Tuesday, Mar. 13, 2018

[0] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.

[1] This is The Daily.

[2] Today, Venezuela thought its loudest political prisoner had finally been silenced.

[3] Only he hadn't.

[4] Part two of the story.

[5] It's Tuesday, March 13th.

[6] So for the past six or seven months, a couple few times a week, I will sit down at my laptop.

[7] and open up a video chat service that we believe is secure.

[8] And I will create a room, private room, that only Leo Lopez and I can access.

[9] And I wait for a few minutes.

[10] And at a certain point, the screen kind of flickers.

[11] Hey, Will.

[12] How you doing?

[13] Pixelation starts to swirl around.

[14] I can't see you.

[15] You can't?

[16] You're not missing.

[17] much.

[18] After a minute or two, I can see him, and we start talking.

[19] Do you think today would be an okay day to go back to your prison experience and tell me some more?

[20] Yeah.

[21] We don't have much time today, well.

[22] Okay, okay.

[23] But we should just go straight into that if you wish.

[24] Well, how risky is Leo's decision to talk to you?

[25] Oh, it was always risky.

[26] I mean, I'm in jail because of free speech.

[27] I mean, Gerald, because of expressing my ideas.

[28] Remember, Leo Lopez is under house arrest, serving a 14 -year sentence.

[29] Will Hilton writes for the Times magazine.

[30] And the government that's imprisoning him has said in the clearest possible terms, he is absolutely prohibited to speak publicly.

[31] And if he does so, he will be punished in a greater way than he ever has been before.

[32] Is the white van there right now, by the way?

[33] No. Okay.

[34] And he knows they're monitoring him all the time.

[35] We took it for granted that there were audio bugs in his house at a minimum, but it seemed fairly obvious that the secret police outside of his house with an assignment to surveil him would have some access to his internet activity.

[36] And in fact, every so often...

[37] I lost you again, man. A white truck would pull up outside of his house and knock out his video and audio and internet connection.

[38] Hey, are you in there?

[39] And we would have to wait a couple of hours before the van left to resume contact.

[40] So I think that this is important, and I've thought about this.

[41] If I fall for the threat of being, cautious.

[42] It's sending the message that I've become broken.

[43] But despite all this, he was determined to keep talking.

[44] So we took whatever precautions we could.

[45] Like what?

[46] We...

[47] You know, we're just friends from college.

[48] Yeah.

[49] And I'm just, you know, telling a college friend, you know, what's happening.

[50] For example, would pretend to be college friends.

[51] And this college friend is thinking about a trip down there and wondering if Very little talk about journalism, essentially none.

[52] And over time, I got to know...

[53] Hi.

[54] Hi, how are you?

[55] Leo's kids, Manuel is in elementary school.

[56] She's always hugging me. I'm very sweet.

[57] And then Leopoldo Jr., who was only an infant, really, when his father went to prison, is now four years old and is really getting to know his dad.

[58] for the first time.

[59] Hello, Will.

[60] Hey, Lillian.

[61] Leo's wife, Lillian, would just kind of pop in and say, hey, it's good to see you.

[62] I haven't seen you for a while and things like that to kind of keep this looking friendly and not like an interview setting.

[63] Bless you.

[64] You getting sick?

[65] You're getting a call?

[66] I don't know.

[67] I hope not.

[68] You'll know who to blame.

[69] It can only be a couple of people.

[70] I know.

[71] It's not from shaking thousands of hands from Tuesday to Sunday.

[72] It's not.

[73] It's not.

[74] I wish.

[75] I wish.

[76] I wish.

[77] The thing is, we often did joke around about the circumstances because despite the short -term risk of him getting caught talking to me, there was this larger ambient hope around what might be possible in Venezuela.

[78] We saw people in this pro -opposition area waiting hours to vote.

[79] I'm voting to recover democracy, to recover democracy here in Venezuela.

[80] Last summer was a moment in Venezuela, modern history.

[81] Today's vote could be a stark turning point for Venezuela.

[82] Controversial President Nicolas Maduro.

[83] Headlines all around the world were talking about this being a turning point for Venezuela.

[84] Today's election could be a tipping point for a country that holds the world's largest oil reserves.

[85] So a lot of excitement here, Randall, that this is the moment many here have been waiting for.

[86] The opposition parties were rallying into the political ranks to take some governorships and take more mayoralties and hopefully put up a presidential candidate who could win.

[87] Today, Venezuela rose up with dignity to say that freedom is not negotiable.

[88] And so when he and I started talking, I think there was a very strong sense from both of us that while the future was unknown, it was entirely possible that by the time this story came out, Leopoldo Lopez could either be out of house arrest and deeply engaged in the political life of the country or even possibly a candidate himself.

[89] Allegations of election fraud in favor of President Maduro.

[90] His ruling party won nearly all 23 contested state governorships.

[91] The Venezuelan president, Nicholas Maduro consolidated power in an election U .S. officials considered a sham.

[92] But as the weeks went on, it became clear that the Maduro government's grip on power was only tightening.

[93] The diplomats say Nicholas Maduro's government is consolidating power by isolating the opposition ahead of next year's.

[94] presidential vote.

[95] Venezuela's president Nicholas Maduro has barred opposition parties from taking part in next year's presidential votes.

[96] They've effectively barred three opposition parties from running in the election.

[97] They dissolved opposition parties one by one.

[98] They ended up prosecuting and chasing politicians of all different opposition parties out of the country or arresting them.

[99] And so the picture of electoral change just darkened and then shut.

[100] One really important day in the fall, I was out for a walk with my kids and my phone pinged with a message from Leo telling me that he was afraid that he was about to go back to prison right away.

[101] I think it said I may only have a few hours.

[102] Hey.

[103] You get audio now?

[104] So I hurried home and we made the connection.

[105] All right.

[106] Okay.

[107] So, um...

[108] You hear everything that's going on?

[109] Yeah.

[110] Let's go over that.

[111] Last night, around 7 .30, they came to my house more than 30 officers of the political police.

[112] Then they came into my house.

[113] They searched, and they took as a prisoner, the person that has been working with me for the past 15 years, as a head of security.

[114] They had taken his chief of security away, and no one had heard from him since.

[115] He's a very close person with me and Lilian.

[116] He's been in charge of basically taking care of Lilian and my family who had been in jail.

[117] And they took him.

[118] And the excuse that the people from the government gave us is supposedly a journalist coming to my house and that I was planning to give the Venezuelan people a message.

[119] And that was for me a moment when I began to see that what we were working on was not going to end up coming out at a time with less penalty for him.

[120] And it may come out at a time where the penalties would be even worse.

[121] But this gives you clear idea of how sensitive they are about me giving any sort of message.

[122] I am absolutely sure that at this moment, this person that they took is being tortured.

[123] I have no doubt about that, that he's being pressured in order for them to get something else.

[124] out of him.

[125] It was clear to you that this interview was going to come out while he was still a prisoner and with the stakes being quite high, as high as possible.

[126] Yeah, maybe even higher than they were when we started.

[127] So that's a situation.

[128] And I wanted to tell you, Will, that I'm willing to go forward with this that we're doing.

[129] I want to tell you my story.

[130] I'm not telling it to anybody else.

[131] So I would like for you to know that if that happens, you will be the only person that I have spoken with over these past couple of months.

[132] And I would like you to continue, okay?

[133] Well, I'm struggling to really understand why is Leo doing this?

[134] Why is he continuing to talk to you?

[135] Oh, man, I wish I knew.

[136] I mean, I ask, we talk about it.

[137] I try to understand it.

[138] I don't think I can wrap my head fully around it.

[139] I mean, the honest truth is I wouldn't do it in his position.

[140] But I think part of the explanation for him is the despair of the country around him.

[141] Well before sunrise, Hungary Venezuelans are waiting outside grocery stores, praying for food trucks to work.

[142] By mid -morning, there is little hope.

[143] There's only butter and oil.

[144] We need them to send us more food.

[145] The chaos in the country of Venezuela is profound.

[146] Each day at dusk, the unemployed converge on this sidewalk trash heap in downtown Caracas.

[147] Average weight loss in Venezuela now 25 pounds, according to three universities.

[148] You have masses of starving people.

[149] Some even dying from simple infections due to a lack of basic medicine.

[150] It's a country in the midst of violent upheaval.

[151] Levels of crime and violence that, you know, I can't imagine here.

[152] It's the highest murder rate in the world in Caracas.

[153] Their living standards have long declined, pulverized by triple -digit inflation and a collapsing currency.

[154] The exodus of refugees fleeing Venezuela is on a scale that the Western Hemisphere has never seen before.

[155] that compares to the Syrian refugee crisis or the flight of the Rohingya to Bangladesh.

[156] I'm very annoyed.

[157] Only God knows what we're going through.

[158] Because in truth, no one is helping us.

[159] We have a government that doesn't care at all.

[160] At this moment, we'll, leadership needs to suffer and leadership needs to take risks.

[161] And so in a certain way, his suffering is totally different or less than what most Venezuelans are going through.

[162] If you're not willing to suffer, like the people are suffering in a different way, because, of course, I mean, suffering for me is not the same, suffering for people who are not finding food, for example, but it's suffering because, you know, there's different ways, different shades of the same lack of liberties and the impact of the dictatorship.

[163] So he sees his role as a dissonant leader in this moment.

[164] as experiencing some form of pain that may mirror what's happening outside this house?

[165] Yeah, I think it comes from this place of believing that he has a fundamental right to speak and that if he doesn't exercise that right and take that risk, then he's being defeated and he's not standing up for the principles that he thinks all Venezuelans should be out in the streets, taking the risk of protesting and standing up for.

[166] And so I think for him there's a sense that he can be rebellious and defiant in the way that's available to him.

[167] And in this case, it's just speaking.

[168] Because we're on the right side of history.

[169] Because it's not a crime to speak out against a dictatorship.

[170] It's not a crime to want change.

[171] So that's that.

[172] He made it really clear that it wasn't my decision, that it was his decision and that he felt absolutely certain that it was the right thing to do.

[173] This is kind of an extraordinary experience I have to imagine as a reporter to know that your work will put Leo in grave danger.

[174] Yeah, it's horrible in a way.

[175] I mean, look, if you're a journalist, there are going to be some stories where you think Some of the people in the story belong in prison, right?

[176] Sometimes that's what journalism is.

[177] That's the job.

[178] This doesn't feel like the job.

[179] I mean, it feels like the job to tell his story, but it doesn't feel right to know that the subject of the story could be imprisoned just for talking, right?

[180] To me, it's been very easy to imagine that at the end, he might end up in prison and Venezuela might still be spiraling into incomprehensible catastrophe, and that, you know, I will have been the gun he pulled on himself.

[181] And would that be okay if the country continues to spiral and he's back in prison?

[182] It just seems like a very difficult position to be in.

[183] Yeah, I would turn it around on you.

[184] Like, we're doing this and this is part of it, right?

[185] Like, how do you feel about it?

[186] What if the daily is part of the reason it goes back to prison?

[187] And I don't know what to do with that.

[188] Maybe you do.

[189] I don't.

[190] I hope he's okay, you know.

[191] Hey, I thought the big white van had you.

[192] Will, how are Leo and his family feeling the night before the story comes out?

[193] I called them up right before the story appeared online to see how they were doing.

[194] So, I mean, this is important.

[195] Yeah, this is important.

[196] Is it crazy to think that's coming out tomorrow?

[197] It is crazy.

[198] It's been a long time since you've spoken publicly, my friend.

[199] Yep.

[200] My wife.

[201] And he said, Lillian wants to talk to you.

[202] Hi, Lillian.

[203] Hey, Lillian, how are you?

[204] And I had a conversation with Lillian.

[205] And I guess there's a real risk of what will happen.

[206] and your family, how are you feeling about that right now?

[207] That's really bad.

[208] I'm not happy, really, really not, because it's very, very dangerous.

[209] Not only because it's jail, right now could be another thing, because now the dictatorship is really, really strong and they kill people.

[210] So in my mind, I like, try to keep, like, to keep, like, positive, but I really, I'm scared.

[211] I think she was willing to focus her attention on what it really might mean and how bad that could be.

[212] But Lillian was also fully committed.

[213] We need to end.

[214] It's going to be the democracy, the release, the freedom.

[215] No this, no house of lest.

[216] So we need to continue.

[217] So the position of the border is really, really, really dangerous.

[218] But our fight is not only Leopoldo.

[219] We understand what we are fighting for our country, and that's a big, big, big responsibility.

[220] So it's not only our family, it's not only our condition.

[221] It's a country.

[222] So the freer country of dictatorship is not easy.

[223] And our sacrifice, the sacrifice of Leopoldo, we continue.

[224] I heard a story that when Leopoldo proposed marriage to you, that he said, said, before you answer, you should know that if you marry me, you're marrying Venezuela and the sacrifices that I would make for Venezuela.

[225] Do you remember that?

[226] Yes, I remember that every day in my life, every day.

[227] And I say, Jess and Jess.

[228] Are there things that you will do today, tonight, with the family, with Leopoldo, or with the kids, to try to make the most of this evening because tomorrow is uncertain.

[229] I asked them both about how the kids were handling it, what they were doing with the kids to prepare them and they were not preparing the kids.

[230] They have made this decision not to tell the kids about threats to the family, to try to hide as much of it as they can and allow the kids to lead the most normal life possible.

[231] And Lillian told me that they were going to be saying some special prayers that evening.

[232] And brought the kids on to the call to let me hear the prayers.

[233] And it was kind of hard.

[234] heartbreaking to hear the naive enthusiasm and joy in the voices of the kids saying these prayers that they didn't really understand what they were praying for.

[235] suffering.

[236] So I'm, you know, I'm at peace.

[237] I'm at peace.

[238] I'm looking forward to it.

[239] You've got a lot of guts, man. And I appreciate you trusting me to do this with you.

[240] I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you.

[241] And, uh, you know, I, uh, I value friendship a lot.

[242] And your professionalism as well, of course.

[243] Likewise.

[244] Yeah.

[245] Talk to you tomorrow.

[246] Enjoy your family, man. Hey, my friend, I don't, I don't know if it will happen, but, uh, it's close to happening at least.

[247] Well, this is a situation.

[248] So the article gets published, and what happens next?

[249] Well, right as we were releasing the article, the house got raided.

[250] And raided in a new way, something that had never happened before.

[251] The SWAT team style secret police burst into the house with ski masks on and machine guns.

[252] and there was no hiding that from the kids.

[253] They said they had an order to take Leo back to military prison.

[254] They didn't say any more than that, and they refused to leave.

[255] But I just want to let you know that I ask you from my heart that you don't feel bad about anything.

[256] Please don't, don't feel any sense of guilt.

[257] So while the agents with their masks and machine guns are in the house, Leo Lopez is totally undeterred, leaving me voice messages in secret from the next room with the invasion force literally feed away from him because he's been speaking to me. I believe that the best rebellion, the best non -violent protest that I I can make at this moment is to speak out and I chose to do it with you and I ask you please don't feel bad about this.

[258] But please tell your people and not to leave me astray.

[259] Please that's the only thing I ask for you and your people.

[260] Just don't forget about us.

[261] Will, is that what this is about?

[262] A refusal to be silenced clearly, but also about getting the rest of us, the rest of the world, to pay attention.

[263] I think without a doubt, part of his hope here is to get the international community engaged and invested.

[264] And I think if his imprisonment would create greater international pressure that pushes towards a regime change, that would be for him the ultimate impact of the personal sacrifice.

[265] And so far, they have not fulfilled the order for his arrest.

[266] Leopoldo Lopez is still at home with his family, with this increased military presence, and we don't know what's going to happen.

[267] But the threat of re -imprisonment couldn't be any higher.

[268] And we're just going to have to find out.

[269] Well, thank you very much for your time and for your reporting.

[270] Thank you.

[271] We'll be right back.

[272] Here's what else you need to know today.

[273] So, Congressman, you are ending the interview phase here of the House Intelligence Committee investigation into Russia's meddling in the election.

[274] Give us the headline.

[275] What did you find?

[276] Well, the headlines are that we've reached that point where we've interviewed all the folks we need to.

[277] We've looked at some 300 ,000 documents, 73 interviews.

[278] On Monday afternoon, the Republican leading the Russia investigation in the House, Representative Mike Conaway, said his committee has found no evidence that the Trump campaign worked with Russia to influence the outcome of the election.

[279] No collusion that you found.

[280] No evidence.

[281] No evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

[282] Or the Clinton campaign.

[283] How confident are you of that?

[284] Well, we've got, we've found none.

[285] Conaway said that the Republican -controlled committee agrees with the intelligence community that Russia interfered in the election, but objects to its conclusion that Russia favored Trump.

[286] And, Chris, do you have something?

[287] No, no, no, I just, I think you underestimate the power of the gun line.

[288] No, no, I'll tell what.

[289] And they do have great power.

[290] I agree with them.

[291] They have great power over you people.

[292] They have less power over me. I don't need, I don't, what do I need?

[293] On Monday, two weeks after 10th, you know, telling lawmakers during a televised meeting that he would fight for gun control measures opposed by the NRA.

[294] President Trump abandoned that pledge.

[295] In a tweet, the president backed away from his plan to raise the minimum age for buying assault weapons from 18 to 21, saying there was, quote, not much political support to put it mildly for the idea.

[296] But he said he would move forward with a plan backed by the NRA.

[297] to train teachers to use weapons.

[298] That's it for the Daily.

[299] I'm Michael Barbaro.

[300] See you tomorrow.