S12 E2: People Are Watching

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] Episodes can discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, and murder.

[12] I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[13] If you're in need of support, please visit something was wrong .com slash resources for a list of nonprofit organizations that can help.

[14] Some names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[15] Opinions expressed by the guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or audio chuck.

[16] Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[19] I didn't sleep that whole night.

[20] I had these weird, lucid dreams of the government coming for me. I also sat up and was doing research all night, what to expect.

[21] So I was like, okay, so you can come over.

[22] So he came over the next morning and he sat down with me on the couch and he laid out his story and he's like, here's what happened.

[23] When Ruth's mom was pregnant with her, she was about eight months in and I was out at a coffee shop and he's like, I don't even drink coffee.

[24] And he like doesn't drink coffee and he's like, that's probably why I don't drink it anymore.

[25] I was out at a coffee shop in the city and there was a table of five people near me and these guys, these two guys, parked their car and in front of the place and walked in and shot the five people next to me, all five of them, and left.

[26] And he's like, and I hit under a table, and I was close enough that literally blood splattered on me. And not long after that, within a 12 -hour period, the government showed up and spoke to me and two other people, maybe three other people, that also witnessed this and explained that that these guys were dangerous.

[27] They were part of a, I think it was a drug cartel, is what he told me. And that they were taking him into witness protection and that they needed him to testify because putting this one guy behind bars is going to help them out a lot.

[28] And that now you're in this.

[29] And he's like, and then they showed up at Ruth's mom's door to tell her.

[30] It's amazing.

[31] And so me and Ruth and her mom have been in this program ever since.

[32] It's me, mostly.

[33] And he's like, but Ruth and her mother are unfortunately catalysts of this whole thing.

[34] They also have to be kept safe because, you know, it's all kind of crazy and dangerous.

[35] And so I'm sitting there like, what the hell?

[36] I'm wide -eyed.

[37] Now, I come from a family of cops and firefighters.

[38] So I have heard stories from my dad who was a detective in a big city.

[39] I grew up hearing crazy stories from him.

[40] So it wasn't totally far.

[41] It's wild, but at the same time, these things do happen.

[42] People get shot every day.

[43] And I sat there knowing that.

[44] This stuff does happen.

[45] When he's sitting there, looking me in the eyes and telling me this whole story, I mean, it's wild, but it's not the wildest thing in the world.

[46] So now he's like, that's why you can't find me online.

[47] Because all of my stuff, I cannot be on the internet.

[48] I have to keep my stuff really, really private.

[49] It's just how it is.

[50] That's also why I was on your doorstep early.

[51] I have agents that are with me, and sometimes their schedules when they have to switch over are a little bit off, and they have to make sure I get into a location safely before they switch.

[52] I'm sorry if that kind of threw you off.

[53] That's also why I don't drive anywhere.

[54] They drive me everywhere currently.

[55] This has been going on for a couple years.

[56] The court case is happening at the end of this year, and after that, this is all going to be over.

[57] There is a light at the end of this tunnel.

[58] I'm not going to be in this program forever, but I needed to lay all.

[59] of that out for you so that you understand.

[60] And then he goes, if you do not want anything to do with me, I totally do not blame you.

[61] This is a lot to take in.

[62] You have every right to step away right now.

[63] It's like, this is a lot to take it.

[64] I'm not going to lie.

[65] I told him I was going to think about it and that I needed to learn a lot more.

[66] If I was going to stick with him and sign up for this, I needed to do a lot of learning.

[67] I wasn't sure how I felt about it.

[68] It's scared.

[69] and it's dangerous and what does that mean for me?

[70] There's a lot of questions that are involved.

[71] Do I need to talk to the feds?

[72] Like, how is this going to go?

[73] He was like, I completely understand.

[74] So he left, and that was how he ended that conversation.

[75] Kenzie found out about Joe being in witness protection right before he was set to leave for Thailand with his brother for a few weeks early in March 2020.

[76] I had time to think while he was away, which was good.

[77] He made me promised not to tell anybody.

[78] and I did keep that promise because I was afraid that I was getting tracked.

[79] What if the government's listening to my shit right now?

[80] What if they're eavesdropping on me right now?

[81] They could hack into my phone, my computer, my security system, like anything and be listening to me. I'm going to be good because that's what I feel like I need to be doing.

[82] But at the same time, I'm also not completely naive.

[83] I wasn't going to not tell anybody.

[84] He's getting ready to leave for Thailand And I'm in this place where I have to think about this And I decide I need to talk to somebody in a smart way I decide that I'm going to go to my really good friend's house Down the street I have a key to her place I'm going to let myself in I'm going to have a note in my hand that says Leave your phone, we're going for a walk And I'm going to tell her everything I didn't want any electronics with us Kenzie decided to walk to her friend Josie's house to share what Joe had told her about being in the witness protection program.

[85] I fly myself and it's like 10 o 'clock and I get in there and she wakes up and she was like, what are you doing here?

[86] I was like, I need to talk to you.

[87] So she's like, okay.

[88] And then I like, okay, be quiet.

[89] And then I give her this note and it basically says, I want to go for a walk, leave your phone.

[90] It's important.

[91] It was pretty straightforward.

[92] She knows me well enough.

[93] I am the opposite of a drama queen.

[94] I'm like the peacemaker of everybody.

[95] I'm the one who makes situations more chill.

[96] We go for a walk and I tell her everything.

[97] And she gives me her honest friend opinion.

[98] I chose because she was the one that I knew was going to be the most level -headed and really look at this realistically.

[99] What are the odds of this?

[100] Is this real?

[101] Is this worth like this connection that I felt the last two months where we're already saying, I love you.

[102] I'm really enjoying this person.

[103] And she was in a similar boat as me as like, these things do actually happen.

[104] We're not supposed to know about them.

[105] But more than anything, I want you to be safe.

[106] And I'm glad that you have told me. So just like, I'll be the friend that you keep in the loop.

[107] That's why I told my friend Josie about all of this because I knew that she was going to be a good sounding board for me. Finally, it was time for him to head out to Thailand.

[108] And we are still chatting.

[109] I haven't written him off.

[110] I'm still not quite comfortable.

[111] I'm asking a lot of questions.

[112] He's sort of giving me the lowdown of what to expect with this situation.

[113] He says, I want to call you before I get on the plane.

[114] I want to chat with you.

[115] I miss you.

[116] Sure, great.

[117] We talked for like 45 minutes.

[118] It was like my whole lunch break.

[119] And while we're chatting, he's like, okay, one of the feds is calling me over.

[120] I got to go.

[121] I'm getting the look right now.

[122] And I was like, okay, no problem.

[123] He was really particularly excited about this trip because he told me that when he was going to be over in Thailand that the feds don't actually have to follow him over there because it's so far away that there's no threat of danger.

[124] And this was going to be the first time in years that he's really gotten to like be on his own and spend time with his brother.

[125] And he was really excited about that freedom.

[126] While away, Joe set up a chat app for them to be able to communicate for free internationally.

[127] The entire time that he was there, he was in touch with me. We were on 12 -hour differences.

[128] Like, you know, it's 12 a .m. here and it's 12 p .m. there.

[129] So it was really only half the day that we could chat.

[130] But when we could, he was constantly in touch, sending me things the whole time, showing me the room he was staying in, show me the beach that he was on.

[131] I felt so good with how in touch he was with me. Early in a relationship, you don't usually get that kind of attention, let alone when somebody's halfway across the world.

[132] And I really appreciated that.

[133] And that made me feel so affectionate towards him.

[134] I thought we were going to potentially fizzle out when he left to Thailand, especially after he dropped that bomb on me about witness protection.

[135] But really, we were chatting just as good as ever.

[136] Being the person that I am who is attracted to personalities, I really liked that.

[137] And that was what I was looking for.

[138] As he's in Thailand, COVID began, which was terrifying.

[139] I'm here living alone.

[140] The pandemic is starting, as we all know, absolutely terrifying.

[141] And he's over in Thailand where there was a couple cases there first before they were in America.

[142] But in the two weeks that he was there, all of a sudden we had hundreds of cases here in America.

[143] They had a case there in Thailand and then they had like four cases in Thailand.

[144] It didn't spread as quickly.

[145] We were talking about it and we thought maybe because people weren't as in contact there or just their way of life.

[146] They don't shake hands.

[147] Naturally, they stay more of a distance.

[148] But it was spreading here very, very quickly.

[149] Breaking news tonight, the coronavirus forcing millions more Americans.

[150] Americans into virtual lockdown, over 75 million people in New York, California, Illinois, and Connecticut ordered to stay at home.

[151] The U .S. borders to Mexico and Canada set to close to non -essential travel, a spring break crackdown.

[152] Florida communities closing beaches.

[153] In Europe, the crisis growing inside the ICU in Italy.

[154] I'm sending him photos of the empty grocery stores.

[155] I'm telling him what's going on.

[156] He's worried he can't get home.

[157] So we're getting really, really nervous about.

[158] about what is this going to mean?

[159] Are you going to be stuck over there?

[160] Are they going to close the borders?

[161] Shit started to get crazy here.

[162] And we were like, oh, no. Yeah, that would be scary when you're traveling.

[163] So he was for sure there.

[164] Yes, he was for sure there.

[165] We did FaceTime.

[166] Did you see his brother on any of the FaceTime?

[167] No, I did not see his brother.

[168] And I asked him about that.

[169] And he said, my brother's just not a big picture guy.

[170] He had told me about his brother before.

[171] His brother was in the military.

[172] and his brother was like a shut -in, totally introverted.

[173] And so he was like, we're not the picture -taking kinds of guys.

[174] Like, my brother doesn't want me to sit there and, like, take a selfie with him.

[175] So I believe that.

[176] But he did FaceTime me from the beach and from his hotel and show me around and walk around.

[177] And he was like, here I am.

[178] Everything was shutting down.

[179] He was there for two weeks and so much happened in two weeks.

[180] And he was like, oh, my God, I hope I could get back.

[181] And he said he had one small plane.

[182] They had to de -board.

[183] and then they had to sterilize the plane and these guys came in with hazmat suits and stuff and then they could get on the plane and I was like, this just sounds bad.

[184] He ended up making it back to the U .S. and everything was fine, but by the skin of his teeth.

[185] That first lockdown happened, maybe like five days after he showed up.

[186] When he got back, it was lockdown time.

[187] And that also really altered my decision on staying because I was alone.

[188] And I didn't want to be alone for a pandemic.

[189] I wanted somebody to be here with me and keep me company and be that other person.

[190] So despite the witness protection being terrifying in the back of my head, it wasn't as scary as being alone for a pandemic.

[191] And I was like, you know what?

[192] If the feds have kept you alive for three years, I'm sure it'll be fine.

[193] And I was like, I'll sign up for this with you.

[194] Let's see how this goes.

[195] Because there was just a lot of factors at play.

[196] And they were like really intense, weird factors.

[197] I remember standing in my kitchen one night, I was spinning.

[198] I felt like the room was actually spinning.

[199] And my brain was thinking, there's no way this is real life because this doesn't make any sense.

[200] This is the shit you see in movies.

[201] You're in a global pandemic.

[202] You can't leave your fucking house.

[203] You haven't seen anybody you've loved in months.

[204] You're in witness protection now.

[205] This isn't real.

[206] None of this can possibly be real.

[207] That moment, I actually felt my brain detached from my body and have a weird out -of -body experience.

[208] And I remember thinking to myself, I think I'm about to have a mental breakdown.

[209] I think I'm right on the verge of things not going well for me mentally.

[210] But I feel like all worked in his favor.

[211] It all worked really great for him.

[212] So we're at Tiger King pandemic point.

[213] How were you guys spending the time together?

[214] We started to get into a pretty good COVID routine.

[215] I was working from home.

[216] And him being in the film industry meant that his work was non -existent at the time.

[217] because everything was shut down.

[218] And so he was with me every day.

[219] He was with me from six in the morning into the night, and we would be watching things like Tiger King and reality TV, and we would be drinking during the day because who wasn't doing that at that time?

[220] And we found all sorts of ways to keep ourselves busy and have fun.

[221] I know that the relationship didn't go the way I hoped it would, but at the time, our relationship was beautiful.

[222] We moved the furniture out of the way, and he taught me how to dance because he was a dancer.

[223] And we played games and we would take these morning coffee walks together and listen to podcasts and talk about our day.

[224] And we would get drunk at night and then listen to Broadway and perform in the street.

[225] We would just walk up and down the street and perform the songs to each other.

[226] We totally kept ourselves completely entertained the entire time.

[227] We had so much fun together.

[228] I was constantly smiling despite being in a very scary situation.

[229] scary pandemic and scary with the whole witness protection thing.

[230] When I decided that I was going to stick it all out with him and stay, very consciously decided that.

[231] I also really wanted to tell my sister because my sister is my best friend and I tell her everything.

[232] But I didn't think I was able to call her and tell her.

[233] My calls are being tracked.

[234] It's going to get him in trouble.

[235] It's going to get me in trouble.

[236] He had said it could get us arrested.

[237] It could get Ruth taken away from him.

[238] All sorts of things.

[239] I didn't want to do that.

[240] When I spoke to Josie, it was perfect because I was able to see her in person and tell her, and I knew that my information was safe.

[241] But once COVID happened, I couldn't see anybody in person.

[242] My friends were very safe about it, very cautious.

[243] Most of them fled the city and went home to be with their extended families and whatnot.

[244] It left me to have to trust him and trust what was going on.

[245] What our daily days looked like is that he a lot of times had to stay in different hotels because they moved him around.

[246] and the cars would drop him off in the morning and he would come from different directions of the house.

[247] Sometimes they would have different routes.

[248] He would have to walk up different ways to the house to make it not look obvious that a car was dropping him off every day and they would change all the time.

[249] We were spending a lot of time together.

[250] They would drive by to check on things and sometimes message him and text him.

[251] They would have a code word every once in a while that he would have to pick up the phone and say back.

[252] And then we would have to get permission if we wanted to go anywhere, which wasn't really anywhere to go anyway because of COVID.

[253] So we were mostly just taking walks around the neighborhood.

[254] And then the cars would follow us.

[255] If we were walking around the neighborhood, they would be parked and watching us or they would be following us.

[256] Holy shit.

[257] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[258] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[259] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[260] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[261] She's like, I can't.

[262] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading.

[263] fast.

[264] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[265] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[266] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[267] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[268] Yeah, well, yeah.

[269] No, it's hysteria.

[270] It's all in your head.

[271] It's not physical.

[272] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[273] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[274] Or is it something else entirely?

[275] Something's wrong here.

[276] Something's not right.

[277] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[278] A new limited series for from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[279] Follow Hysterical on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[280] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[281] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[282] I'm Sachi Cole.

[283] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[284] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twist and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away.

[285] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[286] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[287] To the infamous scams of real housewife stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[288] Follow scam influencers on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[289] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[290] It was a weird time because they started dating during COVID.

[291] And at that time, we were all in the lockdown.

[292] So I was going back and forth from home, talking to Kenzie through text and her keeping me updated.

[293] And then I would come back.

[294] and I was home, and I could tell that Kenzie was feeling like she wears her heart on her sleeve.

[295] You can tell when she's upset or something's going on.

[296] I was on my way back home, and she had texted me asking if she could come over for a wine night, and she came in just bawling.

[297] I was really scared for her, and she didn't want to tell me at first what was going on.

[298] Then after a couple glasses of wine, she finally let it out that Joe had, experienced this huge trauma.

[299] He had seen a mass shooting and he was in witness protection and that the FBI was following her and she was scared.

[300] My first reaction was fear for my friend.

[301] Seeing her that scared was really scary.

[302] Mostly worried for her and the only thing I'd known about witness protection was everything I'd seen on movies.

[303] I thought it was weird some of the stuff like that he kept his first name.

[304] I thought that was weird.

[305] That he stayed in the same city.

[306] I thought was weird.

[307] His daughter was in witness protection, but kind of not in witness protection.

[308] All of that to me was bizarre.

[309] And I remembered Kenzie being like, don't tell anyone.

[310] His phones are bugged.

[311] My phone is bugged.

[312] People are watching.

[313] Summer of 2020, the couple began hanging out with Kenzie's friends at outdoor gatherings.

[314] We had like a beer pong game going.

[315] on.

[316] So I think by the time I met him, he was already playing a game with everyone, but he was super nice, very pleasant, nothing creepy.

[317] And this, again, might be more hindsight, but definitely looking back, there was a little bit of bragging, talking about his career, what he was working on.

[318] I found it acceptable because this is our first time meeting and we're asking you questions and it's about you.

[319] So yeah, you're talking about yourself.

[320] sometimes I felt like he was kind of defensive or trying to put on airs and appeal to your friends.

[321] But, you know, you kind of take that out of the grain salt.

[322] Like, it's great.

[323] You want to impress me. That means a lot to me trying to make a good impression on her and everybody.

[324] I remember at one point of time, I asked her, who are his friends?

[325] I'd love to meet them, build some, like, color around him because I felt like I knew him on a surface level, but I didn't get that in -depth, like, kind of view.

[326] He didn't really talk about his, work in great detail.

[327] The first time I met him, he was charming.

[328] He was nice, but definitely off.

[329] Like, I think from the whole time, I've always kind of just, like, had an unsure feeling about him.

[330] Did you feel like he was disingenuous?

[331] Yes.

[332] And when I met him, Kenzie had told me about him being in witness protection.

[333] So I think meeting him in person the first time, I was unsure about him.

[334] How many times would you say that you were around one another?

[335] in person, you and Joe.

[336] Probably a good handful.

[337] He had come over to my place a few times for pool parties or game nights because it was the summer.

[338] Probably like 10 times.

[339] He came to my birthday in, I think we had the party in June.

[340] And that was the first time he ever acted really like weird.

[341] We had gone to a brewery.

[342] And this brewery is really cool.

[343] It has a bunch of picnic tables outside.

[344] You can grab a beer and sit outside.

[345] chat and we were all sitting at this big picnic table and you looked over at joe and he was really shifty like his eyes were kind of looking from side to side and he looked like he was about to cry like he was scared later he had pulled me aside and said that he thought he had seen this car pull up and he was scared that it was someone looking for him and he was crying to me while he was telling me this and then he opened up about the trauma he had gone through and he was crying and he was like, you know, just imagine if you're sitting at this coffee shop and everyone around you is dead and you're covered in their blood and you don't know, you know, why you weren't killed and all of the trauma he's experienced and how it was so scary for him to be out at the brewery that night.

[346] The United States Federal Witness Protection Program, also known as the Witness Security Program or WITSEC, is a witness protection program administered by the United States Department of Department of Justice and the United States Marshal Service.

[347] According to the U .S. Marshal Service, they provide security, health, and safety of government witnesses and their immediate dependence, whose lives are in danger as a result of their testimony against drug traffickers, terrorists, organized crime members, and other major criminals.

[348] The Witness Security Program was authorized by the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 and amended by the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984.

[349] The Witness Security Program has successfully protected approximately 19 ,000 participants, including victim witnesses and cooperating defendants and their dependent family members, from intimidation and retribution since the program began in 1971.

[350] The successful operation of this program is widely recognized as providing a unique and valuable tool in the government's battle against major criminal conspirators and organized crime.

[351] Witnesses and their families typically get new identities with authentic documentation.

[352] Housing, subassistance for basic living expenses and medical care are provided to the witnesses.

[353] Job training and employment assistance may also be provided.

[354] The U .S. Marshals provide 24 -hour protection to all witnesses while they are in a high -threat environment, including pretrial conferences, trial testimonials, and other court appearances.

[355] Kenzie really wanted to share with her sister and brother -in -law about the witness protection program.

[356] But since she needed to do so in person, the couple decided to fly to her house to deliver the news.

[357] Now I'm watching my family and friends be involved in all of it, and I'm feeling much more comfortable.

[358] We stayed up there a week, and he was like, it's really important to me. He comes to me with this stuff, by the way.

[359] He goes, it's really important to me that I have a night where I sit down, with your family, especially your sister, and I talk to her and I tell them what's going on with me, what you've endured being with me because I know it's been hard on you and you deserve credit and yada yada.

[360] I want to tell them everything, what I witnessed and what's going on, especially as your family.

[361] I think they need to be involved.

[362] It's good for you.

[363] It's good for us.

[364] And I was like, okay.

[365] And so he did that and he sat down with them.

[366] And that's the story my sister will tell you.

[367] I thought it was insane.

[368] It made me really parent.

[369] because she was saying they watch anybody who's watching him in any way.

[370] Like if you're Googling him, they know that you're Googling him, which as her older sister, I'm Googling the hell out of this guy because I want to know what he's about, you know?

[371] It immediately put me into this place of being totally paranoid about him being under this witness protection thing and these federal agents hacking into my computer to see if I'm Googling this guy.

[372] It scared the crap out of me at first.

[373] But the more she told me about the story, the more it seemed, even though it was like outrageous, the more it seemed a little bit more believable as the whole thing unfolded.

[374] It was like not anything that I've ever experienced or come close to before, but, you know, I obviously don't know anything about witness protection.

[375] I thought it was nuts, but I don't know.

[376] It's sort of explained a lot of things, like why he didn't have any presence whatsoever on social media.

[377] I couldn't find a photo of him anywhere.

[378] I started researching witness protection.

[379] And from what I understood, if someone's in witness protection, it's usually because they've been involved in some sort of crime.

[380] We sat down with them, cried at the table, told them what we've been going through, explained that I've been such an amazing support system for him.

[381] Now everyone's in on it.

[382] And it just is like, okay, so this is just life now.

[383] This isn't weird.

[384] Why would it be weird?

[385] We all know who's going to do.

[386] just tell everybody.

[387] Looking back, I think he got a high off of that attention.

[388] I think it gave him that same kind of high of like, this is my moment.

[389] I'm in the spotlight right now and I'm sort of getting all this attention for this.

[390] So weird.

[391] About five months into our relationship, he didn't respond to me one night after I had texted him, which was not like him.

[392] He was always so great at communicating.

[393] And it was weird.

[394] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[395] She had been under the influence and she left in January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[396] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[397] What happens next?

[398] Depends on who you ask.

[399] Was it a crime of passion?

[400] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[401] This was clearly an intentional act.

[402] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[403] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[404] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[405] Everyone had an opinion.

[406] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[407] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[408] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sincere, National case in Karen.

[409] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[410] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[411] The next day I texted him and I said, Hey, are you okay?

[412] That wasn't like you.

[413] And he was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

[414] I fell asleep.

[415] I was on a call with all my siblings.

[416] There's something I haven't told you.

[417] And I was like, okay, is everything okay?

[418] And he was like, my mom actually has cancer.

[419] She has cervical cancer.

[420] And she's been battling it for about two years now.

[421] and it's getting really bad.

[422] So all of us did a Zoom call together.

[423] And it's tough because some of them are in England and some of them are here.

[424] So we all got together and did a Zoom call and decided that it would be best for her to finish treatment here in the U .S. And she could probably get some better doctors here in the city and that I was going to, I isn't him, fly her private here and get her set up so that she's taken care of.

[425] And I was like, oh my God, But I'm so sorry you're dealing with that.

[426] And he was like, I didn't want to say anything to you.

[427] We've already got so much going on that it was like the last thing I wanted to bring up.

[428] And I've been hopeful that it was going to get better.

[429] So I didn't want to mention it.

[430] And I was like, yeah, I'm so sorry.

[431] Within about a couple weeks, he flew her in.

[432] He went and picked her up from the airport.

[433] And he was like, she's so frail.

[434] She's so skinny.

[435] This is heartbreaking.

[436] This makes me want to throw up.

[437] I haven't seen her in maybe like a year or now.

[438] And it's just amazing how much weight she's lost from the chemo.

[439] it's killing me. I was like, I'm so sorry.

[440] They brought her right to the hospital.

[441] They set her up.

[442] He got her a nice, sweet thing.

[443] And it was tough because it's COVID.

[444] So that meant no real visitors.

[445] They were really strict about the siblings coming in.

[446] And obviously, if you weren't family, you couldn't see that person.

[447] That kind of sucked for me because I wanted a meet her.

[448] And I couldn't because of COVID.

[449] And that was pretty upsetting.

[450] We went through this grueling couple months.

[451] she was declining when she came here and the first thing they did was a surgery when she was here and they were pretty hopeful that it was going to help.

[452] He gave me the exact details about it.

[453] I cannot remember anymore.

[454] But it didn't go as well as they planned and they couldn't get all the cancer out and she just got sicker and sicker.

[455] Her being sick was devastating to him.

[456] He would come over and just cry.

[457] Just cry.

[458] He would get really emotional telling memories about her when they would go golfing and she had these pink golf clubs and how she is who got him into dancing.

[459] She was a dance instructor and he remembered watching her dance for the first time and loving it and asking if he could do that too.

[460] She was so proud of him that her son was asking to dance.

[461] He really loved his mom a lot.

[462] He would sit by her bedside and watch TV with her.

[463] And as things started to progress, he was explaining how she was uneventivellable.

[464] and he would be sitting in the room and all he could hear would be the ventilator and her the beeps from the machines and how it was really depressing him and all of it was just a lot that was really awful so that was always also going on in the background he had to go stay with her and check on her and that was pretty tough through all of this he wasn't really seeing ruth because there was way too much going on his mom covid us it was just way too much and also with the pandemic now being in play, people were being more protective about their families and their kids and stuff.

[465] And so Ruth's mom was like, you're out and about, you're in and out of a hospital.

[466] I'm not going to let Ruth be around you.

[467] This is just not worth risking any of us getting sick.

[468] Had you met his daughter or spoken with her?

[469] At this point, I had still not met his daughter or spoken to her.

[470] He was very protective of her.

[471] One, because of witness protection.

[472] Two, because we were still fairly early on in our relationship.

[473] I've been around kids a lot.

[474] and have a lot of friends who have kids.

[475] And I understood being reserved in introducing your kid to somebody new.

[476] We were six months in, and I could see that still being on the sooner side.

[477] If we were starting to talk about things like marriage and stuff, which we were not talking about those things, then, yes, I should meet her by now.

[478] But it was still pretty early on.

[479] So I wasn't too stressed about it.

[480] And with everything going on to, my mind was definitely completely distracted.

[481] When I first started talking to him, his assistant told me, this man never dates.

[482] I don't know what it is that you did that made him want to turn this into a date instead of an interview because he never, ever dates.

[483] He just works and he's with his daughter.

[484] You must have put some kind of spell on him because this is not like him at all.

[485] I remember thinking, I wonder why.

[486] He's got a lot going for him.

[487] He's got a good job.

[488] He's handsome.

[489] He's easy to be around.

[490] He's funny.

[491] Why does this man not date?

[492] And later I found out it was because of witness protection.

[493] He was like, I can't date.

[494] I can't date in this program.

[495] Are you kidding me?

[496] This is terrible putting somebody through this.

[497] This is stressful.

[498] It's not fair.

[499] I myself have been dealing with it mentally.

[500] I've been focusing on my job and my daughter.

[501] Ruth had never met anyone.

[502] There had never been a girlfriend.

[503] There had never been a potential stepmother figure.

[504] So that was another reason he was really protective of her because he had never done this before.

[505] He had only known life being a single dad for the last four.

[506] years.

[507] He didn't know what it was like to introduce somebody else.

[508] And I made him really nervous.

[509] I get that.

[510] It's a lot.

[511] I was always very patient about it.

[512] It's not my place to say how people should parent.

[513] After a few months of Joe's mom receiving medical treatment in the United States, he shared with Kenzie that her health had worsened.

[514] As she was deteriorating, they were given their six weeks to live.

[515] And he was like, Mom's last wish was to see the ocean before she passes away.

[516] He's like, I don't know how I'm going to pull this off with COVID because people can't fly right now, but we're going to see if we can get her down to Mexico with all the siblings and just somewhere so that we can give her that last wish.

[517] She really wanted to, she had never seen Mexico.

[518] She wanted to go down there.

[519] He had a lot of money and he had access to a private plane and he was like, I'm going to use the perks and money I have and see if I can swing this despite it being COVID.

[520] He got all the siblings together and they went down there and he sent pictures.

[521] Now, he never sent pictures with the siblings in them again because of all of his boundaries that he had with witness protection and whatnot.

[522] But he was like, yeah, we're down here for our final days.

[523] It was really emotional.

[524] He called me and told me about sitting on the beach with her and some of his last conversation, some of his siblings' last conversations.

[525] It was all definitely very emotional for him.

[526] There was only so much I could do, but I was emotionally and mentally supportive and always there when he needed to talk and call.

[527] and chat and we chatted all the time.

[528] They were in Mexico for maybe four or five days.

[529] It wasn't super long and came back.

[530] And about a week after that, she ended up on the ventilator and then she was on the ventilator for maybe a week and a half.

[531] Everyone kind of knew.

[532] And it's sort of like, you know, you get your last wind and you hear about that when people are passing away.

[533] They get their last wind.

[534] Then she passed away and he was devastated.

[535] I remember him and I I were kind of arguing about something the night she passed away, and I don't remember what it was.

[536] But we were kind of arguing about something.

[537] And then all hell broke loose.

[538] And he was like, I got to go to the hospital.

[539] She ended up passing away that night.

[540] They decided to cremate her and they were going to put most of her ashes in England, but they were also spreading them in a couple places in the U .S. So he had a little bit of traveling to do.

[541] He was kind of doing a lot of traveling for it being COVID, but he had the resources to be able to do that.

[542] And he was able to get back into England because he was a citizen.

[543] So he went, he was like, I'm going to bring Ruth because it's her grandmother and she should be there.

[544] And I baked brownies for their flight and sent a little video message to Ruth for her to see because she was starting to learn that I existed.

[545] He would tell me, I told Ruth this story.

[546] I told Ruth about you.

[547] I'm slowly easing the idea of you into Ruth's life.

[548] I knew her favorite movies and I knew what she liked.

[549] He would tell me about conversations they had back and forth about like little jokes and animals and foods and all sorts of things.

[550] Throughout their relationship, Kenzie did her best to research the witness protection program, but by design, there's not a lot of information available to the public.

[551] It's not researchable, which is the point.

[552] So there was only so much I could look up.

[553] I had to trust him and take it from what he was saying.

[554] Often he told me not to worry.

[555] Don't be afraid.

[556] Don't stress out.

[557] He was always trying to make me feel good about it, but I would have dreams of men taking me in the middle of the night, of them finding me, of whoever's after him, finding out he has a girlfriend and coming and stealing me or the government showing up or me doing something wrong.

[558] I actually started to use CBD gummies because I was super anxious.

[559] The process itself became very routine, and I did get very used to it.

[560] There was just like some rules intact that were, if you were going to go somewhere, ask permission 15 minutes before, so we can have two cars there and keep an eye on you guys.

[561] Rarely did we ever get the no. We could always go somewhere, but he always had to ask first.

[562] There was a moment one time when I remember watching, he was coming over and they drove him everywhere.

[563] A lot of times they would park around the corner and drop him off, and then he would walk up.

[564] They wouldn't park in front of my place and they wouldn't pull into the driveway.

[565] So I would watch him walking up the street.

[566] And I remember him walking up one time, He had no idea that I was looking out the window.

[567] I just happened to be looking out the window at this point.

[568] And I saw him signaling left, like this way, like that, like signaling a direction.

[569] And he walked in the house and I was like, what was that?

[570] And he was like, oh, they have to tell me which way to leave when I leave out of here.

[571] So I'm going to leave out that way.

[572] And I was like, oh, okay.

[573] Weird little things would happen all the time where we'd be sitting on the couch and his phone would ring and he'd pick up the phone and be like, okay, yeah.

[574] The word today is whatever.

[575] and he would give the code word for the day or something like that.

[576] And then eventually I was like, am I going to get vetted in?

[577] And he was like, well, they've been vetting you in since the beginning.

[578] They've done background checks on you and everybody in your life to make sure everything's fine.

[579] And I was like, well, but like, are they going to talk to me or anything?

[580] Shouldn't I be talking to someone?

[581] I don't know, there'd be some kind of meeting.

[582] And he's like, not really.

[583] You're not fully involved, like that no one's after you.

[584] And I was like, I feel kind of involved.

[585] He would have like a weekly debriefing with them.

[586] He's like, I can talk to them in the next debrief and see if we can have an agent reach out to you so that you feel better.

[587] And I was like, I would really like that.

[588] That's next time on Something Was Wrong.

[589] Thank you, as always, for listening.

[590] Until next week, stay safe, friends.

[591] Something Was Wrong is an Audio Chuck production, created and hosted by Tiffany Reese.

[592] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags from their album, Wonder Under.

[593] So what do you think you know me, you don't know me at all?

[594] So what do you think, Chuck?

[595] Do you approve?

[596] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[597] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[598] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey.

[599] at Wondery .com slash survey.