The Avett Brothers

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm joined by my musician sister, Monica Padman.

[2] Today, we are talking with the Avet brothers, Seth and Scott.

[3] Mm -hmm.

[4] I love these two so much.

[5] They're really, lovely people.

[6] I really, really encourage people to watch the wonderful documentary about them on HBO called May It Last that Jud Apatow made.

[7] Yeah, it's great.

[8] They are American folk rock singers, musicians from North Carolina.

[9] their albums include true sadness magpie in the dandelion i in love in you emotionalism and then their new album their 10th album closer than together comes out october fourth these boys are as pure and as good as it comes and they play for us which is so exciting such a treat please enjoy the ava brothers not only on the podcast but boy look them up for when they're coming to your town there is no better live show we went we went We went.

[10] Yeah, right after this recording.

[11] So fun.

[12] We had the time of our life.

[13] So please enjoy.

[14] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

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[16] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[17] He's an armchair expert.

[18] Guys.

[19] So it begins.

[20] Now, Monica hates when I do this, but I'm fearless.

[21] about doing this.

[22] The handsomeness of these brothers is it not fucking overwhelming.

[23] It is.

[24] It's a lot for our small attic.

[25] It is.

[26] And you know, the real, the real magic here isn't just how beautiful you both are.

[27] But somehow, generally when a guy's as beautiful as y 'all, guys don't like that guy.

[28] You know what I'm saying?

[29] But you're still likable and tens.

[30] We get a lot of man love.

[31] Yeah, yes.

[32] We'll try to keep this straight for the listener, but obviously Scott just spoke.

[33] What if my solution to this was every time you spoke, you would just go, Seth, yeah, I totally.

[34] Yeah, we've done it.

[35] But then, if I really want to say something, but I don't want to take responsibility for saying it, I could say, oh, this is Scott.

[36] That's right.

[37] I think Seth's probably the greatest musician.

[38] We always, we always, we always joke about how when you enter like a hotel lobby or anywhere, where you're in any kind of close or far proximity with Scott, you can hear him.

[39] You can't hear what he's saying, but you can hear, oh.

[40] Just a little murmur.

[41] Yeah, so this is Scott.

[42] But it does perfectly kind of bring up immediately, one of the most interesting parts of you guys, is that you share an identity, which is a very precarious, fruitful, and yet wrought with all kinds of things, I think, probably that are unique to your situation.

[43] which is you guys are brothers, you're known collectively as a team, and you share all the credit, I'm assuming.

[44] It's probably a very rewarding thing, and then I bet it's also complicated.

[45] My head goes immediately to imagining my brother and I doing what you guys do, which is like, A, your neighbors, right?

[46] And then you're on a bus together.

[47] How many days a year?

[48] I mean, ultimately, this is Scott, by the way, ultimately traveling as well as playing shows.

[49] I mean, I bet, 100 days.

[50] 110 days.

[51] Yeah, and for most of the folks listening that have siblings, you know, as much as you might love your sibling, I bet it's a majority that wouldn't choose to be 100 days in one vehicle together.

[52] Yeah, we talk to people all the time that say, I haven't seen my brother or sister in two years or three years, you know, I don't see them but once every blue moon.

[53] Yeah, so it's an incredible gift, but I also imagine that there's all kinds of interesting things.

[54] You guys have to navigate that.

[55] Yeah, but the reason that it works so well for us, at least at this point, at least one of the factors would be that for anyone listen to this or anyone that's in our age bracket, late 30s, 40s, you think about, goodness, what if I had to work this closely with my sibling now, as we are now?

[56] But they haven't spent the last 20 years sort of changing together.

[57] We had sort of a very typical older brother, younger brother, dynamic, I think, from our teenage years, me being four years, younger looking up to Scott you know looking to him for example and that still exists but when we started working together started making art together we have gone through a lot of our growing and a lot of our mistakes together and have helped each other process them and figure out what comes next together so on a lesser scale but like a marriage even within the band as well it's like that you know you have to change together figure out how to forgive each other as you're going so it's easier for me at 39 and Scott at 43 to be able to do this because we were doing this at 29 and then 33 and we were doing this at 19 and 23 you know yeah and then some bands will run into the thing where either a manager starts trying to intervene and make peace or even in the case of like metallica they brought in that famous therapist to try to glue things together I have to imagine in the times that you guys have had your growing pains do mom and dad intervene do you ever get a call from Jim that's like all right boys now stop fucking around you both got a great thing here and you're being but hurt about that and you just need to grow up like have they ever stepped in we've never had a crack in a system enough for us to have other family members or anyone intervene bob will be the dad there's been a couple times early on where bob would step in and say hey guys you know here's the deal and you're wrong and doesn't matter he's right but the point is that this is right that's wrong.

[58] I think more our dad or mom would say something without us asking, like when we're spending individual time with them, might say.

[59] It's not like a direct thing.

[60] I don't think we're like we would seek counsel for mom or dad because of a rift between us.

[61] But if there's a rift between us, it's indicative of an imbalance for either one of us or both of us, you know.

[62] And if it's that deep, if there's something going on that's that big, I'm probably going to be seeking counsel from dad anyway.

[63] I just talked with dad the other day about a dear friend who recently died and I just needed to talk to dad and he really helped but if Scott and I are arguing I mean I think that we need to look at like what's causing this like it's probably not whatever point that we think we're arguing right yeah yeah well I'm married you guys are both married yeah when you're fighting about the dishwasher you're not fighting about the dishwasher right right I mean it's hard to like let that go take that out of your clenched teeth right You're like, this is about the dishwasher.

[64] And they shut the cupboard doors.

[65] Right.

[66] If you just did that.

[67] And especially if the other one presents that it might not be the dishwasher.

[68] Oh, you can't say that.

[69] Then it's like it's even one more thing.

[70] We're like, no, you're not right, I'm right.

[71] Oh, man. Oh, yeah.

[72] Wait, who's Bob?

[73] You mentioned Bob.

[74] Sorry.

[75] He's the bass player.

[76] Bob's a bass player.

[77] So Bob was like the third.

[78] He was the one that came in performing with Seth and I that he really pushed us to get on the road, which was a key for us because we were so self -centered in how we exist.

[79] Like we just expected that the world would come to us and Bob did a good job of going, guys, that's not going to happen.

[80] Let's get on the road.

[81] It's just we need to go to the world.

[82] Yeah.

[83] So there's a great documentary about you guys called May at Last that's on HBO.

[84] I urge everyone to watch it.

[85] It is one of the most beautiful little journeys.

[86] I'm so jealous the whole time watching it.

[87] There seems to be enough so that I'm even suspicious of it where I'm like, how the fuck did these two?

[88] you guys have a dad you can go talk to and give you guidance and stuff right out of the gates you're looking at maybe 15 % of america's got that right and then you just grew up in this kind of like concord north carolina it's kind of pastoral and beautiful and there's just this amazing rhythm to that place that's great you have fresh air and open spaces you guys can somehow coexist together and be prolific all that seems like a mystery to me to the degree where i was like hold on a second here is there some hidden skeleton in these guys i mean it's just so beautiful it's it's so enviable what you guys get to share together well let's start with grandma grandma was a piano player right she was a concert piano player she was headed there she ended up being a church pianist but yeah she was directed yeah what we're told is that that was that was in the car table as a 16 17 year old she was massively talented and that was in the future that was what was going to happen before she met Clegg the preacher yeah wait is that granddad yes oh what he is so she met she was the pianist penis penis at a rough word for me you just you just want so bad to leave I know it should be your favorite word she's a penile penis I want to be a penis penis I love penis uh so she she was the piano player at the church and then they fell in love yeah oh that's exciting nice that is really exciting was that frowning upon or is that fine we're not sure how that all went yeah they weren't catholic we're not going to get in the weeds on that anyways grandma's a great piano player she was critical of a i remember introducing her to a girlfriend and she was this was in the final years of her life and i remember her pulling me down with this girlfriend that i was with a long time girlfriend she pulled me down to the bedside and said if she doesn't love music she's not the one because she'd asked her a question pertaining something to music you're going to learn a lot she was nervous and she answered wrong.

[89] And my grandmother right in front of her said this.

[90] And I'm pretty sure she heard her.

[91] And this girlfriend of mine, her family was from Michigan.

[92] Oh, okay.

[93] But she's a great woman.

[94] She was critical.

[95] Music was important to her.

[96] It was a priority.

[97] That's why she always liked Seth better.

[98] Oh, she did.

[99] Were you like a better piano student?

[100] Mm -hmm.

[101] I was.

[102] Yeah.

[103] Okay.

[104] And I found a letter within the last few years.

[105] I mean, as soon as I read it, I was like, God, this is like, it's such an odd sort of ghostly validation, but it was a letter from her from Grandma Aivet to maybe my dad, I'm not sure, I guess I'm only three or four years old and, you know, there's all these grandchildren and she just mentions me by name and says he seems to be able to hold a tune there really may be something in music for him one day or something like that.

[106] Wow.

[107] And I was seriously like three or four years old and I was just like, yes.

[108] Grandma, anointed.

[109] You knew, and we were always really close.

[110] you are yeah and then dad of course he played guitar as well right he did it was mom musical not so much she wouldn't claim to be no okay but dad did play guitar you kind of you like hesitated there like well you know it was always just we were always told mom can't sing uh -huh you know it's almost like she said well i can't sing i'm gonna you know i don't know mama can't sing maybe she loves music she loves music so when you say she musical maybe her job in music was just being around it and being that person that listens because there's a you know there's a place for that so i i think she was instrumental no pun intended in being in a musical family i think you should intend that part i did i own that early own that earlier don't you think they sound so nice even just talking yes even just in your headphones okay so great i was going to bring this up at some point i'm going to do it right now i did you might not know this story or maybe you do but it's really funny and i'm referring to scott but the first time i met set he was brought to house by his beautiful now wife.

[111] Jennifer Carpenter.

[112] Jennifer and Kristen are old -time friends.

[113] So Jennifer stopped by with her new beau and it was Seth.

[114] And you know what's funny is my mom's in town right now and she was there that night.

[115] And she reminded me of this last night.

[116] So I meet Seth.

[117] He's a really likable guy.

[118] We're getting on great immediately in a conversation.

[119] And then I'm just kind of trying to figure out what's going on.

[120] I'm like, oh, so you're a musician.

[121] He's like, yeah, yeah.

[122] And I'm like, cool, do you tour a lot?

[123] He goes, yeah, yeah, we tour, we tour.

[124] Now, like, is it rough?

[125] Like, you know, you're in vans?

[126] Does it get exhausting?

[127] He's like, oh, no, we haven't been in vans for a while.

[128] And I'm like, okay, they're not in vans.

[129] I'm like, oh, do you have a bus?

[130] And he goes, yeah, yep, we got a couple buses.

[131] And I was like, oh, my God, they got a couple buses.

[132] I'm out to lunch them.

[133] They're doing it.

[134] This is a real goddamn outfit here.

[135] And then so Zet left, and then I immediately went on a YouTube rabbit hole of like then watching everything you guys have done but it was just so it's so embarrassing me trying to figure out like what I was dealing with here like was Willie Nelson at the house or I love that I love that like in like in your presentation of the story it's like about how you didn't know about either whatever the popularity of the band or whatever but really in the conversation as soon as you learn we were in buses the entire conversation was about what kind of buses what kind of power what year like what they could house you know like the layout of the buses.

[136] How many popouts?

[137] How many popouts?

[138] How many bunks, all that stuff?

[139] And that's still.

[140] It was like, oh, you're in Prevos.

[141] You're in Prevos or New Halls.

[142] Vogue, you're in Prevos.

[143] Those are my favorite.

[144] Oh, my God, Prevos, yeah.

[145] Yeah, but probably the only, like, moral high ground I can claim is it wasn't.

[146] I didn't get more interested in you because you were successful.

[147] I just got really dialed into those buses.

[148] Right, but I mean, I knew, and I knew Jennifer and Kristen were close and had been for many years.

[149] I guess they moved to L .A. together.

[150] Mm -hmm.

[151] Yeah.

[152] And, so I knew about Chris and I knew about their friendship.

[153] And she was like, oh, yeah, so Dax is her husband.

[154] I was like, idioticracy.

[155] Oh, so you came in with one credit for me. So you...

[156] It's idiocry.

[157] You didn't have to ask me like what.

[158] Oh, no. We fell in love.

[159] I fell in love with you.

[160] I can't say, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[161] Oh, for sure.

[162] Yeah.

[163] There was no turning back.

[164] And then I started downloading songs of yours, and I had some favorites immediately.

[165] I just fucking love Laundering Room.

[166] Boy, does that song hit me immediately.

[167] But then I started seeing you guys.

[168] live and when I started seeing you live I was like oh there's a whole other dimension that happens in real life with you guys that is and generally I don't like concerts I guess are getting preoccupied with like is this going to be an hour and a half how many times they're gonna come back out and forth with the fucking lighters can't we just settle on just here's the yeah and I see you guys and I'm like it's like a Tarantino movie I want two more hours I've never not been I it was my daughter's first concert I took her to with you guys you just there's something that happens there that is greater than some of y 'all's parts and even getting to watch you guys rehearsed backstage before you go out it's been such a privilege to witness that and how you all warm up and everything it's so beautiful i cannot recommend enough for people even if you're lukewarm on the music which i don't think you would be you got to go see them live and it's so so special it's so this is generic it's so alive you really get the sense that anything could happen like it's i mean it's the reason that we're in our 19th year or whatever this is i mean that it's the reason for sure right i mean scott was mentioned earlier there is no template really for like touring that we've ever known like we don't tour for records we've just we just tour yeah we just tour i think that's a response to how good it is i mean not our show but how good the experience is for us and since we did start and we were in a van for eight years you know so like we had the front row seat for this insane connection first in in coffee shops and pizza restaurants and mexican restaurants and bars and whatever and so i think we got a taste for it we got a taste for like seeing this far away like we're sitting right now with you in that chair and us on this couch like that far away when a song is registering with someone for the first time and it's like really really touching them for the first time and it's just like that's the thing that's the thing and you don't get that making a record you get a different thing for making a record which is wonderful well you're almost like a stand -up act where you're going out and you're trying out jokes and you're finding out which ones work and you're developing from this real -time feedback of what is special about you, right?

[169] Scott just brought it up.

[170] The value of the listeners kind of underestimated, but your audience has probably taught you so much about what's special about you, yeah?

[171] No doubt.

[172] Absolutely.

[173] No doubt.

[174] And it's not as simple as, well, the more people that like the song, the better the song.

[175] There are many layers of this, and a lot of them we probably don't fully understand.

[176] But much like a stand -up comedian, Pete Holmes is a good friend.

[177] we were talking with him about how when something does hit and when everyone is together, you really do feel like a single entity, you know, differently than just talking about it philosophically or, you know, intellectually, it's like this is really happening.

[178] We are really the same, you know?

[179] Yeah, it's like all the flashlights aimed in the air join into one beam or the fucking Ghostbusters.

[180] Yeah, the tractor beam.

[181] Yeah, yeah.

[182] Yeah, it's something really special.

[183] And it's something that can't really be put into words in this room talking about it, you know?

[184] Yeah, yeah.

[185] Well, we have to try.

[186] We have to try.

[187] And some people possibly can, but there is something to that experience.

[188] And we're not ignorant to it.

[189] We can tell.

[190] We don't really ever think in terms of like, oh, yeah, when we retire, when we stop or whatever.

[191] It's just, it's this open -ended thing because there is such beauty in the connection.

[192] Yeah.

[193] Back to Concord.

[194] Being four years younger, was Scott crushing in high school?

[195] Was he the North Star of what you were going to try to become?

[196] In a way.

[197] In a way, yeah, because Scott has always been a front man. in a way and i've always thought of him in that way and his uh his like his middle son now has the same quality like this crazy star quality x factor x factor and also embraces it and it's weird because watching his spiritual journeys that has been at odds a little bit with his star quality so watching those things converge and like as he grows older like spiritual wisdom and and that quest running into the thing that made him want to be out in front of people so much and and then and sort of each of them informing the other to where they can both actually be benefited by the other rather than detracted, you know.

[198] Yeah.

[199] As kids, there is no spiritual journey that you're aware of at the time, you know, and all it is is just me, me, me. Yeah.

[200] And Scott did it so well, he's so handsome and was so good at being a frontman.

[201] I was more, I really wanted to be like a musician first and then maybe like a rock star or second.

[202] Whereas I think Scott had more of the rock star.

[203] He couldn't turn it off.

[204] That's what he is.

[205] Yeah.

[206] And the musical qualities would come later to sort of bolster that and to make him, I mean, I'm speaking out of term, but maybe to validate the showmanship.

[207] Yeah.

[208] Because he, you know, eventually fell in love with the banjo and then really went into a full -on study of it.

[209] Well, you're a hell of a banjo player.

[210] Well, thank you.

[211] Whereas, like, when I was like seven or eight, I was like in love, let me practice.

[212] I want to get really good at this.

[213] And Scott was like 20 or so when he found the banjo and like, and then was like, okay, I'm going to put the work in.

[214] So we, young.

[215] That's a perfect pairing, though.

[216] Yeah, yeah.

[217] It's going to be a great marriage.

[218] Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

[219] I'm like, Scott was a great soccer player.

[220] I wanted to be a great soccer player.

[221] You know, it seemed like everything he did, he went into it with the confidence that was either warranted or not, but a lot of times it seemed to work.

[222] Yeah.

[223] So, yeah, I always look, and I still look up to him for sure.

[224] And Scott, it does seem like when I look at you, you do wrestle with this duality of being, like, staunchly committed to being humble.

[225] Yep.

[226] And then yet you have a job that is very extroverted.

[227] Yeah, yeah.

[228] And does demand that you own your essence at times.

[229] Totally.

[230] I mean, when I look in hindsight, at all we've done, like I've drug the craft of playing an instrument along behind me, and I always led with, get me up there, and then somebody help me out, just let me get up there and do it.

[231] And I've got everything it takes.

[232] I knew that.

[233] I believe that.

[234] I still believe it.

[235] I think more what the, when we talk about the spiritual and the, like, humble, being humble, you know, I'm more willing now, I want to get in a G -wagon.

[236] Okay, yeah.

[237] I want to cruise around.

[238] Sure.

[239] I want to get on stage.

[240] and I want to be a rock star because I'm worth every bit of it.

[241] I know that now.

[242] Yeah, I like it.

[243] I have struggled as I went into a spiritual journey.

[244] It's opened my eyes to how funny at all this.

[245] It is.

[246] And how silly it all, like ridiculous.

[247] A lot of your music, though, explores that.

[248] It does.

[249] Vanity.

[250] It does.

[251] Yeah, the song Vanity.

[252] But you, I assume, did you write that one?

[253] No, Scott wrote it.

[254] Scott wrote it, but you sing it.

[255] Yeah, that was one of the times where we kind of just played with that.

[256] The singing parts sort of dictated more of who.

[257] would do what rather than the writing of it right yeah that even right there is interesting because it's like is there any chance that you were willing to own all that enough in a song but weren't ready to be the face of it you know and we were talking about this like there's a lot in that the conversation about ownership of songs you know how do you represent a song that you didn't write the lyrics to maybe you don't even understand you know I think for that song just you know and that that song exemplifies some of that silliness it needed two textures they were like two characters to the, you know, ah, and then, yeah, nah, nah, nah, you know.

[258] So that's why, that's actually how we introduced the song.

[259] He's like, I got this song that's like, eh, and I was like, perfect, so it'll be in C, and then we'll have the minor.

[260] Yeah.

[261] But the silliness of it all.

[262] I think that's how I can get on stage and be as bigger rock stars I want to be on stage by just realizing how funny it all is.

[263] Now, do you guys have the problem at all?

[264] Like, the transition from being on the road to getting back home, is it, so?

[265] it requires some work right serious business yeah yeah yeah and if you guys like over the years of practicing this if you refined it and got better because it's there's two really different mental spaces aren't they completely 100 like i know i have to go home and there's like all types of surrendering that you have to do and submitting submit submission complete submission it might mean you have to go straight to work as soon as you walk through the door it might mean you have to tell everybody okay i actually have to be by myself for for a minute and then i'm going to be tenfold the helper here and I'm taking direction from whoever it gives it to me. We still have missteps for sure.

[266] But if you guys are on tour and you say, I want to stop at Taco Bell, we're stopping at Taco Bell.

[267] You have the, you know, you have a position to say, no, no, no, I don't really care of everyone in this group wants to go to Taco Bell, we're going to Taco Bell.

[268] Sure.

[269] And then you get in your family car and you're not going to Taco Bell.

[270] No, no. You're going wherever Mom thinks that.

[271] No Taco Bell for you.

[272] Absolutely not.

[273] yeah i'm definitely still in the revising process there right i mean it's definitely a challenge and that kind of goes into another thing that i'm interested in i think there's some parallel between like doing movies where you go away you're in this little bubble for six weeks you're in a hotel room whatever and you're kind of you know you're creating the exact world you want and you have a lot of control over that and everything and so when i'm at home i desire that and then when i'm there i'm desiring being back at home and i guess you're aiming for enjoying being at both places you do that too yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm at home for a long time i'm like i want to be in a hotel room and i want to think about nothing and then i get in that hotel room and it's fucking awesome for 36 hours and i'm like and you're missing you're they're growing up and you're missing it yes and i'm like i'm a piece of shit i'm selfish i need to be back at that house and then i get back at the house i'm like i need to get the fuck out of here right it might be a little bit of evidence that it's not the place that you're in there's no geographical curious for you right yeah internal i was just thinking about how like you know our minds initially go to the difficulty of changing those roles but you know there's also a lot of freedom there's a lot of beauty in being able to be like oh man good now i don't have to be the boss you know i can just like you know i can't i can submit if my wife needs that then i can provide her with that and then then the question becomes more about like because of my own spiritual journey i like you know reading words of wise men and women i want to be meek and i want to be open and be a servant, you know, but there's a limit on that where your wife is finally like, well, can you just made the decision?

[274] I'm too, I'm spun out.

[275] I don't know what to do.

[276] You just say so.

[277] What are we going to do?

[278] And you're like, oh, okay, well, I got to be the boss again, you know.

[279] Yeah.

[280] And it's, it's weird.

[281] But there is, I don't know if there's a revision that can be made to where, like, now you've got to figure it out, you know.

[282] Right.

[283] But in general, do you guys find, like, how long on the road before you're like, I need to get home?

[284] And then how long at home before you're like, I got to get the fuck back on the road?

[285] Two weeks.

[286] Two weeks.

[287] After two weeks, which we are beyond two weeks now, it starts to get very difficult.

[288] Yeah, mentally, it's like that, but then also there's proof in the performances and, like, the other night, we're just past two weeks, 10 minutes or less before we're going to go on stage.

[289] I remember I've got to get something out of the bus, I run to the bus, and I've forgotten the code.

[290] Like, my mind is, like, just the edges start getting a little blurred, you know, and maybe missing chords on stage or whatever, two weeks of hyper -focus.

[291] And like we're talking about, the beauty of connecting with a crowd like that, it takes its toll in a way.

[292] Like, there's this awesome energy, exchange and there's something unspoken where you, you know that these 5 ,000 people are not expecting you to match all of them one by one, but something in you wants to.

[293] Of course.

[294] You know, they're here for you.

[295] You're here for them.

[296] So, like, again, about two weeks of that, you start, you know, the, the, it's like a cocaine run.

[297] Eventually, you're going to have to take a one week nap.

[298] Right.

[299] Which is why after two weeks, we start taking a lot of cocaine.

[300] That's right.

[301] We have another two weeks to get.

[302] To get over that hump.

[303] That makes a, that's the skeleton you're looking for.

[304] for nothing can make me happier i hate the yeah right i hate the reality of it too is that usually after we're at that point where our brains are gone and we're forgetting the codes and we're just like struggling to be present things happen in the shows that are the most magical wild yeah it's ridiculous yeah the wildest and then the little magic moments i mean it's i stepped into the crowd yesterday last night and i had a couple bro love moments with a couple fellows that were just like Life -changing.

[305] I mean, I was not present.

[306] Like, we went on stage, I had a bad stomach cake.

[307] I was feeling bad.

[308] I was, uh, it got up there, I got going.

[309] And I went off the stage and saw those guys.

[310] I mean, I was just like, this energy into me. Yes.

[311] And then here I am.

[312] I'm back.

[313] And they're like, I don't know, I can't believe what just happened.

[314] We've had that on smaller levels where we, Monica has food poisoning.

[315] Yeah.

[316] We go out on stage in Dallas, but then there's a few thousand people there.

[317] And then all of a sudden I look at Monica.

[318] She don't look green anymore.

[319] And she's ripping it.

[320] yeah it's pretty amazing it's weird and there's a physical response yeah it's a weird thing like the scenario and the beauty of the moment and the opportunity for connection can actually have a physical effect it's so wild yeah it can change your chemistry a little bit yeah but that's also good to keep in mind in general in life like if you connect with someone you feel better you physically feel better as opposed to walking around in life yeah that's what is all about I mean this is what the whole thing is about that's why we make our art, music, film, to connect.

[321] I mean, our contribution and our duty, above all, is to love people.

[322] And our contribution is to make things that relate to people.

[323] And through those things, that's our vehicle to actually directly, physically, emotionally, like, you know, connect with it.

[324] Yeah.

[325] And also, people are connecting via you, like other people are connecting.

[326] Right.

[327] That's right, too.

[328] Yeah.

[329] Well, yeah, you're giving an actual voice, a literal voice to emotions, people have that I have that I couldn't articulate in any other way but what you guys are doing incredible where is the north star come from because you you guys aren't deeply religious or are you deeply religious like where is this kind of kindness and in loves number one where do you think that all comes from no I would say that we are deeply spiritual but did mom and dad they raised you that way because I could go to a oh this they've got like this kind of southern quality that I could only grasp at is it that is there's a kind of you know where we're from perhaps some of the the blue collar treatment of life and the old school sort of southern etiquette makes its way into just your way just your cadence you know like how we are which might be part of what you're talking about maybe maybe not but I think that it it bleeds into the spiritual conversation of how you treat people.

[330] Our parents definitely taught us that you need to love people.

[331] Though there was not an overtly, we went to church.

[332] You know, we went to church every Sunday, went to Sunday school.

[333] But, you know, we didn't have parents that were like, do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal word saving?

[334] That was never articulated to us in any kind of fashion.

[335] In fact, I remember dad full on saying, no, it's about being good to each other.

[336] loving people and church fellowship fellowship yeah camaraderie and and church itself more or less provided a venue to come together with other people see that other people are hurting you know the methodist church which is what we grew up in which is our grandfather was a methodist minister we sit down it's an hour long service the sermon itself is maybe 15 minutes it starts with people getting up and shaking hands saying good morning there's a prayer and there's a in our church there was always a, you know, opening the floor.

[337] This person has cancer.

[338] This person is, you know, struggling with this, this person, whatever.

[339] Like that kind of, it was like a community.

[340] Yeah, like community meeting, basically.

[341] That kind of deal with the teachings of Jesus at the center of it, but it felt pretty social and pretty conversational.

[342] As we've gotten older, we've, like people do a lot of times, when they're hitting that kind of midway point, God willing, you make it to 89 years old, the midway points around 40.

[343] You start asking a lot of those questions and trying to find out where do I land in my beliefs, system you know yeah and since then for many many years there's just been an ongoing conversation at least between scott and i and bob and like all you know everyone that's part of our group but it's informed by jesus and it's informed by the tau and it's informed by buddhism and i mean it for my own part i can say that i'm not sure what the north star is but i'm kind of open i'm open to getting it from i mean from andy griffith if i need to you know like i you know get it from where i don't know where it is either but i do get a pretty visceral sense of when i'm not pursuing it right right you know it's like i almost know what it's not more than i know what it is right but the more i learn um and like you know richard roar is a big a big one in our our conversation now uh is he no it's got my head to be better at giving the background of who he's a franciscan monk he's uh he's an albuquerque he just wrote a book called the universal christ i think his uh which is his overall message of his life he's 76 now if you research him and study what he's written let's see how do i put it i think the overall message to try to overall message richard roars ridiculous yeah refine a whole book into his whole life's work really but he's a mystic okay he's a christian mystic but his ultimate message is we get caught up in the words uh you know we get caught up and we've misunderstood the bible completely we've misunderstood what jesus was trying to the message the message we have gotten caught up with proving that Jesus is the one versus falling when Jesus was saying.

[344] And defining what the Christ is, apart from the man that we have assigned that as a last name to.

[345] Right.

[346] My guess is, or what I've gotten from Richard Roar's writings is, if someone calls it waste bucket, I worship the wastebasket, but it causes you to live well and treat up, love others and forgive yourself and forgive and be able to live.

[347] Some kind of harmony.

[348] And so, then it is the is.

[349] It is the same is that is over there And we're getting so caught up with With what we title it, the semantics.

[350] And in, so I think it's important to find that in all of them We, you know, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[351] That's the, I feel so often that people say, Well, if you're religious, that's bad.

[352] If you're spiritual, it's good.

[353] But that's kind of like just that, well, no, there's so much good in religion.

[354] So, you know.

[355] So many lines that have been drawn that have caused so much trouble.

[356] Well, also, I'm a very outspoken atheist.

[357] Sure.

[358] And yet I don't deny.

[359] the data that when people do congregate in church, they have all kinds of metrics that trend higher as far as quality of life, live longer, all these kind of things.

[360] So you'd be foolish to deny the certain values that exist within all these communities.

[361] And we're working together.

[362] We're the same body.

[363] That's the most important message that we are.

[364] I am.

[365] You are.

[366] We are of the same body.

[367] I like that.

[368] How can you deny another?

[369] We are part of the same.

[370] We are the human race.

[371] Yeah, we are the planet.

[372] We are one organism.

[373] Yeah.

[374] It's an incredible, challenging way to think.

[375] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[376] What's up, guys?

[377] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[378] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[379] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

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[394] on Amazon Music.

[395] What's great about you is you took a journey.

[396] It's not like you guys started playing the music you do today.

[397] In fact, when I watched May It Last, I was excited to find out you guys started as kind of a punk rock band, yeah?

[398] You had a band Nemo, right?

[399] What led to the transition or what was it that didn't happen in that genre that then?

[400] Yeah, there were two main factors, and they sort of, fortunately or unfortunately, if you at the time converged.

[401] One was the breaking up of that band.

[402] It was a five -piece band.

[403] We were at a crossroads at that time, where young men, we're out of high school, it's kind of like do or die.

[404] You know, late teens, early 20s, it's like, are we going to do this?

[405] What does it look like to do this?

[406] When you do this, when you go from being a high school or a college band into, like, we're going to be a band that makes it or whatever, what does that mean, you know?

[407] And to what level do I have to start looking at this thing as like a grown -up business, you know?

[408] Like, that's not cool or whatever.

[409] So the five of us were very close.

[410] We had all been playing music for a long, long time, a decade.

[411] For me and the drummer, we've been playing for a decade.

[412] You know, Scott and I've been writing songs for longer than that.

[413] And when we broke up, it was heartbreaking like a first love.

[414] Heart break.

[415] Rich.

[416] First love.

[417] Because you've certainly been telling yourselves the whole time.

[418] It's us.

[419] It's us.

[420] It's us.

[421] It was pain.

[422] We're going to do it.

[423] It's us versus the world.

[424] It's identity shattering.

[425] Exactly.

[426] And we've got the thing.

[427] Like, we know we've got the thing.

[428] Like, we can do this, you know?

[429] Yeah.

[430] And so the band broke up.

[431] That was unavoidable, for whatever reason, for the changes that were happening.

[432] Whatever, the band broke up.

[433] Yeah, just, yeah, just, you know, being that, that malleable, excited, energetic, afraid kid.

[434] And Scott and I were also in a bit of an American roots music renaissance.

[435] We were just really discovering, like, we don't need to be looking at, like heavy rock music from from England or from California or New York like we're from North Carolina this is where it's at like this is where it's at Blonde Boy Fuller Charlie Pool Doc Watson it's here we need to narrow this down a little bit and we were like we weren't just thinking like in terms of like an agenda like that we were falling in love with this American Roots music and so much of it was from right beneath our feet for me coming out of that I was really hesitant to build a band like I just me and Scott just me and Scott that's it I know we'll never break up up.

[436] Please want to avoid the heartbreak ever again.

[437] I wanted to avoid the heartbreak.

[438] I didn't want just like the lesson you learned is never love again.

[439] Exactly.

[440] For that time, that worked.

[441] I was 21 years old.

[442] I was like, I don't want to meet a drum or meet a baseball.

[443] It's just going to me and Scott.

[444] And Scott had been playing the banjo for a few years by then, two, three years.

[445] And then it was like, all right, let's just do this, just learning Rambling Jack Elliott songs, Woody Guthrie's songs, Doc Watson, and trying to do that.

[446] And it felt really natural straight away like our voices together like that without this wall of distortion in front of us to hide our own insecurities about our lyricism and all that like it was like suddenly like uh -oh we got to be good like you got to have the goods yeah we got to have the goods and so we start with all these covers and we were trying to write songs as well but Scott and I were falling in love with the music that was natural to our heritage you grow up on any of that not really not really what a dad listen to I keep saying dad I'm obsessed with dads I don't mean to undercut mom but I love Monica's dad so much.

[447] No, well, mom and dad both listen to some of the same.

[448] Mom loved Neil Diamond, period.

[449] Mm, yeah.

[450] That come New America.

[451] All day long.

[452] My mom would put on Fleetwood Mac and that place would be turned upside down.

[453] Dad brought a lot of George straight to the table.

[454] Yeah, a lot of country.

[455] We barely responded to that.

[456] We were all Zeppelin.

[457] We were off.

[458] Yeah.

[459] You know, all Hendrick, Zeppelin, Pete Floyd.

[460] You know, and then as soon as we could, we were aware of it, Faith No More.

[461] And then, you know, as soon as we were aware of it, SoundGuard.

[462] I mean, I just copied Mike Patton.

[463] That's all I did.

[464] When I saw Mike Patton for the first time as a kid, I was like, I'm going to be him.

[465] I'm just going to be him.

[466] In a lot of ways, he's still the one in a way.

[467] Like, artistically, he's still.

[468] Really?

[469] Yeah, he's still pretty much one of the most creative.

[470] Certainly one of the most creative, certainly one of the greatest singers on the planet, one of the most exciting inventive.

[471] This is the Faith No More singer?

[472] Faith No More.

[473] Okay.

[474] Wow.

[475] I don't know that I've ever heard someone Harold Faith No More to that level.

[476] That's great.

[477] If you go on this journey, a Mike Patton journey, you will, you're just going to be like, wait a second.

[478] I'm excited.

[479] There is literally no one else to compare him to.

[480] No kidding.

[481] He's his own thing.

[482] Not one single vocalist could be compared to him.

[483] Wow.

[484] And I trust you guys.

[485] So I'm very excited about this.

[486] And just know this.

[487] If you just go on the adventure, if you do it randomly, there is no telling what you'll hear first.

[488] And what you hear first, you might be like, how could, it might just be like nothing but screaming.

[489] Or it might be not like.

[490] It might be in all Italian.

[491] The man did an entire crooner, like, in all Italian.

[492] He did this record with the DJ The Automator, lovage songs to make love to your old lady by that's like sort of electronic, but like really sensual.

[493] And then there's like full on like metal.

[494] Like he's all over the place, but it's never unfocused.

[495] You know, so often you'll hear filmmakers admit to this.

[496] You'll hear all kinds of people admit to this, that you're trying to do one thing.

[497] You're actually trying to copy something.

[498] I've tried to make movies that were other movies And then just It cannot help but go through my filter And become this new thing Even if I'm trying to literally copy something That's kind of the beauty of - That's exactly what we did So who were you guys trying When you kind of got back together It was just going to be you two Was there anyone in particular?

[499] Yeah, Ramblin Jack Elliot's songs And he was copying Woody Guthrie But Ramblin Jack's delivery Was a little cowboy or like cowboy -esque And there's really just one record one record that we were really honed in on.

[500] We knew the whole record, basically.

[501] Yeah, and it's, what was, it's, a Ramlin, Jack Elliott, and Daryl Adams.

[502] Daryl Adams.

[503] And you get the feeling from this record that it was something that they made almost just sort of like, it was in two days, I think.

[504] Yeah, like a two -day record.

[505] It's like one of these records that got made in whatever, the 60s, the 70s, that wasn't like a record like we make now where we go out and, you know, focus for months on in or whatever.

[506] It was like a two -day sitting in a room like this, put up a couple mics, play the songs.

[507] And then Scott and I basically based our whole beginning.

[508] 65 to 70 % of our show was.

[509] that record.

[510] Oh, wow.

[511] And in my mind, the one thing I would always add to this is that was the bulk of the sort of the character of what we were trying to do, but in playing the kick and the hat, I always had that Zeppelin song in my mind.

[512] It's like...

[513] I can't remember, it's a...

[514] Ah, where you're smiling at me, that's the way it should be, like a leaf is to a tree, so fine.

[515] TAMBO!

[516] TAMBO!

[517] Because that sound...

[518] Wait, sorry, I was so lost with this.

[519] Yeah, that's...

[520] So good.

[521] Yes, but that back and forth, um -t -mm -t immediately get you.

[522] And like we saw, when we started playing, like if we do that, mm -t -t -mm -t, immediately people are like into it.

[523] That still happens now.

[524] All roads lead back to bottom.

[525] They tend to.

[526] God, damn.

[527] They really do.

[528] You see the documentary where they showed them recording Led Zeppelin 2 in that mansion.

[529] All the drum tracks from that are in the foyer.

[530] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[531] When the levee breaks and everything, these mics are like 30 feet above him.

[532] Oh, gives me chills thinking about it.

[533] Nuts, nuts.

[534] I have a question before we get too far away.

[535] from it the original band the heartbreak and all of that and bob is in your band now now so do you think it's hard for those people to be with brothers basically to be working and close to and in this relationship familial relationship in a lot of ways with brothers what a great question because they know that they will not reach a bomb they'll never be your brother yeah i think bob's yeah bob certainly that's hard right we know bob very well he is our brother yeah but he can always just be very candid with me about like you know and he doesn't he kind of knows he just sort of he navigates it in a in a very he's like in a band with um i don't know yeah i think over the years as it's become more established it's become more of a like an advantage for them too like as it got sussed out that like this is the nucleus and you can trust us you know it's like i think it would be harder if they didn't really know our intentions but we try to lead by example we try to show them everyone i mean like bob is he couldn't be closer but like among the three of us even we we try to well joe too is a staple right he is we love joe yeah for bob brought joe in oh he did so joe plays cello yeah and joe's been with us now for 12 13 years as fun as you all are to watch on stage he can distract me i can get pulled off you guys when he starts fucking going oh it's great standing standing he can't even sit down he has he struggles now seated playing the cello because he's so used to standing with it and dancing with it it's pretty wild it's it looks like a mad genius you see the pattern here with bob bob is the one that was like guys bob came down from jersey to the south and when he met us and started playing with us like let's go on tour and then 2007 he's like hey i got this guy that plays cello and i played this other band let's get this guy bob's instigated bob's got a he's had a very interesting life he's the deep stories and well that's it that's got sort of making a good point there they're like Bob, you know, he comes out of nowhere, he books the whole first tour.

[536] By himself.

[537] There's many more examples after that, but then he brings Joe in, Joe on his own, shapes his life to be in this thing, you know?

[538] Leaves IBM, he leaves IBM, you know, like the thing about us being the nucleus to decry or to worry over will never be as close as Scott and Seth are, everyone that's in the outfit have proven time and again their dedication, and not only their dedication, but their worth and how much more they have lifted it because of their involvement yeah so they're just complicated relationships right though because like it's i mean we have a similar situation with me and christin and dax where and my sister yeah but but carly's family yeah well that's true yeah so it's like we're all this team but there are moments where it's like oh but they're like a team and i'll never be in that team even though it's 99 % of the time it's like all happy and good sometimes it's like Oh, boy, but I'm never going to be that.

[539] Well, we're the wrong ones to ask.

[540] You're right.

[541] We need to get Bob in here.

[542] In this scenario.

[543] You're right.

[544] My feeling is, I hope not.

[545] Yeah, yeah.

[546] And I feel like we're vocal about, and like, you know, that's not just lip service.

[547] We believe that we're all one thing.

[548] And even in our group, like, I hope that people that come to see us and that, you know, people that were in the room last night, I hope that they don't feel like they're too far away from us because we're making, we're making this thing together.

[549] It's a real thing.

[550] It's not just a one of them.

[551] And I've had this super privilege of, like, watching you guys backstage, and there's definitely zero hierarchy that I've witnessed.

[552] Everyone's just kind of...

[553] Well, imagine if there were, like, teams, and it tends to happen, which is a problem.

[554] But imagine if there's teams in a marriage.

[555] Right.

[556] You know, and it happens.

[557] On our worst moments, we're like, well, I got to have this, and it's my.

[558] Well, it's tempting to do it with your kids.

[559] To do it with your kids.

[560] I have to police myself, because I'll be like, who, I think mom's bad shit crazy on this one.

[561] I'm tempted to check in with Lincoln and go, like, are we seeing this?

[562] It's team dad.

[563] And I got to stop myself because I'm like, I don't want to do that.

[564] But fuck, I'm tempted to.

[565] No doubt.

[566] So the reflective, that should reflect people.

[567] Like we do it with, I mean, when you get bigger into nations and towns and a marriage should reflect what our relationship with the planet, a brotherhood, that tribalism isn't good.

[568] No, no, no. And family, when that becomes a real thing within an organization, that ain't good.

[569] Right.

[570] It's not do anybody any.

[571] I'll protect my brother until the end.

[572] There's a real.

[573] There's a fine line where that turns into a bad place and a really negative place.

[574] So it's tricky.

[575] You know one thing, I noticed on the album it used to say one thing and then it is evolved when I've seen it in concert where now you change the lyrics.

[576] The murder in the city?

[577] Yeah.

[578] So I always joke about, well, this is Joe, here we go, again with this song about tribalism.

[579] Uh -huh.

[580] Because it is so like...

[581] Well, it is funny because it did make me think of it immediately.

[582] That's what I'm thinking about.

[583] And what's the lyric?

[584] I'm sure my boys know I love them, make sure my girls know the same yeah and it used to be my sister or my brother and my brother because at that time you wrote that song that was your just about the family that was your family right yeah and then it evolved i think it's really sweet that you like took on and i talk to my therapist about this i was like you know what this is just traveling you know it's this is i don't want to do this song anymore and she of course was when this was just a thing i was going through and she was like i don't think this is that big a deal it's a good it's a good song for people just do it let me know it's Let me just say this.

[585] It's a damn good stuff.

[586] Yeah, it's like, do it.

[587] All of our songs, Scott at one point in those, been like, I don't want to play this song.

[588] And then the next day I'm like, this is the best song with her.

[589] We got to play that.

[590] We got to open the show with this song.

[591] I thought we weren't going to play a song ever again.

[592] That's thoughtful, though.

[593] That's good.

[594] But it does make me think of the one lyric that, and I think I text you.

[595] Is it annoying when I like, I'll kind of, I'll circle onto some lyric of yours and then I'll reach out to you and go like, oh, man, this fucking, it's getting me in a new way.

[596] I get giddy every time you text me. Okay, good.

[597] I do.

[598] I'm always so excited.

[599] There's the lyric, family, we share a name.

[600] How's that one?

[601] Oh, fuck.

[602] Same song.

[603] Same song, yeah, but it says...

[604] Always remember there's nothing worth sharing like the love that let us share our name.

[605] Oh.

[606] Beautiful.

[607] Oh, my God.

[608] Always remember there's nothing worth sharing.

[609] I have to say, because we're on this topic, whenever I'm deciding to deliver that, I think, okay, I'm talking about the name, human.

[610] I always do that to myself, because I'm like, this is so back to it.

[611] But I, okay, so yes, yes.

[612] But I am a sucker for my family.

[613] No, I'm sorry.

[614] I'm sorry.

[615] If only five people are going to live on my property and there's 20 people, I'm sorry.

[616] I know which five are.

[617] I believe, though, it's a roundabout way of saying everyone.

[618] Like, there's something about it.

[619] I don't think it crosses a lot of folks' minds that it would be exclusive rather than inclusive.

[620] Like, it seems very inclusive to me. And the angle I'm always coming at it from when I hear the lyric is thinking, I hope that's helpful for someone who was trying to navigate having love and forgiveness for someone that shares their name.

[621] You know what I mean?

[622] Like, hopefully that's some fuel for that.

[623] I think the message weirdly in it, though, isn't so much tribalism is because we share a name, my brother and I have opposite political views, but we're so different.

[624] My brother and my sister and I are.

[625] We're so different.

[626] And yet I'm going to be there for them to the end of time because we have this name in common.

[627] And that really is the roadmap.

[628] It's like when you think about that you're left and someone's right or you're southern and I'm northern, all that shit, it's like you go in big deal.

[629] That's my brother.

[630] Think about the Civil War.

[631] Yes.

[632] I just thought about it.

[633] I was just thinking about Seth being in New York or something.

[634] I was like, what if?

[635] Can't imagine what was going on?

[636] Brothers were literally on other sides.

[637] Literally.

[638] Oh, my God.

[639] It's so painful.

[640] Or even as I've gotten more into that history, these generals that were all at West Point together, who were all working for the.

[641] the U .S. umbrella.

[642] People with 30 -year friendships were all of a sudden fighting each other.

[643] It's bongers.

[644] It's bonkers, man. It's impossible now to wrap our heads around what it felt like to be there.

[645] Okay, now let's talk about this.

[646] So really, your pathway to success was just this dedication to touring.

[647] It very quickly became like, oh, this is the livelihood.

[648] Which, weirdly, you're a little bit ahead of the curve because obviously the music industry in general has just shifted to now your money's coming from performing generally, your album selling, you know, whatever.

[649] No one, yeah, no one buys us.

[650] You give it away on YouTube so people come see your show.

[651] Yeah, it was the model now.

[652] But you guys were a little ahead of that curve.

[653] Just a little, yeah.

[654] Yeah.

[655] Totally luck.

[656] But 2007 is your first time you guys go on TV and you play on Conan, right?

[657] I had a gray cardigan with a black button, I'm sure.

[658] He remembers his outfits like an encyclopedia.

[659] Listen to me. Do you have super memory?

[660] For that.

[661] I don't know.

[662] I just remember.

[663] Your style is so good.

[664] Oh, God.

[665] Fuck you.

[666] You are.

[667] right at the bullseye of him was that an accident or is he is the same thing about you man oh no no no no because i'm like he's got carhart overall's on what am i wearing i'm wearing ragging bone what it i gotta get my car heart overalls on may at last i was so preoccupied by a lot of things one of them being i'm like levi should have paid for this levi i never seen a guy look better in some fucking levies i watched that and i even think i said to chris i'm like i need to go to a i don't need to a i don't even know where a Levi store is, but I need to go buy everything there.

[668] I remember you texting me about this as soon as you watched the film.

[669] You were so candid, I love this, man. Oh, I was furious, man. I remember.

[670] You're like, where'd you guys get your jeans?

[671] I was like, uh, these are just Levi's.

[672] Are you there was Sears and Roebuck?

[673] J .C. Penny?

[674] Sure you can find these.

[675] Yeah.

[676] Oh, yeah, really was bowled over by the style.

[677] I doubt you guys have seen this, but Jason Mamoa did do some partnership video with Carhart.

[678] And it's just him.

[679] hanging man he's got a skateboard ramp in his backyard he's like fucking grill and try tip he's just living as moa would right i'm like i got to be head to toe and car heart after seeing this it worked branded content got me there you go but you go on tv was it a nerve -racking is there some strength and always having one another the way that night went because we were playing in philly that night so we were going to drive to new york play the show jump back in the RV van van back to Philly to play the show so it was like this reconnaissance mission it's like here we go we're gonna get to Cohn and we're gonna do it then it's everything off straight to play a CD release show for emotionalism yeah the next night wow so it was like yeah could you do like bunker down and go like all right we're doing it you know it's like a movie scene where you're like yeah you know driving through all those roads and just getting to the gig and then back you know everything could could fail but you get there writing time to go on stage and and you're exhausted and and then those magical things happen like I was talking about.

[680] Like, that was happening nightly because we were driving eight hours a day and then playing a show and then driving six hours.

[681] You know, so in those moments, we did have some knockdown arguments.

[682] A lot of them were about, they were the process of the younger brother breaking from the older brother and saying, hey, this is what I'm going to do.

[683] And that was good.

[684] That was really good.

[685] Yeah.

[686] It was a good reminder every once in a while to get that still.

[687] But we also were forced to bunker down.

[688] Yeah.

[689] And our dad had said, you're going to be your best friends.

[690] You're going to be your look after each other better than anybody else would.

[691] Don't forget that, you know, when you're doing this.

[692] So that was good advice for sure.

[693] Yeah.

[694] Yeah, because my brother, I can remember almost the exact moment.

[695] I made a best friend who's still my best friend, Aaron Weekly, at like 11, 12.

[696] And it was, I think, the first time it occurred to my brother, like, oh, he's got a new, yeah, he ain't trying to be me anymore.

[697] You're younger or older?

[698] I'm five years younger.

[699] Yeah.

[700] And I was just annoying, but I do think he was like, wait a minute.

[701] though but you should i still want this you know it was it was definitely a very clear moment where that prodigal son story is so good forever like the elder brother in anybody the self -righteousness well you have a slave you're born with you get a slave you're four years old and all of a sudden you got a goddamn slave and they'll do anything you want them to do no one's integrity is good enough that they're going to not abuse that a little bit oh yeah Bonnie and i both did with Seth like we got him to dress up you know did the whole thing there's well i was even saying i was wasn't even allowed to like Michael Jackson or the Beatles because my brother's like, no, we like the stones and we like Prants.

[702] So that's out.

[703] But I wasn't even free to make that decision.

[704] It was not allowed.

[705] It's tough.

[706] It's tough.

[707] That's a tough.

[708] That's a tough thing depriving a kid of the Beatles is it's tough.

[709] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[710] When you start doing like talk shows and stuff it's just a really bizarre transition right from kind of anonymity to and or am i worth it like especially early yeah early when you know that half the crowd and conan doesn't know you they're just there and you're like i got to go in here and sort of earn this uh -huh or not sort i really do i have to own this and earn it that's tricky yeah we were coming with a lot of just infused confidence like we had a lot of confidence already just like that's where my mind is going just a minute we were like we're good we know we're good and we're gonna we just got to get an opportunity i can't remember exactly how it felt at the time it definitely felt like a big deal i'm thankful to say that now it is for lack of a better word commonplace enough that like i don't call all my friends when we get booked on jimmy vallon or whatever like i don't call everybody but i remember when we got conan i mean i called jeremy davis one of our difference like i called it i'm like it's happening we're doing it you know like of course i remember the lead -up it was a great victory you know and that's really the most of what i remember about i do remember being a little bit nervous but again as the younger brother i did set up a thing for myself between my own confidence about music and thinking we ought to be known and and i believe that in nemo as well and i believed it before we had some of the goods that would you know merit that that would merit that yeah and you know you could even make the argument now depending where your opinions lie but like we did not have the tools i think we both felt like that we should be on the path to be really well -known.

[711] Yeah.

[712] So I've had like precious few times that I have been nervous at all going on stage because you're with your brother.

[713] Because I'm with my brother.

[714] And also by the time Conan happened, we played hundreds and hundreds of shows.

[715] You know, we had this great benefit, unwanted benefit.

[716] We wanted to be on TV straight away, but we had to play and play and play and play before anyone was watching.

[717] We had to make a ton of mistakes but a lot of them were in empty rooms.

[718] It didn't matter, which is really beautiful.

[719] I've only had one occasion, really since the Avid Brothers really got going where I did like a tour in situation without Scott.

[720] This is right when your son was born, right?

[721] Yeah, just before.

[722] So me and Jessica Blee -Mayfield we made this Elliot Smith's cover record.

[723] I own the album, it's beautiful.

[724] Thank you for saying so.

[725] But we did 13 shows.

[726] And in a way, it was like invigorating and terrifying.

[727] Yeah, yeah.

[728] Because it's me and her and Paul DeFiglia and a stand -up bass player and like stepping out there for the first time, I forgot all the lyrics.

[729] Wow.

[730] Like we played in Charlotte.

[731] The first night of the tour was Charlotte.

[732] Oh, wow.

[733] And I was so nervous.

[734] I forgot the lyrics.

[735] Did you just own it?

[736] Did you say to the crowd?

[737] No, no, it was so unfamiliar to me that I went through the chords, like, I don't know, like the chord progression like six or eight times.

[738] And they're just waiting for you.

[739] And they're just waiting.

[740] And they're just waiting.

[741] And I'm like, I've forgotten it.

[742] I'm embarrassed.

[743] I'm also like in my mind going, you've forgotten it.

[744] You're embarrassed.

[745] Like all these things are just flood through my mind.

[746] And then I don't know what happened.

[747] I think maybe Jessica, like she started singing it or it came into me or whatever.

[748] We did the song.

[749] And then afterward, I felt like a statue.

[750] And we hadn't performed together, just me and her yet.

[751] Like as soon as the song's over, I just feel like, I mean, my skin is crawling.

[752] And she was, like, said something that was like exemplified that she's a pro.

[753] She's got no problem.

[754] It's all good.

[755] And then I immediately, you know, I was breathing again.

[756] But she was like, we're so glad you all are here.

[757] Thank you for coming.

[758] And then, like, suddenly I was calmed down.

[759] And I was like, okay, maybe we can do this.

[760] But, like, that moment was a massive reminder of how much I take for granted, like for nearly 20 years.

[761] I'm not nervous at all, man. Like me and Scott, you know, whatever.

[762] We're good.

[763] Like, you know, whatever.

[764] throw me in front of the Super Bowl, whatever.

[765] Like, it's just, it's me and Scott.

[766] We can match anything.

[767] There's nothing that can stop us.

[768] I really, like, there's something way down deep in me that really believes that.

[769] Yeah.

[770] Wow, that's so interesting.

[771] Isn't it great in retrospect to get humbled sometimes like that?

[772] Yes.

[773] Because it truly makes you cherish the things that click can go well.

[774] It really is.

[775] Because if you just have this kind of blessed trajectory where you don't experience, it's hard to really understand how precarious the thing you guys have is.

[776] No question.

[777] No question.

[778] and how fragile in some ways, you know, and just how much of a kind of a jerk I am for taking for granted at times, you know, being careful to not let that completely bury me, but a good reminder is good.

[779] Yeah, you know.

[780] You have to be ambitious.

[781] People who aren't ambitious don't sit down and write 10 songs for an album.

[782] That's just the fact.

[783] You've got to start with ambition, right?

[784] Yeah.

[785] And then it becomes this really delicate act of throttling that ambition and checking yourself with the ambition.

[786] So I wonder, you know, did you at all get any of those moments get gobbled up with great we're on conan now so we'll probably do this and then it's that you know is don't you think just being ambitious runs that risk of everything's a step towards something i don't recall thinking about anything beyond that i recall thinking okay anything beyond this would be same icing on the cake uh -huh to me we have done it yeah a lot of our people that we looked up to the ceiling i get the ceiling it's so silly the ceiling wasn't right looked around so when we were selling 500 600 tickets in a club yeah we had seen our heroes we saw mr bungal which was one of mike patten's projects we saw him pack it out we saw uh dinosaur junior dinosaur junior uh sunny day real estate oh i loved sunny day real so we would see these bands and we would just freak out so now we're in those same places we'd seen the bands packing these out so we're kind of like that's it we're here right we're here and we could see a way financially that we could do this yeah now once you sit there for a second you go wait uh -huh we could take another step yeah we got a little more personnel we could make the stage more like this or whatever and we have literally done that for 19 years now right it has grown every year it's so incredible that's real that's what's very tender and specific to this it didn't grow in five years it's grown every year for 19 years and i'll say this business wise scott has been brilliant in a way that no one or Caesar talks about, but Scott's always had a really good hand on the pulse in terms of we need to spend this money to get this person.

[787] And right now, look, on paper, it looks like we'll have less money to work with, which we will.

[788] But adding this person is going to make the show this much better to where we're going to get this much return.

[789] It's almost believing enough in yourself to invest in yourself.

[790] Exactly.

[791] And that's kind of hard to do.

[792] It is, but Scott sort of introduced that mentality early.

[793] I got on board pretty quickly like, oh yeah, let's get a drummer.

[794] If we get a drummer, oh man, now.

[795] we're playing at festivals and there's 10 ,000 people in front of us, you know, how do we grow into this?

[796] It's like, God, I don't know if we can afford to do this.

[797] It's like, we can't afford not to do it, we got to do it, you know?

[798] A couple years ago, we agreed to do it, and this is a little unrelated, but we agreed to do a July 4th show in Milwaukee for 22 ,000 Cedar.

[799] Oh, my God.

[800] And we signed on to it pretty late.

[801] They said, we really need somebody.

[802] We lost our act, and they gave us a big check for it.

[803] And it was Brandi Carlisle and us.

[804] As we're going in, we're thinking, okay, You know, Brandi Carlisle, we'll be able to draw all good.

[805] We're going to back them in, man. You know, we're saving these people, you know.

[806] We're going to bring them a show.

[807] 2400 people.

[808] Oh, wow.

[809] On July 4th.

[810] In a 22 ,000.

[811] One in ten seats was occupied.

[812] Oh, God.

[813] And it was like, we are playing for the people that are here, not the people that are not.

[814] Yeah.

[815] So, and the show was, I don't remember it being bad.

[816] It was fine.

[817] Wouldn't it have been great, though?

[818] Just like you said, one in ten seats.

[819] wouldn't have been great if they were like evenly distributed one in 10 seats all of y 'all came by yourself they were so polite no I moved up well I didn't pay for that seat so I'm not gonna sit there oh yeah an old time country band can't be this big that's right oh yeah that's right I uh the thing I was thinking about earlier when like talking about like those early days and what it means to get on Conan or whatever Scott and I've been talking about this a lot recently you have to get to some level of comfort with campaigning for yourself right which is nauseating yeah it's nauseating it's it's it's maybe a little less nauseating when you're young and we're like we're talking about this like we sort of in a kind of a dumb haphazard way dumb is a bit of a negative spin but like we we sort of accidentally accepted the role of touring musician to support what we were going to do we didn't know we didn't have the knowledge early to say hey look we got a tour that's the only way you know in 10 years it's going to be streaming and no one's going to care about buying records anyway we got a tour so like we didn't know that but we just sort of accidentally found our way into that now i'm very thankful for that because at that time we got comfortable comfortable enough campaigning for ourselves right and now we're less comfortable doing that oh you're like in a way like we see it as a part of the like it's a necessity it's a part of the job but personally it has you know it gets harder as you get older and you realize how small you are and you you know you have you know friends die and family die and you know cancer and divorce and all this stuff you you are humbled by life and it gets a little harder to believe you should be saying hey look at me look at me look at me look at me you know like what we're doing is in a way saying that look at us look what we're going to offer you but man it's hard to do that sometimes i think we believe that everybody's got that in them it's not fostered for everybody not everybody's we're all so privileged that our folks loved us and said you are a sweet whatever child of this planet yeah child of god You are, you are, and go be that.

[820] And that makes you the rock star and the everybody is allowed that.

[821] It's there.

[822] It's within them.

[823] So I think that for us to go out, it doubles over on self to where you, it's actually much easier because we can go and spread that message.

[824] That's the flip side of the point.

[825] That's true.

[826] Check it out.

[827] Yeah, if we're seeing ourselves as the beloved, we are knowing that we are a precious thing, then it's okay.

[828] But it's just, it's coming from such a different place than the campaigning that would have happened as a 20 -year -old.

[829] Right.

[830] Totally.

[831] 20 -year -old, you're going.

[832] What am I?

[833] You maybe are really believing your own BS, you know?

[834] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[835] I want to tell a quick story.

[836] Kristen and I were down in Atlanta, I think.

[837] Yeah, Atlanta.

[838] She was doing a movie with Melissa McCarthy.

[839] And they happen to say, like, oh, what are you guys doing tonight?

[840] And we're like, oh, our friends are in town.

[841] We're going to go see their band.

[842] And they're like, who?

[843] The A -Bitt brothers?

[844] And we're like, yeah.

[845] And Melissa McCartner's saying, you guys know them?

[846] And we're like, yes.

[847] Would you like to come with us?

[848] And remember, we knocked on your tour bus.

[849] And she didn't know.

[850] Yes, we surprised them with bringing them to your tour bus.

[851] Yeah, I remember that she was not aware.

[852] Like, when she was getting on the bus, she did not know that she was getting on our bus.

[853] Right.

[854] And then she had this look on her face that you just couldn't believe, you know.

[855] Because for us, it's like, this is Melissa McCarthy.

[856] How can you do?

[857] Like, how, yeah, it was a two -way mirror of like, wait, why are you here?

[858] Why are you here?

[859] Yeah, yeah.

[860] I love you.

[861] I love you.

[862] Yeah.

[863] You guys do this thing where Melissa McCarthy would want to come on your bus and just be giddy to be around you.

[864] That's a very fun special part of this, isn't it?

[865] It really is.

[866] It really is.

[867] We've never been more aware that there is no one person that has more or less value than any other.

[868] The excitement about having her on there, one is that it's so genuine.

[869] Her love for the music is so genuine.

[870] Oh, yeah.

[871] You know, and there is like a built -in mutual respect.

[872] Yeah, to have the opportunity to thank her for giving me joy, for giving all of us joy.

[873] Like the bad ego side is like, oh, getting approval for someone higher status than you.

[874] But the purer one, which is nice, is like, oh, someone I really respect and like actually digs the thing I'm putting out into the world.

[875] Right, well, yeah.

[876] And we all know, like, the status thing will evaporate quite quickly when you meet a person and they don't measure up in their character.

[877] They rarely do.

[878] But, I mean, like, the full other side where you're like, I really love you, and then you realize that they are, through whatever struggle or whatever they're not receptive or they're just kind of a jerk.

[879] Sure, sure.

[880] That's a really tough thing when that happens, so it's nice.

[881] Well, I even cut a lot of famous people slot because I do think everyone's promised the same thing and everyone gets here and goes, oh, wow, I didn't look in the mirror and love who I saw.

[882] I was convinced I would.

[883] And now what?

[884] Now what the fuck do I aim at?

[885] Yeah, I feel for the insecurities that sometimes come off as ego.

[886] Yeah.

[887] And then you hear someone says, well, they're a dick because they did this or that.

[888] And I'm like, maybe.

[889] And what they did is dickish, but like, but where it's coming from is probably a very, very different place.

[890] Oh, I try to tell myself all the time, Like when the guy who, you know, cuts me up in a fucking truck that's got a nine -inch lift and 44 -ish tires and flips me the bird as he goes, I immediately want to go like, that guy's a piece of shit.

[891] And then I'll think to myself, oh, God, that guy wants love just like I do.

[892] And he just chose a really a way that I wouldn't be choosing to go after that.

[893] And let's be honest, like you like that lift.

[894] I do like that.

[895] You're like, you're like, God, that is me. That's a lot higher than I, then Kristen would allow me to get on that.

[896] Yeah, there's jealousy embedded in that.

[897] If it's got King bypass shocks, yeah, I'm a little jealous.

[898] Those are probably five grand a corner.

[899] It opens up.

[900] You're like, oh.

[901] You're like, screw that guy.

[902] Okay, so that's the fun thing.

[903] And then the other really fun thing that I think is, must be a very special place to get to, is getting to work with Rick, Rubin.

[904] How did that quickly, in a nutshell, come about?

[905] Yeah, Rick reached out to us because the record emotionalism, I think, it made enough noise.

[906] He loved it.

[907] And he came to us not saying, I want to.

[908] I want to produce your record.

[909] He came to us saying, I just want to tell you, I think what you're making is rad, and that whether we work together or not, that'd be cool, but I just want you to know that I think it's really special.

[910] It was a very pure, clear invitation.

[911] You want to come to the house?

[912] We came to the house, and he just said, I really like what you're doing.

[913] And we probably talked, I mean, I know we talked more than he did because he asked us what was going to happen next or what we thought was going to happen next.

[914] And I remember you asking him what he thought about emotionalism.

[915] And I remember him saying, And, you know, all the versions of the songs, I'm not sure that they're the best version of the songs, you know, which was like, for me, I was like, whoa.

[916] Slow your roll, really.

[917] Slow down there.

[918] It's been released.

[919] Yeah, it's over.

[920] We put this record out in theater.

[921] It's a little late for that note.

[922] It is actually the best.

[923] It was the best we have.

[924] Now, looking back, I see why that was such a valid comment.

[925] And he was saying it without emotion.

[926] He wasn't saying it, you know, like he was just saying what he thought, which was coming from where he was from, it totally makes sense to me now.

[927] What was the ingredient he thought that you guys needed to amplify or what lever did he want you to turn?

[928] Slow down.

[929] I think so.

[930] I think we needed space because we were like, we took 13 days to make emotional.

[931] 11 days.

[932] 11 days.

[933] 11 days for all of it.

[934] Recording, mixing, mastering 11 days.

[935] Wow.

[936] Because we didn't have time to get off the road.

[937] And we didn't have the money.

[938] We didn't have the budget going, yeah.

[939] So I think for him, he was thinking, hey, what if we record in Malibu?

[940] Low it down, no deadline, no budget, let's...

[941] And he could hear in that recording that we didn't take the time to find the groove.

[942] He knew it.

[943] You know, he could feel that...

[944] And that's in like, you know, when we worked on I and Love and You, it was pretty clear the importance to him finding the groove was.

[945] And if that means playing, you know, the intro to 10 man for two hours, just doom -dum -bye, da -dum -boom -bye.

[946] If that means playing that for, like literally two hours to find it and for all of us to become one, then that's what we're going to do.

[947] And it'll be like a meditation in a way, you know.

[948] Lincoln knows all the words of that song.

[949] Yeah, there you go.

[950] And that was at a time, Rick was, it was that moment for us where we were courting several major labels.

[951] None of them made sense because none of them had Rick, except Sony and Columbia.

[952] Uh -huh.

[953] Rick made sense to us because we were like, we were doing it on our own.

[954] We're making it happen business -wise.

[955] And we were already playing in some arenas by ourselves.

[956] We were, without any.

[957] why do we need and we were nine years in but rick we were like yes we do want this he's worth crossing the yeah we'll cross the yeah cross the line yeah yeah and that place where you invited us to when we went sangra la man that's a pretty special that's some hollowed ground there no doubt super special so yeah the end the band 1970 whatever there's like an inscription in the concrete there and 76 yeah but you can yeah you can really feel the power and it really just immediately creates a space for you to get to the bare bones of what you're trying to make.

[958] Right.

[959] Which is really needed, you know.

[960] Well, in the movie, may it last, you guys record what is my favorite song off that album?

[961] No hard feelings.

[962] Did that happen in a few?

[963] Or was that...

[964] We did three takes, played it live.

[965] Right.

[966] Yeah.

[967] Is there a heightened sense of accomplishment when something like that happens?

[968] Like when the magic intervenes or something?

[969] Yes.

[970] Yeah.

[971] I remember the next day, I think it was the next day, me and Jennifer running, somewhere in West Hollywood were running together, exercise, and we're just running a beautiful day, and I just remember thinking, like, not to compare, because you can't, but, like, I remember thinking, like, maybe it was something like when Whitney Houston did, I will always love you.

[972] Yeah, yeah, just that magic.

[973] Like, I remember thinking, like, I've always wondered, like, what would it have been like to be in the room when she did that, you know?

[974] Yeah.

[975] And, like, this song, it's not really comparable in a lot of ways but like the magic of it all happening right then in this one moment that felt incredible and it made me think about that when he Houston recording and just how like the magic is in the room you know you can just feel it felt so good yeah boy I'm very ambious of that to like be a part of that little capsule of creativity and expression you don't you don't never know when it's gonna when it's going to strike you know I think like like shang rela is like a place where like everything is put in place just in case that moment can happen right you know Yeah.

[976] That's amazing.

[977] Now, you both have boys, and you guys, I feel like, are an incredibly good model for something that I am always straddling, which is you guys are both masculine in a very southern, soft -spoken, but strong, yet crazy -evolved, new version of masculinity.

[978] I really think you guys could be the kind of roadmap.

[979] I'm still caught in a lot of the caveman side of it.

[980] It's really true, yeah.

[981] That's very nice.

[982] But I look at you guys and I really do think there's this special quality you have that I would say you guys are both very masculine and yet you guys are both.

[983] Very feminine.

[984] Very feminine.

[985] No, very, you know, just not in the toxic way.

[986] So I just wonder, I'm just curious, this has nothing to do with music.

[987] I've been so grateful that I have two girls because I don't want to deal with, you should punch that guy in the nose if he's picking on you.

[988] I don't want to deal with any of that.

[989] I think I don't have to deal with him.

[990] but you know just like the moment between my dad a fist fight as well well i think it's likely that delta will definitely get a scrape up a scrape up or two but uh raising boys like do you think about it do you think about what you're hanging on what traditional masculinity that you want to pass on and then other ones we should kick to the curb i think masculinity is important because feminism is so important now that it's important not to forget the the masculinity uh male whatever, write a passage that we need, I don't know that it's as clear as it used to be.

[991] Yeah, yeah.

[992] And I think that I'll have to, for my family, Seth, anybody that has a boy, will have to navigate that and maybe even constructed, you know, in a most sincere way, it can only be constructed so far, but it has to be...

[993] It can't be built on a lot.

[994] No, it has to be sincere.

[995] Yeah.

[996] I don't know how that's going to be, but I think there should be a clear.

[997] Maybe it's a time when they come home at a certain age.

[998] I'm thinking, like, around 12 to 14, they're working for about an hour on the farm.

[999] You know, every afternoon or something, like, I don't know what it is.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] It seems like so many cultures have got this moment for a young man where before they were a boy, and now they're a man. And now they're a man. Yeah.

[1002] And for us, I don't know, you might can relate.

[1003] For me, I just recently got through the threshold of, okay, I'm a man. Yes.

[1004] And the big man is in the driver's seat.

[1005] and the little man is in the passenger seat still there and the tender little guys you know right and that's all the therapy but it's the threshold is so so wide so deep and I think it needs to narrow a bit to get these boys into manhood in a sincere way I'm not talking about in a dangerous I'm not talking about I'm not talking about initiation at the right for soccer practice yeah and like for us it was pretty pretty rough in soccer practice but I'm talking about something that's real Yeah.

[1006] I really feel like, and I mean, I'm speaking from the perspective of a father of a four -year -old, you know, so like the specificity, you know, you're bringing in terms of like what might happen, you know, an example of violence, a fist fight or something like that.

[1007] I have not gotten to that yet.

[1008] I have in my mind what I think I'll say or what I think I'll do, and I have in my mind what my dad told me. I remember that crystal clear.

[1009] You know, generally speaking, I tend to feel like it is in my son to rise to his own masculinity, and I feel like it's in any daughter to rise to her own feminine strength.

[1010] I think a lot of it has to be based in etiquette and manners and respect for oneself, respect for the people around them.

[1011] And I feel like sort of the character of masculinity or feminine quality will sort of naturally bloom on its own.

[1012] That being said, like what happened with me is I traded a necklace with a friend in elementary school.

[1013] He had like a little two -finger brass knuckle thing, a little double ring thing.

[1014] I thought it was super cool.

[1015] I had a necklace.

[1016] We're trade for a week we traded for a week at the end of the week he wouldn't give me my necklace back oh so i went home and i'm like 10 years old and like we got in like a little bit of a pushing kind of thing but it didn't escalate past that and i was really hurt by this my was my feelings were really hurt i think i was on the verge of tears but i didn't cry in front of anybody at school i got home and i asked dad i was like what uh yeah i see like that's like no one told me that but like i knew not i'm like you can't cry i'm not you know um but i got home and i just i had to ask dad like what do i And he said, son, tomorrow, as soon as you're not around the teachers, you walk right up to him.

[1017] You say, give me my necklace back right now, or I'm going to punch you in the face.

[1018] And I said, okay.

[1019] And he said, if he doesn't give you that necklace back, punch him as hard as you can, get right in the nose.

[1020] And like, just hearing him say that, even retelling the story now, I can feel a little bit of that, like, tightening up.

[1021] Now you've got two problems on your hands.

[1022] Now you're going to disappoint dad.

[1023] And let me say this.

[1024] Let me say this.

[1025] I don't, I'm not going to sit here and say that that was a mistake to tell me that.

[1026] I feel that I'm not going to say that to my son.

[1027] I don't know that I won't say that when he's 10 or 11, and he tells me about a kid disrespect to him.

[1028] I might say, son, walk up to him, punch him in the face.

[1029] I don't know what I'm going to say.

[1030] Right.

[1031] I feel like I won't.

[1032] We'll see.

[1033] I don't think you will.

[1034] Maybe I won't, but I'm not going to criticize my dad for saying it because what happened is the next day.

[1035] We, you know, I went to school, got on the school bus, got to school, found myself in the bathroom with this friend, and I walked right up to him, and I said, give me my necklace right now.

[1036] And I didn't say anything beyond.

[1037] I said, give me my necklace right now.

[1038] And I had it in me. I was ready.

[1039] I was going to do it because my dad told me I could and I should.

[1040] Right.

[1041] And he took the necklace off and he gave it to me. Oh, good.

[1042] And so that was kind of the best of all worlds because I didn't have to do it.

[1043] I didn't have to, you know, hurt another human and all that.

[1044] Yeah.

[1045] But I was different after that.

[1046] It helped me because I knew that I stood up for myself.

[1047] It wasn't the violence aspect, but dad pushed me into standing up for myself and getting myself amped to a place where I was going to take it to an extreme place to show that I'm worthy of, you told me something, you have to follow it through it.

[1048] You have to honor that.

[1049] Yeah, it was probably in your eyes.

[1050] Yeah, maybe so.

[1051] There was something I was amped up, I'll never forget.

[1052] We were watching, Monica and Chris and I were watching this documentary called The Mask You Live in.

[1053] It's all about masculinity.

[1054] and basically goes, this is the right of passage to be a man. Make a ton of money, fuck a lot of women, drink excessively, and fight.

[1055] And they looked at me after this list came out, and they were like, look at what a cliche you are.

[1056] I'm like, you're right.

[1057] I just, I sprinted towards all those things.

[1058] Like, oh, is this it?

[1059] This is how you be a man?

[1060] Okay, great.

[1061] Check, check.

[1062] And it's so embarrassing.

[1063] And it was just what was, that was the criteria.

[1064] That was the, it's not your fault.

[1065] It's at all of our fault.

[1066] were improbably my fault.

[1067] Well, we talked about this, like there were times where war did it.

[1068] You know, like, it's a clear -cut thing.

[1069] Like, whatever, it's 19 - you go away a boy.

[1070] Yeah, it's 19 -41.

[1071] You're 18, you go, you're not a boy anymore.

[1072] No. You know, and it's not the violence of it, but it's just, it's a trust.

[1073] It's a vote of confidence.

[1074] You are no longer a boy because we are putting the lives of everyone in this world in your hands.

[1075] That is an undeniable right of passage.

[1076] Yeah, I think, like, in the future, a conscription where men are who everyone has to go away for a year, and you do some kind of public work project.

[1077] Make a bunch of money, drink a bunch.

[1078] Get an annihilating to do drugs.

[1079] Yes, super promiscuous.

[1080] Just, yeah.

[1081] And you go do that act of service.

[1082] Right, right.

[1083] That is the line you walk over when you come home and you've made your country better and your community.

[1084] Is there a way to create a template for that?

[1085] I don't know.

[1086] I think that'd be cool.

[1087] Maybe like there's something, you know.

[1088] Yeah, but like a mandatory one.

[1089] Okay, your new album comes out what day?

[1090] October 4th.

[1091] October 4th.

[1092] Yeah.

[1093] And it's called Closer Than Together.

[1094] Closer than Together.

[1095] And what is the theme we're exploring in this one?

[1096] I've listened to several of the songs.

[1097] Love them, of course, as always.

[1098] I bleed David Brothers.

[1099] Was there an overall theme?

[1100] Personal relationship to this world.

[1101] I mean, yeah.

[1102] I mean, what you just said a few moments ago about us all being one.

[1103] I mean, that's really what, you know, that phrase, which I believe is a very profound phrase, this guy came up with the closer than together, that concept.

[1104] of being closer than together i think that's it just speaks to this conversation we we continue to have about we are one we need to think of ourselves as one we don't need to we don't need to tear each other down we need to forgive each other and we need to land on the golden rule you know not that it's a it's not really a place of like we're trying to preach to people but it's just about us all being one well the things that i've liked the most of y 'alls is is when the lesson you're passing on is just taking inventory of your own indiscretions confusions failings you know failings when it's your story I just feel like no one gets defensive and it's like oh yeah this is his story and I can relate to it's an AA thing it's like the power of the message is just I'm not telling you do shit yeah talk about yourself yeah yeah too many people now are saying well they should he shouldn't be this or she shouldn't be that when you don't have really any idea where they are right what I'm saying now you should defend yourself against whatever comes at you that might be how you love that person by defending yourself from them but yeah like we can't go around telling other people how they got to be and we don't know them yeah but we can tell them this is how we have felt it and this is how we've seen it and this is how we live and how we mess up right this is our shit you know yeah because i can connect to all that stuff and yeah i found a lot of the things your own blemishes that you've aired your dirty laundry that's the stuff i connect with the most i'm like oh yeah i can relate to that big time yeah well that's the problem with uh the bigger picture we don't lift up the people admitting we're wrong uh -huh i know i'm weak yeah i'm weak i'm not i don't do the golden rule i'm not good at it instead they say no i'm i did right you did wrong and well yeah the stakes feel like you're going to be excommunicated at all times or run out of your you know everyone's going to look at you some way so right the stakes feel high see dad told me to punch somebody first before they punched you as well uh -huh uh -huh and i did it okay okay good It turned terrible.

[1105] Oh, it did.

[1106] At the end of the fight, the person was saying, I was just kidding.

[1107] Oh, yeah.

[1108] And I'm standing there going, this is me. This is, this is, you know what I'm saying?

[1109] Oh, I got a, I got one that blistered my mind where I punched a kid and it knocked the wind out of him.

[1110] And I don't think he ever had the wind knocked out of him.

[1111] And he was laying on the ground in the parking lot of my school.

[1112] Literally, I was watching someone scared for their life.

[1113] And I was like, oh my God, I'm a monster.

[1114] I don't even, didn't know I had that power.

[1115] Yeah, yeah, yeah, but like your shit, like coming back to you and going, that's kind of a right of passage in another way where you're like, I am a loser, I am, I'm terrible, I do terrible things.

[1116] Yes.

[1117] I'm capable of terrible things.

[1118] I was afraid, and now I made this person even more afraid.

[1119] I was insecure, afraid, mad, hungry, tired.

[1120] So you won, you won, you won the fight.

[1121] The headline is I won, the headline is I won, yeah.

[1122] Dax won a fight.

[1123] The name of this podcast would be Dax.

[1124] want to fight oh goodness well gentlemen i would love it if you would be open to playing a song or two for us yeah all the little introduction uh about it yeah yeah tell me tell me tell me so this is a song i wrote in the hospital room right after Isaac was born oh so it was like after You know, the 40 -hour labor and the emergency C -section, I called you during this because we had the same.

[1125] Y 'all had a similar experience, so we're like, I mean, we're just in the thick of it, and I called you, and it was very helpful.

[1126] You and Kristen both were super, super helpful.

[1127] That makes me happy.

[1128] But, yeah, so then he's born, everybody's safe, everybody's good, everybody's exhausted, and in that rare kind of moment of just, Total exhaustion, there's this flood of words that goes through my head, you know.

[1129] And so I wrote this song out like on my, like in my notes on my phone, like in the darkness of the room while Isaac is like, you know, 24 hours old.

[1130] Yeah, like just, you know, like for the moment, him and Jennifer were both asleep.

[1131] So it's called C -sections and railway trestles.

[1132] Mm -hmm.

[1133] You can tackle down and wrestle Son, give me time, I'm a bona fide messel And mama says no, maybe dad'll say yes -o Did you do wrong, well, go ahead confessal, Dad just a muscle and mama just a vessel.

[1134] You all blue and your mama like a rattle.

[1135] Came out looking like a smurf in a battle.

[1136] Me in the nosebleeds, Mama in the saddle.

[1137] Brave like a Sue, brave going into battle.

[1138] Emotion going like a stampede of cattle.

[1139] Real like rain and coffee in Seattle.

[1140] Anesthesiologist, fiddle and faddle You all blue and your mama like a rattle Oh, life, ba -dam, ba -dum -bom -bom -bom -bom -bom -bubum Bum -Bum -Bum -Bum -Badda -da -da -da -da -dum.

[1141] Oh, life's so clear like a Rivar a mural, Lucifer's teeth introduced the epidural.

[1142] Dr. Jones, do you need a heaven, referral.

[1143] God sent you down to me and my girl.

[1144] She's long and tall and healthy as hell.

[1145] But the plan went to hell when the little fella fell.

[1146] Boy went head first into her pelvis.

[1147] 1956, shaking like Elvis.

[1148] All yesterday born and already thinking.

[1149] Body like a Ford and a mind like a Lincoln.

[1150] Mama and Papa in love and sinking into a brand new situation drinking up coffee like a fish on second and third shift.

[1151] Love every single ever loving minute of this standing ovation for the OR specialist let me get close want to give my son one kiss on his head bum bum ba -dum ba -dum bum bum bum ba -dum ba -dum ba -dum ba -da -da -da -da um bum -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -bam planning for the future health and dental picking up my baby boy easy and gentle soup for the family's sausage Lentil, beans and greens, arugula and fentil.

[1152] Don't never sleep, I'm about to go mental, but nothing so far has been accidental.

[1153] Can't keep my life, so it's got to be a rental.

[1154] Picking up my baby boy, easy and gentle.

[1155] Oh, you're long and strong like a railway trestle.

[1156] Dad just a muscle, and mama just a vessel.

[1157] Meant to call phone over, nuzzle and nestle.

[1158] But dad's just a bear, you can tackle down and wrestle.

[1159] You can have a pop tin or you can have a castle.

[1160] Try to change people, but it's going to be a hassle.

[1161] Don't have to be an astronaut for NASA, but it's always good to get a gown and a tassel.

[1162] Son, have fun with your life as a drama.

[1163] Just one period in all kinds of commas.

[1164] Now you got a onesie, but then you get pajamas.

[1165] You know you got me, and you know you got your mama.

[1166] Nice.

[1167] Jeez.

[1168] Oh, man, I'm such a failure.

[1169] I can't write a song for my children like that.

[1170] Oh, my God.

[1171] No, this, Scott wrote this next one for your children.

[1172] Oh, this okay, good.

[1173] Yeah, no, don't worry.

[1174] Oh, my God.

[1175] You can sing both of these to them.

[1176] Just, yeah.

[1177] Tell them you wrote it.

[1178] It's fine with me. So Scott wrote this one, and I'm just obsessed with it, and I have been ever since I first heard it, and I got so fired up about it that I recorded it like four times before we even got into the studio to record it.

[1179] I wasn't even finished with it, and he took it.

[1180] I was so excited.

[1181] I had to.

[1182] You slip through my hands, like I did through my debts, like a river that passes, rocks that it's on.

[1183] I'm bracing for loneliness.

[1184] I know it's coming when you're gone.

[1185] Happiness comes, and it seems much like money.

[1186] People gather around it, when it's gone, they go running.

[1187] I'm trying to be here Lift up to the now But the past that's to come Pulls me back down You slip through my hands Like I did through my lovers Like a river that passes The bed that it's on Bracing for loneliness I know it's coming These victims of love They're the most hopeless of all Fortunate prisoners In an infinite war They turn on themselves It's pure sabotage Silver spoon babies With Tupperware hearts Silver spoon babies With Tupperware hearts You slip through my Like I did through my mama's like a river that passes the rocks that it's on bracing for loneliness I know it's coming oh boy I'm pregnant I am so pregnant right now oh man you guys are you am I writing that everyone here is pregnant after that I know I am oh you guys I am so grateful that you agreed to sing I love you both I hope I get to watch you until I'm riding my little rascal up my leg stopped working you guys were riding and we're riding our rascals onto the stage I'm into it I adore you guys I love you so much thank you and just by God what a good message you guys are spreading around you're much better folks than me I wish you a ton of luck closer than together October 4th Dax we're honored to be here thank you for having all right so glad I made it happen you too awesome And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1188] The Ava brothers.

[1189] Oh.

[1190] Mm. They are sexual.

[1191] They're sexy.

[1192] It's a whirlwind of emotions, of family, of honesty, of self -critique.

[1193] Yeah.

[1194] They're very evolved.

[1195] They are.

[1196] They almost too evolved for me. Sometimes I feel shitty.

[1197] Okay.

[1198] That's not fair.

[1199] No, when I watch that their documentary, which I love so much, I'm like, have they killed someone, they're so perfect.

[1200] I know.

[1201] You want them to have some bad thing.

[1202] I do.

[1203] I don't think you need people to have the bad thing just because they're doing good.

[1204] Yeah, I guess I, you know what it is.

[1205] What?

[1206] I don't know what it is.

[1207] I do.

[1208] It's because I feel like it's because I'm a piece of shit sometimes.

[1209] You're not.

[1210] You're not.

[1211] Stop saying that.

[1212] But you want.

[1213] went through a lot to get to where you're evolution.

[1214] Mm -hmm.

[1215] So maybe you feel like everyone needs to have something at critical mass like that in order to get there.

[1216] But I don't think that's necessarily true.

[1217] You're absolutely right.

[1218] Some people are just born better people.

[1219] Like Kristen seemingly was just born a better person.

[1220] I had to really have my life in danger to become a better person.

[1221] That's okay.

[1222] There's certainly some wide variety in the way people are born.

[1223] But no, I disagree.

[1224] No, she's better in some ways.

[1225] You're better in some ways.

[1226] It doesn't, better person isn't a thing.

[1227] Is that what you mean?

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Yes, that's what I mean.

[1230] That is what I mean.

[1231] I don't really believe in that.

[1232] You don't.

[1233] The people are born worse.

[1234] Mm -mm.

[1235] With the exception of people, like psychopaths, right?

[1236] We think they're born.

[1237] There's something, there's something biologically wrong up there.

[1238] Yeah, psychologically.

[1239] There's something happening.

[1240] That's true.

[1241] Yeah.

[1242] But for the most part, I think everyone.

[1243] has good qualities and bad qualities.

[1244] Do you think you're born a narcissist or you become one or you can be nurtured into being one?

[1245] I think you could be nurtured into being one.

[1246] Mm -hmm.

[1247] And I think you could be probably born with some extra capacity for it.

[1248] Mm -hmm.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] Why?

[1251] I'm just curious.

[1252] Yeah.

[1253] I think about narcissism a lot.

[1254] Which is very narcissistic.

[1255] I know.

[1256] That's why I laugh.

[1257] No. Well, not just my own narcissism.

[1258] Just in general.

[1259] Mine is often on the table when I'm thinking about it, but also other people's.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] It's so easy to observe, isn't it?

[1262] I actually think for some people it's so obvious and crazy.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] But I think it exists in people that you don't necessarily think it does.

[1265] Well, I think we're all on the spectrum, don't you?

[1266] I mean, we're all somewhat narcissistic.

[1267] We certainly think of ourselves first at all times.

[1268] Right.

[1269] Some of it's healthy, normal levels.

[1270] Yeah, for survival, you've got to kind of...

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Yeah, but it's a spectrum.

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] I think that's true.

[1275] Okay, so you were talking about Metallica and Metallica's therapist.

[1276] Oh, uh -huh.

[1277] So there's a documentary.

[1278] Have you seen that documentary?

[1279] Oh, yeah, that's how I know about it.

[1280] Oh, right.

[1281] Some kind of monster.

[1282] Yes.

[1283] That came on 2004.

[1284] So the band was rescued from the brink of its own creative and personal disintegration through a couple years of intensive group therapy sessions, led by life coach Phil T -O -W -L -E -T -O -E -T -L -E -Tol?

[1285] That's a, I don't know.

[1286] I'd be afraid to take a stab at that.

[1287] Okay, that's a big, I don't know.

[1288] But there's an article about...

[1289] Have you seen some kind of monster?

[1290] No, I want to.

[1291] We should watch it.

[1292] I really want to watch it.

[1293] It's amazing because the therapist completely loses himself inside of Metallica.

[1294] It's phenomenal.

[1295] He, like every other other.

[1296] human wants to be in Metallica.

[1297] You can't be with them and not want to eventually go on stage and be them.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] That's fascinating.

[1300] And so at least the way it was edited, I'm making no claim about this person's efficacy as a therapist.

[1301] I have no idea, but at least how it was presented in the documentary, he was kind of trying to justify him staying long after he had mended the issues.

[1302] So he basically had to kick him out of Metallica at a certain point.

[1303] That is really funny.

[1304] But he had a like a journal, I guess.

[1305] Oh, Jesus, did he publish his journal?

[1306] Some of the entries are in here.

[1307] Oh.

[1308] So I'll read one or two.

[1309] So day three.

[1310] Today we attempted the time -tested trust -building exercise in which one member of the band allows himself to fall backward, demonstrating faith that another member of the band standing behind him will catch him.

[1311] Began well with Kirk Hammett catching James Hetfield, but quickly devolved when Hetfield pulled his arms away at the last second in a lot.

[1312] allowed Lars Ulrich to crash to the floor while laughing.

[1313] You're a fucking midget.

[1314] How could you possibly get hurt by that short of a fall?

[1315] Note.

[1316] Try something less physically dangerous next time and bring ice packs.

[1317] So that was day three.

[1318] Let's see.

[1319] How about this one?

[1320] Day 29.

[1321] To build their confidence and teamwork skills took the band into the woods for a paintball battle against former bassist Jason Newsteads, new band, echo brain.

[1322] Oh wow.

[1323] I don't know if that was in the dock.

[1324] However, during the first skirmish, Kirk Hammett refused to participate in, quote, such warfare simulation against my brother, unquote.

[1325] News stead subsequently captured James Heffield and Lars Ulrich and forced them to recreate the Russian roulette scene in the deer hunter with paintball guns.

[1326] Oh, geez.

[1327] Note, aggression, not a good idea.

[1328] Avoid guns of any kind.

[1329] Try something more spiritual next time.

[1330] Yeah, so she'll listen to Kay Hammett.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] It was so fun to watch that documentary because in, you know, Alter Jr. High, I loved Metallica.

[1333] Aaron and I were obsessed.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] James Hatfield is who I probably identified with.

[1336] He was the lead singer.

[1337] When the documentary starts, he's returning from Siberia, where he's been boar hunting for a couple months and drinking like a gallon of vodka every day.

[1338] That's crazy.

[1339] And so to gossip.

[1340] Ooh.

[1341] I went and saw them.

[1342] I was a guest of Bradley's to go see them play in Atlantic City one time.

[1343] Oh.

[1344] And got to hang out with Lars, which Lars is a very nice guy.

[1345] He's from Denmark or Holland.

[1346] Okay.

[1347] And he came to America to start a band.

[1348] Wow.

[1349] And so I believe, I could be wrong about this, but I think Hatfield and Lars generally share writing credit for all the songs.

[1350] Okay.

[1351] But I think that's where the little tiff about who was catching, you know, that he let him.

[1352] fall doesn't surprise me that those were the band members interesting so we were a guest of lars larz larz is so nice we rode on his tour bus to the show we got to i got to sit behind the drum set while lars played which was awesome then we all went out to like a band dinner afterwards at a hotel and i tried my hardest to to get something going with james at field and he just was he was not interested okay and he wasn't interested in bradley either okay and so i both had like hurt feelings And I thought, well, good for him.

[1353] He is not a status seeker.

[1354] He has no interest in engaging with us.

[1355] And I just thought we were going to bomb because in the documentary, he got sober.

[1356] Oh.

[1357] And I was like, oh, this is like a guy who got sober.

[1358] He's had this tough guy exterior.

[1359] I think he's really a sweetheart inside.

[1360] And I really was excited to kind of connect with him on that level.

[1361] And I didn't get to.

[1362] I'm sorry.

[1363] That's okay.

[1364] That's okay.

[1365] Well, you were talking about their family relationship and how they're lucky and, you know, they had a dad they could talk to, and you said maybe 15 % of America has that.

[1366] Mm -hmm.

[1367] So I can't find that stat that, like, how many kids feel like they can talk to their dads?

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] I looked, but I couldn't find anything.

[1370] Probably lower than 15%.

[1371] I mean...

[1372] Wasn't half of married people divorced?

[1373] So don't half of people generally don't have their dad around in the house?

[1374] But you can still talk to your dad?

[1375] like every other weekend i think the i think the more of the conversation is like do you have a relationship where you feel like you can get seek advice from him or tell him things that yeah you know are bothering you also gender's going to play a factor here maybe maybe not i don't know yeah maybe yeah yeah because your kids probably will feel that they can talk to you about anything i hope so girls but I can see where they would go like they're you know all they're going to want to do is like point me in the right direction that's they won't let off this thing of me going in the right direction as opposed to just listening to me yeah and hearing what I'm going through and empathizing with me I think you've got to police yourself as a parent to not constantly be trying to direct it into either learning a lesson from the whole thing yeah trying something different the next time you know you try to be so constructive at all times Right.

[1376] You probably should make space to just lament with them sometimes.

[1377] My mom was a master.

[1378] She would like, let me complain about something.

[1379] She'd go, that must be so hard.

[1380] And she'd really, like, really let me know she got there with me. She could understand how it's feeling.

[1381] Yeah.

[1382] And then she'd shift gears into next time.

[1383] I think that's the best case to try to incorporate both things.

[1384] Yeah.

[1385] She was very masterful.

[1386] That's good.

[1387] Making me feel heard and understood before she gave me the advice.

[1388] That's lovely.

[1389] Yeah.

[1390] I don't think I had that, but not because of them.

[1391] I don't think it's their fault, but I also think I felt like I couldn't really be super open about being stressed out about my life because I thought that would stress them out intensely, which it would have, I think.

[1392] Right.

[1393] One time I was really stressed out and I was having this eye issue.

[1394] Oh.

[1395] And what was the eye doing, twitching?

[1396] No, it had this like weird scabbiness on the top of my eyebrow.

[1397] Oh, right.

[1398] What I get every six days?

[1399] Sure.

[1400] But it was rare for me. And I had so that was happening.

[1401] I didn't know what that was.

[1402] And then I was just about money.

[1403] And then I was on the phone with them.

[1404] And something about money came up.

[1405] And then I like started crying and we hung up.

[1406] And then she called back kind of immediately and was like, okay, we're going to.

[1407] help you yeah yes which wasn't the point of the conversation but is very like indicative of what they do like I think they are very stressed out by the idea of me being stressed out right and they want to just be pragmatic they want to fix that yeah yeah yeah which is nice it's nice yeah back to that thing maybe they could have just listen talked with you about what it feels like to be stressed and not try to solve it.

[1408] It's impossible not to want to solve your kids' problems.

[1409] It is so stressful already on them, knowing that I'm far away doing this kind of crazy thing.

[1410] Yeah.

[1411] And so then to think like, oh my God, yeah, it's not working out.

[1412] This is our biggest fear.

[1413] It's getting confirmed.

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] Like, that's awful for them.

[1416] I get that.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] How did you end up clearing up that brow scab?

[1419] I think I went to the doctor and they gave me some creams.

[1420] And it worked.

[1421] Eventually, yeah.

[1422] Okay.

[1423] I have so many creams.

[1424] You've seen my medicine cabinet.

[1425] There's probably 35 different creams I've been prescribed.

[1426] Well.

[1427] And I wonder if they're ineffective or I've just never stayed the course long enough?

[1428] Well, no, no, no. I expect immediate results.

[1429] I know.

[1430] And that's, it's going to take a little bit.

[1431] Although mine wasn't like yours.

[1432] Mine was an infection, which is why I could put some, like, it was like an antibacterial cream, which then fix the infection.

[1433] Was it scabies?

[1434] I hope Anyways Anywho Oh you're going to do a little bull Yeah I feel like I need to I need wings Well Red Bull will give you wings Not a sponsor No But that was a pretty good ad Jennifer I hadn't even had a sip yet Oh my God It anticipated yeah Ooh like a junkie Like junkies get a little high Before they shoot it They do Yeah just when they cop They get high They get a dump of dopamine and serotonin.

[1435] So why can't they just always like...

[1436] I know, you think you could trick it.

[1437] Yeah.

[1438] Yeah, what if the treatment was just you bought dope over and over and over again, but you never shot it?

[1439] It's every five minutes you went and bought another bag of...

[1440] Or you're buying baby aspirin.

[1441] But you don't know it is.

[1442] Well, another weird thing, too, people who have like severe, severe alcoholism, and they have the shakes, they can just drink water.

[1443] there's so much alcohol still saturating their liver, it'll release enough to calm their tremors.

[1444] It like makes a new drink?

[1445] Basically, yeah, it just kind of gets some dissipated into the system.

[1446] That's rough.

[1447] I've had the shakes many times and it is a, it is demoralizing.

[1448] I don't think I've ever had them.

[1449] Yeah, I've had it where I'm laying in bed and I'm like on my side and I keep my stomach keeps like convulsing.

[1450] Yes, and I'm almost having a seizure.

[1451] I've had that a bunch of times and sweating profusely.

[1452] How much did you drink to make that happen?

[1453] It'd be like, you know, where I'd maybe drank for seven days straight, real, real hard.

[1454] And then that first night not drinking pretty bad, tremors, yeah.

[1455] Uff.

[1456] Yuck.

[1457] You feel the feeling is like, oh, wow, I did it.

[1458] Like I'm physically addicted to alcohol.

[1459] Like, wow, I've crossed that threshold.

[1460] Yeah.

[1461] Yeah.

[1462] Yeah, it's very demoralizing.

[1463] Oh, so he talks about how his grandmother likes Seth better than Scott.

[1464] Oh, right, because he was a musician.

[1465] Yeah.

[1466] And so, you know, people say, like, they don't like one kid better than the other.

[1467] But do you think they do?

[1468] It's interesting because that's too generic of a term.

[1469] I think I love my kids equally.

[1470] I really do.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] But there are categories where I enter an easier.

[1473] state of flow with each of them so if like lincoln and i are doing something physical like riding motorcycles or bicycles or something we can get in a real locked in state of flow yeah whereas delta i can get in a locked in state of flow just talking like she has the seemingly a very similar comedic brain which is just the point of everything is to ultimately be goofy and so you could say from the outside like oh he gets along better with delta or likes delta more but i don't think that's accurate.

[1474] No, I love them both very equally.

[1475] Yeah.

[1476] And think about them equally, but there are niches where we get along better.

[1477] Sure, that makes sense.

[1478] Yeah, yeah.

[1479] So if this grandma only had, let's say, music with the boys.

[1480] Yeah.

[1481] It does make sense.

[1482] I just, you know, I don't know if everyone's lying or not.

[1483] Mm. And it's not, yeah, you have to take love out of the equation because I do think you do love the things that you've spawned the same.

[1484] Yeah.

[1485] But liking is different.

[1486] Sure.

[1487] And I guess that's what I'm saying.

[1488] It's like we're calling it liking, but I would think more accurately just be like ease of connection or ease of communication or ease of flow is going to vary.

[1489] Right.

[1490] You know, my brother and sister accused my mother of liking me the most.

[1491] Just because my mom and I have a very effortless communication or a state of flow.

[1492] But I know I think she loves me more.

[1493] than my sister.

[1494] No. I think she likes your sister.

[1495] The most?

[1496] Yeah.

[1497] Oh, that's great.

[1498] I would like that.

[1499] I'd be happy to have that be the case.

[1500] I'm getting liked plenty enough.

[1501] Not the most, actually.

[1502] No, not the most.

[1503] Also, I never see her interact with your brother, so I can't include him in this.

[1504] But I think she likes you guys the same.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] But different.

[1507] And she loves my brother to pieces.

[1508] But my brother's not generally super comfortable with physical affection.

[1509] Like I'll lay my head on my mom's lap And let her pet my ear for like two hours And I love that I think that's harder for my brother To allow her to do that Yeah So again, it's not really a matter Of her desire to do it Is not more with me Right It's just I'm up for it Do you let your mom pet you or your dad pet you?

[1510] No No I mean we're not Well, I guess I did when I was younger My mom used to scratch my arm I'm so glad you changed your picture to your baby picture.

[1511] Oh, yeah, I did on Instagram.

[1512] Yeah, I love that little white dress.

[1513] Wabi Wobb, are you physically intimate with your parents?

[1514] No. You'll not lay your head in either parents' lap.

[1515] No. You guys are missing out.

[1516] As an adult, well, it's not really all up.

[1517] I mean, it's up to everyone.

[1518] It is, it is.

[1519] Well, I constantly, I obsess about it because I am petting those kids of mine.

[1520] Anytime they're near me. Yeah.

[1521] I'm just pawing at them.

[1522] Yeah.

[1523] I'm like, fuck, they're going to get to some age where they're not going to want me to do that.

[1524] I know, because I would say like, oh, it's probably because we never really had that kind of relationship.

[1525] But we did.

[1526] I'm not the same as you, really.

[1527] Like, I don't think it was as physically affectionate.

[1528] Just, it wasn't like, we're at the table and, like, my mom has her arm on me. Like, that never happened.

[1529] Okay.

[1530] But we would watch TV together.

[1531] in her bed and she would scratch my arm and all like so that all was all very much there and I would always hug and kiss them before bed but I wasn't like hugging and kissing them all day long right but it was like a necessary thing before but but then at some point that just fell away I don't know why or how it's kind of sad it is sad I think it's a big part of your big enough part of your household that that's going to like stick around because it even you do it too.

[1532] Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[1533] So it comes from like not just you two there.

[1534] Right.

[1535] Oh, and Carly, all of us.

[1536] Carly kisses them and stuff.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] I constantly am watching how she is affectionate with them.

[1539] Yeah.

[1540] And I just think they're so lucky.

[1541] The way she kisses their neck and cheek like a million times in a second.

[1542] I think she does them all the time.

[1543] They giggle.

[1544] I'm like, oh, they're so lucky.

[1545] Yeah, they are.

[1546] They are.

[1547] They get a lot of love.

[1548] Okay.

[1549] You, you give an analogy using Taco Bell.

[1550] I mean, it's sort of irrelevant.

[1551] I just wanted to talk about Taco Bell for a But yeah, you said if you're on tour and you want Taco Bell, you're going to get Taco Bell.

[1552] But when you go home and you want Taco Bell, you're probably not going to get Taco Bell.

[1553] Right.

[1554] And it just made me think about Taco Bell.

[1555] And because I just had it recently.

[1556] Did you try the Mexican pizza?

[1557] You were completely asleep on the Mexican pizza.

[1558] I was asleep on everything.

[1559] We got there and I was like, oh no, I don't know what to get.

[1560] Wait, did you go inside?

[1561] No, no, no. This was like 1 a .m. in Michigan, drive through.

[1562] No, we were not drunk, no. We were going from the airport to our hotel.

[1563] Oh, okay.

[1564] And we were starving.

[1565] I wasn't implying anyone was drunk driving.

[1566] I'm just saying 1 a .m. you went for a wedding.

[1567] I'm assuming you guys are shit -faced.

[1568] That was a fair assumption.

[1569] Took an Uber through the Taco Bell.

[1570] But I didn't know what to get because they have so many things on the menu and I haven't been keeping up.

[1571] Yes.

[1572] It changes quickly there.

[1573] Yeah, I was sad.

[1574] What should I have gotten?

[1575] I guess the Mexican pizza.

[1576] You should have gotten four hard tacos.

[1577] Supremes in a Mexican pizza Well, I got soft tacos I like soft I like Yes, yes, yes You don't get the crunch I know I like soft Oh that's so weird Because you love Doritos I do Are you sure you love them more When's the last time You got a hard taco Well you made them recently and they were so good And I like that But I do prefer a soft taco Okay I do I think it's like maneuvering That thing is harder It cracks and pieces fall out and some of the meat falls out it's just a lot well as you know recently and it had been a decade yeah charlie and eric and i were coming home from offroading and we were so dirty that we decided to go in and wash up and we were definitely getting talked about yes at a talk about and since we are already inside to wash up we're like well fuck it let's let's sit down and eat yeah you ate there and it was the best dining experience we all three of us kept going like this is so wonderful We eat it here.

[1578] Unlimited sauce packets.

[1579] That's nice.

[1580] You're making a mess, but it's over the tray finally.

[1581] I'm always eating those in the car.

[1582] Yeah, we were in the car.

[1583] So to have the luxury of just getting messy with it.

[1584] Also, shit, I should have ordered another blank.

[1585] Let me just go back up to the counter.

[1586] I think Eric, I think Eric reordered two or three times.

[1587] Ha!

[1588] And we all just had the best dining experience.

[1589] I can see that.

[1590] It's funny because when I ate it in the car, I was like...

[1591] This is not an ad, by the way.

[1592] No, it's not.

[1593] But it's like Cassie.

[1594] I mean, we just can't stop talking about.

[1595] things we like.

[1596] So I was eating the stuff and I was like, okay, like, it's not as good as I remember.

[1597] I was a little sad about that, but I ate it.

[1598] But since then, I've been craving it.

[1599] Oh, interesting.

[1600] Isn't that weird?

[1601] It is.

[1602] Like the takeaway was like, eh, okay, but now I want more.

[1603] Oh, wow.

[1604] Taco smell.

[1605] Is that something people said?

[1606] That's what Nate always says.

[1607] Let's go to Taco smell.

[1608] It has a good smell.

[1609] I love it.

[1610] I know.

[1611] It's the sauce.

[1612] Do you know when you We were out of town, Wabi Wob and I were in a very deep turnaround pinch.

[1613] Before Jim.

[1614] Before Jim.

[1615] Oh, after I left after Kate.

[1616] Yeah.

[1617] And Wabi Wob picked up a sack of Taco Bell and we ate it here in the attic.

[1618] That was the same day I had Taco Bell.

[1619] Oh, my God, you're right.

[1620] Oh, my God.

[1621] Wow, it was in the stars.

[1622] Wow.

[1623] Wow.

[1624] I feel touched by that.

[1625] Me too.

[1626] Cosmic.

[1627] I have not had that since I was 10 Oh, you're kidding Yeah Oh, it's not one of your cheats No, how crazy What did you get?

[1628] Tacos?

[1629] You got the Supreme and I got the cheesy gordita crunch See, these are ones I should have Like, I didn't get cheesy gordita crunch I didn't get Soft and crunchy Oh my God I'm gonna have to get that again Let's do it this week Okay Yeah Because you gotta try the Mexican pizza And that, yeah It's like five six dollars It's so outrageously priced.

[1630] Just it's infinitely more expensive than everything else on the menu.

[1631] Well, that was the other thing.

[1632] So we ordered a quote bunch of stuff.

[1633] And obviously not that much stuff.

[1634] But for us, because we were like, oh, we'll do this.

[1635] Oh, let's do that thing.

[1636] Throw one of those in.

[1637] Yeah.

[1638] And then it was $10 total.

[1639] And we could not believe it.

[1640] So that's it.

[1641] Really?

[1642] Well, yeah.

[1643] I mean, the last one was just like people should probably watch that Jason Mamo or for Carhart's video, because it's good.

[1644] Yeah.

[1645] Did you watch it?

[1646] I watched it a long time ago, and then I pulled it back up.

[1647] I was going to play it, but it's long.

[1648] Yeah, it's very long.

[1649] So I'm not going to play it.

[1650] I'm not going to play it.

[1651] I just really know, I don't know what the plot is of it.

[1652] It's just kind of a slice of his life.

[1653] Sure.

[1654] I'll just play a little bit.

[1655] Oh, I can't.

[1656] I don't have service.

[1657] Oh, well, that solves that.

[1658] So anyway, that's all.

[1659] Okay.

[1660] Okay.

[1661] I love you.

[1662] Love you.

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[1664] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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