Giant Bombcast 03-03-2011 (GDC 2011)

[0] Everyone, this is Jeff Gerstmann from GiantBomb .com, and you're listening to our GDC podcast.

[1] This is the second of our two podcasts recorded at Game Developers Conference 2011.

[2] Back in our office, back in the bar, and this was originally recorded on Thursday.

[3] That's March 3rd?

[4] The 2nd, March 2nd, 2011.

[5] And again, we packed the bar full of guests, probably even more than we had the night before.

[6] more people off mic than there were on, I think, and you'll probably hear a fair amount of that as the night goes on.

[7] This is a noisy, noisy podcast.

[8] I spent some time cleaning it up, EQing it, compressing it, trying to gate out some of that background noise, but I think you'll hear as the time wears on as we get closer and closer to the end.

[9] The guys in the background get more and more restless and threaten to overtake the actual discussion.

[10] So expect some of that.

[11] It'll get a little noisy.

[12] Probably hard to make out some of that stuff.

[13] But there you have it.

[14] It was a very rowdy evening.

[15] And I hope you enjoy it.

[16] Here's the podcast.

[17] Jeff Gerstmann.

[18] This is Giant Bomb's GDC podcast, day two of two.

[19] Let's get that right out of the way here.

[20] This will be our final GDC podcast.

[21] We've got a new cavalcade of superstars here.

[22] Why don't we start all the way to the end?

[23] I want you to introduce yourself, say your name, what you do.

[24] My name is Jeremiah Salaska.

[25] I'm the CEO and creative director of Fissel.

[26] Awesome.

[27] Yeah.

[28] I've been wondering how to pronounce that.

[29] My name is Ben Gilbert, and I am a writer for joystick .com.

[30] Yeah, you are.

[31] Yeah.

[32] I'm Brad, and I work here.

[33] Get the fuck out.

[34] I'm John Bellamy, or Cowboy, as many people know me. I'm a programmer at Naughty Dog.

[35] Atta Boys, president of Beefy Media.

[36] Oh, president.

[37] Yes.

[38] And CEO.

[39] And founder.

[40] Do you miss your name in the credits like nine times?

[41] No, I put myself first, ahead of anyone else.

[42] Somebody made you don't know Jack.

[43] That's what I would do.

[44] Next.

[45] Hey, my name is John, and I work for Disney.

[46] That's funny.

[47] Why is that?

[48] I'm John.

[49] I'm a Capricorn.

[50] Next.

[51] I'm also John, and I work for Harmonix.

[52] Okay.

[53] I'm Jeff.

[54] I work here.

[55] Sweet.

[56] In this basement.

[57] You missed it.

[58] I set it up.

[59] Tee these things up.

[60] So we're back.

[61] Another day at GDC.

[62] Another set of guests here.

[63] The thing that we keep asking people around the field is what are people really getting out of GDC this year?

[64] Jeremiah, you've been showing off a game most of the time, right?

[65] Yeah, that's right.

[66] Hybrid, our new title, which is a shooter.

[67] People are really kind of weirded out that it's a shooter because we're known for Scribblenauts.

[68] Do you hit Y and then have to enter words like headshot?

[69] Exactly.

[70] The funny thing is zombie headshot.

[71] We're not going there.

[72] A lot of people don't know there's more guns in Scribblenauts than there is in Hybrid, right?

[73] It's true.

[74] Factual statements.

[75] So have you been basically like up in a suite kind of demoing the game the whole time?

[76] This is actually the first GDC where I haven't seen a panel.

[77] I've been literally in a room locked and changed to a desk.

[78] It's been kind of the same for us.

[79] I haven't gotten to see any panels at all.

[80] Yeah, it sucks.

[81] But it's good.

[82] It's good.

[83] I mean, it's for hybrid.

[84] Cool.

[85] And hybrid sounds like it's really cool.

[86] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[87] Hybrid, it's a different kind of shooter.

[88] It's a third -person shooter.

[89] But instead of actually controlling where you move, you have this thing called combat -focused movement.

[90] That's our buzzword for tonight.

[91] Remember that?

[92] Combat -focused movement.

[93] Sponsored by the letter A. No, I don't know.

[94] And the whole point is that when we kind of worked on it, we were kind of looking at how real soldiers work, right?

[95] And we're saying, you know, real soldiers really don't do the whole circle strafe with a shotgun.

[96] you know, the way that we do in multiplayer.

[97] And so we're like, well, how can we kind of mimic that and, you know, do that in our game in a multiplayer mode?

[98] So we basically said, well, screw just moving with the left stick.

[99] Let's just actually just select cover and press A and just go there, right?

[100] So that's kind of how it is.

[101] It's kind of this kind of point and click thing almost.

[102] You just basically...

[103] Like, just flick the stick, press A, and you go there.

[104] And so, while you're going there, you can actually, you know, look in any direction and still shoot and stuff.

[105] That's why it's called combat -focused movement, because you're focused on the combat.

[106] And so, a lot of people, you know, I mean, this is the first time we've shown it off, and a lot of people are really digging it.

[107] So, they're like, at first, before, they're like, really?

[108] You know, you got this on my generic shooter.

[109] I don't get this.

[110] You know what I mean?

[111] And after it, they're like, okay, this is innovative and different.

[112] It's very different.

[113] Because, you know, I mean, a lot of people are like, oh, I've seen a million shooters.

[114] Yeah, exactly.

[115] I mean, when you would come out and said ahead of time, like, yeah, we're working on this game hybrid, and it's a shooter.

[116] I think a lot of people were like, do I draw the guns?

[117] There's no other shooters.

[118] Do I have to speed in pictures of myself?

[119] Yeah, we're saying it's innovative.

[120] We're like, connect?

[121] No, no, no. We can be innovative.

[122] Why not challenge the tropes that are in video games?

[123] Why do you have to use left stick to move?

[124] Why?

[125] Who says you have to?

[126] Just because you've never tried it before doesn't mean it's not awesome, right?

[127] I played the game, and I can vouch for everything that he's saying, but there was definitely a record scratch moment when he was demoing it of like, wait a minute, you don't move your guy?

[128] But yeah, you sit down and play it, and it's very intuitive.

[129] You guys have given a nice snappiness to the control design.

[130] Cool.

[131] How about you, Ben?

[132] You've been on the panel, beat, looking at stuff all day?

[133] Kind of.

[134] Are you in suites seeing actual games?

[135] Yes, yes, to both of those things.

[136] All of those things are happening.

[137] So what's been the standout stuff for you the past few days?

[138] Well, everything was pretty good.

[139] I liked Hybrid a lot, I saw that.

[140] And I think the biggest standout was probably where John and I just came from right before this, was Swery's Deadly Premonition panel, which was just batshit crazy, like you would expect, totally.

[141] I think John's got a pretty great story for you.

[142] coming up about the panel.

[143] I think Patrick over there just walked in.

[144] It was at the panel as well.

[145] I didn't get the email in time, but we got an email from Tad, who's been translating for Swearer on the trip.

[146] He wanted to borrow the deer head with the...

[147] He wanted to borrow Luchadier.

[148] Luchadier does not leave the parentheses.

[149] Yeah, Luchadier, he gets violent when you get him out there.

[150] It gets bad fast.

[151] It would have fit in perfectly with that panel, though.

[152] It's right in line with a video game postmark.

[153] He did end up taking some pictures with it and posting those on Twitter, which was pretty cool.

[154] Brad, I was with you most of the day.

[155] What part of hanging out with me was the coolest?

[156] The part where we ate the sandwiches was pretty good.

[157] And then sat in those chairs for another hour and a half.

[158] That was probably the best.

[159] I can't remember, again, just like last night, what we can talk about because everything's got some kind of embargo on it.

[160] Well, we can talk about all that same stuff from Batman that we've already seen.

[161] We already talked about it on the podcast last week.

[162] Batman continues to look good.

[163] Yeah, there's like 10 seconds at the end of it that the show that was different, and that's the part we can't talk about until next week sometime.

[164] But we shot an interview for that, and that'll be up.

[165] Played some Mortal Kombat.

[166] I continue to enjoy playing Mortal Kombat.

[167] I know you're fucking shocked.

[168] Yeah.

[169] What else?

[170] That's...

[171] That was a full day.

[172] Yeah, so you can see why we're exhausted.

[173] It's been rough.

[174] It's been rough.

[175] The sandwich took a long time to get here.

[176] There was bacon on it, and there was something else on it, and I said no onion relish.

[177] And they added LSD instead.

[178] Yeah, so as you can see...

[179] Exhausting!

[180] Three giant mom stars.

[181] Cowboy, how's your day been?

[182] You gave your talk today, right?

[183] Yeah, I flew up to Just Talk Shop.

[184] I gave a programming talk on our animation system for Uncharted 1 and Uncharted 2.

[185] So that was really cool.

[186] Just got to sort of really open about the technology we do.

[187] We're not really secretive about any particular approach we have.

[188] And so we were afforded these nice opportunities just to come up and just like, no, this is totally how we do it.

[189] What do you think?

[190] What do you feedback?

[191] The best part of my day is right after the talk.

[192] Everyone comes up, they have questions, like, what about this, and how do you do this?

[193] And like, well, we do this, and then...

[194] Just being able to meet and talk to those other developers is great.

[195] Was it a lot of developers from other established companies or students looking to get in?

[196] It was like a 50 -50 split, an even mix.

[197] I got to talk to a guy who worked at Havoc, and then I talked to a student who just wanted to break in.

[198] They both had questions.

[199] They both wanted to know more detail about what was going on.

[200] So how many resumes did you get at the end of it?

[201] Exactly, right?

[202] To be fair, I solicited resumes.

[203] We are hiring.

[204] Okay.

[205] I got all cards from everybody.

[206] Feel free.

[207] Like I said, if people want to know, do you have a job for this kind of position?

[208] I do this kind of program.

[209] Really, what Naughty Dog cares about is just step up to the plate.

[210] If you feel you're ready for it, if we like you, we will find a job for you.

[211] That makes working at the company really cool.

[212] We really like all our programmers.

[213] If we like you, we'll make room.

[214] I'm really good at smiling into a camera and eating sandwiches.

[215] Is that...

[216] We'll make that work.

[217] We got a sandwich room.

[218] There's an NPC character with your name on it for the next game.

[219] I imagine when you're revealing...

[220] details about the process of a game like uncharted or uncharted 2 like people probably come out of the woodwork like okay wait a minute that game was a huge seller like was reviewed really well and was awesome yes so i i'm going to find out everything i possible i don't i think last year we even went to some of the post -mortem talks for that some of that stuff and had that kind of glazed over like this is way too technical for my did you have any lines of code in any of your slides or i had a lisp code in my slides and i think that might have scared some people off the guys that shouldn't be there out early on, right?

[221] You put those up front in the stack.

[222] The other thing is when we start talking about our technical processes and our technical implementations...

[223] people find that they're not actually that complicated.

[224] We're not doing anything that special or that really crazy or off the beat.

[225] What really, I think, sets us apart when we go to make a game like Uncharted 2 is just the fact that we're willing to take a technical risk, and if we think a system will be cool, we'll go ahead and implement it.

[226] So we just do more.

[227] We do more implementations.

[228] Dude, I don't even know what Lyft's code is.

[229] I don't.

[230] Does anybody else hear to you guys?

[231] It's a program.

[232] You're the developer.

[233] I know it's a language, but I don't know anything else about that.

[234] Ice tea.

[235] It's a program language from the 1950s.

[236] That's incredible.

[237] It's a very old...

[238] It can pile up real nicely and, you know, it keeps it hood.

[239] 78 ,000 people like this.

[240] It's all about the parentheses.

[241] You have more parentheses to get it done.

[242] That's what I thought everyone was saying.

[243] What's it called?

[244] Lisp.

[245] Lisp.

[246] Fuck you guys.

[247] Exactly.

[248] Thank you for saying it for me. Adam, what have you been doing for the past two days other than drinking in the lobby of a hotel?

[249] That's kind of what we do now.

[250] No, it's been different for me because this is the first time in the last three years.

[251] Apparently I did find out that when you don't work at a publisher, it's very difficult to get a talk approved.

[252] So the talk that we submitted, I mean the talk that we did submit.

[253] The subject was Johnny P's story hour.

[254] No, it wasn't.

[255] You had me on that panel.

[256] Chris, Charlie, Mike, Mike, me, and Johnny P. They want to know all the crazy stories, the backstories.

[257] And that got denied.

[258] Was he on the panel?

[259] They thought there would be no takeaways.

[260] No, he was just a slide of him sweating or shirtless on the back.

[261] Thank you.

[262] No, it's been good.

[263] A lot of meetings this time.

[264] So at DICE, three weeks back, we met mostly with publishers.

[265] We've got a couple games in development right now that we'd love to talk about right now.

[266] So this time it was more talking with the different external outsource partners and developers because we do work with a bunch of IPs.

[267] We're looking to make games.

[268] And so just catch up with everyone.

[269] I mean, it's been a while since I was at Capcom meeting with developers.

[270] So it's great to see what everyone's been doing, especially with all the mobile and social stuff going on.

[271] And my voice is almost shot.

[272] You can totally talk about that stuff.

[273] They'll edit it out.

[274] I mean, I can just talk about it.

[275] Jeff, shadow me for a day.

[276] Day in the life of bad boys.

[277] Why don't you explain the Tron glove that everyone finds so intimidating?

[278] The Tron drinking glove was busted out last night in our suite, and it helps me consume my alcohol.

[279] The colder it is, the better, the more power I get.

[280] And it looks really effeminate, too.

[281] It just transports you right to the grid.

[282] Yeah.

[283] Speaking of the grid, Johnny.

[284] Oh, shit.

[285] What have you been up to the past few days?

[286] You're still working for Disney, right?

[287] First of all, let's do an employment checkup.

[288] Are you still employed?

[289] Yes, I'm still employed.

[290] Fantastic.

[291] We had people actually asking us, saying, oh, is Johnny okay?

[292] Is Johnny okay?

[293] No way he's still on a job.

[294] It was so funny because at Disney, people were like, it's so funny.

[295] There's this message about how propaganda closed down, and the comments are like, does John still have a job?

[296] So, yes, I do.

[297] Fortunately...

[298] And I imagine all the guys in propaganda were stoked to see that.

[299] No, those guys are all my buddies.

[300] So, all right.

[301] So what have I been doing here?

[302] I came into town and my initial intention was just to, you know, hang out and see all my old friends and everything.

[303] That sounds like, and the company's paying for you to come here?

[304] No. See, Adam immediately has to tea it up, right?

[305] That's the problem.

[306] So, right.

[307] So Disney was like, I went and talked to Seropi.

[308] I'm like, hey, so GVC, what are we doing?

[309] And he's like, I think that ship has sailed, right?

[310] Okay.

[311] Exactly.

[312] So I paid for my own way out here.

[313] And then once all these meeting requests started coming in, I was like, so I'm getting meeting requests.

[314] What am I going to do?

[315] And they're like, ah, it's expensive.

[316] It's fine.

[317] So anyway, that wasn't very funny.

[318] But as I move on and talk about what I've seen.

[319] I was...

[320] I don't know why you guys see that.

[321] I was just trying to...

[322] Yeah, exactly.

[323] A little bit of my Italian dramatics to it.

[324] I was on the phone actually with Craig, who's one of our good friends, and I'm walking around the show floor and all of a sudden I'm like, what is this?

[325] And I'm like, Craig, I have to call you back.

[326] Someone has a Jerry Rice dog game?

[327] What?

[328] Have you guys seen it?

[329] It's got a booth.

[330] It's got a booth.

[331] It's got a booth.

[332] It's got a booth.

[333] It's always Jerry Rice.

[334] But the logo for it is like Jerry Rice from the Golden Retriever.

[335] Where is that Golden Retriever?

[336] There's a Golden Retriever in here.

[337] It's a Nintendo, right?

[338] So that is my, you know, game of the show right there.

[339] I mean, amazing.

[340] Take the microphone away from me. John Drake, you saw a guy talking about...

[341] Dog football.

[342] Yeah, so I went to two talks today.

[343] I went to Cliffy B's talk, which was interesting.

[344] He was entertaining as always.

[345] And the guy who is apparently behind Jerry Rice dog football.

[346] I don't know.

[347] Is that the name of the game or is that just a description?

[348] It's a working title.

[349] Jerry Rice football 2011.

[350] Catch it.

[351] It's going to be huge.

[352] Fetch.

[353] He got up and asked a question to Cliff at the end of Cliff's talk, and his talk was fine.

[354] He was basically talking about owning your IP and being a power creative, which sounded a little bit too much like power bottom to me. I've always wanted to be a power creative and really get the hips behind it.

[355] But it was actually a really good talk, and he made a lot of sense about a lot of things.

[356] He had his quips and his press quotes.

[357] But then this guy came and asked him, so we've...

[358] he started talking about this company that he founded, how he really agreed with him about owning his IP, and he went, he sort of, I think he got a little nervous and started talking in sort of a long -form question.

[359] Words are going to keep coming out of my mouth, and hopefully a question will eventually form.

[360] And then at some point he switched over to just describing his game, which was, I believe, Jeremiah, it was, no one's ever taken a chance.

[361] on dogs playing football before.

[362] And he said, you know, no publisher wanted to give us money up front, so we raised our own money, made the game, and now publishers are interested.

[363] And it was actually a really nice story and a really nice question for me. But in the middle of it, he just goes, no publishers wanted to take a chance on dogs playing football.

[364] And he just goes, I can sort of understand that.

[365] But the guy was super sweet in me, and there were a bunch of really good questions.

[366] And then we went and saw Sweary's Top from Deadly Premonition, which was the most surreal, bizarre post more.

[367] I don't even really know what was going on.

[368] He brought a coffee pot and had it brewing coffee on the table of the conversation.

[369] Occasionally pause and just look into his coffee like he was waiting for it to tell him what to do next.

[370] So that's from the game.

[371] Yes.

[372] So the two best stories from that though I believe are one he said Someone asked the question, so if you had, in the middle of making Deadly Premonition 1, if you had a million dollars and all the time you had to add one more, two more features, what would you do?

[373] And he said, without missing a beat, well, in Japanese, and then the translator said, I would have had the hero ride a bicycle.

[374] Of course.

[375] And I would have had him able to wear cologne.

[376] Naturally.

[377] I mean, that's really all that game needed.

[378] Yeah, and then it was a perfect game.

[379] But since he said two things, he sort of let it hang there, and everyone was like, is there going to be more?

[380] Or it added a level, or I would have had QA, maybe polish what the hell is going on.

[381] I'm more into the idea that it would take a million dollars in an infinite amount of time to implement a bicycle and cologne.

[382] Did you know how hard it is to do Spell Edition?

[383] One million troops.

[384] Spell Edition is not easy to do.

[385] Have you been on the floor?

[386] There are people with the game skunk.

[387] That's happening.

[388] It looks like a pig.

[389] Cancel sharpener, but then there's a hole in the front that just emits mist.

[390] Mustard gas.

[391] Yeah, exactly.

[392] And there are flavor cartridges in it that will spit out rose scent or...

[393] Nobody should be interested in something.

[394] Because if somebody hacks that...

[395] Pirate's out and makes poison?

[396] Pirate's smells?

[397] Pirate's smells?

[398] Yeah.

[399] It's terrible.

[400] The poison smell.

[401] It smells like poison.

[402] I accidentally bought an unlicensed game.

[403] It's not like Game Genie or Game Sharp, like it might break your nest.

[404] It's like, I bought an unlicensed smell cartridge, and I can't see.

[405] And it was ricin.

[406] Everything's fine.

[407] Modern Warfare 3 is going to support it, and that'll be exactly it.

[408] It'll be just the ricin cartridge.

[409] It's going to totally...

[410] The other sweary slide that I thought was pretty amazing was that he was talking about how he wants to make his characters good, but also have a little bit of a downside to them.

[411] And so he had like, this girl is like a mother who would care for you, but also she can't cook.

[412] That was like one of his examples.

[413] But the title of the slide was, you take the good, you take the bad.

[414] And I immediately turned to Abby, who was with me, and went...

[415] Is he going to talk about the facts of life?

[416] And then that was a good beat.

[417] He said, it's like poisons, you know, every rose has its thorn, and every cowboy has watched the facts of life.

[418] And then what he described...

[419] What are you doing?

[420] That's exactly what he said.

[421] And everyone in the panel started turning around looking at each other.

[422] It was like, did he...

[423] I guess he meant it.

[424] He was talking about...

[425] I'm guessing that his translator might be the greatest genius on earth and swearing he's just super serious the whole time.

[426] I think we need a fact checker.

[427] Like a Ben Judd that's there.

[428] He was giving sales figures and then the translation just got completely lost.

[429] But everyone had a big smile on their face and that dude's a total badass.

[430] It was a fun talker.

[431] That seems like a great example of game design that can only happen in Japan, it seems like, where you're going to deliberately make something totally crazy and find a way to make it work.

[432] What do you guys think about Japanese game development these days, as kind of people that are making games here?

[433] Here's a loaded question.

[434] I grew up on Japanese game development.

[435] I think we all grew up on Japanese game development.

[436] Some people did PC, right?

[437] Yeah, that's true.

[438] That's true.

[439] I guess I was kind of straddling the line even then.

[440] But it seems like, you know, if you look at the popular games here in North America now, it almost seems like the PC developers won in a sense.

[441] Where you're seeing a lot of that Western design is really kind of risen and taking control.

[442] Where all these PC developers that are now making games on Xbox and consoles and stuff like that are the games that people want to play.

[443] Whereas Japanese design...

[444] feels often a step behind, especially when they're trying to do shooters and things like that, where it just, it seems like there's usually something missing.

[445] All right, so I'm going to argue with you real quick and just tell you that I didn't think Vanquish was a step behind.

[446] I actually thought that that was really dope.

[447] Yeah, that's a great example.

[448] You're right.

[449] Amazing game.

[450] And you can't get discount Nintendo either, right?

[451] I mean, they're Japanese, but nobody really sees them as Japanese, right?

[452] They're just, you know.

[453] dominant.

[454] At the same time, they're super dominant, but in a sense, they're kind of just off doing their own thing.

[455] Nintendo's always going to beat Nintendo regardless of what country they're building games in and all that stuff.

[456] I guess I'm more talking about, it's like Feel Plus is putting out third -person shooters that are ridiculous.

[457] You know one thing, the budgets, there's a huge discrepancy between the budgets of Western games and Japanese games.

[458] AAA budgets, $30 million, $20 million.

[459] Japanese budgets, AAA...

[460] I think Van Gogh was like $5 million or something like that.

[461] I don't quote that.

[462] Was it really?

[463] I'm not 100 % sure, but I think it's around there.

[464] You think it's being recorded right now?

[465] I don't know anything about Van Gogh.

[466] I think I heard that publicly.

[467] Working for Capcom, the internal budgets from Japanese internal development was in line with the US ones for AAA games.

[468] In the tens of millions of dollars, for sure.

[469] But I mean, you know, when they go...

[470] I mean, the other thing about it is the salaries of Japanese...

[471] Are very low.

[472] Yeah, especially when they go independent.

[473] I think there's a lot of overhead with the internal stuff.

[474] So I would imagine with an independent developer, it would probably be a lot lower.

[475] Well, and those were intended to be worldwide titles, not games that were made for Japan and then brought over to the US.

[476] Oh, for sure, yeah.

[477] Which is a different thing than, again...

[478] I think the games I end up enjoying the most that are coming from there seem like the games that were...

[479] maybe more intended for a Japanese audience and brought over because it really captures a very different feel and a very different flavor.

[480] Whereas when...

[481] If it's trying to mimic games that are big here already.

[482] I want Japan to beat Japan.

[483] I want Japan to be fucking crazy.

[484] I want that to sell.

[485] I want that to be a thing that can be huge like it was.

[486] I want their industry to be able to support that.

[487] I've read interviews where the culture of you pick a company, you work there for life in Japan is bogging down the whole process.

[488] There was this great interview with a development guy at Capcom who was complaining about this.

[489] I got all these great ideas, but...

[490] you're punished for taking risks.

[491] And I said, well, that's a guy I want to make a game with.

[492] I want to see what kind of crazy stuff he's got, and I would love to just make a game with him.

[493] And to that point, actually, I just found out that one big Japanese publisher, they basically, because they're worried about people leaving, especially now, because the West and the East are very different when it comes to, you know.

[494] Over here, we stay with companies for two to five years, and then we move on, right?

[495] In Japan, you're right.

[496] It's a lifetime thing.

[497] So it's so paranoid about people leaving that they force everyone in Japan to change their email address every six months.

[498] They do an automated system where they give them a new email address so they can't be plucked from the outside.

[499] Which, I mean, Western philosophy just says...

[500] Why don't you just make the working, you know, make it better to work there?

[501] That sounds exciting.

[502] It does.

[503] They don't have email.

[504] They just throw rocks through windows with notes attached.

[505] But what about Level 5?

[506] I mean, they're a great studio, and they've made it over to the West pretty well.

[507] But still kind of retain their identity.

[508] They're still making identifiably Japanese games.

[509] I think when the West, when we try to emulate the Japanese, we just always get it off.

[510] Kind of like when they try to emulate Western development, they get it a bit off.

[511] And you want that.

[512] It's a culture thing.

[513] Yeah, and you want that.

[514] That offness feels genuine.

[515] And from working in Capcom for three years and meeting Inifune -san and Takeuchi -san and those guys, you just feel that they're...

[516] Sometimes they don't care.

[517] They want to be irreverent.

[518] They want to make their own thing.

[519] It just feels comfortable in a weird way that's uncomfortable.

[520] It's like a genetic mutation that just makes your species better as a whole.

[521] Right.

[522] Do you guys feel that there are ways to bridge that gap by having developers overseas working with developers here?

[523] Apparently genetic mutations.

[524] Yeah, like actually getting kind of a best of both worlds, or are they completely incompatible?

[525] I mean, again, back from my experience at Capcom, I think there's certain developers out there that get...

[526] the Japanese sort of tendencies.

[527] I think Blue Castle did a great job with Dead Rising 2.

[528] I played through that.

[529] I'm like, this feels like our guys in Capcom Japan made it.

[530] It really did.

[531] It was kind of eerie.

[532] Yeah, exactly.

[533] There was some things like, why did you do that?

[534] Except for the accents.

[535] Up on the roof.

[536] But I think other teams, though, that don't get it, I think that's when you have a big clash and it just can't work.

[537] So we actually worked with Konami doing Scribblenauts over in Japan.

[538] So that did really well.

[539] And a lot of Japanese people really loved it.

[540] Famitsu.

[541] gave us a 38 out of 40 or something like that.

[542] That's really cool.

[543] Congrats.

[544] Yeah, so a lot of people really were into that.

[545] And Solid Snake made it into that version, right?

[546] And Old Snake and a bunch of other stuff.

[547] Wow, that's pretty awesome.

[548] That was really cool, actually.

[549] And the producer actually was...

[550] Why am I blanking?

[551] The Castlevania guy.

[552] David Cox, you go.

[553] Igarashi.

[554] And he was the producer.

[555] So he was like, dude, I love Scribble Ops in the West.

[556] Like, I want to get this game over to Japan.

[557] And he was the producer on the title.

[558] So then does that mean it has better hat and whip technology?

[559] It does.

[560] Especially the hat.

[561] I mean, that was the most important part.

[562] He was like, gotta get that right.

[563] How was the localization process of a game like that?

[564] I didn't work on that side.

[565] Is it just like katakana?

[566] Or can you enter English characters?

[567] Yeah, absolutely both.

[568] They actually wanted to use it as an English teaching tool.

[569] That was like a big thing.

[570] One billion words.

[571] That would actually make a lot of sense though.

[572] I mean.

[573] Yeah, no, totally.

[574] It's like.

[575] Yeah.

[576] Stop it.

[577] It's like my ghosts.

[578] You know, so what everyone doesn't understand that's watching right now is that we had been, you know, here since about six o 'clock and then.

[579] We told multiple stories, and now here we are, and everyone's been prefaced with all of the retarded stories that we've done prior to this.

[580] Did you say retarded?

[581] Yeah.

[582] I did.

[583] Oh, redact.

[584] Anyway.

[585] Anyway.

[586] Makes a lot of sense.

[587] Well, uh...

[588] No joke.

[589] I live in Seattle.

[590] Right.

[591] Yeah, you said that earlier.

[592] All right, guys.

[593] No jokes about me. I'm from Seattle.

[594] That's where I went.

[595] That's where you went.

[596] Now, Jeremiah, I know your time here is short.

[597] You've got to get back out onto the scene.

[598] Yes.

[599] But thanks for having me. Yeah, I know.

[600] It was a lot of fun.

[601] Thanks a lot for coming.

[602] You're not leaving right now, are you?

[603] Can we not talk a little bit about your games and everything that you've done?

[604] What's it like working on a downloadable game as opposed to a handheld game?

[605] It's interesting, a lot of people assume that hybrid is harder to make than Scribblenauts, but it's exactly the opposite.

[606] Because Scribblenauts, we had no idea what we were doing, right?

[607] We were just like, well, let's look at other games and see how they did it.

[608] Nobody did it that way, right?

[609] With a shooter, right?

[610] There's so many benchmarks you can go after, right?

[611] The camera and the feel of the shooting and stuff, so there's a lot more that we could do.

[612] So even though it's 3D and bigger budget and all that stuff, it's way easier compared to Scribblenauts.

[613] A lot of people don't think that.

[614] Cool.

[615] Awesome.

[616] Well, I guess we'll let you go.

[617] I want to say I really enjoyed your talk at Dice.

[618] Yes, oh, thanks.

[619] I thought it was really useful.

[620] I mean, even just, you know, it's like we're not making games, we're writing about them, but it's like a small company that's looking to grow and continue to grow and that sort of stuff.

[621] I feel like some of that stuff applies.

[622] Yeah, well, we knew that a lot of publishers go to Dice and stuff, so kind of the big message was just like, hey, make great games, don't worry about the other stuff.

[623] A lot of publishers are like, I need the PowerPoints and I need the beautiful design docs and that's cool and all, but if you're going to do that, do that on the publisher side.

[624] Don't bog down the developer with that kind of stuff because, you know.

[625] the consumer doesn't see your schedules, the consumer doesn't see your PowerPoints, the consumer doesn't see your beautiful design docs.

[626] I mean, yes, the design docs have to be written well, right?

[627] I mean, you have to convey your idea, but you don't need to, like, have an artist work on it, right?

[628] You know what I mean?

[629] So it's like, that's really, really important.

[630] And so some publishers kind of...

[631] put a little more emphasis than they should on that.

[632] So that was part of our talk was like, hey, you know, make sure that, you know, make the game good because that's all that matters, right?

[633] That's really all that matters.

[634] Egos don't matter, you know, nothing.

[635] It doesn't matter because they're not playing us.

[636] They're playing what we made.

[637] That's all that matters at the end of the day.

[638] See, what's so funny is that all the memes that we've had, it's been like...

[639] you know, all upon circumstance, and I've been like, you know, I just actually want to play your game.

[640] Right.

[641] No trailer.

[642] Don't even give me trailers.

[643] Like, don't.

[644] Exactly.

[645] Like, don't even do that.

[646] I'm like, yeah, I want to play that.

[647] Yeah.

[648] And I think that, like, especially at Disney, like, the funniest thing in the entire world is when you're showing it to people, it's like, the people that grab on the controller are the ones that, like, you're actually talking to and connecting to.

[649] Right.

[650] Because those are gamers, you know?

[651] Right.

[652] And so I think that's really, really important, you know, from a publishing perspective that, like, When developers come in, you have to play the games.

[653] Because that's...

[654] If you're not a gamer, then why are you in this industry?

[655] You know what I'm saying?

[656] And it seems like that's a dying breed sometimes.

[657] It seems like there's a lot of...

[658] It is.

[659] A lot of damn suits.

[660] Because there's so much money, right?

[661] I mean, that's a big thing.

[662] I wear suits.

[663] Yeah, don't even do that.

[664] He's got no tie.

[665] He's got no tie.

[666] No tie?

[667] No, I do that because that's Johnny V. To the programmer.

[668] Look at him, he's got a suit on.

[669] He's got a naughty dog.

[670] That's like some Joseph of Booth.

[671] I mean...

[672] Let's all say goodbye, Jeremiah.

[673] Thanks again for coming out.

[674] We'll let you get off in the night.

[675] And Dave Lang.

[676] Oh!

[677] Say goodbye to the camera.

[678] Give him a wave.

[679] Now we got...

[680] Amazing.

[681] Yeah, it worked.

[682] Little old fact.

[683] Jeremiah's got the best sneaker collection in the gaming industry.

[684] Little old fact.

[685] I believe it.

[686] I want to see him and suit at 51 go up again.

[687] So we've got another programmer with the suit.

[688] Jeremiah was a bullfrog.

[689] Was a good friend.

[690] You just want to go?

[691] No. I'm looking at you for all the edit points for later on when you're trying to chop this down.

[692] We're not getting chopped down.

[693] This is straight.

[694] This is gold.

[695] If I cut it down, people end up going like, oh, they cut out all the good stuff.

[696] Oh, shit.

[697] This is life?

[698] Dave Lang, Iron Galaxy Studios.

[699] Now, that's a company that...

[700] People might not be familiar with, you know, you're not necessarily.

[701] At their peril, sir.

[702] Yeah, at their peril.

[703] Why don't you tell us what is Iron Galaxy all about?

[704] So we split off of Midway before the whole Warner Brothers swooped in and kind of saved the day there.

[705] A group of us kind of broke out and started doing just like technical outsourcing stuff.

[706] Basically like, you know, this project, the business guys get in a room and they're like, oh, this game is in trouble.

[707] Has to ship Q3.

[708] So that's when they hire us and we kind of go in there and do our thing.

[709] Parachute.

[710] Thank you, sir.

[711] What projects have you worked on, Dave?

[712] We've worked on some hot bangers.

[713] Your logo is at the beginning if you don't know Jeff.

[714] Let me tell the story.

[715] We've slowly been transitioning into full game development.

[716] We have really good relationships with some people we work with and landed some XBLA, PSN stuff.

[717] We recently just shipped You Don't Know Jack with Jellyvision and THQ.

[718] We wrote all the jokes.

[719] We did all the funny stuff.

[720] No, you didn't.

[721] No, the Jellyfish guys were in there banging on keyboards, making programming happen.

[722] And we wrote all the funny stuff.

[723] It's a little -known fact about the game.

[724] And Mike Builder.

[725] Your name's Mike Builder.

[726] Is that your pseudonym?

[727] Pseudonym.

[728] Pseudonym 50.

[729] What?

[730] What?

[731] I'll do this all day.

[732] This is a great podcast.

[733] You're a weird pun friend.

[734] Yeah, so we just shipped that.

[735] Basically just tried to get out of their way, let them be funny.

[736] Gave them the platform to do that.

[737] And we've got a bunch of really cool stuff that, once again, we can't talk about yet.

[738] But it'll all be out this year, so it'll be...

[739] really cool later this year.

[740] From what you've demonstrated so far, I don't know why you wanted to get out of the way to let them be funny.

[741] It's hard to believe, isn't it?

[742] You're taking the coffee reins.

[743] You might want to change the angle of your senior profile and it's not that becoming.

[744] Let's profile.

[745] Can we profile off right now?

[746] Let's do it.

[747] Now you're going to stay there just to spite me. Now, what are you doing here at GDC other than modeling your chest?

[748] Drinking.

[749] Chest model.

[750] So, yeah, so it's basically like business drunk.

[751] When you start, you kind of just wake up and just vodka tonics all day long.

[752] So we redesigned the Heisman Trophy last night.

[753] And it's me giving that stiff arm to an indie developer with a vodka tonic in my hand.

[754] Like this.

[755] I'm glad his hand helped, like, last.

[756] Are you an indie developer putting a boot to his head while you're at it or something?

[757] Clearly, Jeff, you don't know anything about the Heisman Trophy.

[758] You have to raise one foot.

[759] No, I know.

[760] That's what I'm saying.

[761] It's inside that the figurative boot is going to his skull.

[762] So why are you smashing indie developers when you are one?

[763] Are you saying you hate indie developers?

[764] No, I am an indie developer.

[765] So you've got to hate all the other indie developers so you can have indie indie developers.

[766] The only way we'll succeed is by keeping others down.

[767] Nice.

[768] That's actually very impressive.

[769] Yeah, he actually doesn't have internet in the office.

[770] He doesn't want anyone on the internet.

[771] No job searches.

[772] Nothing like that.

[773] And then he changes their emails every month.

[774] Is that Billy Berghammer?

[775] What's up, buddy?

[776] I'm drinking a podcast.

[777] We're doing a podcast.

[778] So, other than being business drunk, have you gone to any talks?

[779] No, it's basically been a lot of pitch meetings, stuff like that.

[780] Lobby hopping.

[781] Yeah, it's basically just meeting, meeting, meeting.

[782] A couple of my guys are here, and they said they saw some really cool stuff.

[783] I think they liked the Remedy talk today.

[784] But that's a great story.

[785] Is anyone at the Angry Birds one?

[786] Oh, yo, that's what I was telling you about.

[787] I know.

[788] Everybody, sorry.

[789] I'm like, I'm freaking out.

[790] Just have a drink.

[791] Has anyone, have you heard about this?

[792] Angry Birds?

[793] No. What is it?

[794] Angry Birds, it's like this game.

[795] No, the talk, right?

[796] Where these guys got up and were like, where's my credit?

[797] You guys haven't heard about this?

[798] Definitely heard about that.

[799] Like the publisher versus the developer stuff?

[800] No, it was the physics guy.

[801] I'm not going to actually be the guy.

[802] No, hell no. Because it'll get quoted.

[803] I'm not going to be the guy that like...

[804] retells that story, but...

[805] You could actually go right ahead and read that on joystick .com.

[806] It's already out there.

[807] Now, Ben, what does that story have to say?

[808] That story has to say, it was that the guy, like you said, the physics engine guy, basically got up during the QA and asked what physics engine they used.

[809] And he said, oh, well, it's this one.

[810] He's like, so are you going to give them credit?

[811] And there was just an awkward moment of silence.

[812] And then the dudes from Rovio were like, we'll talk after this is over.

[813] And that was it.

[814] No, did you say I'm the CEO of that physics company?

[815] Right, right, right.

[816] Yes, he definitely called himself out.

[817] You forgot that.

[818] Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[819] That's kind of important.

[820] Excuse me. Ghosts.

[821] No, no, no. Anyway, back to ghosts.

[822] How long did the ghost thing yet?

[823] Anyway, go ahead.

[824] That's it.

[825] That's the end of the story.

[826] There's no more.

[827] They also announced they sold 30 million on Android or something like that.

[828] I thought it was like ad supported on Android or something.

[829] I don't even know.

[830] But they had 30 million downloads then.

[831] Okay.

[832] But that's probably the most downloaded thing ever on Android.

[833] That's probably millions of troops.

[834] I have an Android phone.

[835] Crediting in games actually seems like it is...

[836] Kind of crazy.

[837] It's weird.

[838] People leave companies and they don't end up getting credits.

[839] As more and more games get outsourced.

[840] Do you want to speak about that, Adam?

[841] We have a talk often about at what point in the project, if you leave, is it okay to take you out of the credits?

[842] I'm looking at you, Dave.

[843] Dave Lang would love if the credits roll was blank for everyone.

[844] That's not true.

[845] That's absolutely not true.

[846] You don't like when people double credit themselves.

[847] Double credits drive me crazy.

[848] A year before the game is shipping, people are like, what's my title going to be?

[849] That drives me absolutely bonkers.

[850] Just do your work.

[851] We'll roll the names.

[852] You'll be in there.

[853] And a story.

[854] Credits are simple.

[855] It should be the simplest thing in the freaking game.

[856] It drives me bonkers.

[857] Actually, a lot of times...

[858] even if developers want to leave people in, like legal, publisher legal, like, no, you've got to yank them out, right?

[859] They might have a claim against us, fraudulent or not.

[860] And so a lot of times people get a bad rap for that, but sometimes it's like...

[861] This game is not coming out unless these people are removed.

[862] Marshall was still in the credits for our games a while after he came back here.

[863] He was in Rockman 3, but I don't think he was in Dance Central.

[864] He was a photo.

[865] I think that we did somewhere like two -thirds of the dev cycle.

[866] Someone in the studio had substantive work on part of the project that basically made it possible to ship.

[867] They were in a meeting where someone was like, we should totally have that character have red hair.

[868] He's like, yeah, red hair.

[869] He was dancing.

[870] He's game creator.

[871] centrally yes it's weird because like you don't want to get you sort of bent on sheep about it but like when bcr2 came out and i'm like oh our old guys that were there when we signed it and worked halfway on it aren't in the credits and i was like But you don't want to get too worked up because so many of her approvals I know actually manage the credit system.

[872] What's that?

[873] No one's reading the credits.

[874] It's a pride thing.

[875] It's goofy.

[876] It doesn't matter if it's...

[877] It doesn't matter.

[878] But there's just that weird internal thing that you're like, ah.

[879] Because they had the whole entire Grin stuff.

[880] When Grin went under, they had them all in the credit app.

[881] You spent part of your life working on something.

[882] How about over at Naughty Dog?

[883] Uh, well, depending on, uh, how far into the project you leave, you might get very special thanks or maybe just special thanks.

[884] So how far, like what, what is the rule?

[885] Uh, it's all by seniority.

[886] And we sort of group by, um, discipline.

[887] You sort discipline by alphabet, I believe, and then inside each discipline select programmers.

[888] It's just all by when you rehired on, and that's it.

[889] But no joke, every game that we are finishing, it becomes like every time we're like, we are not going to have a credits fight about how we're doing the credits and who we're in what category, and then every year it's like...

[890] another round of, well, maybe we'll do it by departments and people who didn't work on this game will work on the other game, won't be in the credits, and it's like a huge discussion.

[891] I imagine as there's more and more outsourcing and different localization teams and stuff, some credit scrolls.

[892] 500 people.

[893] Go watch Assassin's Creed 2's credits.

[894] I should have had an achievement.

[895] The Rock Band Beatles credits.

[896] It goes on forever.

[897] Well, in the Black Ops credits, there were like three full songs that played.

[898] I like it.

[899] How about the Modern Warfare 2 credits where it gets to the publisher side credits and the scroll speeds up like 10 hits.

[900] I will say one of the nice things about Naughty Dog is because we are so flat, it'll just be like lead programmer and programmers.

[901] There's not like lead UI assistant programmer, then like adjunct programmer to the main networking guy.

[902] It was a really hard thing for us.

[903] trying to build this database and give proper credit to people.

[904] And it sounds like there's just no proper crediting guidelines for the industry out there.

[905] It's also daunting.

[906] Who's in charge?

[907] Is it the producer?

[908] Is it the programmer?

[909] And when that one person is giving, you're in charge of the credit, all of a sudden there's this whole, I have to make sure every person that's ever touched this game ever gets in there.

[910] It's daunting.

[911] Because they're going to have that same feeling when they watch it.

[912] Maybe they should put up a website.

[913] I really respect Gearbox.

[914] Do you think it's working out great for them?

[915] Yeah, exactly.

[916] I respect them for doing that, right?

[917] Because it's like, alright, open call.

[918] How many of you guys actually touched this game?

[919] And I wanted to be like, yo, I did.

[920] Do you do the game?

[921] I did the haircut on that.

[922] I thought it was interesting that there's checkboxes on the website about what division of this game did you maybe work on?

[923] And there was one for press.

[924] And it was like, you know, were you a media guy?

[925] So Jeff, you submitted your own name, didn't you?

[926] It was significant, like...

[927] And I was like, well, I just talked about that game once.

[928] I didn't actually submit my own name.

[929] Yeah, you did.

[930] No, no. It's actually...

[931] I actually...

[932] The only game I've ever been credited in is Guitar Hero 2.

[933] For what?

[934] And my name is misspelled.

[935] It's like a thanks...

[936] Gertzman.

[937] Is it Gertzman?

[938] Yeah.

[939] Johnny B. still calls you that, by the way.

[940] You guys make fun of me for that.

[941] Gertzman.

[942] I don't mean to.

[943] He's just doing a Jeff Keighley impression.

[944] Jamie, did you know that Tron Iron Galaxy is credited as mocap talent?

[945] Shut up.

[946] Are you serious?

[947] Well, you were in the suit for a while.

[948] I'm not going to.

[949] We were.

[950] Yeah, but no. So thanks for that.

[951] Are you serious?

[952] Yes.

[953] I think you're fucking around right now.

[954] No, 100%.

[955] You have a good Tron story, Johnny.

[956] No, I don't want to tell the story.

[957] Okay.

[958] You can tell the ghost story.

[959] You can tell the threesome story?

[960] Yeah.

[961] No. Jesus.

[962] I don't think you can say I want to tell the Tron threesome story.

[963] All right.

[964] So I'll tell it real quick.

[965] Real quick.

[966] It is, so I go back to Chi -Town.

[967] I'm hanging out, having a great time.

[968] And I'm hanging out with the Iron Galaxy dudes.

[969] And my fiance rolls up with one of her good friends.

[970] And she sees me and I'm like, gooned.

[971] Right.

[972] And she's like, we got to get you out of here.

[973] Right.

[974] This is all being told to me like later on.

[975] Right.

[976] And so then I get in a cab.

[977] We go.

[978] And then apparently we went to 7 -Eleven.

[979] And then at the 7 -Eleven, it was like there was some booze there.

[980] And then the guy's like, well, we stopped selling booze at two o 'clock.

[981] And it was 2 -15.

[982] And then my fiance was like, well, he's going to have a threesome tonight.

[983] It's me and this other chick.

[984] Right.

[985] It was there.

[986] So we're all excited.

[987] And then.

[988] Only if you buy.

[989] Only if you sell the booze.

[990] Right.

[991] And so the guy's like, yeah, great goose.

[992] He puts it down.

[993] Adrian throws down, like, a pack of Magnums.

[994] Yeah, yeah.

[995] And then, like, we, so we go back to her friend's house.

[996] I see why now, why you were hesitant to tell me. No, where's the Tron?

[997] No, no, it's coming, it's coming.

[998] It's coming, right?

[999] So then, I can't believe I'm telling you a story right now.

[1000] So then, um, we get back to the girl's place, and this girl's, like, best friends with Adrian or whatever, right?

[1001] So they go outside, and they're like, hey.

[1002] Don't skip the doorman.

[1003] Tell the doorman part.

[1004] Yeah, the doorman's like, hey, he tries to stop me. And I'm like, and these girls are like, he's going to have a threesome tonight.

[1005] I'm like, yeah.

[1006] All right, buddy, you go upstairs, right?

[1007] So I go upstairs.

[1008] The girls go outside on the balcony to have a cigarette.

[1009] And there's, like, one of those big, like, leather, like, real big, you know, like the double leather.

[1010] Like a high chair, like you're a baby.

[1011] Not a high chair.

[1012] Not like a baby.

[1013] The deep.

[1014] Couches.

[1015] Yeah, so it was so funny.

[1016] So I got all excited, right?

[1017] And I sat down in the chair.

[1018] Disrupt.

[1019] And then, no, yeah, I did disrupt.

[1020] And then I was just in my undies, and the girls were outside smoking.

[1021] And so then I was like, oh, shit, like, you know what's missing from this right now?

[1022] Some music.

[1023] So I pulled out my fucking phone, which is like this little piece of shit.

[1024] Right?

[1025] And I went to YouTube, and I was like, John Legacy, end of line club theme.

[1026] And I hit it, right?

[1027] And it's like...

[1028] And I put it down, and I sat there, right?

[1029] All excited.

[1030] And the girls walked in and were like, what the fuck is wrong with me?

[1031] Like, you didn't think you were really going to have a threesome, did you?

[1032] And I was like...

[1033] And they sat there for two and a half minutes and laughed in my face.

[1034] Wah, wah.

[1035] That sounds highly erotic.

[1036] Yeah, it was...

[1037] Because what I think deeply passionate soulful music, I think Tron soundtrack.

[1038] Yes, definitely.

[1039] Guys with helmets.

[1040] Terrible story.

[1041] So Tron has weighed heavy on your brain then since the release of all that stuff.

[1042] All the time, yeah.

[1043] Tron is awesome.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] You guys see the Tron Jeremy thing?

[1046] Yes, I actually did see that.

[1047] Ron Jeremy doing the Tron stuff.

[1048] It's like you and me, right?

[1049] It's like Mr. Hands, Tron Jeremy.

[1050] Yeah, the important shit.

[1051] Yeah, exactly, right?

[1052] Definitely.

[1053] Hit your wagon on that story.

[1054] Hit my wagon to Mr. Hands while I'm dead.

[1055] All right, with that, we're going to take a quick break.

[1056] We'll be back in a little bit.

[1057] But, you know, there's a bar behind this camera.

[1058] We've got to visit it for a little while.

[1059] So stay tuned.

[1060] We'll be back.

[1061] reckless in here thanks yeah you look at me and you say that right jesus christ so i thought you know i was looking around the room and i realized like all you guys are from or worked in chicago uh which uh you know you don't necessarily hear a ton about as a big game development mecca these days um but i know you three uh johnny adam dave y 'all had uh did time midway and uh I think the three of us officially sank it.

[1062] I think the three of us are the reason.

[1063] Oh, someone said that on the comments.

[1064] It made me so upset.

[1065] You sank Midway?

[1066] No, yeah.

[1067] I called you about this.

[1068] Johnny does not do well with reading comic books.

[1069] Did you read by Freaky Flyers?

[1070] No, it was just which year it is.

[1071] or year seven.

[1072] One of your guys, one of your guys was like, yeah, everything that, like, Vinayaki touches is like, is a complete disaster.

[1073] There's a bankruptcy.

[1074] And so I'm like, oh shit, someone connected the dots.

[1075] And so I'm like, I'm reading this and it's like, dude, it was at midway, midway crash.

[1076] I went to bullshit that crash, and I'm like, now I'm at the largest entertainment company in the world.

[1077] You just needed a new challenge, man. Everything else was too easy.

[1078] Achievement unlocked, right.

[1079] Veteran mode.

[1080] So I was mortified.

[1081] I went to Chicago for the first time, I think, in 1991.

[1082] And it was for CES.

[1083] 1991, the number.

[1084] I was six years old.

[1085] Yeah, they would have two CESs a year.

[1086] Well, I was like 17.

[1087] I mean, what?

[1088] You started going to trade shows when you were like 16 or 17, right?

[1089] That's true.

[1090] That's true.

[1091] 14.

[1092] Yeah, I just turned 18.

[1093] So, yeah, it was the same type of deal.

[1094] I was in high school going to CES trying to meet dudes in the game industry.

[1095] Just trying to make dudes.

[1096] That came out exactly right.

[1097] And you know what?

[1098] Look at Jeff now.

[1099] He met a lot of dudes.

[1100] This second is going to be a disaster.

[1101] The Chicago cast is going just the way it should.

[1102] And I remember going to the Battletech Center.

[1103] So good.

[1104] And then they eventually added Red Planet and fucked the whole thing up.

[1105] Location -based entertainment.

[1106] How many of you guys are working on games like that?

[1107] That's a real topic starter.

[1108] Are you guys all into that?

[1109] Are you going to start?

[1110] It's good if we all nod and don't respond, right?

[1111] Just quietly.

[1112] Totally.

[1113] This is perfect for the audio version.

[1114] We have this thing called Disney World.

[1115] Never heard of it.

[1116] I thought it was called Threesome World and your world.

[1117] God, I'm so upset about that.

[1118] So happy.

[1119] So exciting.

[1120] Ratings.

[1121] So the Chicago game industry, I mean, obviously, you know, NetherRealm is still there, kind of, as like one of the last remnants of Midway, I guess, I would call it.

[1122] I was talking to somebody from NetherRealm last night.

[1123] They said they're, like, I have no idea how big they are.

[1124] They said they're 150 still.

[1125] So many people still there.

[1126] It's crazy.

[1127] And they're just kind of working on MK, right?

[1128] Who knows, right?

[1129] That's true.

[1130] I mean, we know they have an NGP dev kit.

[1131] We don't know that officially.

[1132] That's why they have 150 people.

[1133] Nobody knows 150 people.

[1134] Just watching the kid.

[1135] Making sure no one touches it.

[1136] Now that you guys have seen the world, except for Dave, who is still repping Chicago.

[1137] Now that you guys have seen the world, as it were.

[1138] I brought Dave to Europe for the first time.

[1139] It was like watching a small child discover the earth.

[1140] It's like, yeah, it's a place you've only ever seen on TV.

[1141] It's like this magical land that doesn't...

[1142] It might as well have been, like, the fucking grid to me. It's like you go to this place, like, this really exists.

[1143] Holy shit, weird exit signs.

[1144] And they have acts.

[1145] Holy shit, weird exit signs.

[1146] That's Chicago's tagline.

[1147] Well, you know, Patrick, it's a city that was taken down by fire, so wherever Dave goes, the first thing he does is...

[1148] Look for the fire exits.

[1149] Making sure everything is safe.

[1150] They speak in these strange tongues.

[1151] What's different about Chicago in terms of its development scene and stuff compared to, you know, you're in L .A. and obviously you're out here now.

[1152] Is there something unique about Chicago?

[1153] Why do the people in Chicago stay in Chicago?

[1154] It doesn't seem like there are a ton of developers out there.

[1155] Is it just low cost of living?

[1156] That's not something I personally understand either.

[1157] You know, born and raised there or whatever.

[1158] Got my first job out in Salt Lake.

[1159] Did a bunch of stuff out there.

[1160] And, like, came back.

[1161] Salt Lake?

[1162] Salt Lake, yeah.

[1163] Were you at Iguana?

[1164] I was at Sculpture.

[1165] They turned into Iguana.

[1166] Then Kodiak.

[1167] Wrestling games?

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] Then Microsoft out there.

[1170] Well, it was the Access guys who became Microsoft.

[1171] Was that the indie build?

[1172] Then they turned into indie build.

[1173] Okay.

[1174] So you were not there for AMP 3 yet?

[1175] No, I was there, so...

[1176] He still puts it on his resume.

[1177] Antwo and Lynx, the first one for Xbox dropped.

[1178] They're so busy then.

[1179] Really busy.

[1180] They're making mad cash.

[1181] They're so awesome.

[1182] You've seen the robot arm.

[1183] Have you seen it?

[1184] It's fake.

[1185] It's fake.

[1186] Do the sass question.

[1187] What is it about Chicago that attracts that number of game developers?

[1188] Like, I know obviously that's...

[1189] I don't think it attracts...

[1190] All right, wait.

[1191] Drake is going to speak.

[1192] So the thing about Chicago and the thing about the Midwest in general is that, like many sitcoms on CBS, there are hot women...

[1193] willing to bed large pasty men.

[1194] You are making fun of me right now.

[1195] I got them to cease talking.

[1196] Actually, John was the commenter that really got you upset.

[1197] Yeah, I've just been following your career.

[1198] John, the only non -rotum man aside from Patrick on this panel.

[1199] Yeah, I know where you're coming with that.

[1200] But it's...

[1201] I mean, it's a nice place to live.

[1202] It's a well -planned city.

[1203] You got good public transportation.

[1204] Chicago, a well -planned city.

[1205] Hey, I live in Boston, and it snows like a foot, and all traffic just stops.

[1206] The road's fucking curved.

[1207] And now I'll get to terror.

[1208] You'd be happy to live in the west.

[1209] West of the Midwest.

[1210] You know what I think was gritty?

[1211] Fuck Boston.

[1212] Oh, God.

[1213] I do not want to see anything from here popping out.

[1214] No, I just mean as a poorly planned city.

[1215] Oh, sure, yeah.

[1216] Fuck Boston.

[1217] I think you guys should fight or something.

[1218] I don't know.

[1219] Which problem?

[1220] I think it's, I think, you know, actually, it seems true about Vancouver.

[1221] is that people don't like to leave.

[1222] Like when they have family and layers of family, they don't want to leave, right?

[1223] And Canadians just are allergic to America usually.

[1224] So I took a lot of injections before I came down here.

[1225] That explains a lot.

[1226] For our side of things, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, you've got Game Informer out in Minnesota.

[1227] There's some stuff down in L .A. And you have kind of like bloggers kind of spread out in whatever weird parts of the world that they can work on a blogger's salary.

[1228] But the bulk of it is here in San Francisco.

[1229] You know, so it's always interesting to me to see just, like, you know, there are different scenes of, you know, it's like the Austin scene and, like, Vancouver and stuff like that.

[1230] So, you know, just, like, what was it like?

[1231] What was Midway like?

[1232] I mean, you guys were there as they were transitioning, like, out of arcades into the home market, right?

[1233] That has to be, like, a crazy time.

[1234] I think me being from small -town Canada, moving to Chicago was my first, like, I lived in Ireland for a bit, but moving to Chicago, working for Midway, I'd worked at EA before, so I was used to very...

[1235] corporate sort of regimented thing.

[1236] And I remember it was week number two and we were having a company -wide conference call.

[1237] And what happened was we're all dialing in at the time and they screwed up the dial -in so everyone could hear everyone else.

[1238] So there's like buzzing and people are like, oh, I can hear it.

[1239] And all of a sudden I hear this accent.

[1240] Hello?

[1241] This is Neil.

[1242] I own your fucking dreams.

[1243] And I'm like...

[1244] and the EA and me just like I'm literally pooping my pants I'm like somebody who's getting fired I should leave right I was like what is this about and so they finally figured out like everyone's joining and leaving like leaving the conference call afterwards I'm like what was that we own your fucking dreams I'm like that's a pretty good story Adam Three years ago, Neil Nicastro, who was the old CEO at the time, is holding a company meeting.

[1245] Now, apparently a lot of people had wanted to ask questions at the company meetings, but he was never really comfortable addressing the whole company.

[1246] So, finally he said, okay, HR, I get it.

[1247] I'll answer questions.

[1248] This is one guy, you know, he's like, okay, so he's in the meeting, and he always used to hold his car, or used to smoke it before they meet down.

[1249] Before that was like, not cool.

[1250] Good Chicago guy.

[1251] No, no, no. I mean, I didn't work there with him, so it was all anecdotal.

[1252] Johnny could probably dodge more, but, so he's...

[1253] Got a cigar on his mouth.

[1254] He's like, okay.

[1255] So apparently we want to answer some questions.

[1256] So anyone got a question?

[1257] This like sheepish artist guy in the back is like, I have a question.

[1258] Actually, it was the cat that claimed he invented the weed.

[1259] Oh, the inventor of the weed.

[1260] He puts up his hand.

[1261] And Neil's like, okay, what's your question?

[1262] He's like, so, you know, in our contract, it says that, you know, you guys own the IP that we create, but, you know, I've been working on this thing at home and with my friends, but not in the office.

[1263] Right.

[1264] Just at home, and he starts explaining that he's been creating this thing.

[1265] Yeah, he smells bad.

[1266] About eight minutes into it, and Neil's just pacing, like, Neil's just some can -do dude.

[1267] He's just like, I signed shit.

[1268] Like, put people in the drink.

[1269] You know, that's what I do.

[1270] So, finally...

[1271] So, finally...

[1272] Finally, right.

[1273] So, would you...

[1274] Is that something that I would have to get a clearance approval from my manager to own that or what?

[1275] And Neil's like, you know what?

[1276] We own your fucking dreams.

[1277] Meeting's adjourned.

[1278] And he fucking walks out of the room.

[1279] I thought maybe he threw his cigar at that point.

[1280] Never wasted his cigar.

[1281] I mean, for me to hear these stories, being from EA's small -time can, I was like...

[1282] I think I'm in the wrong town.

[1283] I need to go.

[1284] But the food is really good.

[1285] Because that was the one thing you always heard.

[1286] When you weren't at Midway, you always heard, dude, they're run by the mob.

[1287] They're run by the mob or whatever.

[1288] And then Captain Salt Lake shows up and he's like, they're run by the mob.

[1289] Dude, I remember my first week.

[1290] This was crazy.

[1291] So there's this weird SNS deli.

[1292] It's like right around the corner, right?

[1293] And I'm sitting there like, I don't know anybody.

[1294] No one wants to go to lunch with me. I'm the new guy.

[1295] Everyone's like, fuck the new guy.

[1296] That lanky motherfucker.

[1297] I was lanky then.

[1298] Not fat.

[1299] Do you want to clarify any further?

[1300] We'll get there.

[1301] We'll get there.

[1302] And so I go to that.

[1303] I just walk in this deli.

[1304] And I'm like, yeah, just give me a sandwich or whatever.

[1305] And he's like, the guy's like, do you work at Midway?

[1306] And I'm like, yeah.

[1307] He's like, nice family organization.

[1308] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[1309] I'm starting to freak out.

[1310] I'm losing my shit.

[1311] And then he's like, yeah, my kids love some of those games they make.

[1312] I'm like, okay.

[1313] They're totally dying.

[1314] It was weird.

[1315] You always heard those rumors, and then when you get there, nothing.

[1316] Like, I never...

[1317] Not in our time, anyway.

[1318] Yeah, I mean, the thing that we would always hear is that Acclaim was the company that was run by the mob.

[1319] And that was always...

[1320] You guys hear anything about...

[1321] Well, I mean, Johnny was there during the mob years at Midway.

[1322] He's a main man. And the other thing I remember hearing about the other day is you bring up Neil DeCastro.

[1323] Like, that was the name.

[1324] Remember Fat Babies?

[1325] Yeah.

[1326] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1327] Hell in a sight.

[1328] Hell in a sight.

[1329] We want to...

[1330] Everyone's asking for a...

[1331] It's become Kotaku.

[1332] No, Neil Gaff.

[1333] Oh, yeah.

[1334] Neil Gaff.

[1335] You're right.

[1336] But you would see Neil MacArthur's name on there like every other day.

[1337] Just with some horrific story.

[1338] And I'd never met him.

[1339] I would never have thought of him as being like cigar smoking that kind of crazy.

[1340] He just seemed like fucking out of his mind.

[1341] From all these stories it would appear it's just like okay.

[1342] Minway is clearly run by fucking crates.

[1343] It wasn't the mob.

[1344] It's the fucking criminally insane.

[1345] Like who would run a company this way reading that stuff.

[1346] And obviously there's two sides to everything but.

[1347] That's the beauty of fat babies.

[1348] What was the concept that Neil came up with?

[1349] Sell millions of units?

[1350] Was that one, Johnny?

[1351] I don't know.

[1352] I don't remember.

[1353] There we go.

[1354] That's good.

[1355] That's the response everyone's hoping for.

[1356] Something about Catholic school girls on a bus with a gun.

[1357] Yeah, I remember.

[1358] Actually, Neil was a good guy.

[1359] No, Neil was a good guy.

[1360] It seemed like it just kind of maybe got sidetracked more and more.

[1361] In the years after that?

[1362] What were the first games that you worked on at Midway?

[1363] I think 20 of you guys.

[1364] When you were shipping back.

[1365] You were there earlier than any of us.

[1366] You were there for like eight, nine years, right?

[1367] Yeah, we were working on Blitz.

[1368] We were working on...

[1369] Which Blitz?

[1370] 2002?

[1371] Yeah, 2002.

[1372] Okay.

[1373] Talking to the mic.

[1374] I'm sorry.

[1375] Blitz 2002 and Red Card Soccer.

[1376] And we had a lot of things going on at that point.

[1377] But what was crazy is that there was a division between...

[1378] arcade and home console development.

[1379] Right.

[1380] And...

[1381] What's funny, and I look back at it now, and I think that if Midway hadn't made a $40 million investment in This Is Vegas, and if we had actually held on to everything, what's funny is that all the old school guys were brilliant about taking 50 cents for two minutes.

[1382] And so now we look back and we laugh at how crazy everything was.

[1383] If iOS and everything was happening with iPhone right now and all those old school Midway guys are still there, Midway would be killing it.

[1384] Yeah, I mean, I actually saw a talk where somebody said the original microtransaction was 25 cents, was a quarter.

[1385] And those guys mastered it.

[1386] And actually, one of the biggest things I learned from Mark and Ed and Brian and all those guys was how to draw the small compulsion loop.

[1387] of drawing that next quarter.

[1388] Like, it has to be great and compelling, but you have to want to continue at the end of that.

[1389] And that was definitely one of the, when Mark Cerny talked at Dice, was one of the things that he kind of...

[1390] Drew out of that talk, kind of talking about, you know, just the whole legacy of games starting back at arcades.

[1391] You know, he worked on Marvel Madness and all that stuff back in the day.

[1392] It was that exact thing.

[1393] It was just like, look at the Facebook games where the micro transactions fit.

[1394] Like, look at the iPhone games and Android games and kind of how those work.

[1395] Yeah, it really is this return to arcade days.

[1396] Yeah, it blows my mind again.

[1397] Like, if Midway was still around...

[1398] I mean, there would be the most crazy apps out there.

[1399] It's just like legendary, right?

[1400] That's the weirdest thing about working there is you start off and it's like, oh.

[1401] I'm a lead programmer on Slugfest or Blitz or whatever.

[1402] Oh, Mark Turmel's got some feedback for you.

[1403] It's like, Mark fucking Turmel, right?

[1404] Dude is great.

[1405] Just incredible game after incredible game after incredible game.

[1406] It's like, I guess I'll just say yes and thank you.

[1407] It's like, what are you going to do?

[1408] It's like, I'm really going to say anything to Sal or those guys.

[1409] They're just like, they invented that stuff, and so you just got to listen.

[1410] It made for some awkward times, though, because, like, you know, as you, like, progress up to, like, eventually I was the studio TD there.

[1411] And ostensibly, like, in charge of, like, all the projects, technical direction on all the projects.

[1412] But, like, the MK guys have been making that game since, like, before I was in the industry.

[1413] Like, what am I really going to tell them about making MK?

[1414] Just, like, just get it out of their way.

[1415] Let them do their thing.

[1416] And so it made stuff like that a little bit.

[1417] It's not that they wouldn't listen.

[1418] Like, I think those guys were super.

[1419] good about all that stuff it just made titles weird at that company because like these guys have been there forever everyone knows you're not going to tell them boo because they've earned it right yeah and it just made stuff like that really weird but um just so much you can learn and yeah really smart dudes i remember rolling into george gomez's office once and uh we had offices representing each other and i'm like george i got a question for you so the original spy hunter When you guys outsourced the motorcycle models to China, how many people did that take and what was the rough cost?

[1420] He just loved the whole outsourcing thing.

[1421] He's like, back in my day, it was four guys and a weekend.

[1422] And to work with all those guys, it was humbling.

[1423] I mean, Johnny spent the most time with all those old guys that did a fantastic job.

[1424] And it was great to interact with them and joke about that stuff.

[1425] Because they just love the new stuff.

[1426] They're like...

[1427] crazy 120 person teams back in my day you know six guys but that's that's what's so charming about all of the like ios development android all that kind of stuff right it's bad because it's those same cats right so if you could imagine like they're not even being, you know, these platforms, right?

[1428] I mean, these are the guys that, like, are pioneering everything.

[1429] So it's so super cool.

[1430] I mean, I remember geeking out all the time with George, like, so is there a helicopter in Spy Hunter?

[1431] He's like, ah, we made it up.

[1432] Like, is there a 12th key terminal to get into the Pleasure Dome?

[1433] He's like, no. Actually, we put that in there.

[1434] We never put the key actually in the game so people keep putting more money in, you know?

[1435] You know, like that kind of stuff.

[1436] Hot scoops.

[1437] Hot scoops.

[1438] Hot scoops.

[1439] You just blew my fucking mind right there.

[1440] Tremelo's going to take that to the grave.

[1441] No, it wasn't even like that.

[1442] I mean, but like those were like the pioneers of our industry, you know, for...

[1443] you know, the most part.

[1444] And it's like, you know, and Eugene Jarvis, Robotron, right?

[1445] I mean, talk about brilliant and addictive at the same time.

[1446] I mean, just, and that spawned Smash TV.

[1447] And like, I just actually, you know, admittedly and stupidly finished Black Ops, right?

[1448] I'm like months and months and months late, which is why it's stupid.

[1449] I did Dead Ops, right?

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] And I'm like, damn, this is like Smash TV.

[1452] This is dope as fuck, right?

[1453] And then I was talking to people at Disney about it, and they're like, oh, Dead Ops is so cool.

[1454] I'm like, it's just like Smash TV.

[1455] And they're like, what's Smash TV?

[1456] And I'm like, oh, man. It's like Jump Shores, but with zombies.

[1457] Right, exactly.

[1458] No, God damn it.

[1459] No, it's not.

[1460] It's like people don't, you know, like you have to know your history in order to innovate, you know, moving forward.

[1461] Yeah, I mean, you know, that's.

[1462] I look back at, you know, my time, like, my misspent youth in arcade, well, misspent maybe, maybe not considering how it all ended up for me, but spending all that time in arcades, like, you know, Midway and Atari, who, you know, like, would later go on to kind of fall under the Midway umbrella, like, those were the guys that were making the games that mattered to me growing up.

[1463] So it was always really interesting to, like, kind of follow the Midway name through the years.

[1464] And even as it started to go really, even as Freaky Flyers was coming out and they were like, well, we're going to remake Defender.

[1465] And I said, well, good luck with that.

[1466] You know, you kind of stood by and watched it all unfold, like hoping, like, oh, these guys are totally going to turn around because it's fucking Midway.

[1467] They own all these great names.

[1468] It's like, especially with all the...

[1469] All the Milpita stuff, like all the Atari stuff falling under that umbrella.

[1470] At one point, Midway owned the rights to RBI baseball.

[1471] That's true.

[1472] The research that was done recently, right?

[1473] Yes, exactly.

[1474] So I recently fell down this horrible hole.

[1475] So I realized that Namco was putting out a baseball game on the 3DS.

[1476] And they've been continuing that series that was getting translated over here as RBI baseball for years and years and years.

[1477] And I was like, man, someone needs to just localize this game, put it out as RBI baseball.

[1478] And then I just fell into this, like, horrible research hole of, like, who the fuck owns RBI baseball?

[1479] Yeah, right, exactly.

[1480] XBLA game that was announced by some company that's not even making games two years ago.

[1481] I think, actually, I think what's most exciting is that there was a little bit of, I think you actually broke a story, Jeff, about Blitz.

[1482] With EA.

[1483] Obviously EA has picked up the rights to that stuff with Jam coming back.

[1484] It sounds like they are working on a Blitz.

[1485] Quietly, all I had heard was that they went in and got all the sports licenses out of Midway when it was in bankruptcy.

[1486] Jam, I think, was great.

[1487] It's great to see Jam being translated to all these different platforms.

[1488] Blitz would be awesome, too.

[1489] It's really exciting.

[1490] mellows over there exactly like shepherd these projects exactly yeah and really do that stuff like that's It's heartwarming in a way.

[1491] I think it's more heartwarming now that Jams came out and was really good.

[1492] Because when we first heard the comments, we were all like, what's up on the table?

[1493] And being an XEA guy, I'm like, they've got to destroy everything.

[1494] And then Jams are like, I don't know, I kind of get it.

[1495] It's awesome.

[1496] And Mark's there.

[1497] It was definitely one of those things where talking to Trey Smith, who was, I guess, the producer on Jams.

[1498] As soon as I started talking to him, he very clearly got it.

[1499] There's something about games like NBA.

[1500] We have a fucking NBA GM machine here.

[1501] As soon as you are talking to someone who gets that, you can tell immediately.

[1502] You should actually come see that.

[1503] You're like starting to like, okay, let me show you actually the stuff that is really cool about this game.

[1504] As opposed to these people that are just walking up and going like, I can dunk.

[1505] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1506] I remember actually he demoed the game for me and I was such a huge NBA Jam fan.

[1507] And I actually, he demoed the game for me and I was like, sweet.

[1508] And there was always a moment when someone was coming down for a dunk where you could push them.

[1509] And so I actually tested it to see if it was still in there.

[1510] And it was.

[1511] And I was like, you know, I am like probably the most hardcore you can get with Jam and with Showtime and Hangtime and all those games.

[1512] I'm like, that's still in there.

[1513] And he's like, you know, we still have a nod for all the even like old school hardcore fans of it.

[1514] And so that like made me feel really great because they were honoring, you know.

[1515] The guys that I looked up to as mentors.

[1516] Yeah, I think one of the favorite things, like, those games, one of the things that sets them apart is, like, the attention to the tiniest details and what the loving care and the craftsmanship got put in.

[1517] Like, I remember I was helping in between, it must have been Blitz 1 and Blitz 2, I was helping Abolish 2 out, and they put that 2 -on -2 mode in there, full court, and Turmel, he's, like, talking, he's like, the camera has to be, like, showtime.

[1518] I'm like, okay, cool, whatever.

[1519] And I code it up, and I do the thing, and he's like, this is...

[1520] no, this is not even, the next day when I get to the office, there's a fucking Showtime cabinet in my office.

[1521] Right.

[1522] And he comes over and he's just like, you look at it here and you make it.

[1523] Play this kind of game.

[1524] Right.

[1525] Play my fucking game.

[1526] Come see me on my couch.

[1527] Yeah, it was, just stuff like that was crazy.

[1528] Like, you want to make it like Showtime?

[1529] And here's the cabinet, right?

[1530] It's effing crazy.

[1531] Well, there's something to be said for when you're making these games now, next gen sort of reports of old games and sort of want to polish all the, not glitches, because they weren't glitches, they were just sort of like what made the game, like the nicks and dents that made it.

[1532] it like a cool game and not like a super robotic experience.

[1533] I think there's probably a really strong desire for people who maybe didn't grow up with that game when you're looking at QA to be like, well, you can't really shove a dude who's about to dunk on your face.

[1534] If you did that in real life, you would get a knee in the nose and you'd be dead.

[1535] It's like, well, no, but you could do it in the old games.

[1536] If it's not in here, then anyone who's buying this for nostalgia purposes is going to be like, well, fuck these guys.

[1537] They ruined NBA Jam.

[1538] They don't want to play this game.

[1539] So is that something like growing up with the guys that grew up in Chicago?

[1540] Were you very aware that Midway was there kind of making games?

[1541] By the time I was in high school, I was pretty aware of it.

[1542] When I was in arcade times, I sort of had no history context for what was going on.

[1543] You were like three or something.

[1544] I wasn't born.

[1545] Yeah, that's right.

[1546] You didn't have an awareness of the brand stuff.

[1547] It was just you went to the arcades.

[1548] Enjoyed the game.

[1549] The brand was NBA Jam, not necessarily that Midway made NBA Jam, but you knew they made NFL Blitz.

[1550] They had that sports pedigree.

[1551] The moment you saw another game, like, in that line, your friends had probably told you about it, and then...

[1552] Well, there wasn't, like, arcade...

[1553] I mean, there wasn't arcade criticism in the way there was that we now have, like...

[1554] No metacritics for arcades.

[1555] And so, you know, like, it was a stamp of...

[1556] Cyberball only got an 84, so we're not going to make a secret.

[1557] You didn't have to walk in the machine and start slotting in $60.

[1558] You put 25 cents, you hit it, boom, I walk.

[1559] It was still fun, you know?

[1560] So the...

[1561] But, I mean, like, it was the stamp of...

[1562] credibility.

[1563] It wasn't necessarily a step that the game would be awesome, but you would give it a couple of horrors, you would give it a chance because of that.

[1564] The fact that it was there.

[1565] Right.

[1566] And then you find out that it's actually like, oh, it's like the major games company in the town that you're from.

[1567] Well, that's sort of fucked up.

[1568] They're really close.

[1569] Everyone's in some warehouse in LA, you know, getting these things cranked out.

[1570] I mean, there was a while there for me when Mortal Kombat was really getting big, like MK1, MK2.

[1571] You always hear about an arcade called Diversions.

[1572] oh no yeah oh my god when they would do the tests yeah I was in Chicago so we would get like the different arcades in the Chicago suburbs and stuff like would get those versions updated regularly but like I would get there were no texts or anything back then but so it would just be like your friends would tell you like dude like Chuck E. Cheese has got like they have a test version of Mortal Kombat 3 it's like Shut the fuck up.

[1573] We're going over there.

[1574] He's like, I'm six.

[1575] Get on my bike.

[1576] Back before there was no way to verify rumors and stuff like that, the biggest thing was in Mortal Kombat, it was either two or three, but it was that one where Sonya is chained up in the back with Shao Kahn, and there's a way to break her out.

[1577] And I remember the people at the arcade telling us, oh yeah, we got another version coming, Sonya, you're going to be able to break her out.

[1578] that was not true.

[1579] With those versions, you didn't know.

[1580] Like, there was always so many...

[1581] Like, that was one of my favorite parts of going to the arcade was seeing, like, the new test version.

[1582] I think that ended up being, like, the most devious part of, like, Midway's corner -sucking strategy.

[1583] As you think about, like, MK2, like, after, you know, this was the rise of the internet was happening at the same time.

[1584] People in news groups posting, like, here's all the fatalities.

[1585] Or, you know, like, I was...

[1586] At this point, I was still in high school, but I just wasn't going all that much.

[1587] There was a MK2 machine at the Pizza Hut.

[1588] So I would just get on Usenet, look at these lists of moves, and go like, I'm going to go check all this shit out.

[1589] Then print it out and go to the arcade.

[1590] Actually, you would go, what character am I going to go to the arcade with and play as?

[1591] and memorize all their moves so that I can, when I finally beat somebody, do the fatality, do the combos, whatever it is.

[1592] And then they went, and in one of the revision updates, changed all the fatalities.

[1593] Right, of course.

[1594] Because they had all gotten out there.

[1595] Of course, yeah.

[1596] I was like, Ed and John's big like, well, this is what we're doing.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] And I remember it just being heartbreaking.

[1599] It was like the worst, you're just like, why would you do that?

[1600] Diversions, Diversions was like, for me, in the time, like, that was, like, when you're ready, actually, to, like, step your game up, that's where you go.

[1601] And so, there's actually a couple of cats that still work on Mortal Kombat to this day that were, like, the pros at Diversions, right?

[1602] Brian LeBaron, Paulo Garcia, and Eddie Ferrer, and Lex, too.

[1603] And I don't know Lex's last name, so excuse me, right?

[1604] But those cats were the pros, right?

[1605] And those guys actually were playing arcade games and were the best, right?

[1606] Like, you step up the machine, you play against one of those guys, and it was almost like Tron, like A2, right?

[1607] It's like, you play it against those guys.

[1608] Yeah, full circle.

[1609] You play against one of those guys, and you get your ass kicked, right?

[1610] And those guys were the ultimate.

[1611] And you know what's so great is that Ed and John, right, when they were doing that stuff, they brought those guys into the Midway family, you know?

[1612] And so those guys still to this day work on Mortal Kombat.

[1613] And that's actually what makes Chicago game development, for me at least, so still heartwarming, right?

[1614] It's like those cats still contribute to the game and are still a part of it and still care and have heart into what...

[1615] There's a lot of loyalty.

[1616] Yeah, what Mortal Kombat is as a brand, as a franchise, right?

[1617] Well, how did you get your job there, Johnny?

[1618] Playing jam.

[1619] I mean, that was my big thing.

[1620] And that was one of the last cats that, like, yeah, I called Mark Turmel, like, 26 times on the phone.

[1621] How did you find his number back then?

[1622] Actually, it was on there.

[1623] It was on NewsNet.

[1624] No, but it was when they would roll the credits eventually, right?

[1625] It was, like, lead program was the first credit of Mark Turmel.

[1626] So I, like, you know, I knew they were in Chicago because of Mortal Kombat.

[1627] It was, like, 411 Midway.

[1628] Right.

[1629] And they gave me a number.

[1630] And so I called and I called and I called.

[1631] I called 26 times.

[1632] And finally I got a phone call back.

[1633] Like I was just like, I just want to do an internship.

[1634] Right.

[1635] I know.

[1636] Right.

[1637] Like old school stalker style.

[1638] Right.

[1639] Like kind of weird.

[1640] Back when stalking was cool.

[1641] This is back when you could stalk.

[1642] Yeah.

[1643] Pre like.

[1644] Star 6ix9ine.

[1645] Yeah, exactly.

[1646] You earned it.

[1647] You were going for it.

[1648] You filled up the tape in the answering machine.

[1649] Right, exactly.

[1650] And I remember the guy that brought me in, he looked at me and he's like, you've worked in an arcade.

[1651] You have run a small video game FAQ site.

[1652] You know, pre -game FAQs and all that kind of stuff, right?

[1653] He's like, you're completely unqualified to work here.

[1654] And he's like, but...

[1655] rips up my resume in front of my face and my little suit coat.

[1656] He's like, Mark Terrell wants you to work here because you've been persistent about it, and so we're going to give you a shot.

[1657] And that, to me, was like the same thing with Brian, Paulo, and Eddie, and Lex, right?

[1658] It was like, I will do anything I absolutely possibly can.

[1659] That's an amazing story.

[1660] Who knew that faithful decision would eventually close midway down?

[1661] Right.

[1662] Right.

[1663] Some jerk.

[1664] He basically let the plague in.

[1665] Right.

[1666] Just like into the industry.

[1667] You were such an asshole.

[1668] I just gave him a heartwarming story.

[1669] I'm talking to him.

[1670] It was a heartwarming story.

[1671] That was amazing and then that was amazing.

[1672] You brought that down real quick.

[1673] I am so pissed.

[1674] Come on, JV.

[1675] You want to hook it up?

[1676] No, fuck you.

[1677] Come on, man. But yeah, I mean, you know, when I was kind of first getting started on my first year, I started a print magazine that kind of went nowhere.

[1678] Which print magazine?

[1679] It's called Blaster.

[1680] That's about three issues.

[1681] And then I guess the story was, which I was unable to verify so allegedly, that the guys that started the magazine who had gotten a bunch of investment from the Sound Blaster people ran off with all of this.

[1682] Sound Blaster.

[1683] Sound Blaster 16.

[1684] So, you know, I learned to be bitter when I was about 19.

[1685] I got out of my first magazine job and I was like, man, fuck this business.

[1686] And I ended up, I was in school for a little bit, which I needed because I was the worst writer in the world.

[1687] I was writing this magazine, and I just had no business even having a job at that point.

[1688] But then there was an arcade show in Reno, and I heard that Mortal Kombat 3 was going to be there.

[1689] And I was like, I'm dropping out of this class and this school stuff and going to play MK3 and hang out with the Game Informer guys, and we're going to drink in Reno and play.

[1690] MK3.

[1691] So, yeah, it was a super early test version.

[1692] It was, like, the first...

[1693] It wasn't the first.

[1694] It was, like, the first time I, like, saw, like, Ed kind of get up and talk.

[1695] Like, actually, back at CES in the day, they had Ed and John signing autographs at the Midway booth.

[1696] As they should have.

[1697] Yeah.

[1698] And it was, like, the only...

[1699] And also, like, they had, like, Dan Pesina, like, some of the characters from Mortal Kombat there, like, in costume doing stuff.

[1700] And, you know, it's just, like, this is...

[1701] Ridiculous.

[1702] Even then, even as much of an MK fan as I was back then, I couldn't pull the trigger on, I'm going to wait in line and get some autographs.

[1703] Right.

[1704] It was too far gone.

[1705] But you'll do it now.

[1706] Yeah, now.

[1707] Now you've got Ed Boone's email address and home phone number.

[1708] You guys are down.

[1709] Weirdly enough, they actually sent out an autographed lithograph for MK Deadly Alliance.

[1710] That's like an Ed Boone sign frame thing.

[1711] It's totally the first thing I moved into my house.

[1712] Like, hanging above the fireplace.

[1713] Like, all right, cool.

[1714] It's kind of like a joke in time, but it's totally still there five years later.

[1715] It's so funny because, like, all those cats, it's like, whenever you're around them, it's like, you know, it's a weird thing I don't think a lot of people get in the industry because, at least for me, right, you look up to these guys, you know?

[1716] I mean, it's just like, these are the game gods, you know?

[1717] Eugene Jarvis, Mark Turmel.

[1718] Ed Boon, John Tobias.

[1719] I mean, these guys are the game gods.

[1720] And to be around them, listen to them talk, and then be friends with them and everything, it's like you just learn so much.

[1721] And just like every single day to be able to work with all those guys and hear them say everything from like a funny joke to actually like a good nugget for game design.

[1722] is just priceless.

[1723] And it's something that you don't get nowadays in game developers.

[1724] I was going to say, obviously those guys were of a generation.

[1725] Yeah.

[1726] And George Gomez is a guy, actually, I should throw in there as well.

[1727] I didn't, but I should.

[1728] Who are the new game gods?

[1729] Who matters?

[1730] Everyone kind of looks to the guys that are getting a lot of...

[1731] a lot of attention from the press and stuff like that, you know, guys like Cliff Bleszinski, Tim Schafer, I was like, do you think that they fill that same role?

[1732] Or has game development changed so much that they're really, you can't just go to one guy forever?

[1733] I think, I think for that, for that decade, like I would say, Each decade, it's a new group.

[1734] Like, I think this decade probably Notch, Jonathan Blow, you know, Twisted Pixel guys.

[1735] I mean, there's a new school sort of, you know, decade of people that are inspirational.

[1736] Now, can they...

[1737] Well, I mean, the real important thing about the guys in Midway is that they kept doing it.

[1738] They kept killing it for years and years and years and decades.

[1739] And so, if the new guys continue, I mean, Cliffy B is a perfect example.

[1740] Like, as long as he keeps cranking out fantastic games, then people will, you know, he'll still be notable and be the new guy.

[1741] I think the thing then is that they were making, I mean, like, in terms of game design...

[1742] innovation at that point making blockbuster games was a design innovation it's over like making games that appeal to the masses you can speak to everybody and be compelling both in a quarter based way and also in a home based way was like was its own set of sort of platform based innovation and now the question is are people making blockbusters the innovators and the game gods or is it Jonathan Blow is people making indie games by themselves in small teams of five is it The fucking Angry Burns physics engine dude.

[1743] Like, who is, you know, who is the guy really who's driving?

[1744] It's so funny now because it's like it all comes down to who's making the money, right?

[1745] And that's what's getting like, you know, because the video game industry is blowing up so much, right?

[1746] It's like, all right, so who's making the money?

[1747] Honestly, deep down, like, and those guys are like, bam, bam, bam, right?

[1748] But at the same time, back in the day when we were doing it, it's like those guys were the game gods.

[1749] It was still small enough that you actually cared and they could give you...

[1750] And a lot of those guys have to be very multifunctional.

[1751] The guys that we're kind of looking up to now as these game gods, in a lot of cases, aren't they just really good managers?

[1752] Or are they true visionary?

[1753] That's why the classic game track they've had at GDC this year has been so fascinating to watch because you get people like Jordan Mechner breaking down making Prince of Persia and how he hand -rotoscoped the animation, shooting his brother jumping, spending $11 ,000 on a camera and then immediately sending it back because there was a 30 -day guarantee because he couldn't afford it.

[1754] And that stuff, and watching that contrasted with, you know, a talk with Cliff Blazinski, it's all changed so much, and it's not even the fault of those guys.

[1755] These teams have scoped out to such a degree.

[1756] But it's become a team sport, right?

[1757] I mean, like, it's become full, and it's always been a team effort, but it's now become a thing where you're looking for Phil Jackson, not Michael Jordan, right?

[1758] You're looking for the guy who's coaching a crew of people.

[1759] Nice Chicago.

[1760] Right?

[1761] Don't leave me hanging.

[1762] I didn't know.

[1763] I thought you were going to punch me in the face.

[1764] at this point but it doesn't mean that they're not visionaries because it's probably the guys who are in that first meeting and then they're in the last meeting where they're shipping the game and that guidance along the process is important it's what keeps the industry going and with things being as they are where every game is 30 million dollars it's the guys who you're willing to bet on right it's the guys who you're going to bet the farm on that's why like the guys that do it like cross eras are amazing because it's like you got like So when it was like just three people on a team and all it was was mechanics and controls.

[1765] And they could do it then.

[1766] And then you got guys like Ed Boon who are leading now a team of just huge team just getting it done still.

[1767] And that whole effing time, right, he goes from just programming, like doing code, like picking out frames of animation to use.

[1768] So now he's directing a team of hundreds of people or however big it is to deliver the same, the vision the same way he wants it done.

[1769] That's why he's like super amazing.

[1770] And all this group of like superstars, it's like.

[1771] And I think the small guys, I think, are the ones who are making huge innovations in games.

[1772] I think that the guys that we're talking about, these sort of team leader guys, are making huge innovations in entertainment.

[1773] Those are the guys who we're seeing as, like, the leaders of making experiences that can speak to anyone.

[1774] Like, the guys behind fucking Kinect is, like, what?

[1775] That's not, that's not really, like, a huge game.

[1776] Right.

[1777] Exactly.

[1778] Like, that's a crazy, that's a crazy idea.

[1779] Exactly.

[1780] But, but, you know, but the guys making these, you know, an iPhone game, like, the 13, like, 14 -year -old kid who finally toppled.

[1781] Right.

[1782] And took over the top of the iPhone chart with his, like, physics game that he made by himself.

[1783] I saw that.

[1784] That's crazy.

[1785] I was so happy for him, man. And so that's the thing where it's, like, that kid's making.

[1786] little game and he's not making necessarily a huge entertainment experience to become a movie in two years at the same time though that really freaked me out yeah it's fucked up they're coming for you I'm not 14 and I've not done that no it's not even like that it's like is it that much the wild west that a guy who has zero experience can do that I think on certain platforms, absolutely.

[1787] I think it's awesome, don't get me wrong, right?

[1788] But at the same time, it's also scary, right?

[1789] Because it's like, you know, here I am and everybody, right, that have worked in the game industry for a very long time, and a 14 -year -old kid comes along and is like, hey, yo, I just made this.

[1790] I just totally kicked your ass.

[1791] Yes, and that's awesome.

[1792] Hire that dude and get him to make the next Tron.

[1793] I mean, I think that's what I think that's what I was talking about, right?

[1794] Where he was like, it's about quality.

[1795] And I think that what he was saying got misconstrued and probably like twisted the way they wanted it to be.

[1796] But I think he was like, don't forget that it's really important to make high quality entertainment.

[1797] That's what makes people like and have liked and has expanded our industry the way it is.

[1798] It's all about high -quality entertainment, so don't forget that.

[1799] Even though the 99 -cent games are seeming like the freemium and free -to -play, don't forget you should be able to charge for things that you're proud of.

[1800] People will pay for good entertainment that you're proud, but also they have to be polished to the max.

[1801] That's the Japanese mantra.

[1802] They spend all that time making sure that everything is covered.

[1803] I think that was kind of his thing.

[1804] You should be able to charge good money for good entertainment.

[1805] But that's such a platform agnostic argument, right?

[1806] It is.

[1807] That's the weird thing now.

[1808] And Cliff had a slide today in his talk where he was showing, I think he stole it from, he credited it.

[1809] He stole it from somebody's slide where it was like, you know, in 1992, here were the platforms people were competing on.

[1810] And it was like, I mean, there were like three or four platforms.

[1811] It was like, here's what's going on now.

[1812] And it was like 70 different platforms where you had like Microsoft and Microsoft -wise.

[1813] Xbox, Xbox 360, Kinect.

[1814] And it was like all these branches.

[1815] And he said, basically, at the end of the day, the problem we have is it's the Wild West because a game like Angry Birds can come out on the iPhone and everyone in the console is like, well, fuck that.

[1816] We don't need to worry about that shit.

[1817] That's its own, like, sort of segregated ghetto.

[1818] 30 million units.

[1819] Right.

[1820] And then it's just like, but now we all rush towards that and go, so what is that doing?

[1821] We should make that.

[1822] Well, then everyone jumps on.

[1823] Right.

[1824] But it's different.

[1825] It's not supposed to be the same thing.

[1826] And what I think Iwata was talking about is like, you should be able to charge $60 for a console game that's...

[1827] 20 hours, but it doesn't mean you have to make it 40 hours to push away from a two -second experience over and over again.

[1828] It's just a different thing.

[1829] Embrace what you're making for the medium you're making it for.

[1830] I think that, for me personally, the thing that I'm most excited about, all mobile and social, because everyone's talking about that, like, oh, social's a big bubble, like, oh, mobile this, mobile that, right?

[1831] The thing that I'm most excited about with everyone that's doing mobile and social is that, whether they realize it or not, they're driving people into the video game industry.

[1832] And so, like, it'll be smoking wild crack in no time.

[1833] That's what I'm saying.

[1834] Like, so people are so threatened.

[1835] They're like, should we be doing this?

[1836] Should we be doing that?

[1837] Like, please let everyone do what they're doing.

[1838] Because you know what?

[1839] Like, it's eventually those guys are just getting into mobile.

[1840] They're just getting into like social.

[1841] They're going to get into what a lot of us are making.

[1842] Right.

[1843] We're like the 20, 30 hour experiences.

[1844] So I'm like a huge fan.

[1845] of all mobile and social, please grab everyone in the entire world and bring them into buying video games, buying consoles.

[1846] Like, absolutely.

[1847] I completely embrace that.

[1848] I think people get freaked out.

[1849] Go, go, go.

[1850] I know, everyone wants to talk about it, right?

[1851] The thing is, the first publisher is going to stop and just...

[1852] Stay back and take a really holistic approach.

[1853] It's going to be the one that wins.

[1854] Because right now they're all being very reactive.

[1855] This is making so much money.

[1856] Let's go over there.

[1857] If we don't have a Dragon Age Facebook game, this whole thing's doomed.

[1858] And then they do it and they're like, that cost us $4 million.

[1859] What are we getting back from?

[1860] Is it really building?

[1861] Are they really looking at it in terms of, like, we're making a game?

[1862] Or are they looking at it in terms of, like, we're building awareness?

[1863] That's honestly one of the biggest frustrations of being a publisher.

[1864] Nah, we've done like mobile stuff, we've done iPhone stuff and things like that.

[1865] Wasn't there some sort of like Rock Band symbol?

[1866] Oh, Rock Band Icons, which is in no way similar to Bejewel.

[1867] It was sort of like an outsourced thing that MTV Games was putting together.

[1868] The nice thing for that was actually it had Rock Band network tracks, some of the like undiscovered bands as the background audio.

[1869] So as you were matching icons, you heard some music and could find out about some groups.

[1870] But it was just sort of like, oh, there'll be some Rock Band icons coming on the screen, you match them up, you think about the game Raph Band.

[1871] Same thing with, you know, we did a thing with Pepsi.

[1872] We're on the caps of a bunch of Pepsi bottles across the country.

[1873] And it's like, that is good brand awareness, but it doesn't mean that you can develop...

[1874] a shitty game with good brand awareness and have it be a compelling experience if people want to play for more than five minutes, which is the danger when people start thinking, well, Facebook games aren't something we need to worry about because they're in a different area, where it's like, yeah, but they have the hook mechanic where people are coming to them, and I play the shit out of every PopGap game.

[1875] Like, I don't want to play Zuma, Zuma, Revenge all the way to the end, but I played it all the way to the end, even though I had to take a sick day off of work to finish it on, like, cold medicine, and I just played it until it was done.

[1876] But it's like that game is hooky as shit.

[1877] I played it until I was finished.

[1878] Yeah, but like PopCap is different from, and their games are different from like what Zynga's doing.

[1879] Oh, totally.

[1880] Yeah.

[1881] You know, like, Cityville, right?

[1882] Like, it finally took someone to, like, Adam or Dave slap me across the face and be like, why are you playing this game as much as you are?

[1883] And I'm like, I don't know.

[1884] Compulsion.

[1885] You know what's great about it?

[1886] I interviewed the Dragon Quest creator, Yuji Horii, a couple of weeks ago, and I asked him, you know, what are you playing right now?

[1887] Like, oh, then, you know, Dragon Quest kind of consumes your life.

[1888] Are you doing anything else?

[1889] It's like, I'm addicted to Cityville.

[1890] Yeah.

[1891] And...

[1892] He was like, I'm not going to tell you what my Facebook name is because I don't want everyone to add me. But I think the thing is gamers and some developers get scared because they think, well, that's where everyone's going.

[1893] We should go that way.

[1894] And we're not going to be able to make the games that we want to make anymore.

[1895] But if people come in, maybe they'll play the games that we talk about and are passionate about, but maybe they won't.

[1896] But it's not all going to disappear.

[1897] Just because Cityville is doing really well, Farmville is doing really well, Frontierville is doing really well.

[1898] doesn't mean that Dragon Age and Mass Effect are going to disappear.

[1899] And I think that's the knee -jerk reaction, is thinking because those games are getting popular and the attention that the games that you grew up on...

[1900] aren't going to exist anymore.

[1901] I mean, again, I'll say this, right?

[1902] Like, the huge divide is that there are so many people intimidated and scareded.

[1903] Scared, scareded.

[1904] Scared by.

[1905] Scareded.

[1906] Yeah, sorry.

[1907] Yeah.

[1908] Terrified.

[1909] Don't be scared.

[1910] Like, iOS, Android, and Facebook is like, oh, what are we going to do?

[1911] And the entire industry is going to change.

[1912] Like, no. You don't realize that for everyone that's actually playing your game, they're also playing console games.

[1913] And you know what?

[1914] You should look at it as a blessing that everyone else that they're bringing in.

[1915] Because if you only get a small fraction, that's great.

[1916] I don't mind, right?

[1917] Because eventually, it's like watching YouTube videos and then watching a movie, right?

[1918] It's like, eventually, these guys are going to get into seeing the quality.

[1919] It really is kind of the beautiful thing about how all this stuff is changing.

[1920] And it's been interesting for me over the years because...

[1921] As mobile rose, as Trip Hawkins and Digital Chocolate kind of got out there pre -iPhone and started spending all this money on just mobile development and brew and all those, J2ME and all that stuff, you have a businessman come to you someday and go, why aren't we covering this stuff?

[1922] And you say, well, because the audience that we're currently catering to...

[1923] is not necessarily interested in this stuff.

[1924] And also, the audience that's playing this stuff doesn't read our site.

[1925] It's your addressable market.

[1926] Yeah, exactly.

[1927] It's like, you know, who out there wants to read reviews of 99 -cent blackjack games?

[1928] It's like, how much time are you going to spend doing a round -up?

[1929] It's like, here's the best five -card stud poker on your phone.

[1930] Is there a naked woman on the side of it or not?

[1931] Yeah, that's the game.

[1932] Or on our phone.

[1933] Maybe the phone you have, except now everyone has the same two phones.

[1934] And that's less of a problem now.

[1935] But it's definitely...

[1936] You know, I had to get up to speed on a lot of the pre -iPhone mobile stuff as a result of that stuff.

[1937] And it was a really interesting study in terms of just like, well, this is not something we should cover, but I'm glad that I at least went through this because, you know, when the iPhone kind of broke and got really big, I was in more of a position to kind of see how that stuff was changing.

[1938] But in terms of that platform going from a wild west there down to like, you know, two or three dominant platform holders, which isn't that different than console games where you have two or three dominant platform holders.

[1939] From my perspective, I think that for traditional console game developers who are scared about this space and scared about making Titanic games versus a 99 cent one second mechanic over and over again.

[1940] Isn't that what XBLA and PSN are for?

[1941] Isn't that what Double Fine is doing right now?

[1942] I finished Bulletstorm before I came out here, but the last two games I finished were Stacking and Costume Quest.

[1943] I played them in a weekend, in a day, and I felt like I had a really good time and a good experience with it.

[1944] I didn't feel like, well, if I end up getting swamped with work and I can't dedicate 40 hours to this, I'm not really going to get my $60, so why would I pay for it?

[1945] You're at least accomplishing something.

[1946] I spent $15 for 5 hours, which isn't actually the same breakdown, but I was much happier.

[1947] with that.

[1948] What was your first 30 hours of going through the intro of Stacking like?

[1949] It was a little confusing until I found that character could identify everybody.

[1950] I was laughing because I called Adam on the phone.

[1951] Actually, no, you called me on the phone.

[1952] He's like, what are you doing?

[1953] I'm like, I'm playing Stacking.

[1954] And he's like, what's going on?

[1955] I'm like, it's still the opening FMV.

[1956] Still trying to find why this guy's talking.

[1957] It was like the opening movie.

[1958] It's very deliberately paced.

[1959] To achieve that silent film look, they had to kind of do that.

[1960] Definitely, I found myself going, can I just skip through this stuff?

[1961] I've become very impatient as a player.

[1962] He said it.

[1963] Pac -Man's the same way, though.

[1964] The breakout competition that no one really expected was the Pac -Man Championship Edition.

[1965] It became this furious Xbox Live Friends list fight between everyone and Giant Bomb and the universe.

[1966] And I played the shit out of that game.

[1967] And it was not just Pac -Man ported over to XBLA.

[1968] It was actually some cool design decisions that were made, but I spent money on that.

[1969] It's another one of the things that's really exciting to see the rise of the download game.

[1970] the return of the small team game as a result.

[1971] It's another one of those things that kind of ties back to the arcade days where you're like, these guys can have a vision and execute on it.

[1972] And it's not always great, obviously.

[1973] There's plenty of download games that just come out looking like junk.

[1974] The interesting thing about this week at GDC has been the theme that I found talking to all the publishers is like a big sort of sad trombone.

[1975] I mean, they're all like...

[1976] stuff, guys, and then everyone else I'm finding, yeah, they're like, what do we do?

[1977] Do we do social?

[1978] Do we do mobile?

[1979] How much of each do we do?

[1980] Where are we moving?

[1981] And all the people like my company and the independent developers are like, I love this.

[1982] This is the rock solid stuff because it is kind of Wild West.

[1983] We're defining what the future is going to be and publishers just aren't built to be able to handle the digital content and so they're frustrated.

[1984] But it's like independent movies and blockbuster movies, right?

[1985] Like you go to Warner Brothers and they can't publish.

[1986] And they have indie movie arms, maybe, but you're not going to get a breakout, a little bit of sunshine thing.

[1987] I think it's a chicken and the egg thing, too, because a lot of it is like, oh, the market's changing, consumers are getting different games or whatever.

[1988] But I think a lot of that has to do with that it's not so much, I mean, that's obviously part of it, but...

[1989] developers have changed.

[1990] Like, when I grew up, I'd buy Counter -64 games, the Archon, I'd buy all the EA stuff with, like, the record album covers, and I'd hang that shit on my wall.

[1991] I had, like, the EA We See Far, their poster on my wall with Bill Budge and Ann Westphal and all that.

[1992] And, like, my goal is to work at EA.

[1993] And, like, now do you think, like, I don't know the Super Meat Boy guys at all, but do you think they want to fucking work at EA?

[1994] No. There's no fucking way, right?

[1995] Like, they want to do their own thing.

[1996] The small groups, it's so identifiable when you say Notch in Minecraft.

[1997] It's like, I want to be Notch.

[1998] Like, do I want to be Cliffy B. running this whole big, huge team or Randy Pitchford running this whole company?

[1999] You know?

[2000] Or can I identify with a guy that has a two -person...

[2001] But Cliffy B. says, I want to be Notch.

[2002] Like, in the talk today, he was the one on the screen who's like, this dude's a fucking rock star.

[2003] Which is kind of funny, because, you know, his whole thing, you know, you ask him, like, hey, would you ever think about doing a new Jazz Jackrabbit or something like that, return to, like, a smaller downloadable game?

[2004] Are we talking about that?

[2005] We don't need to talk about that.

[2006] Billy Bergammer, you saw, he was there for the witness of the conversation.

[2007] But yeah, this is before that stuff.

[2008] And he'd say, no, fuck no. We're making these big games.

[2009] It was kind of as XBLA was coming up.

[2010] He's like, these big blockbuster games, this is what I want to make.

[2011] And to hear him...

[2012] kind of changing his tune a little bit I think probably speaks to like how crazy huge stuff like Minecraft.

[2013] Well someone said would you go back and be an indie and make a team make a game with ten people and he was like would you go down that path and have more control and be a power creator and really drive that vision and he's like fuck no because I get to work with these people who balance me on a team or sort of yin to my yang and actually check my crazy vision but it means we get to make these bigger experiences that millions of people enjoy and that's...

[2014] important too it's part of the industry it's part of what moves games forward to make it you know the mind show of gears 3 being on fucking was it on Conan or Fallon yeah Jimmy Fallon yeah it was like Jimmy Fallon the trailer just cooled it in the middle of a late night show they'll show a video game trailer for a minute that's pretty rad anyway Chicago's pretty cool too.

[2015] People should go.

[2016] Chicago Tourism Bureau.

[2017] Is Chicago still on?

[2018] I remember going to CES and we were at an EA Sports party when the Bulls won.

[2019] Which of the three -peats?

[2020] Which one?

[2021] Yeah, which of the two three -peats?

[2022] I'm trying to think.

[2023] I mean, it would have been...

[2024] First three -peat or second three -peat?

[2025] It would have been early 90s.

[2026] It would have been, like, some time between...

[2027] First three -peat.

[2028] Probably, like, 92 or something like that.

[2029] First three -peat.

[2030] And we were on Rush Street getting out of this party, and it was, like...

[2031] Even more flipping cars, though.

[2032] Like, me and Andy and Paul from Game Informer, and, like, Ron McDonald, who was, I think...

[2033] Where was, like, Shue?

[2034] Where's all the EGM guys?

[2035] Because they're all in Lombard.

[2036] I don't think any of those guys...

[2037] They were, right?

[2038] That's how I got my start.

[2039] 5GM was in Lombard.

[2040] Warming my way over to the Lombard EGM offices.

[2041] I think this is kind of pre -Shoe.

[2042] This is more like Steve Harris, Ed Semrad.

[2043] This is Sushi X Ken Williams.

[2044] Sushi X. I remember going to CES and having a guy point out there's a guy playing a Street Fighter machine and someone going, that's Sushi X. And you're looking and it's like...

[2045] Never was.

[2046] You're telling me this pudgy white dude is fucking it.

[2047] It totally was.

[2048] He was like EGM's circ editor or something.

[2049] So let's do this.

[2050] Let's go around the table, right?

[2051] What was the one arcade game that was like the big one for you?

[2052] Smash TV.

[2053] That's a little late.

[2054] I came up playing Galaga and Galaxian and all that stuff.

[2055] But yeah, that one, and also watching my dad play Dragon's Lair.

[2056] We would go to the arcade on weekends and stuff, and he would...

[2057] That was the first game I ever played.

[2058] I was fucking terrible at it, but he got to a point where he was beating Dragon's Lair, and we would play a lot of Gauntlet and Ikari Warriors together also.

[2059] I had a younger brother.

[2060] So the first game that I...

[2061] I've always been more of a co -op guy.

[2062] I'm much more a fan of, say, Left 4 Dead than I am Dead Rock.

[2063] Yeah, co -op you.

[2064] But the first game that we both sort of recognized characters in and played together was actually, this is going to be a little weird, but the Simpsons game.

[2065] The Simpsons arcade cabinet.

[2066] Where my brother would be like, I will be Bart Simpson right now.

[2067] I'm six years old, but I don't play the shit out of this.

[2068] And we would just put quarters in that all day at Aladdin's Castle.

[2069] Aladdin's Castle.

[2070] I remember...

[2071] That fucking place is weird.

[2072] Yeah, so Drake and I are from the same hometown.

[2073] Literally.

[2074] Right?

[2075] And it made me laugh so hard because, yeah, I remember Aladdin's Castle had, because Kanami was in Buffalo Grove at the time, and Kanami had all these different arcade cabinets on test, and Aladdin's Castle was one of them.

[2076] Yeah.

[2077] Anyway.

[2078] What was it for you?

[2079] Was it Jam?

[2080] Fuck.

[2081] Well, Jam, of course, but actually the one that actually really hooked me big time was Killer Instinct.

[2082] What?

[2083] And I know a lot.

[2084] What?

[2085] What'd you say?

[2086] Fucking terrible.

[2087] What?

[2088] Fucking terrible.

[2089] Killer Instinct?

[2090] You didn't like Killer Instinct?

[2091] I didn't like Killer Instinct.

[2092] You're fucking kidding me, huh?

[2093] Yeah, I didn't.

[2094] I like fighting games where you actually had to play them, not where you just, like, dial a combo.

[2095] See, that to me says that.

[2096] I'm not good at it.

[2097] Exactly.

[2098] You sucked at it.

[2099] Yeah, Killer Instinct, for me, because I was a huge Rare fan, right?

[2100] I mean, like, Donkey Kong Country, everything I was doing, like, did you get Killer Cuts the CD?

[2101] Yeah, I did.

[2102] So did I?

[2103] They had women dancing on stage in the Nintendo booth.

[2104] There's actually a buddy that I went to grade school with, George Japri, right?

[2105] Who's like, I remember when you were in grade school, you had a Killer Instinct medallion.

[2106] I totally did.

[2107] I totally bit that bullet.

[2108] Killer Instinct was like...

[2109] Because it was like midway, and it was rare, and it was a Nintendo.

[2110] So it was a huge fan of Killer Instinct.

[2111] For me, there was no actually arcade in my hometown.

[2112] So Birch Bay, Washington State.

[2113] We had to go, and we would go there twice a year.

[2114] And I would save up all my money, and I would play Gauntlet and 720.

[2115] Like literally 30 bucks on each.

[2116] I would just be like, Dad, drop me off.

[2117] 720, the N64 game?

[2118] No, the skateboarding.

[2119] Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry.

[2120] Skate or not?

[2121] Also, that was 1080.

[2122] 720 is an arcade game.

[2123] I called up my local arcade once and asked them how much it would cost to buy a 720 machine.

[2124] Did they give you an answer?

[2125] Yeah, it was like $5 ,000.

[2126] Right.

[2127] I actually asked for it for my birthday in one year.

[2128] I called out a pet store once and asked how much it would be to buy a chimpanzee, so I understand.

[2129] No, come on.

[2130] 720 chimpanzees.

[2131] 720 lasts forever.

[2132] Chimpanzees are going to die after that.

[2133] He shits in his pants.

[2134] In your mouth.

[2135] On your head.

[2136] Sorry, Dave Lane.

[2137] Track and field.

[2138] I remember the Lance Castle at my house, they had the button track and field.

[2139] And also by us, everyone had the comb in their fingers.

[2140] And they would use that to lever the buttons.

[2141] I see people bring spoons.

[2142] Or pencils were big too.

[2143] They were also junkies, so they had spoons on.

[2144] That was the year I fell in love with it, and we went on this family vacation.

[2145] I don't remember where.

[2146] We're driving, and we're at this Four Seasons Resort or something, and we get there.

[2147] They have an arcade.

[2148] Naturally, you go to the arcade and check it out.

[2149] And they had a fucking...

[2150] trackball, track and field.

[2151] Blew my fucking mind.

[2152] Didn't know it existed.

[2153] But it's like, instead of like this, it's just spitting the thing as fast as you can.

[2154] What?

[2155] And yeah, then basically it's like, I wasn't, yeah.

[2156] Then I just did that all.

[2157] That's a fingerprint.

[2158] It was incredible.

[2159] It was like sacrilege, but it was still so awesome because it was so crazy.

[2160] Yeah.

[2161] And to this day, you're still really good at furiously passing your hand over knobs of something, right?

[2162] No, no, no. One can say I'm an expert, John.

[2163] Not an expert.

[2164] The one for me actually turned out to be NBA Jam because I have the fondest memories of my parents owned or rent this lake house in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, just north of the Illinois border.

[2165] And there was this NBA machine, this bar, this family bar that everyone would kind of go to.

[2166] And we would spend the entire fall.

[2167] collecting change into these giant, remember those giant crayons that you could put coins into?

[2168] So my parents got that for us, and they were like, so we're tired of having to give you so much money to play NBA Jam, so just, you guys spend the fall and the winter putting coins into this crayon, and then that's what you get to spend on NBA Jam, and we would cash it, we'd take this giant crayon, take it to the bank, hundreds of quarters, and that we would spend, I mean, NBA Jam was a quarter per quarter, so that added up pretty quick, but because we had the giant crayon, that's what I would spend our entire summers doing.

[2169] Awesome.

[2170] Well, I think that's going to do it for us.

[2171] I know.

[2172] It's the most boring bomb cast I've ever seen.

[2173] It's like weird nostalgia.

[2174] Just cut it off after the threesome story.

[2175] It's done.

[2176] I miss GDC.

[2177] If you just want to tell some horrible Midway story, now's the time.

[2178] What's a good horrible Midway story?

[2179] Cut the feed!

[2180] Cut the feed!

[2181] Right, exactly.

[2182] Thank you.

[2183] That's been GDC from us here.

[2184] Thanks for watching.

[2185] Or listening, if you're listening.

[2186] If you're not listening, then you're not even hearing me. Thank you for watching.

[2187] So I guess thank you for watching and or listening.

[2188] The fuck am I even talking?

[2189] All right.

[2190] Yes.

[2191] That's GDC.

[2192] We'll be back with regular podcasts on Tuesday.

[2193] And then PAX East.

[2194] Don't forget.

[2195] Friday night at PAX East.

[2196] We've got our panel Thursday night at PAX East.

[2197] We'll be judging the Harmonix Rock Band night.

[2198] Rattle Theater in Harvard Square.

[2199] Come early to see Heavy Metal screened on the big screen.

[2200] Weird as shit, yeah.

[2201] I don't know if we're going to...

[2202] We're flying in that day.

[2203] No, you're not going to be there, but I'll be there.

[2204] All right, well, he'll be there.

[2205] Heavy metal.

[2206] Heavy metal.