Special Ep - Fox’s Prodigal Son Special!

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Today's bonus episode is supported by prodigal son, a new drama on Fox.

[2] For Malcolm Bright, murder is the family business.

[3] His father was a notorious serial killer called The Surgeon.

[4] To understand how his dad became a murderer, Malcolm became the best criminal psychologist there is.

[5] Now he's making amends for his father's wrongs by working to solve crimes with the NYPD.

[6] Emmy and Golden Globe nominated actor Michael Sheen and Tom Paine star in Prodical Son, airing Mondays beginning September 23rd at 9 -8 Central on Fox.

[7] Goodbye.

[8] Are we ready?

[9] Hello.

[10] And welcome to a very special episode of my favorite murder.

[11] That's right.

[12] It's special.

[13] It's unique.

[14] It's a Monday.

[15] That's right.

[16] It's a bonus episode.

[17] Bonus.

[18] Brought to you by the brand new Fox Drama Prodigal Son.

[19] That's right, with the super, super hot Lou Diamond Phillips.

[20] Oh, you're going straight to LDP?

[21] I am like, this is my chance to get Lou Diamond Phillips an honorary achievement award for in the Emmys.

[22] Is that a thing?

[23] Yes, they do honorary achievements for childhood Georgia crushes.

[24] Corey Feldman, posthumous.

[25] Fucking, who else is there?

[26] You tell us.

[27] Keanu Reeves.

[28] Hey, baby.

[29] Yum. No, but this is really, this is not about Lou Diamond Phillips.

[30] Well, it kind of is.

[31] Yeah.

[32] It's about this new show on Fox called Pradical Son, where the great British actor Michael Sheen plays a father, a husband, a husband, and a serial killer.

[33] That's right.

[34] Yeah.

[35] And then his son, who it turns out is also British, but you couldn't tell.

[36] No, no, not on the show, just in real life.

[37] Right, exactly.

[38] Then his son, Tom Payne, who like went through his tumultuous childhood because his dad turned out to be a serial killer.

[39] Yeah.

[40] He's like, well, I'm going to fucking solve all the serial killings then.

[41] And he becomes an FBI agent.

[42] How it happens in real life.

[43] Right.

[44] Does he need his dad's serial killing help to solve crimes?

[45] Probably.

[46] Does he need his mother's approval who has turned against, obviously, her ex serial killing husband?

[47] Probably.

[48] It seems like it.

[49] Are they super rich?

[50] Yes.

[51] Does Lou Diamond Phillips come in as the fucking fatherly father figure that he never had?

[52] Hell yes.

[53] Yes, he does.

[54] Look at him.

[55] La la la la bumba.

[56] He has still got it.

[57] So it's a very exciting new drama on Fox.

[58] And this, basically, we're doing an episode that's brought to you by.

[59] And so we themed it out.

[60] It's a special themed episode where it's basically kind of like weird families.

[61] Like an element of family in the story.

[62] Yes.

[63] Okay, we can do that.

[64] And then at the very end, Bellamy Young, who plays.

[65] that rich now ex -wife and mother of Tom Payne.

[66] We have her on for an interview.

[67] Yes.

[68] And I just wrote, she is delightful.

[69] She was so lovely to talk to, so interesting.

[70] She has a hometown that's heartbreaking.

[71] I mean, it was such a great conversation.

[72] It was.

[73] Really fun.

[74] So, yeah, we're very excited to get to do this very special episode for you.

[75] So thanks for listening.

[76] You haven't even listened yet, but we appreciate that you are.

[77] We just like you.

[78] And you will.

[79] We do.

[80] Wait, so in this world of special episodes.

[81] Yeah.

[82] Who goes first?

[83] Stephen?

[84] I wasn't ready for this.

[85] Stephen, you have to be ready for everything.

[86] Stephen, we've been preparing for this moment for six years.

[87] And you can't get it together?

[88] Can you please be more like Lou Diamond Phillips?

[89] Can't you just like Lou Diamond Phillips?

[90] Always have a quarter in your pocket.

[91] So we do heads or tails.

[92] Always be prepared like Lou Diamond Phillips.

[93] Okay, I'll go first.

[94] Do you want to go first?

[95] Sure.

[96] Is yours like super exciting?

[97] I'm, well, I'm excited about mine and you know what it is because when we went to pick.

[98] so this never fucking happens yes it really doesn't amazingly so but when um the we came up with the theme of this should be we should do family crimes to kind of support the theme of the of the show um this one came to mind immediately so i immediately texted it today because i was like i want to make sure i get this one and when we do like live shows or shows like this we make sure that the other one isn't doing the one we picked so we just text j the one we want to do and say this one okay can i do this or I call this one and he says yes or no. It's always been yes.

[99] You can do it because we never pick the same story.

[100] No, no, no, because clearly there's a million stories to pick from.

[101] But in this one, it came to mind immediately.

[102] I realized we'd never done it and couldn't believe it.

[103] And so texted the pick to Jay.

[104] And then I would say a couple days later, you were like, damn it, you picked mine.

[105] And because this is a very typical story of, you know, generously I'll say, bizarre family situation.

[106] Family woes.

[107] Yeah.

[108] So this is the story of the original helicopter mother, Shante Kimes, and her son, Kenny.

[109] Holy shit.

[110] So I'm about to tell you a story that I got, and Jay did the research for me. I got sources from a Vanity Fair article from 2000 by a writer named Susanna Andrews called Shante Kimes, Mother Murderer, and Criminal Mastermind, as well as Wikipedia, MurderPedia, and Shantay's L .A. Times obituary.

[111] I also last night watched this made for TV movie like mother like son the strange story of Shantan Kenney Kimes.

[112] It's on YouTube.

[113] It's so good at starring Mary Tyler Moore.

[114] Yes.

[115] As Shanty Kimes, she's amazing.

[116] Does she play like the quintessential, like this is the type of person we're talking about like the quintessential Mary Tyler Moore or is she like out of the box?

[117] She's out of the box.

[118] This is not the MTAM you thought you knew.

[119] She's a she's a schemer and a con artist and weirdly sexual with everybody.

[120] And it's very uncomfortable to watch our hero, Mary Tyler Moore, be such a villain.

[121] Yeah, I'm surprised.

[122] Gene Stapleton is in it, who if you aren't familiar, she's a great actress.

[123] She was, is it all in the family, Stephen?

[124] Yes, all in the family.

[125] That's how she's very well -known, but she is an amazing actress.

[126] When you see her in another part, you're like, oh, my God, she's so good, because it's very different.

[127] And then Gabriel Olds plays Kenny Kimes, and I think he is from a soap opera, but he is great.

[128] So anyway, and that made for TV movie was based on the book, The Mother, the Son, and the Socialite by Adrienne Hill.

[129] So there's lots of things if this story interests you.

[130] You can get the down and dirty details in lots of ways.

[131] So let me get into it.

[132] We will start with a woman named Irene Silverman.

[133] So Irene, she's a retired ballerina.

[134] She was in the New York City Ballet, a company member, but she was also an elite socialite.

[135] And she lived with her husband, multi -millionaire mortgage broker Sam Silverman in an extravagant $7 million townhouse on East 65th Street in Manhattan.

[136] Seven million.

[137] Seven million in the like 70s.

[138] Oh my God.

[139] Yeah.

[140] And so she is an extrovert.

[141] She throws parties all the time.

[142] She's a true socialite.

[143] Sounds fun.

[144] Yeah, right.

[145] Having money.

[146] She's always entertaining, entertaining guests has tons of friends.

[147] Canopies everywhere.

[148] Canapes.

[149] Canopay.

[150] Canapes.

[151] And canopies.

[152] Canapes.

[153] Living that canopy life.

[154] Canopay existence.

[155] So when her husband Sam passes away in 1980, Irene decides that she's going to take their humongous townhouse and turn it into like an apartment building, into basically luxury apartments.

[156] So on average, the rents of these individual apartments go for about $6 ,000 a month, which in today's money would be.

[157] be $17 ,500 a lot.

[158] For an apartment.

[159] For an apartment in on East 65th Street.

[160] Oh, you know.

[161] In Manhattan.

[162] All right.

[163] Right.

[164] That's bananas.

[165] So, um, her tenants are varied and impressive and include such luminaries as the Marquess and Marchioness of Northampton.

[166] You know I'm reading a phonetic spelling of both of those.

[167] The Martian of Northampton.

[168] Martianess.

[169] The Martianess of North Hampton.

[170] Not a Martian.

[171] Take me to your leader.

[172] Daniel DeLuis and Shaka Khan.

[173] Oh shit.

[174] I would pay.

[175] We don't know.

[176] That would be amazing.

[177] Let's not start gossip.

[178] But yes, they were deeply in love.

[179] Yeah, with that cast list, I'd pay up to $18 ,000 a month to live there.

[180] Can you imagine?

[181] We just get a camera installed so I can watch.

[182] You go downstairs to get your mail and there's Shaka Khan.

[183] Just like, hey girl, what's up?

[184] You're like, you want to go out partying?

[185] Let's party.

[186] Let's party.

[187] So, okay, we're going to skip ahead about 20 years after she's established these beautiful luxury apartments.

[188] Now Irene is 82 years old.

[189] On June 14, 1998, a young businessman from Palm Beach named Manny Garen arrives at Irene's home asking if he can rent one of her apartments.

[190] He is traditionally good -looking.

[191] Uh -huh.

[192] Like Lou Dimeon Phillips.

[193] No, Lue Dimeon Phillips.

[194] It looks like a special something.

[195] You know, everybody has different tastes.

[196] We talk about people being good -looking and beautiful.

[197] beautiful all the time but who knows what people actually like you don't get a fucking say in it that's right traditionally good looking means if someone drew a picture that's what a good looking person would look like right look Hugh Grant traditionally good looking traditionally good looking right but there's lots of people who are good looking in different ways anyhow self -esteem he's good looking traditionally well -spoken very friendly very charming very smooth and he tells Irene he was referred by a mutual friend.

[198] She recognizes the name.

[199] Oh, you know, it's all great.

[200] Sure.

[201] Oh, the Martianess from...

[202] It's, yeah, it's the Martianess or the Marquess.

[203] Unfortunately, Mani doesn't have any ID on him.

[204] Can't remember his Social Security number.

[205] And the only...

[206] He doesn't have any other references.

[207] But he promises he's going to get them to Irene the next day.

[208] And then he gives her six grand in cash for his first month's rent.

[209] So ordinarily, Irene is actually very careful about stuff like this, but because they have the mutual friend and because he's paying in cash, and probably because he's traditionally good -looking and incredibly charming, she allows him to move in.

[210] The day of?

[211] Day of.

[212] Fuck that.

[213] Background check, everyone.

[214] Well, and also, well, 98, early days of the internet.

[215] Yeah, that's true.

[216] And an 82 -year -old woman wouldn't realize that was all there at our fingertips.

[217] Okay.

[218] So over the course of the next three weeks, Manny goes from being a charming, suave businessman type to a creepy weirdo.

[219] He never turns over the proper ID or references.

[220] He will not allow Irene's maids into the unit to clean, which goes along with your $6 ,000 rent.

[221] Pretty nice.

[222] Kind of like a hotel.

[223] He always hides his face from the security camera in Irene's lobby.

[224] Chill.

[225] Very cool and chill.

[226] And he always has strange guests in his apartment, including an older woman who seems to be there all the time.

[227] Shaka Khan?

[228] Shaka Khan.

[229] Shaka Khan.

[230] Shaka Khan.

[231] She would, Shaka would never go down there.

[232] She knows creeps when she sees him.

[233] That's right.

[234] Now, in the Mary Tyler Moore movie that I watched, she tells, when the maid comes, she tells her that she is Manny's assistant and is very rude to the maid.

[235] So she doesn't make any friends.

[236] So basically after the first week, Irene decides she's going to ask Manny to leave.

[237] She's like, you had your month enough of this.

[238] He flatly refuses.

[239] Which must have been creepy.

[240] Can you imagine a traditionally handsome person flatly refusing something?

[241] Then you're just like, well, I guess this is the new reality.

[242] Yeah.

[243] Because the hot guy doesn't want to.

[244] Right.

[245] Well, here's what Irene does because she didn't take any shit.

[246] She cuts off his phone line thinking that's going to get him out of there.

[247] And she begins eviction proceeding.

[248] So she's immediately kicking herself for being nice.

[249] Yeah.

[250] Which is what happens.

[251] Always a mistake.

[252] So on the evening of Saturday, July 4th, 1998, Irene had, has friends over because it's 4th of July and they also have noticed Manny's strange behavior.

[253] She, Irene explains the whole situation and her friends are very concerned and they say, you know, like, do you need help?

[254] What do you want us to do?

[255] She says that she can handle it.

[256] They know she's tough as nails.

[257] So, you know, everybody feels okay about it.

[258] The next morning, July 5th, 1998, Irene asks one of her maids if she would run some errands for her and when When the maid gets back from running those errands, she can't find Irene anywhere in the house.

[259] The maid immediately contacts Irene's business manager, who then decides to contact the police.

[260] And when the police search the home, they don't find any signs of a disturbance.

[261] There's no blood, any signs of a struggle to indicate that there was violence or an incident of any kind.

[262] So they start questioning Irene's friends and the tenants.

[263] But Manny Garen is nowhere to be found.

[264] And when they run a name check on that one new mysterious tenant, the name Manny Garan is fake.

[265] So suddenly the mystery tenant is now a possible suspect in Irene's disappearance.

[266] It just so happens that on that same night, July 5th, a mother and son by the name of Chante and Kenneth Kimes, are arrested in front of the Manhattan Hilton for stealing a Lincoln Town car from a dealership in Cedar City, Utah.

[267] Wow.

[268] Yes.

[269] They finally tracked them down and they get arrested.

[270] So when a detective who was on the scene for the Silverman case sees the story of the Times arrest on the news, he sees Kenneth and says that looks exactly like the description of Manny Guerin.

[271] Traditionally handsome.

[272] Hey, that guy's traditionally handsome in a way that bores me, but that I also immediately trust for reasons I can't explain.

[273] So he puts it together that they are one and the same person.

[274] So on July 7th, 1998, the NYPD have Shantae and Kenneth Kimes properly identified and in custody.

[275] And that's when they discover that the mother and son are being tracked by the FBI as suspects for a slew of crimes across the nation, including arson, fraud, and murder.

[276] Fuck.

[277] Okay.

[278] So now we'll go back and we'll talk a little bit about Shantay Kimes.

[279] She was born Sandra Louise Singh in Oklahoma City on July 24, 1934.

[280] She grows up in Nevada with her parents Mary Van Horn and Mahendra Prama Singh.

[281] And there's almost nothing known about her childhood factually.

[282] They believe that her birth certificate was forged.

[283] So her exact origins and even date of birth are, they're not sure about it.

[284] And the funny thing is Mary Tyler Moore playing Chanty Kimes.

[285] All she talks about is how much she hates getting older and aging.

[286] And it's pretty funny.

[287] So it would make sense that the first thing she does is erase her birth certificate.

[288] Get rid those numbers.

[289] Burn that fucking thing.

[290] It turns out she was born in 1888.

[291] Oh.

[292] So friends of the family would later attest, Shantae's parents were respectable people and that she was a troublemaker who caused chaos from an early age.

[293] But according to Shante, her parents neglected her.

[294] Her mother was a sex worker.

[295] and she was left to run amok and fend for herself all her life.

[296] Probably a little of both.

[297] I mean, it's true, probably.

[298] Listen to the whole story and then decide who you believe.

[299] Okay.

[300] So what we do know is that Chante graduated high school in Carson City, Nevada, in 1952, and immediately married her high school boyfriend.

[301] And that marriage lasts three months, no judgments.

[302] Great.

[303] And then in 1956, she marries again this time.

[304] It's another ex -boyfriend from high school.

[305] He's a Sacramento contractor named Edward Walker, and they have a son together named Kent.

[306] So aside from being a wife and mother, Shante is a petty and not so petty criminal.

[307] She indulges in shoplifting, grand theft, larceny, just to mention a few.

[308] And her son, Kent, who would later go on to write a book called The Son of a Grifter, describes how his mother would often force him to be her accomplice.

[309] So in 1961, Shanta gets caught shoplifting and she's convicted, and that ends her second marriage.

[310] That was already troubled, but that guy finally was like, what are you doing?

[311] Yeah.

[312] This is weird.

[313] You're not in junior high.

[314] Okay.

[315] So in 1970, Shanty meets a multi -millionaire Newport Beach developer named Kenneth Kimes.

[316] Great.

[317] Great.

[318] Get that second husband.

[319] Get that.

[320] No, it's number three, number three.

[321] They marry a year later in a 1975.

[322] They have a son named Kenneth Jr. So her son are named Kent and Kenny.

[323] Really creative.

[324] Not the coolest, probably, for Kent.

[325] Okay, so now Chanty's landed a rich husband.

[326] She's living the high life, but it does not stop her from perpetrating her scams, frauds, cons, and crime speech.

[327] Look, when you got a knack for something.

[328] She really had a passion for ripping people.

[329] off in any way she could.

[330] I'm a wife.

[331] I'm a mother and I'm a con artist and I'm all great.

[332] And I do it all well.

[333] I do it all.

[334] So the family has homes.

[335] They're super rich.

[336] They have homes in California, Hawaii, Las Vegas, to name a few places.

[337] She commits crimes in all those places.

[338] Good for her.

[339] Right?

[340] She steals good for her.

[341] I don't know.

[342] She steals a car from a dealership in Hawaii.

[343] She makes false insurance claims over lost and stolen items like expensive.

[344] of rugs and Rolex watches.

[345] You can do that?

[346] What's that?

[347] You can do that?

[348] I mean, she did.

[349] She got caught, though.

[350] So she had to hire a lawyer.

[351] Then she racks up $12 ,000 in legal fees, and she never pays up.

[352] So she scams the scam lawyer who got her off, which isn't the smartest.

[353] But that means you're committed as a fraud.

[354] Absolutely.

[355] She has a passion.

[356] And she continues doing this over the years.

[357] Sometimes her cons are entertaining, like, when she convinced people that her husband was an ambassador, which allowed her access to a White House reception during the Ford administration.

[358] She was the original White House crusher.

[359] That's right.

[360] Yeah.

[361] Good for her.

[362] She also would pass herself off every once in a while as Elizabeth Taylor.

[363] Oh.

[364] She basically had the same kind of like 60s, 70s Liz Taylor big bouffant hairdo.

[365] Good for her.

[366] And was pretty.

[367] Other than that, she doesn't look like Liz Taylor at all.

[368] So I'm sure she was wearing.

[369] big sunglasses or something.

[370] But her other crimes were more serious, like committing arson to collect insurance money on family properties.

[371] Shit.

[372] And all the while, she's rich.

[373] Yeah.

[374] What are you doing?

[375] It's hilarious.

[376] I mean, it's just like, you know, rich people.

[377] Yeah.

[378] So in 1986, she's convicted of the charge of slavery.

[379] What?

[380] Yes.

[381] In her home in Las Vegas, she's luring Mexican girls.

[382] to come and work for her.

[383] And then she keeps them locked in their rooms, doesn't pay them is physically and verbally abusive.

[384] And one of them finally gets out and reports her.

[385] And she's actually convicted of slavery and sentenced to five years in prison.

[386] Wow.

[387] Yeah.

[388] There's a scene where Mary Tyler Moore burns her the maid's hand with an iron because she's like sassing off.

[389] It's crazy.

[390] So yeah, obviously it was pretty extreme.

[391] So now we'll talk about Kenny Kimes.

[392] So this is, imagine that's your mom.

[393] No. Growing up, Kenny is isolated from other kids.

[394] Shante homeschools him, of course, because she says she doesn't want him mixing with children of a, like of a lesser breed than him.

[395] Was this a fucking canine day camp or something?

[396] No mutts.

[397] So he's raised by nannies and taught by tutors.

[398] And, of course, he wants to hang out with their kids and feel normal.

[399] But instead, his mother forbids it.

[400] She does let him hang out with some select children that she has chosen.

[401] And in the Mary Tyler Moore movie, she pays to have come over and hang out with him.

[402] That's how you do it.

[403] That's how you get a kid that's normal.

[404] That feels good about himself.

[405] Right.

[406] Yeah.

[407] So when Chante goes to prison for the slavery charges, Kenny tells people it's the happiest he's ever been.

[408] He gets to live at home with his dad.

[409] He's outside of Chanty's control, and he is loving life.

[410] Everyone around him notices that suddenly he seems happy and normal and like a regular kid.

[411] That's awful.

[412] Right?

[413] Then she gets out of jail two years early.

[414] Right.

[415] Yeah.

[416] She comes home.

[417] She finds her son happier and more well -adjusted and independent.

[418] and of course hates it.

[419] He has friends and a life outside of the home, and that's not cool with her.

[420] So Kenny and Shanty's relationship is very strained.

[421] And then in 1994, his father, Ken Kimes, passes away.

[422] So without his dad around, Kenny is now powerless to fight against Shanty's influence and control, and he falls back under her spell.

[423] It's a weird way to put it.

[424] Her controlling, manipulative, abusive, weird ways.

[425] It's a spell.

[426] When he tries to defend himself against her, they have these intense arguments, but in the end, he always caves and says, telling other people that his mom is, quote, always right.

[427] He even, he was going to UC Santa Barbara, and in 1996, he dropped out because she demanded that he leave school.

[428] So now here's, now we're going to go off into a separate sidebar story.

[429] In the 70s, Shanty knew a man named David Kazden, and for some reason, he allowed her and her husband, Kenneth, Sr., to use his name on the deed of their Las Vegas property, perhaps because she burned some stuff down.

[430] And they, you know, the insurance, there was some insurance issues.

[431] I don't know.

[432] That's editorializing on my part.

[433] But in 1997, Shanty tries to take out a loan on that house in David's name.

[434] and without his permission or knowledge.

[435] And when he finds out about the loan, David Kasten calls the bank, reports it as fraud, and stops Shantae from getting that loan.

[436] Then he realizes that she's a con artist, and he calls her up and threatens to expose her.

[437] So Shantay cooks up a plan and convinces her son Kenny to go do her dirty work.

[438] So on the evening of March 13, 1998, Kenny and another man slip into David Kasten's home and shoot him in the back of the head.

[439] They're about to rip him off.

[440] He, like, puts a stop to being ripped off, and he gets killed for it.

[441] Yes.

[442] What a bunch of bullshit.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Because he calls and basically says, I'm going to tell everybody that you're a con artist.

[445] Don't help someone that.

[446] Just do it.

[447] Just do it.

[448] Exactly.

[449] Don't give the warning.

[450] Yeah, that was, you know, let's not victim blame at the same time.

[451] It was a mistake.

[452] I just think that, like, you can't deal with crazies in a fucking normal way.

[453] Well, he probably thought, because, and this is the interesting thing about her, and this is me based on Mary Tyler Moore's performance.

[454] But she comes, everything is about almost like a light seduction with everyone.

[455] So everything, when her Ken Kheim Sr. would say, like, you've got to stop the shoplift.

[456] Oh, please don't call it that.

[457] Like, she doesn't want to use the words.

[458] She won't have the conversation about anything in reality.

[459] She's, like, delusional.

[460] She's delusional, and she won't let anybody come into that.

[461] ruin that delusion in any way.

[462] So this guy basically called up and is like, I know who you are and I'm exposing you.

[463] And she was like, that can't happen.

[464] His, David Kasten's body is found days later in a dumpster near Los Angeles.

[465] But the murder weapon is never found.

[466] Chantan Kenney become prime suspects, but they leave town before anyone can find them or question them.

[467] Oh, dear.

[468] So the mother's son criminal duo land in New York City with another deadly scheme in the works.

[469] So apparently Chanty and Kenny had heard about Irene Silverman and her $7 million dollar Manhattan home turned apartments complex.

[470] And they really wanted to meet Shaka Khan?

[471] Yeah, right.

[472] So their initial plan was Kenny's going to move into the apartment complex under a false identity and then they're going to rob Irene.

[473] But then, as Irene proves to be a sharp, assertive badass, who was suspicious of him from the get -go, the plan escalates.

[474] So, when the NYPD arrest Kenny and Chante for car theft on July 5th, 1998, in the stolen car, they find a handgun, the empty box for a stun gun, ammo, plastic handcuffs, syringes, and flu nitrazepam.

[475] Jesus.

[476] Which is a sedative 10 times more powerful than Valium.

[477] Friends.

[478] Guys.

[479] Get rid of the.

[480] the evidence.

[481] Right.

[482] Most importantly, they find several forms of Irene's ID, including her social security card and power of attorney forms with Irene's forged signature on them.

[483] Sweetheart.

[484] You've basically taken the whole case, the entire prosecution's case, put them in one bag and stuck in the backseat of your car.

[485] Stolen car.

[486] Okay.

[487] So police also find a notarized deed in Chante's gym bag.

[488] Because she's still going to the gym.

[489] She's still working out?

[490] That's her.

[491] She got keep that shit tight.

[492] What do they call it the gymnasium then?

[493] Because, no, this is the 90s.

[494] Never mind.

[495] Yeah, it wasn't.

[496] It wasn't that long ago.

[497] It was 24 -hour fitness.

[498] It's fine.

[499] Yeah, they call it.

[500] They call it Equinox.

[501] The deed has Irranged Ford's signature on it, and it is signing over the $7 million mansion to a company called Atlantis Group.

[502] What's it called?

[503] It's called, I'll tell you.

[504] Atlantis Group LTD, which is, of course, a shell corporation that Chante set up.

[505] Um, so with all masterminds must have so much energy.

[506] Oh, they really, they loved it.

[507] They love paperwork.

[508] Yeah.

[509] They love practicing signatures of other people.

[510] They have time and energy for schemes.

[511] They pay a lot of attention to things.

[512] They really, yeah, they care.

[513] I want to take a nap with a cat.

[514] They care about stealing.

[515] Oh, right.

[516] So with all this evidence against them, Shanty and Kenny are tried for the murder of Irene Silverman.

[517] In March 2000.

[518] Wait, they killed her.

[519] Oh, right.

[520] she went missing.

[521] Well, yeah.

[522] Where'd she go?

[523] Well, can you hold on?

[524] Are you miss up there?

[525] They don't have the body, but there's so much evidence that does not look.

[526] No, no, no. Nothing in that gym bag is anything you take to the gym.

[527] No. In March of 2000, their trial begins, and it is, as some would say, bizarre.

[528] Chantan Kenny demonstrate a very strange mother -son relationship in the courtroom.

[529] Kenny is constantly complimenting his mother's looks and personality gross um while you're testifying yeah I mean anytime stick to the facts please they also exchange glances that indicate they're more than friends you wait more than friends more than son and mother yeah but I'm being cutesy okay because because it is later discovered they're doing it they do it they sleep in the same bed in that apartment in Irene Silverman's apartment building.

[530] There's no hard evidence that's ever brought forward that, like, has the proof, but they're weird enough in the courtroom and don't realize they're weird enough to cover it up that everyone's like, what's going on?

[531] I got some hard evidence for you.

[532] It's your son's boner, and it's creepy.

[533] And no one likes it, except his mother.

[534] Chante has a constant disturbance in court.

[535] She constantly delivers rambling monologues, trying to convince everyone that the, authorities are trying to frame her it's got to be it everyone's looking around like is it still her turn to talk uh order she even passes a note to a reporter during the during the trial trying to influence his reporting in her favor do you like me check one for yes and the guy's like i mean i guess i like you you kind of look like liz taylor there's so much evidence against shanty and kenny that even though irene's body has never found they are found guilty of her murder.

[536] So, Shantae and Kenneth Kimes are both sentenced to life in jail plus 125 years.

[537] That's how clear it is.

[538] In the Mary Tyler Moore made for TV movie, the judge actually says, and this was my favorite, the judge calls Shante a sociopath of unremitting malevolence.

[539] Wow.

[540] And says she's the worst defendant to ever appear in his courtroom.

[541] So she's a true creep.

[542] They never find her body?

[543] No. Then in March of 2001, Kenny's extradited to Los Angeles, where he stands trial for the murder of David Kasden.

[544] Okay.

[545] And that trial begins three years later in June of 2004.

[546] At first, Kenny pleads not guilty, but then he decides to change his mind when he hears he's going to get the death penalty, and he testifies against his mother and pleads guilty.

[547] Uh -huh.

[548] During his trial, Kenny admits to a third murder that wasn't even on the court's radar, that of a Bahamian banker named Syed Bilal Ahmed, and he was in charge of Shantay's offshore bank accounts.

[549] And Ahmad vanished in 1996.

[550] After having dinner with Shanty and Kenny, Kenny tells the court that all of the crimes and murders that he committed were done at the demand of his mother.

[551] and she masterminded every single one.

[552] So Kenny Kimes is still alive.

[553] He is now 44 years old and he is still serving a life sentence without the chance of parole.

[554] Shantai Kimes passed away in prison of natural causes in May of 2014 at the age of 79.

[555] Her Facebook page, however, is still active.

[556] And it's apparently being maintained by her legal team.

[557] I found that out because there's a lower third on the YouTube movie and that says go to her Facebook page and it's all about how they're maintaining her innocence.

[558] Oh, come on, guys.

[559] Uh -huh.

[560] And that is the incredibly bizarre and salacious scam -ridden story of the mother's son murder team of Shantae and Kenny Kimes.

[561] Oh, my God.

[562] Yeah.

[563] Good one.

[564] Thank you.

[565] You did good.

[566] I'm not mad anymore.

[567] Okay.

[568] I was really holding a grudge that you stole that from under my...

[569] It's, to me, it is one of the weirdest because there's so much it's unproven but there's so so much rumors about the fact because she was very inappropriate with him sexually and there are just all kinds of rumors about the fact that they were lovers which is even more disturbing but that aside I decided that we could allude to it but more importantly it's alleged it's alleged more importantly they just killed people they just killed people so that they could it's that thing of they wanted to be rich but even when they were rich it wasn't enough yeah they wanted other people's stuff it's the craziest i can't believe he's only 44 i know because he started as a baby he was doing that in his 20s that's crazy it's you've got to wonder how much like if his mother had influence over that if he would have done any of it right weren't for her influence right not to not to defend him i don't think he would have i mean like not to defend him but at the same time she sounds like a manipulative yeah mom like we all know how those are.

[570] Well, I mean, I think she was a true psychopath.

[571] Yeah.

[572] And if he's you know, under her spell, there's no one else, like, he can't fight her.

[573] She literally kept him locked away.

[574] I mean, what choice did he have?

[575] Yeah.

[576] It's pretty creepy.

[577] But maybe he loved it.

[578] We don't know.

[579] We don't know, and we can't say.

[580] That's right.

[581] Rad.

[582] Great job.

[583] This bonus episode is supported by prodigal son, a new drama on Fox.

[584] Malcolm Bright has a gift.

[585] He knows how killers think and how their minds work.

[586] Why?

[587] His father was one of the worst.

[588] A notorious serial killer named The Surgeon.

[589] To understand why his father committed those crimes, Bright becomes the best criminal psychologist there is.

[590] Murder is the family business, and Bright uses his twisted genius to help the NYPD solve crimes and stop killers in this one -hour drama.

[591] All while dealing with a manipulative mother, annoyingly normal sister, a homicidal father still looking to bond with his prodigal son and his own constantly evolving neuroses.

[592] Out of all the stories we've done on this show, I feel like there's so many that have to do with family dynamics and how twisted and crazy they get.

[593] And this shows that perfectly.

[594] I mean, it's a little, you know, heightened.

[595] Yes.

[596] But it's so real.

[597] Well, and it's exciting because, as we talk about, it's a procedural, but it also has, like, the family drama aspect.

[598] So it's a kind of, it's a new kind of crime drama that you kind of haven't seen before.

[599] And if you like Michael Sheen, the way I do, he's such an incredible actor, you've never seen him like this before.

[600] That's right.

[601] It's amazing.

[602] So many great sweaters.

[603] Prodigal Son is a realistic, delightfully disturbing, edgy thriller with a wicked sense of humor from executive producers Greg Berlante, Chris Fedek, Sam Slaver, and Sarah Schechter, and starring Michael Sheen, Tom Payne, and Bellamy Young.

[604] Tune in Monday, starting September 23rd at 9 -8 Central, only on Fox.

[605] Goodbye.

[606] Well, I'm doing a story.

[607] There's a family theme in it, but it's not exactly the same.

[608] It's not a traditional family It's not It's creepy though Creepy family times We love it And this is one that I Started to work on Was like great And then realized that I think We did it when we were on the dollop Okay Is that right?

[609] And I think you also did it When we were live somewhere What is it?

[610] Dolly ostrich No I did it on a television show Not to be named On this episode But we haven't done it on our show Okay great this is your version.

[611] Let's, it's a total re -approach.

[612] Okay, great.

[613] Yeah.

[614] Good.

[615] And this is perfect.

[616] It's this, it's almost like you were trying to find a family situation that's even creepier than the one I just described.

[617] Creepier.

[618] And I was like, oh, if you're going to do the one that I wanted to do, then I'm going to want to do one that you've already done.

[619] How about that?

[620] You really, you've really showed me. I'm really vindictive.

[621] Yeah.

[622] That's just part of my personality.

[623] I love it.

[624] Okay.

[625] And so I got a lot of information about this one from a podcast called, let's go to court with an exclamation more.

[626] Are you serious that I'm going to listen to from now on?

[627] How great is that?

[628] It's just court cases.

[629] Hell yes.

[630] They just cover famous court cases.

[631] Let's go to court.

[632] Let's go to court!

[633] Exclamation work.

[634] And then one of the hosts got a lot of her info about this episode from a bunch of old newspaper clippings.

[635] So she did the research.

[636] Nice.

[637] I thought you're going to say one of the hosts got her research from the dollop.

[638] And then there's an LA Times article.

[639] There's a website called the VintageNews .com, our best friend, Murderpedia.

[640] and, of course, all that's interesting.

[641] There's a bunch of articles you can find in, like, YouTube videos and shit.

[642] Yeah, this story is epic.

[643] Here we go.

[644] This fucking dolly.

[645] Okay.

[646] And then a disclaimer, and this is from Lily, my research gal.

[647] A lot of newspaper clippings had conflicting details about ages and some info.

[648] So a lot of it's just kind of guesswork.

[649] Right.

[650] You know, I'm not making shit up here.

[651] I get you.

[652] I've actually, I had to read, unlike usual with my research, when I did this story before the unnamed project that I talked about it on, I had to read those old articles.

[653] And it's so crazy.

[654] I bet you it was almost like the reporters of the day were like, we don't understand what's happening.

[655] Like everyone just kind of like.

[656] Sex.

[657] People have sex all the time?

[658] Sex and, okay, go ahead.

[659] Let me tell you about it.

[660] Let's hear it.

[661] All right.

[662] So this woman named Walburga, Korshul, for real.

[663] She's born in the 1880s in Germany.

[664] When she's young, she immigrates to Wisconsin, grows up poor on a farm.

[665] But when she's 14, she starts working in a factory where she meets 17 -year -old Fred Osterich.

[666] Oster Reich.

[667] Like, it's very German.

[668] His father owns a shoe store, so he comes from a pretty well -off family.

[669] Three years later, they get married.

[670] They move to Milwaukee.

[671] They open a shoe store along with a bunch of other stores.

[672] And later, they open an apron factory, and they become wealthy textile manufacturers.

[673] So, Dottie, live in the area.

[674] immigrants dream in America.

[675] Just called her Dottie.

[676] Oh.

[677] That's your cat's name.

[678] That's my cat's name.

[679] She's also rich.

[680] So her name, she goes by Dolly.

[681] So Frednan and Dolly, they don't have a happy marriage, unfortunately.

[682] He works long hours, spends more time at the bar, drinking with his friends, than he does at home.

[683] He's basically always drunk or always busy.

[684] So she's like, boo.

[685] Yeah.

[686] She eventually gets fed up with his behavior.

[687] So one autumn day in 1913, she tells her.

[688] husband, Fred, who's at the textile manufacturer, yo, my sewing machine is broken.

[689] And so it's kind of guessed as to whether she did this on purpose or this was an accident, but he sends a 17 -year -old Otto Sawn Hoover.

[690] He is a repairman at the factory, the textile factory, and he is hot as fuck.

[691] He's like Lou Diamond Phillips hot.

[692] He's not traditional.

[693] I'm making this up.

[694] Featured in the new Fox drama, Prodigal Son.

[695] Right.

[696] Now, there's no way she didn't go down to that factory to be like, you forgot your lunch, Fred.

[697] And then she's like, what, what?

[698] Who's this now?

[699] 17.

[700] And like, it's kind of creepy to that her husband, Fred, was 17 when he met her as well.

[701] She likes him young.

[702] She has a thing for 17 -year -olds.

[703] But it sounds like she did know who he was because when Fred sends Otto to come fix a dolly sewing machine, she shows up at the door in a silk robe, stockings, heavy perfume, and nothing else, which is sounds disgusting.

[704] Like, to me, it's like, okay, the silk robe I get, but stockings, I'm thinking like mucklucks, but I bet it was like sexy garter belt.

[705] Sexy old -fashioned stockings.

[706] And then heavy perfume.

[707] Yeah.

[708] I bet there's like, it's called arsenic and robes.

[709] It's just disgusting.

[710] Yeah, a perfume back in the day, it was like no one cared about anybody else.

[711] It was like, I'm going to smell like this, no matter how.

[712] it impacts you.

[713] Because did they even have regular showers back then?

[714] It's like, cover it up.

[715] That's right.

[716] Or are you thinking of the 1500s?

[717] Great.

[718] Okay, so 17 -year -old Otto opens the door and he's like, let's fucking do this.

[719] Hell yes, a 17 -year -old that's just like a naked lady.

[720] Naked lady with mucklucks.

[721] I love it.

[722] So Dolly and Otto start hooking up and they meet in hotels or at her house during the day when Fred's gone.

[723] But soon, Dolly's nosy neighbors start to notice that this fucking hot young piece is coming in and out of her house.

[724] Yeah.

[725] Don't.

[726] And so they're like, what the fuck?

[727] Because they're nosy.

[728] That's how they were back then.

[729] Sure.

[730] They didn't have a lot of, they didn't have the internet.

[731] No. They didn't have cell phones.

[732] No. They had to peek out their curtains at their neighbors.

[733] That's right.

[734] Mind your business.

[735] So, Dolly then tells.

[736] This was before, mind your business.

[737] That's right.

[738] Dolly tells everyone that Hot Otto is her, quote, vagabond half brother.

[739] Hot.

[740] So that's how she gets away with him.

[741] him coming over all the time is saying that they're related, which makes it even more creepy.

[742] Yes.

[743] Well, maybe that's what she was into.

[744] Right.

[745] Well, we don't know.

[746] We don't know.

[747] Mike Lux, I'm.

[748] Okay.

[749] But Dolly still wants to continue her affair with Otto, but she wants her nosy neighbors to mind their own fucking business.

[750] Sure.

[751] So she makes Otto quit his job.

[752] And this is so that he won't be seen coming in and out of the house anymore.

[753] So she says, how about you quit your job at the factory and just move into my attic and live They're in secret.

[754] Oh, perfect solution.

[755] So now you don't have to come and go because you're just staying in the attic.

[756] I'm going to keep you like a bird.

[757] Exactly.

[758] Like a human man bird up in the attic.

[759] And again, he's probably 17 still.

[760] He's like, sounds great.

[761] Hot.

[762] Let's do it.

[763] Even better.

[764] Even better.

[765] He, Dolly tells him he can't leave or else people will know he's there.

[766] Her brother.

[767] Her brother, mind you.

[768] Yes.

[769] So she sets up a desk and a cot for him in the small space.

[770] The Los Angeles Times says, quote, At night, he read mysteries by Candlelight and wrote stories of adventure and lust.

[771] He wanted to write like mystery stories himself.

[772] By day, he made love to Dolly and helped her keep house and made bathtub gin.

[773] Sounds pretty fucking great.

[774] This is the life.

[775] I want to read and write all day and make gin and fuck.

[776] Yes.

[777] I'm sorry.

[778] What's the problem here?

[779] I'm a young man in the beginning prime of his life.

[780] And I have middle age in that time Yeah, that's right He was almost dead But he had a sure thing Yeah He had a place to live rent free Free booze She probably fed him I would imagine He got some food there Yeah And then he got to go with his books He didn't have to take it In the movies or do anything No That's a pain It's called That sounds like being married Yeah Pretty much You can keep Vince in the attic Yeah So then Brad would come home In the evenings And Otto would go to his room And spend time reading the novels that Dolly checked out for him at the library and writing his Pulp Fiction that he wanted to write.

[781] And Dolly would take some of the stories that he wrote and then they had them published under the pen name Walter Klein.

[782] So it was working out for him.

[783] Like, you know how hard it is to sit down and write?

[784] We wrote an entire fucking book.

[785] It's awful.

[786] If you'd put me in an act, I wouldn't have fucking finish it.

[787] I would have just been like, I'm going to do push -ups for the rest of my life.

[788] I'm going to talk to the spiders.

[789] This goes on for five years.

[790] Man, Otto, I wonder what his life was like before, that this was the better alternative.

[791] It must have been pretty bleak.

[792] It must have been.

[793] He's like, I love it up here.

[794] This is the best I've ever been treated.

[795] It's so warm.

[796] It's like, you know, sometimes you go into a small room and it's really warm and you just get tired.

[797] Yeah.

[798] Maybe it was just like slightly drugged by being in the attic.

[799] That's a good point.

[800] Or totally drugged.

[801] Or on bathtub gin, which is not safe for consumption.

[802] Not good for you at all.

[803] So it goes on for five years, and Fred does notice some things, though, and it's almost like she was gaslighting him a little bit.

[804] So Fred would ask Dolly about the noises that he heard and couldn't explain, and she was like, mm -hmm.

[805] He also tells her about seeing shadows moving in the upstairs windows, like when he's outside, and about his half -finished cigars that keep going missing.

[806] Hey.

[807] Where's my butt?

[808] Just don't fucking smoke your mistresses.

[809] Don't smoke the smelliest thing.

[810] that can be traced.

[811] And don't steal shit.

[812] Yeah.

[813] They're also constantly low on food, but Dolly always convinces Fred that it's nothing and that he should go see a doctor because he's crazy.

[814] Oh.

[815] Like she totally gas likes that.

[816] That's rough.

[817] Yeah.

[818] At one point he does see a doctor, but of course they're like, there's nothing fucking wrong with you.

[819] So he thinks that the house is haunted or that he's going crazy.

[820] And so he decides that they need to get out of the house and move somewhere else.

[821] Yeah.

[822] That's a perfect solution.

[823] That's it.

[824] Move to L .A. Yeah.

[825] That's what they do.

[826] That's the perfect thing for crazy people.

[827] That's what everyone else does.

[828] Because you'll look normal if you're in L .A. You're crazy.

[829] No one can tell.

[830] That's what I did.

[831] Everyone's just concentrating on their own fucking insane shit.

[832] That's right.

[833] You go to a town where everyone is self -obsessed and no one will care if you're crazy.

[834] That's right.

[835] Welcome to Los Angeles.

[836] The thing when you think everyone is staring at you in the room in Los Angeles, nobody cares about you.

[837] Nobody stares at you in the room.

[838] No. Unless you're a casting director.

[839] That's right.

[840] So Dolly isn't stoked, but she agrees to move to L .A. On the one condition, she has one condition.

[841] And that is their new house has an addict.

[842] Okay.

[843] She is smart.

[844] She is just subtle and smart.

[845] Yeah.

[846] But you know, L .A., like, we don't fucking have those here.

[847] Yeah.

[848] There's a lot of bungalows.

[849] Yeah.

[850] So my new house has a creepy basement.

[851] And then in the creepy basement, there's a pull -down crawl space that I'm calling the fucking attic.

[852] So that you can get your man up in your 17 -year -old.

[853] You fit.

[854] Georgia's shopping for 17 -year -old.

[855] No. I'll put Vince up there.

[856] Vince, stop it.

[857] Vince, you go in the attic.

[858] So she could move to my house if she wants to.

[859] But they do find a house with an addict in Lafayette Park Place, which is near MacArthur Park.

[860] Oh, okay.

[861] So like near Rampart.

[862] Right.

[863] She gives Otto the money.

[864] She's gotten from selling his stories, which I guess she was fucking keeping.

[865] Sends him to L .A. by train so she can keep boning.

[866] Oh.

[867] And then he works as a janitor and lives in an apartment while he waits for her.

[868] So he gets a taste of freedom and what it's like to live alone and still when they move.

[869] And he's like, no, thank you.

[870] Yeah, he's still like, I can't wait to get into that crawl space.

[871] Yeah.

[872] Which is the euphemism for her vagina.

[873] I didn't even think of that.

[874] Some call it a crawl space.

[875] Get the cobwebs out of the way.

[876] Oh, no. What's this old box doing here?

[877] Oh, dear Christmas.

[878] Fred and Dolly moved to L .A. and they start a new factory, so they're still rich as fuck.

[879] That's the other thing about this is this is a really fucking wealthy couple.

[880] She's keeping a dude to bone.

[881] Yeah.

[882] as a side piece in the upstairs I kind of find it empowering it is not it is not it is not I don't think it is it's not good although it doesn't it he had several chances yes to get away it wasn't against his will so at least it wasn't against his well it seems like a little bit of a of like a BDSM kind of a thing okay in my like that to me it says that like he kind of likes being told what to do and controlled sure sweating a lot let's hope he likes to sweat he likes to sweat he likes to likes to write in a suffocating heat.

[883] Yeah.

[884] It's all working out.

[885] It works for everyone.

[886] And she wants that curl space tended to.

[887] Don't.

[888] Oh.

[889] Okay.

[890] So Otto continues to live in the attic for another four or five years.

[891] So this is like 10 fucking years at this point.

[892] Such a long period of time.

[893] As the brother.

[894] And Fred still hears strange noises and food and cigarettes continue to go missing.

[895] He starts drinking more and more because he's like, I am.

[896] going crazy.

[897] Yeah, I'm crazy.

[898] I might as well just keep going.

[899] It's pretty sad.

[900] And so Dolly and Fred start arguing more and more as well.

[901] So that brings us to the evening of August 22nd, 1922.

[902] Dolly and Fred go to a party.

[903] They get in an argument and leave.

[904] Awkward.

[905] You know that couple that gets into a fight at a fucking party?

[906] Just in front of everybody.

[907] I'm sure they had a couple bathtub gins before they left.

[908] So, you know, they came in with a nice heat on, as my dad likes to say.

[909] Shut up, Fred.

[910] He's always like.

[911] like this.

[912] She turned to the rest of the party.

[913] You're embarrassing yourself.

[914] Stop.

[915] Everyone else is just trying to do the Charleston.

[916] They're just like, could you please shut up?

[917] Fight, fight, do it, do it.

[918] Cared.

[919] You don't know.

[920] E. Fred, it's just cigars.

[921] You don't know my secrets.

[922] I have addicts secrets.

[923] Everyone's like, she is out of her mind.

[924] She keeps talking about her crawl space.

[925] Why does, I don't want to speak about your crawl space, Dolly.

[926] So they go home and the fight continues.

[927] It gets loud.

[928] And Otto upstairs, who's like in love with Dolly, starts to get freak the fuck out because he hears it getting violent, the fight.

[929] Which this is all speculation in hearsay because what happens next is that Otto crawls out of his crawl space.

[930] Yeah.

[931] And grabs, but not literally, not figuratively.

[932] Right, right.

[933] He grabs two guns that belong to Fred, goes back up and then comes out of this cubbyhole in the ceiling where the couple's fighting.

[934] And suddenly Fred sees this fucking pale.

[935] sweaty.

[936] So creepy.

[937] Dude with two guns that he recognizes from 10 years ago, remember?

[938] Yeah.

[939] Because he knows him.

[940] Yeah, he was his employee.

[941] I'm sorry, he recognized in him.

[942] He's like, what in the actual fuck?

[943] They're in Los Angeles now.

[944] It's like, I really am crazy.

[945] I am out of my mind.

[946] I'm a drunk and I'm crazy.

[947] Um, he recognizes him.

[948] Fred goes nuts.

[949] They start fighting and then the gun goes off and eventually, um, auto overpowers Fred.

[950] This fucking, this cave dweller overpowers Fred which sucks and shoots him three times in the chest with one of the guns so Fred the husband dies immediately so what they're saying about them fighting and him being violent is just based on what Dolly and Otto say so we don't know if it's true or not so he could have actually been ambushed entirely and like you know Otto dropped from the ceiling like a creepy white spider and then Fred was like whoa or Dolly could have been the violent one like we don't really know yeah so then when Fred dies, Dolly apparently thinks quickly and decides to make it look like a robbery so she has Otto lock her in the bedroom closet and then Otto takes Fred's diamond watch and both guns and goes back upstairs into his fucking attic and then Dolly starts screaming and yelling, neighbors call the cops, the cops come.

[951] He's still hiding.

[952] He doesn't even hightail it and go away at a park or something.

[953] No, no, no. He loves that attic.

[954] That's his home away from the crawl space.

[955] Okay.

[956] The cops come.

[957] When the police arrived, Dolly tells them how the robbers shot Fred.

[958] They stole belongings, locked her in the closet.

[959] She tells them all that.

[960] And the police are like, and the actual fuck, this doesn't look right because the robbers took only the watch.

[961] And there's a fat lot of cash in Fred's jacket pocket.

[962] The neighbors never saw anyone coming or going.

[963] And Dolly has a motive because with Fred's death, she becomes a sole owner of their large fortune.

[964] Wow.

[965] But without any concrete evidence, they can't charge her with anything, so she goes free.

[966] And they never check the attic.

[967] Yeah.

[968] Well, what I love to, sorry.

[969] It's weird to have this conversation knowing it, because we never do it this way.

[970] Well, remember when I did a drunk history?

[971] And then I didn't realize what I had even done it until you were halfway through the story that I had done on drunk history.

[972] Yeah.

[973] Circleville letters.

[974] And I was like, why did this sound familiar?

[975] I know this for some reason.

[976] But what I like is that because it's like the one thing that was keeping it, keeping her story straight was that she was locked in the closet.

[977] And the cops were like, just there's no way it could.

[978] be any different like we have to believe her because of this one weird detail because if if that's not true what do you make up like the truth is stranger than fiction i have one word that they didn't think of accomplice like why didn't you know where's the accomplice how is it you know it's yeah it's just the weirdest yeah and why but why not believe her that this is what happened yeah yeah okay so with her husband out of the picture dolly gets all the money she buys a new house in the Larchmont area I thought you'd like that detail because you can never remember the word Larchmont right?

[979] I can't Every time I tell people to go there I'm just like Hmm What is it?

[980] That area It's very charming everyone Good bagel shop There's a great Salt and Straw ice cream It's great Oh yeah Did I ever tell you About the time I got a ticket I got a ticket Because the meter expired And then I thought I had gotten two tickets But the second ticket was a coupon from salt and straw To get a free ice cream Because I got a ticket That's what they do for people if you get a ticket Shut your mouth Isn't that genius?

[981] That is genius marketing I know you're having a bad day now But here's a little good day Ice cream will feed right into your eating disorder I used to have a I used to go to a therapist on that block on Larchmont And I'd go in and talk about my shopping addiction And the next door there was like Everything under $20 clothing store So I'd be like I can't help myself Turned out fine That therapist should have walked you to your car Should have Jennifer Jennifer.

[982] Um, bah, large one.

[983] And then even, uh, even though she and Otto are now theoretically free to live in the open and have like a fucking real relationship after 10 years, he's like, oh, kind of like living in the attic.

[984] What?

[985] Yes.

[986] I don't remember this one.

[987] He continues to live in the fucking attic.

[988] So it was his, it was his jam all along.

[989] It was his dream.

[990] Maybe he, maybe she showed up at the door with like the silks and all the sexy shit and he showed up with a bag to go live in the attic like it was both of their plan yeah um around the same time though dolly starts hooking up with her estate lawyer so remember she was like I inherited everything and she's like and now I want to bone my lawyer sure she's like he represents her riches yeah he's like yay thank you and maybe he was hot his name is Herman Shapiro yeah he sounds hot you know estate lawyers they have a reputation hey brown suits come on pencil behind your ear whatever so the date so she dates the estate lawyer for a short time and as a gift she gives him this is how smart she is Fred's diamond watch that was stolen in the fucking robbery and she and he asked like well I thought this was stolen and she's like oh I found it between two couch cushions good cover I was wrong oops but he didn't think it was important enough to notify the police probably not you know yeah he was like it's a really nice nice watch.

[991] He's like, forget it.

[992] Loving that watch.

[993] That's right.

[994] So then, but then like Dolly's husband Fred, Shapiro spends long hours away due to his profession.

[995] So Dolly takes on another lover at the same time.

[996] She can't get enough.

[997] She can't.

[998] Roy Klam.

[999] And she asks Roy to dispose of one of her husband's gun, her now dead husband's gun saying she was afraid that the police would think it was the gun she used to murder, that was used to murder her husband.

[1000] So she's like, just get rid of it so that, like, they don't get a confused.

[1001] I just don't want the bother.

[1002] Right.

[1003] I don't want them to be confused.

[1004] So he was like, great.

[1005] You've got a great crawl space.

[1006] I'll absolutely do that for you.

[1007] He throws it.

[1008] Ready for this?

[1009] Into the La Brea Tarpitz.

[1010] The best.

[1011] The best.

[1012] The best.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] And then she sweet talks her neighbor into bearing the other, the second gun in her in his backyard.

[1015] Here's the thing we have to say about Dolly.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] She must have been charming as hell.

[1018] That's right.

[1019] Because she gets everyone to do.

[1020] the weirdest shit for her.

[1021] Every man that comes across her is like what do you want an errand?

[1022] Do you want me to adjust my entire life in the weirdest way?

[1023] What do you want for me?

[1024] I'll do it.

[1025] What can I do?

[1026] You want me to stop time and stop my fucking brain?

[1027] I don't know.

[1028] Why didn't Dolly write a dating book?

[1029] Oh.

[1030] I had to trick men and get them up in your crawl space.

[1031] What?

[1032] Okay.

[1033] Okay, so a year later though, this is the thing you got to worry about.

[1034] Dolly breaks things off with this third lover.

[1035] Right.

[1036] And he's fucking piss.

[1037] So he goes to the cops.

[1038] So they go to the tar pits and somehow find the gun.

[1039] I can't imagine how.

[1040] Okay.

[1041] Quick sidebar, sorry.

[1042] And it's a pit.

[1043] But there's an amazing episode of criminal about LAPD officers that scuba dive into the LaBrea tarpits.

[1044] So find a thing.

[1045] Yes.

[1046] I remember that.

[1047] It is amazing.

[1048] I remember that.

[1049] Okay.

[1050] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[1051] And this is criminal.

[1052] I'm Phoebe Waller Judge.

[1053] This is criminal.

[1054] Okay.

[1055] So they find.

[1056] the gun and they arrest Dolly for her husband's murder.

[1057] And then when the story hits the presses, Dolly's neighbor is like, oh, shit, and digs up the gun and brings it in as well.

[1058] But neither weapon can be tied to Dolly because of corrosion.

[1059] So she fucking wins again.

[1060] She does it again.

[1061] Dude, girl, get it.

[1062] She's blessed.

[1063] Hashtag.

[1064] Truly blessed.

[1065] So while she's awaiting trial, her lawyer lover, Herman, visits her.

[1066] And she's like, can you do me a big, I know I've asked you for some weird shit.

[1067] Here's another one.

[1068] Are you ready?

[1069] can you go buy groceries there's a man living in my attic tap on the ceiling of the bedroom closet let him know so that he can come out and she assures him that the man is just her vagabond half brother everything's on the level there's nothing to see here officer keep moving so he does it yeah he goes and gets the groceries but instead of tapping on the bedroom closet ceiling he whistles and moments later it says a pale and sweaty man emerges from the cubby hole in the ceiling oh my gosh Can you imagine?

[1070] And the guy begins to scream and never stops.

[1071] Oh, hoi, hoi.

[1072] Otto had been living in the attic for about 10 years and hadn't had a real conversation with anyone besides Dolly for a long time.

[1073] So when he sees this Herman fella, he's like, what's up?

[1074] Best friend?

[1075] His eyes are super wide.

[1076] He dropped down head first, like Spider -Man.

[1077] He said head -first, totally.

[1078] But Herman thinks it's Dolly's brother.

[1079] Sure.

[1080] But Otto then, because he hasn't talked to anyone so long, starts chip, chip chatting.

[1081] And he fucking brags about all the sex he's having with Dolly.

[1082] Oh, no. He's like, shut your mouth, dude.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] So fucking Herman, the boyfriend gets pissed off about it.

[1085] Sure he does.

[1086] Not creeped out.

[1087] Pissed off.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] He orders Otto to leave the house and never come back.

[1090] So Otto later days to Canada.

[1091] So finally Otto leaves.

[1092] What a horrifying moment for Otto to have to cross the threshold of the front door of that home and then be in the world.

[1093] All I did was talk about sex a lot.

[1094] I thought it was allowed.

[1095] And also just, what do you do?

[1096] You've been in a very confined space for years and years and years.

[1097] Yeah.

[1098] Go to Canada.

[1099] That's the solution.

[1100] They have great candy and people are very nice.

[1101] Very nice.

[1102] Health care for all.

[1103] Can you imagine?

[1104] We'll get there.

[1105] Okay.

[1106] As for Dolly, the police still can't explain how she could have shot Fred from inside the closet.

[1107] So they let her go, even though they have the guns.

[1108] And Herman ends up moving in with her lawyer.

[1109] Man, that guy will put up with anything.

[1110] Man, that must have been some good.

[1111] I'm not going to keep saying it.

[1112] Seven years later, in 1930, Herman and Dolly have a nasty breakup.

[1113] Sure.

[1114] And because Dolly starts hooking up with yet another guy, that's why they break up.

[1115] Herman's pissed about the affair, but thinks that if he doesn't leave voluntarily, that she's going to fucking kill him.

[1116] So he moves to St. Louis, Missouri, but he's so angry about how Dolly treated him.

[1117] He writes a 15 -page affidavit dealing with how Fred really died and mails it to the L .A. district attorney.

[1118] Nice.

[1119] Herman's letter is all the police needed to finally arrest Otto, who had moved back to L .A. at this point, is now 40 years old and living under his pen name, Walter Klein.

[1120] Oh.

[1121] Still writing.

[1122] Good for him.

[1123] Nice.

[1124] It's hard.

[1125] And they also arrest Dolly.

[1126] So Otto, it tells them everything.

[1127] he confesses and he colors the whole addict situation in a favorable light.

[1128] He tells the story of hearing Dolly and Fred fighting, how he came down and killed Fred.

[1129] And basically he's like, I'm a hero.

[1130] Sure.

[1131] I'm a weird, weird hero.

[1132] I'm the palest hero you've ever seen.

[1133] Almost translucent.

[1134] Well, they give him a name in the newspapers.

[1135] They call him the Batman or Bat lover.

[1136] And it goes 1930s viral.

[1137] Like everyone has just scandalized that this fucking, you know, in their minds, Hussie is just taking lover after lover and keeping one up there and holding one down there and that one's dead and this one's your lawyer.

[1138] It was unheard of at the time to keep a lover in the attic like a bat lover.

[1139] Right.

[1140] You keep them in a hotel room like a normal person.

[1141] So Otto goes on trial in 1930, please not guilty by reason of insanity, but the prosecutors are pushing for the death penalty.

[1142] The trial becomes known as the Batman case and his defense argues that Otto had been a love slave.

[1143] Yeah.

[1144] And he had the mind of an eight -year -old boy.

[1145] Oh.

[1146] Right.

[1147] So this will not, this story will not let you have fun.

[1148] No. Every time you're like, oh my God, this is amazing.

[1149] And then you're just like, oh, that's a bummer.

[1150] Gross.

[1151] So they visit the house where he was staying and they visit the attic and they are all the jury members by the time they come out on the other side, they're dripping sweat.

[1152] And I think by the time they come out, it's like being reborn and being like, like oh fuck and that's how hot yoga was born right here in los angeles and everyone hates themselves who does it no yes have you tried it it's the worst i hate the heat it's the worst i got yelled at in it a jury of six women and six men go into deliberation for seven hours and they find auto guilty of manslaughter which carries a one to ten year sentence but then otto's genius fucking lawyer or awakeman is like okay um yeah but the statute of limitations that means has run out.

[1153] So he can go now, right?

[1154] Oh.

[1155] Because it's been years and years since Fred was killed.

[1156] And so, um, the judge is like, yeah, I guess so.

[1157] Oh, I guess you're right.

[1158] And he sets the verdict aside and Otto goes free.

[1159] Wow.

[1160] And then all it says is he went on to marry and have kids.

[1161] Auto did?

[1162] Yeah.

[1163] Ew.

[1164] They lived in the tiniest house.

[1165] Just a tiny house.

[1166] Oh, and tiny kids.

[1167] A little triangular house.

[1168] Oh.

[1169] Real hot.

[1170] Heater on day and night.

[1171] That's right.

[1172] typing away.

[1173] A few months later in August of 1930, Dolly's trial begins.

[1174] The jury goes into deliberation for three days and they end up deadlocked.

[1175] And no one is willing to change their minds.

[1176] The judge dismisses the jury and eventually the DA asks the judge to drop the indictment against Dolly since they had no new evidence.

[1177] So she goes free as well.

[1178] Wow.

[1179] Yeah.

[1180] So Fred never got his justice.

[1181] No, he didn't.

[1182] Over the years, Dolly invests her money wisely and her fortune grows.

[1183] She and that other fucking.

[1184] that other affair she was having because she was bored with Herman, they date for 30 years before getting married on April 5th, 1961.

[1185] Wow.

[1186] And she's 69 and he's 65.

[1187] And she ends up dying.

[1188] And some say that she's in her 80s, though.

[1189] It's like hard to tell exactly what age she is.

[1190] But they're together for 30 years.

[1191] Dolly ends up dying 16 days after they get married.

[1192] Oh, no. In 1961.

[1193] She could not settle down.

[1194] She was like, I'm.

[1195] I'm settled, and now I'm going to die.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] And that is the story of Dolly Ostrich.

[1198] Wow.

[1199] Yeah.

[1200] It's an amazing story.

[1201] It's a good one.

[1202] I feel like we could tell it, like, once a year, and it would never get old.

[1203] Because it's just the twists and turns are unbelievable.

[1204] What about Vagabond Brother?

[1205] Is that your band name?

[1206] For sure.

[1207] Oh, I'm going to start introducing any date I have as my Vagabon Brother.

[1208] It's the perfect cover.

[1209] Oh, that's sweaty, pale guy?

[1210] Oh, that's just my Vagabond Brother from our...

[1211] of town from upstate.

[1212] That's right.

[1213] Don't worry about him coming in and out of my house because he doesn't live in the attic.

[1214] That was amazing.

[1215] Great job.

[1216] Thank you.

[1217] Your version was great.

[1218] Thank you.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] That's right.

[1221] Sorry, Dave Anthony.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] Didn't mean to trump you yet again.

[1224] No, we're best friends.

[1225] Here's an interview we did with Bellamy Young who plays the wife of the serial killer.

[1226] The surgeon.

[1227] The Surgeon.

[1228] In prodigal son.

[1229] She is so lovely and delightful.

[1230] She's like creepy and cool in the show.

[1231] And so we didn't know what to expect when we met her and interviewed her.

[1232] Right.

[1233] She was so funny and so light and lovely.

[1234] Yeah, it turns out she's just a good actress.

[1235] Yeah.

[1236] Is that what that means?

[1237] Not the character that she plays on the TV show.

[1238] Yeah.

[1239] No, we had a great time.

[1240] It was very exciting to talk to her.

[1241] It's very fun to interview people.

[1242] Yeah.

[1243] She was so easy to talk to.

[1244] So listen now.

[1245] Here is our interview.

[1246] One of the stars of Prodical Son, Bellamy Young.

[1247] Cool.

[1248] Thanks for being on the podcast.

[1249] Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

[1250] We love the show.

[1251] I was just...

[1252] Did you get to see the pilot?

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] Yeah, yeah.

[1255] Okay, that makes me very, very happy.

[1256] We'll talk about it when we talk about.

[1257] No, it was great.

[1258] You're so elegant.

[1259] Yes.

[1260] I just love it.

[1261] Thank you.

[1262] My goodness.

[1263] It's a delight.

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] Do you always play a rich lady?

[1266] Because you're very good at it.

[1267] Oh, thank you.

[1268] Well, you know.

[1269] No, you know, those who can't act as in.

[1270] No, I don't.

[1271] But I have to say, I mean, you know, Melly was, you know, of a certain means.

[1272] And Lord knows Jessica's old, old money, you know, her family before the Whitley's sort of owned most of Manhattan.

[1273] So it's really fun.

[1274] There's such a dry debauch sort of thing that happens when you're just like swimming filthily and money.

[1275] Yes.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] It's really, really tasty to roll around it.

[1278] I love it.

[1279] I feel like we could just take you and put you right into succession.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] That's great.

[1282] Okay, you guys, I'm obsessed.

[1283] Oh, my gosh.

[1284] It's the best.

[1285] We'll do a whole other hour on that because, oh, heaven.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] Love that show.

[1288] There is, that's what I like to.

[1289] There is, as much as there is the stuff I, the murdery stuff that I like and go to for shows like this, there's also an aspirational aspect.

[1290] Like, when you guys are having dinner where I'm like, can you imagine sitting there and at a table that big and being that far away from people as you eat dinner?

[1291] or I love it.

[1292] And how do you even eat soup in that sentence?

[1293] So like, I couldn't do it.

[1294] You were the wrong way?

[1295] The loneliest clinks in the world.

[1296] So do you like true crime?

[1297] Is that something you've ever paid attention to?

[1298] You know, I've had death around me my whole life.

[1299] My mother has buried four husbands and, you know, for some of grandparents.

[1300] I know.

[1301] There's just a lot.

[1302] So I was tuned in very early to the fact that I would like to.

[1303] stay here.

[1304] And so I began sort of amassing, I'm a rules -oriented human, and I started amassing rules.

[1305] Like, you know, to begin with, it was like, you know, I watched Jaws.

[1306] I'm like, okay, don't go in the ocean.

[1307] I watch, you know, Friday, 13th, don't go to summer camp.

[1308] Carrie, don't go to prom, like, whatever.

[1309] But then it got to be, you know, like, Dommer, like, don't go to clubs.

[1310] Bundy made me think about college.

[1311] You guys made me sleep with my windows closed.

[1312] You know, I just try and codify things that keep me on the right.

[1313] right side of well life yeah um so yeah i still get super super nervous i mean i was always a child that would watch the scary movies on saturday afternoon from behind the recliner like that's definitely like i want to see it and i want to be like at a safe distance yeah you guys though i love what you do because you you channel it somewhere that some that we can do something with you know you there's always a positive place to go with the energy of of fear or of um revenge or whatever you but you really know how to get positive um result from that so thank you we get asked all the time like you know why do women love true crime and of course we're only two of the women in the world so we can only answer but it's i think you're you make a great point where it's like you're just trying to prepare yourself for things that can actually happen in the world and maybe they're embellished on tv and movies like jaws yeah yeah yeah it is coming from somewhere real yeah yeah no we my sweet Hart is a percussionist, he travels the world all the time, and he's always having these incredible adventures, and he's a true person of light, but he'll do the thing where after the gig, he'll, like, meet somebody in the audience and go play snooker with him until 4 a .m. And then go out on a walk and play, like, soccer in the middle of the road.

[1314] And we were talking with some friends the other day, and my friend Kat was like, yeah, that's just not something a woman can do.

[1315] Yeah, that is a gender experience that you're having, like a very gendered experience.

[1316] And it's it's true we got to we got to pay attention in different ways yeah and unless you go in the buddy system or you're like I'd love to play soccer here's my friends that are coming with me we're all going together we don't have solo we don't have solo snicker privileges no not at all tragic so was that you know little bit of pensiveness or fear or you know whatever when you were doing the show was there any any of that that you brought into it with you I mean was there or are you coming when you do your character are you coming in it from you just go in and you're her and entirely and there's no nervousness about it you have that i think um any actor who says that shame is very far from them at any time is lying because we doesn't get all get here by being like well just in citizen i i think for jessica a lot of what she has you know he was the serial killer michael sheen plays my husband he was arrested in 1998 on our tv show um and is living sort of in Hannibal Lecterland.

[1317] And I have been living in my own prison of the Upper East Side of Manhattan, which is, you know, also quite severe.

[1318] And what was, first of all, the writing's beautiful.

[1319] So I feel so lucky coming off a scandal where, you know, to live in a matriarchy for seven years and have monologues and, you know, scenes that felt like one acts and just delicious, you think I might never, I may never get to work like this again.

[1320] But we have beautiful writers on this show.

[1321] And I feel so lucky to get to be Jessica.

[1322] And so much of it is on the page.

[1323] But also the shame is right there, you know, to still be tethered to him in name by choice.

[1324] But, you know, because we have our children.

[1325] And also that what so many people feel is the need to atone.

[1326] You know, they're not going to atone because they're there and they're psychopaths and whatever if they're still alive even.

[1327] But you survived.

[1328] And how did you not know the guilt of not knowing, the guilt of surviving?

[1329] and the drive to atone so that I also think you know I think when in your life and everyone's life you you irrevocably lose in a sense when the first person you know dies and when you've had a lot of death around you that's just always there like a little you know like a tiny little featherweight blankie that's sort of always shrouding you and and that's always close to me too so I can I can get to the shame and I can get to the drive to a tone and I can get to the, just the knowledge of death very quickly.

[1330] So, yeah.

[1331] She's like carrying that on her shoulders, even though it's, you know, your head is held high.

[1332] And it doesn't always come out when you have that shame as that, as humility or, oh, I'm bad.

[1333] It's, you know, sometimes it's that thing of just cut everybody off, get rid of it.

[1334] It's that, you know, people deal with it in all different ways.

[1335] That's a really interesting thing.

[1336] And, like, you're layering that character with, you know, those human, I guess, qualities.

[1337] Yeah, that's what acting is.

[1338] And writing, as you know.

[1339] Right.

[1340] Tried that.

[1341] Yeah.

[1342] Was there anything?

[1343] The, like, tone of the show is kind of spooky and, you know, macabre.

[1344] Oh, come on.

[1345] I'm so glad you guys have seen the first episode.

[1346] Because I'm so proud of it.

[1347] And, like, I just like to look in people's eyes when they've seen it.

[1348] It's so creepy and so funny.

[1349] Yeah.

[1350] It just amazes me that both things are so present, but that's life.

[1351] You know, you've got to laugh to get through it.

[1352] It's gorgeous.

[1353] Because you'll love this because you are deep in it.

[1354] They just keep the, what's the right way to say it?

[1355] They're just so smart about the crimes and the way they present them, the way they tease them apart little by little, the nomenclature of how they address the psychopies.

[1356] And it's just really heady and disturbing and delightful.

[1357] Yeah.

[1358] All the family stuff.

[1359] The family stuff is so human, you know, we've all been through something and we all don't want to grow up and be our parents.

[1360] So this is just that on crack.

[1361] Times a million.

[1362] Right.

[1363] I was thinking about that.

[1364] Well, watching it, you know, I just read the BTC, the daughter of the BTK.

[1365] I read her book and it's like, how do you look at that person, whether it's your father or your, you know, husband and think that's the daughter.

[1366] It's the person I knew for so long because it's not necessarily.

[1367] Yeah.

[1368] But it is.

[1369] And psychopaths are so good at the masking and living double lives and doing all those things that leave the people close to them.

[1370] Like, what the hell is going on?

[1371] That's the other cool thing is this is a, it's a procedural, but it's also a family drama slash touch of comedy.

[1372] I mean, I feel like that's a totally new combination for a crime show.

[1373] And it's so pretty.

[1374] Like they pump it all the time full of all.

[1375] all that fog and stuff.

[1376] He just looks dark and creepy.

[1377] And we've been, we were shooting some scene, oh, God, a couple of episodes back and they built us a basement.

[1378] And I think this is revealed very early, like, you know, a girl in a box and something's happening.

[1379] And I was down there yelling at a child, which, you know, that's what you do.

[1380] I always get hired to yell at children.

[1381] That should be the real question.

[1382] But I got so scared just because it looked so good.

[1383] It just looked so good.

[1384] And it got very, yeah, got really real for a minute.

[1385] So, that's cool.

[1386] Yeah.

[1387] That's cool when the set dressers are so good that you can actually put yourself there.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] No acting required.

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] Did anything creepy happen on set?

[1392] Was it, tell us it was haunted or something.

[1393] The creepiest thing is, and Michael, I mean, creepy in the best way.

[1394] Like watching Michael Sheen work.

[1395] You know, the first time, the first time really that we were together was at the table read and he and I were both at south by in austin when the table read was happening here in new york so they skyped us in and neither one of us are very adept at anything technological and so someone else was in charge of it and we're like scooted sort of thigh to thigh and we're trying to see on a camera a little laptop camera and um it got to his part you know his first scene and um our little you know our little thighs were touching i swear i could feel his atoms changed like i could feel it come over him and he did his part and he did his thing and he did his like he's doing this amazing work and then it washed away and then he looked through the thing he's like I've got eight pages I'm going to go pee I was so stunned by both the like level of work and then the like you know the humanity of the pee he's well and he is like he we were just talking about that because he always plays a noble character or just as such a relatable character or he's the every man or he's that great British, you know, the British guy that you love or whatever.

[1396] And this is his American accents, impeccable.

[1397] Amazing.

[1398] I mean, amazing.

[1399] I love waiting to see one.

[1400] Tom's too, though.

[1401] You know Tom's British too.

[1402] Really?

[1403] Oh, my God.

[1404] I didn't know that.

[1405] I did not know that.

[1406] Oh, that's hilarious.

[1407] Oh, credit to him then, too.

[1408] But I mean, like, I, when I look at Michael Sheen, I always feel like I know who I'm looking at it.

[1409] And in this, it was just like, oh, my God, he's gone entirely.

[1410] Who is this guy?

[1411] He wrote, he just wrote a, he wrote a movie that he's trying to get produced of, I think it's the Green River Killer.

[1412] He had just done like three years of deep dive on this particular serial killer, not to mention psychopathy of serial killers in general.

[1413] And so he, baby, he's locked and locked and loaded.

[1414] Oh, yeah.

[1415] He's in there.

[1416] He's got it ready to go.

[1417] Yeah, you can tell, though, because there is that he's got the sparkle in his eye that, you know, it's this.

[1418] serial killer sparkle where when people say like why would you get into a car with that person it's like because they're so good at it because they know what they're doing they're shiny yeah very much smart very much so yeah this is you can opt out of this question we were saying of anybody of cast members on the show who do you think could secretly be a serial killer if you say lou diamond phillow yeah please don't my childhood heart will break you know what you know he's We did a Richard Ramirez.

[1419] We did a Knight Stalker movie, Lou and I. What?

[1420] Totally.

[1421] And so I will say if, like, you should Google at least part of that because honestly, his performance is staggering.

[1422] Oh, my God.

[1423] He plays Richard Ramirez?

[1424] Yeah, he does.

[1425] Oh, shit.

[1426] Oh, we have to look that up.

[1427] Thank you.

[1428] And the kid that plays him, like, in the 80s is a flashback, you know, has both time periods.

[1429] Wow.

[1430] Oh, gosh.

[1431] How did they do his name right now?

[1432] teeth.

[1433] Yeah, he had prosthetic teeth.

[1434] And we had like in his cell, we had drawings.

[1435] There were actually Ramirez's drawings.

[1436] We had on the day that we did the takedown when the mob captured him on Hubbard Street.

[1437] We had two of the guys that lived there in the scene.

[1438] We had the car that he was trying to jack was the car we used in the scene.

[1439] Wow.

[1440] The detective that was on the case was our consultant.

[1441] So when I think about serial killers in my cast, I think, I know who it is.

[1442] that actually is my favorite we did the Nightstocker I think in the first year we started doing this podcast but that is truly one of my favorite you know true story moments is them recognizing him from the newspaper and the entire neighborhood coming together and chasing him to it's like it's getting me chills now and I know the story so well I love it East L .A. Also he is as a fucker atypical not atypical but well yes I hope atypical and because he was So, you know, without method, without care, without remorse, just interested in killing.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] So on our show, and I know you've got the questions, but we like to ask people what their hometown murder is.

[1445] Do you have a hometown murder?

[1446] Or the first story that you, like, Karen read about, what's his name?

[1447] Oh, John Wayne Gacy.

[1448] Karen read about John Van Gacy.

[1449] I read about, you know, Ted Bundy as a kid.

[1450] Was there one that you were just like, oh, this is the thing in the world that freaked you.

[1451] out.

[1452] I just, I very clearly remember the first person I knew to be murdered because she was a dear, dear family friend.

[1453] Her name was Jamie Hurley.

[1454] And her parents, her dad Lee worked with my dad.

[1455] My dad was an auditor for the state and he was a collector, tax collector.

[1456] And, you know, I forget what Mickey had done.

[1457] But when I knew her, like when I was born and adopted, I knew Mickey as bedridden.

[1458] She had rheumatoid arthritis so bad like she had lost her ability to I mean she had to use a bedpan like she couldn't get up nothing nothing and um Jamie was their only daughter and she stayed a lot at our house because you know it was enough to take care of Mickey you know it was easier for my mom to cook or you know like she and my mom was an English teacher and she and Jamie got along so well and Jamie was like 20 years older than I was at that point and well would have still been um if you're doing the math.

[1459] But at any rate, she was always around.

[1460] And then I remember my mom having to have this conversation with me about Jamie getting murdered.

[1461] And I just had no, like I had known people to die, but I just had no antecedent for murder.

[1462] Yeah.

[1463] And I, I just remember the like cognitive dissonance about having to try and take that in.

[1464] And then as she, explaining it got even more awful.

[1465] Jamie had been working at Juvenile Evaluation Center, sort of out, I think, Nurse Juan of Noah.

[1466] And, you know, she'd taken an interest in this kid.

[1467] And that kid invited her for ice cream.

[1468] And the last time anybody saw her was, like, in the parking lot at Ingalls, and they got in the car.

[1469] And they found her body, like, I think, months later in a shallow, grave and he eventually uh that was i think she went disappeared in like may and they got him in like july um leslie eugene warren is his name um they called him the baby face killer on some fucking show or other and uh he had killed four women um jamie was the third he was in this we lived in ashville and he have they caught him in high point they had arrested him after because he was a person of interest obviously because we all knew where Jamie went but they could only get him for um not having like the title to his car and like larceny of a purse and so they had to let him go and like gave him a you know bail of like 25 grand or something and so he was in high point killed another lady when he confessed to jamies he was like oh yeah you should look in this parking garage in the trunk of this car because that's where you're going to find this other person and it's still alive in all of us obviously because it's horrific, but also because my mom's whole life best friend, Faye, and her husband Ben, now live in that house.

[1470] So we're like always in that house.

[1471] We're making me live.

[1472] Oh, wow.

[1473] And it's so heavy in there.

[1474] Like, none of the actual horror happened there, but there's just such grief and, like, there's just so much grief.

[1475] So, yeah.

[1476] That is a town story.

[1477] Heavy.

[1478] Wow.

[1479] Amazing.

[1480] I mean, and that's the thing, too, is, like, you know, we talk about these.

[1481] stories a lot they're human stories these are their family stories there even if you don't know the people or whatever it's like it's part of the I think reason that it holds interest and maybe like we were talking about before of why do why do women love true crime and there's I think there's a piece of it that's it's you it's about holding grief and and maybe that idea of like I'll hold it for you and you can hold it from me me because we're all, it's the thing we're all afraid is going to happen or that you maybe think about.

[1482] It's like it goes, it takes it to the worst.

[1483] It's the worst case scenario of anything, obviously.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] And I can empathize with the family and friends of people who have to go through that.

[1486] And yeah, you know, maybe we hold it a little too much.

[1487] But yeah, we'll hold it.

[1488] Just something, yeah, something to think about.

[1489] Wow.

[1490] Thank you for sharing that with us.

[1491] Thank you.

[1492] Yeah.

[1493] Bless Jamie.

[1494] Yeah.

[1495] What was her name?

[1496] Jamie Hurley.

[1497] Jamie Hurley.

[1498] Also, just the frustration of, they could have had him and it's like a technicality.

[1499] One more person dies because of a technicality.

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] Awful.

[1502] Was the baby face killer featured in the first season of Mind Hunter?

[1503] Oh, I think it was in Investigation Discovery.

[1504] Is that sound right?

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] I think I've heard of him before.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] Well, thank you so much.

[1511] I mean, is there anything else you want to talk about with the show that you're excited about?

[1512] Because we can definitely get back into that.

[1513] No, I don't know.

[1514] You're in charge.

[1515] You're in charge.

[1516] You'll tag it when it happens and when they can tune in and all of that.

[1517] Yes, for sure.

[1518] We love it.

[1519] I'm so excited to watch the rest of the season.

[1520] Yeah.

[1521] Congrats on an amazing show.

[1522] Yeah, congratulations.

[1523] Thank you.

[1524] I feel so lucky to be here.

[1525] And in New York, I'm so, so happy.

[1526] Feel very, very, very, very happy.

[1527] That's great.

[1528] Thank you so much for making the time with us, too.

[1529] And sharing.

[1530] And I will say thinking, listening to myself, talk too much.

[1531] No. Thank you very much.

[1532] I appreciate that.

[1533] Wait, let me take a picture of us.

[1534] All right.

[1535] Ready?

[1536] One, two.

[1537] Wait, lean in.

[1538] Lean in.

[1539] You in, Karen.

[1540] One, two.

[1541] Got it.

[1542] Yay.

[1543] Thank you for being so open with us.

[1544] We appreciate it.

[1545] Yeah, we really do.

[1546] Nice to meet you.

[1547] Thank you for what you do.

[1548] It matters a lot.

[1549] Thank you.

[1550] I mean, grief touches so many people.

[1551] And, you know, the way out is always through.

[1552] then you don't know where to walk you know you come out into the light again and you're just a little stupefied and um you guys really put a path in front of people so thanks wow that's so nice thank you so much thank you congratulations great meeting you we'll see you soon okay that'd be great thank you thank you bye bye all right thank you so much bell and me young for talking to us that was so fun and thank you fox for sponsoring this episode um remember to watch prodigal son on Mondays starting September 23rd at 9 -8 Central and we hope you like this bonus episode this has been really fun yeah we had a great time doing it was it was super fun to do a themed show and stay sexy and don't get murdered go bye Elvis do you want a cookie