EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Dr. Phil

[0] Hello, welcome to experts on expert.

[1] I'm your host, Dax Padman, joined by Monica Shepard.

[2] Today we have Dr. Phil.

[3] Yeah, good old Dr. Phil.

[4] Dr. Phil McGraw.

[5] This is our second guest that's a doctor that goes by their first name.

[6] That's right.

[7] And as you know, on Ellen, I go by Dr. Dax.

[8] So I feel a kinship.

[9] You're in the same league.

[10] Now, you know, I got to say, if you're on the fence about listening to Dr. Phil, I posted a picture of Dr. Phil one time, and it seemed to be a little bit polarizing.

[11] Okay.

[12] And I feel like this podcast will really help because I'm going to tell you, he is a lovable, goofy son of a gun in the best way possible.

[13] He is funny and fun, yeah.

[14] He is.

[15] And I think you'll find his story a lot more complex than I gave it credit for.

[16] Yeah.

[17] It was really revealing.

[18] I really enjoyed it.

[19] And I did his podcast, and I just generally feel in my gut.

[20] He's a good dude.

[21] So please enjoy Dr. Phil McGraw.

[22] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[23] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[24] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[25] I don't.

[26] For how long have you not drank?

[27] I've never drank it.

[28] It smells so good, and it tastes like motor oil.

[29] Yeah, a lot of people feel that way.

[30] So I don't drink it.

[31] I wish I did.

[32] What do you do for caffeine, anything?

[33] Ice tea.

[34] I drink ice tea all the time.

[35] That's a very southern thing, isn't it, to drink sun tea?

[36] My mother used to make it for us, and she would make it by the half gallon and put a cup of sugar in it.

[37] We now call that maple syrup.

[38] Right, right, right.

[39] the time it was iced tea yeah and what's the whole why does it sit outside in the sun is that just supposed to brew it and then that you put the tea bags in it set outside the sun heats up the water and it brews it and it won't brew in lukewarm water they have cold brew now but i mean no self -respecting southerner cold brews i mean that's a very yuppie thing right right but i don't do that and that shit at all so i want to start by saying i did your podcast You did.

[40] Yes, which was a real treat, I got to say.

[41] Because when I left there and people would say like, oh, what was it like being on Dr. Phil's podcast?

[42] I go, Dr. Phil's a goofball.

[43] And I say that in the best, most flattering way imaginable.

[44] I explained to them that you're a man who tried to do a wheelie up his own driveway on a dirt bike at, what, 65?

[45] Yeah.

[46] Both age and miles an hour.

[47] Bad idea.

[48] Yeah, but I guess when I, I guess I had very cursory knowledge of you.

[49] I just knew, like, your show and stuff.

[50] I don't really know much about you as a person.

[51] And come to find out that you were doing motorcycle stunts in your front yard, I just find that very charming.

[52] Yeah, well, you got to give me, give me this.

[53] It's not a macho story, but it is a long driveway.

[54] I mean, it's not like.

[55] Oh, believe me. I mean, it's not like 10 feet.

[56] I didn't crash in 10 feet.

[57] No, no, no. And it's got a pretty good grade on it.

[58] I'd say it's a good 6 % grade.

[59] Yeah, well, that's what Castro is telling me. He said, come on, you've got to collapse the shocks and then hit it hard, okay?

[60] And then just stay on it to keep it up.

[61] Of course, we're Castro, I'm talking about.

[62] Yeah, Steve DeCastro.

[63] And I both know.

[64] Steve DeCastro is, I mean, he can ride around inside anything.

[65] Yeah.

[66] You could put him in one of those cages he could ride around.

[67] Absolutely.

[68] For a couple hundred bucks, probably.

[69] Yeah, and would.

[70] Yeah.

[71] Yes.

[72] So he was advising you.

[73] And DeCastro's real gift as a stunt coordinator is that he has too much confidence in the actor.

[74] Yeah, for sure.

[75] That's his defining kind of characteristic because he let me do things on chips that really just I shouldn't have been doing.

[76] But here we sit, both of us.

[77] Yeah, I mean, you're a real rider.

[78] I used to ride a long time ago, but you're a real current rider.

[79] You can stop on the front wheel, swing the ass end around and go the other way.

[80] I've seen you do it.

[81] Okay, sure.

[82] But I bet in your heyday on dirt, you were better than I've ever been on dirt.

[83] Well, I don't know.

[84] I've never been that great at motocross.

[85] We didn't have technology back then.

[86] I mean, you'd come down, then break a peg off, and then your ankles all rolled up in the back tire.

[87] Yes.

[88] Yeah.

[89] Now, already, Monica.

[90] Yes.

[91] Are you shocked that Dr. Phil has this background?

[92] Yeah, it's pretty surprising.

[93] And it's pretty attractive and charming.

[94] It's charming, isn't it?

[95] He also was like a legit good.

[96] football player.

[97] Well, hold on before you fucking self -deprecate.

[98] You got a scholarship.

[99] If you get a scholarship to play football, that's a pretty good signal.

[100] You're good at it.

[101] I did get a scholarship to Division I, school.

[102] I mean, I'll give you that, but I fooled them.

[103] Okay.

[104] See, they thought I was fast, but I wasn't fast.

[105] I just started before everybody else.

[106] Okay, you were off sides a lot.

[107] Cheated?

[108] No, it's just people would, all of these other guys would go out, and they would just play the game.

[109] But I would actually watch the film when I would actually study the film, and I would see the guy and the guard, there were three plays that he would pull on, and he wouldn't put all of his weight on his knuckles when he was going to pull.

[110] And I would watch that.

[111] And on those three plays, it always wound up in this hole right over here.

[112] And when I would see him not put all of his weight forward, I go, okay, I know who.

[113] this place going.

[114] So I played it pretty cerebral and they thought, boy, this guy's really fast.

[115] No, I'm not fast.

[116] I just know where he's going.

[117] So they were playing football and you were playing poker.

[118] Yeah.

[119] You were looking for tell.

[120] Exactly.

[121] Now you grew up in Oklahoma.

[122] Vanita, Oklahoma.

[123] And let me tell you, it ain't happening in Veneta.

[124] It ain't headed that away.

[125] Okay.

[126] And what age did you leave that area?

[127] I was maybe six months old.

[128] I wasn't a Vanita.

[129] It's a charming town actually i'm joking about it but i've been back there since then and really a very charming town with really good people they hardworking know the value of a dollar they're solid folks i really like that town yeah but your dad he sold equipment to to oil he sold what drilling equipment and whatnot to he did at the when i was born he was actually the head football coach at vanita high school oh no kidding and i was born on a friday night at seven 15 the night of his first game his head coach.

[130] Oh, you're kidding.

[131] I broke up his first game as head coach.

[132] He didn't get to coach.

[133] He had to go to the hospital.

[134] He went.

[135] Well, that says a lot of - Shocked me that he went because knowing him as I did, his life went on.

[136] I'm stunned he went to the hospital.

[137] Well, I'm stunned that basically any father in 1950 would drop anything to attend the birth of their child.

[138] Yeah, because it wasn't like he was in the delivery room.

[139] They didn't do that then.

[140] He was smoking cigarettes in the hallway probably.

[141] Oh, yeah.

[142] I mean, he was, but I did.

[143] I did.

[144] I did.

[145] I I got credit for breaking up his first football game.

[146] I think they actually won, but he wasn't there for the whole game.

[147] So your dad is interesting because he sold drilling equipment or some kind of equipment to oil fields in North Texas.

[148] Right.

[149] But he himself had a dream of being a psychologist.

[150] He did.

[151] And, you know, it's interesting.

[152] He was a great football player.

[153] And he went to the Navy.

[154] and, you know, did his service to the country.

[155] And then he got into coaching and then he got into this oil field equipment and you start entertaining when you do that.

[156] I mean...

[157] Or like taking the guys out.

[158] Yeah, you got to understand.

[159] He was selling drilling bits and that sort of thing.

[160] So you go to a drilling site where the head driller is there.

[161] They want you to entertain them.

[162] So you show up with a half gallon of booze and, you know, if they want, if they want booze, you give them booze.

[163] They want whores, you give them, if they want, whatever you give them, because they're going to spend a lot of money with you.

[164] And he would see these guys like once every two weeks, but it was a different guy every night.

[165] And so he really got into drinking.

[166] And that's how he really became an alcoholic.

[167] During that job.

[168] Yeah, during that job, it got the best to him.

[169] And so he did a lot of interesting things.

[170] Sure.

[171] At what age was this for you?

[172] This is all of childhood?

[173] Well, he was really into it when we lived in Denver, and I was in the fourth, fifth, and sixth grade.

[174] Uh -huh.

[175] That's what it impacted me first the most.

[176] Yeah.

[177] And then in Oklahoma City, again, you know, that's when he went back to school.

[178] Then in Kansas City.

[179] So, I mean, I lived like three years in Tulsa, three years in Denver, three years in Oklahoma City, three years in Kansas City.

[180] It was like boom.

[181] It was almost like a military kid.

[182] Right, right.

[183] What effect did that have on you moving around so often having to start over?

[184] Were you successful at that?

[185] Well, you never had lasting relationships.

[186] You know, and you knew, I didn't know when I was in first, second, and third grade, but by the time you move after grade school, you know we're not staying anywhere.

[187] I mean, so you don't expect.

[188] And I was an athlete, so.

[189] You come in, and these teams back, I don't know how it is out here, but in Texas and Oklahoma, those teams are, that's a religion.

[190] Oh, yeah.

[191] It's like Friday Night Lights is the real deal.

[192] Sure.

[193] And so these kids, they've played together in Pop Warner, then they played together in middle school and in high school.

[194] So you come in, you're the outsider.

[195] This unit's been together for years.

[196] So you come in and, you know, you're the fifth wheel.

[197] These kids have all played this unit.

[198] Their coaches move up with them.

[199] Right.

[200] I mean, it's the whole thing.

[201] But you at least had a trade.

[202] You had a commodity when you had land in these places.

[203] You could join a team.

[204] Immediate peer group.

[205] Right.

[206] That's a life -saber.

[207] Yeah, you get somebody to eat lunch with on the first day because you're a member of a team.

[208] And so you have relationships that really was a social lubricant for me. Yeah.

[209] I'm wondering, did your spidey senses get good at that age?

[210] Did you get really good at reading his temperament and where he was at and his being drunk?

[211] Was it the generous one, the violent side, all that stuff?

[212] It wasn't a difficult call.

[213] Okay.

[214] He was not a subtle drunk.

[215] Okay.

[216] I mean, he was kind of drunk.

[217] He was very animated.

[218] Every week in high school, he had Wednesday afternoons off.

[219] So Thursday morning, you'd have to go find the car.

[220] Right, right.

[221] I mean, this wasn't a subtle thing.

[222] You knew every Wednesday he's going to get shit -faced falling down drunk somewhere.

[223] So when he finally gets home, you go through his pockets.

[224] You're finding receipts.

[225] You're seeing where he was.

[226] Then you're getting cabs.

[227] You're going out looking for the car.

[228] Right, right.

[229] You're like an amateur detective.

[230] I'm 15.

[231] I don't even have a driver's license.

[232] And I'm going downtown Kansas City finding the car and driving at home.

[233] Yeah.

[234] And I've got to be to school by a certain time because if you're not in school, the day before a game, you're not eligible.

[235] Right.

[236] So I got to find the car and get to school on time by like one o 'clock or I can't play the next day.

[237] So, I mean, clock's ticking.

[238] I'm looking for the car.

[239] I got to get home because my mom can get to work.

[240] I mean, it's like, you know, every week.

[241] But he was a gregarious guy?

[242] He was a salesman.

[243] Yeah, he was outgoing.

[244] He was a gregarious guy.

[245] And did he get mean?

[246] He must have got mean at times, yeah?

[247] Yeah, he got mean at times.

[248] When he would get agitated, the day my little sister got married.

[249] He was drunk from the night before.

[250] then drunk at the reception, then gets home and things fall apart, he kicks all the windows out of the back of the house, tears the Vena hood off over the range, throws it through the back window.

[251] Uh -huh.

[252] And, I mean, it's that kind of thing.

[253] Sure.

[254] Yeah, pretty theatric.

[255] You don't bring your friends home.

[256] Let's put it that way.

[257] Yeah, and did you slide into a role with mom at all during that period?

[258] Oh, sure.

[259] I mean, I'm the only boy.

[260] I had three sisters, but I'm the only boy.

[261] Two older sisters and a younger sister.

[262] Yeah, so I'm the protector.

[263] Right.

[264] You're getting that job.

[265] Yeah, so was there that defining moment where you've got to, like, throw dad out of the house or stand up to dad or fight dad?

[266] There were many of those.

[267] I mean, because, you know, when he would get drunk and get out of control, the idea was just try to turn the bull.

[268] I mean, this guy, my dad was my size.

[269] Right.

[270] And in shape.

[271] So, I mean, you turned the bull.

[272] You didn't fight the bull.

[273] He's just like wave the red flag and try to get him to go in a room and lock the door.

[274] Uh -huh.

[275] Okay.

[276] So, yeah.

[277] Yeah, because dads have that power over you a little bit, right?

[278] Even when you can logically assess, like, well, he's pretty out of shape.

[279] I can take him.

[280] There's still a block there.

[281] It's like the chain on an elephant's ankle.

[282] Yeah, and you don't want to do that.

[283] I mean, because you know he's drunk and.

[284] Yeah.

[285] And then your mother's going to get upset that her son and husband are in a fight.

[286] You don't want that.

[287] That's not going to make her.

[288] happy either.

[289] Right.

[290] What you want to do is deflect and get her out of there, so.

[291] Did you resent at all having to have that much on your shoulders as a kid?

[292] Every day.

[293] You did?

[294] Every day.

[295] We lived in Oklahoma City.

[296] I was in middle school, and like I say, I had three sisters, and they started marrying a lot.

[297] Okay.

[298] Sure.

[299] I have two sisters that, my two older sisters, were married 11 times between them.

[300] Oh, my goodness.

[301] That's great.

[302] My mom would get along with them, wonderfully.

[303] You would think, now, that can't be.

[304] How do you do that?

[305] You do it by starting very young.

[306] Right.

[307] You have to get married early and often.

[308] Right.

[309] 11 times between them.

[310] Like 14, they would get, to get out.

[311] They were looking to get out of that house because it was violent and drunk.

[312] Well, and they didn't have a dad, right?

[313] So they're married to get out.

[314] Yeah.

[315] You don't have a dad.

[316] The first guy blow up.

[317] in your ears like yeah hell I'll follow you anywhere yeah when I was in Oklahoma City we were all living together because I was the only boy I had my own room I mean it was about the size of that desk there I mean you could but you had to go outside to turn around yeah but there was a window so I left and came home through the window just so I didn't have to go through the house and deal with that yeah so I there was just a single hung window there you know two by three window so I it was first floor it was a one story house so I would come home I'd enter my room through the window when it's time to go I would go out through the window and when it was time to eat I would eat it like one in the morning after everybody went to bed so I didn't have to go in there in the chaos yeah so how did I handle it I was very much a loner and you become very self -reliant you know from having an alcoholic father you depend on yourself yeah yeah I'd have a Yeah, necessity.

[318] Yeah.

[319] I have to say to complete the arc, he did, like your father, he did get sober at the end.

[320] In fact, he went back to the Dallas theological seminary and got his masters of divinity.

[321] And so he did turn to religion.

[322] He did.

[323] And he was sober the last two or three years of his life.

[324] Okay.

[325] That's the only two years I'm planning on going back to drinking.

[326] Yeah, exactly.

[327] He got that backwards.

[328] The hell, I'm going to party my way out, right?

[329] That's right.

[330] So he did that at the end, but he never acknowledged it as a problem.

[331] Oh, he didn't?

[332] No. Oh, okay.

[333] I mean, my mother would get upset and say, okay, look, you do this again, I'm done.

[334] He would show up that day with a case of beer on ice and say, let's go a lake and fish.

[335] I mean, he figured what the hell.

[336] Oh, okay.

[337] Why was he interested in psychology?

[338] Why was a drill bit salesman interested in psychology?

[339] Well, I think he was interested in it from way back as an undergrad.

[340] I think he kind of had that in, and he had that in his head from way, way back, and he was in sales, and so he was really interested in the psychology of sales.

[341] Right.

[342] And so I think that's what really set the hook for him.

[343] Right.

[344] Yeah.

[345] And I'm just looking at you and hearing about him, I have to imagine you have the same thing as me, which is, on one hand, I despise a big chunk of my dad.

[346] And then on the other, I'm so blatantly a carbon copy of my dad.

[347] It's insane.

[348] Every time I turn around, it's like all my good qualities as well, being a salesman, being outgoing, you know, they're him.

[349] That's him.

[350] Well, I have a philosophy.

[351] And I actually wrote this in one of the books that I've done.

[352] And the philosophy is 1075.

[353] And there's some basis for this if you look in the research.

[354] But by the time you're 40, you're going to have experienced 10 defining moments, made seven critical choices, and encountered five pivotal people in your life.

[355] And if you sit down and start making that list out, and a defining moment is one, you're changed in a lasting way.

[356] Before the defining moment, you were one way.

[357] after the defining moment you're different in a lasting way.

[358] That's a defining moment.

[359] A critical choice is one you've made that really put you on a course like you decide to go to college or not go to college.

[360] Sure.

[361] Take a job, not take a job.

[362] I just had my 50th high school reunion.

[363] I didn't go to it, but it caused me to get in touch with a lot of the guys I went to high school with, and we just all talked a bunch.

[364] Yeah.

[365] And it was always interesting to me that when you graduate high school, we had this gymnasium and it had like eight double doors and they all emptied in the parking lot.

[366] I had this vision in my mind that we all went out those doors the same day with the same degree.

[367] Interesting, 50 years later, where everybody wound up.

[368] You know, this guy wound up at a jail.

[369] There's a felon.

[370] This guy's dead.

[371] This guy's a successful dentist.

[372] This guy's this.

[373] It's interesting to see.

[374] This guy's Dr. Phil.

[375] Based on, yeah, based on critical choices.

[376] it puts you on a course and then you have five pivotal people and it's not uncommon for a parent to be on that list and my dad is one of my five pivotal people and a pivotal person can be a powerful positive influence and that same person can be a powerful negative influence my dad was powerful positive because he was the hardest working person I've ever seen in my life so that was a great role model for me and I I saw the way he worked and he never quit.

[377] I mean, there was no quit in him at all.

[378] And so I saw that, and he taught me that by watching him.

[379] And then he was an alcoholic, and so I've never had a drink since I was 16 years old.

[380] Really?

[381] I just don't, I've never had a drink.

[382] I hope you're using opiates or smoking weed or something.

[383] I don't like an altered state of consciousness.

[384] You don't.

[385] Well, do you really know?

[386] No, though.

[387] Yes, because I've had surgeries and stuff.

[388] And I hate it.

[389] I get in that, I get in that, that zone.

[390] You feel a lot of control.

[391] Right before you go, and I feel like I'm falling backwards down a hill.

[392] It scares these shit out of me. Oh, I love it.

[393] I want that fall to last for like 10 years.

[394] Oh, my God.

[395] I hate it.

[396] It scares me. It does.

[397] Well, I have to imagine, again, I'm going to armchair side.

[398] Yes, the hell yeah.

[399] Let's see what you got.

[400] Yeah, because I went and sat in your.

[401] I will throw the bullshit flag.

[402] I know you will.

[403] But I went into your lair, and I was at your mercy.

[404] So now you're here.

[405] Okay.

[406] So just from my armchair psychoanalysis, dad played football, you played football.

[407] Dad did psychology.

[408] You did psychology.

[409] There's a story behind that.

[410] Well, I'm going to hear it.

[411] But, you know, on the surface, you really, this is very complicated because this guy is really the source of all the, but what I was going to say about you not wanting to be powerless or not have control in that mental state of being put under, in my experience, guys like us who had our childhood, control is the commodity we want the most, just because we had zero of it.

[412] I think it's why I love cars.

[413] I think we might have talked about that on your show.

[414] It's like that was the real appeal of the car for me was, oh, I get in this thing, I turn the wheel, it does the same thing every time I hit the gas.

[415] It does the same thing.

[416] It's all predictable.

[417] I'm in control.

[418] That was euphoric for me. Yeah, plus there's that sense of power.

[419] Yeah.

[420] I mean, because when I first got into cars, I mean, you're flowing pure testosterone.

[421] There's no blood in our veins when we're 15 or 16.

[422] It's pure testosterone, and you hear that rumble.

[423] Yeah.

[424] I mean, I had shitty cars, but I put dumps on them, you know.

[425] I put straight pipes on them.

[426] Oh, sure, sure.

[427] Made a ton of noise and went nowhere.

[428] Yeah, exactly.

[429] I had a six -banger Mustang with straight pipes on it.

[430] But, okay, so how did you get into psychology that differs from that?

[431] Well, and by the way, part of what you said is right, and it's okay with me that it's right, because like I said, he was a pivotal person, which I fully acknowledge, both negative and positive.

[432] He's the reason I don't drink or do drugs, which is a good thing, I think.

[433] So even the negative influence had a positive outcome, and he taught me an amazing work ethic, and he was an incredible athlete.

[434] And I think what athletic skills I got genetically came from him.

[435] So, you know, I recognize that he has influences on me and that I channel him in some respects.

[436] I don't attempt to deny that at all.

[437] When he was in psychology, they passed this law that you had to be licensed, which you didn't have to for a long time in psychology.

[438] The state -by -state thing?

[439] Yeah, state -by -state.

[440] And so he had to go qualify and take the test, and he had been out of school for like 15 years.

[441] That's a hard thing to do.

[442] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[443] And so he found it really, really difficult.

[444] So what I did was get all of his books, because I read really fast, and I can't add two and two and get five every time, but I read really fast and retain really well.

[445] So I got all of his books from graduate school.

[446] I read them all, outlined them all, and tutored him to go do that.

[447] And then it came time for me to finish college.

[448] And I thought, I've already done the entire graduate curriculum in psychology.

[449] So what's my major going to be?

[450] Uh -huh.

[451] Yeah, I'm going to do that.

[452] So it was the path of least resistance.

[453] At the time, for the B .A. I was either going to do law or medicine or psychology.

[454] I wasn't sure which.

[455] But that made the decision real easy at the undergraduate level.

[456] Again, really interesting to me that you helped him that much.

[457] That must have been incredibly time -consuming.

[458] And I would not have had the benevolence to help my dad with something like that.

[459] Why were you willing to do that?

[460] He needed it.

[461] He needed it.

[462] Yeah, he needed it.

[463] I mean, my theory is this.

[464] You don't have to like everything somebody does to like them or love them.

[465] Oh, 100%.

[466] I mean, and I didn't like that part of him.

[467] But when he was sober and we interacted, I really admired him greatly.

[468] Oh, that's nice.

[469] I mean, I really admired him.

[470] I thought.

[471] And you wanted his approval.

[472] He had guts.

[473] I mean, he had balls.

[474] He was willing to reach out and do things.

[475] And he was a pilot, and I'm a pilot.

[476] Right.

[477] Again, it just keeps getting.

[478] Yeah.

[479] And he was an incredible pilot.

[480] Really?

[481] I mean, the guy could fly an airplane through the eye of a needle.

[482] I mean, he was a precision pilot.

[483] I mean, really, really good.

[484] He also flew drunk some and tried to take me flying drunk on one occasion.

[485] And so, you know, it spilled into everything but when he was sober he was really good at what he did we are listening to a podcast right now that i guarantee you would love called doctor death have you heard of this i've listened to it you did did you oh my god isn't it yeah next level engaging i mean it's the most horrific scenario imaginable it is really a great reminder that the person that graduates last in their class at medical school, you'd call that person doctor, too.

[486] Yes.

[487] And I was really trying to drill down into why that podcast is more horrific than hearing even one about a serial killer.

[488] And my conclusion was, I think the reason it's so troubling is that it's rare that we make ourselves vulnerable to people, but we make ourselves vulnerable to surgeons.

[489] And when that vulnerability is, you know, crossed, it's doubly painful.

[490] There's something right that's there's more anguish attached to that because you've been.

[491] But you know why it scares you so much is because people are volunteering.

[492] In serial killers, people don't volunteer.

[493] Right.

[494] These people are volunteering.

[495] And I have this theory that really, I don't know how to explain this and I should.

[496] You know, when people see something like Chris Watts recently, you know, that killed his wife and two babies.

[497] I don't know that one.

[498] It was all over the press.

[499] just not too long ago.

[500] You know, you see these family annihilators and serial killers.

[501] When people say, who does that kind of thing?

[502] When they say that to me, it's not rhetorical.

[503] I mean, people ask me that question.

[504] They want to answer it, right.

[505] Because they want to say, what are the red flags?

[506] How do we spot this?

[507] How do we keep these people out of our lives?

[508] And these people that go to these docks, I mean, they're volunteering themselves.

[509] They're being vulnerable like you're talking about.

[510] And I'm astounded every day because I know what people are capable of that people will go get on an airliner and they get in and turn right.

[511] They don't even look left.

[512] No, no, yeah.

[513] They don't even look in the cockpit.

[514] I want to look at some bitch in the eye.

[515] I mean, I want to look him or her in the eye and just see.

[516] Are you here today?

[517] Look anguish.

[518] Do they look foggy?

[519] Yes.

[520] I do.

[521] I want to look at me in the eye.

[522] I am the same way.

[523] When my wife and I are in New York and we get a ride in a car to the airport, even if it's five in the morning, we're dead tired, I stare the whole time, the whole hour and a half, I'm staring at that rearview mirror to watch that this person doesn't fall asleep.

[524] Because I'm just assuming the absolute worst.

[525] She's assuming the best, and I'm assuming the worst.

[526] And I have caught one or two of these guys nodding off.

[527] And I'll be like, hey, hey, buddy.

[528] how you doing?

[529] Do you want to put on the radio or?

[530] Yeah, you know, what you need to also do, and you're going to think I'm paranoid about this, but, you know, I lived in Dallas before I moved out here, they didn't have great regulation on the cabs there, no inspections.

[531] You get on there, there'd be tires so bald on these.

[532] You could see the air and the tire is so thin.

[533] These guys get on the highway, go 80 miles an hour driving you into town, tires that, honest to God, I wouldn't put them on a tire swing.

[534] Right.

[535] And this guy's driving 80 miles an hour.

[536] I get in.

[537] I look to see.

[538] is this guy got decent tires on this thing?

[539] Because, honestly, God, they're doing 80, 90 because they're going to get in there fast and get back.

[540] That's right.

[541] Quicker they do it.

[542] The more money, they're going to right.

[543] They've got the pinprick eyes, you know.

[544] They're on drugs.

[545] But again, my wife's not that way.

[546] There's a lot of people I know that aren't that way.

[547] I think that comes from growing up in an environment where you got to be watching people.

[548] But a lot of people grow up in a household where the adults can be trusted.

[549] It's a safe place, and they don't have to be on high, fucking alert at all times.

[550] And I think when you grow up in an environment where you've got to be on high alert, you're just on high alert the rest of your life.

[551] See, again, you're going to think I'm paranoid.

[552] I'm paranoid about you thinking I'm paranoid.

[553] I didn't do what most parents do.

[554] We grow our kids up saying, you mind adults.

[555] Don't tell you to do something.

[556] You do what they tell you.

[557] You mind adults, right?

[558] I mean, that's what parents tell.

[559] I never told my kids that.

[560] Absolutely not.

[561] But that's what we grew up with.

[562] You, Two things.

[563] You know, Christian principles.

[564] You give people the benefit of the doubt.

[565] Bullshit.

[566] Mind adults.

[567] Bullshit.

[568] Uh -huh.

[569] Think for yourself.

[570] Evaluate that adult.

[571] And if you've got some adult telling you, hey, get in the car with me. You know what?

[572] Scream, yell, do whatever.

[573] And if you're wrong, it'll be okay.

[574] Right.

[575] I'd rather live with you.

[576] Yeah.

[577] If this was the principal of the school and he was trying to just get you to go back to school and you threw a fit and called him a pervert and you were wrong, I got your back.

[578] Don't worry about it.

[579] Don't worry about it.

[580] I did not teach my kids that you mind adults.

[581] I have yet to either, yeah.

[582] Again, I trusted adults and regretted it at times and you learned the hard way.

[583] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[584] We've all been there.

[585] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[586] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[587] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[588] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Balin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[589] It's called Mr. Balin's Medical Mysteries.

[590] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[591] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[592] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[593] What's up, guys?

[594] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[595] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[596] Every episode, I bring on a friend.

[597] and have a real conversation.

[598] And I don't mean just friends.

[599] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[600] The list goes on.

[601] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[602] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[603] When you, the first college you went to to play football, you were in a game where you lost 100 to 6.

[604] I wasn't in that game.

[605] Oh, you weren't in that game.

[606] I was on that team.

[607] Oh, okay.

[608] But there's a, this is a short story.

[609] Okay.

[610] There was something called the Hong Kong flu at the time.

[611] It ravaged our team.

[612] Okay.

[613] We were all in the infirmary.

[614] We were playing Houston and coach Bill Yohman.

[615] We understand y 'all are sick.

[616] It'll cost a fortune if you cancel the game.

[617] The school needs the money.

[618] We know everybody's sick.

[619] Come down, let's just play the game.

[620] We're not going to run the score upon you.

[621] We know you guys are sick.

[622] We had a guy playing quarterback that hadn't taken a snap since the seventh grade.

[623] We go down there, and This asshole runs the score up 100 to 6.

[624] Uh -huh.

[625] And I'm laying in the infirmary listening to this on the radio.

[626] What an asshole.

[627] So you end up transferring at some point to a school in Texas.

[628] Right.

[629] And then you graduate and then you get your master's.

[630] And then you get your Ph .D. in clinical psychology.

[631] Now, I understand how you ended up with the BA because you already knew the stuff.

[632] Why then decide to go get the Ph .D.?

[633] Well, a bachelor's degree in psychology.

[634] psychology is good for selling shoes, insurance.

[635] Drilling equipment.

[636] Driving a truck.

[637] It's absolutely non -marketable degree.

[638] I mean, it's like a degree in history.

[639] You can teach or nothing.

[640] You can't practice?

[641] No. Oh, okay.

[642] It's worthless.

[643] I thought psychiatrists required an eight -year education, but psychologists only required a four -year.

[644] Am I wrong on that?

[645] No, you have to get four -year undergraduate, then you have to get a master's degree, which is usually two years, then the PhD, which is another four years, and you have to do a year's internship and residency type thing.

[646] Even for just a psychologist?

[647] Just psychologist?

[648] What do you think?

[649] You're thinking therapist.

[650] No, well, maybe I am.

[651] I just, I know that psychiatrists can prescribe drugs and psychologists can't.

[652] So my assumption, which I've now made an ass out of me, is, is that, oh, they must not have a PhD or a medical degree because they can't prescribe medicine.

[653] there's it's a phd not an md the psychology right right okay which is a clinical distinction so and your your theory is that's not a real doctor okay i get it now no no no no no no hold that just imagine you're mean you know running out of time you know one group can prescribe medicine the other group can't i just assume they didn't go to school as long that's a that's a not a crazy assumption.

[654] No. It's wrong, as we just learned, but it's not crazy.

[655] Now, what is it a therapist?

[656] Are they four -year?

[657] Is anyone out there giving advice with a four -year degree?

[658] Therapists don't have to have a PhD, do they?

[659] Mine doesn't.

[660] Well, politically, things have changed where you can get subdoctoral licensure now and become a licensed marriage and family therapist or something like that with a master's degree and you can be an independent practice okay okay so uh you explain to me this dissertation in in the reader's digest version is my condition psychosomatic is that was that the conclusion of your no what i went to school you go through clinical psychology which because you can get admitted into doctoral programs in like school psychology educational psychology which is different counseling, psychology, experimental psychology, all different kinds.

[661] And then there's clinical psychology, which is what you typically think about as a therapist.

[662] They deal with neurosis, psychosis, personality disorders.

[663] They tend to see patients in one -on -one groups, things like that.

[664] And that was a program that I was admitted to.

[665] But then they also launched a program in behavioral medicine, which is essentially medical psychology.

[666] Okay.

[667] And so I completed the core programs in both.

[668] And so I spent half of my time at the Southwestern Medical School in Dallas and half of my time at North Texas State University where I did the clinical program and I did the behavioral medicine program, a lot of it at the Southwestern Medical School in Dallas and Department of Physical Medicine.

[669] And that's where I was working on the rheumatoid arthritis.

[670] And my dissertation was adopted by the American College of Rehabilitative Medicine as the treatment of choice for rheumatoid arthritis at the time.

[671] Now, it's long since been surpassed since then.

[672] They have better protocols now.

[673] Well, even now they're at the precipice of even changing direction through gut health and stuff.

[674] It's going to get radical.

[675] In 1978, it was a good protocol.

[676] And what was the psychological component of that autoimmune?

[677] immune disorder.

[678] Well, there's a huge stress component to it.

[679] There's huge relaxation components to it.

[680] And it was, the treatments of choice in were gold, penicillamine, cryotherapy.

[681] And I was doing biofeedback and relaxation training and some different modalities that were non -invasive that proved to be more efficacious than the others yeah i got to say i monitor my diet like crazy and i always underestimate the stress component and i will have been eating pretty perfect and i'll have kind of a flare up and i'll be so frustrated and then i'll get realistic about what maybe my last month was like and i'm like oh shit i keep underestimating probably the biggest yeah um okay so when you got out you went to work with your dad again i find this interesting because you and your dad, you joined his practice, right?

[682] He had a practice.

[683] Did you enjoy that?

[684] No. No, it was really important to my mother.

[685] My mother is a saint.

[686] She really wanted me to do it, and so I did it for a period of time.

[687] And then you went from there, and then you started doing seminars, right?

[688] This is between CSI and the practice with dad.

[689] Was seminars?

[690] It kind of overlapped.

[691] It overlapped.

[692] It was.

[693] Are we, our, Were they, it was called Pathways?

[694] And was it similar at all to like the other self -help things at that time like Est or what became landmark?

[695] Was it that type of like application type self -help?

[696] I like to think of it as mainstream, non -radical, non -bazardest.

[697] Oh, okay.

[698] Because at the time, this is when HMOs and PPOs were really coming into vogue.

[699] And insurance coverage for therapy was really tough for people.

[700] And so what I put together was a life skills training protocol because so many people have challenges in activities of daily living, but they don't have mental illness.

[701] Right.

[702] They just have humanness, right?

[703] Yeah, but they don't necessarily have a good strategy for life.

[704] They don't understand goals acquisition, how to set goals and go after them, and things like that.

[705] So I put together a protocol that just said, look, you go to school and they teach you how to read and write and a little geography and history.

[706] But nobody teaches you how to live.

[707] Nobody teaches you about motivation.

[708] They don't teach you how to manage mood swings.

[709] They don't teach you how to resolve conflict with your significant others or whatever.

[710] So I said, I'm going to put together a protocol where you can actually teach these things to people and do it in a group where it's affordable.

[711] Right.

[712] Because it used to be, if you would come to see me, even back then, it would usually be about $1 ,000 before you ever got to sit down with me. You had to do a battery of psychometric test.

[713] You had to go through intake interviews and all sorts of things like that.

[714] And so you might spend $1 ,000 to get to the point where you said, okay, now let's start talking about what you should do.

[715] You could do this whole thing for like $200.

[716] Right.

[717] And get all of this information, a lot of which is what I would tell 80 % of the people as a foundation that they needed to build on to begin with.

[718] Yeah.

[719] So I did this as kind of a life skills training, and I had people in there, everything from CEOs, from Fortune 500 companies to housekeepers.

[720] Right.

[721] It made it very affordable for people.

[722] And was this a synergy of a lot of things?

[723] What percentage of that model was, you know, psychology in the academic sense, and which was like your own life experience?

[724] Well, you know, you draw from everything, right?

[725] And I grew up in athletics.

[726] And so a lot of the technology of coaching, I've always tried to coach people.

[727] I don't like this therapy model where you come in and sit down and say, well, how does that make you feel?

[728] Well, okay, how does that make you feel?

[729] Well, how does that make you feel?

[730] Look, this is not me. Right.

[731] That's not me. If you want to do that, go see somebody else.

[732] A lot of times I would have people come in and it was very obvious.

[733] The solution is very obvious.

[734] I can either tell you now or I can babysit you for six months and then tell you.

[735] So I'll just tell you now and you can go do it.

[736] So it was kind of a life coaching sort of thing because I'd been coached all my life.

[737] And I've been married 42 years.

[738] So I am very coachable.

[739] So you draw from everything.

[740] and I know a lot of 75 -cent words.

[741] I just try not to use them.

[742] So I try to put everything in very common -sensical terms for people, and I did then as well.

[743] I do the same thing now.

[744] Yeah, I get into this debate sometimes because I am a big proponent of therapy.

[745] I think it's great for people.

[746] But I also have been in AA for 15 years, and we don't do that in AA.

[747] You come in and you tell us like nine -horse shit things, and we go, hey, we had the same exact lies.

[748] You got to go do X, Y, and Z. Like, let's get to into action, right?

[749] So there's a real shortcut in that.

[750] I think primarily because it's life or death for the people that enter, that you don't have two years to have a breakthrough.

[751] It's like, no, start acting a certain way and your thinking may change and catch up with your actions.

[752] If you can start with just your actions, we know what are good actions, right, that are productive.

[753] Yeah, and I have a theory about why AA is such a powerful model.

[754] And I believe it is, by the way.

[755] I'm a big fan of AA.

[756] I don't think it's the only thing people need to do.

[757] Right.

[758] But it's one of the things is like necessary but not sufficient.

[759] You've got to do a lot of things, but I think I'm a big proponent of the 12 -step program.

[760] And I like it so much because I think any time you want to achieve something and you surround yourself with like -minded people, how can that not be good?

[761] I mean, I don't care.

[762] If you're wanting to build a house or change your life in any way, whatever, and you surround yourself with people that want the same thing and want it for you, then that's got to be good.

[763] Yeah.

[764] And it's not a success -only journey, but it's got to be good.

[765] Yeah.

[766] I mean, the fact that you can go in there and you can identify somebody who has what you want, that in and of itself, who has mentors in life.

[767] Where does one find a mentor?

[768] How do you bump into someone that has what you want?

[769] So that in and of itself is like a great resource.

[770] And experience is important.

[771] You know, I said I'm a pilot.

[772] And like if I'm getting ready to fly from Kansas City to Chicago, you know, the thing that I want to hear most, I mean, I'll check weather and all that kind of stuff.

[773] But if somebody lands that just came in from Chicago, I'm going to go to the trouble to step over and say, hey, I'm getting ready to go.

[774] go to Chicago, what did you experience along the way?

[775] Yeah.

[776] And not that it won't change before I get there, but that's good information.

[777] He's got experience that I don't have.

[778] And when you go to AA, you've got somebody that's maybe they're six months ahead of you, maybe a year ahead of you, two years ahead of you, they can tell you where the potholes are.

[779] Well, the other thing that I really like about AA, and as I was thinking of your approach and trying to distill it down, and I wonder if you would be able to distill it down into what you think your kind of core superpower is, it appears to me, and I could be wrong, that your primary goal is to help people get honest with themselves.

[780] And that sounds so simple.

[781] I actually have great sympathy and compassion for people who can't get honest with themselves because, you know, in A, there's an actual system.

[782] There's a couple steps that help you get honest with yourself.

[783] because we are terrible observers of ourselves.

[784] We're reacting to biochemical things and we're drawing conclusions that are not true and we're not factoring in what happened maybe 11 hours before we did something stupid.

[785] And if you're not really paying attention, you can be the victim of that for a long time in all kinds of ways, right?

[786] Yeah, insight is the most critical aspect of change and the most difficult thing to achieve.

[787] The ability to step outside yourself and look back at yourself in an objective way with no distortion is really hard.

[788] Yeah, it's almost impossible.

[789] It's really hard.

[790] But if you are working with somebody yourself or a patient or a friend and that person has insight, they have the ability to say, you know, ask themselves, what am I really doing here and why am I really doing it once you get to that point it's all downhill from there because once they can take an objective look at themselves you're really starting to make progress now and I you know you said what's the secret power I you know I've spent my life since I was 12 years old and I remember the day it happened focusing on why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do.

[791] I mean, think about that.

[792] If you understand why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do, you've got a huge edge on life.

[793] You've got to, whether it's relationships, sales, whatever it might be, you've got a huge advantage in life.

[794] Yeah, and I think a couple things.

[795] One, it's, again, as you pointed out, we don't get any training in high school.

[796] There's no attempt to point out to people that we are just inherently biased and we have confirmation bias.

[797] And we need a system quite often.

[798] We need something that's either collective or bigger than us that can help us, right?

[799] It's just we're at the center of the experiment at all times.

[800] We're not back behind glass watching.

[801] We don't even teach people that they ought to pay attention to that.

[802] We don't even teach people that they ought to pay attention to what somebody's motivations might be.

[803] be right towards you're selling me a car it matters that you're the one selling it yeah when you're telling me about the car who's going to get the money if I buy it you right that I'd rather hear from an independent mechanic but we don't you think well that's obvious but a lot of people don't think about the source that they're getting their information from right whether it's somebody criticizing them or whatever so as much as you've had an interest in in psychology you're very very entrepreneurial i'm hugely motivated by money i wanted it we didn't have it and i had to get some of that goddamn money i had to get some of it it's been a big preoccupation of my life i assume many many people's but what part of your brain what what percentage of your brain was like i need to build the better mouse trap well survival i mean when you're poor then i think old sayings get to be old sayings because they're profound, little saying necessity is the mother of invention.

[804] That's been really important in my life because I've been really poor.

[805] Right.

[806] And so when you've been really poor, you get entrepreneurial.

[807] I hear these people, and I haven't on the show sometimes saying, you know, I haven't had a job for two years.

[808] I've been trying to get a job.

[809] No, you haven't.

[810] You've not been trying to get a job for two years.

[811] You cannot.

[812] You cannot try to get a job for two years and not get a job.

[813] You can get a job in two hours if you want to get a job.

[814] I have been homeless without a job, and I can get a job in an hour.

[815] Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

[816] I have been on the street where I start at the end of a block and start walking down and go in every door and say, do you need a storeroom cleaned out?

[817] Do you need the weeds out of that parking lot?

[818] Do you need these boxes moved?

[819] When can you start now?

[820] Now.

[821] I can start right now.

[822] And you start, you want to know what I get paid?

[823] What you're going to get paid?

[824] It doesn't matter.

[825] I need a job.

[826] I'll start working.

[827] I hope you treat me right.

[828] You got a job.

[829] And if you do it well, they say, can you come back tomorrow.

[830] You've got a job.

[831] Come on.

[832] That's entrepreneur.

[833] I hear people say they can't get a job.

[834] You can get a job.

[835] You may be saving yourself for management.

[836] But if you need a job, you can get a job.

[837] And if you're hungry, you'll get a job.

[838] How did you come up with courtroom sciences?

[839] Because this is a fascinating part of your story.

[840] I don't think a lot of people know.

[841] I was intrigued learning it.

[842] My focus within behavioral medicine was brain and central nervous system.

[843] If you get hurt on the job or in an accident and you break your leg or your hip, you know, it's $50 ,000 damages.

[844] They settle it and go on.

[845] But if you get a brain injury or a spinal cord injury, now you're going to trial.

[846] And they're hiring experts because now you're talking millions of dollars.

[847] Sometimes you're talking a life plan.

[848] Somebody 21 gets paralyzed.

[849] You're talking a life plan, which is going to be millions of dollars to cross 50 years.

[850] They start hiring experts.

[851] I started getting hired a lot, either plaintiff or defense side, to come in and evaluate, you know, what is the functional impact of this?

[852] How does this affect their activities of daily living?

[853] What's this going to mean in terms of loss of consortium with their?

[854] partners what I mean what's all this going to mean what's their rehabilitation course going to be what are you going to have to retrain neurologically yeah what's the grand total of yeah and so I would testify and the assessment was that I did a pretty good job of that right that I was a good communicator I did my homework I you're good on a witness stand yeah and so I did that a fair amount and then they started saying well they're going to have your counterpart on the other side can help us design the cross -examination for them.

[855] Well, you evaluate their report, find the holes in it, write us their cross -examination.

[856] And then pretty soon it's like, you know, our CEO is a terrible witness.

[857] We need him to testify like you do.

[858] Can you work with him and start training him?

[859] Oh, wow.

[860] So pretty soon it got to where my testimony became a small part of what I was doing with the trial team.

[861] Because then it was like, what kind of jury is going to understand what you're saying?

[862] What kind of jury are we looking for?

[863] Yeah, so juror elimination.

[864] You're now being vocal on.

[865] So it got to the point where I had a practice that was just overwhelming.

[866] And then you go to Miami from Texas.

[867] There's a trial in Miami.

[868] You go and you're going to be there Tuesday afternoon.

[869] You know, the wheels of justice turned very slow, gets pushed to Wednesday.

[870] gets pushed to Thursday.

[871] You've now been gone three days.

[872] You've got all these patients, but you can't be gone all the time.

[873] So you have to make a choice.

[874] This is one of your pivotal.

[875] Exactly.

[876] And I said, you know what?

[877] I really could not decide whether I want to do psychology, medicine, or law.

[878] Now, I was just going to say, it's funny you found your way through psychology to law.

[879] When I graduated, I did medical psychology and psychology.

[880] Then when I graduated, I did a year's postdoctoral fellowship in legal psychology.

[881] So now I've got medicine, psychology, and law.

[882] And so I said, if I want to do this, I'm going to do it right.

[883] So I closed the practice and opened courtroom sciences.

[884] And we did it the right way.

[885] Full -sized federal courtroom replica to mock try cases, full graphics department that ran 24 hours a day, 365, five days a year, building courtroom exhibits.

[886] And this was a very successful business.

[887] Yes.

[888] How was it, was it easy to stay ethical in that situation?

[889] Because I could see it easily being compromising, depending on whether you're being hired by the plaintiff or the defense.

[890] Well, you know, both sides do what they can to win.

[891] Yeah, it's their obligation to do everything they can.

[892] What you're saying is, does it boil down to you're entitled to the best defense money can buy?

[893] What we did...

[894] I guess more specific, and let me say, if you were to evaluate somebody who, let's say, was suing somebody for X amount of money because of some brain damage, and you were to look at that and you, you know, if you're working for the defense, you could likely say, well, this person's only going to require $300 ,000 worth of care going forward.

[895] Now, if you're working for the prosecution, you might feel like they need a million and a half dollars.

[896] Like, it would vary based on who hires you, or it could vary, right?

[897] How does one stay?

[898] And what are the ethical parameters?

[899] My wife and I sometimes watch these legal shows, and she's disgusted by what the defense does.

[900] And I try to say, that is their obligation as lawyers to provide the single best defense possible.

[901] That's what they're there to do to keep the system functional.

[902] So, weirdly, I wonder if an expert witness falls into that.

[903] I'm curious, what are the ethics of that?

[904] There's a difference between expert witness and what we did as trial scientists.

[905] We don't make the facts.

[906] We just report on them.

[907] And we teach people to tell the truth effectively.

[908] And I'm going to present my facts as powerfully as I can.

[909] And if you don't like that, then you should have hired me. Uh -huh.

[910] But do you agree, though, that you could, there was some wiggle room within your assessment of what this thing was ultimately going to cost?

[911] Or did you never have to give that kind of?

[912] Well, no, there's an economist that comes in and does that.

[913] What I do is say, here's the reality.

[914] And, you know, we've spent most of our time on the defense side.

[915] And, you know, plaintiffs come in and try to blow things up and get punitive damages.

[916] and, you know, they try to get, you know, $1 .6 billion and all that.

[917] Yeah.

[918] Trust me, that ain't for the client.

[919] That's for the lawyers.

[920] Right.

[921] I didn't lose any sleep.

[922] Uh -huh.

[923] Believe me. But you say, is it, is it unethical?

[924] It's unethical if you lie, make up facts, hide documents, or whatever that we never did.

[925] We presented our case effectively, powerfully.

[926] and I was in a trial one time where the other side objected in this rural courtroom, the other side objected to our graphics and said, we object to those they're too persuasive.

[927] I shit you not.

[928] We object to those they're too persuasive, and the judge sustained the objection.

[929] Did that experience overall have any impact on how you look at the jurisprudence system globally?

[930] Did it, did it, did it taint you one way or another, or did it disillusion anything for you?

[931] No, I understand, you know, that the show Bull, which is...

[932] You're a creator of that, yeah, or you're...

[933] I am.

[934] It's based on my life before the Dr. Phil show.

[935] Okay.

[936] Oh, yeah.

[937] Dr. Jason Bull is Dr. Phil McGraw.

[938] Did you have a hand in casting the lead?

[939] You must have.

[940] I did.

[941] It's tricky to cast yourself, right?

[942] Yeah, I got somebody looked...

[943] I'd want Brad...

[944] I would only...

[945] I would only...

[946] I would only cast Brad Pitt to play me. But my experience is that juries have a collective IQ of at least 1 ,200, and they tend to get it right.

[947] That was your conclusion.

[948] I'm a big fan of the jury system.

[949] Oh, that's cool.

[950] They tend to get it right.

[951] Good.

[952] I'm glad that was your kind of walk away.

[953] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[954] So what people may or may, I know Monica, did you know this, that how Dr. Phil met Oprah was that Oprah was involved in some case in the Texas beef?

[955] Mad cow case.

[956] Oh, I remember that was a big thing with her, but I didn't know that that was the connection.

[957] I had forgotten.

[958] And then the name of the case, the trial, doesn't let you know it's mad cow.

[959] So, yeah, that's what it was?

[960] Yeah.

[961] She did a show and she had an expert on that was talking about.

[962] mad cow disease that had really invaded the British beef supply.

[963] The allegation was they had diseased cattle with brain disease and they would grind those that kill those cattle, grind them up, mix them into the food and feed them back to the other cattle.

[964] That's what I walked away with knowing.

[965] Is that right or wrong?

[966] Well, that's what they did.

[967] Yeah.

[968] Okay.

[969] And their theory was that that infects the other cows.

[970] And so now you're eating tainted beef.

[971] And this guy was saying that's actually happening in America.

[972] And Oprah just offhandedly said, whoa, I'm not ever eating another burger.

[973] Oh, okay.

[974] And when that show aired, the beef futures on the Chicago Board of Trade went limit down.

[975] Oh, ooh.

[976] You know, it goes down to a certain point where they They closed the board.

[977] Uh -huh.

[978] It went limit down.

[979] And so they said that that cattlemen sued her.

[980] They think about this like ranchers out there riding horses.

[981] These are feedlots.

[982] They're talking about tens of thousands of cattle in pens that are fattened up and sent to the slaughterhouses.

[983] These aren't guys on horses.

[984] These are businessmen.

[985] No Marlboro men.

[986] No. No. And they sued her in Amarillo for over a billion dollars.

[987] And I was on the defense team.

[988] And it went on a while, yeah.

[989] Oh, yeah.

[990] We moved.

[991] Three years maybe or something?

[992] We moved to Amarillo.

[993] Yeah, I worked on the case with her for over two years before it went to trial.

[994] And when it went to trial, we all moved to Amarillo.

[995] And she and I and the lead council and a couple other people lived in a bed and breakfast out.

[996] out on the edge of town for about two and a half months.

[997] And what was her relevance in that period?

[998] Because I'm a little hazy on, like, when was she the queen?

[999] Was she already the queen of the universe?

[1000] Yeah, big time.

[1001] So what was it like for you with the history you had and mostly Oklahoma, Texas, all this stuff, to find yourself with Oprah?

[1002] Was it exciting?

[1003] I had never seen an Oprah show start to finish because it was on during the day, but you can't be on planet Earth and not know who Oprah is.

[1004] That's right.

[1005] And I had just finished defending Diane Sawyer in 2020 on the Food Lion case.

[1006] And you may remember that.

[1007] They put undercover people into food line grocery stores and found that they were taking expired meat, wrapping it up in colored cellophane, tripling the price and putting it in the gourmet section.

[1008] What a business model.

[1009] How do I do that?

[1010] And so they got sued when they did that expose on them.

[1011] And so I just got through defending them in that case.

[1012] But at the time, we represented ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, every airline in the world, half of the Fortune 500.

[1013] So, I mean, we...

[1014] You had a beastly company there.

[1015] But were you starstruck, though, by Oprah?

[1016] Was it exciting?

[1017] I was very anxious to meet her.

[1018] I flew up to Chicago to meet her, and her assistant came in and said, Ms. Winfrey will be in a few minutes.

[1019] She has 15 minutes.

[1020] And I said, no, that doesn't work for me. And she said, what do you mean?

[1021] It doesn't work for you.

[1022] I said, there's no point in meeting her for 15 minutes.

[1023] That doesn't work.

[1024] And she said, well, I'm sorry.

[1025] And I said, well, you know what, look, it ain't my ass getting sued.

[1026] If that's what she wants to do, that's fine with me. She'll get out of it, what she puts into it.

[1027] And so she said, well, and she left the room.

[1028] And pretty soon Oprah came in, and eight hours later, we finished our initial meeting.

[1029] And she walked me out to the car, and she said, by the way, did you tell my assistant, it ain't my ass getting sued?

[1030] I don't give a shit what she does.

[1031] I said, well, yeah, I mean, I hadn't made it.

[1032] you, so I wasn't, no disrespect to you.

[1033] And she just died laughing.

[1034] And from the minute I met her, you would fall in love with her if she was the secretary, if she was the star, if she was the janitor that cleaned the place up.

[1035] You understand within five minutes why she's the queen of all media.

[1036] Uh -huh.

[1037] She's just special.

[1038] Warm, engaging, sparkle.

[1039] authentic.

[1040] You just, you get it instantly.

[1041] Yeah.

[1042] And I knew right then this will be the most powerful witness that you've ever seen, and that's how it turned out.

[1043] And she won that case ultimately, yeah.

[1044] And because of that relationship you guys created during that trial, she invited you on to the show to do a segment and give advice.

[1045] And that immediately turned into a once a week deal, yeah?

[1046] Yeah, I was on the night the verdict came in, and that trial really bothered her, because I remember one night about 3 a .m., I hear this peck on my bedroom door, peck, peck, peck, peck, and I opened the door, and it's Oprah in her footed pajamas.

[1047] And she says, can you come out?

[1048] As we go in the game room, and she said, I don't get it.

[1049] This isn't right.

[1050] Why am I here?

[1051] Uh -huh.

[1052] And it's a famous story she tells all the time.

[1053] I said, you're here because these good old boys are suing you for over a billion dollars.

[1054] And if you don't get your head in the game, they're going to hand you your ass on a platter.

[1055] And she's like, okay.

[1056] And that was a real turning point for her.

[1057] It's like it's not about being fair.

[1058] It's about winning this thing.

[1059] It's what is.

[1060] Uh -huh.

[1061] You are here.

[1062] It's like I would never go in a restaurant.

[1063] lobby and start a fist fight.

[1064] But if somebody swings on me, you know what?

[1065] I'm in a fist fight.

[1066] Right.

[1067] Right.

[1068] And you don't belong here.

[1069] You shouldn't be here, but somebody's swinging on you.

[1070] You are here.

[1071] Right.

[1072] So you're in a fight.

[1073] So you better come present and win this.

[1074] Yeah.

[1075] And she did.

[1076] And she was a powerful, compelling witness.

[1077] Wow.

[1078] Your first time on that show were you, I mean, what was your anxiety level?

[1079] Anytime you do something, you get up for it, you know, you get, you know, let's go, let's go do a good job.

[1080] You know, I was pumped to do it, but I wasn't really nervous about it because I didn't really have any expectations.

[1081] Right, you didn't, you weren't thinking like, oh, based on this performance, I will either have this huge empire one day or I won't.

[1082] You were not even evaluating that.

[1083] Yeah, because the producer called me, and Oprah had made a commitment to her audience, the things that she found to value that she would share with her audience, whether it was a hair, a hair, or a book or whatever.

[1084] Legal counsel.

[1085] And she said, I found you of great value.

[1086] So her producer called and asked me to come and do this show.

[1087] And I declined.

[1088] I said, no, I don't want to do that.

[1089] So I'm assuming at this point courtroom sciences is going wonderfully.

[1090] Oh, yeah.

[1091] You're making tons of money and you're happy, right?

[1092] And you built something.

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] A great life.

[1095] I lived less than a mile from the office.

[1096] Tennis club I played that.

[1097] Every day was in between halfway.

[1098] in between, lived on a golf course in Dallas, and I love my life.

[1099] And I declined.

[1100] I said, no, I'll give you three names of people that would do a really good job.

[1101] But I'm going scuba diving, so I'm not going to be here anyway.

[1102] And about 15 minutes later, the phone rings, and it's Oprah.

[1103] And she says, you don't say no to Oprah?

[1104] Come on.

[1105] I said, well, I'm going scuba diving.

[1106] She said, well, how about this?

[1107] We'll wait until you get back.

[1108] I'm going to scuba diving.

[1109] I said, okay.

[1110] I said, okay.

[1111] So I came in and did it.

[1112] when I got back and I was the old saying.

[1113] But I want to see, I want to hear the human side of Dr. Phil.

[1114] It minimally, even if you weren't scared to do it, when you go out there and you do a good job, there's few feelings that compare, in my experience, to going out on that tightrope and delivering and walking off.

[1115] It's a very elevated experience, isn't it?

[1116] Did you succumb to that?

[1117] No, it was more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

[1118] And I'll tell you, I wasn't.

[1119] nervous about it in the sense of like, oh, this is an audition or something because my idea is this is one and done.

[1120] I'm going to come do this and then thanks and I'll see you next time you get sued.

[1121] So I had no expectation of ever being on the show beyond that.

[1122] But there's something that you have to understand about Oprah.

[1123] You walk on the Oprah stage.

[1124] She has to this presence that you feel like you're sitting in her living room at home with your shoes off chatting right she makes you comfortable so it's like when I play football or whatever you you get up for the game and so I mean I'm up for the game I want to go do a good job I don't want to let her down I love her she's my friend so I'm up for it and I get out there and it's almost anti -climactic in that she makes it so easy.

[1125] Right.

[1126] She is that good.

[1127] I mean, she just, you know, you look her in the eye and she starts asking these questions and following along, and it's just, she puts you in a rocket chair.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] I've never experienced anything like that.

[1130] It's the best there ever was.

[1131] Absolutely.

[1132] I did her Super Soul Sunday podcast recently, and it was like exactly the same thing.

[1133] You were reminded of.

[1134] She is just, she is that good.

[1135] Yeah, that's so cool.

[1136] So I imagine, too, being on Oprah is the only thing akin, probably, in 1998 to having been a stand -up who goes and does Carson.

[1137] And then, like, overnight, people know who you are.

[1138] Like, was it within five minutes of having done her show where people are starting to recognize you and stuff?

[1139] Well, you know, I did her show.

[1140] And then a few weeks later, I did it again and then again, and then pretty soon it got to be.

[1141] every Tuesday, every Tuesday.

[1142] And let me tell you, make no mistake, there would be no Dr. Phil without Oprah.

[1143] Right.

[1144] I would never have endeavored to do it.

[1145] The success of it, you rise above the noise with her.

[1146] You get the Oprah good housekeeping seal of approval.

[1147] You train five years at Oprah University.

[1148] You learn how it's done.

[1149] You know, somebody asked me the other day, you know, number one for like seven years, you know, that this doesn't happen.

[1150] What's your secret?

[1151] She quit.

[1152] I get over to quit as that's my secret.

[1153] My secret is she quit.

[1154] I mean, that's how I became number one.

[1155] I was number two for 10 years before that.

[1156] And then she quit and I became number one.

[1157] That's how you, that's how it happened.

[1158] And so obviously we all know then you end up doing your own show.

[1159] Well, you, you, you, you, You take the notoriety from the show and you write a few books right out of the gates, right?

[1160] Between 98 and 2001, you write three books.

[1161] Yeah, somewhere in there.

[1162] I don't remember when the first one was, but I'd been on a couple years or something.

[1163] I wrote a book.

[1164] Right.

[1165] And she said, you need to write some of this down.

[1166] Again, Oprah, there wouldn't be a book if it wasn't for a book.

[1167] And again, as we were saying earlier, I'm assuming you're now, you have this clinical psychology background and all this academia.

[1168] But then you also now have been doing these trials, and you're like, you're getting.

[1169] gathering stuff there, too, right?

[1170] That has to be become a part of your worldview and your approach to all these things, right?

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] How many shows have you done?

[1173] Coming up on 3 ,000.

[1174] Oh, my gosh.

[1175] 3 ,000.

[1176] Does that number even astound you?

[1177] Yes, it does.

[1178] And, you know, it's coming up on like 18 ,000 guests and 3 ,000 shows.

[1179] Oh, my God.

[1180] We're in our 17th year.

[1181] That's like a good -sized town.

[1182] I grew up in a town of 10 ,000.

[1183] Like, you've interviewed basically everyone in my town plus the town over.

[1184] And in 3 ,000 episodes and an 18 ,000 guests, have you gotten it wrong?

[1185] Oh, my God.

[1186] Weekly.

[1187] Are you kidding?

[1188] Weekly.

[1189] Of course.

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] You need a horse to water, but you can't make them float on their back.

[1192] I mean, you...

[1193] Well, and I would imagine in your line, there's a little...

[1194] lot of judgment calls being made yeah you're getting pitched a ton of stories i would imagine and you're making a lot of judgment calls and it's not like you're planning this shit six months out right it's happening quick people are getting their newsworthy at a moment so i'd imagine that that can be tricky yeah you make these judgment calls and some of them maybe are regrettable and some of them you're real proud of yeah and you know some people take the advice and you get these glowing letters back and people have changed their lives and we've been on long enough now that kids that were coming home from school in the fifth grade and their mom would say you have to be quiet Dr. Phil's on.

[1195] They're now grown up and their fifth graders are coming home and they're saying you have to be quiet Dr. Phil's on it which is really kind of surreal but you get these glowing stories and then you get people that they were on drugs and you help them get clean and they've relapsed once, twice, three times since then and wrecked cars and, you know, ruined their families and some of them have overdosed and you've worked with couples that have gotten divorced.

[1196] And I mean, it's, and we do those follow -ups.

[1197] We do good, follow -ups good or bad.

[1198] Right.

[1199] Whether they, whether it worked out or whether it didn't.

[1200] We do them either way.

[1201] And what's the line, so with success comes critics.

[1202] Like one of the things I noticed about you is early on into this, like 2001, someone writes a biography of you.

[1203] And that has to be tricky, right?

[1204] Someone's yet to do that to me, thank God.

[1205] But certainly you could curate any kind of story about me. You could go interview my 10 worst enemies from home or you could interview my 10 best friends.

[1206] And depending on what those people say, you know, I'm a terrible person to some people, certainly.

[1207] They're right.

[1208] And I've been an angel to some people and they're right.

[1209] So what is, you want to talk about we both like control.

[1210] I don't like being powerless.

[1211] Knowing someone's writing a book about you, what does that feel like?

[1212] Basically, what they did is took a bunch of tabloid stories and bound them into a book and resold them.

[1213] But did it bother you?

[1214] I didn't read it.

[1215] Well, yeah, you didn't read it, but I'm sure you were aware of what it was saying.

[1216] And did that bother you?

[1217] You know, I'm not one of those people that needs to be loved by strangers.

[1218] You're not.

[1219] You know, you want everybody love you, right?

[1220] Of course.

[1221] Of course.

[1222] When somebody goes and does something like that, you know, my lawyers all read it.

[1223] And they say, well, it's this story from this tabloid and this story from this tabloid and this story from this tabloid.

[1224] And there's nothing new in there.

[1225] So it didn't play out any new ground.

[1226] So my pulse didn't go up one way or the other.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] I just had this experience, by the way.

[1229] I've not had this experience in 15 years of being on television.

[1230] But just recently, a woman I did have sex with in my first year of sobriety sold a story to a tabloid that said I had sex with her in my fifth year of sobriety, which would overlap with Kristen.

[1231] Well, it's not true.

[1232] Thank God for me, I've not not spent a night with Kristen in 11 years.

[1233] So she's like, well, that story is bullshit because you didn't spend the night at anyone's house.

[1234] Even knowing my wife didn't give a shit, presuming most people believe me. and her proof was a photo that was clearly from 15 years ago and not nine years ago, whatever, and she's been married.

[1235] It still bothered me. It still bothered me. I was at a grocery store at fucking Christmas and I see in a corner, did Dax cheat?

[1236] That bothers me because I'm assuming a lot of people aren't going to read it to find out whether that's true or not.

[1237] I know intellectually, I shouldn't care what anyone thinks, but the people in my life and the people in my life don't think that.

[1238] But that bothers me. It also, it has potential financial ramifications.

[1239] I represent companies.

[1240] know if a company was about to hire me and they saw that.

[1241] Well, let's just veer away from that.

[1242] Like, you know, it comes with a price, whether you choose to accept it or not.

[1243] I find it stressful.

[1244] Here's the thing.

[1245] You can't control it.

[1246] So, I mean, it's like saying you find lightning stressful.

[1247] You have so many wonderful pearls.

[1248] Your son told me when you said.

[1249] If you ask people what they wanted right before Henry Ford created the car, they'd say faster horses.

[1250] Exactly.

[1251] I really love that one.

[1252] But you know, you're saying...

[1253] That's how I feel on an airplane, by the way.

[1254] I don't understand people being stressed out in an airplane.

[1255] I'm like, I have zero control over the outcome over this.

[1256] I only worry about things that I can maybe steer something in the direction I want it to go in.

[1257] And, you know, it's a compliment in one way.

[1258] You're big enough that you sell magazines.

[1259] That's totally right.

[1260] They're going to put you on the cover.

[1261] I've had over 100 tabloid stories written about me. They've said Robin and I are going to get a divorce for the last 25 years.

[1262] We have never spoken the D word in our house.

[1263] And we've been married 42 years.

[1264] We've been together 45 years.

[1265] We've never said we were going to get a divorce.

[1266] We've never considered getting a divorce.

[1267] We're never going to get a divorce.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] But they just keep saying it and keep saying it and keep saying it.

[1270] And then when it doesn't happen, And then they say, well, he bought her that fabulous estate up on the hill as a bribe to stay with him so it doesn't ruin his brand.

[1271] It's like, okay, so they got to change the narrative.

[1272] Right, right.

[1273] And we're living in different wings of the house.

[1274] Well, if you see, the house doesn't have wings.

[1275] I've been there.

[1276] I've been there.

[1277] I can attest to that.

[1278] Wings.

[1279] There's nothing you can do about it.

[1280] And if you sue these people, they're judgment proof.

[1281] They got no money.

[1282] Right, right.

[1283] So you're not going to get anything out of that.

[1284] And if you sue them, all you do is give legs to the story.

[1285] Yeah, yeah.

[1286] It's all tricky.

[1287] Because the story's this big until you react.

[1288] Until I talk about it on my podcast.

[1289] And then it becomes this big.

[1290] Yeah.

[1291] I am not Dr. Phil.

[1292] I don't have any degrees whatsoever in psychology.

[1293] And you have hair.

[1294] And I have hair.

[1295] Yet I'm someone people ask for advice.

[1296] And it's one of the biggest sources of my self -esteem.

[1297] I am so grateful I'm someone you'd want their two cents on a situation like I really it's one of the cornerstones of what makes me feel good about who I am but with that for me runs a huge risk of I'll stop telling on myself because I want to protect that I want that position I like it so much it gives me so much self -esteem that I don't want people to know that I'm fucking up to I'm making mistakes my judgment sucks sometimes and I'll find myself sometimes resisting me maybe owning all my defects because I want to hold on to that position of being someone people look towards.

[1298] And I just can't imagine that you wouldn't also experience that in some level.

[1299] Well, and I think I've been, I'll give myself this credit because I think I've been very careful about this from the beginning is, and I've said this many times, including recently, I do not hold myself up as an example of mental, emotional, social, marital health.

[1300] Do not use me as a yardstick.

[1301] You know, the fact that a brain surgeon can do good brain surgery doesn't mean he has a perfect brain.

[1302] I mean, the fact that I can tell you what I have learned doesn't mean that I practice that all the time.

[1303] cobblers' children have no shoes, you know, don't look at me, just listen to what I say.

[1304] And I tell people, if what I say will not withstand challenge, throw it out.

[1305] Look, for example, I'm a workaholic.

[1306] Robin will tell you I'm a workaholic.

[1307] I'm not real demonstrative emotionally.

[1308] I mean, something like great will happen.

[1309] I get a real sense of satisfaction internally.

[1310] and a sense of peace and appreciation internally.

[1311] You know, Robin will do the happy dance, and I mean, she'll have fireworks going off in the backyard and stuff, and she'll say, give me something.

[1312] Come on, give me something.

[1313] Come on.

[1314] And, you know, I'm not real demonstrative that way.

[1315] And that's not just a difference.

[1316] That's probably a flaw.

[1317] I'm probably emotionally constricted in that way.

[1318] But I say, look, you don't, you don't want to pattern yourself after me. You just listen to what I say, and if it fits you, use it if it doesn't hit the eject button.

[1319] You don't have to be flawless.

[1320] You don't have to live 30 days without stumbling in order to be credible.

[1321] I'll tell you, if I wanted to know something about navigating sobriety, I would rather ask you than some pencil neck dickhead from the university, I guarantee you, because you have navigated that terrain.

[1322] you have been there and you've had urges that come back on you that have caused you to be moody or done this or done that you know it somebody that reads about it or writes about it or reads about it doesn't know it i want to talk to somebody that's been there that's why i said i talked to the pilot that just came in from chicago right you just came in from life that's why i would talk to you and not be afraid to think you're going to lose credibility because you stumble here and there.

[1323] So it's not hard for you to own your failings or your shortcomings.

[1324] Well, if I had one, I guess.

[1325] No, of course not.

[1326] Well, even you saying you're not demonstrative, I mean, again, I'm projecting like crazy, but I lived in a house where I didn't want to give the dude the satisfaction that he had affected me that was my fuck you is everyone else is is is but you cannot break me yeah and i permanently ruin myself in that way you know i i don't cry when things go i go into solution mode i don't cheer when things are great you know i wish i did but but i just decided that that's you know but that's not uncommon for people that have been through what you and i it we we cut off the highs and the lows we modulate and stay in here because we know don't get too happy because it's getting ready to come down.

[1327] Yeah, yeah.

[1328] And don't get too low because you're going to have to rally.

[1329] Because we know you've got to be the calm in the middle of the storm.

[1330] And when you live with what you and I have lived with an alcoholic father, chaotic home, we know we have to be the calm in the middle of the storm.

[1331] And so we don't afford ourselves emotional extremes.

[1332] Good or bad, it's how we survive.

[1333] Do you ever feel sad for yourself?

[1334] I feel sad for myself sometimes that I don't.

[1335] No. You don't.

[1336] Because I do experience it.

[1337] I just don't demonstrate it externally as much.

[1338] For example, both of my boys were amazing athletes.

[1339] I mean, like, lights out basketball players and stuff.

[1340] And I played sports all my life.

[1341] and I never got as nervous playing as watching.

[1342] Oh, yeah, sure.

[1343] I mean, so I know I'm human.

[1344] I know I'm like every other day, and I'm sitting up, oh, God, don't miss, don't miss, don't miss. Because, and if they miss a big shot and the game is lost or something, I mean, I hurt for them inside, you know, I just like it kills me. Yeah.

[1345] And 10 minutes later, they're playing Frisbee out in the yard, and I'm like crushed, you know, so I know that I have the full range of emotions.

[1346] I just don't, you know, I don't put it on display all the time.

[1347] Right.

[1348] Well, you know, a testament to whatever, I don't know about full inner workings of you, but I do know one of your sons, Jay, quite well.

[1349] Right.

[1350] And he's an incredibly hardworking, ambitious, conscientious, human being, which I feel like is a feather in your cap.

[1351] Yeah.

[1352] He thinks the world of you, by the way, and Kristen.

[1353] Oh, that's nice.

[1354] I have a hard time experiencing my own triumphs, which for me is healthy.

[1355] To your point, I lived for decades at a 10 or a zero, either high or fucking coming down.

[1356] So I make a point to live between four and six.

[1357] Yet with my kids, I get to experience, like what I can't experience for myself.

[1358] And it's such a source of joy for me. Do you have that with your children?

[1359] And I don't try to modulate it.

[1360] I do.

[1361] I mean, I look at Jay, and he is phenomenal.

[1362] I mean, like, we sell TV shows and stuff, and I'm as good in the room, you know, pitching a show to networks as I've ever even heard of, and I'm not even close to him.

[1363] I see him going on, I'm like, holy shit, where did this come from?

[1364] and in business and as a father I watch his kids I mean they climb him like a jungle gym they're on him like spider monkeys they love him and I see that and I'm so proud of him in that regard and my other son Jordan is a musician and he is the nicest most caring, sensitive human being and I think you know they've got a great mother i mean i give her so much credit for so much of it but i it is a yardstick you do measure yourself by you know how your kids turn out and how well socialized they are and how how they treat other people and stuff i do take pride in how how they've turned out there's nothing more fun than observing something in them that you know is much better than you and your partner yeah you know like i watch my our oldest physically, just physically, her balance, her coordination.

[1365] I know my wife and I know me. I don't know where it came from.

[1366] There's some transcendent joy in that.

[1367] That's so amazing.

[1368] They were out of town and I went, Robin and I went over and spent the night there to take them to school.

[1369] So we kept them in pattern.

[1370] And Jay has this Jeep that.

[1371] I've seen it.

[1372] Have you seen this Jeep?

[1373] He's got the air horns and everything on.

[1374] And it is just totally obnoxious.

[1375] And so they wanted to ride the school in the Jeep.

[1376] And so I go out to back it out.

[1377] And they're both standing there.

[1378] Nobody but my daddy can back that out of the garage because the tires are wider than the car.

[1379] So I said, well, it's okay.

[1380] I taught your daddy to drive.

[1381] Well, no, but listen, seriously.

[1382] Nobody with my dad.

[1383] I mean, they think Daddy is Superman.

[1384] And I found that so rewarding that they think he gets up and lets the sun out in the morning.

[1385] and that makes me know that he's done a great job that they so admire him and look up to him and they think, I can't back the Jeep out of the ride.

[1386] Yeah, no mortal could.

[1387] Yeah, and I listen to that for Vonsoran.

[1388] And I get the fuck out of the way.

[1389] I'm back to the Jeep out of garage.

[1390] I'm going to back over you if you don't move.

[1391] Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you.

[1392] I have so much fun on yours.

[1393] And are you, you're done with dirt bikes for good after that experience?

[1394] Yeah, I've still got a Harley, soft tail.

[1395] And I think the keys are buried somewhere on the property.

[1396] Robin came in one day with dirt on her hands and no keys.

[1397] So it's now become a prop.

[1398] It's now ceremonial.

[1399] No, I don't think she's going to let me ride anymore.

[1400] Well, Dr. Phil, thank you so much.

[1401] And I wish you a ton of luck on your podcast.

[1402] I'm curious why you would be starting anything new.

[1403] But you already told me you're a workaholic, so now it makes total sense.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] Listen, I'm doing it because on the show, I always am on task.

[1406] I have to solve a problem.

[1407] I have to fix a situation.

[1408] I have to deal with what's right in front of me. And in this podcast, I get to just talk to interesting people like you.

[1409] You would probably not have come on the show.

[1410] Right.

[1411] Until I relapsed.

[1412] Yeah, but you wouldn't have had a situation.

[1413] And to just come on and talk to me, you'd have thought, no, he's got to stick up his ass.

[1414] And he's always fix.

[1415] some problems and I don't want to be I don't want my brand in that frame so I wouldn't have come on but you came and talked to me on the podcast because it was explained you just want to talk to interesting people yeah and so I probably wouldn't have had had the privilege of talking to you if it hadn't been for the other forum and so it did and now we know each other and isn't it a little liberating to get off the clock absolutely because your show is so compartmentalized right you're under such constraint 42 minutes and 18 seconds and then we're going to the news baby so you got to fix this and get gone.

[1416] I bet your internal clock is so sharp.

[1417] I bet you can really tell when you've hit 11 minutes or 9 minutes.

[1418] It's time to heal this.

[1419] It's time to move on.

[1420] It's healing time.

[1421] So it's been very freeing to me to get to talk and I get to meet interesting people like you.

[1422] You were very kind to come on and do my podcast.

[1423] Well, I'll come again.

[1424] I had a good time.

[1425] I told you I want you to Dr. Film me. I wanted to be sobbing by the time I left there.

[1426] Yeah, well, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll analyze you next time you come on.

[1427] Okay, I can't wait.

[1428] Everything I think.

[1429] Okay, good.

[1430] Good.

[1431] I'm up for it.

[1432] Yeah.

[1433] All right.

[1434] Thanks a ton.

[1435] We'll see you soon.

[1436] All right.

[1437] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1438] Ooh, a speedy car just zip by Monica and it had loud aftermarket exhaust.

[1439] And most people hate that sound, but I love it.

[1440] It sounds like horsepower.

[1441] Welcome to the fact check of Dr. Pill.

[1442] It really caught your attention like a little child.

[1443] I am a four -year -old when I hear some motor go by.

[1444] Yes, and it's relevant because Dr. Phil likes motorcycles and cars.

[1445] He does.

[1446] Yeah, Dr. Pill.

[1447] Dr. Pill.

[1448] We're not saying Dr. Pill like a pejorative.

[1449] No. No, we're just having fun.

[1450] Yeah, it's fun.

[1451] Pahill.

[1452] When Dr. Phil came to us, he went to the wrong address.

[1453] By about seven houses.

[1454] I'm sure his maps told him.

[1455] It was the maps problem for sure.

[1456] But he, you know, he knocked on the door and a lady answered and Dr. Phil is standing there.

[1457] You can only imagine her thoughts.

[1458] I mean, it's probably less crazy because we're in Los Angeles, but even being in Los Angeles, if I heard a knock at my door and I opened up and like, Andre Agassi was standing there.

[1459] I'm like, what are you doing here?

[1460] I used to have real, real fantasies about this, about just randomly, yeah, Matt or Ben or and some other people would come through those fantasies.

[1461] But I remember one time Callie and I were camping and I just had this huge blown -out fantasy that they would be camping next to us and we'd run into them.

[1462] Sure.

[1463] I did this a lot, like pretty much everywhere I was.

[1464] Like, even if I was at the mall, I was like, you know, they could be here.

[1465] Can I tell you I had a very similar preoccupation with the people?

[1466] Yes, I really thought Neff Campbell would be like swinging through Michigan.

[1467] You'd run into her.

[1468] Yeah, or Molly Ringwald.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] I had that.

[1471] And then when I moved here, I had the craziest experience where I was in my house and I looked out my window and Sean Penn was standing there.

[1472] And I could not, my brain could not comprehend that, again, I willed it to happen.

[1473] Well, what's really funny, too, is that when you and I have constructed these fantasies, we're going to perform so casually and invitingly to these random people, right?

[1474] But then when you found yourself in that situation in real life, I bet you were not.

[1475] You didn't have your faculties.

[1476] No, no, no, no, no. Like, you didn't go outside and go, hey, how are you?

[1477] Can I help you?

[1478] Are you thirsty?

[1479] I just put on a pot of coffee.

[1480] And then a budding friendship would begin.

[1481] Yes.

[1482] Yeah, no, it didn't happen.

[1483] I just freaked out and texted everybody.

[1484] Do you think you would make love to Champagne?

[1485] Ooh.

[1486] Ooh.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] Okay, great.

[1489] Yeah, like if he came in for a cup of coffee and things took a turn.

[1490] Yeah.

[1491] Yeah.

[1492] You'd be open to that.

[1493] I'd be happy about it.

[1494] Yeah, that sounds cool.

[1495] Yeah, it was crazy and cool and exciting.

[1496] And that happened to this lady with Dr. Phil.

[1497] They did not make love, though.

[1498] I just want to be clear.

[1499] Well, we don't know.

[1500] Well, we don't know, but he was in and out pretty darn quick, and we did get him here.

[1501] That's true.

[1502] That's true.

[1503] And he's in a monogamous relationship with his wife.

[1504] Yes, ironclad agreement between he and his bride.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] If you're born into the name Phil McGraw, you had.

[1507] better play football and ride dirt bikes.

[1508] Yeah, he had no choice.

[1509] You can't be into pottery as Phil McGrath.

[1510] That's true.

[1511] Or even the theater department, I don't know.

[1512] Yeah, do you think our names restrict us?

[1513] They kind of do.

[1514] I do think so.

[1515] So what's the best name to give someone where they have the most options available?

[1516] You've got to go bland.

[1517] Sure.

[1518] I think my name is not unlike my dyslexia.

[1519] It was one of those things that was either going to make me or break me. Yeah.

[1520] Because it was everyone, you know, had a lot to say about that name on the playground.

[1521] Of course.

[1522] yeah and it could have probably killed me could have but it built me yeah nice that's a good rhyme monica padman yours i think is you have a lot of latitude on both sides like if you're going through a name like a list of 100 names that are attending some event you're trying to red flag people that might be a trouble like phil mcgraw right sit that guy far from the bar sure you see monica padman and you're like great you just keep on moving that's right yeah yeah and you didn't want to be the nail that's stuck up when you were younger.

[1523] No, so it was nice.

[1524] That's right.

[1525] But I was still mad about my name.

[1526] I didn't like it.

[1527] Because it was...

[1528] Because my parents gave it to me and I didn't like them.

[1529] Anything they gave you, yeah.

[1530] No, I didn't like it because I felt it sounded like cardboard.

[1531] Okay, not unique enough.

[1532] Just blank.

[1533] Stale and blank.

[1534] Well, I admittedly have terminal uniqueness, which I talk about a lot.

[1535] Sure.

[1536] And I'm embarrassed by that.

[1537] but part of me thinks it was kind of set up to have it because of your name your fucking kid with an X in its name yeah oh yeah when you give an X so arrogant it is yeah oh now I hope people hear this as a warning this is my son Traxis Shepherd Traxas that's the brand of an RC car company I like oh my God would you have named your boy Traxas I bet you would no no no I was gonna name my boy Lincoln I thought I was gonna have a boy named Lincoln right you know And then another name I had for half my life that I surrendered was Dante.

[1538] It's very popular in the black community.

[1539] Yeah.

[1540] So, yeah, he would have been on long lists of dinner attendees and they'd see Dante.

[1541] And they would notice.

[1542] They'd say Dante.

[1543] It would stand out.

[1544] Wait, I'm sorry.

[1545] Are you saying that you wanted to name your son Dante?

[1546] Dante, yes.

[1547] Yes, isn't that bizarre?

[1548] Okay.

[1549] And then if I had a daughter, I wanted to name her Epiphany.

[1550] Now, this is when I was like in ninth grade.

[1551] And largely influenced by seeing Angel Heart and Lisa Bonay's character was Epiphany.

[1552] Your favorite.

[1553] Yeah.

[1554] Oh, embarrassing.

[1555] You wanted your kid to be modeled after like the most sexual creature on planet Earth.

[1556] You're right.

[1557] It makes no sense.

[1558] It makes no sense.

[1559] I had this fantasy when I was going to have a daughter.

[1560] And this, again, this started very young, like ninth grade, is I also love.

[1561] One of my favorite songs in the world is Stevie Wonder's Ribbon in the Sky.

[1562] Ooh.

[1563] You know that song?

[1564] Ribbon in the sky for our love.

[1565] No, but I like it.

[1566] And I imagine that I'd one day just walk through a green field holding my daughter's hand.

[1567] And I'd hear that song ribbon in the sky.

[1568] And when I had that fantasy, her name was Epiphany.

[1569] But she was not Lisa Bonnet.

[1570] It's all convoluted.

[1571] Did she, okay, be honest.

[1572] Was she a mixed child?

[1573] No. She was a white child.

[1574] Straight cracker, blonde hair.

[1575] So you knew you were going to marry a white person, even in your fantasy.

[1576] Well, because there were, there was a single black gal in my junior high.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] Karen Cort, right, very nice human being.

[1579] I hope she's thriving, yeah.

[1580] And then in my high school, boy, if there was, they weren't in my grade and I don't think I knew.

[1581] Now, when I moved to downtown Detroit, I promptly had a black girlfriend.

[1582] But so all this fantasizing was pre, where that seemed like a realistic outcome.

[1583] Okay.

[1584] All right.

[1585] Interesting.

[1586] But again, I was clearly attracted to black women because Lisa Bonay is my number one.

[1587] Exactly.

[1588] I overused that on here and I'm embarrassed by it.

[1589] So I also say Neff Campbell is my number one.

[1590] That's true.

[1591] You do that a lot.

[1592] I know.

[1593] You give a lot of people, which is nice.

[1594] But I feel that way.

[1595] Yeah, sure.

[1596] But how do you?

[1597] Because how can everyone be?

[1598] be your number one.

[1599] This is an issue we have.

[1600] Me and you have this issue.

[1601] There should be parentheses around all these.

[1602] So Nev Campbell being number one should have a bracket around it that says from 17 to 22.

[1603] Okay.

[1604] And Lisa Bonnet was really like 12 to 18 or something.

[1605] Okay.

[1606] That makes sense.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] So they've all occupied that space for different periods.

[1609] You know, I have.

[1610] I don't know why you have a problem with it of all fucking people because Matt and Ben are both your number one.

[1611] You would never picked.

[1612] I would never.

[1613] But there, they came at the same time.

[1614] It's not the same.

[1615] No, you have two number ones, probably more, but that's fine.

[1616] No, I have two number ones.

[1617] No, where are we putting Donald Faison in there?

[1618] You mean Donald Glover?

[1619] I love Donald Glover and I keep doing that.

[1620] How embarrassing.

[1621] Stop calling him Donald Faison, though I do love Donald Faison.

[1622] We love Donald Faison.

[1623] He's such a good time.

[1624] Yes, Donald Glover.

[1625] Isn't he number one?

[1626] No. Ben and Matt are number one.

[1627] Period.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] Period.

[1630] That's it.

[1631] There are no more number ones.

[1632] But I do have a problem with, with me. Yeah.

[1633] Yeah, I do.

[1634] Yeah.

[1635] Because I feel like you don't, we talked about this on here, but I feel like you don't, nothing's like precious for you.

[1636] And I don't think that's true.

[1637] And I also think really, I think that you're doing it correctly.

[1638] and I'm not doing it correctly.

[1639] But I do think that's true.

[1640] And Mindy said, when she was talking about friends, she said, best friend is a tear, not a person.

[1641] Right.

[1642] And I like that.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] So like when I think of Carrie Hargrove, my whole heart almost explodes.

[1645] I love Carrie Hargrove.

[1646] God, do I love her.

[1647] Tell people who she is.

[1648] She's my first really long -term girlfriend of five years and started in high school.

[1649] And then when I think of Brie Morrison, my heart explodes.

[1650] I love her so much.

[1651] I think I can have those feelings simultaneously.

[1652] Of course.

[1653] You can.

[1654] Again, they're bracketed.

[1655] They have periods, but.

[1656] And when I think of you, my heart explodes.

[1657] Thank you.

[1658] But it's just.

[1659] It's threatening.

[1660] Yeah, it is.

[1661] It makes you feel less.

[1662] It's like when I comment on people, when I respond to them, and they found out that I have responded to someone else.

[1663] It is.

[1664] People want to feel special.

[1665] Sure.

[1666] I get it.

[1667] All I want is that, when I'm with the person that I really want to love me, that when I'm with them, I feel completely loved by them.

[1668] That's what I'm looking for.

[1669] I want my real life experience with that person to meet my needs.

[1670] And then my healthiest self is not then evaluating how they feel about me in my absence.

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] Just because there's no way for me to know.

[1673] It's all conjecture.

[1674] But there's some unsafety there.

[1675] Only if when you see them and you go, oh, they're not available and present in giving me all the things I want from them.

[1676] Yeah.

[1677] I just don't know how you can, like, try to monitor that when you're not around.

[1678] You're only busy monitoring that if you don't feel it.

[1679] Yeah.

[1680] Although there is a – my friend Caitlin said a really neat thing at her wedding.

[1681] She said, I'm going to behave in your absence the way I would in your presence, which I found to be very romantic and beautiful.

[1682] That is nice.

[1683] But I don't need that from someone, just for the record.

[1684] Right.

[1685] Just behave in my presence how I would like you to behave, and then you're free to do whatever the hell you want.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] Okay, so we talk a little bit about Dr. Death a little bit, but I wanted to give it a little more context.

[1688] So it's a podcast.

[1689] That follows a surgeon at Baylor in Dallas, Texas, who has a combination of total incompetence as a surgeon.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] Mixed with out -of -control addiction.

[1692] Yes.

[1693] And he performed many, many, many.

[1694] 30 -something surgeries, botched surgeries.

[1695] Some people died.

[1696] Yeah.

[1697] Quadriplegics, paraplegics.

[1698] Lots of paralyzing of people.

[1699] Operated on his buddy.

[1700] And basically decapitated him.

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] Oh, I mean, it is horrendous.

[1703] It is.

[1704] It's so good.

[1705] It really is so good.

[1706] And very hard to listen to and very good.

[1707] Yeah.

[1708] Okay, so the Hong Kong flu.

[1709] Hong Kong flu -y.

[1710] Hong Kong flu.

[1711] The 1968 flu pandemic was a category two flu pandemic, whose outbreak in 1968 and 1969 killed an estimated 1 million people worldwide.

[1712] Yikes.

[1713] It was caused by an H3N2 strain of the influenza A virus descended from H2N2 through a genetic process in which genes from multiple subtypes re -assorted to form a new virus.

[1714] Because it originated in Hong Kong, the pandemic is also referred to as the Hong Kong flu.

[1715] Hong Kong flu.

[1716] We shouldn't be laughing about the Hong Kong fluy, but also, though, no rival for that Spanish flu.

[1717] Ooh.

[1718] Yeah, but the Spanish flu is a deceit.

[1719] It is.

[1720] It wasn't.

[1721] It had nothing to do with Spain.

[1722] Didn't originate in Spain.

[1723] very honest about their data reporting i guess i mean you said that the other day i don't remember that part from the yeah i don't i do are you sure yeah i'm a thousand percent positive on that yeah okay everyone else is hiding there there's a there's a there's a there's a thick history of countries hiding like there was a lot of accusations that the chinese had hid the true death toll of an earthquake in the 80s that apparently killed yeah 20 times as many people as they claimed publicly.

[1724] I guess it's not good for their like visit China website.

[1725] Right.

[1726] You think, oh, maybe their building regulations aren't up to snuff.

[1727] Right.

[1728] There's a little tremor while I'm there.

[1729] Collapse city.

[1730] Collapse city for like actually.

[1731] Literally.

[1732] Yeah.

[1733] Oh, did I tell you I have my observation that I think literally is soon to be replaced by the word essentially.

[1734] Oh.

[1735] Yeah.

[1736] I feel people moving towards overusing the word essentially.

[1737] I'm noticing it all.

[1738] over the place now.

[1739] You are.

[1740] Yes.

[1741] I feel like the word essentially is going to edge out literally in the next five to ten years.

[1742] So just be aware of it in your circle.

[1743] Just listen for it.

[1744] Again, it's fine.

[1745] It's great at people are using.

[1746] It's kind of the opposite of literally.

[1747] Literally means literally.

[1748] How do I even describe?

[1749] Yes and no. They both kind of mean actually in a weird way.

[1750] I'd say that's the connective tissue.

[1751] I mean, you could say like essentially is like clarify.

[1752] Right.

[1753] He was essentially late or he was actually late.

[1754] No, actually is.

[1755] Yeah.

[1756] Yeah, not the same.

[1757] No. I don't know then.

[1758] But just, you know, keep your ears.

[1759] Okay.

[1760] Yeah, yeah.

[1761] Okay, great.

[1762] Okay.

[1763] Great.

[1764] Is a therapist different from a psychologist in their degrees?

[1765] Uh -oh.

[1766] I got big trouble when I suggested.

[1767] You did, but I don't mean you're wrong.

[1768] Okay.

[1769] Okay, good.

[1770] Obviously, a doctoral degree is the highest a therapist can get, but you don't, you don't have to have a PhD to.

[1771] act as a therapist.

[1772] But you do have to get one if you want to become a licensed psychologist.

[1773] Okay.

[1774] But I believe they're doing kind of the same thing.

[1775] Maybe psychologists get more money, I would hope.

[1776] Sure.

[1777] Well, I mean, you know, because they had to go to all that schooling.

[1778] Right.

[1779] They have all that debt.

[1780] Yeah, student loans.

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] So get more money.

[1783] Anyway, so you can go to a therapist that doesn't have a PhD just so you know.

[1784] Okay, great.

[1785] And they may be great.

[1786] I'm practicing.

[1787] I'm on license and I'm certainly practicing.

[1788] That's true.

[1789] Counseling.

[1790] That's true.

[1791] I mean, I think you still have to have some certifications, which you don't have.

[1792] Like a BA in anthropology?

[1793] No. Oh, okay.

[1794] I don't think that suffices.

[1795] Suffices.

[1796] Will suffice?

[1797] Spice.

[1798] You love suffice to say.

[1799] I sure do.

[1800] I think I say suffice it to say.

[1801] I think I add a...

[1802] You know, I'm really noticing, and with the help of comments on Twitter and whatnot, Instagram, that it's a Michigan thing.

[1803] The across, like across the street.

[1804] People say...

[1805] And suffice it.

[1806] Like, adding an ED to things I think might be a Michigan thing.

[1807] Really?

[1808] Yeah.

[1809] Hmm.

[1810] I don't know if you need to bring down all the Michiganders because you add a T to things and an E -D.

[1811] Well, not a T and E -D.

[1812] Well, you add a T to Attic.

[1813] Addict.

[1814] What do I say?

[1815] Addict.

[1816] Attic.

[1817] Addict.

[1818] That's what it is, right?

[1819] No, attic.

[1820] Oh.

[1821] I'll never, I'll just never learn.

[1822] Oh, are you saying across?

[1823] Across the street.

[1824] Across the street is E -D.

[1825] S -S -E -D.

[1826] It sounds like a T to me. It does.

[1827] It does.

[1828] It does.

[1829] And a lot of, when they comment, they think I'm adding a T, but in my mind, I'm adding a, or drowned.

[1830] Yeah, you say drought.

[1831] I mean, I add these and edies to things.

[1832] We say, we add us as Kmart's, Fords, Chrysler's.

[1833] Burger Kings.

[1834] Burger, no, McDonald's.

[1835] Pizza huts.

[1836] It is McDonald's, right?

[1837] It sure is.

[1838] Oh, okay, okay.

[1839] You know, he said that everyone can get a job.

[1840] Mm -hmm.

[1841] And I'm just going to fact check that quickly.

[1842] Okay.

[1843] Because I didn't, you know, it needs to be addressed that that is not necessarily true in this country, in this time.

[1844] Also, it kind of ignores if you knock on someone's door and ask to clean out their shed and you're white versus you knock on someone's door and ask to clean out the shed and you're black, you're probably in most parts of the country going to get a different response.

[1845] Exactly.

[1846] So that's definitely true.

[1847] So it's interesting because Jay Leno also, these two have a similar kind of ethos that I appreciate.

[1848] It's really interesting because I don't agree with it, but I appreciate it, if that makes any sense.

[1849] They've got an older, grab your bootstraps, fucking deal of it.

[1850] Like Jay pointed out, like here's reality.

[1851] You lip off to a cop, you get hit with a nightstick.

[1852] No, I don't think cops should be entitled to hit people with nightsticks.

[1853] Nor do I think people should pretend that they live.

[1854] in a different reality than they do.

[1855] So I'm somewhere in the middle of this kind of old -fashioned bootstraps logic and of course probably being more evolved.

[1856] But I think there's merit to both arguments.

[1857] Part of it is, you know what?

[1858] You know what?

[1859] Half the people that are saying they can't get a job, fucking can get a job.

[1860] That I agree with.

[1861] I think a lot of people that say they can't get a job are fucking lazy.

[1862] Or their ego won't let them take a job they think is below that.

[1863] Exactly.

[1864] I agree with that.

[1865] So he is right about a significant percentage of the population, and he's wrong about a significant percentage of the population.

[1866] Yeah, I think that's true.

[1867] I like it too.

[1868] I like that mentality that they kind of have, but I...

[1869] It's so not victimy, which I like.

[1870] I know, but of course, but they're never going to be the victim.

[1871] That's right.

[1872] So they can of course have this sort of lofty idea because they're never going to be on the opposite end of that.

[1873] So white males.

[1874] Because And if you're a female and you knock on a door and ask to clean out someone's shed, the man might think, well, there's other things I'd like you to clean out.

[1875] Exactly.

[1876] A woman can't do that.

[1877] Yeah.

[1878] The guy would be like watching them in the garage work and a robe.

[1879] Knocking on some stranger's door as a girl.

[1880] No, I would not advise that.

[1881] Especially if you had fat nachies, God knows what would happen.

[1882] We never know.

[1883] You just don't know.

[1884] Okay.

[1885] Okay.

[1886] So you said Kristen is often disgusted.

[1887] by what the defense does.

[1888] And you're really referring to the OJ trial with moving the pictures out and doing all that.

[1889] Putting black folks in the house, yeah.

[1890] But that wasn't the only time.

[1891] I can't think of the other time, but she's been.

[1892] But I just don't want to paint this picture because prison almost always is on the side of the defense.

[1893] Well, she's always on the side of whoever she thinks is innocent.

[1894] Right.

[1895] So if she believes that the defendant is innocent, then by all means anything you do is right.

[1896] worth it.

[1897] And if she thinks the person's guilty, then they shouldn't be able to trick the system.

[1898] Right.

[1899] I just wanted to clarify.

[1900] I don't think she is like often discussed in by what the defense says.

[1901] I think she's disgusted in general by what sometimes happens in our justice system with both sides.

[1902] Yeah.

[1903] Who are just manipulating.

[1904] Yeah.

[1905] But where she and I do differ is I'm not troubled by the guilty person's counsel using all the tools at their disposal.

[1906] Right.

[1907] Like, I feel like that's the system working.

[1908] I'm with her on this a little bit because I think they need to use all the resources and logic and present the best case they can.

[1909] But not lot.

[1910] To me, the changing of the pictures is lying.

[1911] Yeah, so if people aren't aware, the counsel for OJ went through his house.

[1912] They took the jurors on a tour of his house.

[1913] Before the jurors got there, they took off all the pictures of white people on the walls and put pictures of him with black people.

[1914] Exactly.

[1915] Yeah.

[1916] That weren't there.

[1917] That were not there.

[1918] Yeah.

[1919] I mean, clearly he had taken those photos.

[1920] They weren't photoshopped.

[1921] Right.

[1922] Well, I think some were like paintings.

[1923] Okay.

[1924] So they just redress the whole house to make it look like he was more connected to the African American community.

[1925] And it was a complete lie.

[1926] Right.

[1927] But I do think the oath that a lawyer takes is to provide the very best defense admittable by the judge.

[1928] I do think that it is their obligation to do every single little thing in their power.

[1929] Within, yeah, I disagree.

[1930] I think once you're fully manipulate, like they had no way of knowing.

[1931] They were fully manipulated.

[1932] Mm -hmm.

[1933] That is not okay to me. I think that's horrible.

[1934] Well, to me, that's not a failure of the defense.

[1935] That's a failure of Judge Edo, of the judge.

[1936] Yeah.

[1937] He should not have allowed that.

[1938] That's on him.

[1939] I don't think he knew.

[1940] I'm sure the prosecution pointed that out.

[1941] But by the way, let's back up.

[1942] There's no fucking reason in the world the juror should have toured his house to begin with.

[1943] Judge Edo should not have allowed that.

[1944] Yeah.

[1945] If that even was, Judge Edo, I think it was.

[1946] It was.

[1947] Okay.

[1948] So, you know, that's on him, I think.

[1949] That's not on the defense.

[1950] That's just trying everything possible to get their client exonerated.

[1951] Ethics are so blurry.

[1952] They are.

[1953] Okay, he said juries have a combined IQ of 1 ,200 in his estimation.

[1954] And there's no actual evidence of that.

[1955] So that's just him having worked in this and him coming up with that number.

[1956] Well, but in general, there's 12 jurors, right?

[1957] Yeah.

[1958] A jury of your peers is 12 jurors and the average IQ in America is around 100.

[1959] So that makes sense.

[1960] Yeah.

[1961] But the people that sit on juries is not necessarily the average.

[1962] average American.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] So I don't think we can say that it's 1 ,200.

[1965] Okay.

[1966] I mean, whatever.

[1967] He can say it.

[1968] And he did.

[1969] So that's fine.

[1970] But I, I don't, there, um, there's no real evidence to that.

[1971] Okay.

[1972] Who plays Jason Bull in the Dr. Phil show Bull?

[1973] Um, Michael Weatherly.

[1974] Okay.

[1975] Okay.

[1976] Okay.

[1977] And you said you would cast Brad Pitt as yourself.

[1978] Sure.

[1979] Sure.

[1980] Yeah.

[1981] Yeah.

[1982] I don't have anyone who I'd cast Brad Pitt to play.

[1983] You.

[1984] I would just...

[1985] Oh, I'd love that.

[1986] Yeah, like, if ever given the choice to cast Brad Pitt, I'd always do it.

[1987] Who could play me?

[1988] Well, let me just say one thing to be provocative.

[1989] Okay.

[1990] One of my favorite things about the Hamilton musical was I sat down in the seats and outwarks a black Aaron Burr and a black George Washington.

[1991] And I think, well, this, what is this?

[1992] This isn't historical.

[1993] This is going to be distracting.

[1994] In 47 seconds later when they started acting and singing and talking, I never thought of it again.

[1995] And I learned this great lesson while watching that musical that, yeah, everyone can play everyone.

[1996] It doesn't fucking matter.

[1997] The story is a story.

[1998] And it was a revelation to me. I think it's so cool that our top dog did that.

[1999] Lynn Manuel.

[2000] Yes.

[2001] I think that's so cool he did that.

[2002] And I was like, oh, you know what?

[2003] Going forward for me, go ahead and cast anyone as anyone.

[2004] But I'm going to now have to extend that to Brad Pitt.

[2005] I would cast Brad Pitt to play Malcolm X. Too dicey?

[2006] I'm going to walk that back.

[2007] Walk it back.

[2008] Walk it back.

[2009] Back pedal.

[2010] I walk up back.

[2011] Yeah.

[2012] You don't think it should go both ways.

[2013] No. I don't.

[2014] All right.

[2015] You don't need to take away black roles and give it to more white people.

[2016] What if it's Brad Pitt, though?

[2017] Look, Brad Pitt is doing fine.

[2018] He has a lot of roles coming to him.

[2019] He's pretty high in the soul spectrum.

[2020] Are you serious?

[2021] Bet your tato's I am.

[2022] Oh, my God, my natchy.

[2023] No, that is so blinded by your love for him.

[2024] If you really, the soul spectrum is, is bullshit if that's true.

[2025] No, I love you more than I love Brad Pitt.

[2026] It didn't obscure my, I think I was pretty objective in my assessment.

[2027] I don't.

[2028] And, oh, by the way, a lot of people stood up for me on the soul spectrum.

[2029] conversation and said I was much higher than that they did thank you thank you arm cherries look no I love that any it doesn't matter what the thing is is if you label something zero to 10 people are just gonna want you to have a 10 no matter what the thing is like no one's even asking the question is like is it desirable to be a 10 on the soul spectrum which is the fact that a 10 exists you should want a 10 yeah even if it's like stubbornness I am a 10 on that yeah a Okay.

[2030] Anyway, he is not high.

[2031] He is.

[2032] He's so comfy in his skin.

[2033] And he's got like this, he's got this kind of jazz fluidity to him when he moves, the way he's in control of his body, his chill factor.

[2034] I bet he's a pretty good dancer.

[2035] Oh, my God.

[2036] This is all made up in your head.

[2037] No, I don't think that at all.

[2038] I don't when I, I mean, I love him.

[2039] But when I watch, like, interviews and stuff, I'm never like, oh, he's like.

[2040] He's like.

[2041] He's got rhythm.

[2042] Yeah, I gotta show you a couple pictures of him on different motorcycles he owns.

[2043] He's, okay, so he's a good model and a good actor.

[2044] That's not the same thing as being comfortable in your skin.

[2045] I'm not being for very persuasive in this.

[2046] Nope.

[2047] I lose, look, I lose these debates with you.

[2048] I lose many of them, and I just lost that one.

[2049] That's okay.

[2050] Thank you for.

[2051] Thank you.

[2052] Thank you.

[2053] Okay.

[2054] Hey, what I hated was that Oprah got sued for saying that she was not going to eat another burger.

[2055] How can you sue a person?

[2056] Like, I actually can't wrap my head around that.

[2057] How she could have actually been sued for just giving her opinion on what she was going to do with her own life.

[2058] Well, I mean, I don't agree that they were right and it was proved that they were wrong.

[2059] but the simple fact that the beef futures market collapsed the next day shows that she has an incredible sway over that industry.

[2060] She does.

[2061] She has a sway over every industry.

[2062] So if she's swaying the industry, is she responsible if the reason she said she wasn't going to eat beef was, in fact, not factual, that she thought all cows have mad cow disease in the states and there was no proof of that.

[2063] And, you know, look.

[2064] But she's saying, she wasn't saying, I'm not eating a burger and you shouldn't either.

[2065] Because all beef is infected with mad cow.

[2066] No. Yeah, that to me is like, okay, then you're persuading people.

[2067] This is that she said on her own, I'm not going to eat another burger.

[2068] She's allowed to not want to eat another burger and say that out loud on her program.

[2069] She's also, I think, legally should be allowed to say, I'm nervous all the beef has mad cow disease.

[2070] And I don't think you should eat it.

[2071] I even think she should be able to say, I don't think you should eat it.

[2072] I do too.

[2073] I think there's a different failure in the system that the futures market collapsed.

[2074] To me, there's like another thing to look into here.

[2075] Right.

[2076] And then also like, I mean, just sorry, beef.

[2077] She just happens to be powerful and doesn't like your thing.

[2078] That doesn't mean you can sue her.

[2079] Right.

[2080] I did not like that.

[2081] But speaking of Oprah, it was her birthday, like last week or something.

[2082] I know because like all these famous people were posting about.

[2083] Oprah's birthday.

[2084] Uh -huh.

[2085] And at least 75 % of the captions were Oprah, the queen of everything.

[2086] Oprah, the queen of literally everything.

[2087] I didn't see Oprah, the queen of essentially everything.

[2088] Oh, okay, okay.

[2089] But next year you'll see that on her birthday.

[2090] Next year, maybe coming up, yeah.

[2091] The essential queen of essentially everything.

[2092] And I kind of felt the way you feel about the Dalai Lama.

[2093] By the way, as you were just explaining that, in my head I was like, Yeah, I'm getting triggered like I do with the Dalai Lama.

[2094] Like I love Oprah.

[2095] I do too.

[2096] She's awesome.

[2097] True and fucking through.

[2098] I think the thing that made her appealing is that she was very honest and vulnerable and owned her imperfections.

[2099] And I think that's awesome.

[2100] But I do feel like it's tipped into deity stats.

[2101] It has.

[2102] It has.

[2103] And I started to get nervous when I was reading all of this and feeling like, oh no, everyone thinks Oprah is a god.

[2104] Came out of the sky.

[2105] Yeah.

[2106] And again, yeah, I love her.

[2107] But then I could just relate to you on that feeling of like, I don't think people should be this.

[2108] Pump the brakes is what I would say.

[2109] Yeah, love her, but let's not get into the deity, sacred level.

[2110] Yeah, because you're right.

[2111] Just humans aren't that and they can't.

[2112] Oprah takes a dump every morning.

[2113] She does.

[2114] It's not.

[2115] It doesn't smell good.

[2116] No. No, no, no. Well, then she is a deity and she deserves all that.

[2117] And she essentially is the queen of everything.

[2118] Anyway.

[2119] So, I mean, I don't, I feel bad.

[2120] Like, and that's also crazy that I feel a little scared even saying, like, maybe don't worship Oprah.

[2121] Right.

[2122] Like, there'll be a big backlash.

[2123] Yes.

[2124] You know, I don't know.

[2125] She's just a lady.

[2126] It also just makes me nervous for Oprah.

[2127] Like, what if she has a big failing or a big shortcoming?

[2128] Exactly.

[2129] Now she might feel this pressure to be an angel on earth to everyone.

[2130] And it might, you know, I truly would never want that.

[2131] I would never want everyone to have me on, like, a pedestal like that.

[2132] Yeah.

[2133] Yeah.

[2134] Yeah, it's very scary.

[2135] Yikes.

[2136] I'm sorry, Oprah.

[2137] Happy birthday, though.

[2138] And happy birthday.

[2139] I hope you had a great birthday.

[2140] Okay, how many shows is Dr. Phil done?

[2141] He says coming up on 3 ,000.

[2142] He's in 2 ,191.

[2143] Okay.

[2144] But he has more years, so maybe he was calculating.

[2145] the terms of it yeah yeah so that's something i would do that i ever tell you about the most embarrassing thing where i i lied debris about how many quarters i put in a parking meter no when i went to ucla there was a parking meter it was so goddamn expensive and i legitimately had to put 13 quarters in it to get whatever hour and 40 minutes i needed from my class but when i went home i told her that i put 16 in and and then like a full hour went before I was like, you know what?

[2146] I only put 13 in, and I don't know why I put it up to 16.

[2147] It's already so impressive that I put 13 in there.

[2148] It was already way too much.

[2149] And I just, for whatever reason, I was like, you know, it's crazy.

[2150] It's 16.

[2151] He had to up the annie.

[2152] Yeah.

[2153] And let's just say even if Dr. Phil McGraw was fibbing, I could relate.

[2154] As 1 ,100's already astronomical amount of episodes.

[2155] It's insane.

[2156] 3 ,000 doesn't make it that much more astronaut.

[2157] No, it doesn't.

[2158] Anastrous amount of episodes.

[2159] Exactly.

[2160] But I could feel my, I could imagine myself doing that.

[2161] Yeah.

[2162] Like coming up on 2 ,500, I'll just say 2 ,500, you know?

[2163] Right.

[2164] We're coming up on it.

[2165] Coming up on it in six years.

[2166] I think I do it on here.

[2167] I'll go like, oh, we've done 80 of these.

[2168] And in fact, and afterwards you guys will go, no, we've done 70.

[2169] I think you do sometimes exaggerate.

[2170] For no reason.

[2171] For kind of no reason.

[2172] But I don't know.

[2173] For me, when you do it, it feels like you are just don't know.

[2174] Sometimes I am just.

[2175] really think we have done 80 or I go like oh 602 have come out and I feel like we have 18 and then I'm just wrong right yeah we've done 84 though oh we have okay so I would probably say a hundred so we've done a hundred yeah yeah round up you round up to the biggest I've done a hundred of these look anything over 51 I'm more right by saying 100 than I am zero yeah yeah yeah that's true but you could just say 83 or for whatever it is um All right, that's all.

[2176] Oh, great.

[2177] Thank you.

[2178] And thanks for Dr. Phil McGrough for giving our neighbor such a fun little surprise in the middle of the afternoon.

[2179] Honestly.

[2180] I think she was the ideal demographic, too.

[2181] I think she was like a 60 -year -old lady.

[2182] What if she was watching, Dr. Phil?

[2183] And then he knocked on the door.

[2184] I mean, oh.

[2185] Came out of the TV set and knocked on her door.

[2186] The dream.

[2187] Willie Wonka style.

[2188] It's the dream.

[2189] All right.

[2190] Good night.

[2191] I love you.

[2192] Good night.

[2193] Love you.

[2194] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2195] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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