one.

[461] But we learned some stuff.

[462] We learned that if you had the facts, if you had more data than the other side and you could control when to let it out, when not to, if you, rather than calling a press conference with just yourself, call a rally in front of the police commission right before they meet.

[463] So you come in with dozens and hundreds of people.

[464] And then you let the children speak first.

[465] Let the young people read their journal.

[466] and let the sisters do their spoken word poetry, let the young guys rap, take over the whole event by letting the truth of the young people's experience lead.

[467] Then you bring in the lawyers and the other people, but by then you pounded the police commission into butter and all the TV cameras, like they can't believe what they're getting because these kids are so unbelievable.

[468] So I learned how you could use law and data and mobilization and culture.

[469] And emotion.

[470] And emotion.

[471] The kids get you emotionally locked in.

[472] Yeah, I mean, some young girls, like, up from the pavement, out of our enslavement, but why the cops got to act like cavemen?

[473] And then you bring the grandma up just closed it out with a prayer.

[474] Oh, geez.

[475] I mean, and so we learn how to put on these kind of indoor rallies for justice using what we had, which was pain and witness and facts, and we started to win.

[476] Yeah.

[477] We lost more than we won, but we won some stuff.

[478] We got a cop fired.

[479] We got the San Francisco Police Department to reform itself.

[480] And suddenly I'm in my late 20s, and Reebok has given me an international human rights award.

[481] I'm going to the World Economic Forum, all this crazy stuff.

[482] And my life starts to change in that as I hit into my 30s, we tried to do the same thing in New York.

[483] We got beat in New York.

[484] It's hard in New York.

[485] But as I got into my 30s, I burned out.

[486] Uh -huh.

[487] Because it's brutally hard.

[488] You're basically an oncologist.

[489] Yeah.

[490] You're just seeing...

[491] Yeah, bad stuff every day.

[492] And inside the forest, I'd imagine.

[493] It's hard to get that view of the long arc of history that seems to be optimistic and getting better.

[494] You're not seeing any of that.

[495] Yeah, you got your face against the furnace every day.

[496] Yeah.

[497] You got to raise money.

[498] First, it's just you.

[499] Then you hired one person you hired two.

[500] Suddenly you've got seven people, eight people.

[501] None of these people can eat if you don't hustle.

[502] You got to go to New York.

[503] You got to go raise money.

[504] In those days, there's no YouTube.

[505] In those days, there's no, really, there's no internet.

[506] Yeah.

[507] GoFundMe's.

[508] There's no go -fund -mys.

[509] So you got to fly to New York.

[510] Get a paper check.

[511] Yeah, I mean, it's crazy.

[512] And then you have an audio cassette in your backpack and you're sitting in the lobby of the Ford Foundation or whatever it is for an hour hoping that the program officer that said they're going to meet with you, is going to meet with you.

[513] Maybe they will.

[514] Maybe they want because you're nobody.

[515] And then you've got to go in there and say, hey, do you guys have a VCR?

[516] Yeah.

[517] And, yeah, it's like, I just want to hit play on this tape and then let it speak for itself.

[518] Here's clip after clip of you go into the police commission meeting, channel two, channel four.

[519] And they're like, holy crap, you guys are really doing something.

[520] Because it's not national news.

[521] There's no YouTube.

[522] You've got to physically carry the evidence that you're doing anything at all to the philanthropic community and then hope that they're going to give you $10 ,000 or $20 ,000.

[523] or maybe $50 ,000, which is going to keep your doors open for another six weeks or eight weeks.

[524] You got to come back and do it again.

[525] I did that for years.

[526] So when people tell me, well, Van, you know, you're not woke enough.

[527] I'm like, guys, I was woke before y 'all had alarm clocks.

[528] I've been doing this.

[529] Like, this is not...

[530] I was woke for so long.

[531] I took a nap for a while.

[532] Exactly.

[533] I mean, look, I mean, geez.

[534] And so for me, it's been just an amazing thing that's now I never have to make the case anymore, that there's something wrong with the justice system.

[535] People now they believe that.

[536] Yeah.

[537] They didn't believe that for the 20 years I was in the streets.

[538] No, I got to say, I even had this crazy experience.

[539] We talked about this on the show a few times because we had this series before we were on Spotify called Black Voices.

[540] It was once a month and we talked to a lot of great activists and stuff.

[541] And I was saying I was watching, of all people, a clip of Malcolm X talking about the wealth gap primarily.

[542] And recognizing like oh my god that guy that i thought was kind of or i was brought up to think was kind of radical was just literally 35 years ahead of the message i mean it's almost i was shocked with how spot on what he was saying was with our current acceptance of redlining and exclusionary lending practice and all these things that we now acknowledge and i was like oh wow man time is weird and yeah i think for me now i just find myself in such a weird weird position because I would like to think that those people who are marching in the 50s and the 60s and they're thinking themselves, we just want for our kids to be able to go to decent public schools, maybe get a degree at a Harvard or Yale.

[543] And then when they do that, come back and give back and be a part, then maybe they're thinking about me. Like maybe that's who they were thinking about.

[544] Like, you know, kids like me, nerdy kids who weren't going to get in a bunch of trouble because we were just too nerdy, but had a little bit of talent and had some parents that were willing to get behind us and push.

[545] Like I said, I went to the University of Tennessee at Martin undergraduate on a minority scholarship.

[546] It was really my sister's scholarship, by the way, my twin sister.

[547] My twin sister, Angela was the real brains of the family.

[548] She was the star of the family.

[549] She filled out all my applications to college.

[550] She thought all that stuff.

[551] All the essay.

[552] She did all that stuff.

[553] I was in my room playing with my Atari.

[554] See brother privilege.

[555] Exactly.

[556] Yeah.

[557] Yeah.

[558] Brother privilege.

[559] So, and then she She's the one that called the university and said, hey, I'm thinking about going to the University of Tennessee at Martin as well.

[560] If you let my brother in, maybe you have a set of twins for your pamphlets.

[561] Oh, my God.

[562] She's a marketing genius.

[563] Yeah, marketing.

[564] I mean, she's way more advanced than I was.

[565] I mean, I was totally out of it.

[566] And then once I get securely into the school, she goes to a different school.

[567] Oh, good for her.

[568] So I'm literally going to the University of Tennessee at Martin on my sister's affirmative action scholarship.

[569] Oh, my God.

[570] Okay.

[571] So in that situation, she's a nice sister.

[572] Yeah, no, she's amazing.

[573] So in that situation, I worked very hard.

[574] I had a girlfriend who was a black student alliance president at Vanderbilt.

[575] Going to visit her, I saw that there was way more education you could get.

[576] But I got a great education in University, Tennessee at Martin for sure.

[577] And I went up at Yale.

[578] But then what happens to you is if you really go after these dreams of trying to change stuff, you lose a lot.

[579] And when you lose a lot, you learn a lot.

[580] And if you stick with it over time, your questions don't change, but your answers start to change.

[581] Your question, how do I help these kids in the community?

[582] What do I do about the cops?

[583] What do I do about prisons?

[584] Those questions don't change, but your answers start to change.

[585] Frankly, if you just lose more.

[586] Because you get more pragmatic or you get wisdom?

[587] You get more pragmatic.

[588] You get more wisdom.

[589] You also get the cheat codes to the game.

[590] because you realize, oh, I'm on the local community radio stuff talking about this thing.

[591] And now when I go and I try to talk to the mayor's office, the mayor's not going to talk to me, but secretary knows who I am.

[592] Sure.

[593] She heard me on that black radio station.

[594] Now she's going to help me. And now I've got an ally, before it was just fuck the whole system.

[595] But now I've got some people on the inside who are helping me. And you just start figuring this stuff out.

[596] Over time, I've gotten to the point people like, man, how can you work with Republicans?

[597] How can you work all these different people?

[598] like aren't you a sellout and I'm like I know that a critique of yours oh yeah 100 % like okay firstly I'm unaware of that but okay yeah look I think if you're a young woke black activist who's seeing the trumps of the world get away with all this stuff who's seen the insurrections get away with all this stuff you know you're learning every day something some other outrage on social media here's another black kid getting shot there's another black kid getting disrespect another black kid getting shot.

[599] And you look around and here's Van Jones.

[600] He's sitting up on CNN on an air -conditioned set next to Anderson Cooper, wearing a nice suit.

[601] And then the next time you see him, he's talking to Jared Kushner and he's talking to Newt Gingrich and he's going to CPAC talking.

[602] This guy is a terrible person.

[603] Right, right, right.

[604] Yeah, you're dining with the enemy.

[605] Yeah, exactly.

[606] And so part of the reason I'm having my own podcast called Uncommon Ground is I want to talk about in this polarized world there are some things that we've got to work on together even with people we don't agree with.

[607] Oh, okay.

[608] It's the only way anything will change ever.

[609] I mean, yeah.

[610] I have so many thoughts about this.

[611] I see this happening with Obama a lot.

[612] And by the way, as you talk about your history, it's virtually the same history.

[613] I mean, you guys both go to Ivy League schools and your lawyers, your activists.

[614] You end up working as administration.

[615] It's very, very similar.

[616] And I feel like Obama gets shit sometimes, too.

[617] He, like, transcends all the things.

[618] But even he, I remember really loving him saying, like, if you think your contribution is screaming at people on Twitter, you're a joke.

[619] He took kind of a line that was probably to the right of where a lot of the left people are on that topic.

[620] And I had many thoughts, and I want to bring in also accidental courtesy.

[621] Have you seen that documentary?

[622] I haven't seen it, but I've talked to the guy that he gets a clamp.

[623] He's a jazz musician.

[624] Yeah.

[625] And he collects in his closet he's got like 15 robes of clansmen they've given him as they've left the clan whatever great documentary and there's a moment where he's sitting down at a cafe i want to say maybe in memphis and he's talking with some BLM organizers and they're furious about this that he would go meet them right and here's where as i say as as i'm trying to look through the fog i never know when i'm on the wrong side of it because i always hear the the martin luther thing you know beware of the white liberal because I'm often the white liberals.

[626] It's like, it's going pretty good, guys.

[627] Right?

[628] It was worse.

[629] It was worse.

[630] Yeah, so I never know if I'm enacting that.

[631] But I will say, I respected him so much in that I will meet with anybody.

[632] Yeah.

[633] I'll sit down with anybody.

[634] And also, this will not be a zero -sum victory for anyone.

[635] It's not ever going to happen.

[636] The left or the right will not ever win.

[637] That's not in our future.

[638] My analogy is always like, hey, y 'all, we're married, period.

[639] you.

[640] This country is married.

[641] The blue and the red got married.

[642] Divorce is not an option.

[643] Nope.

[644] So do we want to live in the fucking cancerous, toxic marriage the rest of our life?

[645] Or do we want to start figuring out some tools and listening and being a little forgiving and all these things?

[646] Because I don't want to be in a shit marriage the rest of my life.

[647] I agree.

[648] So I look at stuff that you do and I applaud it so much.

[649] And then, of course, I have the voice going like, is this just the white liberal going like, oh, good, he's, it's hard for me to know.

[650] Well, what do you think?

[651] You're not a white liberal.

[652] I'm a brown liberal, yeah.

[653] No, I totally think, like, I mean, the hardest thing for me to see is the lack of communication and interaction and this silo and this silo and nothing's getting done.

[654] And it's, I mean, for me, that's just like everyone's so inefficient.

[655] And the only way to get anywhere is to cross the aisle a little bit.

[656] You have to.

[657] It came to that over time.

[658] At first, I was like, when you're in the berserkly.

[659] You were communist for one second, right?

[660] Like, I think it was like, you know, can we work with the anarchists?

[661] I don't know.

[662] Right.

[663] It's like, can we work with the Trotskyists?

[664] I don't know.

[665] Let's discuss this.

[666] How trustworthy are the Trotsky.

[667] Yeah, exactly.

[668] So I was on the left side of Pluto.

[669] And frankly, I'm proud of it, have never apologized for it.

[670] I mean, given what I had seen as a black kid growing up in the rural South and then seeing all this privilege at Yale and seeing all these prisons in California, like, I'm proud of myself that I was willing to take on the system as best I knew how with the tools I had when I was 24, 25, 26 years old.

[671] that's also something called freedom like in this country like you get to think what you want and try stuff out and you're also free to change your mind over time as you'll learn more stuff and so for me what i eventually realized is that every time we won got a cop fired stopped a prison project it was never the usual suspects by ourselves it was always some weird unlikely coalition every muppet in the muppet show every color in the skittles bag, like, somehow it all gotten together on the same side, and then we won.

[672] So they were going to build a super jail for kids in Oakland.

[673] And we thought it was terrible.

[674] And there were five people on the county commission, and we had two votes, two black guys that were against it.

[675] And there were three other people who were basically for it.

[676] And we couldn't break them.

[677] They said, we're going to build this jail for kids.

[678] We've got to build this jail for kids.

[679] These kids need this jail.

[680] You're not going to deprive, these kids are in this jail.

[681] You'll not deprive these children of their...

[682] Exactly.

[683] They have a right to this jail.

[684] They have a right to this jail.

[685] Now, of course, if our kids get on drugs, they're going to rehab.

[686] These kids are going to jail.

[687] Even if my kid murdered someone, we're going to another country.

[688] Exactly.

[689] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[690] We've all been there.

[691] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[692] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[693] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[694] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[695] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[696] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[697] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[698] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[699] What's up, guys?

[700] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[701] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[702] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[703] And I don't mean just friends.

[704] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler.

[705] Kelle Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[706] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[707] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[708] And so, you know, I'm going through this fight.

[709] And what we realize, though, is that this super jail for kids in Oakland wasn't going to be in Oakland.

[710] It was going to be in the same county, but outside of Oakland.

[711] And we realized, hold on a second, I bet the people in this community where it's coming don't know.

[712] So we go out there and it's a bunch of white people.

[713] and we show up a bunch of black people from Oakland who say, how you doing?

[714] Two thousand more of us.

[715] Exactly.

[716] There's going to be about 3 ,000 of us every weekend coming to see our cousins.

[717] And so all of a sudden, the race...

[718] You guys better open up a barbecue restaurant quick.

[719] Exactly.

[720] You better do something.

[721] It's going to be a whole bunch of stuff happening out here.

[722] And suddenly, us anti -racist and the actual racists were arm in arm.

[723] Yeah.

[724] We don't want...

[725] You don't want us here.

[726] We don't want to be out here.

[727] Yeah.

[728] And we won.

[729] Yeah, wow.

[730] And so I learned, like, hell, you know, guys, seriously, it's always the unlikely coalition.

[731] It's always when you talk to somebody who you don't expect to have anything in common with.

[732] And then suddenly something opens up.

[733] Yeah.

[734] And then you're able to help somebody.

[735] So then the question is, are you concerned about image or impact?

[736] Exactly.

[737] Do you want a solution or do you want to just talk?

[738] Yeah.

[739] And so, you know, if you put results over rhetoric, you ultimately wind up.

[740] And at least, you in my experience, I have come to a conclusion.

[741] The people who I care about, the addicted, the convicted, the otherwise afflicted, they don't have a political party because they mostly don't vote or they can't vote.

[742] They don't donate.

[743] They don't really, if you're in prison, you aren't marching or tweeting.

[744] They're really the captives of the political system.

[745] They're not left or right.

[746] I've never been anybody in prison that said, Van, get me out of here.

[747] It's terrible.

[748] whatever you do, don't work with any Republicans.

[749] I've never heard that in 30 years.

[750] And so I came to just decide, you know, for me. I'm going to put what in the Christian church, the least of these, the folks at the bottom, I'm going to put them first, and I'll work with or against anybody who is going to aid me in that cause.

[751] Yeah, people don't like that.

[752] They don't like it.

[753] Yeah, I find that very frustrating.

[754] It's privileged.

[755] It is weird.

[756] Yeah, it's just like cool to be an idealist.

[757] but if that's where it stops, then who gives a shit what your grand idea was?

[758] If you couldn't figure out how to enact anything.

[759] Now, I want to know really quick, how did your dad feel about you getting out of Yale and then going to pursue that?

[760] He wanted you to come back home to Tennessee, maybe?

[761] I'll never forget.

[762] One of the biggest moments of my life was, after I gone to Yale, I was still a student there.

[763] I think I'd come home for like Thanksgiving the last year, my third year.

[764] We were in Memphis with my dad's family and all his cousins and his brother.

[765] giving me so much shit oh man you're gonna do what you're gonna go work for poor people hell with that like you should go get some money they were 100 % like man and they were talking about what they would do if they had a law degree and all the money they'd make and cars they'd buy and all sorts of stuff and my father who was a tough guy you know ex -military guy not a guy of a lot of words or a lot of affection frankly he said leave him alone somebody's got to do it he wants to do it leave him alone well that's nice and it was like silence in the house because my dad was like he was like the alpha guy and i was like oh that's cool that was the first time that he had rendered any kind of judgment or opinion about what i should do or what i shouldn't do and i kind of assumed that he like the rest of the family was outraged that i wasn't going to go make a bunch of money yeah but he actually was on the other side of it so i wonder for him if because I think I've been coming to terms of this a little bit personally, which is he was coming into his own in an era where some things were possible for the first time.

[766] So as you say, he became a black principal.

[767] And now his son goes to Yale.

[768] And so from the egocentric point of view, it's kind of working.

[769] Or at least it's working in his world, right?

[770] Like the progress is being made.

[771] I'm watching it real time.

[772] it's happening.

[773] My analogy that I personally think is I'll have a lot of guests on here.

[774] We'll be bonding over some trauma, some violence, some abuse, all this kind of stuff.

[775] And then I'll say, like, well, but it made me me and I'm here.

[776] Well, what that ignores is that 90 % of people, that stuff crushes.

[777] And so just because I kind of, like, I've now come to be grateful for that background, it ignores that the vast majority of people are destroyed by it.

[778] And it shouldn't be like, oh, who gives the fuck because it made me?

[779] largely it's destroying everybody and you're kind of ignoring the vast reality of the situation because you personally maybe are finding that pathway I think that for my dad to be a young black guy in the 60s as he was military and all that and then to come home people I mean it's hard for us to imagine now it was not an uncommon thing for somebody to go to a rally and get beaten almost to death to have their arm broken and be held in jail for a week with no medical care, that was what it meant to go to a rally.

[780] Like, we go to rallies now.

[781] It's like, it's like a parade.

[782] You hope Starbucks is open.

[783] Yeah, exactly.

[784] Let me make sure I bring my water bottle.

[785] Everybody knew somebody who had those kind of experiences, and they really were pushing a door open that had been closed for 400 years.

[786] And so for them to be the first ones to push through, and then to grab their children and push their children ahead of them.

[787] Yeah.

[788] And so you guys now have to go into these buildings and go into these institutions that we were kept out of.

[789] Well, it's all about managing expectations and what are realistic expectations.

[790] And so from the 60s, the expectations that he would be a principal, you'd end up at Yale.

[791] Well, anything beyond, that's probably a fairy tale.

[792] Like the notion you're going to lift everyone off or reduce police brutality, you're always kind of just readjusting what is possible.

[793] Yeah, but I definitely felt more or less consciously.

[794] that my father had done so much with so little, that he had helped his brother get through college, my uncle Milton, that he had helped a cousin get through college, that he had always been there for his family.

[795] A lot of the people who got out of poverty, and my family got out of poverty on this bridge, call my father's back.

[796] He was sending money home for somebody's going to get evicted, somebody's going to lose their car, somebody's kids, we didn't have a lot of money, but it was going back to try to get people out.

[797] And then he became an educator, and when they gave him the school in my home county, Madison County, they didn't give him the good school with the white kids where he had been the assistant principal.

[798] They gave him the crappy school with three housing projects feeding into it.

[799] And he said, thank you, because I know how to deal with those kids.

[800] I was one of those kids.

[801] And he became an estate award -winning educator.

[802] And when he died, the line was around the church, black and white.

[803] People were stuff to say about my father and how he'd help them.

[804] So I was very aware my father had done so much with so little.

[805] Yeah.

[806] The area he covered.

[807] And so how do I, who never had to go through what he went through, and now I've got this fancy decree, I've got to at least match what he did.

[808] That's hard?

[809] Yeah.

[810] And then if you try to match it on a one -to -one his resources versus his impact versus mine, I mean, how do you do that?

[811] Yeah, I'd become president.

[812] Yeah, you got to be old Bobbitt to catch my dad.

[813] And so I've always felt that sense that I was trying to complete something that my dad had started, or maybe his dad had started.

[814] Maybe his dad had started.

[815] Yeah.

[816] Well, clearly, like, your grandpa, you hung with him, you went to church, he clearly was a stand -up guy.

[817] Yeah, sure.

[818] It was crazy because, on the one hand, my dad grew up in the hood, and my mom was, like, the daughter of this college president.

[819] Oh, wow.

[820] And so they meet and then get married.

[821] So I'm in this kind of class -divided family, where on the one hand, my grandfather on my mom's side as, like, a Ph .D., college president becomes a bishop, and our church becomes a senior bishop, in our church, the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, CME.

[822] And my dad is like from like Orange Mound Memphis, like the hood of the hood.

[823] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[824] And so I'm in this family where...

[825] There's class within your family.

[826] Oh, my God, you know, like unbelievable.

[827] And my father...

[828] Was your dad intimidated by any of that?

[829] He wasn't intimidated by it.

[830] He was annoyed by it.

[831] Sure, okay.

[832] He was disgusted by it.

[833] Because...

[834] It felt upper -classy kind of...

[835] Yeah, he felt like they were looking down on them in.

[836] The only reason he felt that way is because they were.

[837] Oh.

[838] And so now his father died when he was very young, but the two men in my family, I had my grandfather who was very respected, having been a college president and senior bishop, and then my father, who was very affected having fought his way up to being a principal of a public school.

[839] And these are the two men in my family.

[840] They were very strong men.

[841] They were educators.

[842] They were educated.

[843] And they were doing what they could to try to lift up the community.

[844] So it wasn't a surprise to me. me that I wanted to do it that way.

[845] I think what surprised both my grandfather and my father was how radical I was in my 20s because I was like, no, no, guys, you understand.

[846] I've been to the center of the society.

[847] I've been at Yale.

[848] I've seen them teaching all this stuff and then you walk out the front door and none of it applies to black people.

[849] I'm in the law school, in the library, in the citadel, and reading all this stuff about liberty and justice for all.

[850] And I can't walk from the law library to my apartment and see any evidence of it.

[851] So now I'm pissed.

[852] You lied to me. Yeah.

[853] I'm coming.

[854] Did you have a lot of white friends when you were younger or did it feel more segregated?

[855] You know, I was part of that generation where we actually did have white and black friends.

[856] And now, of course, it's much more segregated because of private schools and stuff like that.

[857] But I was lucky.

[858] I was in that group of people.

[859] I had white friends.

[860] I had black friends.

[861] but the socialization that would happen after school was completely segregated.

[862] So we would hang out together at school.

[863] We were being in the different debate clubs and that kind of stuff together.

[864] But it never would occur to me when I had a party, a little house party.

[865] My sister had a party.

[866] I was a nerd, but my sister would have a house party.

[867] I want to meet your sister.

[868] She's dumb.

[869] My sister's dope.

[870] She's amazing.

[871] But when she would have a party at the house, it would never occur to us to invite our white friends.

[872] And also, Monday, you go to school, and they're like talking about the house party they had at the white nobody was mad yeah yeah it was just assumed that that we wouldn't socialize well in the 70s and 80s as i sit here talking to you and as i've seen you on television you have a a ton of charm and charisma but your sister described you as like the apex nerd like the most stereotypical nerd head in a book all the time yes hanging with granddad at a church not super cool Was that your growth into somebody who could fly to New York and go into someone's office and woo them into giving you money?

[873] Was that one of your harder challenges?

[874] I mean, I was as nerdy as you could humanly be.

[875] I made Urkel look cool.

[876] I mean, I was...

[877] Urquil look like Ice Cube next to you.

[878] Exactly.

[879] I mean, like seriously, seriously, with no joke at all.

[880] And it's hard for me even now to realize that people don't see me that way because I still feel that way.

[881] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[882] I still feel like the little guy on the outside, getting picked on, getting teased.

[883] I used to, when I was in junior high school, because that's, you know, really when you're getting the height, like, bull.

[884] And by then, back then, there was no such thing as bullying as a bad thing.

[885] It was like, you deserve to get bullied because you're a little fucking sissy.

[886] And your dad's even like, hopefully they'll teach him to be tough.

[887] Exactly.

[888] No, I'm serious.

[889] Like the idea, like this whole culture change where it's like bullying is bad.

[890] It's like, no, no, no. The world is tough, and you should quit being a sissy and learn how to fight.

[891] You're going to have to have to fight.

[892] So get with it.

[893] Get with it.

[894] So I grew up in that.

[895] Same.

[896] I grew up in that.

[897] Yeah.

[898] And so I'd be like, well, you have a decision to make.

[899] You want to get your ass beat for the next six years?

[900] You're a bunch of a kid in the nose.

[901] Those are your choices.

[902] Do what you want to do.

[903] Exactly.

[904] It's so hard for people who are in their 20s now to understand, like, this is a whole.

[905] whole new world where you could say I'm being bullied and anybody would care.

[906] Absolutely.

[907] If you're being a bully, it's because you deserve it.

[908] That's practice for the real world.

[909] 100%.

[910] So I would get my little tray of food in the cafeteria and I would go out the back of the cafeteria around the side of the building into the gym, which was empty and dark, go to the back of the bleachers, climb up the back of the bleachers and eat my food there.

[911] Oh, man. so that I didn't have to deal with the ass whooping.

[912] Yeah, yeah.

[913] So you could get some food in before you.

[914] Exactly.

[915] So I'm like, I'm always the first person in the cafeteria, so I can be the first person out the cafeteria.

[916] In class, five minutes early, she didn't be in the hallway.

[917] Exactly.

[918] So when I finally got to college, what saved me was my mom.

[919] My mom saved me twice.

[920] The first way she saved me was when I was four years old, my dad and my uncles and all those guys were belligerent and loud.

[921] and I asked my mom and said, why are they making it on this racket?

[922] She said, because they're drinking alcohol.

[923] And she said, all the men in your family have a problem with alcohol.

[924] And if you drink alcohol, you'll act just like that.

[925] I was four years old, I said, I'm never going to drink.

[926] Are you kidding me?

[927] And I've never had a drink.

[928] You're kidding me. I'm not joking.

[929] The best decision in my life I made when I was four years old.

[930] I had the same dad, my mom said the same thing, and then I had to go try it.

[931] And here we are sitting together.

[932] Yeah, yeah.

[933] I guess it worked out.

[934] But for me, I just, it was a beer.

[935] I was like, oh, a second, that sounds like a hundred percent chance of a outcome that I don't think is great.

[936] And so I just went the other ways.

[937] I've never had a beer, I've never had a wine, never had a glass of champagne, never had a sip.

[938] Never had a hangover.

[939] Never had a hangover.

[940] Never had any.

[941] No DUI.

[942] None of that stuff.

[943] And so that was very helpful to me. But the other thing that she did was when I got to high school and I was not the most popular kid by far.

[944] My sister was very popular.

[945] but I was not and every girl I liked did not even know that I existed.

[946] It wasn't like they didn't like me. It's like they didn't even know I was there.

[947] Right.

[948] You were invisible.

[949] Yeah, yeah.

[950] And my mom said, Anthony, which is my birth name, she said, Anthony, this is high school.

[951] And for a lot of these kids, these are their glory years.

[952] 20 years from now, they're going to be talking about what they did in high school.

[953] This is their time.

[954] It's not your time.

[955] Your time is coming.

[956] Your time will be long after these days have faded away.

[957] And you're going to have your time later.

[958] And she said in her southern accent, the brawny kids rule now and the brainy kids rule later.

[959] Later is coming.

[960] And so I just hung on it.

[961] You had faith in that.

[962] I hung on to that.

[963] So I got through high school.

[964] My sister got me in a college.

[965] And I hit college.

[966] And I just suddenly it was okay to be smart.

[967] Yeah.

[968] It was okay to be smart.

[969] It was cool to be smart.

[970] Also, can I add, you're probably different.

[971] So you're not invisible.

[972] You might even be exciting.

[973] Yeah, well, I mean, look, the guys in the fraternities and stuff like that.

[974] But for the political nerds and the journalist nerds and the art nerds, you have more space and you're less likely to get your ass beat in college.

[975] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[976] And so, yeah, I just went from.

[977] Well, you would understand this better.

[978] And anyone, I get asked in interviews all the time.

[979] Like, when did you want to be an actor?

[980] Do you act in high school?

[981] I'm like, are you kidding?

[982] I would not be sitting here if I acted in my high school.

[983] I would have been killed in the bargain on.

[984] Repeated.

[985] That wasn't an option.

[986] It was not a thing.

[987] No, what are you talking about?

[988] Not a thing at all.

[989] But I discovered when I got to law school, that I could talk, that I could speak.

[990] In college, I was a writer, I was a journalist.

[991] And then, I don't know.

[992] Over time, I realized I was completely fearless in only one context, which was if there was an issue that I cared about or something I thought was wrong.

[993] now I was a total coward in every other situation like you'll never see me on a motorcycle you'll never see me bungee jumping I'm never gonna know how to parachute my ass up I'm like I would know I would cry before we even got up there so I'm not I'm never going to go to a bar and like challenge somebody like this one like no I'm pardon me sir none of that but if I saw something I thought was wrong I was fearless about taking it on And I think it's because I was bullied.

[994] Yeah, yeah.

[995] And I think it was like, I wish as a kid that somebody would have stuck up for me. Yeah.

[996] So I fucking hate bullies.

[997] I live to fuck with bully.

[998] Now, I went another direction, but I wasn't a nerd, but I also, I skateboarded, I snowboarded.

[999] I had dreadlocks.

[1000] I wasn't a weirdo.

[1001] I wasn't a jock.

[1002] I was a weirdo, exactly.

[1003] So, yeah, I kind of lived as I got bigger and became an alcoholic.

[1004] I kind of lived to meet that guy at the bar.

[1005] Right.

[1006] You're like, oh, high school's over, motherfucker.

[1007] But so I want to go back now to, because.

[1008] because I filed this in my head in such a specific way, displaying all my insecurities, but I went up to you last month when we met.

[1009] I went up to you and I was like, hey, Van, I'm Dax, nice to meet you.

[1010] I think we had you scheduled to think.

[1011] And you were like, oh, you didn't have any awareness of it from my point of view.

[1012] And I was like, first of all, he does no idea who I am.

[1013] B, he has no idea of a podcast.

[1014] C, the worst case scenario.

[1015] He thinks I'm asking him to be on the podcast of the social situation.

[1016] And I was like, this fucking went sideways in a heart.

[1017] So that was my perception of the entire thing when I walked away.

[1018] But now when you say to me that you still think of yourself as a nerd, I'm like, who knows what that me walking up to you felt like?

[1019] I have no clue now that I know that.

[1020] Do you have any memory of me coming up to you?

[1021] I certainly do.

[1022] You were one of the few actual celebrities there.

[1023] Like, everybody else is sort of like people who either have money or they have books or whatever.

[1024] Invented some shit.

[1025] Exactly.

[1026] So I remember you said something about your podcast.

[1027] And I felt embarrassed because I have a whole team of people whose job.

[1028] it is is to make sure that I am where I'm supposed to be and then I respond to my emails and stuff like that and I felt you're panicked maybe yeah I felt super embarrassed myself because like did I fuck up and not like show up in the right place or like did I like did I like make an enemy here did I like holy shit like this has gone south really fast oh no I was just so excited to see you and I was excited to meet you and I was like oh this will be a great starter I think you were going to do the show And then I thought we would just ramp into something.

[1029] But you're now in a panic that you fuck something up.

[1030] I'm like, oh, this guy, he doesn't know me. And now he thinks I'm an opportunist who's trying to book my fucking show at this event.

[1031] Hey, you see, I'm here.

[1032] I've been happy to the show.

[1033] As soon as I got back, I said, hey, this guy wants to be on the show.

[1034] I'm going on on the show.

[1035] So, but in my mind, I was like, okay, he's kind of letting me know that I've screwed up somehow.

[1036] Oh, no. Yeah, we were waiting for about two hours.

[1037] Exactly.

[1038] That's literally what I thought had happened.

[1039] So I'm like, oh, my God.

[1040] I can't tell you how many times we've had this on the show where it's like I kind of go through how I met someone and both of our opinions of what happened are so fucking...

[1041] Because it's everyone's insecurities coming together at the same time.

[1042] Everyone's blinded by their own.

[1043] His is I might have dropped the ball.

[1044] Fuck, I dropped the ball.

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] I do think that one of the things that happens is everybody in their own mind is always a kid from somewhere.

[1047] Exactly.

[1048] I'm a kid from Jackson, Tennessee.

[1049] I had to fight my way with my sister self, my family self, but to fight my way to get here.

[1050] And at any moment, it could always go away.

[1051] And that's not how the other person sees you.

[1052] They see you as wherever you are in the mountain climb.

[1053] That's who you are.

[1054] You've always been that.

[1055] Of course you're that.

[1056] Yeah.

[1057] You're a handsome fit dude who has his own show on CNN.

[1058] So I'm like, oh, he's the king.

[1059] So I'm going to go talk to him.

[1060] And I don't feel that way at all.

[1061] There's never a day in my life where I don't feel vulnerable or I don't feel that it could all end and I'll just be little Anthony Jones with no friends with no help hiding behind the bleachers I mean that's never more than a fraction of a second away in my mind for myself in any situation or interaction and people who I grew up with they're so shocked that I'm on TV and I'm talking because my sister was the one who did all the talking.

[1062] In fact, she wouldn't let me talk.

[1063] She's like, I'm Angela, this is Anthony, blah, blah, blah.

[1064] He was born four minutes before me. They're like, she's going to be Oprah.

[1065] Exactly.

[1066] It's going to program computers.

[1067] I mean, look, in fact, you know, a couple times I went back home to Tennessee and I would see people who I went to high school with.

[1068] My school's not that big.

[1069] And they wouldn't know who I was and I would say, hey, my name is Anthony Jones, blah, blah, we were in school together, blah, blah.

[1070] And then my wife at the time would say, this is Angela Jones's brother.

[1071] They go, oh, Angela!

[1072] I love Angela.

[1073] She had a brother?

[1074] I'm like, we're twins.

[1075] We were literally in the same class together for 12 years.

[1076] What are you talking about?

[1077] So for me, it's been, I've only now in my 50s begun to accept even a part of the idea that, that's your description, like, I'm handsome and fit these times.

[1078] That's not my daily experience of myself.

[1079] My daily experience of myself is I have a lot to prove and I have a lot to do and it could all in any point and I really, every time I'm on TV I'm like, if this is my last time on TV I want to do a good job.

[1080] If I give a speech, this is my last speech, I want to do a good job.

[1081] I do an interview.

[1082] I want to do a good job.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Because I'm not a rich man's child.

[1085] Yeah.

[1086] Well, and also, this is just a side note, but when you were talking about your father helping family members, we had someone I was talking about of the many, many layers one doesn't think about is that even when someone does break through that's black, a white kid that breaks through in the same way, they're generally saving whatever money they now are making in that the vast majority of black folks that break through, they're now supporting a bunch of people, so not acquiring or accruing all this money.

[1087] Before we talk about your documentary, which I want to, I just want to talk about another neat thing about you, I think, from the outside, is, and of course I'm naturally drawn to this life story because I'm an actor, and every actor, is high, then they're low, then they're high, they're out of the business, they're back in the business, what is this?

[1088] You know, it's a very insecure life.

[1089] And so when I look at these chapters of your life, so as you said, you're in the Bay Area, you're doing a bunch of good work, you get burnt out.

[1090] So now we go, we kind of switch directions.

[1091] You get interested in the green movement and the environment and how to perhaps fuel our economy with these advancements and include the people that have been disenfranchised.

[1092] And through that process, you come to work in the Obama White House and I didn't know this until I was researching you.

[1093] I didn't know that you left under great pressure to resign.

[1094] Yeah, yeah.

[1095] In over what ultimately proved to be a false rumor, the dagger shot, right?

[1096] So if I can bring Monica up to speed, there was this rumor that Van had signed a petition that was accusing George Bush of having allowed 9 -11 to happen.

[1097] Okay.

[1098] And people just ran with that.

[1099] They ran with that to the point where...

[1100] No facts.

[1101] Yeah, and then ultimately that organization, whatever the fuck it was called, it could have taken one second at the outset of this to just go through their fucking database, but whatever they didn't, obviously.

[1102] Eventually conclude, oh, we don't really have any digital record of Van doing anything like that.

[1103] Sorry, oops.

[1104] Yeah, but by then I've been out of the White House for nine months.

[1105] So I see your life story is not just interesting on the many levels.

[1106] It would be interesting just because of who you are, but the resets, man, like, you learn more about yourself.

[1107] If the ride is just that nice vertical leap, I don't know when someone learns who they are or what their real identities or all these things.

[1108] But, man, to have to, like, leave that administration, I want to know where your head was at, what you thought you were going to do.

[1109] You couldn't have imagined you would then have this career on CNN at that point.

[1110] So what were you feeling and what were you thinking was your future at that point?

[1111] I didn't think I was going to have a future.

[1112] I mean, to your point, I had a good run in the Bay Area in my 20s into my early 30s, taken on cops and being a part of every left -wing cause and every left -wing organization.

[1113] You could not be further left than me and still be in the known universe.

[1114] But in my early 30s, you know, I became a dad.

[1115] All of a sudden, you're looking around.

[1116] You're no longer saying, fuck the schools.

[1117] You're saying fix the schools.

[1118] Right, right, right.

[1119] It's like a different mentality when you become a parent in a town and you want things to work.

[1120] And also I burned out on some of the crazy stuff.

[1121] and I had become more spiritually engaged, going to Buddhist retreat centers and that type of stuff, just trying to heal.

[1122] And it discovered a lot of the ecological solutions.

[1123] I'm like, how come when I go to Moran County, there's like hybrid cars and solar panels?

[1124] When I go to Oakland 20 minutes away or 40 minutes away, it's asthma inhalers and smokestacks.

[1125] I said, you know, we need green jobs, not jails.

[1126] Like, we need to bring these things together.

[1127] So I started trying to bridge those gaps, wind up with something called the Oakland Green Jobs Corps where we convince the city of Oakland and start teaching black kids to put up solar panels as a way to fight pollution and poverty at the same time.

[1128] Nancy Pelosi had just become Speaker of the House across the bridge in San Francisco.

[1129] She says, this is amazing.

[1130] Takes me to Washington, D .C. I get a chance to testify in front of a bunch of her committees.

[1131] All of a sudden, we've got a bill called the Green Jobs Act that George W. Bush signs to spread my program across the country through the Department of Labor.

[1132] All of a sudden, in just that 18 -month period, I go from this marginal activist who's F -the -Police guy to somebody who's got the president signing my bill.

[1133] Policy.

[1134] Policy, like at the federal level.

[1135] And then I wrote a book about it.

[1136] The book became a bestseller.

[1137] Somebody in Obama's camp reads the book.

[1138] Boom, I'm in the White House.

[1139] Like, you know.

[1140] Are you like, this is what my mom was talking about?

[1141] Exactly.

[1142] Exactly.

[1143] And then six months later, the right wing says, hold on a second.

[1144] This guy's a radical.

[1145] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1146] Berserkley, up the police.

[1147] Like, Marxist.

[1148] Like, what the heck?

[1149] And so Glenn Beck started raising holy hell on Fox News about it.

[1150] And they found a videotape where I called like Republicans assholes, which then they started acting like assholes about it.

[1151] So kind of proved my point.

[1152] However, the crazy thing about it was when I was.

[1153] In the White House, I was one of the few people in the building that was working to build support in Appalachia for what we were doing.

[1154] I was calling into right -wing radio stations trying to build support.

[1155] So I was actually one of the few people in the administration who was passionate about.

[1156] We've got to bring the Republicans on board.

[1157] I'm from the red states.

[1158] I understand their concerns.

[1159] So I would get on the radio and say, hey, look, they say, okay, we've got to have somebody from the Obama administration, some young green guy.

[1160] Let's see what he has to say for him.

[1161] I would come on and I'd kick their ass and I'd say, I just want to know how come you guys want China to beat the United States in the next technological revolution.

[1162] Okay.

[1163] It's a good way in.

[1164] Just kick them right in the teeth.

[1165] I don't understand why you want China to beat the United States with the next technological revolution.

[1166] I don't understand why you want us to lose.

[1167] Why you love China so much?

[1168] And they're like, what, what?

[1169] Why are you a China file?

[1170] Exactly.

[1171] And so I was doing it and I was making sure that we were getting support to Apple And all that kind of stuff as well as Michigan, another place I cared about.

[1172] So I was doing a good job.

[1173] And then suddenly it just got to be too much because it started to snowball.

[1174] This guy, Van Jones, this guy Van Jones, he's a communist, he's a Marxist, he's a radical.

[1175] And it's getting bigger and bigger online.

[1176] It's getting bigger and bigger on Twitter.

[1177] It's getting bigger, bigger, bigger on Fox News.

[1178] And then they come with the lie that I'm a 9 -11 truther.

[1179] I'm like, look, even when I was a radical, I wasn't that out there.

[1180] So, and I just didn't have it, man. I ran.

[1181] Yeah.

[1182] I hid behind the bleachers.

[1183] Yeah, of course And I didn't have the fortitude That's really huge of you to say Because you could easily hang it on I respected Obama so much I didn't want to distract That was a part of But also I just didn't have it Right, right I just didn't have it My dad was a tough motherfucker, he was tough You could smash him in the head With a hammer and he'd be like He wouldn't flinch I was never tough Okay I was resilient I'd come back Yeah But I would feel it, and I would cry.

[1184] And my dad hated, you know, see a kid, a black boy crying.

[1185] That was not a part of the code.

[1186] Right.

[1187] And so I just, I didn't have it.

[1188] By the way, you got to have sympathy for him now, which is the fear now that you know as a dad, is like, I don't want this guy to get even up.

[1189] To be a victim, yeah, exactly.

[1190] So you wind up victimize him ahead of time.

[1191] Even worse.

[1192] I'm going to victimize you because I love you so much.

[1193] I want you to actually have all the pain now with me. This one sanctuary where you could be happy.

[1194] I'm going to destroy two.

[1195] Exactly.

[1196] To make sure you're ready for the world out there.

[1197] That's terrible.

[1198] I just didn't have it.

[1199] I didn't have it.

[1200] I didn't have it.

[1201] And when I resigned, look, I did feel, and Obama didn't ask me to resign.

[1202] Nobody asked me to resign.

[1203] But I did feel that I was there to protect and defend Obama.

[1204] He wasn't there to protect and defend me. Yeah.

[1205] I did feel that if you're in White House staff and you become the issue, if you can't figure out a way to fix it, you need to get a hell out of there because nobody liked it you.

[1206] They liked it, the big guy.

[1207] And so I say, I'll fall on my sword.

[1208] Nobody tells you in the next scene, you're still on the ground with a fucking sword in your gut.

[1209] And you're going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[1210] The camera moves on.

[1211] The plot moves on, but you're still there.

[1212] Yeah.

[1213] Someone might visit your grave later in a scene.

[1214] Yeah, maybe, maybe at the end.

[1215] Think of you kindly.

[1216] Exactly.

[1217] If you're black widow, they don't even do that.

[1218] It's all about Tony Stark.

[1219] They don't even care about it.

[1220] So I was Black Widow, man. I, like, sacrifice myself, like, nobody cared for all you Avenger fans up there.

[1221] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1222] And it took me about a year, year and a half, almost two years, to be able to put my brain back together.

[1223] Luckily, Nola Way, Rooks, and Cornell West at Princeton reached out to me to give me a teaching post there.

[1224] Prince reached out and I worked with him on some of the philanthropic stuff.

[1225] Different people reached out to try to help me. Did you say Prince?

[1226] Yeah, Prince.

[1227] Okay.

[1228] Yeah, yeah.

[1229] What is it like when Prince reaches out?

[1230] Life -changing, I will say.

[1231] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1232] The nerdy kid, Prince calls the nerdy kid.

[1233] From Paisley Park?

[1234] Yeah, literally he called.

[1235] He had to try to help me in, obviously, earlier with the green stuff, which he liked a lot and believed in.

[1236] But we'd never really spend any time together.

[1237] You always remember who's there for you when things go bad.

[1238] Yeah, yeah.

[1239] Al Gore called me after I resigned from the White House and he said, well then, I lost a much better job in the White House than you did.

[1240] So that was good perspective.

[1241] Donna Brazil called me and Prince called.

[1242] Bill Clinton sent me a letter and everybody else treated me like a leper.

[1243] It was unbelievable night and day.

[1244] When you're in the White House, your phone's ringing all the time.

[1245] It's buzzing.

[1246] You get Blackberry in those days.

[1247] and literally the next day I thought my phone was dead Right, you're calling AT &T like shut off my service Exactly I mean like literally Treat it like a leper But Prince called and he said This is Prince And I said hi he goes Is this Van Jones?

[1248] He says You're the most controversial man in the world right now Oh my God Hey If you give me a week to write this phone call I couldn't come out of that good And I said, well, for better, for worse, he goes, I think for the better.

[1249] I want you to come see me. Click.

[1250] Click.

[1251] I'm sending the Batmobile.

[1252] He literally just, I want you to come see me. He just hangs up.

[1253] Yeah, you figure it out.

[1254] Now, it's a block number.

[1255] Sure.

[1256] I have no idea how to call the guy back.

[1257] I'm like, now I'm like, am I like a loose thing or whatever?

[1258] 15 minutes later, somebody calls me and says, you know, this is so -and -so from the prince camp.

[1259] He said, you're supposed to come out here.

[1260] Do you need help?

[1261] I said, I don't even know where it is.

[1262] It's cold, right?

[1263] Drive till it's cold?

[1264] The prince was like that.

[1265] I would say I spent six or seven years with him after that, and before he passed away, and what I would say about him is he was the worst best friend you'd ever have.

[1266] He was the worst best friend.

[1267] In that, Prince was never there for you when you didn't need him.

[1268] Uh -huh.

[1269] When you didn't need him, he was never there for you.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] I got a TV show.

[1272] He didn't call.

[1273] Yeah, right.

[1274] The positive thing happened, he didn't call.

[1275] but if anything bad happened he was never not there if you had a bad day before you even knew you were having a bad day he's calling so he had this weird kind of sense of he wanted to be there for you when he figured nobody else would be when it counted when it counted and I have to assume you guys must have seen Idaida he was secretly a very shy person wasn't he you know shy is an interesting word he was very he was a little guy growing up sure sure in a place that that wasn't celebrated.

[1276] Right.

[1277] And he was artistic and creative and different.

[1278] He somehow found something in himself that was true to him.

[1279] I asked my, because he's 10 years old than me, I said, do you know that when you guys were tearing it up in Minneapolis and you were doing all the stuff you're doing and you're wearing mascara and pumps and all this stuff and you could still take somebody's wife and like a can of hairspray every day?

[1280] Exactly.

[1281] I said, you guys know, I said, did you know you were creating Bedlam in the high schools.

[1282] Like, you put up Prince's poster, you have to have a fight with your dad because if you were a guy, you think you were gay, if you were a girl, you would want to sleep with black guys.

[1283] And it was like, the whole thing was complete pandemonium.

[1284] Yeah.

[1285] I said, did you know that?

[1286] No, I didn't know that.

[1287] And I said, you were causing a lot of controversy.

[1288] He says, we were just trying to be ourselves.

[1289] I'll add, though, there's a very interesting chapter of Prince's life where he is on the road with Rick James.

[1290] Early.

[1291] And that's a pivotal moment in his life, I think.

[1292] Yeah.

[1293] Because I think he was competitive.

[1294] Yeah, he was.

[1295] And so you had Rick James, and he was opening for Rick James, and Rick James used to watch him, and he was pissed.

[1296] He's like, why is this little motherfucker got so much swagger?

[1297] He drove him nuts.

[1298] And I think Prince fed on that.

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] Well, absolutely.

[1301] I mean, Prince wanted to be the best in the world, everything he did, and I think he probably was the best in the world.

[1302] Yeah.

[1303] But he reached out to me, and so over those couple of years, I was able to find my way to try again, to try to make a difference.

[1304] it was the hardest time of my life because my kids were very little and you aren't guaranteed a second chance in this country.

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] I had kind of gone in some ways I would say from victory to victory in a certain respect.

[1307] Not I'm saying I won all the time.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] But there was always a sense of forward momentum that there was another chance and then suddenly you're a pariah.

[1310] And in Washington, D .C., if you lose a top job, people act like it's contagious.

[1311] Mm -hmm.

[1312] Like, I would walk on a subway car and people would literally go to the other end of the car.

[1313] They didn't want, they were afraid that Fox News was going to get a picture of me with them.

[1314] I mean, it was really funny.

[1315] No, I mean, it's like literally people are like they see you and they realize who you are.

[1316] Hey, man, don't stand next to me, man. I don't want people think we're talking or something.

[1317] Hey, brother, I'm telling you, I'm telling you that's what it was.

[1318] Yeah, yeah.

[1319] And it was nuts and it was tough.

[1320] You were COVID -patient one.

[1321] Exactly.

[1322] I was, and I was really patient zero for cancellation.

[1323] I was patient zero.

[1324] I was the first person that they took some shit totally out of context and they blew it up all over the place and I got canceled.

[1325] There was no, the term cancellation didn't exist then.

[1326] But it was just like this crazy thing had happened.

[1327] Look, everybody knew that Van was like a berserically radical in his 20s.

[1328] This guy's in his 40s, he's like passionate about the fact that what I loved about Obama, no red states, no blue states, the United States.

[1329] And that this was the administration, even if they hated us, Obama was willing to sacrifice his presidency, to sacrifice his majority in Congress, to pass a health care bill, to get doctors to babies in red states whose parents were calling him the N -word every day, that he was so committed to helping everybody.

[1330] Because, I mean, the red states were going to be the main beneficiary of Obamacare.

[1331] Oh, yeah.

[1332] By far.

[1333] But until he was willing to lose his majority, he was willing to risk everything, as mom.

[1334] mom had died of cancer.

[1335] He understood, and he wasn't going to be held back by the fact of this backlash was coming against him.

[1336] And I love that about him.

[1337] And I believe in that.

[1338] I believe in it then.

[1339] I believe in it now.

[1340] And to not get a chance to be a part of that administration, have to leave with my head held low, to have to turn that badge in and walk out of the door.

[1341] Not be along for the whole ride.

[1342] And not be here along for the whole ride and have to watch it from the sides.

[1343] And that's heartbreaking.

[1344] Yeah, it's tough.

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] So I have to have to had not nearly the world stage, but, you know, I spent two and a half years of my life making a movie, writing it, then directing it, and blah, blah, blah, came out tanked.

[1347] And so it was really back to the drawing board for me, just in an identity sense.

[1348] I was like, oh, I'm a writer -director, that's what I'm going to do for the next decade, blah, blah, blah, oh, no, you're not.

[1349] That's when I think I've never had more gratitude for my role as a dad.

[1350] Yeah, man. I mean, that saved me. I got to say, I don't have kids in that situation.

[1351] I don't know that I navigate out of it, but it was just the perfect amount of like, get real, get over yourself.

[1352] That's not important.

[1353] This thing is important.

[1354] And ultimately, I'm so grateful for that.

[1355] And I wonder if you must have been able to lean on that a bit in that time.

[1356] Yeah, my boys...

[1357] They're gorgeous, by the way.

[1358] I've seen them.

[1359] I think we've done a good job of keeping them out of harm's way.

[1360] Like, we don't put them on my social media page, that kind of stuff.

[1361] So people know I have kids, but they don't really know that much about it, which I like.

[1362] But for me, when Cabraal was born, my big boy was born, it was the first time I felt like I was on planet Earth.

[1363] Up until then, I'd been up in my head and I was doing this and I was doing that.

[1364] I was rushing around, blah, blah, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm a part of something.

[1365] Yeah.

[1366] I have a father and a mother and I have a child.

[1367] And I'm no longer just this projectile fired out of my parents' home into my own adventures.

[1368] I'm suddenly a part of something.

[1369] You're kind of the bridge now.

[1370] I'm the bridge, and these guys are going to be around, God willing, long after I'm gone, and I want to make sure that things work out for them.

[1371] Now I'm not just fighting against bullies and bad guys.

[1372] I'm fighting for them.

[1373] And I remember, as soon as I saw him, I was like, I can't remember not knowing this guy.

[1374] It's just like...

[1375] Oh, that's a great way to say.

[1376] You know what I mean?

[1377] It's like, this is the beginning of my life.

[1378] I don't know what I was doing 20 minutes ago, but whatever it was, it was stupid.

[1379] This is the beginning.

[1380] Well, as a daydreamer, as a fantasizer, as someone that lives in their head, there's a lot of future surfing.

[1381] And that experience definitely puts you in the now.

[1382] Yeah, exactly.

[1383] There's crying now.

[1384] Exactly.

[1385] As a diaper there.

[1386] Diapers and all that kind of stuff.

[1387] Yeah.

[1388] I think being a dad and I think raising black boys, all this stuff becomes very real.

[1389] I can imagine that you never feel bad for yourself.

[1390] It's not that you're not like a self -pidier.

[1391] But to then have this beautiful creature and to actually look at this beautiful creature and go, oh, my God, because his skin's black.

[1392] This is going to be a much different fucking ride.

[1393] And this kid, who I know, I know him on a cellular level, deserves much better.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] In a way that you might not even care about your own self.

[1396] Yeah.

[1397] We're very lucky that both the boys have done pretty well.

[1398] They pretty much stay out of trouble.

[1399] They're good kids.

[1400] But I remember telling Jana, I said, we're putting everything on these kids.

[1401] We're not like, oh, well, should they go to public school?

[1402] Look, whatever the best school is the public school, they're going there.

[1403] Best school is private school.

[1404] I'm not taking a risk for my politics on this guy.

[1405] I can.

[1406] Yeah, sure.

[1407] You know what I'm saying?

[1408] Right, right.

[1409] Different, different situations.

[1410] You can.

[1411] I'm like, I've got to give this guy every ace card I can give him.

[1412] Fuck out.

[1413] Every joker I can give him.

[1414] If I've got to go and, like, print up some ace cards, you know, real to give him.

[1415] Wash a Dean's card.

[1416] Yeah, whatever it takes.

[1417] And same for the little guy as well.

[1418] Like I said, these guys, they got to have a good running start because it's not going to be fair race for these guys.

[1419] And now, you know, the big guys time next year he'll be gone to college.

[1420] And I'll never forget, we put him on a bus, you know, D .C. area.

[1421] When he's five years old, going to kindergarten, and maybe a week later, I resigned from the White House.

[1422] So he's coming home from school.

[1423] And I'm crumbled up in bed, and he's not used to that.

[1424] Yeah.

[1425] He doesn't remember.

[1426] I asked him, I said, you remember when I was like, no, no, no, not really.

[1427] I'd rather not think of you that way.

[1428] But that's the tough.

[1429] The thing is when people go through all this stuff and people will love to cancel people and cancel people and cancel people and you don't understand.

[1430] There's a real human being that goes home to their family.

[1431] It's fun and games for you on Twitter.

[1432] It's fun and games for you on your podcast.

[1433] Fun and game for you, whatever.

[1434] It's, oh, well, this guy's the person everybody's taking a shit on today.

[1435] This is the woman everybody's got to prove that we're...

[1436] It's so fucking weak, can I just say?

[1437] Yeah.

[1438] To jump on.

[1439] Yeah, jump on the bandwagon.

[1440] Be an asshole or whatever.

[1441] And for you, it's just, hey, Today, everybody's talking shit about this person, let me get my licks in.

[1442] Well, that's what I was going to ask you, actually, when you're talking about Glenn Beck, have you ever had the perspective of like, oh, my God, do you know, man, they were just feeding the machine.

[1443] Now, I don't know.

[1444] It could have been totally personal.

[1445] But also, it could have been just people feeding this machine.

[1446] And then you're the victim of feeding this machine.

[1447] The guy's got to talk about something for an hour.

[1448] Well, actually, I've gotten to know him.

[1449] He's not a piece of shit.

[1450] And I respect him a lot more than I thought I would.

[1451] Uh -huh.

[1452] He thought, and again, how we talked to earlier, earlier, people get, you know, he thought that I was coming for him because an organization I had been a part of starting called colorofchange .org put up a petition saying because he had called Obama a racist that he should be fired.

[1453] Now, I had not been a part of colorofchange .org for years since like Hurricane Katrina.

[1454] And I'm now in the White House.

[1455] I have no idea what these guys are doing, but my name is still on the website as a founder.

[1456] All right.

[1457] So now this organizations firing at him, he looks up and he, he's, who's, who's color of change?

[1458] Van Jones, isn't this guy in the White House?

[1459] Holy shit, Obama's coming for me through Van Jones, through color of change, figure out who the hell of Van Jones is.

[1460] So he's firing back.

[1461] And then he sees that you're a part of the 9 -11 truth.

[1462] In fact, the weird thing is he never jumped on that.

[1463] Oh, he didn't.

[1464] Ironically, everybody else jumped on that.

[1465] He stayed with the Marxist.

[1466] black nationalist, all the stuff from my 20s.

[1467] And you supported someone that was incarcerated.

[1468] That was a hot button?

[1469] Yeah, sure.

[1470] Mamiya Abu Jamal with the Black Panther, I think, is unjustly, you know, incarcerated and still due to this day.

[1471] And he just beat the crap out of me every day on the news and kind of was the meat tenderizer for then when everything else started to move.

[1472] But I got a chance to sit down and talk with him.

[1473] It's amazing when you have that connection with somebody.

[1474] That was a big springboard for his career.

[1475] And it was also a big breakdown for my career.

[1476] He wouldn't be where he is if that hadn't happened.

[1477] Frankly, I would be where I am if it hadn't happened because if he hadn't come after me, I would have stayed in the administration and maybe I would be more plastic because there is something that happens to you in those positions and those roles where everybody's kissing your ass all the time where you do lose a little bit of your humanity and your humility.

[1478] I didn't just get humbled.

[1479] I got humiliated.

[1480] Yeah.

[1481] And I had to rebuild and come.

[1482] And so I think I have a little bit more of my humanity intact than a lot of people go through government.

[1483] And we said, I talked, and we came to an understanding about what he was going through at that point in his life.

[1484] He would have handled it differently.

[1485] Obviously, he disagrees with my politics, even to this day.

[1486] Sure.

[1487] That's fine.

[1488] Yeah, but he would have handled it differently.

[1489] And I would have hopefully, even if I thought it was the right thing to do to walk away, been able to, I hope, I don't know if it's true, I hope that I have something in myself now that's mind.

[1490] It's not referencing public success.

[1491] It's not referencing where I went to school.

[1492] It's not referencing my achievements.

[1493] At that time, I was like an Easter egg with all this kind of accomplishment painted on the outside and nothing on the inside.

[1494] So when I got smashed, I got smashed.

[1495] There was nothing else in there.

[1496] You rip away all that stuff and there's nothing.

[1497] My hope is that I have something in myself that is just me, no matter what, and my relationship to my faith and my belief that God loves us, period, and that we have purpose, period.

[1498] And even if you wind up homeless, you can help the next homeless person sit next to you.

[1499] You can always do something good.

[1500] And so that's really where I hope I've arrived.

[1501] But again, people meet you.

[1502] They say, hey, you're on TV.

[1503] You've got those cheekbones.

[1504] You must have a great life.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] And, you know, you work with Republicans.

[1507] you must have moderate politics.

[1508] You're seven years older than me. You look four years younger.

[1509] Well, I appreciate that.

[1510] Fuck you.

[1511] But everybody's got a story.

[1512] And if you know that everybody's got a story, you withhold judgment.

[1513] And this idea you cancel people, you destroy them.

[1514] The next morning, when you're not thinking about it anymore.

[1515] Oh, you're on to the next person.

[1516] You're on the next person.

[1517] You're on the next joke.

[1518] You're on the next stick.

[1519] But they're in their bed curled up with their five -year -old kid looking at them, wondering if their dad is going to be okay.

[1520] Yeah.

[1521] And you've got to make sure it's, worth it when we do this to people.

[1522] Fuck.

[1523] That's so true.

[1524] I'm so impressed that you sat down with him and now I'm embarrassed.

[1525] I call him a piece of shit.

[1526] I really do find him a little repugnant.

[1527] But anyways.

[1528] That's allowed.

[1529] It's allowed.

[1530] One of my family members has gone absolutely berserk where people have had to block them on email because they send emails that are like, dear infidels, it's crazy.

[1531] And I really, I attribute a lot of his gateway to Glenn Beck.

[1532] He became obsessed with Glenn Beck and then all of a sudden he's writing infidel.

[1533] Anyways, more importantly, because I think you and I have the same ache in our heart at the divide.

[1534] I think I got that from you when I met you last month.

[1535] And I think that's what I spoke on too, which is just like my personal take on it is the way out, in my opinion, is to first recognize people don't necessarily stand for something as much as they're terrified of some things.

[1536] They're actually united.

[1537] I think the vast majority of people in these two camps are united by the things they're afraid of.

[1538] So on the left, we're terrified of global warming, we're terrified of homelessness and kids being sick and kids, you know, these are the things we're afraid of.

[1539] And on the right, they're afraid of terrorism.

[1540] They're afraid the country's going to change into something that they don't recognize, that it wasn't their grandparents and that there's this 300 ,000 people at the border.

[1541] They feel like they're being invaded.

[1542] There's all these things.

[1543] In this last election cycle, I really felt like I just recognized like, oh, I get it.

[1544] These are two parties with two different sets of fears.

[1545] And so instead of me bludgeoning someone on the right over the head with the data of immigration, let's talk about what you're afraid of.

[1546] And let me really give a fucking steelman argument for why you're feeling afraid because I don't want anyone to feel afraid.

[1547] I recognize what it's like to be fearful.

[1548] Let's tend to that.

[1549] I just feel like if we can tend to that some way we can kind of start.

[1550] And you have a very specific approach, which I like, but it's not dissimilar, which is so many of these issues.

[1551] In fact, most of the issues are cutting right through this arbitrary mental construct of left and right.

[1552] And so I think drugs you spoke beautifully on, I was not in the hate Trump camp in the same way my peers were.

[1553] In that, I just kept checking in with, well, what's really changed?

[1554] You know, I kept kind of looking at the metrics.

[1555] I'm like, yeah, that guy's a bozo, but, you know, what's going on?

[1556] The one time where I was like, oh, he just shit the bet even for his party was when he made fun of Biden for having a son that was an addict.

[1557] I was like, oh man, even the people on the right that love them are like, no thanks.

[1558] Because every one of us has an addict in our family or are an addict like me. What are you talking about, left or eight?

[1559] Look, I think that for those of us who are on the left and who are progressive, the fear of fascism is real.

[1560] You know, the fear that having a white supremacist with power, it's just a nightmare for people.

[1561] And Trump kept...

[1562] playing with that.

[1563] Now, I don't think Trump is a white supremacist.

[1564] I think he's a racial opportunist.

[1565] I do too, which is an unpopular opinion.

[1566] Well, look, in order to be a white supremacist, you have to feel that white people are great and that people of color are not.

[1567] I think Trump thinks that Trump is great and everybody else sucks.

[1568] That's a very good observation.

[1569] Everyone's a piece of shit, but him.

[1570] So I think he's a racial opportunist, which in some ways is a lot worse and very, very dangerous.

[1571] but I understand the fear but for me people say how can you work with these you go to Appalachia to your point you work with coal miners Van Jones you work with the last time I went to jail I was marching with coal miners in a successful fight to get them their health care and pensions back I wasn't marching with Black Lives Matter last time I went to jail I was marching with coal miners but how can you do that they're Republican and you'll never change them will you do a Frommers guide of best jails in America just side note In your retirement, maybe?

[1572] I can do it.

[1573] I can do it.

[1574] Because I got to decide where I want to get arrested.

[1575] I could do it.

[1576] I would not recommend West Virginia, but I can do it.

[1577] But that whole thing, like, being, you're never going to change these people.

[1578] I said, no, no, no, you understand.

[1579] I'm not trying to change these people.

[1580] I'm trying to make sure that the situation doesn't change me. I don't want to become what I'm fighting.

[1581] I don't want to become hateful.

[1582] I don't want to become bitter.

[1583] I don't want to write off whole sections of the country.

[1584] I don't want to feed what I'm fighting.

[1585] I don't want to become what I'm fighting.

[1586] I believe in certain things.

[1587] I'm still a 2008, Barack Obama, hope and changer, no red states, no blue states, just the United States.

[1588] I'm not going to let anybody change me. I need Republicans, and Republicans need Democrats.

[1589] We need each other.

[1590] If you let it up to me as a Democrat, we'd be out of money real fast.

[1591] We'd be Cuba.

[1592] Yeah, I mean, we'd be out of, I mean, we'd be broke because I'd be like, hey, look, how are we going to feed all the children or whatever?

[1593] I need Republicans pushing back and saying, How much is this cost?

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] Who's going to pay for it?

[1596] Like all the things that they push back on.

[1597] And they need me to push back on, hey, well, what about the people who are left out?

[1598] It's that debate.

[1599] It's that back and forth that in a healthy...

[1600] It's discourse.

[1601] It's discourse.

[1602] Now, to the extent that you have people who are on the right who now are willing to throw away democracy because it's so concerned about the cultural war, that's a problem.

[1603] To extent you have people on the left who used to be about free speech and used to be about due process, who are willing to throw that out the door to be a part of the woke wars, that's a problem.

[1604] But I'm not going to let the mistakes on either side.

[1605] Of the shoulders, let's add.

[1606] That's really important to remember.

[1607] It's like I don't like when the right sums up the left by looking at the last 3 % of the communists.

[1608] Yeah.

[1609] Here's what I believe.

[1610] I'll say it with some authority.

[1611] Because I'm dealing with people in the streets, people in the suites.

[1612] I deal with Silicon Valley, Wall Street, Hollywood, Washington, D .C., and Appalachia and the Hood and the barrios, and the Native American Reservations and the border, I can say with some real authority, the problem is not what people think it is.

[1613] People think the problem is we have so many awful people in this country, usually in the other party or in the other racial group, and they're so awful that we can't get anything done.

[1614] They're evil.

[1615] Yeah, we have these evil, awful people in the other racial group, the other party, the other region, and we can't get anything done because these awful people.

[1616] I will tell you, there are some awful people.

[1617] It's true.

[1618] It's the smallest problem we have.

[1619] The biggest problem is we have all these awesome people in both parties, all races, all faith groups who just don't know what to do.

[1620] They just don't know what to do.

[1621] And if you gave them the opportunity to help somebody, they would run over you to do it.

[1622] If you gave them the opportunity to do something positive, they would do it.

[1623] But the problem is we don't give them that.

[1624] We just give them more reason to blame and be mad at somebody else.

[1625] And so we don't have an awful people problem so much as we have an awesome.

[1626] people problem.

[1627] And I'm focused on the awesome people.

[1628] I want to bring the awesome people together to help people get stuff done.

[1629] That's what my life is about.

[1630] I'm not going to be let the far left or the far right or anybody else changed me from that.

[1631] Because like I said, every time I've seen something work, it's been when you've had this unlikely mix of people, you know, a business guy and a rapper and a housewife and a priest.

[1632] How about that fucking picture of Trump and Kim Kardashian?

[1633] You're like, you're doing something with Kim, right?

[1634] in the documentary.

[1635] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[1636] So me and Kim Kardashian and Donald Trump and a bunch formerly incarcerated people and Ivanka and Jared, and we got 20 ,000 people by some counts out of federal prison through the first step back that Trump signed.

[1637] Trump signed the bill, handed me the pen in the Oval Office.

[1638] It's like weird stuff like that is the only time I've seen at work.

[1639] And so for me, you can put a gun in my mouth right now.

[1640] I'm never going to say anything different.

[1641] I can tell you if you have a real problem, if you have a little shitty problem, you can get it done with you and your roommate and the pamster in your back pocket.

[1642] But if you've got a real problem, the chances of you solving it by yourself with only people who look just like you, pray just like you, vote just like you, is zero.

[1643] If you got a real problem, you're going to need a whole different kind of coalition.

[1644] If you're poor, if you're in prison, if you're on drugs, if you've got a bunch of real problems, you're not saying, hey, only let the socialist come and help me. You will take help from wherever you can get it and you're going to need it because the level of help that's needed to deal with these issues is not locked up in one party or one racial group.

[1645] Brené Brown detailed this beautifully when she said, you know, she was in Houston during the floods from the hurricane and there were boats driving around and they were rescuing people.

[1646] And she said, I didn't hear one person ask who'd you vote for before they helped them in a boat.

[1647] And nor did I ask the people getting rescued.

[1648] They didn't ask who you voted for.

[1649] And this is your approach, as I understand it, which is like, let's first talk about something that we're both kind of devastated by.

[1650] Let's forget that other thing.

[1651] So you lost someone, you lost a kid to an opioid overdose.

[1652] You lost, you know, a daughter for the, let's start there.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] The documentary you're talking about, which is called the first step, which in some ways chronicles our successful effort to get Republicans and Democrats to come together during the Trump administration to pass legislation to let people out of jail.

[1655] And it happened.

[1656] And it was was so shocking to people that it's almost like it never happened.

[1657] I'm like, no, no, no, we got 87 senators.

[1658] You're right, because it doesn't fall into the narrative of either side.

[1659] We need a fucking third row here.

[1660] We got 87 U .S. senators, and would have been 88 of Lindsey Graham had gotten off the plane in time.

[1661] We had 87 U .S. senators in the middle of the Trump administration come together to pass criminal justice reform, and Trump signed the bill in the Oval Office, handed Van Jones a pen.

[1662] and it's like it went down the memory hole.

[1663] It's like it's just too weird.

[1664] So we have a documentary called The First Step to talk about it.

[1665] Kim Kardashian was a part of it, Jared Kushner, Ivanka Trump, Corey Booker, Kamala Harris.

[1666] It was like the craziest.

[1667] You interviewed Trump as well?

[1668] I didn't interview Trump.

[1669] I just work with him to get the bill signed.

[1670] Right.

[1671] In reference to the documentary, I saw that he was.

[1672] Well, he's in the documentary.

[1673] He is in the footage.

[1674] Yeah, yeah.

[1675] It's one of those things where some things you have to see to believe, but sometimes you have to believe to see.

[1676] if you don't believe that the pain of people at the bottom is so severe that even in the middle of Trump administration, Democrats, Republicans could link arms to do something to help the people in federal prisons.

[1677] You won't see it.

[1678] But it actually happened.

[1679] And we have a documentary that shows it.

[1680] But it doesn't fit the narrative.

[1681] Look, man, I've had a weird life.

[1682] Like, not that many people have got a chance to grow up on the edge of a small town in the rural South.

[1683] in the 70s when all the stuff that people were talking about was in our face or to go to an Ivy League school and come out and sue cops or work for Barack Obama or get a chance to work with Prince or get a Donald Trump or George W. Bush to sign legislation to help black people.

[1684] But I've done those things.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] I've experienced those things.

[1687] And so you can't get me to then turn around and act like it's not possible.

[1688] Yeah.

[1689] Or act like it's not, it's like it can't happen.

[1690] You're a victim of some success.

[1691] So people say, look, you're supposed to hate all these Republicans.

[1692] I'm like, well, reality is both political parties signed off on mass incarceration.

[1693] It was Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich.

[1694] It was Texas and California that built all these prisons.

[1695] I can't just come down on one party.

[1696] And, by the way, both political parties have been doing better on my issue.

[1697] I've been able to work with Republican governors and a Republican president as well as Democratic leaders and activists.

[1698] So I can't just praise one party.

[1699] You're praising the Republicans.

[1700] Oh my God.

[1701] You praised Donald Trump.

[1702] Yeah, the one time he did something good.

[1703] Now the 99 times he did something bad, I kicked his butt.

[1704] You can't praise him.

[1705] I said, you can't praise him when he's right.

[1706] Yeah.

[1707] You don't have integrity if you can't do that.

[1708] Yeah.

[1709] For me, I mean, I just appreciate being a part of this conversation and being a part of your podcast because I think trying to have real conversations, which is, I think, where you're just doing such a great job and being so open and so vulnerable about your own journey as a white guy, as an addict as a dad, like more of that stuff needs to happen.

[1710] And, you know, for me, I don't know what's going to happen.

[1711] I'm what's going to happen as country.

[1712] I know what's going to happen to me. All I know is I believe, and based on evidence, not based on just guessing, there's a lot more good in this country than bad.

[1713] There's a lot more good people in this country than bad.

[1714] And we're not giving the good people a shot.

[1715] In fact, we're punishing good people.

[1716] They want to reach out.

[1717] You get canceled for reaching out to a quote -unquote bad person more than a bad person.

[1718] And that's never going to get the problem solved.

[1719] And so Uncommon Ground is my podcast coming out about that.

[1720] And then we have the first step was the documentary about that.

[1721] Now, I'm halfway through the documentary.

[1722] I love it.

[1723] It's very, very well done.

[1724] Back to talking to the wrong people.

[1725] What is ironic is, of course, when Obama said, you know what, of course I will talk to Octimajad.

[1726] Is that who he was willing to talk to that the right was up in arms about?

[1727] And I remember thinking like, What plan includes talkings off the table?

[1728] I mean, that's a non -starter.

[1729] If you can't talk to someone with an opposing opinion, build a wall around your face.

[1730] Like, what are you going to do?

[1731] And so we were, of course, very supportive.

[1732] Yeah, of course, we're going to find out that there's one element of him that we find sympathetic?

[1733] And then our whole argument's going to have collapsed.

[1734] Is that what you're afraid of?

[1735] Is your opinion that shaky that you might find something about this person?

[1736] But then we did it when Trump said, I'm going to go meet Kim Jong -un.

[1737] I didn't give a fuck go meet that guy, you know, whatever.

[1738] But the people on the left were like, how could he go, me?

[1739] You know, this guy's about, and I'm like, everybody, we got to agree to some belief in talking to one another.

[1740] Well, the problem that happened to us during the Trump years was we were always on 10.

[1741] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1742] Every day.

[1743] Everything is existential.

[1744] Every day was the end of the republic.

[1745] Every tweet was the end of American democracy.

[1746] Everything that he did.

[1747] Because we said something to ourselves, which was, I think, very destructive.

[1748] We can't normalize him.

[1749] Well, once you sign up for an anti -normalization plan, that means you're a slave because then everything he does you have to react to.

[1750] And I just said, listen, if somebody's the President of the United States, that's now normal.

[1751] Now, here's what I'm going to do.

[1752] I'm not going to normalize myself being insane every day.

[1753] Like, I'm not going to do that.

[1754] I'm going to look and try to figure out from my constituency, the addicted, the convicted, the afflicted.

[1755] where are there cracks where I get something done for them?

[1756] If it's opportunity zones, I'll look into that.

[1757] Criminal justice, help for black colleges, I'll look into that.

[1758] Because here's what I know for sure.

[1759] It's hard to get anything done for that population, Democrats or Republicans.

[1760] We don't have a great track record of getting something done for people at the bottom, no matter who's in the office.

[1761] But I know this for sure.

[1762] No matter how much good we do with this bill or that bill, African Americans, on the whole, are the most, politically sophisticated group in Western civilization.

[1763] We went from property to president in five generations.

[1764] Very smart.

[1765] Financially, maybe not so smart all the time, but politically, very sophisticated.

[1766] And I knew for sure that we could get a few things done on criminal justice, on black colleges or whatever, and still the black community was going to say, thank you for those little marshals.

[1767] However, in your totality, we need a different president.

[1768] So we could, for the first time, get something good out of an administration, and at the same time, probably help to replace that administration.

[1769] In other words, let's be as sophisticated as a shit that we're trying to challenge.

[1770] And other people felt if Trump does anything good for black people, all the black people are going to somehow vote for him.

[1771] And I said, guys, we're not that stupid.

[1772] No one's giving them enough credit, anyone's enough credit.

[1773] I got to say, one of the things that doesn't really get talked about is black folks have to be more pragmatic.

[1774] Yeah.

[1775] They don't have the luxury to have an ideal, not listen to anybody else, not cooperate.

[1776] No, there's the North Carolina governor who turns out he went in blackface somewhere.

[1777] Oh, yeah, sure.

[1778] And our guy we interviewed, he was pretty vocally supportive of sticking with him.

[1779] Yeah, because they said, look, sure, the guy did blackface, but if you get rid of him, the next person also did blackface and the next person is a Republican.

[1780] Or yeah, maybe even worse, the guy didn't do blackface, but he fucking actually hates blackface.

[1781] People don't want to see you.

[1782] And so to be in a situation to be so disenfranchised that you kind of got to go like, well, fuck, I'll take this dude in blackface because it'll probably be more beneficial to me. Again, not being that way as kind of a luxury.

[1783] Look, like I said, the black community, most politically sophisticated community in Western civilization, not just the United States, we got Biden because black voters said, you know what, we love you, Bernie, but we know white people who don't live in Vermont a lot better than you do.

[1784] And this is not going to work out well.

[1785] And as much as we like all your policies and that type of stuff, we're going to give you Biden.

[1786] It wasn't white people who said Biden.

[1787] It was black people.

[1788] Look, guys, we know white people very well.

[1789] This is all the Democrat they can take.

[1790] They can't take the lesbian of color in the wheelchair with the market.

[1791] No, they're not ready.

[1792] And so again, that sophistication to say, and we're not even going to back a Cory Booker.

[1793] We're not even going to back a Kamala Harris.

[1794] We're even going to black one of our own because we understand that the white folks that we know are still so freaked out from Obama that they are not ready, we're going to give them Biden.

[1795] Now, that is politically sophisticated.

[1796] It's savvy.

[1797] It is.

[1798] Savvy at a very high order.

[1799] And I come out of that.

[1800] I come out of that kind of, look, I went to the far edges of leftism.

[1801] But my home base is just that good small town, small church, pragmatic.

[1802] Look, you can only fight people so much because you're going to see the same people to launch a mat next weekend.

[1803] You saw this weekend.

[1804] You got to find some common ground.

[1805] You got to know people's the name of people's kids.

[1806] You got to, even if you know there are races and they hate you, I tell you what, growing up in the rural South, and you blow a tire and you're sitting on the side of the road, white guy comes by, Confederate flag, gun rack in the back, pulls over, you're happy because that motherfucker is about to change your tire.

[1807] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1808] And then go home and say, hey, I just help an inward with their tire.

[1809] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1810] Stupid, this guy couldn't even change the tire.

[1811] Exactly.

[1812] Exactly.

[1813] And so when you grow up in the complexity of the reality of how this stuff works, it's like, you know, guys, you can't just sit in your little blue bubble and think you know everything and treat the red part of the country like, quote unquote, dumb Pakistan, that you know everything and they're all stupid.

[1814] And all you need to do is conquer them and convert them to the NPR religion and force them then some kale.

[1815] Hit them over the head with a biology book a thousand times.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] And that's how America's going to be better.

[1818] That's just not how it works.

[1819] And having grown up in the middle of country, I know better.

[1820] I do think that there's a privileged point of view, and I'm being privileged in that, like, it's special minorities in this country because my parents are the same and I grew up in Georgia.

[1821] And, yeah, during the election, everything, it was like, okay, who is the best bet?

[1822] Not who do we like.

[1823] Exactly.

[1824] Like, not even policy.

[1825] Just who's the best bet here?

[1826] What's the most rational, pragmatic way to go about it?

[1827] And yeah, it's such a different conversation that I have with my family than I have here with my girlfriends here.

[1828] Like, it's just because they can see it in a way that very liberal people can't.

[1829] I don't, or white, I don't know, like majority can't.

[1830] No, I'll say it.

[1831] Like, you have learned how to navigate a system.

[1832] So the dude with the Confederate flag pulls over, it's like, not ideal, but I'm going to take this tire change.

[1833] You were forced to learn to navigate a system that wasn't necessarily benefiting you.

[1834] And all minorities are because they got here.

[1835] They figured out a way to get here.

[1836] They figured out a way to be successful here.

[1837] That requires negotiating.

[1838] In compromise.

[1839] And so, yeah, there's a certain reality that is forced upon you when you're not growing up with all the benefits of being white and potentially rich and educating all these things.

[1840] They're not even used to a compromise.

[1841] What do you mean I wouldn't vote for who I most want?

[1842] That's the point of the election.

[1843] They would be very indignant about that.

[1844] Like, well, this isn't even a democracy if I'm not voting for the right.

[1845] But, yeah, anyone else who understands is going to go, yeah, I've got to get the person that's going to win.

[1846] Van Jones, you're radical.

[1847] I really have enjoyed talking to you.

[1848] And I'm glad that you weren't confused when I came up to you.

[1849] You were just more panic that you maybe had missed an appointment.

[1850] I'm glad we could put that to bed in my mind.

[1851] Well, no, it's good.

[1852] It's good.

[1853] That's the name of the documentary.

[1854] Yes.

[1855] And right now, we're still looking for a distributor.

[1856] Okay, I'll do it.

[1857] I'm proud of it and I feel like the one thing I think it's good about the moment that we're in is that I used to have to spend a lot of time convincing people that there was a problem.

[1858] Yeah, yeah.

[1859] I used to have to spend, like, whether it was climate, whether it was race, whether it was criminal justice, police.

[1860] I no longer have to convince people there's a problem.

[1861] In fact, the opposite.

[1862] I got to convince people there's a solution.

[1863] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1864] Because people are now so convinced there's a problem that they don't know what to do.

[1865] And, you know, I'm proud to be a part of the Dream Corps where we've got programs on poverty and prisons and pollution and that kind of stuff where we're bringing people together across these different lines where we're getting stuff done.

[1866] We're putting some wins on the board.

[1867] And that's what keeps you going.

[1868] But it's good to be able to talk.

[1869] And like I said, we got a lot of smart people.

[1870] We don't have a lot of heart people.

[1871] Yeah.

[1872] It's going to take smart plus heart.

[1873] And that's what I think you guys are trying to do.

[1874] And I'm glad to be a part of it.

[1875] And tell me the name of your podcast one last time.

[1876] It's called Uncommon Ground.

[1877] And it launches in October on Amazon.

[1878] Wonderful.

[1879] So on Amazon in October, on Common Ground, please check it out.

[1880] As you just heard, Van has a beautiful perspective on so many things.

[1881] Thanks so much, man. Really great seeing you again.

[1882] Thank you.

[1883] Thank you very much.

[1884] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Badman.

[1885] Are we rolling?

[1886] Yep.

[1887] I was thinking about getting ABR tattooed on me. Oh my God.

[1888] That's so fun.

[1889] Like just hidden somewhere in another tattoo.

[1890] I love that.

[1891] Will that be fun?

[1892] Should I get that too?

[1893] Oh my God, that would be great.

[1894] You know, I'm going to get a crow.

[1895] And I'm going to have the crow, because I saw this really cool picture of a crow.

[1896] I've been looking at trillion pictures of crows and paintings of crows.

[1897] And there's this, I assume it's kind of famous because it came up a lot, a picture of a crow.

[1898] And in its beak, it has a little red ball.

[1899] And it looks really cool.

[1900] Because you know, they pick things up, and they're really clever.

[1901] I'm thinking that I might have a cherry in his mouth.

[1902] I love that.

[1903] Mm -hmm.

[1904] Cherry for one.

[1905] Great question.

[1906] For your asshole, Rob.

[1907] I feel like getting one is a big deal.

[1908] Getting my first one would be a big deal.

[1909] And I just don't know yet if I want to have tattoos or not have tattoos.

[1910] Here's what I've told many people, and I am not pro or anti -tattoo.

[1911] One thing I do want to clear up, because I get this comment occasionally.

[1912] And the comment is always like, why don't you fucking stop being a patriarch and let your wife get tattoos?

[1913] Because I believe at some point, Kristen said in some interview, that I don't like girls with tattoos.

[1914] I'm just not dated girls with tattoos.

[1915] Well, Brie had a little one, but whatever.

[1916] And I always respond, like, I don't let or not let her do any fucking thing.

[1917] So just for the record, I've not declared anyone should or she can get tattoos.

[1918] But when people are thinking about getting tattoos and they really want one, and I can tell that.

[1919] But they're nervous about its permanence.

[1920] What I tell them is that you'll see it for the first week.

[1921] Yeah.

[1922] And that's it.

[1923] You will never think about it again.

[1924] It's so weird.

[1925] You would imagine that you're going to always be conscious of this thing on you, and you're just not, you're as conscious of it as you are your thumb currently.

[1926] Right.

[1927] You just know that that's there, and that's the end of your thoughts.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] If any part of your analysis involves your fear of regret, I don't believe you'll regret it.

[1930] I just don't know if I want to be a person that has had to yes yet.

[1931] Of course.

[1932] Ding, ding, ding, art. So I had a field trip today.

[1933] I went to Anne Mansour's house.

[1934] And her house.

[1935] Yes.

[1936] In France?

[1937] Her house is here in Los Angeles.

[1938] Okay.

[1939] Local artist.

[1940] Uh -huh.

[1941] And I got to see a lot of her art. It was incredible.

[1942] She was so many great pieces.

[1943] And I was getting kind of flummox because I, like, want a lot of them.

[1944] Mm -hmm.

[1945] And I got to meet her, and she's so lovely and nice and kind and helpful.

[1946] And she went to Immaculate Heart.

[1947] And I said, oh, Dax is thinking about it.

[1948] about maybe sending his children there.

[1949] Yeah, the atheist Dax is going to send his girls to a Catholic school.

[1950] I do think they're, like, they're strict.

[1951] But I'd love it if one of my girls got kicked out of Catholic school.

[1952] Yeah.

[1953] It was great.

[1954] But then they just have to go to a school that they could just go to originally then.

[1955] Yeah, but it's a story.

[1956] Got kicked out of Catholic school.

[1957] Okay.

[1958] She was lovely, and I was so happy to meet her in person.

[1959] Let's back up.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] Because you seemed confused by me saying that?

[1962] Or you don't understand what I'm saying.

[1963] let's put it this way you meet two gals and one of them says i got kicked out of catholic school in 10th grade one gal says nothing i went to catholic school which one are you more interested in or not i don't have that like you have i don't have a thing where i'm like oh they're bad i'm interested rebels i like i'm not bad and i think i'm interesting yeah i like rebels i think it's like there's a story there You went there and nothing happened There's no story there You got kicked out Well I bet there's a story coming Yeah that you need a lot of attention Is probably the story I can pretty much wrap that up No I don't know There's a million reasons why people can get kicked out of schools But and sure I'd be curious to know why My mama got kicked out as she told In here From blowing up a typewriter And so did Cecily he's wrong She got kicked out Yeah And I do like her very much So anyway, it was just full circle.

[1964] It was lovely.

[1965] I'm buying another piece.

[1966] Wonderful.

[1967] How fun.

[1968] It was really fun and it was really special.

[1969] And the arm trees gave me that because they did.

[1970] They did.

[1971] And it was lovely.

[1972] Okay.

[1973] Van.

[1974] Van Jones.

[1975] This was a fun convo.

[1976] I've been a fan of van.

[1977] Sure, a van fan.

[1978] For a long time.

[1979] Isn't it funny when one thing I thought of, when I left that interview was, to him, the backlash against him is obviously very loud and he's very aware of it.

[1980] I had no idea there's a backlash against him.

[1981] Like, and it just reminded me to remember when I think the world's out to get me, like, you know, it probably feels that way to me and it's probably not a thing.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] Well, even you were saying the other day about Chappelle, like there's this whole thing now against Chappelle because of the new special.

[1984] And I was like, what?

[1985] I'm like, I didn't know.

[1986] Right.

[1987] Yeah.

[1988] And I love that he said in the special.

[1989] yeah, I'm not too worried because Twitter's not a real place.

[1990] And to hear it said so plainly.

[1991] I was like, that's right.

[1992] It is not a real place.

[1993] Yeah, so true.

[1994] Oh, I had people.

[1995] So I posted a picture of Charlie was changing attire.

[1996] And so I was fucking with him and I got behind him and I was holding his hamstrings and stuff.

[1997] So I posted that picture.

[1998] It's fun.

[1999] Of course, 99 .99 .999 people said that was funny.

[2000] And then like I had three people like, you're a homophobe.

[2001] And I was like, first and foremost, I'm not making.

[2002] a gay joke.

[2003] I'm making a joke.

[2004] I'm making him being weak.

[2005] Now, if you've associated that with being gay, that's on you.

[2006] I'm saying he can't even handle changing attire.

[2007] Who would want to be, you know, embarrassed like that that he can.

[2008] That's what the joke is.

[2009] You were helping him in the picture.

[2010] You weren't, maybe people were saying that you were fucking him.

[2011] Yeah, but that's on them.

[2012] And the caption makes the joke incredibly clear, which is this guy's frustrated, the way to make him feel independent and blah, blah, blah, is to do this.

[2013] the joke is blatantly clear, you've decided to make it a homophobic joke.

[2014] Yeah.

[2015] And now you're yelling at me about it.

[2016] Yeah.

[2017] That's not what's happening.

[2018] But don't focus on the point zero zero one percent who said it.

[2019] We're on the topic of people being mad on Twitter and Instagram.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] Like what Chappelle said, like who cares?

[2022] Like it's not.

[2023] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2024] Okay, we talked about accidental courtesy that doc.

[2025] We couldn't remember his name.

[2026] I know.

[2027] I got to commit that to memory because, but that dog has come up 35 times.

[2028] Daryl Davis.

[2029] Daryl Davis.

[2030] And you know what?

[2031] We should fucking have Daryl Davis on.

[2032] I would love to.

[2033] Wobbywob.

[2034] A little note.

[2035] Give him a call.

[2036] Oh, cookies.

[2037] Cookies are everywhere now online.

[2038] Oh, they are?

[2039] Haven't you noticed that?

[2040] Oh, you mean asking your cookie preference?

[2041] It's not edible cookies.

[2042] They passed regulations for it that require it from sites.

[2043] They do, but these tricky motherfuckers, this is what pisses me off so much about it.

[2044] So they basically say, you've now got to give people the option of not having their info sold.

[2045] Right.

[2046] Which I agree with.

[2047] Of course we should have that.

[2048] Right.

[2049] But then they make the menu so complicated.

[2050] They literally label it.

[2051] Like, one will go, do you not want to be part of advertising?

[2052] No. And then the next one goes, do you not want to?

[2053] So, like, you would think you're going to be hitting, you know, xing out all the ones you don't want.

[2054] But they're worded opposite every other one.

[2055] Like, there's so much trickery.

[2056] It's very confusing.

[2057] You know what the default should be?

[2058] You can't sell my shit.

[2059] Exactly.

[2060] And then I'll, I'll go to a click -through menu if I want you to.

[2061] sell my shit.

[2062] I agree.

[2063] I'm pissed.

[2064] And you have to like click on it and then check different things.

[2065] And then you just say, sure.

[2066] Ugh.

[2067] Yeah.

[2068] What assholes.

[2069] Did you finish the doc?

[2070] No. I want to say I'm halfway through.

[2071] Oh, you're watching an interesting documentary right now.

[2072] This isn't a fact.

[2073] Yeah, way down, I think it's called, on HBO Max.

[2074] Yeah.

[2075] About a megachurch leader.

[2076] Yeah.

[2077] This woman who, you know, somehow she has a weight loss program that involves redirecting your love for food to love of the Lord.

[2078] And it's bonkers, as they all are.

[2079] And yet, like, I love to the truth of some of the people in there.

[2080] Like, they, they recognize her as, you know, having been ultimately destructive.

[2081] But they'll say, like, this is the best eight years of my life, which I like.

[2082] And that's what's fucking tricky.

[2083] Like, this person was a very self -serving person.

[2084] And, you know, she marries this bozo.

[2085] I mean, absolute gold -digging bozo.

[2086] And she elevates him to a preacher, basically.

[2087] and he doesn't know one fucking thing about Christianity.

[2088] The whole thing is just fraudulent.

[2089] And yet, someone can have a wonderful life -changing experience from the whole thing.

[2090] So, you know, I've got to check myself.

[2091] It's weird.

[2092] Or the Rajneeshis.

[2093] Like many of those Rajanisyses, they stuck with it in some other form.

[2094] And that was a great part of their life.

[2095] That's true.

[2096] We watched 60 Minutes and you thought this college was a cult, but it just wasn't.

[2097] Well, it's my opinion that they're culty elements, and it's your opinion that they aren't.

[2098] But I don't think you know.

[2099] Well, would we agree that cults have leaders?

[2100] Cults always have a charismatic leader at the center of it.

[2101] Conventionally, yeah.

[2102] But I think you can have leaders that aren't the sole leader.

[2103] Like there's a fitness cult and there's no one at the center besides the person who created it.

[2104] But that person isn't the leader.

[2105] But there are leaders within it that have emerged.

[2106] Some of the instructors are like people are just like.

[2107] they take everything as doctrine.

[2108] So, you know, I think there can be things that are culty that are...

[2109] I think what makes something a cult is that there's something nefarious about it, that it is ultimately servicing an individual and that money is being extracted from the parishioners or sexual favors.

[2110] Like, that's what makes it a cult to me. So if it doesn't have any of those elements...

[2111] But you've said Groundlings is a cult?

[2112] It is a cult, and it had leaders and they took your money.

[2113] But it wasn't nefarious.

[2114] It wasn't nefarious, no. But also, I don't think the Greenleys is actually a cult.

[2115] I think Jim Jones is a cult.

[2116] I think the Rajneeshis weren't a cult.

[2117] I think, you know.

[2118] Cult -like, I said.

[2119] Yeah, I'll flippantly say things are culty.

[2120] And I think that's what you're saying about it.

[2121] No, I'm saying, yeah, the fitness place had cult -like, it was cult -like.

[2122] Yeah, but like, so they have a cult expert in this documentary.

[2123] And he is actually defining what makes a cult.

[2124] One of them is, like, cutting off communication with family members.

[2125] Like, there's just all these standard criteria for a cult.

[2126] And, yeah.

[2127] I get that.

[2128] They want to isolate you.

[2129] They have to have some strong statement that rejects conventional wisdom.

[2130] Well, I think this, I think that school is that.

[2131] It's definitely, like, take this path instead.

[2132] That's much different than the conventional path.

[2133] Right.

[2134] What we're saying, there was an episode of 60 Minutes.

[2135] There was about a segment about a college in California.

[2136] California, two -year college.

[2137] And I guess after this conversation, you're right.

[2138] It's not a cult, but I do think it's cult -like.

[2139] I think you could say it's radical.

[2140] That would I totally would agree with you.

[2141] It's radical.

[2142] Mm -hmm.

[2143] Yeah.

[2144] That it is.

[2145] It's like you've got to wake up at 5 a .m. and milk cows before you go to school.

[2146] You've got to tend land.

[2147] You've got to do the irrigation.

[2148] You're supposed to do 20 hours of labor.

[2149] Yeah.

[2150] The students run the whole thing.

[2151] They vote on everything and set.

[2152] They make the food.

[2153] Yeah.

[2154] So it's definitely radical.

[2155] Yeah.

[2156] But anytime there's like a big group of people with group think, I'm wary of that.

[2157] Me too.

[2158] But it was a good segment.

[2159] I think too, cults generally have an enemy.

[2160] You know, they define themselves in opposition to either, you know, a governmental force like these sovereign citizen people or, you know, like there's an adversary in their story.

[2161] consumerism.

[2162] I would say that is the case at this college, that they're actively against new age youngdom, like phones in people's hands and the way we operate normally as teenager or young college kids.

[2163] That's probably what informs your opinion.

[2164] So my opinion of what they're telling the kids to do seems probably very beneficial for a finite period of time.

[2165] Yeah, I think that's right.

[2166] Like to step away from all the technology and to do physical labor and feel what that feels like with your body.

[2167] So I guess I'm in favor of what they're recommending.

[2168] And I don't see it in any way as destructive.

[2169] There's no way waking up at 5 and milk and cows is destructive to anyone.

[2170] So I think just because I agree with all the radical things that they're proposing, I don't see it as problematic.

[2171] I get that.

[2172] It was fun, though.

[2173] We had a lot of fun debating whether or not it was a cult while we were watching it.

[2174] You were calling the cowboy.

[2175] You were calling them a professor.

[2176] And some of the teachers had family members there.

[2177] You know, they lived there with their families.

[2178] And you were saying that the children were professors.

[2179] It's like anytime there's a kid professor at your college, it's not a good place.

[2180] I don't care.

[2181] If it makes those people happy, great.

[2182] I don't care.

[2183] I wouldn't choose to go there and I don't have to go there.

[2184] So that's it.

[2185] There you go.

[2186] That's it.

[2187] Those are all the facts.

[2188] Yeah, there really weren't much.

[2189] There weren't any facts.

[2190] Again, Van comes with his own facts, you know.

[2191] Yeah, yeah.

[2192] He's potentially who you'd be referencing when pointing out the truth about something else.

[2193] Exactly.

[2194] Yeah.

[2195] Well, I love you.

[2196] I love you.

[2197] Bye.

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