119 - Fingers Everywhere

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Oh, hello and welcome.

[17] Hi, welcome.

[18] Are you saying that to me?

[19] I'm reiterating.

[20] Oh, because welcome to you.

[21] Welcome to you, Karen.

[22] Thank you.

[23] Everyone to my favorite murder, the podcast.

[24] This is a podcast where we talk about true crime, you know, and everything else under the sun.

[25] Everything we can even imagine.

[26] Oh, my God.

[27] We're getting into a lot of religious stuff lately.

[28] Spirituality.

[29] I'm more spiritual than religious.

[30] I'm not religious.

[31] No, but I hear people saying that on dates behind me at restaurants all the time and I just want to punch them in the face.

[32] I would love to sit behind a date where they were like, I am strictly religious and I think spirituality is wrong.

[33] Yeah.

[34] I'm here for the rules and the books and I don't care about the soul or the feeling.

[35] I would be relieved to hear that.

[36] In L .A., you'll never hear that in L .A. I witness, I feel like in L .A., I witness so many Tinder dates or like coffee meetups.

[37] Yeah.

[38] And I get, I get so involved.

[39] Oh, like how?

[40] Well, I'm a humongous eavesdropper.

[41] I'll fucking eavesdropped on anybody.

[42] Well, how can you not?

[43] Like, it's not eavesdropping.

[44] It's listening to the conversation going on.

[45] That is going on way too loudly.

[46] Always, because it's a city full of actors.

[47] And everybody thinks they should be heard.

[48] Right.

[49] But then they're talking about stuff.

[50] That they think is unique and interesting.

[51] Like us, for example, on this podcast, right now.

[52] Like, true crime.

[53] Why talk about it if you're not going to record it?

[54] Like this murder.

[55] You know what makes me, it's because I have a problem with vulnerability.

[56] So when two people are sitting in front of each other, trying to present themselves as here's my most interesting, it makes me want to vomit into the closest garbage can for seven hours.

[57] I'm sorry, the garbage can, because there's also a composting can and there's also a recycling.

[58] And there's also the coffee place I go to has an area to put your, like, coffee sleeve in to recycle the sleeve.

[59] Oh, okay.

[60] Which I think has to be definitely against health codes, but I do it anyway.

[61] oh well my first of all my vomit would definitely go into composting sure because that's just going to churn up all that mulch plastic bottles the acid is going to break down all of those eggshells because every place you go into here has three bins and you sit there and stare at them and I'm going on a tirade go on three bins 17 actors everybody's trying to hook up yeah and um yeah and then if you want to reuse a coffee sleeve wait now is Is that voluntary, or are they just going to reuse those coffee sleeves and you don't know about it as the person buying what you think is a new coffee with a new sleeve?

[62] I bet you think it's new and it's not new.

[63] You think that's true?

[64] With their dirty fingers all over it?

[65] How could that be?

[66] No. I'd rather burn my fingers.

[67] Your fingers are where you put, you put your fingers everywhere.

[68] I put my fingers everywhere.

[69] Do you know?

[70] Do you know that about me?

[71] I'm confronting you.

[72] That's how I meant that sentence.

[73] You've been at tour with me. I meant to say, stop.

[74] putting your fingers everywhere oh shit okay all right speaking of which and i'm sorry for the segue someone started a hashtag hot for holes and it is wrong it's filthy it is it's making us look that say what you they mean though the funniest thing i've ever seen hot for holes is obviously our love of our lives paul hole hole's the criminologist who solved the golden state killer among many people Which, you know, he would defer.

[75] Oh, no, oh, no, no, no, I didn't do anything.

[76] You know what I mean.

[77] Someone made like a, it looks like a science project poster board thing of just photos of him, cut out photos of him all over it.

[78] I should be referred it.

[79] I believe you can find that under the hashtag Hot for holes.

[80] I bet you fucking can.

[81] He's wearing all different kinds of Oakley blades and all different sun settings.

[82] But someone else made a really good point.

[83] They posted a photo of him.

[84] They saw him in an old episodes of like forensic files and said, he's aged well because he doesn't look so hot as a young man and you bullshit i agree he looked i would have i would have fucking punched his puka shell wearing face in the fucking face like he just didn't look that hot you're not into early paul no i'm into i'm into later stages like he looks like he's been hanging out on what's the island with the tequila with the guy sings in hawaii no margaritaville yes no no no the one stevens island margaritaville Stevens Island, you know the one with the...

[85] Cabo?

[86] Yes.

[87] With the tequila.

[88] I don't think that's an island.

[89] We got to go and tour to Mexico.

[90] Edit this out.

[91] Yes.

[92] He definitely has vacationed along Baja, California.

[93] And like the kind of pre -skin cancer look now that he's got, like, withered a little.

[94] But here, I have to say, first of all, I was talking to my sister on the phone this morning, and she called Paul Holes.

[95] the Indiana Jones of Criminology.

[96] And I couldn't stop laughing.

[97] She goes, I'm not kidding.

[98] I like wrote I love you on my eyelids as I was watching this interview.

[99] Oh my God.

[100] He gave some hour long interview on KTV, which is our channel two, our home station.

[101] No way.

[102] Which we grew up watching.

[103] There's only one too.

[104] That's amazing.

[105] She called me this morning to give me like the basically the lowdown.

[106] That is the best description of anyone I've ever heard in my life.

[107] Am I right?

[108] Yes.

[109] Laura did it.

[110] A plus.

[111] Also, it's funny because Laura is not interested in true crime whatsoever.

[112] She's just taking this ride with us.

[113] Love it.

[114] So she like gets into it because she knows we go crazy.

[115] My sister too, I don't think she gives two shits, but she's like happy that that I'm finally getting my need for attention med. So she doesn't have to deal with me dating guys anymore.

[116] Yeah.

[117] Have you ever wanted more attention in your life?

[118] Oh my God.

[119] Um, anyway, salute to Paul Holes.

[120] Yeah.

[121] Speaking of what, I don't know, pick one, DNA?

[122] Yeah, go DNA.

[123] Okay, so Stephen just sent us as we walked into class.

[124] That's what I'm calling this today.

[125] A link of, so people are losing their ship because it comes out that they found the Golden State killer by getting the familial DNA off some fucking person that was like, I want to know what race I am, you know, like from fucking wherever.

[126] Just tell yourself your Dutch Spanish.

[127] Yeah, whatever you think you are, I learned this by submitting.

[128] my DNA to 23 and me. You're whatever you think you are.

[129] Oh, okay.

[130] I'm so fucking Eastern European Jewish that I am basically imbred.

[131] Like, there's nothing else about me. Your tribe kept it tight.

[132] I was so bummed because I was like, oh, I have, you know, my family has dark hair.

[133] Maybe we are a little bit something cool.

[134] No, I mean, not that it's not cool, but just like a little mix.

[135] You guys did a great job though as a tribe.

[136] Thank you.

[137] You kept it alive.

[138] Uh -huh.

[139] You kept that hair good.

[140] Yep.

[141] Great features.

[142] We kept it in the family.

[143] There's just a hundred percent.

[144] So some fucking person was like, I'm blaming to be inbred.

[145] What else is there?

[146] So someone was like, what am I?

[147] And they sent their DNA in to a half rate fucking company that didn't have the protection that 23 and me has and all these other in Anastestry .com has that are like, we won't give your fucking DNA away.

[148] Well, they actually said, though, I read an article where they had in their disclaimer, it's.

[149] said if you were afraid you may have committed a crime or you don't want to be searched.

[150] Like we we do not keep these DNA profiles out of that.

[151] So don't submit your.

[152] And like that that's always been their customer service thing.

[153] It really annoyed me that like last week.

[154] So I took my I took myself off Twitter because I just couldn't handle it anymore.

[155] But so the last shit I saw was like, uh, you know, what's what does this mean for our public safety, blah, Blah -de -blah.

[156] And it's like, no, it wasn't a big fucking company.

[157] It's not like a big deal.

[158] It's not everyone.

[159] Calm fucking down, everyone.

[160] Let's talk about this murderer and what he did instead.

[161] That'd be great.

[162] So, but they're going to run Zodiacs, Stephen told us, DNA through this company.

[163] Yes.

[164] That'll be fun.

[165] No, they, I saw that article.

[166] They said they aren't saying what company they're running it through.

[167] Oh, good.

[168] Okay, because I was like, someone's going to kill them.

[169] Some old man is about to kill himself tonight.

[170] Right.

[171] When he sees that.

[172] Well, let's keep.

[173] our eye out for any well how old would he be now in his late 90s um I mean that would be exciting it would be very cool I agree with the people who are worried about there have to be restrictions or there has to be privacy if you are spitting on a piece of cotton and sending it to some company because you want to find out just how Dutch you are fuck you're on it you're then you're in the mix You're in the game.

[174] You're done.

[175] And also, you know, like if they have to have probable cause, you know our boy, Paul Holes, lined it up so that it's like this thing, if they were going to do it and get the answer in a certain way.

[176] And I understand how outsiders don't trust this.

[177] I trust Paul Holes.

[178] He did it by the book because they don't want it to fall apart in court.

[179] Well, you know, Sally.

[180] Yeah, exactly.

[181] And you know Sally Hull or Sally Holes.

[182] Oh, my God.

[183] Who's Sally Holes?

[184] I was going to say that, you know, Sally and HR at whatever fucking DNA company who, like, Paul Holes came up to her and was like, I'm going to tell you why you're going to do this.

[185] Like, I need this.

[186] And she was just like, there was no chance.

[187] And then she wrote Mrs. Sally Holes over and over again.

[188] That's what I was going to say.

[189] My favorite thing is so many people are now writing dirty jokes.

[190] Like, I got one the other day where I was like, what I thought I got, I thought I was being trolled.

[191] Whereas like, I'd like to investigate some of these holes where I'm like, oh, I get it.

[192] People are really experimenting with their blue comedy with this specific combination of nouns.

[193] Well, all we need to do is add in to Adam to Karen's list of men she loves with last names that are nouns.

[194] Nouns.

[195] Yeah.

[196] It's just, we've got Jimmy Buttons.

[197] We've got Paul onions.

[198] Onions.

[199] Now we've got Mr. Holes.

[200] There's one other one.

[201] Someone made a really great, like, jackets.

[202] But jackets was a. bad guy.

[203] Oh, yeah.

[204] I don't love that guy.

[205] Okay.

[206] Well, he was one of yours.

[207] He's still one of yours.

[208] He is one of characters in my, in my universe, but he's not canon.

[209] Oh, what I was going to talk about is yesterday in Los Angeles, we had a high -speed chase.

[210] Right.

[211] I didn't see this.

[212] With a Winnebago.

[213] And it was - Explain that to me. How high -speed does this, like, what is high -speed definition?

[214] Because - Well, think about it.

[215] In L .A., you can't fucking get anywhere.

[216] over 35 miles an hour.

[217] So there was a Winnebago going 55 up.

[218] I think it did a 5134 -170 transition.

[219] Oh, you can't do that more than 10 miles an hour the whole time.

[220] Well, this thing was flying up the freeway.

[221] I saw Brandy Posey, our friend from the great podcast Lady to Lady, she tweeted it.

[222] We've got a live one and then posted the link.

[223] And I was at the mall and I pulled out my ear.

[224] earbuds sat down and watched the live feed at the mall because I was like what I did not know you were that kind of girl I love a I love a high speed chase they worry me I don't like them they worry me they're worrisome that's part of what I love like I can't take my eyes off it and Steve and I were just talking about there they happen in L .A. a lot yeah because we've got a lot of freeways and a lot of action but it turned out so my my friend Dan Telfer was also a comic so he's I like him on Twitter he's hilarious a lot He's a great writer.

[225] He used to work on at midnight, and he's just cool.

[226] And he's listened to us from the beginning.

[227] Thank you, Dan.

[228] And, uh, and supported.

[229] So anyway, he got in.

[230] What if he was unsupportive?

[231] He's listened to us highly critical most of what we do.

[232] Hates us.

[233] No, he, um, he was in mine and Brandy's conversation.

[234] And then at one point sent the follow -up article about what had happened.

[235] And it's very dark because it's this guy who was a registered sex offender, grabbing sex with children under the age of 14.

[236] Stop it.

[237] And he was in that Winnebago with his three -year -old son and 11 -month -old daughter.

[238] They had been, they were from, I want to say they were from Washington State or Oregon State.

[239] And they were down in San Diego, I believe.

[240] And something happened, and he took off with the kids.

[241] And he was on the phone with his mother and his wife the whole time.

[242] And he ended up getting arrested.

[243] The kids are safe.

[244] He's a pedibolny as a mother and a wife.

[245] That's not fair.

[246] I mean, some people, it's just about charisma.

[247] I think it's like confidence.

[248] If you just go into situations, you're like, I'm not the worst person that's also a sex offender.

[249] And you're just like, hey, and of course, if you triangulate and you neg people, you can get anyone you want.

[250] And people believe what you put out there.

[251] So it's like, oh, Jesus.

[252] It's about the energy.

[253] And again, it's about spirituality over religion at all times.

[254] Oh, sorry, can I do a sidebar?

[255] Absolutely.

[256] From that story.

[257] I had just gotten a coffee at Starbucks in the mall.

[258] And as I was ordering my coffee, the girl I was talking to, I saw her writing, you know, in Starbucks, they write your order on the dirty sleeve.

[259] Can I say before you say anything, I know the other side of this story because she posted it on Facebook.

[260] Oh, then I was going to tell you the other side of the story because my friend, Vicki, as I was shopping, sent me what she posted.

[261] Oh, okay.

[262] So you're in, okay, so you're in Starbucks.

[263] You see a chick writing a thing down on the dirty sleeve.

[264] I see her, and I'm like giving my order, which is a little bit confusing.

[265] What is it?

[266] It's a double tall one pump mocha.

[267] Okay.

[268] So it's people are always like, what?

[269] But it's like they put too much.

[270] Double.

[271] If it's that small, they put too much stuff in it.

[272] You want it not that big because you don't have them milk milk and you want only one pump of mocha, please.

[273] Just a nice, a suggestion of mocha, not, don't drown me. Yeah.

[274] So she's writing it down, but I see that she does all the, you know, M and one and all.

[275] And then I see her write S -S -D.

[276] Then she does a weird thing and then throws it away.

[277] And I was about to go, wait, were you going to, and I was going to do the funny confrontation thing.

[278] But then she, I don't know, something else happened.

[279] There was, there was a lot happening.

[280] Yeah.

[281] So I didn't confront her.

[282] I thought it'd be funny.

[283] But there's a bunch of people in line, whatever.

[284] Then, so in her new one, she just rewrites the order again and sends it.

[285] Then the order goes through.

[286] her boss I'm standing over there waiting and then her her boss or the person making it and I found it was her boss after goes do you want whipped cream on this and I said no thanks at which she which the person who was ringing me up already asked and I said no but she didn't remember to put it on the second sleeve so then she gets yelled at for not putting it on the sleeve and I was about to go again about to but didn't do it I was about to go oh no she asked me I just she you know Like, she did ask me that.

[287] But then I was like, I can't get involved.

[288] Then high -speed chase, I'm drawn away.

[289] Then my friend Vicki Ernst, who lives in New York, does the funniest part and was far away from me. She sends me a text that goes, I don't understand what your life is now.

[290] And then it's the Facebook post from Rachel.

[291] What does it say?

[292] She says, I normally don't get rattled when a celebrity comes to Starbucks, but it's L .A. And it happens.

[293] brag no brag no brag uh man now reading this sounds stupid but she basically said i lost my mind on the inside my hands were shaking that's not true i didn't see any hands shaking i was so nervous tried to sneak an sdgm on the cup but couldn't worst of all my supervisor chastised me in front of her embarrassment level 10 000 well that was my tuesday maybe next time i'll be cooler rachel you couldn't have been cooler there was no indication on your face or anywhere that you knew who I was or anything, to the point where when I saw you starting to write SSD, I didn't want to be the asshole who was like, are you writing my thing?

[294] So I just didn't say anything.

[295] That's how cool you were.

[296] So don't worry about it.

[297] You'll be able to handle it.

[298] Yeah.

[299] Next time, just give Karen a free coffee and it'll be fine.

[300] Next, I always appreciate people who are just like, ugh, like I'm not reacting to you whatsoever.

[301] But, and thank you for calling me a celebrity.

[302] What a joy, Rachel.

[303] What a joy.

[304] Between that and the high -speed chase, fuck.

[305] I mean, I had a power day at the mall.

[306] Power day.

[307] Power day.

[308] Can I say, can I do our couple power tour quickies?

[309] Please.

[310] So we're leaving for fucking Europe on Saturday.

[311] I'm losing my mind.

[312] I'm so stressed out.

[313] It's very stressful.

[314] I cannot wait to be on that plane.

[315] I can't always be in the airport.

[316] Like, that's how excited I am about it.

[317] I can't wait to be in a fucking germ -ridden, disgusting fucking airport.

[318] That's how fucking stoked I am.

[319] It's going to be so fun.

[320] I'm trying to.

[321] I'm trying to get all my pre -stress out now, so we can just have the best time.

[322] It's going to be great.

[323] Okay, there's Oslo, you guys, May 9th.

[324] We need to see you there if you want to come.

[325] I don't know.

[326] Come if you want.

[327] I'm not trying to be like, you have to come.

[328] What's the thing that would make some, like a Norwegian, you know, we're going to be giving away free smelt.

[329] Every cocktail comes with a free shot of smelt.

[330] Some eggs.

[331] You can have herring.

[332] Free.

[333] much herring you can bring it and you can have it then we just lose half the ticket sales just now they all get returned they're like fuck you you racist asshole amsterdam on the those are the two shows that aren't sold out so Amsterdam on the 16th that's going to be a good show because we're going to have had two days to chill the fuck out so like we're going to be on point that's right you know what I mean like we're going to have some fucking stories um about tulips and buildings um and you know houses and getting so stone that we laid on the ground right just kidding and then uh for our tour for the the far fall tour coming up in the u .s it's fucking like almost completely sold out except for Portland on october 18th it's my sister's birthday come celebrate my sister's birthday she won't be there lee um and then los angeles okay here's the thing we're doing a show on Halloween at the microsoft theater and it's kind of like our biggest deal show we've ever done because it's the most seats we've ever had and then they can also keep opening up to theater so we can sell out more tickets it's kind of a big scary deal and I think our dude said that it's going to be like the biggest live show podcast ever and the ever so that's scary and big we want to make sure people come they've already opened up one wing the biggest live podcast ever Karen there's going to be so much sitting there's going to be a lot of um i hope costumes you and i need to figure out what the fuck we're going to go as yeah it's Halloween someone made a really good point of that like okay but parents can't go now good just kidding just kidding just kidding so just like if your kids are young enough they won't even remember Halloween it's fine i mean i have friends my friend paul dankie when i told him about it and he was like will you put me on that list i was like of course and i'm like but you have two young daughters And he goes, I don't give a shit.

[334] That's what I'm looking for in a person.

[335] Those are our people.

[336] Yeah.

[337] So fucking Halloween in Los Angeles, it's going to be at LA Live, like at the Microsoft Theater where we had, we just saw.

[338] Shen Yang.

[339] It's going to be, we'll meet you at the yardhouse or we'll meet you at fucking, what, is there a fucking Margaritaville there?

[340] I don't know.

[341] Maybe there will be by then.

[342] We'll meet you there.

[343] It's going to be fun.

[344] It's going to be crazy.

[345] And then Atlanta on November 9th, that's not sold out either.

[346] So that's an added show.

[347] okay yeah you have six months to sell that show out it's almost sold out so get your fucking tickets and also just thanks everybody we know that this ticket thing has been crazy and some people have been you know there's been a lot of feelings and there's been a lot of fits and starts we want you to know we are so thrilled that you care yeah and it means the world to us we go out to all these cities and it's a lot of cities for us I know it's not enough but it is a lot of cities for us it is and the idea that you that so many people want to come and watch us do this bullshit is very fun and we really really are grateful for all that you go through we're very lucky we can't believe it also um if you're in the fan call when we leave for europe next week we're going to start posting exclusive videos from the tour we cannot promise quality no no no but we will we will make them i think maybe that part of the allure will be we are going to look horrible uh -huh it's going to be shot badly.

[348] But you're going to see Europe through the lens of our experience.

[349] It's going to be real and we want to bring you with us in the, you know, low -fi way that we do everything.

[350] It'll be a learning curve for everyone.

[351] That's right.

[352] It will be fun.

[353] If you're a part of the fan cult, look out for those videos.

[354] Yeah, I think it's, we will try to have fun with it.

[355] And if you're not, you can go to my favorite murder .com and join and you get free shit with it.

[356] It's cool.

[357] That's right.

[358] Um, I was just going to say a quick corrections corner.

[359] Oh, great.

[360] I made fun of the posting that was on next, the next door app.

[361] Lots of responses about the next door app.

[362] Oh, yeah.

[363] hilarious.

[364] I mean, there is so much crazy, hilarious stuff on there.

[365] People posted some really funny stuff.

[366] I made fun of somebody for posting Raccoon in the daytime.

[367] We immediately got a response.

[368] Again, I'm going to get better about writing people's names down.

[369] But day of, oh, for a second, I thought Stephen was holding up a cue card that gave me the person's name.

[370] Somebody immediately responsible.

[371] responded if you see a raccoon in the day they probably have rabies and then and then I will go ahead and say call the non -emergency police number not 911 no do not call 911 if you see a day raccoon but don't approach do not approach a day raccoon you almost gave people a rabies Karen I if you got rabies we want to hear about it it's like Moripovich do you have rabies and your boyfriend cheated on you?

[372] If they're in the fan cult, is there a forum of what we've done, how we've done you wrong?

[373] Yes.

[374] We want to, we want to know.

[375] I think that does exist, actually.

[376] Does it?

[377] Oh, shit.

[378] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[379] Absolutely.

[380] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[381] Exactly.

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[392] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[393] Who killed Saz?

[394] And were they really after Charles?

[395] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[396] This season, murder hits close to home.

[397] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[398] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[399] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[400] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[401] Get ready for the starryest season.

[402] in yet with Merrill Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Dayvine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[403] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[404] Bye.

[405] Goodbye.

[406] Um, I think that's all my current business.

[407] I got nothing.

[408] Let's forget the fuck out of here.

[409] I got, I got my hair dyed.

[410] I'm so excited.

[411] I got my hair dyed days before we leave on this trip so that I won't have gray roots during.

[412] It looks great.

[413] Thank you.

[414] I finally.

[415] got the timing down it's really hard i get gray roots like every three weeks so you have i have to like be on it um that sucks i don't know i don't know how to it wasn't a rich area could think we're now being sponsored actually literally by a hair like a hair color company i know i'm fucking stuck this is not a commercial there's see how there's no music behind it this is not a commercial and we're not saying the name no and we were no no it no it's this isn't free um stephen who goes first well last week was the golden state killer but then the week before karen went first okay all right i want to do over you want me to go first i want to go first okay great all right let me take a sip of my canned rosé is that what that is a fucking canned rosé i would have thought that was a die coke so i don't know my glasses on you can be a secret alcoholic this way love it all right how is that canned rosé it's all right they're not paying us so I'm not going to tell you what it is perfect you can get it at Trader Joe's um all right this is one that I hope you didn't do at a live show well let's find out this is the lipstick killer William Heerens Hyrens what's that face I'm trying to remember I don't think you did okay great she answers her own question okay great exactly how I didn't want to.

[416] You did a lip -bitey thing of like it looked like I have something bad to tell you.

[417] But here's how I can't tell anymore because we've gone to a bunch of different cities and we've looked up all these people and we've researched these people and then chosen not to do them or whatever.

[418] Yeah.

[419] So we didn't do it a bunch of, yeah, I don't think we did it.

[420] Okay, cool.

[421] And then there was a time before we had, Stephen was with us that we did a couple of Chicago shows so I can't ask Stephen because he wouldn't know I don't fuck it fuck it all once our fucking biography comes out and then well and also William Hyrens is super famous is that the correct pronunciation um I've I've heard of him and you've seen a million photos of this too okay he looks the old photos of him he looks scary and you're like oh that guy's a murderer because you've seen his photo a million times oh is he we don't know let's find out here we go right all right so So the lipstick murders started in Chicago just after the end of World War II.

[422] So World War II's over.

[423] Everyone's fucking stoked.

[424] It's like great time in America.

[425] All this bullshit.

[426] So the first murder took place on somewhere June 5th, 1945.

[427] 43 -year -old Josephine Ross is found dead in her apartment by her daughter.

[428] Her apartment's close to Wrigley Field in Chicago, obviously.

[429] Josephine had been repeatedly stabbed.

[430] And then her body had been washed by the killer.

[431] and all her wounds, this is fucking weird, had been covered with tape.

[432] No. So each of her stab wounds.

[433] So if someone was like, oh, fuck, washes her.

[434] Like, that sounds like some serial killer shit, right?

[435] Yes.

[436] Washes her, covers each wound with tape and then places her back into bed.

[437] Her head had also been wrapped with one of her skirts, almost like, can't look at your face time.

[438] But this is a time when they didn't have, you know, criminal profiling or like serial killer wasn't even a term yet.

[439] Right.

[440] So, and she had been, launch but the investigator still found a dark like hair clutched in her hand like she had ripped his fucking hair out of his head as he attacked her the blood spattered apartment it had been ransacked um but they nothing was missing and police found no fingerprints and no obvious motive and they assumed that she had surprised an intruder but nothing had been stolen so I don't know about that josephine's murder at the time didn't even make front page the front page news um and At the time, there were five big Chicago papers led by the Chicago Tribune, and they all competed for circulation, especially post -war when less shit was going on.

[441] But it didn't even make the front page.

[442] About six months later on December, I know, right?

[443] Yeah, that's super crazy.

[444] Also, just the detail alone of the tape.

[445] The tape.

[446] If that was in the newspaper, a million people would go crazy about that.

[447] Nope.

[448] About six months later, on December 10th, 1945, a 32 -year -old woman, she's a stenographer, and she's a four.

[449] former Navy Wave, forgot to look that up, who had served during World War II.

[450] Her name is Frances Brown.

[451] She's found slumped in her bathtub in her apartment at the Pine Grove Hotel in Chicago.

[452] She had been shot in the head, and this is horrible.

[453] A bread knife had been driven sideways through her neck with such force that the blade had emerged on the other side.

[454] Whoa.

[455] I know.

[456] she was nude and just like Josephine she had been washed after being murdered but he left her at the side of the bathtub for some reason and her head was wrapped in towels so it was like kind of a similar thing and again the apartment had been clear had been wiped clean of fingerprints but this time someone had left a message on the wall of the apartment written in lipstick and it said in like crazy person in writing.

[457] Yeah.

[458] It said, for heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more.

[459] I cannot control myself.

[460] Do you want to see the photo?

[461] Yes, please.

[462] Okay, here you go.

[463] We'll put it up on our Instagram.

[464] This is like, I love when any story parallels the movie seven.

[465] Oh, yeah.

[466] It's exactly like that.

[467] That's, I didn't even think about that.

[468] Okay, here's, it's like, written like a crazy person.

[469] Okay.

[470] And we'll put it up on Twitter and all the places.

[471] You know why?

[472] Can I just say?

[473] Yeah, because as a as a handwriting analyst expert yeah it's combining capital letters lowercase letters and cursive oh the cursive part's creepy cursive else in the middle of like a like a regular block yeah everything about this says i don't know what the fuck is going on from second to second right right or am i trying to make it look like i don't know what i'm doing from second to second i guess that's true but it's very effective it is i don't like a loose cursive L is very unnerved.

[474] Right.

[475] And is it some of the letters like fucking Toys R -S style like backward and forward to?

[476] You know what I mean?

[477] R -R -S.

[478] Like corn style backwards to upset you?

[479] Corn, yes.

[480] It's a heaven's sake.

[481] Yeah.

[482] Read it because it's like for heaven's sake.

[483] A curly QC catch me. So the C is like a space thing.

[484] A spiral.

[485] It almost looks like a lowercase of E. yes that's exactly right catch me b4 capital b capital f everything else lowercase i kill kill is in unconnected cursive yeah it's all crazy it's written in fucking lipstick the um and then the press then goes fucking crazy for it also no punctuation and the other thing about this is that because at the time women used the term for heaven's sake a lot they thought it might be a woman woman who had done this, which everyone was like, what are you fucking talking about?

[486] That's some poor theorizing.

[487] Everyone now is like, what the fuck?

[488] Okay.

[489] So, uh, this note earned the killer the name, the lipstick killer by the media, of course, who are now obsessed with it because they have a catchy name and two murders that are supposedly linked.

[490] Um, four weeks later.

[491] All right.

[492] So they're going crazy.

[493] They're like, who the fuck is this killer?

[494] We don't know.

[495] and at the time it was kind of an innocent era and so people are doing the whole locking their doors for the first time thing then four weeks later at about 730 in the morning of january 7th uh 1946 in a wealthy section in the north side of chicago called edgewater it was discovered that six year old suzanne dagnan was missing from her first floor bedroom whoa did you say six year old So she's this little fucking sweet little blonde baby girl, young thing is missing.

[496] Her window is open and a ladder is placed underneath it outside.

[497] So like someone had climbed in and taken her.

[498] When they search her room, police find a crumpled note.

[499] And this is another fucking psychotically written thing that I have a photo for you.

[500] The note says, tells the family to prepare $20 ,000.

[501] ransom, not to notify the police or FBI, and to wait for a word from the kidnapper.

[502] But they didn't find it until after.

[503] So look at that fucking psychotic note.

[504] Oh, no. It's similarly written, right?

[505] Yes.

[506] It's kind of.

[507] Curly Q E's.

[508] And, but also, yeah.

[509] But the E's are curly.

[510] I mean, it's an E, not a C. Like, I looked at them and I tried so hard to, like, tell if they were connected or not.

[511] That police C is not the same.

[512] Yeah.

[513] I don't think it's the same.

[514] but it's still capitals and lowercase it is yeah it's still a fucking crazy note but not like bills the ls and bills are not uh cursive they're they're not blending the to me that note seems like it was written by someone uneducated and the lipstick killer one looks like it was someone trying to seem crazy so that's just my bullshit yeah this looks like someone who who doesn't who doesn't write well yes and it doesn't it doesn't look planned because it's so sloppy.

[515] It's really sloppy.

[516] It looks like it was hard to write.

[517] Right.

[518] And words are misspelled too, which the other one isn't.

[519] Okay.

[520] So they find that note.

[521] And then on the reverse side is written, burn this for her safety.

[522] Right.

[523] Okay.

[524] So by the evening of her disappearance, though, they received some hang up calls about ransom, but they never, they never like go through and they never give details.

[525] And by that evening, police receive an anonymous this phone call suggesting the police look in the sewers near the Degnan residence.

[526] Okay, this gets fucked up, ready?

[527] Yes.

[528] Only a block away from the Degnan home, they find the severed head of little Suzanne Degnan in a storm -drained sewer.

[529] Jesus Christ.

[530] I know.

[531] This is 1940 fucking six.

[532] Like, shit like this does not happen.

[533] This is Chicago?

[534] Yeah.

[535] Wow.

[536] Yeah.

[537] It's so awful.

[538] Then they find Suzanne's right.

[539] leg in a catch basin, they find her torso in another storm drain, and her left leg in another drain.

[540] Each piece is found further and further away from the home, like the person was just hiding them along the fucking way.

[541] And all the drains had cast iron manhole covers that weighed at least 110 pounds each.

[542] Whoa.

[543] Yeah.

[544] Is that heavy?

[545] That's heavy, right?

[546] 110 pounds?

[547] Yeah.

[548] Yeah.

[549] I mean, it's like picking up a fifth grader.

[550] Okay.

[551] I can bench like.

[552] pretty you know you could punch like a second grader yeah yeah um that's awful i'm sorry this is this the whole fucking city goes crazy this is not this does not happen little girls like this like adults people can deal with it it's not even front page news well also this is the second you said this part i think it i'm positive i've read this but when it comes to something like when the details are that bad and gory yeah it's hard for us to do those at live shows because It's just so awful.

[553] That's why I was like, I bet we didn't do this because I would remember us talking about this.

[554] Yeah.

[555] Because it's so quiet and sad and horrifying.

[556] Yeah, and it's just like, you're right, it was that time where because things were so, things were so, I mean, I feel like we are experiencing this societally, not to get too broad about it.

[557] But these days, we all know everything.

[558] We're desensitized.

[559] Yeah.

[560] And we, and we're in it.

[561] We're in the mix, which I think is part of the reason this kind of true crime thing is like kicking.

[562] up in the last 10 years so strongly is because it's like basically going, I'm not going to pretend anymore.

[563] This is real and it's happening.

[564] I want to pay attention to it.

[565] But back then, this was like the war is over, buy a car, buy a house, get a wife, have two kids, be white.

[566] You can be whatever you want.

[567] Yeah.

[568] If you're white.

[569] And yeah.

[570] So it's that.

[571] And everybody's kind of locked and focused on that and not letting go of it.

[572] So this is a real aberration.

[573] And it's also the time.

[574] And I think you can't tell this story without making it that with making that a big part of it what you just said and also that you know it was of course the time even in fucking Chicago where children just walked around and were out all night or not all day did whatever they wanted that was you know partying and throwing dice and alleys right yeah but there was there was a lack of supervision because there wasn't a need for supervision because it was a you know a safer world supposedly supposedly a safer world.

[575] And it was, though.

[576] But, you know, then something like this happens and it just changes the fucking landscape.

[577] And, well, yeah, people can't tell themselves that lie anymore.

[578] Right.

[579] Essentially is what it is.

[580] Right.

[581] And worse possible way to do it.

[582] Exactly.

[583] So they search an apartment building near the location where Suzanne's head was found.

[584] And they uncover and somehow, this is fucking crazy that they found this to me, but whatever, a basement laundry room.

[585] and in there are tubs because it was like not I was like well what about why are there four tubs in there it's like oh no they didn't have washing machines right it was a tub is the laundry room yes oh god they find four tubs and in the drains they find blood oh no so they find they think that suzanne had been dismembered there the press began to refer to this as the murder room and that day Chicago Mayor Edward Kelly also receives a note, and it says, this is to tell you how sorry I am not to not get old Dignan instead of his girl.

[586] So not to kill the dad instead of Suzanne.

[587] Like I'd rather kill the dad.

[588] Oh.

[589] Roosevelt and the OPA made their own laws, why shouldn't I, and a lot more.

[590] So this is what this means.

[591] At the time, Chicago was home to the largest stockyards in the nation of meat animals and shit you know meat packing stockyards is all about steer there you go yeah I'm from Orange County okay yeah there was a nationwide meat packer strike going on at the time and the Office of Price administration so the OPA was their enemy that's who they were fucking striking against Susan Dignan's father was a senior executive with the wartime meat regulation board and a just recently.

[592] And so he was part of the OPA.

[593] And just recently, another OPA executive had received threats against his children.

[594] Fuck.

[595] Yeah.

[596] Also, a man involved with the black market, with black market meat, which sounds just horrifying.

[597] I mean, no, but if you marinate it just right, you can barely taste.

[598] That's good for your intestines.

[599] You want to really put some meat on your chest.

[600] Old rotten meat that's been sitting out.

[601] Yeah.

[602] So he, a man involved with a black with black market meat.

[603] So basically a fucking, what's it, line crosser, what do they call them, strike breaker, line cross?

[604] Scab.

[605] Scab.

[606] Had recently been murdered by decapitation.

[607] Oh, no. Yeah.

[608] So police considered the possibility that Suzanne's killer was a meat packer, obviously.

[609] Seems to make sense.

[610] I mean, sure.

[611] About the dismemberment, the coroner's expert said, quote, not even the average doctor could be a skillful with the, with the dismemberment, you know, like those.

[612] There weren't any hacking marks, that sort of thing.

[613] And then he said, it had to be a meat cutter.

[614] Like everyone in town and in this time of period is like stirring some shit up without facts.

[615] Like everyone's fucking doing it, including especially the media.

[616] Well, again, I feel like the time that we that existed before the internet existed when you could immediately fact check that it was just a glorious time for us liars where you could just kind of say whatever.

[617] No one could check it.

[618] And if you were person that was like talking to the media so you're the mayor you're somebody high in power nobody would check it you you had there was so much good faith and the media and the fucking this is the time when the media and the police were fucking besties so the cops would want to like get some shit out to be like we need to catch this person here some information yeah that could also not be true right and it would be printed right so it was just a lot of bullshit so saying that whatever um also the perfect setup for like oh it's a meat packer see they're the bad guys oh oh you mean the working class guy the people that are that don't have a lot of money they're striking so that they could not work fucking seven hour seven hour days nope seven days a week yeah you know yes isn't that what they did okay so all right so then with no direct evidence and this is a time before miranda rights existed too really wow yeah they're that recent yeah i think shit okay we should find out about that Yeah.

[619] With no direct evidence, police were like, you know what?

[620] Okay, the janitor at the building where Suzanne lived, let's fucking get his wife to pressure him into confessing.

[621] Oh.

[622] He's a 65 -year -old man named Hector Verbig, Verberg.

[623] Verberg.

[624] She's like, implicate your husband.

[625] And she's like, fuck no. What are you talking about?

[626] Still, the police told the press that this is the man. Like, the police kept.

[627] or the press kept being like we got our guy we got our guy um he's held for 48 hours of questioning during which time he's beaten severely and had to spend 10 days in the hospital afterwards oh shit he said that any more and he would have confessed to anything so it's later determined that he is actually a Belgian immigrant so he couldn't even write English well enough to have written the ransom note he sues the Chicago police department for $15 ,000 at that time $15 ,000 and he's awarded $20 ,000 oh shit they're like Like, no, no, no, you're going to get even more.

[628] The people have spoken.

[629] Yeah, so this is how poorly this investigation is going.

[630] A month after Suzanne's body parts had been found, and after she had been buried, then her arms are found by sewer workers.

[631] So her body is buried without her arms.

[632] It's not a month until they find them.

[633] Horrible.

[634] How horrible is that?

[635] By April, 370 suspects had been questioned and cleared, and the press is starting to criticize the police's ability to catch Suzanne's.

[636] killer so they're turning on each other right and they're like they've got the heat on them investigators say that they had found two partial fingerprints on the ransom note and one smudged fingerprint on the doorknob at the second crime scene and that experts match the handwriting and fingerprint they they linked everything together so that the two the murders of the two women who are so different in every way to the murder and the kidnapping and murder of Suzanne are linked.

[637] They say it's that they're all linked.

[638] Yeah.

[639] Which it seems impossible to me. It's almost just like these are the three most upsetting things that have happened in the city recently.

[640] Right.

[641] We have a monster.

[642] Yeah.

[643] This sells papers.

[644] We're going to take care of everything at once.

[645] Yeah.

[646] I mean, it's a nice idea.

[647] Right.

[648] And it's like, it's weird evidence, even if there were like the experts say that the handwriting matches, it's like, that's clearly bunk science.

[649] We fucking know that now.

[650] And that's not, that's circumstantial evidence.

[651] It's not true evidence.

[652] Anyways, in late June of 1946, police questioned this fucking creepy -ass dude named Richard Russell Thomas.

[653] He was a nurse at the time of the investigation.

[654] No judgment on male nurses.

[655] No, no, no, no, no. But he has medical knowledge so he could dismember.

[656] At the time of the, here's judgment time.

[657] At the time of the investigation, he's imprisoned in Phoenix for molesting one of his own daughters.

[658] So, judgment.

[659] So full judgment from now on.

[660] But he was in Chicago at the time of Suzanne's murder.

[661] And a handwriting expert, again, says there's great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the ransom note.

[662] And that many of the phrases that was used in the ransom note, this dude, Richard Thomas, had used previously in an extortion note years earlier in an attempted kidnapping.

[663] Oh.

[664] So he fucking had tried to do it before.

[665] and has similar phrases in writing.

[666] He pulled down his crime file and he was like, what's my other hand copy, hand paste?

[667] He pulls out his like pre -computer, what's it, font murderer, serial killer font.

[668] That's right.

[669] Oh, and he had medical training as a nurse.

[670] Blah, blah, blah.

[671] Okay.

[672] So, and then during questioning by Chicago police, he totally admits to killing Suzanne.

[673] oh but he's i don't know i don't know about this guy anyways well because we do know that the other guy got beaten for hours and was in the hospital so it could have been just one of those situations right grain assault so they think they have their guy that is until authorities get a new suspect reported to the paper the same day that this thomas dude is uh is happening they find out that a college student was caught fleeing from the scene of a burglary and that when cornered, this guy had pulled a gun on police.

[674] Oh.

[675] And at this time, this Thomas dude had recanted his confession and police let him go.

[676] So they're like, this other guy must be our guy.

[677] So let's talk about this guy.

[678] 17 -year -old William Herons, Hyrens.

[679] 17.

[680] Yeah.

[681] William Hyrens is born.

[682] He was born in November of 1928.

[683] Grew up in Lincolnwood, which is a suburb of Chicago.

[684] He's the son of a poor.

[685] immigrants from Luxembourg and his parents argued constantly as when he was a kid which made him just leave the fucking house and wander around town and eventually he started uh committing petty crimes like burglary just for fun he said just to release tension he would break into houses and steal shit to release to yeah it's like all right bro i mean have you ever heard of baseball or making a friend by 13 years of age he's arrested for carrying a loaded gun which he had stolen from a fucking, Jesus, yeah, he's on a bad path.

[686] That's very Bugsy Malone.

[687] It is.

[688] A search of his house discover, they discover a number of stolen weapons in an old storage shed along with furs, suits, cameras, radios, and jewelries he had stolen.

[689] He admitted to 11 burglaries and was sent to school for wayward boys for several months.

[690] But here's the thing.

[691] He never sold anything.

[692] He never stole for money.

[693] It was almost just like he was bored and wanted to see what he could get away with and do.

[694] Yeah, it's the thrill of it.

[695] Yeah, and he was poor, but he still didn't, like, sell the camera on the street or in like that.

[696] I think he still stole money, but it didn't seem like that was his intent.

[697] He, so he wasn't a cat burglar.

[698] He was, like, a weird, breaking, peeping Tom maybe type of guy.

[699] Yeah, I don't know about the peeping Tom part, but just like, like a no, how about a nosy nelly.

[700] A nosy nelly kid who just like, yeah, who wanted to break some rules and get up into people's business.

[701] Exactly.

[702] So he gets released and then William Hyrins is again arrested for theft and larceny.

[703] This time though, he's sentenced to three years at a school operated by Benedictine Monks.

[704] Uh -oh.

[705] No, that's what I thought too.

[706] It turns out when he's at this school, he fucking flourishes.

[707] Oh.

[708] And it turns out he's smart as fuck.

[709] He's an exceptional student excels in all kinds of crazy fucking subjects that I couldn't do.

[710] Like what?

[711] Latin?

[712] Yeah.

[713] Electronics?

[714] I don't know.

[715] At the time, I could probably do this.

[716] Electronics in 1945.

[717] But this wire here and that wire there.

[718] Use the phone.

[719] You're now an electronics major.

[720] But he's super fucking smart.

[721] His test scores are so high that he gets admitted to the, to University of Chicago's experimental school for gifted students.

[722] Oh.

[723] He's enrolled for a Bachelor of Science wanting to become an electronics engineer.

[724] So he can use the fucking phone.

[725] He loves that.

[726] phone calling people all the time hello it's me richard can you believe this shit oh hoi hoi saying a hoi hoi and a business like voice is the best oh hoi hoi hoi i mean it right so he he starts in the fall of 1945 he was 16 years old at this point and he started at this fucking school that's college a college yeah yeah smart guy college yeah yeah this is a little man tate situation yeah yeah okay congratulations William Hirons, what happened?

[727] Yeah.

[728] Well, here's what happened.

[729] He, of course, couldn't afford any of this shit.

[730] So he worked several jobs, but he's also like, I'm going to go back to being a serial burglar because it's fun and I can make money.

[731] So he keeps doing that.

[732] He kind of like lives this crazy double life.

[733] But at school, he's known as like a good dancer.

[734] He's handsome and charming.

[735] He goes on dates and shit.

[736] Like, people love our friends with him and love him.

[737] He's pretty cute, too.

[738] You want to see a photo of him?

[739] He's a good dancer.

[740] That's what some chick was like.

[741] There was like a...

[742] It can't be him.

[743] Well, it was dance club.

[744] So, like, it wasn't like they'd go dancing.

[745] It would be like, let's all learn how to, like, do the Lindy Hop and shit.

[746] And this trick was like, everyone wanted to dance with him because he was, like, charming and a good dancer.

[747] And a good dancer.

[748] Which is like...

[749] It's the perfect cover.

[750] It's not what we say anymore.

[751] Okay.

[752] Now we're like, oh, he rides a motorcycle.

[753] Yeah, exactly.

[754] So the afternoon...

[755] All right.

[756] So the afternoon that he, like, cops are like, maybe this is the guy.

[757] He, it's June 26, 19.

[758] He's 17 years old.

[759] He goes to the post office to cash a $1 ,000 savings bond, which he had purchased with the money from previous burglaries.

[760] He had a date that night and he needed money.

[761] That's why he was doing this.

[762] He burgls.

[763] Then he takes it.

[764] He buys bonds.

[765] Yeah.

[766] He invests.

[767] Uh -huh.

[768] And then he needs the money to take a lady on a date.

[769] Which a thousand dollars for a date.

[770] I'm like, fucking take me out, bro.

[771] There he is.

[772] Look how cute is.

[773] He has a, you're four.

[774] You're four.

[775] head.

[776] He has a three head for sure.

[777] No, it's just like a strong, dark hairline Karen forehead.

[778] Yes.

[779] Kilgara forehead.

[780] Um, it also, he has very great, great hair, great eyebrows.

[781] Good features.

[782] He, you know, he looks the first, you've got, you're getting text, Stephen.

[783] I want to read those texts out loud so bad, Stephen.

[784] Don't you?

[785] Who, who'd play him?

[786] Um, Rob Briggle.

[787] That's the first person I thought of when I looked at that picture.

[788] If Rob Briggle, I feel like he'd have to be a little smaller, but he definitely has, Italian shorter Rob Wrigal.

[789] You know, we do, Rob Riggle.

[790] We do a Dorfong golf thing where Rob Riggle stands on his knees.

[791] Totally.

[792] And then we shoot around it, you know.

[793] We just make it work.

[794] Yeah, we just make, we, we do a, being John Malkovich kind of small down the set, he gets on his knees, we're off to the races.

[795] Okay.

[796] I figured it out.

[797] I'll call some people.

[798] Great.

[799] I'll be there.

[800] Oh, and so he, okay, so he has a thousand dollars.

[801] on him.

[802] He's like, fuck, I'm going to bring a gun with me. This is a lot of money.

[803] That's why he has a gun on him.

[804] Um, the, he's making, listen, look, this guy, listen, he's making bad decisions, okay?

[805] Yeah, consistently.

[806] Consistently.

[807] This isn't, before I fucking tell why he's innocent about other shit, he sucks.

[808] And like, he's doing some shitty stuff.

[809] Yeah.

[810] Because when he finds out that the bank is closed, he's like, well, I'll just rob a place real quick and get some cash for this date tonight.

[811] So like, you're not, and you're not, and you're not.

[812] And you're not.

[813] And you.

[814] have a gun on you too you're not the best fucking dude well yeah because if you're smart enough to go to college when you're 16 years old right mr gifted we but you're not none of those uh abilities are applying to the any other part of your life right or like it's not even about being smart it's just like fuck everyone fuck everyone else i want what i want i'm going to take it yeah like you're stealing money from people who probably need that money too dude well right and it's yeah that's all power moves and stuff where it's like that you know those breaking people turn into murderers because they don't give a shit exactly and they're doing everything it's like the thrill of it and i'm it's what i'm interested in it's what i want to do it's narcissism like there's part of you that wants to be like well you're 17 you're going to like straighten your shit out and be a good person which i think a lot of people sitting in this loft have done in their lives straighten your shit at least two step even uh yeah but you know fuck i mean it you Yeah, he's so young.

[815] Right.

[816] But, okay, so he goes to burglar a place to get some cash.

[817] He goes to a place he'd been stolen before.

[818] And it's just a few blocks away from the Degnan House apartment.

[819] He's caught while trying to grab the money.

[820] This Jason sues, blah, bitty, blah.

[821] He's cornered by the cops.

[822] And then he fucking pulls his gun.

[823] On the cops.

[824] Yeah.

[825] He doesn't shoot.

[826] But it's like, what the fuck are you thinking?

[827] Is he suicide by copping, maybe?

[828] I don't know.

[829] Okay.

[830] He's suicide by being 17 years old.

[831] He's suiciding by being a stupid fucking idiot.

[832] And then there's like a scoff the cop's gun jams or some shit.

[833] There's a scuffle.

[834] And then it turns into a fucking Laurel and Hardy or like three Stooges pick because another cop grabs a fucking clay flower pot and smashes it.

[835] And smashes it.

[836] It says three of them.

[837] Like it takes three fucking flower pots and smashes this.

[838] It's fucking.

[839] For real?

[840] Yes.

[841] That's hilarious.

[842] That's how he gets.

[843] gets stopped from fighting with his cop.

[844] He was stopped by officers, Tom and Jerry.

[845] Exactly.

[846] Exactly.

[847] He goes unconscious.

[848] They take him to the hospital.

[849] He drifts in and out of conscience.

[850] He says that he remembers someone saying that he's a suspect in the Degnan case, and he feels his fingerprints being taken.

[851] Oh.

[852] Okay.

[853] They raid his houses and shit where he lives.

[854] They find all his stuff from his previous blurglories.

[855] I'm calling him blurglories.

[856] A couple blurglories?

[857] They were called blurglories until 1950.

[858] They were just a blur of birth.

[859] Oh, my God, yes.

[860] Blurglaries.

[861] Cairn, that was amazing.

[862] Thank you.

[863] I'm really trying.

[864] A couple things that are recovered are a scrapbook containing pictures of Nazi officials that he had stolen from a war veteran that was taken when he blur -glered his place.

[865] Yeah.

[866] The same night that Susan Dignan was killed.

[867] Uh -oh.

[868] Which I want to fucking know about this dude who had that photo album.

[869] Like, what a psychopath.

[870] Or did he liberate some French city Nazi occupied and then grab shit?

[871] That happened a lot.

[872] You know what?

[873] His name was Harry Gold, so I'm going to guess you're right.

[874] Yes.

[875] Harry Gold was on the right side, I bet you.

[876] Not a Nazi.

[877] Harry Gold's people came through Ellis Island.

[878] They're like, why don't we clip that Berg off?

[879] Let's move to Chicago.

[880] Act as white as we can.

[881] Oh, World War II, we have to fight Hitler.

[882] Let's go for it.

[883] Let's do it.

[884] Okay.

[885] Harry Gold, I apologize for instance.

[886] you were a Nazi.

[887] Also, The first Jewish Nazi.

[888] He wouldn't be the first.

[889] Who are you going to cast in that?

[890] Okay.

[891] Also in his possession in Williams' shit is a stolen copy of the psychopathia sexualius.

[892] From 1886.

[893] Great shit.

[894] It's the one, it's like the fucking, it's like the psychology of sexuality.

[895] Sexual psychopaths.

[896] Yes.

[897] Sexual psychopaths.

[898] Right.

[899] You know who's read that book?

[900] Who?

[901] Mr. Paul's.

[902] Oh.

[903] Sorry, Stephen.

[904] He never got past chapter one.

[905] Sorry, Stephen.

[906] He pleaded the fifth.

[907] You plead chapter fifth?

[908] The fifth chapter?

[909] That's what's wrong with him?

[910] And he just starts reciting everything in the fifth chapter.

[911] Well, it turns out.

[912] In Latin.

[913] In addition, okay, blah, blah, blah.

[914] They find that.

[915] And then they also find a stolen medical kit.

[916] And they're like, oh, is this shit, this dismemberment stuff.

[917] but it's like it's not um he's interrogate okay so then here's what happens then william is interrogated around the clock for six fucking days he's beaten by police refused food or water he's not allowed to see his parents and or a lawyer he's 17 yeah and like they beat the shit out of him yeah they did he's subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence of sodium penithal which we know as truth serum which we also now know is fucking bullshit and is not doesn't work um while under the true serum he like in it's like a psycho what is it called sexualist it's just like that it's just like it he like concox this person like an alter ego named george merman who's the father ethel's brother um eugene's grandfather that's right who authorize it's basically like has his alter ego that makes him kill people whatever like makes it up on truth serum maybe and other people like or did he make it up is he the killer is it true yeah you know what I mean um and then the fucking media is like oh merman must be short for a murder man and then like just go with that it's just so stupid I would have tabled that for a little bit longer yeah yeah I mean like I understand why you're excited about that idea let's keep workshop not the worst that definitely not the worst and feel great about it like go move go forward with that but it's too uh it's too open why aren't you just saying merman like a mermaid um on the fifth day he's given with okay no anesthesia given a spinal tap no no that's torture uh holy shit then they drive into police headquarters for a polygraph touch which they couldn't do because he was in so much fucking pain and to this day they still don't understand the we still don't know why they gave him a lumbar puncture they it was like for a reason but nobody but it's like they didn't write the reason down no fuck was sorry they did that in a hospital and then drove him to police headquarters Jesus the epidural too right uh no no no i'm sorry before that but it's still it's stuff getting shoved into your spine yeah they gave him that that's okay i hear that with yeah with uh anesthesia ladies who've had babies this is the most like when they have to fucking shove that shit in your spine you don't want a needle in your spine i mean i don't I know I can be really controversial, but I'm going to fucking say it.

[918] You don't want to need a little.

[919] Karen, are you sure you want to leave this part in?

[920] Leave it in, Stephen.

[921] How dare you?

[922] Oh, my God.

[923] All right.

[924] When the polygraph is administered, results are inconclusive.

[925] They're declared inconclusive, although the people, and this is part of him being taken a trial, but later in 1953, the people who had said it was inconclusive published the findings in their book, which I'm sure was just a fascinating read.

[926] And they say that his test, quote, clearly establishes him as an innocent person.

[927] So, like, people are lying.

[928] Handwriting analysis that his writing is the same as the lipstick message and the ransom note.

[929] They say that his fingerprints match the fingerprints on the smudge on the door jam, even though it was a smudged fingerprint.

[930] And they say that it's his fingerprint.

[931] There's also another fingerprint found on the ransom note that they say is his, blah, blah.

[932] blah.

[933] After being intermittently tortured and held with that food sleeper access for five days, he is finally indicted for assault with intent to kill robbery, 23 counts of blurglary.

[934] Jesus Christ.

[935] How's that canned rosé?

[936] I wish I could blame it on that, but I haven't had that much of it.

[937] Blurglary.

[938] Blurglary.

[939] And three counts of murder, babbidi -blah.

[940] He's transferred to the county jail.

[941] And his lawyer who's hired for him is like, No, man, you're guilty.

[942] Let's figure, let's figure this out and keep you out of the fucking chair.

[943] Like, that's his plan.

[944] Wow.

[945] He said that he, uh, all his plan, he thought he was guilty.

[946] His, and that the burglaries alone, he would face life imprisonment.

[947] So he's like, let's just keep you out of the chair.

[948] Well, that guy's pretty negative for a defense lawyer.

[949] Are you supposed to be like over the top optimistic and fake it?

[950] In the real world, yes.

[951] Um, so they, there's a plea bargain, a blargan.

[952] A plea blargon, he's going to, if he pleads guilty, he'll get a single life sentence.

[953] And then, but if he, but then he refuses, all this shit happens where he like is like, I didn't do this.

[954] They're mad at him for saying that.

[955] And then finally, he's threatened with death penalty.

[956] If the case goes to trial, he says later that I confess to save my life.

[957] So he sentenced ultimately the three consecutive life.

[958] for the murders, and, um, but, but, but, but, okay, then the handwriting expert recants in early January of the next year and, uh, said that the handwriting on the ransom note and a lipstick message had, quote, few superficial similarities and a great many dissimilarities.

[959] Okay.

[960] Doesn't matter.

[961] He's fucking already in prison.

[962] Yeah, too late.

[963] And then some have questioned the legitimacy of the lipstick note completely saying that, quote, it wouldn't it would be it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a man to pick up a piece of lipstick and write the message with it basically they think a fucking crime reporter went in there was like this story's boring and wrote the lipstick note you know what's boring about a woman getting stabbed and having her wounds taped shut that's a that was the first murder oh that's the note was on the second murder yeah she wasn't boring either though it's not boring yeah but i mean that's i i don't think that part's true but i just don't and i don't even know if those two murders are are even connected the first two but it does make sense because there was that it was the pulp era where it wasn't enough to have a murder you did have it was that sensationalism yes exactly you had to you had to have a nickname and you had to term things totally you know lipstick on the wall is like what's more upsetting and crazy also that's stolen straight out of jack the ripper oh right write it on the wall and some weird writing of like i'm crazy and also it's the Jews who did it and all that stuff and make people run in every direction.

[964] Well, it's just, it reminds me of the case of the weepy voice killer.

[965] Remember him who calls and is like, make me stop doing this?

[966] I hate his fucking voice.

[967] It's so annoying.

[968] I was just talking to my friend about that.

[969] Oh, my God.

[970] Oh, and I'm not your friend?

[971] You're talking to me about it right now.

[972] No, I'm telling you that we're talking about it right now.

[973] What if you just informed me when we were talking about shit?

[974] That's my new way of going crazy where I'm like, we're talking now.

[975] anyway go ahead I'm talking to my brown -haired friend right now go go ahead and keep talking about what we're talking about okay I'm almost done I swear this is long no no it's good and I apologize um people but oh also they're like okay the fingerprint that you guys found on the doorknob that's a rolled fingerprint which I didn't know about this until later yep what you explain the movie you just did I just basically it's the thing you see in every movie when someone gets booked at the police station and they roll they put your thumb in the black ink and then they roll across a piece of paper exactly which is a fingerprint experts like that's not how you find fingerprints yeah you don't touch the door by going like do you know how many times I did this move and tried to and when I heard that and was like trying to open a door knob in the air to be like would I do that though but I guess it could do that but maybe I'd roll it whatever it's not a thing it's just like not normal yeah because you have to grip it you have to grip it so it would just be the top of your fingerprint anyways so William had been eligible for parole.

[976] What's going on?

[977] I don't know for nearly every year since the 1970s he's been eligible for parole.

[978] The Center for Wrongful Convictions mounted a clemency campaign on the grounds that he had served longer than required and that the evidence used to convict him was unreliable.

[979] But nothing worked.

[980] He just like, they wouldn't let him go.

[981] Constantly, these things kept happening.

[982] Right.

[983] in 2012 when he died in 1980 nope Jesus in 2012 he was 80 he was 1983 years old got it he was 83 years old he was the longest serving inmate in the illinois department of corrections in 2012 he's the first inmate in Illinois to receive a college degree and he like learned all this crazy shit he helped all these fucking other inmates with you know he helped the fucking library and the school system in the and you know so we did a lot of good stuff inside is there a school system in the jail now there is but there was it there's a grammar school and there's well we have them like at g eds like you you couldn't do that then so because he was the first one to get his college degree and he was in there basically as a child and he was super genius so he's like at the very least i can do is help other people right so that's a good sign yeah it is that's not what i don't i don't think most psychopaths think that way right right so um all right so um all right So Robert Ressler, our fucking friend, who's the former FBI profiler.

[984] Our fucking friend.

[985] Yep.

[986] Meaning, we're fans of him.

[987] That's what I always be when I say that.

[988] Yes, he's our fucking friend.

[989] Our fucking friend.

[990] 100%.

[991] He's one of us.

[992] Robert Ressler, former FBI profile credited with coining the term serial killer, mine hunter dude.

[993] You guys remember him.

[994] So he was a nine -year -old living in Chicago at the time of those murders.

[995] And he says, quote, it changed the innocence of neighborhoods where people, had taken for granted that they could have unlocked doors and walk alone at night.

[996] And it's those events that inspired him to become a criminologist, the lipstick murders.

[997] Wow.

[998] Yeah.

[999] The Suzanne's murder itself became a key element in his landmark theories about serial homicide.

[1000] And they actually interviewed him.

[1001] He and FBI profile John Douglas interviewed him in prison.

[1002] And John Douglas remains convinced that shoddy evidence shoddy evidence management prosecutorial overreach and media frenzy led to false accusations with these horrible consequences.

[1003] Wow.

[1004] That's the lipstick killer.

[1005] That's also every time I think of that too, there's obviously like the idea of going to jail and staying there for the rest of your life is a nightmare and people live it constantly and that's horrible.

[1006] But there's, I also always think somebody fucking got away with it and is sitting out there.

[1007] They just went to a different town and did it again that's what i was trying to look at is like are there like it's so hard to find info on this but it's like are there any um you know other murders that could be attributed what if he just went over to boston and changed up his mo that's what i was thinking too something like that where that's what i mean i do love that when things happen and it you know luckily it's been happening lately you know to where we get the satisfaction of like they catch the golden state killer and that means they have now solved viceli ransacker East area rapist and then all those the you know totally the original they were calling it the original nightstocker that it's so satisfying that now I think about that all the time what if they pull up this DNA thing and it's just like because they don't stop they don't just stop no I can't wait to hear more information about I mean I'm going out of my mind which is why I had to stop fucking going on Twitter of like give me more information now about the Golden State Killer like they know this about him And there's nothing coming up yet.

[1008] I know.

[1009] But I can't wait to know, like, why and what happened after 1986, you know, it's just crazy.

[1010] Yes, what were the jobs?

[1011] I mean, yeah, we just want to know everything.

[1012] It's so crazy.

[1013] Well, one of the things that they said that made sense about, you know, when he was like, you had to spend the rest of your life in prison, how awful would that be?

[1014] But at the time, in 1946, if he did get sent to the electric chair, it would have been a matter of months.

[1015] Yes.

[1016] So now it's like 18 fucking years of appeals.

[1017] It wasn't like that then.

[1018] Right.

[1019] So it's almost better that, you know, at least he had this time to make something of his life, even if it was.

[1020] And help other people.

[1021] Pretty shitty.

[1022] He had a chance of getting out.

[1023] It just never worked out that way.

[1024] You have to hope that nowadays, something would have happened, but to get him out.

[1025] But prison reform.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] It's important.

[1028] It is.

[1029] It's so crazy.

[1030] But then, like, what if he did do it?

[1031] Yeah, but.

[1032] I don't think he would have helped people in prison if he did it.

[1033] That's not, that's not a, you can't figure that.

[1034] It's like, he was so nice.

[1035] It's too late.

[1036] I already figured it and it's fact.

[1037] But it's the same thing if you're like, he was so nice.

[1038] I never would have assumed Ted Bundy would have done those things.

[1039] It's the same thing.

[1040] You bundied me and you're right.

[1041] No way, man. People who are fucking into books and reading and smart and helping other convicts aren't less likely to murder children and women.

[1042] But you want them to be nice smart people.

[1043] Well, I just, but it is that thing of.

[1044] psychopaths only do what's good for them well what looks good for him is helping other people in prison except for yeah i guess that's true and look how smart he is how didn't head bunny get off on fucking guys coming and getting legal help from him in prison yeah he was that's how he fucking didn't get beat up and killed you've convinced me yes i love convincing oh hey look there's a spider on the ceiling i just threw my head back in fucking happiness and there's a legit spider on the ceiling I left my glasses downstairs.

[1045] Oh, my God, Carrie's coming closer to you.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] So, somebody suggested this on Twitter, and I was positive I was going to write her name down today when I was like, oh, I am going to do that one, she suggested.

[1048] It's a theme.

[1049] And she, yeah, exactly.

[1050] And she suggested it in a terse way.

[1051] So I imagine she's the kind of person that's going to be very pissed off that I took her idea and didn't give her name.

[1052] Well, good.

[1053] She said, have you guys ever done the blah, blah, blah case?

[1054] I think you should.

[1055] It was something like that.

[1056] It was basically like, come on, get with it.

[1057] Yeah.

[1058] And I was like, that's actually a great idea.

[1059] Thought I could look her up while we were sitting here.

[1060] And my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't go back very far.

[1061] So I couldn't look it up.

[1062] So full apologies.

[1063] Hopefully I'll hear from you.

[1064] Email Twitter first.

[1065] Tell them to fix their shit.

[1066] Let at Jack know to.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] To stop letting Nazis run free on his website and then that we need to be able to go back a couple days.

[1069] Right.

[1070] Just for the podcast.

[1071] Or like search a word.

[1072] Okay.

[1073] You know what?

[1074] Also editing.

[1075] It would just be nice to get one more pass before you send your ideas out.

[1076] Anyhow.

[1077] Guys, this I am going to do the crime of the century.

[1078] The kidnapping of the Lindberg, baby.

[1079] Girl.

[1080] I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis who's sitting on me right now.

[1081] Yeah, don't worry about it.

[1082] Also, it's not my applause.

[1083] It's this girl's whose name I'm not.

[1084] this girl this girl also I woman we should be say woman right we don't know I actually could be misremembering and I'm just attributing like a feminine aspect to like whatever picture maybe she long hair who knows humans we're going to that human is going to let us know um just how pissed they are about not getting credit for you know a case I also can't believe that we haven't done Yeah.

[1085] And as I was doing it, part of me was like, what if George has done this?

[1086] And I was like, yeah, at this point, I just don't care.

[1087] I just want to do what I want.

[1088] I think that, yeah, I think that's our new, our new theme is, did she do this?

[1089] I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling them and just do better each time.

[1090] Oh my God.

[1091] Less and less and less corrections corner.

[1092] Love it.

[1093] And then in like seven years, we're going to get to that journalistic level, people have been wanting us to be at this old time.

[1094] No, we're not.

[1095] Never.

[1096] And then we'll give up on the podcast um yes that's then we'll quietly walk away in the night yeah because you know how quiet we are yeah walk away uh so i got all this information from an episode of nova oh thank fucking god for that bs baby it's like and you can get an education for free on pbs um and the funniest thing is this episode of nova featured john douglas fbi profiler john douglas who you just mentioned he's the main basically they pulled john douglas all the way through of going the limber baby case was and murder was presented in this way and they got to this conclusion john douglas doesn't agree john duggie that's what we call him you know he's in there with his super reasonable face and his glasses holding his glasses in his teeth a friend of the show john douglas solving problems it's very very cool so that's a good that episode of nova you can get on it or you can hear it right now Or you can hear me tell it word for word.

[1097] Although it's not an exact, I survived word for word steel, as I usually do.

[1098] Okay.

[1099] Because there's another, there's a Netflix series called Conspiracy.

[1100] Ew.

[1101] That, um, is good.

[1102] And I got, and they do the thing where they do, it's a compilation.

[1103] So it's like three stories in each episode.

[1104] And this one, what's that?

[1105] So you don't get bored.

[1106] Yeah, they keep it moving.

[1107] Um, and this one is, the episode is disappearances.

[1108] It's also, uh, the other, I can't remember, what the third crime is, but the other first crime in that is the Lord Lucan.

[1109] Oh, you did that guy?

[1110] Disappearance.

[1111] Yes, I did do that.

[1112] I love it.

[1113] Loving it.

[1114] So here we go.

[1115] He has a little backstory for you of why anybody cared about Charles Lindberg in the first place.

[1116] On May 21st, 1927, a 25 -year -old U .S. airmail pilot named Charles Lindberg touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France, in his plane the spirit of St. Louis.

[1117] When I read that name, I'm like, oh, that's a man. I'm like, oh, that's what that is.

[1118] What?

[1119] You know, the spirit of St. Louis?

[1120] Oh, yeah.

[1121] Like, if you would ask me that, I would have confused it with the spruce goose.

[1122] Uh -huh.

[1123] I would have, you know, an Amelia Earhart situation.

[1124] But at least you know it's a plane.

[1125] We know it, maybe it's a plane, or, but now we know exactly.

[1126] That's Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him.

[1127] He was the first man to ever make the nonstop flight from New York to Paris.

[1128] It was 33 and a half hours.

[1129] It was 3 ,600 miles.

[1130] Is that like in one of those planes?

[1131] It doesn't have a face either, so it's just like, it went in your face.

[1132] No, a biplane.

[1133] I'm pretty sure it had a face on it.

[1134] Although, I, why would I, why would I say that if they were two years in?

[1135] Why would I fucking say that?

[1136] Because you're not going to start now with not knowing shit.

[1137] I, look, my brain shows me movies and that's reality to me. And I just report to you yes or no. My brain shows me movies and that's reality.

[1138] And that's my reality.

[1139] I love it.

[1140] um it was 33 hours and we complain about four or five hours to new york city 33 hours and 33 hours alone oh and all all day all night and all you hear is and he couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit stephen's on the stevens got it the plane and do you know thank god the spirit of st louis is uh closed in the front thank god but i bet it's loud as fuck still oh the whole thing It looks like a big aluminum can.

[1141] No temperature control.

[1142] No, it was freezing.

[1143] You know he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle.

[1144] I mean.

[1145] Throwing it over.

[1146] Overboard.

[1147] Throwing it overboard for the first time in human history.

[1148] Okay, so he, when he sets down in Paris and he does this thing.

[1149] So just to give you a little, ooh, did that fucking, huh, God damn it.

[1150] I cut and pasted it and then lost this piece of information.

[1151] But like six other people had tried to do this and three of them died.

[1152] Dude.

[1153] So this wasn't a thing.

[1154] This was not, this was something because there was a prize.

[1155] It was, these people said, whoever does this first gets $25 ,000.

[1156] Jesus.

[1157] So lots of pilots and different people were, um, were, uh, trying for it.

[1158] And it's really hard.

[1159] And some people like had to ditch out and whatever.

[1160] But like people lost their lives trying to.

[1161] make this flight.

[1162] So when Lindberg landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was immediately an international superstar.

[1163] He was the most famous man in the world.

[1164] He got carried around the people that were waiting at the airstrip.

[1165] He never had a walk again.

[1166] He never walked again.

[1167] His feet became curled and afterfeed.

[1168] No, they said they held him, this is in the Wikipedia page, they carried him on their shoulders for over a half an hour.

[1169] Jesus.

[1170] He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for the past 30 hours the first three were great put me down yeah he's like this is the exact position i've been stuck in for 33 hours all right so he he gets the nickname lucky lindy um gets that 25k he also gets thousands and thousands more for all these promotion oh yeah i bet because the Pepsi bottle it's Pepsi company Pepsi's like we want that bottle yeah um but apparently this really opened up aviation in general, but also for air mail.

[1171] So he was the guy that kicked it open over like FedEx and everything.

[1172] Or it's like you want to get something to Europe.

[1173] We're doing now we're going to be able to do that.

[1174] And that was kind of what the whole contest was about.

[1175] Okay.

[1176] Was to kind of focus on aviation, but then like, you know, opening up so that suddenly people were thinking, you know, business in terms of aviation.

[1177] I don't know I'm talking about.

[1178] Okay.

[1179] He was.

[1180] He'd given the Medal of Honor, which is the military's highest award.

[1181] And he was given, he was Time Magazine's first ever man of the year.

[1182] Wow.

[1183] And still the youngest to this day, he was 25 years old.

[1184] That's so young.

[1185] Yeah.

[1186] And he was kind of hot, too.

[1187] Well, do you know who he looks like?

[1188] Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr. Charles Lindberg at age 25 when he made this flight?

[1189] Don't tell me until I see it.

[1190] Okay.

[1191] Who is?

[1192] I'm going to show you a picture.

[1193] Okay.

[1194] You're going to tell me who you think, this man, Looks like.

[1195] Now, please, take your time.

[1196] I'm just killing time while Stephen finds it.

[1197] Was he tall?

[1198] He looked tall in all his photos.

[1199] Yes.

[1200] Okay.

[1201] He was tall.

[1202] He was blonde.

[1203] He had a dent in his chin.

[1204] Love it.

[1205] He was, his coloring was very like caramel but with blonde hair, which you know those people.

[1206] Those people always win.

[1207] They always win.

[1208] Let me pull up.

[1209] Oh.

[1210] It's such an old man of the year thing that it's illustrated.

[1211] That's how.

[1212] long ago this story took place.

[1213] Come on.

[1214] Oh, I'm sorry, I did this.

[1215] No, no, it's okay.

[1216] Hey.

[1217] Because why don't you look at this picture and tell me. Oh, hello, handsome.

[1218] Who you think this looks like.

[1219] Well, I'm going to get this wrong.

[1220] No, you're not.

[1221] He looks, he definitely looks like he's in a Brit pop band from the 60s in this photo, doesn't he?

[1222] Yes.

[1223] Does he look like, God, he's hot?

[1224] Tell me. Paul Holes.

[1225] Look at the face of it.

[1226] He does look like Paul Holes.

[1227] He does look like Paul holes.

[1228] This is the holes episode.

[1229] Well, let's just work all this Paul Holes stuff out now.

[1230] This is the Holes upon Holes episode.

[1231] Okay, so.

[1232] He does look like Paul Holes.

[1233] So, Limburg being the most famous man in the world, and, like, he's being, he's being brought everywhere.

[1234] He's, like, he's being fed it in this really intense way.

[1235] And he's making a ton of money.

[1236] Good for him.

[1237] They said that for everything that kind of he got paid for around that flight, he made like almost half a million dollars in today's money okay so but still dude a lot a lot of i'll take today's money half a million for fuck's sake it's pretty nice uh so that he gets a financial planner a financial consultant from jp morgan it's like big company and uh it's a big company did you know and um the planner's name's Dwight morrow and he's also the ambassador to Mexico what the fuck he was you know this was when they gave important job a ton of important jobs to one white guy um it was the 20s so when morrow uh invites charles limber to come on a goodwill tour of mexico because he's famous and everyone loves him well just by chance morrow's daughter anne is down there and they meet and they fall in love rich people falling in love rich good looking people who have their own planes fall in love all the time deserve everything that is starting to fly okay he teaches her how to fly oh I bet he does yeah girl and then he teaches her how to I don't know love um they get married immediately start a family Charles Lindberg was very vocal and verbal insulting or criticizing I should say other pilots of the day there was lots of you know pilots like it's the Emilia Earhart era where Like being dashing, being, you know, being a pilot was a big deal.

[1238] He was a trash talker.

[1239] He was because he said that Air Force cadets and pilots of the day, they were all, um, they were, had facile attitudes about women.

[1240] Oh, how dare you.

[1241] How dare.

[1242] Whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable and long term with a woman with keen intellect.

[1243] Hey.

[1244] Good health.

[1245] Whoops.

[1246] And strong genes.

[1247] Oops.

[1248] Oh, so you're a Nazi.

[1249] Uh -huh.

[1250] Good one.

[1251] Good eye.

[1252] His, quote, experience in breeding animals on our farm have taught him the importance of good heredity.

[1253] Of good breeding.

[1254] Oh, dear.

[1255] Hey, Chuck.

[1256] No. No. It don't work that way.

[1257] Okay, so that's just a little, that's your, that's your, um, foreshadowing.

[1258] Okay.

[1259] So let's go to the crime.

[1260] This is 1932.

[1261] they uh, uh, Anne and, uh, Charles Lindbergh have been married.

[1262] Um, and they now have two kids and newborn and their baby Charlie, their first son, who is two years old.

[1263] On March, on March, on Tuesday, March 1st, 1932, um, the family staying at their as yet unfinished new house in Hopewell, New Jersey, or right outside of Hopewell, New Jersey.

[1264] Um, they only visited this house on the weekends.

[1265] They were, they were living full -time, at Anne Morrow's family estate called Englewood.

[1266] Englewood, rich people, yeah, represent.

[1267] So no one except for the family would have known that they would have been at this house because they were full -time living at the Englewood estate, but they would come to the Hopewell house and live there just for the weekend, just for fun of like, this is going to be our new house.

[1268] There was, of course, full staff at both houses.

[1269] is.

[1270] So sometime between 8 and 10 o 'clock on March 1st, one or more, they're still not sure, kidnappers, lean a homemade folding ladder.

[1271] So it's a ladder that has three pieces that like slide into each other, an extending ladder, I guess, but it's homemade.

[1272] Lean it up against the wall of the house underneath the baby's window.

[1273] The windows unlocked.

[1274] The kidnapper breaks in grabs the two -year -old they say they theorized that they subdued the two -year -old somehow because no sound was made.

[1275] No one in the house heard anything.

[1276] Everyone was still awake.

[1277] So it's not like everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen.

[1278] Everyone's up and awake downstairs.

[1279] The baby doesn't make a sound.

[1280] They go back out, down the ladder and off into the night with Charlie.

[1281] And they leave a letter on the window cell, so there's another ransom.

[1282] demanding $50 ,000 to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery on April 2nd, and they warned not to contact the police or they'll kill the baby.

[1283] So basically Charles Lindbergh takes over this case.

[1284] Now, it seemed to me that what they were kind of insinuating in both of these specials is that Charles Lindberg really kind of believed he was the shit that the world was saying that he was for making that transcontinental.

[1285] flight.

[1286] He was cocky.

[1287] The transatlantic flight.

[1288] Yes.

[1289] He, some people believe he was a narcissist um, you know, whatever, but, but essentially once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody, he didn't trust the police and he basically told everybody how it was going to go.

[1290] And in doing so, fucked up this investigation, that then also some people afterwards kind of theorized maybe he was doing it on purpose.

[1291] Oh my God.

[1292] So there's, there's suspicion cast, but he basically told the police like, we're going to make this ransom drop you will not tail anybody you will not follow them just do it yeah but but we're going to do it and so the police said okay fine just let us let us organize the money the cash that you're going to drop because what the police wanted to do was um essentially they're using uh goal it was like the gold stand there used to be bills that were like it was gold standard money yeah and they were beginning to phase it out but they were like if if we just use only money with these serial numbers it'll be easier to track what if these people try to spend this money after the fact right so they put together 50 ,000 dollars they put it in this wooden box now of course when the kidnapping happens it's it's everywhere it's the hugest story in the nation and remained so of course it got even worse after but yeah it's the hugest story so when they know that there's a kidnapping and there's a ransom note a retired school teacher named Dr. John Condon, who idolized Charles Lindberg, puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers to be the go -between and make the ransom drop at the cemetery.

[1293] No, don't trust him.

[1294] Lindberg and the kidnappers both say, sounds good.

[1295] So then now...

[1296] What is this world?

[1297] You have to see it in the, in the Nova special.

[1298] The Nova special is really good because it has so much footage.

[1299] It's so crazy.

[1300] I love it.

[1301] There's footage from the trial.

[1302] Like, it's intense.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] But this old guy, it's just another one of those things.

[1305] We're like, it's a guy in a three -piece suit.

[1306] So everyone went, yeah, do whatever you want.

[1307] Come on into this thing.

[1308] And he is a blowhard.

[1309] And he, you know, they say he had good intentions, but he made himself.

[1310] He's one of those people.

[1311] He was, like, looking for the spotlight.

[1312] Opportunist, yeah.

[1313] So basically he goes, he goes to the cemetery to make that drop.

[1314] And he hands over.

[1315] a box full and it's a wooden box full of $50 ,000 in these special bills and he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie can be found the kidnappers take the box of money they give the note they disappear and the information in the note turns out to be incorrect so it was all of that was for nothing yeah so they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers have gotten away scot -free yeah so you saw it coming yeah so six weeks later on may 12th a truck driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he has to use the bathroom he walks into the woods a little bit no this is five miles away from the hope Lindberg's uh hopewell estate or home um and this truck driver finds the deep decomposing body of Charlie Lindberg And the police and the coroner and everybody determined, eventually determined the baby was killed the night that he was taken.

[1316] So it turned out that his skull was fractured on one side.

[1317] And then there was a hole in the other side of the skull, the opposite side, kind of back by the ear.

[1318] And so the police report said that the officer that went and tried to get, the body, you know, like pull the remains out of the mud, had used a stick, and the officer thought he had poked a hole through the skull with a stick.

[1319] But in this episode of Nova, there's a man named Dr. John Butts, and he's the North Carolina chief medical examiner.

[1320] John Butts.

[1321] John Butts, he's retired medical examiner, but he's also an expert on the death of suspicious death in children.

[1322] Oh my God.

[1323] I want to talk to him forever.

[1324] Right.

[1325] And he's so, I love when those guys come on and they're just like, nope.

[1326] And it's basically he's saying, you could not the way, especially children's skulls are, you couldn't poke.

[1327] There's no way to do that.

[1328] And so even if, whether or not this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out or they were trying to mislead, he believes that the original wound, oh, oh, because the theory was from that, the theory became that when the kidnappers were coming back down that ladder.

[1329] This is why this story has stuck this part.

[1330] I know, and it fucking is horrifying.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] They thought at the time the kidnappers were coming down the ladder with the baby and drop the baby.

[1333] Or fell forward at the, because wasn't one of the ladder rungs broken?

[1334] Yeah, this ladder is the ricketyest, dumbest looking thing you've ever seen.

[1335] It's truly like if we went and made our own ladder.

[1336] I mean, anything's possible with a homemade three -tiered ladder.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] Insane.

[1339] And when you see this thing and you can see it in the Nova thing.

[1340] it's like it doesn't even make sense but the problem is with that theory the fracture that only accounts for the fracture on one side right and it doesn't include they're just the baby had more injuries than that and they i think probably maybe in the hopes of simplifying but basically they weren't taking an account and so dr john butts was like that baby must have been laying down and there is a blow to one side of the baby's head which caused the hole by the ear and And the pressure of that caused the fracture on the other side.

[1341] That's his theory personally.

[1342] No buts about it.

[1343] Is that a TV show?

[1344] And then he just goes through and is talking about horrible child deaths.

[1345] Everyone's like, wait, I thought this was.

[1346] He's like, and this out went and there's no butts about it.

[1347] And everyone's crying.

[1348] I don't want to talk about this anymore.

[1349] Two and a half years after the body is discovered, it basically goes cold for a little while.

[1350] Yeah.

[1351] A man in New York State buys 19.

[1352] 98 cents worth of gas, but he pays with a $10 gold certificate with this old money.

[1353] And the attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number, not because he knows it has anything to do with the Lindberg kidnapping, but he knows that money, that currency is going out of use.

[1354] And he wants to make sure, he writes the license plate number down because he wants to make sure he can get a hold of that guy if the bank doesn't take his money.

[1355] What a crazy world to living in that certain currencies going out and not going to exist anymore.

[1356] Can you imagine just living it?

[1357] It's so old -timey.

[1358] It is, but it all looks exactly the same.

[1359] It's the same design as modern money.

[1360] It just had yellow, like, gold things on it.

[1361] I didn't look up what the gold standard was.

[1362] I didn't.

[1363] But, you know, if you're interested in currency or the U .S. meant, I urge you to take a tour and educate.

[1364] yourself.

[1365] I can't do it all.

[1366] Um, so the cool thing is then he immediately calls the bank.

[1367] The bank recognizes that it's on this list of the Lindberg, um, ransom money.

[1368] And they call the police.

[1369] So why do I think I can hold a huge cup of coffee and do this at the same time?

[1370] So that license plate is tracked back to a car that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hopman.

[1371] Um, Hotman is a German immigrant carpenter who lives in the Bronx.

[1372] And when the police searches home, they find a little less than $14 ,000, which is exactly two -thirds of the ransom money.

[1373] No way.

[1374] I'm sorry, one -third of the ransom money.

[1375] Got it.

[1376] That's what I thought.

[1377] Yes.

[1378] But 50 ,000, half is 25, yeah, a third.

[1379] I wrote two -thirds.

[1380] Well, the other person has two -thirds.

[1381] Right.

[1382] It's the non - That's what you meant.

[1383] it's the third that's not the two thirds exactly and that's what i'm trying to say um he has he so basically he has the money with the serial numbers in his house he also has a handgun they're like it's this guy um then they look up they he has a criminal record where he's from in germany he had two arrests one for climbing up a ladder into the second story window what to break into the mayor's house shut your fucking face to break into the mayor's germany to the whole mayor of germany And the other crime was for holding up two women who were pushing a baby carriage.

[1384] Dude, you're like, it's like a map.

[1385] It's a map and it's like, here's one thing I'm not afraid to do.

[1386] Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing.

[1387] Also, I love ladders.

[1388] Also, God damn it, I love to make a ladder.

[1389] Now, on that very topic, if you picture, so this ladder needs to be tall enough to reach a second -story window.

[1390] so it's like he made a normal ladder then he made a slightly smaller ladder that would slide up within that ladder and then a third one like that's how rickety and janky this ladder was i wouldn't claim that thing and they find that the third uh section of this ladder there's a piece of it that's made from yellow pine and when they look up into richard hopman's attic the floorboards of the attic are made of yellow pine pine dude they pull that shit down they pull that piece of the ladder off and they match it exactly so it's one more piece of like confirming evidence that this guy was there and had something to do with it yeah oh sorry also the bottom legs of the bottom part of the ladder broke and that's that's what led them to that um theory that the baby fell and and cracked its head okay because that the part of the later ladder that he left there um the bottom legs were broken okay or had cracked it's rickety as shit it's like why even yeah just get four people to and climb on their backs it would be safer um okay so all of that all of that combined um gets uh richard hotman arrested on september 19th 1934 and talk about this like how it all went so fast back then and there was no but also the world was watching this crime.

[1391] I mean, that, when that baby was found dead, they said the, the nation hadn't mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn like that again until JFK was assassinated.

[1392] It was like, this was everybody's baby.

[1393] And it was this hero, this American hero's child.

[1394] Yeah, but we still have the, it's, it's almost why we have, you know, appeals and shit today is because you didn't have that back then.

[1395] He just fucking killed Ethel and Julius Rosenberg out the fucking bat.

[1396] Yes.

[1397] Their solution to everything was just, okay, great, kill them.

[1398] We solved it.

[1399] Now we don't have to do this paperwork anymore.

[1400] Quick kill them before they ask any questions about what happened.

[1401] Yes.

[1402] Quick, kill, quick beat them for 10 hours and then kill them as quickly as possible.

[1403] They confessed, kill them.

[1404] Everything is quick, kill.

[1405] Okay.

[1406] So, he stood trial January 2nd, 1935.

[1407] And he's found guilty on February 13th the same year and given the death sentence.

[1408] Now, at one point, he maintained his innocence throughout the whole time, including when the cops were like, if you give us the names of your co -conspirators, we will reduce your sentence.

[1409] We'll make sure that you don't get the death penalty.

[1410] And he just maintained his innocence and didn't give any names.

[1411] So on April 3rd, 1936, Bruno Richard Hotman is put to death in the electric chair by the state of New Jersey.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] So now, there's all kinds of theories, of course, about this murder.

[1414] That was it?

[1415] So that case closed?

[1416] Case closed.

[1417] They got the guy.

[1418] And you can see in this Nova special, they have clips of him on, literally on the stand during court.

[1419] And the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly.

[1420] like there's no microphones obviously it looks like he's just sitting on a chair raised up above everybody and the lawyer's like and do you tell me and it's like yelling the place is packed it was a total zoo like that the the surrounding area was packed with like thousands of people going just being at the courthouse every day is super crazy so yeah they just wanted it over they were just like done and they were like oh he's he's doing the thing a guilty person would do which is like no no no I didn't do it the whole time and yeah like even the the phrase the lindberg baby like that was like it was a huge story it was it was a huge story and people wanted someone to pay yeah this was this was like this tragic thing that seemed unnecessary and they wanted someone to pay it so here's the theories of course the first and strongest is that he didn't act alone nobody thinks he acted alone the lick the the liquor the ladder was too rickety somebody needed to hold that stupid thing from the bottom because it was like the dumbest ladder of all time once he got inside there's a baby that would make noise so you have to have you know they're going to have to subdue that baby somehow and then they have to get back out and back down the ladder holding it still nothing about it just couldn't they just don't see how it could be done by one person yeah um and there's just so much organizing and and you know stuff to do also later they do handwriting comparisons they were 15 overall um the police don't know officially because linberg was like you don't get to be a part of this but there were 15 different ransom letters that were written what yeah they they communicated a bunch and you know with the old retired school teacher linberg yeah they were masterminding all of it and at the time and in court they proved the handwriting expert at the time proved that it was richard Hopman's handwriting on all the letters, but of course, modern day and in this episode of Nova, they're just like, yeah, it is inconclusive.

[1421] And it's that super cool modern handwriting analysis where they're taking the, you know, like two letters that always get written together, like a E and a T or whatever.

[1422] And then they're showing how it's like all percentages.

[1423] It's very scientific and exact of like, this matches, this doesn't.

[1424] Because of course, in every letter, a couple things match and then and then some things don't so it's all total like percentages yeah and it depends on what letters are written before and after them and and and where they place in the in the word right i love that shit yeah it's very cool and you can kind of see that they it doesn't match yeah you know from a distance but they needed it they needed it to be at the time so um so they believe that other people were involved also they because of how many things had to go right with a kidnapping like that.

[1425] They believed that it was somebody that worked on the staff in one of the houses.

[1426] Oh shit.

[1427] It was an inside job.

[1428] Oh, shit.

[1429] And they believe that this is a man named Lloyd Gardner, who's a professor at Rutgers, and he has, this is his theory.

[1430] And it's a very strong, interesting theory.

[1431] Strong, strongly interesting.

[1432] So it's his theory that it's, there was somebody inside the house that was helping set it up.

[1433] And, uh, um, they're the only also the only other people that would have known that the Lindberg family would have gone to the Hopewell house because they were full time at the other house.

[1434] So that's like very few people would have known that, would have known to go to the unfinished house that they didn't live in yet.

[1435] Right.

[1436] The police interviewed a servant who worked at the Englewood estate named Violet Sharp.

[1437] And they interviewed her twice.

[1438] She gave contradictory stories between the first and second one.

[1439] When they went back for the third interview, she runs upstairs, drinks silver polish, and dies within minutes.

[1440] Oh, that sounds chill.

[1441] She just immediately commits suicide.

[1442] Oh, my God.

[1443] So then that's very suspicious, right?

[1444] And it's like, well, something's going on in this household.

[1445] Okay, so Lloyd Gardner's theory and maybe other people's too, and this pulls in some dark shit in Charles Lindberg's life.

[1446] he had okay so Charles Lindbergh had a sister who died of heart failure and he started he was a researcher he was an inventor he did a bunch of other shit just besides being in the uh he was in the air force and being a pilot and all that stuff he did a bunch of other stuff too he started working with a Nobel Prize winning scientist named Dr. Alexis Carroll and Dr. Carroll had won the Nobel Prize because he did all this work in vascular surgery.

[1447] And so Dr. Carroll, Lindberg went and worked with him as a medical engineer because they were trying to figure out essentially how to build a heart pump to keep people alive if they had heart failure.

[1448] And that's the work they did.

[1449] But the work that people didn't know so much about is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics.

[1450] Oh, dear.

[1451] And if you don't know, eugenics was this kind of pseudo -scientific belief that got very popular in the 30s in America because of this doctor.

[1452] That we, that human beings should be breeding to make, that basically genetically superior people are the only people that should reproduce.

[1453] A master race.

[1454] Yes.

[1455] And that we should sterilize anybody who's physically or mentally imperfect.

[1456] It was gaining tons of popularity, and Dr. Carroll told Lindbergh, he was the perfect example of the Uber Man, Superman, that eugenics was aiming toward, which, of course, you know, our boy, Charles Lindbergh was like, oh, really?

[1457] Tell me more.

[1458] I love this idea that I, I'm the one everyone should want to be like, and I already was the international superstar.

[1459] And then you go to mirror J .P. Morgan's fucking daughter, like, Jesus Christ.

[1460] master race yeah so he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics which which basically becomes a very shrouded uh pro -nazi anti -semitic movement yeah but it just has this super creepy face of like you know the american dream is almost how they they were trying to market it yeah it's super gross okay so um so the theory is that charlie lindberg charles lindberg's first son was not a healthy baby.

[1461] He had a mild form of rickets.

[1462] There's, rickets is the disease in little kids.

[1463] If they have it bad enough, it basically makes their legs, their knees touch and like their legs are bowed and they're really deformed.

[1464] Charlie's wasn't that bad.

[1465] So that's, some people argue that this are, that this health argument isn't strong enough or like the case can't be made.

[1466] But the theory is that they wouldn't have, that the family was very secret.

[1467] about what all these medical problems were.

[1468] He also didn't have a closed fontanelle, which I love that word because that's what Holly Hunter says in Raising Arizona.

[1469] Something about, I swear that you mentioned that just now, because there's something about this case that has always reminded me of raising Arizona and that they take a ladder and climb up to the fucking second floor and steal a fucking baby.

[1470] Yeah.

[1471] It's kind of exactly, it's like the comedy version of this horrible story.

[1472] And my little fontenelle.

[1473] Mind his fontenale.

[1474] I love him so much.

[1475] Um, mine is fontanelle.

[1476] Mind his fontanelle.

[1477] So, okay.

[1478] So the fontanelle wasn't closed, which is a soft spot on a baby's head and he was two years old.

[1479] So it's, that's very late for that to be happening.

[1480] Also, there's a doctor, um, I think on the conspiracy show who was talking about that, that when the, um, baby, when the remains were found, there were deeper inner organs that were missing.

[1481] And at the time, I think the medical examiner, they wrote it off as, well, it's exposure and wild animals have gotten to it.

[1482] And this woman in the conspiracy one goes, yeah, but you wouldn't be missing.

[1483] Right.

[1484] You wouldn't be missing your heart.

[1485] You wouldn't be missing half of your lung, but not your heart.

[1486] Right.

[1487] You wouldn't like, they're not going to be like, I'm a big fan of lungs.

[1488] Yeah.

[1489] I'm going to take this piece.

[1490] It's not a pick.

[1491] and choose situation it doesn't make sense so they're saying they think this baby had a bunch of surgeries that there was a lot of things wrong and just nobody knew about it it was like the secret and that that the plan was because this was a thing that got done a lot back then that the plan was that it was Charles Lindberg's idea to kid quote unquote kidnap the baby then the baby's missing and then meanwhile they can anonymously check that two -year -old into an institution and basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever have the world will never know that his genes are not perfect and he is not this super bench oh i did not know this yeah well this is a theory so this isn't obviously proven and this is no it's true take it up with nova if you don't like it but um but i think it's fascinating because it would there's nothing about that story that makes sense yeah like this the the mystery of the lindberg baby kidnapping is why, why would you kill a baby if you got the money for it?

[1492] What monster would just immediately same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off anything?

[1493] Just kill the child.

[1494] It doesn't make sense.

[1495] And then keep going with it.

[1496] And also then just that those things, those behaviors are connected.

[1497] Like, if you're into eugenics, there's some thing going on inside you that is really gross and really creepy.

[1498] And it continued on.

[1499] so um so basically after the kidnapping and then the body the body being found the public attention and pressure was so great on the Lindbergh family um that they and apparently in one of these stories they said that there was another kidnapping threat against their baby john their new baby so they um they were given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed names and they took a boat like they left in the middle of the night and took a boat to england and ended up going to live with family that they had there in in wales is where they they ended up going to wales and then they went out to some island off the coast of france they were just like tried to get away from everybody um but so they lived in europe for the next three years but the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking europe shit and the Nazis were coming to power yeah and the Nazis had heard all about how much um charles lindberg was into eugenic and and they were like, guess what?

[1500] We're into eugenics, too.

[1501] Why don't you come and take a tour of the fucking factory?

[1502] So that basically, he came out as a very huge anti -Semite and a big pro -Hitler.

[1503] Like, he was, his whole thing was like, I don't know what Hitler has to be so extreme about everything, but they do have great ideas.

[1504] He was that guy.

[1505] And nobody was telling him.

[1506] Like, I'm not a Nazi, but.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] But I do love, I love their ideas.

[1509] And they're organized or all that bullshit.

[1510] Okay.

[1511] So basically he gets asked to return to the United States to be a consultant for the U .S. Air Force, because I think the military was like, we're about to get into this thing.

[1512] At that point, when they come back, they have, he and Ann had had five children.

[1513] Jeez, this.

[1514] And they say over the years, his kids only saw him a couple months a year.

[1515] Wow.

[1516] That he was really detached distant father.

[1517] and then so none of that explains the kidnapping and none of that attributes to anything and there's lots of distant fathers that you know do shit but then here's another weird twist in 2003 these people in germ these german citizens come forward and announce that they are secretly they were secretly fathered by charles linberg in the 50s what seven adult people so what happened was and this turns out to be fucking true no what that in the like late 50s he goes over to Germany and he starts having an affair uh he has an affair with a woman named Brigitte Hessheimer um she has he has three children with Brigitte and then Brigitte's sister Marriette who's a painter he has two kids with her sister oh my god and then with his private secretary in Europe he has a her name is uh Voleska I just have the name Velasca.

[1518] He has a son and daughter with her.

[1519] Oh, my God, dude.

[1520] All seven kids, they're born between 58 and 67.

[1521] And in 1974, Charles Lundberg died of lymphoma and 10 days before his death.

[1522] He wrote letters to all three women begging them not to reveal the secret.

[1523] And so none of them did.

[1524] And the only way they found out was one of, I believe it was Burrude.

[1525] I could be wrong about that, but I believe it was Brigitte's daughter found, they all had suspicions because he told them they were all, they, they met him and like would see him once a year, maybe twice a year over the years.

[1526] But he said his name, uh, uh, was shit, I won't be able to remember it.

[1527] I don't have it written down.

[1528] It was something weird like Carl Kent or something like that.

[1529] Just a weird fake name.

[1530] That's the only way they knew their father.

[1531] but then did you get it yeah thank you car oh caroo kent c -a -r -r -e -u make that shit up man it's caroo kent would show up and be like it's me your dad merry Christmas bye so brigitte's daughter finds love letters and photographs puts it together they all get their DNA tested and then they find out there's it's seven children that he fathered was busy and it goes along with his eugenics thing of i am the i am the one that needs to propagate and have tons of kids so i'm going to go and have all these affairs and just have kids all over the yeah i have to it's for the fucking greater good it's for the greater good of shit of fucking germany um so so i mean that's just kind of like an interesting weird creepy thing where just like who is this person who is this mystery man that like the world held up as this great human being because he made a solo flight across the Atlantic.

[1532] The good part about this horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the hugest story like it's all anybody talked about for years and years is that the day after this baby was kidnapped, Congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense.

[1533] Wow.

[1534] So that's when they put it into effect that if you take a person over state lines.

[1535] Oh, right.

[1536] Yeah.

[1537] it's a capital offense.

[1538] And basically that's, it was and it was called it then.

[1539] And, you know, although remains popular at the time, it was the crime of the century.

[1540] That's incredible.

[1541] They never found any, the other two -thirds people that it could have been.

[1542] They're in, if you watch this Nova special, there's a guy on there.

[1543] And it reminds me of like a lot of the Black Dahlia stuff where there's a guy on there who's like, my father knew a person and he overheard this conversation and it could have been this guy and it could have been this guy.

[1544] It feels like it would have been that someone related to that the dude, the one third dude.

[1545] Yeah.

[1546] He's a brother -in -law.

[1547] It's always the brother -in -law.

[1548] Well, because he was this German immigrant, there was other people on the city block that he lived on that were from the same city that he was from in Germany.

[1549] And so the landlord of this guy who says his father overheard a conversation that that man's landlord, lord was from the same city as hotman so the theory it's very strong theory but it is just theory and it kind of goes all over because it's basically this guy's father overheard a conversation where they all talked about inglewood and they said the name bruno and da da da da and then there's pictures and whatever but it's it nothing is conclusive so and didn't include it they never found the money the other money right like no one ever spent it well but there's the one guy that they suspected one of the two people that they really this guy knew and they suspected took a what at the time would have been a $70 ,000 world cruise holy shit with his wife and there's pictures of him on the cruise and they came he came back from Europe um after hotman was uh was found guilty so basically they took cruise got the fuck out of dodge went around the world on a boat and then when they heard that they got the guy and they were sending him to the lecture chair they were like okay we can come back now that was him he's got i think it was him yeah wow yeah that's crazy it's but the it's very sinister and and definitely unproven but the idea that he just wanted this not perfect baby out of the house yeah or maybe what they were going to do is like take take the baby out put him in a facility something accidentally happened and he he died.

[1550] Maybe they were going to replace him with like a adopted perfect baby that they were going to say was him.

[1551] Oh, maybe.

[1552] You know?

[1553] Could be.

[1554] I mean, when you see, there's lots of, they have lots of home video and these black and white videos of this baby.

[1555] It's not like this baby looks like anything is wrong.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] But I feel like if he was under this pressure to be the perfect, um, human being.

[1558] And that that's the whole theory of eugenics is like perfection, perfection.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] Then you you can't have a baby that has turned in knees, rickets, you know, like, that is even in any way developmentally slow.

[1561] Yeah.

[1562] Maybe the baby that they found that was dead wasn't Charlie.

[1563] Maybe they put Charlie in a fucking institution, killed some other baby to be like, nope, Charlie's dead.

[1564] And then they could, like, have this sick baby that they visit whenever they want.

[1565] Maybe.

[1566] That's, I think that's it.

[1567] You've done it.

[1568] I did it.

[1569] you know what i mean though you've acted in you've added another twist yes well but that basically they they did it yeah that's even darker because then they're killing a baby right yeah yeah it's i mean the whole thing is it would be nice to have some answers for Christ's like let's DNA test that shit go on genealogy dot net test that shit right get on there um well fuck that was great oh thanks i love it i mean it was fun it was fun to watch a TV show and then just write down what they say.

[1570] I got to give that a shot sometime.

[1571] I feel like I'm going to get better about not doing that.

[1572] I remember my friend who had never heard the podcast before.

[1573] He listened to it.

[1574] We worked together and we went to work the next day.

[1575] He goes, you just retold a TV show?

[1576] And I was like, yeah, I do that sometimes.

[1577] I always hear, I have his voice in my head when I sit down to do that.

[1578] Oh, that's all I want to do.

[1579] We've been quite busy.

[1580] Look.

[1581] Look and listen.

[1582] To us.

[1583] Always.

[1584] What's your fucking hooray this week, Georgia?

[1585] I have two.

[1586] One of them is that I took Twitter off of my phone.

[1587] Well, fucking hooray for you.

[1588] Thank you.

[1589] It didn't even cross my mind that that was an option.

[1590] Like, I was like, I just can't stop looking and scrolling and seeing this news and bad news.

[1591] And then it's just like dumb news, like shit about Kanye, I get angry.

[1592] Yeah.

[1593] Like I just got.

[1594] And then it was like, someone wrote like, I'm taking Twitter off my phone.

[1595] And I was like, oh my God.

[1596] I didn't even realize that that was an option.

[1597] So I did it.

[1598] and I'm having withdrawals, but I think it's for the best.

[1599] And then my...

[1600] Well, you're missing some quality content for me because I'm procrastinating so much.

[1601] All I can do is tweet because I'm like sitting there supposed to be turning something in.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] And then I'm like, but I have this good idea.

[1604] Okay.

[1605] Let me know if anything good comes up.

[1606] Let me know if there's any quality Golden State Killer updates.

[1607] I will for sure.

[1608] That's the only place I was getting updates from.

[1609] Okay.

[1610] But then I couldn't stop checking.

[1611] Okay.

[1612] My other one is the TV show Barry.

[1613] that I'm enjoying so much.

[1614] It's so good.

[1615] It's what's his name?

[1616] Barry.

[1617] Bill Hater.

[1618] Barry.

[1619] Bill Hater.

[1620] It's so good and charming and funny and dark.

[1621] I love it.

[1622] Bill Hater plays a hitman who has to pretend he's on a hitman.

[1623] He pretends he's an actor in L .A. And I wanted to say it earlier, but it's basically every conversation we over here.

[1624] It's like, it's this TV show in that.

[1625] It's so fucking funny.

[1626] Yeah, I like that.

[1627] I've only seen the first two, but I loved it.

[1628] And there's so many good, Henry Winkler, God bless his soul.

[1629] So great in that.

[1630] You know, I went to camp with his daughter.

[1631] She was in a cab.

[1632] We were in a cabin.

[1633] Was she nice?

[1634] Yeah, yeah, everyone wanted to be friends with her because she was the Fonz's daughter.

[1635] Yeah, that'd be tough.

[1636] She was nice.

[1637] I think she's like a preschool teacher now or something lovely.

[1638] You're just like.

[1639] I'm sure I've already bragged to you, but we, when we worked on Hollywood squares, when we wrote for Ellen, we were just like two writers that came with her and he was the EP and we when you do stuff like that of like bring your own writers yeah there are people who are hired to write for that show that do not like it yeah because like who the fuck are yeah yeah yeah and um and but everyone was super nice to us but I was always just like so uncomfortable and Henry Winkler came and it was like are the Karen's in here and he acted like he did the exact opposite of that like he basically came and like pretended like we were special and I just remember looking at him like you a did not have to do this yeah be no one ever does this and see it's like he's the mayor of hollywood like he knows how beloved he is you know it's so funny is i remember as like a fifth grader after when camp was over we all got taken back to the meeting where the parents would pick everyone up like after two weeks of being away all crying and then she was like come meet my dad and i look up and i'm like henry winkler and he shook my hand and looked down and me nice to meet Like, he was so nice.

[1640] Yes.

[1641] And he's so fucking funny.

[1642] He's so good in the show.

[1643] It's, the part's written perfectly for him.

[1644] But, like, that intense acting, it's, he's just so good.

[1645] He's ridiculous.

[1646] Yeah.

[1647] It's a really, it's a really good show.

[1648] Okay.

[1649] What's yours?

[1650] Um, well, I have to say mine, uh, mine is, I tweeted about this, but I was watching.

[1651] My friend Bridger told me to watch, um, a chef's table pastry, which is, a new season.

[1652] Right.

[1653] And I think it's slightly shorter than their normal ones.

[1654] It seems like a little specialty one they put out.

[1655] And the, there's, say there's five.

[1656] The third or fourth one is this guy in Spain named Jordi Rocha.

[1657] And he is, basically has been named the top pastry chef in the world a bunch of times.

[1658] Does he make those beautiful, they look like apples or pears and they're like glistening and gorgeous?

[1659] And then they crack open.

[1660] and there's stuff inside and there's like meringue and shit inside yes i follow him on instagram oh like he's super beautiful yeah but his i don't know i didn't see him but his pastries are gorgeous no there it's art it's not it's it doesn't seem like a dessert in any it doesn't look like you're supposed to eat it at all yeah and the first one so he's he's super hot he's well he's just it's the thing i it's a thing i have yeah he's very um swarthy with a big patrician nose and he but like but very soft eyes and he talks about so his older brothers own the restaurant his is one older brother's a smolier his older brother's the head chef it's this michelin it was a one -star michelin rated restaurant already and they tried to get him to work there he's 12 years younger than them oh my god so they were like you have to come and be the waiter well he was like a party guy and he was just like whatever i don't care and he never really like caught on and then he finally asked to get moved into the kitchen because the waiters worked so late and worked so hard he didn't want to do it so he's like i'll be in the kitchen and he was just kind of like messing around the kitchen kind of sucking and then he got moved into the pastry section because they had this oh shoot i'm not going to be able remember his name but like really world famous pastry chef who was like here have him be in my department then he's not being like hounded by his brothers all the time like he always is and he can come and i'll teach him how to do pastry well then and they show this thing he makes it's called the the city that they're that this restaurant and in is like it's called i'll never remember how to say it but it's like i thought it was i thought we were in italy the first two times i watched it i assumed we were in italy because it all looked like italy and felt like italy but it's spain and say it's like it's genoa or something like that and the first thing they show that he made is called the flowers of genoa and he makes he takes this strip of what looks like fruit roll up and he cuts it out it's the skyline of their city and then he makes it it's 3D so he's having part of it stand up but then he paints the plate underneath so that when you look at it it looks like this 3D trick of the eye where there's flowers there's these little things you have to see it when i was watching it they reveal they do the thing where they show him making it and then it just says flowers of genoa or whatever the name the city is and i on the couch went oh my god like it's that incredible looking and then he's like he's talking in it about how his brother he had a really big nose growing up and his brothers would always make the joke of like calling him and then he would turn his head and everyone would duck and it's all the man is beautiful yeah and you can tell he doesn't know that or understand it and it's that thing you just go like, that's how it is with everybody.

[1661] Everybody thinks these horrible things about themselves because of their asshole bullies and siblings or whatever.

[1662] And he's like this magical artist.

[1663] So he based, his desserts basically made this restaurant go from like a one star Michelin, which is a huge accomplishment anyway, to a three star Michelin rated restaurant where it's just incredible.

[1664] I'm telling you the whole episode and I don't need to.

[1665] Yeah, I love it.

[1666] I'm going to watch it.

[1667] I've had a ton of coffee.

[1668] I just love him.

[1669] I just love him.

[1670] I love, like, the idea that he didn't even know that that's what he wanted to do or that it wasn't like he was trained for it, like, all his life.

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] He, like, discovered it and is so good at it.

[1673] Like, I love it.

[1674] I love it.

[1675] I love him.

[1676] Also, he whispers the whole time, which is kind of my jam.

[1677] Anyway, a chef's table is always, it's just one of the best made television shows there is.

[1678] Okay, I'm going to watch it.

[1679] Okay.

[1680] Yay, that's it, right?

[1681] Fucking hooray.

[1682] Go to my favorite murder .com.

[1683] for whatever.

[1684] I don't know if you need something for your needs.

[1685] And if you want to follow along with us as we go on our European tour, join the fan club cult.

[1686] Join that fan cult because we're going to start giving you that content that we promised of, you know, special shit that you only get in the fan cult.

[1687] That's right.

[1688] Uh, thanks for listening.

[1689] And stay sexy.

[1690] And don't get murdered.

[1691] Goodbye.

[1692] Goodbye.

[1693] Elvis.

[1694] You want cookie?

[1695] Bye.

[1696] Nice.

[1697] Bye.