Alanis Morissette

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Monsoon.

[3] Hi there.

[4] So this episode was supposed to come on a Monday.

[5] Yes, it was.

[6] We kicked it down the road a little bit.

[7] We did.

[8] But here we are.

[9] Here we are.

[10] It's incumbent upon us to point out that this was recorded before the many George Floyd protests and everything that's happening.

[11] So please don't interpret Alanis or our lack of bringing it up as a lack of concern or science.

[12] Yes.

[13] Yeah.

[14] And we don't address it in the fact check either.

[15] This episode has nothing to do with what is currently happening.

[16] And there'll be a few of these.

[17] We have a few in the can.

[18] So with all that said, Alanis Morset, you know, she's a seven -time Grammy winner.

[19] Jaggy Little Pill, billions of copies sold.

[20] And we get to talk to her about her new album and all the incredibly detailed and diligent work she does for mental health.

[21] So please enjoy Miss Alanis Morset.

[22] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[23] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[24] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[25] He's an armchair expert.

[26] This is Soa.

[27] Hi.

[28] Bye.

[29] I love you.

[30] I love you.

[31] Wait.

[32] Who is that?

[33] My husband.

[34] That's your husband.

[35] What'd you call him, though?

[36] Soy.

[37] Solai.

[38] Soy sauce.

[39] Oh, the classic pet name.

[40] Everybody knows now.

[41] I call him soul.

[42] Soul.

[43] I like that.

[44] How long has that been?

[45] You guys have been together, what, like 11 years or something?

[46] Yeah, 10.

[47] You?

[48] We're approaching 13.

[49] Wow.

[50] If we make it in isolation, we'll see.

[51] Yeah, you know what?

[52] A lot of divorce is happening.

[53] You know what?

[54] Because those of us who want to exit, those of us who are flighters, we can't flight.

[55] So what are you going to do?

[56] Go into the next room and brood, I guess, while.

[57] I'm laughing, but it's not funny.

[58] Oh, no, I had a good few days where I was like, okay, where am I going?

[59] I'm definitely moving out of this house.

[60] Okay.

[61] Because I also have PPD right now, postpartum activity, I call it.

[62] So I just kind of announced lovingly as best as possible when I go into a room.

[63] I'm cranky mom right now or, um, you said everyone's expectations appropriately.

[64] I like that.

[65] I like that.

[66] By the way, one of the biggest breakthroughs in my wife and I's relationship was the therapist said look dax is an ex -addock he's a scumb bag he always thinks he's in trouble you have depression you're prone to get quiet when you're quiet he thinks he's in trouble he doesn't deserve to be in turn he's like all you got to do to stop this cycle is just tell him hey this has nothing to do with you i just have depression and from literally that's all it took for me at least i mean there are other issues of course we're married but but that was a huge one just a cycle of her being quiet me thinking i'm in trouble then me thinking of something then being mad at her because I'm in trouble and I didn't do anything, you know.

[67] The theory is that if you're wounded in the same ways and you're committed and there's intimacy, there's going to be healing.

[68] But if there's no commitment or there's no intimacy, there's no healing.

[69] So now we're in the hot kitchen painted right into the corner.

[70] And I guess that's when for us, too, we've had some major breakthroughs during this time.

[71] It's basically not being able to get out of the hot kitchen.

[72] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[73] I mean, it is the ultimate test of a commitment.

[74] For me, there's these three phases.

[75] So the first phase is infatuation.

[76] you're all over each other, you can't get enough.

[77] Second phase is you realize this is the relationship of your nightmares and you're fighting all the time.

[78] And I think that's when most people break up.

[79] Yeah.

[80] And then in theory, the third phase is when you actually participate and help each other out.

[81] Yeah.

[82] But it is truly hard to help your partner out because, well, I'll just speak for myself.

[83] They stop becoming a human.

[84] Like I have to actively stare at my wife and go, oh, this is a person.

[85] She's a little girl that grew up.

[86] and she has needs and desires, but we're in this business relationship where we're raising two kids.

[87] And it's really easy to just recognize, oh, she handles X, Y, and Z. I handle A, B, and C. This is all working.

[88] And, man, I got to regularly go, oh, she has needs just like I do.

[89] She exists.

[90] Yeah.

[91] She's a real person other than the mother of my children and my wife.

[92] Right.

[93] And how old are your kids?

[94] They are five and seven.

[95] Oh, yeah.

[96] So we're all still.

[97] in the trenches.

[98] My father said, you know, don't worry about it.

[99] Just the first 60 years of the hardest.

[100] So basically, we cut each other slack for the, oh my God, we're all overwhelmed.

[101] When I read about you today and I looked at the order of your children, it gave me enormous anxiety because you had your second one six years after the first, because we have a five and a half year old and it's now manageable.

[102] You know, she can actually get cereal for herself and stuff.

[103] The notion of a newborn in my house right now is terrifying.

[104] Even though I loved the experience of it.

[105] Just the thought of it is terrifying.

[106] So how'd you end up doing it in that order?

[107] Well, not all of it was the ideal situation.

[108] I had a bunch of miscarriages, had a malar pregnancy.

[109] We were chasing and just showing up and then surprises and then devastations and you know, all of it.

[110] But I mean, I do trust.

[111] I have this trust pilot -like thing that keeps cooking along.

[112] Even when there's a torrential downpour, it's still flickering of hope and faith.

[113] and vision for something to work out, whatever it is.

[114] Are you an optimist by nature, or are you a pessimist?

[115] I'm a cynical optimist.

[116] Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[117] That sounds like a smart optimist.

[118] Well, thanks for that.

[119] I'm an optimist who will get depressed and cry, but at the end of the day, there's still that little light, that little star of Bethlehem keeps dangling over there.

[120] You know, one of the theories is that in relationships, conflict is growth trying to happen.

[121] But I think the message we're sent in movies and songs and everything is that if we're fighting, we should break up.

[122] Yeah, yeah.

[123] Whereas I got dumped so many times because we'd start to fight and I would be thinking, you know, this is it.

[124] We're getting in.

[125] Oh, we're growing.

[126] And they would just be like, yeah, I liked it when I was just happy with you.

[127] Yeah, your loud chewing was cute.

[128] And now all of a sudden I see it for what it is, very loud chewing.

[129] On my nerves.

[130] Well, Harville Hendricks and Helen Le Kelly Hunt, who created the whole Amago model, they say that most couples don't really get into feeling really, really safe if there's some level of trauma.

[131] Let's be honest, there's a level of trauma in 98%.

[132] Who are these 2 % of people that were not traumatized, by the way?

[133] I want to talk about it.

[134] But yeah, they're saying that it takes up to, on average, seven to eight years before couples start to really kind of get into the good stuff, so to speak.

[135] Wow.

[136] We had Nadine Burke Harris on, who's the California Surgeon General, and we were talking about childhood trauma.

[137] It's out of Tanright, and I think I was a seven, as I recall.

[138] And all of my friends from home, I'm like, listen to this episode we did.

[139] I want your number.

[140] I didn't cohort with anyone under seven.

[141] Like, we all found each other, you know?

[142] Yeah, well, we're like magnets.

[143] I think where we are intellectually, where we are sometimes emotionally, and where we are with our level of degree of trauma or woundedness is like a magnet.

[144] Yeah.

[145] You know, really close.

[146] friend of mine is getting sober and we've been kind of doing this stuff together and we started to talk about friendships and stuff.

[147] And this hadn't occurred to me until just talking to him about this.

[148] But this is a clue.

[149] Like I would have defined one of the most important characteristics of friendship to be loyalty.

[150] And it was identical to my friend who was newly sober.

[151] And if he started looking at all of his friendship connections right now, loyalty is the number one thing.

[152] And I was like, you know, when I think about it, the longer I've been sober, loyalty is.

[153] not a very big deal to me anymore.

[154] Like, I don't need someone to be loyal to me. And I think it's very related to at the time I felt like such a piece of shit and my secrets were so dark that I needed to know you'd be there despite what a scumbag I am.

[155] And now that I'm not really that big of a scumbag, like, I'd rather have someone who's funny than loyal.

[156] I'd rather have someone who's generous than loyal.

[157] Is that true, though?

[158] Yes, I think it's diminished.

[159] Because people hang out with people, they don't like anything about them other than that they're very loyal.

[160] I don't know that that's the greatest basis for a friendship is that that's the number one reason to like someone.

[161] And there's not going to be enough compatibility.

[162] But I think being in a friendship where you where you're on eggshells and you don't feel safe, that's not awesome.

[163] That's not going to be a friendship.

[164] The bottom line of the loyalty conversation was like, I need a friend that when the shit hits the fan they're there.

[165] Well, guess what?

[166] When the shit's not hitting the fan anymore, that's just not the most important part of the friendship.

[167] Like for me, the shit used to hit the fan a lot.

[168] I had to call people like, fucking get over here right now.

[169] You know, I'm down.

[170] I'm down.

[171] But yeah, man down.

[172] Yes.

[173] Let's not call that loyalty then.

[174] This might be a semantics thing, but it probably is.

[175] Let's not call that loyalty.

[176] Let's just call that straight up maybe enabling or could have been here, all those fun words.

[177] But yeah, loyalty at a huge cost is not really loyalty.

[178] There's something else going on there.

[179] Loyal just means, hey, man, I know you and we're both on our deathbeds at 122.

[180] And if you need my help, I'll be right there holding.

[181] Yeah.

[182] To me, that's loyal.

[183] Yeah.

[184] And I'll show up to move your furniture.

[185] with you.

[186] And if you ever have a problem, you can call me, but I'm not going to help you get rid of a body.

[187] Like, those days are over.

[188] That's what's my point.

[189] I definitely don't think that's what loyalty.

[190] You're so over that right now.

[191] No, that's not loyalty.

[192] That's, that's criminality.

[193] So both parents or teachers, your dad was a principal, yeah?

[194] Yep, still was up until a few years ago.

[195] And then Catholic school, the whole ride, just from who I am, looking at that environment, It would have made me a dualistic really quick.

[196] Like I would have just felt not worthy of that kind of like teacher parents, Catholic school.

[197] I just feel like there would have been a side of me. They didn't feel accepted by those environments.

[198] Do you mean like the bar was said high and there was perfectionism and stuff like that?

[199] Yeah, I would guess perfectionism.

[200] Yeah.

[201] Expectations of you probably.

[202] Yeah, those were all there.

[203] And then maybe like some restrictive morality.

[204] Yeah, the thing about Catholicism too is for me, having gotten out, I didn't want to throw the god baby out with the bathwater, you know, like so many beautiful things within Catholicism and then so many horrifying things that were so separatist and so divisive and ouch.

[205] So what I did is I step back and I just kind of Houston Smith just researched everything I possibly could about as many religions as I could and I'm a quarter Jewish.

[206] Didn't know that.

[207] I only found that out about 10 years ago.

[208] There's a threat of continuity through every religion that I've ever read about.

[209] So much of it speaks about.

[210] Experience some way.

[211] version of oneness.

[212] They all have a different word for it, which is a real challenge for some of us in the West, the challenge of what do we do in the midst of uncertainty?

[213] Because as humans, my ego wants to concretize and get, you know, I know it's happening next week.

[214] I know, you know, you know.

[215] Control.

[216] Control.

[217] I've been in recovery for various whack -a -mole things for years, too, and it's just like we want to afford ourselves some relief or some out breath, you know, and so much of what we're chasing and all these addictions is some sense of relief.

[218] I've been really happy about this trend lately, being a lot more merciful with addictions and basically seeing how much we're just reaching out for some out breath.

[219] Now, when I think of a high school principal, of course, I go to my high school principal and the other principals I was aware of in my district.

[220] And to me, it seems like it's such a crazy dynamic that when you're the principal or a superintendent, there has to be this pressure that your children are the example that you're trying to set in the school.

[221] Yes.

[222] Unless you're like you're some crazy of all person.

[223] I don't know how that wouldn't be in the mix.

[224] Well, we all have our survival strategies too.

[225] And the one that gets the most kind of overt acting out attention is the rebellion or the scapegoat or the fuck you.

[226] But for me, because I love education.

[227] So thankfully, I was getting straight A's in school.

[228] Okay.

[229] But one of the survival strategies for so many of us is also to just try to be the best kid and get really depressed about the B minus.

[230] and, you know, so I actually have a really soft spot for those who people say, oh, you never have to worry about her or him.

[231] They're fine.

[232] They're so responsive.

[233] You know, those are the ones that I'm like, oh, God, they're going to blow.

[234] Because if you think of it in terms of energy, the ones who are maybe more rebellious and act out, they're moving the energy.

[235] They're processing it in some way, I guess.

[236] Yeah.

[237] Somehow getting out of their body, but the ones who are kind of keeping everything bound and imploding.

[238] I was an imploder for so long, so people would be like, wow, you know, your songs are so intense and they're fire and they're angry and then we meet you, you know, you're kind of a people pleaser and you're, you know, and I would just be like, well, yeah, the thing about writing for me is that I can go to a studio, write everything I want, no censorship, put it out, and it was almost like a circuitous route to get the energy movie, but over a period of years found that it was very cathartic to write and perform, but it wasn't healing because I would sing the same songs over and over about specific people and had those people walked into the room, I still would have freaked out.

[239] So I've come to learn that I actually have to speak to human beings and I can't run away and just write about it or take a photo about it and call it a day.

[240] Yeah.

[241] Well, funny enough, we were interviewing Ed Helms.

[242] He's very, like he's a Southern boy, and he dresses nice for an interview.

[243] Yet the instrument he plays as a banjo, which by his own admission is like the most obnoxious instrument you can play in a circle of, you know, and then his characters are obnoxious.

[244] And it's like, isn't it interesting how like, in a way that...

[245] How it gets up, like Steve Martin.

[246] Like that instrument, too, is a rebellious instrument.

[247] Yes, yes.

[248] It's almost like an obtuse.

[249] It's a fuck you instrument.

[250] Yeah, and it doesn't even have the same, like the strings aren't done in the way that all the other stringed instruments are.

[251] You're like, it's old.

[252] It's a fuck you.

[253] In a jara that's a fuck you genre in a beautiful way.

[254] Yeah, and the bluegrass, the ultimate fuck you in the middle of a fuck you.

[255] The winner of female vocalist in the fuck you's genre of music goes to.

[256] Do you and your twin have similar personalities or were you guys like opposite sides of a coin?

[257] Depends.

[258] In some ways, we'll finish each other's sentences.

[259] We used to go camping a lot and we were on this island camping with a bunch of our friends.

[260] One night sitting around the fire and he was saying things to me. me. And I responded and I said, yeah, absolutely.

[261] I agree.

[262] And they all turned to me and they said, agree with what?

[263] Because no one had been speaking, but my brother and I had just been like, oh, chatting.

[264] Yeah.

[265] Yeah.

[266] Yeah.

[267] So yes, we have that.

[268] And then we're also really different.

[269] I mean, we're fraternal, so two different eggs.

[270] Sure.

[271] Which is, you know, still twins, because you're in the womb together.

[272] But you've certainly been asked if your brother's your identical twin, right?

[273] Over the years.

[274] Oh, yeah.

[275] And I'm like, well, That would require an end up a little different.

[276] So milk, milk, lemonade around the corner of Fuzzlement.

[277] So anyways.

[278] I was going to say.

[279] But, you know, as a kid, you started really quickly pursuing this, or what I would say, a very, very young age, right?

[280] You start playing piano at like six, and then before long you're recording your first album at, like, I don't know, 13?

[281] Yeah, it was 10, actually.

[282] I wrote a song and sent it to a family friend, and he was such a sweetie.

[283] He passed away, unfortunately, but he heard the song, and he recorded it at his farm.

[284] And then when I went to visit, he surprised me by saying, hey, here's your track.

[285] Oh, my God.

[286] And of course, my brothers, as their want to do, told me many, many, many times that I couldn't sing to save my life.

[287] So I said, well, who's going to sing it?

[288] You know, I'll write it, but who's going to sing?

[289] And he said, come on.

[290] Yeah.

[291] You have a pretty voice.

[292] That's when I wrote it.

[293] And back in the day when I was young, they wouldn't sign young people.

[294] Now they'll sign you if you're an embryo.

[295] Sure.

[296] Back then they wouldn't.

[297] So I started a record company with my friend, and I put a record out when I was 11, and then I had a couple songs out, a record's in Canada, too.

[298] So, like, being expressed in any way, and it's been slightly torturous because it's so multitudinous sometimes, or I have to rein it in.

[299] Like, work addiction is actually my number one.

[300] And one of the signs of work addiction is 110 ,000 percent, and then boom, dead.

[301] Really?

[302] Yeah.

[303] But, yeah, one of the signs of work addiction.

[304] prediction is also procrastination because we know how much of a toll it takes on our body that we anticipate it.

[305] And that's when my laziness is triggered, but it's really fear.

[306] Oh.

[307] Interesting.

[308] You know.

[309] When you're in your 1 ,000 % mode, you know, I'm a little manic actually when I'm in and inspired.

[310] Okay.

[311] You got painting and photos and food and design and decorating and producing and directing and editing.

[312] And sometimes I just, I get parallel.

[313] artists.

[314] Do you ever try to unravel what part is like being an artist and being creative and then what part is ego?

[315] Yeah, I mean, ego gets me to show up.

[316] Ego made it so I put lip balm on.

[317] But also, you know, it's really helped me because it's been confusing to, you know, concretize and control it all.

[318] But I love the multiple intelligence theory.

[319] So Howard Gardner, I begged him to do my podcast a few years ago.

[320] He said, no. And I continued to beg.

[321] I said, please, our generation needs you.

[322] So he, he came on and we talked about the idea of there being multiple intelligences.

[323] So it takes the, oh, that person's smart or that person's dumb, completely out of the equation.

[324] Okay.

[325] I mean, it's physical intelligence, musical intelligence, math, logic intelligence.

[326] Naturalist intelligence is another one, gardening.

[327] I like that.

[328] Spatial intelligence.

[329] So, you know, if someone's really great at parkour, but maybe they're challenged with spelling or grammar and linguistic intelligence, you can no longer say, oh, that person's really smart.

[330] For me, in our family, we have to qualify it now.

[331] So if someone says, wow, that person's a genius, I'll go, a genius how?

[332] And Howard bless him, I was audacious enough to say, can I add some?

[333] He said, yeah, and you know what?

[334] What I loved adding is that comedic intelligence, because I really think that that is a muscle and a talent that I think you can cultivate it, but it's either in your bones or it's not.

[335] Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.

[336] And yes, I've known a lot of comedians that were just brilliant comedians that don't know what year America was founded, but clearly they're, they're so.

[337] You can't be, quote, dumb and be making observations that everyone thought, no one said.

[338] It's just, it's not possible.

[339] Just came up because we were watching the last dance, the Michael Jordan documentary, the Bulls documentary.

[340] Dennis Rodman was talking about rebounding and how he can see, like, where the ball hits someone's hand and how And I was like, oh, my God, that is a genius.

[341] That's, yeah, that's spatial intelligence and physical intelligence.

[342] And probably, you know, and then there's the emotional intelligence.

[343] Dancers, you know, I watch dancers.

[344] And I'm just like, I don't care if they have any other intelligences.

[345] This is just such a miracle offering.

[346] Yeah.

[347] It's a bummer that so few of them can be monetized, you know, truthfully.

[348] Like, if you have a kid, you're worried about them supporting themselves.

[349] And you're like, this kid's a physical genius.

[350] I don't know what he's going to do with it.

[351] Well, I mean, first of all, they can all be monetized.

[352] Yeah.

[353] Spoken like a true stage mom, we can monetize anything.

[354] There's all kinds of different gifts that we have.

[355] And I love that it's, you know, the potential for this is that there's no such thing as a smarter or stupid person.

[356] Yeah.

[357] Now, at the age of 13 and when you were pursuing this, if you had to assign percentages, like what, what percentage do you think was intrinsically motivated and what was extrinsically motivated in your pursuit of music?

[358] I definitely had major invisibility issues.

[359] But the irony for me was that I had that ham thing, but then I also had the don't look in me. So they were always fighting.

[360] But in terms of was it ego or was it just like destined, it says existential imperative for me to feel expressed when I'm not expressed in any way I feel super depressed.

[361] But then, of course, my ego had been sold the same bill of goods.

[362] I think that the whole planet is around fame is that the second year famous, you're going be loved and yeah well most importantly you're going to look in the mirror and love who you see yes if they do then I will yeah but then subtle piece here because there's this whole autonomous movement where people say you got to love yourself first or you got to do your individual work and and yes and no i or one can't actually see there's so many blind spots that i have that unless i'm interacting and and it's brought to light there's no way for me to grow and i think it's both i think we have to rely on each other, have to rely on relationships.

[363] And if I'm only doing that, then I'm full -blown, you know, codependent love addict.

[364] So the alone sort of autonomous inner work individually, I think, is equally important.

[365] Yeah, well, I think anytime you're talking about humans and you're offering a binary option, I think you're already dead.

[366] Yeah, there's no way.

[367] Now, back to when you were young and performing, what percentage of it was just this intrinsic joy of making music and how much of it was in search of validation and praise.

[368] Maybe it's a silly question.

[369] Maybe it doesn't matter.

[370] No, I think it's a really great question.

[371] The word praise got me because it was more the kind of an attachment thing.

[372] Fame is interesting because it basically says any attachment you wins you have.

[373] In attachment, what do we get?

[374] We get skin on skin.

[375] We have eyes looking at us.

[376] We have people contacting us.

[377] We have attunement to need immediately.

[378] So I feel like fame is like, here, have all your attachments.

[379] attachment needs met.

[380] But then, as we all know, once you get in, it just exacerbates what's there already.

[381] So if I'm scared of something, it's just going to explode into terror.

[382] So I'm not answering your question, though.

[383] Probably 50.

[384] I don't even know.

[385] Yeah, yeah.

[386] Yeah.

[387] That's why I say to put a number on, it was probably a bad question.

[388] But both were happening.

[389] And you know when that kind of came to a grinding halt was after Jagged Little Pill for the tour we did for that, I came home.

[390] And I remember thinking, whoa, this is not what I anticipated.

[391] So much beauty, of course, but also a lot of suffering and disillusionment was going on.

[392] So then I thought, now, why do I keep going?

[393] Yeah.

[394] I remember I was dating, I was dating someone who was with me backstage after I got off stage.

[395] There were, you know, a large amount of people in the audience.

[396] My ego wants to say there were 45 ,000 people.

[397] So, so I'd come backstage after the show, and I go.

[398] So, you know, he was my boyfriend at the time.

[399] So I was like, aren't I great?

[400] You got it?

[401] And he got so upset.

[402] He said, you just had 45 ,000 people screaming your name so excited.

[403] And yet you come back here and you need more feedback from me. And I was like, oh, you don't understand.

[404] Like, I love everyone in the audience, but I don't know them.

[405] I'm not intimate.

[406] You're the one whose opinion matters to me. Can I go a step further, too?

[407] Yeah, yeah, please.

[408] Because we just really unpacked this at length.

[409] We did a live show in Detroit where I'm from and all these people that that I knew from childhood came.

[410] And I told Monica is that the only show that was like almost impossible for me to do because I was like, oh, no, no, I've adopted this kind of persona.

[411] Like I have a professional exterior exterior that these people are going to see through.

[412] Like I can buy into it myself in Minnesota when we go there because there's no one there that knows that I'm not that person.

[413] And then Monica goes, oh yeah, I guess I would be freaked out to go to Georgia and do a live show because, you know, Yeah, it's...

[414] Because they're on to you.

[415] Is that what you mean?

[416] Yeah, so, yeah.

[417] So, do your story, those people that just saw you on stage, they saw the version of you that you've created.

[418] And then the guy backstage is hopefully the person who knows the real you.

[419] And that's what you want to be validated for, is the kid inside of you, right?

[420] Not the professional on stage.

[421] Or how about both?

[422] I mean, for me, just the language of real or false presentation all the part.

[423] I just think these are all parts.

[424] So...

[425] I agree.

[426] I didn't see the difference between Minnesota and Detroit show, but the truth is, is you're showing, and I would say generously, as artists, we're showing parts of ourselves, and sometimes we're showing three parts, and sometimes we're showing 150 parts.

[427] It's just, you know, in terms of being in the audience, part of the social activism, I think that anyone in the public eye just lands into without even knowing, certainly I wasn't warned, is that you're this screen upon which people just project their stuff onto, right?

[428] Oh, so I remind you of your ex -girlfriends, okay, or, oh, I remind you of a mom that abandoned you or, you don't like female bosses.

[429] Okay, I got that.

[430] We some of it.

[431] I'm not saying.

[432] And not all of its projection, obviously, you know.

[433] But therein lies the beauty.

[434] of choosing what you're going to put out because you get to kind of pick what you're going to relate to or what's the thing people are going to identify with.

[435] So the people that are attracted to your music, you know, you kind of get to pick, I guess, which is the really neat thing about it.

[436] Who you're going to attract, you know, you kind of, in some level, you know, you're kind of, you're building a community and the thing that attracts that community to you is ultimately in your hands.

[437] I think you're giving me a little too much credit because I'm just like, I don't have any fucking idea who's listening to me until I step out.

[438] And then I, but I do think that resonance is real.

[439] So, you know, I look out in the audience sometimes and I'm just like, wow, there's a room full of very sensitive, very thoughtful.

[440] You know, and I'm just like, okay, so I'm speaking their language, but I don't, have you been able to do that?

[441] I haven't been able to go, I'm going to write a record for these people.

[442] I always just think I have people ask me, what's this new?

[443] record about what I never know until it's finished and then I know about a year or two after any record comes out I'll get a glimpse of objectivity on it no you're right it's not calculated but you do become aware of it so for us it's we take questions at the end and we start realizing this pattern that most of the people asking questions are kind of admitting to something that's hugely vulnerable and that someone wouldn't normally admit out loud and then we go oh god damn that's awesome that's the thing they like like because they're they're letting us know like, oh yeah, man, I'm fucked up and flawed too.

[444] And I'm like, boy, I'm so grateful that that's the thing that brought us all together.

[445] But you're right.

[446] I didn't set out to do that, but I'm aware of it.

[447] Yeah.

[448] Can I ask you a couple of really fun, like, cheap questions?

[449] Of course.

[450] I live for those.

[451] What on earth was it like opening for vanilla ice?

[452] I just, I'm like dying to know what it was like to be on that tour.

[453] Because I think I really like him.

[454] I've never met him, but I never met him either.

[455] You didn't?

[456] No. Oh.

[457] I was instructed to not look at anybody.

[458] Oh, wow.

[459] Okay.

[460] So, you know, as a Canadian, I said, okay, no problem.

[461] The true answer is it was so fun.

[462] I mean, I was 15 or 16.

[463] And a huge audience, a bigger audience than I'd ever played for.

[464] It was just a high.

[465] I was completely out of my mind just performing on stage, a lot of dancing, a lot of moving, sweating, huge grin.

[466] But I did not meet him.

[467] And I was instructed that if I saw anyone to just not look and by the way everyone you know people say oh that's so horrifying no it's not if you're the kind of person who gets stared at all day long you know and that that was one of the my personal experiences too where I as a young Canadian I'm such a people watcher like if I could sit on a bench and just watch people all day that would be the most fun thing in the world so all of a sudden I was sitting on these very same benches and all the eyeballs I became the watch ed.

[468] Yeah.

[469] You know, and I was like, wait, I didn't, I didn't agree to this.

[470] Yeah.

[471] So I got used to it.

[472] I mean, I'm so Canadian.

[473] So when moving to America, I learned a lot of qualities that are maybe sort of typically American that I needed to cultivate in order to be able to survive being watched that much.

[474] You know, there's a confidence in a extraversion that I hadn't been exposed to as much in Canada.

[475] We interviewed Keith Morrison, my favorite dateline, and he just, every fourth sentence was, it just seems so self -indulgent to talk about myself.

[476] Right.

[477] I know, but you're in the interviews, and we want to talk about you, but yeah.

[478] But that's a thing culturally, I mean, we're taught to, it's almost like anti -narcissism.

[479] Like, we're taught to have low levels of narcissism.

[480] You need some level of healthy narcissism to pick a t -shirt, you know?

[481] Right.

[482] You got to figure out how you're going to look in it.

[483] Yeah, like how can I put a record out?

[484] That's a healthy level of narcissism.

[485] But I did notice when I moved to Los Angeles, the first six months of my having been there, I didn't speak.

[486] Because in Canada, how I did it was it's all dialogical.

[487] So I'm not going to speak to something unless you're curious about it.

[488] That was what I was unconsciously taught.

[489] So when I moved to L .A., I'm sitting at all these dinners.

[490] And all I did was listen for six months.

[491] And then I thought, if I'm going to open my mouth over, you know, over the, my lifetime, and I love moving to America.

[492] I said, I have to learn how to share when it's unsolicited.

[493] And that for a Canadian is almost an impossibility.

[494] Wow.

[495] You know, if you weren't so kindly asking questions right now that somehow I'd have to use that muscle of being able to just share and assume you want to know.

[496] In Canada, we assume you don't want to know unless you're asking.

[497] Yeah, because the Canadian music, your first two albums were more pop, right?

[498] Yeah, they weren't autobiographical.

[499] And a lot of people I was working with during that time, I started to write certain songs or lyrics that didn't rhyme or were a little intense.

[500] And the feedback I got really quickly was, no. Let's go back to the dance person.

[501] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[502] What's up, guys?

[503] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

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[505] And I'm diving into the brains of interesting.

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[521] The other pattern with a lot of y 'all singers is like some success and then like bonkers success.

[522] There seems to be a slightly different trajectory from a lot of the bands we all like growing up where it was like it was a slow burn and then and then I think a really easy pitfall of that is like imposter syndrome right if you go from like oh yeah my first two albums did this and then all of a sudden I sell 33 million albums and I'm nominated for Grammys and stuff isn't there some fear of like oh fuck I got lucky and I'll be exposed and this is a mistake did you experience any of those feelings or were you like no no I wrote this this is my story this makes total sense I mean I would hope it's the latter but it seems like it's common for people to go like, this can't be happening.

[523] I couldn't possibly deserve this.

[524] So something stinks and it'll get exposed.

[525] Well, you're also implying, like even just when you say it's deserve, deserve what?

[526] Like I don't deserve the isolation.

[527] I don't deserve the adulation.

[528] I don't deserve.

[529] Like for me, there's so many elements to being in the public eye.

[530] Some of them are really fun.

[531] Like, wow, you just sent me a bunch of products for free.

[532] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[533] You know, and then some of them are really hard and really isolating and devastating, actually, and traumatizing.

[534] A lot of people chase fame from a place of trauma.

[535] I want to heal it, right?

[536] Yeah.

[537] And then fame further compounds it and traumatizes you some more.

[538] So I never thought I was fooling someone.

[539] I just felt really confused all the time.

[540] Well, I think that's the preferred outcome.

[541] I'm happy to hear that.

[542] And then it became if the ego part didn't grant what it had purported to be able to give, you know, joy, tons of friends, hanging out with them, million celebrities.

[543] I mean, I used to reach out to celebrities going, hi.

[544] You want to hang out?

[545] And they'd be like, why are you calling me?

[546] No, I bet they all said yes.

[547] They all said yes.

[548] Oh, no. And it still happens.

[549] I'll reach out to someone and I'll think, oh, this person wants to be my friend.

[550] I'm so excited.

[551] And then they don't want to be my friend.

[552] Or at least they don't want to be the kind of friend that you're looking for.

[553] Yeah.

[554] There was this turning point where I thought, well, why would I continue?

[555] And that which remained was still this joy of expression.

[556] So that's massive for me. So much fun singing.

[557] Like I lived to sing.

[558] I live to, right?

[559] I live to, you know, whether you call it, obnoxiously call it channeling or whatever the frick, the process is my favorite.

[560] I live for it.

[561] So I get to keep doing that.

[562] For me, I started noticing that people would say, hey, thanks for validating that or empathizing with that.

[563] Or, hey, my family member just died and you help, or you help me through my divorce.

[564] Then I started going, oh, this could be art, expression, career, and service all squished into one.

[565] It's activism.

[566] Yeah.

[567] So for me, I mean, what we're doing right now, right?

[568] There's a heartfulness in all, I would say, all three of us, wanting to somehow show up for people, right?

[569] Why else do that?

[570] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[571] So that became the guiding force for me. And it made it so that I could keep going because if that weren't there, you know, I'd probably want to be in the public eye for 10 minutes every 10 years.

[572] Yeah.

[573] So I, so I. guess the examples that I'm aware of, and I'm pretty ignorant on music in general, but it seems like Eddie Vedder was like, okay, I don't like that version, but I'm still going to do this.

[574] And it seems like he created right in architecture for himself to do it.

[575] And then I would say that about Nora Jones as well.

[576] It seems like she's like, she's like, okay, that was great.

[577] Yeah, this is me. Yeah.

[578] So like what decisions did you make that you're like, here's the version I'm open to doing?

[579] Like, what were those actual changes or decisions?

[580] Great question.

[581] Well, one of them was what I mentioned earlier in Canada when I started writing and kind of deviating from the non -autobiographical stuff and started writing real stories of what was going on.

[582] And I was dissuaded to say the least from that.

[583] So I left.

[584] Before I met Glenn Mallard, who I collaborated with on Jack Littlepill, I remember saying to myself, I will not stop until I'm in an environment where what I have to say is just valued in the room.

[585] And I remember even writing you ought to know and I swear.

[586] in it.

[587] And then I turned to Glenn after as the Canadian that I am.

[588] And I said, well, obviously, we'll have to change that.

[589] And he said, wait, wait, what do you mean?

[590] Change it.

[591] Did you mean everything you said?

[592] And I said, yeah.

[593] He said, we're not changing it.

[594] And people were upset.

[595] They were like, what do you mean you're perverted?

[596] You mean you're just sexual?

[597] And I was like, yeah.

[598] And they said, what do you just say that?

[599] I was like, it doesn't sound as pretty.

[600] It's not as fun.

[601] It's not as impactful.

[602] Yeah, yeah.

[603] Again, it goes back to the thing I was maybe hinting that I assume you have or maybe I'm just projecting but I had this great duality as a kid whereas I was my mom really believed in me and thank God she's the sole reason I've done anything in life she do but she believed in me to a degree that I felt was a little cumbersome I was like oh but on the side I'm fucking around so I just I had a duality and to me my perviness is part of that duality it's like I have some kinky fun side of myself that's not for everyone and it's for me and I like it it's positive once again with the semantics I mean for me perverted was just sort of directly implying, having fun with it, you know, not being scared.

[604] And the truth of the matter is so many of us who, who talk a good game about how wild and crazy we are and how crazy our relationships are sexually, sometimes there's something going on there.

[605] I've had a lot of sexual abuse in my history.

[606] And it's not uncommon to do the response to that to be hypersexual.

[607] So I went through that for.

[608] years and then I think it's only in marriage talking about the loyalty and the safety and the commitment and everything where I've been given you know without speaking out of school where I've been given this amazing opportunity to really look you know and then there were some years after particularly difficult breakups where I just took a whole full moratorium on all of it and so some would say that I was sexually anorexic right right right right go between and that's you know there's the addict again yeah yeah so even the word reverted is just like to me that just implies I'm wild and I don't have hangups.

[609] We talked to this amazing Dr. Alex.

[610] Catahawkus.

[611] Catahawkus.

[612] Yeah, I spoke with her too.

[613] I love her.

[614] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[615] So, you know, she's just the best about sex addiction.

[616] And I said to her, and really it was probably a question for myself, I'm like, you know, there's this predictable behavior as a result of trauma and sexual trauma.

[617] And I clearly have some of it.

[618] I said, but it is what it is.

[619] And so I now enjoy it.

[620] and should I have to ignore the result of the sexual trauma if it gives me pleasure?

[621] And I use different examples.

[622] And she goes, no, no. If there's shame and secrecy, then it's bad.

[623] Right.

[624] And if there's not, it's not.

[625] She said there's a lot of people that have had really severe sexual trauma who desire recreating that.

[626] And she talked about the dominatrix relationship.

[627] And it's this wonderful way to live out the fantasy that is just reinjuring your trauma.

[628] But you have the control and she just broke it all down.

[629] And I was like, oh, yeah, that's awesome.

[630] That's what it is.

[631] Is it shame and is it secret or not?

[632] Right.

[633] And that's everything.

[634] I think that's really beautifully put.

[635] But someone shouldn't be told to not enjoy whatever it is they enjoy just because it's rooted in trauma.

[636] I'm like, I think that's crazy too.

[637] Well, I think that's pretty sophisticated if someone is able to go right back into the belly of the beast and have a similar interaction.

[638] I mean, whether it's sexuality, whether it's fame, whether it's working with men, you know, There's so many things that can contribute to our traumas.

[639] So if we're willing to go back into the dungeon or the belly of the beast and go in with a different consciousness and an awareness and an empowerment and maybe some boundaries in our back pocket, it could look outwardly like the exact same circumstance, but inside it's a whole different experience.

[640] Yeah.

[641] I thought that was such a clear way to evaluate your own behavior, you know?

[642] Yeah, and not make anything right or wrong except for those those are the indicators.

[643] I think that's really beautiful.

[644] How have you liked acting as compared to singing?

[645] I love it.

[646] But I haven't chased it.

[647] You know, I love it and it's an honor.

[648] I really love doing voiceover.

[649] Love the sweatpan experience of just becoming a whole other creature.

[650] And sometimes when I write songs for movies, in some ways, the narrative of a song becomes its own character or I'll look at the actors and I'll choose one of them and I'll sing through what I imagine to be their perspective.

[651] their lens.

[652] Yeah.

[653] I mean, I guess because you did that at the exact same time you started singing virtually, right?

[654] Because you were on my favorite TV show.

[655] You can't do that on television.

[656] I was.

[657] So it's probably like, yeah, it's not like you decided, oh, now I'll act.

[658] You had already done that.

[659] But was it, um, but the, I mean, some of it was just super practical to write a song required me and a pen to create a TV show required 1 ,500 people.

[660] Yeah.

[661] So when I was just looking at where am I going to put my energy in my room at 11 years old.

[662] And being in a TV show with preexisting people already that were on the show for years, you know, being the newcomer is kind of fun a little bit, kind of exciting, but it's also really sad and hard.

[663] You know, it's kind of like when you travel a lot in the military, whatever, you're just going to all these new places and you're the new kid in school all the time.

[664] So for me, the earlier experiences of acting were tougher just because I was the new girl.

[665] Oh, yeah.

[666] I think about that all the time for our guest stars on the show.

[667] I'm like, these people are walking into this group that's been spent the last two years together.

[668] And especially, you know, the part of me that's so cameo -ish.

[669] It's exactly that.

[670] I'm going to a new school.

[671] And sometimes those schools are fun and sometimes it's like, oh, God.

[672] The audition process for actors is really vulnerable and I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

[673] Yeah.

[674] But I'm just like, I don't, you know, I don't need, I don't, this is too stressful for my mind.

[675] body, I think that speaks actually to susceptibility of, you know, if someone's particularly sensitive temperamentally, if they're in an environment that is loving, they will actually bloom more so than someone who perhaps isn't as sensitive in that loving environment, if that makes sense.

[676] And equally, the opposite is true.

[677] If someone who's susceptible and vulnerable is in an environment that's abusive, they'll get more depressed and more suicidal and more so perhaps than the 80 % of people who aren't as temperamentally sensitive.

[678] Yeah.

[679] I read that you have been very public about having different eating.

[680] I don't even know if this is the right words anymore.

[681] Eating disorder, do we still call it that?

[682] Well, disorder thinking, mood disorders.

[683] Yeah, yeah.

[684] I would call it food stuff.

[685] Yeah, yeah, food stuff.

[686] The good news about the major headway that everyone's made in terms of nutrients and superfoods.

[687] I don't think you're going to meet anyone with an eating disorder who've done.

[688] doesn't know so much information about nutrients and calories and micromanerals and phytochemicals.

[689] And then what happens after a while for me, the more I learned and experimented with it and took the whole dieting thing out of the question, I had a whole different relationship with my body.

[690] I was doing still extreme stuff like marathons.

[691] I did the New York marathon with H1N1.

[692] Like I was just pushing and pushing.

[693] Oh, my goodness.

[694] You know, there's the addict again.

[695] the street name is swine flu right isn't that what h1 i just don't like the words i know i know it's the grossest name ever given to a disease swine moist there's a few words where i'm like yeah she came down with moist swine flu moist moist moist swine flu panties disorder just all the gross words in one oh my god so anytime there's deprivation i mean anytime someone's if someone's someone were to say to me, you can never wear a red t -shirt again.

[696] I mean, what am I going to be obsessed with?

[697] Yeah, exactly.

[698] So eventually, Janine Roth helped a lot for me with food.

[699] And she shared this really incredible story where a mom was concerned about her daughter's eating disorder.

[700] So she spoke with Jean.

[701] I think it's in one of her books.

[702] So I'm not speaking at a school.

[703] But she said, okay, so here's what I'm going to ask you to do.

[704] What's your daughter's favorite food?

[705] And she said, M &Ms.

[706] So she said, I want you to fill a pillowcase full of M &Ms and just give it to her and tell her she can eat it anytime she wants.

[707] So the mom was scared to do this, but she did it because she trusted Janine.

[708] The daughter brought the bag to her locker.

[709] It was with her all the time.

[710] She was eating and eating at first, I think a couple weeks.

[711] I'm making some of this up.

[712] Sorry, Jean -Share.

[713] But gained some weight.

[714] So the mom called Janine back and said, this isn't working.

[715] She's gaining weight.

[716] And Janine just said, stay the course.

[717] So then she kept eating it.

[718] And then as might be predictable, eventually she was just like, I can eat this anytime day or night.

[719] And I got a whole freaking bag full.

[720] And my mom fills it up anytime it's empty.

[721] So there's this abundance mindset that created a little bit more freedom.

[722] And that was the turning point for me. I mean, there's 50 ,000 tentacles to the recovery of food stuff.

[723] But that was a big turning point.

[724] And I called it free eating.

[725] And I also would just add things.

[726] Another tough one is, you know, the whole addictive black and white, like I'm eating six walkers a day.

[727] Then I go to like carrot sticks.

[728] And, you know.

[729] So for me, when I'm working or chatting or hanging with friends and we're talking about this, I just go, don't take anything out.

[730] Just add a smoothie.

[731] Add some spinach.

[732] Right.

[733] Have the five whoppers, whatever you need, just eat what you need, and then add.

[734] And emotionally, too.

[735] Like for me, because I was so overstimulated all the time, that's why I would eat so much food at midnight when it was quiet in the house.

[736] I would notice somatically, I'd be eating and I'd be taking.

[737] these deep breaths, you know?

[738] And it was like, oh, that's why I wait until the kitchen was empty at two in the morning.

[739] It was the first moment I could have to think, you know, because a lot of times with certain temperaments, especially highly sensitive, I can be in the middle of thinking about 52 things.

[740] And if my husband or my friend says, hey, sweetie, do you want to eat dinner now?

[741] I'll be like, you know, like someone may not know they're interrupt.

[742] They're not interrupting anything because there's silence in the room, but there's so much going on in here that.

[743] Right.

[744] There's something interesting there because there's also like, as you said, there's so many tentacles and there's so many, like the first umbrella is we all kind of, it seems common knowledge now that it's always just a control thing.

[745] But beyond that, what you're describing is I have found that like, yeah, activities that buy you freedom, you can link those in weird ways, right?

[746] So if I find this activity that buys me the freedom I'm looking for, now the activity, and I'm unaware of it, has this elevated importance.

[747] For me, it's taking a dump in the morning, Monaco will tell you I'm in there for a fucking hour.

[748] Now, clearly, especially at the time when we're trying to get the kids ready for school.

[749] It's conveniently at the time.

[750] Yeah.

[751] How dare you?

[752] How dare you?

[753] But yes, taking a dump nose has been elevated above sex because really it's just the time I get to like look at my phone and guilt -free and do whatever the fuck I want.

[754] Yeah, no, it's the escapes, especially the more children, the more I'm hiding.

[755] It's a very odd place.

[756] Yeah, yeah.

[757] Or at an airport.

[758] Like, mom's going to pee a lot.

[759] Yeah.

[760] Yeah, I think my wife enjoys, like, I think my wife enjoys cooking for many reasons.

[761] But I do think one of them is, is like, hey, I'm busy.

[762] And it's like hard for her to just say, I don't want to talk to anyone.

[763] But that's a way to say, I don't want to talk to anyone.

[764] Right.

[765] She doesn't, you know, her codependency will allow her to do.

[766] I mean, a lot of good food comes out of that one.

[767] Yeah, we're winning.

[768] We're winning because of it.

[769] well.

[770] I hope she never gets healthy.

[771] Yeah.

[772] Well, you have a new album, right?

[773] Yes.

[774] It's called Such Pretty Forks in the Road.

[775] It came out May 1st?

[776] It was going to come out May 1st.

[777] Okay.

[778] But I pushed it.

[779] As we were approaching May 1st, it just felt like such a tenuous time.

[780] Bummer of a time to...

[781] And it was, yeah, bummer.

[782] And I asked a few friends, I said, when we're in the middle of a pandemic and a crisis, personally, I don't need to hear about someone's personal crisis.

[783] So that was my mindset in having just put a pause button on it.

[784] Then I had some friends calling me saying, no, the opposite is true.

[785] We want to lose ourselves in your crisis.

[786] Yeah.

[787] So we're going to put it out early July.

[788] Okay, because I was going to see the second friend might, they might be right because Monica has watched how many times?

[789] Oh my God, like realistically probably six times.

[790] At least.

[791] She has watched contagion six times since this all started.

[792] That's the one.

[793] I can't stop watching it.

[794] I just have it.

[795] I just have it.

[796] in the background, people are having seizures, and I'm like, yeah.

[797] And how does that help?

[798] Like, it just makes it be over there and not here?

[799] I don't know why it helps.

[800] Really, I'm just like, oh, yeah, we're all experiencing this.

[801] Yeah.

[802] There's something that feels like connected about it.

[803] To be honest, I don't know why, but it feels good.

[804] It's working.

[805] It's working.

[806] Yeah, no, however you get it, right.

[807] Ideally, in a healthy way.

[808] And so you had a world tour planned.

[809] I can only imagine, like, when you've planned a world tour, what's that pulling the plug finally feel like?

[810] I'm still in denial.

[811] I mean, first of all, it can't happen.

[812] So it's completely outside of my control.

[813] No one's going to show up at the shows.

[814] And postponement is real.

[815] So if I'm freaked out, and there have been moments, I had a really good cry the other day.

[816] My manager called me to talk about what, you know, we're removing and postponing things.

[817] And I just couldn't stop crying.

[818] Yeah.

[819] I was like, I finally, I finally just started grieving the loss of, you know, well -laid plans as life happens.

[820] But it's all very surreal right now.

[821] And it just depends when you catch me. Sometimes I'm elated and my, I'm breastfeeding or my kids and I are wrestling and we're jumping and, you know, rolling around.

[822] And I'm so happy.

[823] It's so bonded.

[824] And then 15 minutes later, I'm numb.

[825] And that I'm completely terrorized, you know, and then an hour later, it ain't nothing.

[826] You know, it's like nothing's happened.

[827] So a lot of mood parties.

[828] And then as an empath, I feel everybody financially, emotionally, what if you're in a house with someone who's abusing you?

[829] What if you're, you know, I just feel into what's going on around the planet and people, you know, lining up for food and frontline peeps and everything.

[830] It's just a lot of energy.

[831] Do you have to police yourself on how much content you consume.

[832] Yeah, I did one day last week where I didn't read any of the bad news.

[833] Yeah.

[834] And, you know, it made a difference.

[835] This is a never -ending conversation in my household, which is like my wife's just like you.

[836] She's very empathic.

[837] She wants to know, and I'm always trying to go like, you know, get the exact amount you need to mobilize whatever thing you need to mobilize.

[838] Yeah, nice.

[839] And then at that moment, then stop.

[840] You know, if you think you need more motivation, but you seem to be doing everything, someone in the public could do because she loves to be helpful and she posts a lot of things that are helpful to people and she does a tremendous amount of stuff.

[841] But I'm like, whatever that critical mask is, I'm only recommending just hit critical mask and then bail out.

[842] I love what you said about one part of you wishing it doesn't end, you know, and I don't know.

[843] That could be because you're bonding with your family.

[844] Yeah, yeah.

[845] I love being with my girls.

[846] It's the greatest.

[847] You know, so part of me is also like, wow, there's a whole new potential value system that's going to open up here.

[848] Not a huge paradigm shift.

[849] So it's what's most important to me, what are my priorities.

[850] How can I go back to some way of living that I used to do in this whole new context?

[851] I think it's pretty exciting in terms of self -definition and defining ourselves as a culture, what our values are, what we what we care about, you know.

[852] So that's beautiful.

[853] I feel badly for people's bodies.

[854] You know, it's hard on the body to be in chronic cortisol.

[855] I mean, it's basically trauma if you're chronically, this is a beautiful new book that I think it's called anxiety as the forgotten stage of grief, or pardon me for messing that title up, but this anxiety thing of this undercurrent that no matter what we're feeling, if we're feeling angry or if we're in denial or checked out or self -medicated, that there's this undercurrent of terror.

[856] So it's really hard on the body to keep that cortisol cooking.

[857] And they've done studies where when your cortisol is super jacked in the red for long enough, it actually collapses.

[858] So sometimes I've done stress tests to figure out, like, how's this body doing?

[859] Are we going?

[860] How's our longevity plan going?

[861] And basically, a lot of the results came back with my cortisol low.

[862] And I did some studying.

[863] And it basically is that your hormone levels collapse.

[864] They fatigue.

[865] Yes.

[866] Yeah.

[867] So I similarly had a really comprehensive blood test.

[868] And he goes, wow, I've never seen an adrenal gland production this low outside of Navy seal.

[869] I think that is a huge compliment.

[870] You're so trauma resilient.

[871] My ego gets proud about anything these days.

[872] It's that I'm still alive and that I have some resilience and that I'm still here.

[873] I can still laugh, you know.

[874] Yeah.

[875] Yeah.

[876] Yeah.

[877] I was talking with Gabor Mate a few months ago and it was on my podcast and he said, do you ever think you'll not go to therapy?

[878] And I said, no, I think I'll go to therapy for the rest of my life.

[879] Like I don't see an end.

[880] I don't see an end to And he really vehemently disagreed with me. Oh, really?

[881] He said he goes, at some point, I think you're going to be good to go in his own way.

[882] But what about you?

[883] I've been saying it a lot lately where it's like, okay, I understand what happened.

[884] I understand the results of it.

[885] I'm approaching having processed all that stuff.

[886] And it's time for me to just write whatever fucking story I want to read about myself, you know?

[887] Yeah, I do.

[888] And it's probably just my own ego worrying that people are just getting exhausted with myself.

[889] exploration in my endless interest in other people.

[890] Well, you don't forget residents.

[891] Only people who live to go inside and have that degree of interiority are going to be listening because you're doing it.

[892] So don't worry about that.

[893] You can.

[894] Okay, okay, okay.

[895] I'll add, you can also have self exploration without sharing it.

[896] Wait, why would you do that?

[897] That's a note for me and our friend, Jess.

[898] I'm just saying, no, if the choices don't.

[899] self -explore because people are sick of it or no there is some in -between things there you can keep exploring you're dead right but i guess i'm more mean also shouldn't i be bored of it by this point like i have some voice in my head that's what television's for that's what even with our careers it's almost like this forced self -absorption and even that the canadian he was like it's also self -indulgent i'm like yes it is self -indulgent and i get so sick of my own image my own face.

[900] I get sick of the mirror.

[901] I noticed when we were at home, but I hadn't looked in a mirror in a long time.

[902] And I was like, that's liberating too.

[903] I don't want to talk to my name even.

[904] People say my name sometimes and I have PTSD.

[905] I'm just like, yeah.

[906] I was saying to my wife, do you think if I started an island, like I bought an island and I started a colony and there were no mirrors or reflective surfaces allowed on the island if it would attract people?

[907] And then we're like, like, well, island's problematic because you can see your reflection in the water.

[908] But anyways, I was just thinking like, what would it be to have no concept of what you look like at a certain point?

[909] I mean, it would probably take years.

[910] But I have to imagine there's good on the other side of that.

[911] Oh, yeah, that's my bliss.

[912] I mean, I, you know, don't get me wrong.

[913] I love grooming.

[914] I live to grooming.

[915] But I love not looking at a mirror.

[916] And there's certain hotel rooms on tour that are mirror -centric.

[917] Like, you can't turn without seeing your mug.

[918] It's like, oh, I cover some of them up.

[919] And then there are other hotel rooms where there's no mirrors and I can feel a difference.

[920] Oh, what prompted me to even think about that is we don't have one in the attic where we normally record.

[921] And occasionally like before I guess to get there, I want to glance and see if I have a booger hanging out or my hair's all fucked up.

[922] And I just can't.

[923] And then I stop thinking about it.

[924] I noticed with my kids, I put mirrors up all in the wall and they do the, you know, I did it as a kid too.

[925] Oh, yeah.

[926] Dancing and the.

[927] Oh, my kids will watch themselves cry and I'm so embarrassed for me and them because I've done it like enjoying watching yourself cries like how narcissistic could you possibly be oh my god I'm so sad look at me and I'm like oh my god we're repugnant as a species but also also freaking precious Louise Hayes to talk about the mirror work of all the inner work things you know there's 80 % of it I'm like yeah I'm down for it and 20 % where I'm like yeah I'll do it but I'll skip that exercise because I started by doing mirror work so mirror work is the thing that I'm playing with.

[928] It's so simple and so terrifying to just look in the eyeballs of this person who's been carrying you around this whole time.

[929] All those experiences, PTSD or joy or bliss or marriage and chill.

[930] I mean, it's that body.

[931] This is the person that was in Spain.

[932] This is the person that was in pain.

[933] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[934] Well, Alanas, it's so fun talking to you.

[935] Two.

[936] Thank you.

[937] July what?

[938] I don't know the exact date, but early July is what the APB came back.

[939] Three songs already came out, though.

[940] The reasons I drink was the first one.

[941] And then Smiling came out.

[942] Smiling is also in the Broadway musical.

[943] So it's kind of a...

[944] Oh, that's cool.

[945] And then diagnosis we just put out because that one was, it just felt apropos in some ways.

[946] So do you ever like just get a concept of like, oh, I want to do an album?

[947] Because I just will think like, oh, I want to see a movie about blank, right?

[948] And then I'm off to the races thinking.

[949] Yeah, I'm constantly like, oh, I want to see a movie where that happens.

[950] Oh, wow.

[951] Do albums work that way ever for you or no?

[952] No. No. And so of all the ideas you have, do you get ideas all the time, four in the morning all the time, and then you execute one percent of them?

[953] Or how do you do it?

[954] Because I have so many freaking ideas every day that I, that they're just like, and I'm writing them all down.

[955] And, you know, which one do you pick?

[956] If there's any aspect of my identity I had pride in, it was that I was a writer.

[957] And three years ago, almost three years ago, two and change, I quit writing for the first time in 20 some years.

[958] And I fucking.

[959] love it.

[960] Like, I don't have homework.

[961] I just felt like I lived with homework always.

[962] For a vacation, I had a draft due, and I was trying to break a third act.

[963] And I just, it was so consuming.

[964] And I didn't think it's something I could ever let go of my identity.

[965] But at any rate, I have no plan on executing any of them.

[966] But the gear still very engaged in thinking of ideas.

[967] I just, I don't then go, oh, I need to execute this.

[968] Universal law of, you know, if you don't have that homework feeling, like I used to have that with my record when I met my husband, he had this unfettered, clean, exciting relationship with writing songs.

[969] And he would just be like, hey, babe, I can't come over.

[970] I'm going to write another song.

[971] And I'm just like, wow, he loves it.

[972] Whereas I was encumbered by it, you know, where I was like, oh, God.

[973] And I remember after Jagged Little Pill, I went to Canada to work with someone to start writing the follow -up sophomore record.

[974] And so I said to him, dear friend, and I said, I don't, I don't want to write.

[975] I don't want to write another record.

[976] I don't want to do any of this.

[977] And he said, okay, let's go see a movie.

[978] And we went to.

[979] to see a movie.

[980] I don't remember which one it was, but when we got back, I wrote two songs.

[981] Yeah, uh -huh.

[982] Because I didn't have to.

[983] That homework feeling is so oppressive and not inspiring.

[984] Yeah.

[985] My trick is the foot massage parlor.

[986] Like when I couldn't crack something, I'd be like, I'm going to just going to go get a foot massage.

[987] And invariably like 40 minutes into a foot massage, I'm like, oh, I know what I want to do with that.

[988] That's awesome.

[989] Well, again, what a blast to talk to you.

[990] I really hope we do it again.

[991] Yeah, thank you for having me. Well, I wish you and your four family members well, and I hope that, I hope it's the exact amount of time you want.

[992] Thank you, and the same to you and say hi to everybody, and I love you guys, and Godspeed, and you're doing such really generous work with so many people.

[993] Thank you.

[994] Well, thank you.

[995] Bye.

[996] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[997] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[998] In real life, you and I were just about to have a conversation.

[999] And then I thought, ooh, let's do it on the podcast instead, which was we interviewed somebody that'll be coming up.

[1000] And the person was objectively three times smarter than Monica and I. Combine.

[1001] Combined.

[1002] Yes.

[1003] This gentleman had the most comprehensive knowledge of our history, economics.

[1004] He's an economist by trade.

[1005] He's further left than Monica and much more left than I am.

[1006] And we both had this moment We were just discovering that we were both like How could he be that smart and not be right?

[1007] Yep, yeah, right?

[1008] Well, also because especially for me Some of the things he was saying, like, ideally I want.

[1009] Uh -huh.

[1010] And specific that came up that he was talking about is Scandinavia's middle way.

[1011] It's a mix between capitalism and socialism.

[1012] And they've been doing it for decades.

[1013] And, you know, they win every single happiest person alive.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] We'll get into it much deeper on his fact check, which will come up soon.

[1016] We both left with a little bit of like a hangover, right?

[1017] Where we were kind of like, man, we need to think more about this.

[1018] Yeah.

[1019] I mean, I'm not a Bernie supporter.

[1020] Yeah, nor I. And I think a lot of what he says is extreme.

[1021] I don't see how we could possibly pay for all of these things all at once.

[1022] But like you said, when we were talking to the economist who is a Bernie advisor, who had literally advised Bernie on his economic plan, yeah.

[1023] Yeah, I thought, oh, well, there must be a way.

[1024] Right.

[1025] Because it's never being said in the debates, which is infuriating.

[1026] It is.

[1027] It is.

[1028] It's like they keep asking and then he's never saying.

[1029] Yes.

[1030] But when we talked to Jeff, who is the economist, I'm like, no, there's probably, many things we just aren't privy to that work.

[1031] Well, after talking to him, there's no way that he's not responsible enough to have done the math.

[1032] Exactly.

[1033] That's the thing.

[1034] But Bernie certainly did not convince me that he had done the math.

[1035] No. It's hard.

[1036] Okay, Alanis.

[1037] So you talked about Dr. Alex and you said hypersexuality and that kind of thing was born out of maybe some...

[1038] Sexual trauma.

[1039] Yeah, some sexual trauma, some negative.

[1040] negative stuff, but that ultimately becomes what you like.

[1041] Party you.

[1042] And it's bad.

[1043] Dr. Alex was saying if there's shame, only if they're shame.

[1044] I just have to add, like for her, the biggest component is that the person has to acknowledge.

[1045] Like, I like this because of that.

[1046] Right, right.

[1047] So without that connection, you can't not have shame.

[1048] Right.

[1049] You know, like there's always going to be this underlying layer to it.

[1050] So the first part is like putting those puzzle pieces together, and then, like, yeah, if you still enjoy it and you don't have shame, and you're in control of it.

[1051] Right, right, right, right.

[1052] You're not a victim.

[1053] Exactly, because you can't really have control over it if you haven't acknowledged it, you know?

[1054] Right.

[1055] If the tails wagging the dog.

[1056] Exactly.

[1057] She was talking about eating disorders and how she told this story about Janine Roth told a woman to give her daughter a pillowcase of M &Ms.

[1058] But she was saying she thought she was messing up the story a little bit, so I have it.

[1059] Oh, okay, great.

[1060] Years ago, a woman named Oana attended one of my workshops with her 11 -year -old daughter, Miranda.

[1061] At the time we met, Miranda was what my own mother used to call me pudgy, round cheeks, round knees, round hands, a body that looked like it was made of circles.

[1062] You will love that.

[1063] That's my favorite.

[1064] A circle person?

[1065] Miranda was not fat, but her mother was very worried.

[1066] She watched over Miranda's meals, commented, on what she ate, took desserts away.

[1067] Awana had been a fat child, had struggled with weight most of her life, and didn't want to see her daughter suffer the same way.

[1068] All in all, it was your basic mother -daughter wore.

[1069] Miranda hid food from Oana.

[1070] Oana was enraged that despite her hypervigilance, her child was gaining weight.

[1071] My solution floored them both.

[1072] I spoke bluntly to Oana, fill up a pillowcase with M &Ms, give it to Miranda, and whenever it gets even a quarter empty, fill it back up again.

[1073] Can I pause you for one second?

[1074] Yes.

[1075] I want you to really imagine how humongous a pillowcase is And how many fucking bags of M &Ms you'd have to put it in there to fill it up?

[1076] It's true.

[1077] It's a thousand things probably.

[1078] What if she buys the fun size?

[1079] So she has to rip open each of those tiny bags.

[1080] There's still going to be a hundred.

[1081] Oh, fun size.

[1082] I think you're talking about like the family size or whatever.

[1083] No, fun size is small.

[1084] Oh, yes.

[1085] That's a Halloween portion.

[1086] Yeah.

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] But even if it was the big -ass one, it would be a hundred of them.

[1089] I know.

[1090] That's an expensive lesson they learned.

[1091] It is.

[1092] Fill up a pillowcase with M &Ms.

[1093] Give it to Miranda.

[1094] And whenever it gets even a quarter empty, fill it back up again.

[1095] Stop commenting on her body and the war.

[1096] now.

[1097] Come back to me in a month and tell me how it's going.

[1098] Miranda thought she had died and gone to candy -coated heaven.

[1099] Awana just wanted to strangle me. A month later, Awana was convinced that miracles did happen.

[1100] During the first week, Miranda took the pillowcase everywhere.

[1101] She even slept with it.

[1102] For the first time, she could eat what she wanted without feeling rejected by her mother.

[1103] During the second week, she stopped taking the pillowcase to school.

[1104] She ate fewer M &Ms.

[1105] In week three, she hardly touched them.

[1106] By week four, she never wanted to see another M &M again.

[1107] Okay.

[1108] I'm going to pause one more time.

[1109] Imagine being the teacher of Moana.

[1110] Oh, my God.

[1111] What's her name?

[1112] Miranda.

[1113] Oh, Miranda.

[1114] I said Moana.

[1115] Your Miranda's teacher, and you have no idea what's happening at home.

[1116] You just know one of your students shows up with a pillowcase full of evidence.

[1117] She's allowed to eat constantly.

[1118] Some of the story doesn't make sense of me because I also, I think I might do this as a follow -up fact check.

[1119] I think I might fill one up because it's got to be 45 pounds.

[1120] There's another, like there's a weight issue.

[1121] Like, think about, I used to take pillowcases for.

[1122] Halloween.

[1123] Did you?

[1124] Yeah, even when I got a ton of candy, it was like...

[1125] Oh, a third full.

[1126] If.

[1127] Our goal and my brother and I sprinted from the second the lights went on.

[1128] We sprinted through our neighborhood and we ran as fast as we could for three hours and we could fill about two -thirds of a pillowcase.

[1129] Wow, that is a lot.

[1130] Concerted effort, we had a map of how we would run through the streets so we never overlapped.

[1131] Wow.

[1132] I mean, it was complex.

[1133] What if also part of her plan, the therapist, was like, listen, this bag is, is 50 pounds.

[1134] She's going to burn so many calories carrying this thing around that it's going to be a net loss.

[1135] That's funny.

[1136] Okay, by week first she never wanted to see another Eminem again, but more important than Eminem's was that the war had stopped.

[1137] Miranda no longer needed to eat to pay her mother back for constant disapproval.

[1138] She no longer needed the comfort of Eminem's to make up for the hurt of her mother's rejection.

[1139] Oh, wow.

[1140] Yeah, it's deep.

[1141] So much of therapy, I think, right, is just them identifying cyclical patterns.

[1142] And you're just trying to interrupt that pattern.

[1143] No matter what will interrupt it, it might be worth it.

[1144] Yeah.

[1145] That's a fun experiment to do.

[1146] Should I do this with the UN cookies?

[1147] I already eat as many cookies as I want.

[1148] I love cookies.

[1149] I was just thinking the other day, what's my favorite cookie in the world?

[1150] Oh.

[1151] Obviously, I love an Oreo classic.

[1152] Very classic.

[1153] But I think my favorite cookie is this chocolate chip cookie from Levine, bakery in New York.

[1154] It's massive and it's so good.

[1155] Is it damp?

[1156] Is it moyes inside?

[1157] It's, yeah, but the outside's hard.

[1158] Yeah, that's the magic.

[1159] But it's kind of a muffin shape.

[1160] Crispy on the outside, moise in the inside.

[1161] That's the dream of everything.

[1162] Chicken wing.

[1163] Oh, true, true.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] Oh, one thing I just want to say is I think if parents are crazy honest with themselves, or at least I've had this experience where, you know, I think, you know the story already, but I took Lincoln on a press tour with me, just her and I to Miami.

[1166] And she was getting too much attention from adults because anyone who would be around me would want to give her a bunch of attention.

[1167] Yeah, totally.

[1168] And she was talking to baby talk.

[1169] And so she would respond to all these people in baby talk.

[1170] And I was like, at first, this is what I was telling myself.

[1171] Like, Linkin got to communicate with adults in normal language and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1172] I'm almost telling myself what this woman was saying, like, I've been down this road and I'm trying to save her from it.

[1173] Yeah.

[1174] But I did this a few times.

[1175] And then I just had this moment of clarity where I was like, I'm not doing anything.

[1176] anything to help her.

[1177] I'm embarrassed that my child speaks baby talk.

[1178] This is my embarrassment.

[1179] She feels fine speaking baby talk.

[1180] And those people may think it's annoying and she's dumb.

[1181] But that's on her.

[1182] Yeah.

[1183] It's not on me. Yeah.

[1184] But it was all my own ego of like, I don't want people to think I have a three -year -old that talks baby talk.

[1185] Right.

[1186] Right.

[1187] And then I just shut up about it.

[1188] And I was like, well, this works for you.

[1189] You feel more comfortable.

[1190] And then she doesn't speak in baby talk now.

[1191] She doesn't.

[1192] But I think I lie to myself as a parent saying, I want to protect them from this discomfort, but it's way more about your own ego.

[1193] Everything's a failure as you as a parent.

[1194] As soon as you have a kid, your greatest fear is that you're going to fuck it all up.

[1195] And you're almost like protecting your image abroad.

[1196] Yeah.

[1197] Yeah.

[1198] Okay, she said there's a book.

[1199] She thinks it's called Anxiety is the Forgotten Stage of Grief.

[1200] It's called Anxiety, the Missing Stage of Grief.

[1201] A revolutionary approach to understanding and healing the impact of loss.

[1202] It's by Claire Bidwell -Smith.

[1203] Oh, Mrs. Bidwell -Smith.

[1204] Yeah.

[1205] Okay, well, and real quick, so I thought it was so interesting when she was talking about Canadians don't talk about themselves.

[1206] Oh, right, right, right, as we saw with Keith Morrison.

[1207] Then I looked up some things that are like so American that they don't have in other countries.

[1208] Oh, okay.

[1209] Okay, and here's some.

[1210] Oh, good.

[1211] Non -Americans don't understand fake cheese.

[1212] So like squeeze cheese.

[1213] That seems obvious.

[1214] I don't see why other people would understand that.

[1215] That's a very odd thing to have, squeasy, cheesy.

[1216] Oh, so we understand squeeze each.

[1217] Yeah, yeah.

[1218] These are things that we know.

[1219] That are inherently American.

[1220] Okay, okay.

[1221] That other people are like, huh?

[1222] Because to her, everyone was like talking about themselves, and she was like, what?

[1223] Like she couldn't wrap her head around.

[1224] Yeah, self -promotion, self -indulgence.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] This show.

[1227] Yeah.

[1228] 20 % tip in the United States, not customary other places.

[1229] Tourists visiting the U .S. noticed large gaps in the bathroom stalled between the door and the frame.

[1230] That is true.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] It's enormous.

[1233] I often put a piece of toilet paper.

[1234] I hang it between that gap.

[1235] You do?

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] If I'm going to masturbate in there.

[1238] Oh, wow.

[1239] Yeah.

[1240] At a restaurant?

[1241] Have you ever?

[1242] Masturbated at a restaurant?

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] I'm pretty sure from the ages, you know, 12 to 35, I probably masturbated everywhere.

[1245] Wow.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] My favorite was tracking Aaron Weekly's masturbation because he would be all over the city with it.

[1248] There was this really janky restaurant.

[1249] on caboodles, what a name, at the end of our industrial complex street where we worked in the car industry.

[1250] He used to pop into caboodles to go to the bathroom and just have a pull.

[1251] Oh, wow.

[1252] Yeah, never ate at caboodles, but it'll be like midday and he didn't know where to go.

[1253] And he just pop into caboodles.

[1254] And I was like, God bless you.

[1255] Give it a jerk?

[1256] A little tug and carry on.

[1257] Oh, my goodness, true.

[1258] Okay, yellow school buses aren't found outside the U .S. Oh.

[1259] Yeah, this is interesting.

[1260] That's a shocker.

[1261] I didn't know that one.

[1262] The U .S. is home to extremely long highways, the likes of which are not easily found elsewhere.

[1263] Five out of ten of the world's ten longest highways are located in the U .S. Okay, garbage disposals are common in the U .S., but not in other places.

[1264] That sounds very American.

[1265] Just throw your trash in the sink.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] Okay, grape -flavored skittles can't be found everywhere.

[1268] Oh, okay.

[1269] In Europe, the purple skittles are black current flavored.

[1270] Yuck.

[1271] I think I like that.

[1272] Black current, no thanks.

[1273] That's pretty much it.

[1274] What feelings were you having?

[1275] I was like going back and forth on this.

[1276] We're watching the Lance Armstrong documentary, which is phenomenal.

[1277] And they're going through how the traditionally how the winning teams behave, like the different cultural characteristics.

[1278] Yeah.

[1279] And how like the Spanish are very humble.

[1280] You know, the Germans were this.

[1281] The Italians, which was fun, is that they're very outlaw.

[1282] Routy.

[1283] Yeah, outrageous.

[1284] And then they show the Americans and we're just like, you know, we're as belligerent as it gets.

[1285] basically.

[1286] And I was like, oh, God, we're so belligerent.

[1287] And I was, like, feeling kind of shame about that.

[1288] But then I kind of, like, I swang back.

[1289] And I was like, well, do you need that to invent the microprocessor?

[1290] Do you need that to invent?

[1291] So it's all interesting, isn't it?

[1292] It's like there's upsides and downs.

[1293] There's a gross side of it all.

[1294] Spray cheese probably is not our crowning achievement.

[1295] But, you know.

[1296] I used to love it.

[1297] It's interesting.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] Everything's, like, out of some.

[1300] Yeah, pros and cons.

[1301] Pros and cons.

[1302] For sure.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] What price do you put on innovation, I guess?

[1305] Because that's, that's really the...

[1306] But other places have innovation.

[1307] Yeah, but no one really compares pound for pound innovation with America.

[1308] And part of it is our like individualist, right?

[1309] Everyone wants to be a superstar and a bazillionaire.

[1310] And the drive to do it is so incredible.

[1311] Yeah.

[1312] Like even Jordan.

[1313] If Jordan wasn't ever going to get any recognition for all that.

[1314] Oh, Michael Jordan.

[1315] If they even Jordan, the country.

[1316] Oh, I'm not sure what they do as far as celebrating their victories.

[1317] But yeah, Michael Jordan, you wonder if he was going to get no recognition for all that insanely hard work and focus in like 20 hours a day dedicated to basketball.

[1318] Without recognition, does he do it?

[1319] Yeah, I don't know.

[1320] If it was truly shared in like in some of the Asian countries, that's way more about the group, knowing that on the other side of all that was going to be the mantle of greatest player of all time.

[1321] Right.

[1322] I think that's when you don't want to go to the gym and you don't, and your knees hurt and you don't want to play that fourth quarter, all those things.

[1323] I think part of why he does it is that.

[1324] It is so American, though.

[1325] It's so true.

[1326] Like, even on team sports, like, I was thinking, what is the most team and then, like, synchronized swimming?

[1327] So, you need to be identical.

[1328] You can't be a standout or you ruin it.

[1329] But they probably still point out people who are a little bit better than the other, like, have been doing it for way longer.

[1330] Like, Americans do that.

[1331] I kind of think, though, part of it's that bloom.

[1332] thing though it's like it's easier to identify with the notion of one person but you think you could be michael jordan well again yeah how many kids fantasy was to be michael jordan versus how many kids fantasy was to be on the bulls that's yeah probably one billionth as many people are like i'm gonna play for the bulls when i grow up this i want to be michael jordan that's true well that's all all right thank you thank you for your due diligence um always always follow armchair expert on the one app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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