S3 E7: Walking Into the Belly of the Beast

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that could be triggering to some.

[11] Opinions expressed by guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] All resources, books, and sources mentioned on the podcast can be found linked in the episode notes.

[14] Please note, names have been changed in the story for anonymity purposes.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is struggling with a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 -7 at 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] Please note, some of today's episode involves suicidal ideation or thoughts of suicide.

[18] Please take care when listening.

[19] Thank you.

[20] You think you know me, you don't know me where at home.

[21] Think you know me, you don't know me where.

[22] Here's something else that happened that was so bizarre.

[23] The Saturday before Ted died, Patty had her third granddaughter.

[24] from her first of her daughters.

[25] And I said, we better go.

[26] We're never going to hear about this if we don't go.

[27] We're going to be in trouble.

[28] And Ted was like, I don't want to go.

[29] Why are we going?

[30] I was like, come on.

[31] We have to go.

[32] Do you want to live with Patty being ticked off at you?

[33] And he was really upset.

[34] And I'm like, what is wrong with you?

[35] And he's like, nothing.

[36] And we get to the hospital.

[37] And Ted was leaning up against the wall.

[38] I was.

[39] up by the bed to see the baby because mommy was holding the baby and Patty was like on the other wall and you could definitely looking at it hindsight now like those two had a fight no doubt about it so something was brewing even before this happened before all this happened we had zero complaints about Kurt I mean he was always nice he He would always help Brad out if Brad had questions about, like, Brad started getting into, like, trying to build, like, some furniture because, you know, that's what his dad always did.

[40] So then my husband kind of, like, wanted to get into that, too, just as, like, a hobby.

[41] And he would share, he would share that kind of stuff with Kurt.

[42] They had a, they had somewhat of a friendship, like, because, of course, like, they work together, too.

[43] But, yeah, they would share, like, hunting stuff.

[44] Kurt would send him, you know, pictures of, like, what was caught on a trail cam and vice versa during hunting season.

[45] And apparently, Patty hated that.

[46] So, like, we found that out later, but whatever.

[47] It's, like, harmless.

[48] But we never had any complaints about Kurt.

[49] He was always nice to us.

[50] We didn't go over to their house.

[51] We didn't accept their invites over there because of Patty.

[52] You know, when we used to go over there for functions or holidays, it seemed like not only that they have a pretty good marriage, which, you know, people in every marriage have problems, obviously, but it seemed like they also had a really good friendship, too.

[53] And I think that's important because, you know, Brad and I, aside from our marriage, like, he's my best friend.

[54] He's somebody I can laugh with and joke with.

[55] And I think that's important.

[56] It seemed like that's how Patty and Kurt were as well.

[57] Like, they joked around good together.

[58] But she would always make sure to say, like, oh, like he has freedom to do whatever he wants.

[59] Like, I don't control this.

[60] Like, you know, we work on our finances together.

[61] like he can he can do whatever just as long as he's safe i don't care she always seemed like she was very chill about not controlling her husband in any way well i would notice with on the fire department like if they all went out to eat after say like a union meeting or if they ordered lunch in like it started going around it was just known that kirt wasn't allowed to do that because patty didn't allow them to spend money on eating out.

[62] And in my head, like, this was before everything came out.

[63] It was at a time that I knew she was kind of a liar and a manipulator, but I didn't know how bad.

[64] And in the back of my mind, I would just kind of like make note, like, huh, so she's telling me, like, she doesn't control stuff, yet it's known around the department that he's not allowed to spend money on things like going out to eat or this or that.

[65] it has to go into savings, you know, she really controlled their finances.

[66] So it was just like those little things, like, okay, well, she lied.

[67] I hate the thought, like, like, we always say, like, what, what is it that made him do that?

[68] Was it that he thought that he, you know, did she call and say, like, hey, you know, Kirk found out about this, like, stay, stay away from my family, like, stay away, blah, blah, blah.

[69] Like, was it the, Was it the thought of him losing her that made him do this?

[70] I don't think so.

[71] And that's what, like, my mother -in -law, like, said, you know, like, last year.

[72] Well, hopefully he didn't do this, like, on her account.

[73] I personally, like, my opinion on it is that he found out who she was, just like we did, and realized the destruction that, like, both him and her caused, and he allowed, he allowed himself to be, like, controlled by her.

[74] And I think that, I feel like he just realized, like, oh, my God, I've done this to my family.

[75] I've done this for her and, like, she's a fraud.

[76] So I just think he had a rude awakening of her personality and thought, well, my family are never going to forgive me for this.

[77] That's my opinion.

[78] I don't know.

[79] And we'll never know.

[80] And that breaks my heart.

[81] I just wish he picked up the phone and called somebody.

[82] And as far as Kurt finding out, and I don't know if he had correspondence with Ted about it, but my husband's aunt, they told us that Ted would say, well, you know, Patty had told me, like, we need to cut back on the text messages because Kurt's getting suspicious again.

[83] And I don't know if Kurt knew that it was my father -in -law on the other end of those text messages or not, but that he was getting suspicious.

[84] and that she needed to back off texting so much.

[85] And then I think about that time that she told me that Kurt kicked her out of her bedroom, out of their bedroom for, I forget how many days it was, days a week, I don't know.

[86] But she wouldn't tell me what happened.

[87] She said it wasn't an argument, but that he said he found out about something she was doing and said she's going to go to hell for what she's doing.

[88] So I don't know, I don't know what it was.

[89] Kurt's pretty nice.

[90] and it kind of really surprised me that he would actually insist that she not sleep in their bedroom so I keep thinking of that and I'm like, did he know about this for years and just chose to a shit outside?

[91] I mean, I don't think that's possible.

[92] Well, he's still with her.

[93] Or even as a woman, you can do that.

[94] Yeah, he's still with her.

[95] And you know what?

[96] Maybe he's terrified of her, Tiffany.

[97] I don't know.

[98] I think he knows exactly who she is.

[99] He just chooses to try to keep his family together, you know, at this point, if they were to divorce, let's be honest, like, he would lose a lot of his money, like, and probably, like, half of his pension or whatever to her.

[100] Like, I have to think about it in those ways, because those are things that people do think about, even though, like, your happiness shouldn't equal, like, how much money you have.

[101] I mean, like, that's my take on it.

[102] Like, if I lost everything, I'd rather be happy and poor than the opposite.

[103] it, but people, especially in that generation, don't always think that.

[104] So I don't know if that's just what's keeping him there.

[105] I don't know if he's trying to keep his kids, like in a, I don't know if he doesn't want to hurt his kids by taking, like, further action.

[106] I don't know.

[107] Maybe he just thinks it's easier to stay with her than break up, but I think he knows exactly who she is.

[108] And maybe he's just terrified to leave.

[109] We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

[110] Who knows what maybe she's threatened him before with something.

[111] I don't know.

[112] Do you worry that you'll run into her?

[113] Sometimes, yes.

[114] Yep.

[115] What do you think you would do?

[116] Just run the other direction.

[117] Oh, I'll never run.

[118] I will turn around and I will walk away.

[119] Because for a narcissist, that is the worst thing you will possibly do.

[120] Just ignore them.

[121] Just ignore them.

[122] Now I know there's many, many people that would like to have a word with Patty.

[123] Many.

[124] Because I truly do believe that she has blood on her hands.

[125] And she's got to live with what she's created.

[126] But I think she's moved on.

[127] I truly do.

[128] I think that Ted was just a moment in time for her.

[129] All the promises that she made to him, she didn't keep one.

[130] She didn't keep one you know and i think ted god rest the soul had to live with the shame and i just think as righteous of a man he was it just got so much the shame the pain the fear of being alone he realized what he had done to his family his son and you know and and and i'm sure i don't for a moment, not believe, you know, things that caused from his job, things from his military career all played into all of that.

[131] And it just, whatever happened that day, happened in a split second.

[132] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[133] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[134] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[135] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[136] What happens next depends on who you ask.

[137] Was it a crime of passion?

[138] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[139] This was clearly an intentional act.

[140] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[141] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[142] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent, one of their own from going down.

[143] Everyone had an opinion.

[144] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[145] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[146] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[147] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[148] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcast, or Spotify.

[149] I'm Dan Tversky.

[150] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[151] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[152] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[153] She's like, I can't.

[154] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[155] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[156] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[157] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[158] Well, you were holding something back.

[159] Intentionally.

[160] Yeah, yeah.

[161] Well, yeah.

[162] No, it's hysteria.

[163] It's all in your head.

[164] It's not physical.

[165] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[166] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[167] Or is it something else entirely?

[168] Something's wrong here.

[169] Something's not right.

[170] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[171] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[172] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[173] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[174] After everything came out, it was weird.

[175] It was like the first few days or a week before I knew that there was something else going on.

[176] Like the guilt that I felt, I'm like, he was obviously depressed and he could have been like, you know, he obviously had some undiagnosed disorder and oh my God, like we didn't help him.

[177] Like we just gave up on him.

[178] Like I went from feeling like such guilt to then all this stuff coming out that he was.

[179] participated in and for a while for a couple of months my mindset was well ted like you're better off gone if you were going to be like that like that's so ignorant to be like but really that's how i felt well if you were going to be that way and if you could do that to your son and if you could do that to all of us and your wife you're better off just gone that was my mindset at the time now thanks to podcasts like yours and thanks to like reading up on these type of things about how how these people adopt their abusers' personalities, I feel like that's kind of what happened, because now we grieve for the Ted that used to be.

[180] He used to be such a gentleman.

[181] He used to do anything to help anybody.

[182] Family was first.

[183] He would have done anything for anybody, and he was very loving.

[184] He was, like, full of life.

[185] And that's who we grieve for now.

[186] Because Because even though, like, Patty opened that door and he chose to walk through it, he didn't know he was getting involved with a psychopath.

[187] So he started to adopt a lot of the crap that she would do, you know, question people on like, oh, wait, you said you had this for dinner last night.

[188] What do you mean?

[189] Like, I thought you had the stupidest things, the stupidest things.

[190] And it sounded like he just adopted her habits.

[191] and he started treating Victoria like crap because that's how Patty would treat her and that's how she wanted to she wanted her to be treated so Ted started doing it which isn't an excuse like dude you're an adult like if you know it's wrong just don't do it I just think he got in way over his head and I don't think he even realized that this was a type of mental abuse that people could put on other people it's like I don't want to put it all on Patty because like he chose to do that, but it's also, like I said, I just don't think he realized who he was getting involved with and what she was capable of doing.

[192] I mean, look, like I said to, you know, I said to Brad like so many times, hey, she had me convinced until I got my shit together and realized, like, she wasn't a good person.

[193] He didn't, he didn't come to that realization.

[194] I don't think until very late.

[195] And I know that he started telling like the really close friends of his that knew of the situation and what was going on like he would start telling them like she's nuts she's nuts i don't think that he knew how to get out of it though without blowing the cover off of everything and you know one thing that ted was is he was a very very prideful he didn't like to make mistakes i just don't think he knew how to get out of it and i think you know he he definitely knew brad's like stance on cheating like my husband's very against to that obviously which why everybody should be, but Brad's just very passionate about, like, you don't do that, that's inexcusable.

[196] So it kind of breaks my heart, like, at the end, I keep thinking, like, I wonder if Ted just thought that he had literally nobody to call.

[197] He had no one left because he did, he took part in kind of helping almost destroy this family.

[198] Whenever he, he definitely could have called, like Brad would have opened the door with open arms.

[199] He just wanted his dad back at that point, but no, I just think, he adopted a lot of personalities of Patty, and it got way over his head.

[200] I think had a little bit of, maybe a little bit of narcissists in him.

[201] It was a very proud, righteous type of man. He had some OCD.

[202] He had to be perfect in everything he did.

[203] I take that as being the firstborn.

[204] He did not like people to see him fail.

[205] He did not like people to see him as a failure.

[206] He used to tell me all the time that he was Superman.

[207] And I said, you're not Superman.

[208] He's like, yeah, it is.

[209] It's underneath my clothes.

[210] You can't see it.

[211] You know, and I try to remember that's the man I married.

[212] That's the man I fell in love with, and that's the number.

[213] And I will love forever.

[214] The one that turned into that person that I put in the ground last March 7th.

[215] It's not the man I married.

[216] I don't know who he was.

[217] Yeah, so after everything happened, we moved mom into my house, mine in CJ's house for four or six months or something like that.

[218] You know, I just didn't want her thrown right back into that house, you know, right away by herself.

[219] She says, we're going to stand on our feet and take this thing head on.

[220] We're going to be here for each other.

[221] We're going to do this.

[222] And that was easier said than done for me, too.

[223] You know, I'm like human being, you know, but I just wanted to be strong from my mom.

[224] And, you know, it was hard.

[225] It was really hard.

[226] We had some pretty tough times.

[227] You know, mom was telling me stories of telling me some of the last things that he did, you know.

[228] My dad and I would stay up.

[229] You know, when I lived at the house, we would stay up and play music clips, you know, and play music, like, all the time.

[230] And just, like, my dad always had this, like, stupid thing, but he did it since I was a kid.

[231] You know, my dad grew up in the 70s and 80s, and you'd hear, like, like a big hair band and every single it didn't matter if i was seven years old or 27 he'd turn around go who's this you know and like you know who sings this you know what i you know we always did that you know always listen to music and stuff like that and we would do that you know when i lived at the house if it was a weekend we'd stay up till two o 'clock in the morning just screwing off doing that you know my mom told me a story uh you know right before you know maybe the winter of you know 17 leading into 2018 when we lost him you know he was he was doing that listen to music and she was like well I'm going to bed and she knew what he was doing you know my dad and I did that all the time and she turned and she was like aren't you missing someone for that and uh and uh she said that you know he almost started crying and uh he just like he said his eyes just kind of welled up and he just looked at her and just went right back to the laptop and just started you know just kept on going you know and I broke down you know I'm a mess you know I'm just like oh my gosh you know it's just like I feel like complete crap you know and you know stuff like yeah my mom and I were sharing the good times and and in the real bad and you know the things that she was living with at the house again my dad wasn't physically abusive just it was just a mental beat down a constant mental beat down to the point to where they were they were roommates have 10 times better relationship you know what I mean like he'd be in one room she'd be in another he'd be watching one totally separate C TV in one room she'd be watching another so we really kind of hashed a really kind of got where she was coming from and I feel pretty awful not knowing she kind of kept that from us kids of how bad it was with her and him and the things that she was going through and uh this is the most bittersweet thing of my life losing my dad has been an absolute bomb going off and we're still a year and a couple months later picking up the pieces of losing him things would obviously be better and easier if he was here we miss him for everything but if this is what he was going to do this is how he was going to treat my mom leave my mom do whatever my mom was wanted my parents they wanted their she wanted their relationship to work so much and every single issue coral fight good thing bad thing she'd tell patty was her best friend she'd tell her daddy would be there for she would this and that you know and it was just walking into the belly of the beast you know and and I mean my heart just broke from my mom but it's bittersweet and it's sweet and the aspect of my mom now knows everything my dad's gone and that's a that's a huge blow but all the deception's gone too you know my mom my mom always had her faith.

[232] She wasn't, maybe not always practicing or whatever.

[233] She really came to her faith in this.

[234] You know, I've really tried to pick her up in her faith to help her through this.

[235] You know, she had told me, you know, she's like, I kept praying, I kept praying for things to get fixed.

[236] I kept praying for things to get fixed.

[237] And I said, well, you know, dad made his decisions and stuff.

[238] I says, but you got your answer, you know, whether dad wasn't good for you, Patty was not good for you And I says you definitely got your answer I don't know how he did everything I don't know how everything works But it's a lot better now isn't it Like you're not walking into Some hellhole of a house Not you know dealing with my dad Not knowing what kind of guy he was going to be that night What kind of mood he would be in You're not telling your quote unquote Best friend every walking moment of your life Only knowing that she's using it against you Or whatever You know I'm like isn't that like liberating.

[239] She's like, you have no idea.

[240] She's like, I would apologize to Patty like 10 times a week for stuff that I didn't even know I did.

[241] I would just like constantly apologize, apologize, apologize.

[242] And my mom, I mean, I wouldn't fly with me. I certainly wouldn't fly with my wife.

[243] My wife, I love her to death.

[244] She will tell you to crap in your hat and a heartbeat, you know, so, but my mom was not that way.

[245] She's very, you know, passive, very kind of submissive and I'm sorry if I hurt you.

[246] I'm really sorry.

[247] And I told my mom, I'm like, don't you just feel better, though?

[248] Isn't it so bittersweet?

[249] You know, we lost dad, and it is like, I feel like I've just been gutted.

[250] But in a sense, it's like, you know what, man, you made your choices.

[251] You almost, you and Patty almost single -handedly destroyed this family.

[252] And it's all gone now.

[253] In a sense, it's horrifying.

[254] In another sense, it's so liberating.

[255] I thank God for it.

[256] It's just a weird, weird situation.

[257] It's so, it's, it's, so, it's such a, it's such a paradox.

[258] It's, you know, it's such good and such bad that really got a lot closer to my mom.

[259] Obviously, we're very close now.

[260] And, and I felt very ashamed that she was dealing with all that stuff.

[261] And I thought she was, if she wasn't aiding in it, she most certainly wasn't doing anything to help, you know, we've talked to her.

[262] And ever since then, she was like, listen, I would try to bring it up.

[263] And he would scream and yell and this and that and I would do things and I would you know and he's like and he found out that you and I were talking there in the last six months and he told me like you're not to talk to him blah blah and you know she's like that's my son you ain't going to tell me what I am and I you know my mom started to put her big girl pants on there toward the end and she started figuring stuff out to you know a little bit a little bit not not to this magnitude obviously but she started to really stand up herself kind of like no this isn't kind of how it's be and it and it never was like that it never was like that growing up it wasn't like that in my early 20s it really really wasn't like that i mean it just never this was not my dad you know and that's in the whole time like trying to deal with his funk like five years of him not talking to myself or my wife and it's just like who is this guy i mean you literally just took out my dad and put some someone else was driving his boat and it's like who is ted like who is he like who is this guy i don't know him I don't even know, like, and he was not like that to my mom.

[264] He was so loving.

[265] We were such a close family and fun and all this stuff.

[266] And we just like, like, I don't know, like a blue -collar American family vacations and fun.

[267] It was just us, you know, and it's just like, well, you know, he made his decisions.

[268] So, I mean, you know, I probably six months after I lost my dad, my best friend, you know, I can't say that.

[269] enough.

[270] Dealing, you know, six months, eight months after I lost my best friend, I would start telling people, going down this road is not, you know, like you want to screw around, you want to do this or that, you want to be to say, you know, hide something from somebody.

[271] Listen, you might get away with it.

[272] You might get some instant gratification, whether it's an affair or whatever you're doing.

[273] You know, but it's, you have to understand the ripple effect that this is going to cause you're hurting someone.

[274] You know, your destructive decisions has a ripple effect in this life.

[275] You are going to affect someone.

[276] Maybe one person, maybe 100, maybe a thousand, maybe millions.

[277] I don't know.

[278] I'm just saying you, the decisions you make are going to have a ripple effect.

[279] But also be up front and be honest with people.

[280] I still have that trust, but verify.

[281] You would assume that, well, yeah, this person told me, I believe it to be true.

[282] I mean, you deal with it, people deal with it at work all the time.

[283] Oh, yeah, guess what?

[284] I heard this, this, this, you know, and this.

[285] Are you serious?

[286] You know, that's crazy.

[287] What a...

[288] Then you finally hear out down to it?

[289] That didn't happen.

[290] It happens every day.

[291] What's that old game we used to play as a kids in grade school?

[292] A telephone game?

[293] You tell one kid in the class.

[294] It was a game.

[295] You know, by the time I got to 30 kids, or through 30 kids, it was so twisted and distorted.

[296] You know, it was supposed to be a fun game.

[297] But that's adults do that crap.

[298] You need to verify before you put some serious.

[299] serious weight into what people say, especially if it's some people you love, pick up that phone and, you know, listen, is this what's going on?

[300] Is this what's, you know, get to the bottom of it.

[301] You settle that.

[302] If it's a quarrel or something hurt for or whatever, you better squash that right real quick or if it's just going to manifest because you don't know if you're dealing with a patty or I'll go as far as a Ted.

[303] My own dad made his decisions.

[304] He did his things.

[305] He did, you know, he was deceptive and the things that he partook in.

[306] So that was a lot.

[307] be the big thing.

[308] Don't go down the road of, you know, it sounds obvious and it's not just an affair, but things that are going to hurt other people, you know, and I'll share a little bit, you know, the biggest thing Jesus said was to love God and love others, because it does have ripple effects sometimes catastrophically, so that's what that would be my advice, so.

[309] Thank you so much.

[310] I'm so sorry for everything that you guys have gone through.

[311] It's just, it's so heartbreaking I don't even know what else to say except for I'm sorry well that's all right I appreciate you appreciate you listening to us like I said I'm not CJ's real big in the in the podcast thing and you know and I uh she told me she wanted to do this and I was like I just kind of sat for like really like you really want to peel open our life even more to other people but you know and I and I and I thought about it and I told I told CJ I says you know if it's if it helps one person person, one person, then thank God for it.

[312] Maybe all it needs is to help one person.

[313] So if it does, I think that there would be a success.

[314] Yeah.

[315] This sounds so crazy, but, you know, my father -in -law was one of those people that he cared so much what other people thought.

[316] Like, whenever anybody was stopping over, like, the house had to be immaculate.

[317] Like, he just, like, he didn't ever want to look bad or, like, look a certain way.

[318] Like, he just, you know, he didn't care about, like, his image.

[319] and he cared that they, you know, so it's like, I said to my husband, like, I can't believe, like, he did that knowing that people would obviously, like, see him and everybody in the city would be over there seeing that because knowing him, he's so damn prideful.

[320] Like, he would never want somebody to see him that way.

[321] So for him to do that, that's why I kept saying, like, are you sure this was a suicide?

[322] Like, kind of person that he was, like, and this is going to sound offensive, but it's just how he was.

[323] He's like, what a dumb ass, you know, like, I can't believe, like, who the hell would do that?

[324] Like, what a waste.

[325] the thought of suicide with him like he just always had that mindset like what kind of dumbass would do that and that's why i'm like how how are we talking about him doing that because i mean my eyes have been so wide open to that this can happen to anybody like if you're in a low enough place and like i said i'm sure mental health had something to do with it i'm sure he was depressed and losing ted is a huge loss in this family and in saying that my children and I and their spouses we now have a bond that no one will ever come between us.

[326] There is no person that will ever become become between me and my family ever again.

[327] And my son and daughter have shown me such inner strength and I'm so proud of them to see what they had to see that their dad did.

[328] And to still stay strong, I couldn't be a prouder parent.

[329] And I thank God every day that he gave me two fantastic children, and they have fantastic spouses.

[330] What the bishops have been through is incredibly heartbreaking and traumatizing.

[331] I am struck by their resilience.

[332] They have used this tragedy as a catalyst for healing.

[333] in their family.

[334] It has been an honor to get to know them, and I hope one day to fly to Pennsylvania for a huge group hug.

[335] As I've shared previously, my father -in -law, Papa, died a few months ago, right as I was rapping season two.

[336] Editing season three while grieving has been extremely emotional at times, and also very cathartic.

[337] The murder of my brother in 2012 taught me what grief felt like, so I could relate to those sentiments when interviewing the bishops this past summer.

[338] However, being able to bond with C .J. Now, who also lost her father -in -law has been a really special thing for her and I. I'm really thankful that the bishops have been brought into my life.

[339] It is an extremely difficult thing to do, to be this vulnerable and share the most traumatizing thing that has ever happened to you.

[340] I began interviewing C .J. this past summer, around 4th of July.

[341] Many months before my father -in -law had passed away.

[342] away.

[343] A few weeks ago, when I was editing footage, I heard the following clip and was blown away.

[344] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[345] I'm Sachi Cole.

[346] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[347] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[348] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[349] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[350] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[351] Follow scamfluencers on the Wondrey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[352] You can listen to Scam Fluencers early and ad free right now on Wondry Plus.

[353] So fresh.

[354] It's like this just happened.

[355] A year is nothing.

[356] Like two years is nothing in the scheme of life when you've lost somebody.

[357] Like that's, it's so fresh.

[358] It's so real.

[359] Like going through holidays the first time, the second time, the third time.

[360] It's all new.

[361] It's like you don't, you're just figuring out how to live.

[362] a new normal.

[363] Yeah, I know, and it's still so weird.

[364] Like, you, like, you know, I think, okay, this happened last year.

[365] I'm like, oh, my God, it feels like it happened five years ago.

[366] I mean, it just feels like so much time has passed, but it hasn't.

[367] And even, like, Victoria lived with us for a few months after all this happened, which was really awesome.

[368] Honestly, like, it really helped all of us reconnect.

[369] Her and her son got, like, it kind of made up all that missed time that they had because I know whenever I met Brad he was a mama's boy like him and his mom were so close he would tell her everything and to see like the total disconnect the last few years was like to think of it now I'm like I cannot believe that ever happened but having her here with us a few months you know we we all reconnected it was great well you know I hosted a lot of holidays and anything like it seemed like kind of that first I don't want to say a whole year, but I hosted a lot of holidays for a long time.

[370] Once she moved back to her house, like, she's now hosting things again over at her house and even being there for holidays.

[371] Like, I hate to say it, but it's just, I don't hate it, but I'm not used to it.

[372] Because all I think about, like, on the 4th of July, I was sitting out on the deck, and all I could think about was like, Ted coming out the back door, being like, all right, you know, hey, anybody want a beer?

[373] Like, just his old, happy, go lucky self.

[374] And I think that that's why I've been in such a funk these last couple weeks because the 4th of July was here and I just left feeling really sad and I've been in a funk ever since.

[375] But even for me as not being a daughter of his, I can't imagine how it is for his own family.

[376] Like, I'm not used to it.

[377] So I know the rest of the family is probably still getting used to it.

[378] It's going to take a while.

[379] Yeah, it takes time.

[380] And, like, I mean, my brother has been gone since 2012.

[381] Well.

[382] And still, like, you know, on Christmas, I think about him or, you know, I think about him every day for sure.

[383] But it does get, it does become normal, even though it still hurts.

[384] And it's, and I remember somebody saying that to me when my brother died, they said, I know all day every day, this is what you think about.

[385] But in about two or three years, you will think about other things.

[386] And a day will go by where you don't think about this happening.

[387] Really?

[388] And it just, it kind of gave me hope.

[389] Because that happened yet?

[390] Like, do you, are you there?

[391] Oh, really?

[392] I'm able to, like, after, I think the first three, four years were extremely difficult.

[393] But I think now I'm able to be like, I'm so thankful that I had him for the amount of time I did.

[394] And despite the complications that he and I had in our relationship, because there were many, I'm just so happy for the good years.

[395] Like you said, I separate the two.

[396] I separate the negative and I just celebrate the good.

[397] and try and think of, like, traditions or things that made me happy that we did together.

[398] And I try to, you know, for example, like, we used to always go to Chinese food around Christmas time.

[399] And so now every year, my husband and our kids, like, we do that now, you know.

[400] And it's just like a small, it's not like a sad event now.

[401] It's like a fun.

[402] Yeah.

[403] It's like, yeah, this is like what we do to like, you know, just honor that this was a fun thing.

[404] That was a thing that I loved about this person.

[405] And I feel like if he is looking down in some way, it probably, you know, makes him feel happy and I feel connected to him to be able to, like, do that.

[406] Whereas before it was just, you know, that constant feeling of why or I could have done this.

[407] I should have done that.

[408] I just feel like over time you're able to sort of see things from a more of a bird's eye view versus feeling like you're right in the middle of a pit of fight.

[409] Right.

[410] If that makes sense.

[411] It's like a drone view versus like a up close and personal view where it's just all you can see is like pain.

[412] and anger.

[413] Like, I just felt angry for so long, too.

[414] That gives me some hope.

[415] Yeah.

[416] It does.

[417] Like I said, it's, yeah, like I said, it's weird, because it's like he wasn't my father.

[418] Like, I have a father.

[419] I have an amazing father.

[420] You know, I don't, I didn't need another father figure in my life.

[421] But, you know, Ted really treated me like one of his kids.

[422] And, you know, like I said, he was my buddy for a long time.

[423] And just, I just feel like the guilt every day.

[424] I just, I'm just so sad.

[425] Like, like, I'm so sad all the time, and I shouldn't be.

[426] And then, you know, I look at Brad, like, I look at him and I'm like, damn, like, I mean, he was a father to you.

[427] He was your father -in -law.

[428] And, like, my father -in -law has done more for me in my life than my real father ever did.

[429] I will be devastated when he passes someday.

[430] If you think something is wrong, always trust your gut because your gut is never wrong.

[431] If you notice a friend or a loved one who used to be full of life, and happiness, start pulling away from everyone with no reason shown to you.

[432] Don't stop trying to help them.

[433] Don't stop trying to get in.

[434] Don't give up on them.

[435] Keep telling them that you're there.

[436] Make sure that they know that they always have somebody there if they ever need anything.

[437] Just don't give up on them.

[438] And if your circle doesn't want the best for you, get a new one because the people closest in your life should definitely be applauding when good things happen to you.

[439] If they're not, question why you have them around.

[440] You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

[441] Something was wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[442] Music on the show by the band, Gladrags.

[443] You can find them on iTunes, band camp, all over the place.

[444] They're also on Instagram, so check them out.

[445] I'd like to thank the Bishop family for being so vulnerable and brave.

[446] If you want to hang out some more, you can add me on Instagram.

[447] I am at Looky Boo.

[448] L -O -O -K -I -E -B -O.

[449] We also have a hashtag, Something Was Wrong, Pod on Instagram.

[450] Also, if you are interested in any of the materials, sources, sponsors mentioned on the podcast, you can check them out under the episode and show notes.

[451] Also, we will be having another Q &A episode this season, so start sending your questions in.

[452] You can email me, text me, find me on Insta, whatever you want.

[453] Thank you so much.

[454] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[455] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[456] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.