The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett XX
[0] Julian Hearn, the founder of Heel.
[1] Heel is a company that's very close to my heart, and anybody that knows me knows how much fuel I consume.
[2] If you don't know Hewle, and you've been living under a rock, Hewle is essentially a meal in a bottle.
[3] And because I live a sort of a very busy life, shall I say, I don't have much free time.
[4] So I don't spend a lot of time cooking, going to restaurants and things like that.
[5] So having a Heel in my bag at all times means that I can get all of my nutritional needs while still focusing and getting the most out of my day.
[6] I've been so impressed by Huell, so impressed.
[7] And so I was overwhelmed with excitement when I found out that I'd be sitting down with Julian to understand the brand.
[8] It's a great, great product, but it's also a great, great business.
[9] In fact, it's one of the UK's fastest growing business.
[10] And I think this year they're on track to make about 45 million in revenue.
[11] And that's in their fourth year.
[12] When I look at Huell, I see so many small touches of genius.
[13] So I've been so incredibly excited to meet the man behind the brand to understand how many of those things were intentional or how many of those things were just luck.
[14] My suspicions would tell me it was the former.
[15] In this conversation, I'm not just interested in the business.
[16] I'm not just interested in the revenue and I'm not just interested in the product.
[17] I'm interested in the entrepreneur, his personal life, his personal struggles, his personal issues, his personal relationships.
[18] And I think he reveals some things that even caught me by surprise.
[19] And I have no doubt, no doubt that this conversation will catch you by surprise too.
[20] Without further ado, this is Stephen Bartlett and this is a diary of a CEO.
[21] And today I'm joined by Julian Hearn.
[22] I hope nobody's listening.
[23] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
[24] Julian, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me today.
[25] It's an absolute privilege to me because as I've said to you, and I hope people know that this isn't bullshit, I consume a lot of your product.
[26] I think it was built perfectly for somebody like me who's time poor, want something that tastes good and wants to also maintain their health while they're traveling and busy and thinking about a lot of other things.
[27] So I guess the first thing I have to say is thank you for creating Huell.
[28] And secondly, can you give me a little bit of a brief intro as to how Huell came about, but also how you came about as the entrepreneur you are today?
[29] How I came about as an entrepreneur, I think it was really a need -smust situation that I'd been, I was 37 and working in London, three hours of commute each way, leaving the house at sort of half -six in the morning, getting home at half -six and night.
[30] It was a long old day, and me and my wife were trying to have a baby, and we'd had a few miscarriages.
[31] And so I which is not the hotbed of great places to work.
[32] So I was head of marketing for a company in London.
[33] There was no alternative.
[34] And luckily, I bumped in some guys doing some affiliate marketing.
[35] They were earning some mega money and working from home in their PJs.
[36] And I was thinking, hold on the minute, this seems pretty clever.
[37] They were like me. You know, they're normal guys.
[38] I don't think I'm particularly outstanding in anything in particular.
[39] And I just thought, wow, if they can do this, why can't I do this?
[40] so I just spent the next year practicing learning in my bedroom of how to do this sort of stuff and then after about a year of earn a little bit of money on the side I thought I could do this, said to my wife, right, give me six months, we've got enough money in the bank, I'm going to start.
[41] So started a company three months later.
[42] I was earning more money than I was as a full -time job and then three years later I sold that business.
[43] And that was an affiliate marketing business?
[44] Correct, yeah.
[45] Was that your first sort of foray into being an entrepreneur?
[46] Yeah, apart from it.
[47] My mom found a photo of me when I was eight selling her plants or a stool out of the front of the garden.
[48] So when I was eight, I did.
[49] And then the gap was nearly 30 plus years until I did anything real.
[50] But, yeah, I probably would still be in that corporate job if that hadn't have happened.
[51] Because, you know, when you're, when you're, I was earning decent money, I suppose, I was a corporate person.
[52] But I never really thought, because I didn't have any, I don't know, role models or anybody else that I knew that had run their own business and be successful.
[53] So I just, you know, went the sort of corporate route after leaving university.
[54] So I must have had a little bit of an entrepreneurial bug But it wasn't obvious until that point Were you studious?
[55] Were you good in school when you were younger?
[56] I left score at 16 with pretty poor GCSCs to be honest How poor?
[57] Pretty poor in a sense of I got two E's English Right, okay Can't spell like I think we had a little chat earlier I'm not very good at spelling I think I got a couple of C's and maybe one B Something like that, pretty pretty poor GCSEs And so I left score 16 So no, at the school I went to, there was, I don't think the teachers wanted to be there and the kids certainly didn't want to be there.
[58] So there was not a lot of ambition.
[59] I didn't know anybody went to university, didn't know anybody who did A -levels.
[60] So I just left and got a job like everybody else.
[61] And there's only three years later, one of my girlfriend said, what are you doing?
[62] I was digging holes in a road for two years.
[63] That's what I was doing, working, taking holes.
[64] And she said, what are you doing?
[65] You're too bright to do this.
[66] So at that point, that's when I went back to college.
[67] And then, so you start this affiliate marketing business, you sell it.
[68] How old are you when you sold it?
[69] 40 years old.
[70] 40.
[71] And so how quickly after selling that business did Huell begin?
[72] Probably nearly two years later.
[73] Two years later.
[74] And tell me about how that came about.
[75] So I took a bit of time off.
[76] Luckily, we did have a child.
[77] And so I had no reason to work.
[78] I had enough money to survive on and to live on.
[79] So I had no reason to work.
[80] So I took a good year out, if not longer.
[81] But then you get itchy feet.
[82] You can't sit.
[83] home.
[84] I think you've got to have a work life balance works both ways.
[85] Like people usually work too much.
[86] They need to have more free time.
[87] When you've got 100 % free time, you need a little bit of work in there.
[88] So I wanted to find something that I was going to be passionate about.
[89] I was going to be proud of.
[90] Something that can be busy three days a week.
[91] Because the first company I built and sold, I wasn't really proud of it.
[92] You know, you wouldn't want to go down the pub and talk about it with your mates.
[93] It was something that generated cash, but it wasn't something you would be proud of to wear a T -shirt sort of thing.
[94] So I wanted something I was going to be into, proud of, something that was going to be beneficial to the world.
[95] So I started another company called Body Hack and Hewls span out of that.
[96] And so why did Julian make Heel?
[97] Why, why, you know, why Heel?
[98] You could have made any business.
[99] You could have done marketing.
[100] You could have done anything.
[101] Why Heel?
[102] Because the thing that interesting me, I sort of sat down, thought, what am I actually interested?
[103] I was always interested in sort of health and fitness stuff, sort of well -being.
[104] And so the Body Hack Company was a, I was trying to get rid of all the sort of dubious websites out there that are giving fake information.
[105] What's going to try and do is run every single people, you know, all different meal plans, all different exercise programs to see which ones work.
[106] Take photographs every week.
[107] After three months, you would see which ones actually generated the result.
[108] And so I did that for three months.
[109] And I was, went down from 21 % body fat, down to 11 % body fat was 40, 41 years old.
[110] So it's the leanest I'd ever been.
[111] And that was because I was weighing all of my food from scratch.
[112] So it was crystal clear that what you eat is super important, is more important than going to the gym, really.
[113] So I was doing three hours of exercise, but I'd done that for 10 years previous, and I hadn't got the same results.
[114] So the food you eat is super important.
[115] And so my friend said, how did you do that?
[116] And I told them.
[117] And they said, how the fuck am I going to eat an egg at 11 o 'clock with broccoli and, you know, cook an egg?
[118] And then at 12 o 'clock, one o 'clock, going to cook 200 grams of turkey and quinoa and baby, spinach and it says it's not practical you know you're living in cloud cookie land so it made me think right so people want to eat healthy food but they need it convenient and typically it doesn't work that way usually healthy food is time consuming to prep and and then convenience food is just junk food is not good for you so where's the healthy convenience food out there so I was using protein shakes protein shakes super convenient but you can't lift off protein alone so they're no good either so it made me think why wouldn't we could put all the stuff into one single product So I found James Collier, who's our co -founder.
[119] James Collier put a formula together, which is pretty much what it is today.
[120] And then made us think, well, there's all the other benefits of it.
[121] Because when it's powder, it's got a 12 -month shelf life.
[122] So it's better for the world in the sense of there's no food waste.
[123] 30 % of food is all thrown away because it gets bruised or its shelf life expires.
[124] Well, you can't bruise powder.
[125] So that's really good.
[126] You can put all these meals into a single bag.
[127] So it's super convenient.
[128] It's got all the nutrients in a single product.
[129] and then we can make it vegan as well because if you can't see it it doesn't really matter whether it's a meat product or whether it's a vegetable product you know you've just blended all these products down so it just ticked so many boxes it's time you think shit this is like better for the world it's better for the person using it it's more cost effective than most foods that people consuming today it's more convenient win win win win win so it made us think right that that's got some legs to it and then the next job was to come up with a brand come up with the name get the product made get it to market of all of that process you've just described, what part of it were you uniquely good at?
[130] And I can ask this question in another way.
[131] When I meet entrepreneurs, I always think there's like one defining thing that made them succeed versus probably everybody else who would have had that same thought and would have even maybe had the same idea.
[132] But within the execution, there's something within the founder or a CEO, whether it's, you know, Burnett, Jim Shark or other CEOs that I've spoken to that is kind of unique to them and they're an experience and often unique to how they see the world?
[133] Possibly, I'm not sure exactly whether it's one particular thing.
[134] I think I've got a good design aesthetic.
[135] I think I'm not a great design.
[136] I can't design, but I think I know something looks good or doesn't look good.
[137] So I think that has been beneficial.
[138] I think the fact that I'd already made my money meant that I could make something that in lots of cases we overspecate it.
[139] You know, we spent more time or spent more effort or money on.
[140] something whereas I could have done a lot cheaper version.
[141] I think sometimes that's the problem these types of products in the past.
[142] People have cut corners in a bad way.
[143] They've not used the best ingredients.
[144] They've not packaged it in the best way.
[145] They've not cared as much as what I did because I only did it.
[146] I didn't do it to make money because I already made my money.
[147] So I didn't need that.
[148] I did something that I generally wanted and the objective was to do so I was proud of and the size of the business was irrelevant.
[149] Sometimes by chasing after numbers, I think that is the, that means do you never get the numbers?
[150] But by not try.
[151] you get there.
[152] It's a little bit trying to go out maybe.
[153] Yeah, yeah.
[154] So, you know, if you try too hard, it feels, yeah, you don't get the results.
[155] I think it's, it's the fact that we didn't try too hard.
[156] We just, I, my original objective was three days a week work and to have a thousand people buying it a month.
[157] So it's going to be a lifestyle business.
[158] That's, that's, that's what the objective was and something that I would, I would use personally and something that I would be proud of wearing a t -shirt down, down the pub with my friends.
[159] And they may do it.
[160] And I was talking every day, I went down the pub the other day, and all four of us that we went down in the pub, was all wearing one part of your clothing, because they're sort of proud to be associated with brand as well.
[161] So that, I think that aspect of already have made the money meant that this time I could do it in a different way.
[162] And I wasn't always thinking about cutting corners or saving money.
[163] It's all about how do I make something that is good, you know, a quality product.
[164] You did it for the right reasons.
[165] Exactly.
[166] There's something about that I've noticed about entrepreneurs where where they are willing to do something even if it's unpaid for the next five years because it's coming from a genuine place and those are the entrepreneurs same with with with with with with Jimshark now that I've mentioned him that over time especially in the macro with a macro perspective seem to create things that the people love but also they're able to weather the storms that come along with the way because most people would quit upon getting the first piece of bad news or hitting the first wall but that passion and that desire to do it for the right reasons, I think it keeps them going.
[167] And on that, I guess to that point, jumping ahead a little bit, I think generally there's a perception that entrepreneurship is easy.
[168] And someone might listen to, you know, that story.
[169] They might see the timeline that you've achieved your success on and what you've created there and think, well, I could do that as well.
[170] It's very, very easy.
[171] And I think we, as entrepreneurs, have a responsibility to give them the full picture.
[172] Because there's not a lot of places, certainly not Instagram, where they're getting the full picture.
[173] So can you talk to me about some.
[174] of the sacrifices and some of the hardships that went into creating this that people wouldn't know.
[175] Okay.
[176] So sacrifices.
[177] I didn't pay myself for three years.
[178] You mentioned that.
[179] So I just thought, what's the point of paying myself?
[180] It's going to come out of the company pocket.
[181] I think, you know, probably the first 18 months, I was totally immersed in the company, obsessed, didn't do anything else, really.
[182] You know, I did go out, but, you know, the hours you put in are ridiculous.
[183] so every it was seven days a week for probably the first 18 months not full blast but I would say that what was happening was I'd do a full day's work come home have some dinner and then go back on the computer I used to do all the Facebook answers you used to order some of the customer service but I would do some of that every evening and weekends for yeah probably good 18 months and didn't pay myself at the same time probably made myself ill as well you know like you just you sometimes burn the candle at both ends a little bit too much and you just try and get through these times me and my wife split up and that partly was down to that so yeah it's not as easy as you think but at the same time I think sometimes people think it's too hard and don't start and I just think you should I think people should have a go at it I don't think that I'm wildly different from the next you know the next person and so i think that a lot of people think it's too hard and they shouldn't do it and i think some people should have a crack at it earlier than what they do looking back i do think that i waited too long i was 37 36 37 when i first started and you're you know i don't know when you've started you're you're super young right so you've you've done it so uh you didn't you know you said earlier about uh i don't about your education but you didn't come from money you didn't come from a super high level of education same as me and we've both managed to make things successful So it's just creating determination.
[184] The cost you spoke about there, though, you know, I've experienced that myself.
[185] You know, I try, I've really never had a girlfriend.
[186] I tried for a year.
[187] And that went to shit.
[188] Because, again, you know, irrespective of how many hours I spend in the office, I spend all of my time in my head.
[189] You know what I mean?
[190] Thinking about things.
[191] And that can, I think, make people that try and be in a relationship with me feel very lonely, even if they're sat next to me. yeah and i've never been particularly good at compromise i've been very very selfish over the years and so when what you speak about there with your with your partner with your ex -wife yeah is that something that what advice would you give to 18 year old steve who's who's uh someone like you that's thinking of starting their business um about the impacts that it can have on romantic relationships um i think that there's probably nowhere around it that if if you've got it in you that you want to do something, then sometimes things do have to change.
[192] And if you deny yourself starting something or doing something because you really want to, then it still might have that knock on effect anyway because you won't be happy with yourself, I don't think.
[193] If you're driven in a certain way, you just can't help it, I don't think.
[194] So the good news is that it doesn't last forever.
[195] So while you're in an obsessed stage, getting something going, because it has to, you know, it's a flywheel, it's a snowball.
[196] it has to get going, that eventually, so I'm back down to say maybe four days a week now and I'm able to do sort of podcast rather than normally this would have been, no, I can't do this.
[197] I've got work to do, whereas I can now do these extra things that are still useful for the business, but at a time, you know, it's life or death when the early days of a business, you know, if something's not done today, the business could fail tomorrow.
[198] So in the early days you do have to commit, you do have to say, suck it up and go, it could be 18 months, it could be two years, could be three years.
[199] But there has to, to be a time in your life when I think you just grit your teeth, get it done, and then you can look back.
[200] And how do you know?
[201] Because there'll be a lot of people that will start businesses and they'll get two years in and nothing's working.
[202] And, you know, they've sacrificed their relationships.
[203] They've sacrificed their time.
[204] They probably have made themselves ill to some extent.
[205] Yeah.
[206] How do you know when to quit, to throw in the towel or to carry on going?
[207] I guess this is a tough question.
[208] Yeah, I think, I don't think there's any right answer, but I've, I've had three main businesses and those three two of them went almost straight away that as soon as we launched there was instant results the other one it was it was it was it was lukewarm and i think that might be the signal that if you're say two years in and it's still lukewarm that ain't going to ever going to come good i don't think obviously there are exceptions to that where people have chugged the long very slowly for a number of years and suddenly it's exploded i think i think there's so many opportunities now.
[209] There's so many different ways to get the ball rolling.
[210] You should be able to get a minimal viable product out the door pretty quick.
[211] And then you should see if there's no demand, you shouldn't have to chase a demand.
[212] I mean, in the early days, we couldn't keep up with the demand.
[213] You know, it's struggled to keep up.
[214] And I think my first business, it just took off straight away.
[215] Like I said, within three months, I was only more money than my objective was.
[216] So both of those took off within the first few months you knew pretty quick.
[217] You know, there was a long run up to get sometimes the launch stage.
[218] But I think if you can think a way, you can think a way, you can try and get some early adoption, then that should give you enough feedback or enough inspiration to keep going.
[219] But if that is hard graft, you're not people are not that interested.
[220] Maybe it's not the right idea.
[221] It's not the right thing.
[222] So going back to the question I asked a second ago as well, in the last couple of years, is there a particular day or moment that you would consider to be your hardest?
[223] There's probably a couple.
[224] I think every day's pretty hard, right?
[225] Don't get me wrong, like every day there's problems.
[226] We've just been talking about some problems in the building today.
[227] So every day can be pretty hard.
[228] There are some real crunch ones.
[229] So, you know, even pre -launch, we had a product, we had a company that strung us along for a number of months that had promised to make the product and strong as long, strong as long, when I say it's basically me, and then let me down.
[230] And that was probably a year in pre -launch.
[231] You know, that took me a year to get to that stage.
[232] So at that point, I sort of said I'm done.
[233] but the following day got out of bed and went, why should I give up just because of that one person let me down?
[234] There must be other people out that they can do it.
[235] So just why not just keep going?
[236] So that was one.
[237] And then another one was just sometimes you get a lot of criticism on social media, which I'm sure you're probably aware of.
[238] And it's stupidly unjustified.
[239] Yeah, but it does get to you.
[240] And you just think, what are you even, you know, like we're an ethical company.
[241] We're trying the best to do the right thing.
[242] So when people criticize, you only think there's all these other dodgy companies out there doing bad stuff why you pick it on an ass you know why you haven't to go out and that can be that can be soul destroying how do you how have you learned how to deal with that ignore it I think uh in the early days I used to really go backwards and forwards with people trying to change their mind and uh never works I read somewhere I have done it a couple of times I have managed to persuade a few but I did read some of they said like give your answer back to somebody and that's it that's it no more you just give one answer back so you give your side of the story they come with you as criticism you tell your side back And one thing quite often I used to kill critics too much is there's a quote from Ratatoui, believe it or not.
[243] The Anton Egan quote, if you cut that and paste that and send that back to somebody, which basically said, you know, critics are worthless.
[244] They had nothing to the society.
[245] That's basically what the quote says.
[246] I don't think anybody's ever come back after that and actually come back and had an argument back.
[247] I'll send you the quote you can use it.
[248] I'm the same, obviously.
[249] I think all business centers are the same if you really care about your business.
[250] and you know that the things being said about your business and your life's work are fundamentally incorrect.
[251] Not even, you know, someone else's opinion.
[252] Fundamentally, that didn't happen or that doesn't happen.
[253] It can be one of the most triggering things, even for me today.
[254] Yeah, for sure.
[255] Yeah, it can ruin your day, right?
[256] Especially if then a bunch of other people jump on and believe that fundamentally incorrect thing and then it becomes part of your brand.
[257] Yeah.
[258] I've struggled with that over the years with social channel.
[259] I've just arrived at the, the decision that I will I will in some cases reply empathetically but if I don't feel like I can reply empathetically I won't reply at all yeah I think that's the best approach so can you tell me something that you've learned from building Hewle and being an entrepreneur that you think most aspiring entrepreneurs have absolutely no idea about or that is not told I mean there's so much basic stuff behind the scenes, like coming up with a brand, come up on an idea, you know, you read so much advice on how to do those types of things, how to do performance marketing, so much advice on that.
[260] But there's the basic stuff behind the scene, just doing purchase orders, just doing the real simple stuff, how to find an office, how to recruit staff, all the real basic stuff you don't really hear about because it's not the sexy side of it.
[261] And I think those sorts of things, you just, I mean, you have to make it up as you go.
[262] But I think that was one thing, that was surprising to me because my first business was easy in comparison, that there was no product, there was no customer service, there was no fulfilment, none of those types of things, whereas with pure, a physical product is hard, much, much, much harder than doing online stuff.
[263] Sure.
[264] So my background was digital marketing, and so creating the website, creating the name, it's all difficult, but it was much easier than actually getting a physical product, and then actually getting that product to market, then getting a full film.
[265] you know, picking the cardboard boxes, learning how to tape a carball box up, you know, all these really sort of basic stuff you're just not even aware of.
[266] So there's absolutely thousands of things like that.
[267] The users are not aware of until you start.
[268] And there's no one to even tell you how to do it because it's not the sexy stuff.
[269] So nobody's really telling you how to do it.
[270] One of the questions that I think is most popular when I look at my inboxes from young entrepreneurs is a very sort of ambiguous question, but it's just, where do I start?
[271] right, because there's typically so many things that one could be doing that I think entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs are sometimes forced into like they almost paralysed themselves because they look at all that, you know, I've got to do this, this is.
[272] So what would your advice be to an entrepreneur that's listening that thinks?
[273] I want to start a business, but I'm just overwhelmed by the amount of things that I think I need to do.
[274] I would, in terms of the idea, I would always try and look for something.
[275] I think Huell was a product that I wanted.
[276] it was an issue that I had.
[277] I wanted convenience, healthy food, right?
[278] So that's, and that's what my friends wanted.
[279] So I had the perfect audience because if you are your own customer, then you will use your own product.
[280] And if it pisses you off, then you can fix it.
[281] Whereas if I'm trying to make, I don't know, a product for some different type of person, I'm trying to guess all the time what they actually want.
[282] So if I make it for myself and my immediate friends, then I've got the perfect feedback loop.
[283] I just keep using it every day.
[284] And then that big bugs me. I fix that.
[285] then this bit bugs me, they'll fix that.
[286] So I think fixing a problem you personally got or people very close to you have got means that you will be able to get to the best product very quickly.
[287] And obviously, you know, when you have the success like you've had with your previous business in marketing and then obviously Huell, a lot of things can change in your life personally.
[288] And one of those things is obviously money, which is a clear upside of building a business and being successful and selling it, as we would know.
[289] what impact has money and having money had on your life going from where you were digging, you know, holes in the road to now?
[290] In some ways, it sounds a bit strange, but maybe not that much.
[291] I still live on the same estate.
[292] I live in a bigger house, but it's the same estate.
[293] I still go to my same local pub with the same friends.
[294] I still live in the same town.
[295] I drive a nicer car.
[296] What car?
[297] it's a seven series BMW so it's a nicer card I had before I go on nicer holidays when we first sold my first business we bought a house on the coast which was very nice but we didn't use it enough so we sold it and got a lot of money in the bank so I can do whatever I like whenever I like I don't buy expensive I've got a plastic digital watch on here so I don't really go and buy the crazy expensive stuff because you know as long as you're financially secure I think spending you know, basically, I suppose I've been brought up a bit tight, you know, like, you know, you, you, you don't spend wildly.
[298] So I think in terms of, um, about in terms of happiness and does it made you happier?
[299] yeah I suppose it has you you don't have to worry about money you know you I don't spend recklessly but I do take you know I take uh lads on holiday you know my 10 of us going to um Spain later on this year so I'm paying for the uh hotels I've taken people to Vegas to watch at UFC fires um so I've tried and do it all around experiences rather than um buying gold watches or something like that so those those times are really good.
[300] You know, so you remember those days.
[301] So I suppose it makes you happy because of those.
[302] But on a day -to -day, fundamentally day -to -day basis, if you were 10 times smaller than what is the day, I'd be just as happy.
[303] So a young person that's listening to this that is wondering if money, because it's one of the lessons that I learned, I thought for some bizarre reason that money would scale my happiness to some extent.
[304] But I was content and happy at the time.
[305] But I just presumed probably because lots of the unhappiness in my life growing up was my mum and dad screaming at each other because they can, you know, afford things.
[306] I presumed it would scale my happiness, but upon making a decent amount of money, I realised that adding more money to that would have very little effect.
[307] But what I like to really like to buy your answer is that realisation that the happiness will come from experiences with like meaningful relationships and stuff.
[308] Yeah, definitely.
[309] Versus cars and watches and stuff.
[310] Yeah, I think you, if it's a new experiences and new experience was with cars i think i think somebody said it quite wisely that once you bought one you get you get used to anything so that's the new norm for you so then you have to then where do you go then you go to more expensive car and you more expensive car what what you do at some point yeah never ended so i think that by doing new novel things like going to new places like we went to the grand national this this year took some lads up there we we stayed you know went nice places and you know it was good so those sorts of things i think are the the best thing that has come out of this you know, he gave some of our friends and families some money as well, which helped them out.
[311] But I think in general, yeah, the gold watch is not the thing you're that do it for me. One of the big things in our sort of society at the moment is the topic of mental health.
[312] Yeah.
[313] And founders and entrepreneurs go through very sort of high pressure, I guess, high pressure journeys in order to try and achieve this objective.
[314] I've got so many questions here.
[315] How do you protect your own mental health and what have you learned over the last couple of years about keeping your sort of mental well -being in check?
[316] I think that I, because of keeping my friends close, I think those are useful.
[317] I think sometimes people might drop their friends, move out.
[318] We talked about spending money on a big house.
[319] But basically that big house has got to be out in the countryside, which basically you're removing yourself from your social circle.
[320] It seems a little bit strange in some ways to actually become more detached.
[321] So I've deliberately not done that.
[322] That's why I still live on the same same friends.
[323] So I think that's a good thing.
[324] Don't just, you know, forget where he came from and just move on to bigger and better things.
[325] So, you know, we were talking earlier about Ash, you know, like you're still friends with this guy that you first started off with.
[326] So I think it's good to have long -term friends.
[327] I think that's a fundamental.
[328] And I think in terms of the last few years, if you go too much, mad in terms of hours, it's going to catch up with you eventually.
[329] So you will get yourself burned out if you're not careful.
[330] I'm a lot older than you.
[331] So I'm probably going to get burned out easier.
[332] You could probably go harder than what I can for longer.
[333] But you do need to take into account that when you see it coming, you've got to try and take the foot off the accelerator a little bit.
[334] But, you know, ultimately, somebody asked me a question, a place over that, you know, there is no way around it.
[335] You can have to put the graft in.
[336] You have to put the hours in.
[337] It's going to have to be for a sustained period of time to make these things work.
[338] But try and keep an eye on yourself because if you start, I don't know, I probably started going out too much.
[339] You know, like in the evening, you're trying to make up for, because you think it's like a reward mechanism, I suppose.
[340] You think, I've put all these hours in.
[341] What am I getting back out of it?
[342] I'm not just going to sit at, so I probably burnt a candle at both ends, went out a bit too much.
[343] And midweek, weekends, and you just think, yeah, you can do it.
[344] You're indestructible.
[345] You keep going, but eventually it will catch up with you, if you're not careful.
[346] Did it catch up with you?
[347] Yeah.
[348] Yeah.
[349] And what were the symptoms of that?
[350] I'm asking for myself here because, because do you know what?
[351] What you said that was very accurate.
[352] I, at one stage, thought I was indestructible.
[353] Right.
[354] When I was like 18, 19, I thought I can just, I don't need sleep.
[355] I don't need to speak to a human being.
[356] I can just hammer it away.
[357] And then, you know, I'd look at other people and think, like, ha, ha, ha.
[358] Yeah.
[359] And then people would say to me all the time, you're going to burn yourself out.
[360] And I never believed the word of it.
[361] I never believed either until I started to get super tired, right?
[362] So I just thought, You know, like there was, I tell you what the signal was when I stopped going to work.
[363] There was a couple of times when I just, I'd get up in the morning, get on the sofa and didn't go in.
[364] And that was not me. So, yeah, and then like, stop going to the gym and stuff like that.
[365] And just like, going to the gym, we should look forward to it because it gives you a bit of a lift, a bit of a buzz.
[366] And then I go to the gym and I dread going because I know they're going to be even more tired when I come out of it.
[367] And it wouldn't do that.
[368] And so I think I went to saw a doctor.
[369] doctor said chronic fatigue syndrome and and then the obviously the problem with that is it's not clearly defined as being an actual thing there's no clearly defined sort of medication basically said like you need to change your you know like sleep patterns and stuff like that and sort yourself out take some time off I said I can't take too much time off of stuff to do so it was just a case of and this was probably 18 months two years ago so I think I'm sort of back to normal now, but it does take a long time.
[370] And some of those days we are, yeah, you're just, you're just fucked in terms of, you know, your ability to get stuff done.
[371] So luckily, the team's a lot bigger now.
[372] So we've brought people in.
[373] I gave up the CEO role.
[374] And so all those things have contributed to put me back on an even keel.
[375] Chronic fatigue syndrome.
[376] Yeah.
[377] What did he what did he say, the doctor say about that?
[378] Sounds like something that I need to do my very best to avoid.
[379] Yes, indeed.
[380] I think that some people, there is no, I don't think it's even a clear, I think it's one of these one really quite a woolly ones.
[381] People say it's not even a thing.
[382] But for me, it was like very clear that I was not the same as what I was previously.
[383] And so, yeah, I think it probably was burning the candle at both ends.
[384] And, you know, like I'd go, I'd do a day's work, go out in the evening, get up in the morning, go to the gym, do a hard session, go to work, do it again.
[385] And like that was a bit too extreme because of this sort of feeling like I could do anything.
[386] And eventually it does catch up with you.
[387] But I think it's just, you've just trying, in the early days of a startup, it's a sprint for sure.
[388] You could die the following day, basically.
[389] If the company, if you don't do certain work, the company could fail.
[390] So you are scared of failure in terms of this baby you've created.
[391] It needs nurturing.
[392] You know, you've got to try and nurture that baby as best as you can.
[393] And if you don't feed that baby that second it could die so you keep you keep feeding and then eventually the baby becomes a toddler and it's more self -sufficient and I think that at that stage you can take the foot of the accelerator and that you need to try and get to that point and notice that point and then do take your foot of the accelerator because if you try and keep going full pace full pace it turns from a sprint to a marathon so we're in that sort of marathon stage now we sort of can see the future of being I've got this you know it's not it's not another year's time it's number three or four years time.
[394] And if you're at full pace of the number three or fours, you're really going to struggle.
[395] And I guess it's about trying to make your life a little bit more balanced and sustainable, which is what I'm thinking a lot about at the moment.
[396] Someone asked me the other day, they said, what's your goal for the next couple of years?
[397] And I said to try and achieve more balance and sustainability within my life, because I've heard from enough people like yourself who are much more experienced than I am that if I don't, then it will actually be detrimental to my business in the long term versus me thinking that I can just sacrifice everything, you know?
[398] Yep.
[399] And I've not been very good either at maintaining personal relationships, but also romantic relationships, as I said.
[400] And I have this inclination that I'll probably get old and be lonely if I don't do something about that quite quickly.
[401] You've got lots of time ahead of you, but I think there is a strong argument to, you know, you've got a successful business now.
[402] It seems pretty solid to me. You know, you've got some good people.
[403] You've got two big teams.
[404] you know, New York and, uh, and Manchester.
[405] So yeah, you probably could take a little bit more time to get that balance right.
[406] And, uh, if you think about, well, we went to fast track the other day and Richard Branson came up on the screen and did a little talk.
[407] And, uh, you know, he's, I think he's 68 years old now, but he's still got his fingers in lots of pies.
[408] And he could be burning himself out.
[409] But I think he lives on Necker Islands.
[410] So he gets on the morning, he goes kite surfing, but he's still involved in his businesses.
[411] But one of the other guys there.
[412] I can't remember what was he was the MD of Virgin or something like that.
[413] He said one of the good things about Richard is he doesn't get involved in the detail.
[414] So when he comes into meeting, it doesn't know the details.
[415] You can take the overview of the whole business.
[416] You can see stuff that the other people are in the day to day they can't see.
[417] So he's more visionary.
[418] He can see the high level.
[419] But that works for him because then he doesn't need to know the detail.
[420] So it's sort of maybe that's what you could be good at or what I should do more of.
[421] He's just don't do the job, but be the sort of visionary or the overview of the whole.
[422] thing and that allows you to put less hours in because you've got a whole team to execute for you but you still steer the ship so you see the overview and that means you could spend less time doing the nitty gritty you know I I completely agree and I saw that you had relinquished the title of CEO of the company yeah and I think that the reasons for you doing that were 100 % admirable and showed a tremendous amount of self -awareness but so many people, probably myself included, have an ego, right?
[423] Yeah.
[424] Like, let's just be honest.
[425] And there's something that comes with the title of CEO that I think a lot of people would be attached to.
[426] Now, you, and I've mentioned him a few times now, but Bennett, Jim Shark, have both made that decision.
[427] And I really wanted to understand why you made that decision.
[428] And to kind of understand if it's the best decision for me as well.
[429] Because, well, I'm not saying anybody can, but there's There's lots of CEOs.
[430] So if you take a big successful company, over the years, they have lots of CEOs.
[431] They can only ever have one founder.
[432] So you're never going to lose that.
[433] So don't worry about the ego side of it because you're still always going to be the founder of social chain, right?
[434] So you don't have to worry about that.
[435] That's can't change.
[436] It's impossible to change.
[437] Nobody can come and do that.
[438] The CEO role is hard.
[439] It's a lot of hours.
[440] And it's very broad.
[441] So what I saw was that my skill set is not is not HR, it's not operations.
[442] There's not.
[443] not finance.
[444] It's not new product development.
[445] It's not people skills.
[446] You know, it's that is those, but that's what CEO needs to be good at all those little things.
[447] And I felt that I was very average, all of those.
[448] But I'm very good at brand and marketing.
[449] So why am I, it's just a bad use of time for me to get involved in.
[450] I mean, some of the discussions the CEO has to get involved in, but just very dull in my eyes.
[451] I just didn't, it wasn't the stuff that I think I could add value to.
[452] I don't think I was particularly good at.
[453] and I didn't find that interesting.
[454] So I decided to bring somebody in who was better at that than me. So James McMasters came in, has done an excellent job.
[455] And so that allowed me to do what I thought I was good at, which is the brand and marketing and the beauty of brand and marketing.
[456] It still can have input into all those other areas because if the operation is not right, the delivery's not on time or the product's not right, then I still can, I say that's affecting the customer, fix it.
[457] You know, what's wrong with that?
[458] No, I still have input.
[459] It's not like I'm sort of sidelines.
[460] sure and I think Ben took the role of brand something rather creative something yeah so he's still got an overview of what the customer sees and I think that you know the rest of it is the nuts and bolts but really it's what the customer sees is the key stuff and so as long as you keep a handle on the overall brand and the way people see the company how it actually gets executed can be passed over to a big broad team who can make that happen it's probably probably the case that the majority of founders should probably not be the CEO.
[461] No, I agree.
[462] Do you know what I mean?
[463] Yeah, I do agree.
[464] Because you have the vision and you have the understanding from day one, which is no one will ever be able to replicate, no matter how hard they try.
[465] They can create something different from the base you've built, but they'll never be able to make hule, heel, right?
[466] But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're the best with operations and finance.
[467] Like, I'm not.
[468] I'm definitely not.
[469] And I've managed to put a lot of people around me that are much better than me at most things.
[470] so my next question is um what what you regret not starting sooner really yeah i think so i think looking back i mean in some ways i never regret anything because where i am today i might if i'd started sooner i might have failed because i didn't have the same amount of experience or wasn't the same level of motivation or whatever it was but i might have given up so i might not be here today i always think that you know there's all little changes throughout your life and they're all possibly for a reason as you go through you pick up stuff as you go and i'm i'm here I'm in a place where I want to be, so maybe it was exactly the right way to do it.
[471] But yeah, if I was looking back, you'd probably say, started sooner.
[472] You started way young.
[473] I feel very old.
[474] Random question.
[475] Are you scared of dying?
[476] No. Why?
[477] Because I don't think I'm going to ever die.
[478] I'm a bit silly.
[479] I just don't, I just seem so far away.
[480] It seems so far away that I don't even think about it.
[481] No, I'm definitely not scared.
[482] I think I've had a full life.
[483] I think I've done most things that I wanted to do.
[484] So, no. What are you scared of?
[485] Spiders.
[486] Is that it?
[487] Yeah, I don't like spiders.
[488] You're not scared of the business falling into the ground, do not going wrong?
[489] No, like I said, I think even if fuel was the size of this room and we had three staff and at the products we had today, I'd still be happy.
[490] It's something that I like.
[491] I think we've done a good job I think it looks good I think it's a good product does good for the world so yeah even if you know even if we go back to the thousand true fans that I originally chased after and try to make happier I think if we set those still got the same level of engagement I'll be happy what advice would you give me about that relationship issue I described and have you managed to find the answers in your own life relationship issues I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm the right man to give those I'm not sure.
[492] I think there's, you just got to do, I think, don't try and please other people.
[493] There's so many people out in the world.
[494] Somebody's going to be exactly right for everybody out there.
[495] So just do, just decide what you want.
[496] And if somebody doesn't fit in with that, then they're not quite right.
[497] No compromise.
[498] No compromise.
[499] Really?
[500] Yeah, I don't think so.
[501] I think, yeah, relationships are hard.
[502] Long -term relationships are super hard.
[503] Marriage is super hard.
[504] You know, you're making a commitment.
[505] to somebody who may change and you may change and you've made a commitment.
[506] It seems a bit strange way to do it.
[507] I've never made a commitment to my friends and we're friends 30 years later.
[508] They know that if they're a dick, I'm not going to be friends with them.
[509] If I'm a dick, they won't be friends with me. So just it's an unwritten rule.
[510] Just be nice to each other.
[511] And we're still friends 30 years later.
[512] So there's no pressure that way.
[513] And those relationships are the most long -standing relationships I've got.
[514] So something in friendship that's there's an extra pressure in, relationships which are not the same do you think that's something to do with the ring and the signing the contract possibly yeah exactly so i think uh i think relationships are uh put extra pressure on each other that sometimes you need space and you know like friends don't live with me they're not on my case all the time and um i think there's something there's something there that's um yeah friend friendships you know guy friendships that i've got they they're the best relationships i've got there's something there's got me something there's the the important stuff you're talking about, you know, friends you've got.
[515] And, yeah, the remote, romantic ones are sometimes extra complicated for arguably no reason.
[516] Why don't you be nice to each other and we'll still be, you know, romantically involved years later.
[517] Who needs marriage?
[518] Yeah, who needs marriage?
[519] Yeah, I don't think so.
[520] I don't think, I don't think I'd ever do that again.
[521] Really, can I ask, are you single?
[522] No, I'm not single.
[523] Okay, interesting.
[524] It's one of the things I'm most interested in the moment because it's something I'm trying to fix it in my own life.
[525] Yeah.
[526] And I've, like, failed repeatedly.
[527] So, and I don't really believe in marriage.
[528] I don't believe in marriage.
[529] I think, I think it's illogical to make a commitment to somebody for something that you're saying, you know, through thickened thing and forever more.
[530] But you don't know how that person's going to change.
[531] I think, I think, yeah, me and you say we've got to be friends.
[532] You don't need to sign a contract.
[533] Don't need to do anything.
[534] Religion and the Lord doesn't need to get involved.
[535] If I do something wrong, we're not friends anymore.
[536] You know, why does it need to be any more complicated than that?
[537] Just treat each other as you want to.
[538] to be treated, be nice, don't be a dick.
[539] It doesn't.
[540] It's not difficult.
[541] What success for you?
[542] Success.
[543] I think a community of people has been really something that I've sort of, when you see our hooligans on social media sharing the product, I think that's been heartwarming and does indicate how well we've done.
[544] Clearly, numbers are some sort of crude measure of success.
[545] But yeah, I think being financially secure is a success as well.
[546] I think moving forward, we're just going to keep going doing what we do.
[547] We've talked about exits at some point, but that will come.
[548] It's all the product of doing the right thing.
[549] So we never, when we raised our money last year, we never went chasing after investors.
[550] It was a, they came to us.
[551] They chased after us.
[552] And it's all because we just produced a good product.
[553] customers like it re -bought the product and so it all happened um so yeah that's basically be how i see it my last question okay um we're sat at this table now yeah um dinner party yep you can invite four other people to the dinner party yeah and you get to decide what we all eat right they can be dead or alive uh okay so i think i would definitely invite you For sure.
[554] Okay.
[555] I'm already there.
[556] So you've got four others.
[557] All right.
[558] Four others.
[559] Okay.
[560] So I think I listen to a lot of podcasts.
[561] Right.
[562] So probably be podcast people.
[563] Right.
[564] So I really think Joe Rogan is awesome.
[565] I think that he's got a very wide breadth of interests.
[566] And I think he's generally a decent guy.
[567] So I think he'd be very interesting.
[568] Tim Ferrish probably, same sort of reason.
[569] Derek Sivers, same sort of reason.
[570] Mm -hmm.
[571] um this one has to be uh okay this would be a pure entertainment one connor mcgregor just because i'm into uFC just to just for bring a bit of entertainment to the table that would be a lively dinner party what would they be eating okay so your favorite meal my favorite meal would probably be uh um i think i don't know maybe be a british sunday dinner maybe just because they've maybe not tried one before something like that is that when you're favorites.
[572] I think it is, yeah.
[573] Amazing.
[574] Thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for creating a product that so many people, including myself, rely on to function and to pursue becoming the best versions of ourselves because I really think that that's what Huell is to me. I think it's an enabler and it's enabled me to be myself without worrying too much about my health or time falling at the expense of that.
[575] So thank you and thank you so much for your time today.
[576] You're a real inspiration to me and what you've done through the product and through the business you've created, I think, is just brilliant.
[577] And I really, really mean that.
[578] So thank you.
[579] Appreciate that.
[580] Thank you very much.
[581] You're too kind.
[582] Thank you.
[583] Thank you.