Trapped in Syria, Part 2: A Plea to Parliament

[0] All of a sudden, US troops left their observation posts along the Syrian border after the White House said it wouldn't stand in the way of a Turkish invasion.

[1] Turkey has confirmed that its ground forces are on the move after launching an aerial attack overnight.

[2] It comes after the abrupt US pullout from the area.

[3] Turkey has released video of its fighter jets bombing Kurdish positions as the nation presses ahead with its invasion.

[4] The best time to get these 66, women and children out of Yale Hall camp was before the Turkish invasion.

[5] The government had little appetite, I must say, to get these people out of Syria before the invasion.

[6] And I don't detect a great appetite now, and it's certainly now a lot more complicated.

[7] Now their future looks really, really uncertain.

[8] And if they do get out, perhaps too...

[9] Yesterday on the Daily, we met Kamal Debussy, who for months has been lobbying the Australian government to bring back his daughter and grandchildren who were being held at a detention center in Syria for the relatives of ISIS fighters.

[10] When we left off, Kamal had just received a call from a journalist that President Trump had just announced he would withdraw U .S. troops from the Syrian border, and it was expected that the Kurdish forces who had been guarding the prisons as allies of the U .S. would abandon their post.

[11] hosts, leaving the prisoners' lives in imminent danger.

[12] Today, my colleague Livia Albeck -Ripka follows Kamal's journey to convince the Australian government that that danger is greater than the one posed by bringing his daughter home.

[13] It's Tuesday, October 22nd.

[14] So Kamal has a little cry in the car.

[15] He gathers his thoughts, and then he...

[16] Pretty much immediately springs into action.

[17] About 25 minutes later, he calls this journalist back.

[18] He gives them a quote.

[19] Another 20 minutes pass.

[20] Another call from the media.

[21] Then other people start doing interviews.

[22] We don't want people coming back, having the skills in bomb making and terrorist activity, to commit an atrocity in our country.

[23] Conservatives in the country start talking, saying...

[24] Australians don't want them back in the country.

[25] They don't trust them, they don't believe them.

[26] No way.

[27] we cannot bring these women and children back.

[28] It's too dangerous for us to send people in there to get them out.

[29] That option went.

[30] As soon as the US president said we're removing the troops, that option was off the table.

[31] You want to go up there and have this hatred towards Western society and this ideology, we're not going to just turn around and say, oh, come on back down to Australia.

[32] We're going to look after you.

[33] Sorry, no, I won't.

[34] So Kamal does another interview in response to that.

[35] Please Save Our Children.

[36] That's the plea from a spokesman for the 65 Australians detained.

[37] in the Al Hul camp in northeastern Syria.

[38] And he does oppressor.

[39] These are Australian lives.

[40] We're talking about 44 children.

[41] We're talking about 46 children by some accounts.

[42] It's just one interview after the other.

[43] Please make them safe.

[44] After the other.

[45] Make them safe.

[46] If you have to assess them anywhere, assess them anywhere around the globe that you need to, but make them safe.

[47] Kamal DeBusi, thank you very much for talking to A &M this morning.

[48] Thank you.

[49] And it's from here that he makes a plan to drive to Canberra.

[50] At this point, the government still hasn't really acknowledged him or the other families.

[51] And so he decides he's going to physically take himself there and meet with as many politicians as he can to lobby to make a final push in what he believes is this closing window to get his daughter home.

[52] Sorry, I'm a little late.

[53] How are you going?

[54] I did make it.

[55] I think there was a marathon on in my So I meet Kamal at his cousin's house in Melbourne.

[56] Then we get on the road, and we've got this six and a half, seven -hour drive ahead of us.

[57] You're so comfortable.

[58] I should have warned you one thing about traveling with me. You have to put up with my music, whatever it is.

[59] Oh, what's your musical?

[60] It's very, it's very sort of late 70s, 80s, not much of the 90s.

[61] Actually, where?

[62] Here we go.

[63] So, in a lot of ways, it feels like a normal road trip.

[64] Al -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a.

[65] Sorry, Habi -a, I didn't have time.

[66] But a lot of the time, he's fielding calls.

[67] From the other families who are worried about the women and children.

[68] Did it?

[69] I've tried to speak to confirm.

[70] I've not been able to get through at all.

[71] Did you get a message, did you?

[72] Yeah, I've got a message, you.

[73] From the attorney for the families, who wants to discuss their strategy.

[74] Are you ready to whoever?

[75] Yes, sure.

[76] And more calls from the media.

[77] He's also hearing from the young women themselves.

[78] How are you?

[79] I'm so scared.

[80] Oh, my God.

[81] I don't know how much longer I can do this for.

[82] They're messaging him, frantic, for information.

[83] The news is developing fast, and there are all kinds of reports flying around.

[84] Most of it sounds very bad.

[85] Hello?

[86] There are rumours that food and water will be cut off from the camps that ISIS fighters could escape and attack the women.

[87] We're just laying in our tents.

[88] I'm going to send you a photo.

[89] All the kids are laying down, made them lay down so the booths don't reach them.

[90] So the women are naturally terrified.

[91] Kamal is receiving these texts.

[92] They killed a few women and they're also injured a few women today.

[93] We're going to die.

[94] We don't deserve this.

[95] We need a second chance.

[96] Please let somebody know.

[97] And the women in the camps are, also texting and trying to get through to their families, who then called Kamal for clarification.

[98] Did it?

[99] I've tried to speak to confirm, I've not been able to get through at all.

[100] Did you get a message?

[101] Did you?

[102] Yeah, I've got a message, you all over.

[103] So, the whole thing is kind of like this game of broken telephone and Kamal is like the operator.

[104] This is an issue more for the Melbourne families than the Sydney families.

[105] Okay.

[106] So not to worry too much for the Sydney families.

[107] But I will let you know assuaging people.

[108] Okay.

[109] Also, do we, have you heard anything from the government in this regard or are we going to wait for the meeting to occur?

[110] We have to wait and see.

[111] But, you know, we are in there and we are fighting.

[112] We've got national coverage now on this.

[113] Yeah.

[114] I think we've done, you know, I don't think in the short term there's anything more that we can do.

[115] I think it's about, I think it's just holding our breath really for this week.

[116] Yeah, yeah, faithful.

[117] But the one person who he wants to reach most, his own daughter Mariam, isn't answering.

[118] Okay.

[119] I'll try again and now it's time with Mariam.

[120] Finally, somebody picks up the phone.

[121] You can hear a woman's voice kind of yelling and then the call cuts out.

[122] Kamal maintains his calm.

[123] I think about Victorian roads They're relatively straight We have normal conversations He's singing along to the music And I'll take you a bet You're going to bring Because I'm the best it's ever been And as we get closer to Canberra He says Does it feel like a pivotal moment I don't want to let myself feel that I don't want to build the expectations Yeah He's trying to manage his expectations about what he'll be able to achieve with these lawmakers.

[124] But he's also allowing himself to imagine this future in which Mariam is home.

[125] I'm immensely looking forward to having her back.

[126] I think that I need to check myself because the girl that I'm married and the girl that left is different to the girl that's coming back.

[127] And I need to remind myself of that.

[128] and I don't know what to expect when she gets back, really, and as far as the details go.

[129] And I think I've seen it too many times, so people expect that old relationship to return or that old person to return, that may be an expectation I don't want to place on the relationship.

[130] It's going to be a remapping, and it's going to be a new relationship, and it's going to be a new woman, and it has to, you know, there's going to be a new woman.

[131] to be a lot of healing that has to happen and that has to happen without the expectation of what I think the relationship needs to look like.

[132] I don't know if that makes sense.

[133] She just needs to heal and then I need to map the relationship with her and it's got to be one that's two adults back in the relationship.

[134] It's just terribly complex as to what's going to happen next.

[135] So after seven hours on the road, we make it.

[136] We get to Canberra.

[137] We check into our hotel.

[138] Good night.

[139] Thanks.

[140] Get some rest.

[141] we say our good nights and get to bed.

[142] But at some point in the night after we go to sleep, there's this news.

[143] The Kurds have struck a deal with Syria, with the Assad regime.

[144] And the women fear the worst, that its troops could take over the camp, raping them, turning them into slaves, or worse.

[145] Hi, this is an Australian in the camps.

[146] We just got news that the Kurds have allied with the regime.

[147] The women are sending Kamal, frantic voice memos, from the camp.

[148] One of their deals is to give us women ISIS prisoners and women and children from the camps to Boschard and to transfer us to Damascus.

[149] This is not what we deserve We're scared We need help We really need urgent help The majority of these kids Our little babies We don't want them to be raised in regime prisons At least our kids At least our children They don't deserve to see this They don't deserve to see this Please Please please before it's too late Within the next few days this is going to happen, please, please help us.

[150] I know nobody can really come here and help us, but somebody needs to say something, somebody needs to do something.

[151] I don't want to be forgotten.

[152] I don't want to be ignored from the world.

[153] I don't want my kids to be ignored from the world.

[154] Please, please, please.

[155] Please just save us from here.

[156] The Kurds did a deal with the Syrian government to fend off.

[157] off a Turkish offensive.

[158] They say they had to choose between compromise and genocide.

[159] The next day, we wake up to the news that the Kurds have formed a deal with Syria.

[160] 200 ,000 people have fled their homes.

[161] Which, for Kamal, is a horrendous thought.

[162] He thinks that if the Syrians take over the camps, the women are as good as dead.

[163] In fact, he says death would be the more merciful option.

[164] So when Kamal shows up in Parliament that day He is on a mission We're just walking through the press gallery In Canberra in Parliament You can see all the different National media outlets Channel 10, ABC, SBS We're heading into an interview Where Kamal's going to be interviewed by Channel 7 You should be able to hear it channel Hello there Is it right, yes Hi Kamau it's Ray from Channel 7 Hagan I'm good, thank you, right?

[165] That's good.

[166] I just, obviously, this story is huge.

[167] Media at asking him the same questions over and over again.

[168] And what's her name?

[169] Mariam?

[170] Mariam DeBusey.

[171] What's your message to our government about your Australian daughter who's stuck in a detention camp for a moment?

[172] Well, it's not only for me as Kamal gives these interviews over and over and over and over.

[173] He is actually wearing down.

[174] He's getting sick.

[175] But he can't let himself stop.

[176] He'll talk to anybody.

[177] We've had spread of contact.

[178] Phones are a difficult issue, but there are some central places where you can buy time.

[179] But of course, the real reason that Kamal came here is to talk to the politicians.

[180] The lawmakers who will ultimately decide the fate of these women and children.

[181] And so he has meetings lined up with any of them who will listen.

[182] Heading on in to speak with Christina Caneli, who's the shadow minister of whom affairs.

[183] Just I'm knocking on the door now.

[184] Here we are.

[185] Thanks so much.

[186] Maybe ours.

[187] Do you think there's a chance to let me know?

[188] No, not this man. Okay.

[189] All right.

[190] Okay.

[191] Okay.

[192] All right.

[193] Catch you after.

[194] Thanks.

[195] Nice to mention it.

[196] I'm following him as best I can, but a lot of it is behind closed doors.

[197] And from what you can tell, what's the reception that Kamala's getting?

[198] It's not a very favourable one.

[199] Australia has a conservative government, and a lot of the comments that these lawmakers are making indicate that they are really opposed to bringing these women home.

[200] There's one man in particular, the Home Affairs Minister, Peter Dutton, who is especially outspoken.

[201] He's saying things like, based on the evidence that he has received, some of these women could be capable of making bombs or even unleashing what he describes as a mass casualty.

[202] Kamal says that, based on what he knows of these women, they weren't fighters.

[203] He describes them as baby -making machines.

[204] He talks about this one girl in particular who went into Syria at 15, and by 19, she has three children.

[205] So this leads him to believe that, you know, it's very possible a lot of these women were coerced.

[206] They were forced, including his own daughter.

[207] In all the years that Mariam was with ISIS, Kamel didn't quite know what to think about what had happened, about how much had been her own choice.

[208] But that day in the camp, when he sees her after all that time, he finally gets to ask.

[209] her and she told him a story that when she and her husband colored had gone to Turkey to stay with his family back in 2015 that after a few months he told her and the rest of the family that they needed to go to the Syrian border to rescue a relative who had joined ISIS but now wanted out and Mariam says when they get there all of a sudden gunshots are ringing in the air, everybody's running, there's mayhem, and then she's forced at gunpoint with her child into a car which takes them across the border into Syria.

[210] And it's not until Mariam sees this ISIS flag flying from this halfway house that she understands what has happened to her.

[211] And Kamal believes his daughter.

[212] Do you think that, do you see Mariam in this purely as a victim or do you think she may have made some choices herself mariam's choices have been to survive i see it purely as a victim and everything that comes from then has been just to survive i don't see her as as a perpetrator at all she is a victim and any decision she's made has been solid to survive and for the best interests of her kids um and and and and i firmly believe that i'm sorry to belabor this point but i have to ask you know these women are Australian women they grew up in a Western country with Western values.

[213] And the idea that they were forced, tricked, duped, that they had no agency whatsoever, I can see why that might be a hard pill for some people in the Australian public to swallow.

[214] Because what does that say about women?

[215] From the Australian context, I think if you are raised as an Anglo in an Anglo community, for most of your life, one might say, I find this hard to believe.

[216] But then I've also had people come and tell me, you know, if my husband said, let's go for a holiday or my husband told me, we're going to go and do this great humanitarian act of trying to save a family member from a terrible regime, I would be there backing him up 100 % and I would be supporting him all the way.

[217] So I do get a mixture of views from the public to say that putting myself in those shoes in Mariam's shoes they actually would have supported their husband and most of the women that made those choices to go went because they were trying to protect their family unit and in a culturally this is raised as the most important thing in your life your family your family your family you do whatever you can to save your family unit and that is the that is the that's sort of the number one cultural value that persists within the Muslim community that family unit is so important.

[218] So even if your husband's made a mistake, you still support your husband, even if he's made a mistake.

[219] And that's the culture that women raised in predominantly.

[220] But you didn't raise Mariam like that.

[221] No, that's why he had the trigger to go across the border.

[222] Marion would never have agreed to that.

[223] But she wanted family.

[224] So she probably would have, even if she'd had a warning sign, she probably would have dismissed it in her brain because she actually wanted family so much as well.

[225] So yes, she was independent and yes, she was stubborn and she was fiery and she was feisty, but, let's say lively, is lively.

[226] But, you know, I think if she had any doubts until it was something concrete, she would have just been dismissive because she wanted family so much.

[227] So you think maybe there were red flags for her and she pushed them away because to me. I think, potentially, I mean, I think to myself, even if there were some small of it, like, as they were, you know, I think that despite Kamal's unwaver, belief in his own daughter's story, he does understand.

[228] He understands why people might be afraid for these women to come home.

[229] But he also kind of says, that's not the point.

[230] The bigger point here is we don't know these women's culpability.

[231] So he says, let's bring them back and let's have due process applied before we turn our backs on these women, assuming that they're guilty.

[232] He says, this is what a country like Australia actually owes its citizens, whether they're guilty or not guilty, and right now, we just don't know.

[233] Basically, what he's saying is there are dangers, yes, with repatriating people, but there are also dangers with not.

[234] And that's why he's in Canberra, fighting for their right to come home.

[235] Hi, everyone.

[236] I'm a reporter with the New York Times.

[237] I'm Olivia.

[238] I'm a reporter with the New York Times.

[239] Nice to meet you, Livya.

[240] So I'm following Kamal around, office to office.

[241] It seems like at least some of these lawmakers empathetic to his plight.

[242] But it's not clear whether they have any power to actually change the situation.

[243] There were definitely no promises made.

[244] But there's this moment.

[245] He bumps into an MP in the hall, an old acquaintance.

[246] And this guy says, we've been discussing your issue at length this morning.

[247] This seems to energise Kamal.

[248] He gets excited.

[249] He thinks things might be about to change.

[250] Maybe government was in the process of reaching a decision.

[251] But then some time passes.

[252] And there's no news.

[253] And there's really nothing left to do there, but wait.

[254] So after the last meeting of the day, we leave.

[255] We don't drive back to Melbourne, where Kamal had been meeting with family, We drive to Sydney where he lives and where a whole other group of families are awaiting his news.

[256] Okay, we are just driving away from Parliament back towards Sydney.

[257] It's about a three -hour trip.

[258] It looks like at this point there's no news.

[259] On the drive, Kamal seems a little deflated, but he's still hopeful.

[260] Okay, we're a trappers.

[261] Oh, wow, there's the giant sheep.

[262] I sent it to the big marina.

[263] And then Kamal says we have to pull over to this place called Trappers.

[264] This was a big stop back in the day.

[265] They make the best vanilla slice, which is kind of like this puff pastry with custard inside, and he says this is the best vanilla slice in Australia.

[266] So we pull in, we walk inside, Kamal gets two vanilla slices, one for each of us, and we're eating, having a coffee.

[267] Each of us are just taking a moment, checking the news on our phone and suddenly Kamal is tapping the table trying to get my attention he points to his phone it's Mariam I know I know I know and yeah about the what why no that's not true that's not the information that we're getting that's not the information that we're getting so Kamal has the phone up to his ear we're in a loud cafe I can't hear Mariam on the other side but he's comforting her and he's calling her an affectionate name Okay, listen to me, listen to me I have had it confirmed to me from several different sources that the border crossing between Syria and Iraq is open and it's working So the...

[268] The women are just terrified that the Assad regime is going to take over the camp and that they'll be raped, tortured, killed and he's comforting her and he's telling her I was just in Parliament.

[269] Somebody told me they had a meeting this morning.

[270] There could still be a decision today.

[271] I'm doing my best.

[272] I'm doing my best.

[273] I can tell you that there was a cabinet meeting this morning.

[274] I think there is some movement, but we've not yet been informed.

[275] I am trying to get information as we speak and trying to get contacts and networks to give me some indication.

[276] The call goes on for some time, and it's clear even just from hearing the one side that Mariam is becoming increasingly friend.

[277] Okay.

[278] Believe me, we have said all come home.

[279] We are all very worried about that.

[280] We have been making the statements about that.

[281] She's heard that one of the Australian women in the camp is having her citizenship revoke and she's panicking.

[282] The government have told us and the information that we have is that three people have lost their citizenship and only three people have lost.

[283] Kamal does his best to calm her down.

[284] There's no confirmation.

[285] The second one is a woman.

[286] No confirmation.

[287] But at a certain point.

[288] I know that.

[289] But Boba, Boba, I don't think that's what you're facing.

[290] I don't think that's what you're facing, okay?

[291] But I know, Habibti, don't, Habibti, Raua -Khaelik, Habibti, Rau -Yah -Holik.

[292] They both start crying, and he puts her on speakerphone.

[293] It's clear that nothing he's saying is really consoling her.

[294] She's spinning through all of these different scenarios.

[295] And can I tell you, I was walking through the corridors of Parliament today, and people stopping me, shaking my hand, telling me, all the best.

[296] We hope you get your children back.

[297] Like strangers stopping me in the corridors of Canberra doing this.

[298] So finally he says to her, let me talk to my grandson.

[299] So she pulls him in and he's talking to his grandson and...

[300] Hamal's face just lights up.

[301] He's having this back and forth with his grandson.

[302] And after that, he talks to Mariam for a few more minutes.

[303] And the conversation ends.

[304] And we get back in the car, and Kamal puts on this 45 -minute song in Arabic.

[305] That he says is one of his favorites.

[306] And we're listening to it as we drive back to Sydney.

[307] In the days since Libya traveled to Canberra with Kamal, Turkey and the Syrian Kurdish forces declared a temporary ceasefire.

[308] But even if the ceasefire holds, the Australian government has said they would still consider it too risky to extract the families of ISIS fighters.

[309] Officials have said they would not be willing to put other lives in danger, to save the women and children.

[310] On Friday in Canberra, Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton spoke to reporters.

[311] They've been fighting in the name of a few people.

[312] an evil organization, he said.

[313] And there are consequences.

[314] Livia, I'm thinking back to where Miriam's story started and to Kamal saying that from a young age, she wanted to be part of a big family.

[315] And when she got a baby sister, they were very close.

[316] I'm just curious whether they have a relationship now.

[317] They do as much as they can, given the circumstances.

[318] You know, when I was in parliament with Kamal, we had this quiet moment and he showed me some pictures of Mariam in the camp and he told me about how like many of the women there she wanted to send something home for her family for her sister and so she collected these little bits of scrap metal things she could find and she made a ring for her sister and gave it to Kamal to take home with him and she also makes her this video and she says to her sister Thank you so much for all of you to say me, Habibi I actually look like I'm dying and I don't usually look inside a mirror so this is actually horrible I'm so sorry I look horrible I haven't looked in a mirror in ages and she's like but I miss you so much and I'm so excited to see you doing anything to catch up on in Shalah when I see you and I love you and please can you look after dad he's acting strong I don't know how strong he really is I love you I love you okay and I'm always my sister I have a lot of things to talk to you about and I see you and I have so so much to tell you I wish we could have talked more often I don't know why we never was able to speak properly but inchallah I'll be able to talk to you soon I love you thank you for everything everything everything you you're just them as well love you, and she's still there and she's still there she also left me your message which was absolutely heartbreaking for me to hear and I haven't played it again I only played it once but they're still there and we are here and I just need you night safe that's it for the daily I'm Michael Bavarro see you tomorrow