David Remnick (editor of The New Yorker)

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard, I'm joined by Mrs. Mouse.

[2] Hello.

[3] Hello.

[4] I wanted to know, do you think if we did the intro as Frito, if people would not listen, especially on experts on experts.

[5] I think, look, people, okay, okay, go ahead.

[6] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Experts on Experts.

[7] That's pretty good.

[8] That was good, yeah.

[9] Well, is he going to say more stuff?

[10] I don't know if he's going to.

[11] Oh, okay.

[12] He might come in as he does.

[13] Who knows?

[14] Might be some calls.

[15] Okay.

[16] We have a really great guest on today.

[17] Yes.

[18] David Remnick.

[19] Yeah, David Remnick is the editor currently of the New Yorker and has been for a couple decades now.

[20] He's a Pulitzer Prize winning author and he also wrote at the Washington Post where he knew Malcolm Gladwell ding ding ding that's right.

[21] They work together.

[22] We spend a good chunk talking about Malcolm.

[23] Whenever there's crossover with Malcolm, we're going to talk about him.

[24] Yeah.

[25] We just love him.

[26] We're kind of in love with him.

[27] Yeah.

[28] Yeah, he's so playful.

[29] David Remneck has a lot of great books.

[30] Lenin's Tomb, Resurrection, The Struggle for a New Russia, King of the World, The Bridge, The Devil Problem, reporting.

[31] We talk a lot about a profile that he did on Salman Rushdie, which is out in the New Yorker currently called Defiance, Despite a Near Fatal Stabbing and Decades of Death Threats, Salman Rushdie won't stop telling stories.

[32] This was incredibly fascinating.

[33] David is he's a polymath He's written about everything He knows about everything You know I know we had so many amazing experts on And we've talked to a bunch of goats On this podcast which is amazing And you wouldn't consider David a goat But he is Like being the editor -in -chief of the New Yorker Is the top The most you can do Yeah he's a goat Okay He's a good goat Are you making fun of me Frida or do you agree?

[34] No I just I'm learning the thing goat, and I'm saying, let's go, girl.

[35] Let's go, girls.

[36] Ew.

[37] Oh.

[38] Oh.

[39] That's da da da da da da da da da da da da.

[40] I hated that.

[41] That was a really crusty.

[42] It sounded crusty.

[43] Let's goat girls.

[44] Oh, he said let's goat girls.

[45] Yes.

[46] Let's go.

[47] Okay.

[48] Okay, David Remnick doesn't deserve this.

[49] Although I think he should do a profile on Frito.

[50] Oh, that would be great.

[51] Wouldn't that be fascinating?

[52] Yeah, I doubt there's ever been like a sincere article done on a fictitious character.

[53] Yeah, you don't even know what would happen.

[54] I don't know, no. And Frito doesn't know what the New Yorker is.

[55] Yeah.

[56] The city?

[57] No, that's just New York.

[58] Apple City.

[59] Big fat apples.

[60] Okay.

[61] Sorry.

[62] All right.

[63] Please enjoy.

[64] Sorry for the Romack.

[65] Wonderly plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[66] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[67] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[68] He's an armchair expert.

[69] Hi, David.

[70] Can you hear us?

[71] I can.

[72] Can you hear me?

[73] Not only can we hear you, but.

[74] really nice sound let me just first commend you really great sound station this is a professional radio studio yeah look at this crinkly board behind you this sound unbelievable dead mean yeah by the way nice dog behind you what that is some painting i can't tell if you're sincere or not are you sincere it's awesome okay so this is a great polarizing picture behind me men we like this Women are like, what the fuck is that silly dog hanging up on the wall?

[75] See, if you had a real dog, this is my terrible secret.

[76] Are we rolling, as they say?

[77] Oh, ABR, always be recording.

[78] But I love what you're about to say.

[79] I'm not good with pets.

[80] That's my great confession.

[81] We know each other a long time now, and I'm telling you that.

[82] Well, you know, I hate dogs.

[83] You're in great company.

[84] I don't understand it.

[85] We're living in an apartment and I have animals rolling around.

[86] I know.

[87] It's not for me. I know.

[88] People don't seem to understand that you can be.

[89] be stumbling on the overall concept, and I'm with you guys, which is, no, animals are for outside, and then humans are for inside.

[90] I'm all with you.

[91] I don't know if you've ever gotten to meet Mike Judge over the years.

[92] Have you ever got to interview him or talk to him?

[93] Well, I hope it happens for you.

[94] He's the most impressive human being.

[95] You know, he was a physicist before he was a cartoonist.

[96] He's brilliant.

[97] He's so weird.

[98] But he one time took a meeting at Fox and he got in the woman's office and she had this big, huge dog that shed everywhere.

[99] And he's allergic.

[100] Oh.

[101] You can't do that.

[102] Right.

[103] And the dog was like on his lap.

[104] And he's like, this thing's on my lap.

[105] She's saying, oh, oh, he's not a dog person.

[106] He's not.

[107] Oh, Mike's not a dog, like shaming him to the dog.

[108] He's not a dog person.

[109] And his example was like, what if I had a chimp, Pat?

[110] Why are we drawn the line?

[111] This is my point.

[112] I know.

[113] On flights, I really don't understand it because someone else could be, like, deathly allergic.

[114] Like, why do they get the ride -up way?

[115] Yeah.

[116] We have a rider named, Pat.

[117] Patty Marks, early on, people barely had heard of the concept.

[118] What do you call those support animals?

[119] Is that right?

[120] Emotional support.

[121] I forget what she brought on a flight.

[122] It wasn't a zebra.

[123] Some gigantic animal she brought on a flight.

[124] And people treated her with utmost respect.

[125] It was incredible.

[126] Yeah, I guess that shows the better side of humans.

[127] Maybe I think she brought a llama on a flight.

[128] Oh, my God.

[129] I'm sure it was a little llama.

[130] A pygmy llama.

[131] Only one L. Wow.

[132] But if you cough, no, no, no, no, no. That's a no -no -no.

[133] Well, I guess in some ways you could argue that it would be right to elevate emotional stability over an allergic issue.

[134] No, because you could exphyxiate.

[135] Well, I don't know.

[136] How would you feel if somebody had a big giant cobra under their seat?

[137] Yeah, no thanks.

[138] I can see I'm making friends already.

[139] I've already done it to everyone who listens.

[140] I can tell you how I feel and I'm going to guess not knowing.

[141] you at all, you'd have the very same thought, which is like, I'm scared, there's a king cobra under the seat, and wow, do I've got a story in the making.

[142] Not in that order.

[143] I think not in that order.

[144] Right.

[145] I say that all the time.

[146] There's like this sweet spot between, like, I'm miserable because something terrible is happening.

[147] And then there's this little transition where I go, oh, I'm going to be telling this to people soon and it'll be cultural capital.

[148] Exactly right.

[149] And I'm innately miserable when I'm on an airplane, so it doesn't even matter.

[150] I'm going in miserable.

[151] Right.

[152] Your expectations have been met.

[153] Why do you get the giant comfortable chair?

[154] Well, he is a much bigger boy than me. Listen, we pick our chairs.

[155] So people love to assume the patriarchy.

[156] That's a lot of chair.

[157] That is the patriarchy, that chair.

[158] It does kind of represent, yeah.

[159] It's a physical manifestation of it.

[160] Thousands of years of patriarchy went into making that chair.

[161] Yes.

[162] It lacks a cup holder, though.

[163] I know.

[164] That it does.

[165] And to be honest, a catheter.

[166] Because sometimes I'm in here for seven, eight hours at a stretch, chatting and guzzling coffee.

[167] Also, this chair is surprisingly comfortable.

[168] I have to say this all the time because in the comments, people are angry.

[169] People think I've chosen Monica's chair.

[170] Monica could fucking sit in a throne.

[171] Like, sky's the limit.

[172] Whatever she wants.

[173] So it's her choice.

[174] It's my choice.

[175] Well, to be fair, this was a sponsor.

[176] Years ago.

[177] Oh.

[178] But you could now.

[179] Now, oh, yeah.

[180] But I love it.

[181] Still a sponsor?

[182] No. I'm not even positive they're in business.

[183] Get a new chair.

[184] I know.

[185] You're right.

[186] Get rid of this whole thing.

[187] And you seem to be sitting on maybe a bar stool.

[188] You don't have any back support, do you?

[189] No, it's just a standard office chair and I've got a jacket on today.

[190] I really, I dressed up for you, just like you guys did.

[191] Well, listen, I do want to apologize.

[192] I was at the tattoo parlor yesterday.

[193] So let's set this out for the listeners.

[194] You have a gleaming right arm.

[195] It's all covered in that medical cover.

[196] I don't have any tattoos.

[197] shocked to know, but I'm sensing that's a newbie.

[198] The bulk of this was here, but yesterday, she went wild.

[199] She added stuff on the shoulder, the neck down to the wrist.

[200] It's everywhere.

[201] And yes, so my entire arm is inflamed and I couldn't put on a normal shirt.

[202] And I do apologize.

[203] I would have loved to present it better.

[204] You got to pay a price for beauty.

[205] That's right.

[206] Okay.

[207] My first question out of curiosity, knowing that you were at the Washington Post in 1982, were you there commensurate with Malcolm?

[208] Gladwell?

[209] Yes.

[210] Damn right.

[211] Malcolm Gladwell came along a little later.

[212] I'm a little older than Malcolm, but he came and he was a kind of science writer.

[213] And my favorite story that he wrote, and it might have been one of his last, was he did a profile with a straight face about a dog on death row.

[214] Oh, my God.

[215] And that's when you started seeing, oh, Malcolm looks at journalism a little differently than other people.

[216] Yeah.

[217] Yeah, he sure does.

[218] So were you friendly with him there or not till later when you were working with him at New Yorker?

[219] We were friendly.

[220] Lee, we weren't close in Washington, but the last four years of my time at the Washington Post from early 88 to the end of 91, I was living in Moscow, so I didn't see anybody.

[221] You were the Moscow correspondent.

[222] How many months of the year were you actually in Moscow?

[223] You know, every single day, 12 months a year for four years.

[224] With my wife, why I just married.

[225] Oh, my.

[226] Hey.

[227] Poor, what did she?

[228] Some people come with bad in -laws.

[229] Here's the punchline.

[230] I wrote for the Washington Post, and she wrote for the New York Times.

[231] So it was like one of those Hepburn and Tracy movies.

[232] Sure, a house divided.

[233] Rivals by day and husband and wife by night.

[234] It makes me think of the raging Cajun and his wife.

[235] Very similar.

[236] Yes.

[237] Okay, I could probably do three, four hours with you just on your Moscow deployment.

[238] Because you were there in the Soviet era.

[239] No, no, I'm going to tie up Malcolm.

[240] I find him to be like a woodland nymph or a spirit.

[241] He has some kind of transcendent magic to him.

[242] The first time we interviewed him, I was like, I'm so taken with how playful your eyes are.

[243] That's true.

[244] They're so devious in a wonderful way.

[245] You know, it's funny.

[246] I just saw him for the first time in a while because of the pandemic the other night.

[247] And he's now a father.

[248] And in some ways, he looks his age and in some ways he looks like he's 24 years old.

[249] Yeah.

[250] It's really an uncanny thing.

[251] And he's a serious person in many ways.

[252] But there's a kind of, you're absolutely right, a lightness to his.

[253] approach to a lot of things and he's light of foot too, you know, he's very fast, very good runner.

[254] Yes.

[255] Could we agree?

[256] Because we have a shared fascination.

[257] He's like the Muhammad Ali of kind of journalism writing.

[258] There's an irreverence.

[259] There's some dancing.

[260] There's some evading.

[261] He invented something new.

[262] I grew up in a hardcore newspaper world at the Washington Post, and he to an extent did too.

[263] But he really invented something new, particularly when he got to the New Yorker.

[264] He's not interested in politics in a straight -up way.

[265] Nothing could be a worse offer to Malcolm than to go cover Congress or the Kremlin or be the Berlin Bureau Chief.

[266] I think early on he had offers like that, including Germany.

[267] But he got completely enraptured with a certain kind of social science research and there's a playfulness about his ideas.

[268] And sometimes he's right and sometimes he's wrong, and I think he adds something to, I hate this phrase, but the conversation that wasn't there.

[269] He's just invented himself, and he invented a kind of form, and it was much imitated in his wake.

[270] Yeah, I think of this debate I watched he and Adam Grant have, also friends with Adam, so love both gentlemen, but I was watching this debate, and it was very ali -esque.

[271] There was a playful dance, a refusal to take a position, and really that's his position.

[272] It's like, no, no, I want to float around and poke at every angle.

[273] Which is very not like the more standard world that I inhabit it most of the time.

[274] He's something entirely new.

[275] And by the way, it can be slightly dangerous.

[276] I mean, in other words, if you don't take serious issues seriously enough, you can step on a landmine, and he knows that.

[277] But I really admire him.

[278] And also, I adore him as a human being.

[279] Okay, this is my last thing I'm going to take up your time with Malcolm.

[280] But in some ways, You could accuse him of avoiding a commitment to a side, to a position, and maybe to your point, dangerous to ignore certain things.

[281] Yet at the same time, I think there's a profound truth to the reality of everything is nuanced.

[282] You're talking about the old paradigm you grew up in, and I agree.

[283] Check your facts.

[284] Everything's got to be defendable in court.

[285] This is the truth.

[286] I don't think Malcolm is a lazy reporter.

[287] I think Malcolm works hard.

[288] I'm not saying he's always right, and I'm not saying I'm always right.

[289] No, no, no. I don't think that's what you were saying at all.

[290] I was only suggesting that we have a paradigm of absolutes, and I think we're finding out slowly that the world is, if anything, completely nuanced and not definitive on nearly anything.

[291] Any one of these decisions we've made historically, we can now, through the looking glass of time, we can go, oh, well, sure, we helped defeat Russia, but it gave rise to al -Qaeda, or it did this.

[292] I think the way I would look at it is that what I'm very wary of, of is righteousness.

[293] The sense for my generation, your generation, anybody's generations, they think they've got the world completely right.

[294] I mean, there's an interesting exercise to go through, and that's to ask yourself, if you're trying to imagine the world in 20 years, what will look horrible now?

[295] Right now, if you're of a certain politics and geography and so on, gay marriage is a given.

[296] It's a moral and legal right necessity.

[297] Obviously, there are people that oppose it and hate it and all the rest.

[298] But if you went back 20 years, you know, when Barack Obama was a liberal politician in the south side of Chicago and he fills out a questionnaire about gay marriage, he's not for it.

[299] Or at least he won't say it.

[300] So the things that we assume are the menu of righteousness are not going to last forever.

[301] And we're going to wake up in 20 years and maybe everybody will realize, boy, we've been treating old people horribly as a society.

[302] Or maybe we shouldn't have been eating meat, which I do.

[303] I'm not being righteous about it.

[304] One of my kids.

[305] is vegetarian, and I think probably right.

[306] And that's a good exercise to go through.

[307] Yeah.

[308] Anybody, whether they're 22 and full of moral righteousness or 72 and full of world weariness, it should always be on guard for that kind of self -comfiting.

[309] Yeah.

[310] Okay, growing up in New Jersey with a dentist father and an art teacher mother in Jewish household, I'm going to guess that the foundation is a little left -leaning.

[311] Is that fair?

[312] It wasn't political at all.

[313] And the real key to the crypt here is that it was not far from New York.

[314] Grandparents all either immigrants or recent arrivals from the obvious Eastern European Jewish places.

[315] What really influenced things was not what anybody did for a living, but was illness.

[316] My mother had MS in a very, very serious way since the time she was probably 30, and I was six.

[317] And in those days, there weren't drugs to ameliorate anything.

[318] So it was a gradual shift from attacks and fear of death, and then a stabilization, and then a deterioration year by year.

[319] And then in my father's case, who was the sole breadwinner, I mean, we were middle class in the sense that his peak earnings were $50 ,000, which, you know, we had a house that they bought for $12 ,000, and we went to public schools and eventually to university.

[320] But then he got sick.

[321] He lost everything in his early mid -50s.

[322] Can I ask what illness?

[323] Sure, he had Parkinson's and very severe and very precipitous decline.

[324] So what you don't want in this life is a Parkinsonian dentist.

[325] Oh, boy.

[326] It's like a Buster Keaton movie, you know, with his handshake.

[327] It's a funny joke, but a horrible one to live.

[328] So that really influenced things.

[329] Do you have siblings?

[330] I do have a brother who's, thank God, a doctor.

[331] Is he older?

[332] He's younger.

[333] Oh.

[334] Has that permeated your life?

[335] Are you a hypochondriac in any way?

[336] Are you very fearful?

[337] I'm not.

[338] My wife is what I would call not a hypochondriac, but a catastrophist.

[339] Uh -huh.

[340] Which is to say, oh, I have a headache.

[341] Certainly I have a brain tumor.

[342] Yeah, I can relate.

[343] She completely copse to this.

[344] Would you be more comfortable with that, moniker, if I could call you that?

[345] What do we think the actual definition difference is of those two things?

[346] Hypochondriac and a catastrophist?

[347] Well, I imagine there's no kernel of truth to the hypochondriac.

[348] Or you could argue that would be how you delineate.

[349] I think catastrophist is ultimate.

[350] ultimately well -rooted in reality because sooner or later you're going to be right.

[351] That's true.

[352] I hope I haven't ruined your day.

[353] No, no. I'm looking for a good angle, positive angle on my hypochondria.

[354] Okay, now I would have gone the other way.

[355] So what I look at in your career, I have to say, if I were you, you did everything I would want to do.

[356] So I was an anthropology major, but I want to do my ethnography on the hell's angels.

[357] I'm obsessed with danger, dangerous things, dangerous people.

[358] want to get close to it.

[359] I want to understand how they're navigating it.

[360] And I think if we just look at, you know, Moscow in the Soviet era, that's a fucking Hemingway -esque adventure.

[361] That's, I think, a scary proposition in the 80s.

[362] It wasn't scary at all.

[363] It was thrilling.

[364] There was no Ukraine war at that time.

[365] There were outbursts of violence in that period.

[366] In Tbilisi, in Georgia, in Armenian, Azerbaijan, considering how revolutionary those times were.

[367] And you were We're seeing the last empire on earth crumbling its ideology of communism and also its imperial bearings both on Eastern and Central Europe and the republics of the Soviet Union.

[368] That was falling apart too, that there wasn't infinitely more violence, is a miracle.

[369] So most days, although exciting, was not what foreign correspondents called bang, bang.

[370] It wasn't like covering the war in Afghanistan or Ukraine or the Iran -Iraq War in the 80s.

[371] It was very different from that, safer.

[372] Okay, now what was your day -to -day life like there's no store for you to go to?

[373] Like a very Spartan existence, those four years?

[374] It was quite Spartan.

[375] So my wife is named Esther Fine, and she wrote for the New York Times and I for the Washington Post, and we lived for most of the time there in a very small one -bedroom apartment.

[376] And in those days, the Soviet authorities completely controlled how foreigners and foreign correspondents lived as well as diplomats.

[377] We had special license plates so that we were identified.

[378] Oh, wow.

[379] We could only live in certain apartment buildings with other foreigners.

[380] Our apartments were absolutely certainly bugged.

[381] Anybody we employed, you know, nannies or translators, office workers, they all had to report to the authorities that were linked to the KGB.

[382] And you were aware of this, and then you became unaware of it.

[383] You stopped thinking about it, became the norm.

[384] Moscow in those days, I mean, with the exception of sort of hotel restaurants and really kind of disgusting place, there was no restaurants.

[385] There wasn't a hell of a lot to do in the conventional Western sense.

[386] That all came much later with the arrival of capitalism, for one of a better word.

[387] So it's not like we went out to restaurants in the evening.

[388] We spent not a dime.

[389] We just worked.

[390] Couldn't spend money.

[391] Everything you did, go to the movies, go to the theater, go to friends' houses for dinner, all informed yours.

[392] your knowledge of this unbelievable story.

[393] It just made you smarter and more aware to be out in the world.

[394] But there was no separation of work and play.

[395] Okay.

[396] What do you miss about that period?

[397] Because it sounds boring, right?

[398] But I think within great boredom there could be something true.

[399] I enjoy my work now, but I readily copped to the fact that some of the work is more fun than others.

[400] First of all, I was young.

[401] So there's the different feeling of being 29 as opposed to what I am now.

[402] So that can't be separated out of it.

[403] And I'm utterly away from the world of obligation.

[404] Mm -hmm, yeah.

[405] The only way to communicate with my parents is by the very, very rare $19 a minute phone call in those days.

[406] There's no internet.

[407] I was just working for four years, and I loved it.

[408] I can't begin to describe it.

[409] Everything is new.

[410] Everything is interesting.

[411] You're getting better at the language if you're paying attention.

[412] you're getting more aware of your surroundings.

[413] And if you were ever born in Moscow, you got on an airplane and went to a completely different place.

[414] You went to Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan or the Baltic states.

[415] You see a new film, for example, that brings a completely different perspective on the world.

[416] And the first 15 minutes, your eyes widened.

[417] My eyes were widened for four years in a row.

[418] That makes me so happy.

[419] That's kind of my fairy tale fantasy of what it could be like.

[420] I imagine, too, that the sense of your own self -narrative must have been so fulfilled.

[421] Like, I would have been a little bit drunk on the story of it in a great way.

[422] I think that's right.

[423] We would get going at about 10 in the morning and then work till 2 in the morning every day.

[424] Why so late?

[425] Because deadline in Washington or New York was 6 p .m. And the eight -hour time difference you had until 2 a .m. to file.

[426] How did you file your stories, for example?

[427] So you go out, you run around to do this, and then you go on to, It was very sophisticated.

[428] You had a TRS 80.

[429] I think Toshiba made it.

[430] You had a screen that was three inches wide, and you would type your story onto this.

[431] You would type faster than the words could go.

[432] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[433] And then you'd file it.

[434] There's no such thing as the Internet.

[435] So then you would cut a long piece of paper tape like you saw in old movies about the stock market and feed this tape full of holes into what's called a telex machine, which looked like a whirlitzer organ.

[436] And that would go through and it would take longer to feed this damn thing through the machine than it was to write the story.

[437] Great incentive to keep the word count tight.

[438] And if the goddamn tape broke, which you did all the time, you had to start all over again.

[439] And then you go out to the parking lot at 2 o 'clock in the morning to get in your car, and because it's so cold, the lock has frozen.

[440] So you take out your bick lighter and hold it to the lock until it melts.

[441] Then you get in your car and you drive home, and then what Esther and I would often have for dinner, is she would get black market caviar, and we would sit there at our, you know, four -inch kitchen table, eating caviar that tasted like library paste.

[442] A couple pounds of caviar.

[443] Wake up in the morning and start all over again.

[444] Wow.

[445] What a special experience.

[446] Yeah, truly.

[447] I bet it slowed time down, too, because it's so unique and novel.

[448] It was both glorious, and at times it was lonely.

[449] There was no leaving it unless you got on an airplane.

[450] And the Washington Post recognized that a job like that was maybe fraught with some tension, isolation, whatever.

[451] I didn't have to tell them we were thriving on it.

[452] And they would just sort of send you anywhere in the world to get a break for a couple of weeks.

[453] So, you know, we went to other places.

[454] Oh.

[455] Yeah, just to do nothing.

[456] Now, is there some understanding you gathered in that period that feels now informative for what we're witnessing?

[457] I guess that period you were there was when maybe Putin was being groomed as the governor.

[458] Oh, no, he was still in Germany.

[459] Putin was in Germany as a minor KGB, Lieutenant Colonel burning documents as the revolution bore down in Dresden.

[460] Putin was nobody.

[461] Putin first came home to St. Petersburg.

[462] Right.

[463] Wasn't he the right -hand man of that governor and got him out safely?

[464] Of the liberal mayor of St. Petersburg named Anatoli Subchak.

[465] And Subchak brought him in, and then he attracted notice in Moscow when he was hired in the Kremlin by the Yeltsin people.

[466] Isn't it because that mayor had been embezzling was certainly going to prison when he stepped down and Putin successfully got him out of the country?

[467] He was wrongly being prosecuted.

[468] Subject was a flawed person, but he was honest, certainly by Soviet standards at that time.

[469] A very decent person so far as I know.

[470] So the relationship was rather considering the way history played out pretty odd.

[471] But after I came back, I spent a year writing a book called Lenin's Tomb, and then I joined The New Yorker.

[472] and as a writer for the New Yorker, and even as an editor, I would go once or twice a year to do stories.

[473] Very often somebody is a foreign correspondent somewhere, and then that's it.

[474] But Russia continued, and Russians continued to be part of our lives.

[475] Yeah, huge stories over the last 30 -some years.

[476] So I guess my curiosity is, is there anything about Ukraine right now that having lived there and really known Russians that you have a slightly different perspective than what we might all have.

[477] I used to go to Ukraine all the time, and by about 1989, 1990, I went to Western Ukraine, what we now called Leviv, then called Levov, and would meet surreptitiously with these Ukrainian nationalists who were campaigning for the independence of Ukraine.

[478] This was considered unbelievably radical.

[479] But history was accelerating at such a point that by the time 1991 came along, that which was being met in basements by former political people, prisoners was mainstream.

[480] At the end of 1991, there was a referendum on Ukrainian independence that passed by 90%.

[481] So when Putin says that Ukraine is a fiction and it's not a country, it's just bullshit.

[482] Is Ukraine and Russia linked historically, linguistically, and all the rest?

[483] Absolutely.

[484] It's more complex than the United States and Canada, but Ukraine is a real place with a culture and a language and a history and it's intertwined with Russia.

[485] But it is itself and what's going on now i pay attention to a lot as a human being and as an editor and it is a horrific murderous travesty we hear a lot about the heroism of ukraine which is absolutely true but the problem is is russia is very big and it doesn't see a way out certainly that it'll take and i think a lot more people are going to die and a lot more ruin is going to happen in ukraine before anybody finds the capacity to come to a settlement The Hitler parallels are pretty juicy.

[486] They're pretty there.

[487] I would avoid it.

[488] I only say it to make my prediction, which is, if he doesn't get assassinated, I do think a suicide is quite likely for us to witness.

[489] I'm curious what you think about that.

[490] I respectfully don't agree.

[491] I think that he's isolated.

[492] I think he has no interest in killing himself.

[493] I think these rumors of him being ill or having cancer bullshit.

[494] Oh, you do?

[495] Yeah, I do.

[496] I think they're what Dr. Johnson called the triumph of hope over experience.

[497] And there's no evidence.

[498] You know, you see some little clip on somebody's website and his hand vibrates for two, oh, he's definitely has Parkinson's.

[499] No, he doesn't.

[500] Right, right.

[501] You're guessing, and you're guessing on no evidence.

[502] What he has is he made a gigantic, strategic error.

[503] He thought he was going to capture Kiev in three or four days or two weeks, kick out Zelensky and make Ukraine a loyalist rump state of Russia.

[504] and that the end of the Ukrainian push to the West and the EU and all the rest would be over.

[505] And it failed.

[506] But he has the capacity to destroy city after city in Ukraine.

[507] Yes, the Russians may be losing a lot of people.

[508] Yes, the Russian army is much worse and more disorganized than we ever thought, but Russia is a very big country with a lot of resources and its capacity to do evil.

[509] unfortunately is not limited.

[510] And a really rich history of winning wars of attrition, right?

[511] My suicide prediction is not because out of nowhere he'll do it.

[512] But if at any point the walls close in on him, I don't think he has the temperament to ever look defeat in the camera.

[513] But how would the walls close in on him?

[514] It's not as if Ukraine is going to make an attack on Moscow.

[515] It's not as if the West wants to prosecute war on Moscow.

[516] And it's not as if the politics, in the corridors of power are to the pacifist left of Putin.

[517] In fact, if he's getting criticized heavily at all in the corridors of power, and that's where it counts, it's that he's not going hard enough and fast enough against Ukraine.

[518] Oh, my God.

[519] Okay, my hunch was there's a lot of billionaires that are losing money that could ultimately orchestrate something.

[520] Yeah, but their entire fortunes rest on the good graces of Putin.

[521] They made their money because of Putin.

[522] They signed up with Putin.

[523] They're in deep with Putin.

[524] They're right or die.

[525] Okay, it's worse than I wanted it to be.

[526] I'm sorry, I've ruined your goddamn day.

[527] I'm going to have to defer to you.

[528] First you have a painful tattoo and now you have this.

[529] Yeah, yeah, it's not the best day.

[530] Okay, you go to Moscow.

[531] That sounds very punk rock of you as a journalist.

[532] Then I look at the people that you're attracted to and who you want to write about.

[533] Right when you get to the New York, you do this incredible profile of Mike Tyke.

[534] Ultimately, then also wrote a book about Muhammad Ali.

[535] So let's just start with Tyson because I have an affinity for that guy.

[536] I can't really even articulate.

[537] I'll tell you, is somebody who started out as a sports writer.

[538] That's how I got a job at the Washington Post.

[539] I said, do you know anything about sports?

[540] I didn't lie, but I allowed the impression to sit out there on the table that I maybe knew more than I did.

[541] I knew as much as any other schmuck who watches games.

[542] It's not like I had some inside knowledge.

[543] You know, Ali was a hero of mine.

[544] I liked Ali a lot more than boxing.

[545] Right, sure.

[546] He was this beautiful athlete who also had great political meaning.

[547] And years later at The New Yorker, I convinced Tina Brown, who was then the editor, that it would be a good idea to send me to cover Mike Tyson's fight against Evander Holleyfield in Las Vegas.

[548] The first one.

[549] The ear -biting fight.

[550] Ooh!

[551] Now, I get there, I meet up with my friend Michael Wilbon, who you probably know from pardon the interruption on ESPN.

[552] So Wilbon's still with a post at that time.

[553] And we hang out, because the way to cover a fight is you go a week early because they're still training and you can talk with the fighters.

[554] Also, it's really fun.

[555] Of course.

[556] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[557] It's preposterous.

[558] You know, Wilbon and I did things like, you know, hang out at the shopping mall at Caesar's Palace and watch Louis Farrakhan buy four suits.

[559] I mean, how can you spend a better hour?

[560] It's fantastic.

[561] One of them was lemon yellow.

[562] Oh, baby.

[563] And the fight is just unbelievably fantastic.

[564] And Tyson managed to bite a chunk of Vanderholyfield's ear off and Band of Hollyfield completely masters Tyson in the fight.

[565] And also, we had had this big group interview with Tyson at Don King's house.

[566] We're put on a bus, the Hack Express, and we drive out of town into the desert, and Don King has this preposterous mansion or whatever the thing was.

[567] And he's there, and there's a white piano.

[568] I mean, it's just fantastic.

[569] Just so great.

[570] Everything you want.

[571] To write about, yeah.

[572] Yeah, it's all there.

[573] You don't even have to embellish.

[574] Just as a backstory.

[575] To cover sports these days.

[576] in many ways is a misery.

[577] The players don't need you.

[578] They make so much money.

[579] The old thing, we need the press, they don't.

[580] Uh -huh, yep.

[581] They don't.

[582] It's horrible.

[583] Try to do a profile of Derek Jeter.

[584] You'd like hurl yourself out the window.

[585] You have very little to offer them these days.

[586] Well, they don't want to offer it to you.

[587] Why should they reveal themselves to you?

[588] Yeah.

[589] It's only a detriment.

[590] They can control it themselves on their own channel.

[591] But fighters are different.

[592] Fighters are all by themselves.

[593] They're not surrounded by 72 publicists.

[594] So we get out there, and Mike Tyson, under pretty ordinary questioning, reveals himself to be this tortured, fucked up, fascinating, smart, just deep, weird human being.

[595] Yes, yes.

[596] Like something in a Richard Wright novel.

[597] So complex.

[598] And so you put all that in your notebook.

[599] And now, most of the daily sports writers, they use one quote or two quotes, but it was a gift to me as a New York writer.

[600] And I had, in my background, this Ali book already, so I knew a little bit of background about boxing.

[601] Then the fight comes, and that gives you your narrative.

[602] That gives you the action.

[603] That gives you a climax.

[604] And he bit his ear off.

[605] Yeah.

[606] How can you fuck that up?

[607] Yeah.

[608] As a writer, you can't.

[609] You cannot.

[610] One of the most legendary moments in sports.

[611] It's tied with ropadoop, probably.

[612] Yeah, it's up there.

[613] Oh, my God.

[614] It was like seeing a psychic break right in front of your eyes.

[615] I have heard, I make no claims of the validity of, these rumors, but that the owner of that big mansion would regularly take him off psych meds leading up to fights.

[616] I don't know.

[617] And that when you look at any legal trouble he ended up having, it always corresponds perfectly with fight periods where he probably was off medication.

[618] That's what I've heard.

[619] On the one hand, you have to feel sorry for him as human being.

[620] On the other hand, he was convicted for rape, which is inexcusable.

[621] You watch him even now because he keeps popping up.

[622] And it's just almost like a person without skin.

[623] He's just so exposed.

[624] And it's really quite something.

[625] The whole history of it is weird.

[626] And I ended up doing a profile of his former cornerman, Teddy Atlas as well.

[627] God, he had in his property, I believe, a tiger.

[628] And he had all the kinds of animals and the money was being wasted.

[629] Have you ever heard him interviewed on Stern?

[630] Sure.

[631] Yeah.

[632] And he talks about that period.

[633] He's like, Howard, I was crazy.

[634] I was sleep in this bed with two tigers.

[635] I'd wake up in the middle of the night.

[636] They're fighting each other in the bed.

[637] I'm like, can you imagine waking up with two tigers fighting in your bed?

[638] My friend and colleague, Kel Fasane, follows it much more closely than I do these days.

[639] But boxing is almost unique in this way, in the way it presented its individuals in such a vivid way.

[640] I think it's because they were alone and they do this brutal sport, which has a lot to answer for, quite frankly.

[641] I also think implicit in the boxing format post -paper -view, you have these long campaigns of building anticipation for the fight.

[642] And so they're also exposed to way more filming and promotion than, say, Jordan was going to do before game seven of the playoffs.

[643] Like, I think that's what's unique about the sport.

[644] You get the personality.

[645] It's the nature of the narrative, too.

[646] I mean, in a basketball game, first of all, it's a team sport.

[647] And there are other values at play other than beating the other guy senseless, which is, in the end, fairly inexcusable.

[648] And to go back to earlier part of our conversation with time, we're going to look back at that and think, you know what, maybe not such a good idea.

[649] And there are many things we'll probably say that about.

[650] But there's no metaphor here, right?

[651] In a basketball game, beating the other team senseless is a metaphor.

[652] Maybe a cheap one.

[653] In boxing, it's the object of the sport, is to knock the other person unconscious.

[654] And you can talk about art and sweet science and blah, blah, blah, all you want.

[655] But if you knock the other person unconscious, you win.

[656] Well, yeah, it's controlled chaos.

[657] That's his whole life.

[658] too.

[659] It's like, let's put this really chaotic thing and try to control it.

[660] And that is boxing.

[661] It's a fight.

[662] It's a street fight with rules.

[663] Uncontrolled violence, too.

[664] Barely controlled.

[665] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[666] We've all been there.

[667] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[668] Though our minds, though our minds, tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[669] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[670] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[671] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[672] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[673] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[674] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[675] What's up, guys?

[676] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[677] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[678] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[679] And I don't mean just friends.

[680] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[681] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[682] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[683] We have this with the NFL, too, and we're all wrestling with it.

[684] It's very exciting to watch.

[685] I completely copped to watching it.

[686] Even one of my idealistic kids, highly political, knows he shouldn't be watching football for all the obvious reasons.

[687] But when I say, so why are you watching the Giants game?

[688] He says, well, the Giants have a really interesting running back this year.

[689] In other words, he can't keep his eyes off it because it has to be.

[690] that attraction.

[691] But man, you meet ex -football players, and if they're lucky, they can't get out of a chair very easily.

[692] And if they're unlucky, they're dying at the age of 52 from brain damage.

[693] It's ultimately one of those things that we live with, we thrive on, money is made, and it's probably inexcusable.

[694] Yeah, I have a different, I think it serves some kind of societal purpose.

[695] I think we are primates that were evolved to live in a very specific manner, of which we do not live in anymore.

[696] We have these deep, primitive 200 ,000 -year -old fears that we need to see exercise.

[697] There are people that want to do backflips on motorcycles.

[698] I think because there's a socioeconomic lens, we could say that, you know, this is disproportionately punishing people of low income.

[699] That's a lens, but if you go, well, that lens doesn't exist in extreme sports so we don't care.

[700] I see that.

[701] We have on staff a woman named Louisa Thomas who writes about sports.

[702] Louisa is married, to a former pro football player who also happens to be brilliant and he's now a mathematician.

[703] John got out of the game because he could because he had something else he could do.

[704] Yes.

[705] I think if you looked around the NFL, for the most part, I don't want to overgeneralize, the difference between their lives as NFL players and what they would be doing if they weren't 6 -4 -280 running the 40 and 4 -5 and doing these unbelievable things is gigantic.

[706] And the careers are very, very short -lived, and most pro football players don't even make that much, I'm not talking about Tom Brady, because they're cycled through and they get hurt.

[707] It's not quite as lovely and glamorous, even at the pro level, as we think.

[708] It's gruesome, but I do think one should pause and say to themselves, it is also possible that a bunch of well -intentioned liberals are going to take away something people really want for themselves.

[709] If I were one of those players, I go, shut the fuck up.

[710] You go worry about you.

[711] Get out of your fucking high.

[712] horse.

[713] I remember interviewing Obama.

[714] Part of the trip was on Air Force One.

[715] I got to go to the front of the plane.

[716] There he is.

[717] And he's watching a football game.

[718] And I said, would you let your kid play pro football?

[719] And boy, did he not want to answer that question.

[720] Yeah, that's a tricky one.

[721] Because he said, no, I wouldn't let him.

[722] He knows that half the country or more would get on him for being a politically correct, you know.

[723] So he really kind of evaded the question.

[724] And he clearly enjoyed watching the game and he knew it was quote unquote wrong.

[725] We live with contradiction all the time.

[726] But look, most of the other countries of the world, not just Europeans, also come from the same historical background that you described.

[727] But they watch a different game in which you don't get your head blown up.

[728] Well, no, they watch rugby.

[729] Yeah, but that's minor.

[730] What's the big sport?

[731] Well, soccer is the biggest.

[732] I don't argue that.

[733] Also, cricket is huge.

[734] And very few people get killed playing cricket.

[735] Sure, but boxing is global and so is rugby.

[736] And I think bigger than boxing is ultimate fighting, right?

[737] Yes, yes.

[738] I just think it's worth pausing to make it.

[739] sure that there's not naive realism at play or some kind of righteousness where it's like you're going to shut something down for people who didn't ask you to I think we should understand what's what that's what's all I'm saying yeah I think it's brutal and gruesome and I agree with you there's a new sport that Kay Santa just wrote about you've seen the slap thing oh people slapping each other yes what yes oh my god you haven't seen this moniker it's incredible it's incredible just in case you thought humanity was only marching forward oh no in case Trump's election didn't give you a hint there's now a sport where you put a whole lot of talc on your hands and the guy sticks his chin out across the thing from you and you just wallop the shit out of them with an open hand and then the other guy gets to do the same yeah they're enormous unbelievable well the guy who falls down loses oh my god yeah I did this movie idiocry and the most popular show is ow my balls about people getting kicked in the balls I saw that slapping thing I was like we're inching closer we're almost out my balls is that because there was something with slapping and squid game.

[740] This predates squid game.

[741] This has been going on for a while.

[742] It was started as kind of an Eastern European kind of thing that's right over here.

[743] Okay.

[744] I appreciate your thoughts on all that.

[745] So let's talk about Selman Rushdie.

[746] I want to go into this conversation owning a little bit of my unwarranted skepticism, which is, I have asked myself over the years, is he more of a story than he is a novelist?

[747] He has taken this pedestal of like the banished genius.

[748] The story's so great.

[749] Branding wise, a fatwa from the Ayatollah Khomeini.

[750] I think it gives him some romantic veneer.

[751] I have wondered, does he warrant this as an artist?

[752] Mind you, having never read anything he wrote.

[753] So I have no business having this opinion.

[754] I get it and he gets it too.

[755] You know, I've known Rushdie because we published him for many, many years.

[756] And he was attacked and almost killed last August.

[757] He was stabbed at least 15 times in the face and the neck.

[758] and the chest and the liver and the hand, a horrible attack.

[759] And there had been a fatwa, an edict of execution by a head of state and religious authority, Ayatollah Khomeini, in Valentine's Day, 1989.

[760] And can we add a fund?

[761] There's a fund.

[762] $3 million.

[763] And for 10 years, Rushdie lived essentially underground in England, under protection provided by the state.

[764] But also a lot of people, prominent, famous, literary and political people criticized him.

[765] You should never have written that book.

[766] What did you expect?

[767] It was disgusting.

[768] Like victim shaming.

[769] I mean, people I admire.

[770] John LeCarray, Jimmy Carter, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the long, long list.

[771] Well, Carter's got a tricky Iran past.

[772] Well, I don't know what the hell he thought he could do.

[773] So that's 10 years of his life.

[774] Then he comes to New York, and for 20 -odd years, he lives much more freely, talking about Rushdie.

[775] And I do think he's a great literary artist.

[776] I think Midnight's Children is among the best novels of the post -war.

[777] period.

[778] It was published in early 80s, is a great Indian novel in English, written by not E .M. Forrester, who wrote Passage India, but by an Indian.

[779] And that opened up the floodgates for other younger writers of color, particularly from the subcontinent, who all admire him.

[780] I think he's a very important literary artist and would be without any of the fatwa, without any of it.

[781] If you ask Salman Rushdie, would you have preferred to have the fatwa or not?

[782] Of course he would say, I don't want the fucking fatwa.

[783] Well, he wouldn't have been on curvy your enthusiasm, then.

[784] I mean, how else do you get on curb?

[785] I'd do almost anything to get on curb.

[786] And I think he thought by going on curb your enthusiasm and kidding around about the fatwa with Larry David, he could render the fatwa ridiculous.

[787] Yes, yes, yes.

[788] And what August proved is that when you let demons out of the bag, it may take 30 years, but some lunatic is going to think it's a righteous act to climb on a stage and try to kill a novelist for having written a novel.

[789] And that is a horrible, serious act that we should do everything to denounce and protect against.

[790] So I think it's a very serious thing, and I think he's a hero.

[791] By the way, I didn't have full conviction on that.

[792] It just was a lingering thought.

[793] I remember being at Chateau Mar -Maw and looking across and seeing Salman Rushdie and saying to my wife, oh my God, there's Selman Rushdie.

[794] And then I just thought, you know, I wouldn't be saying that about a novelist if I didn't know this tremendous history of the fatwa.

[795] I think I just had this kernel of like, oh, that's a bizarre thing I've entered into and I'm now fascinated by it.

[796] But anyways, I say all that.

[797] I go into your article with maybe this little whisper of does he warrant all this praise.

[798] And then I learned his story from your article.

[799] And again, yeah, I didn't know about Midnight's children.

[800] I didn't know the history of him studying under the author of passage to India and passing that torch on.

[801] And it's a tremendous story.

[802] What's really interesting to get to your Chateau Marmont detail is that there were people who were inclined to be sympathetic to Rushdie that kind of wanted him not to be at Chateau Marmau or out a lot of nights in New York and having a good time.

[803] You know, they wanted him to like live on a fjord in Norway and never smile.

[804] And that's the proper way to be a novelist.

[805] Well, to be a martyr.

[806] That's the thing.

[807] Well, to be like Solzhenitsyn.

[808] When Solzhenitsyn came to the United States and was forcibly exiled from Russia, he basically created a compound in Vermont in the town of Cavendish, Vermont, and I went, interviewed him.

[809] Can you tell us who he is?

[810] I'm embarrassed.

[811] I don't know who that is.

[812] Oh, Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a great Russian novelist who wrote something called the Gulag Archipelago.

[813] Oh, I read that.

[814] I didn't know his name.

[815] About the Gulag system, and that was not appreciated by the Soviet authorities, and he was thrown out of the country.

[816] And when he came to the United States, he did not live in New York City.

[817] He did not go out at night.

[818] He did not go on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[819] He lived in kind of 19th century isolation in the Middle of nowhere in Vermont.

[820] And I think some people kind of reflexively thought if Rushdie's going to come here, that's the way he should live, like some kind of 19th century bearded guy.

[821] It falls into the martyr narrative a bit.

[822] Yeah, but people should not live their lives to satisfy the imagery.

[823] I don't think he should have.

[824] What I'm suggesting is it really, again, demonstrates the power of story and archetypes.

[825] And so at first, you learn of this person as being exiled from their home and under fear and there are martyrs.

[826] So you had to see them not then live this austere, humble existence.

[827] It counteracts this like, no, no, I was on this other story.

[828] He's supposed to be a monk now.

[829] You've read the piece, but very sarcastically, he said to me, I'm paraphrasing, but basically people were disappointed that I didn't die.

[830] And now that I've been attacked, they love me again.

[831] All right.

[832] Oh, wow.

[833] What a way to live.

[834] Yeah, yeah.

[835] That's so true.

[836] That's so human.

[837] 75 -year -old guy stabbed 15 times in front of well over a thousand people for whatever flaws he may have as a human being to survive the fate that he was handed, beginning with the fatwa, and to not ignore it, but to somehow shut it out to a great extent to write many, many more novels.

[838] 16 cents satanic verses?

[839] It's so prolific.

[840] That's an extraordinary feat.

[841] That's even better than having a high shooting percentage in the NBA.

[842] Yeah.

[843] So as I learned these things, I came to respect him more and more and get more and more fascinated.

[844] It's a brilliant piece.

[845] Thank you.

[846] Tell me about the gap between moving to New York and then to being on stage in upstate New York.

[847] And you kind of just hinted at it, but the joke he made, people are now loving him again because they're going, oh, I guess it was real.

[848] Some people were probably thinking like, oh, this was all bullshit.

[849] Like it's not that scary.

[850] And it served him, yes.

[851] And he benefited from this thing that maybe was over -exaggerated.

[852] But he himself, clearly, the threat had dissipated.

[853] You're absolutely right, Dexie.

[854] I think he thought that the world had moved on.

[855] Every day brings a new sensation and a new horror, and he thought his turn was over and that he could more or less do what he wanted to do, travel, lecture, write books, marry, divorce, etc., all the things that life brings.

[856] Unfortunately, there was this young guy we know very little about named Hadi Matar.

[857] Parents who were Lebanese came to this country, get divorced father goes back to Lebanon mothers in Jersey and at a certain point not long ago he goes and visits Lebanon again it seems we don't know yet we won't know until a trial probably that he got a head full of I wouldn't call it religion but fundamentalism or radicalism and he came back and living in his mother's basement not really working he got it in his head that it would be a noble idea to get on a bus go to Buffalo, get a lift, go to Chautauqua, and try to stab a novelist to death on stage.

[858] Life is a precarious and strange thing, and never more so than then.

[859] Yeah, I think for some people in certain political camps, it'll help fuel or perpetuate some explanation they want it to be.

[860] We just interviewed Scott Galloway, and he happened to mention this guy, and he said, you know, that's a product of a guy living in his mom's basement.

[861] I tend to lean that way.

[862] I don't know that this is an indict.

[863] of any religion or anything else, but do you worry when you wade into a topic like this that it is fodder for one version?

[864] What's your take?

[865] I try as a journalist not to guess, to speculate, and what we know about this 24 -year -old guy is pretty modest.

[866] He gave a very brief interview to the New York Post soon there after the crime, and the mother gave some interviews very quickly before she got shut down, particularly to the Daily Mail.

[867] I went out to New Jersey, to the house where the mother lives, and do what's called doorstepping, the incredibly dignified thing of banging on people's doors.

[868] How do you steal yourself for that?

[869] Well, that's part of journalism, and it's not an ordinary activity for ordinary human beings.

[870] Yes.

[871] But you do it when you need to.

[872] And I didn't succeed, which is what usually happens when you do that.

[873] Because clearly the mother and the family are under instructions, I would guess, by lawyers, not to say anything before the trial.

[874] I did speak to a guy who runs a boxing gym in Northburg in New Jersey, not.

[875] far from where I grew up.

[876] Nice guy.

[877] And he said, Matar came in and he took an evening class for some months.

[878] You know, he'd come in a few times a week, speed bag, heavy bag, sparring, jump, you know, the whole routine.

[879] And he wasn't particularly good.

[880] This guy prides himself on getting to know people.

[881] He said every day, it seemed like the worst day of his life.

[882] He was sullen and withdrawn.

[883] When he tried to engage him in conversation, he kind of whispered in non -response.

[884] And then in early August, or late July, I'm not quite sure of the dates, Matar emailed the gym saying that he was ending his membership.

[885] And on the header of his email, there's a little teeny picture of the Ayatollah Ali Khamni.

[886] Oh, wow.

[887] The current head of state in Iran.

[888] So the trial will, I'm sure, attempt to ascertain whether this guy, when he was in Lebanon or any other time, got instructions from somebody or influenced by somebody, who knows?

[889] Or he just might have sucked it off the internet.

[890] not knowing the guy knowing nothing just knee jerk it feels a lot like feeling like a complete failure in life not getting traction finding a fast pass to glory he wouldn't be the first yes and that's what i think is relevant for me you don't have to and you don't need to worry what the takeaway will be but i'll just suggest to people more foundational than any religion that's man made is that male desire for glory that attempt to have made an impact sense of purpose sense of connection to something higher and glorious.

[891] Yeah, you don't see women doing that a lot.

[892] No. Not so much.

[893] They're too lazy.

[894] That's what it is.

[895] Yeah, that's definitely what it is.

[896] You're too lazy.

[897] I'm leaving that with you, Dex.

[898] Too busy getting our nails done and stuff.

[899] That's exactly right.

[900] Now, you already knew Rushdie for a while, and he's written for the New Yorker.

[901] In this experience, I'll give you an anecdotal thing.

[902] I've known my mother since I was born.

[903] I then interviewed her on this show, and I found myself asking some questions that, Hey, I didn't even know I had.

[904] Time out.

[905] You interviewed your mom on the show?

[906] Yes.

[907] Okay, that I'm looking up, because that sounds like heaven.

[908] It's probably our best episode.

[909] My mother's story is incredible.

[910] Single mother raising three kids, lots of stepdad, violence, abuse.

[911] What was it like to interview her?

[912] It was beautiful.

[913] That is her superpower.

[914] She can be vulnerable and real and non -defensive.

[915] And while I was talking to her, it hit me all at once.

[916] I said, God, man, you raised us three.

[917] You built this incredible business.

[918] you start as a janitor, you're indomitable.

[919] How could you have been the victim of abuse?

[920] Like, that just crossed my mind.

[921] Because you were in an interview situation, were you able to say things to her that you wouldn't in an ordinary conversation?

[922] I wouldn't say that was what was happening.

[923] Because I can really ask my mom anything.

[924] She's always been insanely honest and open.

[925] It's just that it hadn't occurred to me, but the muscle memory of interviewing people is that's what I would have asked any other woman who I just met, right?

[926] I just heard that question coming out.

[927] And then her answer was, the shame of having failed again was more painful to me than physical abuse.

[928] And I was like, wow, that's an interesting explanation.

[929] I wouldn't have been able to guess that.

[930] And that makes total sense to me. Incredible.

[931] So at any rate, I tell you that because did you find yourself talking to this man who you've worked with and now under the capacity of interviewing him for this piece, were you learning things you wouldn't have anticipated knowing about him?

[932] I don't want to overestimate my relationship.

[933] We've published him repeatedly, mostly fiction, so you're not doing that much with it.

[934] And I've seen him here and there.

[935] We're friend Liban.

[936] I wouldn't say we're friends.

[937] I admire him greatly, and certainly if there had been no fatwa in his reaction to it, that would be the same.

[938] But remember, he's a writer and a very frequent lecturer, essayist, so you know more about a person like that going in than with the average bear.

[939] His business is, to some extent, self -exposure.

[940] as well as storytelling and the imagination.

[941] So he has a book called Joseph Anton, which was a memoir, not just of the fatwa in its aftermath, but of his entire life.

[942] So that was helpful to read, and I read it for a second time to prepare for this piece.

[943] And now I think he resents the idea that he's going to have to do this, but I think it's very likely that he's going to write a shorter memoir about what happened last August.

[944] Joseph Anton was written in the third person, so it's a slightly distanced voice.

[945] And as he told me, this memoir would have to be more microscopic.

[946] He said, when somebody sticks a knife in you, that's not a third -person story.

[947] That's a first -person story.

[948] That's an eye story.

[949] But isn't that interesting?

[950] Because you talk about in the history of writing Midnight's Children, that was one of the evolutions it went through.

[951] It started out in third -person.

[952] That's a very good point.

[953] So Midnight Children is a vast, sprawling novel.

[954] And the speaker of the novel, what gives it its energy is it is in first -person, which you came to after a few drafts.

[955] And it's a person much like him, born just as India becomes independent of Britain.

[956] Born on midnight.

[957] Midnight, August 14th, 15th, 47, which is the instant of India's independence.

[958] And then, of course, horrible things happen.

[959] And Pakistan has created.

[960] It's not about one thing.

[961] There's an everything, a too muchness to that novel.

[962] Just as the story of Joseph Anton is kind of all over the place and inclusive and encyclopedic.

[963] But this thing, I think that he's trying to figure out how to write would be much more focused, shorter, vivid, and direct.

[964] And maybe for the sake of him processing it himself is my guess.

[965] I'd imagine that man learns a lot by writing his story.

[966] God knows the last thing I ever want to do is speak for somebody who knows his mind so well.

[967] Yeah, that's my job.

[968] Yeah.

[969] I'm not bridled with the journalistic integrity that you are.

[970] I can shoot from the hip.

[971] I just have a couple silly fun questions for you.

[972] I am friends with this woman.

[973] I grew up with her.

[974] She's from very modest background.

[975] She went to Harvard Law, and she was top of her class.

[976] And I've been with her on numerous occasions where people ask her where she went to school.

[977] And every time she says Harvard, they go, oh, like, there's such a dismissal.

[978] And I always say to her like, God, not what you imagine when you fantasize about going to Harvard, that everyone's going to be threatened by you saying this and it's just kind of miserable and you'd rather hide it, like unexpected outcome.

[979] But that's a very low price to pay.

[980] and I went to an equally fancy -smansy.

[981] You know, I grew up in one part of Jersey, but then went to this other thing, Princeton.

[982] Princeton, yeah.

[983] And graduated summa cum laude.

[984] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[985] And it was a class shock.

[986] Sure, I bet.

[987] Because you get there, especially then, by the way, because I'm old.

[988] So it was way wider than it is now.

[989] Enricher, probably.

[990] Yes, that was even more of the shock.

[991] I didn't know what that world is about prep schools and kids who drove to college.

[992] and then came back from Christmas vacation with a tan.

[993] Yeah, private jets places instead.

[994] Yeah, and Princeton had these things called eating clubs, which I avoided, like the plague, and it was alarming.

[995] It was alarming.

[996] So my question wasn't even going to be about saying you're from Princeton, but funny, you have a double whammy.

[997] I imagine when you are traveling, right, and someone has no idea who you are, and you start talking, oh, what do you do?

[998] I work in the...

[999] I don't know what...

[1000] Exactly.

[1001] I don't know how you start, like, soft -selling it.

[1002] but ultimately when you say I'm the editor of the New Yorker I don't all the time yeah okay okay but my guess is that is like the apex Harvard response which is like if you say I've been the editor of the New Yorker for 30 years people are like oh it must be so triggering is it that that does happen once in a little bit more even though I go on TV once in a while to yammer about Russia or something that's in the New Yorker.

[1003] There's another editor here at Condi Nass, which is the company that owns all these magazines, that really is truly in the world famous.

[1004] Anna Wintor is actually famous.

[1005] Oh, my God.

[1006] I'm dying to meet her.

[1007] Just dying.

[1008] I've met her.

[1009] And we're friends and we get along.

[1010] I mean, it's quite interesting.

[1011] So she's famous in the way of somebody that's in the movies or she's in the paper all the time and the sunglasses and the devil wears Prada.

[1012] I don't have that.

[1013] I have what I think of as the best form of being a little bit known, I go into my local diner, coffee shop, whatever, and somebody will say to me, I love your podcast.

[1014] And if they're saying it at a certain age, you're probably listening to it on the radio, but okay.

[1015] Sure.

[1016] Or I get stopped on Broadway or something on the way to the gym in the morning and somebody will say, you know, I just want to tell you, I read that piece in the magazine and it was so good, that's perfect.

[1017] And I'm incredibly grateful for that.

[1018] Yes.

[1019] Well, you have the same gift we have, which is you've self -selected your audience.

[1020] It's not like you were cast on some television show where it doesn't really represent who you are.

[1021] The people that are going to know you are people that enjoy the thing you put out.

[1022] The luck is that the New Yorker is owned by a family and a company that, yes, they want to see the New Yorker be successful as opposed to not successful financially.

[1023] But above all, they want it to be great.

[1024] Mm -hmm.

[1025] Mm -hmm.

[1026] Yeah.

[1027] And they don't want to get in the way editorially.

[1028] That is so rare in American journalism that I can't begin to tell you.

[1029] Nobody calls me up, whether they're from the Newhouse family, which owns the New Yorker, or Roger Lynch, who's the CEO of the company, and says, you know, that last piece, it was too tough on such and such and such, and we have a business interest in such and such, or by the way, I kind of like such and such.

[1030] Yes, we want this or this budget discussion.

[1031] Of course it happens.

[1032] We live in the actual real existing world.

[1033] But on the biggest thing of all, we have the material support and above all the kind of editorial spiritual support that is so rare and so valuable that it barely exists elsewhere in the United States, much less than the world.

[1034] So my gratitude and luck are boundless.

[1035] What do you think if there is a most popular misconception about the magazine, what do you think it is?

[1036] I'm imagining everyone in America has an opinion of the New Yorker, and I'm also imagining only 7 % of America has read the New Yorker.

[1037] We live in a country of 320 million people, whatever it is, and our subscription is a million to, of those, certainly in print, maybe if three, four people read those.

[1038] And so if you're lucky, I don't know what our audience would be, but it's not going to be half the country.

[1039] Right.

[1040] I think the biggest curse, it's not a curse, but it's kind of a complication, is that somehow it's exclusive.

[1041] Elitist.

[1042] Fair enough.

[1043] It's a word that we hear all the time, and it's a curse word.

[1044] And there's an image that goes with it in the first issue of the New Yorker in February 1925 had this guy with a top hat and a monocle and he's looking up and he's looking at a butterfly and his name is Eustis Tilly.

[1045] That was meant to be satirical.

[1046] A joke about New York Regency Society snobs and it was meant to be poking fun at the patrician class.

[1047] This guy with his head in the clouds and yeah.

[1048] And then it hardened as like the image of, to some people, of the magazine.

[1049] So this year on the anniversary issue, which has the Rushdie piece in it and much else.

[1050] The Eustace Tilly figure is a dog, just like the dog and the painting over your shoulder.

[1051] Yeah, the regal beast.

[1052] Exactly, although I think it's a beagle, not a boxer, or whatever that is.

[1053] It is true that some pieces are long, and I'm not making any excuses for it.

[1054] I'm proud of it that there are pieces of literary criticism or art criticism or that they're not all pieces about everything else you've ever heard.

[1055] But we also write about pop culture.

[1056] We write about politics.

[1057] We write about the world.

[1058] And, at a high level.

[1059] A high level of accuracy.

[1060] I hope a high level of beauty and humor and all the rest.

[1061] The notion that it's exclusive, that it points to a reader and says, this is not for you, is wrong.

[1062] And I think that's part of why in the last 20 years we've tried also to make the magazine more diverse in every sense.

[1063] If you walked into the New Yorker office in 1965, you wouldn't see anything but white faces.

[1064] You know, and it was awfully proud of publishing James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time.

[1065] But that was exceptional then.

[1066] And it shouldn't be acceptable.

[1067] And we're certainly not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but we want the magazine to be, again, these things sound like cliches lately, but I mean them sincerely inclusive and reflect America in the world more deeply.

[1068] Okay.

[1069] Last question about the New Yorker.

[1070] So you'll be there now for 22 years this year?

[1071] 247 years.

[1072] Yes, I'm sure it feels that way.

[1073] My guess would be that when you got there in 92, it already had that little bit of knee -jerk elitism.

[1074] But my guess, would be it wouldn't have been painted left or right as strongly as it is today.

[1075] Has that evolved and changed?

[1076] I think that's not quite true.

[1077] The magazine, certainly by the Vietnam War, was seen as left of center.

[1078] Progressive, yeah.

[1079] Yes.

[1080] But on the other hand, we're not an opinion magazine.

[1081] It's not the nation, which is a left magazine or the National Review, which is a right magazine.

[1082] Are we perceived as being left of center?

[1083] Yes, and we are.

[1084] But I do think we have readers who are centrist and conservative who read us and appreciate us because of the level of the writing and the level of fact -checking and respectfully disagree with what's written in comment.

[1085] They want to hear the best counter -argument they can hear, and that's where they go to get it.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] Look, I read the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

[1088] I don't read it because I'm agreeing with it.

[1089] I want it to put pressure on what I think.

[1090] Yes.

[1091] And maybe, not very often, but once in a blue moon, it might push me in one direction or another.

[1092] And I say that about a lot of things.

[1093] I think that's called healthy.

[1094] If you just read one thing, that would be like reading Pravda in 1972 in Moscow.

[1095] I do think Vietnam and Watergate, clearly the New Yorker was seen as left of center and that hasn't changed that much.

[1096] We also live in a very politicized time.

[1097] And the Trump era was and is hyper politicized.

[1098] And I think that had to be covered.

[1099] It had to be struggled with, written about, investigated.

[1100] So I make no excuses for that.

[1101] Okay, this is my very last question.

[1102] This would probably be 20 seconds.

[1103] You were childhood friends with Bill Maher.

[1104] I just want to say that.

[1105] I think that's interesting.

[1106] I'm curious if he had the same personality.

[1107] Oh, that's why I asked about Malcolm.

[1108] I'm not asking this in a critical way.

[1109] I'm asking this in a true fascination of the impact of fame on humans.

[1110] I myself experiencing.

[1111] I'm always analyzing like, what is this done to me?

[1112] How delusional am I?

[1113] You know, I'm trying to check in with it.

[1114] And so when I asked you, was Malcolm a devious, playful -eyed character when you met him?

[1115] Yes.

[1116] Or has the confidence of success allowed him to, live out loud in that way.

[1117] I didn't really end that question.

[1118] That's why I asked about him.

[1119] He had that glint in his eye always.

[1120] Okay.

[1121] And Bill Maher, I knew, I used to be in a high school band, sorry to tell you.

[1122] And the drummer where we rehearsed, this guy named Richard Rosenzweig, who's a professional drummer now, the best of us as a musician, lived next door to Bill Maher.

[1123] And Bill Maher's father was a radio guy.

[1124] And Bill, who was slightly older than us, would play basketball with us in his driveway and he was extremely funny he was the wise ass he was the guy that would go up in the high school stage and scandalize the school principal with his jokes about you know the french exchange student whatever the hell it was about where we best friends know by any stretch and what happened was we were friendly and then the thing happens that happens in life you go your separate ways and years pass and then you turn on johnny carson and there's bill mar right yeah it was phenomenal.

[1125] Have you ever done his show?

[1126] I think I did once, yes, ages ago.

[1127] But you got to go out to L .A. to do it.

[1128] Yeah, and that's the deal breaker for you.

[1129] The last time I saw him was, I don't know, six, seven years ago we had lunch here.

[1130] Oh, this is great.

[1131] This is what I'd like to end on.

[1132] Whenever I'm in New York, I am told by New Yorkers how Superior New York is to L .A. And when I try to tell all them, and now I want to tell you, because you were at the reins of popular opinion in New York, this is a one -s -scent.

[1133] fight.

[1134] Everyone in L .A. loves New York.

[1135] I'm going to shock you.

[1136] Okay, shocked me. This whole Woody Allen, I hate L .A. You have to drive.

[1137] There's no sign.

[1138] Uh -uh.

[1139] I really love going to Los Angeles.

[1140] This might be your last statement as the editor of New Yorker.

[1141] Last time was there, because of the pandemic, was to go spend time with Leonard Cohen for a profile that I wrote.

[1142] Oh, wow.

[1143] And I have friends there and I think I'm going to be going soon and I look forward to it.

[1144] I really like Los Angeles.

[1145] Okay, good.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] There's room.

[1148] Maybe it's more mutual than we thought.

[1149] I'm not even pandering.

[1150] I'm actually truthful.

[1151] No, I believe you.

[1152] I believe you.

[1153] You don't find yourself in those conversations in New York?

[1154] Well...

[1155] I've never heard someone from L .A. say they hate New York.

[1156] Not one.

[1157] Time.

[1158] Even people have been mugged there.

[1159] They had a shitty vacation.

[1160] They still...

[1161] Well, New York's great.

[1162] Yeah.

[1163] It's the greatest.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] But boy, you get a New Yorker talking about pizza in L .A. You think it's time to, like, find an octagon.

[1166] All right, well, David, this has been such a pleasure.

[1167] It was really fun.

[1168] It's great to see you guys.

[1169] You're enormously impressive, and you've done an incredible job.

[1170] I don't want people to think I'm going to lead us, but I do fucking live in New Yorker.

[1171] It's so fantastic.

[1172] Oh, it's so good.

[1173] Thank you so much.

[1174] Give me a long article, man. I don't want to commit to a book, and I also don't want to read four pages.

[1175] That's a sweet spot for me. Well, we're serving them up.

[1176] Okay, good.

[1177] All right, I hope everyone enjoys your newest piece on Rushdie.

[1178] It's incredible.

[1179] with everything.

[1180] I hope we get to talk again.

[1181] Anytime.

[1182] This was great fun.

[1183] All right.

[1184] Take care.

[1185] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1186] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1187] We had different weekends, is my guess, you and I. Yeah.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] Tell me about yours.

[1190] I was in bed all weekend.

[1191] All weekend?

[1192] Yeah.

[1193] Because you were sick?

[1194] Yeah.

[1195] I think Aaron is now, too.

[1196] Of course he is.

[1197] So you were just in bed all weekend.

[1198] Did you watch Lawtalee?

[1199] I watched Telly.

[1200] I watched Telly.

[1201] I watched Telly.

[1202] I did make some meals.

[1203] Oh, you did.

[1204] You found the strength in the energy.

[1205] I did.

[1206] Well, it's one of those sicknesses that's like way worse in the morning and at night.

[1207] But the middle of the day is not as bad.

[1208] I do think I made some mistakes, like expended a lot of energy during the day.

[1209] Right.

[1210] Also, my sleep schedule is so fucked From the illness I don't know I think it started when I stayed up till 4 that day Oh, to watch the show Yeah, that was a big accident I did You're responsible It's like drugs You make a choice in the moment And then you pay the price for a few days You do, but it wasn't a choice Okay, so I Smoking like a true addict Listen The sinner Yeah The sinner.

[1211] Isn't that you're like seven years old, eight years old?

[1212] Well, there was season one.

[1213] Yeah, what season are you watching?

[1214] Jessica Beal.

[1215] What season are you on?

[1216] Three?

[1217] Four.

[1218] So the fourth season just came out.

[1219] And it's not like...

[1220] It's an anthology or something?

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] Where each season's completely new.

[1223] Yes, except the detective is the same.

[1224] Oh, great.

[1225] So that part's so fun.

[1226] Wonderful.

[1227] Anyway, first season's incredible.

[1228] And the exact same thing happened the first season, where I started watching it at like eight.

[1229] P .m. Yeah.

[1230] And then it got so creepy that I knew, okay, I have to finish this or I'll never sleep because I'm scared.

[1231] I can't even go to the bathroom.

[1232] Oh.

[1233] So that happened.

[1234] And then second season, third season, I didn't have that same issue.

[1235] They were fine.

[1236] They were good enough.

[1237] Season four came out and I thought the same thing.

[1238] I thought it was going to be like season two or three.

[1239] Oh, I'll watch an episode and whatever.

[1240] Nope.

[1241] It was like season one and I got so scared.

[1242] Same thing around two.

[1243] I was like, oh, no, I got to keep going.

[1244] Oh, wow.

[1245] So I watched till four.

[1246] And that was a week ago.

[1247] And we're still recovering.

[1248] I think so because I didn't sleep till two, the last two nights.

[1249] And I'm sick.

[1250] But also I've been sleeping in.

[1251] So I think it's a bad pattern.

[1252] And then I had a lot of thoughts about sickness.

[1253] Oh, tell them to me. You don't look like you've been sick.

[1254] Oh, that's good.

[1255] Yeah.

[1256] I've been continuing my skin care.

[1257] It's working.

[1258] A lot of people have been so sweet about my skin knowing the journey I'm on.

[1259] Uh -huh.

[1260] And that's nice.

[1261] Well, it looks great, so the journey's over.

[1262] Well, no. Hello, sorry.

[1263] Knock, knock, knock, knock.

[1264] Okay.

[1265] I'm doing okay right now.

[1266] Anyway, when you're sick, you really want to be cuddled.

[1267] Mm -hmm.

[1268] Mm -hmm.

[1269] You really want to be.

[1270] snuggled and held.

[1271] Nurtured.

[1272] Yes.

[1273] Nurtured.

[1274] So I was having these like back and forth thoughts a lot where I was like, like I felt really lonely and I really wanted to be held.

[1275] Uh -huh.

[1276] And then also I was disgusting.

[1277] Sure.

[1278] With the honking and the coffee.

[1279] Some other stuff.

[1280] Well, I don't want to.

[1281] But yeah.

[1282] Okay.

[1283] But you know what's up.

[1284] So.

[1285] Really quick.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] And I just get into it.

[1288] So my version of this thing was an absolute record -setting amount of snot.

[1289] Yeah.

[1290] Did you have that too?

[1291] No, this one wasn't as snotty for me. It wasn't, okay.

[1292] Just normal levels of like cold snot.

[1293] Okay.

[1294] But you had really bad.

[1295] Well, like where I found myself blowing my nose in a way I've never done before.

[1296] Shocked that I didn't like just eject my sinuses at some point.

[1297] Like really, like, oh, I'm covering once I didn't blow.

[1298] And then it just keeps going.

[1299] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] Where is it all at?

[1302] So anyways, okay, so it wasn't that exact version.

[1303] No. But I thought maybe you would have been getting off pervertedly like I was on just the volume.

[1304] I was like, whoa, I'm making a lot.

[1305] No, it wasn't that.

[1306] I mean, it was like, you know, lots of, you know, just bodily stuff.

[1307] And, and like, you know, you kind of want to take up all the bed, but you still want to be held.

[1308] Yeah, yeah.

[1309] Anyway, I just thought, I'm glad I'm alone in a lot of ways because I know when you.

[1310] needs to be around this.

[1311] Okay.

[1312] This is disgusting.

[1313] Oh, I don't, I don't think anyone would think of it's disgusting.

[1314] Oh, okay.

[1315] Maybe it got places.

[1316] And, and, but then it's a juxtaposition because you also want to be so close to someone.

[1317] But you also don't want to get that person sick.

[1318] You know, I'm thinking about all this stuff.

[1319] Like, if I, if there was a person here.

[1320] Yeah, you have the fairy tale version and then you go, well, in reality, my partner would be in the other room trying not to get it.

[1321] Yeah.

[1322] But they still might peek their head in, check in.

[1323] Can I give you something?

[1324] Yeah, that would be nice.

[1325] Did you want me to flush?

[1326] Or did you mean to leave?

[1327] No, I have my own bathroom in this scenario.

[1328] He has his own bathroom and he's not seeing what's happening in my bathroom.

[1329] Okay.

[1330] Well, then he doesn't love you.

[1331] Hey.

[1332] Well, if he's not interested in what's happening.

[1333] Hey, he loves me. Anyway.

[1334] He's just with you because you're gorgeous skin, I think, at that point.

[1335] That, what a horrible.

[1336] tenuous relationship, that would be.

[1337] Well, I'm sorry you felt so crummy.

[1338] That's okay.

[1339] Did you end up watching a lot of stuff, though?

[1340] Yeah.

[1341] What would you watch?

[1342] Do you watch Drive to Survive?

[1343] I know.

[1344] I started it.

[1345] Oh, yeah?

[1346] Uh -huh.

[1347] Yeah, I love it.

[1348] Okay.

[1349] But I decided...

[1350] I didn't care.

[1351] I decided I needed to not watch that.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] Do you finish Ardoch, the Sarah Lawrence?

[1354] Okay, no. Oh, this is...

[1355] What are you doing?

[1356] This is what happened.

[1357] Okay.

[1358] I watched...

[1359] Inside Man. Have you heard of it or seen it?

[1360] What's it about?

[1361] It's on Netflix.

[1362] It's Stanley Tucci.

[1363] The Tuch.

[1364] David Tenet.

[1365] The Ten.

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] Uh -huh.

[1368] And it's about this guy on death row who is a professor in criminology.

[1369] He murdered his wife.

[1370] Okay.

[1371] Now he helps solve cases.

[1372] Procedural.

[1373] But no, it's all ongoing.

[1374] Right.

[1375] Um, but anywho, it is four episodes.

[1376] Only four?

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] That would anger me a little bit.

[1379] Yeah, I need more.

[1380] It's really good.

[1381] It's maddening.

[1382] There's a whole component that's like, why?

[1383] What is happening?

[1384] How did things get so out of control so quick?

[1385] Okay.

[1386] But you also kind of understand it.

[1387] Anyway, um, so I watched all of that, which was good.

[1388] It was great.

[1389] It was good.

[1390] I really liked it a lot.

[1391] Okay.

[1392] And then I watched a, I want to say pathological level of cooking videos.

[1393] Okay.

[1394] I think things are getting bad.

[1395] Uh -huh.

[1396] With your cooking video session?

[1397] Yeah.

[1398] Do you talk to your therapist about your cooking?

[1399] Does that ever come up?

[1400] No. You should bring that up.

[1401] I have bigger fish to fry in therapy.

[1402] Maybe not.

[1403] I know.

[1404] I know.

[1405] I did think something's wrong.

[1406] Some things actually hit new levels We're interviewing someone tomorrow But I am very excited to have in the attic And I'm gonna talk to her about this Okay, about your addiction Yeah Good, good I doubt she'll have any She's not gonna want you to quit her drug supply Well, I wonder if she'll be like You're like me too much No Nope I don't think so I bet I would feel like that.

[1407] You would?

[1408] Yeah.

[1409] I would be a little like, this is a lot.

[1410] But let's drill into that.

[1411] Okay.

[1412] This is the type of thing I work on in therapy.

[1413] So I just want to ask some follow -up questions.

[1414] Okay.

[1415] Could you be specific?

[1416] What is the emotion that would scare you?

[1417] I think it, uh, would it scare me?

[1418] No, not like an actual fear for my life.

[1419] Okay.

[1420] No. So then can you like give me. some adjectives of how you, that would make you feel?

[1421] I would be anxious that this person is so disconnected from reality or something.

[1422] Okay.

[1423] That they think they know me so well.

[1424] Now, I will say, that's not actually what's happening in these cooking videos.

[1425] It is, I love these two people that I watch a lot, a lot, a lot.

[1426] But it's the cook.

[1427] There's something about the cooking that I'm obsessed with.

[1428] It's cathartic.

[1429] Yeah.

[1430] It would watch.

[1431] Watching this, there's something that's happening to my nervous system.

[1432] Sure.

[1433] I mean, this is so embarrassing.

[1434] I've watched all of these videos so many times.

[1435] It's not like I watched the video.

[1436] No. Yeah, you go back and back.

[1437] I rewatch, like it's friends.

[1438] Yep.

[1439] That's when I realize it's a problem that I'm watching it like a sitcom.

[1440] Well, again, though, remember when we heard that people with high anxiety watch the same movies over and over again because they know how they end?

[1441] Yeah, I think it's that.

[1442] Yeah, well, you start with all this, like, randomness, right?

[1443] It's like a little dish of salt.

[1444] What the fuck's that doing?

[1445] And then you got some chopped up chives over here.

[1446] You got all this, like, chaos.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] And then when it gets assembled into a cohesive unit.

[1449] Oh, it's so exciting.

[1450] Right.

[1451] I think it's like it's the many variables that results in one unified safe object.

[1452] That's now delicious.

[1453] Yeah, I mean, also it could be a result of the, But really quick, that's not what we were talking about.

[1454] And if I'm the therapist, I'm going to say, nice way to deflect.

[1455] So we left why you would be nervous about someone who consumed you over and over again, because that's more interesting to me than your obsession with videos.

[1456] Because I think they think they know me much more than they do.

[1457] And then that makes me uncomfortable.

[1458] Well, tell me. And then what?

[1459] Okay, few tears, right?

[1460] One is, so I'll never be what you want me to be.

[1461] Great.

[1462] Okay.

[1463] Okay.

[1464] Also, I don't.

[1465] I don't love an uneven footing where I know nothing about you, but you know so much about me. I like growing on the same level with a person in any relationship.

[1466] I want to everyone to get to know each other on the same level.

[1467] Maybe there's like a control.

[1468] Yeah.

[1469] I guess so.

[1470] Okay.

[1471] So let me just throw something at you right now.

[1472] This didn't occur to me to just now.

[1473] Okay.

[1474] Your muscle memory and your methodology.

[1475] since you were a child, as you've told me, is to be a bit of a chameleon, to study someone else, and to click into their thing a little bit, join their little world or their little culture or their little whatever it is to blend in and assimilate.

[1476] That's where you feel most at home.

[1477] That's what you've practiced the most.

[1478] So now you're starting into some potential friendship or just acquaintanceship where the opposites happened.

[1479] They've studied you and you know nothing about them.

[1480] So you don't know which way to chameleon yourself for them.

[1481] You're not comfortable with the notion that they're going to chameleon to you or that you don't have the details on them so you know how to chameleon.

[1482] I think at the root of this potentially is you don't trust people would like you unless you do your magic act.

[1483] Because mine's a similar thing.

[1484] It's different, but it's the same, which is mine is ultimately, I don't feel worthy of it.

[1485] Yeah.

[1486] I don't feel worthy of the attention.

[1487] I don't feel worthy when the person stops me on the street.

[1488] I feel fraudulent.

[1489] Right.

[1490] I feel in the past like, oh, I'm taking Jason Katham's compliment.

[1491] This is unethical.

[1492] Or I'm taking Mike Judge's compliment.

[1493] Or I'm, you know what I'm saying?

[1494] And those were all kind of defendable intellectual statements, right?

[1495] Like, I'm uncomfortable because what you really love is idiocry, which I didn't make.

[1496] Well.

[1497] You know, or what you really love is parenthood, which I didn't make.

[1498] I can stand on that in my mind as a defense of why I'm uncomfortable in that situation.

[1499] But I think more and more and more, I'm realizing I just have not felt worthy of that.

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] And the more I approach a feeling of worthiness, those interactions have gotten so much easier.

[1502] I'm not deflecting, but I do understand.

[1503] I do real quick, I think part of the reason that when you got a compliment for things you were in, you couldn't take to heart, I think you might, you think of it as like one person's accomplishment, like Jason Katham's accomplishment or or Mike Judge's accomplishment.

[1504] And that's not true.

[1505] Those projects, any project you're a part of is a collective.

[1506] collective.

[1507] It does not become what it is without every single piece.

[1508] I agree with you, but this is why logically I could counter that then.

[1509] Here's how I would counter it is you're not coming up to me and telling me that you loved me in, let's go to prison.

[1510] Well, they hadn't seen it, maybe.

[1511] And why didn't they?

[1512] Because Jason Kadams hadn't taken it to the finish line, nor had Mike Judge.

[1513] Like, the person in charge never took that thing to the zone.

[1514] zone where I would be getting complimented.

[1515] I'm pretty much the same talent level in all these things I'm in, right?

[1516] Like, I'm consistent.

[1517] In fact, I might even be better in let's go to prison than I am in a lot of other things that people would give me a compliment about.

[1518] Right.

[1519] So because I have that data, right, which is like, well, it's not me because I'm in all these other things and you're not saying that it's really, it's them.

[1520] That's why, because they made it successful.

[1521] They're like the thing that took it to the finish line, not me. I'm in all these things.

[1522] Yeah.

[1523] Can you see at least where that made sense to me?

[1524] I do, but I think you didn't fix that issue of understanding that that compliment is real, that you offered something to those projects that only you could offer and you were great in them.

[1525] And that is why people say.

[1526] So today, today I could agree with you.

[1527] But for like 19 years, I couldn't have agreed with you.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] And I guess now this is yours.

[1530] So you can feel it in a way that you can take on like Mike or Jason Catam's.

[1531] But really quick.

[1532] There's even a phase of this that I had a harder time accepting before therapy.

[1533] I had reasons, you know.

[1534] I'm dyslexic, so I can remember a lot of it.

[1535] You know, whatever thing I would have a reason to tell you, I don't really deserve that compliment.

[1536] Yeah.

[1537] I just have this lucky thing.

[1538] whatever the thing whatever back to you you were defrapping you did a good job you did a good job yeah yeah did a good job um but i mean of course from my point of view you're so worthy of listening to over and over again because you're so interesting and you're so honest and you have such integrity and if you were soothing to me nothing weird about that and i have endeavored to talk to you for five years straight right So I'm with them.

[1539] I get it.

[1540] Yeah, that's fine.

[1541] Okay.

[1542] I just, I mean, I'm more just being self -reflective that I can feel.

[1543] I know myself.

[1544] It's an obsession.

[1545] Something's happening.

[1546] We're like, I got to keep watching.

[1547] I got to, I can't turn it off.

[1548] You're self -soothing.

[1549] I am.

[1550] I'm self -soothing with it in a way that's, I feel potentially becoming unhealthy.

[1551] But it is healthy because I'm learning.

[1552] I am Weston.

[1553] I'm not going to do it.

[1554] I am going to do it.

[1555] I took her to Target this weekend.

[1556] Just her and I went to Target.

[1557] And she hit me with that.

[1558] Like now that we've played it for it, she does it.

[1559] And she can do it great because she's a great mimic.

[1560] Like, Kristen.

[1561] And it's her.

[1562] And it's her.

[1563] And she said that out of nowhere.

[1564] She goes, I'm not going to do it.

[1565] I am going to do it.

[1566] And I sent me to the floor.

[1567] Yeah, she texted me. Sometimes she texts me from Kristen's phone.

[1568] Uh -huh.

[1569] And it's always a shock because, you know, Kristen's name comes up.

[1570] Right.

[1571] And then she says, hi, I love you.

[1572] Does she forget sometimes to say it's Delta?

[1573] Yeah.

[1574] Yeah, but I know.

[1575] It's not really Kristen's M .O. to randomly do that.

[1576] So, so we chatted and she said, is your power out?

[1577] I said, no. And she said, oh, finally some good news.

[1578] Oh, but she told me the whole story.

[1579] Yes, and about you and getting up in the night.

[1580] She did.

[1581] Oh, she told me everything.

[1582] Wow.

[1583] Sometimes I don't even know she's paying attention.

[1584] Oh, she knew everything.

[1585] No shit.

[1586] She said, dad, and then my clogs got stuck in the door.

[1587] Oh, of the motorhome.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] I had a little snappy snap.

[1590] Did she mention that?

[1591] Oh, no, she didn't.

[1592] Okay.

[1593] So are we ready for me to walk through?

[1594] So Friday, I don't even know what we do.

[1595] It doesn't matter.

[1596] Going to bed at 10, I want to say 10, 15, the power goes out.

[1597] Crazy rainstorm for anyone who doesn't know.

[1598] And it's not just the rain.

[1599] Wind, like 75 mile over wind.

[1600] Insane.

[1601] And then I had noticed my phone rang a bunch of times, but I looked and it was an, you know, it was like a series of numbers.

[1602] It wasn't in my content.

[1603] text.

[1604] Then right before I go to sleep, I look and there's a text from that number.

[1605] Hey, we got your number from John.

[1606] It's your neighbors across the street.

[1607] Your tree fell into our house.

[1608] We have new neighbors.

[1609] Like maybe, I don't know, a year now, less.

[1610] Yeah, they're really cool.

[1611] It's super duper cool.

[1612] So it's them.

[1613] And I'm meeting like, oh, fuck, man. It's in their house.

[1614] It crashed through.

[1615] Well, this is just, this is the text I see.

[1616] So at 12 .15 a .m. And they're saying it's also, it's blocking the street.

[1617] You can't get through on the off one anymore.

[1618] So I go out there at 12 .15 a .m. I grab my chainsaw and I'm going to clear this road, right?

[1619] So I get suited up.

[1620] It's raining fucking cats and dogs.

[1621] We have no electricity.

[1622] I go out there.

[1623] I start sawing.

[1624] It wakes Jay up.

[1625] He comes out and he basically begs me to please stop.

[1626] Oh, he does?

[1627] Let me add.

[1628] It's an enormous treat.

[1629] It's about, I have a lot of video of it.

[1630] It's about 35 feet tall.

[1631] Oh, my God.

[1632] And it has taken his gutter down.

[1633] It's amazing it didn't go through the windows because parts of it are pushing on the windows, right?

[1634] And I guess in that moment, I wanted to clear the street.

[1635] Now, there's many branches and trunks for this tree.

[1636] And there's, I think I could clear one section so you could at least drive through that.

[1637] But then still, we're going to have this big 30 -foot one that's like looming over their house.

[1638] The whole thing's teetering on our 80 -year -old iron fence.

[1639] Yeah.

[1640] And it's all bent and fucked up.

[1641] Anyways, he's like, you know what?

[1642] Please don't do this.

[1643] Why?

[1644] Because I'm running a chainsaw in the heavy rain with no light.

[1645] Oh, he's protecting you.

[1646] Yes, it made him very nervous, understandably.

[1647] So maybe even thank God he said that because I probably would have kept going, right?

[1648] I'm like, I got to fix this now.

[1649] So I go back inside and it's like I jumped in the swimming pool.

[1650] I'm just completely in his freezing out.

[1651] So I go to sleep, I wake up in the morning.

[1652] I was supposed to host Drive to survive with the boys.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] And that was at 10 a .m. So I hit them in the morning, hey, powers out, can't do drive to survive.

[1655] Yeah.

[1656] And then I just also mention, and also that I have this huge tree down I'm going to have to be working on all morning.

[1657] And the mat immediately was like, let me come help.

[1658] And I was like, no, you don't have to.

[1659] I must say no four times.

[1660] But then Charlie, you know, it's a chain.

[1661] So now Charlie's like, I'm coming over.

[1662] I got.

[1663] And then Ryan's like, be there in 10.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] Fucking, God bless these boys.

[1666] I know, I saw your pose.

[1667] Yeah, I couldn't be more sincere about it.

[1668] I would have not let them help me. Thank God they came over.

[1669] So I had a chainsaw, Charlie had this awesome tree trimmer with this 30 -foot pole that has a chainsaw at the top of it.

[1670] Oh, wow.

[1671] So they come over and we just get to work on this motherfucker.

[1672] And I'm thinking most of the time, like we're going to clear what we can.

[1673] And then there's going to be a point where we're going to have to hire like a real arborist.

[1674] So it doesn't smash their house when I can.

[1675] cut the tree down.

[1676] Oh.

[1677] But as we're clearing out, clearing out, all of a sudden we're just left with this huge one that's looming over their house and I'm like, okay, if I can get a strap around that, hook it to the truck, pull the truck downhill, pull all the pressure downhill, it'll at least cut and fall towards the truck and away from their house.

[1678] Oh my God.

[1679] I don't know when you get the strap over.

[1680] It's like 25 feet in the air.

[1681] Of course Charlie can huck this fucking thing.

[1682] He gets it over.

[1683] It's a whole thing.

[1684] That's like 40 minutes just to get the strap over the perfect spot in the tree.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] Get that hooked up, pull it down.

[1687] and then get the final thing.

[1688] And by fucking God, we had the whole thing done and chopped up and in my trailer and in my truck within probably two and a half hours or something.

[1689] And it turned out to be super duper fun.

[1690] Oh.

[1691] And the man made that cute video that I posted, which you saw.

[1692] Here's the part you're going to love.

[1693] And not to be mentioned neighbor, female neighbor came out right away.

[1694] Charlie's sleeveless.

[1695] He looks, it looks like a joke.

[1696] It looks like we cast.

[1697] I was laughing so hard at that.

[1698] I was like, it's zero degrees.

[1699] Oh, yeah.

[1700] Charlie's not wearing the sleeves.

[1701] He jumped out of his truck when he showed up.

[1702] And I'm like, oh my God, God bless him.

[1703] It's too cold for that look.

[1704] It is.

[1705] It is.

[1706] I'm in many layers in my overalls.

[1707] As you should be.

[1708] I also like if fucking branches hit me, I want to be in my car hearts.

[1709] But no, he looks gorgeous and he happens to also be in the position of operating that long one.

[1710] So shoulders are popping.

[1711] All of a sudden, another neighbor is out.

[1712] I mean, literally, I've never seen anything like it.

[1713] And it's so perfect because we were just talking about how Charlie gets hit on.

[1714] The last fucking fact check.

[1715] Oh, my God.

[1716] So first thing I hear is her saying, oh, my God, you never see arms like that.

[1717] That's impossible.

[1718] No. Oh, my God.

[1719] You guys are like a calendar.

[1720] Monica.

[1721] It went on for 20 minutes.

[1722] I mean, it got to the point where now everyone's now talking about it.

[1723] And she's just out there watching the show.

[1724] And so I'm like, wow, she's fired up.

[1725] She keeps going, look at his arms.

[1726] She can't stop talking about.

[1727] Then she finally goes back in the house.

[1728] And now when we're saw it, and I look, she's in her window with her camera.

[1729] No. Yep.

[1730] Yep.

[1731] Videoing.

[1732] Then opens the window, says some more stuff to Charlie.

[1733] And I was like, she's definitely masturbating.

[1734] Like, she's 100 % masturbating.

[1735] There's just no way around the fact that she's masturbating.

[1736] And also probably documenting it on camera to watch later.

[1737] Oh, Monica, it was in fucking sane.

[1738] To the point where later, so then we all regrouped.

[1739] I'll jump to that's all over.

[1740] We're now talking about it.

[1741] And the boys have now had a chance to talk about, like, imagine that's reversed.

[1742] There's a 50 plus man. There's four chicks working.

[1743] He's out there talking about their bodies.

[1744] Now he's in a window.

[1745] I know.

[1746] It's disgusting.

[1747] You flip it.

[1748] And that's potentially some kind of loss.

[1749] Exactly.

[1750] I wonder if it's still some kind of lawsuit.

[1751] That was talked about.

[1752] That was very much talked about.

[1753] It was such a hilarious sidebar to this whole thing.

[1754] It's so funny we just talked about it because this was by far the apex of what I've ever seen.

[1755] I mean, I think someone was probably pleasuring themselves while staring at Charlie.

[1756] Oh, all of you.

[1757] Again, see, this is back to my theory.

[1758] No, no, no, no. Same group.

[1759] Anyways, it set a new bar for Charlie's fandom.

[1760] Oh, that's amazing.

[1761] I think there'll be a day where I see someone, a woman just started stripping her clothes off in front of her.

[1762] Like, because I didn't really think this is possible.

[1763] Is Charlie the male Rihanna?

[1764] Yeah, yeah.

[1765] Like Scarlett Johansson or Vic Hander.

[1766] No, Rihanna's more.

[1767] Rihanna's more.

[1768] She's so sexy in a way that's like.

[1769] You don't have to tell me. I've been since this started.

[1770] I watched this video, one of the things I watched.

[1771] She was recording a song, and she was dancing, and I was like, God, God, I'm so jealous.

[1772] You don't have any, like, sexual feelings towards her?

[1773] I thought.

[1774] I was like, do I?

[1775] Like, what's happening?

[1776] Do I want to, like, do you want to snuggle her at all?

[1777] I don't.

[1778] I want to be her so bad.

[1779] Yes.

[1780] I want her energy to, like, get in me. Yeah, yeah.

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] Who did I have?

[1783] Oh, I just had the same statement.

[1784] who which is and I guess this is a sign of great self -esteem mostly I just love my life so I don't want anyone else's I don't really there's like all these people I adore in public I wouldn't I don't want to be them right but I was watching Drive to Survive and I was like you know if I had to pick it would be Toto Wolf yeah I mean my God I'm watching yeah he's very cool fucking hair um but okay but I don't so let me clarify okay I don't want Rihanna's life I don't think you do.

[1785] I want to exude her, yeah, Ririness.

[1786] Yeah.

[1787] Yeah.

[1788] Well, you were exuding Riri this weekend.

[1789] It sounds like, although we didn't get into it, but Honest Rias.

[1790] Yeah.

[1791] We're not getting.

[1792] That was only a small part.

[1793] Right, of a much larger story.

[1794] Yeah.

[1795] Okay, but real quick, so I made stuff.

[1796] Oh, tell me what you made.

[1797] This is part of the obsession that I realized was not great because I made so much stuff.

[1798] But, like, I'm only one sick girl.

[1799] Right.

[1800] Not very hungry.

[1801] Not very hungry.

[1802] It can't eat very much at all.

[1803] Uh -huh.

[1804] But making these huge batches.

[1805] Okay.

[1806] Because that's that...

[1807] Your fridge is full of food right now?

[1808] I throw it away.

[1809] That's one way.

[1810] You got to do what you got to do.

[1811] I feel bad.

[1812] That's food waste.

[1813] But...

[1814] I don't know.

[1815] Otherwise, I just keep it in the fridge and then it just sits in the fridge.

[1816] What did you make?

[1817] Well, let's not get bought down in the same process.

[1818] I made pancakes.

[1819] Mm -hmm.

[1820] Anything special about the pancake?

[1821] Yeah, they were so good.

[1822] What made them novel?

[1823] Crispy edges but fluffy inside.

[1824] I don't know how this recipe, this is Allison's recipe.

[1825] Fuck.

[1826] Get ready.

[1827] Do it, do it.

[1828] It won't come.

[1829] Tickle your nose.

[1830] Because I was going to blow right when you do it.

[1831] You see I grabbed a tissue.

[1832] I know.

[1833] I know.

[1834] I got excited.

[1835] It was like a pebble of a. in response.

[1836] I see you wind up for the sneeze.

[1837] I was like, oh, I better grab my tissue.

[1838] That was my chance.

[1839] Did people like that game we played?

[1840] Did anyone talk about it?

[1841] I think I saw a comment or two this morning that had something about blowing the nose.

[1842] Oh, they wanted a pitcher.

[1843] They somehow wanted a pitcher.

[1844] Oh, that's Shania.

[1845] Oh, I'm talking about our game.

[1846] Okay, okay.

[1847] Wow, ding, ding, ding.

[1848] I didn't even know both those were in the same episode.

[1849] They weren't.

[1850] Our game was from a couple times ago.

[1851] Oh, okay.

[1852] No, no, I didn't hear anything about it.

[1853] Okay, dang.

[1854] All right.

[1855] So, pancake, really fluffy, amazing.

[1856] Achoo!

[1857] Okay.

[1858] That's not how they said.

[1859] Bless you, Monica.

[1860] That wasn't me. So, yeah, they were incredible.

[1861] Blueberries?

[1862] No, classic.

[1863] Okay, Trudish.

[1864] They were, they really were so good.

[1865] And, of course, you know, that's another piece of this lonely.

[1866] Back and forth Where I'm like I have all these pancakes And no one to feed them to I'm sorry buddy Is that right So then the next day I made muffins Blueberry I ate half a muffin They were so good But I ate half a muffin And the rest I didn't throw them out But they're sitting there And I'm not gonna eat them I should have brought them to the I also thought Are people gonna be grossed out By my sick food?

[1867] No When you bake, you kill it.

[1868] You're killing terms.

[1869] That's what I figured, but I didn't know how it would go over.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] And then I made matzabal soup.

[1872] Oh, perfect.

[1873] With real stock.

[1874] I made the stock.

[1875] A bunch of chicken bones and stuff?

[1876] Uh -huh.

[1877] Chicken parts.

[1878] Oh, chicken parts.

[1879] Chicken pieces.

[1880] Bone and skin on.

[1881] Anywho, it was a real big cooking.

[1882] Do you think you could make a stock out of ordering from Postmates a 10 -piece nuggets from McDonald's and then just fucking putting them in water and boiling going for a while?

[1883] Would that be a stuff?

[1884] I don't think so because that's cooked.

[1885] Okay.

[1886] And you want to uncooked because you're rendering out.

[1887] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1888] All right.

[1889] So that was my cooking adventure.

[1890] I think because I was sick and lonely, by yesterday night, my fantasies were high.

[1891] They were.

[1892] And I know it's in relation to all of that.

[1893] One, I was in my apartment for two days by myself you know then you start talking to yourself a little you know things start going off the rails yeah yeah yeah and and I just realize the connection to me escaping into fantasy world uh huh for again soothing relief yeah yeah what kind of fantasies I don't know if we need to get into it but most I mean many oh wow But, uh, yeah.

[1894] It's just good to know yourself, you know?

[1895] Yeah.

[1896] See, to recognize the patterns.

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] Okay, well, this is for David Remnick.

[1899] Oh, okay.

[1900] We fucked up his intro and I...

[1901] I know.

[1902] Now we paid him no service in the fact that.

[1903] He'll be fine.

[1904] He's got a lot of...

[1905] He writes about people.

[1906] Yeah.

[1907] We're talking about people.

[1908] Yeah.

[1909] So Malcolm Gladwell.

[1910] He said Malcolm did a piece on a dog on death row.

[1911] yeah he did it's called that that turned out to be true that checks out it's called it's called the howl of the doomed oh great name it's the washington post and it was july 26 1993 oh my god a year of my graduation hackensack new jersey and you should read it you know you the general you can you send that to me right now do you have that capability i do want to read that i sure do i want to read it out loud for the listener.

[1912] Oh like we did Taylor Swift Her speech.

[1913] College speech.

[1914] Yes.

[1915] Commencement speech.

[1916] Sometimes, man, the arm juries really stick by some shit.

[1917] Yeah, they wade through some some shit.

[1918] But I think it's fun.

[1919] Okay.

[1920] You know what's amazing.

[1921] I never even thought of this.

[1922] What?

[1923] The way, don't move.

[1924] In fact, I'm going to okay, fuck, I'm going to get a picture.

[1925] Oh my God.

[1926] Because I'm going to say it but it's not gonna hit home as much as it will if I do this.

[1927] I'm scared.

[1928] Okay, now I'm gonna send this to you.

[1929] Okay.

[1930] See, now we're really sending each other a lot of stuff.

[1931] It's really slowed down.

[1932] Tell me when it comes through.

[1933] We're looking at the same thing.

[1934] Okay.

[1935] Oh, my God.

[1936] So what do you think your sweater says?

[1937] That's.

[1938] Oh, to me it says farts.

[1939] Oh!

[1940] Because the microphone's covering.

[1941] the C in facts and it looks like you're wearing a sweater that says farts You would read it as farts Yes, F -A you know microphone T -S Fill in the blank Yes and what an amazing sweater that would be if it was that elegant and designery like yours but it said farts Yeah oh man That'd be great I saw someone recently it was sweatpants Like nice ones and it said farts across the butt It did Wow Someone's already ahead of me. Oh, man. Because that's something Rie -Ree might wear and pull off.

[1942] Well, she would pull it off.

[1943] Yeah, a sweater.

[1944] No, she's like, she's really fashion.

[1945] She's really farts.

[1946] She's, well, she.

[1947] Boy, I'm so into your sweater saying farts.

[1948] Although Fats is also ding, ding, ding.

[1949] Oh, yeah.

[1950] Yeah, Fatch.

[1951] Fatchys.

[1952] Mm -hmm.

[1953] Someone posted the other day a picture of a baby in the Natchie's onesie, which was cute.

[1954] Yeah, the fat Natchie's onesy.

[1955] Yeah.

[1956] It's been a while.

[1957] I saw that.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] Oh my God, we haven't talked about Fat Natchy's in forever.

[1960] It has been a second.

[1961] They're still going strong.

[1962] Yeah.

[1963] They're still good.

[1964] They're still there.

[1965] Okay.

[1966] You mentioned the Ragen Cajun and his wife.

[1967] Just so people know, the Rage and Cajun is James Carville.

[1968] Carville.

[1969] Yike.

[1970] Always forget his name.

[1971] I love that, dude.

[1972] He's a Southern.

[1973] Raging Cajun.

[1974] I mean, it says it all in his nickname.

[1975] If you don't know him, he's a political consultant author who's strategized for a candidates for public office.

[1976] He's even been in movies.

[1977] I think he was in Wag the Dog or something.

[1978] He's been in movies.

[1979] It says occasional actor.

[1980] Mm -hmm.

[1981] And he's great.

[1982] Very charismatic.

[1983] Six -two.

[1984] Is he that tall?

[1985] Mm -hmm.

[1986] I'd love to have the Raging Cajun on.

[1987] Can we put it on the list?

[1988] Put it on the list.

[1989] Mary Madeline.

[1990] She was under Reagan.

[1991] And they're still married.

[1992] And campaign director to Bush.

[1993] Yeah.

[1994] Since 93.

[1995] Oh, my God.

[1996] The year of my graduation.

[1997] The year that Malcolm wrote that fucking, oh my God.

[1998] God, that is big, huge year.

[1999] Duck, Doc Goose.

[2000] I was six.

[2001] Ding, ding, ding, ding, you were six.

[2002] Oh, yeah.

[2003] That was more of a duck, duck, dog.

[2004] Okay, has anyone been killed playing cricket?

[2005] Yeah.

[2006] Some people have.

[2007] How?

[2008] Hit by a ball.

[2009] Nope.

[2010] Hold on.

[2011] I have so many tabs.

[2012] My God.

[2013] I also want to put out in the universe.

[2014] If anyone in Fernando Alonzo's world Listen to this show and can penetrate and get to him He's who I think I want to interview the most performing one Yes Even though my driver's Max Verstappen Fernando is now going to be 42 this year And in this season of Drive to survive We hear from him a lot And he's so interesting He's like listen stories have to have a good guy And a bad guy And I am the bad guy Yeah Sexual Exactly I'm like I want to talk to this bad guy, you bad boy.

[2015] That's a ding, ding, ding for something we got to talk about.

[2016] Okay.

[2017] Later.

[2018] Okay.

[2019] Okay.

[2020] This man died.

[2021] He was killed by a cricket ball, and he was buried in 1764.

[2022] Oh, my goodness.

[2023] Okay.

[2024] 1764.

[2025] But then there's some others.

[2026] This other guy was struck on the head by a ball.

[2027] That was 1870.

[2028] That's before we were a country, by the way.

[2029] Yeah, but India was around.

[2030] I know.

[2031] That's just wild.

[2032] Oh, this guy This guy died This one guy Oh, he's just a cricket player Died of a stroke Okay, that's not The Sunstroke There's one that died of a sunstroke Oh, on the field That doesn't surprise me Because they play that game for like two weeks And it's so hot in India Yeah, in June in 1881 It was really hot Oh my God We lost him from Sunstroke Well one of this Yeah suddenly collapsed while batting There's a lot There's 19.

[2033] Oh, my God.

[2034] Or 20 or 21 or something.

[2035] I told you.

[2036] What?

[2037] I told you my cricket experience.

[2038] No. I hate to say anything disparaging about it because it's obviously a beautiful.

[2039] Yeah, my dad loves it.

[2040] And I want to honor that.

[2041] But we went.

[2042] We were in Australia and we decided at some point to go to a cricket game by family and I, my mom and Barton.

[2043] Uh -huh.

[2044] I don't know how or why.

[2045] But by God, Monica, they stopped and all the players sat down and drank tea.

[2046] Oh, yeah.

[2047] I love that.

[2048] And I was like...

[2049] I'm drinking tea right now.

[2050] I know, but I wouldn't buy a ticket to watch you.

[2051] Well, you, but we're best friends.

[2052] Watching, sitting in a stadium watching people enjoy a tea for a long time, I was like, this is madness.

[2053] I love that.

[2054] You do.

[2055] Yeah.

[2056] Okay.

[2057] Well, that's why it's for a lot of people.

[2058] Maybe that's your Indian roots coming through.

[2059] I think it is.

[2060] Because we drink tea at my house, you know?

[2061] Yeah.

[2062] It's just the notion of like going to spectate and run.

[2063] watching people take a long break to drink tea seem crazy coming from my culture where it's got like even baseball's too slow for me yeah right oh yeah and if the players like if they brought up folding tables and they had a little buffet and ate barbecue in the middle you'd be like what the fuck is guys schedule your fucking lunch for another time yeah but i guess in their defense are playing for like 20 hours that game yeah all right that was my i was a little shook i get oh god everyone's drinking tea now.

[2064] Did they pass out something of the audience?

[2065] Of course not, no. Oh, it's a bummer.

[2066] Yeah.

[2067] Were you going to say something wrong?

[2068] Oh, I thought you were going to say something.

[2069] You're going to make it a choke, Joe.

[2070] It was a little a choke.

[2071] Oh, okay.

[2072] He's doing his puns.

[2073] Why?

[2074] Your dad, a choke.

[2075] Ashok.

[2076] Shook.

[2077] He said he was shook.

[2078] I didn't love that.

[2079] Well, he knew better.

[2080] Well, he made a noise that I knew he was going to say something.

[2081] Uh -huh.

[2082] It was an honest.

[2083] of him because he likes cricket.

[2084] I know.

[2085] I see that.

[2086] Okay, I'll leave it.

[2087] I wouldn't have brought it out for any other shows.

[2088] I'll leave it.

[2089] I'll leave it.

[2090] Oh my God.

[2091] You just can't help it with those puns.

[2092] I understand.

[2093] You got it.

[2094] I know.

[2095] And I don't.

[2096] It's like Ricky's acronym.

[2097] It is.

[2098] Yeah.

[2099] It's like you have that gift or you don't.

[2100] Gift and curse.

[2101] Okay.

[2102] The top sports in the world.

[2103] Number one, soccer.

[2104] 3 .5 billion.

[2105] Mm. Two.

[2106] Cricket.

[2107] Really?

[2108] 2 .5 billion.

[2109] Really?

[2110] I mean, of course I know all of India, but I didn't really.

[2111] And British, like British, yeah.

[2112] Yeah, okay.

[2113] I wonder what the top play, Robbie Rob, will you find out the top paid cricket player?

[2114] Oh.

[2115] I'd be curious.

[2116] Because you know what I started watching and watched the first, oh, I was watching the first episode when the power went out on Friday night.

[2117] Dingles, Full Swing, which is also made by that box -to -box or whatever their name is.

[2118] Oh, cool.

[2119] That makes, make her break and drive to survive.

[2120] Oh, is this a tennis one?

[2121] No, that's also great.

[2122] This is a golf one.

[2123] And I can't tell you how uninterested I am in golf.

[2124] But I thought, you know what?

[2125] These motherfuckers have earned my trust.

[2126] And sure enough, halfway through, I'm like, I'm, this is awesome.

[2127] Yes.

[2128] Oh, my God.

[2129] They have hacked.

[2130] They are batting.

[2131] They're so good.

[2132] It's crazy.

[2133] All right, most paid guy.

[2134] Verrat Koli.

[2135] They do the monthly salary.

[2136] Okay.

[2137] $690 ,000 a month.

[2138] Oh, that's good.

[2139] That's not a, not for the second biggest sport in the world.

[2140] Yeah, 8 .2 million a year.

[2141] If they, if he plays 12 months a year, think about the other, those soccer contracts are 500, 600 million.

[2142] The football contracts are almost a billion.

[2143] Indians always get the shaft.

[2144] That's what I'm arguing here.

[2145] Yeah, top soccer.

[2146] Is it in dollars, though?

[2147] He converted it.

[2148] Yeah, I think it was converted.

[2149] By the way, it was from GQ.

[2150] Oh, big update.

[2151] Yeah.

[2152] Physical 100.

[2153] It concluded.

[2154] Okay.

[2155] We got to the end.

[2156] No spoilers.

[2157] I want everyone to know that with the help of Lincoln, she was running the clicker that you got me. Ding, ding, ding.

[2158] We watched the pilot again, and my claim wasn't that crazy.

[2159] We counted with the clicker, 1005 hellos in the pilot.

[2160] That's insane.

[2161] Let me see.

[2162] I'm pulling up the picture.

[2163] Yes, 105, and I sent it to you guys.

[2164] So I wasn't wrong.

[2165] You were.

[2166] It was an insane amount of hellos.

[2167] I know.

[2168] Okay.

[2169] Number three is field hockey.

[2170] Nope.

[2171] Yeah.

[2172] 2 .2 billion.

[2173] It is not.

[2174] It is.

[2175] I mean, yes, it is.

[2176] I mean, yes, it is, but it is not.

[2177] Dax, this is like the thing with the, no, no. You have to under, you're living in an insular world.

[2178] I think they're including hockey in that, too, though.

[2179] Regular hockey.

[2180] It says, Specifically field.

[2181] I've seen a list that has three is hockey.

[2182] Well, they just don't want to ride it.

[2183] Okay.

[2184] They got lazy.

[2185] Four is tennis.

[2186] Five volleyball.

[2187] This list.

[2188] Can I just...

[2189] I'm really scared right now.

[2190] Because I can feel your temperature flaring.

[2191] What site is this from?

[2192] Sport for business.

[2193] I got world atlis .com with the same list.

[2194] Same list.

[2195] Thank you.

[2196] It's funny, how do you measure a fan?

[2197] It's just like what people play or watch?

[2198] Do we know?

[2199] No, this is no. This is watch.

[2200] Okay.

[2201] This is biggest.

[2202] More people watch volleyball than Formula One.

[2203] The world's most watch sports.

[2204] As of 2017.

[2205] Okay.

[2206] So maybe Formula One made its way up.

[2207] Oh, you're going to hate number six.

[2208] Oh, God.

[2209] I see it.

[2210] Where are we at?

[2211] We're at four.

[2212] So hold on, let me, I'm going to say it was soccer, cricket, field hockey, volleyball.

[2213] Slash hockey.

[2214] Tennis is four.

[2215] Tennis is, well, but field hockey was three.

[2216] Yes.

[2217] Tennis.

[2218] Volleyball.

[2219] Okay.

[2220] We're at five.

[2221] Five was volleyball.

[2222] Yeah, let's say.

[2223] Six is table tennis.

[2224] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, not even on TV.

[2225] Yes, because it was started in China.

[2226] Oh, okay.

[2227] So all the Chinese.

[2228] or all.

[2229] Yeah.

[2230] That helps.

[2231] That's $2 billion or whatever they.

[2232] Okay, seven baseball.

[2233] Which I'm actually surprised.

[2234] I'm surprised that's about Formula One.

[2235] I've got basketball over baseball.

[2236] Oh, you do?

[2237] I have basketball at nine.

[2238] I have seven baseball, eight golf, nine basketball, $400 million.

[2239] 10 NFL.

[2240] I don't have Formula One on here at all.

[2241] Do you?

[2242] Wow.

[2243] No. The end of the list is slightly different.

[2244] I don't believe that.

[2245] It's an international.

[2246] Oh, boy.

[2247] Anyhow.

[2248] Okay.

[2249] Oh, my God.

[2250] Volleyball?

[2251] Table tennis.

[2252] What do they mean?

[2253] Indoor, outdoor beach?

[2254] Maybe all.

[2255] Okay.

[2256] That was a tough list.

[2257] The popularity of the sport has been evenly distributed around the world, which accounts to its fan base of 900 million around the world.

[2258] It was introduced in the Olympic Games back in 64, and its beach variation was a real Kickstarter for its rapid.

[2259] growth and popularity around the world.

[2260] Oh, wow.

[2261] Okay.

[2262] So golf, what's interesting about the full swing dock is it happens to be being made in the same time frame that, you know, the UAE or Saudi Arabia has started their own golf.

[2263] Do you know this whole controversy?

[2264] No. No. They have started their own golf tour.

[2265] Mm. And they are paying like 4X.

[2266] Oh, my God.

[2267] The amount of money these top dogs have been making.

[2268] poach them and it's like a big uproar so even in the dock in the where i got before the power went out uh phil mickleson had won the previous year's pGA tour uh -huh he's not there to compete this year because he's in fucking saudi no yes and people are piss and they're like sell out so they're oh shit they're coming in hard with billions of dollars to just take the whole tour away they should pay these cricket players instead well they don't seem to they don't care i don't No, they want golf.

[2269] Isn't that wild, though, that, like, that could happen?

[2270] That is.

[2271] Like, what have they decided they wanted football?

[2272] That's her pained Tom Brady.

[2273] And they're just so fucking pain.

[2274] Yeah, Brady a billion dollars to play.

[2275] Yeah, that gets really tricked me. Like, where, what's all?

[2276] We can't say much.

[2277] Why?

[2278] Because we went to Spotify?

[2279] Yeah.

[2280] No, Spotify is not Saudi Arabia.

[2281] How dare you?

[2282] No, I don't mean that way.

[2283] Saudi Arabia is doing some bad shit Here's what I thought I thought everyone has an opinion What they would do until they're offered a ton of money I guess I guess that's what I was thinking Yeah I mean I'd probably do it Yeah but like It's bad Yeah it's just party you would go like Well I'm a golfer And they're offering me I'm gonna make as much money as I can Although how much money do you Honestly At this point I know, but I...

[2284] They make so much money, don't they?

[2285] They do.

[2286] Here.

[2287] Yep, yeah.

[2288] Then that, I think...

[2289] Well, that was another confusing thing about full swing.

[2290] They're showing two guys who I don't, I've never heard of.

[2291] I know, I hear of the top four or five golfers, I feel like.

[2292] I know a handful of them.

[2293] I've not heard of these other two guys.

[2294] Now, mind you, one of them's won three of the four Masters tournaments or whatever, the big dogs.

[2295] They're flying on a private jet everywhere they go.

[2296] And I'm like, how much fucking money is in the sport?

[2297] F1 drivers don't, like a couple of F1 drivers.

[2298] fly private to races.

[2299] Most don't.

[2300] Right.

[2301] The football players don't.

[2302] Like, how much are they making that they're flying private everywhere?

[2303] These guys even flew private just to go play one round of golf in another state in preparation that there was going to be a match the following week.

[2304] What?

[2305] Yeah.

[2306] On the top paid golfers.

[2307] Like Phil Mickelson would be the highest from last year.

[2308] Yeah, he's 138 million.

[2309] For the year?

[2310] Or just lifetime?

[2311] Oh, let me see.

[2312] No, 2022.

[2313] In 2020, oh, but...

[2314] No, no, no, I'm sorry.

[2315] Hold on.

[2316] Okay, okay.

[2317] Hold on.

[2318] Just give me some.

[2319] Slow down.

[2320] The Upstart series led by Greg Norman and financed by Saudi Arabia, 622 billion sovereign wealth fund is a product that speaks for itself.

[2321] Whoa.

[2322] Holy shit.

[2323] Whoa.

[2324] On course earnings.

[2325] Phil Mickelson.

[2326] Mickelson might have lost sponsors and went on a four -month self -imposed lapse following the controversial comments.

[2327] Oh, this is Wally's working with Saudi Arabia.

[2328] He came out as the richest athlete on the planet in 2022.

[2329] Whoa.

[2330] 130 million this year.

[2331] Oh.

[2332] Oh, who, who, who.

[2333] Wow.

[2334] Off course earnings 36 million.

[2335] Wow.

[2336] Wow.

[2337] So 170 million bucks he made.

[2338] Well, no. It's 102 million on course.

[2339] Oh, I see.

[2340] And then that 30 for endorsements.

[2341] Whoa.

[2342] That's so mega.

[2343] Dustin Johnson, 97.

[2344] 97 million?

[2345] What are we?

[2346] I was watching that thing with the Jets and I'm like, are that many people watching golf that I just don't know about?

[2347] Or is the attendance of these things so high that they're, where is all this money coming from?

[2348] Tiger is 68 million.

[2349] And not even finishing in the top.

[2350] But he's, it says this is, this is the first one on the list.

[2351] He's five who's loyal to the original PG8.

[2352] tour.

[2353] He's staying on the PGA.

[2354] Good for him.

[2355] He made $68 million.

[2356] But he already has a billion dollars.

[2357] So, like, you're not going to tempt him.

[2358] But how, but even if these others are still.

[2359] You're not saving until you get a billion.

[2360] Don't you dare.

[2361] I'm terrified.

[2362] I'm scared.

[2363] Now that we're living up to one.

[2364] I'm scared.

[2365] I'm scared.

[2366] Now that we're living up to 150, we do need more.

[2367] Yeah.

[2368] All right.

[2369] Grateful you got that billion when you're 140 years old.

[2370] It would only be worth about 10 million Oh my God In 21, 23 All right, audience of the New Yorker 1 .2 million Is there circulation?

[2371] Total circulation Oh, that was 2019, but Yeah, what if Saudi Arabia wants to buy that outfit?

[2372] They'll sell.

[2373] Everyone would sell.

[2374] Not me. No. What if they offered us $1 billion to do the pod?

[2375] Oh, of course.

[2376] Of course.

[2377] Of course I would.

[2378] But what Americans get to listen?

[2379] Well, so that's the thing, I guess, sure.

[2380] Why wouldn't they?

[2381] Right.

[2382] That you could watch these golf.

[2383] There's no way they're just like, they bought it to have it only in their country and no one else could see it.

[2384] So I guess if you're Phil Mickelson or any of these people, you're like, look, you turn on the TV and watch me golf.

[2385] That's my obligation to you.

[2386] Why do you care where I'm at?

[2387] Yeah.

[2388] But I could justify us because then we talk about liberal stuff and then we could.

[2389] Infiltray?

[2390] Yeah.

[2391] We have to live there in this scenario?

[2392] Yeah.

[2393] We do?

[2394] Oh, then no. Yeah, yeah.

[2395] There's literally not enough money.

[2396] I mean, if it's a billion dollars, you get like a private plane and you're...

[2397] Okay, they fly us four times a week for our guests.

[2398] And then they fly the gas.

[2399] Everyone's on a 747.

[2400] Or you live in England or something.

[2401] And then we've got to do all the interviews.

[2402] The whole point of a billion dollars is so I can make that house what I want to make it.

[2403] So no. Yeah.

[2404] Okay.

[2405] Well, we refuse your office.

[2406] Just if you're listening Saudi Arabia Well, they do They refuse your office I didn't refuse All right, I guess Dax and Rob Listen, two years Two years Two years a billion Yeah Yeah, I would God, that's so shitty I know That's so I hate myself I do too I do too Money's a powerful It is And it's stupid It's so stupid.

[2407] After your needs are met, it's stupid.

[2408] Yeah, but my needs aren't met yet.

[2409] Right.

[2410] Mine aren't.

[2411] And I still would.

[2412] And it's so stupid.

[2413] You would.

[2414] I wouldn't, because my family wouldn't want to go.

[2415] I wouldn't do anything that my family wouldn't want to do.

[2416] Although that'd be kind of interesting for the girls to, like, have two years in Saudi Arabian school.

[2417] I'm nervous.

[2418] I don't, I have like a cursory knowledge of what life is like for a girl in Saudi Arabia.

[2419] And I could be wrong.

[2420] So I don't really want, I don't want to do the thing Rami would be bummed on doing.

[2421] Yeah, this is true.

[2422] But that's not something I'm aiming to do is to raise two girls and somebody.

[2423] They'd have to go to some sort of consulate school.

[2424] I mean, I would have to, like, yeah.

[2425] But yeah, I agree.

[2426] I mean, that's why I don't want to go there or give money because I'm worried.

[2427] Because you're co -signing on MBS is MBS2 murdering Kachogi.

[2428] Right.

[2429] We can't go.

[2430] That makes it real murky.

[2431] I'm not going.

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] We'll get a billion dollars another way.

[2434] Okay.

[2435] All right.

[2436] Well, I guess we'll start playing numb.

[2437] Field hockey.

[2438] Yeah.

[2439] Second biggest sport in the world.

[2440] Third.

[2441] Third, sorry.

[2442] Might as well make it fucking first.

[2443] I mean, it's so preposterous.

[2444] Rob, will you type in world's highest paid field hockey athlete?

[2445] What if we find out they're making like $300?

[2446] I hope they are.

[2447] Sure.

[2448] Fuck it.

[2449] I don't care.

[2450] It's not coming out of money.

[2451] I'm sad about the cricket players.

[2452] They're.

[2453] Yeah.

[2454] That didn't shock me, though.

[2455] I know.

[2456] Yeah.

[2457] You know why?

[2458] Because they're willing.

[2459] They're brown.

[2460] Yeah.

[2461] And they're also.

[2462] So they don't know about saying no. Well.

[2463] They're just going to take it.

[2464] No, Indians like to say no. I think it's more about...

[2465] Not money.

[2466] Like they want it.

[2467] I think it's more about...

[2468] It's kind of like when we got in a box office.

[2469] Yeah.

[2470] If you're only charging $2 a ticket, it's going to be hard to beat Top Gun.

[2471] That's in theaters where tickets are $16.

[2472] Yeah.

[2473] So if, you know, if half or more of the population that consumes the product is in a lower income brat.

[2474] That's what's going to happen.

[2475] It's just a marketplace.

[2476] This doesn't even, they don't even have salaries on it.

[2477] There's no such thing.

[2478] I have a Ziproker.

[2479] Field hockey player.

[2480] There's not even one known field hockey player, but somehow that's the.

[2481] ZipRecruiter says their salaries are as high as $72 ,000.

[2482] Zippercru.

[2483] So weird.

[2484] Why is Zipar?

[2485] I guess you can use Zipater to recruit a player.

[2486] It's hockey.

[2487] It's combining it with hockey.

[2488] Okay.

[2489] Conter McDavid is $16 million.

[2490] Okay.

[2491] Yeah, hockey players make plenty.

[2492] I've seen them on the northern lakes of Canada.

[2493] They're doing great.

[2494] You were closing things up?

[2495] Yeah.

[2496] I love you.

[2497] I love you.

[2498] Yeah, that was so fun.

[2499] I love this job.

[2500] I'll do it for free.

[2501] But I'll also do it for billions in North Korea.

[2502] Yes, I'm going to North Korea.

[2503] Kim Jong -un, if you're listening, we will take our show.

[2504] We'll exclusively interview North Koreans in a language we don't understand more.

[2505] Can we speak?

[2506] For a billion dollars.

[2507] We'll learn.

[2508] I won't even learn.

[2509] I'm not even going to commit to that.

[2510] I'll just, I'll move to North Korea.

[2511] I go for one.

[2512] Sometimes five times one month, though.

[2513] Five episodes.

[2514] From North Korea.

[2515] We'll do it.

[2516] We're in.

[2517] For a billion each for all three of us.

[2518] Three million all in for five shows recorded in North Korea.

[2519] And I want to bring like Chuck Norris or somebody to get me out.

[2520] If shit goes sideways.

[2521] Seriously.

[2522] We're going to need some.

[2523] We're going to need some.

[2524] Oh, we'll bring.

[2525] Charlie.

[2526] Yes, and everyone's just to be staring and pointing, jerking off and fucking tickling their, tickling their noses.

[2527] All right.

[2528] I love you.

[2529] I love you.

[2530] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2531] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2532] Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry .com slash survey.