S5 E1: Somewhere I Belonged | Julia

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

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[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

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[10] Something was wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Many episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional and physical abuse, suicide, and murder.

[12] Please take caution when listening.

[13] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[14] Opinions expressed by guests of the show do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[15] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7 -2 -33.

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[17] Thank you.

[18] First of all, it's hard to believe that we're already jumping into season 5 of something was wrong, but I am really excited.

[19] As I've spoke to before, the formatting of Season 5 will be a little different, as it will feature what I'm calling Survivor Short Stories.

[20] This season will feature one -on -one interviews with inspiring survivors.

[21] Each chapter of the season will be formatted into longer one -to -three -part episodes.

[22] If you're interested in sharing your story, visit Something Was Wrong .com slash submissions.

[23] I'm so honored to share these compelling and inspiring stories with you.

[24] as we need encouragement and inspiration now more than ever.

[25] Our first Survivor short story features an interview with my longtime friend Julia.

[26] Julia is a modern -day cult survivor and an inspiration to me as a human and parent.

[27] My husband and I actually separately attended the church, aka cult, that Julia was a part of, and we suspected even then that this church was actually a cult.

[28] I'm so thankful to Julia for her bravery in coming forward and sharing her story with all of us.

[29] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is Season 5 of Something Was Wrong.

[30] We think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[31] You don't know you know me, but you don't know.

[32] My name is Julia.

[33] I am a 33 -year -old stay -at -home mother.

[34] of four living in Northern California, and I am formerly a Christian pastor.

[35] Why don't we start from the beginning, 2005?

[36] I believe that's around the time when you got saved.

[37] Can you tell me about that?

[38] Yeah, so I had been hanging out with a specific group of friends that I went to high school with.

[39] We were all very much into the hardcore scene locally and beyond, but they were very involved in different churches.

[40] I had tried that before, was not super into it, not this specific church.

[41] And they were like, you know, we've been going to this great place.

[42] And they actually have a venue there where bands come and play, you should totally come with us.

[43] So I went and checked it out.

[44] And immediately the atmosphere there just really drew me in because their whole message was, you know, come as you are.

[45] We love all of the tattoos and the piercings and the loud music.

[46] That's just what we're about.

[47] And I'd never been to a church like that before.

[48] It's funny you say that because that's what actually attracted me to go to the venue, the music.

[49] But then when I was there, I was like, oh, if I was going to go to a church, like this one's pretty dope.

[50] I can get behind this kind of church.

[51] There was so many young people there.

[52] Everyone was so lively.

[53] There was like really good energy because, you know, at least when I would go there because there was bands playing and you're young, you're in high school, early college years and there wasn't a lot to do around here necessarily.

[54] And it seemed like a pretty like safe place too.

[55] Like parents were a lot more willing to let us go to the venue because it was at a church, even though all I did was stand outside and smoke cigarettes and gossip with my friends.

[56] We think about abusers and how they sort of lure people in, right?

[57] And how they sort of attract people.

[58] And now in hindsight, I feel like the venue was sort of like how they got.

[59] the kids to be in the church and to do the things that they wanted them to do and to ultimately like have that control.

[60] It absolutely was a lot of the kids that I hung out with, not all of them, but most of the ones that I came to know through that, their parents were either just not really involved or like you said, they figured it was a church.

[61] So they were just very hands off.

[62] Some of them, their parents were even really involved in the church.

[63] And it didn't seem like anybody really paid attention to what was going on in the youth group.

[64] But I definitely think that like what you said, it just drew you in.

[65] There was something about it.

[66] And I mean, that's how Colts work.

[67] We come to find.

[68] Actually, my husband, who you know, Michael and I started dating around this time as well when I met you.

[69] And his band played at this venue many times.

[70] Lots of our friends bands did.

[71] My band played there a few times.

[72] and everyone who worked at the venue was working for free on behalf of the church, which was amazing to me because I knew that the church was making a lot of money from the shows.

[73] Would you agree?

[74] Yes.

[75] I didn't know about any of that really until obviously later.

[76] But it was part of that whole belonging because they made you feel loved and they made you feel accepted.

[77] And they're like, hey, you like being here.

[78] What about coming to shows for free and just working part time?

[79] And then can hang out with your friends.

[80] It was great.

[81] Like I have no bad memories of working at the venue ever because it was just so much fun to be involved in that scene and to like really be deep down in it.

[82] But it's just thinking back on it now is kind of wild to me because we should have probably been getting paid, especially when you've got a bunch of high school kids doing security.

[83] That doesn't really seem safe.

[84] Yeah, it wasn't safe.

[85] And like when I think of it now from like a venue, you know, As a kid, really, when I, you know, I think when we met, you were 17.

[86] I think I was maybe 19.

[87] I think I'm a couple years older than you, maybe a year or two.

[88] But what blew my mind is they would have these hardcore bands really at the peak of that hardcore emo phase 2005.

[89] Some of these bands were like huge names that they started getting after the venue developed over time and stuff.

[90] And when I think about that now, I'm thinking, how many thousands of dollars were they making and paying all of their staff zero dollars?

[91] like zero dollars we're definitely going to get into some of that too that that kind of blows my mind now as a kid I thought of course these people are volunteering it's a church you know why would you be paid but now as an adult I'm thinking all of those kids were working there what a liability how dangerous those shows there was fights all the time when I was there I can't tell you how many like bloody noses I encountered at that venue as men as well as many others I mean people get wild and things get crazy in there and the thought of it now as a grown -up adult I'm like I don't know how they actually got away with that because there were not many adults there there were plenty of child labor laws being broken not only within the venue but within like the entirety of the church as well as like extended avenues that they went down there were so many different things they were doing where there were underage people working for free because it was a servant's heart you were showing that you had the heart of God and like you were there to serve the people and serve the church.

[92] So that's definitely 100 % how they sucked you in with that part.

[93] But then, like you said, they were making money.

[94] And then you've got the youth pastor bragging about how he's only ever paid cash for cars and all this stuff.

[95] And nobody else is getting anything.

[96] And that's what always struck me about this youth pastor.

[97] We're going to refer to him as Lance.

[98] But my husband and I would always kind of joke about how he always looked like a million dollars.

[99] He would always be wearing like this leather jacket with these like flashy type shirts lots of gel in his hair and it just didn't really he himself didn't really fit the vibe of the venue which always kind of struck me as odd even as a kid but now it strikes me even oder because he really created the vibe and the ambiance I feel like and made it look a specific way but yet he himself didn't really seem to be correct me if I'm wrong, but I never saw him in like really wearing band shirts or like having tattoos or dressing the way that the people who attended the church did.

[100] Does that make sense?

[101] Or would you disagree?

[102] No, I totally agree with that.

[103] He definitely did not ever.

[104] It was very much a specific style that he was into.

[105] I believe that his wife was responsible for a lot of the decor and all that stuff with the venue.

[106] But she wasn't that way either.

[107] So a lot of that stuff in hindsight is very weird to me. Or maybe because they had so many young people building this venue, which was amazing.

[108] And like you said, I have so, so many good memories there.

[109] Some of the best nights of my life I've spent at this place.

[110] But even then when I started going, I had a weird feeling like this guy is a sociopath.

[111] Can you tell me a little bit about if you remember the first time or the first few times you met him and what your impressions of him were as a person?

[112] The first couple of times that I met Lance, he seemed super cool, was very charismatic, was very outgoing and loud and just joking around with all the guys and was fairly friendly at that point.

[113] It seemed like to me. I didn't really have any bad impression of him, but at the same time, I was a 17 year old and I was just pumped up to be somewhere where I belonged, as well as the rest of the staff who aren't particularly involved in the rest of this.

[114] Everyone was very nice and very friendly.

[115] but I never, never once got a weird vibe from the entire situation in the beginning.

[116] I just thought everybody who goes here is so happy.

[117] All of these kids are so happy.

[118] And you could see the closeness of specifically the kids that were in the high school group, the college group, the basically, quote, youth group.

[119] And it's funny because the kids who worked at this venue were there working so often and so frequently, it's like you all became sort of pieces of furniture there.

[120] When I think of the memory, I picture you there and your now husband there and these other kids that were working there all the time for, you were always there.

[121] We were.

[122] I can't imagine how many hours you guys were working because you were always there when I was there and I wasn't there all the time.

[123] I went to other venues and other shows and other things as well.

[124] How did that sort of begin?

[125] How did you start to get involved in the actual, like, working at the church.

[126] So I got saved in May of 2005 for reference in case somebody doesn't know.

[127] Quote, unquote, being saved is what it's called when you accept Jesus into your heart, which is a form of Christianity and becoming a Christian.

[128] So shortly after that, I started attending regularly, weekly, because they would have Wednesday services.

[129] I wasn't really involved in going to Sunday services then.

[130] And I don't believe I started working at the venue until 2006, right before I graduated, I think, because they asked me if I wanted to be on the leadership team, as well as they invited me to start working and actually making money in the church nursery, even though I had no experience with children.

[131] And that ultimately led to me deciding to go to ministry school as well.

[132] But I believe it was 2006.

[133] I started working at the venue every single show that they would let me work.

[134] I would consider this church to be evangelical, would be the word I guess I would use.

[135] Do you remember the type of church it was, like what category it falls under in the realm of Christianity?

[136] I remember it being described to me, and this is the way I would describe it to everybody else, was a Pentecostal evangelical Christian church, but that they were very fond of saying they were not about religion, it was about relationship, but that's what set them apart from all these other churches, that they had actually formerly done.

[137] been a part of the assemblies of God, which is a grouping of churches that are Pentecostal, but to a point, they kind of have boundaries, but they became too radical for the assemblies of God and were actually removed from the official grouping.

[138] So I remember going to the venue and one of these kiddos who was always hanging out at the venue working, one of the workers approaching me and being like, you should come to our college group sometime.

[139] It's awesome.

[140] There's screamo worship and there's fog machines and there's lighting effects and it's just like a show like it's just like the hardcore shows that we that you love that you're coming to and i thought that was a really good idea i was like really excited by that and i thought it was really cool from a conceptual standpoint that this church was doing something different with their college group services especially considering how many people attend to the venue so um i went with a friend of mine.

[141] And I instantly had the feeling of, oh, this is different than the churches I have attended in the past because people were speaking in tongues and lots of hands in the air and shouting and fog machines and lots of talk about physical sensations.

[142] Can you maybe talk a little bit about the actual the gifts of the spirit?

[143] Is that how you would describe it?

[144] Okay.

[145] I'm going to do this to the best of my ability because two years of bullshit ministry school didn't really prepare me. Can we get into that too later, the minis quote ministry school?

[146] Oh, yeah.

[147] Oh, yeah.

[148] Because now I have no career.

[149] So go me. The church believed in the gifts of the spirit, which were speaking in tongues, the prophetic, which it, you know, includes prophecy and all that, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, which are kind of complicated to get into.

[150] We won't go as well as they believed you could be slain in the spirit, as they called it, which is you've seen all the memes and the gifts and stuff of people like knocking somebody out in a church service where they fall over.

[151] That's what it was.

[152] My favorite is when they have it to let the bodies hit the floor, the Benny Hinn YouTube video.

[153] Yes.

[154] Yes.

[155] That is a fantastic.

[156] It's just a go -to for me. Sorry.

[157] Continue.

[158] It's okay.

[159] So the gifts of the spirit are broken up into three parts.

[160] the gifts of knowing, the gifts of doing, and the gifts of speaking.

[161] The gifts of knowing are words of wisdom, words of knowledge, and the discerning of spirits.

[162] Discerning means you can feel different energies and stuff, like demons and angels and all that kind of stuff is what the church believes.

[163] Gifts of doing are faith for miracles, healings, and works of power, which I'm not sure exactly what that is.

[164] Gifts of speaking are speaking in tongues, the interpretation of tongues and prophecy.

[165] with the whole prophecy thing they were very specific because I know that they brought it into the venue and we can get into that as well but when it came to the church you were only allowed to prophesy over individuals if you had gone through all the classes and all that stuff but you were not allowed to prophesy over the body of the church or over like governments and stuff like that for those situations you have to be a prophet like chosen and all that good by the church recognized by somebody in the church who was already a prophet So it's like a hand -me -down patriarchy prophet situation or like who determines it?

[166] Like it can women do it and men can do it?

[167] Yeah, anybody can do it.

[168] Okay.

[169] And that actually the few people that I recognized as prophets that attended the church were women.

[170] So that's cool.

[171] Yeah, that was actually fun.

[172] Can we talk a little bit about you meeting your husband and this group of friends that you got to know through this place and how you sort of bonded because it always really seemed to me from an outside perspective that those who attended this college group and this church were and worked at the venue were an extremely close group of friends yeah we really were the two friends that I went to high school with who introduced me to the youth group were my two best friends in high school and probably from the age of 15 on and then I was introduced to few other people obviously through that and we were all a very tight -knit group of people when I met my husband it was at a youth event and he came up and threw Sprite on me because he thought that would be a great idea to get my attention for whatever reason and it worked obviously because here we are so that happened four kids later for kids later yeah for one of our anniversaries he bought me a bottle of Sprite like a glass bottle of Sprite as a thing it was that's so funny to hear him doing that because he's he's just like the sweetest guy so i can't even imagine him doing that but you know when we were teenagers we were all idiots right so oh 100 % at least i was i don't know if it i don't know maybe other people have their lives together when they're teenagers but i certainly not i was i was real dumb for a real long time you were talking about the your best friends bringing you to the church and sort of getting close to people yeah that happened pretty quickly mostly because we would go to shows at the venue together a lot of of them were in bands.

[173] So we would go to other venues with them and help them with their stuff or we would just like watch them and stuff.

[174] We hung out all the time.

[175] And those people ended up becoming my family, which I believe was also a core part of how this church functions is because they want you to become that tight knit with these people.

[176] And I don't blame any of my friends that I made through this that went on during this time frame at all.

[177] But they were right in the thick of it with me. But a lot of them ended up becoming like second aunts and uncles to all of my kids until we all went our separate ways after we all left the church.

[178] After your husband gave you the Sprite shower and you started date, did you start dating like right away?

[179] Was that allowed?

[180] How did the youth group view you guys dating each other?

[181] Because it did seem like there were a lot of like couples, you know, naturally you have a bunch of teenagers working together 24 -7.

[182] They're going to start flirting and having feelings for each other.

[183] How did the church view that?

[184] Well, we didn't start dating until November of 2005, but they believed that the church leadership and the youth leadership should have a say and be able to speak into your lives as authority figures and people that you would check in with.

[185] And so initially, I think it was okay that we started dating.

[186] It wasn't a super huge deal, but I was an outsider still mostly at that point.

[187] I know that I wasn't really trusted because I was just a wild 17 -year -old that came out of nowhere.

[188] So I could definitely feel those vibes.

[189] Eventually, there was a point where we were told by Lance that we had to take a break from dating because I was, quote, unquote, too emotional as a, like, I believe 18 -year -old at that time.

[190] And that we just needed some time apart and that obviously did not last.

[191] so but they were they definitely believed that if we wanted to go on dates one we had to be with other people and two if if we were dating somebody you were not allowed to ride like with someone else of the opposite sex in the car like you weren't supposed to be alone with other people of the opposite sex how did it get to the point where your youth pastor was able to dictate and control those sorts of things.

[192] I know with you it didn't end up working out so well for him, but we'll get into that later.

[193] Obviously, you guys are married.

[194] But how do you think it got to that point?

[195] How do you think he was able to get all of these people to follow him and do all of this work for free and listen to him in that way?

[196] I mean, he was a sociopath for sure.

[197] And he, the way that he talked and with his charisma and all of that stuff you believed what he said and that it was everything was true and the way that he dictated what the Bible said and for me personally I didn't have very much knowledge of the Bible.

[198] I still, it's a little rough around the edges, but I don't think I personally knew enough that I just wasn't strong enough to say, no, I don't think you should be having that stance in my life or you shouldn't be having that authority in my life.

[199] I know for my husband, he was like raised up in the church.

[200] So there was no question for him.

[201] This is a person in church authority.

[202] This is somebody you listen to and who you obey and follow.

[203] And I think that was the same for quite a few others.

[204] Oh, I didn't realize that.

[205] So your husband grew up in this church?

[206] Not this one specifically, but he had gone, he was at this church from, I want to say he was like 13 on.

[207] But he was born and raised Christian and a very similar type.

[208] Were your parents religious?

[209] Did you, I know you said you became saved after you started attending the church, but did you grow up attending church at all?

[210] Or did your parents practice any sort of religion?

[211] I was, or my mom was Catholic and actually was deeply involved in her Catholic youth group for a very long time, similarly to the way that I was.

[212] But I was never baptized Catholic like my brother was or anything like that.

[213] And my dad sort of was Methodist, but we never went to church with him.

[214] I had gone to church a couple of times with like an aunt when I was in junior high and that was about the max before I started going to church in high school.

[215] Very little religious experience.

[216] Yeah.

[217] What did they start to think?

[218] Did you share with them when your youth pastor pulled you aside and was like, I don't think you guys should be dating.

[219] Did you tell your parents this?

[220] I don't think that I did because it's just a little complicated, my relationship in that way with them.

[221] But there were a lot of things that I didn't talk about with them.

[222] And so I think I thought that I was handling it and that it was fine and it was something I could manage on my own.

[223] So I didn't really talk to them about that part.

[224] Later on, years later after leaving the church and talking to them about it, they knew the entire time that it wasn't okay and that that church was a cult.

[225] And what Lance was doing was just manipulation all around.

[226] And they said they couldn't do anything to stop it.

[227] That's so sad.

[228] One of the things, that drew me to have you come on the podcast is that I think these modern cults effortlessly exist and I think this church is such a good example of that that from the outside it just looked it just looks like a regular old church right sure it was modern and there was some some edgy quote unquote practices maybe happening but to me I didn't recognize that it was a cult until I'm met the youth pastor and began to hear him speak and as you mentioned and as I mentioned before and having grown up with a father who's a sociopath you come to easily recognize that sort of trait in another person and your your red flags and your defense mechanisms kind of kick in and I had that with him instantly and I remember him just trying to see what he could get away with me and I was standing outside smoking and he came up to me and was criticizing me for smoking and was asking me why I was smoking and like what I thought I got out of it and why I didn't go to church and all these sorts of things.

[229] And he wasn't being like super aggressive about it.

[230] He was trying to come at it like, hey, I'm, I'm your older brother.

[231] I was just this young girl and this, I don't know how old you would say he was at that time, maybe 30.

[232] early 30s?

[233] No, like late 20s, early 30s.

[234] So he was then our age now.

[235] I feel like he was reading me and my answers and kind of would see what he would, the way he would talk to me was like, I'm going to ask you these questions and give you this advice and I'm going to see what your response is before I decide whether or not I'm going to continue to push you if that makes sense.

[236] And that was pretty much the only conversations I really had with him or him saying, hey, you need to come to a youth group.

[237] It's awesome.

[238] We're going to have like screaming there.

[239] There's going to be like screaming and there's going to be like lighting effects and all that kind of stuff.

[240] I mean, which is his job.

[241] Like, granted, that was kind of why they, it seemed like why they had the venue was to really try to recruit other kids to join the church.

[242] Would you agree with that?

[243] Or was it to make money?

[244] I think overall he was all about numbers and he was all about income.

[245] As far as what you said about, his like questioning you and all that stuff he was all about a confrontation he wanted to stir up shit all the time and he was like i'm going to go talk to this person about this and like would come in there defensive and like ready to throw down because he wanted to be right and he wanted to prove to you that he was right so that he could prove that he was in charge of whatever the fuck and that was all to boost his own ego.

[246] Truly.

[247] I don't think any of it, even to this day, has to do anything with the kingdom of God.

[248] I think it all has to do with making Lance feel like the boss.

[249] And that's initially because it started out with him as the youth pastor.

[250] I think when it was first getting going and when the venue was first getting going, he was very hands on on getting people in on his own and kind of building a relationship, but not enough to like actually let people see him up close.

[251] and as he got more and more of us to do his dirty work for him, he didn't have to talk to any of those people anymore.

[252] And that was perfect for him because they were too lowly for him anyway.

[253] Yeah.

[254] Confrontational is a really good way.

[255] It's that antisocial personality trait.

[256] Yes, it was like, why are you doing this?

[257] Explain this to me. And now when I think I'm like, who the F are you?

[258] I don't even know you.

[259] Like, why are you, you know what he mean?

[260] Why did he think absolutely he would act like because you attended shows there you owed him something and another thing that he would do with me and a couple of my friends is he would always quote put us on the list and this is he would have shows then the shows turned into like there was a VIP area do you remember this of course you do 100 yes okay so you could like pay extra to get into this like VIP area and he was just very much like any other venue owner, which should have been a red flag to me, but it wasn't at the time.

[261] But I loved the people who attended the church so much, the kids that worked at the venue.

[262] I really wanted to like the church.

[263] I really wanted it to work out because I just love the venue.

[264] I love the vibe of it.

[265] And I wanted to believe that it was what it was presenting as.

[266] So I remember going to one of the college groups.

[267] And I started to become concerned when I heard the youth pastor start talking about someone named Wigglesworth.

[268] Oh, shit.

[269] Oh, shit.

[270] How would you explain who Wigglesworth is for those who don't know?

[271] So Smith Wigglesworth was an evangelist back in the earlier 1900s.

[272] And the story that was told, because he was a Pentecostal pastor, the only story.

[273] story that I remember them talking about Smith Wigglesworth all the time was that somebody had a baby and the baby died or was stillborn and that Smith Wigglesworth in a church service kicked the baby like punted it like a football I'm so sorry this is very graphic and then the baby came back to life because God healed the baby this is the shit that I heard and I was like what the fuck is happening right now.

[274] I never went back.

[275] After that, I walked out.

[276] I started smoking my cigarette.

[277] Like, it was the most bizarre thing.

[278] And I think especially for me, somebody who didn't grow up with religious parents of any kind, my church experiences were very youth group casual.

[279] My mind was blown.

[280] Then I talked to my husband about it because we had started like hanging out more.

[281] And he grew up in a very evangelical cult church, which is a story for another time.

[282] But he started telling me, Tiffany, these people are not following the Bible.

[283] This guy is not even using the Bible during these services.

[284] He's just going off on his own thing because he had attended the church as well.

[285] And he was saying, no, you don't understand.

[286] Even as far as these sorts of churches go and people have their beliefs, this is a different type of evangelism and I was shocked.

[287] Like, what did you think when you heard this?

[288] Like, how did you, how did they convince people?

[289] Like, did you think it was real?

[290] Were you like, that's, that's insane.

[291] This, this person is full of it.

[292] I honestly, I have no clue what I was thinking at that point.

[293] Because so during my experiences, like in these services and stuff, I felt what I thought at that point in time was the presence of God.

[294] I believed that I was having spiritual experiences at this church that I could physically feel and see all around me. So when I heard that story, I remember being like, what the fuck?

[295] But like not what the fuck enough apparently to leave.

[296] So that, I mean, because they preached about healings and stuff all the time.

[297] And because it happened so long ago, I was like, well, no pastor would get away with that now.

[298] So, okay, here we go.

[299] and just kind of like went off with it and didn't think anything else of it when I really should have you also had those social ties already right oh definitely I was walking in more of like a casual person who was just trying it out I remember my husband and I um his band was on tour and they were doing a festival I think it was in northern California you may have been there um it was called Joshua Fest Julia did you go to the I never went to Joshua Fest so we went to Joshua Fest so we went to Joshua Fest in a big group of kids that were there, were there from this church.

[300] And there was this really lovable older guy, a little bit older than the rest of the young kids in the youth group.

[301] And he was a very heavy, heavy guy.

[302] And I was talking to him and some of the other boys from this church were going to go have pizza.

[303] And he wasn't allowed to go.

[304] And I said, what do you mean you're not allowed to go?

[305] And he said, well, our pastor, your former youth pastor, told me that I couldn't attend any extra church activities, social activities, where I wasn't working, basically, until I lose weight.

[306] Because he was lacking spiritual discipline with his obesity, apparently.

[307] Yep.

[308] I can confirm that story.

[309] I was blown away.

[310] red flag, red flag, that's when I started to actually feel actively concerned for the people in the group and started expressing that to our mutual friends, not in an aggressive way or anything, but just kind of being, asking more questions.

[311] A lot of times we would go to Denny's after shows.

[312] And I remember a conversation my husband having with one of the guys who was, I believe, living on the church campus at this point if it was between Jesus and your youth pastor and both were giving you direction and you had to choose which one which would you choose the Bible or your youth pastor and the kid said my youth pastor I believe him and that struck me as well can you speak to that a little bit from your experience for me personally I I would like to say that that wouldn't have been me, but who knows?

[313] But the group was very devoted to Lance and to his wife.

[314] And they were willing to do what he asked, even though it was completely ridiculous, 99 .9 % of the time.

[315] And even though it was literally free manual labor, he just had some weird power over all of us.

[316] And I, looking back on it now, I don't understand, like, at all.

[317] I can see straight, through that bullshit from a mile away now.

[318] And it's, it's just so obvious.

[319] All of it is so obvious.

[320] And I think he just happened to pick the right group.

[321] A lot of times it was, he was the only adult there that I saw.

[322] Once in a while there would be another adult there, but the other adult is still to this day somebody I would trust quite a bit, but I wouldn't, I don't understand how he got away with it.

[323] I think some of the parents who went to the church trusted him and were just like, yeah, it's cool and then everybody else's parents like weren't involved or like just kind of like letting it go.

[324] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[325] I'm Sachi Cole.

[326] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[327] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[328] We've covered stories like a shark tank surrogens.

[329] We've covered stories like a shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[330] He then began to pray on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[331] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judici, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[332] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[333] You can Listen to scam influencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[334] I'm Dan Tversky.

[335] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[336] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[337] I'm like, stop around.

[338] She's like, I can't.

[339] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[340] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[341] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[342] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[343] Well, you were holding something back.

[344] Intentionally.

[345] Yeah, well, yeah.

[346] No, it's hysteria.

[347] It's all in your head.

[348] It's not physical.

[349] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[350] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[351] Or is it something else entirely?

[352] Something's wrong here.

[353] Something's not right.

[354] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[355] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[356] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[357] You can binge all episodes of hysterical.

[358] early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[359] What drew you to attend the school and how would you describe the school to somebody who's not familiar?

[360] So for me, I was drawn to the school, obviously, because all of my friends were going to go and I didn't really have any set plans for college because I didn't have the grades or any like major aspirations other than being a photographer.

[361] And I was like, well, I could be a photographer and a pastor so that's cool so i just decided you know i want i think i want more of god i think i want to experience more and learn more especially so i'm going to go ahead and try this now the pastor that was in charge of the school at the time is a good guy and a lot of this stuff is he like was handed off the school from somebody else and it was there were some aspects where it was like lance would get involved and he would be like oh yeah you guys are going to practice having a servant's heart, you're going to paint the entire building where the school takes place.

[362] And, oh, for this day, you guys are going to help us with the harvest carnival, which they would have every year.

[363] It was huge.

[364] And we would literally work for weeks and weeks and weeks up to it and then work the entire thing.

[365] So a lot of it was honestly just labor the whole time.

[366] And the Fourth of July booth, I remember, was a big one.

[367] Yes.

[368] Seeing all of you just stuck.

[369] in those, I mean, freaking Sacramento in July, everyone is a fucking nightmare.

[370] Truly.

[371] It's like 120 degrees every day, full of smog, dry as hell, just, I mean, at least we don't have humidity, so there's that.

[372] But being trapped in a fireworks booth for a week or two, just sweating your balls off, I just, you would have to really be convinced to get a bunch of teenagers to do that for free for you because I can't imagine how much money they made off of that booth.

[373] I know that was a huge one too.

[374] Oh yeah.

[375] And initially a lot of us weren't even allowed inside of the booth.

[376] So that was you had to stand outside.

[377] We were forced to be on the street.

[378] Yeah, we were either outside of the booth or we were out on the street waving signs.

[379] So the signed waving.

[380] Did you guys do signed waving for other things as well, like for other causes or am I remembering that wrong?

[381] So there are two different scenarios in which there were sign holding besides the fireworks booth.

[382] The first one was the county was threatening to shut down the venue because it was loud and there were surrounding neighborhoods and they were complaining and stuff like that.

[383] So Lance got his youth group and additional kids that were involved in the local scene to come out and protest on the street to show that we were like the venue was doing a good thing because it was giving the kids someone.

[384] where to go at night just because it was loud didn't mean that it was creating issue in the area there weren't any burglaries going on and all that so we were supposed to protest that the second scenario and i discussed this with great shame unfortunately was during or leading up and up to the 2008 election and that was when they were discussing prop eight and prop eight was about keeping marriage between a man and a woman and not same sex.

[385] And so I don't remember exactly how it went down.

[386] But at some point, Lance encouraged the entire young adult group to go out and protest on one of the main roads in support of Prop 8 keeping marriage man and woman.

[387] And in that same vein, Lance's dad, Ben, who was the...

[388] the senior pastor of the church at this time, would send out a vote, like his, his recommendations and how he was going to vote.

[389] He would send them out to the entire church.

[390] Basically a voter's guide.

[391] It was a voter's guide, which is in exact noncompliance with a nonprofit.

[392] So they should have lost their non -profit status for that.

[393] It's illegal.

[394] Wow.

[395] Yeah.

[396] So the school of ministry was basically there to expand your, your ministry experience.

[397] And if, like, if you were to seek out a career in ministry of any kind, it was supposed to prepare you for that type of scenario.

[398] And for me, at the time, I wanted to be, I don't even remember, really, it had something to do with, like, traveling.

[399] I don't know if it was a traveling minister or what I wanted to do at that time.

[400] But I was like, oh, that would be kind of.

[401] of cool and I wanted to learn more about God and I wanted to be with all of my friends.

[402] And it worked out that every single one of them decided at that point that they were going to go ahead and go to ministry school, including my eventually husband.

[403] So it was it did cost money.

[404] I lived at home and went and I worked in the church nursery in order to pay off my ministry school.

[405] My husband also worked at the church in order to pay off his ministry school.

[406] I think 99 .9 % of us did the same thing.

[407] But some of them lived up at the house on the same property as the church.

[408] What happened after your youth pastor pulled you aside and said that he didn't think that you and your husband should continue dating?

[409] I think we tried to take a break for, I think I honestly think it only lasted about three weeks.

[410] And then we started dating again in secret.

[411] which doesn't work out for anybody when you're a teenager and eventually we kind of just brought it back around to him and we're like, you know what, this isn't working.

[412] We want to date each other.

[413] We're going to go ahead and start dating each other.

[414] Our parents said it's fine.

[415] So what was his response?

[416] He definitely looked annoyed at that point, but he was like, fine.

[417] Okay, you want to do it.

[418] I'm saying no, but you go ahead.

[419] And so we did.

[420] We obviously proceeded with a relationship.

[421] But I think at that point, specifically with me, he was more on guard with me after that and more trying to distance himself from me. Did you feel like your relationship with him suffered after that?

[422] Oh, 100%.

[423] Absolutely.

[424] Yeah.

[425] It kind of shifted.

[426] And I don't know if it was specifically because of that or specifically because he was rising in power in the church at that point, but he kind of from then on only really talked to you if he needed something from you or needed like needed to give you a command essentially.

[427] Further into my dating relationship prior to getting married, I was approached by Lance during a show at the venue one night.

[428] And Lance pulled me aside and it was just us.

[429] And he goes, hey, he's like, God told me that you and your, my now husband are having sex outside of marriage.

[430] And he confirmed it to me, my, my husband.

[431] And I looked at him and I said, no, we're not.

[432] And no, he didn't.

[433] And he got extremely offended.

[434] And it was like, well, I know what I know.

[435] And I walked, turned around and walked away on his heel.

[436] And I was just horrified.

[437] But I don't understand still why that wasn't a huge red flag to me and why I wasn't like, I'm never talking to this fucker again, because what adult man approaches a, I think I was probably 19 -year -old at that time, and says something like that.

[438] Next time.

[439] You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[440] Something was wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced.

[441] by me, Tiffany Reese.

[442] Music by Gladraggs.

[443] Thank you so much to each and every survivor for sharing their story.

[444] If you'd like to support the growth of the podcast, you can leave us a five -star review on iTunes, support the podcast on patreon .com, share the podcast with your family and friends, or support our sponsors.

[445] Websites and resources mentioned on this episode can be found linked in the episode notes.

[446] Listener cover by Catwhite, catwhite music .com.

[447] Follow me on Instagram at Looky Boo.

[448] L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O.

[449] Thank you so much.

[450] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[453] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[454] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[455] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[456] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[457] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[458] Was it a crime of passion?

[459] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[460] This was clearly an intentional act.

[461] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[462] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[463] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[464] Everyone had an opinion.

[465] And after the 10 -week trial, the judge, jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[466] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[467] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[468] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[469] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.