Jane Goodall

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] This is a very, very exciting episode for me. If you've heard the show, you know I'm an anthropology major, talk about it, ad nauseum.

[3] And of course, the queen of anthropology.

[4] Well, Margaret Meads up there.

[5] But Jane Goodall, my goodness, Jane Goodall, what a human being Jane Goodall is.

[6] She is a primatologist and an advocate for the environment, animals, and the natural world.

[7] For the last 30 years, Jane has been focused on biodiversity protection, fighting the climate crisis, addressing intensive farming, empowering young people through the youth program, Roots and Shoots, and so much more.

[8] She also has a new podcast, the Jane Goodall Hopecast.

[9] So please check out Jane's new podcast, the Jane Goodall Hopecast.

[10] Enjoy the Queen of Primontology.

[11] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad -free.

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[15] How are you doing?

[16] Well, I've never been as exhausted and busy in my whole life as during this lockdown since March.

[17] It's been every single day being virtual Jane.

[18] And yeah, generally you would be traveling around.

[19] and talking, and within that schedule is built in some little breaks for yourself, I'd imagine.

[20] Yes, this is no break at all.

[21] Since March, it's been virtually every single day.

[22] Are you being held captive against your will?

[23] Because you can signal us with, like, raise your eyebrows if someone's forcing you to do all this.

[24] Oh, I'm being forced all right, but then I agree to it.

[25] Well, it is a huge delight for us to talk to you.

[26] We've been attempting to schedule this for a while.

[27] I think you were going to speak at UCLA, my alma mater, and we were going to speak in person, which I was excited about.

[28] But I'll take you any way I can get you.

[29] Okay.

[30] I was hoping today we could go through all the stuff you're up to that you're working on, your podcast, Jane Goodall Institute, Roots and Shoots.

[31] But if it's okay with you, I would really hope to frame this in a broader theme of being female.

[32] I think today that's a very relevant thing for us to be looking at how a female perspective can be so helpful, why there should be more leadership roles for women, and the value of that.

[33] And I can't imagine someone more significant in that way than you.

[34] I think you're in the Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Mount Rushmore of women who have really put their stamp on the world.

[35] You reject that?

[36] You don't like being compared to her?

[37] well she was such an icon yeah i hate to break it to you but so are you yeah well okay so when you started your work i think 1957 maybe is the first time you go to gombie to study the chumby no 1957 i went to kenya and met louis leaky and you know then i had to go back to the u .k for a year while he found the money because you know i hadn't been to college and who was going to give money to this young, untrained girl to do something as absurd as going to study chimpanzees in a forest.

[38] Yeah, not a lot of people you could have pointed to to say, hey, look how good this works.

[39] But yes, you went back, you went to Cambridge.

[40] I think you were the eighth person ever to get a PhD without having an undergraduate degree, which I think is fascinating.

[41] I'm curious how many there are now.

[42] But when you started very, very male -dominated field, is that safe to say?

[43] Well, yes and no. I mean, there was almost nobody going out studying animals in the wild.

[44] There were three people, and they were all males.

[45] You know, George Scheller was studying Mountain Gorilla, and there were two American men in South Africa studying Chakma baboons.

[46] But that was it.

[47] There was nobody else out there.

[48] Okay.

[49] Well, the thing that you were unique in and novel in and that you got a ton of criticism for, can I just say one thing I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you.

[50] I was an anthropology major, so I worshipped you, and I wanted to do primatology.

[51] So just know that there's a lot of baggage for my love for you in this.

[52] But my understanding is that you were really the first person to be doing an ethology where you were not naming the subject's numbers.

[53] So generally, when people studied animals prior to you, they would just say 1A, 1B, whatever their nomenclature was.

[54] And you were really the first to name them and recognize their personality.

[55] Well, remember, I hadn't been to college when I first went out.

[56] Lewis Leakey, my mentor, you know, he's the one who picked me for this study.

[57] And he wanted a woman.

[58] That was one key thing.

[59] He wanted a woman.

[60] He felt they might be more patient in the field.

[61] So that was one good thing for me. And secondly, he wanted somebody who hadn't been to college because he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior people of the time.

[62] So there was nobody out in the field, and the numbers were given by most of these people to the animals in labs and animals in captive situations.

[63] So the reason I named them, well, why wouldn't I?

[64] It's just natural to give an animal a name, not a number.

[65] Yeah.

[66] Well, really quick about Lewis, do you think maybe his confidence in, and the other two women that he shepherded through, Diane Fossi, who then went and studied gorillas, and then I can't pronounce her name, who did orangutans.

[67] Baruti Galdikas.

[68] Yes, yes.

[69] Do you think maybe he was in a position to feel that way?

[70] Because his own wife was so prolific as an archaeologist and they had made discoveries together.

[71] Do you think that made him more open -minded to that?

[72] It's quite possible.

[73] I don't know.

[74] I hadn't thought of that before, but yeah, it's possible.

[75] I think that in general the criticism for you naming them was you were kind of displaying empathy.

[76] And empathy was the opposite of objectivity, which science is going for.

[77] That was the singular kind of criticism.

[78] And I have to say that sounds very, very similar to the outmoded male position that women in general are too emotional and not objective.

[79] they're emotional, not logical, and that to me, the critique of you is more than what's on the surface at that time.

[80] Well, it's absolutely true that when I got to Cambridge, big criticism was you cannot have empathy with your subject.

[81] You've got to be objective, and there's no space for having empathy.

[82] And I disagreed so much because when you have empathy with your subject, and they do something extraordinary, If you have empathy, you say to yourself, well, I think I know why they did that.

[83] And then you can put on your scientific logic and say, okay, well, now let's prove.

[84] Am I right or am I wrong?

[85] And ask questions.

[86] I listened to your interview with Dave Matthews, which, by the way, is a thrilling friendship that you guys have on your podcast, the Jane Goodall Hopecast.

[87] And you gave the example of seeing a young chimp, break her arm, and then go to her mother.

[88] I think what you're describing was when this little baby broke her arm, and she was the first baby, and the mother was inexperienced.

[89] So every time the baby cried, which obviously it was very painful, the mother just hugged her tighter, which made her cry louder.

[90] So, but, you know, there are, there's many examples of chimpanzees showing true altruism to each other, like an adult male rescuing and, orphaned infant who isn't even related to him and saving his life.

[91] Yeah.

[92] But the point I love that you made is, yes, I had these emotions.

[93] I was heartbroken for this inexperienced mother.

[94] But my notes are as thorough as notes could be.

[95] It is as objective as one can be.

[96] One doesn't preclude the other.

[97] And I think that was such a novel idea.

[98] Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[99] It was, tears were pouring down my face because even this little baby was named Little Jane.

[100] She was the only one who's ever been named for me. And, you know, she was three months old.

[101] And at that time, we hadn't watched many infants growing up.

[102] She was about the fifth, I think.

[103] And it was just tragic because it was the mother in such confusion.

[104] The baby so badly her, there was nothing we could do.

[105] So I'm going to go even further with this.

[106] I would argue that your novel approach of having empathy opened your eyes in a way that someone studying them, even for the same duration that you studied them, they would have missed things.

[107] I think they would not have been open because they were this other, this animal, this lower thing, that they would have missed the parallels.

[108] I would even argue your enormous contribution, the legendary contribution is that you discovered that chimpanzees used tools.

[109] That was thought to be something only humans could do in a great definer of what made us human.

[110] And you demonstrated that and you kind of destroyed that fantasy.

[111] Yes, and also we were supposed to be the only creatures to have personality, the only creatures to have minds capable of problem solving, and especially the only creatures with emotions.

[112] And, you know, I was taught as a child by my dog.

[113] Of course animals have personalities, minds and emotions.

[114] It's ridiculous.

[115] Yeah, when the scientists told me that when I got to Cambridge, I really wondered, did they really believe what they were saying?

[116] Or was it just they couldn't prove it?

[117] Therefore, it's better not to talk about it.

[118] Well, I have a whole theory on why they haven't.

[119] I think it serves an actual purpose to alleviate our ethical issues with how they're treated.

[120] But before we get there, you could also say they have culture as well, which is something we would have thought was only us, right?

[121] Yep, absolutely.

[122] A dense culture, if you look at one population versus another, they have their own unique set of things they've learned and are passing on and traditions and all these things that certainly meet the definition of culture.

[123] Yeah, behavior passed from one generation to the next through observation, imitation, and practice.

[124] That is a definition of human culture.

[125] But when I first mentioned culture, I didn't have any other examples really, but it just seemed intuitively that, of course, as you see their babies watching, then in other places where I'd heard there was banging open nuts with rocks, which Gomby Chimps don't do, the young ones there are learning that.

[126] So, of course, they're cultures.

[127] But I was given so much flack over that.

[128] You cannot talk about culture.

[129] Yeah.

[130] So I think the fact that you were naive enough having not been in college.

[131] And then, again, I really think it has a lot to do with you being.

[132] a woman in that situation, that you were empathetic and that through that we get some of the greatest discoveries about that species.

[133] And I really do think other people would have missed it.

[134] I think you're right that many people would.

[135] I really do.

[136] And, you know, I've been reading in the shadow of man, the first book I wrote about the gombie chimps.

[137] It's going to be one chapter a month.

[138] And it just took me right back.

[139] And I was reading and thinking, every little detail is there.

[140] It was magic to read what I was learning about their different personalities.

[141] I mean, it was just magical to see how I did it back then.

[142] Now, is the person, is Jane the person, there had to be terrible days in the field.

[143] There had to be incredible loneliness at times.

[144] You were in your 20s.

[145] There was not.

[146] You just shook your head.

[147] Being alone is very different from being lonely.

[148] And I've always loved being alone.

[149] I mean, even when I was a child, I would climb the tree out there because I'm in my family home and spent ages alone up in the branches.

[150] And I go out with my dog onto the cliff tops on my own.

[151] They were quite wild in those days.

[152] So I've always loved being alone.

[153] The only time I was a little bit lonely, you know, my mother came with me to start.

[154] Well, again, really quick, I think that's hysterical.

[155] as well.

[156] That's another male -female thing.

[157] You were 24 and they insist your mother joined you.

[158] That wouldn't have happened to a male scientist.

[159] No, they did.

[160] That's not true.

[161] They did not insist my mother joined me. They said, I couldn't be out in the field on my own.

[162] Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[163] And she volunteered to come.

[164] Okay.

[165] And it was amazing.

[166] People say I was brave.

[167] I wasn't brave.

[168] It was what I wanted to do.

[169] she was, you know, she was left alone with these big baboons invading the tent because they're very entrepreneurial and they quickly grab anything that might be a new food.

[170] Buffaloes wandering around, snakes, spiders.

[171] She was the brave one.

[172] And she was a novelist, yeah?

[173] Well, she wrote a couple of books.

[174] Okay.

[175] That's two more than I've written, so I'm going to call her a novelist.

[176] All right.

[177] So obviously had her own set of determination, as all I'm pointing out, a determined person.

[178] The whole family.

[179] But you said the time you were lonely.

[180] Yeah.

[181] Yeah, when she first left, it was just before I saw Tool using.

[182] And I really missed having somebody to share the excitement with, you know, I have this cook and a guy driving the boat.

[183] And they listened, they were interested, but it didn't mean as much to them as it would have to her.

[184] Yeah.

[185] I mean, why wouldn't the chimps use tools?

[186] Of course.

[187] Right.

[188] They weren't high -fiving each other when you discovered that they were getting termites out.

[189] Now, there was no period where, of course, because I'm trapped in my own point of view, and as much as I may have been interested in that, were you ever at any moment going, wow, but I'm also missing out on this huge human experience.

[190] I could be in London having drinks with friends.

[191] Did that ever enter your mind?

[192] Were you ever concerned about what you were, quote, missing?

[193] No, absolutely, absolutely not.

[194] Okay.

[195] Although I'd been very social before I left.

[196] You know, I wasn't a little shy, retiring creature.

[197] I was out there having fun and going to dancers and things like that.

[198] Right.

[199] But I didn't miss it.

[200] I didn't miss it.

[201] Because you were so focused and so fulfilled by this pursuit.

[202] Yeah, I was there in the forest.

[203] with all the magic of the forest around me and learning new things every day and all these amazing chimpanzees with their different way of doing things.

[204] Complete magic.

[205] Now, for those of the listeners who aren't super familiar with just what level of threat different primates are, you're arguably with the most dangerous, wouldn't you agree?

[206] The most dangerous?

[207] Yeah, chimpanzees, as compared to, say, gorillas or other big great apes?

[208] Well, I mean, gorillas can lose their temper.

[209] There's one young man who was studying chimpanzees in Congo, and he was attacked ferociously by a male gorilla who'd obviously just had a confrontation with another male, and he was mad.

[210] And how this guy survived, I simply don't know.

[211] And, you know, orangutans can be violent, and they're all strong.

[212] So, yes, chimpanzees with each other, they can kill each other.

[213] And it's lucky they didn't want to kill me. Yes, let me just say from a personal point of view, I have trekked up to the guerrillas.

[214] I felt pretty safe.

[215] And then we also went into a forest on the hunt for chimpanzees.

[216] And there were a lot more rules.

[217] And it was taken much more seriously.

[218] Like this has the odds of going bad far more than the gorilla experience would.

[219] Well, that's probably because of the people running the program.

[220] Okay, I'll blame them.

[221] But as you point out, they're incredibly strong.

[222] Four times stronger than a, you know, full -grown adult human.

[223] Eight times stronger than me, I'm sure.

[224] I mean, they are very, very strong.

[225] And they can be very, very violent.

[226] And were the scary moments, yes, there were.

[227] There were.

[228] Oh, yeah.

[229] But none that ever made you rethink or question what you were going to do.

[230] No. Of course not.

[231] I'm obstinate.

[232] I don't give up.

[233] And I couldn't let Lewis Leaky down, could I?

[234] No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's someone's approval I would certainly be in search of.

[235] Did you always have that obstinate disposition going through life, or did it sort of come when you had this passion?

[236] I think I probably always had it.

[237] Yeah, I think you're born with that or not.

[238] Yeah, you were, for sure.

[239] And I have a pretty bad dose of it.

[240] Can I ask you, while you were watching chimpanzees over these many, many years, how were the male -female roles in chimpanzees similar to our own, and how are they different?

[241] And was that something that interested you?

[242] Well, I was interested in everything.

[243] What I loved was watching mother -child behavior, development of infants, relations with brothers and sisters.

[244] But the males are dominant.

[245] They have a dominance hierarchy.

[246] They dominate all females, and they're very promiscuous, which, of course, some people are too.

[247] So, you know, they are, they're not all monogamous.

[248] And so basically when a female comes into Eistress, when she's ready for mating, she may be mated by all the males, one after the other.

[249] The very sexually popular old female flow was mated 72 times in one day.

[250] Oh, my goodness.

[251] She was pretty exhausted at the end of it.

[252] Oh, gee.

[253] But she was followed by this string of males.

[254] And the adolescents who, you know, don't really get a go, they will hide behind a bush and shake a little branch.

[255] And sometimes the female will look at the alpha male and then creep off behind the bush.

[256] And is it there's even evidence?

[257] I remember reading a paper called lying in primate.

[258] and how they'll also give a call, like that there's perhaps a predator in the area so that all the alphas run towards it and then they get a shot at the female while the alphas are out.

[259] I think that sort of thing happens sometimes too, but mostly that happens when, for example, chimps hunt sometimes, and hunting is a very exciting thing.

[260] So if the top male sometimes shows possessiveness and other males are not supposed to make his female, that happens often, but if the alpha male gets distracted and he's looking up at the hunt, that's when the other males run in and get a go.

[261] And if the alpha male, the possessive male catches them, who do you think he attacks?

[262] Oh, I hate, I, yeah, the girl, the female.

[263] Yeah.

[264] That's pretty, um, that's kind of consistent with humans, yeah.

[265] Yeah.

[266] If he attacked the male, the female would run off and have more fun.

[267] Oh, well, huh?

[268] I didn't think of the strategic aspect.

[269] He would be creating another window of opportunity.

[270] So I have a quick question for you.

[271] Does it correlate perfectly with sexual dimorphism?

[272] Like, is the level of male dominance proportional to how much bigger males are than females in species?

[273] Well, certainly between chimps and bonobos, the, male bonobo is more or less the same size as the female, and you don't get the same system of sexual relations.

[274] And bonobos as well, they have a much broader sexual experience than pantrogliditis, right?

[275] They're doing more things.

[276] Well, the female bonobo is having this pink swelling all the time.

[277] So they solve a lot of disputes through sexual behavior.

[278] And females reassure each other by rubbing their sexual swellings together.

[279] So I was so glad Lewis Leakey didn't send me to study them because the geographic would never have supported it because they couldn't in those days have had all these pink bottoms in their pictures.

[280] There's a wonderful photograph in the, I think it's the second geographic article which would have been in, let's see, 69, I think.

[281] And it's a photograph taken by my husband, Hugh.

[282] go.

[283] It's a wonderful photo of five males sitting in a row, and they're all a little roused, looking at the camera, hair slightly hot, and all with these big erections.

[284] And when you look at the photograph, there's a mist, little strange mist at loin levels.

[285] Wow.

[286] Wow.

[287] He captured the perfect moment.

[288] Well, you know, in those days, it was no photoshopping, and I saw a note to the engraver, blend into fur blend into fur blend into fur that's how the geographic was then even one photograph it's lovely those setting sun and it's up against you know a beautiful evening light and I'm holding the walkie -talkie to send a message to my mother who's down to tell her I'm staying up for the night and I get back this picture with the note to the engraver and around each nail It's a circle.

[289] It says, remove dirt from nails.

[290] Oh, you're kidding.

[291] Oh, wow.

[292] Oh, wow.

[293] Oh, man. Well, it's changed.

[294] Oh, what a change.

[295] Yeah.

[296] Now, of course, because I'm male, I had a particular interest in Frodo.

[297] I mean, he almost looked like a silverback.

[298] He was so disproportionately muscular.

[299] I was fascinated by him.

[300] Did you name him after Frodo Baggins?

[301] He was, but that's before I realized his.

[302] personality.

[303] It was entirely not like.

[304] I was going to say he did not live up to the name Frodo Bagan's.

[305] What Frodo was, as Flint was before him in this dominant F family, he was a spoiled brat.

[306] He had an older brother who supported him, an older sister who supported him, a top -ranking mother.

[307] And so he could get away with murder.

[308] I mean, he could attack and tease a much older individual knowing that his family would run to his support.

[309] And he became a real bully.

[310] Yeah.

[311] And he was enormous, though.

[312] He was considerably bigger than most of the other males, wasn't he?

[313] Not really.

[314] He just looked bigger because he had so often his hair bristling.

[315] Okay, okay.

[316] But he was more solid.

[317] He was very solid built.

[318] Yeah.

[319] So knowing that you are empathetic and that you are not trying to deny whatever emotional feelings, could you come to hate any of them?

[320] Like, would you be frustrated?

[321] with Frodo because he did act like such a spoiled brat so often.

[322] And of course, his victims are other chimps you love.

[323] Yes, of course.

[324] I was mad at him.

[325] Yeah.

[326] You know, I was mad when they did things which were really unpleasant and horrible.

[327] I mean, I think of them like humans.

[328] Right.

[329] And there are people who do things that irritate you or make you angry.

[330] Same with the chimps.

[331] Yeah.

[332] Yeah, but it would be hard for me if I was in that position to try not to correct behavior versus just observing.

[333] No, no. If you were in that position, you wouldn't feel that's at all.

[334] For one thing, if you tried to intervene in something like that, that would be the end of you.

[335] Oh, yeah.

[336] Well, I might get myself.

[337] He was a monster.

[338] I mean, he was so strong and violent at times.

[339] So the very ironic part of your life, it has to occur to you, is that you went deep into a jungle and you are entirely anonymous and that at some point you emerge and you're a world figure.

[340] I think that must be one of the most bizarre trajectories to being recognized the world over.

[341] Most people come to Hollywood where we're at to get that kind of recognition, but you went deep into the jungle.

[342] And that transition for you, is it confusing?

[343] Is it natural?

[344] What does that experience?

[345] Well, when it first happened, I was, you know, basically a shy person.

[346] And first of all, all these journalists wanting to interview me, and I tried to get out of it.

[347] And then I remember the first time somebody coming up to me and I was walking through Santa Fe, actually, and this woman came up, and she started tears in her eyes saying, you know, she actually said, can I touch you?

[348] Uh -huh.

[349] Can I touch you?

[350] Well, I thought this is spooky.

[351] this is awful.

[352] I said, well, I'll shake your hand.

[353] And so at the beginning, you know, people would come up in airports and they'd want selfies and could I sign something.

[354] And at first I was really, I hated it.

[355] I put on dark glasses.

[356] I let my hair down.

[357] But it still went on.

[358] And then I thought, well, by this time I'm trying to raise awareness.

[359] I'm trying to raise money for the Institute, trying to develop our youth program.

[360] And so I thought, well, this is obviously something that's happened.

[361] I can't do anything about it.

[362] I didn't ask for it.

[363] So I will use it.

[364] So taking brochures around, handing them out, saying, do you have children?

[365] Then they must join Roots and Shoots.

[366] Give them a brochure.

[367] Well, yes, it sounds like you accepted the reality of what it was, which is there's no going back.

[368] So how do we make the best of this situation?

[369] Yeah.

[370] Just so you know, if I met you, I would attempt to groom you.

[371] Ah.

[372] Well, I would have played along.

[373] Okay, I would demonstrate your status.

[374] I would have groomed you back.

[375] Oh, wonderful.

[376] This would have been wonderful.

[377] I probably have groomed your beard.

[378] Let's start there, yeah.

[379] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[380] We've all been there.

[381] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains.

[382] debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[383] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[384] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[385] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[386] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[387] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[388] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[389] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[390] What's up, guys?

[391] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[392] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[393] Every episode, I bring on a friend.

[394] and have a real conversation.

[395] And I don't mean just friends.

[396] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[397] The list goes on.

[398] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[399] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[400] To your point, our best friends of a nine -year -old girl.

[401] I mean, we've interviewed Bill Gates and Hillary Clinton, you name it.

[402] None of this stuff has reached their radar.

[403] They could care less.

[404] But the nine -year -old find out we were interviewing you and she was beside herself.

[405] She had to dress up as someone, admired.

[406] She's gone as you several times.

[407] And I think what an amazing thing that you were born in 1937, maybe, and here's a gal.

[408] Even better.

[409] 34.

[410] And here's a little girl born in 2010, mimicking you.

[411] I just think it's so spectacular.

[412] And for a wonderful reason, not because you have a humongous butt and show it on Instagram.

[413] Like, I'm delighted that there are young women who would dress up like you.

[414] and that my daughters are excited.

[415] It's so wonderful.

[416] So with your notoriety and your deep love for the environment, for conservation, for animals, you've been a part of a couple of different really, really successful organizations, the first of which was the Jane Goodall Institute, which was established in 1977.

[417] And I believe now there's 10 ,000 groups in 100 countries.

[418] That's going on to the youth program.

[419] The Jane Goodall Institute, we have 24 separate institutes.

[420] in 24 different countries.

[421] Oh, my goodness.

[422] And the program for young people is a program of the Jane Goodall Institute.

[423] Got you.

[424] So Roots & Shoots is under the umbrella of Jane Goodall Institute.

[425] Yes, yes.

[426] Okay.

[427] Now Roots and Shoots has 4 ,500 groups in 70 countries.

[428] Do you agree to that?

[429] About 70.

[430] Yeah.

[431] 68, 69, 70, 72, something like that.

[432] There's groups we don't even know about.

[433] Because, you know, they discovered one the other day and far away in the rainforests of Guatemala or Ecuador or something.

[434] And we get young people going from one school to another, and they love this program.

[435] So they started in the new school.

[436] So it just grass roots.

[437] Yeah.

[438] Walk me through what Roots and Shoots does.

[439] What's the objective and it's youth -centric?

[440] So what is the goal?

[441] How does it work?

[442] So it works that a group gets started.

[443] let's say it's mostly in a school.

[444] And very often there's a teacher who tries to get it going, or it may be a high school student or something like that, or it may be in a university, or somebody may start it in a kindergarten.

[445] So you get the group of young people who care, and you tell them now, you know, choose three projects to make the world better, one to help people, one to help animals, one to help the environment, because the choices they make will depend on how old they are, if they're rich or poor, if they're living in the town or the country, if they're living in China or the United States or Abu Dhabi or something like that.

[446] Lily should start one.

[447] Yeah, by the way, she'd be so great at like doing.

[448] Yeah, she really was.

[449] She's a boss.

[450] Okay, wonderful.

[451] Yes, you can help her.

[452] So that's how groups start.

[453] And when I was traveling around America through the airports handing out my little brochures, you could follow my progress by seeing where new groups started up.

[454] Wow.

[455] You're like just dropping seeds as you walk.

[456] Yes, that's right.

[457] So, okay, now let's go back to, I think, the general reservation in the past of acknowledging that animals have an emotional capacity or an intellectual capacity, I think the hesitation there is if that is recognized, then you must immediately go to what the ethical dilemma of eating them is or studying them or any of these things.

[458] Well, studying them with intervention, studying them in research laboratories, certainly eating them.

[459] It's more than the eating of them.

[460] It's the way they're kept in the factory farms.

[461] It's horrendous.

[462] And then on top of that, there's the harm it does to the environment.

[463] You've got to feed them.

[464] You cut down habitats to grow the grain.

[465] You use fossil fuel to get the grain to the animals, to the animals to abattoir meat to the table.

[466] They produce methane gas, which is like CO2, the greenhouse gases.

[467] I think 32 times better at heating up the atmosphere than CO2.

[468] I mean, it is really the lethal gas up there.

[469] Okay, so I don't want anyone to call me a hypocrite because I do eat meat.

[470] Obviously, I don't feel morally great about it.

[471] And I think I've tended to focus on exactly what you just mentioned, which is the manner in which we're getting the meat.

[472] Feels like it could be vastly improved.

[473] But you know something.

[474] If you love the taste of meat, these alternatives to meat, I can't tell the difference.

[475] It's identical.

[476] You're right.

[477] You're right.

[478] We eat these Light Life burgers, and they're insanely delicious.

[479] You're right.

[480] There is no reason to not embrace those.

[481] I agree.

[482] No. I guess and tell me why I'm an idiot.

[483] I'm going to give you an opportunity to point out my flaw.

[484] So I have no problem acknowledging the value and complexity of animals.

[485] I'm not in denial of it.

[486] To me, it's quite obvious.

[487] I guess I go to a place where, well, I'm an omnivore and omnivores eat meat and I'm like any other animal that's an omnivore.

[488] I don't feel guilty about playing my role in the food chain.

[489] Now, I'm obviously playing an absurd role that I wasn't really designed.

[490] So I also acknowledge that.

[491] But I think that that's what I fall back on morally.

[492] Do you want to blow some holes in that?

[493] I will.

[494] First of all, you are able to comprehend the exact nature of the creature that you're eating.

[495] And you know that that is an animal that has emotions that can feel fear and pain plays a role in its society, or it would do if it was allowed to.

[496] And so that makes you separate from the other animals.

[497] There's also something else to do with health.

[498] And we have the gut of a herbivore.

[499] And the herbivore has a long gut because it's got to get the goodness out of leaves and grass and things.

[500] A carnivore has a short one because it's got to get rid of the meat before it rots in the intestines.

[501] So we're harming our health this way.

[502] Plus these poor animals are given hormones to make them grow faster and antibiotics to stop them.

[503] dying because of stress.

[504] So those antibiotics, the bacteria, building up resistance because they use all the time.

[505] Is there a hierarchy in your mind or no?

[506] Like, what about eating insects?

[507] Are you more in favor of that?

[508] Well, that's something I haven't really come to grips with, you know, because there's even people now talking about the fact that some plants may have purpose.

[509] Oh, well, then we're done.

[510] Then we just got to.

[511] kill ourselves.

[512] It is a tricky, yeah.

[513] Well, I have to say that if I was asked to choose between eating a pig and a mealworm, I would choose the mealworm.

[514] Okay.

[515] And I don't think it's too terribly bad to eat insects somehow.

[516] How do we feel about eggs?

[517] Oh, well, if eggs from hens clucking around in the farm yard, I don't mind so much, but the factory farms are horrendous.

[518] Yeah.

[519] environment.

[520] And the milk coming from these dairy cows and these, I mean, you watch some of the secretly filmed video and you feel ill. That's what stopped me. When I learned about factory farms for the first time, it was in the late 60s.

[521] And next time I looked at meat on my plate, I thought, this symbolizes fear, pain, death.

[522] Yeah.

[523] Not appealing.

[524] No, not very.

[525] appetizing.

[526] Yeah, it doesn't make me very hungry when you lay it out like that.

[527] And you know what else?

[528] When I'm talking to people, I never, I never say, oh, you're a bad person, you eat meat, you shouldn't blah, blah, blah, blah.

[529] I want you off to this to Google and check out Pig Casso, not Picasso the artist, but Pig Casso.

[530] You watch that.

[531] Okay.

[532] Well, here's what happened to me. I watched Forks Over Knives eight years ago, and I went vegan for a year.

[533] I doubt forks over knives is as alarming as what you just told me to search.

[534] So if I'm going to watch it, I might as well go grocery shopping first because I'm sure I'm going to have to make a decision afterwards.

[535] But you really, I mean, I felt so much better when I stopped.

[536] I felt light.

[537] Didn't you feel better when you were vegan for a year?

[538] I didn't do it right.

[539] I didn't put feel much better.

[540] I think I felt worse.

[541] I'll own a failure on my part.

[542] And the choices now are so good, aren't they?

[543] Well, they're way different than I did it in 2012.

[544] Exactly.

[545] Exactly.

[546] I mean, it's come on a long way.

[547] You know, to be honest, what got me off of it is I was going back to Detroit nonstop because my father was ill, and you just couldn't eat vegetarian in 2012 in Detroit.

[548] Now, in L .A., it's pretty darn good and easy.

[549] Overall, are you optimistic or pessimistic?

[550] Or pessimistic.

[551] Where are you at on our state?

[552] Well, I'm both.

[553] I know that if we all get together, we've got a window of time.

[554] We can start slowing down climate change.

[555] We can start healing some of the harm that we've done.

[556] Nature's very resilient.

[557] We're coming up with our intellect with, you know, more and more ways for clean, green energy, renewable energy and things like that.

[558] But the thing is, we don't have that much time.

[559] So how do we get people involved?

[560] That's why I work so hard on Roots and Shoots.

[561] And I'm so thrilled because many children are changing their parents.

[562] Oh, yeah.

[563] Mine do daily.

[564] It's so annoying, but I do get drug along by a lot of things.

[565] A little girl in China, who I first met when she was 10.

[566] She couldn't speak English.

[567] She came to my lecture, which, of course, was translated, and she said to her parents, I'm going to learn English because I want to talk to Dr. Jane.

[568] And she started a Roots and Shoots group, and her mother helped her.

[569] And now she's fluent in English.

[570] She's doing all kinds of amazing things.

[571] But I got a letter from her mother.

[572] She said, Dr. Jane, I have to tell you, she doesn't speak English either, but her daughter translated it, that I was just a housewife and I went shopping and I never thought about.

[573] and I didn't think about anything.

[574] She said, now I've become a thoughtful person and I think about what I buy and how it was made and did it hurt the environment.

[575] And she said, this program of yours has not just changed the children.

[576] It's changed all their parents too.

[577] Yeah.

[578] That's lovely.

[579] Of the things you've done, what is most rewarding, that stuff, inspiring a little girl in China?

[580] Or is it the fact that you probably played a huge role in the fact that chimps are still here?

[581] I don't know.

[582] If I'm, you know, if I'm asked what's the one main thing?

[583] Yeah.

[584] I think one thing that I really feel, the chimps helped me to do this, but to change the scientific attitude towards animals.

[585] Mm -hmm.

[586] Yeah, that's pretty darn profound.

[587] That's a paradigm shift.

[588] Yeah, it's a paradigm shift.

[589] And the other one is starting roots and shoots, because that now has its own life.

[590] If I die tomorrow, Roots and Shoots will carry on.

[591] Well, that's such a good point.

[592] Yeah.

[593] For someone who wants to enact change, trying to figure out how to do it in your absences, I imagine the hardest thing to figure out, which you've done.

[594] Yeah.

[595] Okay, now, your podcast, I want to know, do you like interviewing people?

[596] You've been interviewed your whole life, and I was in a similar situation, which I'm an actor, and I've been doing interviews for 15 years, and I'm like, oh, I know how to be in an interview.

[597] And guess what?

[598] I did not.

[599] I knew how to get interviewed.

[600] And I had to learn how to interview.

[601] Have you enjoyed hosting Jane Goodall Hopecast?

[602] Well, when I was told I had to host it, I was shocked.

[603] I said, I can't do that.

[604] Who are your captors?

[605] I must intervene.

[606] Yes.

[607] So anyway, then I found I could do it.

[608] It's like the first time I had to give a lecture.

[609] I felt that for the first five minutes, I literally couldn't bring.

[610] breathe.

[611] I was terrified.

[612] But then suddenly I realized that, I don't know, something from the audience that filled me with, I don't know what it is, but it's a kind of magic which comes to me when I'm out there in front of a crowd.

[613] That's why this virtual business, virtual lectures, looking at a little camera on the top of a screen, that is so hard.

[614] I've had to really put every ounce of energy into trying to give a proper lecture without an audience.

[615] Yeah.

[616] You know, this is a topic I bring up all the time.

[617] There's a term for that.

[618] I can't remember it.

[619] I am always, having majored in Anthro, I'm always trying to get people to recognize how social of an animal we are.

[620] Like, we have this very obvious understanding that dogs are social, so they behave this way in this predictable way, and they respond to this.

[621] And we seem to underestimate.

[622] that we're the like apex social animal and that all the things chimps need.

[623] We need probably times three.

[624] This notion of us being an island, that is not how we were designed to live.

[625] And I think you look at all of our mental health issues.

[626] We underestimate just how social we are and how much we need each other.

[627] And you standing in front of an audience makes total sense to me because you are feeling the full brunt of community.

[628] Like this is what you were designed to do.

[629] That's right.

[630] I do feel I have a sort of purpose in this life and I just have to try and do it.

[631] You know, when I was little, I wanted to write books because I was so shy.

[632] And I started writing when I was four.

[633] My mother used to write it down for me. I found stories I wrote when I was five.

[634] I got one lovely one.

[635] So I always wanted to write.

[636] I wanted to write poetry.

[637] But then, you know, 10 years old, Africa, wild animals.

[638] books, that that's what I wanted to do.

[639] Because women weren't that sort of scientist then.

[640] So that was my goal.

[641] And is it true?

[642] You still have the chimpanzee stuffed animal your dad gave you as a child?

[643] Yes.

[644] He's in lockdown in Washington, D .C., where he was part of the exhibit they put on becoming Jane or something like that, which I haven't seen yet.

[645] And then lockdown came so he's still there.

[646] Oh, no, he's in quarantine by himself.

[647] I told them they couldn't have him.

[648] He was too precious.

[649] Yeah.

[650] They made him a glass bulletproof case.

[651] And he was hand carried.

[652] He's on display like the Pope.

[653] Well, if there's ever an auction, the only thing I think I'd ever want to own of somebody.

[654] You know, I think I'd be a good steward of that teddy bear, should that ever happen.

[655] I'd take care.

[656] Teddy Bay is a chimpanzee.

[657] You'd be a bad steward if you can't tell the chimp from a bear.

[658] Well, they're both mammals.

[659] It's an easy mistake.

[660] My last question about your podcast, I find, if I'm just being honest and candid with you, I find that the experience of having fame is underwhelming and more of an inconvenience.

[661] But I will say the thing that I most enjoy is that I get to meet someone like you.

[662] And I have to imagine that you are not impervious of that, too.

[663] Do you enjoy the fact that you can meet people that you are greatly interested in?

[664] Of course, because there's people I want to meet because they can really make a difference.

[665] There's none that you just, they're not even going to make a difference, but like John Travolta.

[666] You love Saturday Night Fever, and by God, you could have a conversation with John Travolta.

[667] No?

[668] Well, I'd hate to say, but I haven't had time to go to cinemas for so long that I don't know the film stars.

[669] Well, I was trying to make that one easy for you.

[670] That was 1977.

[671] Saturday Night Fever.

[672] I didn't see that film.

[673] Do you have a favorite film?

[674] Lord of the Rings.

[675] Oh, okay.

[676] That's a good one.

[677] You think about Lord of the Rings.

[678] It's exactly like what's going on now.

[679] If you think that Mordor is greed and riches and all these despots who are out there.

[680] and that we need to grow the fellowship to fight that, to fight the black riders who are out there all these big businessmen who couldn't care less about anything else.

[681] And even, and I even thought of that recently, but if you remember, Galadriel gives Frodo a little vial of dust and when he sprinkles it, all the trees that are being cut down by Mordor come to life and grow up again.

[682] So the whole thing, it's like a parable of what's going on.

[683] Right.

[684] Prophetic.

[685] Yeah.

[686] It is prophetic.

[687] Yeah, I hadn't made that connection.

[688] No, I made it.

[689] Yes, you did.

[690] It's proprietary to you now.

[691] Jane, you're so wonderful.

[692] I appreciate your time so much.

[693] I really want you to tell your captors that you need a little break, though, okay?

[694] They're not my captors, don't worry.

[695] I'm not a weak and feeble person.

[696] You are not.

[697] No, you're anything but.

[698] I do have a job to do, and the job requires me to do what I'm doing now.

[699] So my mother taught me, if you're going to do something, do it as well as you possibly can.

[700] Well, your mother should be incredibly happy because you've done exactly that.

[701] And I thank you on behalf of my children, future generations.

[702] I'm so grateful to you for dedicating so much of your life and time and energy to trying to make this place somewhere we can live.

[703] for more than another 100 years.

[704] Thank you, and it's been absolutely lovely talking to you.

[705] I was really looking forward to it.

[706] Well, we will meet one day, and I will groom you.

[707] It'll be the best grooming of your life, I guarantee it.

[708] And I will groom your beard.

[709] Okay, have a wonderful rest of your day, and we appreciate you so much.

[710] Thanks.

[711] Okay, bye, bye, Jane.

[712] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[713] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[714] Hello, is Monica there?

[715] Paging Mrs. Padman, Mrs. Padman.

[716] Wow, you're huge on my computer.

[717] Oh, too big?

[718] No. Your life size.

[719] We are not together, obviously.

[720] We are not together.

[721] We are separated by about 800 miles.

[722] And what are you doing, 800 miles away?

[723] I just decided to get out of town.

[724] Just fucking hit the road.

[725] North to Alaska or south to L .A., get out of town.

[726] I'm shooting season two of Top Gear America in Utah.

[727] And how is it going?

[728] Oh, man. It's so good.

[729] It's so good.

[730] Oh, sorry.

[731] Oh, what the hell happened?

[732] That was my peppermint tea.

[733] Oh, my gosh.

[734] Making a real life ding, ding, ding.

[735] Yeah, so so much fun, jumping trucks, racing, German station wagons today.

[736] horsing around, cutting up with the guys.

[737] Oh, wow.

[738] You know, that kind of stuff.

[739] You love a cut up.

[740] I do love to cut up.

[741] And you have been very productive this weekend.

[742] Yeah, I've had almost no fun.

[743] I've been only productive.

[744] You have fun doing that, though, right?

[745] Yeah, well, I wouldn't say fun.

[746] It's just really satisfying.

[747] So what I did was...

[748] Satisfisers?

[749] Yes.

[750] I decided to get my life together.

[751] It was time.

[752] It was overdue.

[753] It was way overdue.

[754] I was feeling, in all honesty, a bit out of control.

[755] I needed to gain some control back.

[756] So the best way to do that is shopping, which I did.

[757] Then the second best way is to clean and organize.

[758] So I cleaned and organized everything.

[759] You know my scary closet that's like very scary because it's a big old mess?

[760] Where we keep the equipment?

[761] Yeah.

[762] And every time we got to get the equipment out of there, it's like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom.

[763] Like I'm waiting for darts to shoot out of the walls.

[764] Oh, no. Well, you brought it up.

[765] I did clean it up a year ago.

[766] And it took all day.

[767] I mean, it was horrible.

[768] I had posted a picture of it in its worst state.

[769] And it was really, it was like Monica Geller's secret closet.

[770] Friends fans will know what that means.

[771] Okay.

[772] You're not going to know.

[773] I don't know what that means.

[774] When you said you posted a picture, I thought you were in the process of saying you had post -traumatic stress disorder from the closet.

[775] Well, that too.

[776] I cleaned it up a year ago, it was beautiful.

[777] Then within the year, it's gotten a little out of hand again.

[778] Sure.

[779] Years a long time.

[780] I had to completely fix that.

[781] I had to clean my refrigerator.

[782] I made an herb basket.

[783] Well, I don't know if everyone's up to speed on the fact that you're a professional gourmet chef now and that you cook seven nights a week.

[784] I cook a lot.

[785] It's really impressive.

[786] What are you going to cook tonight?

[787] I'm going to cook a fish.

[788] Oh, yuck.

[789] In your apartment.

[790] Don't say yuck.

[791] Don't yuck, my yum.

[792] That's a bad idea.

[793] No, it's not.

[794] Cooking fish inside of an apartment is one of the world's worst ideas.

[795] I'm going to open the windows.

[796] Listen.

[797] Oh, my God.

[798] Oh, my God.

[799] Listen, my chef guru, Alison Roman, wants me to cook more fish.

[800] And indoors.

[801] And she said, she said one of the main things that people fear is, is it going to make my apartment smell?

[802] No, it's not.

[803] Okay.

[804] You know why it's the main thing people fear?

[805] Because 100 times out of 100, your whole house.

[806] stinks like a catfish.

[807] It's not catfish.

[808] It's going to be cod, and cod is very light.

[809] It is.

[810] It's not a fishy fish.

[811] Cod is it feels like an interesting choice, because isn't that basically what you get at McDonald's and a flay of fish?

[812] No. Yeah.

[813] Wait, no, probably tilapia.

[814] Fish sticks.

[815] No, fish sticks and filet fish are cod.

[816] Oh.

[817] It's a very affordable fish.

[818] It wasn't that affordable.

[819] Then you got ripped off because it's a real cheap fish.

[820] No, I got a nice one.

[821] Stop doing this to my fish lands.

[822] I'm going to make it.

[823] It's a tomato poached fish, and it is going to be delicious.

[824] What does that mean tomato poached?

[825] You poach it in tomato.

[826] Yeah, but I guess I don't, I'm thinking of poaching an egg.

[827] Oh, no, like it cooks within the tomato sauce, juice, garlic.

[828] shall it.

[829] Some other stuff.

[830] I haven't looked up the recipe in a bit.

[831] Well, some of that might mask the smell, but I am, I'm going to tell you one of my new fears, which is, you know what people stink, they've passed their expiration date, like they have B .O. And they don't have time for a shower.

[832] So what they do is they pop some cologne all over themselves.

[833] Yeah.

[834] And then smear their antiperspirant on over the smell.

[835] Okay.

[836] Go on.

[837] And now you just have a ton of smells and the B .O. It just doesn't go away.

[838] And then it's like an ambrosia or a cacophony of smells or a cornucopia of smells.

[839] And I'm a little worried about that for you.

[840] I know what you're talking about.

[841] It's like when people tried to spray over their bowel movements.

[842] That's right.

[843] Yeah.

[844] And it's extra bad.

[845] Just leave the raw bowel movement.

[846] Yeah.

[847] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[848] Shouldn't have said raw.

[849] Ew, yeah.

[850] That was horrible.

[851] Yeah.

[852] Okay.

[853] But I agree.

[854] The pure, the pure movement smell.

[855] And don't.

[856] Don't try to perfume that pig, as they say.

[857] I agree about the BM, but not about the fish.

[858] Can we agree upon a non -biased judge that will stop by tomorrow morning?

[859] We can appoint somebody.

[860] And we won't tell them anything.

[861] We're not going to say a goddamn thing.

[862] We're just going to say, we're asking a favor.

[863] You stop by Monicas in the morning.

[864] Anything seems mentionable.

[865] You tell us.

[866] If not, thank you.

[867] And if they say, yeah, I went to Monicas.

[868] man, it smelled like a, smell like an alley cat's fish.

[869] No!

[870] Okay.

[871] Well, listen, listen, listen.

[872] It's going to smell good.

[873] She promised, and I trust her.

[874] I think you are extra sensitive to fish.

[875] You hated the idea of anchovies.

[876] You don't like salmon, which is crazy.

[877] I acknowledge that.

[878] And I cook salmon in here a fair amount, and I'm fine with it.

[879] Didn't you tell me you had a problem with one of these fish fries?

[880] though, that it did reek like fish?

[881] No, no, that was the chicken.

[882] I know you stank.

[883] Well, I know you stank it up with some yard bird, but I thought you also had a fish mishap, a mix -up.

[884] Uh -uh.

[885] I so far haven't had any fish problems.

[886] How about this?

[887] Could we agree that if you have the option, just why not cook it outside?

[888] Like on the grill?

[889] No. I can't tomato poach outside.

[890] Oh.

[891] And that's the prep.

[892] That's a preparation of my choosing.

[893] Okay.

[894] I have to cook it today because I took it out of the fridge.

[895] I mean, out of the freezer a couple of days ago.

[896] I am a little worried about that part.

[897] Oh, boy.

[898] Wait, no, I think it's fine.

[899] I'll stop.

[900] You're making me scared.

[901] It's been on the counter for two days?

[902] It's thawed.

[903] It thawed a while ago.

[904] It's been in the fridge.

[905] Oh, man. Does your fridge stink at all?

[906] No, it smells great.

[907] Well, all those herbs are in there.

[908] Yeah, my herbs.

[909] basket makes it smell so good.

[910] I have a lettuce basket and an herb basket.

[911] Okay, the lettuce basket is a box, but still, it has its own place.

[912] It's impressive.

[913] It looks like a professional chef's fridge.

[914] When you saw a picture of it, you said I had too many vegetables.

[915] No one says that.

[916] Well, my concern was no one person could eat that many vegetables in the time horizon that vegetables stay good.

[917] Yeah.

[918] I tend to try to get three or four extra days out of fish, a couple weeks out of the veggies.

[919] I do overestim.

[920] How old is this tomato you're going to be poaching the old fish with?

[921] I said, don't call it old fish.

[922] Day old fish.

[923] Well, day old isn't bad?

[924] Well, then they slash prices on like day old donuts, day old bread.

[925] Day old, day old is usually signaling that you're going to get a deal.

[926] As I said, it wasn't cheap.

[927] Well, again, I think you got ripped off because it's a very inexpensive fish, that's why it's in fish sticks and playa fish.

[928] Let me look up right now, actually.

[929] This is a good fact.

[930] Okay.

[931] Real time fact.

[932] Yeah.

[933] What kind of fish is in a filet of fish?

[934] Is in a filet of fish McDonald's.

[935] You're not going to like this answer.

[936] Not cod.

[937] Alaskan Polack.

[938] I bet that's a cod.

[939] Let's see.

[940] Hold on.

[941] What is Alaskan Polack?

[942] Yeah.

[943] a Polack.

[944] Oh, fuck.

[945] It's a species of cod.

[946] Yeah.

[947] Yep.

[948] Yep.

[949] That was a long walk back to cod.

[950] And that even sounds fancier than the cod you bought.

[951] You just got cod.

[952] No, it's not.

[953] COD.

[954] I got Fancy Cod on deposit.

[955] How dare you.

[956] Cash on delivery.

[957] Cod Cod.

[958] You could do the same for fish sticks and you're going to find it's cod across the board.

[959] That's fine.

[960] I love fish sticks.

[961] Yeah.

[962] Absolutely.

[963] They're what make America run.

[964] But it's just not a, you're so gourmet right now, and it's, it's tuna fish.

[965] Well, I love tuna fish.

[966] Also, the reason she picked cod as this recipe is because it's not very fishy, which is why it's in fish sticks and why it's in filet of fish.

[967] Yeah.

[968] Well, and how cheap it is.

[969] No. I'm going to find out.

[970] Hold on.

[971] Top five most inexpensive fish.

[972] Okay, okay.

[973] If this makes the list, you're in trouble.

[974] No, I'm not.

[975] It's supposed to be on the cheaper end.

[976] Well, now you're changing your story.

[977] You said you paid really good money for this cot.

[978] No, but like, yeah, compared to halibut.

[979] But it wasn't cheap.

[980] It wasn't like five bucks.

[981] It was like 25.

[982] Oh, it didn't do inexpensive.

[983] It said expensive.

[984] Inexensive.

[985] I should have just said cheap fish.

[986] Budget friendly.

[987] fish.

[988] Well, skate apparently is cheap, catfish.

[989] We knew that.

[990] Which type of fish is the cheapest?

[991] This is a bad category to be looking at.

[992] White flesh fish is usually inexpensive, has a mild flavor, cooks quickly.

[993] That's going to, oh, the most popular kinds of white fish include cod, talapia, attic, catfish, grouper, bass, and snapper.

[994] Okay.

[995] All right.

[996] Okay.

[997] This is like the third time in three weeks you've yucked my yum.

[998] Well, no, hold on.

[999] Hold on.

[1000] You weren't eating it and I wasn't going, ooh, I hate fish.

[1001] I'm telling you that it's an inexpensive fish, which is great.

[1002] You said, you said yuck when I said what I was making.

[1003] You literally said yuck.

[1004] But you hadn't said yum.

[1005] I said, I'm excited.

[1006] I'm making a fish tonight.

[1007] And I'm still excited.

[1008] I'm not going to let you yuck it.

[1009] I know.

[1010] I'm not trying to.

[1011] I just was worried about the smell in there, but now I'm over it.

[1012] It's going to be great.

[1013] Speaking of animals, this is Jane Goodall's episode.

[1014] Oh, my God.

[1015] I'm glad we weren't talking about steak.

[1016] That would have been really counter.

[1017] Or bush meat.

[1018] What's that?

[1019] That's eating of primates.

[1020] Oh, no. People do that?

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] You know, well, where meat is really scarce, they will eat primates.

[1025] And primates are supposed to taste terrible.

[1026] Yeah, because isn't the, like, so mussely.

[1027] It's that we're so tendin -y.

[1028] I guess we taste really rubber bandy.

[1029] Ew, gross.

[1030] Okay.

[1031] Is what my anthro teacher, Joan Barker, told me. It's what army.

[1032] I don't know if she had tried, well, I hope she hadn't tried any primate.

[1033] I started to make a joke, but then I, I stopped.

[1034] What was your joke?

[1035] I started to say, is that what Army Hammer told you?

[1036] Oh, that's a topical joke.

[1037] It's a topical joke, but I have very mixed feelings on that whole thing.

[1038] Oh, mine aren't mixed.

[1039] Mine are very, very clear.

[1040] Yeah, I know.

[1041] I can assume what yours are.

[1042] Mine are pretty much what yours are, I think.

[1043] Like, well, I don't know all the details, so I don't want to, like, get us in trouble.

[1044] Yeah, let's just take the thing we're talking about, which is the part we understand is that he had written sexual text messages expressing a desire to eat somebody.

[1045] And we were told it was consensual.

[1046] Right.

[1047] So that's our understanding.

[1048] And I have no problem with anybody's weird sexual fantasy.

[1049] I have a big problem with someone eating somebody.

[1050] But, you know, you can have as kinky of thoughts as you want.

[1051] If your partner wants to pretend that you're going to eat each other, what the fuck does that have to do with any of us?

[1052] I agree.

[1053] I thought it was extreme what was happening.

[1054] If it was consensual, if it wasn't, and he was, like, harassing people and trying to tell them that he wanted to eat them, like, mate, that's a different story, but that doesn't seem like that was the case, but I don't know.

[1055] Well, we can get into it much, like, that's an easy position for us to take, I think.

[1056] The harder one is, I do believe part of the issue is that it was consensual and that some of these gales now regret it and say there was a power imbalance and now they don't, they're not happy that they participated in that.

[1057] And that's a really tricky subject that I have probably a bad opinion on.

[1058] I don't think we can function as a society if you can retract consent.

[1059] I actually don't think it can function if you can tell someone to their face, yes I consent and then later say no I don't consent that's no but it's if you feel like you have to say yes it's way more complicated but in this case I don't think he had power it wasn't like he was employing these people or he was no but I think people will argue that because someone's famous that they inherently have a power imbalance of over anyone else.

[1060] And that's tricky for me. I don't think that would hold up.

[1061] If that person literally had power, like could control their job or their well -being in some, I don't know.

[1062] But if just saying that that person's famous gives them power, doesn't, I don't think that really holds any water.

[1063] They don't actually have power over you.

[1064] Whereas bosses and stuff like that do.

[1065] Yeah, I guess I'm just saying if we live in a society where consent can be retracted, then if someone gives you consent real time and very genuinely and honestly and earnestly, you then have to say, no, you don't?

[1066] Like, how do you proceed in life in a paradigm where if someone tells you they want to do something and you do it with them?

[1067] you're supposed to what assume their consent isn't real that also feels weird and controlling and dismissive and well no i think you just have to be cognizant of the relationships you pursue if you're pursuing one with your employee maybe don't because you never know what is happening there oh yeah employer employee of course but i'm talking just two people two people meet they have a relationship and the guy says, I want to be kinky and do S &M.

[1068] Yeah.

[1069] And the person says, I do too.

[1070] I'd like to try that.

[1071] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1072] And then they didn't enjoy it.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] And then later they say, I retract consent.

[1075] I was forced, you know.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] I think these cases are a little more nuance in that, but I don't know enough about the Army Hammer one to, like, really say.

[1078] I don't think him being famous is...

[1079] gives him power personally.

[1080] Right.

[1081] Unless he, unless they were like actresses and he was calling them in for meetings and stuff like that.

[1082] Well, that would be grody.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Yeah, but I don't, people have kinky thoughts, but I don't want him to really eat anyone.

[1085] No, nobody should eat anyone.

[1086] Like, women have rape fantasies and they work out rape fantasies with their partners.

[1087] is they don't want to be raped.

[1088] Yeah.

[1089] That's fine if they want to express that fear in that way.

[1090] Yeah.

[1091] But they don't want to be raped.

[1092] Yeah.

[1093] And so you could be working out this thing that, yeah, you want to be consumed.

[1094] What's deeper than it, I think, if you want to get emotional about it, is like, I think the statement is, I'm so into you that I would consume you.

[1095] And I would never want to consume a person, but I am so into you.

[1096] But that's the benign version of it, right?

[1097] because these texts were explicit.

[1098] Like they were...

[1099] They're dark.

[1100] They were dark.

[1101] But...

[1102] Did it make you horny for them?

[1103] No. Oh.

[1104] It did make me like, whoa, this...

[1105] That's a lot.

[1106] Yeah.

[1107] Yeah.

[1108] I guess the only thing I can see with the...

[1109] What I could see happening that's uncomfortable is if I was flirting, texting with someone.

[1110] Uh -huh.

[1111] And it was like...

[1112] really fun and playful, and we were, like, days in and we were really into it.

[1113] And then it took a quick turn into something very dark.

[1114] Yeah.

[1115] That would be uncomfortable.

[1116] Like, it would be really, it would be hard, although, of course, I'd have to say, like, oh, I'm not into that.

[1117] Yeah.

[1118] But it...

[1119] But if you wrote back, yeah, I want to eat your spleen, you know, what on earth is the other person supposed to assume other than if that happened to you that exact same thing you would just not respond probably when it got weird or you might even say oh i don't i don't want to eat anyone and i don't want to be eaten whatever you wouldn't then think i should embarrass this person like i should tell people that this happened i would not i would not unless i was really feeling threatened in some way or like you know if something was getting out of control.

[1120] There is it not, I wouldn't want to embarrass someone, but I would potentially need to say something to other people if it was getting out of hand.

[1121] If I felt in danger or threatened or harassed.

[1122] Can we role play?

[1123] And I'm going to do, I'm going to go somewhere where I would have to put up a red flag.

[1124] Okay.

[1125] Okay.

[1126] Okay.

[1127] Hey, what are you doing?

[1128] I'm organizing.

[1129] Oh, you're in your house.

[1130] You're in your house?

[1131] Yep.

[1132] What are you wearing?

[1133] Yep.

[1134] What do you wearing?

[1135] Smiley face.

[1136] I'm wearing a sweatshirt and thick socks and no pants.

[1137] All right.

[1138] This is what I'm going to write.

[1139] That's so kinky to wear big thick socks and no pants.

[1140] I'd love to bring over 15 pounds of cod and stink up your kitchen.

[1141] And take them.

[1142] socks off once it's nice and stinking in there.

[1143] And then I would go, I do not consent to this.

[1144] Wait, you said it.

[1145] I was doing, I was painting one where I would have to.

[1146] Oh, that was confusing.

[1147] If I were you.

[1148] So I was you when I was wearing the sweatshirt and I was organizing.

[1149] Yeah, which I was what I do all the time.

[1150] I didn't, I didn't know that.

[1151] I wouldn't have been organizing or wearing a sweatshirt with no pants on.

[1152] Well, I'm just, I was getting, I wanted to send the text that I would have to send up a flare.

[1153] Yeah.

[1154] And you wouldn't like it if someone said they were going to bring a lot of cod over.

[1155] Like 13, 14 pounds of cod and really stink up the place.

[1156] And then work those socks off.

[1157] And then tie the socks around the cod.

[1158] Really, what would you say?

[1159] You wouldn't just say, oh, if...

[1160] I'd be really nice.

[1161] Yeah, you'd have...

[1162] You would be cognizant of the person's feelings.

[1163] I'm also, um, I'm also radical.

[1164] I would probably go along with any.

[1165] just see what this whole thing's about like see i guess that's where things get a little tricky because what if like what if i was texting with someone and then they took it to a really dark place and it was really playful and i guess you could think for a bit that it was still like you could think for a while it was still playful until you were like oh shit no it's not but i've already been sort of playing along because i thought it was that now it's not But now I have to say, no, I don't like it, but I did play along for a bit.

[1166] Yeah, but like, so what?

[1167] So all that is is like it's flirting that didn't pan out.

[1168] Like it's like when someone goes up and says, what's your name at the bar?

[1169] And then they say something corny and you don't like it.

[1170] And it ends.

[1171] Like, so it's just like this escalation.

[1172] And then it doesn't click for you.

[1173] And that's that.

[1174] Yeah, that's true.

[1175] It's not like a moral issue.

[1176] It's just like, oh, we're not compatible.

[1177] and the fantasy thing.

[1178] You've got all this fish you're trying to unload and you want to cook it at my house and I'm not going to be able to truthfully say I want to live out this fantasy with you.

[1179] Jane Goodall.

[1180] Poor Jane Goodall.

[1181] She deserves so much more than this.

[1182] It was a natural flow as a ding, ding, ding.

[1183] Okay.

[1184] What we both really loved about Jane Goodall is she's kind of taken this not by her choice.

[1185] She has the role of like Queen of the planet.

[1186] Yeah.

[1187] And yet, she's so spunky.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] That was my favorite.

[1190] I know.

[1191] I loved when she told you you weren't capable of taking care of her stuffed animal chimp because you called it a teddy bear.

[1192] Exactly.

[1193] It's like, you can't take care of it if you don't even know the difference between a chimp and a bear.

[1194] Yeah, you can't have it.

[1195] That's why she'd be fine with us talking about the texting.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] She'd probably like it.

[1198] Maybe she'll even, maybe she'll even get a hold of us so she can voice her opinion on it.

[1199] I think I know her opinion.

[1200] Well, no, I definitely don't know her opinion on the sex part, but she's definitely not into eating humans or primates or animals at all.

[1201] Well, we also know her opinion on the sex team that was involving bringing fish over because she's a vegetarian.

[1202] She would not want you to bring fish over and cook it.

[1203] I wonder if she cares as much about fish.

[1204] Well, she said the only thing she could possibly eat what maybe the insects, yeah.

[1205] Ding, ding, ding, dang, yeah.

[1206] Why ding, ding, ding.

[1207] I don't know.

[1208] I just wanted to say it because insects.

[1209] Oh, insects?

[1210] Oh, my God, ding, ding, ding.

[1211] Oh, my gosh.

[1212] Okay, so how many times more harmful is methane gas than CO2?

[1213] Well, I know this now.

[1214] Yeah, because of Bill's book.

[1215] yes how to avoid climate disaster okay i'll read this this is from unicep you tell me if your number in your head is different from bill's book there's like three that go around but go go ahead okay methane is a powerful greenhouse gas with a hundred year old global warming potential 25 times that of co2 measured over a 20 year period methane is 84 times more potent as a greenhouse gas than co2 about 60 % of global methane emissions are due to huge human activities.

[1216] What does Bill say?

[1217] I think he says 28, and I had heard 32.

[1218] That was another number that everyone agreed upon.

[1219] But I think where it gets tricky is the only upside of methane is that it doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long as carbon.

[1220] So carbon dioxide has a really long half -life, whereas methane doesn't.

[1221] So even though it's heating it more, it'll go way quicker.

[1222] Yeah.

[1223] But the thing that was really that we read in the book, nitrous oxide, which is also a byproduct, that is like two or three hundred times as warming than CO2.

[1224] Yeah.

[1225] We're going to talk to him.

[1226] Can't wait.

[1227] This week, right?

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Oh, my God.

[1230] I'm so scared.

[1231] I'm so scared.

[1232] Ding, ding, ding.

[1233] There's a really funny friends moment where Ross can't flirt and he's trying to flirt with the girl who's delivering his pizza.

[1234] And he, huh, actually, I wonder if this doesn't hold up in 2021.

[1235] Oh, nothing does, but continue.

[1236] He keeps calling.

[1237] Sure, stocky.

[1238] He keeps having her come back so he can keep practice flirting.

[1239] He can try to get better each time.

[1240] And he starts talking about gas and how different gases smell.

[1241] Oh, wow.

[1242] Methane smells.

[1243] It's really funny.

[1244] Oh, I love that show.

[1245] I'm going to start from the beginning.

[1246] Oh, wow.

[1247] How many episodes are there, 200?

[1248] At least.

[1249] Why don't I know that?

[1250] Well, how many seasons was it on?

[1251] It was 10, but in season 5, they hit 100.

[1252] But then there's fewer episodes in the later season.

[1253] So I bet it's not quite 100.

[1254] Well, if there's 10 seasons and they average 20 episodes a season, which they had to have, it's got to be 200.

[1255] 236.

[1256] Yeah, I was going to say they probably average, like the normal order was probably, 24 and they might have cut it to 20 or 22 in the latter seasons they never there's no way they ever went under 20 18 18 was their shortest 18 season 10 okay I bet season 9 is 18 I wonder if that was like because people were doing movies why on earth would that be it was a cash cow oh nine is 24 so 10 was the shortest and that was 18 I think they were ready to be done And they just, the network wanted it so bad that they were, and they were getting paid a million dollars an episode each.

[1257] That's pretty good money.

[1258] Yeah, it's, it's pretty good.

[1259] It's okay.

[1260] That's really all I had for Jane.

[1261] No kidding, methane.

[1262] Yeah, because she, she knows her stuff, you know?

[1263] She knows her shit, yeah.

[1264] Yeah.

[1265] I mean, there was a question of how many roots and shoots, but she explained why we don't know that.

[1266] Because, like, they're just kind of sprouted.

[1267] up all over the place, so I couldn't really check it.

[1268] Very scatty, wampus, yeah, very wampus.

[1269] Very scatty and very wampus.

[1270] Extra wampus and pretty darn scatty.

[1271] All right, well, this was fun, and then I'll be home in two clicks.

[1272] Two clicks away?

[1273] Yeah, I'll put the pedal down, get right home.

[1274] I'm driving a Hellcat Durango.

[1275] Ooh.

[1276] So I'm sitting on about 710 horsepower.

[1277] Oh, my God.

[1278] So you can really get up those mountain roads.

[1279] But it's snowy.

[1280] It sure is.

[1281] So you can't go that fast, right?

[1282] Pretty fast, yeah.

[1283] It's got all -wheel drive, very stable, really good car.

[1284] Okay.

[1285] Yeah.

[1286] I got here and the weather was worse than it will be when I go home.

[1287] Okay.

[1288] And what are Rob and Jethro driving?

[1289] Rob's driving his huge sprinter van.

[1290] That's all decked out.

[1291] It's hysterical.

[1292] It's very cool.

[1293] and Jethro is driving a Subaru Outback, which I know he's not thrilled about.

[1294] Oh, it's not his pick.

[1295] No, he too likes horsepower.

[1296] He's a horsepower addict.

[1297] He's a cowboy?

[1298] Yes.

[1299] Yeah.

[1300] On the steel horse he rides.

[1301] Remember when we interviewed John Jovi?

[1302] Yes, I'll never forget.

[1303] JJ.

[1304] J .J. All right.

[1305] All right.

[1306] I love you.

[1307] Love you.

[1308] Have fun cooking your fish.

[1309] Yep.

[1310] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1311] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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