Kwame Onwuachi

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.

[1] I'm Dak Shepard, and, well, Mrs. Mouse is not with me today, but in spirit she is.

[2] Today we have world -renowned chef Kwame Unwachi.

[3] He is a James Beard winner, Food and Wine's Best New Chef of 2019 Winner, Esquire's 2019 North American Chef of the Year, and made Forbes 30 under 30.

[4] He is also the author of the critically acclaimed memoir notes from a young black chef about the intersection of race, fame, and food.

[5] Kwame can currently be seen as a judge on season 18 of Top Chef Thursdays on Bravo.

[6] You're going to love Kwame.

[7] I did.

[8] Please enjoy Kwame on Wachey.

[9] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[10] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[12] How you doing?

[13] Are you a spade master or a space master?

[14] What does that cup say?

[15] Take your pick.

[16] I think I'm both, but this one specifically says spades master.

[17] You know how to play spades?

[18] That's all I do.

[19] I bet I play 15 hours of spades a week.

[20] Do you play?

[21] No, I don't.

[22] That's where I get my black car revoked.

[23] I know how to play, but I need to be teached every time.

[24] not a good partner.

[25] Don't choose me to be a partner in Spades.

[26] That's what I tell people.

[27] I could play, but if you want to win, we cannot be partners.

[28] I really recommend give it another shot.

[29] So I'm white, so I played Uker.

[30] Have you heard of Uker?

[31] No. I think it's a Canadian game.

[32] It's kind of similar to Spades, but again, only like white northerners play it.

[33] But Spades is almost identical, but with like three more layers of strategy.

[34] So I'm so hooked.

[35] Oh, it's good.

[36] Yeah.

[37] I think you've got to have at least 10 white friends to know that game.

[38] I'm at the halfway point, so.

[39] Yeah, funny enough, it got introduced to our group because our good friend, Jess, works with almost only black folks, and they taught them, and he's been playing with them for like, I don't know, 10 years, and he brought it over.

[40] He was the messenger of it.

[41] Okay.

[42] Isn't it funny how games can be like that?

[43] It's obvious, but it is still funny that there are black and white games.

[44] It's kind of comical.

[45] All right.

[46] I think Uno is a black game.

[47] I've never seen a whipped outer with white people, so I need some answers right now.

[48] I think I would argue Uno's mostly a kid's game.

[49] No, so it's a black game.

[50] That answered my question.

[51] I feel like I'm in hot water now.

[52] But my kids play Uno, they love it, but I go mad because it's just luck.

[53] I hate any game that's just luck.

[54] Yeah, yeah, but most things are luck.

[55] most things are luck yeah they kind of are huh well yeah you need both right you need to like a be prepared and be a hard worker and then fuck you need a ton of luck too you do are you in dc i'm in l .a right now oh why aren't we together well i know why we're not together but we should be together we could be together just in the same room with different screens no one would have to fucking know that's true that's true i can come over right now i'll be there in a second where do you live Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[56] So do you live here?

[57] I have a place here and a place in New York.

[58] Okay, and no place in D .C. Mm -mm.

[59] That's where you've been working, though, for the last little stretch now?

[60] Six years, yeah.

[61] Okay, so you had a place there and then you've left for good.

[62] I want to say for good.

[63] Nothing is certain besides death.

[64] That's true.

[65] So I don't know for good, but for the foreseeable future.

[66] Okay.

[67] Like in tomorrow, I'm here.

[68] Today and tomorrow.

[69] We can count on you being here.

[70] At the very least, I'm here.

[71] So I want to say learning about you a little bit, and I do this to a fault, but I'm always starting with something I can relate with, which is I'm presuming single mom in the Bronx?

[72] Single mom, SM.

[73] Okay.

[74] No BD.

[75] You had a sister.

[76] Do you have more than that, or just two of you?

[77] I just have a sister, yeah.

[78] Okay.

[79] So my mom was single mom raising three kids, and she started a business out of our house.

[80] In Detroit, right?

[81] Yeah.

[82] Well, a hillbilly enclave.

[83] about 20 minutes outside of Detroit and full disclosure.

[84] Worked at General Motors?

[85] Yes, she worked at General Motors.

[86] Oh, look at this.

[87] This is so flattering.

[88] You did some research as well.

[89] The interviewer becomes the interviewee.

[90] That's kind of my move.

[91] You're stealing my move.

[92] But so mom running a business out of the house, it brought back so many memories.

[93] And I love that you say you were fully gainfully employed by her at five.

[94] Against the law.

[95] She's a criminal.

[96] But here's my question.

[97] So I have some baggage from that.

[98] Are you ready for it?

[99] Oh, yeah.

[100] We probably shared.

[101] It's shared luggage.

[102] Go ahead.

[103] My mom's my hero.

[104] With that said, she was really, really busy.

[105] And I'm just coming to terms with this because I've got a real devil side, right?

[106] I'm like a perfect son.

[107] And then I'm a fucking outlaw.

[108] Preach.

[109] But I think more and more now that I'm older and I'm married and I try to punish my wife sometimes, I think I was trying to punish my mom.

[110] I think I was sad that she was gone so much.

[111] and I didn't have her time, and I think I secretly was maybe punishing her.

[112] Yeah, if that's normally the case, that's where children act up in school.

[113] They're seeking attention.

[114] They're seeking attention for someone.

[115] And if they're not getting it from someone that they look up to, they'll get it from the next best thing.

[116] So whether that's a teacher, a friend, a spouse, whatever, you're going to crave that attention.

[117] It doesn't need to be good.

[118] It needs to be sexual.

[119] It doesn't need to be bad.

[120] It just needs to be attention.

[121] You just need to be looked at it.

[122] You need to be talked to.

[123] You need to be the center of someone's world.

[124] for a second.

[125] And sometimes that can have a negative connotation, and sometimes it's the best fucking thing in the world.

[126] Well, it's a double -edged sword, wouldn't you agree?

[127] So, A, she didn't have attention, and B, I'm a bottomless pit for needing attention and approval.

[128] Are you similar?

[129] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[130] One thing I noticed, I was like, okay, this kid had a street hustle going.

[131] He also was catering, and he was in a rap outfit.

[132] Yeah, whoever's shining the light this way, I'll jump in front of it.

[133] Yeah, I got a lot of pots on the stove simmering.

[134] Whatever pops, let's go.

[135] Let's go.

[136] Okay, I forgot about this one.

[137] All right, let's go.

[138] Let's go.

[139] That's how I am all the time.

[140] I'm doing it a lot.

[141] But I love it.

[142] And it keeps me from smoking cigarettes.

[143] Yeah.

[144] But even if I am smoking cigarettes, I'll still do that shit.

[145] Now, the really novel aspect to your childhood is that you went to Nigeria for two years.

[146] Under the false promise, it was like two weeks.

[147] Yeah, that was messed up.

[148] And that's when I knew my mom was a criminal.

[149] This person could get away with murder because she got me. She got me. No, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, honestly.

[150] What ages were you?

[151] And there was extended family there somehow?

[152] Yeah, I was 10 to 12.

[153] So my father was in my life.

[154] I just saw him on the weekends.

[155] And my mother and him were totally estranged, never spoke to each other.

[156] I mean, I'm dropping him off down the block.

[157] You better come get him, this kind of thing.

[158] Not seeing each other at all.

[159] But she always kept in contact with my grandfather.

[160] He lived in Nigeria, and he always said, like, if Kwame is acting up, come and send him my way, we'll get him straight.

[161] One time I was acting up too much.

[162] I was 10 years old.

[163] My mother contacts him.

[164] He comes to America every year in the summer.

[165] We go and see him.

[166] My mom was like, when he leaves, you're going to go back with him just for a couple weeks.

[167] We want you to see what Africa's like.

[168] I'm like, vacation.

[169] Yeah.

[170] This is amazing.

[171] Absolutely.

[172] Hell, yeah, I'm going to this thing.

[173] I also am curious really quick, like what your fantasy of what Nigeria was at that time?

[174] I had been.

[175] Oh, you had?

[176] Okay.

[177] I had been when I was really, really young, probably about like five, six years old.

[178] So I had remembered it in that time frame.

[179] So I knew what I was getting myself into, but I was also excited for that, the smell, the food, the vibrancy, the electricity.

[180] I didn't know I was signing up for the smell, the food, the vibrancy, and electricity for two years.

[181] I thought it was just a two -week smell type of vibrant electric trip.

[182] that turned into an electrocution.

[183] Yeah, and a concise two -week package would have been awesome.

[184] Yeah.

[185] How is it being revealed to you?

[186] Is it like every couple weeks?

[187] Hey, you're staying in there a couple weeks?

[188] Or at some point, someone goes, you're staying here until I think you're not a little shit anymore.

[189] It was like, oh, I'm going home.

[190] It was like, ha, ha, ha.

[191] It was like an African lab.

[192] Like, ha, you know.

[193] And then we go to the call center, and it's like, all right, it's like a month or two.

[194] And I'm like, all right, I get it.

[195] I had to stay the same.

[196] summer.

[197] You got me. Jokes on Kwame.

[198] And we drive to the call center and we have to wait in line.

[199] This is like back 10 years more than that, 20 years ago, I guess, 21.

[200] And there's like call centers or the internet cafes and all that shit.

[201] And we had to drive an hour or two and we stand in line to finally get on the phone.

[202] I'm like, wow, when am I coming home?

[203] Like school about to start.

[204] So on September, and she was like, you're not non -sealing respect.

[205] And I just remembered, I'm never going to see the new Harry Potter.

[206] movie.

[207] Oh.

[208] I'm never going to see America again, like all these things.

[209] And then it was crazy.

[210] We had TV, but like electricity came on whenever it wanted to.

[211] It wasn't like you can pay for electricity.

[212] Like we had a generator, but it was like really slow.

[213] It took diesel gas.

[214] It was expensive.

[215] So we only had it on in certain times.

[216] And one time the electricity came on and the TV popped on.

[217] It was like, womp.

[218] That was a great sound that I just did.

[219] And it came on.

[220] It was like the tube of the TV.

[221] The tubes in the back.

[222] And it came on, and I was like, oh, shit, this movie looks mad real.

[223] And it was like, a plane has hit the World Trade Center.

[224] I'm like, this movie is crazy.

[225] Oh, another plane hit.

[226] Yeah, this movie's too preposterous.

[227] This could never happen.

[228] And I was like, why is this news scene so long?

[229] Like, when are they going to get to the guy saving the towers?

[230] And then I go to the calendar.

[231] I'm like, this 9 -11.

[232] Wait, it's September.

[233] Wait, I go to the calendar and I just like, faint.

[234] I'm like, oh, my, because think about it as a child, I'm like, oh, America's under attack.

[235] Well, and is your mom still in the Bronx?

[236] She's in the Bronx, and she worked in Manhattan.

[237] I don't know where anyone is.

[238] Oh, my God.

[239] I don't know if it's all of America this is happening to.

[240] For me, New York City is all of America.

[241] It's the only place I've lived.

[242] Well, and in fairness to all you, it is for the most part.

[243] It is.

[244] It is the center of America.

[245] But, yeah, so those are the series of events.

[246] I was like, holy shit, I'm staying here.

[247] And then a layer was like, I may never go back because America's under attack.

[248] Yeah.

[249] As a child, it's hard to wrap your head around that.

[250] Yeah, I mean, I've heard a lot of people's, where were you on that day, story.

[251] And, yeah, I never met anyone that was, like, in Nigeria against their will while their home.

[252] Check that box off your list, man. Yeah, wow.

[253] What a story.

[254] So, A, was there any language barriers or is everyone speaking English where you were at?

[255] Most people spoke English.

[256] Yeah, most people took English.

[257] The only bear was, like, pigeon, which I picked up really quickly.

[258] Uh -huh.

[259] Were kids, like, fascinated with you because you were from the States?

[260] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[261] I was a superstar in school.

[262] Yeah.

[263] I was a celebrity.

[264] And then I was quickly picked on.

[265] Once it was normalized, it was like, oh, shit, he's staying, staying.

[266] Get him!

[267] Yeah, yeah.

[268] Does he bleed like we bleed?

[269] Well, also the dudes who've, like, fought for the last 11 years to have alpha status.

[270] Like, you're only charming for so long, and you're like, no, no, no. I'm done with that.

[271] What I can compare it to is like once every three years someone would move to our school from California, and that made them a fucking megastar right away.

[272] A rock star, yeah.

[273] When you came back, you're returning to what, seventh grade, I guess?

[274] Eighth grade, but I didn't have any papers.

[275] My family, like, pretty much convinced them that I was smart enough to continue on.

[276] What did the other kids think about your sojourn?

[277] I mean, I was a new kid in school, so I was once again popular, essentially.

[278] Oh, okay.

[279] I was like, I didn't care.

[280] Like, I came back kind of worse than before.

[281] Because when I went to school, Nigeria, I bucked up on them like, homework.

[282] Ha!

[283] What are you like, what?

[284] No. 20 lashes.

[285] What?

[286] Let me look for it.

[287] Let me look for it, please.

[288] You know, get into a fight.

[289] All right, fight's over.

[290] Carry this cinder block across the field 27 times.

[291] I'm like, what are you?

[292] What?

[293] So when I get back to America, and they're like, you didn't get your homework.

[294] You don't get a gold star.

[295] I'm like, keep your fucking gold stars.

[296] I don't care.

[297] You got a cane, motherfucker?

[298] Right.

[299] So, like, I was, like, hardened even more and, like, very combative.

[300] Oh, man. It backfired, honestly.

[301] Hmm.

[302] I just know that at that age, man, everyone's, like, literally just crafting their identity.

[303] Elementary school, you're pretty much wearing whatever your parents got you.

[304] Junior high, you're starting to, like, really put it together.

[305] I'm going to be this dude.

[306] And then then to just kind of parachute back into that, at the high point of that, I feel like I would be feeling very without a country.

[307] without a group?

[308] Well, you know, I packed my luggage with enough Fubu to get me through two years from that point in time.

[309] So I still had a little bit of style when I got back.

[310] All that to do was watch MTV and BET and I was right back in with everyone else.

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[331] Okay, so then you had ebbs and flows of pretty much being like a good kid and a bad kid.

[332] Ultimately, you get kicked out of schools, you're dealing drugs, you go to college, you get kicked out of there.

[333] When does Obama take off?

[334] Where are you at in that?

[335] story.

[336] I am 19 years old.

[337] I'm in college.

[338] I'm selling drugs.

[339] I'm also using drugs that I'm selling at that point, full out, strung out, essentially, on ecstasy.

[340] And oxis are very popular back then, too.

[341] I just want to add, if I recall.

[342] Yeah, I didn't mess with that.

[343] That wasn't popular in the black community at the time.

[344] Okay.

[345] I was actually selling ecstasy to the white community.

[346] And then I remember clear as day we were sitting around a table and I was like, not going to lie to shit.

[347] It looks fun as hell.

[348] If I take one, will everyone at this party take one?

[349] And they're like, if you take one, we'll take one.

[350] Guami, I was like, all right.

[351] So I took one.

[352] And I'm like, this shit doesn't work.

[353] Let me take another two.

[354] And it was like, da -d -d -d -d -daddy -dha -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -d -dha.

[355] Hyper space.

[356] Uh -huh.

[357] And I had a whole bag, and it was Skittles for the next month.

[358] Oh, baby.

[359] And then probably the most suicidal you'd ever been, 33 days later.

[360] Exactly.

[361] Exactly.

[362] What is life?

[363] What is money?

[364] You know, those conversations.

[365] And yeah, I mean, I saw Obama.

[366] It was one of the times when I was coming out of this four -day party and people still sleeping.

[367] And I'm like, who the hell are these people?

[368] And I look in Obama, like, won.

[369] And I had voted, but I was like, it's no way there's going to be a black president.

[370] I mean, 30 years ago, we couldn't even sign up for golf tournaments in certain places.

[371] We couldn't even eat at certain restaurants in the South.

[372] Even though Jim Crow was abolished, they were like, fuck you.

[373] take our permit, mayor, who's in the Ku Klux Klan, you know what I mean?

[374] So, like, it still was a thing.

[375] And now we have this gentleman who's at the highest power of office in the world.

[376] And that represents something, at the very least.

[377] It's not what he does after that.

[378] It's not what he doesn't do after that.

[379] It's literally his DNA is touching that chair.

[380] And that is a sign for the rest of us here.

[381] So at that point, I was just like, yo, I don't know what I'm going to do in life, but this ain't it.

[382] I flush the rest of my pills on the toilet, and I got on a plane and went to Louisiana and started cooking.

[383] And again, you had had this history both of working with your mom's catering company and also just your family, you're several generations of chef.

[384] So you're down to Louisiana cooking, and then you meet a cat who happens to be cooking on one of these either vessels or oil rigs with the cleanup effort from the deep water horizon, and then you end up running a kitchen on a boat.

[385] I'm on a boat.

[386] I'm 20.

[387] My food was good.

[388] That was it.

[389] They didn't care about black or white.

[390] I mean, the chef cared.

[391] He was a fucking racist asshole.

[392] He asked me if I knew how to read.

[393] He asked if you must be a rapper or something, which I was, but that's besides the point.

[394] Yeah.

[395] Which is funny.

[396] It was a funny interaction.

[397] What are you, a drug dealer or a rapper?

[398] Yes and yes, but fuck you.

[399] and I reject that stereotype.

[400] That's pretty much how the conversation went.

[401] I was like, do you want to buy my mix tape?

[402] But also, fuck you.

[403] Oh, man, that's funny.

[404] But yeah, I mean, he was throwing my food out because people are liking it.

[405] Like, he was telling me, like, I'm supporting to him, yada, yada, yada.

[406] And I was like, listen, dude, you cook your food.

[407] He asked me if I knew how to read because I have a lot of your people that come on here.

[408] I've heard about your people.

[409] I was like, dude, cook your food.

[410] I'm going to cook my food.

[411] That's it.

[412] put breakfast lunch, you cook lunch.

[413] We'll just alternate, man. Like, I don't want to have to ever talk to you again.

[414] Yeah.

[415] That's it.

[416] So then I just did that and the food spoke for itself.

[417] And then you thinking, for me, that was my first introduction on that boat.

[418] I'm like, if this motherfucker's like that, I can only imagine how the rest of these people are.

[419] And I look out and they're smiling and they got one tooth.

[420] Like, these are white people, like the scariest looking.

[421] I don't know if there's what a racist person looks like.

[422] I'm not going to say that that's a thing.

[423] But if I had to imagine.

[424] If you're just picking between who you're taking a ride with.

[425] Yeah, I'm not going to choose this person.

[426] Well, all those roughneck kind of careers do attract a kind of specific person, you know?

[427] At that time, Trump wasn't running for office, but I would say they would vote for him.

[428] Sure.

[429] Or storm the Capitol.

[430] Or Storm the Capitol.

[431] So, obviously, the experience on the boat was pretty profound.

[432] A lightball be?

[433] It was a light bulb on many occasions.

[434] It made me not judge people by the way that they look.

[435] surprisingly, like, because of that one person that treated me that way, I was like, everybody here is racist, and they were not.

[436] They were actually reminding me of my friends back at home.

[437] We got along extremely well.

[438] But also, it just told me that I knew what I was doing.

[439] Yeah.

[440] That I could actually do this.

[441] I had no internet.

[442] This is 12 years ago, and, like, there wasn't strong Wi -Fi like that.

[443] You know, there wasn't computers on the ship.

[444] There wasn't cell phone service.

[445] So, like, I had to just cook for the first time.

[446] Yeah, it let me know.

[447] It was scary at first.

[448] I remember putting up that atoufay for the first time for these like back country Louisiana, that's what they call them, like back country Louisiana guys.

[449] And they were licking the plates asking me how I made this thing.

[450] And I was just like, oh, shit, maybe I can do this, you know.

[451] Yeah.

[452] Also, you don't really know if you're a leader unless you're kind of given the opportunity to do some leading.

[453] So that can be a really profound thing to figure out about yourself as well.

[454] Yeah, exactly.

[455] So when you get done with that, with the boat experience, you decide to go back to New York.

[456] Why did you want to go back?

[457] I wanted to get out of the South because it was racist as hell.

[458] Okay.

[459] I was like, I need to go.

[460] I need to get out of here.

[461] There's not much growth here.

[462] And it's crazy how things haven't changed in so long.

[463] You're probably the fourth guest we've had that has lived many places and then when they said, which is the hardest to be blunt.

[464] And that's come up like five times, I think.

[465] I'm going to say a crazy story, which happened today, 30 minutes before this.

[466] My friend was in town.

[467] He's a chef from the South.

[468] I'm like, yo, like I want to go pick up some La Croy, because I'm a fucking millennial, whatever.

[469] And he restocked by LaCroix collection.

[470] So we go and get all these different flavors.

[471] And then I got to get candles.

[472] I'm in that generation, too.

[473] I got to get all my different candles.

[474] Bing.

[475] Different flavors and shit, whatever.

[476] stop the car out, stars rattling like a fucking hand of dice, right?

[477] The car is fucking rattling.

[478] Mad candles, mad LaCroix everywhere, right?

[479] My friend is like, I'm hungry.

[480] Can we stop?

[481] I'm like, yo, I got to get to this fucking podcast, man. I got to get to the podcast.

[482] You know what?

[483] But I'm a pleaser.

[484] I'm a pleaser.

[485] And I'm also sporadic.

[486] So I'm like, let's stop at this place right here.

[487] We stop at the place.

[488] He's like, I'm going to get a hot dog.

[489] I was like, you want hot dogs?

[490] I'm taking you to Pinks.

[491] Let's go.

[492] We're going to get to this podcast in time.

[493] I'm going to take you to the longest line in the city.

[494] Exactly.

[495] So we're driving, we drive in, I'm driving, okay, and now I got this new Mercedes, this is a brand new Mercedes, press a button, the motherfucker, it parks for you, goes in.

[496] I'm like, yo, let me show you this new feature.

[497] All you gotta do is press this button, we pull up, and then, damn, someone put up behind me. I'm like, yo, man, I'm like, man, I'm like, man, please, I'm parking here.

[498] You're ruining my demo for one, but two, go around me. Just go around me or back up.

[499] So we're here having a standoff for about 10 minutes.

[500] And then a guy comes up to my side thing.

[501] At this point, I'm like, go wait in line.

[502] I'm going to deal with this lady.

[503] Just go wait in line.

[504] So it's long.

[505] So then the guy comes to the side, and he's like, turn your window down.

[506] Turn your window down.

[507] And it's a white guy.

[508] Set the tone.

[509] This lady behind me is a black lady and she's clearly handicapped in some capacity.

[510] She actually has a handicapped sign on her thing.

[511] So I'm trying to work with her.

[512] Right.

[513] You're being patient.

[514] I'm being patient.

[515] He's like, get out of here.

[516] I'm like, first of all, why are you yelling to me, dude?

[517] What do you want?

[518] I was like, I don't have any change.

[519] He's like, he's like, get out of here, make the block.

[520] You're holding everybody up.

[521] I'm like, you got out of the pink sign to come in and tell me, leave me alone.

[522] Just leave me alone.

[523] I know what I'm doing here.

[524] And he was like, what, did you steal that car, huh?

[525] Oh, wow.

[526] And I was like, you know what?

[527] Fuck this parking space.

[528] Pulled into the pinkies.

[529] Got out.

[530] My friend was like trying to hold me back.

[531] I was like, do not touch me off of me right now.

[532] And I walked up to him.

[533] And I was like, you literally got out of baseball.

[534] hot dog line to come to a situation that had nothing to do with you to then ask me, did I steal the car, I'm in.

[535] What was your reasoning for that?

[536] And he was like, because I don't know.

[537] I'm like, you know, you know, and you're sick.

[538] And you're a bitch on top of that.

[539] Because you didn't think I was going to come over and talk to you.

[540] So fuck you.

[541] You're the disgrace.

[542] And you are the reason why this country is going through this right now.

[543] And you are the past 400 years crystallized in a fucking piece of shit right here right now and the whole line can tell that you're racist and then I walked away and all the white you were like, I am so sorry.

[544] I was like, it's fine.

[545] They're like, no, now I'm upset.

[546] I'm like, no, it's okay.

[547] Exactly.

[548] You got to you always find a way to say you've got to comfort them now.

[549] So it's crazy.

[550] I left this out, whatever, been all around the world and the shit does not stop.

[551] The shit does not stop.

[552] I guess it's just like you're really dealing in percentages at some point, right?

[553] Like, okay, that's going to happen to you.

[554] I don't know, 3 % of the time, hopefully in L .A., but maybe down there it's 30, yeah.

[555] It's true.

[556] But then we didn't get hot dogs because I spent 15 minutes with this weirdo, and now I had to come talk to you, which is okay.

[557] I got one follow -up question.

[558] All I got to say is white people are still in my time, left and right, man. Well, two things.

[559] One, had he come under the false guys of that woman's got a handicap plastic?

[560] and you're being a dick giver that spot.

[561] Now, that's one thing, right?

[562] That wasn't the thing.

[563] That wasn't.

[564] Okay, so that's off the table.

[565] So I can't even make that excuse.

[566] My only follow -up question is, do we think you have the exact same reaction if you're still on darts smoking?

[567] Or is it 12 % hotter?

[568] No cigarettes is in the mix, right?

[569] I think cigarettes would have happened after I screamed at him.

[570] Because I don't smoke on him in the car.

[571] I'll tell you a quick story.

[572] So a guy tried to mug me in Santa Monica.

[573] I lived there in a one -bedroom apartment for 10 years, flat broke.

[574] There's a gang that lived in my alley, Santa Monica Tracy, dude tried to mug me, leaving the gas station.

[575] Fight ensued, terrible.

[576] The guy followed me back to my apartment.

[577] Then the gang through a cinder block through my window.

[578] Then I'm at the door of the shotgun.

[579] Then the police arrived.

[580] Then we go downstairs.

[581] We take police photos.

[582] I'm going to brag now.

[583] My hand's still misshaping from it.

[584] Broke his nose, broke his chin, the whole thing.

[585] It was gnarly.

[586] It was really gnarly.

[587] That's amazing.

[588] So, cut to two years later, I'm on day one of quitting smoking.

[589] I'm laying in bed with my girlfriend.

[590] I have literally, I have pajamas on my mom got me for Valentine's Day.

[591] They have hearts all over them.

[592] And I'm laying in bed and all of a sudden I hear blood curdling screaming.

[593] And I jump up and I love the people that live below me. I walk outside.

[594] One dude's holding his broken nose in the driver's seat of a car.

[595] I looked at the passenger side and the dude's getting pulled out of the window.

[596] and it's the same dude who tried to mug me and I am on I've just barely gotten through 16 hours of not smoking I yelled hey and he looked at me I can tell you I was elated to mix it up with this motherfucker again chase him down the street now the cops are coming this way up Broadway they throw me on the ground it's a whole to do cops get me up you got the wrong guy he ran that way what does he look like and I go oh my God I have pictures of them in my apartment from these police photos go with the cops hand him the police photos.

[597] They're laughing so hard.

[598] And then they take the photos and they leave for three hours.

[599] They come back, they give me the photos back, and they never found them.

[600] Anyways.

[601] Now, had I smoked that day, I don't think my reaction would have been quite as volcanic as it was.

[602] Oh, no. My reaction, because I would never want to walk away without that white person knowing exactly how I felt.

[603] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[604] I wouldn't have hit him.

[605] I wouldn't hit him regardless.

[606] Right.

[607] But there had to have been a. a follow -up to that situation.

[608] So, like, my friend was like, are you good?

[609] I was like, I am great.

[610] Like, I am better than good.

[611] This is amazing.

[612] I didn't leave any stone unturned.

[613] There was a small applause.

[614] Like, this worked out exactly how I wanted to work out.

[615] It's kind of like a movie.

[616] Like, it went like a movie.

[617] Could you tell, was he ashamed or was he in denial?

[618] No. He was in denial.

[619] He had to be about 65, 70 years old.

[620] and was just like, how could you afford this car, you black bastard?

[621] That's what was going on in his head.

[622] So he was like, what do you mean?

[623] Would you blame me?

[624] I think he may have said that at one point in time.

[625] Right.

[626] And that's the shame right there.

[627] I remember saying that, and that's when I started walking away.

[628] Oh, my God.

[629] No, no, no. He's going to go home and be like, Connie, could you believe this car thief?

[630] Cursed me out in line for hot dogs?

[631] Where's he stole a car?

[632] And then he dressed me down in the pink's line.

[633] Yeah.

[634] And then he scrammed before he can get a hot dog.

[635] He must have been in the wrong.

[636] The only victory I have is he didn't get a hot dog.

[637] And I know he wanted one.

[638] I could tell he was hungry.

[639] Oh, my God, dude.

[640] I'm fucking sorry that that, uh...

[641] Oh, me too, man. Me too.

[642] I want a really nice little wrap up where I can tell you, it's fine.

[643] And that's not going to happen again, but there just ain't one.

[644] I can't like...

[645] Don't get me worked up, Dax.

[646] I want to fast forward, because we had a good time telling story.

[647] Now, you have a catering business that's doing really well, and you're getting some press, and then you decide to throw this event, and then the event is a major success in that way too many people show up.

[648] If I was going for a failure, it's a major success.

[649] Okay, this is what I relish in, because I got to say, I don't know.

[650] I guess I meet people where it seem to go well, well, well, well, but I've just shit the bed like dozens of times, and it's always turned out to put me on a different.

[651] road that ended up being a better road.

[652] So I just love your fucking story because I relate to it so much.

[653] And just the humility, man, I got to imagine the night of the botched coming out party.

[654] You know a loneliness in your bed that few know.

[655] Oh, my goodness.

[656] It's almost comical.

[657] It's comical.

[658] I remember being in the middle of the fucking club when I emerged from the dungeon of the kitchen and nobody was in the club besides my best friends.

[659] And I was like, I guess I guess everyone and laugh.

[660] And they were like, oh, it's all right.

[661] Oh, my God.

[662] It was so low.

[663] It was at a low point.

[664] And my car was towed when I went outside.

[665] My iPad was stolen.

[666] The girl that I was talking to, I put it in the event in her name.

[667] She took all the money and left.

[668] Oh, man. Man, man, man. You know, I tried to explain to people this feeling of like working for two years, writing the script.

[669] getting the money, getting the studio to greenlight, it's shooting it, editing it for fucking four months, testing, getting it to a number, then traveling the country, begging people to see it, and then getting that call on Friday.

[670] It's like, so this is not working out.

[671] You know, in the last two years of your life, so it didn't work out.

[672] It is the most unique feeling.

[673] It's funny.

[674] It is when you live through it.

[675] It's hysterical, right?

[676] It's hysterical.

[677] You get so mad that you just.

[678] start laughing.

[679] It's embarrassing on so many levels.

[680] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[681] I remember the second, I know where you're going to get to it, but the second time that happened to me was the restaurant that I opened.

[682] Oh, this I'd love.

[683] I spent two years and it lasted nine weeks.

[684] Oh, my God.

[685] I looked like a maniacal genius when that shit blocked.

[686] Like the way I was laughing had to have looked like.

[687] Like, we need to get you committed.

[688] We have to.

[689] Right.

[690] Yeah, so the restaurant that you had this big, beautiful restaurant, I never went in it, but from the sounds of it, it was just fucking gorgeous, right?

[691] Oh, it was nice.

[692] It was very, very nice.

[693] And you start looking around, then you start building some expectations, and you start envisioning this life you're going to have it.

[694] You're like, this is about to go down.

[695] It's about to go down.

[696] Yes.

[697] So it's not just that that thing fails.

[698] I think people don't recognize that.

[699] It's not just that that thing failed.

[700] It's like, oh, and I had to say goodbye.

[701] to all that.

[702] And I, like, design the whole kitchen.

[703] But, yeah, you build this life for yourself, and you're like, this is it.

[704] Right.

[705] You let me get ready for this life that I'm building, and then it's like, back it up.

[706] But if you're smart, not if you're smart, because I don't consider myself a very smart person.

[707] I consider some a very determined person and ambitious person.

[708] And also, I'm very picky about the people that I have around me. It's like, if you surround yourself with people that are like, yo, man, you were still going to do this stuff anyway.

[709] This is just another thing that you were doing.

[710] You were still going to continue to be great.

[711] This was cool.

[712] This didn't work out.

[713] Now do your other thing.

[714] Yeah.

[715] And it's like that reminder will then let you know that those two years weren't actually wasted.

[716] That was gained.

[717] And then the next thing you do is going to be a quantum leap because you have the knowledge of the last thing.

[718] Yeah.

[719] Like, because I guarantee building that thing was among the best moments of your whole life.

[720] I don't regret a second of it.

[721] It was a crash course in operating a restaurant.

[722] The second one was so easy.

[723] Then the third one, was a walk in the park, and the forefront was like, I could do some of my eyes close.

[724] And the fifth one is like, I'm going to tell y 'all how to do this shit while I stay over here.

[725] You know what I mean?

[726] Yeah.

[727] So I loved that whole process.

[728] It taught me what I want.

[729] It taught me how to lead.

[730] It taught me how to follow.

[731] It taught me what to do, what not to do.

[732] It sucked when it all came to head, for sure.

[733] But a pimple sucks when you pop it.

[734] And then after that, it feels better, right?

[735] So, like, it was the same thing, essentially.

[736] And since then, you've won the James Beard Award.

[737] you were food and wine's best chef of 19 you were esquire's best chef of north america of 19 so like all this stuff on the other side of that which is incredible and again everyone who listens to this like you're gonna eat some shit the best people eat a lot of shit it's really just what happens and it's all about can you keep it moving and can you try to enjoy it while you're gonna eat that shit because it's coming.

[738] Yeah.

[739] I mean, it's like man plans and God laughs.

[740] That's at the end of the day.

[741] And it's like someone once told me that the key to success is going into each potential failure with the same amount of enthusiasm.

[742] I don't know if this is going to fail.

[743] I don't know if this is going to be successful.

[744] But I'm going to fucking do it.

[745] Right, right.

[746] And I'm going to put my all into it.

[747] I think that when you have that attitude, the journey is the reward every single time.

[748] It's not the end process.

[749] It's not getting that James Beer award it's not like when i'm on stage getting that i didn't feel this like lift up to the angels type of experience i felt a relief of pressure for sure like that was the most stressful thing trying to get but the journey of that was the most rewarding thing that i've ever experienced yeah it's hard to learn something from receiving a reward it doesn't really there's not a lot to gleam from that thank you well you're a host now you're a host of top chef you know i'm an actor i'm on tv and shit.

[750] I'm a big deal, that's...

[751] I know.

[752] So first I just want to talk about Top Chef for one second, and then I want to talk about Lakeith, because I'm obsessed.

[753] Okay.

[754] But Top Chef, what's fun about this is you were there as a contestant, and now you are there as a judge.

[755] It's so much better not having to run around and make tacos and cook food out of vending machines and shit.

[756] Is it easy for you to be critical of other people, knowing how hard they're working?

[757] I think it's easy for humans to be critical of anything, so yes.

[758] That's not the right question.

[759] We're all critical as fuck.

[760] Is it easy for you to be critical to their face, to tell them the bad news?

[761] Yeah, absolutely.

[762] Oh, okay.

[763] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[764] Well, I'm giving feedback.

[765] I'm not saying, like, you just suck and go home.

[766] It's like being in the kitchen, these are cooks.

[767] So, like, if they put up a dish, I'm like, you needed more salt here.

[768] This wasn't crispy.

[769] You said it was fried.

[770] You said you put chestnut and peppercorns in there.

[771] I have no numbing feeling in my mouth.

[772] If you're going to put something on a menu, it needs to be identifiable on the palate.

[773] And for that reason, you're going home.

[774] You know what I mean?

[775] So it's like, it's not just like, you suck.

[776] I can't believe you did this.

[777] Get out of this kitchen.

[778] It's not bad.

[779] The dish is great.

[780] Your haircut sucks.

[781] Hit the road.

[782] Exactly.

[783] And I can smell your breath from here for what is going on.

[784] No, it's a parental guidance more than a critical eye.

[785] It's more constructive than anything else.

[786] Do you feel like you learned a lot while you were a contestant?

[787] Oh, yeah, because of that.

[788] But think about that.

[789] You're getting critique from the.

[790] top chefs in the world.

[791] So it's like getting feedback on your food.

[792] If you're listening and if you're not defensive, it's like, oh, okay, all I got to do is change a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

[793] And I have a dish good enough for the best.

[794] So even when you get kicked off, you just take those words and then think about that with your own cooking.

[795] Let's say one of the best chefs coming to eat in my restaurant.

[796] And I'm like, chef, how is the meal?

[797] It was great, Kwame.

[798] Thank you so much, gratality.

[799] All right, Kwame.

[800] All right.

[801] Yeah, this just sucked when they talk.

[802] talking to their friends, right?

[803] Now they're getting paid to actually give feedback.

[804] They're literally, that's their job to judge.

[805] So you're actually getting real -life feedback from like some of the best shifts in the world.

[806] If you don't take that knowledge and run with it, I don't know what you're doing.

[807] Because we're not just giving you feedback to make you feel bad.

[808] We're actually saying like, this just doesn't taste good.

[809] This is Y, and X, Y, and Z. And then you can take that knowledge and grow from there.

[810] And I did that.

[811] I internalized that.

[812] And I came back and I looked at my cooking and I saw where I can be better and I saw what I can improve on.

[813] And I think that gave me exponential growth more than the publicity.

[814] It was that real -time information because if you can't back up what you're doing, I don't care if you're on TV or not.

[815] Yeah.

[816] That's going to catch on.

[817] But you still have to know how to cook, except to know how to innovate, and you've got to know how to lead.

[818] Yeah.

[819] This has nothing to do with anything, but did you watch salt, fat, acid heat?

[820] You know, I don't really watch a lot of television.

[821] Okay.

[822] I know some in, but I haven't watched it, though.

[823] Okay.

[824] I love her.

[825] and I am not into cooking shows, but that one fucking got me. It is so beautiful.

[826] If you're ever going to check one out, that's my vote for you.

[827] Okay.

[828] I started a media company producing my own shows.

[829] Okay, well, then all the more reason you better figure out which ones work before you go make one.

[830] All right, dad.

[831] Right?

[832] I can't have only eaten craft macaroni and cheese and start a restaurant.

[833] That is not the same thing.

[834] Okay.

[835] I thought it was pretty analogous, but no, you're poo -pooing it.

[836] Okay, so you wrote a book, notes from a young black chef, and it's been option to be a movie?

[837] Yes.

[838] Okay, so I'm so obsessed with Lakeith.

[839] I imagine you do too, but I love Atlanta like crazy.

[840] Oh, it's the best show ever.

[841] It's so good.

[842] So raw.

[843] But he's so special.

[844] Who nabbed him?

[845] How did he get involved?

[846] Well, these two gentlemen, producer and a writer for the movie came to me, and they played a little bit of bait -and -switch type of thing.

[847] They were like, they went to Lakeith.

[848] like Kwame is interested in us.

[849] Keith had, I think, seen the galley.

[850] When they came to me and they'd like, listen, Lekeith is already on board, you know.

[851] And then they went to the production companies and said Lekeith and Kwame is on board.

[852] And they played a little bit of, but you know, you figure it so you make it, but you got to make it.

[853] And they made it.

[854] They were able to write a really dope script.

[855] They were able to, like, really follow through.

[856] They were able to get 824.

[857] They were to get us all in the room.

[858] And, yeah, that's pretty much how it happened.

[859] But I got a phone call from Lekeith on my way to the James Veer Awards.

[860] no and he was like yo bro like i read your story like i really resonate with it you know i'd love to play you and i was like man i was like hold on one second yeah so let me have my people call your people um i got a lot of people a lot of people interested but uh yeah we'll talk we'll talk yeah as you might expect i've received a lot of these calls but i do like your work so i'm gonna keep you in the hopper i mean for me if i were you he'd have to be in the top three people if i had the whole industry to pick from.

[861] He would be.

[862] He was my top pick.

[863] Issa Ray was someone that I wanted to do it as well.

[864] We spoke about it.

[865] Courtney Kemp wanted to do it.

[866] Ava was interested.

[867] So, like, I had a really good group of people, but Lakeith was not my number one pick.

[868] If I had to pick, pick, was him to play me. He's my favorite actor, so.

[869] Yeah.

[870] It was very surreal.

[871] It still feels surreal.

[872] I don't think it'll really hit me until like I see a preview for it in another movie or something.

[873] Right.

[874] Yeah.

[875] It's hard to let something like that settle in, which is probably a good thing, that you're not immediately like, you're damn right they're making a movie about me and the best actor alive's playing me. Of course.

[876] But you know what's funny is it did make me think of one thing, which is when you were explaining giving the criticism of the food and that they're able to accept it, and I was just trying to think how insecure I would be to have, let's say there was a similar show.

[877] I did a monologue, and we had three great directors, and they gave me some notes.

[878] It would be rough.

[879] But I was distinguishing, really, in this racket, I'm the product, right?

[880] You took a bite of me and you're like, this is too salty or whatever the fuck it is.

[881] Whereas with the food, there's some level of distance.

[882] Exactly.

[883] Yeah.

[884] But you're connected to it, though.

[885] We're connected to that product.

[886] Yeah.

[887] That product is us.

[888] We're putting ourselves on a plate, so it hurts.

[889] But it feels better coming from a pier.

[890] So, like, if an after was a, like, you know, man, all you had to do was, like, believe, like, that line, like, you seem to believe yourself a little bit more.

[891] And, like, if you're supposed to be disheveled, come in disheveled.

[892] Like, just scurting your shirt and maybe I'd believe the character a little bit more.

[893] But when you have someone like, oh, that wouldn't get up, you wouldn't get up, you wouldn't get up, act strong Broadway, see?

[894] Like, you wouldn't, like, and then it's a critic.

[895] And you're like, fuck you, man. You've never even fucking acted in your life.

[896] So, like, I think criticism also can be absorbed differently depending on who's critiquing you.

[897] And I think it came from a more empathetic point of view.

[898] especially from someone like me, not even just like the senior judges, but like I have been in those shoes.

[899] These other judges have never even...

[900] So I'm asking questions like, how much time did you have?

[901] You got three hours?

[902] I know that you could have done X, Y, and Z and why don't you get your broth on first?

[903] And then do this as that.

[904] So the questions, they're like, oh, damn, damn, I didn't even think of that.

[905] You know what I mean?

[906] It's different.

[907] Now that you're saying that I'm remembering, yeah, one time I, the studio insisted I have people give me notes on the script, but I offer, what if we get some screenwriters I love but don't know, so there'd be no like favoritism, And they said, yeah, and so like four great screenwriters, they agreed to read it.

[908] They gave me notes, and I just loved the notes because they were, yeah, there are people who have been in the trenches and know what it's like to deal with this problem or that.

[909] And yeah, I guess that's all the difference in the world.

[910] Okay, so you have a book, you have a movie being made about you with a great actor, your host of Top Chef.

[911] You've got all these awards, and I named them.

[912] You started a really successful restaurant, Kith and Kinn.

[913] You've stepped away from that, right?

[914] Mm -hmm.

[915] I stepped away from everything.

[916] Okay.

[917] During COVID, I started a production company.

[918] I have been producing my own content.

[919] Uh -huh.

[920] Producing my own, like, commercials and social media things.

[921] And now we're in talks for, like, two television shows, two unscripted shows, and then one scripted show that we wrote a whole screenplay for and everything.

[922] I have a collective of, like, four of three of us that one is a New York Times best -selling author named Kwame as well.

[923] One is an actor named Nick Cregan.

[924] He's on, like, own, and he's on the next season of Law.

[925] order.

[926] And we were tired of people like pitching us stuff all the time.

[927] We wanted to pitch our own stuff.

[928] So we started to create our own decks and, you know, started hitting up the rooms that we knew and we started selling stuff.

[929] It actually happened instantaneously.

[930] It was like pretty phenomenal.

[931] That's awesome.

[932] Congratulations.

[933] Thank you.

[934] I have one last stupid question, which is you've cooked for a bunch of people, right?

[935] You've cooked for the Obamas, or is that secret?

[936] No, that's not secret.

[937] And you've cooked for Chappelle.

[938] He's a god on planet Earth.

[939] And Oprah, does the anxiety rise, or do you pick something you know you knock out of the park like 99 % of the time?

[940] What's the thought process?

[941] My anxiety doesn't rise with that.

[942] Yeah, I mean, I've been in the middle of Manhattan with a dining room full of people that have left and were upset and my car stole and then all my money taken.

[943] So cooking for someone who has unlimited money is like the easiest thing in the world.

[944] I'm going to be honest with you.

[945] What did you make, Chappelle?

[946] Well, mushroom tea, I heard that's his favorite.

[947] I will neither confirm nor deny that statement.

[948] I mean, I've made so many things.

[949] I've made oxtails, I've made, you know, jerk chicken, brown stew snapper.

[950] I've done, you know, dinners based on this upbringing.

[951] I've done a lot of different stuff.

[952] What places have you fallen in love with in L .A.?

[953] First, let me just ask you, because you do Afro -Caribbean cuisine, or you did, Kithin 'Kin.

[954] I know this is extending into Cuba, but I'm a real sucker for a beautiful Cubana, and I don't know anywhere in L .A., and I've lived here 25, six years.

[955] Let's go get one together.

[956] We'll figure it out.

[957] Okay, but you don't have a go -to.

[958] No, no, I just got here like a month ago, but...

[959] Oh, okay.

[960] My go -to restaurants, I really like Cato.

[961] I like Nightshade.

[962] I like Bestia.

[963] I like Destroyer.

[964] I like Canari sushi.

[965] It's like this Torch sushi place.

[966] But, yeah, there's a lot of great places here.

[967] There's so many good places here.

[968] Yeah, yeah.

[969] I think more on my side of town, though, to be honest.

[970] Yeah, not to hate on the west side, but...

[971] No, I haven't been around as much.

[972] The east side's got just way more eclectic shit happening.

[973] There's kind of crazier stuff happening over here, I think.

[974] Well, I got to check it out.

[975] Send me your favorites, so I know.

[976] You got to give me the knowledge.

[977] Okay, you're radical.

[978] Oh, stop.

[979] We've both failed so many times.

[980] We're currently succeeding, and we're going to fail again.

[981] But currently today, we're succeeding, and I'm glad to...

[982] to be joining you in that.

[983] We're up today.

[984] We're up today.

[985] We're up today.

[986] We got to celebrate, man. We got to celebrate with a cigarette.

[987] No, I'm joking.

[988] I'm joking.

[989] All right, man. Awesome meeting you and good luck with everything.

[990] Okay.

[991] Take care.

[992] All right, take care.

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