416 - Call You Next Week

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's Georgia Hartstark.

[3] And that's Tidi -Tadie Whisper Karen Kilgara.

[4] This is an ASMR punk, yes?

[5] Do you have fingernails to tap anything?

[6] No, that's a big thing.

[7] Sorry, Bjork?

[8] No. I don't.

[9] I just cut them.

[10] There, did that work?

[11] On your skin?

[12] Yeah.

[13] Tip -tap, tippity -tap.

[14] On my watch, I bought myself a fucking step -counter watch because I'm trying to, like, count my steps, obviously.

[15] Those things go hand -in -hand.

[16] But I know it's just counting my many, many hand gestures that I do all day.

[17] Yeah.

[18] And it's like, okay, I'm going to put that number, you know, down that that's what how many steps I took.

[19] It should count because that's in that.

[20] It's also a limb.

[21] Arms are the legs of the upper body.

[22] And you're moving them all over the body.

[23] You always say that.

[24] I've always told you that.

[25] Also, isn't it like, that's actually really funny.

[26] They should put step counters on like expressive people.

[27] Oh, yeah.

[28] people that are like constantly this and be like, do you burn more?

[29] I want like a toe ring step counter.

[30] I don't know why I'm so like, it has to be right and perfect.

[31] You can't be proud of yourself and what you've accomplished unless it's correct.

[32] Unless you've got the numbers to prove it to back you up.

[33] Yeah.

[34] And that's why I can't breathe a lot.

[35] Yeah.

[36] I think that's a lot of pressure for steps.

[37] Maybe we can look at that on some other podcast.

[38] Okay.

[39] Let's do it.

[40] We don't have to do it today.

[41] No. This is the true crime podcast.

[42] Yes, that's right.

[43] This is the true crime podcast.

[44] I want to, can I address something really quickly and just casually?

[45] Sure.

[46] This is a true crime podcast.

[47] It's been around for over eight years.

[48] What episode number is this?

[49] 500 and something or other?

[50] We've done 416 episodes.

[51] 90 % of them have two stories each, one for both of us.

[52] Once in a while, I want everyone to know our stories that we do are going to overlap, are going to come right before, right after some other of the thousands of podcasts that or true crime, have done the same story.

[53] And you just have to deal with it.

[54] We're not stealing.

[55] They're not stealing.

[56] Our stories are picked and researched months and months in advance now that we have really amazing producers.

[57] Yeah, and researchers, yeah.

[58] I just want everyone to know that.

[59] I feel like there is a level of make the problem be this because the problems on the outside are so awful right now.

[60] And truly, I think people are justified.

[61] There's an escapism element to it.

[62] But it's like, here's the real problem.

[63] These two shows overlap with their stories.

[64] If only.

[65] Like, I support the delusion and I understand the need.

[66] But that would be an amazing thing where people, because you have to think it through.

[67] What would be the value add there?

[68] What would we get or what would anyone else get from that?

[69] Yeah.

[70] Like, we're not breaking these stories.

[71] we are taking other people, journalists and writers, hard, long research, and just boiling it down.

[72] Yeah, and crediting them to make an hour podcast.

[73] And it's okay to be looking for problems elsewhere because the problems in front of you are like a train crashing into your car.

[74] So got it.

[75] Got it, yeah.

[76] Okay.

[77] Yeah.

[78] What else you got?

[79] Let's move on from this topic.

[80] I'm shaking.

[81] My step counter's gone up so much because I'm just shaking my arms up in my...

[82] Because look!

[83] Hey, listen!

[84] And also, guess what?

[85] This isn't Little League baseball.

[86] We're not competing against other podcasts.

[87] It does not work that way.

[88] It doesn't.

[89] We listen to all the other true crime podcasts and love them and appreciate them and have them on our podcast network.

[90] Right.

[91] And also, they all have to be different.

[92] It's all different voices.

[93] You like to hang with different hosts.

[94] God bless, truly.

[95] You don't have to pick one true crime podcast.

[96] No, you do not.

[97] You can pick many.

[98] And I would tell you as a person who uses podcasts as avoidance myself, you have to pick many.

[99] Right.

[100] Because you need to fill that library with as many as you can.

[101] That library of your head?

[102] Or the library on my phone.

[103] Oh, right, that one too.

[104] Yes.

[105] But also that one too.

[106] The library on my phone drowns out the library in my head.

[107] Amen.

[108] Of weird random shit, people have said.

[109] Oh, Jesus.

[110] A great example of interaction that we do adore is an email.

[111] like this one that we got, subject line is gushing over Virginia Hall.

[112] So if you don't know or weren't here or listening out of order, I recently covered an amazing spy named Virginia Hall, one of the greats of all time.

[113] World War II spy, incredible woman.

[114] Basically was an intrinsic part of the Allied victory in World War II.

[115] So this email starts gushing over Virginia Hall and it says, hi ladies, I know this isn't a true hometown story by I wanted to send you a quick note about the latest episode on Virginia Hall.

[116] I literally gasped when you started off her intro.

[117] She's one of my favorite people in history, particularly since I worked for a few years at the International Spy Museum in Washington, D .C. Right?

[118] I'm so happy that you included the name of her leg, Cuthbert, as it is one of the quirky factoids that I think makes history and the Spy Museum great.

[119] Virginia's niece worked with the museum to donate objects and to tell Virginia's story.

[120] She actually donated Cuthbert, who is proudly displayed alongside Virginia's ID and radio, among other objects.

[121] The radio is shockingly heavy, which paints the picture of how grueling her hike across the Pyrenees was.

[122] Her leg was seven pounds.

[123] Oh, my God.

[124] So on top of that radio.

[125] Once she made it to Spain, Virginia radioed in to let London know she was okay.

[126] She stated that Cuthbert had given her a hard time, and the SOE replied that she should eliminate him thinking Cuthbert was an informant and not her prosthetic.

[127] Eliminate.

[128] Wow.

[129] Wow.

[130] Oh, my God.

[131] The museum also features so many important people in their artifacts.

[132] And then it says with Cuthbert, these objects tell stories about how women differently able to people and people we overlook can be so powerful and the best spies.

[133] I've already shared the podcast with the Spy Museum team and they're excited to listen.

[134] Oh, now I'm nervous.

[135] Thanks for all you do, S .S. and DGM, Julia.

[136] Wow, Julia.

[137] What a rad job.

[138] Right?

[139] Oh, my God.

[140] The Spy Museum.

[141] The Spy Museum.

[142] That's cool.

[143] What a great email.

[144] Thanks for writing in.

[145] Yes, thank you kindly.

[146] Oh, real quick before we start.

[147] Let's talk about true crime.

[148] Did you watch?

[149] Oh.

[150] He called himself mostly harmless, the documentary.

[151] No, I have not seen it yet.

[152] Okay, you have to see it.

[153] I don't know what station.

[154] It's on.

[155] Tune in with station.

[156] It's on.

[157] That's not a. Tune into NBC at 7 p .m. It's about a hiker that was found dead in the woods, and no one could identify him, blah, blah, blah.

[158] But it's also about the sleuthing community that ended up finding who his identity was and what the sleuthing community is like.

[159] So it's as big of a story there as it is about who was this guy and what happened with him.

[160] I'm fascinated.

[161] I will watch it the second we're done.

[162] It's really great.

[163] and there's a twisty turn at the end of who this guy was so perfect you know i love twisty turns hell yeah also i just feel like this it's such a cool thing that this genre that we've been interested in for so long that many people have it's almost like and i is getting turned to it to say it isn't just the singular stories but it's this kind of community around it or the stories around it, the family, the people who go on to do something about it or whatever, where it's not this boiled down version of, well, this body was found and then identified the end or whatever.

[164] It's like there's so much more to it.

[165] Including, and this is in the documentary, the fallout from that.

[166] Yes, always, always fallout.

[167] The many, many fallouts from that too.

[168] When this mystery network gets identified, they owe you $800 for that plug because it worked on me. Oh, it's on Max.

[169] It's on Max, formerly known as the HBO.

[170] That's right.

[171] Oh, there's a story that happened.

[172] You may have seen it.

[173] Did you see that Amber Alert in Los Angeles County?

[174] No. There was an Amber Alert about a stolen car with a child in it.

[175] Oh, my God.

[176] These two young women, their names are Reagan Dunn and Yenny Lou.

[177] And so these two young women got the Amber Alert and we're like, that's near here.

[178] Let's go drive around.

[179] They find the fucking car.

[180] You didn't see this?

[181] No!

[182] I'm going to send it to you.

[183] Send it to me immediately.

[184] They find the car.

[185] They see the little kid.

[186] He's sitting in it alone.

[187] They call the cops.

[188] The cops come.

[189] The father comes.

[190] There's a reunion.

[191] They didn't go near the car.

[192] They didn't try to do anything.

[193] They did it so perfectly and exactly right.

[194] And they were on the news explaining how they did it.

[195] They look like they're 19 years old.

[196] Like baby girls.

[197] Give them a key to the city immediately.

[198] It's a TikTok creator named Dr. Engels, who basically took the footage from ABC 7, and they basically took the description of the car and the first three numbers and letters of the license plate and drove around for 10 minutes, and we're like, there's a gray Honda right there with 8 XP.

[199] That's incredible.

[200] Find the little boy inside, call the cops, the father runs up.

[201] Can you believe that?

[202] This is why you should never mind your own business, you know what I mean?

[203] for real.

[204] At least in that way where it's like that, they made a gigantic difference.

[205] They got it done.

[206] It's so cool.

[207] That's so rad.

[208] Amazing.

[209] Amazing.

[210] Love it.

[211] Love a positive story like that.

[212] So good.

[213] And also I just, when I was watching it, I was like, I was so afraid they were going to get out and go and like open the car and grab the kid or do something.

[214] And they were like, nope, they just sat there, called the cops and waited until the cops came.

[215] So they were like eyes on.

[216] Yeah.

[217] These young women do not look like they're very young looking.

[218] And I'm like, you handled this perfectly.

[219] Beautiful.

[220] Beautiful.

[221] Hooray.

[222] All right.

[223] On that, should we go to the exactly right highlights and get into our stories?

[224] Yeah.

[225] Let's kick it off with some very exciting news.

[226] Oh, this is exactly right network highlights.

[227] We have a network and we have podcasts on it.

[228] And we're about to tell you some highlights on the podcasts.

[229] We have a podcast called Adulting.

[230] It's hosted by Michelle Boutotow and Jordan Carlos.

[231] And very hilarious, very funny.

[232] Michelle Boutot starred in her own Netflix series.

[233] It kicked off, I think it premiered like three days after the writer strike started.

[234] So we couldn't talk about it and we couldn't promote it, which was heartbreaking.

[235] So heartbreaking.

[236] She'd been working on it for so long and nobody was allowed to talk about it.

[237] It was called Survival of the Thickest.

[238] It's based on Michelle's book that she wrote.

[239] So if you want to read that book, get that.

[240] But the amazing news, especially these days, is that she just found out Netflix picked her up for a second season.

[241] Amazing.

[242] That's huge.

[243] Incredible these days.

[244] And you can check it out.

[245] One of our podcasters, Lisa Trager, from That's Messed Up, is on it.

[246] And of course, Jordan Carlos himself is on it.

[247] So keep your eye peeled for that.

[248] We're very excited.

[249] We're very proud of Michelle.

[250] And then over on Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan, my cousin, who's one of the sweetest, most lovely human beings I've ever met, is joined by humorous author and podcast host Stephanie Wilder Taylor, and they speak about Stephanie's new book, Drunkish, loving and leaving alcohol.

[251] I cannot wait to read this book.

[252] It's going to be incredible.

[253] And Dr. Dan has a wonderful conversation with her, so make sure you listen to Parent Footprint.

[254] And then comedian Zach Noey Towers, who's also my good friend, is Roz's guest over on ghosted by Roz Hernandez this week.

[255] He's hilarious.

[256] You have to listen to that.

[257] And then over in the MFF store, one of the most popular items of all time is back in stock.

[258] It's the fuck you.

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[260] If that doesn't resonate with you and your life status, then we also have joggers for those who are single, divorced, or still figuring it out.

[261] These make great gifts for the goth winter bride in your life.

[262] So make sure to go to my favorite murder .com and check out the store.

[263] Get some sweatpants.

[264] Yeah.

[265] Whatever your situation.

[266] Maybe you can get a pair of sweatpants that don't represent your situation and wear them and you just feel like someone new.

[267] Yeah, like a liar.

[268] Yeah.

[269] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[270] Absolutely.

[271] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[272] Exactly.

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[288] Goodbye.

[289] All right.

[290] I think I'm first this week.

[291] Yeah.

[292] So Georgia, today, I'm going to kick it off by telling you about what some people would call a fantastical murder that took place in the late 19th century in Ireland.

[293] Before we start, I'll just say this.

[294] this is ultimately a story of really horrible domestic violence and murder, let that be a trigger warning for anybody that might have a sensitivity to this topic.

[295] So there's some stuff you have to know about that time and place.

[296] So all around the Irish countryside, there are remains of the stone and earth ring -shaped forts that had been built around early medieval settlements as protective barriers, right?

[297] So there would be a settlement, and then they would build a wall around it, and the whole thing would be in a circle.

[298] But then, and that was in medieval time, so over time, as settlements are abandoned, they're overgrown by nature, they just end up leaving ring -shaped formations in the earth because of local folklore come to be known as fairy forts or fairy rings.

[299] Cool.

[300] And how much do you want to go there with a metal detector right now?

[301] Well, but you couldn't, because I'd be disrespectful to the fairies.

[302] They don't want you in there.

[303] Okay.

[304] Yeah.

[305] But yes, you're correct in how much I would love that.

[306] But then you'd be cursed.

[307] Probably.

[308] Yes, exactly.

[309] And at that time, it was very common.

[310] Irish people, especially people who lived out in the country, they're very superstitious, but they also very much believe in fairies.

[311] And this is, I have proof of this.

[312] My grandfather believed in fairies.

[313] Wow.

[314] Like he told my sister all about it growing up and he wasn't being cute or like telling They believed that they were real and they were in and around the area that they lived and you had to make sure you know it's like the whole thing of like knocking on wood when you say something it's because you don't want the fairies in the wood to hear you because they will go make it happen so there's lots of things like that that's like it's mythology it's folklore it's Irish culture and tradition and so they believe fairies are like little human like creatures sometimes people call them the little people and they can either be very helpful and give you gifts and be really nice, or they can be very hurtful and, like, kill all your crops and worse.

[315] And it just depends on the way, and kind of it seems to me, the respect with which you interact with them.

[316] So when a young woman named Bridget Cleary falls sick after walking by a fairy fort in March of 1895, her husband Michael Clary tells family and friends he thinks that the fairies are to blame.

[317] But the story he then begins to weave about his wife is a supernatural tale of changelings that begs the question, does this man really believe in fairies, or is he an unhappy husband looking to punish his independent wife?

[318] This is the story of the murder of Bridget Clary.

[319] Yeah, right?

[320] So the main sources used for this story, there's an 22 article from Atlas Obscira, one of my favorite websites, and they have a lot of books that they push at.

[321] So good.

[322] they push out that they put out.

[323] It's geography.

[324] It's like it's cultural stuff.

[325] It's trip planning.

[326] Atlas Obscura if you've never heard of it, go interact.

[327] They're amazing.

[328] So they have an article called The Haunting True Story of Bridget Clary's Changeling Murder by Sarah Dern.

[329] Then there's also an article from Mental Floss entitled The Bizarre Death of Bridget Clary the Fairy Wife written by Maria J. Perez Cuarevo.

[330] And then there's also an article from the National Archives of Ireland entitled Behind the Scenes the Murder of Bridget Clary and that is provided by archivist Patricia Fallon.

[331] And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

[332] So this starts March 4th, 1895, 26 -year -old Bridget Clary of Balaveletle in County Tipperary.

[333] I can't tell you, I looked up BalaVadle how to pronounce it.

[334] I'm positive.

[335] I'm pronouncing it wrong.

[336] Every little thing that you were supposed to click on and it said, like the computer voice says it, there were two ones that were completely different.

[337] Then I looked up a video and that guy said it a third different way.

[338] And I was like, you know what?

[339] I can't be held to these standards anymore of pronouncing things correctly.

[340] Okay, we're in county Tipperary.

[341] I know I'm saying that right.

[342] So Bridget sets out on a three -mile walk to a village called Kyla Nagrinah to deliver eggs to her father's cousin, Jack Dunn.

[343] So she's done this walk countless times, and it takes her by the fairy fort on Kylan Agranagh Hill.

[344] So most people know that you should stay away from fairy forts.

[345] They were kind of taboo places.

[346] You had to be very careful in any place where fairies hung around.

[347] You didn't want to just be messing around randomly.

[348] And Bridget, being fascinated by fairies and maybe not the biggest believer in that part of the mythology, she would go and visit fairy forts.

[349] and this one she passed a lot and so on this trip home she went up into it to look around I'm going to read you a part of Maria J. Perez -Quervo's article from Mental Floss because this seems needed in that Maria says quote, it was also a society steeped in legends of the supernatural fairy belief in particular was pervasive in Irish rural societies at the time and had long coexisted with Christian doctrine children grew up hearing legends of the little people from their earliest days and learned how to appease them by leaving untasted food on the table, for example, or saying bless them whenever the fairies were mentioned.

[350] The fairies were blamed for everything that went wrong, lost items, spilled milk, bad crops.

[351] As one county Sligo man interviewed at the start of the 20th century told an anthropologist, quote, nothing is more certain than that there are fairies, end quote.

[352] Wow.

[353] So it's a real old country belief.

[354] Yeah.

[355] So on her way home that evening, Bridget, after she goes up into the ferry fort, still walking home, she starts getting the chills.

[356] They continue through the night.

[357] She wakes up the next morning with a terrible headache.

[358] She feels terrible.

[359] She's really sick.

[360] She spends the next few days in bed, but her symptoms only get worse and her fever's rising.

[361] So they wait five days for some reason, and then on Saturday, March night, Bridget's father, Patrick Boland, hikes four miles in the rain to try to go get help from the nearest doctor.

[362] But the doctor can't come right then.

[363] He says he'll be by soon.

[364] In the next week, Bridget's husband, Michael, goes back to the doctor's house twice more to ask him to please come and look at Bridget.

[365] The doctor finally makes it to the Cleary's house a full week later.

[366] Guy, come on.

[367] Yeah.

[368] This is one of the problems living in the country.

[369] No services.

[370] So he diagnoses Bridget with nervous.

[371] nervous excitement and slight bronchitis and prescribes her a little medicine.

[372] He says it's nothing too serious.

[373] Even still, that night, Michael calls the local priest to come and give Bridget her last rights.

[374] So he's clearly very worried about her and it, to him for some reason, it is a big deal.

[375] Michael then tells cousin Jack Dunn that there could be a supernatural cause behind Bridget's illness because he claims Bridget looks, quote, too fine, unquote, to be the real Bridget.

[376] And he claims that she is two inches taller somehow than she normally is.

[377] Yeah, I know.

[378] Jack's a well -known storyteller in the region.

[379] He is well -versed in local folklore.

[380] And he suggests there's a possibility that if those things are true, Bridget isn't Bridget at all, that there's a good chance the woman lying in her bed is a change -lange -like.

[381] So according to the myth, evil fairies who want children but are unable to conceive will kidnap human women to carry a baby for them and replace the women that they stole with a changeling, which is basically like a fancy word for an imposter.

[382] We'll give you a little background on this family.

[383] Bridget is born Bridget Boland on February 19, 1869, in Balavidle.

[384] And she's bright and beautiful and independent.

[385] independent from an early age.

[386] And unlike many children that grew up around her, she actually learns to read and write.

[387] And then when she's 18, her intelligence wins her a very coveted job as a dressmaker's apprentice 15 miles away in Clonmel.

[388] So Bridget's a prime example of the new woman, which is this emerging trend that begin to challenge the rigid gender roles of turn of the century, Ireland.

[389] And it's in Clonmel that Bridgett, who's 18, meets 27 -year -old Michael Cleary, who is a Cooper, which is a guy that makes casks and barrels.

[390] So they fall in love and they get married on August 6, 1887 in the Catholic Church.

[391] But soon after Bridget's mother gets sick, so Bridget moves home to take care of her.

[392] And to help financially, Bridget puts her dressmaking skills to work.

[393] So she buys a sewing machine, which is very rare for the average person in the...

[394] that village.

[395] It's, you know, really expensive, something that almost no one would have.

[396] And she starts making clothing and hats and repairing clothing for people.

[397] She also keeps chickens and sells the eggs, which is what she was doing when she was on that walk before she got sick.

[398] So she is very industrious and she's very, you know, she wants to make money.

[399] She wants to contribute to the family.

[400] And Michael, meanwhile, continues to live and work back in Clon Mill for the next year, and then when Bridget's mother passes away, he moves back to Balavidle, and he and Bridget actually move in with her father into a very nice stone cottage.

[401] So her father, Patrick, is a former laborer, and he is actually entitled to the old laborer's cottage, and it's the nicest home in the village by far.

[402] Most people, you know, you have thatch roofs, some of the homes are made of stone, don't have windows.

[403] And this one looks like this home is really nice, beautiful.

[404] It looks like a two -story house.

[405] So they have this beautiful home.

[406] They have a double income household.

[407] The fact that both Bridget and Michael are educated, it sets the clearies apart from the rest of their village.

[408] And on top of that, Bridget's fierce city girl independence sets her apart from most of the local women.

[409] And from the outside, Bridget and Michael's relationship seems to be happy, but the people close to them will say that Michael disapproves of Bridget's independence, the fact that she has several jobs, including one that causes her to walk alone to make deliveries.

[410] Basically, they say he would prefer a more submissive wife.

[411] So when she gets sick and, you know, the sickness doesn't go away for a while, Michael becomes convinced his wife is a changeling.

[412] So basically, Jack Dunn tells him, you should go go to see a fairy doctor, a local man named Dennis Ganey.

[413] So Dennis tells Michael he needs to boil a special combination of herbs in what's called new milk, which is the nutrient -rich milk that a cow who's just given birth gives.

[414] I put that in my protein shakes every morning.

[415] Yeah, that's right.

[416] Just straight out of the teat.

[417] He says, you need to feed that herb milk to Bridget.

[418] So on the night of Thursday, March 14th, 1895, Michael bruised that concoction, and then with the help of five other men, including three of Bridget's cousin and her own father, they hold her down and force feed her this milk.

[419] I really do put that in my, there is a bovine colostrum that's what it's called, and it's actually really good for you.

[420] So that's like the first time I've heard the medicine from back then not being like toxic, you know, and they're like, bleed them out or whatever.

[421] Like feed them, you know, of pond water.

[422] It's like actually.

[423] Proven.

[424] Yeah.

[425] Yeah, it's proven.

[426] Also, it's like that history actually makes it so it's like one of these things from these days, which are usually ridiculous in pond water.

[427] It's like, oh, wait, that also proves that.

[428] Yeah.

[429] Yeah.

[430] Sorry, vegans, but it works.

[431] Yeah.

[432] Sometimes you just need that good new milk.

[433] Okay.

[434] So as they're holding her down, it's so upsetting this whole idea.

[435] But Michael's yelling things like, Take it, witch, or I'll kill you, away with you, Changeling.

[436] Come home, Bridget Boland.

[437] So he's screaming this at her while she's screaming and fighting against the five men that are holding her down.

[438] Then, when that isn't working, then he decides he's going to try another treatment for expelling fairy spirits, which is taking a hot poker to her forehead and then throwing urine on her.

[439] No, that's not, no. That's what I was just mentioning is the pond water.

[440] Right.

[441] Holy shit.

[442] Hey, where did this come from?

[443] Hey, has this ever worked before?

[444] So then why are you doing it?

[445] What man came up with this to tell a man to do to a woman?

[446] When Bridget continues to fight, they hold her over the fireplace grate because they believe, or they're told the heat is meant to drive the fairy spirits out.

[447] And they ask her three times, are you bringing?

[448] Bridget Boland, wife of Michael Cleary, in the name of God.

[449] And she is answering.

[450] So just to know, she has a cousin there named Johanna.

[451] There are witnesses that are there.

[452] And she is the whole time saying, I am, what are you talking about?

[453] And trying to fight them, but also say, it's me, it's me. I mean, it's like an old -timey exorcism.

[454] Bad.

[455] Holy shit.

[456] So this is when, at this point, Bridget's aunt Mary Kennedy, who just lives up the road, walks into the cottage, and she's horrified at what she's seeing.

[457] And she goes over to Bridget's cousin, Johanna Burke, who's been there the whole time witnessing this chaos, and Johanna would later describe Bridget as acting wild and deranged.

[458] But she never specifies if she thinks that's because it's of the fairy possession or the fact that she's being held down and assaulted in horrible ways.

[459] So finally around midnight, Bridget stops fighting.

[460] Michael seems to be satisfied that he has successfully driven out the evil spirits.

[461] But just to be safe, he has the priest come back to the cottage next morning to perform mass and make sure that the evil spirits are gone.

[462] So after that morning mass, Bridget gets out of bed for the first time since she got sick 11 days prior.

[463] She puts on some of her nicest clothes, which her cousin, Johanna later puts it, gave Bridget courage when she goes among the people.

[464] So apparently she, Bridget, felt better and she was getting all her stuff done.

[465] Everything appears to be back to normal.

[466] But later that evening, Michael and Bridget are having family over for tea.

[467] When Bridget makes a fatal mistake, she asks for milk for her tea.

[468] And according to folklore, fairies love fresh milk.

[469] So it sets Michael off.

[470] He immediately suspects that the evil changeling spirits have kept their grip over Bridgett.

[471] And he starts hammering her with questions again, making her answer three times that she is indeed the real Bridget.

[472] But now Bridget's fed up with everything.

[473] She only answers him the first two times he asks.

[474] And the third time, she fires back saying, your mother used to go with the fairies, and that's why you think I am going with them.

[475] Now, real quick, I believe, but I could be wrong about this, but I believe the idea of quote -unquote going with the fairies, is what people of old -time Ireland used to call going insane or having mental illness.

[476] Which is very common in that culture.

[477] So the idea of going off with the fairies was almost like the nice way to put it.

[478] So she basically took probably a very painful, traumatic element of his life, threw it in his face and was like, this is why you're doing this to me. Also partly could be your mother had mental illness and there's a chance you have mental illness because what are you doing?

[479] Yeah.

[480] So, of course, her basically standing up to him and saying that, slapping him in the face with that, sends him into a fit of rage.

[481] He then orders weird, but he orders Bridget to eat three pieces of bread with jam.

[482] That has nothing to do with superstition or fairy folklore.

[483] It's just him asserting control over her.

[484] She senses this.

[485] She eats the first two pizzas.

[486] She hesitates on the third.

[487] and as she does, Michael throws her to the ground and says, if you won't take it, down you will go.

[488] Oh, Jesus fucking Christ.

[489] Yeah.

[490] So he forces the third piece of bread into her mouth, holding her down with his knee on her chest, and stripping her down to her underwear.

[491] So it's turned.

[492] It's no longer about the fairies.

[493] This is a person who, clearly this is an old story, so I don't know what kind of things were happening in there what I believe is like a seven, six -year marriage where he is having none of it from her anymore, it seems like, to the point of violence, to the point of feeling like he's justified in violence against his wife.

[494] She's struggling against him.

[495] He takes her head and slams it onto the ground.

[496] Then he grabs a candle and sets her, basically her clothes on fire.

[497] And some of the family members that are there, they beg Michael to stop Instead he takes a lamp He pours the paraffin oil all over her And in an instant she's enveloped in flames And he tells the horrified onlookers Not to mourn for her Because quote She's not my wife She's an old deceiver sent in place of my wife Holy shit Yes So he murders his wife in front of Her family members And then he picks up her charred lifeless body, wraps it in a sheet, slips it into a bag, and then he locks the family inside the cottage with her corpse while he goes out and digs a shallow grave in a bog about a quarter mile uphill from their home.

[498] So he comes back an hour later, wielding a knife.

[499] He uses it to threaten Bridget's cousin, Patrick Kennedy, and says, you have to come and help me bury her body.

[500] So then they do that, they come back to the cottage, and then Michael makes everyone that's there swear not to tell a soul what happened.

[501] Unfortunately, Bridget is known about town, probably well liked around town, because the next day, when they don't see her, they notice that she's missing, and they go report it to the police.

[502] And they have no idea what happened in that cottage.

[503] And at the same time, Jack Dunn, the cousin, who also wasn't there and doesn't know what has happened, he finds Michael, who is very upset and takes him to a nearby church.

[504] Michael's acting so strangely and crazily that he takes him to a church.

[505] He has him kneel at the altar so he can take the sacrament, but his behavior is erratic.

[506] He's sobbing.

[507] He's tearing his hair out, saying he needs to go to confession.

[508] But when the priest comes out, he pulls Jack aside and says, what's going on?

[509] Jack, who was not there for Bridget's murder explains Michael is claiming to have burned his wife to death and Jack has asked Michael to dig her up so that they can give her a proper burial.

[510] Like if that's true, we have to go find her so we can bury her properly.

[511] Michael refuses.

[512] Of course, the priest is like what is going on?

[513] He's totally overwhelmed.

[514] He thinks both of these men have lost it.

[515] So he goes to the police to report them.

[516] And when he does, he actually ends up giving the police their first meaningful lead in Bridget Clary's disappearance.

[517] So they go and begin questioning Bridget's family and friends, asking about Michael and his behavior of late, and eventually the details of the previous night emerge.

[518] And some of the family even tell police that in the wake of Bridget's murder, Michael contemplated either fleeing to another country or taking his own life to avoid prosecution.

[519] They also say, allegedly, he suggested the idea of claiming insanity, so he would get off for her murder.

[520] So is he crazy like Jack thinks he is?

[521] Or according to the family's story, it's a lot more sinister than that.

[522] Yeah.

[523] So that same night, March 16th, Michael walks back up to Kalanagrinah Hill, and he waits by the ferry fort for the real Bridget to return.

[524] Oh, geez.

[525] He's gotten rid of what he believes the fake Bridget.

[526] And so then he's saying he's convinced that the fairies will now release the real Bridget by tying her to a white horse and sending her back through the ferry fort.

[527] And he apparently stays up there for the next three nights watching the horizon for the coming of the white horse that will bring his real wife back home.

[528] I think this guy's lost the plot.

[529] I think he believes this stuff.

[530] It seems like he does.

[531] it's those other parts where it's like there's some planning where it's like it could be because it's very common to believe it.

[532] It's common to believe all this.

[533] So he could be believing it or he could be taking advantage of the fact that everybody else believes.

[534] Yeah, the fact that other men were involved in her quote unquote exorcism shows that it's not just him at all.

[535] Right.

[536] It's not a weird thing for five men to hold a woman down and make her drink milk.

[537] Yeah.

[538] So, of course, the White Horse never comes.

[539] And then on March 20th, which is four days later, the Royal Irish Constables find Michael Clary at the Ferry Fort.

[540] They place them under arrest.

[541] They also arrest the eight other people connected to Bridget's murder, most of them her own family members.

[542] Wow.

[543] So two days later, the police find the shallow grave that Michael dug in the bog, and they dig Bridget's body up.

[544] The burns on the lower half of her body leave her bones exposed.

[545] and the only clothing left on her is a stocking and one gold earring.

[546] Oh, my gosh.

[547] So the police place her body in a storage facility to use as evidence for the upcoming trial.

[548] A grand jury is held from April 1st to 6th in 1895, and in the end, five of the nine defendants are indicted for murder.

[549] Michael Clary, Patrick Boland, who is Bridget's father, Mary Kennedy, Bridget's aunt, James Kennedy, Bridget's cousin, and Patrick Kennedy, Bridget's other cousin.

[550] So this highly publicized trial begins July 3, 1895.

[551] And over the course of two days, the jury hears the eyewitness accounts, as well as the testimony from Michael himself, stating that he truly believed and seems to still believe that his wife has been taken by the fairies.

[552] The jury are shown Bridget's corpse, which not only confirms her identity, but gives them a full understanding of the horrific pain that she endured leading up to her death.

[553] On July 5th, the jury delivers the verdicts, and this whole case makes international headlines.

[554] This was big at the time.

[555] And of all those charged nine total people, they're all found guilty of wounding Bridget.

[556] As for the five defendants charged with her murder, the judge removes the murder charge altogether, given their apparent true belief in fairies, and instead Bridget's cousin, Patrick Kennedy, is sentenced to five years of penal servitude, which is forced manual labor, for helping bury her body, which he was threatened with the next.

[557] I don't know why that ended up that way.

[558] And then his brothers, the other Kennedy boys, are sentenced to 18 months of hard labor for restraining Bridget.

[559] Bridget's dad, Patrick Boland, is sentenced to six months of hard labor for his part in the exorcism, Mary Kennedy is led off the hook considering her age and the overall weak state of her physical health.

[560] So the bulk of the blame falls on Bridget's husband, Michael Cleary.

[561] So even though the murder charge itself is thrown out, he's convicted of manslaughter, and he's sentenced to 20 years penal servitude.

[562] He ends up serving 15.

[563] He's granted release on April 28, 1910, and he immediately moves to Liverpool and then emigrates to Canada.

[564] Wow.

[565] So by October of that same year, Michael Cleary has begun a new life for himself in Montreal and he's never heard from again.

[566] And he died in 1965.

[567] Okay.

[568] So he had a full life over there.

[569] Everyone's great grandpa who is from Montreal, check your records.

[570] Yeah.

[571] Do you know this Irishman?

[572] Oh my God.

[573] I hate that.

[574] It's awful in every way.

[575] So is it kind of extreme beliefs gone unchecked?

[576] It's definitely a horrible story of marital violence and not being able to handle your rage and the problems you're having in your household.

[577] But at the same time, this is really crazy.

[578] This case broke right in the middle of a national debate about self -governance.

[579] The UK's Liberal Party had been pushing for Irish home rule, which would have been a policy letting the citizens of a colony govern themselves.

[580] So Ireland being a quote -unquote colony of England, it was like, home rule, let's turn it back over.

[581] Yeah.

[582] The opposition, they use this crime as proof that the Irish can't govern themselves.

[583] Oh, wow.

[584] And they need a centralized body of government to look after them.

[585] Right, which we all know what that led to.

[586] And well, and also, it's that thing where this is a one -off, bizarre.

[587] case of very like it's a combination of things it's not easy to explain but it isn't what's happening all the time right of course and it is that kind of colonizer justification where you just take one bad example and then go this is why we should do whatever we want yeah totally also you know obviously another underlying issue here is that this story is a parallel to all the historical accounts of smart educated independent fiery women around the world who then are found guilty of witchcraft and burned at the stake.

[588] It's very similar.

[589] Right, totally.

[590] There are psychologists today who would suspect that Michael could have been the victim of a thing called Capgras syndrome, which is a state of psychosis in which a person thinks their loved one has been replaced by an imposter.

[591] That's a real thing.

[592] Really?

[593] I guess so.

[594] But if the claims around Michael's comments suggesting he pretend to be insane to get off or real, then it's possible, that he was just playing on local beliefs to cover his true intentions which were to punish control and ultimately kill a woman who would not submit to him.

[595] Right, totally.

[596] So we'll never know Michael's true motives for the killing of his wife, Bridget Clary, but her death does point to the dangers of unchecked belief systems, whether they're based in folklore or hard -lined gender roles, or a third thing that applies to you in modern life.

[597] And that is the story of the murder of Bridget Clary.

[598] Oh, my God.

[599] Wow, good job.

[600] Thank you.

[601] Great job telling that awful story.

[602] Yeah, thank you.

[603] Well, this, too, is about a strong, independent woman, but she uses her powers for evil.

[604] Oh.

[605] And it's a little known story of the origin of one of the most popular scam techniques in modern history.

[606] However, the name of the scheme isn't given until much later.

[607] However, I'm going to tell you about what's thought to be originator of this scheme.

[608] This is the invention and history of the Ponzi scheme.

[609] Yes, my favorite.

[610] So the main sources I used in today's story include an article from longreads .com by Rose Eveleth, a medium article by Ryan Fan, a piece from Smithsonian Magazine, by Mary Darby and all the other sources are listed in our show notes.

[611] So, Karen, what is a Ponzi scheme?

[612] Don't answer.

[613] Let me tell you.

[614] Wait, that's part of my story.

[615] Wait, wait.

[616] Don't tell me. Let me tell you, since you just said, I don't know.

[617] I don't know.

[618] Thank you.

[619] It's an investment scheme where the scammer promises to invest their victims money and give them big returns, of course.

[620] But instead of investing the money, the scammer just uses the money from new investors to pay the old investors.

[621] There is no investments.

[622] The money never actually grows.

[623] The scammer just attracts new investors by pointing to the old investors return as proof that their investments work.

[624] AKA crypto.

[625] That does come up a lot.

[626] But eventually the scammer hits a plateau and when they can no longer attract new investors, the whole thing implodes.

[627] Signs of a Ponzi scheme, everyone, check your life right now.

[628] Include outrageous problems.

[629] profit promises, sometimes as high as 50 to 100 percent return on investments, while keeping their investment strategies vague, as well as being encouraged to recruit more investors.

[630] So this is the scheme fraudster Bernie Madoff used to swindle a whopping $64 .8 billion from his victims in the early 2000s.

[631] Jesus.

[632] The largest Ponzi scheme pulled off to date.

[633] And I highly recommend the documentary on Netflix.

[634] It's called Madoff, the Monster of Wall Street.

[635] And they interview people who worked in his office for years and years and had no idea.

[636] He was just really good at what he did.

[637] Yeah.

[638] I mean, it's an incredible documentary.

[639] So today, Ponzi schemes exist in the form of pyramid schemes and multi -level marketing schemes, MLM, Facebook's favorite, where victims are convinced to buy inventory of a wonder product, sell it to their friends, neighbors, and acquaintances, and then recruit more salespeople to buy.

[640] out more of that inventory and peddle the product, which if you think about it, doesn't make any fucking sense for you to like have your friends sell to other people because then your sales are going to be shit, right?

[641] Well, especially if you all live in the same town, but you're all out there like, buy my crazy leggings.

[642] And it's like, no, yeah, we all have plenty.

[643] Like the Lula Row Company documentary Lula Rich.

[644] A great one.

[645] A great doc.

[646] But the most infamous example of a Ponzi scheme comes from the scheme's namesake Charles Ponsie.

[647] It's an actual person.

[648] Yeah.

[649] Just like the guy that invented the jacuzzi is a guy named, like, Chuck jacuzzi.

[650] I swear to God.

[651] I swear to God.

[652] Oh, my God.

[653] I love that.

[654] Oh, there's still jacuzis, like, out there of Mr. and Mrs. Jacozy?

[655] I bet there are.

[656] There's got to be.

[657] I love their work.

[658] Okay, so I'm not going to, this is a long story.

[659] I'm not going to get that into it.

[660] There are so many books you can read about it.

[661] But essentially, this dude, Charles Ponzi, is a get -rich -quick junkie.

[662] He's born on March 3rd, 1882 in Lugo, which is a town in North Italy.

[663] He comes from wealthy ancestors, but his family had fallen on hard times.

[664] So his immediate family, him as a child, they're actually broke.

[665] After failing out of college, his parents noticed that some of Charles' childhood friends, who didn't grow up rich, are going to America and making a good living there and then returning home to Italy with a lot of money.

[666] So they tell Charles to move to America and see if he can turn his life around there and help his family rise back up to their former wealthy status.

[667] He set sail for America in 1903 with his entire life savings, but, and this is just a clue to what kind of person he is with money, he gambles most of his life savings away during the journey.

[668] He's like plain cards, you know, backgammon.

[669] We've seen it on the Titanic movie.

[670] Yeah, for real.

[671] Also, that's the first time I ever went to Las Vegas with my friends when I first moved to L .A. Oh, no. We drove out to Las Vegas.

[672] I immediately lost $350 that, like, I didn't really have.

[673] Like, I needed to make rent later.

[674] And then I was just done and I was like, this was a terrible choice for me. I can't handle this.

[675] No. You lose your money immediately.

[676] I remember going once and had $80 to spend.

[677] And it was gone within minutes.

[678] Minutes.

[679] And then I was like, what am I going to do the rest of the time here?

[680] Yes, exactly.

[681] And I'm, like, depressed because I'm very.

[682] broke.

[683] Not good.

[684] Yeah.

[685] So that's the kind of person he was.

[686] I mean, yeah, he was a teenager or like he was very young, too.

[687] So then he lands in Boston on November 15th, 1903.

[688] He's got just $2 .50 to his name.

[689] Do you want to guess how much that is in today's money?

[690] In today's money, I guess that that would be...

[691] 1903, he's got $2 .50.

[692] Is that $200?

[693] 81.

[694] Oh.

[695] Yeah, but shit costs so much less then, right?

[696] A quarter for a fucking, you know, hotel room.

[697] Everything's a quarter.

[698] Everything's a nickel.

[699] A nickel.

[700] He spends the next four years traveling up and down the East Coast, working odd jobs, seeing no real success.

[701] So then he goes to Montreal, Quebec.

[702] Oh, Montreal again.

[703] Canada.

[704] Oh, that's right.

[705] Tries his luck there.

[706] But he's in and out of jail for schemes, both in Canada and America.

[707] Finally, he settles on the perfect scheme in August of 1919.

[708] I'm not going to get into that either because it's complicated and I don't totally understand it, and it's a little boring.

[709] But basically it involves purchasing postage from countries, from other countries that have a weak currency and then selling them in the U .S. where the U .S. dollar is stronger.

[710] So you can get more from them.

[711] It's still a job.

[712] That's the thing I always think is so funny about some of these scams.

[713] Or it's like, if you were trying this hard to do stuff at a regular job, you would just be a successful citizen.

[714] Right.

[715] But you're working really hard to rip people.

[716] You're working really hard to go to jail.

[717] Right.

[718] Right.

[719] Like, work just as hard to not go to jail as you're saying.

[720] Yeah.

[721] Give it a world.

[722] I don't know.

[723] He can't hear me. By June 1920, by promising investors 50 % interest in 45 days, which is like run.

[724] His investments total 2 .5 million.

[725] You want to guess how much that is in 1920?

[726] Oh, that wasn't the modern day thing.

[727] No, he has collected from investors, meaning like other poor Italians and their friends and their friends.

[728] I think the stamp scam.

[729] was originally an actual thing, but now it's just taking money from people.

[730] So 2 .5 million by June of 1920, like a year after he started.

[731] Is it like a hundred million?

[732] 37 million.

[733] God damn.

[734] I'm way off on my numbers these days.

[735] I think you have one more chance.

[736] You have a couple more chances, so, you know, sharpen your...

[737] I'm going to do the exact same mistake the same way every time.

[738] It's just like I want it to be more money.

[739] And I kind of thinking like, It's going to be my money somehow if I get it right.

[740] Well, when someone says to you, like, guess how much it is in today's money?

[741] You have to think the biggest number is possible.

[742] Right.

[743] It's not a time to be reasonable.

[744] Not on this podcast.

[745] This is the price is right, baby.

[746] It's fun times.

[747] That's right.

[748] So by July 1920, his fake company called the Securities Exchange Company is receiving about a million dollars a day in investments.

[749] So he's doing really well, but eventually he gets caught when the Boston Post run several articles exposing Charles as a fraudster, which makes everyone withdraw their investments.

[750] The investors only receive about 30 cents on the dollar back, which is, like, devastating, with their combined losses totaling about $20 million.

[751] He scammed people at $20 million, which in today's money.

[752] $150 million?

[753] $207 million.

[754] I went under that time.

[755] I know.

[756] $207 million.

[757] From people that he, like, just...

[758] figured out on his own.

[759] Dang.

[760] No internet, nothing.

[761] Charles surrenders himself to police before he can be arrested, and in all, they charge him with 86 counts of mail fraud for lying to his victims about earning interest.

[762] So there's a bunch of books about Charles Ponzi, if you want the whole story.

[763] But even though it bears his name, Charles Ponzi is not actually the first person to pull off such a scheme.

[764] That credit, at least in America, goes to a woman by the name of Sarah Howe.

[765] So now I'm going to tell you about Sarah Howe.

[766] Okay.

[767] That's what the story is about.

[768] Having successfully flown under the radar for many years, very little is actually known about Sarah Howe's personal life.

[769] There's no existing photographs or sketches of her.

[770] Her parents' name are speculative at best.

[771] And while most articles report her having been 53 years old at the time of her establishing her company, which is called the Ladies Depot, the Lady's Deposit.

[772] Nope.

[773] The Lady's Deposit.

[774] The lady's deposit.

[775] Yeah.

[776] Her birth year is debated anywhere from 1820 to 1827.

[777] According to the Boston Herald, Sarah was born in Providence, Rhode Island, but again, we don't know for sure.

[778] What we do, though, is that she had three failed marriages, and by 1877, is living on her own and posing as a fortune teller to earn a living, which is like a scheme in itself you could say, maybe, to some people.

[779] Absolutely.

[780] Do you believe in people who, like, any fortune?

[781] I think there are people who have it.

[782] I think there's way more people who make a business out of it that are just good at bullshitting.

[783] I told you the story of my sister going to, it was like a friend they were bringing in a psychic just into the house.

[784] And it was like 10 people.

[785] There was like a certain amount of people invited.

[786] It couldn't be any more than that.

[787] And somebody dropped out at the last minute.

[788] So the friend invited my sister, who is the biggest no thanks of like human no thanks.

[789] And immediately the person goes, does anybody here know someone named Kathleen?

[790] And my aunt Kathleen had just died.

[791] So everyone looks at my sister because they know that.

[792] So my sister's like, uh, me. And she's like, she needs you to know.

[793] She's saying something about gluten.

[794] She's just saying, be careful of gluten.

[795] And my niece turned out to have psiliac's disease.

[796] Jesus, that's.

[797] That is wild.

[798] And it was, like, diagnosed eight years later.

[799] And I always, like, it stuck in my head because I was like, I think I should stop eating gluten.

[800] And, like, that seems like it would be on point for us.

[801] And then it's like my aunt who was so like that coming through the ether being like, don't feed that baby anymore.

[802] She got to heaven and was all knowing and was like, I know.

[803] You have to, oh, my God, be careful.

[804] It was just the funniest.

[805] So, like, to me, I feel like there's things like that were like, if that guy just randomly picked that.

[806] Yeah.

[807] What an amazing coincidence that's astronomical.

[808] But I don't think it was random.

[809] I think there's people who are definitely tapped in.

[810] Intuitive, tapped in.

[811] My cousin, Dr. Wendy Huck, she's a grief counselor, but she also used to do past life readings.

[812] And hypnotism, she did it to me, and she can sense otherworldly.

[813] I promise she's not bullshitting.

[814] She's like amazing.

[815] Anyway, yeah.

[816] I'm open to all of it.

[817] I mean, obviously, you don't want to be like, go into the world of conspiracy and then start living your life by it.

[818] But at the same time, you're like, it's possible that we're not paying attention fully.

[819] Sure.

[820] Like, be open to the idea.

[821] Yeah, I like that.

[822] But don't give anybody in your money.

[823] No, don't give anyone your money.

[824] The 1870s are a period of rapid growth in America, as you Karen, a historian now.

[825] Turn of the century.

[826] As the country tries to rebuild itself after the war, industrial developments are creating lots of wealth and opportunity, mostly for white men, of course.

[827] Yeah.

[828] So then the country attracts more immigrants, which then prompts rapid city growth and urbanization.

[829] Landmark inventions at this time include Alexander Graham Bell's telephone in 1876 and Thomas Edison's lightbulb in 1879.

[830] So just like shit is happening.

[831] It's like the late 90s with tech is happening here with life.

[832] But light bulbs.

[833] Yeah, exactly.

[834] The increased cash flow in America leads to a boom in banking and such a boom, in fact, that proper regulations haven't even been set yet.

[835] So it's the wild west of banking.

[836] It's the perfect storm conditions for a savvy single working woman like Sarah Howe to take advantage of and open her own, quote, banking operation.

[837] So Sarah being a very astute observer, sees that the banks are underserving a key demographic, her own community of what are called unprotected females.

[838] And we talked about this recently, how women couldn't get a bank account without their father or husband's okay until like recently.

[839] Yes.

[840] So back then, of course, there are these single women who, having no husband, father, or other male figure to look after them have to make their own money.

[841] Because these women don't typically make that much money and don't have that much money, most banks won't even waste their time accepting their cash deposits.

[842] So they get turned away because of that.

[843] And that's where Sarah comes in with her new business.

[844] It's the ladies deposit company, which she opens in March or April of 18, And here's how it works.

[845] Catering solely to unprotected women, these clients can come in with any size deposit.

[846] No deposit is too small.

[847] And Sarah guarantees them an 8 % interest rate per month.

[848] Again, if you hear that from someone, run.

[849] That is a lot of interest.

[850] Too good to be true is too good to be true.

[851] That's very true.

[852] So any woman depositing $100, Sarah says, will earn another $96 in interest over one year's time.

[853] Imagine that.

[854] How was she able to promise such high interest rates?

[855] Well, according to her business pitch, the ladies' deposit isn't a regular bank.

[856] It's a charity backed by Quaker philanthropists.

[857] Oh.

[858] Wow.

[859] She's pulling the Quakers into it.

[860] Yeah.

[861] Not cool.

[862] Her goal, she claims, is not just to make money, but to provide charitable boosts to women in need so that they can comfortably stand on their own two feet.

[863] She's only good.

[864] How could you ever even look into this and the percentage rate?

[865] Because she's so great.

[866] She is great.

[867] She wants to serve what she calls her, quote, overworked, ill -paid sisterhood.

[868] Which, like, in theory, great.

[869] Even the office decor makes it feel like the perfect atmosphere for its target market, complete with silk furniture, warm, inviting carpeting, and classy, delicate touches.

[870] The whole place feels like an exclusive yet welcoming ladies -only club.

[871] To add to the insiders -only vibes So her wastes no time and energy on advertising.

[872] She's like, fuck that shit.

[873] Instead, knowledge of her bank is spread by word of mouth only, meaning people are like, have you heard of this?

[874] No, I haven't heard of it, which is you trust your friend who's telling you about it, right?

[875] Right.

[876] And they say that was the thing that made Bernie Madoff's successful, is that it was like one rich person letting another rich person in on a secret.

[877] Yeah.

[878] It's like friends and family only.

[879] Yeah.

[880] Which, of course, you'd trust, right?

[881] Yeah.

[882] It's crazy.

[883] And as more and more women who are like teachers, widows, and maids, so like, you know, just regular working class women, as they learn about ladies deposit, the cash starts really rolling in so much so that Sarah decides to make depositing even more worth her new customers while.

[884] Act now, she says, and you can get your first three months of interest in advance.

[885] So you're getting that 8%.

[886] Wow.

[887] Yeah.

[888] First three months, and that's interest 90s.

[889] $6 a year.

[890] That's a good chunk of money that she's promising up front.

[891] So it's 8 % of whatever you deposit up front, which you're probably just going to put back into the bank anyways because you don't want to have that cash laying around at home.

[892] So it's just even bigger scam.

[893] Yeah.

[894] Soon, Sarah rakes in as much as $500 ,000 from over $1 ,200 ,000.

[895] You want $500 ,000.

[896] In the late 1870s, early 80s, $500 ,000.

[897] $200 ,000.

[898] $200 ,000.

[899] $500 ,000.

[900] No, no, I mean, is the number.

[901] Oh.

[902] That was my guess.

[903] 15 million.

[904] It's 15 million?

[905] She got 15 million dollars in the beginning.

[906] Her investors come from all over, and she opens a second bank in New Bedford, Massachusetts, with plans to expand even further as word spreads.

[907] The public is left unfounded that someone from such me or means could build an empire of wealth, especially a woman, they think.

[908] A woman?

[909] That's crazy.

[910] She doesn't even understand money.

[911] Right.

[912] Math.

[913] So all the local Boston papers are, of course, eager to cover the story.

[914] So they come to visit Sarah's bank.

[915] But because all the reporters are men, they're turned away before even getting to come into the lobby.

[916] Like, no men are allowed, which is fucking great.

[917] No men are allowed or able to investigate what's happening here.

[918] So they're skeptical about being barred entry and determined to get to the bottom of Sarah.

[919] operations, one reporter from the Boston Herald dresses up as a woman.

[920] And it must be convincing because he gains entry as a woman.

[921] He was like Dave Foley in the kids in the hall where you're like, that is a woman.

[922] Yeah, I buy it.

[923] Posing as a prospective investor, the reporter is surprised to find that the bank, quote, never discloses the methods by which we do business.

[924] So they don't fucking tell anyone, anything.

[925] And this is, this sets off alarm bells for the reporter.

[926] He publishes his article in the Boston Herald accusing Sarah Howe of defrauding her customers on January 8th, 1880.

[927] And see, this is where it bothers me, because Charles Ponzi originally had an article written about him in the post, lauding him about how amazing he was and like what a great investor he was, which made him get more investors until someone wrote a negative article about him because they realized what he was doing, like they sussed him out.

[928] But this person doesn't even know if she's in what she's doing wrong and immediately writes a negative article that she must be frauding people because, listen, she did end up being a fraudster, but he didn't know that then, and that bothers them.

[929] Right.

[930] You know?

[931] Because this is what brought it all down, crashing down, is this one uninformed article that she's fucking everyone over.

[932] Yeah.

[933] So he says that she gets a chance to defend herself.

[934] So for like eight more months, she's allowed to continue until September 25th, 1880, another publication called the Boston Daily Advertiser picks up where the Herald left off and again puts out several stories explaining Sarah's schemes in greater detail.

[935] So not only did the daily advertiser attacked Sarah's business, but it attacked Sarah to figuring it'd be hard to paint a woman as anything other than a victim because ladies at the time are just seen as frail and helpless.

[936] The reporters at the daily advertisers conclude that they also have to paint Sarah as a vulgar, ugly woman to make people believe she could be villainous.

[937] because they wouldn't believe she was a bad person if she also wasn't like a witch.

[938] You know what I mean?

[939] Yeah, you have two choices.

[940] You can be pretty and useless or you're ugly and the worst.

[941] Right.

[942] What a time.

[943] Sadly, their strategy is effective.

[944] Reporters make up lies about Sarah being cross -eyed and, quote, deaf as a post.

[945] Or as an article in Bankers Magazine describes her, quote, short, fat, very ugly, and so illiterate as to be unable to write an English sentence or to speak without making shameful blunders.

[946] With that, the public quickly turns on her.

[947] Investors show up to the ladies' deposit, demanding their money back.

[948] Of course, Sarah doesn't have enough to pay out their full principal interest, let alone the interest, and they should have accrued.

[949] So women who invested their entire life savings go bankrupt.

[950] Yeah.

[951] So when I was defending her earlier, she actually was a bad person.

[952] Well, it's nuanced.

[953] It's nuanced because there was.

[954] sexism that's fucked up.

[955] And then also, it worked on one lady that may have deserved it.

[956] Right.

[957] Some even describe having taken mortgages out on their furniture, causing them to lose their beds, their chairs and couches, all their furniture because of Sarah's scheme.

[958] The press shows some sympathy for these women, but their ultimate takeaway, of course, is that this is why women can't be trusted with money and shouldn't be on their own.

[959] Yeah.

[960] The empowering message that Sarah fed her victims about uplifting her sisterhood turns out to be nothing but a fraudulent line that completely backfires on the women who trusted her.

[961] On October 14th, 1880, two weeks and five days after the release of the Boston Daily Advertisers' first piece on the lady's deposit, Sarah is arrested.

[962] She stands trial and somehow dodges conviction on the fraud charges but is found guilty of soliciting money under false pretenses since she lied and said the Quaker philanthropists, them again, were funding the interest payments because the quakers were like, we've never, we don't know who this person is.

[963] This is not our bag at all.

[964] Right.

[965] She's sentenced to three years in prison and serves all of it and it was released in 1884.

[966] But as soon as Sarah is out of prison, this chick can't stop scheming.

[967] Yeah.

[968] She rolls up her sleeves and tries running the same scam again under.

[969] Oh, same thing.

[970] Same.

[971] Under the new moniker, the women's bank, Sarah promises a still high interest rate to her investors, though not 8%.

[972] That was too high.

[973] So now it's 7%.

[974] Oh, okay.

[975] Yeah.

[976] Much more reasonable.

[977] She collects about $50 ,000 in investments before being caught and shut down in April 1887, but she manages to run away to Chicago before she can be indicted.

[978] So something's working for her.

[979] Yeah, she's a step ahead.

[980] And people keep wanting to give her money, which makes me wonder what she was like in person, you know?

[981] Like probably charismatic sociopath.

[982] She's one of those people that's like, I got to win.

[983] It's all me. Let's do this thing.

[984] I'll take down my fellow woman.

[985] She believed her on bullshit probably too, right?

[986] Yeah, I think you'd have to, right, in a way.

[987] But then also there's that kind of, I know I've told you this story multiple times.

[988] There was a time one time when I was working in an office building and a guy, just a random guy, walked into my office and was like, hey, and started selling me, I believe it was like, it was a subscription to like spa appointment.

[989] Yes, I know those subscriptions.

[990] He was cute and he leaned down by my desk and started talking, and I literally was writing a check within two minutes and like, great, amazing.

[991] And then he walked out of the room and I turned and called my bank and said, I don't know what just happened, but I just wrote a check to a stranger.

[992] Like the weird, I just did the weirdest thing and you have to cancel this check.

[993] I don't know what I was doing.

[994] And it was like, it felt like being caught up in a wave.

[995] It was like his personality, the way we were immediately interacting.

[996] It was wild.

[997] It was like totally insane.

[998] Did they cancel the check?

[999] Can you do that?

[1000] Oh, yeah.

[1001] Yeah, yeah.

[1002] Wow.

[1003] Did you get the spa services at least?

[1004] No. I mean, it was such a weird, I think it was the beginning of internet stuff.

[1005] I remember that.

[1006] Like, Third Street Promenade, you'd walk around and they'd be these like cute girls with clipboards.

[1007] They'd be like, the spa down the street is having this great offer.

[1008] And I totally remember that.

[1009] Yeah, like sign up for 10, give us the money now.

[1010] And you can get those.

[1011] later where it's like, are you sure?

[1012] Like, will the spa still be in business?

[1013] Right.

[1014] Does it exist now?

[1015] Oh my God.

[1016] But I think those people, I think there's like really something to be said for when you meet a standout person like that that's like locked eyes with you and is convincing you of all these things, all the things you've ever wanted to believe, like you're going to get money, you're going to get spa treatments, whatever it is.

[1017] Like, it's easy to believe people like that.

[1018] Well, I think there's something you said once that really stuck with me that I like to think of.

[1019] which is just to slow down.

[1020] When someone's coming at you full force with their emergency or with their great idea or with this plan or this deal, like you get caught up in that fast talking, that fast pace too and you're not thinking straight.

[1021] Like you're allowed to not respond right or way.

[1022] You're allowed to sit back and have a moment to think about it.

[1023] Let your brain catch up with what their brain is trying to do to you.

[1024] Yes.

[1025] There's no schedule.

[1026] There's no real schedule that you have to adhere to with a stranger walking up.

[1027] you or like a person that's got you on the phone.

[1028] That's the way they keep getting old people with this AI voice generated tricks on the phone where it's like they're like, oh, no, no, you have to do it right now because you need to bail them out of jail.

[1029] And like people are like, oh no, it's an emergency.

[1030] And it's like any emergency you can hang up and call back or vice versa.

[1031] Call your bank.

[1032] Yeah, exactly.

[1033] You can take three minutes.

[1034] Someone else's emergency is not your emergency unless there's a fire.

[1035] And also it shouldn't be assumed that it's your emergency.

[1036] Make then prove it is an emergency.

[1037] Totally.

[1038] Totally.

[1039] Unless you can see flames, and then it is an emergency.

[1040] Right, right.

[1041] Okay, she tries the same scam in Chicago, this time calling it ladies, Provident Aid.

[1042] This goes under much quicker.

[1043] And with nowhere else to go, Sarah returns to Boston, where she's promptly arrested in December of 1888 for that other scheme.

[1044] However, because her victims do not want to testify in court, I'm sure they're embarrassed.

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] The case against her has dropped, and she's released just a few months later in March 1889.

[1047] And with that, Sarah Howe finally gives up the bank fraud game altogether and goes back to telling fortunes on the street.

[1048] Maybe it's still a scam, maybe not.

[1049] Who knows?

[1050] What if she was, like, legitimately psychic this whole time?

[1051] And denying it?

[1052] Denying her true self?

[1053] And just was like, I want to try something else where she could have made a lot of money off of that.

[1054] If she was a real psychic, it would have helped her in scheming people.

[1055] And she would have had a little more vision about it instead of like, Eight percent, everybody.

[1056] So she keeps this up until her dying day, January 26, 1892.

[1057] That's the story of scammers Charles Ponzi and Sarah Howe.

[1058] Amazing.

[1059] I love scamming stories.

[1060] I love origin, like criminal origin name stories.

[1061] You know what I mean?

[1062] Yes.

[1063] Well, and also it's like it is kind of to Charles Ponzi and Sarah Howe's credit where it's like this is a thing that's going on to this.

[1064] day.

[1065] It's a hundred at least, how many hundred of years in the future?

[1066] A hundred and, yeah, around that, 150, let's say, in today's years.

[1067] They thought of something that stuck.

[1068] And it worked for both of them for a while.

[1069] They just like got too caught up in it or, you know.

[1070] It's worked for a lot of people.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] It's quite a system.

[1074] Which is why I got to keep your eyes out for those schemes.

[1075] Yes, for sure.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] Well, great job.

[1078] Thank you.

[1079] Thank you for keeping your eyes out for this podcast and listening with your ears.

[1080] Oh, yeah.

[1081] The ears are crucial.

[1082] We love you.

[1083] And we'll call you next week.

[1084] Sincerely, stay sexy.

[1085] And don't get murdered.

[1086] Goodbye.

[1087] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1088] This has been an exactly right production.

[1089] is Alejandra Keck.

[1090] Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[1091] Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[1092] This episode was mixed by Liana Squalache.

[1093] Our researchers are Marin McClashen and Ali Elkin.

[1094] Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1095] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1096] Goodbye.