B.J. Novak

[0] Welcome, welcome to arm chair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Lily Padman.

[3] Good afternoon, sir.

[4] Good afternoon to you.

[5] We have an incredibly talented human being today.

[6] B .J. Novak.

[7] Of course, BJ is an actor, a writer, a comedian, a director, and a New York Times best -selling author.

[8] Well, first and foremost, he was on punt, which is wild.

[9] Followed in your footsteps.

[10] Well, he created his own path.

[11] Listen, he's in the office.

[12] He was also a writer and producer on that show.

[13] He directed episodes, The Mindy Project, Inglorious Bastards, Saving Mr. Banks, the founder, and he has a new show called The Premise on FX on Hulu.

[14] And the premise is an anthology series.

[15] It's very cool because each episode is its own encapsulated story.

[16] Yeah.

[17] Also, it's worth saying that I start out as a shithead in this episode, but bear with us, I guess.

[18] That would be my...

[19] It's a pretty interesting episode.

[20] It is, it is.

[21] So it's an interesting episode, and I learned a lot.

[22] Please enjoy BJ Novak.

[23] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[24] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[25] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[26] Does it feel too close?

[27] Is that what it is?

[28] I just don't know how I sound.

[29] I sound like Mikey.

[30] Yeah, that's the dream.

[31] No, you sound great.

[32] Well, listen, I sound micy.

[33] No, no, no, listen.

[34] Yeah.

[35] I have a theory on this.

[36] Did you give me a worse mic?

[37] No, no, no. No, in fact, you probably have the nicest.

[38] It has the lowest miles on it, that mic.

[39] Yeah.

[40] But don't you think you sound smarter because this is what I think happened.

[41] Oh, I love when I have a mic on me. Oh, my God.

[42] I love it.

[43] You sound, even as I close my eyes and you start talking, you sound like a professor already.

[44] Wow.

[45] You do have a professorial voice.

[46] And look, I think.

[47] I look very seriously.

[48] Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[49] Yeah.

[50] I think this is going to be a fun interview, and I'm going to start with love and benevolence and say, I think I don't like you.

[51] And that's your love and benevolence.

[52] That's all my God.

[53] As I'm already interacting with you in the driveway and then here, I think I like you.

[54] But I think I thought I didn't like you, and I can't wait to get into it.

[55] I get that from a distance sometimes, yeah.

[56] Well, no, I thought.

[57] Wait, can I say something just to not have that be the worst thing anyone's ever said?

[58] It's an amazing way to make a guest comfortable.

[59] I will say that.

[60] He's never said that to a guest before.

[61] It does happen before a lot.

[62] He's like, I don't think I like this person.

[63] Why do you have someone on?

[64] Because I'm wrong all the time.

[65] I end up liking any human being I talk to sincerely.

[66] That's how it goes, yeah.

[67] Yeah, that's like kind of the magic of humans.

[68] End of this show, yeah.

[69] But I don't think I didn't dislike you.

[70] I had it in my head that you didn't like me. I was obsessed with you competitively.

[71] Oh, this is already so fantastic.

[72] That's why I wanted to start that.

[73] You might have known that or sensed that or I might have, I tried to tell you that once at the improv like 10 years ago and you had a distracted look.

[74] You were thinking about something else.

[75] I was about to do stand -up, which I never had done.

[76] Oh my God.

[77] So I was like, hey, Dax, it's kind of a funny story.

[78] You're like, uh -huh, uh -huh, uh -huh.

[79] I've just panicked inside.

[80] Yeah.

[81] You caught me on the like, I think for two years I did stand -up because I had moved here to do stand -up, but I was just too afraid and I did sketch instead because it's safer.

[82] And then I just kept thinking you still have to do it.

[83] So then I did it as a dare to myself.

[84] So when you saw me, and by the way, you can probably notice completely by myself, I have no friends in that world.

[85] So I'm just there panicking when we talk to each other.

[86] But you're so tall that you kind of loomed large.

[87] So you were kind of looking around it.

[88] You looked very heroic.

[89] Oh, my God.

[90] So to me, and I'm 5 '9, I'm like looking up to you.

[91] And you always were like in my head, my big brother that I could never catch up to because of punked.

[92] Okay.

[93] Right.

[94] And so I'm like, I'm talking to Dax.

[95] Like, I'm going to be friends with them.

[96] And you know, you were looking at the stage and stuff.

[97] But you looked very godlike.

[98] Like to me, you're blonde and six or you don't look like anyone else at the improv, which is all these misshaping small guys.

[99] You're like a movie started me. You're like, oh, my God, he has no idea.

[100] See, this is this is fucking perfect.

[101] So all we really just learned, I think, is that you and I are very similar.

[102] So most of the people that we talk to, I say like, well, I met you this one time and they're like, yeah, my dad had just got diagnosed.

[103] Like it had nothing to do with you.

[104] But I create these enormous stories why people don't like me. I start with you probably don't like me. To anybody.

[105] Yeah, just in general.

[106] Yeah, I have that too.

[107] but I'm often right as I found out today.

[108] Well, no, no, but here's what's funny is.

[109] I actually never...

[110] You're a very likable person.

[111] I never disliked you.

[112] I just, I had this suspicion you didn't like me. So I'm like, I don't think that guy likes me because we were on, we were both on punked.

[113] Well, I was so jealous.

[114] So you were on punked and became hugely known for that.

[115] And then I was cast on season two of punked.

[116] I was the guy who followed you up.

[117] Yes, yes.

[118] And I thought, here we go.

[119] I'm going to be as big as X. And I was definitely, I had a moment where everyone, knew me from punked that i ran into yeah but they were when i told them they were like did you do the just in timber like i was like by the way they asked me that so it's like they know the timbrelake thing but they don't necessarily know i did it were you're still an icon from that oh my god and i like you know i was on it but so you know i was like damn it i thought that was a guarantee i left it and then i never watched it for all kinds of reasons you didn't watch your season or the next season i didn't watch the next season of course not of course i watched my season because it was the first time I was on TV and I was so excited.

[120] Was that the first time you were on TV?

[121] Oh, yeah.

[122] It's so thrilling.

[123] It was unbelievable.

[124] And also it's so high stakes because it's like, okay, your first time ever on TV, here's the situation.

[125] You're with an enormous star.

[126] They don't know you're acting.

[127] Correct.

[128] You have one take.

[129] And if they realize it's not real, you lose everything.

[130] What a waste, right?

[131] You lose your job.

[132] It's so high stakes.

[133] It is.

[134] Does it ever happen that someone was like, you're punking me by then?

[135] or yeah it happened on my season it did yeah it happened one time did it happened on your season yeah but they weren't sure right they'd say i'm being punked right i'm being punked right i'm being punked and you'd say no and they'd just be like fuck yeah yeah yeah i could have sworn but i guess i got to take this is real i wanted to be peers with all those people so i was definitely thinking like well i have to take this opportunity because there's no i'm not getting any opportunities other than the show punked and it seems like it's pretty curtailed to my skill set.

[136] But I'm going to meet all these people I like want to be friendly with and peers with and they're all going to hate my guts.

[137] Like I'm going to meet most of the people in Hollywood on this show and they're all going to hate.

[138] Is that what happened though?

[139] That isn't what happened.

[140] Yeah.

[141] But that's what I was afraid of.

[142] Right.

[143] Yeah.

[144] Just like oh great, well maybe I'll get a chance to be in things but then no one will be in anything with me because I've already angered everyone.

[145] Yeah.

[146] It's hard to shake a first impression.

[147] Yes.

[148] Okay.

[149] Now let's talk about physical because I want to talk about what you think you bring to the scenario that you have no control over so let me just be very specific for my point of view I find especially in Hollywood I trigger this thing in some people that I was a jock in high school and shove people yeah okay I've had that experience where I'm on a set and I can't figure out why someone doesn't like me right and then I feel like I've got to go like you know I was a skateboarder and I was artsy and I was a punk rock like I wasn't the dude shoving people.

[150] So I feel like that's my little bit of baggage.

[151] Poor me as a tall white man. Don't you feel bad for me at 6 .3?

[152] To me, a skateboarder is cool.

[153] I mean, Dax is such a cool name, in my opinion.

[154] Now.

[155] Yeah, so I saw you as the cool kid.

[156] But no, I have absolutely my own version of that.

[157] I have this very serious face.

[158] And people know I went to Harvard, which to me, I was like, fuck yeah.

[159] Like, I'm going to be the guy who went to Harvard and, like, did cool shit with it.

[160] And instead, everyone's just like, okay, Mr. fucking Harvard.

[161] You know, and I was like, wait, no, I'm like you.

[162] Like, I was the guy who's going to do cool stuff.

[163] Yes.

[164] And no, you just become in a category and you trigger in people, whatever issues they have with a certain type of person.

[165] All of a sudden, you're that type.

[166] Yes.

[167] You know, even though that was the type that I didn't like, now I'm that to these people.

[168] Yeah.

[169] Yeah.

[170] I may have done that to you a little bit.

[171] Like, I think I may be assessed that you were cerebral.

[172] Right.

[173] And you're like, oh, you're going to think I'm the dumb kid in class.

[174] Yes.

[175] People think that I'm smart and think they're not smart.

[176] And that you're judging.

[177] them for not being smart.

[178] Yes.

[179] Yes.

[180] And that's the like my big, like I tear up, I must have some trauma and maybe that's why I went to it, but when I talk about people who think they're not smart, like I get teary -eyed.

[181] Like, I must have been made to think I wasn't smart as a kid and was like, I'll show them or something.

[182] Yeah.

[183] Because it's my biggest sort of trigger.

[184] Is it the shadow of your super intelligent and successful father?

[185] No, I don't think so.

[186] I guess I would just imagine, he's been very successful as a writer.

[187] He's a ghostwriter, yeah.

[188] Which is, I learned something today, which is I didn't know men sometimes ghost write for women.

[189] Well, sure.

[190] Like your dad didn't Nancy Reagan's biography.

[191] Autobiography.

[192] Well, I think it's like writing a female character.

[193] You learn someone's voice.

[194] Uh -huh.

[195] I think when I write characters, I'm doing the same type of thing.

[196] It's like, okay, Jim and Pam, you know, Pam would say this and Michael would say, you're getting in their head.

[197] You're imagining if you were them.

[198] Yeah.

[199] And I think that's what a ghostwriter does, but it's for whatever person is writing the memoir.

[200] So it's Magic John.

[201] one day and Nancy Reagan the next.

[202] He's dead in Magic Jones.

[203] Oh, wow.

[204] So he does mostly autobiote, like memoirs, autobiographies?

[205] Yeah.

[206] He was also one of the authors of like the history of Jewish jokes or something like that, right?

[207] Yeah, the big book of Jewish humor.

[208] The big book of Jewish humor.

[209] Which I grew up with.

[210] So that means that he was funny as well, or at least liked.

[211] He loves comedy.

[212] He loves comedy.

[213] Wow.

[214] So for him having you be an insanely prolific comedy writer, that must be so cool for him.

[215] You would think.

[216] No, he's very proud.

[217] Yeah.

[218] Yeah, he's proud, but he's Canadian, so he's very reserved about all of that.

[219] Yeah, on the spectrum, they're just to the left of Sweden as far as, like, allergic to compliments and fanfare.

[220] Yes, it's very, very buttoned up in the grand scheme of things.

[221] Yes.

[222] In terms of Jewish comedy lovers, it's a very...

[223] Lauren Michaels is Canadian, too, and I think also, like, famously, like, his approval is doled out a little bit at a time.

[224] Yes.

[225] That sort of thing.

[226] Okay, so given this, what you just said, that people think you're smart and that triggers maybe some...

[227] And that I think they're not smart.

[228] That's what kills me, is that I do think I'm smart, but I think of myself, I always have as like the kid who is playing pranks and getting in trouble in smart ways and being clever and having fun with that kind of thing.

[229] Not the AP bio.

[230] Right, yeah.

[231] But then people, I think, put me in that category and they have issues with that type of person.

[232] Of course.

[233] Which is the type of person I had issues with.

[234] Yes.

[235] So you project.

[236] Yes, yes.

[237] But then there's a part of me that wants to lean into it as an actor's like, okay, well, I'll play the bad guy.

[238] I'll play that person.

[239] I'll be iconic.

[240] Well, my mother, too, lamented at one point.

[241] She said, like, are you ever going to play anyone that's smart?

[242] Because I kind of made a niche for myself playing idiots.

[243] Well, idiocracy is literally.

[244] Yeah, and like, I was in this movie, Baby Mama.

[245] He was kind of a dipshit.

[246] And I've just played a lot of dipshits.

[247] And then I said to my mom, you know, they have to be represented in the movies and film.

[248] Like, I'm happy to have a lame.

[249] I think everybody is smart.

[250] That is my weird, passionate belief.

[251] and maybe it goes into this thing I was talking about.

[252] But I think, like, if I go to Las Vegas and sit down at a poker table, right, I will get my ass handed to me by people who are doing all of this mental math and psychological math, and I'm sure they don't think of themselves as smart, quote unquote, in that way.

[253] They just know how to do this.

[254] That is so intelligent.

[255] I went to an oil field for this film I was doing, and I just asked, oh, what's your job?

[256] Yeah.

[257] This oil worker understands how the entire ecosystem works.

[258] Uh -huh.

[259] And if he makes one mistake, the whole state explodes.

[260] This is an unbelievable intelligence, but this is thought of as sort of, and he probably thinks of himself.

[261] I'm just a blue -collar guy in an oil field, but technically, you know, here's how the whole system works.

[262] And I could never do that.

[263] And so intelligence is taught to us, and I have been a very unfair beneficiary of intelligence is thought to be using big words well, which I could do, and writing them well in class, and looking serious as you see.

[264] them.

[265] Yeah.

[266] And so, yeah, so I get to be considered intelligent to the level that people like you resent it.

[267] Yeah, yeah.

[268] And meanwhile, all these people that are so smart in ways that are just not fairly measured.

[269] Yeah.

[270] Certain things are measured and certain things are not.

[271] Yeah.

[272] And I think everybody is smart.

[273] Well, almost everybody.

[274] But I really do.

[275] Almost everybody is very smart.

[276] I'm with you.

[277] I'm with you because I am super into motorsports.

[278] So I follow a lot of people who that are like welders and fabricators and these kinds of things.

[279] Yeah, for a human being to have the ability to like stare at a workbench for an hour and then start picking up metal and cutting it in a way and then welding it in a way and then making it functional.

[280] Yeah.

[281] How many people can do that?

[282] No, it's insane.

[283] Yeah, and it's just not prized whatsoever.

[284] Right.

[285] And emotional intelligence.

[286] I feel like no one's incorporating that into the spectrum of intelligence.

[287] Like you can be crazy book smart, but I have no idea how to operate in the world and connect with people and then what?

[288] Like, that doesn't serve you at all.

[289] Absolutely, yeah.

[290] And that's not even like a separate category of intelligence.

[291] Understanding a human being, why is that any different from understanding mathematics?

[292] Exactly.

[293] It's just something to understand that is incredibly complex that requires a lot of analysis, et cetera.

[294] Yeah.

[295] And then, of course, along the way we meet tons of actors that have varying levels of education.

[296] And they can be like, fucking brilliant.

[297] I can't act like them.

[298] That's a thing.

[299] Right.

[300] That's like some version of intelligence.

[301] Yeah.

[302] Yeah, it's very narrow what we've decided to prize.

[303] It's insane.

[304] And also, I'll say another thing, like writing itself, and I think this will be broken down over the next generation.

[305] But people think of writing.

[306] It's this traumatic thing where you're in third grade.

[307] And writing is literally doing penmanship with correctly remembered letters and paragraphs.

[308] And some kids are told you're a good writer.

[309] And I'm going to tear again.

[310] Some kids are told you're not a good writer.

[311] Right.

[312] Because you misspelled wonderful.

[313] you put two L's and forever you think I'm not a good writer.

[314] Then you meet these people out here who are unbelievable storytellers and that like Tarrantino, it is nothing to do with your handwriting.

[315] It's about can you tell a story?

[316] Can you imagine it?

[317] Can you add depth?

[318] And writing is really composing.

[319] It's not with a panic.

[320] But like even that is just so, so misunderstood.

[321] That's a really great point because I got to say the thing that I transitioned from dyslexic, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing.

[322] Left -handed, the worst penmanship you've ever seen, can't spell a damn thing.

[323] The word processor came around.

[324] I don't know that I would have ever become a writer had that not happen, because now all of a sudden my shit looked as smart as everyone else's, because it's just print.

[325] And then I have the assistance of spelling, correct?

[326] Yeah, spell check.

[327] And that just changed my whole life.

[328] Absolutely.

[329] And think of, if you were to leave a voice note on your phone or something, and it would just naturally transcribed, you versus someone who got a better grade and fourth grade, Like, it would look the same.

[330] Right.

[331] And it should be.

[332] So, I mean, writing when you think about it is a system of symbols invented to get information in an intermediate phase from one person to the other.

[333] Right.

[334] We don't necessarily need it anymore.

[335] So now it's just about how good were you at that random shortcut of the alphabet.

[336] Yeah.

[337] And now, like, in 50 or 100 years, when you can just communicate only with video and you don't necessarily need to rely on this alphabet, it might actually free people a lot.

[338] Like, I love letters and stuff, but, like, it is just a system of delivery of information.

[339] And if you're not good at that system, it has nothing to do with whether you're good at thinking and talking and communicating.

[340] Right.

[341] Yes.

[342] But have you had this thought?

[343] Because I have in the past, less than so now, because it's not happening.

[344] But there was a part of me that was like, I don't want this profession opened up to people who are not willing to suffer.

[345] and I mean writing specifically like I take pride in how much suffering is involved in loneliness and so I thought well if everyone can just talk out a script is everyone going to do it and now there's no accomplishment that was my fear and then that didn't but were you just justifying your own pain maybe well how about this I just think a lot of people don't have the Constitution to sit down and do it and I was grateful I did and now I thought oh this little advantage I had is probably going to go away with voice dictation yeah but I suffer so much for it and don't want to.

[346] I hope it doesn't need to happen.

[347] Yeah.

[348] I got to work on this.

[349] Yes.

[350] Oh, so this would be a question I love asking, which is what do you write from?

[351] Like, what is the source of fuel you use to write?

[352] Because it's not pleasant.

[353] I'm assuming it's not pleasant for you either.

[354] Yeah.

[355] Someone once said, writers are people for whom writing is harder than it is for other people.

[356] Uh -huh.

[357] If you suffer and struggle, that's the difference.

[358] We're launched now.

[359] This could go into 90 different direction.

[360] But give me another, do you have other favorite writing quotes?

[361] Yes, Philip Roth said, ditch digging is hard work.

[362] Writing is a nightmare.

[363] Such a balzy thing to say of the writer.

[364] You know the Lawrence Kazden one.

[365] Writers are people who have agreed to do homework the rest of their life?

[366] No, that's good.

[367] Because that's what I felt like when I was writing a lot like, oh, it just doesn't end.

[368] You're on vacation but you're like, oh yeah, fuck I got it.

[369] Always.

[370] Everything you think, yeah, it's just this constant game with yourself.

[371] My very favorite is sort of what I was saying before, which is Christopher Hitchens, who said, to his students.

[372] If you can talk, you can write.

[373] And everyone in the class relaxed.

[374] And then he said, but how many of you can really talk?

[375] Which is everything.

[376] It's exactly it.

[377] Oh, that's good.

[378] And then obviously, the very famous one, I don't know where it came from, but it's, I hate writing, but I love having written.

[379] Yeah.

[380] Yeah.

[381] That's true about so much.

[382] It is.

[383] But I love writing at the beginning that first burst when an idea makes you smile and you think, am I crazy or is this a great idea?

[384] And you're writing it and writing.

[385] I love that.

[386] And then when you send it to someone, they're like, this is good, but I would fix this.

[387] Then it becomes awful.

[388] I never pitch anything.

[389] I have an idea and I write it.

[390] And then I send it out.

[391] And whoever gets it and wants to make it makes it.

[392] I think that's the move.

[393] It's lonely and scary.

[394] But at least if someone wants to do it, you know they want to do it for the right reasons.

[395] I think it would just be a delayed torture to tell someone an idea.

[396] They say yes.

[397] Then you show them what you do.

[398] and they're like, oh, I kind of wanted it different.

[399] Now it's really a problem.

[400] That's when I stopped because invariably that is 100 % what happens is every single time, three months later when you turn in a draft, they're trying to remember this meeting you had three months ago where you said X, Y, and Z, but they put it in a category.

[401] I had this experience once I sold the show to Showtime, and it's just Darrell Hall idea I had.

[402] I was going to play a fictitious version of Darrell Hall in the 80s.

[403] And so in my mind, like, tonally it was going to be like kind of like Californication, but newer.

[404] And so when I got back in I turned it in David Evans who I fucking adore I'm sure you like him too He's the greatest guy in Hollywood He goes man I guess I thought You were doing a Will Ferrell version of this show And I'm like oh yeah I get that I'm not Now where are we at You know And then you're just like oh that can happen Yeah and now you've built a car Yes it's already yes I'm driving around the parking lot Isn't this thing great look at it gets 30 miles To again I thought it'd be a truck yeah Yeah I got that I thought you were building a truck Yeah I just was thinking during that Because I was only half listening I had my own brain train going.

[405] Do you think part of the reason you Dax have this little tiny bit of, what will, allergy to BJ?

[406] Well, that's because I thought he didn't like it.

[407] I know, but I'm going to break it down further.

[408] I think it might be more than that.

[409] I think it might be that you're a writer who didn't go to Harvard, who doesn't have this, like, credential above him, didn't write for the lampoon, isn't able to say like, yep, and can't like have that on your resume.

[410] And so maybe you feel insecure.

[411] I didn't know he went to Harvard until yesterday.

[412] Oh.

[413] So that is a great theory and I am very triggered by people who are smart and I think are wealthy.

[414] You're like, no, it went way deeper than that.

[415] It was just a clear.

[416] No, I just thought, this guy doesn't like me. I don't know why he doesn't like me. But had you remembered meeting me?

[417] I do vaguely remember meeting you at the improv, but I've met you other places too.

[418] No, I've been so jealous of you the whole time.

[419] But I guess it's not that I, you know, it's an admiring jealousy, I think.

[420] I just thought you didn't like it.

[421] And I'm wrong.

[422] This is always what happens.

[423] Did you have me on to berate me or to win me over or what?

[424] God, no, God, no. No, I heard from Robbie, BJ has a new show, should we have him on?

[425] And I said, I don't think he likes me. And then Rob said, no, he actually told me in this email, he kind of had a competitive thing with you.

[426] And I was like, oh, that's exciting.

[427] That might be like a whole different thing.

[428] Yeah.

[429] Let's talk.

[430] I'm not afraid to talk to anybody.

[431] Yeah.

[432] And every time I thought someone didn't like me, I was wrong.

[433] Well, no, some people don't like me, but I'm often wrong.

[434] Let's just start there.

[435] That's kind of, I assume people don't like me and I'm wrong all the time.

[436] I'm usually right.

[437] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, you just became a movie star, like immediately after the show that I did.

[438] I mean, I kept slogging away as a writer, but it looked more fun what you were doing.

[439] Well, let's get into that because I don't think, and I said this when I laughed, punked.

[440] I was like, the people that come, in now are not going to be given what I was given because they learn that that comes with a lot I'll be very specific like I got to some one of the bits towards the end I'd already shot most of them in fact that show had already aired so now I'm in a wig and all this stuff and I go to this NFL golf thing and I interview people and when I get there the premises you're going to ask this guy about he's supposed to be everyone thinks he's gay this guy like I think he hit his girlfriend you're bringing that up in the interview blah blah blah and I go oh yeah I'm not gonna I don't want to do any of that like just air everyone's dirty laundry and like well no no that's the bit and i was like i'm yeah i'm not going to do that i'll do something else give me 20 minutes to write something and we came up with other things and it worked out but i could see in their face they're like this sucks this dude we hired to come do this thing we've written it he's just saying to us he's not going to do it my hunch was they weren't going to let anyone else have as much autonomy as i had going forward do you think that was the case or no i didn't doubt anything they told me uh -huh But I guess maybe it just wasn't so bad on my season.

[441] I think they were learning in the first season.

[442] And then I think they figured out more and more what worked.

[443] But I definitely think they focused more on the prank going forward, as opposed to what could potentially just happen was shooting the shit in route to the prank.

[444] Yeah, I thought the pranks were pretty clever.

[445] Uh -huh.

[446] Yeah, and I did think they were about the pranks.

[447] Yes.

[448] And they were the kind of pranks that they were played in me. I was like, whoa, that's funny.

[449] That blew my mind.

[450] Yeah.

[451] They had an appetite to let people run after I was there.

[452] But I don't know.

[453] that's just my guess right i wasn't there to run i mean i was there i was so excited yeah yeah yeah you know i was a writer on a sitcom called raising dad i started doing stand -up someone said oh you should audition for punked i did i got it yeah i couldn't tell anybody ashton kutcher was like the coolest person in the world he's like whispering in my ear what to do with the at the audition you know it was incredible so when i got there yeah it's like okay today like you are doing a photo shoot with little bow wow and a tiger by the way this was one of them keep telling you him to get closer to the tiger he's scared of tigers who the fuck isn't scared of a tiger yeah yeah literally the sigfried and roy thing happened the next week oh my god yeah so thank god oh my goodness yeah so did you have fun doing it or were you so stressed during both i loved it so much yeah but one time i was doing with tommy lee and i was so scared and they were like we don't know how he's going to behave just roll with anything i was like okay and um i have my id in my pocket and at the end of the prank, my idea I had crumpled it so much that it was unusable because that was just my nervous gesture.

[454] Yeah, it was so nerve -wracking, but it was really fun.

[455] Yeah.

[456] I love pranks.

[457] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[458] That someone else would set up a prank for me. It was like to hide a luxury.

[459] If I were a billionaire, I'd probably hire someone, like, come up with some pranks and let me do them.

[460] That's a fascinating difference because I actually didn't do pranks ever.

[461] Okay.

[462] Like, I was too lazy, I think.

[463] Well, you don't like pranks.

[464] Yeah, I don't like being pranks.

[465] Oh, that's ironic.

[466] Do you like roasts?

[467] No. I hate roasts.

[468] I hate roasts.

[469] Oh, I'm too sensitive.

[470] Yeah, me too.

[471] Oh, I would be thinking, like, if I got roasted five years ago, I'd still be thinking about the things they said.

[472] Yeah, and I'd be thinking, you know, are you mad at me?

[473] You know, after I said my part, I don't get it at all.

[474] They are funny.

[475] Oh, my God.

[476] The jokes are great.

[477] Oh, Jeff Ross is such a genius in that way.

[478] And when it seems like they're enjoying it, great.

[479] I don't have the thick enough skin for that at all.

[480] But I'm still obsessed with your opening question.

[481] And, like, I think I don't like you.

[482] So, like, literally, we're all at a roast.

[483] It would just be like...

[484] It would be that for another two hours.

[485] Yeah.

[486] For the rest of your life.

[487] But I hope I'm being really clear in that I think I was like, oh, I don't think I like him defensively because I didn't think you liked me. But now I'm realizing I was completely wrong.

[488] Well, no, I mean, it's competitive.

[489] Like, I'd see you succeed and be like, fuck.

[490] Like, how am I going to do that?

[491] Yeah.

[492] So literally, like, Dax's, like, shaking my fist.

[493] Good.

[494] But, like, not like, he doesn't deserve it or he sucks.

[495] Okay.

[496] Yeah.

[497] Okay.

[498] That's the distinction.

[499] Yeah.

[500] That's why I was excited to be like, hey, you're kind of my dad.

[501] Because I don't get that way with a lot of people, but I did with you.

[502] Oh, my God.

[503] Now I feel terrible.

[504] No, no. I just wanted to be honest with you.

[505] Yeah.

[506] Well, that's the fun of this show, I guess.

[507] Yeah.

[508] This is our life.

[509] It's really fun.

[510] There would be a lovely level roast.

[511] Well, I'd like to think this could be the Louis C .K. Mark Maron episode.

[512] Yeah.

[513] Yeah.

[514] Okay.

[515] All right.

[516] Where else should we go with this?

[517] I don't know.

[518] We're going to have to fabricate some stuff because we really don't have that dense of a history.

[519] But I'm realizing I'm completely wrong.

[520] I'll give you another example.

[521] Aziz you've been around Aziz a bunch I'm sure Must have met him nine times in that same phase When I was doing stand up a lot Like this guy does not like me Like I don't know I don't know what I try very hard When I'm around him to get him to like me And I'm very I ask him a bunch of questions blah blah And then out of nowhere I just got a text from him one day That was like hey I'm thinking about buying this watch I guess you have the same watch and blah And then he was super nice And I was like well yeah Some people just don't have the personality That I associate with being like being interested And being friendly They're in their head Yeah sure Like that's what you were at the improv.

[522] Yes, you're right.

[523] You're in your head as he's in his head.

[524] Which is hard for me to believe because he's such a pro stand -up, right?

[525] But you're right.

[526] You're right.

[527] Every memory I have of medium is at a club.

[528] Yeah.

[529] And it's backstage.

[530] And you're right.

[531] People are probably, even him.

[532] And again, do you think what's happening is you in your head are like, he thinks he's a professional and I'm not?

[533] Yeah.

[534] Yeah.

[535] Yeah.

[536] Yeah, for sure.

[537] Yeah.

[538] That's imposter syndrome.

[539] Yeah.

[540] Yeah.

[541] Yeah.

[542] Which was true on many accounts.

[543] Like, he's a real stand -up and I was new to it.

[544] Right.

[545] He's not even thinking about me. He's thinking about if his shoes are good or not.

[546] Yeah, just pants look good.

[547] All the stuff I think about.

[548] Yeah.

[549] Originally was writing going to be the thing.

[550] I think we have this in common.

[551] Like, did you just know, like, oh, writing was somehow going to be...

[552] Yeah, I was always good at writing.

[553] The same way I said it's unfair that, like, you're spelling and your grammar.

[554] Like, I was good at that.

[555] I didn't think it was anything special.

[556] And then I remember seeing Pulp Fiction in the theater.

[557] And I understood, like, a lightning bolt.

[558] that someone had written this, someone had made every decision, and that was the coolest guy in the world.

[559] And I had seen Quentin Tarantino in a magazine, and I was like, I get it.

[560] Okay, that thing that I do, that's my ticket.

[561] Because also my dad did it.

[562] It was like being a dentist to me. That's true.

[563] Yeah, it was a family business.

[564] So I was like, okay, now I'm going to be like this writer, but it's going to be this glamorous rock and roll thing.

[565] Yeah, yeah.

[566] Can I just tell you that we have that in common?

[567] I saw Pulp Fiction.

[568] I know.

[569] And I was like, something's different here.

[570] Yeah.

[571] You see his fingerprints on it.

[572] Like I remember a song, came on.

[573] I was like, a person chose that song.

[574] I get it now.

[575] I get it.

[576] I thought movies just happened.

[577] Why is that sausage in every single frame?

[578] Yeah.

[579] Just watch it two nights ago with a friend and didn't want to because I've seen it 300 times, but the friend had only seen it once.

[580] I'm like, I'll get through this because I want him to enjoy it.

[581] One second in.

[582] I'm like, fucking want to watch this movie for the rest of my life.

[583] It's like a two -hour trailer in the sense that every single moment, you're like, well, that's the iconic moment.

[584] And it just goes on the whole way.

[585] You're a thousand percent right.

[586] Each time a scene would or they would switch their timeline or whatever.

[587] I'd be like, oh, right.

[588] This is it.

[589] This is the thing.

[590] Yeah, this is that moment.

[591] In that moment, it's just the whole way through.

[592] Oh, my God.

[593] They're just staggering.

[594] It really is.

[595] It really is.

[596] And then I saw an article in the newspaper about Conan O 'Brien having gone to Harvard and wrote for the lampoon.

[597] And I got good grades, not great grades, but I was like, I'm going to get into Harvard.

[598] I'm going to write for that lampoon.

[599] Then I'm going to be a comedy writer.

[600] And then I'm going to be Tarantino.

[601] Yes.

[602] And I devoted myself and I got some lucky breaks.

[603] and I got much of that path.

[604] What are good grades?

[605] Like a 3 -8?

[606] I don't know what the numbers were like a B plus a minus.

[607] My parents were surprised that I got in.

[608] As soon as I got in, their revisionist history was like, oh, he was always a good student and you, a little brother.

[609] We knew he was going to Harvard from sixth grade.

[610] Yeah, not at all.

[611] It was a long shot, and they were shocked when I got in.

[612] I remember that very well.

[613] I was surprised too.

[614] What do you think the secret sauce was?

[615] Did you write a great essay, I assume?

[616] You probably wrote a great admittance.

[617] I think I did write a good essay.

[618] I remember in the interview, I was talking to the guy.

[619] He wasn't very interested.

[620] He wasn't impolite or whatever.

[621] And he said, why should you go to Harvard?

[622] And I said, because I'm not going to sleep.

[623] And he started writing.

[624] And I meant it.

[625] I was like, if I get into a place like this, I think I'm going to waste a fucking second?

[626] And I meant it.

[627] And then when I got there, it was kind of sad because a lot of people wanted to be investment bankers.

[628] I was like, to me, you go here, you become president.

[629] Right.

[630] You become a legend.

[631] Like that's, to me, this was a place for a rebel to go and come out on the other side.

[632] And so many people there weren't.

[633] But that's what I saw it as.

[634] You know, then everyone saw me as one of those guys.

[635] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[636] I know it's not the exact same thing, but I find myself places often where I'm like, this is my crew, huh?

[637] Like, I want to do this.

[638] I'm super and off -roading.

[639] Go out into the desert and every single vehicle has a Trump flag.

[640] Well, I'm not a Trump person or when I wrote Harleys I'd be at gas stations in the chats I'd be involved with I'm like I don't feel like I'm in the group that I'm trying to be in does it make any sense so like if I would have gone to Harvard with that expectation I would have looked around and been like wait oh it's not the thing I kind of thought it was well it's kind of scary because it's like am I that because if I like the same thing these people like are people seeing me like they see them which is scary for certain people because everyone puts everyone in a category I mean, I did to you and you did to me. Oh, he's the cool kid.

[641] Oh, he's the smart guy who thinks I'm stupid or whatever.

[642] Yeah, yeah, and it's not what you're trying to say.

[643] Right.

[644] But the funny thing about acting is that then you get hired for that.

[645] You know what I mean?

[646] That's true.

[647] Like probably when you were up for idiocracy, you're like, oh, I'm a huge idiot.

[648] You got it.

[649] I'm the perfect guy.

[650] That's how I am.

[651] And it's like, I see a part and it's like, this obnoxious ass when I'm like, dude, I was born for this.

[652] Like, you got it.

[653] You know what I mean?

[654] You're like, I'm dyslexic.

[655] I'm definitely.

[656] Are you kidding me?

[657] I'm the fucking biggest loser of all.

[658] I think you're so right.

[659] But can I ask you?

[660] So this is the only group I've ever landed in where I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[661] This is exactly my tribe.

[662] Which tribe?

[663] Show business.

[664] Like when you got to the office and you're there with Daniels and Mike Scher, are you at that point, unlike Harvard, going like, uh -huh, this is my vibe.

[665] Yeah.

[666] Yeah.

[667] That was very exciting.

[668] Yeah.

[669] That group.

[670] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[671] if you dare.

[672] We've all been there.

[673] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[674] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[675] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he, had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[676] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[677] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[678] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[679] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[680] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[681] What's up guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season and Let me tell you, it's too good.

[682] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[683] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[684] And I don't mean just friends.

[685] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[686] The list goes on.

[687] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[688] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[689] So you have brothers and sisters.

[690] Two brothers.

[691] Two brothers.

[692] And what order are you in?

[693] I'm the oldest.

[694] And do you think you fit all the stereotypes of firstborn?

[695] Probably, yeah.

[696] So I have my sob story about being a middle child, which is I was invisible.

[697] What's the burden of the firstborn?

[698] The burden of the firstborn?

[699] I don't know.

[700] I think I felt a lot of pressure, not from my parents.

[701] Just I felt like, okay, I got to do great stuff all the time.

[702] My parents were like, calm down.

[703] But I don't know if that's an oldest child thing, though.

[704] Yeah, yeah.

[705] But it seems like it is.

[706] Like, I'm the leader.

[707] I'm an oldest as well.

[708] Yeah.

[709] I think it's that your parents give you so much attention when you're an oldest.

[710] because they're parenting for the first time.

[711] So they're learning all this stuff.

[712] And it's really crucial that they put the warm water on your body the right way.

[713] Like everything's scarier for them.

[714] So it's a little bit heightened.

[715] And then with the second and third kids, it's like, oh, I know how to do this.

[716] It's easy.

[717] They get less attention.

[718] They get less like anxiety, I think.

[719] Just to be literal, yet there's more investment in the first child than there are in all subsequent children.

[720] As someone who has two kids, I can attest to that.

[721] that like my firstborn I was like dialed in 24 seven and the second was like oh yeah she'll live yeah like I already did this I know this is fine yeah yeah I don't need to stare at her all day long she'll be just fine so maybe you have like maybe you just you have a sense of the investment that went in when you're a firstborn maybe but my parents were always like calm down it's okay just chill yeah were you anxious yeah I think so what kind of kid were you in high school I was like exactly like I am now but How did that do in Boston?

[722] I went to a good public school.

[723] Okay.

[724] And there was definitely a place for the sort of like literary, not a loser, not a cool kid, kind of in the middle, had his friends, liked watching The Simpsons.

[725] Yeah, yeah.

[726] Smoked weed at a party if he could get to that party once in a while.

[727] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[728] Isn't usually invited, but isn't completely out of place.

[729] Also does his homework.

[730] That was a very, I felt normal.

[731] How about dating?

[732] In high school?

[733] Yeah.

[734] I had a wonderful girlfriend named Jenny Albertini.

[735] I was completely in love with.

[736] For how long?

[737] Like two years.

[738] And then did college?

[739] You guys went to different places?

[740] Yeah, broke up like that classic, you know, first winter break.

[741] Oh, no. I mean, that's how it goes, yeah.

[742] I mean, that's not as relevant for you.

[743] And people told me what happened.

[744] I was like, never, not to me and Jenny.

[745] Yeah.

[746] And what is generally the forces behind that?

[747] My assumption is you go away, you miss one another.

[748] There's a ton of options all around.

[749] You meet people.

[750] Yeah.

[751] And you're like, well, am I really going to spend this four -year experience in my life, not interacting with any members of the opposite sex?

[752] It was more that it felt like the world was opening.

[753] It just felt like I didn't want to be right or wrong.

[754] Like I didn't want to be with my high school girlfriend.

[755] It was so small town.

[756] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[757] Look at how cosmopolitan the world is now.

[758] I'm going to have these great adventures.

[759] Absolutely.

[760] Is there any way for you to look at her?

[761] Oh, we're in touch.

[762] You're in touch.

[763] Yeah.

[764] Okay, okay.

[765] Okay, great.

[766] No, she's the greatest.

[767] Okay, great.

[768] Yeah.

[769] I had a girlfriend in high school, too, that I very much loved, and I was with for like four years, and I moved here.

[770] And same thing, I lived in L .A. She lived in Michigan, and then just at some point was untenable.

[771] Like, I tell young people, like, marry them.

[772] Like, I think that, I mean, look, I, I had, you've found love.

[773] But to me, there is something about that reverie when you are young, 18, 19, 20, 21.

[774] I mean, probably a lot of people would give the opposite advice.

[775] But to me, I'm like, follow it, follow it.

[776] You might not get that again.

[777] It's that moment in life, that Romeo and Juliet thing.

[778] Yeah.

[779] I don't know.

[780] Oh, it's so wonderful.

[781] Maybe follow it.

[782] I don't know.

[783] People change so much in their 20s.

[784] It's probably bad advice, but who gives a shit?

[785] But it's actually good to hear that because no one gives that advice.

[786] That's true.

[787] It's very counterintuitive to give that advice.

[788] Yeah.

[789] Should they get them pregnant in high school, too?

[790] I won't make that headline on the show.

[791] BJ recommends high school seniors start procrating.

[792] Yeah, I have all these.

[793] friends from middle school and high school who are still with their partners.

[794] And they still are.

[795] And you just saw a bunch of them.

[796] I just saw a bunch of them at a wedding.

[797] And they are.

[798] And I'm always expecting to go and be like, oh boy, this is going to be tough to watch.

[799] And then they're like totally great.

[800] Yeah.

[801] And it's also phases, right?

[802] Like I've seen these people for 20 something years.

[803] And And there are times where I'm like, oh, yeah, I knew it.

[804] Yep, this is the end of that.

[805] And I called it.

[806] And then they enter a new phase, right?

[807] They have kids or something.

[808] And then they like, revive the relationship.

[809] And I'm like, oh, I guess that's just a regular relationship.

[810] Or there's ups and downs.

[811] And yeah, it's nice.

[812] Your life is your life.

[813] You don't actually meet that many people in your life.

[814] Every single person that you meet is one of a very finite number.

[815] I feel like when we get to heaven if there were such a thing I just mean it hypothetically but like let's say we met those three awkward encounters and this we saw each other we'd be like Dax like hey BJ like we know each other like you don't even have to be friends on this planet like just the fact that you met put yourself in like the point 0 .001 % of people that you've ever met it would be so exciting if you were some more scary and you saw you know someone even if you never really interacted yeah you know what you were talking I was listening but you know how you were out you were kind of thinking of other stuff so what I was 40 % of my brain is just like swimming and guilt that I started the interview by saying that I'm not I'm not recovering I'm sorry I thought you would think it was I thought you would think it was funny well I'm so insecure that like I'm so insecure that your listeners were like yeah fuck that guy thank you oh my god I know I hope I'm owning that the whole thing was in my head but why wouldn't I like you other than be jealous of you well you want to hear the story I made up in my head is like I had this opportunity on that show that no one else got yeah also the show like when it came out in was huge that was so novel that it was a big show cable television right so I got all these opportunities that I was pretty certain wouldn't come everyone else's way that followed not based on talent just based on yeah it was a headline that punked was a big thing the timber lake thing was a big thing I knew they weren't going to let people have that much control over the show going forward So my thought was if you were on that show and then you didn't get to star in a Paramount movie three months later, I'd not like me either.

[816] That was why it seemed very rational that.

[817] That maybe you were like, fuck that dude.

[818] Why do you get to go be in a movie after one season of Punkton and I didn't?

[819] But that's exactly what it was.

[820] But that didn't make you dislike me. I don't think he's good or a good person.

[821] Right, right, right, right.

[822] Okay.

[823] No, I was very much fuck that guy.

[824] Yeah, yeah.

[825] Okay.

[826] But not enough.

[827] But in a good way.

[828] Yeah, in a good and fun way.

[829] And also, like, hating on you in that way, like, fuck that guy in my head.

[830] Like, it was my way of being your peer.

[831] Well, I've talked about this on here a ton of times, which is, like, I was obsessed with Vince Vaughn.

[832] And so the way I handled that was I told rumors about him all the time.

[833] Like, if I heard a tidbit about Vince Vaughn, you were going to hear it from me. Soon, I was going to pass on this tidbit.

[834] And I think I was just exercising this, like, he's so great.

[835] I don't think I can be as good as him, yet I want to be him.

[836] So maybe I'm going to tell this rumor about him.

[837] So maybe he's not so good on this level.

[838] Oh, it's so gross to say all this.

[839] I never sabotaged you.

[840] I sabotaged Vince Vaughn.

[841] Well, he's so embarrassed by that.

[842] He's okay.

[843] But that was how I handled my, like, I was in love with him.

[844] You were young.

[845] I was probably too old to be doing that, though.

[846] It's a complicated business.

[847] But let me ask you, so you're starring in, A Paramount movie without a paddle.

[848] Yeah.

[849] I remember reading that in variety.

[850] Okay.

[851] So you're starring in that movie and you hear that the guy on season two, like, hates you.

[852] Or thinks of you as his rival.

[853] Yeah.

[854] What would you have thought?

[855] Thank you for putting it that way.

[856] Because if it was a dude just like me, I wouldn't have cared.

[857] That's it.

[858] Yes.

[859] And I knew that.

[860] Yes.

[861] But.

[862] And it elevated me to be like, Dax is my fucking rival.

[863] Because you're a successful, smart writer.

[864] and also recognized as a successful smart writer by people I admire, I was probably jealous of that.

[865] I never think that people are jealous of me. Do you ever think people are jealous of you?

[866] Never.

[867] I know.

[868] No, never.

[869] That's a weird thing.

[870] And when my friends are like, they're probably just jealous, I'm like, that's not it.

[871] No one's, yeah, exactly.

[872] That's not it.

[873] No one's fucking jealous of me. Because you're obsessed with your own shortcomings.

[874] Mostly all I think about.

[875] But yes, you're so right.

[876] Had it just been like a nondescript person that wasn't threatening to me in any way, I probably would have not thought about it and thought it was probably endearing.

[877] Yes, that's what I would think.

[878] But then I became somewhat successful and now you are like, oh, that guy.

[879] Okay, so listen.

[880] Okay, so this is another really fascinating thing because this is a little thing that happened between Hussein and I, which is Hussein was in an interview for GQ and he made this point that they give white schlubs their own shows.

[881] And then I was one of the people he gave the example of me the white schlubs that get their own show.

[882] And he said that I was six or something.

[883] I wasn't very attractive.

[884] So we ended up talking.

[885] And I said to him, I don't mind that you don't think I'm good looking.

[886] I don't either.

[887] I think you are.

[888] I was just thinking about actually.

[889] And that was part of my jealousy too.

[890] Well, I don't think I'm good looking, but thank you.

[891] Anyways, I said to him, I don't mind that you think I'm unattractive.

[892] Yeah, join the club.

[893] I'm really bothered that you think I'm only working because I'm white.

[894] That hurts my feelings because I've written everything I've been in.

[895] I have worked my ass off.

[896] And it would really hurt my feelings to think.

[897] you think I just was given this.

[898] And he's like, dude, I don't think that.

[899] I recognize that, blah, blah, blah.

[900] We made peace.

[901] It was wonderful.

[902] After the fact, it occurred to me, he probably just thought he was punching up.

[903] But I don't think of myself as someone that you're punching up to, right?

[904] I don't.

[905] I think I'm the fucking kid going to the learning disabled room.

[906] And Hussein's like, oh, look at the fucking dumb, you know, the big dumb guy.

[907] And then once it occurred to me like, is it possible that he just threw out an example that was so punching up, he wouldn't even worry about how I would feel when I heard that.

[908] And I think that's what it was, but I don't think Hussein thinks he's punching up when he looks at me. So it's very hard to take that in the spirit that it really is.

[909] Yeah, I was obviously punching up.

[910] But I don't think that.

[911] But that's how we see ourselves.

[912] I know.

[913] Yeah.

[914] I really like you as the thing.

[915] Oh, come on.

[916] Don't overcomposing.

[917] It's okay.

[918] But I can hear sweetness in your voice I've never heard before.

[919] I'm sincere.

[920] I'm very vulnerable here.

[921] And I thought you were like smug and smart and a better writer than me. And you're telling people I, yeah.

[922] But so much of that is our physical.

[923] Yeah.

[924] There's so much we cannot control based on our physical appearance.

[925] Some people look warm.

[926] Some people look serious.

[927] It has nothing to do with their personalities.

[928] Yeah.

[929] I'm ashamed though.

[930] I am embarrassed that I wouldn't have thought of it that way.

[931] What do you mean?

[932] Then he actually like looked up to me. Not that he just thought I was a piece of shit, which is what I thought.

[933] Yeah.

[934] Okay.

[935] But listen, this is the point of the show.

[936] This happens every time.

[937] Okay, yeah.

[938] That's why I said, this is the first time it's been, like, talked about necessarily.

[939] It's usually off mic.

[940] Yeah, normally before the person comes in, it's like, I just don't know about this person.

[941] I don't think I'm going to like this person.

[942] He doesn't usually say it to start.

[943] Yeah.

[944] Well, I'm glad.

[945] I'm glad.

[946] Yeah, and then it turned it to something.

[947] But then they always leave, and he's always like, they were great.

[948] 100 % of the time.

[949] Well, you get this close to anybody.

[950] I mean, yeah.

[951] Yeah.

[952] I know this is why this is the solution.

[953] into everything, isn't it?

[954] But what happens when we take the earphones off?

[955] Does it just revert?

[956] 100%.

[957] No, it does.

[958] It does, it switches.

[959] 100%.

[960] Okay, it does switch.

[961] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[962] It really triggered my fear of being dumb.

[963] Yeah.

[964] I think that's exactly what it was.

[965] That, like, I'm honestly tearing up.

[966] Like, that to me is...

[967] Well, good.

[968] Now you owe me an apology.

[969] I want you to be embarrassed.

[970] No, like, I must have been made to feel so dumb as a kid.

[971] And now I epitomized to other people like, oh, he thinks he's so fucking smart.

[972] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[973] But you're not doing that sound on you.

[974] It's people putting that on you.

[975] They're projecting it.

[976] So you can't take that on.

[977] Yeah, but the whole thing you want to do in this business is what you put into the world, what you make people feel.

[978] You know, I want to make people feel like, oh, that's smart like me. Right.

[979] You know, I want to speak to this.

[980] Like when I saw things like Mr. Show or The Simpsons, I was like, that's smart to me. They're talking to me. You know, I want to talk to people like that.

[981] Yeah, I was pretty convinced that kids in the hall was made solely for me in Michigan.

[982] I'm like, I don't think anyone watches this show, but me. I think they're keeping it on the air for me. And I love it.

[983] That's what Bill Hader said about the Dana Carvey show.

[984] They have a great documentary about it It's too funny to fail And he was like, as soon as I saw the show I was like, this is getting canceled Because this is exactly for me And my taste is so niche Yes Yeah Okay, we leave Harvard And we get to L .A. And how long before Leaving Harvard to your un -punked?

[985] About two years.

[986] And in that two years, what are you busy doing?

[987] I had a writing job.

[988] Okay, right on the sitcom.

[989] Raising Dad.

[990] Raising Dad.

[991] I was very unhappy.

[992] but I knew it was like an amazing opportunity.

[993] Right.

[994] So, and I remember, and I think of this still, I would always remind myself all day how much money I was making, because it was a lot of money.

[995] I was like, you're making so much money.

[996] And I realized later, like, when I was in the office, I never once thought about the money.

[997] Oh, wow.

[998] And I was like, that's a bad sign.

[999] If you're ever thinking about how much money you're making, you're not happy.

[1000] That's a great point.

[1001] That is.

[1002] How much, like, just generalized anxiety over finances do you have?

[1003] Out of 10, would you say?

[1004] Zero.

[1005] And that, I don't spend very much, but to me, the luxury of being successful is not thinking about money.

[1006] That is a luxury that almost nobody has.

[1007] I totally agree with you.

[1008] But then plenty of people are rich and they're spending a lot and they're worried about it.

[1009] Or maybe if you come from anxiety, you always stay.

[1010] I'll tell you the karma that did pay off for me. So I had this moment as a stand -up when I was like 24, right before punked or during punked or something, where I suddenly had heat and people coming out to see me and I was like the young comic.

[1011] And I've seen it happen to other people since, and that was my time.

[1012] And the Fox Network came to a showcase, and I just had a great night.

[1013] And I heard afterwards that Fox wanted to make a deal with me. And Greg Daniels was with his wife, Suzanne Daniels, who had a producing deal Fox.

[1014] So he just came with her and saw me and thought, oh, he might be good for that office thing.

[1015] So I got a separate call from Greg.

[1016] And I knew who he was.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] I knew how good he was.

[1019] And so I met with Fox, and they offered me more money.

[1020] And I was out of money.

[1021] I was like in debt to my dad.

[1022] Like, I'm fine.

[1023] and I'm a lucky person, but you feel insecure.

[1024] And they offered me a ton of money.

[1025] And the office was like a much maligned reboot of a British show, et cetera.

[1026] Almost felt sac religious at the time.

[1027] Yeah, but Greg met with me and he drew me two circles of Venn diagram.

[1028] And he said, this is comedy that everybody likes.

[1029] And this is the cool, innovative comedy that people like us like.

[1030] And then the part in the middle, he said, I'm only interested in this part.

[1031] And I was like, I'll follow this guy anyway.

[1032] That's exactly what I want.

[1033] I want that cool, innovative comedy that everybody likes.

[1034] Yes.

[1035] Because it speaks to everybody, right?

[1036] Simpson, Seinfeld.

[1037] Yeah.

[1038] And to me, again, that's that everybody is smart philosophy I have.

[1039] There is a version of that smart that everybody likes.

[1040] And TV is the epitome of it, Seinfeld, Simpsons.

[1041] These are the smartest shows.

[1042] They were the biggest hits.

[1043] It makes sense.

[1044] People like smart things.

[1045] People are smart.

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] So I have this meeting.

[1048] I'm on fire from it.

[1049] And it's $9 ,000 is the guarantee.

[1050] guarantee.

[1051] And Fox is, it's like six, it's like, yeah, yeah.

[1052] Not even comparable.

[1053] What an incredibly hard decision as your first decision.

[1054] First big decision.

[1055] And I was like, well, you don't know what's going to happen with anything.

[1056] And the responsible thing is to take the Fox deal.

[1057] For sure.

[1058] I told my manager, I'm taking the Fox deal.

[1059] And then he calls me at 7 a .m. He says, I was up all night.

[1060] I couldn't sleep.

[1061] When we started working together, we said we'd never do anything for the money.

[1062] The money would always follow.

[1063] And if you take that deal, it's for the money.

[1064] And I pulled out and I took the office.

[1065] Wow.

[1066] And it was the best, you know, thing that ever happened.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] Yeah.

[1069] So look, I was incredibly lucky to be in that situation anyway, but it was very stressful.

[1070] And I did bet on that and it did turn out well.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] Now, how quickly upon arriving at the office before you feel like you are in the flow there and you're not like the dude who just got out of college and don't belong there, right away.

[1073] Right away.

[1074] way I was the cockiest writer there.

[1075] And I was right.

[1076] I was on fire at the very beginning and wrote all my best scripts right away.

[1077] I really had a hot hand.

[1078] And it was later that I kind of got like, I kind of looked down and I was like, whoa, you know, like I don't know.

[1079] And that's when my scripts got shakier.

[1080] It was kind of middle seasons.

[1081] Well, one thing could, yeah, be that insatiable hunger you arrive with.

[1082] and then as you get feeling more safe.

[1083] Or it was just that it was the uncertainty at the beginning that made me not pull people.

[1084] I just had a vision.

[1085] Then later there's a lot of writers.

[1086] There's a lot of eyes on the show.

[1087] I'm kind of maybe playing it safer or splitting the difference.

[1088] And then I get more rattled when someone disagrees.

[1089] So yeah, my scripts got shakier.

[1090] They got more rewritten in the middle seasons.

[1091] And then towards the end, I think I found it again.

[1092] Uh -huh.

[1093] And Greg Daniels, I've been told by Mike, is like the guy you'd want to learn how to show run from.

[1094] Yes.

[1095] I mean, he's the real deal.

[1096] And he also, he cared about teaching everybody.

[1097] So, like, Mindy and I were, like, 24, 25.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] And we're not only getting a chance to write scripts.

[1100] We're in the edit bay because he wants to teach you because he's going to leave one of these days.

[1101] Yeah, yeah.

[1102] So he's like teaching everybody how to edit, how to be on set.

[1103] Writers get to direct.

[1104] Some of the writers and actors go back and forth.

[1105] Some of the actors ended up writing scripts.

[1106] So he kind of, he wants you to learn, which a lot of people don't.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] And they keep everything very separate.

[1109] He liked it fluid.

[1110] Doesn't they just scream confidence to you?

[1111] Yeah.

[1112] But another confident thing is that he would show his doubts.

[1113] He would say, I'm, I can't decide this or that.

[1114] And he'd poll everybody.

[1115] And he'd show the people in other departments, like the accountant.

[1116] Like, what do you think of these two?

[1117] Should Jim and Pam kiss or not?

[1118] Yeah.

[1119] She'd be like, nope.

[1120] You know, whatever.

[1121] Like, that I've learned a lot from.

[1122] is just ask everybody because you know when you hear it.

[1123] That Venn diagram, I mean, it's so crazy because that's exactly what the office was.

[1124] Yes.

[1125] It is mass appeal.

[1126] I don't know anyone who doesn't love it.

[1127] Yeah.

[1128] And it's so different, especially at that time.

[1129] Yeah.

[1130] No, he drew his own bull's eye and then he hit it.

[1131] He hit it.

[1132] It's so crazy.

[1133] What's interesting is we both have this experience too, which is about the same time I go do idiocracy, which is only the second movie I was ever in.

[1134] By the way, why isn't that a show?

[1135] Idiocracy.

[1136] People refer to it all the time.

[1137] And I went with Paul Lieberstein to see that.

[1138] I was so excited.

[1139] And I called movie phone, remember?

[1140] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1141] And here's how much the studio dumped that movie.

[1142] Yeah.

[1143] It was blah, blah, blah, 715, 930.

[1144] Untitled Mike Judge movie.

[1145] It was called Untitled Mike Judge movie on movie phone when it was out.

[1146] What the hell?

[1147] and people still refer to it constantly way more than it was seen now it's been seen well that's what I was going to compare our experience which is like now I didn't have the front end wave but isn't it wild that when did you start on that show 2004?

[1148] Five yeah 2005 that it was like this huge significant thing in your life and then now 16 years later it has this enormous wave on Netflix and everywhere else where it's like it's bigger than it's ever been that we're here with two of our early things being super yeah i feel like we're like musicians who wrote a hit song in the 70s and we get to play it for a long time which i'm grateful for there are huge fans now of the office that literally were one when it was out originally or something yeah and what part of the process did you like the most one of my biggest regrets was not enjoying any of it as much as i should have now that i look back yeah and people say wasn't that that again.

[1149] Steve Correll, in the room, John, Jenna, Rain, like, those writers, like, it'll never happen again.

[1150] Or maybe something special will happen in a different way.

[1151] But at the time, I was just so insecure, nervous, how long is this going to last?

[1152] Am I going to get any lines in the next episode?

[1153] Is my script going to get rewritten?

[1154] Am I going to get fired?

[1155] What happens when this show is canceled?

[1156] Am I making the most of this moment?

[1157] I was so competitive and and career obsessed and self -obsessed.

[1158] And I'm like scratching myself nervous.

[1159] I talked about it.

[1160] But that I didn't just relax.

[1161] So not marrying my high school girlfriend and not.

[1162] I didn't just relax and just let myself be one with the office.

[1163] And I was still able to do some good work and enjoy some good times, but not nearly as much.

[1164] Have you heard Seinfeld on Stern?

[1165] No, that sounds great.

[1166] It's incredible.

[1167] It always is.

[1168] I think he's done it three or four times.

[1169] but he's same way.

[1170] He's like, you know, I just wish I could have enjoyed Seinfeld.

[1171] So I guess it's this weird paradox where it's like, that's a very common regret, I feel like.

[1172] I've thought that if I could live my whole life over, knowing it all turned out okay, whatever that means.

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] I would enjoy every second.

[1175] I'd be like, oh, here I am on that eighth grade bus ride that lasted too long.

[1176] You know, as long as you know it's okay.

[1177] Yeah, we got there.

[1178] You could enjoy everything.

[1179] but you never know.

[1180] That's what I think nostalgia is.

[1181] It's memory minus anxiety.

[1182] It's remember that because what you forget is wondering is the office getting canceled.

[1183] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1184] Other than that, it was great.

[1185] And if you just trust it will work out how it's supposed to work out, I think you could enjoy everything.

[1186] What was even the case you were building in your head with how it would be canceled?

[1187] Considering it was like their biggest show.

[1188] Oh, it wasn't their biggest show for a while.

[1189] The first season was very low rated.

[1190] Oh, okay, okay.

[1191] And I would look on, it's funny, I remember looking on the, IMDB message board for the office constantly when it was a pilot.

[1192] And it would be like, this show is going to be the biggest failure.

[1193] I can't believe they're adding a laugh track.

[1194] And I'd be like, oh no. And they'd be like, wait, you're on the show.

[1195] You know there's no laugh track.

[1196] These guys don't know anything, but I would listen to it.

[1197] I'd be like, oh no, I made the wrong call.

[1198] I should have made the clock steal.

[1199] You know, like, you just listen to everybody.

[1200] But yeah, season one was very low rated.

[1201] And season two was better rated.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] And then, but like, I literally played the temp.

[1204] like I'm the easiest possible guy to fire.

[1205] Sure, sure, sure.

[1206] And what's wild is I had a meeting with Greg right in the last season of the show.

[1207] I went there.

[1208] And you all wrote where you shot, right?

[1209] Yeah.

[1210] Yeah, that was very rare.

[1211] We were there all day in actual Dunder Mifflin.

[1212] Yes, it would be weird to be a writer on the show and then also an actor or it's like some days you're going to take a write and go to hair and makeup instead of going to the writer's room or wherever.

[1213] Yeah, but it's funny because I did have some attachment to it as a place.

[1214] I would be at a Dunder Mifflin desk.

[1215] like doing my work or drinking coffee, you know, and I was in the suit.

[1216] I did work there, you know, for real in a way.

[1217] It all blurred.

[1218] Yeah.

[1219] And I knew that was special.

[1220] Now, I read this really funny thing you said once that was basically like the giveaway that this whole thing has been a dream is the simple fact that you happen to also be on a show with a dude you went to high school with.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] And you guys even wrote something together at one point?

[1223] Yeah.

[1224] So I wrote the senior show, which was like the big fun show that everyone does, not just the theater kids like that was a big raucous new and south tradition i'm talking about john krasinski really quick just so so you know you guys went to the same high school what that's crazy same class everything that's the simulation everything same little league team yeah the Orioles yeah what would you rate your friendship at that time out of 10 like a six like that's weirder that we weren't lifelong friends we were lifelong friendly acquaintances yeah yeah that doesn't usually happen no yeah but you guys were cool and you...

[1225] Oh, totally.

[1226] Did you have a part and then casting him?

[1227] I mean, it's funny.

[1228] It was exactly the same as my life has gone ever since which was John was like the cool kid.

[1229] I was the writer.

[1230] I wrote a lead part for John and gave myself a little part.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] And he was amazing and I was good enough.

[1233] Wow.

[1234] That was great.

[1235] But yeah, if I woke up and it was all a dream, I'd be like, yeah, why the hell was John Cazinski?

[1236] Like, yeah.

[1237] The algorithm is bad.

[1238] The simulation's like they got lazy.

[1239] Yeah, or like he didn't shuffle the Uno deck Yeah, yeah, two wild cards in a row Was there any aspect that was like, I don't know that this is the case for me as much But I think for a lot of actors They move out of their small town And they come here And then they kind of adopt a new persona It's a great chance to kind of reinvent yourself When you get here.

[1240] I should have done that.

[1241] But maybe you and John were both pretty authentic to who you had been in high school.

[1242] I guess what I'm saying?

[1243] Yeah, was there any moment you were like, what?

[1244] Oh, you're like, this is a movie star version of you?

[1245] Yeah, well, I do remember I ran into him in a blockbuster video, which dates it, like, right after.

[1246] And it was like, hey, man, I'm like, I'm doing theater and improv.

[1247] And I was like, oh, God, I'm the real deal.

[1248] I'm doing this.

[1249] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1250] I did this all through high school.

[1251] You know what I mean?

[1252] Okay.

[1253] And then I was unpunked.

[1254] And then I saw him at the audition.

[1255] And I was going to be Ryan.

[1256] I had already been hired as Ryan.

[1257] And this was the audition for Jim.

[1258] And I was like, of course.

[1259] Like, of course.

[1260] It was jealous, but also excited.

[1261] Like, this guy looks just like Jim, and he's totally going to get it, and here we go.

[1262] And now I won't be the most famous office star at my high school reunion, but, like, he's the right.

[1263] Oh, my God, I didn't even think of that.

[1264] But the show's going to be good.

[1265] You know what I mean?

[1266] Oh, my God, that's...

[1267] Yeah, no, that's crazy.

[1268] Was he cool in high school?

[1269] Yeah, Vince Vaughn had gone to my high school.

[1270] I would have just killed myself a while ago, I think.

[1271] Right.

[1272] And on top of everything else.

[1273] You couldn't even be the shining star of your high school.

[1274] No. Diet Vince Vaugh.

[1275] I mean, I do think that that's a cosmic joke on me. That is.

[1276] Yeah, it is.

[1277] It really is.

[1278] Don't forget.

[1279] I'm going to make John Krasinski even more famous for the exact same thing.

[1280] Obviously, if I was directing the scene, it'd be like you arrived first.

[1281] People were really thrilled.

[1282] It was going good.

[1283] And then fucking Krasinski rolls in.

[1284] He rolls in.

[1285] And it's like, like rocket ship.

[1286] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[1287] If you dare.

[1288] Can we talk about Mindy for one second?

[1289] because we're both obsessed with her.

[1290] We've been doing the show for almost four years.

[1291] We've probably set out loud on the show over 65 times how badly we would like to interview.

[1292] Is that why I'm here?

[1293] No. I was like, I think we'll probably talk about Mindy, but we probably shouldn't because I don't want to trigger BJ because if I was in his position and then we were doing the interview and by the end, someone was like, you know, we love Dax.

[1294] I'd be like, me too.

[1295] Well, I guess my interest here is simply we're kind of obsessed with her.

[1296] Mary.

[1297] And you guys are best friends and you dated and stuff.

[1298] so you clearly see even more than what we see.

[1299] I get it.

[1300] I get it.

[1301] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1302] You're not wrong.

[1303] Yes.

[1304] And then I also think we're in a unique situation where it's like you met Mindy.

[1305] If you become better friends with Mindy, then I will kill myself.

[1306] No, no, no, no, no. Fucking Dax.

[1307] No, no, no, no. But I met Monica before she was Monica Padman, which is very thrilling, I think.

[1308] Yeah.

[1309] And to see how someone acts in the wake of that is really interesting.

[1310] And from my point of view, Monica's like perfect at it.

[1311] She's not doing what I did, which is like read about myself nonstop when I could.

[1312] Google search myself.

[1313] I mean, it took me three years to learn.

[1314] I would search you too.

[1315] See how are you doing?

[1316] See how much further ahead of me you were.

[1317] And you're I think four years older.

[1318] Right?

[1319] So I knew your age.

[1320] So I was like, all right.

[1321] But at this day, okay, he's done that.

[1322] But that means I have four years to do this.

[1323] You and I are so fucking similar.

[1324] I would like, I'd be like at one time, I knew exactly.

[1325] exactly how old Vince Vaughn was in Swingers.

[1326] I'm like, well, that ship sailed.

[1327] You're not going to be him.

[1328] And I'll look at him here.

[1329] Yeah, and then you find someone else.

[1330] I'm having a really hard time comprehending that that was, that's your truth.

[1331] But I am accepting it.

[1332] But the notion that you would have been clocking like, okay, well, I have four years.

[1333] Oh, I can still remember your picture on the punked website.

[1334] Oh, my gosh.

[1335] And you're looking off to the side with your fucking cool, spiky blonde hair.

[1336] Like this little Jewish comedy writer.

[1337] I'm like, God, damn it.

[1338] Oh, my God.

[1339] Yeah, I have a really hard time understanding that.

[1340] But we all this.

[1341] Someone looks at me like that.

[1342] Absolutely.

[1343] I couldn't imagine that.

[1344] It's probably best that you can't imagine it or that I can't.

[1345] No, it would be so good if we could.

[1346] I think if you do MDMA, you're like, oh, my God, I see it.

[1347] That's why I did drugs so much.

[1348] Because when I'm on them, I do feel like someone who is wonderful and attractive.

[1349] And yes, and people are drawn to.

[1350] And the future is so optimistic.

[1351] There'll be no financial issues.

[1352] But when do you let it go, right?

[1353] Like I had that with her.

[1354] With Mindy.

[1355] Like I'm just like following her and like, oh my God, she's doing this and she's doing this and she's so brilliant and I want to be that and I want to do this.

[1356] But then at some point I'm like, well, I'm just not her.

[1357] Like you just have to go into some acceptance mode.

[1358] And it's good.

[1359] I think you can't really be you until you let go of not being someone else.

[1360] Well, to me, she's what she is to you.

[1361] She is so extraordinarily successful and amazing.

[1362] But all the time, I mean, if and when she comes on, I'm sure.

[1363] sure she'll tell the same thing, but she is always thinking, oh, no, everything's a mess, everything's ruined, I'll never work again.

[1364] Like, just this is nuts.

[1365] I've seen it for years, but, you know, all successful people think like that.

[1366] Exactly.

[1367] And so is it, is it a waste of time to even wish we weren't that way and just, or rather just go like, yeah, that's how we are.

[1368] And that and then the result of it is this great thing.

[1369] And I just got to take that lump with what comes out of it.

[1370] And I have a fantasy where I would work out of the love of being creative.

[1371] Yes.

[1372] That sounds so wonderful.

[1373] And I, wish I could achieve that.

[1374] And I certainly have inched towards it.

[1375] But at the very beginning, wasn't it that at the beginning of anything?

[1376] I was at the groundlings.

[1377] Yeah.

[1378] Nothing was going to happen.

[1379] Like, there's no paycheck.

[1380] You can't get promoted.

[1381] Those shows in writing for my classmates was probably the high watermark of my enjoyment of this long experience, which is I was doing it for no reason other than to make my classmates laugh, hopefully, and to enjoy them making me laugh.

[1382] There was no goal.

[1383] I mean, there was the ultimate goal, yes, of like getting on Saturday Night, but no illusions of like Sunday night, if the show's great, I'm going to blank.

[1384] That didn't happen.

[1385] It's just Sunday, the show's over and that's that.

[1386] Whereas your show airs and then the next year, you're like, what did it do?

[1387] Right.

[1388] And if it did this number, it means this.

[1389] And I start plugging it into all these different models to see where I'm going to end up in five years.

[1390] Yes.

[1391] And that's exhausting and not fun and not pleasurable.

[1392] And that's, that was what I was saying about being on the office was that I was there.

[1393] I was and Steve Carrell once said earlier on we're going to be remembered for the rest of our lives what we do here on the show and I was like well that's nice thing to say but you're Steve Correll I'm sure but as big as his career is the office did become the biggest thing that we've done yeah and I wish that I was like what you're saying I was thinking okay but what's next what are they going to think of me yeah yeah like what am I going to do like this is going to be the launching pad to what whereas literally when I was on punked someone said to me and other actors like I think this is a a really good, you know, launching pad.

[1394] And I was like, in my mind, I'm like, we're here.

[1395] I'm on punked.

[1396] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1397] This is the most exciting.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] Other than chasing you, I was in the moment.

[1400] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1401] You know, it was fine.

[1402] I didn't, I thought this is, this is it.

[1403] And I just, wherever you are, this is it.

[1404] Let's talk about you being an inglorious bastards.

[1405] Yeah, that was absolutely.

[1406] Oh, my God.

[1407] Okay.

[1408] I just had a fucking flash of being jealous of you.

[1409] Just now remember.

[1410] Of that?

[1411] Yes, I'm watching Inglorious Bastards.

[1412] and I think they're on a dolly and they're going across our bastard.

[1413] You know, the guy's in Pitt's crew.

[1414] And there's that guy who you think doesn't like you.

[1415] Right, and he's in my hero's movie.

[1416] Okay, yeah, I had a real blast of jealousy.

[1417] Okay.

[1418] Okay, good.

[1419] Doesn't make me happy.

[1420] Okay.

[1421] But it makes me happy for the interview.

[1422] How do you get to an audition?

[1423] How do you, or did he cast you?

[1424] No, I was just, I was called into an audition.

[1425] I went there.

[1426] There's my hero, like, in the flesh.

[1427] I read the scene.

[1428] You read for him.

[1429] I read for him.

[1430] he read with me because he likes reading oh my god he laughed oh my god it was all i thought about until i got the part all i thought about till i filmed it oh all i've thought about since like you know yeah it was everything you wanted it to be yeah were you present for that i was very present i was so nervous though i wish i had relaxed more but i was present as fuck yeah and i knew then it would never be like this again because it's also it's brad pitt he's wearing a white tuxedo you're in europe it's like insane and also he's the only person I think that loves the glamour, the religion of movies.

[1431] It's a job.

[1432] Tarantino or Peritino.

[1433] Yes, yes.

[1434] Everything else I've been on or even heard of, it's a job.

[1435] There's not magic to it.

[1436] It might be art. It might be amazing.

[1437] But there's not the sense that you are in a magical universe, and it is with him.

[1438] And he sees it that way, and you see it that way.

[1439] And so it's its own world.

[1440] But I was so intimidated.

[1441] I remember, I knew he liked cigars.

[1442] And I bought a box of cigars on Thanksgiving.

[1443] We're on Thanksgiving on Berlin at Sally Manky's house, that late, great editor.

[1444] Yeah, yeah.

[1445] I bought a box of cigars.

[1446] And then I gave them to my friend Omar in the movie, and I was too shy to join them to smoke cigars.

[1447] I was so, I bought the cigars.

[1448] And I heard like, hey, Quentin's breaking out the cigars.

[1449] And I was so, I don't know what came over me. I was so nervous that I didn't go.

[1450] And I'm sure he thought I was a dick from it.

[1451] know what I mean?

[1452] But like, I was like, I can't, I can't cross that line.

[1453] I had bought the cigars.

[1454] Oh, man. I hate the story, BJ.

[1455] But isn't it so real?

[1456] I've never told the story.

[1457] Yeah.

[1458] And so, and that happens to me a lot.

[1459] It happens with him.

[1460] It happens a lot of people.

[1461] I'm so excited about them.

[1462] And I, I can't show it.

[1463] I just like shut down.

[1464] And then they're like, who's that dick in the corner?

[1465] He's just like, avoiding me. Yeah, he probably thinks he's smarter than me you know and i'm avoiding him because i'm like i just froze up oh man i mean obviously he likes you he wouldn't have cast you at the time he cast me i don't know i don't know that happens a lot with me with people i admire mm okay so my two great obsessions in show business are brad pitt and tarantino but so you and the fact that you had the double fucking whammy it's like you're either listening to pitt make a monologue or you're hearing Tarantino come in and talk about what just happened.

[1466] And were you thinking, like, I must imprint every syllable.

[1467] I remember this literally because Quentin would drink with the crew out.

[1468] And I'd want to get drunk with Tarantino, but I was also so worried I wouldn't remember every word he said.

[1469] And I was like, should I take notes?

[1470] Or I'd ask him a question and he would go on and on.

[1471] And I was like, no, no, film history is like being erased because I've had a drink.

[1472] Oh, my God.

[1473] This is so, I can relate so much to this.

[1474] Yeah.

[1475] I had that with my judge.

[1476] I was just like, you know, if you want to get breakfast tomorrow or whatever, I'm just, you know, I'm solo here in Austin.

[1477] So like, I'll just go anywhere with you.

[1478] I'll come to your house.

[1479] And how to go?

[1480] Lovely.

[1481] Like, I fell in love with him.

[1482] I can't say what he felt about me. But like, I was like, yeah, I'll come over to your house.

[1483] I mean, just inviting.

[1484] Yeah, that's the opposite of me. Yeah.

[1485] And so you run two different risks.

[1486] So mine is, I've most certainly been an unwelcome visitor.

[1487] places that's assured versus I don't go and they think maybe I don't like them so it's like damned if you do damned if you don't I guess I'd rather just be an unwanted guest I'd rather run that risk I love that yeah I think yeah whenever I'm like should I blurt this out or not I'm always glad I did yeah yeah instead of censoring yourself so you left before the office ended though I was gone the very last season yeah and what took you away from there a few things I was burnt out Mindy had left.

[1488] Karell had left.

[1489] Okay.

[1490] And they wanted a new showrunner.

[1491] And they asked if I would want to do that.

[1492] And I couldn't imagine it.

[1493] And I also couldn't imagine, like, just hanging around without it.

[1494] Yeah, yeah.

[1495] And I just couldn't do it anymore.

[1496] I didn't have the love.

[1497] I didn't.

[1498] Yeah.

[1499] And I remember, Greg brought me into his office and he was like, what is it?

[1500] Like, how can I keep you here?

[1501] And I think he thought it was a negotiation or I need more money or I need more time off or whatever.

[1502] I need more lines, whatever.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] And I said, sometimes you just know when it's time.

[1505] And he said, I got it.

[1506] And that was it.

[1507] Because he had left SNL, the same reason.

[1508] I would imagine that you respected the show enough to not want to do a bad job at it.

[1509] Yeah, the very, very end I didn't have the love.

[1510] And so where did you go immediately out?

[1511] I know you ended up writing on, you were consulting on Mindy's show for a minute.

[1512] Yeah, I hung out there.

[1513] I would quite call it a breakdown, but I really, I was really, I had kind of a breakdown.

[1514] I was really burnt out and unhappy.

[1515] I'd just been through this breakup that threw me, and it was just time.

[1516] and I'd never really grown up.

[1517] I'd been the show from like 25, like 31 or 32, and I had never had to do anything for myself, and I think I'd become just sort of a self -it.

[1518] I hadn't learned how to do anything.

[1519] Would I be right and guessing that if you're spending all your time and focus on this show, and the show turns out great, which it did, but that can be enough to buoy you for the rest of your life, which is dangerous, like, oh, yeah, my house is a mess.

[1520] Oh, this is fucked up.

[1521] Oh, yeah, I didn't call back.

[1522] That the thing I'm focused on is working.

[1523] Yeah.

[1524] It's dangerous.

[1525] And it's like, oh, it makes sense someone else should take care of everything.

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] And it becomes very dangerous, and I've played into it.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] But someone told me once, if you want to know if someone's a celebrity, ask them to fill out a form.

[1530] Oh, my God.

[1531] You ever get a form?

[1532] They're like, well, this should be pre -filled.

[1533] I don't know my social security, like whatever.

[1534] Send it to my manager.

[1535] Yeah, exactly.

[1536] And I was very glad at the beginning of the office, I left my clothes on the floor of my trailer.

[1537] Now, that's what I did at home.

[1538] That's what I do in my bedroom.

[1539] I don't think or mean anything by it.

[1540] And I'm so grateful the wardrobe person came to me. Yeah.

[1541] Said, hey, just so you know, it's disrespectful to leave your clothes on the floor.

[1542] Put them on the couch or hang them up.

[1543] Good for them.

[1544] Good for them.

[1545] But nobody did that to me. And I became like, I don't know, a jerk without realizing in all kinds of departments, I'm sure.

[1546] I cringe the more I learn about things.

[1547] No one would do that.

[1548] They would probably behind my back say stuff.

[1549] But no one is like, hey, here's how it works.

[1550] Okay.

[1551] There was no parenting in Hollywood if you're an actor or whatever.

[1552] So yeah, so I left that show and I hadn't learned much and I'd been in the room.

[1553] I had all these notebooks I kept of every idea that didn't fit the office.

[1554] And I started writing them down.

[1555] It's like, oh, there's probably 20 movies in here.

[1556] 40 movies.

[1557] There was like 100 opening lines.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] So I started writing them down to see what I could turn them into.

[1560] And then I just kept writing them, they became a book of short stories.

[1561] Yes.

[1562] 64 short stories.

[1563] And it was very cathartic for me to do.

[1564] just be alone in my house, like finding out my own voice again.

[1565] Yeah.

[1566] And then the most pure joyous creative thing I ever did, I wrote this children's book.

[1567] I was with my best friend's kid, and he kept handing me books to read him.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] And truly, like you're saying, that creative spark, it was pure creativity and the most, like, successful single thing I've ever done.

[1570] So that's the lesson.

[1571] This is a book without pictures.

[1572] The book with no pictures.

[1573] Yeah.

[1574] The book with no pictures.

[1575] And I was like, what does he hope I read him?

[1576] like and I was like oh a book where I'm like I have to make fun of myself it's like a script so I wrote that book and then that was so joyous to have this book that made kids laugh was it on the fucking bestsellers children's for like 160 weeks or something longers you know for four years so I wrote those books then it was time to go back but I felt lost I felt lost yeah and I wanted to feel lost after all that but you feel like maybe you had skipped the part of your young adulthood where where you would have kind of to learn who you were as a man. Exactly.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] I did not know who I was.

[1579] I was part of this show.

[1580] Yeah.

[1581] I did, I did, I did not know who I was.

[1582] In how many years did that last?

[1583] Probably like five.

[1584] Five years.

[1585] Three, I don't, you don't know time in LA.

[1586] Three years, 10 years.

[1587] I don't know.

[1588] So were you exploring like therapy or anything?

[1589] How were you trying to help yourself through it?

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] Therapy.

[1592] I think I didn't do enough.

[1593] Honestly, it was kind of a mess.

[1594] Uh -huh.

[1595] Yeah, I felt very lost.

[1596] I felt like I also, I could go anywhere.

[1597] I had money.

[1598] I could act, I could write, I could do TV, I could do film and no one was telling me what to do and so I kind of half did everything and then books, you know, whatever, but I didn't have people in my life really.

[1599] I had Mindy as a very close friend, but I didn't have a relationship, I didn't have a group of friends.

[1600] L .A. was very isolating and I didn't have a path.

[1601] And again, like the actor thing, people are like, whatever you want.

[1602] And so I didn't really know what to do.

[1603] I was very sad.

[1604] Well, I would imagine, too, like you're also at that age where it's like, okay, TikTok, I don't know about you, But for me, I was always like, okay, 32, man, it is time to find someone to have a kid with if you're going to, like, this is a big priority of mine, and I've not done the work that would lead up to that.

[1605] So was that part of the panic at all?

[1606] Yeah.

[1607] But then instead of getting somewhere, I would just be like, I got to have a drink.

[1608] I got to take a break.

[1609] I got to distract myself with, like, a hookup or something.

[1610] This is my other advice to kids to marry your high school girlfriend.

[1611] Enjoy whatever you're doing in the moment.

[1612] And yeah, get your life together.

[1613] Do the work.

[1614] And I didn't do the work.

[1615] And I paid for it.

[1616] Yeah.

[1617] With kind of loneliness and being a jerk.

[1618] Can I suggest something?

[1619] One thing I say on here a lot is that what saved my life ultimately was getting famous.

[1620] In that, I was suicidal as an alcoholic with success.

[1621] And so the gift of that was I could no longer say I was upset because I wasn't successful.

[1622] For 10 years, I was unsuccessful out here.

[1623] And so I could say the root of all my problems was.

[1624] that that I didn't have money that I no one was recognizing that I was talented and then when you still had problems and then when I got all the shit and I'm like oh I'm more miserable with all the shit than I was with none of the shit what a fucking gift because had that not happen I would have died thinking oh I'd be complete inside if I were successful I would have told myself that life forever and kept drinking I'm pretty sure yeah so I think in a really bizarre way like getting everything I wanted and still being miserable and lonely and suicidal was like what a fucking gift.

[1625] And I would imagine for you, similarly, you're in the wake of having been on the most successful show of the last decade.

[1626] You're financially fine.

[1627] Yeah.

[1628] And you're fucking miserable.

[1629] Right.

[1630] It helps to be able to recognize that when you've checked the two big boxes that are supposed to help you feel good, you recognize, oh, something else is going on.

[1631] Something else is going on.

[1632] Lack of connection and ego that prevents you from doing that and the ability to do anything makes you do nothing sometimes.

[1633] And what pattern do you think you were most likely to fall in in friendships and relationships.

[1634] What pattern?

[1635] Yeah, like, so for me, I come on like a freight train.

[1636] I want you to like me. I want you to fall in low with me. You fall in low with me. I start thinking you probably aren't that good of a person if you love me. I start getting unattracted to you because why would you like me?

[1637] And then I'm not this glowing flashlight in your face anymore because that's the pattern I. I would find myself in quite often.

[1638] I once read about Putin.

[1639] Oh, I love Putin.

[1640] He said, He'll never forgive someone for loving him.

[1641] Oof.

[1642] He'll never forgive somebody for God, man. And I feel that sometimes.

[1643] I feel that I can attract such loyalty and love from some people around me. I'm getting emotional again.

[1644] I can do that.

[1645] And then it makes me probably the same self -loathing and triggers, but it makes me not trust them anymore or not respect them or think they're wrong.

[1646] I'm remembering, you know, I was at such a low point at one point a few years ago.

[1647] in this whole mess period and my little brother who's 12 years younger Lev and Lev looked up to me so much he thought I was the best he's such a hype man he's such a happy puppy and I couldn't talk to him anymore because I was so down on myself and then I didn't return his calls I just couldn't face it and I just resented that he admired me and thought I was great because you knew the truth yeah I knew the truth and my mom had to call me and say hey like Lev is really hurt and confused you know and it was because he loved me so much yeah yeah yeah and I couldn't accept it yeah I couldn't accept I couldn't talk to him but I was just like he's so fucking wrong it's like yeah and so you can turn on people for loving you when you feel it so that is the most sort of I get to quote Putin you're right so it's the most colorful example I can think of of a pattern yeah and how would that work itself out with female relationships similarly yeah yeah i think so monica can i tell your story sure she liked a teacher well yeah i'm not gonna say a name or anything and i'm not gonna say where but she had a teacher she liked and then at some point you made out with them no there was just some reciprocation it wasn't we didn't i thought you went to his apartment no you guys okay you have said that so many times and i've corrected you so many times and it's really in my head what age are you is this a high school or No, no, this was at UCB, so I was...

[1648] 25?

[1649] Okay, well, that's better than I thought you were saying.

[1650] Well, she also was super in love with all of her teachers as a child.

[1651] Because that's my pattern of liking people who aren't available to me. Okay.

[1652] So then this teacher was in the mix, but then he kind of became a little bit more available.

[1653] And then I was like...

[1654] You don't like him anymore.

[1655] He shouldn't like me. If he likes me, there's something wrong with him, so I no longer like him.

[1656] I've misassessed him.

[1657] Yes.

[1658] You said you had a girlfriend Who was famous He was obsessed with her growing up And then he started dating her He was like, oh no I got the purse It'd be like if I started dating Matt Dayman Although I think that would have worked out Yeah I'm sure that would be the one that works I know right Yeah very natural Oh man He does look very teacher like to you though He looks like he's in this picture Encouraging smile You can do it Classmate of yours So smart I mean, we can stretch it.

[1659] God, he's handsome.

[1660] Anyway, yeah, and once he got that, that again was supposed to cure the thing.

[1661] I was supposed to look in the mirror and go like, you handsome fucking awesome dude.

[1662] And instead?

[1663] I'm like, you tricked her.

[1664] She's going to find out your, I hadn't been offered an acting job in a year.

[1665] I was like, she's going to find out shortly my career's over and it's an embarrassment to her to be with me. Right.

[1666] People are curious, why the fuck is she with him?

[1667] All the things I thought it would heal.

[1668] it made worse, whatever insecurities I had just got amplified.

[1669] So that's part of your realizing oh, this doesn't cure it.

[1670] Correct.

[1671] Like, I'm going to have to give myself some self -esteem.

[1672] No one else is going to be able to give it to me. God knows I've tried.

[1673] That goes with dudes too.

[1674] I got to tell you, I mean, sure, we had the same experiences.

[1675] Like, I go on punked and Coutcher's like, you want to go to a basketball game.

[1676] I'm like, what the fuck?

[1677] Ash and Coutcher wants to go.

[1678] And I'm like walking through Staples with him and I'm thinking, do I stick out like a turd in a punch bowl?

[1679] or do I look like we should be together?

[1680] I mean, these are the thoughts I'm having.

[1681] And then we step up to get, he's going to get a beer.

[1682] Now I've got to tell him I don't drink because I'm an alcoholic.

[1683] Now I'm panicked.

[1684] It's like being on a first date with a girl.

[1685] Right.

[1686] And again, I need him to validate me. Well, Ashton has that especially, I find.

[1687] Oh, man. You know, he's in my movie that I just shot.

[1688] Oh, he is?

[1689] Yeah, he's incredible.

[1690] I did not know that.

[1691] Yeah.

[1692] Yeah, he's in my movie and he's amazing.

[1693] What movie?

[1694] What's the name of that?

[1695] It's called Vengeance.

[1696] It's about, I play a podcaster.

[1697] Oh, my God.

[1698] named Max Pleppard.

[1699] He goes to West Texas and kind of gets caught up in the story.

[1700] He was going to be kind of judgmental about this small town and then he gets kind of caught up in it and Ashton is this charismatic guy who looms large in the town that my character misjudges.

[1701] Oh my gosh, this is wonderful.

[1702] But I was like, this guy is so, he is such a cinematic presence.

[1703] And I told my DP, how would Tarantino shoot Ashton?

[1704] Oh, what he goes right away.

[1705] He said, I'd give him, this is actually Tommy Maddox upshot, a cinematographer friend who couldn't do the movie in the end.

[1706] But he's like, you give him the Christoph, man. I was like, what do you mean?

[1707] He's like, Christoph walks into Inglorious Bastards.

[1708] He's lit from the front.

[1709] He's lit from the slats.

[1710] He's lit from the side.

[1711] Doesn't even make any sense.

[1712] Camera turns around.

[1713] He's lit the same way.

[1714] He's got to glow.

[1715] He's magic.

[1716] You got, never seen this guy before.

[1717] And he's the biggest star you ever seen.

[1718] He's like, that's what we're doing with Ashton Coucher.

[1719] Because we know everybody loves him.

[1720] Sure.

[1721] But this sort of this magic and mystique, I really wanted to capture.

[1722] But it was incredible.

[1723] Like, now here I am on the other side.

[1724] And I get to direct Ashton.

[1725] what could be more fun it was intimidating yeah and exciting but did you have the moment where you're looking at the monitor and ashton saying things you've written and you've decided how they're gonna like that and you're watching it and then you get sucked into your own movie yes that's the rarest nicest feeling in the world when someone's great yeah right the cooper was in the second movie i made and i was watching behind the monitor and the speech ended and there was like this long long beat And then he kind of looked at camera, like, you're going to call a cut.

[1726] And I literally was watching a movie at that point.

[1727] I was like, he just made this a movie.

[1728] Like, this is a real movie now.

[1729] That's cool.

[1730] Oh, what a feeling.

[1731] Yeah, generally, I'm just jealous of everyone's shit.

[1732] But when they're in your thing and they're making your thing better, it cuts through the jealousy and you're just grateful.

[1733] Yes.

[1734] Like, oh, I'm so grateful to put each other and stuff.

[1735] Yeah, that's the cure.

[1736] A buddy comedy.

[1737] Yes.

[1738] Actually, this is wonderful.

[1739] I feel like we'd be actually very good mismatch.

[1740] Very good.

[1741] We're great mismatch.

[1742] Yeah.

[1743] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1744] Yeah.

[1745] Oh, my God, it could be Ben Stiller and Vince Vaughn.

[1746] Oh, fuck those guys.

[1747] Speaking of buddy comedy, God, this must have been when I first started babysitting.

[1748] When I first started babysitting for them, we watched something together and you were like, oh, my God, I have a great idea.

[1749] You and Mindy should do coming to America, a new coming to America.

[1750] That's good.

[1751] And you'd be the slutty sister.

[1752] Yeah, you had a whole plan.

[1753] And then Kristen, of course, because.

[1754] God bless her.

[1755] She, like, immediately got in touch with Minnie and was like, can I meet with you?

[1756] And, like, they were on the same lot at that time.

[1757] Yes.

[1758] And she, like, brought her a gift basket.

[1759] She's, oh, she's just the best.

[1760] Yeah.

[1761] I was like, so, you know, hey.

[1762] And we have this idea.

[1763] And she was like, oh, cool.

[1764] Like, I think she, like, took it in and then.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] She never thinks anyone's serious.

[1767] I mean, that's her own imposter syndrome.

[1768] She probably thought, like, yeah, right.

[1769] Why would everyone do that with me?

[1770] And you're like, hello?

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] Yeah.

[1774] Yeah.

[1775] say he sent her flowers the other day and she's like she didn't even meet you know whatever she's like she's like why would she have i don't get it you know yeah because you're mindy cayling yeah yeah yeah god it's amazing it's so universal it's so universal it's sad but reassuring you've certainly gotten a call or an email from somebody who you're like how the hell did they get my yes right yeah okay so Kristen is at the status where she's that person like somehow she i can't get Mindy's email.

[1776] I don't know how to get me. I don't know how to contact Mindy, but Kristen is in that little strata, that upper echelon where she somehow can contact anyone.

[1777] Do you have any crazy one where you like, you answer and you're like, what?

[1778] How did you?

[1779] Or email?

[1780] Ben Stiller.

[1781] He didn't reach out to me, but I was interested and then I sent him a script for something on a lark and then he just emailed me and was like, let's talk.

[1782] Oh my God.

[1783] And then he didn't end up doing it, but that was, I just talked to him on the phone.

[1784] And yeah, just because you just because you just brought him up.

[1785] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1786] That was very exciting.

[1787] Yeah.

[1788] So can I ask you, in this five -year period where you had written a children's book and written the 64 short stories and you're going to therapy, are you making any kind of like structural changes to your life?

[1789] Are you like enacting new behaviors?

[1790] Are you exercising?

[1791] Are you, like, what kind of things are you doing to get that life in order to define who you are?

[1792] I'm trying everything, but not in a structured way.

[1793] I'm working out.

[1794] I'm meditating.

[1795] TM?

[1796] Yeah, I did TM pretty devotedly for a while.

[1797] Right.

[1798] It works too, right?

[1799] It worked and then I stopped.

[1800] Like working out.

[1801] It worked and I stop and then every time you do it, you're like, I should do this all the time.

[1802] But no, I haven't cracked it yet.

[1803] I haven't given myself or had imposed on me the discipline.

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] That would, I think, that I'm hoping to now.

[1806] Because you're an overachiever.

[1807] You have to approach, I'd imagine.

[1808] You guys are like kind of similar.

[1809] we're reading these things where it's like how to get through to Monica's like put it on her calendar was her sign yeah yeah my Virgo what sign are you we don't believe in signs we don't believe in them either but we're newly interested but if we did yeah yeah yeah yeah but they're surprisingly accurate Leo okay it would be interesting to see you go after friendship love all those things as if it were a I know a script that you had to that is maybe Life -changing advice.

[1810] Because, yeah, if it's a script, I'm like, all right, I'm two weeks to outline, four weeks first draft.

[1811] It sucks, but I'm just going to do this.

[1812] Yeah, it sucks.

[1813] I'm going to do it.

[1814] And I don't do that friendship, love, it's sort of like, it happens when it happens, or I'll do a little of this, a little that, or yeah, absolutely.

[1815] And then I'm nowhere.

[1816] Yeah, you need to be like, I go on one day to a week.

[1817] I know people who have done that.

[1818] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1819] But it's so different because you have so much control over a creative thing.

[1820] And you have no, it's so vulnerable to be going on a. date every week or putting a lot of effort into that realm because it's scary.

[1821] They may not like you back or they, you know, whatever.

[1822] But also there's no external structure to it.

[1823] There's no, like when I'm looking for a director for my show or a showrunner or whatever, like you're nervous.

[1824] You meet a lot of people.

[1825] Some don't work out.

[1826] Some you're not sure about.

[1827] But you have to choose one.

[1828] And you do.

[1829] Yeah.

[1830] And then you live with it.

[1831] And you live with it.

[1832] And it's probably good.

[1833] Maybe you regret.

[1834] Whatever.

[1835] but you did it and there is no clock on love that way that's true you know or friendship unless you decide it is but even if you do then you know you can get out of it out of your own deadline you made yeah that's why we have our friend jess and i we have this other show called monica and jess love boys and it's basically that it was that it was like okay we have goals every week that we have to meet for this program and they gave each other challenges which was fun so so jess was like you have to sex with someone this week.

[1836] You got to figure that out.

[1837] That was one of my challenges.

[1838] That's amazing.

[1839] And she got it done.

[1840] Is this podcast out?

[1841] Yeah, the first season came out and then we're going to do a second season as well.

[1842] But yeah, it really put it in those terms.

[1843] Dear professor.

[1844] Exactly.

[1845] But it was homework.

[1846] It became homework.

[1847] And I'm a straight -day student.

[1848] I'm going to do it.

[1849] I haven't heard from you in 10 years, but I just want to say.

[1850] Oh, I've looked him up so many times.

[1851] I'm trying to locate him and I can't.

[1852] Do you think you have an idea of who you, would love to be with like do you have a type i have a type and every time i've actually fallen in love it's been completely different from my type isn't that something so i think that you need to be to really fall in love yeah you need to be completely overwhelmed by what makes someone else them yeah i think i too like in between brie who was with for nine years and christin i actually had the wherewithal to say like hey how about date someone that's not like you it's kind of it's a thing in a which is contrary action.

[1853] You just do basically the opposite of whatever you want to do and just see what happens for a while.

[1854] And inevitably, you're not in any of the patterns you used to be because you're not choosing the same.

[1855] You're almost choosing in opposition to whatever you'd want to do.

[1856] Yeah.

[1857] No, A .A. sounds very appealing to me. I don't have an exact addiction, although I have very compulsive patterns.

[1858] Yeah, yeah.

[1859] But the people that have benefited from it, that is exactly the structure that sounds to me. I don't know.

[1860] You do.

[1861] I don't know.

[1862] Are you guys going to go on a date?

[1863] You can apply for season two of Monica and Jen.

[1864] Great.

[1865] Would you be open to being on a reality podcast in order to date, Monica?

[1866] Season two is complicated.

[1867] I think that's great.

[1868] Yeah, we put out applications for people to apply.

[1869] You have to live in California.

[1870] We'll definitely complicate the coming to America remake.

[1871] Yeah.

[1872] Well, look, it's been like 10 years.

[1873] I don't think she's, I don't think she's interested.

[1874] Also, they did a remake.

[1875] I know.

[1876] That's true.

[1877] Since then, there has now been a remake of it.

[1878] That's right.

[1879] Do you know that?

[1880] Well, it's a sequel.

[1881] A sequel, thank you.

[1882] That's not fair to call it a remake.

[1883] It's a sequel, yeah.

[1884] That was my mom's favorite movie coming to America It's an incredible movie But now don't you think like it's scary to do that movie Like will we get Would everyone get canceled?

[1885] I don't know like it seems How do you tow the line?

[1886] I don't know Well okay let's talk about the premise Which we haven't talked much about Because this is ding ding ding ding You're doing that You're taking all these kind of hot button divisive topics and you're kind of figuring out a backdoor into talking about them.

[1887] Was that a fair assessment?

[1888] Like a fun, like let's just do it.

[1889] Like the first episode of the series is about a black guy who's being accused of assaulting police officers.

[1890] And then, so that's every day in the news, right?

[1891] So you take that thing that we're all very well aware of.

[1892] And then you add in that the person's going to get exonerated because there's actually footage that he didn't attack the cops, but the footage is during a fucking scene.

[1893] And out the window, you can just see in the corner of the frame.

[1894] It's on a white guy's sex tape.

[1895] Like a guy who's like the most super BLM Instagram poster, but in the back of a sex tape is this thing.

[1896] Oh, my God.

[1897] So now what does he do?

[1898] Now what does he do?

[1899] Oh, that's great.

[1900] And now, like, his expressed support of this movement is put up directly against his fear and vanity of being in a courtroom watching himself.

[1901] Fuck.

[1902] Right.

[1903] Embarrassingly.

[1904] Oh, that's really funny.

[1905] I love stuff like that.

[1906] I love comedy that is actually about what is on people's minds.

[1907] And I feel like a lot of it is either escapist or like preachy.

[1908] Yes.

[1909] Yes, yes, yes.

[1910] I did want to experiment with doing something that was just stories.

[1911] Yeah.

[1912] Did it make the network nervous?

[1913] Yep.

[1914] It did.

[1915] Yep.

[1916] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1917] Yes, it did.

[1918] But I think that as long as you get past that, I don't think real people are very sensitive at all.

[1919] Everyone's worried on behalf of everybody.

[1920] You know, like what you just said, well, I get canceled, will we get canceled?

[1921] I don't know that if anyone cancels you, it's on behalf of someone that they think would want to.

[1922] People are not that sensitive.

[1923] People get the joke.

[1924] They'll talk about anything.

[1925] If they're offended, they'll say, I'm offended.

[1926] Yeah.

[1927] And that's not the end of the world either, but it's the people in between that are so scared, you know, about what gets to it.

[1928] But I've never had any trouble with an audience directly occasionally.

[1929] I didn't like that joke.

[1930] I was offended.

[1931] Okay.

[1932] Well, now I feel terrible because I'm.

[1933] the opposite of what I wanted to do.

[1934] But when someone in the middle tells you, this won't fly, that's when I'm skeptical.

[1935] Well, we talk about race quite a bit on this show and certainly the vast majority, like 99 % of any negative comments I've ever received have been from white people.

[1936] Yeah.

[1937] And then those are tricky for me because it's very easy for me to write that off.

[1938] I'm like, if a black dude tells me that, yeah, I'm going to rethink this.

[1939] But if you tell me it, I'm not going to rethink it.

[1940] Like, I don't really trust your barometer or more.

[1941] That's more condescending to me. someone on behalf this isn't right to say now that said it's fucking terrifying to think not only of the consequences to you sure but it's terrifying to me to think of hurting someone's feelings out of my own fucking ignorance yeah and selfishness of i think this is funny yeah and so yeah i'm scared of that but i'm also skeptical of the people who tell me that i'd rather actually run it by people that i trust there's also a little voice in my head that's a little bit like okay so you and i recognize we wouldn't enjoy being on a roast.

[1942] So guess what?

[1943] We don't go on a roast.

[1944] Right.

[1945] Like there seems to be zero awareness of what someone has an appetite for and they just find themselves in all these situations where they're being offended all the time.

[1946] There's a little bit of that that lacks some responsibility, I think.

[1947] Like someone went to a friend's improv show and in their improv set someone was pregnant and then they delivered on stage and then afterwards people came up to them, how dare you do that?

[1948] Katie had a miscarriage last month and she's been dealing with it's like I can't account for 2 ,000 people in an audience that someone might have had a miscarriage if you had a miscarriage maybe a live comedy show is not for you yet or maybe someone else was like oh my god I can laugh about this tragedy yes that's another great point so man it is such a complicated situation and I don't know that comedies ever worked under this new kind of scrutiny well I have a galaxy brain approach to it which is that censorship has always existed and whether it's Soviets or the social moors of today on Twitter and people have always found a way to get their thing across.

[1949] And that's just part of the challenge.

[1950] And maybe pure freedom isn't for us, isn't for writers.

[1951] I mean, you know, it's like, oh, if you read between the lines, Shakespeare is really criticizing the monarchy, oh, whatever.

[1952] They're criticizing the government, but they can't let it.

[1953] They'll go or the gulag, if they admit that this isn't just a parallel or whatever, or network TV on the office.

[1954] It was on NBC.

[1955] You can't swear.

[1956] Right.

[1957] You can't say certain things, but you express yourself anyway.

[1958] So even though it's always the enemy and that it's always the obstacle, it's also always there.

[1959] There's always some gatekeeper that won't let you say exactly what you want to say.

[1960] And part of the art is finding a way to do it.

[1961] That's a really, really great point.

[1962] Or the office, it was 20 minutes, 30 seconds every episode.

[1963] Not 31 seconds.

[1964] Uh -huh.

[1965] Not 24 minutes.

[1966] It was to the second.

[1967] Yeah.

[1968] We had to cut it down.

[1969] And it sucked, but we did it.

[1970] Yeah.

[1971] And, okay.

[1972] You know, that was a box.

[1973] It was interesting.

[1974] I don't ever want that box again.

[1975] Right, right.

[1976] But, you know, that box is good.

[1977] Yeah.

[1978] Or it was good for that show.

[1979] It's crazy.

[1980] Maybe the limits would make us better.

[1981] Yeah.

[1982] So you have constructed this.

[1983] incredible track record and you have a lot of options.

[1984] Well, see, this is now on a personal level.

[1985] I'm suffering from the same thing I just said.

[1986] I can write a kid's book.

[1987] I can do this.

[1988] So what the fuck do I do?

[1989] Yes.

[1990] And who am I with?

[1991] And so then you find yourself afloat.

[1992] So yeah, I do all the time.

[1993] The grass that is greener to me is like, oh, this person took an overall deal at NBC.

[1994] They deliver four series, like, et cetera.

[1995] They know where they're going to work and look at all they accomplished.

[1996] So yeah, so I have this career that has all of this freedom and I love it and you don't want to give, like who willingly gives up their freedom?

[1997] I guess in AA.

[1998] I guess sometimes you submit to a system, a power, etc. Yes.

[1999] And that is what's hard to do for me when I have this freedom creatively, personally, and then I find myself drift or uncertain.

[2000] Are you someone that is good at asking for help or mentorship or advice?

[2001] There's a line I wrote for myself on the office, which is lead me when I'm in the mood.

[2002] to be led, which is like, that's my paradox, you know.

[2003] I'm like, lead me, and they're like, go down here.

[2004] I'm like, how about there instead?

[2005] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2006] So you don't reach out much to people.

[2007] Oh, I do, I do.

[2008] And I'm not that big a mess either, but like, you know.

[2009] I have a very hard time asking for advice because I'd be acknowledging that I was faking it.

[2010] Oh, I ask for advice too much.

[2011] I ask everyone for advice, but then I don't, I'm like, cool, I'll take it all under advisement.

[2012] You know, then I don't, I'm not committed to any.

[2013] Who in your life do you admire and trust when that?

[2014] they advise you on something.

[2015] Mindy, my brothers.

[2016] I dated someone who gave great advice.

[2017] And then after we broke up, I'm like, damn it.

[2018] You know what I mean?

[2019] Like that's a thing.

[2020] Yeah.

[2021] So I wonder what she thinks.

[2022] That's one of the great things that Kristen adds to my life is I come at this, I'll lay out a problem for her.

[2023] Like, this guy did this and this guy did this.

[2024] So I'm writing this email, this guy told him the fuck off.

[2025] And then I'm going to tell this person.

[2026] He's like, what if that person blank?

[2027] And how do you know they don't feel scared too?

[2028] And then I'm like, oh, right.

[2029] Yeah, everyone's scared.

[2030] Let's start there.

[2031] Everyone's terrified.

[2032] And what are your hobbies?

[2033] That's the thing.

[2034] I don't know.

[2035] I just think all the time.

[2036] And I'm just thinking about my writing and my life and myself and all of that is the same thing.

[2037] Right?

[2038] So I'm just thinking all the time.

[2039] And I'm reading, but everything I read, I'm like, oh, could I use this?

[2040] And everything I watch, I'm like, oh, should I cast that person?

[2041] You know, so like I don't have an escape.

[2042] And I used to smoke weed.

[2043] And that was the one time when I would like just watch.

[2044] Watch fucking Looney Tunes because it was gorgeous and funny.

[2045] So that kind of thing, getting stoned.

[2046] Did you stop?

[2047] Getting stoned?

[2048] I stopped.

[2049] Why?

[2050] I guess when people say paranoid, I was always like, well, I don't think anyone was coming to get me. But I would be paranoid that I was making these horrible mistakes in my life.

[2051] And I guess that is paranoid.

[2052] I would get anxious and spiral.

[2053] And it went from like being 10 % of the time to 20 % to like 50%.

[2054] And it's like it's not worth it.

[2055] It's not worth rolling the dice on that, which is too bad.

[2056] That's a bummer.

[2057] Yeah, because I really did love it.

[2058] And it was very good for me. I think for a lot of folks that have a real busy racket upstairs, it's very helpful.

[2059] Yeah, but it's funny to say drugs.

[2060] Drugs was my hobby, you know, in terms of smoking weed, you know, or going in nature or whatever.

[2061] Do you camp and snow?

[2062] No. See, that's why I look at you in your military pants and your athletic build.

[2063] And I'm like, this is, that's what I can't be.

[2064] you dirt bike and stuff, you know what I mean?

[2065] Yeah, but then you'd have to take on all the stuff that makes me do this stuff.

[2066] I would.

[2067] I need something.

[2068] Yeah, you wouldn't have the dad that, you know, you asked for advice, you know.

[2069] I'd have kids, yeah.

[2070] Well, you might have some kids.

[2071] Okay, you're right.

[2072] I'm still chasing you.

[2073] Oh, my God.

[2074] Well, wait until we do this buddy pick together.

[2075] I think it could be cathartic for both of us.

[2076] I honestly think we are a great combo.

[2077] I do, too.

[2078] It's pretty opposite.

[2079] What do you think, Monica?

[2080] Yes.

[2081] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2082] But what's funny is it's like it's opposite and not at all.

[2083] That's the whole magic of a buddy.

[2084] It is, too.

[2085] And it's like, yeah, in a way, they're on a wavelength.

[2086] That might be the magic of a body switching comedy where they both realize they like who they were.

[2087] Like, what?

[2088] Why is that such genre, body switching?

[2089] I know.

[2090] It's so preposterous.

[2091] It's so preposterous, but it's just like, yeah, should we do a body switch?

[2092] I agree.

[2093] That's never happened to anybody.

[2094] Because it's never happened and you always wonder what it would be like to.

[2095] being somebody else's skin.

[2096] But it's a huge, huge leap.

[2097] So you go to the studio and you go, so here's the thing.

[2098] Meet Mike.

[2099] He's a nerd.

[2100] Meet John.

[2101] He's a hillbilly.

[2102] They're going to switch bodies.

[2103] Can you imagine?

[2104] You start thinking about how crazy that'll be.

[2105] But if you went in and go like, Meet Mike, his index finger can make anything in the world.

[2106] So that's his power he's got.

[2107] And then meet John, he can hold his breath forever.

[2108] That's the moving.

[2109] You'd be like, no. That's crazy.

[2110] Could they switch bodies?

[2111] Exactly.

[2112] Could you put the guy with the - It's so hard there to keep track in it.

[2113] body switch movie of who's who they got to come up with a better device they need to label you like dave as mike right right right this is really ben stiller yes my idea for body switching comedy was the lowest stakes body switching comedy of all time i wanted to pitch it where i would play identical twins but one has a birthmark and so the one's getting ready in the morning he sees his brother's birthmark on his hip and he's like oh that like moment in everybody switching comedy when he realizes he's his brother and it's just that mole that no one will see and even though they're identical twins one's a surgeon and one's a pilot but each other has to go to work for one another in case someone sees that birthmark.

[2114] That's great.

[2115] Like the stupidest lowest states and they're still panic the whole time and it doesn't occur to them they can just continue on.

[2116] I would get that.

[2117] I'm your audience.

[2118] Oh wow.

[2119] You're the one you're buying the pitch.

[2120] Yeah.

[2121] Oh my gosh.

[2122] Yeah.

[2123] Well no I'm like I don't think anyone else would get it.

[2124] No one would get it.

[2125] You're totally speaking to BJ.

[2126] You're totally speaking.

[2127] speaking to me. Because I got to be honest, that really got motivated out of Ryan Reynolds and Bateman doing one.

[2128] I'm like, I don't know.

[2129] Both guys are gorgeous.

[2130] I know.

[2131] That's what I thought too.

[2132] That exact movie.

[2133] I'm like, I'm not panicking if I wake up as either of those guys.

[2134] Yeah.

[2135] Yeah.

[2136] Yeah.

[2137] I'm like, Jason Bateman.

[2138] I'm like, fuck yeah.

[2139] That's cool too.

[2140] Yeah.

[2141] The snarkiest guy I ever live.

[2142] And then you're Ryan Reynolds and you're like, I'm a beast.

[2143] Look at this.

[2144] Yeah.

[2145] Yeah.

[2146] No one's bombed.

[2147] Yeah.

[2148] Okay.

[2149] So I was, I feel like I was in the exact same position you found yourself in those five years i had that same thing and i started going to therapy it's so weird i've been i've been trying to think of a way to bring this up to monica and i'm just afraid to we're going to do it now we're going to do it live real time this has been historic oh my god every relationship's up for grabs in this this interview like who knows where this will land will everyone walk out his friends i saw this therapist and thank god he said this to me he said are you of service to anybody and i said what does that mean like go to a soup kitchen or something And he said, look, I don't care what you do.

[2150] But I do know helping other people makes people feel good.

[2151] Forget it.

[2152] You can do it selfishly.

[2153] I'm like, but I don't want to go to a soup kitchen.

[2154] He's like, what are you interested in?

[2155] I'm like cars.

[2156] And he's like, do you like all equipment?

[2157] Like, do you like military equipment?

[2158] I'm like, oh, I love military equipment.

[2159] He goes, why don't you do a USO tour?

[2160] Like, then you could do something you want.

[2161] And I've said this before.

[2162] I went totally selfishly.

[2163] I'm like, I want to go to Afghanistan.

[2164] I want to see all this stuff.

[2165] And then lo and behold, I was there.

[2166] and I'm meeting real human beings who have fucking dedicated their lives to be in this miserable situation.

[2167] They're happy to see me and they can't believe I was thinking about them.

[2168] And the whole thing I come home and for seven weeks I was happy, I was like, A, I had perspective on what I'm not living in.

[2169] B, all these people were really grateful that we were there.

[2170] And I was like, I'm so glad that that therapist recommended that.

[2171] And now once you have kids, kids are just service.

[2172] And so you're so fucking distracted by dealing with all the shit that it does cut down on the time you can obsess about yourself.

[2173] Yeah.

[2174] And I just, every time I have something that distracts me from that, I feel happier.

[2175] So anyways, I was saying to Monica, because you don't have any pets or children yet, then I wonder if you found something you love that you also could be of service if it would improve your life.

[2176] Are you offended by that observation?

[2177] I feel offended.

[2178] Yeah, yeah.

[2179] But I don't know for sure if I just haven't processed it yet.

[2180] It was something that was recommended to me that ended up feeling really.

[2181] good.

[2182] And you still do it?

[2183] Or you have kids now.

[2184] Well, I have kids and then I also am in AA.

[2185] So I have to talk to dudes all the time that I would probably pick not to.

[2186] I have to engage in their problems.

[2187] This show, I have to sit down and like listen to you and connect with you and really want to know about you.

[2188] And while I'm doing that, I can't think about what car I need, which is what I'll think about all day.

[2189] That I'm here.

[2190] Yeah.

[2191] Yeah, you're getting that from this as well.

[2192] Yeah.

[2193] Yeah.

[2194] But you don't have a pet.

[2195] You don't have kids.

[2196] No. No thank you to a pet.

[2197] Same.

[2198] No pets.

[2199] No. There was a dog sitting next to me on my airplane yesterday, and I was not happy about that.

[2200] And then, of course, I spiraled and I was like, what if I was allergic?

[2201] Like, why are they allowed to do this?

[2202] I love animals in the wild.

[2203] Sure.

[2204] I love, you know.

[2205] It was different.

[2206] Domestic pets.

[2207] It's a totally different thing.

[2208] Yeah.

[2209] We had a big, big debrief about that because I agreed with Monica.

[2210] I'm kind of like, I get it.

[2211] You have anxiety, and you can't fly without this dog.

[2212] and I'm very sympathetic to that.

[2213] But what's also weird is I'm allergic to dog.

[2214] So if you fly with your dog, I'm in an asthma attack that whole flight.

[2215] So now I can't fly or rather if there's a dog on the flight, I would choose not to fly.

[2216] So I understand we're helping you, but it also might take someone else out.

[2217] That's kind of interesting that that's how the policy.

[2218] Like the whole cabin could be allergic to the dog.

[2219] Everyone could be miserable.

[2220] It's just assuming like if you don't like animals, you're a bad person.

[2221] So you can't really say that.

[2222] You can't say that.

[2223] And my brother isn't a dog person either.

[2224] And he quickly says, but I love babies.

[2225] Oh, to like balance it out.

[2226] Because I do love babies.

[2227] Yeah.

[2228] Okay.

[2229] That's a good caveat.

[2230] Well, Monica made the best point.

[2231] She's like, I'm very grateful that it's making your anxiety lower that you have your dog with you.

[2232] But it's making mine super high because I'm afraid of dogs.

[2233] Well, I just don't know what's going to happen.

[2234] I'm sitting next to my feet.

[2235] I hope he doesn't hear this the man. He was really nice.

[2236] And the dog was actually really.

[2237] good so by the end I was like it was fine but I was anxious it was making me anxious but we did ultimately decide we're just one documentary away from thinking it's fine like we know I can see the documentary that would show me the individual case of someone who's just paralyzed with anxiety and can't go see their mother and then they find this beautiful little dog and it makes them so happy and feel so confident then they get on the airplane in the documentary and they give the documentary the thumbs up I think it's a feature I think this is an Owen Wilson movie this feels like a hit It's a huge hit.

[2238] So I imagine seeing that movie and then going, I don't care if I have an asthma attack.

[2239] What do I care?

[2240] Look at everyone's like this.

[2241] My anxiety doesn't matter compared to this person's anxiety.

[2242] He gave a thumbs up.

[2243] He's going to see his mom.

[2244] He's got his chow chow on his lap.

[2245] I got to get over it.

[2246] So I do know I'm one documentary away from accepting it.

[2247] I think I got our buddy comedy.

[2248] I think it's like midnight run.

[2249] I think you're De Niro.

[2250] I'm groan.

[2251] Okay.

[2252] We got to get across the country.

[2253] Uh -huh.

[2254] Yeah.

[2255] And you have your companion dog.

[2256] Yeah.

[2257] And I am deeply allergic to the dog.

[2258] And yet I have to get you to New York from Louisiana.

[2259] I knew we'd get there.

[2260] Yeah, we got it.

[2261] We got everything.

[2262] Good job.

[2263] Okay, BJ, the premise is on Hulu.

[2264] It's called FX on Hulu.

[2265] Oh my God, okay.

[2266] It's confusing.

[2267] It is.

[2268] I want everyone to watch it.

[2269] I watch it today.

[2270] Love it.

[2271] Great fucking cast.

[2272] Ben Platt.

[2273] We love.

[2274] By the way, awesome butt cheeks.

[2275] No one asked me to evaluate him.

[2276] But we see his butt cheeks quite a bit.

[2277] and they're phenomenal.

[2278] That's why I cast him.

[2279] I'm not surprised.

[2280] I'm not surprised at all.

[2281] They're beautiful.

[2282] I can't wait for you to see him.

[2283] Okay.

[2284] Well, BJ, I can say this on record that for the rest of my life when I meet people, if anyone brings up BJ, do you know BJ?

[2285] I'm going to go, yeah, yeah, I interviewed him, and I love him.

[2286] He's such a nice guy, and I can tell what a sweet person he is, and I think we wrestle with all the same insecurities.

[2287] Yeah.

[2288] And when you meet each other in heaven, you'll be happy to see each other.

[2289] I know.

[2290] get there first.

[2291] Do they have buddy comedies in heaven, I wonder?

[2292] Oh, wow.

[2293] What are the conflicts in heaven?

[2294] Great question.

[2295] Yeah, there's no conflict.

[2296] So there's no comedy in heaven.

[2297] Yeah, they only serve eggs Benedict till 11.

[2298] We got to get there.

[2299] In heaven?

[2300] Fuck this place.

[2301] I'm going to hell.

[2302] That reminds me of one of my favorite jokes.

[2303] Guy goes to hell.

[2304] He's being greeted by one of the ambassadors for hell.

[2305] And he says, welcome.

[2306] It's Monday.

[2307] So tonight we have open bars.

[2308] our Monday's open bar night.

[2309] We have Mai Ties, we have Jack and Cokes, anything you like.

[2310] Do you like to drink?

[2311] And the guy goes, oh, yeah, yeah, I really like to drink.

[2312] He goes, oh, my God, you're going to love it.

[2313] That Mondays.

[2314] It was a Tuesday is casino night.

[2315] So we got Pye Got Poker, we got Blackjack, we got everything.

[2316] It's so fun.

[2317] Do you like to gamble?

[2318] Yeah, I kind of do like to gamble.

[2319] Oh, my God, you're going to love Tuesdays.

[2320] Do you like gay sex?

[2321] No, you're going to hate Wednesday.

[2322] It's more just the delivery of you're going to hate.

[2323] I don't love the homophobic nature of the joke.

[2324] But I do love you're going to hate Wednesdays as a deliverer.

[2325] I love a punchline like that that can be its own shorthand.

[2326] Yes.

[2327] You can say you're going to hate Wednesdays if you know the joke.

[2328] For the rest of your life.

[2329] Yeah.

[2330] All right.

[2331] Well, BJ, I'm so glad you came.

[2332] I'm so glad on my mind for a long time.

[2333] And I feel really good about everything.

[2334] And I really regret thinking I didn't like you because I thought you didn't like me. I enjoyed.

[2335] I was fueled by my playful angry jealousy towards you.

[2336] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2337] But it was admiration.

[2338] That's the lesson for everybody.

[2339] I love you.

[2340] This was so fun.

[2341] This is great.

[2342] Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[2343] Thank you.

[2344] I really wanted to.

[2345] Thanks, Rob.

[2346] The premise.

[2347] And then the movie that Cochers in.

[2348] What's the name of that?

[2349] Vengeance.

[2350] Vengeance.

[2351] I'm very looking forward to that.

[2352] I think you'll like that.

[2353] Okay, for real.

[2354] Thanks so much for coming.

[2355] Thanks for giving us so much time.

[2356] Yeah.

[2357] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[2358] B .J. Novak.

[2359] Wow, what an experience.

[2360] I for about five days felt bad afterwards.

[2361] Yeah.

[2362] I mean, I thought it was a great episode.

[2363] Me too.

[2364] He was really wonderful.

[2365] And he's opposite of what I thought he was, which was a fun, real -time discovery.

[2366] I regret that I misread who he was and that I believe these stories I had been told.

[2367] I do.

[2368] And he said it on here, like, so much of it is physical.

[2369] There's, like, just this physical presence that people can't control.

[2370] It's just fascinating how your appearance makes it different.

[2371] A lot of people thought I was a dumbass for a decade because I had played 10 dumbasses in a row.

[2372] Yeah.

[2373] And I'm not mad about, like, I'm like, I can understand why you would think that.

[2374] I played Frito and then I'm Carl Loomis.

[2375] Yeah.

[2376] I'm a bunch of dumbasses.

[2377] Totally.

[2378] I was very surprised when I met you who you were.

[2379] Oh, really?

[2380] Yeah.

[2381] You primarily just knew me as Crosby?

[2382] Punked.

[2383] Okay, yeah, yeah.

[2384] Yeah, so there's an example that I was associated with a show that is mean -spirited in some way.

[2385] Oh, that's true.

[2386] Who is he?

[2387] Right.

[2388] So initially, you know, I didn't like that association that people thought I was someone who likes to fuck with people because I actually, that's not me. You've been friends with me for eight years and I don't do pranks on people.

[2389] I don't fuck with anyone.

[2390] No. Yeah.

[2391] I don't think I thought you were like mean or at all.

[2392] But I did think, yeah, maybe it was just your characters in general.

[2393] I don't know.

[2394] I was just really surprised how smart you were.

[2395] Right.

[2396] I think it's really, really a common.

[2397] Yeah, except now.

[2398] Now everyone, yeah, now we circle back around.

[2399] Yeah, now I'm dumber than.

[2400] No, now people know.

[2401] Well, that listen to the show, sure.

[2402] Yeah, but it's part of your whole, like, you know, you're on talk shows.

[2403] Your persona, I think, has changed over time, don't you?

[2404] I do think it has changed.

[2405] Don't you think parenthood was probably the turning point for you of like, oh, people, like, think I'm charming and nice and, or I don't know.

[2406] Yeah, yeah.

[2407] Well, I felt like they didn't think I was a white trash idiot, which is mostly what I played prior to then.

[2408] Yeah.

[2409] Yeah, well, I will, though, I will credit, I'll credit the freebie for being the turning point for me. The freebie is the first thing I started playing myself in.

[2410] Yeah, but not that many people saw that, right?

[2411] At first.

[2412] Me, you, and the director, yeah.

[2413] Katie, Katie, myself, and you.

[2414] Yeah.

[2415] I think some of the cast didn't even see it.

[2416] It's a good movie.

[2417] I like it.

[2418] It was fine.

[2419] We went to Sundance, and I had never done that.

[2420] And then we went to South by Southwest.

[2421] It was wonderful.

[2422] I loved being like, yeah, that was a pool.

[2423] I had never been invited to swim in.

[2424] And I had played such shit.

[2425] In fact, Mark and Jay Duplas, I had requested a meeting with them.

[2426] And for people to know Mark and Jay Deplas, they produced the freebie.

[2427] His wife, Kate, Mark's wife, Katie, directed it and was the star of it.

[2428] I had requested a meeting with them after seeing the puffy chair.

[2429] They took the meeting because they're nice guys.

[2430] We went to Cafe 101.

[2431] We had a fucking blast.

[2432] Yeah.

[2433] We started hanging out and everything.

[2434] They still were never going to hire me. Then all of a sudden, Mark happened to see Let's Go to Prison, where I play kind of serious in it or something.

[2435] Yeah.

[2436] And then months later, he just called and said, hey, can you do this thing?

[2437] Yeah.

[2438] Like in two days, the other actor fell out.

[2439] Oh, wow.

[2440] And I was like, sure.

[2441] And then I ended up going to Sundance and all that song.

[2442] So ding, ding, I'm watching the morning show right now, which Mark is in.

[2443] And Katie's in.

[2444] Oh, she is?

[2445] They play.

[2446] Sex partners?

[2447] Yeah.

[2448] Oh, good.

[2449] Yeah.

[2450] Yeah, he plays his girlfriend.

[2451] Oh, wow.

[2452] I guess it's just, it's funny with actors specifically because you can easily just not know.

[2453] Well, what about that poor, poor kid who played King Joffrey?

[2454] Yeah, exactly.

[2455] He quit acting, I heard.

[2456] Yeah.

[2457] Because people just thought he was an evil shit.

[2458] Is that why?

[2459] Yeah, he couldn't stand how people saw him in real life.

[2460] Because, of course, if they know him, they know him as the worst human to ever live.

[2461] But then what I would think is he would then try to do a role that countered that.

[2462] But no one's going to hire for that.

[2463] Yeah.

[2464] He's great at playing a little shit.

[2465] And I'm great at playing a white trash.

[2466] Yeah.

[2467] Actually, that's funny.

[2468] The only fact I have that I wrote down is, is we talk a lot about punked, obviously, in the episode.

[2469] And I realize I don't know something, which is surprising me. I feel like I know everything about you.

[2470] But why did you leave punked?

[2471] Because that was famous.

[2472] Oh, they, oh, everyone would know.

[2473] Yeah, so, and especially the demographic we were going after.

[2474] I don't think most hoity actors were watching punked.

[2475] But we didn't punk hoity actors.

[2476] We did pop stars and athletes and people who watched punk.

[2477] Yeah.

[2478] Yeah.

[2479] So you had to leave because you would, you'd ruin the prank.

[2480] In fact, so we had filmed them all before they aired.

[2481] but they started airing, and we still owed one.

[2482] And that's when I did this football golf one I've talked a bunch about.

[2483] In fact, it came up in this episode.

[2484] That was the one I wouldn't cooperate.

[2485] Uh -huh.

[2486] And I was wearing a wig, and I had a growing a mustache and dyed it.

[2487] And when I pulled my wig off, like Jerome Bettis knew immediately who I was.

[2488] So, like, they did know once I got out of the garb.

[2489] Yeah.

[2490] But I was so happy that I couldn't do another.

[2491] season because I was making like $1 ,800 an episode.

[2492] Right.

[2493] And it took weeks to film an episode.

[2494] So everyone there was making much more money than I was.

[2495] I couldn't live on it.

[2496] Yeah.

[2497] And I was starting to get incredible opportunities.

[2498] Like without a paddle, that was probably five months after it aired I got that role.

[2499] All that makes sense.

[2500] Because I was thinking about it and I was like, wow.

[2501] Like knowing you, you leaving a job seems especially your first one.

[2502] It seems very off -brand, but that makes sense.

[2503] You weren't really making any money, and logistically, it stopped making sense.

[2504] And I had this huge fear that, like, everyone I was hoping to ever work with, I was pissing off.

[2505] Totally.

[2506] But, I mean, also, you had a job, and you tried 10 years to get one, and you finally got one, and then the idea of leaving it.

[2507] Like, that's scary.

[2508] That's true.

[2509] But that makes more sense.

[2510] If you were making a lot more money, it might have been harder.

[2511] Oh, it would have been much harder.

[2512] But I think I told you, that same year, in my 10 years of auditioning for commercials, I booked three, an MTD lawnmower commercial, and then this AMPM industrial, for people who don't own industrials, it's a buyout.

[2513] There's really no money.

[2514] They're not going to air it on TV per se, and there's no residuals.

[2515] And it was for no money.

[2516] It was for AMPM gas station.

[2517] And I said, this is my lowest point ever professionally as an actor.

[2518] They've got like this whole interior of an AMPM set up inside this big blank white.

[2519] space and I'm walking down the line and I'm doing this and doing that and make a slurpee and the director is yelling out you know do this all right now grab a slurpy now okay now make a blue one blah and I'm doing everything okay and then I get to the hot dog machine I'll make a hot dog great make a hot dog so I make a hot dog I can do that all right now just start just stop blowing that hot dog like a harmonica and I go um play play the hot dog like a harmonica yeah just start getting into it and rock that rock that hot dog like it's a harmonica and I was like oh my god Oh, my God.

[2520] And you better believe I rock that hot dog.

[2521] I'm sure you did.

[2522] Oh, I've done it.

[2523] I've done so many things.

[2524] Oh, my God, so many things.

[2525] So then the third thing I had ever gotten was this Miller -Light commercial with a Vanderholyfield in it that ran virtually the same time that punk came out.

[2526] And I made twice as much on that commercial than I had made on a season of punk.

[2527] And in that Miller -Light commercial, they made ahead of you.

[2528] They did.

[2529] Like a prosthetic head because you get knocked out.

[2530] Well, he knocks my head off my shoulders in the commercial.

[2531] And so they made a prosthetic head And we now have that prosthetic head We've got we've gotten it back Yeah one of them I think there's a few Kristen's used it Speaking of prank punks She's used it many times to prank us She would have been a great host of that show She loves to prank people And she's so believable Even when she tells jokes None of us understand half the time Because she's acting so well Yeah so that was my fact Oh, it's just a curiosity.

[2532] Yeah.

[2533] Well, one other fact.

[2534] Is it ghost written or ghost wrote?

[2535] It's got to be ghost written.

[2536] I think so.

[2537] Yeah.

[2538] Like hanged.

[2539] Hung.

[2540] You can't hung.

[2541] No one was hung.

[2542] Everyone was hanged.

[2543] Do you know that?

[2544] What do you mean?

[2545] You can't say they hung them.

[2546] That's incorrect.

[2547] They hanged them.

[2548] Really?

[2549] Yes.

[2550] Isn't that bizarre?

[2551] I didn't know that.

[2552] Do you want to Google it to make sure?

[2553] No. Oh, okay.

[2554] But so you would.

[2555] didn't say they were hung.

[2556] I think you'd say they were hanged.

[2557] Really?

[2558] Yeah.

[2559] Wow.

[2560] Why?

[2561] I don't know.

[2562] I think you can say we hung a pitcher.

[2563] Right.

[2564] Well, you definitely can.

[2565] Yeah.

[2566] But I don't think when you're talking about hanging someone, it's hanged.

[2567] That's weird.

[2568] It is.

[2569] Well, you know what it was is like all these things.

[2570] I heard enough smart people say hang, but I was like, am I saying it wrong and looked it up?

[2571] Yeah.

[2572] That's how I know it.

[2573] Yeah.

[2574] We're back.

[2575] Oh, my God, yes.

[2576] We're back in Los Angeles after our long, long trip across the pond.

[2577] Yes.

[2578] In fact, we have to just say this because I want to post the picture as part of it, which is you took a shoulder ride because the girls were giving each other's shoulder rides.

[2579] I was giving the girl's shoulder rides.

[2580] And then I got you up there on the shoulders, which made you very scared.

[2581] Oh, yeah.

[2582] But your face did not betray your feelings, which is impressive.

[2583] Well, back to the acting.

[2584] I guess that was your hot dog harmonica moment.

[2585] I just got in character real quick.

[2586] Yeah, but you were pretty afraid up there?

[2587] Yeah, I got anxious up there.

[2588] Having nothing to do with you, it's always me. It's like, what if I pass out?

[2589] But it's so interesting of all the people that I know, I would pick you very less considering that you used to fly 25 feet near.

[2590] I did.

[2591] It's so bizarre to me that you're afraid to be on shoulders.

[2592] But I wouldn't do that now.

[2593] I wouldn't fly.

[2594] Ryan always wants to stunt.

[2595] Yeah.

[2596] And I always say, no, like, I'm not doing that anymore.

[2597] I'm retired.

[2598] I'm done.

[2599] I'm scared.

[2600] Well, what we should also say is that we're right now kind of basking in the glow.

[2601] We have a bit of rapture right now from having watched the Chappelle, the latest Chappelle.

[2602] The new special.

[2603] He's had his last one in a long time.

[2604] For a minute.

[2605] That makes me scared.

[2606] Mm -hmm.

[2607] It's incredible.

[2608] It's fucking incredible.

[2609] He's incredible.

[2610] He's so good.

[2611] He'll be remembered as like Mark Twain.

[2612] Yeah.

[2613] But not racist.

[2614] Yeah.

[2615] I don't know if Mark Twain was racist.

[2616] It seems that most of our historical figures were.

[2617] Of that time.

[2618] Yeah, exactly.

[2619] We're a little rough around the edges.

[2620] Yeah.

[2621] He's just a poet.

[2622] He takes you on a fucking ride.

[2623] He really does.

[2624] It's so special.

[2625] I don't watch many people's talents and have like deep, deep jealousy.

[2626] Yeah.

[2627] But he is who I, every time it triggers me, I just feel like, like, I feel like I should be smart enough to do something important in the box of comedy.

[2628] Yeah, I have the opposite feeling when I watch him.

[2629] I watch him and I think, oh, he's the only person who could ever do that.

[2630] I don't feel like, oh, I wish I could.

[2631] I'm like, yeah, I can't.

[2632] No one can.

[2633] And I'm just in like pure awe of it and gratitude that I get to hear it.

[2634] And again, kind of like the David Sedaris, what we were talking about.

[2635] You made the equivalency, and I think it's right.

[2636] Like, the way I feel is the same when I'm listening to Caderas and when I'm listening to Cappell.

[2637] I'm just in awe.

[2638] I know, and make no mistake, I'm not suggesting in any way that I could be as good as Chappelle.

[2639] That's not at all of what I'm thinking.

[2640] What I'm thinking is the format he's created, which is storytelling with profound observations within the box of comedy, I feel like I should be capable of.

[2641] saying when you watch it you say like I want to go work that out yes I want to go write something in and I don't know what it is but I I feel like I must write yes yes I feel so inspired but that's how I think I've told you this in the past most of the good short stories I've written are the ones I'm proudest of I've written immediately after reading like Catcher in the Rye like I've read it three times and all three times I sat down and wrote something I'm really proud of.

[2642] Like, it just makes me, it reminds me of what is the important element of writing?

[2643] Like, what is it, what is it that Salinger does that makes it so unique?

[2644] Yeah.

[2645] And I feel like I can isolate it and then like, oh, that's the thing I need to explore in my writing.

[2646] Yeah.

[2647] Mm -hmm.

[2648] Mm -mm -mm.

[2649] Okay, I realized at the end of the last fact check, I left a, like a cliffhanger?

[2650] Yeah.

[2651] Because I said that I had some thoughts on being American.

[2652] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2653] Oh, I'm glad you remembered this.

[2654] We were in London, we were in Paris for a little bit, and I felt very proud.

[2655] And it was weird.

[2656] I was like having the realization that it was happening and feeling very strange about it because I definitely do not consider myself like, America, fuck yeah, like at all, at all.

[2657] You're not jingoistic.

[2658] No. Right.

[2659] But especially in London, there's a large Indian population.

[2660] I feel like no one knew, like me walking around is not a giveaway that I'm American.

[2661] Not at all.

[2662] But then I would speak and then I would have this American accent.

[2663] I remember studying abroad in college and like people trying to like bring down their Americanness.

[2664] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[2665] They don't want to look like the dumb American.

[2666] Oh, it was a common thing to put Canadian flags on your backpack.

[2667] I was wearing a maple leaf shirt a ton while we were over there.

[2668] Yeah, but I have the opposite.

[2669] I'm happy to have my American accent kind of come out and be like, yeah, I'm from Los Angeles.

[2670] Like, I don't know.

[2671] I just felt really proud of it.

[2672] And especially now in this country, like we're all shitting on America so much, myself included.

[2673] It felt really good to be like, oh, wait, no, we're so lucky.

[2674] to be here.

[2675] Yeah.

[2676] I very much responded to that opening monologue that Jeff Daniels made in, was that great show on HBO or he was like a news anchor network.

[2677] Oh, yeah.

[2678] Not network.

[2679] No, fuck, I forget what it was called.

[2680] Something news.

[2681] And it was written by our favorite.

[2682] Aaron Sorkin.

[2683] And he makes this incredible speech kind of trying to topple the notion of American exceptionalism that America is the best country in the world.

[2684] They say, well, how are you measuring it?

[2685] Is it poverty?

[2686] Is it teen pregnancy?

[2687] Is it sick people without insurance?

[2688] Like, what do you want?

[2689] How do you want to compare?

[2690] So I'm critical of, I'm not a jingoist.

[2691] I not wave an American flag.

[2692] I don't think we're the greatest country to ever be.

[2693] But in ways, I think, we're the greatest country currently.

[2694] Because there are so many things I love about this country.

[2695] I love it so much.

[2696] The ability to be creative beyond any measure, there isn't a country where you are as encouraged.

[2697] Yeah.

[2698] to be creative and be a disruptor to a fault.

[2699] We're so outspoken.

[2700] We have a voice.

[2701] Everyone has a voice.

[2702] Opinion.

[2703] Well, not everyone.

[2704] I mean, there's weighted voices, let's be honest.

[2705] Of course.

[2706] But I fucking love this country.

[2707] Yeah.

[2708] But what pisses me off is like the people who think that wearing an American flag t -shirt is how they respect their country, to me is not enough.

[2709] It's lazy.

[2710] You respect this country by continuing to.

[2711] to try to make it deliver the promises that are in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

[2712] This is the fucking greatest country, but so much work to do, so many mistakes, so much bad history to acknowledge and to own.

[2713] Yeah.

[2714] You know, and it's the greatest.

[2715] Yeah.

[2716] I think people think liberals hate the country.

[2717] Yeah, I think maybe I felt that for a bit, like, like Americans, like including myself, but just being like, especially these past four years, just shaking.

[2718] our heads at this country.

[2719] And look, I mean, look, it's been a tough few years for us, I think.

[2720] But I was even just noting, like, everyone is so slow here.

[2721] Everyone is taking so long to do anything.

[2722] Do literally do anything.

[2723] Like, checkout takes an extra five minutes.

[2724] And also, who cares?

[2725] That's great.

[2726] They are not in a rush.

[2727] They need to be in a rush.

[2728] Exactly.

[2729] They're not wrong.

[2730] But I was realizing like, yeah, I like that pace.

[2731] I like feeling like you have to deliver for someone else.

[2732] I like that.

[2733] Me too.

[2734] Your average American has more entrepreneurial spirit than any other group's average number.

[2735] Yeah.

[2736] Even the elements of capitalism, which there's all these flaws, and I think we're looking for them a lot right now.

[2737] Yeah.

[2738] Well, because of income inequality.

[2739] Yeah, there's reasons to.

[2740] Yeah.

[2741] You realize black people.

[2742] People couldn't borrow money.

[2743] Oh, we've been holding some people out of capitalism.

[2744] Okay.

[2745] But then we meet this waiter.

[2746] We met this French waiter working in a London pub.

[2747] He was just talking about how mind -blowing it was for him to be in this exact same job in Brooklyn.

[2748] Yeah.

[2749] And making like four times as much money.

[2750] In loving the notion that he could be in charge of how much money he makes.

[2751] Like the autonomy of that.

[2752] And I was like, yeah, that's what's fucking awesome about this place.

[2753] It's like there is a route for you to prosper.

[2754] Yeah.

[2755] And I love all these other countries.

[2756] So if you're in another country, I love going there.

[2757] I love seeing culturally how different it is.

[2758] I will say this, man, those fucking Brits are so goddamn polite.

[2759] Yeah, I love traveling and I love going to all these places.

[2760] I'm so enamored by it.

[2761] And I think it's so fun and lovely.

[2762] And it made me feel grateful for a thing I take for granted.

[2763] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2764] And I was glad to have experienced that.

[2765] That makes me really happy.

[2766] It's a good place.

[2767] I'm really grateful.

[2768] Because on the jingoistic spectrum, I'm certainly further down the path than you, I think.

[2769] Yeah, and I mean, I think obviously part of it is because...

[2770] I'm white male.

[2771] Yeah.

[2772] Yeah, there's a great place to live for me. Yeah, and it's an incredible place for me as well.

[2773] But I forget sometimes.

[2774] I could have so easily, so easily, not been American.

[2775] I sometimes, like, I don't think I'm super patriotic, but then it'll flare up on me and I'll go, oh, my God, I am.

[2776] Yeah.

[2777] The example was we killed this Pakistani.

[2778] the S -IS, basically they're a CIA guy who had masterminded a couple different attacks.

[2779] Was it Pakistan or was it, it might have been Iran.

[2780] Okay.

[2781] And then they retaliated and blew up a base of ours.

[2782] Oh, yeah.

[2783] But suspiciously, we didn't have anyone in the base.

[2784] Like, there were really no casualties.

[2785] When we assassinated them, I was like, God damn it, why are we assassinating people?

[2786] Like, I don't like this.

[2787] This is not helping, like, we got to somehow make peace with all these people.

[2788] So I was really pissed about that.

[2789] But then when they blew up the base, all of a sudden I found myself going like, oh, you all want to get it on.

[2790] You really, you want to fucking blow up one of our bases.

[2791] Well, it's all said and done.

[2792] I was probably critical of what I thought was kind of a right wing strategy of assassinating the guy.

[2793] But then I was like, oh, right, no, we're just Americans.

[2794] If you blow up our base and it's on, I feel like this is my team.

[2795] Yeah.

[2796] Yeah.

[2797] In group, out group.

[2798] It's very.

[2799] It's tricky.

[2800] It's replicated.

[2801] Yeah, but it's an interesting thought.

[2802] And I think you don't really think it until you're out of it.

[2803] Like, it's so easy for us to be drowning and what's going on here.

[2804] Yeah.

[2805] And then you take a couple steps out.

[2806] Well, this kind of came up, too, with the Alicia Vikander episode, which was like pointing out the difference between Americans and Swedes and all these different people.

[2807] And I was like, yeah, I see it.

[2808] And I can see where that would be annoying.

[2809] Yeah.

[2810] But I love that we're fucking crazy, enthusiastic about all this shit.

[2811] I love that we're rubbed up and right.

[2812] You know, like, I like it.

[2813] I get it.

[2814] Yeah.

[2815] But if I have the choice, I want to live like a life turned to 11.

[2816] Yeah.

[2817] I love you.

[2818] I love you.

[2819] And B .J. Novak, man, what a pleasure.

[2820] And again, I said it then.

[2821] I'll say it again.

[2822] Like, it's just so embarrassed.

[2823] I had any opinion.

[2824] Because what a fucking sweetheart.

[2825] We all do.

[2826] We all have opinions.

[2827] That's the whole thing.

[2828] We're judging books by covers.

[2829] But that's what this show does.

[2830] Helps with that, I think.

[2831] I hope.

[2832] In this case, it did.

[2833] I love you.

[2834] I love him.

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