CEO Diaries: Bozoma Saint John on Growing Through Grief & Leading with Purpose

[0] In today's Moments episode, we're featuring one of the most iconic brand builders of all time, the former CMO of Netflix and chief brand officer of Uber, Bosma St. John.

[1] Bosma's perspective on marketing is fresh because it's not just about algorithms or trends, it's about something far more powerful.

[2] It's about curiosity.

[3] Curiosity about people, why they choose what they choose, what moves them, what scares them, and what makes them say yes.

[4] In B2B marketing, just like in life, we're not talking to businesses, we're talking to people.

[5] So if you want to understand the real edge behind influential marketing, this is the moment to listen in.

[6] Your first sort of real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency.

[7] So for people that don't know, who is Spike Lee and how did that happen?

[8] Spike Lee is blackety, blackety, black, first of all.

[9] All the blackness.

[10] No, but he is a film director, really, at his core.

[11] Filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes.

[12] But he has an advertising agency in New York.

[13] When I was there, it was on Madison Avenue.

[14] So Madison Avenue is like the place for advertising in the world, right?

[15] It's the place where the show Mad Men was made from.

[16] So DDB is one of the biggest agencies, and Spike had a JV with them.

[17] What brought you to New York in the first place?

[18] Curiosity.

[19] I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Middletown, Connecticut.

[20] And it was just time to apply to med school, and I really didn't want to.

[21] And New York was right there.

[22] It was like an hour and a half from school, and I really didn't have a plan.

[23] I just went, trying to escape.

[24] what I thought was my destiny.

[25] And like many people say, I think sometimes in this business, I kind of fell into this, but I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was.

[26] I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.

[27] So many people are in that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to help, trying to figure out a way to let their destiny find them.

[28] Yeah.

[29] When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be and you think about that first moment where you went to New York and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee and you find your destiny or it finds you.

[30] If your daughter comes to you and says, mom, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny?

[31] Like what have I got to do to actively bring it about?

[32] Have you ever heard that statement like let go and let God?

[33] No. Have you heard that before?

[34] No. It's a very Christian thing.

[35] I feel like in the black church, there's a lot of that let go and let God, you know, as if God is just going to just sprinkle magic dust over you, you know?

[36] And I'm like, no, I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement.

[37] I think the letting go is an action.

[38] You know, it's not surrender.

[39] It's like you just lay down and it's going to find you.

[40] You're not going to find your destiny sitting on the couch.

[41] You know, the letting go.

[42] For me, it's like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do.

[43] Letting go of, sometimes you're like trying to do something and keep hitting a wall.

[44] You're just like, oh, if I just hit it one more time, it's going to break.

[45] Sometimes it's like, you know, that's a cement wall, right?

[46] If you just move five feet to the right, it's actually plaster and you're going to go right through it.

[47] You know, it's like sometimes it's the letting go of this thought that you had, which is like, oh, I'm going to do this thing right here is the magic.

[48] And I'll tell you this.

[49] Look, it didn't just happen at that stage of my life.

[50] It's happening right now.

[51] Where, you know, I'm like, okay, well, I think I am done with my corporate CMO work.

[52] I believe I'm finished.

[53] So I'm going to let go.

[54] Let go of it.

[55] I'm not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job.

[56] I want whatever is coming for me to come.

[57] I'm going to allow space for it.

[58] Now, it doesn't mean I'm just sitting around.

[59] I'm also trying to polish other skills.

[60] I'm trying to create because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space.

[61] I can feel it like in my spirit.

[62] That understanding of like your intuition, and if you're listening to it, it's like a magnet.

[63] It's going to just draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do.

[64] And it has happened every single time, like every time without fail.

[65] Like every job, every move I've made hasn't been because somebody said, oh, you know what?

[66] This makes logical sense.

[67] One plus one equals two.

[68] Sometimes I'm just like, but it's not math though.

[69] You know, it's physics.

[70] It's not the addition.

[71] It's the subtraction.

[72] I'm just going to sit here.

[73] And I'm going to get up.

[74] And I'm going to go talk to this person.

[75] And I'm going to talk to that person.

[76] I'm going to sit back down again.

[77] And I'm going to write this thing out.

[78] And then, like magic, because I don't know how else to describe it, it's like the destiny appears.

[79] I'm telling you, every time it has happened.

[80] Every single time.

[81] Even when people were like, oh, that is never going to happen.

[82] Like.

[83] You're wasting your time.

[84] I don't know why you'd go over there and do that.

[85] I'm like, I don't know.

[86] Something inside.

[87] I'm telling you.

[88] It's telling me that this is the way to go.

[89] I'm going to go over there.

[90] Every time it's worked.

[91] You worked at Endeavor, a big company that owned the UFC and WWE, etc. Yes, yes, yes.

[92] Beats, Uber, Netflix.

[93] Apple.

[94] Apple.

[95] Oh, yeah.

[96] All the things.

[97] It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause and for, you know, because you just seem to get right back at it all the time.

[98] I mean, that's what it appears when you look at the chronological nature of these events.

[99] Yeah.

[100] How have all of these personal tragedies fed into your career?

[101] And what role has your career continued to play in dealing with these personal tragedies?

[102] Yeah.

[103] Well, I think especially Peter's death made me impatient.

[104] Impatient is the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life.

[105] Urgent.

[106] Yes, urgent, for sure.

[107] The urgent life.

[108] Because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or my energy.

[109] Well, I look at your story and I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something.

[110] Yeah.

[111] You know, and this kind of brings on another point because there's contradictory career advice often we get.

[112] It says, you know, you should stay somewhere long enough because if you leave too quickly, then people are going to look at your resume and think, why were you only there for two years or why were you there for a little while?

[113] But then if, you know, so like, where do you sit on this?

[114] And when to know to quit.

[115] And also there's this overarching phrase, which is like quitting is for losers.

[116] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[117] Oh, gosh.

[118] Well, look, I get criticism of that all the time where people are just like, oh, well, she can't handle adversity.

[119] And I'm like, me?

[120] Are you out of your mind?

[121] It's like if there was a poster child, it would be me. It would be me. You know, no, it's not that I can't handle adversity.

[122] I just put myself first.

[123] Are you selfish?

[124] Yes.

[125] Very.

[126] much so but that is not a bad thing i am at the center of my life no one is above me in my life no one not even my kid and she knows that and i try to instill the same in her no one should be above her in her life because the thing is that like look the life that you're living is yours and i cannot be a great contributor to society and this sounds a little like counterintuitive but i can't be a great contributor to society i can't be a good friend i can't even be a good mom if i am not living the life that i want to live if i'm not wholly happy in it so absolutely i'm selfish when you left ubi you're quoted as saying you don't need to be the savior i think when referencing the state of the company because it was going through a very tumultuous time yeah you can save yourself too yes and save yourself first is what i should have said you know it's like it's all of the ways in which we think about it now right you get on a plane they're going through the safety demonstration they tell you to put your mask on first before you help anybody else yes and in your life too yes save yourself first what was the career advice that you wish someone had given you you know like that young spike lee yeah receptionist be selfish in your life in your career think about yourself all of the time what does being selfish mean like meaning that When you're in a situation that doesn't serve you, you think of yourself first.

[127] Oftentimes we're in these situations that aren't serving us and we're thinking about how the other person is going to feel.

[128] But that means that I have to be, it's the uncertainty that that creates that scares people, right?

[129] Like, well, I've got this job and I quit it.

[130] Where am I going to go?

[131] And like, what am I going to do if I leave this relationship?

[132] What am I going to do?

[133] Where am I going to go?

[134] Well, but you should answer that.

[135] I'm not saying that you quit without the answer.

[136] I'm saying you quit.

[137] You know, it's like, If you keep putting it off, if you keep saying, well, I don't know what I'm going to do, then you're going to waste your life away.

[138] You're going to be so unhappy.

[139] You're going to have the Sunday scaries all the time.

[140] You're going to feel the ick when you're with that person.

[141] You are going to be unsatisfied with your life.

[142] And that is the scariest thing.

[143] I do not want to be on my deathbed being unsatisfied with the life that I lived.

[144] I could go tomorrow and I would be so satisfied with this life.

[145] Why?

[146] because I've done the things I've wanted to do.

[147] Now, look, I have goals.

[148] It doesn't mean I don't have ambition.

[149] It's not like I don't want to do the next thing.

[150] I do want to go to Antarctica at some point.

[151] I have not been yet.

[152] But if I went now, I've lived this life on my own terms.

[153] There's nothing that I did where I feel like, oh, man, I should have made a different choice.

[154] What are you good at?

[155] Like when you when you do the diagnosis of your skill set and what brought you here, because you've had these incredible, incredible, incredible career.

[156] Yeah.

[157] But, you know, we're all bad at loads of stuff.

[158] And I think typically people are good at like a couple of things.

[159] Yeah.

[160] But that's enough.

[161] Yeah.

[162] What are you good at?

[163] I'm good at seeing the forest.

[164] The whole picture.

[165] And sometimes in a forest, you know that you have to clear this area.

[166] in order to make space for the little village.

[167] Because then those villagers can take care of the rest of this part of the forest that is like burning.

[168] You know what I'm saying?

[169] But sometimes people are only down at the trees and then they can't see the burning part and they can't see that they should clear over there so that those people can get to the fire.

[170] I can see the forest.

[171] I can see the whole thing.

[172] And I can see like, okay, this needs to move there.

[173] It's helped me so much in my career for sure.

[174] It's like the change maker.

[175] And how does that make you a great marketeer?

[176] Because I never look at a problem just as the problem.

[177] You know, it's like when I got to Uber, the problem was that there was a huge campaign that was like delete Uber, right?

[178] People are like, oh, they're mad at the company because of lack of diversity in the C -suite and they treat women horribly and they're not paying the drivers and oh, it's unsafe even to get in the car.

[179] And I went in and it's like if I had just tried to like go after one thing, it would have been whack -a -mole.

[180] You know, everywhere I did, okay, pop this one down and this one pops up.

[181] You hit that one and that one pops up.

[182] But I can see the forest.

[183] I can say, ah, this is not an issue about whether or not Travis Kalanick hates women or hates black people.

[184] This is not about whether or not your driver is going to kidnap you.

[185] This is about trust.

[186] Do you trust the CEO of the company?

[187] Do you trust the driver when you get in the car?

[188] Do you trust anything about this whole situation?

[189] Self -driving cars, you trust any of it?

[190] If you don't trust it, nothing I do is going to make you like the company.

[191] I could fix the issue of like, hell, make half of the C -suite people of color and women.

[192] And you would still be like, yeah, but they're going to kidnap me. The best people you've encountered in marketing, what do they have in common?

[193] They're great storytellers.

[194] They can make you believe anything.

[195] Those are great marketers.

[196] The ones who make you believe that you put on a pair of Nikes and somehow you're now LeBron James.

[197] And how do they, what constitutes, what makes a great story?

[198] It's close enough to the truth.

[199] For you to believe it?

[200] Yes.

[201] When I put on any pair of shoes, I'm no LeBron James.

[202] But you probably walk more confidently.

[203] It's true.

[204] So maybe you weren't LeBron, but.

[205] you're a better version of yourself.

[206] If I want to be a great marketer and I'm currently not, what would you, you know, if Liel comes to you and she goes, mom, I want to work in marketing, what's the best, what do I need to do to become a great marketer?

[207] What would you say to Liel?

[208] Be more curious about people.

[209] Ask a lot of questions about people.

[210] Why do they do the things they do?

[211] Why they like the things?

[212] And ask, keep asking the questions.

[213] Like you've got to be really curious about people in order to be a great marketer.

[214] Because you can't just rely on what you know and your experiences, even though I do say that you should be a focus group of one.

[215] It's like if you like the thing, maybe somebody else will like the thing.

[216] If it makes you laugh, maybe somebody else will laugh.

[217] If it makes you scared, somebody else is going to get scared.

[218] If somebody is inspired, somebody else will be inspired.

[219] I believe that.

[220] But you also have to be really curious about why people choose the things that they choose, why they like the things that they like.

[221] If you're not curious about people, you're going to suck at this job.

[222] What's the most important thing we've not talked about?

[223] And I really want to focus this a little bit more.

[224] There's going to be so many young people, not so young people that are listening to this conversation now.

[225] They look at your career and they go, I want to walk that path.

[226] You know, I want to get to, I want to be the CMO of the biggest companies in the world.

[227] CEO of this company.

[228] What's your parting words to those people?

[229] Oh gosh, that's such a hard one.

[230] Because the thing is that there is no, there is no path.

[231] You know, if somebody tells you like, do these steps in order to get to where I've got, they're lying to you.

[232] you're not going to get there based on the things I've done.

[233] The only way you're going to get there is by listening to yourself, is by following your intuition, is by doing the things that you're really good at.

[234] And leave the rest of that stuff that you're not good at, that other people are trying to advise you, leave that alone.

[235] So if there's any advice, get to know yourself better.

[236] That's it.

[237] We often confuse.

[238] aspiration with admiration we can i can admire someone without aspiring to walk their path and i think i think yeah i remember reading a poem one day about like the only great person you can be is the greatest version of yourself it's super cliche but it's unbelievable because i could not be steve jobs or no thomas sadison or martin luther king it's not it's not my greatness no exactly don't try to be me ever If this conversation today has challenged your assumptions in any way, that's probably a good thing because that's where growth begins.

[239] And if you're ready to start reaching people in a way that actually connects, our sponsor LinkedIn is offering you a $100 ad credit.

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[241] That's linkedin .com slash diary.